The heresie and hatred which was falsly charged upon the innocent justly returned upon the guilty giving some brief and impartial account of the most material passages of a late dispute in writing that hath passed at Philadelphia betwixt John Delavall and George Keith : with some intermixt remarks and observations on the whole. Keith, George, 1639?-1716. 1693 Approx. 57 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 12 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A47151 Wing K174 ESTC R14236 12937437 ocm 12937437 95819 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A47151) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 95819) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 717:14) The heresie and hatred which was falsly charged upon the innocent justly returned upon the guilty giving some brief and impartial account of the most material passages of a late dispute in writing that hath passed at Philadelphia betwixt John Delavall and George Keith : with some intermixt remarks and observations on the whole. Keith, George, 1639?-1716. Delavall, John, d. 1693. 22, [1] p. Printed and sold by William Bradford, Philadelphia : 1693. Signed: George Keith. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-06 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-07 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-07 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Heresie and Hatred which was falsly Charged upon the INNOCENT Justly returned upon the GUILTY . Giving some brief and impartial Account of the most material Passages of a late Dispute in Writing , that hath passed at Philadelphia betwixt John Delavall and George Keith , With some intermixt Remarks and Observations on the whole . Printed and Sold by William Bradford at Philadelphia , Anno Dom. 1693. Heresie and Hatred justly returned on the GUILTY , &c. NOtwithstanding the many tendious and vexatious Disputes and Controversies that have been among us of late concerning Doctrines and Principles of Religion , one Party affirming , and the other denying , yet at other times in publick , Thomas Ll●yd and Party , have endeavoured to cast a Mist before the People to make them believe , That there is no difference in Doctrine betwixt them and George Keith . But on the 11th of the 10th Month , 1692. being the first Day of the Week , in the Publick Meeting at Philadelphia before several Hundred People , John Delavall silenced that pretence , by accusing me of being guilty of Works of the Flesh , in two particulars , viz. Heresie and Hatred ; using this as an Argument why I should not be heard , but my Ministry stopt and denyed : The Heresie whereof he accused was , That I have been heard to affirm , That the Light within is not sufficient to Salvation without something else . This he undertook to prove to be a Heresie , but not from any one place of Scripture , but from Friends Books , and particularly from a passage in W. Penn's part of the Book called , The Christian Quaker , where he saith , The Talent is in it self sufficient . Next , he undertook to prove me guilty of Hatred , because , as he said , I had revi●ed Friends , and falsly accused them in divers things . But did not prove his Charge in any one particular . And the said John Delavall hath divers times accused me in publick Meeting , That he would prove me to be no Quaker , both from my own Books and the Books of Friends . To which I replyed , That to prove me to be guilty of Heresie , and to be no Quaker , he ought first to begin with the Scripture , and prove me guilty of Heresie from the Scripture , and then let him proceed to prove it from my own and Friends Books . Sam. Jenings replyed in the publick Meeting , We are not to prove it from Scripture , but from Books Friends ; for the Question betwixt us and G. K. is not , who is the best Christian , but who is the best Quaker . G. K. answered , If I am a good Christian I am a good Quaker , seeing the Quakers own themselves to be nothing else but true Christians . And also seeing , that we profess to own the Scriptures , and prefer them to all other Writings , ye ought to begin with the Scriptures , and from them prove me to be guilty of Heresie . John Delavall did further accuse me , That my Heresie and Error was in a Fundamental Doctrine of the Quakers , in saying , The Light within is not sufficient without something else . G. K. answered , I am glad to find the Controversie at last come to this plain issue , that ye and we differ in Doctrine , which ye would not acknowledge publickly before , but generally said , ye had nothing against my Doctrine , but against my Passion , &c. But now it plainly appeareth , that ye have against my Doctrine , and that ye and I differ Fundamentally . But however , John Delavall hath not proved it from any Friends Books , that I am guilty of Heresie ; for tho' William Penn saith in the Coristian Quaker , That the Talent or Light within is sufficient in it self to Salvation , yet he doth not say , it is sufficient without the Man Christ Jesus , and what he did and suffered for us on Earth , and without his present Intercession and Mediation for us in Heaven , which is that something else that I have affirmed to be necessary to our Salvation , together with the Light within , as one entire cause of our Salvation ; and I can and dare appeal to William Penn in the case , who I hope is a living man , Whether his words bear any such sence , as J. D. would impose upon them , to prove me guilty of Heresie in a Fundamental Doctrine of the Quakers ? And for his Charge of Hatred , I told them , That it was no sin nor evil to hate mens Errors and Hypocrisie , and to bear a zealou . Testimony against them ; nor is it any Reviling to use sharp words of Reproof against the Guilty , unless ye will prove that I have falsly accused you in any thing , which ye can never do , tho' they have falsly accused me , as I can prove ; and therefore both the Heresie and Hatred lyeth at your door . And ye have not been short in giving hard words against me , but have far exceeded me , as can well be proved . It may be further observed , that several first Days one after another John Delavall brought to the publick Meeting his Pocket full of Books , interrupting me in my Testimony , and read passages out of the same , pretending he would prove by my own Books , that I contradicted my former Doctrine . To which I have answered , That it was an act of incivility that both J. Delavall and his Brethren were guilty of , ( as well as a Breach of the chief Fundamental Law of this Province , that requireth , That no man be disturbed in the practice of his Religion , tho' of a differing Perswasion , if he profess to believe in Almighty God ) for them first to leave us , and then again to come in upon us , and in such a rude manner to interrupt and oppose me in my peaceable Testimony ( sometimes crying out , We have heard an old Priest handle such a subject better than thou does ; other times , Who does not believe this ? what need thou preach this to us ? And then again at other times , many of them at once calling out , This is airy Doctrine George , this is not according to antient Friends . ) though I have interrupted none of them , nor intend to do ; but on the contrary we sent a proposal to their Monthly Meeting , for them and us-to confer about it , and see if we could accomodate the matter so as to prevent so great Confusion ; and all the answer we could get , was , That the Spirit of the Lord could not be limitted ; thereby making the Spirit of God the Author of so great Confusion as hath happened amongst us , that a Person of Note , living in New-York Province coming into the Meeting , compared it to a Bull-baiting . And I then told them further , That seeing John Delavall did proffer to prove me to contradict my former Doctrine , and to be no Quaker , I was most willing , and did desire that a day might be appointed for a Publick Dispute , wherein he might have opportunity to prove his Charge , if he could . To which John Delavall positively assented , without any reservation , restriction , or proviso ; but sometime after being put in mind of it by me , in a Letter to him , he declined it , by making excuse , that he would dispute with me in publick , providing he had the consent of his Brethren . And on a First Day , some time after I pressing J. D. to perform his Promise , Thomas Lloyd said , He would not permit a publick Dispute , lest it should occasion a Tumult . But let the impartial Reader judge , whether this was not a meer Evasion , seeing they so constantly on a first day made Interruptions and Oppositions to me and my Testimony , which caused greater Confusion than ever was like to happen at a Dispute . Therefore seeing that they declined a Dispute , to prove their Charge , I writ a few lines to J. Delavall , That whereas he had charged me to be guilty of Heresie and Hatred , desired him to make good his Charge against me . In answer to which he writes a Letter , dated the 16 of 10 Month , 1692. in which he doth acknowledge ( but very mineingly ) that he had charged me with Heresie and Hatred , and doth positively say , [ This being a Difference in a Fundamental Doctrine ] withal promising to send in writing , what he had to say on the first head , viz. That the Light within as not sufficient without something else , which he calls Heresie . And in another Letter of his , bearing date the 3d of 11 Month , ( referring to his Paper he sent me the 24th of 10 Month , ) he saith , Wherein I have fully proved thee to differ in a Fundamental Doctrine from thy former , and other Friends Writings . And further to prove me guilty of Heresie , in the said Letter , he giveth his sence of the word Heresie , as intended by him , when mentioned in the publick Meeting . It is the same ( saith he ) as the Fathers ( so called ) defined it : Heresie is a mis-belief of some points of Faith , contrary to the Doctrine universally received in the Church . To this his Definition of Heresie , out of the Fathers ( so called ) as he alledged , I replyed to him , in a Letter bearing date the 2d of 12th Month , That his Definition of Heresie seemeth rather to be taken out of some Popish Writer , than any approved antient Fathers ( so called ) further adding , That the best way to know what Heresie is , is to examine it by the Spirit of Truth within , and the Testimony of the Scripture without , and to lay most weight on these two . But what hath been the universal Testimony of the Church in all Ages , or what it is at present , is far more hard and difficult in many things to determine , and too tedious to enquire into . But however , I doubt not but I have more the Consent of the Universal Church for me , than against me , in this particular . And in his said Paper , bearing date 24 of 10 Mo. 92. wherein he alledgeth , That he hath fully proved me to differ in a Fundamental Doctrine from my former and other Friends Writings , he spendeth most of his Paper , containing about a Sheet and a half in Writing , citing particular Testimonies out of mine and other Friends printed Books , and Particularly my Book of Universal Grace , pag. 7 , 3 , 4 , 18 , 56 , 83 , 94. and G. ● 's Book , called , The Mystery of the great Whore , Epist to the Reader , by E. B. & p. 19 , 20 , 21. and W. Penn in his part of the Christian Quaker , p. 36 , 85 , 86. and G. Whitehead in his part of the Cor. Quaker , pag. 13 , 31. and Rob. Barclay in his English Apology , printed 1678 , pag. 101 , 112 , 115 , & p. 96 , 97. To this I replyed in two Sheets of Writing , in a very Friendly way , in complyance with J. D's expectation , having said in his Paper , That he expected my Friendly Reply , wherein I tell him , that I have diligently read over again and again all these Testimonies collected by him , out of mine and other Friends Books , and have diligently weighbd and considered them , and find not the least inconsistency with them , and my late or present Doctrine , either in print or by word of mouth , nor with the Assertions he draweth from them , rightly understood ; As 1st , That this Light wherewithal every man is enlightened with , is Christ Jesus ; 2dly , That it is the very Grace of the Gospel , and Object of the Faith thereof ( viz. chiefly , as with respect to the second Ministration thereof , the which lyeth hid within the first ) 3dly , That by Belief in the Light , and Obedience thereunto , Salvation is obtained . And I further said , As I can freely appeal to such of them as are alive in the Body , whether their sense of their words bear J. D's Construction , so I can sincerely say , it is a gross mistake of his , the Construction he puts upon my words , cited by him out of my said Book of Universal Grace . And for a Proof that John Delavall had put a wrong Construction upon my words , as if my present Assertion , ( viz. That the Light within is not sufficient without the Man Christ Jesus , and his Death and Sufferings , and Mediation , &c. which is that something else ( as J. D. hath confessed ) is understood by me ) did contradict the Doctrine in that Book , I did refer for my Vindication to my said Book of Univers . Grace , 1st part stating the Controversie , N. 3 , 4 , 6. and ans . 10 25 Obj. To which J. D. hath not given any Reply . And because the said places to which I have referred for my Vindication , are so plain and evident . I earnestly recommend them to the Reader to weigh and consider at their full length , and only shall give a hint of things therein contained at present , for brevity's sake . In the 3d perticular of the first part , I treat largely of the Two inward Ministrations of the Light within , viz Law and Gospel , and that both in Jews and Gentiles universally , and how the Gospel lay hid within the Law , as within a Vail , even as the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies was within the outward Court But this Distinction given by me of the Two inward Ministrations of the Light , as laid down in my said Book that hath been in print about 22 Years past , J. D. accuseth as a Novelty , as also my other Distinction of Salvation begun and perfected , according to the first and succeeding measures of more Light and Grace , further to be given , sufficiently hinted at , N. 6. 1 part of said Book . And in the answer to Obje . 25. of said Book , I am so far from asserting the sufficiency of the Light within , so as to exclude the Man Christ , and the benefit of his outward Coming , Obedience , Death and Sufferings from having a part in our Salvation ( together with the Light within ) that I do expresly joyn them together , plainly affirming , That they are both sufficient and useful and necessary in their own kind and way , consummating , and being consummated in one another . It can hardly be construed to be inadvertency in J. D. but rather a winfull & deliberate Omission in him , thus to pass by what made so clearly to vidicate me , in my said Book , that so he might seem to have some Colour to pervert my words to a contrary sence from what was ever intended by me . And whereas J. D. hath said in his Paper , That he doth friendly intreat me , not to put a wrong Construction on his words , for accusing me of Heresie , as 〈◊〉 he and his Brethren did exclude the Man Christ Jesus from having any part in our Salvation ; and doth oft earnestly affirm , both in his first and second Paper , That neither he nor his Brethren exclude the Man-Christ from having a part in our Salvation . To this I did answer , in my first Paper , That seeing he doth blame my Assertion , as being a Heresie , That the Light within is not sufficient to Salvation without something else , he must needs hold the Antithesis , or Contradictory , viz. That the Light within is sufficient without any thing else , that is to say , in other equivolent Terms , without any thing [ beside ] [ more ] or [ other ] as the English Particle [ Else ] doth signifie : but this Assertion excludes wholly the Person of Christ , both the body , and Fullness of Light , Grace and Truth that dwelleth in him , and his Death and Sufferings , &c. all which are somwhat else , i. e some-what other , or beside , or more , than the measure of Light in us , tho' Christ within and without is still but one Christ . And I did inform or put him in mind , that Contradictory Propositions lie not betwixt two Particulars , as some and some , but betwixt one Particular and the other Universal , the one affirming and the other denying . And therefore for J. D. to say , The Light within is sufficient without some-what else , is no Contradiction , for the Light within is sufficient without Thousands of some things else , but yet not without any or every thing else , for then it would exclude the Man Christ , and his Death and Sufferings , from having any part in our Salvation . I further told him , That it could not be said , that the Man Christ was the Light in us , otherwise than by a figurative Speech of a Synecdoche or Netonyme or Allegory . And whereas John Delavall did mainly blame my Assertion , That the Light within is not sufficient without something else , i. e. the Man Christ Jesus , 1st . Because I said in my Book of Universal Grate , That the Light ( viz. within ) is the immediate Object of the Christian Faith : 2dly , That I said , It is inseperable from God and Christ , as the Beams of the Sun are inseperable from the Sun. To this I replyed , That I did not say , the Light within is the [ Only ] Object ; and tho' the Light within , and the Man Christ without , and the Fullness of Light that dwelleth in him , be inseperable one from another , yet the one is not the other ; for things may be inseperable , and yet the one not be the other , whereof I gave divers Instances , as Faith and Repentance are inseperable , yet Faith is not Repentance : Remission of Sin and Sanctification are inseperable , yet Sanctification is not Remission of Sin , but some-what else ; and Christs glorified Soul and Body are inseperable , yet his Body is not his Soul : The Godhead and Manhood of Christ are inseperable , yet the Godhead of Christ is not his Manhood : The Measure and Fullness are inseperable , yet the Measure is not the Fullness : The River and Ocean are inseperable , yet the River is not the Ocean : The Beams and the great Body of the Sun are inseperable , and yet the Beams are not the great Body of the Sun : Also , the glorified Saints in Heaven and Christ are inseperable , yet they are not Christ , but Christ is some-what else . Moreover , I told him in my former Paper , that G. F. E. B. and W. P. do all distinguish betwixt the Measure and Fullness in the Testimonies mentioned , withall citing a Passage in T. Ellwood's Book , called , The Foundation of Tythes shaken , pag. 238. saying , Nor do the Quakers ascribe Salvation to the following the Light within , but they ascribe Salvation to Christ Jesus , to whom the Light within leads those that truly follow it . And he hath another observable Passage , pag. 240. If any one expects Remission of Sins by any other way than the Death of Christ , he renders the Death of Christ useless . Thus T. Ellwood . And surely the Death of Christ is something else than the Light within . And W. Penn in ans . to Faldo , p. 192. saith , The Light within is not God , but of God. And neither R. Barclays words , cited by J. D. nor any others hold forth the sufficiency of the Light , without the Man Christ Jesus , that something eise that I always affirmed to be concerned in our Salvation , together with the Light within . And whereas J. D. in the last Leaf his first Paper layeth down six Heads , which he saith , he is willing to controvert with me . To this I replyed , that the four first of these Heads I will not controvert with him , for they are a part of my Testimony , and always owned by me , rightly understood ; and for the two last , I will readily controvert with him , after the Controversie about the Light is ended . And in my first Paper I did further inform J. D. That my assertion , viz. That the Light within is not sufficient without something else ; that something else being the Man Christ Jesus , and his Obedience , Death and Sufferings , Resurrection , Ascention and Mediation for us in Heaven , doth no wise infer the Light its being not sufficient ; and for J. D. to think it doth so infer , proceedeth from either his great Weakness or Inadvertency , not considering the Signification of such or the like enunciative Propositions , giving divers full Examples , and particularly he that saith , Man is not sufficient without the Grace of God , to work out his Salvation , doth not deny man to be sufficient or able to do it , with and by the help of Gods Grace ; and therefore , he who saith , the Grace of Christ or Light within is not sufficient to save us without the Man Christ , doth not deny the Grace and Light of Christ is sufficient , together with him . I further saying , That as God infinitely wise hath ordained divers concurring Natural Causes to produce one Natural Effect , all subordinate to him , the first and highest Cause ; so to effect our Salvation he hath ordained divers concurring Causes , some without us and some within us , and every one sufficient and able in their manner and way of working , to answer to the end and effect , all in Harmony together . And because J. D. in his former Papers had not stated aright the matter of Difference betwixt him and me , as concerning the sufficiency of the Light within to Salvation , therefore I did state my Perswasion concerning the sufficiency of the Light , and also concerning the Scriptures being sufficient to afford us words whereby to express our Faith in all matters of Christian Doctrine , in twelve several particulars . To which , as yet , J. D. hath sent no particular Reply ; therefore as to that the matter rests at present . And this is a brief account of the most material Passages in the first Paper that J. D. sent to me , and in the Reply that I made unto his said first Paper . In answer to my first Paper , which was writ in a very fair & friendly manner to John Delavall , he sendeth me a second Paper , by way of Reply , containing many bitter Expressions , unfriendly Reflections and false Accusations , too tedious here to relate , but which will sufficiently appear , if the Paper happen to be printed , most grosly mis-applying that place of Scripture to me , Ezek. 18. 24. as if I were turned a wicked man ; And why ? Because of my zealously opposing his and their Anti-christian Doctrine , and detecting their Hypocrisie , Ignorance and Errors , even as Friends in England were called wicked men for their opposing and detecting the Ignorance , Errors and Hypocrisie of their Opposers . To my former Reply , that I said , The Light , ( viz. within ) is not the [ Only ] Object of Faith , J. D. doth answer , in his second Paper , That little less is affirmed by me , pag. 6. where I blame our Adversaries , that they do not hold it ( viz. the divine Illumination of Christ within ) to be the immediate Object of the Christian Faith. To this I answered , in my 2d Paper , That to say the Light within is the immediate Object of the Christian Faith , is not to say , it is the Only Object of the Christian Faith , excluding the Man Christ Jesus , and his Death and Sufferings , Resurrection , Ascention , and Mediation for us in Heaven , which are owned generally by Friends , yea , and by J. D. though in Contradiction to himself , to be also the Objects of our Christian Faith , seeing he expresly granteth , That he and his Brethren do believe in the Man Christ Jesus , and citeth R. Barclay , saying , It is damnable Unbelief not to believe these things where declared . ☞ Note , R. B. in his printed Letter to H. Paets , a Dutch-man , doth distinguish betwixt the material and formal Object of Faith , granting that Christs Death and Sufferings , Resurrection , Ascention and Intercession , &c. with other parts of Christs Doctrine , are the material Object of Faith , but affirming , that the divine Revelation of the Light within is the formal Object thereof : And therefore if J. D. were not blinded with Prejudice , he would see there is not the least Inconsistency here . And tho' the word Object is not a Scripture word , yet it is used not only by R. Barclay , but by J. Burnet , see his Collection , printed 1691. in his Answer to Ja. Barry , pag. 212. where he says expresly , Therefore we expect he should inform in what Gospel he hath to preach to them Christ dyed not for , and what Object of Faith he hath to lay down for them to believe in ; for Faith must have an Object : Or whether they do not press it as a Duty upon all to believe ? and then let us know their Method of Distinction , who preach not the Gospel to every one ; for sure there can be no Gospel of Glad Tidings to them Christ dyed not for . Thus John Burnyeat : Where it is plain , that he understandeth Christs dying for all to be the Object of our Faith , and a Doctrine of the Gospel , as well as that he doth inwardly enlighten all , as it was of that Gospel which Paul preached , as it doth plainly appear from 1 Cor. 15. 1 , 23. Rom. 10. 8 , 9. 1 Cor. 1. 23 , 24 , 25. and many other places . And I put J. D. in mind how at the School-house Meeting , about 12 Months past , he brought the fore-cited place , Rom. 10. 9 , 8. in opposition to T. Lloyd , his Father-in-Law , to prove that it was not sufficient to Salvation , to believe only in the Light within , but to believe also that Christ dyed & rose again ; And to this , as to other things , I expect his particular Answer . And I say still , that Christs inwardly enlightening all , is a Doctrine of the Gospel , and the Object of our Faith , as well as that Christ dyed for all . But I was so far from denying Christs coming the Flesh , and his Death and Sufferings , to be any part of the Object of the Christian Faith , in that Treatise of Universal Grace , cited by J. D. that pag. 92. I particularly mention Christs Coming in the Flesh , his Miraculous Birth , his Doctrine , Miracles , Sufferings , Death , Resurrection , Ascention , &c. as being things of the Christian Faith and Religion , which the Light within brings us to own ; and the same upon the matter is confessed by J. D. in both his Papers : How then am I guilty of Heresie , for saying the same that J. D. saith ? To my saying , that J. D. his blaming my Assertion , as being Heresie , ( viz. That the Light within is not sufficient without something else ) doth oblige him to hold the Antithesis or Contradictory Assertion , That the Light within is sufficient without any thing else . J. D. Replyeth , That is but my Consequence , and none of his words . To which I replyed , That some affirm , they heard him say so , in so many words ; but suppose he did not say it , yet seeing he hath accused me of the former , the necessary & unavoidable Consequence of his words makes it to be his , and to deny this , is to be guilty of the greatest Trifflig and Non-sence that ever I knew in any pretending to common Reason . His scurrilous Reflection upon me , as abusing my School-Craft , as he calls it , I pass over , not valuing it , being conscious of my sincerity , and which I freely leave to the Impartial to judge . For a Proof that W. Penn layeth not our whole Salvation upon the Light within only , as sufficient without the Man Christ Jesus , I did cite W. P. in answer to J. Faldo , part 1. pag. 243. J. Faldo charging it upon the Quakers , That they expect to be saved by the Light within only . W. P. answers in behalf of the Quakers , This is a wicked Suggestion against us ; see also his following words . And as I said to J. D. in my 2d Paper , Now let the Impartial Reader judge , who hath any thing of common Reason , Whether by these words W. Penn doth not plainly declare his Mind , That we are not saved by the Light within without something else ? For as the word Only is exclusive , so are the words Without something else . And here let it be noted , that John Delavall finding that he could not make good his Charge against me , viz. his accusing me of Heresie for saying , The Light within is not sufficient without something else , he goeth about ( most sillily ) to change the state of the Question ; for whereas the state of the Question was , Whether the Light within was sufficient to Salvation without something else , viz. without the Man Christ Jesus , and his Death and Sufferings , and present Intercession for us in Heaven , he goeth about ( not so slyly as sillily ) quite to alter and change it to another Question , altogether different from the former , as Whether any can be perfectly saved & made perfectly happy without all knowledge and faith of the Man Christ Jesus without us , and of his Death and Sufferings , & c ? To which I have answered him in my second Paper , That these two are quite differing Questions ; for if this last should be granted , yet it still remaineth , that the Light within only , without the Man Christ Jesus , doth not save any ; for even many who do not know him , nor believe in him ( having some measure of sincerity under the first Ministration of the Light within them ) receive the benefit of his Death , and Sufferings , and Mediation ( by the general acknowledgment of all that ever I have formerly known of the People called Quakers ) at least in some measure to begin a good work in them , as is clear in the case of Cornelius , before he received the Knowledge and Faith of Christ crucified and raised again ; and therefore , as I have told J. D. he will sooner wash an Ethiopian until he be white , than he can prove me guilty of Heresie or Error , for affirming , The Light is not sufficient without something else , either according to Scripture or sound Friends . But to say , The Knowledge and Faith of Christ , both as he is God and Man , and as he dyed for our sins , and rose again for our Justification , and is our Mediator in Heaven , even the Man Christ Jesus , is necessary to finish and perfect the Salvation and Eternal Happiness of all that shall be Eternally saved , This doth no wayes derogate from the sufficiency of the Light within , for the Light within being God and Christ , is abundantly sufficient to reveal this Knowledge and Faith in all them who shall be saved , and that either without or with means , as God pleaseth , tho' in Gods ordinary way of working , he maketh use of outward means ; and therefore if any have not the Knowledge and Faith of Christ crucified , as outwardly , this doth no more prove , that the Light is not sufficient in it self , than if any have not the Faith and Obedience of the Light inwardly , doth prove that the Light is not sufficient ; for as J. D. hath confessed in his first Paper , Faith and Obedience are the blessed Effects produced by the sufficiency of this Light in all his true Followers ; So that Faith and Obedience , with respect to the Light , are not the Cause of its Sufficiency , tho' it Then only comes to be sufficient to us , when we believe in it , and obey it . And thus , what J. D. affirms with respect to the Light within , I affirm also , with respect to the Man Christ without us , as he dyed and rose again , and is our Intercessor in Heaven ; for , as not to believe in the Light within , is no argument of its Insufficiency , so not to believe in the Man Christ without us , is no argument that the Light within is not sufficient to mens Salvation universally , because the Light within being a real measure of the eternal Word , Christ Jesus , can as easily reveal the Faith of the Man Christ without , and of his Death and Sufferings , &c. as it can reveal the Faith of Christ within , both which J. D. doth acknowledge to be necessary to all such to whom it is preached or declared , for their Eternal Salvation . John Delavall's silly Taunt and Reflection , That I cause him not to staggar by my profound Logick , ( as he terms it ) I regard not , furd●r , ( as I told him in my 2d Paper ) but to take notice of his scoffing Spirit , more like Ishmael than a true Christian or true Minister of Christ : I used no profound Logick in the case , but one or two of the easiest and plainest Rules in that called Logick , belonging to the Rudiments of it , and as I told him , true Reason teacheth it , without all Art of Logick ; but J. D. in meddling with that he calleth my Logick , hath shewed his profound Ignorance in common Reason . His accusing me of Pride , Fury and Rage , I told him , is one of the Unclean Streams that flow from his Unclean Fountain ; & so I pass it , with other his scurrilous Reflections and false Accusations . I also told him , his positively charging me with that he calleth my late modelled Doctrine of the Revolutions , is a base and vile Forgery and Calumny , which I have sufficiently answered in my printed Treatise , called , Truth and Innocency , &c. I never made that ( vulgarly ) call'd the Revolutions , any matter of my Christian Faith , and no man living can justly say , that ever I did : I can defend my Christian Faith without the Doctrine of the Revolutions , as well as all other true Christians can , who are of the same Faith with me concerning the Necessity of the Knowledge and Faith of Christ crucified , to mens perfect Salvation . Nor hath the Doctrine of the two Ministrations , and of Salvation begun , and Salvation perfected , a dependance on the Revolutions , so called , whether true or false ; for what hath a dependance on another , is the Effect of that other ; but the two Ministrations of the Light within , and the Work of our Salvation , both in its beginning and finishing , have no other Cause but God , and Christ , and the Spirit , and therefore wholly depend thereupon . And I freely at any time proffer to defend my Perswasion and Faith concerning the Two Ministrations , and Salvation begun and finished , without running either to the Papist's Purgatory , or the Hypothesis of the Revolutions ; and let John Delavall or any of his Associates , try their strength , whether they can drive me , by the force of their Arguments to any such pinch or strait , as he doth basely infinuate against me in his 2d Paper . And his Accusations in this particular do not only strike against me , but G. F. E. B. W. P. all whom I can prove to hold the distinction of two inward Ministrations of the Light , and two states of Men , answering thereunto , the first of which G. F. calleth , The state of the first Adam , which he was in before he fell , which he calleth , A state of danger , where he may fall again , but to come to Christs stature , and to him before the World began , who is first and last , beginning and ending , such shall know a state that will never fall ; see his printed Epistle , 1666. directed , To be read in all the Assemblies of the Righteous ; and concerning this second state he saith further , Christ that never fell is a state beyond Adam , and he is to be heard and folowed that never fell , and in him are People to sit down , who is the Rest , and Peace , and Life , who destroyeth the Devil and his Works , and maketh an end of Sin ; now this being manifest and known in all , then the Lamb is known to have the Victory . And a little after , speaking of this second state , he saith , And here , as you live in the Seed , Christ Jesus , your Election you know before the World began , and Reprobation since the World began . And these two states W. Penn plainly distinguisheth in his part of the Chr. Quaker , calling the one that of the Law , the other that of the Gospel , the one that of a Servant , the other that of a Son ; and E. Burrough saith , pag. 56. of his Works in folio , The Law must have its thorow Operation , before the Gospel be witnessed . It is therefore manifest that John Delavall is greatly Ignorant , as in the holy Scriptures , so in the Quakers Principles , so to fault my Testimony concerning the two Ministrations , and Salvation begun and Salvatiom finished , which perfect Salvation ( according to G. F. ) belongeth only to the second State and Ministration . And whereas J. D. in his 2d Paper maketh an Essay to show , That Propositions may be Inconsistent , that are not strictly Contradictory the one to the other , giving an Instance in four Examples . To this I have answered , That all these are Contradictory , being either betwixt definite Particulars , or such as contain necessary matter of Truth and Falshood , and therefore are strictly Contradictory ; but Propositions betwixt Indefinite Particulars , as some and some , are never Contradictory nor Contrary , nor have the least Inconsistency , when the matter of them is not any necessary Truth and Falshood , but are both True , as is the present case in our Debate ; for as it is true , That the Light within is [ Not ] sufficient without something else , that something else being the Man Christ Jesus , and his Death and Sufferings , and Intercession for us in Heaven , so is it also true , That the Light within [ Is ] sufficient without thousands of some other things else . And if Jo. Delavall think not himself obliged ( by the Law of Dispute ) to show the Antithesis or strict Contradictory Proposition held by him , ( which is most proper ) if he have not renounced all use of common Reason , he must show the Proposition that is ( if not Contradictory ) at least contrary or inconsistent therewith ; but it hath none other than that I mentioned to him in my first Paper , viz. That the Light [ is ] sufficient without [ Any ] thing else ; and this he must needs hold , unless he resolveth wholly to unman himself ; for it is the nature of all Indefinite particular Propositions , that they have no contrary but what is strictly Contradictory , as is our present Case . And in my 2d Paper I put him in mind of the common Proverb , Let not the Shoe-maker go beyond his Last , not that I upbraid him with his Ignorance in the Art of Logick , but for his Pedantick Vanity , that he would seem to know what he is as ignorant of as a Child . To his saying , We never differed about the meaning of the Particle [ Else ] I told him , he is grosly dis-ingenuous ; for he knoweth the contrary in his Conscience ; and he may remember , how that not long ago , when I was declaring in the publick Meeting , That the measure of Christs Light in us , was not sufficient without the Fullness , that dwells in the Man Christ Jesus , and the Fullness was something more than the Measure , Sam. Jenings , in the publick Meeting interrupted me , most uncivilly , as he hath at other times done , ( tho' I have never interrupted him , nor any of them ) and he cryed out , Thou sayest , George , the Fullness is something [ more ] but is it something [ else ? ] To which I answered , Yea , it is something else ; and therefore if J. Delavall had any thing of shame-facedness left in him , he might be asham'd of his Dis-ingenuity and dissimulation in this particular . To his blaming me for saying , The Man Christ was the Light in us , was a figurative Speech of Synecdoche , Netonyme or Allegory . I answered him , That seeing he blames me for this , according to him , the Man Christ is within us , wholly , both Soul and Body , without all figure , with all his Fullness ; which is as gross a Doctrine as the Papists is concerning the Man Christ being in the consecrated Cake . And I told him , that Christ , as God , was in us , without a figure , but not as Man , without some figure or figurative Speech of Synecdoche , Netonyme or Allegory . And as to his Citation out of one of my Books , That where it is said in Scripture , that Rock was Christ , I denyed it to be a Figure ; my sence is plain , being in opposition to them who say , That Rock was not really Christ , but only a Type or Figure of him : Whereas I affirmed , That Christ was really with the Church in the Wilderness , and not only Typically & Symbolically or Figuratively ; and so is Christ really now with and in his Church . And he blames me for giving some Examples of the Figure Synecdoche , used in common Speech , as if I did apply them to Christ in us ; but I made no Application , and yet if I had , the Scripture , I told him , useth the like ; for what is to be understood in Scripture by the Revelation of the Lords Hand or Arm in us , but the measure of his Life ? And as in Scriptare , Christ is compared to a Garment that the Saints put on , and is their Cloathing from Head to Feet , so he is said to put them on ; and Shoes in Scripture have a spiritual signification , as in Cant. 7. 1. How Beautiful are thy Feet with Shoes ! And the Prodigal at his Return to his Fathers House , had Shoes put upon him , Luke 15. 22. And it was the Life of Christ that cloathed the Prodigal at his Return to his Fathers House , from his Head to his Feet ; and therefore the Scripture useth the Figure of Shoes in a very high sence , tho' this is as a strange Doctrine to John Delavall's profound Ignorance , who yet professeth himself to be a Master in the Israel of his Ignorant Associates and Hearers , who ( belike ) is the best and ablest they can find to controvert with G. K. to prove him a Heretick , for his sound Christian Doctrine , well warranted both by Scripture , and sound Quakers , yea , and all Christians every where ; for let all Professions in Christendom be searched , and it will not be found that ever any of them ( owned to be true Christians ) condemned it as an Heresie or Error , to say , The Light within is not sufficient to Salvation without something else , to wit , the Man Christ Jesus ; for as I told J. D. I never knew any hold Salvation by the Light within only , excluding the Man Christ Jesus , but Jeffery Bullock , whom G. VVhitehead has well refuted , see his book , call'd , Judgment fixed , pag. . where he says , Thou who seest not the Consistency betwixt Salvation by the Light within , and the Man Christ Jesus , art gone from the Light into Imaginations ; and so ( by G. W's Judgment ) are John Delavall and his Brethren that call it Heresie to say , The Light within is not sufficient to Salvation without the Man Christ Jesus ; wherein John Delavall and his Apostate Brethren fall in with Jeff. Bullock , for proof of which see the Judgment of their Monthly Meeting at Philadelphia , that cleareth T. Fitzwater and condemneth me , for saying , The Light is not sufficient without something else , which we have caused to he printed , with our Answer to it . Now I do boldly say , these men are fallen from the Fundamental Principle of the Quakers in this very particular , and are guilty of Heresie themselves , and yet would lay their Brat ( Whore like ) at my door , but I return it to him and them . And notwithstanding that John Delavall hath made an absolute and positive Appeal to antient Friends in Old England , to determine in this case , I cannot easily be perfwaded , that after they have fully heard the Case truly stated betwixt J. D. and me , that ever they will approve his Doctrine , but on the contrary , if they hold to their former Principles , as I am charitable they do , they will condemn it , and blame his so medling , and all them that adhear to him , notwithstanding of his Fawning and Flattery , whereby he seeketh to have their favour for his professed Subjection to their Determination , which if it prove a Contradiction to what he at present thinketh is the dictate of the Infallible Spirit in himself , it shall be seen what manner of Person he is , and how unfit to teach others , that is not truly taught himself in one of the first Principles of the Christian Doctrine . And notwithstanding his fawning to have favour with Friends in England , he could not do a worse thing to render Friends Odious , both in England , and every where else , to assert it as the Quakers Principle , To be a Heresie and Error in a Fundamental Doctrine , to say , The Light within is not sufficient without something else , that something else ( as confessed by him ) being the Man Christ Jesus without us , and his Death and Sufferings , and Intercession ; for if the generality of Professors in Christendom believe this to be the Quakers Doctrine , there cannot be a more mischievous Stumbling block laid in their way , to hinder People generally fróm joyning in Society with them . Therefore I hope God will put it into the hearts of faithful Friends in England , and else-where , zealously to withstand this most pernicious Anti-christian Doctrine of J. Delavall and his Associates , that say , It is a Heresie to assert ( this sound Christian Doctrine ) That the Light within is not sufficient to save men , without the Man Christ without us ; for if fo , then either there is no Man Christ without us , or he is no Saviour to us at all , and hath only the bare and empty Title of a Saviour , to wit , the Man Jesus of Nazareth . And tho' J. D. hath again and again asserted , That by his so accusing me , he doth not exclude the Man Christ Jesus in the Outward , from having a part in our Salvation ; yet who can believe him , but he that can believe the greatest Contradiction , which no man ever can do , that has not lost his common Sense and Reason , and is not become a Brute in Understanding . Beside , if he doth not exclude him from having a part in our Salvation , as neither do I , but include him , then in what part of my Assertion lodgeth the Heresie , that he hath charged upon me , for saying , The Light is not sufficient without something else , I confessing , that by something else , I neither understand Humane Learnning , nor the Letter of the Scripture , nor outward Preaching , as absolutely and universally necessary , but the Man Christ Jesus ? And as great a Contradiction is it in J. D. to blame me for charging him , That he holdeth the Measure to be sufficient without the Fullness ; for if he holds not this , he must needs hold , That the Light within is not sufficient without the Fullness , that is something else than the measure of the Light within , or then he must hold two Contradictory Propositions to be false , as thus , It is false to say , The Light is [ Not ] sufficient without the Fullness , And It is false to say , The Light [ is ] sufficient without the Fullness . Which is an absolute Contradiction to all common Reason of Mankind ; and I do solemnly say , that of all the Adversaries I ever had to do with in Dispute , I never met with a more Ignorant or more Unreasonable Adversary . And tho in a Letter to me ( wherein he is concerned with some others ) he falsly chargeth me , as being either Crased , &c. I appeal to all Impartial Readers of common Reason , Whether ever they heard or knew a man that seemeth more Crased than he . And to me it seemeth a Judgment of God upon him , to be so bewildered and confounded in his common Sense and Reason as a man , for daring to oppose so great a Christian Truth asserted by me , a poor Servant of the Lord , and to call it Heresie , he having signally , and more than ordinary appeared but of late to joyn with me in the same Testimony , as I told him in my former Paper , how by his charging me with Heresie , he had unministred himself . To which he returns not any thing of sollid Answer , but instead thereof a silly jest , not worth mentioning And thus the Scripture is fullfilled in him , Because they received not the Truth in Love , God gave them up to strong Delusions , to believe Lyes . To his saying , in his second Paper to me , My Answer , that things which are inseperable , yet are distinct , giveth me no Relief . I answered him , I need no Relief in the Case , my Examples were proper and pertinent , as that Faith and Repentance are inseperable , and yet we are not saved by Faith without Repentance , which he in his Ignorance laboureth to render Ridiculous , by the Addition of his own words , making them a Tautology . But he altogether passeth by my Example how Christs Godhead and Manhood are inseperable ; and yet it is most congruous and proper to say , The Man Christ cannot save us without his Godhead , which Christ taught himself , expresly saying , I can do nothing of my self , i. e. without my Father . Also , it doth no more infer that I deny the sufficiency of the Light within because I say it is not sufficient without the Man Christ without us , than it inferreth , that he that saith , John Delavall is not a Man without his Soul , denyeth J. D. to be a Man ; Or , J. D. is not sufficiently honest without honest dealing , denyeth J. D. to be sufficiently honest ; Or , because Rich. Hubberthorn said , Christ is not Christ without God , that Christ is not Christ ; see his Collection , pag. 29. As for his other Collections of Testimonies out of mine and other Friends Books , in his second Paper , added to these in his former , as I said before , I find none of them inconsistent with my present Doctrine , and if he think they do , I shall freely consent to it , if he please , that he may expose them to the World in Print , or any other Papers he hath sent me , that so Impartial Readers may judge betwixt us . To his charging me , with Gratifying some ill affected to the Government , and my Contentious Behaviour in Church and State ; I have answered him , His Accusation i● grosly false and malitious , and I reject it as such ; I have no way medled with the Government , but have born my faithful Testimony to Friends antient Principle , against the use of outward Weapons . It is no new thing for innocent men to be charged with being Enemies to Government , by men of his and their Spirit and Stamp ; so were Friends charged in old England , at their first appearance , and particularly G. F. and so were the Protestants in Germany , and else-where , by the Papists . In a third Paper I sent John Delavall , in answer to his Letter , bearing date the 3d of the 11 Month , I did argue with him at great length , That if because Christ without and Christ within are inseperably one Christ , therefore it may be said ( according to him ) that it is sufficient to preach Christ within ; as he and many of his Brethren argue , and that it is a Heresie to say , The Light within is not sufficient without something else , viz. the Man Christ Jesus . By the same Argument , It is sufficient to preach Christ without , and it is a Herefie to say , The Man Christ is not sufficient to Salvation without something else , viz. the Light within . And therefore by John Delavall and his Brethrens way of Argument , all these who have only preached Christ without , have been in the right , and all Friends who have blamed them , for not preaching Christ within , are blame-worthy ; Why ? Because Christ within and Christ without are inseperably one Christ . But to this , and many other things in my three Papers , I have received no Return . And as I have told him , I desire not further to Dispute with him thus in private , that is to little purpose , but am willing to commit to publick View , partly what is already past betwixt us , or what may further pass , reserving some other weighty things , I sent him in my former Answer , to another occasion , as I may have Convenience . In the mean time let it be remembred , that he hath not brought one place of Scripture , in all his Papers , whereby to convince me , that I am guilty of Heresie in the matter he accuseth me . And seeing the matter is come to this plain Issue , that they have now publickly charged me and my Friends joyned with me , of being Guilty of Heresie , which formerly they did rather whisper and mutter in Corners , and that it now openly appeareth in the face of the World , that they accuse that to be Heresie , which is a Fundamental Doctrine of the Christian Faith , received , as we can prove , by Geo Fox , George Whitehead , William Penn , and the best of Friends , as well as by all Christians in the whole World , it evidently appeareth , and most necessarily followeth , that the Heresie is theirs , and they are Hereticks , and therefore our Seperation from them is just , and is a necessary Duty , we having oft admonished them before , in private Conferences and Meetings , the Scripture saying , An Heretick , after the first and second Admonition , Reject . And thus having cleared my self of Heresie , the Hatred ( no more than the Heresie ( he sought to fix on me ) doth not at all belong to me , and therefore I return both upon him , as his Due , until he Repent , which I can truly say , I sincerely wish and desire . George Keith . THE END . The Printer's Advertisement . THat notwithstanding the various Reports spread concerning my refusing to Print for these that are George Keith's Opposers , These are to signifie . That I have never refused , but often proffe●ed to Print any thing for them , and do now again signifie , that if John Delavall or any other of his Brethren have any thing to print , I am most willing to do it for them ; not that I want to beg their Work , I need it not , but to leave them without Excuse , that if they be any way wronged or falsly charged by what is published in Print to the World , they may have equal priviledge to Vindicate themselves as Publickly ; though I have little cause to make this Offer to them , considering their many Abuses to me . W. B.