profile 2.p65


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The Process SyllabusThe Process SyllabusThe Process SyllabusThe Process SyllabusThe Process Syllabus,  (Breen 1989)
as its name suggests,  is a ‘process plan’
that  tries to ser ve the joint creation and
implementation of a syllabus by providing
a framework for planning and action that
should emerge from decisions jointly made
by teachers and learners during the
classroom learning experience. Due to its
nature, it goes beyond a “propositional”
syllabus like the ones known as Functional
or Task-based . Therefore, the Process
Syllabus, providing a plan and a bank of
resources, and requiring regular reflective
and formative evaluation, facilitates the
learners’  creation of  their own syllabus
in an on-going and adaptive way.

ELIZABETH RODRÍGUEZELIZABETH RODRÍGUEZELIZABETH RODRÍGUEZELIZABETH RODRÍGUEZELIZABETH RODRÍGUEZ::::: MikMikMikMikMike, coulde, coulde, coulde, coulde, could
you please, give the reasons why a teacheryou please, give the reasons why a teacheryou please, give the reasons why a teacheryou please, give the reasons why a teacheryou please, give the reasons why a teacher
m i g h t  c o n s i d e r  a d o p t i n g  a  P r o c e s sm i g h t  c o n s i d e r  a d o p t i n g  a  P r o c e s sm i g h t  c o n s i d e r  a d o p t i n g  a  P r o c e s sm i g h t  c o n s i d e r  a d o p t i n g  a  P r o c e s sm i g h t  c o n s i d e r  a d o p t i n g  a  P r o c e s s
Syllabus?Syllabus?Syllabus?Syllabus?Syllabus?

MICHAEL PETER BREENMICHAEL PETER BREENMICHAEL PETER BREENMICHAEL PETER BREENMICHAEL PETER BREEN: I think there
are four main ones. The first one is that I am
assuming the teacher is a teacher of language
and therefore, language is the subject matter,
One of its key characteristics is the negotiation
of meaning and one of the objectives that most
language teachers will have is to enable
students to communicate and therefore,
negotiate and create meaning with other people.

A CONVERSATION  WITH

MIKE BREEN1

InterInterInterInterInter view carview carview carview carview carried out by Elizabeth Rodríguezried out by Elizabeth Rodríguezried out by Elizabeth Rodríguezried out by Elizabeth Rodríguezried out by Elizabeth Rodríguez22222
Foreign Languages Department, Universidad Nacional de Colombia

M i c h a e lM i c h a e lM i c h a e lM i c h a e lM i c h a e l
PPPPPeter Breen,eter Breen,eter Breen,eter Breen,eter Breen,
T . C e r t . E d .
(London), B.A.
(Lancaster), M.A.
(Lancaster). He
has published on
a range of issues

within English language education. In addition
to contributing to a number of edited
collections, he has published in Applied
Linguistics, Studies in Second Language
Acquisition and several overseas journals. His
current interests are the psychology of language
learning, the process of interpretation, and the
development of courses in English Language.

The question is: How, in the methodology in
the classroom and how people work together
in the classroom, can the negotiation of
meaning and genuine communication be
encouraged? One way I see this happening is
that people communicate together, initially
maybe in the mother tongue, but certainly as
the work progresses more and more in the
language being learnt, they negotiate about
how the work should be done and who should
do the  work and  so on  and so  forth. That is,
they negotiate and communicate over the
decisions that have to be made in order for the
work to proceed in that classroom group. The

1 Note from the director: Given the importance of Process Syllabus in Curriculum Development, it was decided to include the
complete text of the interview. It is hoped that it will contribute to our enlightenment and understanding of process as a means to improve
our teaching practices.

2 This interview was carried out at the University of Lancaster in 1989.



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60PROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILE

kinds of decisions that identify a framework.
That’s one reason, negotiation of domain ;
therefore,  why not also  define  the  means of
achieving the work in the classroom ?. Secondly,
what happens to a normal syllabus ... an
external syllabus? Either one that is presented
to teachers by the institution or a syllabus
hidden within a textbook. No   class   follows
the syllabus. And no class does everything the
syllabus asks it to do. Why ? Because the teacher
reinterprets the syllabus for her or his group of
learners and the learners in turn reinterpret the
syllabus against their own personal agendas,
their own personal
syllabuses. So a second
reason would be that
people working from any
syllabus, a content
syllabus, are going to
reinterpret that syllabus
in terms of their own
learning preferences, their
own learning stages and
so on and so forth. So, all
syllabuses are
reinterpreted. Sometimes,
privately, but sometimes,
also, in a public discussion
in the classroom. So, an
external content syllabus,
a syllabus about aims and a syllabus about
content, is made redundant, it is reworded and
turned into the working syllabus of the
classroom group and this is often done by
accident, often in an unconscious and
unpredictable way. I feel there is a need for the
classroom group to be explicit and to go
through the process of designing in public, their
syllabus rather than struggling through an
externally imposed syllabus that they are going
to change in any case.Then, The Process

Syllabus is, therefore, one means for enabling
teachers and learners together, to negotiate and
construct together as they go along, their
external syllabus or to use an external syllabus
as  a starting point to negotiate themselves
through that syllabus. So, that’s the second
reason: learners and teachers reinterpret any
syllabus and the PS 3 is a way for them to do
that in a more public and confident way. The
third reason is the sort of problems  teachers
face in the classroom. I have worked with lots
of teachers over the years, and one of the major
issues that they see as a professional concern is

the management of the
classroom group, and the
kinds of problems they
have when looking after
classroom groups. And
so, I see the PS as one
solution to a whole range
of classroom management
problems the teachers
typically have in their
lives. And in essence,
what the PS does is to say:
‘Look, classroom
management is not just my
responsibility as a teacher,
it is our responsibility as a
classroom group, and we

have equal responsibilities to make sure things
work well’ 4. So, a PS is a way of sharing
classroom management with the learners, for
whom the classroom exists after all. So,
decisions about who should do what? What
should be done? and so on and so forth,
instead of becoming just the teacher ’s
problem, becomes the whole group’s problem.
That’s the third reason: managing the
classroom and the kind of problems the
teacher has. My questions are: Why should the

The PrThe PrThe PrThe PrThe Processocessocessocessocess
Syllabus  is oneSyllabus  is oneSyllabus  is oneSyllabus  is oneSyllabus  is one

means formeans formeans formeans formeans for
enabling teachersenabling teachersenabling teachersenabling teachersenabling teachers
and learners toand learners toand learners toand learners toand learners to
negotiate  andnegotiate  andnegotiate  andnegotiate  andnegotiate  and

constructconstructconstructconstructconstruct
together  as theytogether  as theytogether  as theytogether  as theytogether  as they

go alonggo alonggo alonggo alonggo along

3 My Abreviation
4 My italics and  quotaions to refer to possible interactions between the interviewee and language teachers and learners.



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teacher be the only person who has an opinion
on this problem ? Why should the teacher be
the only person who tries to solve it ?  I think
it’s humanly impossible that teachers on their
own can do this. So, why not share it ? And
the fourth and final justification, I think, for
the PS, is the whole notion of learner
responsibility. One of the major things that
teachers keep saying to me is:  ‘We have
unmotivated learners’ or ‘Our learners don’t
participate as much as we’d like them to’ or
‘Our learners are rather immature and haven’t
approached their learning of the language’
‘They don’t take responsibility’. So, you need
a means whereby sharing responsibility
becomes more public so that learners will take
on more overt responsibilities for themselves
and, very important this, for the group of
people around them. They are not only
responsible in their classroom for their own
learning but, also, for seeing themselves as
responsible for the success of the learning of
the other people in the classroom group. So,
the fourth reason would be to encourage and
to mobilize learners’ responsibility.

E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.: MikMikMikMikMike, I remember during a forume, I remember during a forume, I remember during a forume, I remember during a forume, I remember during a forum
that you said the PS was not exactly athat you said the PS was not exactly athat you said the PS was not exactly athat you said the PS was not exactly athat you said the PS was not exactly a
s y l l a b u s ,  t h a t  i t  w a s  n o t  e v e n  a ns y l l a b u s ,  t h a t  i t  w a s  n o t  e v e n  a ns y l l a b u s ,  t h a t  i t  w a s  n o t  e v e n  a ns y l l a b u s ,  t h a t  i t  w a s  n o t  e v e n  a ns y l l a b u s ,  t h a t  i t  w a s  n o t  e v e n  a n
apprapprapprapprapproach. Howoach. Howoach. Howoach. Howoach. How, in essence,  would you, in essence,  would you, in essence,  would you, in essence,  would you, in essence,  would you
define it?define it?define it?define it?define it?

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.: In essence, it’s a framework for
decision-making in the classroom.
So, in a way, it’s a kind of plan for methodology.
I use the word Syllabus because syllabuses are
something that people have a lot of interest
in and people understand a syllabus to mean
a plan for what has to be done in joint teaching
and learning. So I adopted the word Process
Syllabus because a PS is a plan for what has to

be done in teaching and learning but not in
terms of content, not in terms of what has to
be achieved, in terms of the language or
whatever, not in terms of what subject matter
we should work on but in terms of procedure,
ways of working:Who will do what? When and
on what?  Why should they do it? Those kinds
of decisions are made covertly by the teacher
quite often in a lesson plan or as they go along
in a lesson. So, SyllabusSyllabusSyllabusSyllabusSyllabus is a useful word
because it comes with the notion of a plan for
what is to be done in joint teaching and
learning. But the PS focuses much more on
action and on decision-making. So, in a way, I
suppose a more accurate description would be
a kind of ‘Decision-making F‘Decision-making F‘Decision-making F‘Decision-making F‘Decision-making Framework’ramework’ramework’ramework’ramework’5.
But, within a PS, of course, we will have sets
of activities and sets of tasks,  a bank of
activities and tasks which will be partly pre-
planned ; there may be sets of textbooks that
people would use as one resource, the usual
sorts of materials would be in that classroom ;
not just one set but several sets, there would
be dictionaries and grammars and tapes and
that sort of thing. But, I think the important
thing is that these activities and tasks should
be selected and chosen, as things progress,
by learners, either in small groups or learners
in the whole class sometimes, or learners
individually at other times. That is, the
activities and tasks and the materials that are
there, the decision as to  Who should useWho should useWho should useWho should useWho should use
t h e m  .  W h e n  t h e y  s h o u l d  u s e  t h e m .t h e m  .  W h e n  t h e y  s h o u l d  u s e  t h e m .t h e m  .  W h e n  t h e y  s h o u l d  u s e  t h e m .t h e m  .  W h e n  t h e y  s h o u l d  u s e  t h e m .t h e m  .  W h e n  t h e y  s h o u l d  u s e  t h e m .
How long they should spend working onHow long they should spend working onHow long they should spend working onHow long they should spend working onHow long they should spend working on
them. What they seek to get out of itthem. What they seek to get out of itthem. What they seek to get out of itthem. What they seek to get out of itthem. What they seek to get out of it6.....
That’s what the PS is about. So, it’s a plan for
decision-making. It’s a framework in which
teachers and learners can jointly negotiate and
decide on what they are doing and what they
are achieving or what sort of difficulties they
have, as the diagram suggests7.

5 My emphasis.
6 My emphasis.
7 See diagram: “The Element of a Process Syllabus”



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ELEMENT   1ELEMENT   1ELEMENT   1ELEMENT   1ELEMENT   1

Who does what ? With who ? To what Purpose ?
On what Subject Matter ? With what Resources ?
When and for how long ? How is it to be done ?

ELEMENT  2ELEMENT  2ELEMENT  2ELEMENT  2ELEMENT  2

                               Agreed upon as the An agreed plan of Aims and Content
                              Working Contract (Possibly as a synthesis  of an external
                              of the classroom group syllabus & the negotiated purposes

 and subject matter of the classroom
                              (Changes over time) group.Changes over time)

ELEMENT  3ELEMENT  3ELEMENT  3ELEMENT  3ELEMENT  3

To be selected from as appropriate
to decisions agreed at Elements 1 & 2.

ELEMENT    4ELEMENT    4ELEMENT    4ELEMENT    4ELEMENT    4

                                         To be selected  and undertaken for the achievement
                                         of a chosen activity . Tasks are the focused
                                        teaching-learning work  of the classroom group.

ELEMENT   5ELEMENT   5ELEMENT   5ELEMENT   5ELEMENT   5

Evaluation  of the outcomes from an activity and its tasks ;
both the achievements AND the difficulties.
Involving reflection on the appropriateness of
decisions made at 1  &  2 with the view to adapt-
tation  wherever necessary.

©©©©©  M.P. Breen , 1989

Key Characteristics
A framework for planning and action during classroom language learning.
A Process Syllabus emerges from decisions jointly made by teacher and learners.

Involves the on-going complilation of a bank of activities and (entailed ) tasks to beselected from on
the basis of decisions made.

Each  element relates to the others ; element 1 shaping the actual nature of those below it.  A Process
Syllabus  requires regular reflective and formative evaluation. This enables a crucial cycle of refinement
from element 5  back to 1 and through   to 5 again.

THE ELEMENTS OF A PROCESS SYLLTHE ELEMENTS OF A PROCESS SYLLTHE ELEMENTS OF A PROCESS SYLLTHE ELEMENTS OF A PROCESS SYLLTHE ELEMENTS OF A PROCESS SYLLABUSABUSABUSABUSABUS

DECISIONS FOR CLASSROOM LANGUAGE LEARNING

WORKING PROCEDURE (S)
IN THE CLASSROOM GROUP

PARTICULAR CONTENT SYLLABUS
OF THE CLASSROOM GROUP

ALTERNATIVE ACTIVITIES

ALTERNATIVE TASKS

REFLECTIVE AND FORMATIVE EVALUATION



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E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:  MikMikMikMikMike, considering that a pre, considering that a pre, considering that a pre, considering that a pre, considering that a processocessocessocessocess
can be more important than a product,can be more important than a product,can be more important than a product,can be more important than a product,can be more important than a product,
c o u l d  y o u  p l e a s e  e x p l a i n  h o w  t h i sc o u l d  y o u  p l e a s e  e x p l a i n  h o w  t h i sc o u l d  y o u  p l e a s e  e x p l a i n  h o w  t h i sc o u l d  y o u  p l e a s e  e x p l a i n  h o w  t h i sc o u l d  y o u  p l e a s e  e x p l a i n  h o w  t h i s
f r a m e w o r k  e v o l v e d  ?  W h a t  a r e  i t sf r a m e w o r k  e v o l v e d  ?  W h a t  a r e  i t sf r a m e w o r k  e v o l v e d  ?  W h a t  a r e  i t sf r a m e w o r k  e v o l v e d  ?  W h a t  a r e  i t sf r a m e w o r k  e v o l v e d  ?  W h a t  a r e  i t s
origins?origins?origins?origins?origins?

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.:  For me, it began as a good idea
when working with a group of teachers in
Europe over quite a long period of time.
When we first began Teacher Training we
intended to train people very much through
providing them with theory
and evidence

from research and getting
them to evaluate designed
materials ; what I would call
the traditional ways of training
teachers. And over a period
of time, thanks primarily to
their feedback and their
feedback on their classrooms,
we decided that the key thing
worth trying was to bring the
classroom much more into
the training, to get the
teachers to bring their
experiences back from their
classroom, to do research in
their own classrooms and to
report back to us in the
teacher training workshops.
From that process, which took
about a good few years
working with different groups of teachers in a
particular European country, from that process,
we felt that (and they did too!) a lot of their
classroom management problems and a lot of
the kinds of research they wanted to do needed
some sort of framework within which they could
work, within which they could do research,
within which they could help their learners,
advise them or help to sort out certain
problems.

And so, what came out of that was: Why
don’t we have the kind of syllabus that enabled
on-going reflection, research, investigation to
occur and the on-going decision and giving of
responsibility by learners   to  be  brought  to
the surface in classroom life in some way. And
so, came out the idea of the PS, that teachers
might work from a PS primary, to get their
learners more engaged in their learning but also
to free the teacher to do more investigative
work and to get  closer  to their learners.

So, it came out of, I think,
a long period of experience
working with teachers who
were always looking for
answers to classroom
management problems and
for ways of getting action
research in their classrooms
going. So, that’s where it
came from. I think, in terms
of philosophy or educational
ideology, it clearly comes
from the view of the learner
as an active participant in
shaping their own learning,
and that teaching and
learning is essentially a joint
activity, a cooperative activity,
especially if you are with a
large group of people in a
classroom and that the
responsibility for oneself and

for the others’ learning, both as a teacher and as
a learner, is a very important element. All of this
comes, I think, from humanistic approaches to
education rather than behaviorist or classical
approaches to learning and teaching.

E. R.E. R.E. R.E. R.E. R.: In the framework you propose, In the framework you propose, In the framework you propose, In the framework you propose, In the framework you propose,
there is a total recognition for learners’there is a total recognition for learners’there is a total recognition for learners’there is a total recognition for learners’there is a total recognition for learners’
rights,  learners’ autonomyrights,  learners’ autonomyrights,  learners’ autonomyrights,  learners’ autonomyrights,  learners’ autonomy. Who, in the. Who, in the. Who, in the. Who, in the. Who, in the
end, makend, makend, makend, makend, makes the decisions?es the decisions?es the decisions?es the decisions?es the decisions?

TTTTTeacherseacherseacherseacherseachers
might  workmight  workmight  workmight  workmight  work
frfrfrfrfrom a PS,om a PS,om a PS,om a PS,om a PS,

primarilyprimarilyprimarilyprimarilyprimarily, to, to, to, to, to
get theirget theirget theirget theirget their

learners  morelearners  morelearners  morelearners  morelearners  more
engaged inengaged inengaged inengaged inengaged in

their learningtheir learningtheir learningtheir learningtheir learning
but also to freebut also to freebut also to freebut also to freebut also to free
the teacher tothe teacher tothe teacher tothe teacher tothe teacher to

do moredo moredo moredo moredo more
investigativeinvestigativeinvestigativeinvestigativeinvestigative

workworkworkworkwork



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64PROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILE

M . PM . PM . PM . PM . P. B .. B .. B .. B .. B .: The classroom group makes
decisions. The main decisions are made by the
group. I don’t believe in learner-centered
curricula and I don’t believe in autonomy. I
mean, in the sense that I don’t believe a learner
who is in a classroom can be genuinely
autonomous. It’s a contradiction in terms. The
learner is working with a group of people and
that group of people includes the teacher. So,
they are in a collective environment, they are in
an environment where cooperation and mutual
help is actually essential if anything is to happen
at all.  Normally, the relationship is between the
teacher as an individual and the learners as a
group. So, I suppose I would replace this idea
by the notion of collective responsibilitycollective responsibilitycollective responsibilitycollective responsibilitycollective responsibility8.
But, respecting the individual within that, so,
just as the learner can work with the group in a
cooperative way to contribute to their opinion
on what decisions should be made, contribute
the kind of problems, difficulties and
achievements they are having, as feedback, to
the group. So, the group, each member of the
classroom, should come to realize that their own
work will benefit if they also see themselves as
a part responsible for the good running of the
group, and that the teacher is an equal member
of this. Clearly the teacher has, if you like, a
guiding-coordinating responsibility and the
teacher has greater wisdom in terms of the
language and in terms of the experience of
running a classroom. But, I see the teacher, put
very simply, as a facilitator of this collective
responsibility, of this cooperative endeavor. So,
I’m not so sure about individual, I mean, I think,
individual autonomy, fair enough; but, I think,
the primary thing about the teacher is that I am
working with groups of people and so, I am
much more concerned with collective
responsibility and cooperation. So, how can I
get these things mobilized and then working
for me. That’s the key question, and without, of

course, allowing the group to dictate to the
individual and similarly, without the individual
dictating to the group, and that applies to the
teacher just as much as anybody else. So, the
basic answer to your question, “Who mak“Who mak“Who mak“Who mak“Who makeseseseses
the decisions”?the decisions”?the decisions”?the decisions”?the decisions”?, I think, for me, it’s very
obvious that the decisions are made together
by teachers and learners.

E. R.E. R.E. R.E. R.E. R.:  Can activities such as grammarCan activities such as grammarCan activities such as grammarCan activities such as grammarCan activities such as grammar
activities, or those typical of  notional,activities, or those typical of  notional,activities, or those typical of  notional,activities, or those typical of  notional,activities, or those typical of  notional,
functional or task-based syllabuses, befunctional or task-based syllabuses, befunctional or task-based syllabuses, befunctional or task-based syllabuses, befunctional or task-based syllabuses, be
contained or developed within a PS ?contained or developed within a PS ?contained or developed within a PS ?contained or developed within a PS ?contained or developed within a PS ?

M . PM . PM . PM . PM . P. B .. B .. B .. B .. B .: Certainly. There is a big
misunderstanding about this. People have
interpreted the PS to be seen as a challenge to,
or something quite opposite to other kinds of
syllabuses—grammatical, functional, task-
based or whatever. Those are syllabuses of
content, they are the sorts of syllabuses that are
about what should be achieved in terms of the
target language, what we should work on, what
aspects of the language and what types of skills
we should focus on,  and so on and so forth . A
PS will contain within it activities and tasks
which themselves will be, maybe, structural,
they may be functional, they may be task-
oriented or skill-oriented or whatever. There will
be a range of very traditional sorts of things
that learners might work on: grammar,
vocabulary or pronunciation. There will be a
range of communication activities and so on
and so forth. In some sense, it doesn’t really
matter what aspects of the language are focused
on and what skills are selected in terms of the
actual tasks that people do. They can be
structural or functional or communicative or
whatever. What does does does does does matter is who chooses
these, why they choose them and how long they
work on them. That’s what matters and it’s
those sorts of decisions that are usually made

8 My emphasis



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quite outside the classroom or by textbook
writers and they are not actually considered and
they are not actually worked on. So, what I am
interested in is providing a framework where
an individual learner in the classroom can work
on either grammar or vocabulary or functions
or a role play or a reading text or a
communicative activity or a massive project
with other people, with other learners,
sometimes with the teacher in small groups or
on their own. But, having chosen to do that,
mainly on the basis of: (i) what that learner feels
is most urgent to him/her in terms of the
immediate learning needs on the way to
achieving long term needs and (ii) what kinds
of problems that learner has had, in working
just before ;  what sort of problems has the
learner had in working with a text or in some
kind of oral activity ? But that learner’s
identified or other people in the group will help
that learner to be identified. So, the kinds of
content that people work on will depend on
learner need, as I made clear, through
negotiation of what the learner himself or herself
identified  the need as being the teacher advising
on the basis of learner problems. So, the choice
of what other kind of content syllabus, if you
can choose on the way, is not a problem for me
at all.  It’s not a problem for me if, in fact, the
teacher is working within a syllabus that is being
externally imposed and the teacher has to
complete that syllabus, say, the teacher has to
complete the syllabus designed by the Ministry
of Education or somebody and that syllabus is
very structural or it is very functional or
whatever. That doesn’t seem to me a problem
either because, obviously, one of the first things
you do with that syllabus is to negotiate it ;
that is, you present it to the learners and say,
‘Right, these are the things we have to achieve.
What order should we take them in? What do
we already know ? What would be the best way
of achieving this?’ and so on and so forth.  In

fact, an external syllabus document would be a
very good starting point for the process of
negotiation. So, in essence, it is not process or
structure, or function. The Process is a
framework within which the choice of whatever
other syllabus, appropriate to learner need and
learner problem, is actually made. So, I don’t
see that there is any necessary conflict here. I
have personal views about what the more useful
or more helpful or more interesting content
syllabus is but that, I think, is quite independent
to the notion of the PS. It does not replace this.
It provides a frame in which the best of this
can be chosen by learners and teachers together.

E. R. If we understand teaching as aE. R. If we understand teaching as aE. R. If we understand teaching as aE. R. If we understand teaching as aE. R. If we understand teaching as a
r e s e a rr e s e a rr e s e a rr e s e a rr e s e a rc h i n g  a c t i v i t yc h i n g  a c t i v i t yc h i n g  a c t i v i t yc h i n g  a c t i v i t yc h i n g  a c t i v i t y,  i t  l e a d s  t o  t h e,  i t  l e a d s  t o  t h e,  i t  l e a d s  t o  t h e,  i t  l e a d s  t o  t h e,  i t  l e a d s  t o  t h e
assumption  that teachers should beassumption  that teachers should beassumption  that teachers should beassumption  that teachers should beassumption  that teachers should be
learners, that teachers researlearners, that teachers researlearners, that teachers researlearners, that teachers researlearners, that teachers research as theych as theych as theych as theych as they
teach and learn. Is it, then, possible thatteach and learn. Is it, then, possible thatteach and learn. Is it, then, possible thatteach and learn. Is it, then, possible thatteach and learn. Is it, then, possible that
t h e  P S ,  d e f i n e d  a s  a  f r a m e w o r k  f o rt h e  P S ,  d e f i n e d  a s  a  f r a m e w o r k  f o rt h e  P S ,  d e f i n e d  a s  a  f r a m e w o r k  f o rt h e  P S ,  d e f i n e d  a s  a  f r a m e w o r k  f o rt h e  P S ,  d e f i n e d  a s  a  f r a m e w o r k  f o r
planning and action—as shown in yourplanning and action—as shown in yourplanning and action—as shown in yourplanning and action—as shown in yourplanning and action—as shown in your
diagram—could be applicable not onlydiagram—could be applicable not onlydiagram—could be applicable not onlydiagram—could be applicable not onlydiagram—could be applicable not only
to language learning but also to teacherto language learning but also to teacherto language learning but also to teacherto language learning but also to teacherto language learning but also to teacher
development ?development ?development ?development ?development ?



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66PROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILE

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.:  Yes, absolutely.  I think you’re being
idealistic if you think that teachers see themselves
as researchers, they may well see themselves as
learners. I think you’d have to argue, to convince
teachers, that they should be doing research or
be researched, because people have different
views of what they mean by research. If you mean
by research that teachers diagnose learner
problems, get feedback from learners in terms of
the learners’ strategies, explore with their learners
their conceptualization of learning,  identify
decision-making problems in their classroom,
alternative ways of working, involvement in
finding out which materials (with their learners)
are best to work on, what sort of materials are
most useful, evaluating progress; all these sorts
of things which teachers do in a class in an
indirect way quite often. If you say that’s research,
it seems to me that it is almost synonymous with
teaching,  because, in essence, what I am doing
is finding out,  investigating as I work and
exploring as I seek the best ways of helping
learners to learn. If that’s research, I’m sure I agree
with you. But, if on the other
hand, you think that teachers
should do action research with
learners in their classroom in
order to develop personally, I
am not sure, I don’t know. I
mean, I know teachers who
dododododo do action research as part
of their application of the
process ; the sort of work that
we’ve been talking about. But,
if you are asking me, could a
teacher training course be
based on a framework of shared decision-making? I
mean a PS, then, of course, I see no reason why no.
In fact, I see lots of good reasons why it should be.

E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.: What reasons might you give forWhat reasons might you give forWhat reasons might you give forWhat reasons might you give forWhat reasons might you give for
adopting a PS framework for teacheradopting a PS framework for teacheradopting a PS framework for teacheradopting a PS framework for teacheradopting a PS framework for teacher
training?training?training?training?training?

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.:  The basic reason is, instead of saying
to people, ‘Don’ t do as I do, do as I say’. You are
saying to people implicitly by adopting a PS with
them, ‘Look, this is how I work with you. Might
it be possible for you to consider working like
this with your learners? I am working with you in
a way that engages your responsibility, that asks
you to participate in the cooperative work of the
group. I am asking you to take responsibility on
your learning and for the learning of others in
this group and I’m asking you to engage in shared
decision-making to select activities, to share your
problems’  and so on and so forth. I have worked
with teachers like that. It is just a chance. They
would also say,  ‘Yes, this is the way I can engage
learners’ responsibility and this is the way I can
begin to implement shared decision- making in
my classroom’.

In fact, there’s far more of a chance of that
happening rather than if I stand up and give
lectures about the PS to a group  of  teachers
and  tell them about it. If I actually work in this
way myself as a teacher trainer, then, it ceases

to be an ideal thing and
becomes a possible thing, and
by example, I am enabling
them to see an alternative way
of working; by example, not
just because I am telling them
but because this is the way I
work with these people. So,
that for me is the major reason
I would have for adopting a
PS for Teacher Training, and
for the very same reasons, you
know, the rationale for Teacher

Training would be just the same: the notion of
cooperative work, responsibility, problems in me
as a trainer, my own classroom management and
sharing them with you. Obviously, one of the
themes of Teacher Training may not be the
language, so I am not so much concerned with
helping develop people’s negotiation of

ChangeChangeChangeChangeChange
happenshappenshappenshappenshappens
thrthrthrthrthroughoughoughoughough

actions  ofactions  ofactions  ofactions  ofactions  of
what  I do aswhat  I do aswhat  I do aswhat  I do aswhat  I do as
well as whatwell as whatwell as whatwell as whatwell as what

I thinkI thinkI thinkI thinkI think



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meaning or being better communicators, but I
might be, I might be. It may well be that teacher
training or workshops that I’ve run are also seen,
by the teachers, as an ideal opportunity to work
in the target that they are supposed to be
teaching with fellow teachers and it may be one
of the very rare opportunities they have. So, it
may well be. If I run a workshop in English, I am
helping the teachers to become more refined
communicators and helping them to negotiate
their meanings about classroom life and so on
and so forth. It is also a good reason for adopting
a PS because they have to talk about their
experience and they have to negotiate what the
best ways of solving their problems are. So, I
think there are very good reasons for adopting
a PS for teacher training, specially when you
compare with how most teacher training is
carried out in most parts of the world, basically,
where you have situations in which the experts
very rarely work inside an actual classroom. The
experts tell the professionals what they should
be doing without actually knowing what those
professionals are doing in their classrooms and
they assume that if they pass their expertise on,
somehow things will be changed. Changes very
rarely happen that way. Changes only happen
when the individuals relate possible, meaningful
alternatives to their own life experiences. So,
change happens through actions of what I do
as well as what I think. And therefore,  a PS
which enables active-taking responsibility and
sharing decisions, doing things together, of a
central nature, I think, is going to be more
beneficial for people in terms of their
professional development than merely listening
to what experts think.

E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:  So, based on what you have justSo, based on what you have justSo, based on what you have justSo, based on what you have justSo, based on what you have just
explained, can I say that teacher trainingexplained, can I say that teacher trainingexplained, can I say that teacher trainingexplained, can I say that teacher trainingexplained, can I say that teacher training
leading to teacher development, could beleading to teacher development, could beleading to teacher development, could beleading to teacher development, could beleading to teacher development, could be
seen as a problem-solving situation orseen as a problem-solving situation orseen as a problem-solving situation orseen as a problem-solving situation orseen as a problem-solving situation or
activity requiring shared decision-making?activity requiring shared decision-making?activity requiring shared decision-making?activity requiring shared decision-making?activity requiring shared decision-making?

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.:  Yes, of course. Most teachers,
specially experienced teachers, if you have a
workshop with experienced teachers and you ask
them to decide the content - any time I’ve done
this and I’ve done it quite a lot of times they
define the content in terms of their problems in
the classroom. So, that’s a very good place to
start because their problems in the classroom
are the things they sort of worry about.  But those
problems may be the tip of an iceberg. There
may be lots of things under the surface that  those
problems express, but if you start with the
teachers’ problems in their classroom
management then share these in a trusting way,
that should be the content of your work. From
that you are going to say: ‘O.K.I may be running
a workshop but I don’ t know, I have similar kinds
of problems myself’. So, how can we, then, decide
how we should work on things and who should
work on them because you are not going to have
the same problems. What sort of things we can
do both in the classroom and in the workshop ?
So, already you are locked into the PS.  So, yes, I
think it can be  problem soIving ; the content
should be solving problems.

E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:  And when does evaluation takAnd when does evaluation takAnd when does evaluation takAnd when does evaluation takAnd when does evaluation takeeeee
place?place?place?place?place?

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.:  All the time. Evaluation is a very,
very important element. By evaluation I don’t
mean testing progress. By evaluation I mean,
at a certain point, if I was working on a
workshop, say, a two-day teacher training
workshop, at the end of each day at least. But if
I was working over a long period of time, at the
end of a class, at the end of a large activity, three
lessons,  at the end of the week or at the end of
a period of work, but certainly very regularly.
The evaluation would take two forms, or would
answer three questions really: ‘What have we
achieved? What have we done?. Have we
progressed? What have we gained so far?. What



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68PROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILE

have we learned ?’  and actually sharing those
things and taking a good long time sharing
them because we tend to emphasize the
negative things; and equally spending a good
long time looking at,   ‘What are the problems?
What are the difficulties? What still needs to
be done? What are we achieving? What are we
getting? What should be on our agenda? What
should we focus on from now?’  So, that is the
second question. The third question would be:
‘How can we improve the way we are working?
Are we satisfied with the way we are working?
Are there more efficient ways of doing things?’
So, there’d be achievements, problems and ways
of working and that...as much time has to be
spent on that, I think, as spent on planning and
deciding,  ‘What are we going to do?’ It must
be regular and it must be, again, a shared
activity. It’s quite often the sort of thing the
teacher does when s/he goes home and mark
assignments and worries about this and then
think O.K. what, ah,   The teacher very often is
taking those decisions on herself or himself and
that seems to be, again, an unnecessary burden.
So, yes, evaluation is absolutely central, because
the evaluation stage shapes the whole of the
rest of the PS. Evaluation is the way in which
you construct your own group’s PS together.

E.E.E.E.E. R . :R . :R . :R . :R . :  I n  o t h e rI n  o t h e rI n  o t h e rI n  o t h e rI n  o t h e r
w o rw o rw o rw o rw o rd s ,  a  s o r t  o fd s ,  a  s o r t  o fd s ,  a  s o r t  o fd s ,  a  s o r t  o fd s ,  a  s o r t  o f
s u m m a t i v e - f o r m a t i v es u m m a t i v e - f o r m a t i v es u m m a t i v e - f o r m a t i v es u m m a t i v e - f o r m a t i v es u m m a t i v e - f o r m a t i v e
evaluationevaluationevaluationevaluationevaluation.

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.:  Yes, if you say, by
a certain point, ‘We ‘have
done this and have done that
and have done the other’,
there is an element of
summative evaluation. Because you are saying,
‘What have we achieved ?  This is what we set
out to do. Have we achieved it ? Which aspects
did we set out to achieve and did so, which

aspects are still unachieved ?’ So, yes, it’s both
formative and summative, but fundamentally
formative, formative in the sense of planning
ahead, improving the way we are working
together.

E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.: MikMikMikMikMike, why done, why done, why done, why done, why don’t we speak on a’t we speak on a’t we speak on a’t we speak on a’t we speak on a
d e l i c a t e  i s s u e  ?  D o e s  t h e  P S ,  a s  ad e l i c a t e  i s s u e  ?  D o e s  t h e  P S ,  a s  ad e l i c a t e  i s s u e  ?  D o e s  t h e  P S ,  a s  ad e l i c a t e  i s s u e  ?  D o e s  t h e  P S ,  a s  ad e l i c a t e  i s s u e  ?  D o e s  t h e  P S ,  a s  a
framework either for language learningframework either for language learningframework either for language learningframework either for language learningframework either for language learning
or teacher development, have limitations?or teacher development, have limitations?or teacher development, have limitations?or teacher development, have limitations?or teacher development, have limitations?

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.:  Well, a framework is always a limited
thing. A framework is, in some sense, a piece of
paper, with sort of areas of decision-making
identified on it. So, as it stands as a document
or as a set of proposals for teacher and learner
action, it is ideal. I don’ t believe there is one
PS. I believe that if teachers adopt a PS
framework, there will be as many PSes as there
are teachers and classrooms that adopt them.
‘Why would it be rejected?’  I think, is another
way of looking at it. And I think, there are lots
of answers to that. There are probably as many
if not more answers, more reasons that people
might offer to reject it than could be offered to
support it. And, you know, I can think of several.
A teacher reason might be, and this is just to
have an example,  a teacher main reason might

be , ‘There is a fear here that I
would loose a very strong
element of control on what
happens in my classroom, that
I quite like to be the
conductor of the orchestra or
the main controller of
activities and routes we take’.
And that’s a genuine fear and
it requires a confident teacher
who’s willing to take risks,

because I think the PS does involve the teacher
in taking risks and having different kinds of
responsibilities as a guide, as a facilitator, as a
coordinator, as an evaluator and not just as a

The PSThe PSThe PSThe PSThe PS
requires arequires arequires arequires arequires a
confidentconfidentconfidentconfidentconfident

teacher who’steacher who’steacher who’steacher who’steacher who’s
willing  to takwilling  to takwilling  to takwilling  to takwilling  to takeeeee

risksrisksrisksrisksrisks



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transmitter  of  knowledge. So  one  teacher
worry  would be  ‘Can I take on the new
responsibilities that the PS
demands of me?’ And one of
the risks is taking on these
responsibilities.

‘I’m  giving up familiar
control that I used to have in
my lessons’. And I think,
that’s a genuine concern. I
think, the answer I would give
is, ‘Well, what do you
consider your main
responsibility to be  as  a
teacher?’   I would want to
give that teacher back that
question. The second
objection might be from the
learners. ‘O.K’. the learners
might say, ‘Look, you are
asking me to make decisions
that, I think,  I see you as the
teacher responsible for
making’. And that’s a tricky one. What that
learner  is essentially doing is giving up or
surrendering his/her autonomy and
responsibility actually as a learner for their own
learning back to the teacher, being teacher-
dependent. There may be very good reasons
for this because, of course, learning a language
is a rather threatening and a highly affective
experience. But, I’m not just interested in what
learners do in my classes. I am interested in
how to help learners become good language
learners and to carry on learning outside the
class, and after they leave the class,  and the
only way that’s going to come about is if the
learner recognizes the extent to which s/he
exercises their responsibilities in good learning
experiences in the past and, thus, realize that
they are, in fact, responsible for their own
learning and when they’ve learnt something
they have taken the major role. Secondly, to

give them space to take responsibility for their
learning and the best way of doing that is to

make far fewer decisions on
their behalf myself. And
thirdly, to get them to become
more and more independent
of me as a source of the
language but to use me as
one possible thing to rely on
because the pressure that
that puts on me, as a teacher,
is almost inhuman and rather
hard to bear because I cannot
meet the particular needs  of
a group  of  learners. It’s
Humanly  impossible,
because  these needs  are so
diverse. So the learners may
say, ‘You are getting paid to
make decisions, please , make
decisions’ My response to
that would be, ‘What are the
things that really help you to

learn ?’ And if you think of good learning
experiences in your past life , right through
your past life, ‘What  was your role in those
experiences?’ And ‘How much did you have
to depend on other people, including the
teacher?’ And I think if learners can track  that
question, they’d realize that they are far more
responsible for their own learning   than they
had assumed. Finally, I think external bodies
such as heads of departments, ministries,
institutions might   want   certain   aims
achieved and certain content covered and
that’s fair enough. I mean, teachers obviously
have to, in some sense, achieve certain
objectives and they may see the PS as
something which has got nothing to do with
this. It’s threatening to the established
syllabus, or threatening to the established
aims. I don’t see that.  I think, that’s a shiver,
that’s a false fear. But, they may see the PS,

     I’d be verI’d be verI’d be verI’d be verI’d be veryyyyy
surprised  ifsurprised  ifsurprised  ifsurprised  ifsurprised  if

people wouldpeople wouldpeople wouldpeople wouldpeople would
not accept thenot accept thenot accept thenot accept thenot accept the

view that one ofview that one ofview that one ofview that one ofview that one of
the mainthe mainthe mainthe mainthe main

functions  of afunctions  of afunctions  of afunctions  of afunctions  of a
prprprprprofessionalofessionalofessionalofessionalofessional
teacher is toteacher is toteacher is toteacher is toteacher is to

facilitatefacilitatefacilitatefacilitatefacilitate
successfulsuccessfulsuccessfulsuccessfulsuccessful
learninglearninglearninglearninglearning



○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○
70PROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILEPROFILE

the whole notion of sharing decisions with
learners—the teacher sharing responsibility—as
not the business of a language teacher; that the
language teacher is there to
achieve the objectives of the
course and to get students
through the next or to a
certain level. And my answer
to that one is, ‘What do you
see as the main of the
professional teacher ? ’If you
see it as the transmission of
knowledge, fair enough. But,
people may disagree that
that’s the main function of
the teacher. I think I’d be very
surprised if people would not
accept the view that one of
the main functions  of a
professional  teacher is to
facilitate  successful learning in the learning
groups, and if they are working in the
classroom, to facilitate that classroom process,
and that’s exactly why  I feel  there  is a need
for a PS,  to not put all the weight on the

teacher’s shoulders to make sure things work
well, but also to help    things   be    more
efficient and successful. But, sharing that

load. Because if you share
it, it’s likely that you’ll
a c t u a l l y  h a v e  m o r e
efficiency because you’ll be
meeting a wider range of
p e o p l e ’ s  n e e d s  a n d
expectations and preferred
ways of working and the
need to be committed. I am
not denying that there may
be conflicts and that there
may be different priorities,
but therein lies negotiation,
t h e r e  y o u  g e t  t h e
opportunities to transform
problems together.

E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.:E. R.: Thank you MikThank you MikThank you MikThank you MikThank you Mike. Ye. Ye. Ye. Ye. Your researour researour researour researour researchchchchch
and contributions to language educationand contributions to language educationand contributions to language educationand contributions to language educationand contributions to language education
will be an invaluable help for all of us.will be an invaluable help for all of us.will be an invaluable help for all of us.will be an invaluable help for all of us.will be an invaluable help for all of us.

M.PM.PM.PM.PM.P.B..B..B..B..B.: I hope so. Thank you.

I am notI am notI am notI am notI am not
denying  thatdenying  thatdenying  thatdenying  thatdenying  that
there may bethere may bethere may bethere may bethere may be

conflicts conflicts conflicts conflicts conflicts and thatand thatand thatand thatand that
there may bethere may bethere may bethere may bethere may be

differentdifferentdifferentdifferentdifferent
priorities, butpriorities, butpriorities, butpriorities, butpriorities, but

therein liestherein liestherein liestherein liestherein lies
negotiationnegotiationnegotiationnegotiationnegotiation