the humble request of certain christians reproachfully called anabaptists who onely desire to owne, imbrace, professe and maintain the pure truths of god in the hatred of all errours, as namely universall redemption, ... nutt, thomas, 17th cent. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a89781 of text r212104 in the english short title catalog (thomason 669.f.8[27]). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 5 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a89781 wing n1473 thomason 669.f.8[27] estc r212104 99870756 99870756 161078 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a89781) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 161078) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 245:669f8[27]) the humble request of certain christians reproachfully called anabaptists who onely desire to owne, imbrace, professe and maintain the pure truths of god in the hatred of all errours, as namely universall redemption, ... nutt, thomas, 17th cent. 1 sheet ([1] p.) s.n., [london : 1643] author's name mentioned in final line of text. title from first lines of text. imprint from wing. the anabaptists' request thay they may be allowed to publicly justify their belief. annotation on thomason copy: "thom nutt put: cariar of norwich"; "london 20th septemb 1.". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng anabaptists -england -early works to 1800. freedom of religion -england -early works to 1800. a89781 r212104 (thomason 669.f.8[27]). civilwar no the humble request of certain christians reproachfully called anabaptists, who onely desire to owne, imbrace, professe and maintain the pure nutt, thomas 1643 897 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2007-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-07 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-08 pip willcox sampled and proofread 2007-08 pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the humble request of certain christians reproachfully called anabaptists , who onely desire to owne , imbrace , professe and maintain the pure truths of god in the hatred of all errours , as namely universall redemption , free-will and falling away , with all other things contrary to wholsome doctrine , who are accused as factious movers of sedition and rebellion , and the cause of these unnaturall warres , and of the difference betwixt his majesty and the parliament , that seeing such a common defamation is raised upon them , by reason that perhaps some professing and owning some truths of god in outward profession which they hold , being hypocrites , do walk very scandalously in the broaching and practising of damnable errours and heresies , even denying the lord that visibly seemed to have bought them , and bring upon themselves swift damnation , and many follow their pernicious wayes , by reason of whom the wayes of truth are evill spoken of , 2 pet. 2. 1. 2. and indeed now this scripture is fulfilled , whereby we , according to that which our saviour lord and master said , do undergo the hatred , revilings , and all manner of evill speakings of many , which although it be a signe to us of our blessednesse , matth. 5. 11. inasmuch as they speak it of us falsly for his name sake , yet considering he saith , that they that kill us will think they do god service , although indeed he saith withall , it is because they have not known the father nor himselfe , john . 16. 2. 3. and seeing he hath a time to reveale himselfe to his own , and hath promised that the knowledge of god shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea , esa. 11. 9. and that all shall know him from the least to the greatest , jer. 31. 34. mark , it seems knowledge shall begin at the least . and whereas we now see god stirring up the magistrates to take part with his poore despised saints against their antichristian great opposers , wherein he hath made them his sword to lop off the heads of them already , which we acknowledge with all thankfulnesse , first to god , and secondly to them , and are further incouraged to intreat them as they are just and godly , for gods sake to heare our cause , and do us justice , that if god be god , we may follow him altogether , then will wrath and stripes flee away , and peace , plenty and prosperity with true joy and gladnesse will come in the roome thereof : for when our wayes please the lord , he will make our enemies at peace with us , prov. 16. 7. we therfore desire all that feare god , that they that are the most affectionate christians would get the hands of all in their parish that feare god , who may be many more then they expect , for there were seven thousand that had not bowed to baal , 1 king. 19. 18. when eliah thought he had beene left alone : therefore go to all in your parishes , and desire their hands to so reasonable a request as this , namely , that inasmuch as there are such accusations against us as aforesaid , that the parliament would be favourably pleased for the glory of god and the clearing of his truths , and the farther shining forth of jesus christ in his glorious gospell to his people , to call us before them , and also of the doctors of the synod as many as they please , and proclaime that all the accusers of what we hold contrary to the truth of god , may here accuse us ; and if those doctors can prove their ministery , baptisme or sabboth to be commanded of god , or owned by christ , or any thing we hold to be contrary to godlinesse , then we will thankfully be reduced to the truth , and repent and revoke our errour , and suffer for our presumption , but if it shall be made evident , that neither their ministery , baptisme nor sabboth be commanded of god , although it be a light but very new sprung forth to bring us out of ignorance , whereout when it pleased not god to give us the means to see and come forth , the time of that ignorance god regarded not , but now will command all his people every where to repent , and walk after the light , and give them repentance for his glory , and their eternall comfort . even so come lord jesus . thus intreating all that feare god , as they pitty poore soules , that desire to be reduced from all errours to all truths , and be confirmed and setled therein , to get in their severall parishes as man y hands as they can to a petition to the parliament for this so reasonable a desire , the which petition you shall have at m. barbers in thredneedle-street at the horse-shoe , from thomas nutt , one for every parish . a declaration of some of those people in or near london, called anabaptists, that own, and beleeve, that gods love, in the death of his son, is extended to all men; and that are in the belief and practice of the doctrine of christ, contained in hebrew 6. 1, 2. humbly presented to the high court of parliament, and the people of this common-wealth. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a85702 of text r211459 in the english short title catalog (thomason 669.f.22[67]). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 9 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a85702 wing g2001 thomason 669.f.22[67] estc r211459 99870184 99870184 163649 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a85702) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 163649) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 247:669f22[67]) a declaration of some of those people in or near london, called anabaptists, that own, and beleeve, that gods love, in the death of his son, is extended to all men; and that are in the belief and practice of the doctrine of christ, contained in hebrew 6. 1, 2. humbly presented to the high court of parliament, and the people of this common-wealth. griffith, john, fl. 1648-1659. 1 sheet ([1] p.) printed by thomas milbourn for samuel cleaver, near the stone-chappel in pauls-church-yard, london : [1660] anonymous. by john griffith. publication date from wing. a statement of their religious and political creed. annotation on thomason copy: "january. 14. 1659". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng anabaptists -england -london -doctrines -early works to 1800. a85702 r211459 (thomason 669.f.22[67]). civilwar no a declaration of some of those people in or near london, called anabaptists, that own, and beleeve, that gods love, in the death of his son, griffith, john 1660 1514 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2007-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-09 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-10 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2007-10 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a declaration of some of those people in or near london , called anabaptists , that own , and beleeve , that gods love , in the death of his son , is extended to all men ; and that are in the belief and practice of the doctrine of christ , contained in hebrews 6. 1 , 2. humbly presented to the high court of parliament , and the people of this common-wealth . whereas the people in this nation called ( though falsly ) anabaptists , are represented as the onely men causing those sad , and much to be lamented troubles , that hath lately hapned in the common-wealth ; and as if they were such , who would indeavour the setting up their own interest and religion , by taking away the lives , and shedding the blood of others ; yea , and as if they were utter enemies to magistracy : these , and such like calumnies , being by the tongues of the malicious , or ignorant cast upon them , we think it our duty , being as well as others concerned , to publish to the world our innocency therein , though in this we have peace , that in our consciences we know , ( the most high god bearing-us witnesse ) that in those things we are wholly mis-represented . and truly , in this we can rejoyce , ( we knowing our selves falsly reported of , and reproached ) that we should be so accounted , considering that gods people in no age did escape such foul aspersions : for who was accounted the troubler of israel but elisha ? and who a pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition but paul ? we do therefore , in behalfe of our selves , declare , ( before the lord , who , should we not speake the truth , would be a swift witnesse against us ) to magistrates and people , that all men may have a right understanding touching us . i. that we have not , neither do we desire , or seek the blood of any ; no , not of our greatest enemies that hate us , and do , or shall despitefully use us : but desire their good as our own , and believe it our duty to seek it by all lawfull means we can , desiring to be found followers of christ , who came not to destroy mens lives , but to save them , who accordingly laid down his life for his enemies , and hath commanded us that we love our enemies , and do good to them that hate us . and although we have been represented as men thirsting after blood , and designed to cut our neigbours throats ; we do hereby declare , that we are so far from such a wicked thing , and do so much abominate the thoughts thereof , that the lord , who is our record , knoweth that it is upon our hearts , as our bounden duty , to assist and defend the nation , this city , and our neighbours as much as in us lie , from such violence , against whomsoever they are that shall at any time attempt it , if called thereunto by the magistrates of this nation . ii. we do declare , that , as for magistrates , we own them to be gods ministers , and that they bare not the sword in vain , but have their power given them by the lord , to the end , they might be a terrour to them that do evill , and a praise to them that do well . iii. we declare , that it 's our duty , enjoyned us by the lord , to submit to them in all things , and to obey every ordinance of man for the lords sake , viz. when they shall command things civil and lawful , then in those things actively to obey them ; and when they shall command us to do things relating to religion , and contrary to the light of our consciences , then ( though we cannot actually obey them ) we ought ( and doubt not , but through the strength of christ jesus our lord , we shall ) passively obey by sufferings , and that joyfully , when called to it , without resisting . iv. we believe , and declare , that it 's not our business to meddle with their state affaires , or the government of the common-wealth , unlesse by them duly called thereunto , further , then according to the will of god , to pray that we may live a peaceable life under them , in all godlinesse and honesty . v. we declare , that the national ministers we disown , as not being the ministers of christ , and their ways and worship , as not the true worship appointed by christ now in the gospel ; and in particular , we declare against their sprinkling infants , and their cruel , and inhumane forcing of maintenance by law , or otherwise from any : yet notwithstanding , we declare , that we do desire their good , and that they may injoy common freedom in the nation , equall with others . vi . we believe , and declare , that all men whatsoever , ought to have their liberty in point of conscience ; and that no magistrate hath received power from christ to punish for , or to compel any to this or that form of religion . vii . we do declare , that we our selves , and all other of what perswasion soever they are , if found to walk contrary to the just lawes of the nation , ought by the magistrats thereof to be punished , according to the demerit of his or their transgression , and not in the least to be tollerated therein . viii . we believe and declare , that we ought not ; yea , and that it were sinful for us to maintaine our religion by a carnal sword , or to assert any spirituall cause or thing thereby . lastly , we believe and declare , that all the kingdoms of the earth , are by right jesus christs , and his saints ; and that he , and they , shall one day possess them , which shall be the fift , and last monarchy upon earth ; for which time we wait , as pilgrims and strangers : and do again declare , that in the meane time , it 's our duty to obey the powers that are , ( as above said ) and not to assert his kingly power , and authority by any other sword than the sword of the spirit , which is the word of god ; and do hereby declare against all such as shall so do , as not owned by us in such a practise : so far are we from setting up our selves , or asserting our religion , by taking away the lives , or shedding the blood of any . post-script . peradventure some may question why we should publish this declaration , seeing there was two published before it ; to such we give these reasons for satisfaction . i. because that , dated december the 12. 1659. we cannot in all things close with , therefore , forasmuch as we , who go under the same notion with them of being anabaptists , thought it our duty to manifest our non-consent with them , in their sewing pillows under the elbowes of the ministers of the nation ; and their want of boldnesse , to witnesse against their babylonish worship ; which is also the reason why we declare against those national ministers , more than against any other . ii. secondly , because in that declaration , bearing date december 29. there is not every thing that was upon our hearts to declare ; yet , this we testify to all men , that what they do declare , we own as avery honest thing , and in nothing disscent from it ; but do judge that they have used much plainnesse , and manifested much fidellity to jesus christ ; and do beare the same testimony against the first , dated the 12. of december , as they do . john griffith william gurney charles latham william daniel james eachell john foxwel joshua palmer william williams william purver thomas field william tomkins edward stevens john bull william martin francis wilcocks john howard george cooper thomas hinton john knight thomas hull richard groom edward hull randal emerton will . tomlinson william tiddman mich. butterfield john ridal john grace london , printed by thomas milbourn for samuel cleaver , near the stone-chappel in pauls-church-yard . the second humble addresse of those who are called anabaptists in the county of lincoln presented to his majesty, charles the second, king of england, scotland, france, and ireland, &c. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a92812 of text r210922 in the english short title catalog (thomason 669.f.26[59]). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 7 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a92812 wing s2279 thomason 669.f.26[59] estc r210922 99869671 99869671 163941 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a92812) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 163941) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 247:669f26[59]) the second humble addresse of those who are called anabaptists in the county of lincoln presented to his majesty, charles the second, king of england, scotland, france, and ireland, &c. grantham, thomas, 1634-1692. 1 sheet ([1] p.) printed by simon dover, in martins near aldersgate, london : 1660. [i.e. 1661] actual publication date from wing. praying for the redress of their grievances. the first 'e' on the title page is printed backwards. signed by thomas grentham (i.e. grantham) and 29 others. annotation on thomason copy: "feb: 6." reproduction of the original in the british library. eng anabaptists -england -lincolnshire -early works to 1800. a92812 r210922 (thomason 669.f.26[59]). civilwar no the second humble addresse of those who are called anabaptists in the county of lincoln. presented to his majesty, charles the second, king grantham, thomas 1660 1024 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2007-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-09 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-09 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the second humble addresse of those who are called anabaptists in the county of lincoln . presented to his majesty , charles the second , king of england , scotland , france , and ireland , &c. may it please your majesty , once more to permit your distressed ( yet faithful ) subjects , to spread their innocency and sorrow of heart before you ; it seems it must needs be that offences do or shall come ; but the wo is deservedly their portion ( only ) by whom the offence cometh : and were it not that we had that strong fort innocency to fly unto , we durst not in this miserable day once dare to make our address unto you. but having this to support us in this tottering age , we therefore boldly ( yet in all humility ) solemnly declare , that notwithstanding the many wicked practises spoken of , or done against your majesty and government ; yet is our hearts and hands clean and pure here-from , as utterly abominable , and held in great detestation in our judgements and principles , as is further declared by our address formerly ; according to which former address , we hold our selves bound , as also by your great favours to us vouchsafed , when by your princely favour permitted to be present with your self , we are abundantly engaged ; so have we made it , and so shall we make it ( the god of heaven and earth assisting of us ) our great care to discharge our duties in every respect to the utmost of our ability , as becomes the children of god , and subjects to the king . we have not wanted hearty desires to signifie our opinions and resolutions touching the government of this nation , and of our deportment under the same , by a general agreement of all our brethren , in the same form of profession with us , but have been prevented partly by the unseasonableness of the time ; and partly by the negligence of some betrusted in the business ; and partly by the unhappy tumults and disturbances made and committed by men who fear not to speak evil of dignities : and lastly , we are altogether incapacitated for such an undertaking by your majesties late proclamation , prohibiting all meetings of such as are denominated anabaptists . o king , we must confess there is too notorious cause for severity , since clemency and mercy hath been abused ; but the abusers of mercy ought ( only ) to feel the smart of their misdoings : but oh let the innocent have the reward of their innocency , even the continuation of mercy , so will your throne be established in righteousness . when we read your letter from breda , and the revival thereof in your declaration for ecclesiastical affairs ; and your princely promises to us , when by your clemency permitted to be present with your self . o king , when we remember these things , we are ready to say ( not why was the kings proclamation so hasty , but ) why was the extention thereof so large ? shall the righteous suffer with the wicked ? god forbid . must your peaceable subjects be judged rioters , whilst many unpeaceable ones ( such as swearers and drunkards ) are freed from that judgement ? the lord will not accompany such proceedings . our humble request from these premises are , that there may be a righteous distinction in the administration of punishment ; lest the cryes of the innocent and their ruined families come up before the lord , whilst your prisons are filled with such as whose prayers have come up to the throne of grace on your majesties behalf , and can approve their hearts to the lord in respect of loyalty and good fidelity to your majesty , and civil government of this nation under your hands . it is indeed matter of sorrow , to see how the notorious prophane do rejoice at the present sufferings of the innocent ; who therefore are occasioned to pray , that wisdom may be given from god unto your majesty to execute the law justly , punishing the evil-doer , and preserving all that do well . but to avoid prolixity ( o king ) be pleased to know , that your poor subjects dare not refuse their innocent meetings , wherein their work is sincerely to worship god , & pray for your majesty , and for all men as in duty they are bound , seeing the authority by which they are dehorted from the neglect of their assemblies , heb. 10. 25. is greater than any , whereby your majesty can enjoyn the neglect thereof . and therefore though it cost us the loss of all that we have and are , as to things of an outward consideration ; yet dare we not shrink from so great a loss . yet are we resolved in the strength of god , not to rebel against any of your majesties commands : but in case we cannot conscionably act , we humbly purpose and heartily pray for strength to suffer patiently and joyfully ; and therefore cheerfully and faithfully do once more subscribe our selves your humble and obedient , though at this instant your imprisoned and distressed subjects and petitioners , thomas grentham will. burton john thorpe rich. crawforth valentine james richard drewry john kelsay john skiritt john lupton john watts edward sharpe charles warwike will . lillye john allan robert drewry christoph . ording rich. hanson john green will . pridgon daniel cheesman ralph james rob. cox tho. brampton john norfolke richard mathin will . smith tho. renolds rich. wray will. heart tho. muksworth . subscribed in behalf of themselves , and the several congregations unto which they are relared in the county of lincoln . london , printed by simon dover , in martins near aldersgate , 1660. proclamation against all meetings of quakers, anabaptists, &c. scotland. parliament. 1661 approx. 3 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a92595 wing s1308 thomason 669.f.26[56] estc r210919 99869668 99869668 163938 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a92595) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 163938) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 247:669f26[56]) proclamation against all meetings of quakers, anabaptists, &c. scotland. parliament. 1 sheet ([1] p.) by evan tyler, [edinburgh : 1661] imprint from wing. signed and dated at end: given at edinburgh the 22. day of january, 1661. and of our reign the twelfth year. a. primerose, cls. reg. annotation on thomason copy: "feb: 2d 1660"; the second 1 in date has been crossed out. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng quakers -scotland -early works to 1800. anabaptists -scotland -early works to 1800. freedom of religion -scotland -early works to 1800. assembly, right of -scotland -early works to 1800. 2007-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-08 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-09 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2007-09 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion cr diev et mon droit . honi · soit · qvi · mal · y · pense royal blazon or coat of arms proclamation against all meetings of quakers , anabaptists , &c. charles , by the grace of god , king of great brittain , france and ireland , defender of the faith ; to our lovits , heraulds , pursevants and messengers at arms , our sheriffs , in that part specially constitute , greeting : forasmuch as by several laws and acts of our parliament , especially by the one hundred and thirty one of the eight parliament of king james the sixth . our grandfather of blessed memory ( and renewed and ratified by vs , with advice of our estates of parliament , presently conveened ) it is statuted and ordained , that none of our subjects , of whatsoever quality , state or function , conveen or assemble themselves , for holding councils , conventions or assemblies ( except in the ordinary iudgements ) without our warrand , or express licence , had and obtained thereto , under the pain made against such as unlawfully convocate our lieges : and that notwithstanding thereof , there be divers persons under the name of quakers , anabaptists , and fifth-monarchy-men , avowed enemies to our lawful authority and government , whoupon specious and religious pretences , at unlawful times and places , keep frequent meetings and conventicles together : and we , and our estates of parliament , considering what hath been the cruel tenets , and bloody practises of such in former times , and what insurrections and murthers have been committed by them in our kingdome of england , within these few dayes , and of what bad consequence their meetings may prove at this time . our will is herefore , and we charge you and straitly commands : that incontinent thir our letters seen , ye passe , and in our name and authority , inhibit and discharge all meetings and conventions of the persons foresaid , upon whatsoever colour or pretext the same may be , under the pains contained in our acts of parliament , made against unlawful convocations of our lieges : and for the better preventing of such unlawful meetings , and of any prejudice may ensue thereby , we do hereby command all magistrates of our burghs , sheriffs , constables , iustices of the peace and other our publick ministers , to make exact search from time to time , in all places where any such meeting hath been , shall , or may be suspected ; and to apprehend every such person , who shall keep , or frequent these meetings , and to commit them to the next prison , therein to remain till further order be taken with them , by such as shall have our authority for that effect ; and ordains you to make publication hereof at the mercat cross of our royal burroughs , where-through none pretend ignorance thereof , as ye will answer to vs thereupon : the which to do , we commit to you , conjunctly and severally , our full power , by thir our letters , &c. given at edinburgh the 22. day of january , 1661. and of our reign the twelfth year . a. primerose , cls. reg. the muses holocaust: or, a new burnt-offering to the tvvo great idols of presbytery and anabaptism. by samuel holland holland, samuel, gent. 1662 approx. 6 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a44170 wing h2438a estc r218438 99830033 99830033 34480 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a44170) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 34480) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2031:9) the muses holocaust: or, a new burnt-offering to the tvvo great idols of presbytery and anabaptism. by samuel holland holland, samuel, gent. [6] p. printed for the author, london : m dc lxii. [1662] title page and text printed in red and black. in verse. the final leaf is blank. copy has an "i" added in ms. to change the roman numeral imprint date on the title page. verses in ms. on recto of final leaf. reproduction of the original in the trinity college library, cambridge. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng presbyterians -england -poetry -early works to 1800. anabaptists -england -poetry -early works to 1800. 2004-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-09 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-10 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2004-10 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the muses holocaust : or , a new burnt-offering to the tvvo great idols of presbytery and anabaptism . by samvel holland . london : printed for the author . mdclxiii . the muses holocaust . be the tongue blister'd that shall dare prefer the cause and courage of john presbyter ; and the quill lighter then a feather thought , that such phanatick madness shall be taught , as praise that cap of zeal , which lined comes , without with cruel , and within with thrums . see where the rabble , with their lugging ears , and arm'd with black sedition , appears in knots of wilde rebellion , like a bed of hissing serpents with contagion fed : and that their followers may the more adore them , their godly leaders walk in cloaks before them . for since sedition did this age provoke , jack presbyter hath ever chose the cloak ; and makes that garment at all times to be a signal cloak of his hypocrisie . they have a cloak for every thing they do ; a cloak i' th' street , a cloak i' th' pulpit too . a cloak is all their wear ; and if they can , they 'll have a cloak to cozen god and man. the cloak doth act more mischief in the town , then all the long addresses of the gown . 't was in his cloak that jenkins up did cry 'gainst our late king another crucifie : 't was in his cloak he seem'd another man , and finely learnt to turn the cat i' th' pan : 't was in his cloak returning to his fever , that now he seems as fiery hot as ever . 't was in his cloak that baxter loud did bawl , beloved listen , and hear baxters call : the bishops of their mitres dispossest , will breed the saints an everlasting rest. 't was in his cloak that calamy did spit against saint pauls his excremental wit ; and waspish watson did so loudly rore , and call'd his mother , englands church , a whore. 't was in his cloak that carter pray'd , to gain the sacred scepter from his soveraign ; and mov'd his hearers all , like true pres-byters , to fight against the bishops and their mitres . 't was in his cloak that nye late down did crie the cross , the surpliss , and the liturgie ; and hop'd ere long his friends would have the power to be again possessed of the tower : that so the swarming sectaries might rule from neerest thames unto the farthest thule . and if they cannot do it , may those elves help in new-england , and then hang themselves . this is the sense of all , this is the ayer of every true-born presbyterian prayer . with these is high the anabaptist flown , who will have no religion but his own : they will conspire with all the pow'rs of hell , to bid both order , truth and peace farewel . from such and all as are so refractory , and care for none , but their own directory , good lord protect us ! let flames joyn with flames , t' abate their numbers , and devour their names : not their church-buckets fill'd with sisters tears , nor dropping clouds of jealousies and fears , ( could it rain water fast as bloud before ) shall longer save this presbyterian whore. smectymnuus be henceforth the hang-mans name , and from his last dissecting hand take fame . may all together in one fire be brent , with buchanans and knoxes testament ; and all rot with them , that would tumble down the rising mitre , and the stablish'd crown . amen . finis . the traytors unvailed, or a brief account of that horrid and bloody designe intended by those rebellious people, known by the names of anabaptists and fifth monarchy being upon sunday the 14th. of april 1661. in newgate on purpose to oppose his majesties person and laws. 1661 approx. 8 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a84389 wing e606 thomason e1087_10 estc r208541 99867486 99867486 119799 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a84389) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 119799) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 162:e1087[10]) the traytors unvailed, or a brief account of that horrid and bloody designe intended by those rebellious people, known by the names of anabaptists and fifth monarchy being upon sunday the 14th. of april 1661. in newgate on purpose to oppose his majesties person and laws. ellis, thomas, attributed name. 7, [1] p. s.n.], [london : printed in the year, 1661. place of publication from wing. annotation on thomason copy: "apr. 18". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng conspiracies -england -early works to 1800. anabaptists -early works to 1800. fifth monarchy men -early works to 1800. treason -england -early works to 1800. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-01 john pas sampled and proofread 2008-01 john pas text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the traytors vnvailed , or a brief and true account of that horrrid and bloody designe intended by those rebellious people , known by the names of anabaptists and fifth monarchy being vpon svnday the 14 th . of april 1661. in nevvgate on purpose to oppose his majesties person and laws . printed in the year , 1661. the traytors vnvailed or a brief relation of that horrid and bloody design intended by the anabaptists and fifth monarchy . it is unknown to all well disposed christian people of the late traiterous insurections and actions in broadstreet , and woodstreet , and had not the lord out of his great goodness timely supprest them , it would certainely ( accordingly to their intents ) involved the whole nation in warrs and blood , but finding their devillish plots not to take effect , thoy have ever since ( for the beter promoting the same ) held conference and correspondency with their deluding spirits , and taking and observing all opertunities of advantage for accomplishing their bloody designs , in a secreet & obscure manner , they sent divers letters of advice and counsel from one to the other at several places , which was to give them notice that on munday last ( at the time when his majesty should be at windsor according to his majesties ancestors custome ) they should unanimosly meet to carry on their work by violence of the sword , but gods great mercy attending his majesty and this poor nation , providentially gave foreknowledge thereof to his majesty and counsel , to prevent the same , his majesty counselled with god in his prayers and meditations , and afterwards according to gods decree and his honorable counsels advice and serious judgment , he sent his special warrant to examine all suspicious houses for papers , letters &c. the which was accordingly executed in several houses by one of the lord general monks captains , with his officers and souldiers , and to their satisfaction divers letters were taken which were received from several persons of great concernment , and large returns in folio of most horrid counsel , their seditious sects in all places both neer and remote , the persons having them in custodywere immediatly secured , but to further prosecute their good success and future hopes of timely preventing their cursed atcheivments , the noble captain made it his next only business to go to new-gate were very many and dangerous persons are together , and therefore thought that there they should be better satisfied and obtain a further and more ample discovery , by taking more of the like letters of black advice ( which according happened ) the particulars in the searching as followes , being observed by a spectator who was so much in danger of his own life that he committed his soul to god and never thought to go out again alive , but their included mallice and desire of blood was by providence unexpectedly and mercifully diverted . about three of the clock , at which time they were at the height of their pretended devotion in several roomes and corners of the house , at which convention the captain judged it the best opportunity to go up . he demanded the keepers to admitt him and his assistance up , by shewing them his authority and intent , of his loving the person . who was first acquainted with the business and the authority thereof was mr. knolls , a prisoner speaker to the anabaptists , who civilly requested to shew what letters & papers he had in his custody , but contrary to the civillity used to him , he insollently disobeyed his majesties warrant , and violently resisted the search both by his hands & tongue , first crying out to his associats that they should secure the keepers and take away the keys , mr. hicks a turnkey would moderatly have pacified and rationally discust the inconveniency that would but follow like a head-strong people void of reason , carried him up the staires upon the leads , and had not his much intreaty preserved him , they had imediately threw him off into the street ; some others in the intrim beat one of the keepers , threw him down staires , took away the keys and kept them ; others were upon one of the turnkeys who was basely misused , and had not some pirsoners that lay for debt secured him , they had certainly ended his daies by a stab , their mallice was so invetterate towards him , however with one voice they all cryed lets through the rogue off from the leads . the captaine in the time of this hurly burly was below , expecting a civill reply of his demandes , but notice being given him by the uproares he with his sword drawn assisted by another turnkey who at that punct of time came with the right worshipfull sheriff boulton to see the warrant executed hearing of their perverness to it , they went to squench the fire whilst it was in its begining that though they saw them appear & the sheriff comanded mr knowlls to go down into his chamber , and obey his majesties orders , yet still they persisted in their folly , by securing the captain in their own chamber , and forcibly knowlls laid hands on mr. lowman with a great stick as if it were purposely prepared , and the rest of his companions seized themselves upon other , but mr. lowman being not at all daunted with the assistance of his prisoners , by degrees overpowered them , and afterwards for present punishment he committed iohn smith into the hoale ( who is a convicted person for the late murder committed by the insurrection in broadstreet ) and was one of the most violent in the house being desirous by his attempts to have stopt mr. lowmans breath by laying his cruel merciless , and bloody hands upon his throat . mr. portman was also put into the hoale , being a chief and principal actor , and desperately strook all that did oppose him or his fellows , and had it not happily fell out that the fift monarchy men were all lockt in their chamber where they were at their meeting , it had certainly been a terrible and cruel day to all that had been in their way . but finding their plots were discovered and their hopes frustrated of their desired ends which should have been brought forth the next day . then to preserve their decaying reputation , and respects and good words amongst the common people , they suddainly sent their messengers abroad to make complaint first , to have their guilt seem less . but on purpose to undeceive the people , and to give them better satisfaction of the reason and truth thereof i have taken the pains as to acquaint all that are desirous of the same , that they may no longer be deceived by their specious pretences , for the fift monarchy men are a people that a true character of their malitious principles cannot be demonstrated , but their actions make them appear to be a blood-thirsty and rebellious people against god and the king. whom god preserve . anti-quakerism, or, a character of the quakers spirit, from its original and first cause. / written by a pious gentleman that hath been thirteen years amongst the separatists to make observations, and is now returned home with a full intent to lay open the whole mystery of iniquity, in unvailing the whore, that men may no longer drink of the wine of her fornications; he hath vowed a single life, and given himself up wholly to the exercises of the mind. and here he hath described the spirit of quakerism. 1. being a precise puritan. 2. an anabaptist. 3. a seeker. 4. a ranter. 5. a quaker, and indeed what not, all things, and nothing. by which character every man may in some measure see the deceitfulness of his own imagination and be careful, and watch himself accordinly [sic]. younge, richard. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a75478 of text r211441 in the english short title catalog (thomason 669.f.22[57]). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 10 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a75478 wing a3507 thomason 669.f.22[57] estc r211441 99870168 99870168 163639 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a75478) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 163639) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 247:669f22[57]) anti-quakerism, or, a character of the quakers spirit, from its original and first cause. / written by a pious gentleman that hath been thirteen years amongst the separatists to make observations, and is now returned home with a full intent to lay open the whole mystery of iniquity, in unvailing the whore, that men may no longer drink of the wine of her fornications; he hath vowed a single life, and given himself up wholly to the exercises of the mind. and here he hath described the spirit of quakerism. 1. being a precise puritan. 2. an anabaptist. 3. a seeker. 4. a ranter. 5. a quaker, and indeed what not, all things, and nothing. by which character every man may in some measure see the deceitfulness of his own imagination and be careful, and watch himself accordinly [sic]. younge, richard. 1 sheet ([1] p.) printed for the author, london : anno dom. 1659. [i.e., 1660] "a pious gentleman" = richard younge. cf. wing and foot of page which reads: the author hath written a book, which is a tract of his thirteen years experience: entituled, a leaf from the tree of life. and are to be sold by daniel white, at the seven stars in pauls church-yard, and by some that sell this paper. partly in verse "i have been in the valley of siddim". annotation on thomason copy: "jan. 5." reproduction of the original in the british library. eng society of friends -early works to 1800. puritans -early works to 1800. anabaptists -early works to 1800. dissenters, religious -england -early works to 1800. a75478 r211441 (thomason 669.f.22[57]). civilwar no anti-quakerism, or, a character of the quakers spirit, from its original and first cause. written by a pious gentleman that hath been thirte younge, richard 1659 1745 15 0 0 0 0 0 86 d the rate of 86 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2008-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-09 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-11 megan marion sampled and proofread 2008-11 megan marion text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion anti-quakerism , or , a character of the quakers spirit , from its original and first cause . written by a pious gentleman that hath been thirteen years amongst the separatists to make observations , and is now returned home with a full intent to lay open the whole mystery of iniquity , in unvailing the whore , that men may no longer drink of the wine of her fornications ; he hath vowed a single life , and given himself up wholly to the exercises of the mind . and here he hath described the spirit of quakerism . 1. being a precise puritan . 2. an anabaptist . 3. a seeker . 4. a ranter . 5. a quaker , and indeed what not , all things , and nothing . by which character every man may in some measure see the deceitfulness of his own imagination and be careful , and watch himself accordinly . i have been in the valley of siddim there i met with a ranter , a seeker , a quaker , a puritan , and he told me from the light within all things that ever i did was sinne . he said also by the same light , god dwelled with him by his spirit , from these two premises i resume these are the spirits that do presume . and now since they presumptious be , i 'l take the same authority ; for reason wills that i defend my life and soul , being my own friend . and this without all fear i say , they lyers are , that every way , there is nothing that they say is true , as i will demonstrate to you . and first i 'le them anatomize , in divers shapes of their own guize ; then to their conscience i will go , to see if this be true or no . and first he was a puritan , wareing short hair and little band ; then i thy conscience did extol , till thou wouldst ware no band at all . then thou foundst fault with singing psalms , and said they were as black as charms ; but now in singing you delight ; songs of your own made by the spirit thy custome was to fast and pray , honour thou didst the sabbath day ; but now thou hast got a better light opening thy shop that day for spite . sermons at length thou wouldst not hear , because the minister would sware ; but now you sware and curse down-right is this the effects of your spirit . at length you had a call come out , i will be your father without doubt ; then could not you no longer stay , but left the church without delay . then he turned anabaptist . then you together took in hand , to build christ house upon the sand , and still you want the corner stone , i mean jesus that is christ alone . his word you know you did promise , and there you found the word baptize , you said the meaning of 't must be needs meant of water , baptisme . then did you muse and cast your care all for an administraetor , but here in england none was seen , that used ought but sprinkling . at length you heard men say , that there was saints in silesia , who ever since the apostles time had kept this ordinance pure , divine . thither alass you sent in haste , and thus you did some treasure w●ste , but wh●n your mess●ngers came there , they were deceiv'd as we are here . but this they told you in good deed , that they of baptism stood in need , and for a present remedy , with prayers they to heaven did cry . then did they with a joynt consent do that o● which you now repent , authorize one them to bap●iz● , thus this fine cheat they did devise . the original of the anabaptists . they said that you should thus do , and god would own it they did know , and you their councel simply took , because baptize was writ in book . he turned seeker and ranter . and thus at length you your selves baptiz'd , tell you ano●her sect devis'd ; you will say now ord na●ces are low , god doth not own them you do know . then you assemblies quite forsook , having learn'd your lessons without book , and fo● a time you ●orment were , till you discern'd the morning star . he turned quaker , and nothing . which as a light in you did shine , which light you said w●s christ divine , and now you say he dwells in you , whatsoever you say i know is true . thus have you trac'd and run division , in your confused mad religion ; a great deal more i could you shew , but this is en●ugh for once to know . and now you see our trade is gone , is it long of god , or long of man , if caus'd by m●n'tis thee and i , let us repent then speedily . and do thou do what i have done , if future evils , thou wilt shun , return to church again , i say , there thou maist learn to sing and pray . return to church again with speed , lest obstinacy doth thy torment breed , for if-that faction have his head , blood in our streets must needs be shed . it is good reasoning , inter argumenta hominum , amongst the arguments of men , to draw conclusions from such premises which the respondant or adversaries that are to answer do own . the puritan spirit was the spirit of quakerism , in the first degree , which thing wise men knew full well , which made them so much i●de●vour the suppressing of them , though howbeit they took not the right way , or else the spirit was too strong , and had gotten too much hold both in the magistrates and vulgar , by reason whereof it brake into these extreames , the men of those times were too precise , critical , and exact , which is an infallible sign of relig●ous dotage , or melancholly : see burton on religious melancholly , they took offence without cause ; and i think now the devil , is in them , for they will not be pleased with amends , though they have got all , for their desires are as deep and as large as hell . they sing spiritual songs and hymns of their own devising , and force their brethren to sing with them , under penalty of their censure , which in their opinion is little less then damnation . they bitterly curse and banne all that any way differ from their opinion , and say , they have authority from god to open their shops on the lords day , even that day of which they had once so high an esteem . they applie that text worthy of all consideration , which is by saint paul meant of universal sinne unto themselves , with opposition to others , cor. 6.17 . and make as if they onely were the alone people of god . the word jesus , signifies a saviour , christ , a king , so that christ jesus is such a king that doth save ; but their christ within leads all into destruction , and hurries them upon impossibilities contrary to law and reason , witness their new catalogue of martyrs , printed in red letters like blood , because by the simple they would forsooth be understood as martyrs . the word baptism is an ambiguous term , take heed how you understand it , or make any particular application thereof . they sent up and down the world for a man to baptize them , but they found none , but such as had baptized themselves . in england there was some in the practise of sprinckling , but those the d●ppers , to my knowledge , did reject from communion with them on this very ground . they forsook assemblies , and lay dormant , and so imagined a new gospel , and a new christ within them , the devil take him for me , for i am too much under his power ; then they went to work afresh to get disciples , and i think they have hit it ; for i know , country-men , what i say , that three parts of you that are religiously affected at this day , are possessed with that humour which will make you quakers , if you take not great heed . the quakers did preach , that it was a sinne to wear bands or band-strings . and now my christian friends , and country-men , for the lords sake take heed to your selves , be wise and warned by my harms ; for faction , i thank god , hath undone me , as to my outward estate , in my outward man ; but i have seen the bottom of their bottomless pit ; and beseech you take unto you the whole armour of god , put on fortitude and faith , clothe your selves with zeal , as with a cloak , but for the lord sake let your feet be shod with the preparations of the gospel of peace . follow my directions , and under heaven i will fell these spirits , and then will war and tumults cease , and keep alwayes in memory the words of our lord , matthew 26.41 . mark 13.37 . the author hath written a book , which is as a tract of his thirteen years experience : entituled , a leaf from the tree of life . and are to be sold by daniel white , at the seven stars in pauls church-yard , and by some that sell this paper . london , printed for the author , anno dom 1659. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a75478e-30 hos. 13.9 . to you that are called anabaptists in the nation of ireland teachers and people, who profess your selves to be the church of christ; this is the word of the lord god unto you. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a30553 of text r214915 in the english short title catalog (wing b6042). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 14 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a30553 wing b6042 estc r214915 99826961 99826961 31373 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30553) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 31373) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1882:9) to you that are called anabaptists in the nation of ireland teachers and people, who profess your selves to be the church of christ; this is the word of the lord god unto you. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. 7, [1] p. s.n., [london : 1657] caption title. signed at end: e. burrough. imprint from wing. reproduction of the original in the friends house library, london. eng anabaptists -ireland -early works to 1800. anabaptists -controversial literature -early works to 1800. a30553 r214915 (wing b6042). civilwar no to you that are called anabaptists in the nation of ireland teachers and people, who profess your selves to be the church of christ; this is burrough, edward 1657 2836 4 0 0 0 0 0 14 c the rate of 14 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-02 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-07 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-07 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion to you that are called anabaptists in the nation of ireland teachers and people , who profess your selves to be the church of christ ; this is the word of the lord god unto you. you are gathered and not in the spirit of jesus , nor in the light of christ , nor in the power of god ; you are separated but not in the truth , nor in the ground , for the defiled and uncircumcised nature of the world stands alive in you , & you are in the uncrucified estate , in the dominion of death , & under the power of sin : pride , covetousness , hypocrisie , vainglory , and the workes of the flesh abound among you ; to the light in you which christ hath lightned you with all , i doe speake , which shall beare witness for me herein ; and against you in the day of the lord which suddenly comes upon you and all the world , who are not in the light and power of god : you are bowing down to the jmage in the fained hippocrisie , of what the saints injoyed and witnessed in the life & power of god : you never came truly through the ministration of moses which reveales wrath upon the uncircumcised , nor you never came to the ministration of iohn , who is a burning light and brings down the mountaines , and prepares the way of the lord before his face , but you are in your taken out observances from the letter , as the jews were , but gainsayes and opposes the life of god as they did , and in that nature you stand which put christ to death , who doth not own the light whereby he lighteth every man that comes into the world , though him & his words and ordinances you profess , and performes your own immitations , in your fleshly wills , and not the worship of god in the spirit , and in the truth , for the truth you are strangers too : which the divell nor the wicked abides not in , and are alienated in your mindes from the way and councell of the living god , and hath but the name that you live ; and are dead in trespasses & in sins , and the jmage of god doth not live in you , and you have but the forme of godliness in your sensuall understandings , in that wisdome which is divelish ; & your dead mindes are exercised in the forme without the power , in vaine shewes in set dayes and in set observances , glorying in the flesh , seeking and receiving praise of men , and is but as the jew , outward whose house of worship and sacrifice is left desolate and you know not the pure moveings and leadings of the pure spirit of the lord god to rule you , and to teach you in the way of peace , because you doe not beleeve in the light which christ jesus hath lightned you and every man in the world withall , but doth gainsay it , and strive against it , in your high thoughts , and imaginations to your own condemnation in the sight of god : who are wise in your own conceits , and righteous in your own eye , and measures your selves and not with the rule of judgement . but this is the condemnation of you , & al the world that light is come & hath shined in your darke hearts , but darknes and the workes thereof is loved rather then the light , you say you are not of the world ; but what doe you differ from it , in doctrine , or in worship , or in conversation : doth not pride and vanity , and selfe seeking , rule in many of you ? yea , to your shame might i mention the abominations which i have seen among you ; who often beheld your devotions , to the unknown god , and was an eye witness of your idolitries , and even while you profest to be gathered out of the world , you are wallowing in its filthiness , and drinking deeply of its polutions , in envie , in wrath , and in bitterness , and in all eivill , not like members of the body of christ ; but may justly be judged many of you to be the sinagogues of satan ; who say you are members of christ and are not , for you are tried and are found wanting before the lord , and your pastors & teachers , they goe before you and are examples in iniquity , unto you , and are guilty of your transgression , and you of theirs , for you hold them up , and loves to have these things so ; and they through lies , and lightness causes you to erre . and so the blinde leads the blinde till you both fall into the ditch of perdition : and they may be ashamed , of you who are in ignorance , and blindness of heart , w●o have not learned the way of truth and righteousness , nor come to the knowledge of god ; nor denied your selves and sins , and you may be ashamed of them , who are as they that feed themselves with the fat , and not the flocke , & that through covetousness by fained words , makes marchandise of soules : and goes for gifts , and rewards , as balaam , and while they condemne others for hirelings , are manyfold guilty themselves therein , & to be condemned & judged , with the light of christ jesus ; witness some of your chiefest pastors and teachers , at dublin , at limbricke , and at corke , and at many places else where in ireland ; some having a hundred pounds a yeare , & others more or less , to their shame let this be told , and to their condemnation in the light of god , & all that know him who are hippocritticall in crieing against others for that whereof themselves are guilty , and are an ill savor and a reproach to some of their own brethren ; and a shame to religion and to all that profess faith in the gospell of christ ; and are out of the example , of all the appostles and ministers of christ : who freely recived and freely gave , and did not seeke and receive maintenance from the powers of the earth , but preached the gospell , and lived of the gospell , & eate of the fruit of the vinyard which they had planted . but your pastors are in the example of the false brethren , who taught for filthy lucar and with faigned words beguiled the simple , and while you have been zealous to pull drown the episcopall priests ; you have exalted your selues in their seates , some of you in the same temples ; with large aditions ( by oppressions ) to their maintenances , and hath the wages of unrighteousness as balaam , and goes for gifts & rewards ; and is not this a shame to you to be laid to your charge , appearing more vile in deepe hippocrisie then your predecessors , in publique prophaness ; to the light in your consciences i speake , which shall witness this to be true in the presence of god , who condemns al your workes and worships in that nature acted : who worships in your carnall mindes , in the idols temples , some of you as the priests of the world doe , upholding the worship of the beast , under another name , & you are as bitter and envious , in blind zeale as the prophane world : against any that differs from you in iudgement , or that comes among you to declare the word of the lord ; witness at dublin , kilkenny , corke , and else where , where the servants of the lord were halled out of your assemblies and evill entreated , with mockings and cruell words , to your shame for ever may this be rehersed : who while you profess a separation from the world , are one with it in wickedness , as in lieing , slandering , false accusing , reproaching and promise breaking , witness at waterford and else where ; whose lies and eivill speeches , might evidently be declared , to your shame , and of those with many other of your abominations , which i have seen in you , i am a witness against , and your iniquities are not found upon secret search only : but openly in all those things , & hereby in the presents of the liveing god i doe warne you , of the righteous judgements of the just god , who hath seen and taken notice of your hippocrisie & naughtyness , and desemulation with god and men , and that uprightness which once was in you , have you betrayed for selfe ends and earthly intrests , & have set up your selves in places of honor , and are not in the light nor life of god , but enemies to the light of iesus christ ; where with he lighteth every man that comes into the world ; & you are out of church order , in the confusion of your own hearts , in divers oppinions , and not of one heart and minde , but stumbles at the light ; and rejects the foundation , and hath hearts and cannot understand : your understandings being shut up from the knowledge of the truth , gainsaying the councell of the lord in your sensuall wisdome , and opposing the way of truth to your own confounding , witness at waterford , corke , and other places , where some of you were taken in your own craftiness , to your shame , when you set your selves against the lord , and ioyned your selves with the wicked , & be came one with the priests , in opposing the life and power of truth , as herod and pilot , became friends in the persecuting of jesus ; where you uttered forth much blindness , and parverted the scriptures to your own confoundings , as many can witness , now these things i write , not altogether to shame you , but rather to reprove them in you ; that you may reade and consider , and repent and may turne from your dead idoll worship , and hippocritticall teachers and false wayes , to serve and worship the living god in the newness of the spirit , and in the power of truth in it selfe , and noe more may seeke the kingdome of god in observances , for it comes not with outward observances saith christ : but the kingdom of heaven is within you , to be revealed in the light and truth in all that beleeve in the light of the world . therefore be cause you are gathered to gether , and not by the spirit of the lord , nor in the light , you shall be broken and your alters of immittations , and vaine traditions , shall be thrown downe and you into confusion shall be turned , for you have the saints words , and practises , but the life you are without ; and the spirit that gave forth the scriptures you have not received , with which the scripture is only understood : but you take on things in your own wills , and performes a sacrifice which is not regarded of the lord . how proud are some of you , and how vaine glorious , and how covetous and selfe seeking , of the glory of this world , giving and seeking honor of men , not like members of christs body , but of an harlot ; not like them that take up the dayly cross of christ , or that deny the world : but as them that seeke after it ; and layes up treasure in it , who seekes the praises of men , as much as the praise of god ; and gives and receives honor one of another ; as the gentiles , and seekes not the honor that comes from god only ; and so are out of the covenant of life , and out of the bond of peace , in strife & contention , and false oppinions , and judgements , and out of the power of god in the forme and likeness of things without life , professing the scriptures in the spirit of error , and your ministry be gets into the forme and not into the power of righteousness , and differs not from the ministry of the world in the ground , but is death and reapes not the life , to bring any unto god . woe unto you hippocrits , the mighty day of the lord , is coming upon you , and your desolation comes as an armed man , the witness of god in your consciences is mine , and to it i speake , it beares my voyce and shall answer for me , and against you , in the day of recompence , therefore to the light of christ jesus , which he hath given you , turne in your mindes , your workes of darkness it will reprove and make manifest , and be not stout hearted neither count your selves unworthy of eternall life : come downe and sit in the dust , and cease from your idols , and from your imitations , and lay down your crownes at the feet of jesus ; who is the light of the world , and lighteth every man that comes into the world ; if you love it ▪ you will bring your deeds to it ; it will let you see your owne conditions , into which you are fallen from the life of god , through disobedience and are in the transgression and not reconciled to god ; for that enmity stands in you against him , above the seed of god , & the dayly cross you doe despise , and are in your plasures and vanities , and knowes not the covenant of peace and rest , where the saints dwell ; wherefore bow down your uncircumsised eare , to the light ▪ and let the lord god search your hearts with his light , and it will discover to you the way in which you ought to walke ; and that which you ought to denie : and this light is your way to christ and to the baptisme of christ , where the cleane water is received , which washeth a way sin , and the bread of life is received which nurisheth up unto god , and unto eternall life ; & in the light you will receive the true satisfaction to your soules , and of the lord you will receive teaching , in the spirit from him ; who is that minister of the covenant of life , and here is your way out of the world ; and into the pure separation from its wayes , and workes , and nature , into the fellowship of christ jesus : and one with another which is in the light , and in the truth , which noe uncleane thing hath any part in ; but the liars , and the proude , and the covetous , and the vaine glorious , shall have their portion in the lake , that burnes in the indignation of god ▪ wherefore , awake awake , ye that sleep in the darke night of ignorance ; heare ye deafe , and looke ye blinde , the day of the lord cometh upon you , and the pretious from the vile will he separate ; by his everlasting word of judgement , and in love to all your soules ; this is a warning from the lord and is the word of the lord god unto you , whether you will heare or forebeare , and with the light in all your consciences , this shall be witnessed when your judgement is read , and remember you are warned in your life time . by a friend and lover of all your soules , but a witness against all your deceits . e : bvrrovgh . to the right honorable, the high court of parliament, sitting at westminister the illegal and immodest petition of praise-god barbone, anabaptist and leather-seller of london. barbon, praisegod, 1596?-1679. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a30915 of text r211623 in the english short title catalog (wing b756). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 6 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a30915 wing b756 estc r211623 17758496 ocm 17758496 106587 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30915) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 106587) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1626:51) to the right honorable, the high court of parliament, sitting at westminister the illegal and immodest petition of praise-god barbone, anabaptist and leather-seller of london. barbon, praisegod, 1596?-1679. 1 broadside. printed by hen. mason ..., london : 1660. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. eng anabaptists -england. great britain -politics and government -1649-1660. great britain -history -commonwealth and protectorate, 1649-1660. a30915 r211623 (wing b756). civilwar no to the right honorable, the high court of parliament, sitting at westminster: the illegal and immodest petition of praise-god barbone, anaba [no entry] 1660 1025 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2008-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-09 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-11 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2008-11 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion to the right honorable , the high court of parliament , sitting at westminster : the illegal and immodest petition of praise-god barbone , anabaptist and leather-seller of london ; most impudently sheweth , that your petitioner hath lived a great while , and indeed long enough to have had more wit , and more honesty ; that satan finding his head empty of all goodness , did one day stuff it with heretical notions and whimsies , even as full as men are wont to stuff fillets of veal with sweet herbs , that the protector called him to be a parliament man , which so fatten'd his meagre ambition , that he hath had ever since a very itching desire to be medling with state affaires . that he findes as long as england is governed by sober and good magistrates , he is like to get nothing more then his shop will afford him : that the two largest pooles of troubled waters for self-seeking men to fish in , are distraction in the state , and unsettlement in the church . that your petitioner likes no government of a single person , unless it be that which was set up in munster , and to such a one he prayeth a longer continuance . that religion , conscience , and morality have bin now us'd long enough in the world , and that 't is fit there should be some new innovation invented to succeed them . that it is time now , since he hath got nothing all this while , but onely an order to be comptroller of haberdashers-hall , to be stirring and looking out for portions for his children with hard names . that as he is a leather-seller , he ought to see all the adversaries of his lunatick devotion , flead and soak'd in the tan-fat of oppression , that he may have their skins to sell to all those drummers that shall have occasion to march before the saints to the valley of jehosaphat . that if truth and righteousness do ever kiss each other in england , he hopes , and it is his earnest desire that it may onely be a parting kiss . your petitioner also further sheweth , that it is not , norever was the custom of the anabaptist , to give an accompt of their faith , or to know what they profess , and therfore he he further sheweth , that he holds that feake is a very able divine because he is mad , and hath a demoniack faculty of alwayes raving against the powers in being ; so that when you see him in the church , you would think him to be the mad man among the tombes . here is onely the difference between that man and your petitioners patriarch , that christ dispossessed the former , but if he should offer the other such a courtesie , he would think himself wiser and more sanctified than his savior , and scorn the motion . and from his example your petitioner further sheweth , that if there be a factious , unsanctified , illiterate heretick in the world , he is one , and will so continue as long as he lives ; unless your honors will give him a thousand pound a year to turn christian . in consideration of which premises , your petitioner humbly prays , that the mystery of jesuitism , and the works of ignatius loyola may be read in churches , in stead of what is now more commonly used , whereby the people may be instructed in all sorts of knavery one towards another , and in all sorts of rebellion and disobedience to their superiors . that the commandments may be taken down from the end of the chancel in every church , and the heads of the cracovian catechism placed in the room thereof , till the said churches shall be pull'd down . that as soon as may be all churches in england may be pull'd down , and the materials thereof given to your petitioner toward the repair of his windows , and setting up a new sign ; and that your petitioner may be forced to give no further accompt of the sums so gathered ; neither can this destruction be unlawful for that st. paul being a leading apostle , and his church being fallen , all other churches ought to be made to follow the example of his . that all schools and universities be demolished , and their revenues given to buy us more armes , in stead of those which were lately taken away , that we may be in a readiness when we shall be call'd forth to butcher our enemies . that all divines and learned men in england may be massacred , and thrown to the fowls of the air , that we may be no more troubled with their syllogisms , to the utter hinderance of all out important designs ; and that all books may be burnt , except nailors , feaks , and rogers's works , and larner's hymns , wherein the unity of christ and his church is most sweetly chanted forth , to the tune of jookies-march . that there may be a free toleration of bawdy-houses , because your petitioners house looks now so like one , the windows being all broken ; and that none but anabaptists may go to them , for the propogation of our weak faction . that general supplications may be made , for the continuance of satans reign a thousand years longes then is set down in the revelation . and lastly , that you would confer upon your petitioner six hundred pound per annum , in stead of his comptrollership which he hath now lost , to the great impoverishment of him and his family . and your petitioner shall ever pray , &c. london , printed by hen , mason , in the year of restauration . 1660. mr. baxter baptiz'd in bloud, or, a sad history of the unparallel'd cruelty of the anabaptists in new-england faithfully relating the cruel, barbarous and bloudy murther of mr. baxter, an orthodox minister, who was kill'd by the anabaptists, and his skin most cruelly flead from his body : with an exact account of all the circumstances and particularities of this barbarous murther / published by his mournfull brother benjamin baxter. baxter, benjamin. 1673 approx. 16 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a26844 wing b1170 estc r92 12304556 ocm 12304556 59208 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a26844) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 59208) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 200:4) mr. baxter baptiz'd in bloud, or, a sad history of the unparallel'd cruelty of the anabaptists in new-england faithfully relating the cruel, barbarous and bloudy murther of mr. baxter, an orthodox minister, who was kill'd by the anabaptists, and his skin most cruelly flead from his body : with an exact account of all the circumstances and particularities of this barbarous murther / published by his mournfull brother benjamin baxter. baxter, benjamin. parker, samuel, 1640-1688. savill, laurance. [2], 6 p. [s.n.], london : 1673. "this fictitious narrative of cruelty in new england, designed to do harm to the baptist cause, had its origin in england. its authorship at the time was attributed to laurance savill who admitted the publishing of it"--jcb lib. cat. pre-1675. attributed to samuel parker. cf. halkett & laing (2nd ed.). reproduction of original in british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anabaptists -new england -controversial literature. 2004-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-12 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-06 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2006-06 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion mr. baxter baptiz'd in bloud , or , a sad history of the unparallel'd cruelty of the anabaptists in new-england . faithfully relating the cruel , barbarous , and bloudy murther of mr. baxter an orthodox minister , who was kill'd by the anabaptists , and his skin most cruelly flead off from his body . with an exact account of all the circumstances and particularities of this barbarous murther . published by his mournfull brother benjamin baxter living in fen-church-street , london . with allowance . london , printed in the year , 1673. a sad history of m. baxters bloudy and cruel death by the anabaptists . could any man believe that phanatick fury had such power to impell and force any that pretend to that sacred name of christians , to perpetrate such villanies which the myrmidons and scythians in the midst of barbarism it self never heard of ? but it s a maxim in philosophy , corruptio optimi est pessima , the best things corrupted are the worst ; so as the profession of christianity is a most sacred thing , the doctrine of the gospel a most holy rule , the authour of our religion an exemplar and pattern of meekness ; so when christians renounce this sacred profession , lay aside this holy gospel , and abrenuntiate christ the pattern of meekness , they soon become the most desperate villains in the world ; as may be instanc'd in julian the apostate , and sergius the associate of mahomet , and compiler of the alcoran . and we daily see that among the turks none are such implacable persecutors of captive-christians as renegade-protestants . when i seriously consider these things , i forbear to wonder at the great and desperate villanies perpetrated by the anabaptists those renegade-christians , who deny baptism that initiating ordinance and first sacrament of christianity . dares any man affirm the anabaptists to be christians ? for how can they be christians who deny christning , deride christs institution of baptism , and scoffingly call it baby-sprinkling , and in place thereof substitute their prophane booby-dipping ? but what need words be multiplyed when deeds cry out so loud ? and are not such unparallel'd villanies enough to un-christian the stoutest professors in the world ? mr. josiah baxter in the year 1661. was sollicited with much importunity by some virginia merchants to leave england , and imbarque for virginia ; he condescended to their requests , not upon the account of any earthly concern , but because he thought in those new plantations they might not be so well provided of labourers in the lord's vineyard , and in this nation ( god be thanked ) there was good store both of able and painful ministers : he also propos'd to himself the effecting some good upon the indians , as he often intimated to me before his departure . he lived many years in virginia , and did much good among those people ; but seeing that his health was much impaired by his studies and labours , and that the ayr of that countrey did not at all agree with his body , he began to think of removing , and especially seeing he had such a fair opportunity as the most courteous and loving invitation of m. t. m. g. and m. o. very considerable merchants in new-england , and his ancient and intimate friends and acquaintance ; he therefore in the year 1672. with his wife and family left virginia and setled himself in a solitary house about a mile and half distant from boston : the merchants and good people of boston and the circum-jacent countrey receiv'd him with all the kindness and tenderness imaginable . he had not been long in these parts but all good christians had him in great veneration , for his great learning , his diligent preaching , and for his great zeal ; he had not been many moneths in new-england but he understood there was a notorious sectarian by name richard batt ( who formerly had been a taylor in coventry , but some two years after the happy restauration of his majesty , under pretence of a tender conscience he left coventry , and came to new-england . ) this batt was a fellow of a prodigious confidence , a good wit , a voluble tongue , and an insinuating carriage and comportment : m. baxter therefore quickly found out this fox , and was very apprehensive of his designs against christian religion for the advancement of his unchristian sect , and was also inform'd that he had already seduc'd many well-meaning people ; he thought it was now high time to oppose this son of belial , to discover from gods word the falsity of his tenets , the wickedness of his principles , and the danger of his practises , and also to confirm good christians in the truth : he therefore omitted no pains , but constantly in all his sermons evidently declared and prov'd from god's word the divine institution of baptism : he answered all objections , and most solidly proved , that the anabaptists were most sacrilegious persons , who endeavoured to rob christ's church of that holy sacrament which christ her spouse had left her ; and that the very denying of infant-baptism was a denying and renouncing of christianity it self , because christ had instituted baptism to be an initiating sacrament whereby such as embrace christian religion were to be admitted within the communion of his church , ; but these wicked sectarians deny this sacrament , and compel their adherents to renounce their baptism , and to be dipt again in their prophane waters : he told them also , that the waters wherein batt dipt his followers , were not ( as he falsly told them ) the pure waters of jordan wherein the holy sons and daughters of sion were baptiz'd , but the stinking and prophane waters of egypt wherein none but babylons children were dip't and prophan'd : he also charg'd and conjur'd all good christians if they had any care or regard for their souls , not to associate with those prophane and sacrilegious persons the anabaptists , but to consider their personal vices , their scandalous lives , and their bloudy and dangerous practices in forreign countreys , but especially in germany , holland , poland and switzerland ; and he would often instance many of their high misdemeanours in several places in england , and pressingly urge his hearers not to have any commerce or society with men of such bad principles and detestable lives . thus did this zealous minister of the gospel like a good shepherd diligently watch over the flock which christ had committed to his charge . good men were much edified by his zeal , and the weaker and wavering christians were most solidly confirm'd in the truth : but this good man thought it was not enough to edifie the orthodox , and confirm the doubtful , but he did most earnestly thirst after the conversion of misbelievers ; he was resolved to try all means for the conviction and conversion of the anabaptists themselves ; he did endeavour to bring m. batt to a personal conference ; he openly challenged him in the church , and openly protested that if he would come to a publike dispute and conference , all things should be manag'd with christian lenity and brotherly love ; but in case he should refuse such christian-like proposals of a publike conference and dispute , the whole world would conclude he was conscious to himself both of the badness of his cause , and also of his own disabilities to manage and maintain it , especially seeing he was so openly , so often , and so pressingly mov'd to it by his antagonist : batt and his partizans us'd all the artifices imaginable to avoid the conference ; and when m. baxter's friends urg'd him to it , he would reply , that disputes and debates were altogether unprofitable ; that he could finde no warrant or example in scripture of any publike dispute between parties ; that disputes in religion did but incense christians one against the other , and heighten animosities ; that they did no ways conduce to the conviction of dissenters ; and that tender consciences who had left their native countrey for religion , should endeavour for peace and mutual love , and not by disputes to divide themselves in parties , but every man sit quietly under his own vine , and enjoy the liberty of his conscience . these were the specious pretences that m. batt used to avoid the dispute ; but m. baxter was not at all satisfied with these excuses , but himself in publick , and his friends in private continually press'd them to admit a conference , where both parties might make out their tenets to prevent all miss-understandings , and that the truth might be confirm'd by the word of god. when the anabaptists saw they could shift off the business no longer , and that their own party were unsatisfied with this constant declining of the dispute , they began now to see the necessity of admitting a conference , and resolved upon the time and place . the day appointed for this solemn dispute , was jan. 10. the place was m. smith's house , the two disputants were m. baxter and m. batt : when the company were met , m. baxter desired they would all make their humble addresses to heaven , that god would grant a happy success to the whole business : when prayer was ended , they began the dispute . but not to trouble you with a tedious rehearsal of circumstances , mr. baxter managed the dispute with so much prudence , learning , and zeal , that batt and his partizans were most learnedly confuted , and by unanswerable arguments deduced from holy scripture fully convicted , and infant-baptism confirm'd : m. batt did desire that the further prosecution of the whole matter might be left for another day , for now his spirits were spent , night was drawing on , and many of the company had a great way home . hereupon the company concluded the anabaptists were worsted , and signified as much by a general out-cry , that m. batt was confuted . when the dispute was ended , every man went to his own home . in this conference the anabaptists receiv'd such a deadly blow , that many of their followers began to open their eyes , and upon the next lord's day brought their children to be baptized , which was a very pleasing sight to all good men , but a heart-breaking business to these sons of belial . m. baxter was extremely glad of this happy success , and was resolv'd to prosecute the business to the utmost , hoping now that a full conversion of that wicked party might easily be obtained . he omitted therefore no pains , but ever after made it his whole business to preach against that ungodly sect , to lay open their dangerous tenets , and also to perswade his auditors to detest that party as being men of wicked principles and worser lives . the anabaptists could by no means digest this disgrace , they now therefore consult the prince of darkness , and are resolved to , put in execution the hellish counsels that he suggests to their malicious and wicked hearts . on feb. the 4th about 11. of the clock in the fore-noon there came four ruffians to mr. baxters house ( the solitariness of the house gave too much opportunity to these hellish designs ; ) they had vizors upon their faces ; as soon as they were entred , they severely charg'd them under pain of death not to cry out , or cause any disturbance : hereupon they bound mrs. baxter and her three daughters ( for this was all mr. baxters family . ) when they had done this , they went to mr. baxter , and rudely tore the cloths from his back , when he was stript they most cruelly whipt him . then they told him he must die . he desired some time for prayer , and also that he might be permitted the liberty to speak to his wife and children before he died . all which they deny'd , and told him that 't was in vain for him to pray , or think on heaven , for that was a place appointed for the elect , but he was a vile reprobate , and from eternity destin'd to damnation . you are , said they , a most wicked villain and have done much hurt in these parts , your sins cry to heaven for vengeance , & god has sent us to punish you ; you have been an incendiary , you have endeavour'd to persecute good men with fire and saggot ; you have been a most bitter persecuter of gods servants , who have left their native country for their conscience , these poor souls you have persecuted to death , you must therefore for these ungodly practices submit your self to justice . when they had said these words , like so many hell-hounds , they most barbarously fell upon this innocent lamb , and with knives cut open his belly , and violently tore off his skin from his body . and when this holy martyr by reason of his torments cryed out in a most dreadful manner , they said , 't was excellent musick . one of them said , now the rascal is urging the point against the baptists . when they had perpetrated this most execrable villany they fled . oh! what a sad house is here ? the good man is flead alive , bleeding and crying out in the midst of his anguish and pain , the house swimming in bloud , the wife and children bound , and roaring out to see this poor martyr wallowing in his bloud , and they not able to afford him any assistance . things continued in this doleful posture until three of the clock in in the evening : and then by a signal providence one thomas smith of boston came to the house , he unbound mrs. baxter and her three daughters . the youngest of the three was so consternated with horrour , that she fell into convulsion-fits , and dyed the next day , about six of the clock at night this holy martyr dyed , and was carried to abrahams bosome . and this is a full sad account of this mans sufferings and martyrdom for his zeal for the true religion . the murtherers are not yet found , but we hope that heaven will not let such horrid villanies goe unpunish'd long . the anabaptists were examin'd , but did deny the fact , and have since publisht a writing , endeavouring thereby to perswade the world of their innocence , and that this fact was done by the indians . but 't is utterly improbable , that these assassines were indians , for had they been strangers , what needed any disguise ? and 't is more then probable , that they were some of m. batts party by their reproachful words to m. baxter : and this is the general opinion of new-england . the widdow and her daughters were forthwith removed , and kindly entertain'd at the ministers house , until further care is taken of them . i have penn'd and publisht this narrative in perpetuam rei memoriam , that the world may see the spirit and temper of these men , and that it may stand as an eternal memorial of their cruelty and hatred to all orthodox ministers . finis . a message from the spirit of the lord to the people called anabaptists and to the rest of the sects who are scattered up and down these nations and in the army, that they may read and consider why the lords controversie is against them, and that they may understand what the lords purpose is concerning them. j. c. (john collens), d. 1682. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a33892 of text r26621 in the english short title catalog (wing c5233). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 19 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a33892 wing c5233 estc r26621 09518973 ocm 09518973 43387 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a33892) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 43387) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1328:5) a message from the spirit of the lord to the people called anabaptists and to the rest of the sects who are scattered up and down these nations and in the army, that they may read and consider why the lords controversie is against them, and that they may understand what the lords purpose is concerning them. j. c. (john collens), d. 1682. 8 p. printed by m.i. for robert wilson, london : 1660. caption title. signed: john collens. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. eng anabaptists -controversial literature. dissenters, religious -great britain. a33892 r26621 (wing c5233). civilwar no a message from the spirit of the lord to the people called anabaptists, and to the rest of the sects who are scattered up and down these nat j. c 1660 3624 3 0 0 0 0 0 8 b the rate of 8 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-08 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2006-08 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a message from the spirit of the lord to the people called anabaptists , and to the rest of the sects who are scattered up and down these nations , and in the army ; that they may read and consider why the lords controversie is against them , and that they may understand what the lords purpose is concerning them . how is my bowels filled with grief , and my heart compassed about with sorrow ? wo is me for you , i am even undone for your sakes who despise reproof , and reject the counsel of the holy one ; surely you are a rebellious house , and a gain-saying people , saith the lord : all the day long have i stretched out my hands unto you , and visited you in loving kindness , and called upon you to return ; but you have stopped your ears , & hardened your hearts against me , saith the lord ; you have despised my messengers , and set at nought those who have been sent unto you , and have not regarded my word : how many of my servants have been as a sign , a by-word , and as a proverb and a reproach amongst you ? and you have not considered the evil day that is to come upon all the inhabitants of the earth : why had you not seen ? why had you not beheld my goings out in my servants in this day , even amongst all the sons of men ? how have i made them to bear the iniquities of this nation , and have suffered the rulers thereof to afflict them , even from day to day , and from time to time ? yet have they not ceased to warn this nation in their towns and villages , in their markets , and in their streets ; in their goals , and in their assemblies : how many of my servants have dyed in prison , and you have not visited them , even for the word of god , and for the testimony of jesus , even the exercise of their pure consciences ? these things have not been done in a corner , but in the sight of the sun , before your eyes , and you have not laid it to heart , but ready to add affliction to their bonds , and to join your hands with their persecutors in your bookes and pamphlets , in your preachings and pretended prayers , and in your places of justice ; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked , and persecuted , slandered & reproached my servants . wherefore thus saith the lord , i am now arisen in jealousie even for the meek of the earth , & i will be avenged of my adversaries , and plead the cause of my despised remnant , even by sword and by fire wil i plead with my enemies ; i wil overturn their counsels , and wil blow upon their whole strength , and they shall not be : but as for your parts , you have had a day , and a price put into your hands , but had not hearts to use it , you forgot me saith the lord , and did not remember the cause of the innocent , but every one sought his own honor and his own advantage , and forgot me and the cause of my people : therefore did i cause your sun to set at noon , even in the midst of your day , and did deliver you up into the hands of your enemies , even without a sword or a spear ; but by my own might and power , that you might know that i am god , and that i can do whatsoever i will in the kingdoms of men . look back now , & see if your fathers could ever remember , or the generations that are past could ever declare , that the lord did greater wonders , or that my arm hath brought stranger things to pass then your eyes have seen , & your ears have heard . but will all this awake you ? will all this make you to consider ? why do you not break off your sins by repentance , and turn unto me ( saith the lord ) that i may heal your backslidings , and wash away your sins ? what advantage is it unto you , that you set your selves against me , and devise mischief against my chosen ? what do you reap unto your selves to make peace with your enemies , to destroy my heritage ? surely this people have forgotten me , and they trust unto an arm of flesh , and a number of men , and their own fear overcomes them : can you not look back , & call to your remembrance the former dayes , how i was with you in the day of distress , how i girded you with strength , and made you a terror to your enemies , even to them unto whom now you are become servants ? and why is all this come to pass ? because you vowed a vow unto me in your distress , in that day when many enemies had compassed you about , from whom i delivered you ; but you forgot the vow & the promise that you had made , and thought not upon my cause , and the cause of my people , but rejoiced and sate down in the spoil of your enemies , and corrupted your selves with those things , until your hearts became fat , and you fill'd and corrupted with all the abominations of them which were cast out before you , so that no deliverance was wrought in the earth , but like treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously ; and so your reward must be according to your works . and now what is man that you should trust in him , or the sons of men that you should regard them , and forget me , saith the lord ? yet once more return , return unto me , that i may once more build you up , and not pluck you down ; humble your selves before me , and consider of your backslidings . consider that ye have forgotten me , and trusted to lying vanities ; and slight not the day of your visitation , neither despise my messengers , nor reproach my servants ; for he that despiseth them , despiseth me ; for they are as deare unto me as the apple of mine eye ; & whosoever riseth up against them , shall be confounded ; but he that blesseth them , shall be blessed ; because they have chosen me to be their feare , and they have not sought themselves , nor defiled themselves with the world nor its vanities , nor its fading and perishing glory but have walked before me with an upright heart in the midst of a perverse generation , amongst whom they have been as sheep for the slaughter , and have been killed even all the day long ; & who have pleaded their cause , or who have stood up in their defence ? but even all people , all professors , and all powers have combined together to root out their name , and to blot out their memorial from the earth , had not my power upheld them , and my own arm made bare for their deliverance : how often had they been devoured by the teeth of their adversaries , and by the jaws of their cruel & oppressing enemies ? had not i arisen for them , and put my hook into the nose , and my br●dle into the teeth of their enemies , and turned them backwards , confounded their enterprises , overturned rulers , and powers , and armies ; yea reproved kings for their sakes : and this let it be known unto you , he that blesseth them , shall be blessed ; but he that curseth them , shall not prosper ; for , for their sakes is all this come to pass , because i will make them the oy of many nations ; and they shall tread upon the high places of the earth . and although i may suffer them to be tryed even as gold in the fire , that they may be purged and purified , that their beauty may shine out of obscurity , & their praise may return unto me ; yet will i never forsake them , my loving kindness will i never take from them , but will return unto them in tender mercy , and in the midst of the fire will i be with them , and my power and my presence shall accompany them , and i will plead with all their adversaries , & consume their enemies , and will crown them with dominion in the sight of them that rise up against them . wherefore once more this is a call and a warning unto you to return unto me , and to seek me with your whole heart , that you may not for ever be a prey to your enemies , nor that the rod of the wicked should for ever remain upon the back of the righteous ; wherefore if you will return unto me , and consider of your backslidings an repent of the evil of your former doings , i will yet make use of you for my glory , and for my own name sake , that this aegyptian power , even pharoah & all his host may be overwhelmed , that i may cause my righteou● branch to prosper , and to spread , and to go over the earth , and to give unto my chosen the land which i have promised unto them , even a land that flows with milk and honey . therefore now arise , and put on courage and boldness , and fear not the face of your enemies ; for though they be many in number , yet i am the lord , and all power and might is in my hand : and every one of you make war in righteousness against the enemies of your own souls which are within you , ( to wit ) the lusts that warrs in your members , and take the sword of the spirit , which is my word in your hearts , which discerneth the lusts in your hearts , and every thought , and every intent in your hearts ; and by this sword shall you become more than conquerors ; this will cut down your lust , your pride , ambition , and self-seeking ; your covetousness , and your wantonness , and all such abomination , for which my hand is against you ; and this my word is within you , and this must purge and purifie you , if ever you are purged ; even that within you , which lets you see your abominations , which have caused me to hide my face from you , and to visit you in judgment : and when you have repented of the evil of your waies , and are returned unto that which lets you see your self-seeking , proud , persecuting , covetous , worldly , treacherous , deceitful spirit ; that by the same which lets you see it , you may be humbled in my presence , and return unto your first love , that which first visited you for your sins , that by it you may be truly purged , and may truly deny yourselvs , and not seek the worlds glory , but my glory ; and not your own interest , but the good old cause , the cause of my people : that truth and righteousness may flourish in these nations , and that the land may be swept of evil-doers , and that all superstition and idolatry may be rooted out , and all oppression and tyranny amongst people may be clean done away . if you thus return unto me in the uprightness of your hearts , then will i return unto you , and my presence shall be with you , and your strength shall return as in the daies of your youth ; and i will yet prosper you , and you shall take root downward , and bear fruit upward , and your flesh shall be fresh as the flesh of a child , and you shall be the joy of many nations ▪ but if you refuse to return unto me , and to seek me with your whole heart , and to be obedient unto my voice , and not take counsel at me , but follow the counsel of your own hearts , and offer unto me your wonted hypocritical praiers and fastings , and your hearts after your covetousness , envie , pride , self-seeking , and vain-glory ; though you may make many praiers , yet i will not hear , neither will i answer , but suffer a lying spirit to go forth amongst you , which shall deceive you , and speak peace when there is no peace , and you shall be lifted up to that end you may be destroied ; for i will give you into the hands of your enemies , and they shall do unto you according unto that which is in their hearts , and my loving kindness will i for ever take from you , and my habitation will i utterly remove from amongst you , and nothing but misery shall attend you , even one wo upon another , untill you are scattered and driven away , confounded and consumed from the face of the earth ; but my chosen will i deliver in that day , i will cover them , and i will hide them under the hollow of my hand , and my arm shall compass them about , because they have chosen me to be their fear , and have had regard unto my word , and have walked in my statutes , and observed my ordinances , and have despised the glory , honor , riches and preferment of this world , even for me , and for my kingdoms sake , for whom i have ordained a kingdom everlasting and eternal , where all the power of darkness shall not touch them therefore take heed unto the word which i have spoken , and no longer be of a proud and perverse spirit , nor of an uncircumcised heart ; but let your ears be open unto reproof , that you may learn righteousness , that in truth you may be established , that my power and my presence may be with you , that you may arise as a lion out of his thicket , or as a giant refreshed with wine ; that you may plead my cause with the men of the earth , that the whore which hath made all nations drunk with the cup of her fornications , and hath drunk the blood of the saints and martyrs , that you may give unto her double , even blood to drink ; and that her children may be dasht against the stones : for the hour of her judgment is come , and great babylon is now come in remembrance before the lord , and the cup of his fury and indignation is in his hand , which shall be powred out without mixture , and the dregs there of shall she drink : for now is the angel gone forth with the everlasting gospel to preach , saying , fear god , and give glory to him ; wherefore blessed and happy shall he be that receives the everlasting gospel of god , who are brought into his fear that keeps clean their hearts ; who gives the glory unto god , who do not seek glory unto themselves , nor seek honor unto themselves ; for the lord god is arisen to stain the glory of all flesh , and the loftiness of man shall be abased , and the haughtiness of man shall be laid low , and the lord alone shall be exalted : for he will overturn , overturn , overturn , until he comes whose right it is , and he will give it him ; for the kingdom and the government shall be his ; for the lambsday is come , and his kingdom and his government shall be established : though all the powers of darkness rise up against him , yet shall the lamb and the saints have the victory , though gog and magog join together in battel against him . therefore be ye warned , and take heed of giving your power unto the beast , and the false prophet ; for the wrath and vengeance of the lord is against him , and the day of babylons destruction is near , in which all her merchants that have traded with her shall weep and howl ; for none shall buy their wares any more , saying ; alas , alas , for that great city is faln by which so many were made rich through her merchandize ; for now is the lord arisen to uncover her skirts , and to make her shame and her nakedness appear in the sight of all men . therefore be not of a fearful heart , but be valiant for the lord , for he will bring mighty things to pass , such as your eyes hath not seen , nor your ears heard , nor hath entered into your hearts to believe ; for he is working a work and a wonder ; the understanding of the wise shall be confounded , and the wisdom of the prudent shall be hid ; for the lord hath purposed , and he will certainly bring it to pass ; for he hath seen , he hath seen the affliction of his people , and his eye hath beheld the cruelty of their enemies , & all their purposes are before him , and his soul hath pittyed his remnant , and his anger is kindled against his adversaries , and the day of their recompence is near , wherein he will reward them , even as they thought to do unto his chosen ; and their own mischief which they imagined in their own hearts , even with the same shall their ovvn bovvels be filled ; that as they have thirsted for , and greedily desired the blood of the innocent , even so shall it be done unto them . the lord hath spoken , and it shall surely come to pass . and now take heed unto your selves , and let the fall of others be a warning unto you , and see you build upon a right foundation ; for there is nothing but truth and righteousness shall stand , all other buildings shall certainly be overthrown : therefore in humility and meekness consider with your selves , that the lord hath not left himself without a witness in the hearts of every one of you , that the people who have been despised and hated , reproached and cruelly intreated , hath not been so dealt withall for any evil that they have done , but for bearing a true and faithfull testimony for the lord , against all the pride , ambition and vain-glory of this wicked and untoward generation , and against all the superstitious , idolatrous and vain worships , and against all the hireling , greedy , devouring , idol , dumb shepherds ; and against all the vain heathenish customs , fashions and traditions that hath been set up by the will and pride of man , contrary to the scriptures , and out of the fear of god ; and for keeping christs command . hath not this been the cause why we have been hated , persecuted , imprisoned , slandered , murthered , and all manner of evil done unto us ; because we are not of this world , even as he is not of this world , but hath chosen us out of the world , to bear testimony against the deeds thereof that they are evil ? therefore try now and throughly examine the ground and reason of all the hatred , evil-speaking and dealing that hath been against us ; and in moderation , and the fear of god , without prejudice , see wherein our practice is not agreeable with the scriptures , and let not your minds be any longer blinded through an evil heart of unbelief ; but let the long-suffering of our god lead you to repentance ; and not by resisting his spirit to hardness of heart , and his righteous judgments overtake you , and there be no remedy . the 22d . of the last month , 1659 : john collens . london , printed by m. i. for robert wilson , at the sign of the black-spread-eagle in martins l'grand , 1660. a plea for tolleration of opinions and perswasions in matters of religion, differing from the church of england. grounded upon good authority of scripture, and the practice of the primitive times. shewing the unreasonablenesse of prescribing to other mens faith, and the evil of persecuting differing opinions. / humbly presented to the kings most excellent majesty, by john sturgion, a member of the baptized people. sturgion, john. 1661 approx. 34 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 11 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a61911 wing s6093 estc r208120 99867110 99867110 119400 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a61911) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 119400) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 161:e1086[3]) a plea for tolleration of opinions and perswasions in matters of religion, differing from the church of england. grounded upon good authority of scripture, and the practice of the primitive times. shewing the unreasonablenesse of prescribing to other mens faith, and the evil of persecuting differing opinions. / humbly presented to the kings most excellent majesty, by john sturgion, a member of the baptized people. sturgion, john. 20 p. printed by s. dover, for francis smith, at the elephant and castle near temple-bar, london : 1661. baptized people = the anabaptists. annotation on thomason copy: "march 29". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anabaptists -england -apologetic works -early works to 1800. freedom of religion -early works to 1800. 2000-00 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2001-10 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2001-11 tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread 2001-11 tcp staff (michigan) text and markup reviewed and edited 2001-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a plea for tolleration of opinions and perswasions in matters of religion , differing from the church of england . grounded upon good authority of scripture , and the practice of the primitive times . shewing the unreasonablenesse of prescribing to other mens faith , and the evil of persecuting differing opinions . humbly presented to the kings most excellent majesty , by iohn sturgion , a member of the baptized people . acts 5. 38,39 . and now i say unto you , refrain from these men , and let them alone ; for if this counsel ( or this work ) be of men , it will come to naught ; but if it be of god , ye cannot overthrow it , lest haply ye be found , even to fight against god. london , printed by s. dover , for francis smith , at the elephant and castle near temple-bar , 1661. a plea for tolleration of opinions and perswasions in matters of religion , differing from the church of england . may it please your majesty , i have had strong impulses upon my mind for some dayes , to present this paper to your majesty , and i humbly hope it will not be made to suffer much under an evil resentment , upon its presentation to your hand , because it bears a testimony about it , of the authors good affections to your royal self ; for my witness is on high , that i did not write this paper because i love you not , because i honour you not , because i own you not , in your royal capacitie of magistracy and civil power ; god knoweth that you have not any subject more christianly real or cordial unto you ; and i humbly beg that your majesty would be pleased so far to deny your self , as to read it with patience , and to judge of it as you shall see cause . i beseech your majestie to consider , that it is one of the soveraign and high concernments of your soul , to understand , and to be acquainted with the counsels and mind of god , and to find time to search throughly into those worthy mysteries , which the blessed angels ( those great princes of heaven ) judge it no wayes beneath them to pry into ; and when they , who are gods by institution shall narrowly and with delight contemplate the real excellency of his glory , who is a god by nature , they must needs be transformed into his likeness , according to that most observable passage of the great apostle ; but we all with open face beholding , as in a glass , the glory of the lord , are changed into the same image , and when the gods on earth , shall be changed into the same image with the god of heaven ; not doubt but blessedness is coming on a pace upon the world . now if your majesty be pleased to look into the excellent proceedings of the king of kings , and lord of lords , towards men ; he doth not take away his favour , or withdraw his grace from all men , because some abuse it , & render themselves so fearfully wicked , as not onely to sin against the law of commandments , but against that glorious gospel of grace sealed and confirmed , by the blood of ever blessed jesus ; nor will he punish the innocent for the guilty : but the soul that sins shall die ; the father shall not answer for the son , nor the son for the father , but every soul shall bear the burthen of his own sin . o that your princely mind might be eluminated or enlightned by this heavenly instance , that your majesties actions to all your subjects , ( from the peere to the poorest ) may be guided by that rule which god himself hath been pleased to lay before you . i shall humbly take leave to mind your majesty of the liberty of tender consciences , which your majesty declared to indulge in your declaration from breda , for which many thousands did in all humility blesse the most high god , who put it into your majesties heart to declare your resolution to provide in that particular , that such as did uot disturb the peace of the kingdom , might worship god according to their light ; and that no man should be molested or disquieted for differing opinions in matters of religion , who could not joyn in the publick service of worship ; yet in regard of some rebellious persons in the city of london , who pretended to the like liberty of worshipping god apart from the parochial assembly ; who made insurrections and committed murder , under groundless pretences , of fighting for the kingdom of christ ; whereupon your majesty by proclamation hath forbid all meetings whatsoever , in private houses , or houses built , or purchased for the use of prayer , and other ordinances of gods worship ; whereby the innocent suffer for the guilty ; and many of your majesties loyal and obedient subjects are questioned , and publickly suspected to their great prejudice in their reputations , the consequence whereof is very mischievous to them and their families . i cannot imagine how your majesty can be unsatisfied , as to the innocency of the baptized people and others , who have not onely disclaimed the wicked rebellion of the said persons , but they have pressed their innocency from the very thought or imagination of any such wickedness ; if your majesty please to consider that in case three or four of your domestick servants should have committed , or done fome unworthy act , whereby they had incurred your just displeasure , upon which your majesty should have discharged all your servants from any further attendance in your royal court , although they never had any thing to do with the offenders , or their wayes ; it may be supposed , that the innocent would have thought this a very severe act ? i shall humbly leave your majesty to make the application . but if it be said , the law is against that indulgence formerly granted unto us , by your majesty ( as was hinted in the answer to the petition of the congregations in london , given at your majesties most honourable privy council , to the said petitioners ) and therefore no longer to be continued unto us , unless the next parliament ( to whom we are referred ) provide for the same . upon which answer , some make this observation ; that seeing the discontinuance of your majesties gracious indulgence , proceedeth from the aspect of some old law , then we should have felt the influence thereof , although venner and his disciples had never been born : moreover , if there be any such law , it was in being before your majesty sent that dove , with the olive-branch of liberty of conscience , ( viz. ) your declaration that granted us toleration ; for no law was made against our meetings by that parliament , which your majesty tearmed , the healing and blessed parliament . now if your majesty saw reason to suspend the execution of those laws , they being hurtful and pernitious to men of tender consciences ; then there is the same reason for your majesty to suspend them still , out of tendernesse to all such as have in no wise abused your clemency and grace , to them vouchsafed in that particular . and whoever have , or shall move your majesty , to continue your proclamation against meetings , to worship god , or to take occasion by those laws , to grieve and afflict poor men and women , who have opinions different from those of the church of england ( for such endeavours are not wanting , by them that know not what spirit they are of ) and this is matter of astonishment and wonder , if your majesty consider it , how far such men are from improving your excellent proclamation against swearing , debauchery and drunkennesse , or being in taverns after nine of the clock at night . oh! how little notice is taken of these proclamations , or of the laws to which they direct , either by the swearing debauched persons themselves , or by your majesties subordinate ministers ? and how few ( if any ) have been prosecuted upon those two proclamations , and what multitudes upon the other ? and this is much to be lamented , that men may with lesse danger , meet at taverns , ale-houses , and other places of debauchery , to drink above measure , or swear , game , rant and tear , as if there were neither heaven nor hell , god nor magistrates ; but if a few poor men and women , meet together in the fear of the lord , having mutual faith , and oneness of heart , to pray unto almighty god ; a part of whose petition is , that god would blesse & guide your majesty , and all that are in authority , that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life , in all godliness and honesty , 1 tim. 2. 2. at such meetings many are offended . and may it further please your majesty , to consider your afflicted and innocent subjects , how they have been haled from their peaceable habitations , and thrust into prisons , almost in all counties in england , and many are still detained , to the utter undoing of themselves and families ; and most of them are poor men , whose lively-hood ( under god ) depends upon the labour of their own hands ; so that they lie under more then an ordinary calamity , there being so many thrust into little rooms together , that they are an anoyance each to other ; especially in the city of london , where the lord-mayor crouds them very close together ; that it hath been observed , the keepers have complained , they have had too many guests ; and whilest they suffer there , some of their wives and tender babes want bread at home . and how long this will be the portion of some , i know not , unless your majesty extend the like grace to other prisoners , as your majesty did most princely to them at westminster , in giving order to discharge them , they acknowledging by subscription , your majesty to be the supream magistrate of this kingdom , and of all others of your majesties kingdoms and dominions , without pressing the oath of allegiance , which some are not free to take , by reason christ saith , mat. 5. 34. swear not at all , and in st. iames 5.12 . above all things my brethren , swear not ; they mistaking these two places , understand that christians should not swear in any case ; and therefore out of meer fear , lest they should offend against a divine law , have fallen under the penalty of that humane law , which requireth us to swear , our allegeance to your majesty . o , that your majesties clemency might enterpose , that their weaknesse on the one hand , and the severity of the law on the other , might not ruine many hundred families . but to return to that for which i am in travel ( viz. ) that we may worship god , according to our light and measure of understanding , unto which we have attained , without being restrained from the exercise thereof , by the magistrate , or by having any thing imposed upon us , as articles of faith , or rules of worship ; in the behalf of which , i humbly tender these six reasons following ; reason 1. first , be pleased , royal sir , to consider , that such imposing of the magistrates , is contrary to the nature of the gospel ; because it is one of the glories of christian religion , that it was so pious , excellent , powerful , and perswasive , that it came in upon its own piety and wisdom ; with no other force , but a torrent of arguments , and demonstration of the spirit , beating down all strong holds , and every high thought and imagination , that exalted it self against the same ; but towards the persons of men , it was alwayes full of meeknesse , and charity , compliance , and toleration , and bearing one with another , restoring persons overtaken with an errour , with the spirit of meeknesse ; the consideration is as prudent , and the proposition as just , as the precept is charitable , and the president most pious and holy ; that precept which it chiefly preaches in order to all blessedness , is , meekness , mercy and charity , whereby it should preserve it self , and promote its own interest : for indeed nothing will do it so well , nothing doth so excellently insinuate it self into the understanding and affections of men , as when the principles , actions , and perswasions of a people , are in every part suitable ; and it would be a mighty disparagement to so glorious an institution , that in its principle it should be so merciful and humane , and in the promotion and propagation , of it , so inhumane and dishonourable to christ ; it may serve the turk to support his alkoron , but it will much dishonor christianity , to offer to support it by that which good men believe to be a distinctive cognizance of the mahometon religion , from the excellency and piety of christianity , whose sence and spirit , is excellently described by s. paul , 2 tim. 2.24 . the servant of the lord must not strive , but be gentle unto all men , in meeknesse instructing those that oppose themselves ; if then any man will smite those that are his opposites in opinion , he must quit the title of being gods servant for his pains ; nor can a distinction of persons ecclesiastical and secular , give advantage for an escape ; for even the secular power , if it be christian , must not be strikers of others for the matters of their faith , for god alone is judge of erring persons , as that learned doctor ieremiah taylor , now bishop of down , saith in his thirteenth page of his epistle dedicatory , to that famous book , entituled , the liberty of prophesie . reason 2. the second reason against restraining or using force in matters of religion ; is , because christ , who is the only law-giver to his church , gives this precept for the regulation of the conversation of his disciples ; whatsoever you would have men do unto you , do ye even so unto them ; than which there is no law more reasonable , nor more just : it cannot be supposed that kings sitting in the throne of government , or place of trust and rule , are exempted from the observation of this commandment ; which if so , then if the magistrates be of this perswasion , that christ dyed for all men , and the people believe as calvin did , that he dyed for the elect onely ; what can the magistrates do in this case ? for if they make a law in favour of the peoples judgement , then they wrong themselves , which i suppose they will not do , if a law be made in favour of their own opinion against the peoples , then besides the injury which is done to the people , they break that royal law before mentioned , and thereby become guilty before god. reason 3. the third reason against restraining , or using force in matters of religion , is taken from the unreasonablenesse of such proceedings ; for what is more unreasonable , then to deny men the use of their reason , in choice of their religion ? for if scripture tradition , councils and fathers , be the evidence in a question ; yet reason is the judge ; that is , we being the persons that are to be perswaded , we must see that we be perswaded reasonably , and it is against reason to assent to a lesser evidence , when a greater is propounded , but every man for himself is to take cognizance , if he be able to judge , but if he be not , then he is not bound under the tye of necessity to know it , nor will god punish him for not knowing it ; and not onely the unreasonablenesse , but the impiety of using force in this case , may be further seen , if it be considered , that there is nothing under god hath power over the understanding of a man , god commanding us to believe his revelations , perswades and satisfies the understanding , by his commanding and revealing it ; for there is no greater probation in the world , that a proposition is true , then because god hath commanded it to be believed ; but then it must certainly be made appear to us , that god hath so commanded it ; but no man hath any efficacy or authority on the understanding of another , but by proposal & perswasion , and then a man is bound to assent according to the operation of the argument , and strength of the perswasion ; neither indeed can he assent sooner , or other wayes though he would never so fain ; he therefore that in this case useth force or punishment , punisheth a man for keeping a good conscience , or forceth him into a bad ; he both punisheth sincerity , and perswades hypocrisie , he presecutes a truth , and drives into an errour ; he teacheth a man to dissemble , to be safe , but never to be honest nor acceptable to god. learned doctor taylors argument for tolleration is very excellent , in his epistle to his liberty of prophecie , in page 14. this very thing ( saith he ) being one of the arguments i use to perswade permissions , left compulsion introduce hypocrisie , and make sinceritie troublesome and unsafe . reason 4. the fourth reason which i humbly offer to consideration , that persecution for conscience , or the civil magistrate using force in the matters of religion ; is , because it came in through corruptions of the times , so that it is so far from being of divine sanction , that it is earthly and sensual ; for the proof of this i shall onely transcribe a passage out of that worthy author , doctor taylor , in his aforesaid epistle to his liberty of prophecie , page the 18 , 19. which is as followeth ; that against this i have laid prejudice enough from the dictates of holy scripture , it is observable that this with its appendent degrees , i mean restraint of prophesying , imposing upon other mens understandings , being masters of their consciences , and lording it over their faith , came in with the retinue and train of antichrist ; that is , they came as other abuses and corruption of the church did , by reason of the iniquity of times , and the cooling of the first heats of christianity , and the increase of interest , and the abatement of christian simplicity , when the churches fortune grew better , and her sons grew worse , and some of her fathers worst of all ; for in the first three hundred years there was no sign of persecuting any man for his opinion , though at that time there were very horrid opinions commenced , and such which were exemplary and parallel enough to determine this question ; for they then were assaulted by new sects which destroyed the common principles of nature , of christianity , of innocency and publick society , and they who used all the means christian and spiritual , for their disimprovement and conviction , thought not of using corporal force , other wayes than by blaming such proceedings ; and therefore i do not urge their not doing it , as an argument of the unlawfulness of such proceedings , but their defying it , and speaking against such practices , as unreasonable and distructive to christianty ; for which the learned doctor cites all these fathers , tertullian , st. cyprian , lactantius , st. hilary , minuitius , felix sulpitius , severus , saint chrysostome , st. hierom , st. austin , damascon , theophylact , socrates , scholasticus , and st. bernard ; and he further saith , that all wise princes till they were overborn with faction or solicited by peevish persons , gave tolleration to differing sects , whose opinions did not disturb the publick interest ; and in page 20. till 400. years after christ , no catholick person , or very few did provoke the secular arm , or implore its aide . so far he . from which it is evident , that the magistrates imposing in matters of religion , is an evil , from which i pray god deliver your majesty . reason . 5. the fifth reason is taken from the principles and practices of some great princes , who did both give and perswade tolleration ; king iames your majesties royal grand-father , in his letter to the states of the united provinces dated the sixth of march , 1613. amongst other things thus wrote , etdistrictè imperetis ut pacem colant seinvicem tolerando in ista opinionum ac sententiaram , discere pacitià eoque iustius videmur vobìs hoc ipsum suadere , debere quod neutrum comperimus adeo deviam , ut non possint cum fidei christiana veritate , & cum animarum salute consistore : ( englished for common benefit ) that you charge them to maintain peace by bearing one with another in such difference of opinions and iudgements ; therefore it seemeth more right , that you should be thus perswaded , seeing neither of the judgements is found so dangerous , but that it may stand with the true faith of a christian , and the salvation of souls . the like counsel in the divisions of germany at the first reformation , was thought reasonable by the emperour fardinand , and his excellent son maximilion , they had observed that violence did exasperate , was unblessed , unsuccessful , and unreasonable ; and therefore they made decrees of tolleration , and appointed tempors and expediences to be drawn up by discreet persons ; and george cassander was designed to this great work , and did some thing towards it ; and immanuel phillibert duke of savoy , repenting of his war undertaken for religion against the pedimontans , promised then tolleration , and was as good as his word ; as much is done by the nobilitie of polonia ; and theodoricus the sage , king of the gothes , asswaging the vemency of the arians against the orthodox , no belief ( saith he ) is carryed on by blowes ; nor is that excellent saying of king edward the sixth to be forgotten , he being solicited to put a heretick to death , made this wise answer , will you have me to send her to hell in her sins ? but to conclud● this , the french king ( although he be the second son of the church of roome ) gives tolleration to different perswasions in matters of religion ; for the hugonets have their churches and places of meeting for to worship god in according as they are perswaded by order from their king ; and the world is witness how prosperous they have been , since they have left fighting for religion among themselves . reas. 6. the sixt and last reason , i have taken from the ill success , that alwayes attends such proceedings ; for whoever used force upon the body to change the mind , or to make men believe something they are not perswaded of , or to disbelieve something they have received for truth , or to leave off worshipping god , in that way which they think is most agreeable to his will ; they will have no better success than that man had , that clapt his shoulder to the ground to stop the earth-quake : and the experiences which christendom hath had in this last age , are sufficient instances ; when france fought amongst themselves , the catholicks against the hugonets , the spilling of their own blood was argument enough , of the imprudence of that way of promoting religion , and that all the blood shed in open arms , and private massacres could not prevent their further growth , nor extinguish that light that sprung up amongst that people ; and the name of the hugonets is not onely still in france , but they and their religion tollerated . but the great instance is in the differing temper , government , and success , which margaret of parma , and the duke of alva had ; the clemency of the first , had almost extinguished the flame , but when she was removed and duke alva succeeded , and mannaged the matter of religion with fire and sword 〈◊〉 made the flame so great , that his religion and his prince too , have been quite turned out of a great part of the country . and we are not without example nearer home , in queen maries dayes , what force and violence was there used , to make the people believe , as the queen and her bishops believed , some was burnt to death , some destroyed in persons , and many that scaped with life , were undone in their estates and lively-hood ; and all this was so unsuccesful , as to the suppressing their further growth , that it did the quite contrary , for the more they were opprest , the more they grew . i shall onely add a passage out of learned bishop taylor , in his epistle to his liberty of prophesie , page 25. but it is ( saith he ) observed by socrates , that when the first persecution was made against them ( that is ) such as differed in opinion from the bishop at rome , by pope innocent the first ; at the same instant , the gothes invaded italy , and become lords of all ; it being just in god , to bring a persecution upon them , for true belief , who with an incompetent authority , and insufficient grounds , do persecute an errour lesse material , in persons agreeing with them , in the profession of the same common faith. the next thing i humbly offer to your princely consideration , is the divine bond upon our hearts , to worship god according to our light ; and the crying sin , we must commit , if we shall resist our own understanding , and refuse to obey the command of god upon our conscience , to assemble our selves together for his worship , and that we ought to esteem our duty to god , much dearer than our estates , liberty or lives . and our souls are fully perswaded , that it is our duty to meet together , and speak often one to another , to exhort each other daily , to take heed of sin , and to follow after vertue , and to presse after the mark of our high calling of god , in christ iesus our lord ; and to provoke to love and good works , and if any be overtaken in a fault , to restore them in the spirit of meekness ; and to relieve the poor , and to support the weak , that by bearing one anothers burthens we may fulfill the law of christ ; and to walk so inoffensively in our conversation , as to give no iust occasion neither to your majesty as supream magistrate , nor to any of your ministers under you ; nor to any of the people or neighbours about us ; but to observe that excellent law of christ , whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them ; and if any shall persecute us for our profession-sake , to bear it with patience and not to return evil for evil , nor reviling for reviling ; but contrary-wise to do them good for evil , and to pray for them , that their eyes may be opened , and that god may not lay their sin ( in this case ) to their charge . now if your majesty will but consider what it is which the baptized people and divers others , have made such earnest suite to your majesty for , it is not for titles of honours , nor for places of great profit , either in a civil or ecclesiastical capacity , but onely this is their request , and humble desire , that we may serve the lord without molestation in that faith and order which we have learned in the holy scripture ; giving honour to our king to whom honour belongs , fear to whom fear , tribute to whom tribute belong , in every thing as far as we have abilities , to render to god the things that are gods , and to the magistrate the things that are his. rom. 13.7 . we likewise judge it our duty , to be alwayes willing and ready to give an answer , to every man that shall ask us a reason of our hope that is in us , with meekness and fear , now if any who judge themselves to be spiritual guides , will but take the pains to endeavour our conviction ( if they think we erre ) or at least to hear what we have to say , why we dissent from the publick worship , we doubt not but through the grace of god , we shall be able to give such an account of our faith and practice , that we do not deserve those epithets some are please do give us . i shall onely transcribe one passage out of that ingenious doctor , dr. ieremiah taylor which i find in sect. 18. number 34. of his liberty of prophesie , he speaking of the anabaptists , saith , that since there is no direct impietie in the opinion , nor any that is apparently consequent to it , and they with so much probability do or may pretend to true perswasion , they are with all means christian fair and humane to be redargued or instructed ; but if they cannot be perswaded , they must be left to god , who knoweth every degree of every mans understanding , all his weaknesses and strengths , what impresse each argument maketh upon his spirit , and how unresistable every reason is ; and he alone judges his innocency and sinceritie : and for the question , i think there is so much to be pretented , against that which i believe to be the truth , that there is much more truth than evidence on our side ; and therefore we may be confident , as for our own particulars , but not too forward peremptorily to prescribe to others , much lesse , to damn , or to kill , or to persecute them , that onely in this particular disagree . so far he . i shall conclude with this humble petition , that seeing your majesty hath been most earnestly supplicated ( by many petitions , addresses , and papers ) to continue your former indulgence : oh , that your majesty would be gratiously pleased to do something in it , that may recommend your name to be embalmed by them for perpetuity , through the remembrance of your just , righteous , and merciful actions , in breaking every yoak of oppression , and to the easing of the conscience of every man , professing jesus christ , from all unrighteous impositions ; and as this will administer peace , joy , and comfort to many of your suffering subjects ; so it will bring most excellent consolation unto your majesties soul , when the heavens shall be no more : and as your majesty desires to be found on the right hand of the great judge , in that his day ; so in this your day , to remember and consider , that magistracy and power of government , are no institutions of god , either to fill the purses , or to furnish the tables , or to lift up the minds , or in any kind , to gratifie the flesh of those in whom they are invested ; but rather , to serve to accomodate and bless the societies and communities of men on earth ( unto which they relate respectively ) according to that worthy item , which the queen of sheba gave unto solomon , because the lord loved israel for ever ; therefore made he thee king to do iudgement & iustice. 1 kin. 10.9 . the same lord and mighty god , so over-shadow your majesty with his power and good spirit , that the conceptions of your heart , may be holinesse to him , wealth and peace , and gladness of heart to the people of these great and famous kingdoms ( the government whereof god hath been pleased to intrust with you ) to your royal self , honour and safety , and length of dayes , with the peace and joy of a good conscience on earth , and a far more exceeding eternal weight of glory in the heavens ; so prayeth , your humble and dutiful subject , john sturgion . the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a61911-e180 1 pet. 1. 12. 2 cor. 3. 18. eze. 18. 20. the apologie of the baptized people of london . the linconshire two addresses . the kentish petition ; and many more to that purpose . 2 cor. 10. v. 5. gal. 6. ● . mat. 7.12 there were very sharp contentions about religion amongst the holland ministers ; at that time king iames adviseth the magistrate to moderate them , not to kill or punish them , for they may both be saved . heb. 10. 25. mat. 7. 12. mat. 5. 44. 1 pet. 2● 17. a brief account of the most material passages between those called quakers and baptists at the barbican-meeting, london, the 9th of the 8th moneth, 1674 / published for information by w. mead ... [et.al.] citizens there present, from the best collection they could make by writing and memory ; also a copy of the charges against thomas hicks ; with a letter from a sober baptist-preacher to jeremy ives upon the account of that meeting. 1674 approx. 58 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 23 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a50496 wing m1565 estc r29519 11164618 ocm 11164618 46470 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a50496) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 46470) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1426:10) a brief account of the most material passages between those called quakers and baptists at the barbican-meeting, london, the 9th of the 8th moneth, 1674 / published for information by w. mead ... [et.al.] citizens there present, from the best collection they could make by writing and memory ; also a copy of the charges against thomas hicks ; with a letter from a sober baptist-preacher to jeremy ives upon the account of that meeting. mead, william, 1628-1713. penn, william, 1644-1718. 45 p. s.n. [london : 1674] numerous errors in paging. imprint suggested by nuc pre-1956 imprints. "the names of the persons chiefly concerned being on the one side, george whitehead, william penn, george keith, stephen crisp; on the other william kiffin, thomas plant, thomas hicks, jeremiah ives, robert forguson, a presb." (p. [1]) reproduction of original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng steele, tommy. ives, jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674. society of friends -controversial literature. anabaptists -controversial literature. 2005-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-08 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-09 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2005-09 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a brief account of the most material passages between those called quakers and baptists at the barbican-meeting , london , the 9th of the 8th moneth , 1674. published for information , by w. mead , j. osgood , w. shewen , e. man , s. newton , j. claypool , w. welch . citizens there present , from the best collection they could make by writing and memory . also a copy of the charges against thomas hicks : with a letter from a sober baptist-preacher to jeremy ives upon the account of that meeting . the names of the persons chiefly concerned being on the one side , george whitehead , george keith , william penn , stephen crisp . on the other william kiffin , thomas hicks , thomas plant , jeremiah ives . robert forguson a presb. a brief account of the most material things which passed at the last barhican-meeting , being the 9th of this instant , between the people called quakers , and anabaptists . although we could rather have chosen to suspend any publication of that dayes procedure , until we should have received a more compleat account of the whole matter depending ; yet since we find three false & imperfect relations abroad , our care to prevent the peoples mis-information hath prevailed with us to publish this narrative . our friends being conducted by one t. plant , a baptist-preacher , to the place by them designed for us ( which we must needs say , did greatly fr●strate our expectation ( founded upon an accepted article of equal place ) there being scarce breathing-room allotted in all that great assembly for much above twenty of us : and there after some difficulty setled , w. k. stood up in the pulpit on the contrary side ▪ & by way of introduction to the matter , told the auditory , that the occasion of the meeting was to answer the call of the quakers upon them for justice against t. h. his proceedings in his late dialogues ; and desired , that their charge exhibited against t. h. might be publickly read for the information of the people . whereunto g. w. replyed , that there had been a great report of his and w. p's knowing the appointment of the former barbican-meeting , and designedly declining it , as being fearful or unable to make good their charges against t. h. which was an absolute wro●g done them , they being ignorant of any such meeting , wherein they were concerned ; and that they were now come to make good what they had exhibited against t. h. w. k. if you were so refl●cted on , it came from non● of vs that we know of . w. p. where is that ( vs ) limited ? w. k. to those concerned in that meeting . w. p. if t. h. had been but as careful in not extending the fault of any one call'd a quaker against the whole people , as w. k. is in restraining the word vs , he had behaved himself more honestly , then he has done . but w. k. if those called anabaptists belong to any part of that ( vs ) we can prove several of them guilty in that particular . w. k. if ye will produce them , we shall endeavour to do you justice . w. p. that is fairly said . w. k. we think it convenient , that the charge you sent us be read . w. p. it will not be so proper that the paper we sent to you be read , being but a meer index of the matter charged , and therefore not readily to be apprehended by the auditory ; but we have prepared another paper , containing the same matter at large , as in the pages , referred to in the former , which liberty we expresly provided for in the first article by you accepted , as will appear by our letter , which we desire may be read . w. k. & t. p. then let our letter be also read . w. p. that 's but reasonable . [ and here both letters were read , which are omitted for brevity sake ; that done our charge at length was produced and read up to the auditory . ] w. k. i desire that t. h. may have liberty to make his general defence , without interruption , to the charge . w. p. we are contented . t. h. as to the first particular , it contains two parts ; the first , the manner of writing ; the second , the matter . first , as to the manner ; that is , by way of dialogue ; which hath not only been used by ancient and modern christian . -writers , but also by some of the quakers themselves ; witness w. smith's book , called , a primmer betwixt a father and a child . 2. the matter , which relates to my opposing the christian to the quaker . i have five reasons to offer why i did so . first , they deny the christ of god. [ the rest are omitted for brevity ●ake , and because they came not under any consideration . ] by quakers i mean such as g. f. e. b. g. w. w. p. g. k. s. c. &c. 1. they deny the christ of god ; and this i prove out the quakers own writings . e. b. denies that christ was ever visible to men of thy generation , meaning the wicked : but the christ of god was seen by wicked men , &c. 2. from g. w 's appendix to reas . against rail . where he saith , that jesus christ , a distinct person without us , is no scripture-language . w. p. friendly auditors , t. h. endeavours to justifie the manner and matter of his writing against us : to the first , and what he saith in defence of it , i must tell him , that he mistakes the case ; for will. smith's book was written catechistically , in a familiar way , to the capacity of a child ; but t. h 's controversially , wherein he undertakes both to represent our principles , and way of defending them ; a●firming , that he had given nothing under the name of a quaker , but what was the language and practice of a real quaker . and i shall prove that discourse fictitious by several instances , having never been , as we have cause to believe , the sayings or practices of a real quaker , which are as follow : anab. may i not conclude , that the reason why you so freely rail against , and reproach your opposers , is only to secure your credit with your proselytes ? quak. i cannot deny but that there may be something of that in it , dial. 1. p. 72. a. doth the darkness obey this light , or doth the light obey it self ? q. it obeyeth it self , dial. 1. p. 66. a. but did christ-without redeem christ within ? q. vve say , it is the seed to which the promise of redemption is , and which only wants redemption , dial. 1. p. 69. a. is not this seed within god ? q. yea , ibid. a. but was not christ without a meer creature ? q. yea , ibid. a. you said before , christ is but one , and now ye speak as if there were two , the one god , and the other a creature : how shall i understand thee ? q. indeed thou canst no●●nderstand , dial. 1. p. 69. a. is it not incredible th●● a creature should redeem god ? q. indeed thou canst not believe , thy mind being in the darkness & enmity . p. 70 , a. but canst thou give a rational account hereof ? q. why demandest thou a rational account ? i deny thy reason ; we witness this redemption , p. 70. a. dost thou not give ground to suspect ●ecei● ? q. nay , there is that in thee that would witness to me , it thou wouldst heed it , ibid. a. i confess there is that in me that doth believe thou art full of pride , heresie and hypocrisie : is it this thou meanest bears witness to thee ? q. i see thou art a wicked creature , and hast nothing of god in thee , p. 70. again , a. since you own not the scriptures as a rule ; of what vse are they ? q. they are a declaration of the saints conditions , p. 79 , 80. a. are they of no further vse ? q. not to us , p. 68. again , a. the apostle saith , let woman be silent in the church ; why suffer ye women to declare ? q. the women to be silenced is the flesh , p. 71. a. hath the flesh a husband ? q. yea , ibid. a. who is it ? q. the devil , p. 71. a. the text saith , let a woman ask h● husband at home ; must the flesh be instr●cted by the devil in the things of religion . q. alas for thee , i comprehend thee , an● see thy subtilty , p. 71. again , a. are you then as perfectly happ● as ever you expect to be ? q. we witness perfection , p. 72. a. what proof is this to another man ? q. we say we witness it ; is not th● proof sufficient ? a. but what if i believe otherwise ? q. we shall not spare to stigmatize th● person that questions the truth of our sayings , p. 72. a. will this convince me or any other● your perfection ? q. though it do not , yet thereby w● shall render you so odious to our fiends , th● they will believe nothing that is spoken b● you against us , p. 72. a. doth not this signifie a very dishone● and malicious mind ? q. we care not what you think , prov●ded our friends think not so , p. 73. — we will give it out , that we have both an●swered and confuted our adversaries , an● ●r friends will believe us , which is enough us , ibid. in fin . again , a. but since it is not the good of 〈◊〉 promises that shall be fulfilled to persons ●ter death , it must be some other thing ; ●ay what is it ? q. we say , there is a seed shall be sa●d dial. 1. p. 74. dial. 3. p. 37. a. but if this seed only be god and christ ; ●hat is that to you ? q. is not this sufficient ? p. 74 , 75. again , a. what is the soul ? q. it is a part of god , and of god's ●●eing , p. 65. a. is not this as much as to say , the soul● god ? q. yea , ibid. a. if the light be god , and the soul be ●d ; how say you , god sets up a light in the ●ul ? doth he set up a light in himself ? q. we are dead to distinctions , p. 65 , 66. again , a. but dost thou indeed believe , ●at those quotations set down in the former ●ialogues are forgeries ? q. i do so , dial. 3. p. 2. [ these are some of his fictions . ] t. h. i can prove it all ; i cannot bate them a word ; some i will prove by their own words , and others by consequence . w. p. he hath shut out himself from all consequences by affirming that they are no other then what the quakers give both in vvords and practice ; and if the quakers expressions , then not t. h 's consequences ; but if consequences of t. h 's drawing , then not the quakers expressions : and though we might allow w. kiffin , or any sobe● man to draw natural and genuine consequences upon us , from our principles ; yet we cannot give that liberty to t. h. he having already excluded himself . [ note reader , that upon the great crack that was in the meeting ( which caus'd a consternation at that time upon many of the people ) they descended the pulpit to a more secure place ; at what time j. i. thus spake to w. p. ] j. i. mr. penn , inasmuch as you see the house hath shown it self so infirm , and that the people are so tumultuous , and that it may be dangerous not to break up the meeting , we desire that you would consent to the dissolving of it . w. p. ah jeremy ! had t. hicks heen but half so careful of not giving occasion for all this bussle , there had been no need of thy desire or our grant : but the people begin to be setled ( crying out , there is no danger ) and there are places secure enough for you ( pointing to another gallery ) and we are so deeply concerned in defence of our religion , that we are not willing to give away this opportunity : therefore friends and people , i do beseech you to be still ; doubtless you are come to hear , and you are the present obstructors of your own hearing : we are denyed to be christians , and are rendred unfit to live amongst men ; to some of you we may be relations ; to others neighbours or acquaintance ; howbeit , we are your country men : give us a hearing for our religion ; our souls , bodies , and all what is near and dear to us , is concerned in this matter : therefore once more i intreat your silence , that we may proceed . r. f. a scottish priest undertook to speak on the behalf of t. h. excusing him for writing dialogue-wise . g. k. it is one thing to write dialogue-wise , and another thing to write a dialogue ; for many in england did take it for a real dialogue . [ of which several present bore witness . ] r. f. george , you know that minutius felix and several ancients , learned men , have writ dialogue-wise , as lucian and cicero . w. p. dost thou mention lucian and cicero , heathens ? r. f. cicero was a wiser man , mr. penn , then you or i ; he proved one god admirably well . w. p. it seems then our light is good for somewhat , seeing a heathen by that light , could so admirably prove a god. besides , their manner of dialogueing was not like t. h's , who so unfairly and unjustly misrepresented our expressions , principles and religion . r. f. the matter we charge upon you , is , that the quaker is no christian . w. p. we , what we ? who art thou ? r. f. i am a christian . w. p. so say we ; that is but a begging of the question . [ here some answered , he is a presbyterian minister . ] vv. p. a presbyterian ? what ! a confederacy ? [ then jeremy ives , call'd an arminian-baptist , stood up . ] j. i. you say right , mr. penn ; i must acknowledge , the writing controversie in dialogue is a very unfair way , unless the greatest care be taken in expressing the principles of the adversary in his own words , and according to the best sense they will carry : but let us come to the matter of his dialogues , wherein he opposeth the christian to the quaker . — well , j. i. it seems thou dost grant the first . w. p. i am willing to come to the matter , if you would but hear , and not thus frequently interrupt me one after another . the second thing we object , as he tells us , is the opposing the christian to the quaker : his first reason for so doing , is our denying the christ of god. his proof , as he calls it , was out of my book , call'd reas . ag . rail . pag. 54. the words are these : let it suffice to the sober reader , that we do believe that christ , who is god over all , blessed forever , did come of abraham's seed according to the flesh ; that the body prepared of that line was his body ; that what sufferings befell it , were the sufferings of christ ; just as the body is call'd the body of christ . this makes very well for us ; for we are so far from denying him , that we acknowledge him to be god over all , blessed forever . r. f. but you deny him to be a distinct being without you . w. p. no such matter ; for we acknowledge him to be a distinct being without us , yet not divided from his people . [ here t. h. whispered , r. f. saying , a distinct person without them , or to that purpose . ] r. f. but you deny him to be a distinct person without you . w. p. thou didst just now charge us with denying christ to be a distinct being without us : this alters the case ; acknowledge thy mistake , and i shall answer . [ about this time they returned to the pulpit again . ] t. h. i will prove the quakers deny the christ of god , from g. w. his appendix to reas . ag . rail . pag. 27. and must conclude that it is a design of satan , to keep some men in carnal imaginations , and dark thoughts of an human , personal christ g. w. here t. h. hath dealt unfairly , as they have done in their barbican relation , by leaving out the last part of the sentence , which is explanatory of the first part , where i further explain it in these words , viz. consisting either of flesh , blood and bones like theirs ; or of flesh and bones without blood , and so of god's right hand , as limited to that remoteness , that they neglect to wait for christ's inward and spiritual appearance , and the knowledge of god's right hand near them , to save and preserve them from sin and death . are not those carnal imaginations , causing this neglect , sinful ? j. i. t. hicks will prove his charges . t. h. i w●ll prove them all , at least most of them . [ here the people hooted them , as if he cryed guilty to some of them . ] w. p. t. h. had liberty to make his general answer without interruption ; and will ye not give me leave to make my general reply ? let me proceed to end this second head , and i shall hear ●illingly t. h. of the whole matter : but it cannot be fairly done to over-look my answer to the first part , and thus unhandsomly interrupt in the second ; this is not to act the christian : if you will be but patient to hear my reply , i do engage to hear t. h's ; and if this day will not serve , he shall have to morrow ; and if that will not do , he shall have the day called munday , and so on , till the matter be throughly debated . [ here reader , a great number of indifferent people cryed , go on , go on : but j , ives , &c. refused to hear any thing further , unless our friends would give way to them to insist upon the proof of our denying the lord's christ ; which was only therefore withsto●d by us , because it was out of that order and method t. h. himself had laid down to proceed upon . ] w. p. if you will not hear my general reply , and thus unhandsomly over-run the first part of the charge , promise us that after we have discuss'd this particular head , that you will go upon the charges by us exhibited , and we shall condescend to answer you . j. i. t. h. and several promised , yes , yes , yes . w. p. then go on ; and let t. h. make good his charge if he can . [ here j. i. put forward to speak for t. h. upon which w. p. called out . ] w. p. tho. hicks speak out for thy self : thou art the man i have to do withal . t. p. mr. penn , you promised to hear another speak for t. h. because of the impediment of his voice . w. p. what aileth him ! his voice is loud enough to charge , but it feems it is not loud enough to prove ; but if t. h. pleads that infirmity , i am content another should go on . [ the people cryed , hicks , hicks , hicks ; whereupon t. hicks advanced . t. h. they that deny the lord 's christ are no christians ; but the quakers deny the lord 's christ , &c. w. p. i deny the minor , viz. that the quakers deny the lord 's christ . t. h. they that deny christ to be a distinct person without them , deny the lord 's christ ; but the quakers deny christ to be a distinct person without them , &c. j. i. w. p. answer directly . w. p. i desire that t. h. may explain what he meaneth by the term person . t. h. i mean , the man christ jesus w. p. then i deny the minor , viz. that we deny the man christ jesus . t. h. i prove ye deny the man christ jesus h. w. saith ; that christ was never seen with carnal eyes , nor heard with carnal ears , &c. j. i. he that denyes that christ was ever ●en with carnal eyes , &c. denyes the man christ ; but the quakers deny that christ ●as ever seen with carnal eyes , &c. — g. k. i answer by distinguishing : christ ● god , was never seen with carnal eyes ; ●ut as man he was seen with carnal eyes . j. i. but he was christ as he was man how then was not christ seen with carn● eyes ? g. k. we are to consider , that the term or names jesus christ are sometimes applyed to him as god , and sometimes to him ● man ; yea , sometimes to the very body ● jesus : but the question is , whether ● those names more properly , immediate and originally belong to him as god , or ● he was before he took that manhood upon him , or to the manhood ? we affirm , tho●● names are given to him most properly a●● eminently as god , and less properly , y●● truly , as man ; and least properly to his b●●dy , yet to his dead body . j. i. where do ye read , that the care● was called the christ ? [ vvhereupon several grieved at such reverent expressions , cryed out , where d●● thou ever read that christ's dead body ● called a carcass ? ] w. p. i beseech you for the lord's sa● that we may treat of these things as becom● christians , with an holy fear & reveren● g. k. i prove that the dead body of ●●sus was called christ from the words of m●●ry , where have ye laid him ? [ with this j. i. broak forth into a laugh●er , with the confederates . ] c. h. are you not ashamed to laugh at ●lain scripture-words . g. k. but i prove that he was jesus christ before he took flesh , ephes . 3. 9. who cre●ted all things by jesus christ . j. i. george keith , is this to be a respondent ? are you a schollar , and do not know better the rules of a respondent ? g. k. yes , i will justifie is , that it is lawful for me to give the reason of my distinction . t. h. i will prove the quakers to be no christians . c. h. there are two vvayes of proving a man no christian ; the one by principle , the other by practice jeremy . j. i. they that say , that christ cannot be seen with carnal eyes , and was never visible to wicked men , do deny the lord 's christ ; for he was seen with carnal eyes , and by wicked men. w. p. i distinguish upon the word seen : vvicked men might see him in that bodily appearance , and yet not see him to be the christ of god ; they saw his manhood , but did not see his christsh●p . [ here reader , j. i. t. hicks , &c. fell a laughing , and set many of their own party into an indecent noise ; at which w. p. thus reflected : ] w. p. are you not ashamed ? vvill you pretend to prove us no christians , and yet behave your selves so like vnchristian men , to laugh about matters of the greatest moment . i will prove to you , that not all who saw his manhood did see him as christ . first , from christ's vvords to peter , when peter confessed , that he was christ , the son of the living god , viz. flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee , but my father which is in heaven ; therefore peter with a carnal eye could not have seen the lord's christ , much less vvicked men. my second proof is from the apostles vvords , 1 cor. 2. whom none of the princes of this world knew ; for had they known him , they would not have crucified him . now seeing and knowing in scripture are sometimes equivalent ; consequently , christ as to his outward appearance might be seen by wicked men , yet not seen or known to be the christ . and that was the seeing plainly intended by e. b's vvords . g. k. christ said , he that hath seen me , hath seen the father ; but no vvicked man hath seen the father ; therefore no vvicked man hath seen christ , as such . [ upon this j. i. according to his usual practice flung up his hand to the company , bespeaking them for a noise , expressing himself to this purpose . ] j. i. this is a distinction indeed ; just as if i should say when i see w. p ' s. body , i do not see w. p. because i do not see his ●oul , or that which is more excellent in him . [ a meer shuffle ! the comparison being altogether unequal , as many replyed ; for it no way lessens the distinction , nor the vveight of those scriptures above-mentioned ; as also , they that saw him as the carpenter's son , did not see him as the christ of god. ] j. i. is the manhood a part of the lord 's christ ? w. p. is this to prove the charge of our denying the lord's christ ? it seems we must be here to be catechized , and ye will not answer us one question . [ vvhereupon j. i. lifted up his hands and voice , as if he had sound out the secret , crying to the people . ] j. i. now ye see after what manner they own the lords christ . [ here some of their own party gave him an acclamation . ] w. p. friends , i desire you to hear me : i shall answer j. i. his question , if he will promise to answer mine . j. i. i will answer it . w. p. then i here declare , that we do faithfully believe that holy manhood to be a member of the christ of god. [ upon which the people cryed , very well ; and w. p. directed his question to j. ives . ] w. p. vvas he the christ of god before he was manifested in the flesh ? j. i. he was the son of god. w. p. but was he the lord 's christ ? i will prove him to have been the lord's christ , as well before as after . 1. from the apostle paul's vvords to the corinthians : that rock was christ . next , from jude , where some greek copies have it thus , that jesus brought the people of israel out of egypt . [ to which we receiv'd no answer , though we often called upon him for it ] g. k. if they own him not to be the christ , before he took flesh , they take part with the * socinians . [ here j. i. being manifestly at a loss , fell into a heavy repetition of some former passages , impertinent to the present matter , with his so and so ; and what if i should say , &c. to the nauseating of the minds of the people , which he perceiving , ●etook himself to this question , as his last stratagem . ] j. i. but do ye believe that christ in his human nature is in heaven . [ after the discourse between vv. p. g. k. on the one part , and j. i. and t. h. ●n the other , about seeing the lord 's christ ; ● . vv. in this wise opened and referr'd the matter to the peoples serious considerations . ] g. w. you have heard the charge against ●s , and the distinction that hath been made between seeing and seeing of christ ; as na●ely , between the spiritual , saving sight● the lord's christ ; and the seeing of his ●tward man , person or body : in this last ●ense , it could never be intended that it was ●t visible to the outward eye ; but as he was ●e spiritual rock which all israel drunk of , ●d as he was before abraham was , and as ●●rified with the father before the world be●n , and as christ himself saith to philip , he ●●t seeth me , seeth my father also : and it ●ere only saints or children of light , who could truly say , we have seen his glory as the only begotten of the father , full of grace and truth ; in all which considerations or sense of seeing , the lord 's christ was only seen spiritually , and not with carnal eyes ; therefore we may leave this matter with the people , seriously to consider of . [ to which j. ives granted that it might be so left ; yet presently after , instead of proving us no christians , he urged that vnscriptural question aforesaid upon us . ] j. i. do ye believe or own that christ is in heaven with his human nature ? w. p. vve do believe the man. christ jesus to be glorified in heaven . [ vvhich answer j. i. refused to accept , because they were not the terms of his question . ] w. p. vvhat difference dost thou make between the manhood and human nature of christ ? j. i. none , if you mean candidly . w. p. then i do mean and speak candidly ; we do believe that holy manhood to be in heavenly glory . j. i. why did not you say so before ? [ the people said , it is enough . ] [ j. ives immediately withdrew , and went his vvay . ] [ it being dark , we call'd for candles to be ●●ght'd , in order to prosecure our charges ; but some of them cryed out , away , away , away ; no candles to be lighted : at length we got some ; but th. plant appeared in the pulpit , desiring to be heard a few words , which were to this purpose , directed to g. vv & vv. p. ] t. p. the doors are broken , and several things necessary to be repared , which , if the meeting should not be broke up , the carpenter cannot have time to do it before our first-day meeting : and inasmuch as such great meetings are attended with inconveniences ; we desire that five of your friends may meet five of our friends , in order to consider about an other meeting . w. p. it is your house ; we are not willing to be trespassers , and must thus far acquiesce in your requests , to withdraw at present ; only , inasmuch as we have been publickly wronged , it is but reasonable we should be publickly righted . t. p. that is but reaso●able . vv. p. then we accept the offer of five of side , to consider of a further meeting . t. p. we take it kindly from you . w. p. friendly auditors ; before ye de●art , i desire that you would be pleased to ●●ke notice , that whereas it hath been ob●●cted against us , we deny the lord 's christ , in order to make good t. h's dialogue , in opposing the christian to the quaker , as if the quaker were no christian : we do here solemnly declare , that with reverence we believe and confess to christ , both as he is the man jesus , and god over all , blessed forever . and this further i would leave with you , that though we are jealous of expressing our faith in unscriptural terms , as , god-man , a distinct person without us ( which limits and confines him to a remoteness ) human nature of christ in heaven , &c. yet you see we have declared that to be our belief , which they acknowledge to be the true sense and meaning , signified by that explanation they put upon their own termes . now do but weigh , how unreasonable it is , that for rejecting certain terms , and those vnscriptural too , we should so publickly , and with such severity be vnchristian'd to the world by t. h. &c. g. w. i also desire to be heard a little . here hath been a great deal of words about christianity ; but while the name of christ hath been often mentioned , there is not that reverence to him shown among you , that ought to be in discoursing about christ and christianity : it doth ill become professors thereof to shew themselves in this rudeness , clamours and confusion , as many here have done ; but since christianity is so much talkt of , it is necessary to know , what christianity is . it is not a profession or meer notion of christ ( how true soever ) but it is a being like christ ; he was patient , meek , humble , low in heart , &c. in all which true-christians are conformable unto him , and bear his image . — we have been by these interruptions diverted from pursuing our charge againt t. h. who hath most grosly abused vs , our religion and sufferings ; insinuating that they were for carnal interest , and satisfaction of our wills and lusts , as if on this account our friends offered up their lives , and all that was near and dear to them in this world ; ( many dying in prison in new-gate in the time of the infection , and at other times , for bearing an open testimony in their publick meetings in this city of london ) let all who are serious & impartial , judge concerning this manner , and how this man hath abused us and our sufferings , &c. and , seeing that a dismission of the meeting is desir'd by them , the place being theirs , that they may have no occasion against us , i intreat that all our friends may peaceably withdraw : and t. plant , desire the same of them that belong to them . t. p. i desire that all may quietly depart . g. w. i desire also that those in the galleries take time to go down gently that none be harmed . further , that since we have mutually agreed to dismiss the meeting , t. plant , i desire that none of you , the baptists , would stay after us , to render us odious ; but depart with us . t. p. we will. [ and accordingly the multitude peaceably withdrew , and dispers'd themselves . ] a catalogue of some of those things charg'd against t. h. either wholely omitted or ●●airly examined in your ●●te relation of the barbican meeting ; pointing you to the particulars in the books . general charges . 1. a dialogue between a christian and a quaker [ yet made by t. h. ] viz. wherein , saith he , is faithfully represented some of the chief and most concerning opinions of the quakers ; together with their method and manner of reasoning in the defence thereof ; published for common benefit , dial. 1. title page . 2. his abuse of our sufferings . his discourse runs thus , viz. q. why will you not be free , and plainly tell me , what it is that doth influence and prevail with you to do and suffer as you do ? a. what dost thou think it should be ? dial. 1. p. 75 . q. may not the satisfaction of your wills and lusts , the promoting your carnal interest , be your chief motive and inducement ? a. vve deny the flesh , and the lusts : this is thy own dark imagination . q. may not you live in , and fulfil the lusts of the flesh , whilst you deny it in words ? i am serious with you , since your opinion denyes any eternal advantage to be reaped by persons after death , in denying the resurrection of this body ; must you not then have respect only to somthing to be enjoyed here , as your encouragement ? a. we are above the world and all its encouragement . q. this is no other to me then a vai● boast , because i am assured no sort of peo●ple whatever , do more eagerly grasp af●ter the world then you do , insomuch tha● ( i believe ) your carnal advantages is o● great thing in your ●ye in your sedulou● endeavours to augment your numbers ; ● i mistake you , inform me what it is that do● animate you ? a. thou seest we suffer in our worldly concerns for our principles ; how then can this be our encouragement ? q. though you may sustain some outward losses ; yet , whether ye have not a way to augment your outward gains by loosing ? 3. are you then as perfectly happy as ever you expect to be ? a. we witness perfection , 1 dial. p. 72 , 73. q. what proof is this to another man ? a. vve say we witness it : is not this proof sufficient ? q. but what if i believe otherwise ? a. vve shall not spare to stigmatize and condemn that person that questions the truth of our sayings . q will this convince me or any other of your perfection ? a. though it doth not , yet thereby we shall render you so odious to our friends , that they will believe nothing that is spoken by you against us . q. then may i not conclude , that the reason why you so freely rail against , & reproach your opposers is only to secure your credit with your own proselytes ? a. i cannot deny but that there may be something of that in it . q. vvill you be so liberal of your revilings , whether your adversaries give occasion or no ? a. it concerns us to render them as ridiculous as we can , and to make our friends believe they do nothing but contradict themselves ; and if this fail , we will insinuate by way of question something that may be reproachful to them , &c. q. but doth not this signifie a very dishonest and malicious mind in you ? a. vve care not what you think , provided our friends think not so . q. one of your friends meeting with a person that had writ against you , tells him , that if he did write any more against them , that they would print any thing against him that any person would report , be it what it would . is such a practice a proof of your perfection ? a. now thou slanderest us . q. do you believe the scriptures to be the true sayings of god ? a. yea , so far as they agree to the light in me , dial. 1. p. 66. q. ap. ans . p. 29. 5. q. vvhen we make use of the scriptures , 't is only to quiet and stop their clamours that plead for it as their rule , dial. ● pag. 24 , 25. 6. that they ( viz. the quakers ) render the holy-scriptures to be of no more authority then the fables of esop ; and esteem them inferiour to their own pamphlets , 2 dial. epist . p. 5. q. ap. ans . p. 29 7. that the blood of christ in their esteem is worse then the blood of a common thief , dial. 1. p. 9. & 38. contin . p. 4. q. ap. ans . p. 31. 8. that the quakers have discovered themselves to be no other but the spawn of that wicked brood the ranters , having licked up their vomit , dial. 3. p. 80. 9. that the quakers owning jesus christ is indeed no other then a meer mystical romance , 1 dial. p. 10. contin . p. 9. 10. that the tendency of all the quakers reasoning about instituted religion is to debauch mankind , dial. 3. p. 65 11. that the quakers appoint their ministers afore-hand to speak in such a place at such a time : that their meetings are only and principally to decoy , trapan and inveigle others , contin . p. 66. q. ap. ans . p. 27. 12. that our principles improved , are destructive to all humane society , contin , p. 59 , 62 , 69. 13. his kind of treating us with reviling language , viz. cheats and impostors , lyars malignant errors , hypocrisie , deceit , equivocations ; the vvay they arrived to that degree of perfection , was by quaking , foaming at the mouth , with dreadful roarings and howlings ; and this , he sayes , the devil influenced us into . again , delusions , impertinent cantings , non-sense , blasphemy , the devil's slaves , paganism , satan's snares , pernicious and perilous errors ; they are inspired and influenced by that grand impostor the devil ; blasphemous and ridiculous canting ; enthusiastical ; they decoy and trapan ; your idle , non-sensical and blasphemous prating ; inspired by satan ; you are as vile impostors as ever were . thus much of us and our vvay in general , besides his knaves , coxcomb , impudent and audacious fellows , that he has called our friends on religious conferences : mad-men , absolutely infatuated , distracted , monsters in religion , dissemblers , knave , impudent fellow , little respect to magistrates , vvilful lying , the most implacable enemies to the christian-religion , as vile impostors as ever were , &c. to which is added dial. 1. p. 76. romish emissaries : see reas . against rail . p. 170 , 171. append. ibid. p. 7 , 8. c●u●t . chr. p. 120. q. ap. ans . p. 24 , 25. 14. he proclaims to the vvorld , that our religion is a meer cheat , calculated only to the service of the devil , and their own lusts , dial. 1. pag. 62. 15. if a merchant sell you his goods , he must stay for his money till you ( saith he ) be moved to pay it ; till which time you are under no obligation in point of duty . you say , 't is necessary to have things reveal'd to you , with respect to your conversation in the vvorld , which are not to be found in the scriptures , no not by consequence : how then may your creditors be assured it will be revealed to you , to pay what you ow them ? scripture and reason would , and do teach you herein , but these you must be dead unto ; who knows then what may , or may not be revealed to you ? 't is not unknown that a revelation hath been pretended to excuse the payment of a just debt . and why may not that which hath been ( even amongst you ) be again ? but is it reasonable that men should be baffled out of their just rights by such unjust and wicked pretences ? continuat . pag. 69 , 70. charges against particulars . 1. that jesus christ came to seek and save a lost god ; and that the seed of god in man only , and nothing else is taught , &c. contin . p. 49 and 66. 2. that nich. lucas , a real quaker , was moved to declare his mind thus , ( to one i know very well ) thou mayst burn thy bible , and when that is done thou mayst serve god as well without it ; and if thou hast a mind to have a scripture , thou mayst write as good a one thy self , cont. p. 5. & 60 , 71. dial. 3. p. 3. & 86. 3. chr. i have formerly detected you of several pernicious opinions concerning the scriptures , the light within , the person of christ , and the resurrection of the dead , &c. which i presume by this time you have considered ; vvhat say , you thereunto ? quak. i say , the plagues and judgments of god will follow thee , g. w. contin . p. 1. dial. 3. p. 85. q. ap. ans . p. 30. 4. his false reflections upon stephen crisp , dial. 1. p. 44 , 45. 5. his several abuses of w. pen , cited in his book , call'd , reas . against rail . cont. p. 52. dial. 3. p. 1 , 2 , 4 , 10 , 13 , 41 , 68 , 69 , 70 , 72 , 73 , 74 , 80 , & epist . the contradictions charg'd upon t. hicks , counterf . christ . detect . p. 3. 48 , 49 , 50 , 51 , 52 , 53 , 54. further we have several exceptions against your manner of appointment , and management of the meeting at barbican . vve also except against your late book , called , the quakers appeal answered , as not making good the title thereof ; and because many things are overlook'd , for which you say the appeal was made , and several things unfairly cited . which are but some of those many things we have further to object against t. hicks and his abettors , when the●e are particularly and fully considered & determined in publick . and we having thus far condescended , we expect a publick meeting without delay fairly to examine and discourse matters ; which when done , we are willing to come to the doctrinal points ( which are chiefly in controversie ) concerned in t. h's three dialogues ; our very aim and end being for truth and righteousness , and that things may be mannaged in good order . george whitehead , george keith , william penn , stephen crisp , brother ives , i was sorry to see thee appear in the pulpit ( i will not say cock-pit ) as an assistant to one that would prove the quaker no christian we saw him foyl'd in his first attempt , to prove his way of writing ; for , as mr. penn truly said , there is a vast difference betwixt a dialogue composed for information , and one for disputation ; in the first i only write my own judgment , in the other an adversary's . but moreover , i wonder thou wouldst put that ensnaring question to them ( which was best answered with silence ) viz. whether the humanity was a part of christ : for what if they had turn'd another upon thee to the same purpose , thus , whether that which was crucified , and satisfied for sin , was a part of christ , or whole christ ? would not the same or more absurdities have fallen upon thee , if thou hadst directly answered ? brother , let us leave dividing of christ ; and put not such queries , which bring inconveniencies upon both parties . again , thy way to prove them will as easily prove us all no christians ; for i suppose thou wast running to this , that he that denies a part of christ denyes the whole ; but the quakers deny a part , ergo. then why may not another reason thus ? he that loves not christ , denys him ; he that keeps not his commands , loves him not , and so forward to this , that non-conformity to every command of christ is a denying of christ , then must the presbyter . and independents be no christians for denying baptism ; and some baptized churches must be antichristian for denying laying on of hands on all , and others for not keeping saturday-sabbath ; but god forbid that we should thus proceed to heat henize one another for diversities of apprehensions concerning the nature , offices or ordinances of christ . t h. has dialogued so long , till he has fill'd the quakers meetings in these parts : and for ought i see , the more we strive , the more they thrive . it s strange we cannot observe the counsel of our own bible , to let them alone ; for if they be not 〈◊〉 god , they shall not stand . let us contend against all faith that leads to● an unholy life , which doubtless the apostle intended , when he bids us contend for gospel-faith , and not doubtful disputation . one thing more i noted , which was not fair , viz to set women at the door of the disputation , to sell a pamphlet to exasperate the people against the quakers ; verely , he that did it , acted too much like a poch●r , which if he can , will wound the hare before he courses her : i was so troubled at it , that i desired the woman to remove , or forbear shewing till the dispute was past ; but she was so zea●ous in her business , that i fear , she was hired : whatever the design was i know not ; but truly the substance of the pamphlet was very weak ; for by the very same argument he may prove all our pedigree from the pope , as well as the quakers ; but the sheet it self smelt of the spirit of persecution , which is the very worst part of popery : but no more at present , only this , if thou hear of a disputation again , do thy endeavour to have it out of the city ; three or four miles distance had freed you from that rabble , which i perceive will alwayes disturb and make utterly unprofitable all meetings of that nature . from octob. 12. 74. thy loving friend and brother w. l. postscript . forasmuch as the baptists , &c. h●●● publickly ( though falsly ) accused a●● charged us with denying the christ of g 〈…〉 the worth and authority of the holy scr●●tures , and other things of the like natur● we do ( for the stopping of the mouth 〈◊〉 slander , and informing the simple ) decl●●● in the presence of god , that we do high honour and truly own the lord jes●● christ , as he is born witness of in the ho●● scriptures , both as he is god , and as he too● upon him flesh , and fulfilled the law in th● very body prepared for him above sixte●● hundred years ago , in which he resist●● and overcame the divel , and became a compleat sacrifice for mankind in general . and further , in simplicity and plainne●● of heart we own him in all his offices reco●ded in the holy scriptures . and concernin● the scriptures , we esteem them and ow● them as the words of god , spoken by the spirit of god , moving in holy men , prophets , christ , his apostles and ministers and that they are profitable for doctrine reproof , correction , &c. yea , we truly value them above all the books extant in the vvorld , and do hold it our duty to live that holy life they call for and exhort to ; and they were written for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope : and we wish with all our hearts , that whole christendom , who honour them with their lips , might come to live that holy life which they exhort to ; for it is not the bare profession of god , christ and scriptures , and other heavenly things in vvords , that availes any thing ; but a living a godly christ-like life , is the sum of christian religion . w. s. the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a50496-e290 * and there is some cause for suspicion ; for a profest socinian confederated with them , and sat very near the pulpit . an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists in and about the city of london which declaration doth rather seem a begging of pardon of the caveliers then [sic] a vindication of that truth and cause once contended for : i seeing so much wickedness ... / from a true lover and owner of the people called quakers ... richard hubberthorn. hubberthorn, richard, 1628-1662. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a44834 of text r16813 in the english short title catalog (wing h3218). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 55 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a44834 wing h3218 estc r16813 13623498 ocm 13623498 100861 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a44834) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 100861) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 791:20) an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists in and about the city of london which declaration doth rather seem a begging of pardon of the caveliers then [sic] a vindication of that truth and cause once contended for : i seeing so much wickedness ... / from a true lover and owner of the people called quakers ... richard hubberthorn. hubberthorn, richard, 1628-1662. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. answer to a declaration of the people called anabaptists. 24 p. printed for thomas simmons ..., london : 1659. "the baptists in their postscript for a confirmation of a seal to their confusion, they have subscribed these names following, viz. henry jessey ... [et al.]" "an answer to a declaration of the people called anabaptists," by e. burrough: p. 12-24. reproduction of original in huntington library. eng jessey, henry, 1603-1663. anabaptists -england -london -early works to 1800. toleration -early works to 1800. society of friends -england -london. a44834 r16813 (wing h3218). civilwar no an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists, in and about the city of london. which declara hubberthorn, richard 1659 10812 5 5 0 0 0 0 9 b the rate of 9 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-04 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2005-04 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists , in and about the city of london . which declaration doth rather seem a begging of pardon of the caveliers , then a vindication of that truth and cause once contended for . i seeing so much wickedness , confusion , fear and unbelief in so small a thing in vindication of themselves publickly to the nation , it was upon me to answer something to it ; and my end in so doing is rather to instruct them , then to shame them . from a true lover and owner of the people called quakers , ( above all flatterers ) because i see they have not bowed their knee to baal , nor worshipped the power of the beast under any diverse colour whatsoever , but walks in that righteousness which must establish the nation , richard hubberthorn . the baptists in their postscript for a confirmation or a seal to their confusion , they have subscribed these names following , viz. henry jessey john tombes richard wollaston henry tull william kiffen william warren john battee john clement edward cresset george gospright john sowden benj. hewlin edward harrison samuel tull edward green edward grainge richard dean edward roberts henry knollys john spilsbury john gosnold samuel stanton thomas cooper henry hills . london , printed for thomas simmons , near aldersgate , 1659. an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists , in and about the city of london . friends , called anabaptists , whereas you say , you are mis-represented to the nation ; 1. as such as are opposite to magistracy . 2. as such as would destroy the publick ministry of the nation , who differ from you in some things about religion 3. that you do countenance the people called quakers in their irregular practice . 4. that you endeavour a toleration of all miscarriages in things ecclesiastical and civil , under pretence of liberty of conscience . 5. that ye design to murther and destroy those that differ from you in matters of religion , thereby endeavouring to make you odious to some people fearing god ; and also to incense the rude multitude against you , to provoke them ( if possible ) to destroy you , &c. unto the first of which you say , though we cannot answer in justification of every individual person that is of our profession in matters of religion ; yet we can say this , and prove it to all the world , that it hath been our profession , and is our real practise , to be obedient to magistracy in all things civil ; and willing to live peaceably under whatever government is or shall be established in this nation : for we do believe and declare magistracy to be an ordinance of god , and ought to be obeyed in all lawful things . answ. for you to give up your selves willingly and peaceably unto whatsoever government is or shall be established in this nation , without any limitation , and to submit unto any power or magistracy that doth or shall rule , as the ordinance of god , without any limitation or qualification , is far below that spirit which was once in some of you in that profession , for you have told of having the lawes regulated according to the scriptures , and of having judges as at the first , and counsellors as at the beginning ; and then not to submit to what government soever , but that which is according to equity and justice . and what do you bear arms or fight for , if not for a government according to truth , and that righteousness may establish the nation ? some have judged this to be the very design and end of the war and controversie against many that was governours and magistrates , and was by some called the ordinance of god , and the higher power ; and if now you resolve to live peaceably , and submit to whatever government shall be established , then your fighting is at an end : and if charles stuart come , or any other , and establish popery , and govern by tyranny , you have begged pardon by promising willingly to submit and live peaceably under it as the ordinance of god . and if jereboam come to reign and set up calves to worship , and cause the people to sin , yet you will submit and live peaceably and quietly under it , accounting it the ordinance of god . and if a pharaoh come to rule , he that bears rule must be counted a magistrate , and a magistracy must be accounted the ordinance of god by you , and peaceably submitted unto ; and whatsoever government they set up by their act will be accounted lawful things , and you must submit to them , else you have proved your selves all lyars ; but some did judge that ye had been of another spirit . to the second you say , as for the publick ministry of the nation , who differ from us in the matter of baptizing infants , and some things in church government ; we are so far from endeavouring to destroy them , that we judge they ought to have the liberty of their conscience therein ; and that it is our duty to stand by them , and preserve them ( so much as in us lies ) from all injury and violence . answ. it seems then that there is not so much difference betwixt them and you as will make them antichristian and you christian : and there is a near complyance when as it is your duty to stand by them , and preserve them , while they are baptizing infants ; but can you stand by them and preserve them , and not tell them that it is anti-christian , or contrary to the scriptures ? and do you think that they will do as much for you , as to stand by you while you are plunging your members in the water ? and although you do so as you say , is not this contradiction to your selves in what you say in the same paper ? for do you not say , that you will not tolerate any miscarriages in things civil or religious ; and whether is not this a miscarriage in things religious to baptize infants ? and whether do you not tolerate this miscarriage in them , while you stand by to preserve them in it , as you say from injury and violence ? but who doth offer any violence to them which you are their guard against ? but the priests will hardly believe you , and if they ever have power , that will not pardon you for so saying , and therefore you had better have been silent , then have shewed your weakness and ignorance for nothing . to the third you say , concerning the people called quakers , it is well known unto all , ( that are not wilfully ignorant ) there are none more opposite to their irregular practices then we are , nor are there any that they have exprest more contradiction to in matters of religion then against us , though their provocation therein hath not put us in the least on a desire of depriving them of their just liberty , while they live morally honest and peaceable in the nation . answ. is not this secret smiting without a cause ? what irregular practice is that which you accuse them of and will not mention ? is this honestly done ? what are they worse then the episcopal priests you mention to them , wherein they differ from you ? and why not to the quakers ? is it enough for any man to believe that they are irregular , because you say so without any proof ? or dare you not mention wherein you judge it so , least they should disprove you ? but you say , there is not any they have expressed more contradiction to in matters of religion , then against you . answ. that is false , for they have more contradicted the common priests of the nation , as their books and sufferings will witness , although they have according to truth contradicted you , and also have more of your contradictions and confusions to declare concerning you , which is not yet published ; but what do you account their irregular practises ? is it because their yea is yea , and their nay is nay in all their communications ( and yours not so ? ) or is it because they cannot swear at all ? or is it because they cannot have any mans person in admiration because of advantage , or because they cannot respect the person of the rich , nor honour the person of the mighty ? is it because they do unto others as they would have others to do unto them , or because they speak the truth every one to his neighbour without partialitie or hypocrisie ? or is it any thing relating to these things above named , if not , in your next mention in what , or else the wise in heart will judge you to speak onely from your imaginary conceit ? but what is your end in so secret smiting them ? do you think to excuse your selves by accusing them ? and who is it that doth charge you with countenancing the quakers in their practises , either regular or irregular ? i know none that hath any ground so to charge you , but to men of understanding who can see beyond words , you rather appear to be begging a pardon of the episcopal and presbyter , and the wilde boyes and apprentices of london , by accusing the quakers as hereafter will appear , and that fearfulness and unbelieving is entered into your hearts , and so your spirits is betrayed into a slavish fear , but if ever you be accepted or owned of god , you must own that for your strength which the quakers live in , and if ever any rule for god in this nation , they must own that light , life and spirit which they are guided by , and then they will not despise , but have unitie with the quakers . to the fourth you say , whereas we are further charged with endeavouring an vniversal tolleration of all miscarriages both in things religious and civil , under pretence of liberty of conscience , it is in both respects notoriously false . and we do before the lord , that shall judge both quick and dead , yea , before angels and men , declare our utter detestation of such a toleration ; for in matters civil , we desire there may not be the least tolleration of miscarriage in any , much lesse in our selves . nor do we desire in matters of religion that popery should be tolerated , the blood of many thousands of the people of god having been barbarously shed by the professors thereof , or any persons tolerated that worship a false god , nor any that speak contemptuously and reproachfully of our lord jesus christ , nor any that deny the holy scriptures , contained in the books of the old and new testament , to be the word of god ; and yet we are not against tolerating of episcopacy , presbytery or any stinted form ; provided they do not compel any others to a compliance therewith , or a conformity thereunto . for whatever composers of any form of worship , may possibly err , it is derogating from god , and his holy word , and injurious to men to compel any to the practise thereof . answ. what confusion is here , and contradiction both to your selves and to the example of christ ? as to religion you will not tolerate popery , because the blood of many of the people of god have been barbarously shed by the professors thereof , neither will you have any persons tolerated that worship a false god , nor any that speak contemptuously and reproachfully of the lord jesus christ , nor any that deny the holy scriptures contained in the books of the old and new testament to be the word of god . and yet you are not against tolerating of episcopacy , presbytery or any stinted form ; why will you not tolerate popery as well as episcopacie ? hath not the professors of episcopacie murthered and slain , and do labour to murther and slay the people of god as well as the papists ? and why will you tolerate the common prayer among the episcopacie , and not the mass among the papists , seeing that the mass was the substance out of which the common-prayer was extracted ? hear is nothing but partialitie , to tolerate one thing and not another of the same kind , and why will you not tolerate the persons of those that worship a false god , nor the persons that deny the scriptures to be the word of god , nor the persons of those that speak contemptuously nor reproachfully of the lord jesus christ . an. if you will not tolerate their persons , then you will murther or destroy their persons , and herein you have proved the accusation against you to be true , that you have a design to murther and destroy those that differ from you in matters of religion ; as for instance , those that worship a false god , they differ from you in maters of religion , and you will not have any of their persons tolerated , then their persons must be destroyed for differing from you in matters of religion ; and they that deny the scripture ( that is the writings ) to be the word of god ( that is to be christ ) whose name is called the word of god , you will not tolerate their persons , then you will destroy them , because they differ from you in matters of religion , and those that speak reproachfully of jesus christ , you will not tolerate their persons , then you will destroy their persons , because they differ from you in matters of religion ; and thus having contradicted your selves , you have also contradicted the example of christ , for he came among those that worshipped false gods , even stocks and stones , and graven images , the works of mens hands , and he was not against tolerating their persons , neither came he to destroy mens lives because of such things , but had a gospel to preach unto them , whereby they might learn to know the living god , and turn from dumb idols , and those that spoke reproachfully against him , and said he had a devil , yet he was not against tolerating their persons , but preached the kingdom of god to them , and did bid them seek it and the righteousness thereof ; and told them that the kingdom of god was within them ; and he was among such as denyed that there was a god , or christ , resurrection , angel or spirit ; and this is more then to deny the scriptures to be the word of god , which indeed is words and not the word . and christ was not against tolerating of any of the persons , as you have express'd your selves to be , and so shewed forth a murthering spirit ; but seeing that you will not have any person tolerated that worships a false god , what must be done with their persons ? but what difference is there ( in the ground or cause of toleration ) between those that worship a false god , or they which worship the true god in a false way ? and if the persons of neither of those should be tolerated , then the toleration would but reach a little compasse : but who must be judge of that blasphemie , contempt , or reproach spoken against the lord jesus christ ? was it not blasphemie in the apostles dayes , for one to say he was a jew , and was not , revelations 2. verse 9. and is it not as great blasphemy now to say that he is a christian , or a believer , that is not ? and must not any person be tolerated that speak such works ? and must not such a person be tolerated that denies the scriptures to be the word of god ? then it appears they must not be tolerated that faith , in the beginning was the word , as john 1.4 . nor that say that christ is the word , and that the scriptures are they which testifieth of him , as joh. 5. and if we search out your toleration to the bottom , it will be reduced into this compasse , that none shall be tolerated but those that say as you say , and professe what you professe ; and you among your selves are as a kingdom divided that cannot stand , and you are not they which are fit to rule in the nation to prescribe liberty nor give toleration ; but if you had been of christs spirit , you would have professed toleration , and not destruction unto all persons in matters of religion , and then they that have the gospel of christ may minister it freely among those that worship a false god , and among those that worship the true god ignorantly , and minister it among the papists , episcopal & presbyterie , heathens , turks and pagans , which are all out of the way , and so to convince the gain-sayers , so that all the wicked impositions , cruelty , persecution and killing one another about religion would cease , and then the gospel of peace which is the power of god would rule over deceit , and truth and righteousness would increase and spread over the nations ; but you have appeared to be of a spirit of confusion and contradiction ; for when you have spoken against tolerating the persons before mentioned ; yet you say ( in contradiction to it ) you are not against tolerating episcopacie , presbyterie , or any stinted form , provided they do not compel any others to a compliance therewith , or conformitie thereunto , &c. now consider , and let even your own foolishness correct you ; is not the papists which ye have excepted against , a stinted form ? and are not those that worship a false god , a stinted form ? and are not the sadduces that deny that there is either god , christ , angel , resurrection or spirit , a stinted form ? and is not the jewes a stinted form although they speak contempteously of the lord jesus christ , which before you have said you will not tolerate their persons because they speak contempteously of the lord jesus christ ; and now you say you will tolerate , because they are a stinted form : how must the jewes be converted who have spoken contempteously and reproachfully of the lord jesus christ , calling him a deceiver , a blasphemer , and that he ●ad a devil , seeing you will not tolerate their persons until they be converted ? and how shall the heathens that worship false gods be converted , seeing their persons must not be tolerated ? and what must be done with those many hundreds of congregations in england which worship god in the spirit , and yet do deny the scriptures ( as words and writings ) of the old and new testament to be the word of god , but do confesse them to be a testimony of the word , and of him who is the beginning and end of the words , in whom , and by whom they all come to be fulfilled to the saints , what must their persons be done with , seeing they must not be tolerated ? but you may say , that those things was spoken in your haste , or at least in your fear , whereby you were surprized in the vproar of the rude boyes and apprentices of london ; but a little fear entering into the hypocrisie doth try your spirits , and cause you to bring forth the intents of your hearts , as in your paper is manifest . to the last you say , forasmuch as we are charged to murder and destroy those that differ from us in matters of religion , we do not only abhor and detest it , as a cursed practice ; but we hope have approved our selves , both in this city and the nation to the contrary , notwithstanding the great provocation of some , who have endeavoured our ruine . for that we desire is just liberty to men , as men ; that every man may be preserved in his own just rights ; and that christians may be preserved as christians , though of different apprehensions in some things of religion ; in the prosecution whereof , our lives shall not be dear unto us , when we are thereunto lawfully called : the designs of our adversaries in these calumnies are to mis-represent us to some people fearing god ; and also to incense the rude multitude against us , purposely to provoke them ( if possible ) to destroy us . answ. in what you have before expressed , you have more given then taken away the occasion of this charge against you , by your instancing the not tolerating of such persons before mentioned ; for if you did ( as you say ) desire the just liberty of men as men , then every man without respect to apprehensions , perswasions or worships , as a man and person should be tolerated , that those who are christians might inform them of the true god when they worship false gods ; and hereby you give great occasion unto those that seek occasion from you , when you with a general consent cry against tolerating the persons of so many sorts of people about differing from you in religion ; and as for some of them whom ye would accuse as irregular , many by experience can witnesse , that neither weapon nor tongue formed against them can prosper ; and the time may come when you may be glad to be upholden with a little of their strength , and not to reject those whom god hath , doth , and will own for his people in the middest of their enemies ; for god hath made them even as eyes to behold the spirits of men , and the changings of their wayes , and to give them a reproof in due season when they darken wisdom and confound their matter by words without knowledge , in false fears and haste when they are out of patience , and out of faith in god , as the baptists here have done , and the fearful and unbelieving cannot accomplish the righteousnes of god , neither will he bring forth his intended work by them ; but such as are of a true spirit , that looks onely at the glory of god and setting up of his truth , who are come to the spiritual weapons , & doth not wrestle with flesh and blood , but with the powers of darkness and with spiritual wickednesse , and such as are not false accusers of others , but seeks the good of all men , such will the lord honour and exalt in his work , and they shall perfect his praise . so friends , you have been hasty to utter words before the lord , for which his reproof justly comes upon you ; therefore let your words be few , and mind the fear of the lord god which is the beginning of wisdom , and that will slay your false fears , from which unsavoury & unsound words hath proceeded ; for your religion is vain while your tongue is not bridled , for it is better to be still and keep silence , then to utter words from the line of confusion ( that is stretched over you ) thereby to get a name in the earth , which line all people walk in , but those who are led by the spirit of god to speak words that cannot be condemned , for it is the spirit of the lord god and his power which must slay the enmitie in you which is the ground of your prejudice and hard speeches against the lambs of christ , which when that is slain within , then those evil fruits of the lips will cease without , and then the fountain of life will open in you which brings forth fruits of another nature ; and when the fruits of your lips is truth , rightteousness , and peace , then will you have followship with the father and the son , and with us who walk in his light . and whereas to the said declaration of the baptists , something was written in answer to part of it in short by another hand , not knowing the one of the other , but being found to be both of service as to return their wickednesse upon themselves , it is thought meet that the same also be hereunto annexed ; and here is also something in answer to some particular positions drawn up by the independants , so called , wherein their folly and weaknesse is also discovered , and all may see what enmity lodges in the hearts of all men against the despised people called quakers . an answer to a declaration of the people called anabaptists , in and about the city of london , wherein their weakness and ignorance is discovered under their own hands to the city and nation , as hereby may appear . friends , whereas your declaration consisteth of five particulars , four , of which is not or so much concernment to me to answer ; but as for one of them , for the nations sake , and for the truths sake , and that you may be reproved even you the heads and principal men of your congregations , and because you are such under whose hands your declaration passeth , therefore in that consideration with many others , this i return as an answer to you , and to the city and nation , in pursuit of yours that hath proceeded from a heart of unbelief , and unto evil and malicious intents against a despised people whom the lord hath owned , and will own though you and the whole world do reject them . and whereas you say , you are mis-represented to the nation , that you do countenance the people called quakers in their irregular practice ; and to clear yourselves you say , it is well known to all there are none more opposite to their irregular practises then we are , ( say you ) nor are there any that they have exprest more contradiction to then against us , though their provocation therein hath not put us on a desire ( say you ) of depriving them of their just liberty while they live morally honest and peaceable in the nation , &c. answ. oh ye heads and principal men , and ye chief pastors , elders , and members ( so called ) of churches , what have ye done ? and wherefore have you thus proceeded , why have ye renounced an innocent people that never did you harm , nor ever gave any offence unto you , saving in crying against the deadnesse of your forms and traditions , and seeming religious practises , and reproving evil in you ; alas for you ( ye accounted wise men ) do you judge an advantage will be unto your selves in this thing ? or do you think to work a disadvantage unto us by your renouncing and denial of us ? i must tell you , we are not troubled hereat for our own sakes , neither is any part of our hope or confidence concerning you made void , for we never looked upon some of you to be otherwise then our enemies in your hearts . oh ye hipocrites whom god will judge because of your hypocrisie , who now so much as in you lies ( if it were in your power ) you would leave us to the mercilesness of cruel men , you would save your selves , and leave us to the mercy of the devil ; but though you renounce us , yet the lord hath owned us , and will own us to your grief ; and what are you become our accusers ? are you become chargers of us with irregular practise ? are you endeavouring to make us more odious in the eyes of wicked men then we are for righteousness sake ? but wherefore have ye done this ? is it to save your selves from reproaches ? have you therefore reproached us , and have you sought to make us vile that your selves might appear free ? and have you thought to gain the favour of the wicked , & to make a peace with your enemies by reviling of us unto them ? is this your end , o ye dissemblers , to reproach us to the nation and city behind our backs ? you church members so called ) and teachers , and pastors , and principal men that would save your selves and gratifie the devil and joyn in union with the wicked , and make your selves friends with them by slandering and renouncing the peaceable people , who are more so then your selves , and none of them guilty of ●rregularitie as much as some of you ; though you would fawn upon the nation and city by renouncing of us , as if we were irregular and so and so ; but do you think the nation and city have not taken notice ? or however hereby they may . what if i say unto them and you , that none of the quakers ever were so instrumental by illegal opposition , for the turning out of parliaments and changing the government of this nation into confusion , like as some of you anabaptists have been ; and this the city and nation may take notice of the irregularitie of some of your selves , who have been instrumental even by illegal opposition , and perfect tyrannie in mens account , and treacherie also to the turning out parliaments , and thereby wronging the nation for their own advantages ; so that the practise of some of you hath been more unlawful and con●●●rie to law then ours hath been , and the city and nation may take notice of it ; as your declaration is to them , so is this my answer ; never any quaker ( so called ) in war-like posture hath stood in defiance , and been instruments to turn out peoples lawful representatives ; did not some of your brethren , even of the anabaptists , take commission from the late parliament , and no lesse then vowing fidelity to them , and yet presently rising in opposition to them , and turning them out of doors ? and was not this treachery and hypocrisie , and irregularitie ? and can the nation charge any of them called quakers with any such work ? no they cannot ; but some of the anabaptists they may , even with this and other the like illegal dealing ; and more i might instance , and not only charge behind your backs falsly as you have done of us , but i may affirm to your faces , and justly prove these and such things upon you ; but why have not you named what irregular practise the quakers are guilty of ? i charge you you subscribers against us , and accusers of us to prove your accusation , i say i charge you before the lord and this whole nation and city to prove your accusation , and to instance what particular practises performed and owned amongst us , either in relation to just government in church or state that are irregular , and you shall have a reply , though you say , there are none more opposite to our irregular practice then you are . oh how fain would you flatter and fawn upon our enemies to make peace with the devil ; how would you creep by craft and joyn into a league with our and your enemies ? and how fain would you be at peace with them and leave us even to their mercilesness if it were in your power ? have we ever dealt thus by you ? have we ever sought to render you rebels and traytors to the nation as you in effect have done to us ? have we ever sought occasions against you , and to present you to the nation as vile as we could for to save our selves , and leave you to the wil of your enemies ? this have you done to us , and we leave you to be rewarded even by the lord who will never renounce us , nor cast us out , though you do in such a time as this , a time of confusion and distraction , wherein if the lord did not appear to be our defence more then men , we should be swallowed up of our enemies ; and must you , even a separate people , members , pastors and ministers of churches ( so called ) renounce us at this season , on purpose to have us destroyed so much as you may ? well , we have not dealt so with you , neither do we desire to uncover your nakedness to the nation , you had not had thus much if you had not been the occasion of it your selves ; and surely what you have done in this particular , some of your own members will not accept it from you with thanks to you ; but i shall say more to you , when i have under all your hands the particular practises which you charge to be irregular ; and though there hath been and is contradictions between us and you in matter of religion , and difference in particular practises about church and ministry , and orders , &c. yet what is this ? this was amongst our selves , though hereof you have no reason to boast , as of any victory that you have obtained over us in any such controversie , neither hath the spirit of god so appeared in that authority among you , as that you have gained any from us to you , but rather the contrary ; but what of these contentions ? we have never so contended with you , as that we have hated your persons , or sought to betray you into the hands of devouring mouths , the lord is our witness in this , though you have done contrary ( even sought to betray our persons in this your work ) and i must tell you dishonestly and undiscreetly have you done in this matter , who never could unto this day in any contest between us about religious matters convince us of error or irregular practises , though now you have accused us to the whole nation , and not as in a way of debate about religion , but as in matter of state irregularity ; whereby plainly appears that you seek to betray us , even our persons into the hands of our merciless enemies , and you would make peace with them , and deliver us into their merciless hands ; and thereby shewed hatred , not unto us as upon the account of religion only , but even hatred to our persons , and hath accused us as of personal irregularitie ; and so hath not shewed love to our persons , but rather sought our destruction : oh ye wicked men to whose charge god shall lay this iniquity of treachery and unfaithful dealing to us , even as with brethren , which is the most deceitful iniquity . and alas for you , what are your desires of depriving us of our just liberty ? god shall give us liberty , and from him we shall enjoy it whether you will or no ; and for our just liberty we shall not be beholding to you , though i must tell you , if our liberty were in your power it is greatly to be doubted , and even your own dealing in this your declaration gives occasion for it , that our liberty would be enslaved if it were in your hands , but we bless the lord it is in his hand & not in yours ; for so much of treachery towards us hath here appeared , even in giving us up ( so much as in you is ) to the will of our enemies , and the spirit is in you which would betray brethren , that for the time to come we can never trust you ; but we do not give our power to you to enjoy our liberty from you , nor ever shall ; and if we walk moraly honest and peaceable in the nation , it is more then you do in this matter , for this your practise is not morally honest in accusing of us behind our backs to the nation , and city , and authorities thereof of irregularity , &c. though as i have said never any of us had so great a hand by open opposition tending to make war in the nation as some of you in some things i might instance , even for their sakes to whom you have accused us , and that we are more peaceable then some of your selves the nation and city knows ; have we thrust our selves into arms , and sought offices and places , and commands as some of you ? have ever any of us appeared in actual arms against parliament & nation as some of you ? have we given the city or the nation by any visible appearance to fear a war from us , as you have done ? let the nation & city , & the witness in all mens consciences judge ; so that we are known to be peaceable as much or more then your selves , for we have never sought to you to take up arms with us , as some among you have sought to others , which may demonstrate that we are as peaceable in the nation , if not more then you ; and so you needed not to have premised such a thing on our behalf . and thus i have in short returned your secret treachery upon {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} own heads , and answered that same part of your declaration wherein i and the truth , and the whole flock of god was any way concerned ; and as for the rest of your declaration i will not seek occasions against it , though in some other things also therein exprest , i might search out your hearts , and discover the rottenness of them ; and where you say you declare magistracy to be an ordinance ; &c. might not i tell the nation and city that you are not content with magistracy , except of your own sect ; and might not i say , why were not you contented with that assembly of men that last sat ? and wherefore was it that you even some of you anabaptists were the chief instruments with swords in your hands to dissolve them , and so were instruments in bringing the nation into present confusion . and whereas you speak of the publick ministers of the nation , you are far from endeavouring to destroy them ( say you ) and it is your duty to stand by them and preserve them from all violence and injury , &c. to which i answer , what are you about to make a league and a covenant with antichrist ? have you for these many years been opposing them in words , and are you now recanting of what you have done when you are sensible of a danger upon you ? and will you now bind your selves to stand by them and preserve them from all injury , and even as they are ministers too ? but let me ask you , do you look upon them to be ministers of christ , or of antichrist ? if true ministers of christ , wherefore do you oppose them and cry against them in your pulpits , and hath formerly your selves and some of your brethren yet do publickly oppose them both by word and writing , oh! ye hypocrites . but if they are ministers of antichrist , then how is it that you will stand by them and preserve them as such , and would bind it upon them as their duty to stand by and preserve you ? is not this a league with hell and death ? are you turned backwards into love and affection towards them again , and so lost your former principles ? and is your zeal quite grown cold , or are you now onely flattering and dawbing with the ministers , because you see danger from them , while you seek but greater advantage against them ? they may indeed tell you they look upon you as not destroyers of their wayes and practises , neither to ease the nation from any burthen which they have laid upon it ; for it is manifest though you deny them in some particulars some of you , yet you can cry against that in some of them , and yet uphold the same thing ; i may lawfully instance that some of your brethren , some in this nation , and some in ireland takes or have lately taken tithes for preaching , and have yearly stipends , and so much by the year out of the states treasure for preaching , 100 l. 200 l. and 300 l. a piece by the year , which indeed doth shew that you are not intending to destroy their oppressing and abominable practises , but the rather that you would turn them out of great places and benefits , and turn your selves in ; oh! deceit and wickedness which i am forced to lay open upon this occasion of your own just provocation hereunto ; and as for their preserving you and you them against such as do oppose you , they may easily joyn with you in this , if they could hope in your faithfulness , for some of you and your members have shewed as much enmity , have been open persecutors , even as they and their members have been , and your members have been sending the people of god to prison , and persecuting them even as the common priests of the nation : and you appear to be guided by the same spirit in many things , and if they be antichristian in their wayes and practises , its sure that you are not of christ , because you are like unto them in nature . and in that you say , you would have none tollerated in their religion that deny the scriptures to be the word of god , but you would tollerate episcopacy , presbytery or a stinted form , &c. say you . to which i say , i know that spirit which you are of , if it had its full authority would tolerate none but your selves , for your spirit in nature differs not from the spirit of the church of rome ; and what are you now for tollerating episcopacy , who were once your selves ( in your zeal for god , when your sincerity was not darkned , nor your hearts so much corrupted through places of honour , and through such things as now they are ) instruments to the pulling down of episcopacy , and will you now tollerate it again , and help to set it up , and build what you have destroyed , as if you recanted of what you had done , but plainly shewing that you are not of the same spirit that once you were of , but have lost sincerity , and can embrace idolatry , for once ye were the men that did oppose it , and did violently help to pluck it down ; but now you are for tolleration . oh! unconstant men this is to you , not herein discovering my judgement in the case , and if episcopacy , why may not popery be tollerated ? seeing they are one and the self same in ground and nature , and not much different in appearance , and you may agree to tollerate a stinted form in others , because your selves are in a stinted form also ; for what is yours else but a form , crying up your water and bread and wine , and differing from the world onely in these outward things , when as the city and nation knows you are men as covetous , as worldly minded , as ambitious , as self-seeking of honour and places as any others in the nation , and your religion appears to be a ●tinted form as much as others ; alas poor men , you have discovered your hearts in your declaration , and according to the corruption thereof i cannot but answer you ; and there are some that deny the scriptures to be the word of god , and say they are the words of god , and a declaration , and a treatise of what the saints believed and enjoyed ; and christ is the word of god , that may in time to come be tollerated in their religion in this nation , though you have renounced them : but while they are owned and regarded of the lord , they respect not your love nor hatred who are mortal men , and your breath in your nostrils , and must fall and perish as the dung in all your beauty , and your profession of religion , before the coming of the son of god . and in your post-script you say , you have under your hands sent forth your declaration in behalf of your selves , and others of your judgement ; but i must tell you , i do believe there are some even of those called anabaptists which will reject your work , and to them my answer is not , for i spare them : but to you fearful hypocrites in a time of danger , that have in this juncture of time renounced us without ground or reason in the sight of god , but for your ends , as if you would gain the favour of the nation and city by denyal of us , and looking upon your selves to be reproached because of us , when as you are a company of unworthy men , even unworthy of our reproaches , and to escape them have denied us , as seeming to clear your selves , but you are deceived in this matter , and it shall turn to work against you in the nation , and in the city ; for we have a more surer witness in their consciences , even in the consciences of all people that we are of god , then you have ; for take but away your outward water , and bread and wine , and some few outward practises , & what do you differ from the worst sort of men in the nation ; for doth not pride and hypocrisie , and self-love , and covetousness , and the love of this world abound amongst you , as much as amongst any others ? the witness in peoples consciences knows it , which shall be a witness for us and against you . you may indeed have gained league with the worst sort of men in the nation , but you have not gained the sincerity in people , and while we have that on our side to witness for us , take you the rude multitude , for we are not discouraged at all concerning this thing , but the rather do glory in the lord though we be denied of all , for though men forsake us , yet the lord careth for us ; and your own doing shall return upon your own heads : and thus much is sufficient to the substance of your declaration , and if i receive any reply , i shall expect it under the hands of you all , that i may further search and discover you unto your selves , and to the nation . and whereas there is a manuscript goes aboad , consisting of five particulars , which is said that it was delivered in to the committee of safety , as advice and councel to them : but who the authours of it are is something uncertain , but certain it is , that some of the called independant ministers and pastors were the chief promotors of it , and in the coppy which was delivered to my hands , it is said , these five particulars were the result of a little synod made up of presbyterians , independants and anabaptists ; but whether it is so or no i leave that , and would say something to some of the particulars , and even to the committee of safety and officers of the army , and all others of the nation for their better information , then the same paper describeth to them . the third particular consisteth about the magistrates power in matters of faith and worship , and the authours say , though they greatly prize christian liberty , yet they profess utter dislike and abhorrency of an vniversal toleration , as being contrary to the mind of god in his word . answ. it appears the authours are lovers of themselves , and prizers of their own liberty , but not of the liberty of others , but do utterly dislike and abhor the toleration of others , which may indeed be more righteous then themselves , and this is no less then the very principle of the whore of rome , which promotes her own liberty and makes others slaves , and abhors toleration to any but themselves ; and they plead scriptures as well as you for proof of their religion , and they will say all that differs from them are contrary to the scriptures , even as you say , when as there is very little better foundation in the scriptures for your religion then there is for theirs ; and it is doubtful to many what religion this day extant is perfectly according to the scriptures ; but yet thus much may be said , that church and that religion which are not in the same spirit as gave forth the scriptures , are not according unto the scriptures , and he that can distinguish of this , and who it is that hath the same spirit that gave forth the scriptures , are onely able to judge what religion is according to the scriptures ; but can the authors shew plainly out of the scriptures that their religion is onely according thereunto , and all others the contrary ? and until they prove this , why may not the rulers that are or may be in this nation , give toleration unto other sorts of people as well as to the independants the supposed authours of this paper ? the fourth particular consisteth concerning tithes , and say they , the taking away of tithes for maintenance of ministers , until as full a maintenance be as equally secured and as legally setled , tends very much to the distruction of the ministry , and preaching of the gospel in these nations . answ. alas for you poor ignorant creatures , ye foolish men , that seems to have no understanding of the ministry and gospel of christ ; do you indeed think that the true ministry of christ and the preaching of the gospel depends upon maintenance by tithes ? oh! ye robbers of god , who have secretly dishonoured him in your hearts , and publickly disgraced him as much as in you lies to the nation , as if he were not able to save his ministrie and the preaching of his gospel from destruction if tithes be taken away ; surely , you err in your judgements , and have no acquaintance with god , nor with his ministry nor gospel ; who have thus dishonoured him in setting up that maintenance by the forcible and unjust oppression of tithes , to be the preserving of ministry and gospel , and as if tithes were the upholding of ministry and gospel ; and you have thus falsly and wickedly measured god , his ministry and gospel , by the wickedness of your own hearts , who seems to be indeed of those hirelings that cheats souls for money , and runs for the gift like baalam , and for the lucre like the evil beasts and slow bellies ; and so i do believe that your false ministrie indeed and your feined pretence of preaching the gospel doth depend upon great sums of money and upon large maintenances , & we believe that indeed is the chief reason of your preaching and of your ministry , and it is very possible that your ministry and preaching may fall which is antichristian , when tithes and hire is taken away , which ministry dependeth thereupon , but the true ministry and preaching of the gospel will god maintain and uphold 〈…〉 of tithes being vanquished , and i hope some of the rulers of this nation and officers of the army will not believe your advice ; but yet you seem to be willing to renounce tithes if you could have as full a maintenance setled another way , so that however great maintenance comes , you regard not , so you can have that , whether by this way of oppression or the other , it s your maintenance you love and followes after , and seekes unto the powers of the earth for that end ; and how equally and legally tithes have been setled which you seem to affirm , let all good people judge ; given they were , and setled first in our nation , by the popes authoritie , to be the maintenance of that whores ministers , and all the laws which gave them and setled them have been antichristian and oppression in the nation , and there is the guilt of blood and of cruel unjust sufferings lying upon this nation in that very cause of tithes , and the hand of the lord is gone out against it , and against all contenders for it , and god will redeem the nation from under it , though you be putting your strength to uphold it through your hypocritical prayers and preaching and flatteries with god and men . the fifth particular is , these authors desire that countenance be not given unto nor trust reposed in the hands of quakers , being persons of such principles that are destructive to the gospel and inconsistent with peace and civil society . answ. here your wickedness and the malice of your hearts is let forth against the despised people , for their righteousness sake ; & this spirit of yours would not onely discountenance them but destroy them from the face of the earth , if it were in your hands , and you are worse then baalam ever was , and far more blind then he , for you are as it were seeking inchantments against the people of god for money , and you see not the goodly tents of jacob as he did , nor the people that are altogether blessed ; oh! ye envious persons that are even a preparing as much as in you is the destruction of a peaceable people , and that would keep them in slaverie under you , and you would have the countenance of the powers of the earth , but they must not , and you would monopolize all the places of trust for advantage to your selves , and you would hardly allow the people of god a place on the ground ; oh! ye sinful hypocrites and flatterers and slanderers of the just , but what need you have made such preparation against them , do they seek places of honour among you , do they delight in great places among men ? do they love to be great in this world ? nay their kingdom is from above , and they reject the countenance of the beasts authority , and they reject any confidence that the dragon and unjust powers can repose in them , and you need not have been afraid in this matter , and thereupon slandered us , and have back-bited us to the powers of the earth ; what do you fear ? even the thing which you fear will god in a judgement bring upon you , and there is a government to be set up in this nation , even that which is of the lamb ; and your antichristian monarchy the beast with all his heads and horns shall fall to the ground , and the lord may bring your fear upon you to your utter confusion , though you are making defences all that you can for your selves and your kingdom , and this seems to be a day wherein every mans heart is tryed , and every man and sort of people is pouring forth the malitiousness of their hearts against the poor people in scorn called quakers ; what say the papists and episcopal men ? quakers are a new sect and deceivers , &c. and what say the presbyterians and the independants of them ? oh! they are seducers , they are witches , they are false prophets , they are vagabonds not worthy of countenance , &c. nor any place of trust in the nation , &c. what say the anabaptists of them ? o they are blasphemers and hereticks and irregular persons and distructive to gospel , &c. this and such like is the cry of these and all sorts of people against the poor dispised people whom the eternal god hath made dreadful unto them all , who shall be the rod in his hand to break them and confound them , and utterly to destroy their antichristian kingdom ; for they are beloved of the lord though hated of all men , and though the whole body of the beast and antichrist and every horn of his head do set themselves to war against the lamb and his followers , and though all these sorts of people mentioned and some others do at this very day pour out their fury and malice against this people , yet shall they not be confounded , for their trust is in the living god , and as sure as the lord lives , the fear that people have of the prosperity of this people shall come upon them , and without weapon or arm of flesh , or the multitude of an host of men will their god dash their enemies to pieces ; and all ye sects whatsoever that are risen in opposition against us , what do we regard your fury and madness against us ? what do we fear your revilings , you uncircumcised philistines , we mock at your terrour , and we reject your strength as the strength of a straw , we dispise your authority which is not of god , as the authority of so many bryars and thorns , we can glory over you in the lord , what are you , and from whence did you come , is not babylon your city ? and is not the great whore your mother , and the mother of harlots your nurse ? and what is your growth but even like the grass of a summers growth that 's soon cut down and withered , and like the leaf of a summer tree that utterly perisheth in winter ? the mighty day of the lord is at your door , confusion is begun amongst you , and the sword of one may destroy another , and the strength of one shall rear another , and the remnant that is left shall be destroyed , and we must overcome them without sword or carnal weapon , and this shall come to pass in a day ; and the eye that is yet blind shall see it , and the child that is yet undelivered shall be a conquerour over the beast , and over his image , and over all you false sects , and over every horn that is risen up in envy against the lamb and his followers , the time of the lambs kingdom is at hand , behold , behold ye mountains of the earth , the sentence of eternal vengeance will pass upon you , ye hypocritical professors ; ye pastors , elders , members and ministers of churches ( so called ) the decree of the almighty is coming out against you , you have provoked him by your wickedness towards him and his people , even to the destruction of your own selves ; wherefore tremble before the lord , for his dread and the weight of his hand shall be upon your consciences . oh nation , mourn over thy iniquities which have provoked god against thee , and if men turn not unto him , his sore judgment will be upon thee , we are not for this party or the other , neither do we justifie one side in opposition to another , for we see the earth is corrupted , and all sorts of men that are this day striving one sort , against another , are in a wrong way and in a wrong spirit , and we cannot side with any of them , but we rather mourn over the nation who is torn in pieces by the ambitious spirit of her pretended rulers , and we desire the repentance of all , and not the destruction of any , and we are for gods part and not for men . e. bvrrovgh . the end . some briefe considerations on doctor featley his book, intituled, the dipper dipt, wherein in some measure is discovered his many great and false accusations of divers persons, commonly called anabaptists, with an answer to them, and some brief reasons of their practice. in seven sections, viz. i. dr. featley his secret and haynous accusing the honourable parliament. ii. that he is guilty of greater errors, than to go into the water to be dipt. ... vi. some reasons alledged against infants being baptized. a question proposed to consideration, that if it be an error to be baptized again, whether the punishment, some would have inflicted upon them, and some have suffered, be not too great? vii. how many sorts of anabaptists he saith there are, and what they hold. whereunto is added, what is conceived the doctors mysticall frontispiece may more properly declare. / by samuel richardson. richardson, samuel, fl. 1643-1658. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a91797 of text r212288 in the english short title catalog (thomason e270_22). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 63 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 11 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a91797 wing r1414 thomason e270_22 estc r212288 99870926 99870926 123324 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a91797) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 123324) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 45:e270[22]) some briefe considerations on doctor featley his book, intituled, the dipper dipt, wherein in some measure is discovered his many great and false accusations of divers persons, commonly called anabaptists, with an answer to them, and some brief reasons of their practice. in seven sections, viz. i. dr. featley his secret and haynous accusing the honourable parliament. ii. that he is guilty of greater errors, than to go into the water to be dipt. ... vi. some reasons alledged against infants being baptized. a question proposed to consideration, that if it be an error to be baptized again, whether the punishment, some would have inflicted upon them, and some have suffered, be not too great? vii. how many sorts of anabaptists he saith there are, and what they hold. whereunto is added, what is conceived the doctors mysticall frontispiece may more properly declare. / by samuel richardson. richardson, samuel, fl. 1643-1658. [2], 18 p. [s.n], london, : printed, febr. 25. 1645. a reply to: featley, daniel. katabaptistai katapystoi. the dipper dipt. or the anabaptists duck'd and plung'd over head and eares, at a disputation in southwark (wing f585). reproduction of the original in the british library. eng featley, daniel, 1582-1645. -katabaptistai katapystoi. anabaptists -england -early works to 1800. a91797 r212288 (thomason e270_22). civilwar no some briefe considerations on doctor featley his book, intituled, the dipper dipt,: wherein in some measure is discovered his many great an richardson, samuel 1645 12032 13 0 0 0 0 0 11 c the rate of 11 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-09 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-09 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion some brief considerations on doctor featley his book , intituled , the dipper dipt , wherein in some measure is discovered his many great and false accusations of divers persons , commonly called anabaptists , with an answer to them , and some brief reasons of their practice . in seven sections , viz. i. dr. featley his secret and haynous accusing the honourable parliament . ii. that he is guilty of greater errors , then to go into the water to be dipt . iii. his false accusations against the anabaptists , examined and answered . iv. how in a disputation hee discovered his subtilty and pride . v. that he justifieth dipping in rivers to be a lawfull manner of baptizing . vi . some reasons alledged against infants being baptized . a question proposed to consideration , that if it be an error to be baptized again , whether the punishment , some would have infflicted upon them , and some have suffered , be not too great ? vii . how many sorts of anabaptists he saith there are , and what they hold . whererunto is added , what is conceived the doctors mysticall frontispice may more properly declare . blessed are yee when men revile you , and persecute you , and shall say all manner of evill against you falsly for my sake : rejoy●● , and be exceeding glad , for great is your reward in heaven , for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you , mat. 11. 12. see mat. 19. 29. by samuel richardson . london , printed , febr. 25. 1645. some brief considerations on doctor featley his book intituled , the dipper dipt . section i. doctor featley his secret and haynous accusation of the honourable parliament . doctor featley , under the colour of aiming at anabaptists , strikes the parliament , and secretly wounds them with his malignant pen , in his epistle to his friend , hee complains of his corporall thraldome , and that his pressures are unsufferable , his person confined , his estate sequestred , his losses unvaluable , his books and both his pulpits taken from him , that his friends & himself sought earnestly , but could not obtain that liberty which paul injoyed when he was in prison in rome , to preach the gospel to his fellow-prisoners : observe , what doth he not say , that the parliament are hinderers of the preaching of the gospel of christ ? what , are they worser then heathen emperours and magistrates ? can they not be prevailed with , to yeeld that the gospel should be preached to prisoners ? &c. o heavie charge ! it seems he hath a great mind to preach the gospel , but the honourable parliament have had cause enough to fear that he would so mixe it with the leaven of malignancy till hee had so sowred it , that all that should taste of it , were in danger to be poysoned with it ; and so they did justly , in hindring him from preaching such a gospel as this is : and in pag. 32. the government of archbishops , &c. is not antichristian , contrary to the ordinance of parliament , and nicknames them brownists and barrowists that hold so : and in p. 214 , 215 , 216. he saith , this kind of sacriledge we speak of , whereby churches and churchmen are defrauded of their due , is no better nor worse then robbing god , and pronounceth a curse upon a curse to them ; what doth he lesse , then charge the parliament with sacriledge ? what punishment he deserves , i leave it to them whom it concerns : also he saith , p. 70. ( speaking of the separatists and anabaptists ) that the magistrate , who , though by present connivence seems to give them line , yet no doubt it is , that they may the more intangle themselves , and more easily be caught ; as if the parliament ●ought to insnare any that are loyall to the state . suppose they conceive they are in an error , how knowes hee , but that their forbearance is out of a desire and hope , that upon their better information they will gladly ●●forme what is amisse , themselves considering that many of the separation and anabaptists are well known to be honest and conscionable men , both towards god and man ? and concerning the doctor , when he reckoneth up the enemies of the state , in his epistle to mr. downam , he doth not name the malignants to be any of them , which declares he is not yet healed of his malignancy . sect. ii. wherein it appears that the doctor is guilty of greater errors , then to be dipped in the river . doctor featley holds these errors , viz. that archbishops , &c. are not antichristian , p. 32. and that the ceremonies of the church of england are not idolatrous nor antichristian , p. 32. that baptisme is a means of salvation , and p. 40 , 41 , 50. that it is the remedy of originall sin , p. 41. that regeneration by water , is to take away the filth of sin ; p. 41. that children of faithfull parents receive some measure of grace in their infancie ; p. 59. that there is no command or example , that women took the sacrament , that the river is defiled by dipping a man or woman into it ; he saith , baptizing of infants began in the apostles dayes , p. 19. and yet no man can name the time when it began , p. 52 , 53 , 66. ( which is so high a contradiction , as no illiterate man can reach it ) also he saith , that those children which cannot be taught , may be made disciples by their parents , p. 39. or god fathers , p. 57. and that children make a profession of their faith and repentance at their baptisme by these sureties , p. 76. might he not as truly say , that the faith of their parents or godfathers is given to the children , and so it 's theirs ? illiterate men must of necessity refer these things to the school-men , as tho. aquinas , &c. also he saith , that baptisme is the entrance into the church , p. 23 , 46. 63. and hee that is cast out of the church , upon repentance must be received in again , p. 29. then it seems he must be re-baptized , else how shall he get in if it be the entrance ? so by the doctors doctrine he holds re-baptizing , which we deny , and so he is an anabaptist , and not we : also the doctor saith , that christ is the son of god , not only in respect of his temporall generation , but also in respect of his eternall generation , p. 3. and that the spirit is said to proceed from the father , because he proceeds from the father originally ; and that the spirit hath a dependence from both , pag. 23. but if christ , as he was god had a beginning , he could not be god if he had no beginning . how can christ , as he is god , be the son of god in respect of his eternall generation any more then the father is his son by eternall generation ? secondly , if the spirit of god be god , ( as he is ) equall with the father and the son , all three infinite , without beginning , each having the whole divine essence , and yet there is but one essence : how can the spirit proceed from the father originally , any more then the father from the spirit ? and how can the spirit of god have any more dependance upon the father and the sonne , then they have upon him , seeing whatsoever is infinite , can have no dependance upon any thing ? therefore the doctors words contain in them the nature of blasphemy ; and to define how one can be three , and three but one , & alwayes so remain , is above the reach of any man : i may say to him , as mat. 7. 3. luk. 6. 41 , 42 sect. 3. wherein is contained doctor featley his large conscience in laying so many and false accusations and wicked errors , which he ( like a mad man ) shoots desperately against the anabaptists ( as he calls them ) to wound their reputation , that they might appeare more vile in the eyes of the ignorant , and procure their destruction . the doctor chargeth the anabaptists in the title page of his booke , with high attempts against the state , which i confesse were an impiety insufferable , and all that are guilty of this charge , ought to die for it : but in no place of his book he doth so much as offer to prove the least part of this charge against any one of this kingdome , or the next to it ; hee speakes as if two or three in germany whom he pleaseth to call anabaptists , which he saith were guilty of this sinne : but what is that to us if they be guilty of these & the like wickednesses ? should not the doctor have done better to have written his book in their language ( if he be not illiterate in it ) and sent it into those parts of the world as a means to reforme them ? as for our parts , we can justly plead , not guilty , and challenge all in the world to prove it against us if they can . if the doctors meaning be that we are guilty of rebellion , because we side with the parliament against those that goe about to destroy the kingdome : wee answer , we doe so to preserve the state , and this is not against the state . but the doctor saith , that we are a cruell and bloody sect , by imbroyling kingdomes in warres , and by raising persecutions against gods servants , page 210. answ. it is well knowne that we were not the causers of these warres , and our desires are , that god would end them , and settle truth and peace in all places in the world . and it is well known , we desire no man might be forced against his judgement and conscience in any way of worshipping of god ; no not to the true worship , but rather to pray to god to open their eyes , and wait with long patience till god perswade them ; and if they never see the light to walke in it , to leave all to god . and if so , which way doth this tend to persecution of the saints , let all judge . but he saith , wee are a lying and blasphemous sect , yet he alledges not one proof to prove us so , and wee are content that your bookes with ours may be examined , to see which is the lying and blaspheming sect. also he accuseth the anabaptists to be an impure and carnall sect , p. 207. yet he brings not any one instance of any one act of uncleannesse of any one anabaptist in all england . and seeing hee could not produce any witnesse of such a thing here , he for proof steps to rome to search the popes , and names three of them , sergius , gregory , and leo , and that the pope tolerated stewes , ( he might as well have said , a priesthood with holy orders . ) but the doctor is not ignorant that these popes were not anabaptists : but suppose they had , is this a good reasoning to say the churches of christ in the apostles dayes , were a filthy unclean sect , and for proof name 1. cor. 5. 1. that one was guilty of fornication , yea one who had his fathers wife : and to say the priesthood of england are a filthy and unclean sect , and for proof alledge what the priests of england have been guilty of , neer our doores , as one john wilson , committed buggery with fifteen men . see the first century of scandalous ministers , p. 1. &c. and , doctor featley , if you please to joyne issue with us , we will confine our selves to this kingdom , whether your sect of priests , or us be most guilty of uncleannesse , and upon that side it falls by the clearest proofe , shall with my consent , be chronicled for the filthy and unclean sect. so he makes a dreadfull noyse of the fearfull judgements of god that befell the ringleaders of this sect , and of their deaths ; and to prove this , he names elymas the sorcerer , who was struck with blindnesse , p. 218. but hee was not an anabaptist , but withstood the apostles , and the truth they professed , and they practised dipping . so that he is recorded for an example for others , that they oppose not christs servants , and the truth they professe , lest god meet with them also in like manner ; but he names 200 and odde were put to death , who were , as he saith , anabaptists . answer . this is no more then the scripture saith , rev. 13. 7. they shall make warre with the saints and overcome them . he saith in vienna some anabaptists were tied together with ropes and drowned , two were burned beyond southwarke , and a little after five dutch anabaptists were burned in smithfield , pag. 55. it rejoyceth us that men suffer for any truth ; behold how he honoureth those men that suffered : but he saith , they dip one another after their manner with a kind of spell , containing the heads of their erroneous tenets , and their ingaging themselves in their schismatical covenants . we answer , the manner of our baptisme is as the apostles was , and there is no other words expressed in our baptizing , then what is expressed in the 28 of matthew part of the 19. verse , and no mention of any tenets , much lesse erroneous ones : nor no words of any covenants are mentioned at all . wee confesse when any is to be baptized at the water side , the administrator goeth to prayer sutable to the occasion , and after goe both into the water , and useth the words mat. chap. 28. part of the 19. verse ; and comming forth again , they goe to prayer againe , and also returne thankes to god , and how this can be a spell we cannot see . but he further accuseth the anabaptists , for running into corners to meet in . we answer , if he mean houses to be the corners , we confesse it , and they are the best places we have ; but if he or any other will doe us so much favour to procure more larger and publick places for us to meet in , we are ready to embrace them with much thankfulnesse . but , saith the doctor , they goe men and women together stark naked into their jordans , pag. 36. & 203. wee answer , wee abhor it , and deny that ever any of us did so , and challenge him to prove it against us , if he can ; & if he cannot , it is fit he should be known for a slanderer , if he deserve no punishment for it . but he saith , the anabaptists are an illiterate and sottish sect. we answer , some of them know many letters , and if they can do no more , i see not how it can be truly affirmed they are illiterate . yea but it seems in the doctors account they are not so good scholars as he is ▪ i freely confesse it , and i perceive the doctor hath skill in one tongue that will never doe him good , and i desire to be ignorant of it ; but one may wonder that he so much inveyeth against illiterate men , seeing he saith , in p. 200. that god in the first planting of the gospel , made use of illiterat men , that all may know , that he that planteth and he that watereth is nothing ; and further saith , p. 14. i confesse we read of one fumentius , a lay-man , who in his travels , converted many to the christian faith : ( and dr. fulk confesseth in his confutation of the rhemist testament , of a woman that converted a great many of them who lived in the island to which place she was carried captive ) but dr. featley saith , the learnedst men have proved the worthiest instruments ( bravely spoken ) 2 cor. 10. 17 , 18. the summe is , therefore now all illiterate men must for ever hold their peace , at least in england , and in case any travell into any island , where there are some unconverted , if there be no doctors there , illiterate men may see what god will do by them . but the doctor chargeth the anabaptists , p. 10. to be uncertain of their grounds , because sometimes they plead one thing , and sometimes another . answ. no , variety of grounds and reasons against a thing , may arise from the clear discovery of the truth to them and from fulnesse of perswasion in the judgement , as illiterate men conceive . but , saith the doctor , in his epistle , the separation and anabaptists upbraid the state with their merit , in hazarding their lives and estates in these present wars . answ. no such matter , they do but only declare their loyalty to the state , being urged to it by some , who falsly accuse them to be enemies to the state ; and i conceive they accuse them to be enemies , out of a desire that they be lesse friends to it ; and some conceive , the doctor , and such as he is , seek the destruction of the state , in seeking to deprive the state of the help of many ( who are faithfull and loyall to it . ) but , saith he , anabaptisme was condemned long since by the greek and latine churches ; mark how the doctor bears himself upon humane authority ; then it seems you cannot say it is condemned by jesus christ in his word ; but the doctor confesseth , that generall councels have sometimes most grossely mistaken error for truth , and idolatry for true religion , p. 92. then it 's no wonder , if the doctor erre with his greek and latine church : and seeing the doctor affirms that the example of christ and his apostles doth not bind us without a precept , p. 37 , 38. with what reason or conscience doth he urge against us , yea , and against christs command , his greek and latine churches , without a precept ? doth he not set them herein above christ himself ? the papists pretend antiquity , and brag of their universality against the truth . wee know error is ancient , and spreading ; but truth was before error , and baptizing by dipping was before baptizing by sprinkling ; he may name to us as many men as he pleaseth , but hee must tell us where it is so written in the scriptures , so as we may reade it , before we shall believe them , luke 10. 26. but the doctor chargeth us in his book , with many things that we hold : that no malefactor ought to be put to death , that it is lawfull to have more wives then one at once , that a man may put away his wife if shee differ from him in point of religion , that we are to goe naked , and not be ashamed , that we hold it lawfull to slay wicked magistrates , that no christian may goe to law , but right himselfe by violent means , that wicked men have no propriety in their goods , but all things ought to be held in common , that we maintain pretended revelations , that christ took not flesh of the virgin mary , that there is no originall sinne , that men have free will in spirituall actions , that election is for foreseen faith and repentance , that god gives all men sufficient grace to be saved , that a man hath free will of himself to accept or refuse grace , that christ died indifferently alike for all , that a true beleever may fall away from grace totally and finally , and that wee hold libertinisme & familisme , and such like stuffe which we utterly abhorre and detest ; and if god permit , wee shall in the next impression of the confession of our faith , more fully declare jointly what we believe , and therefore i will not answer his exceptions , which he makes at some of the articles , but leave it to them to answer for themselves , which will be ere long , if god permit ; but sure i am , all this poyson ( which he chargeth upon us ) is drawn out of the impure fountaine of divers heretikes , in which he laboureth to drown us in ; and i wonder how his conscience would permit him to heave so many untruths into the presse : but ( as christ saith , iohn 16. 2. and ) he was encouraged by sleiden , gabriel , abres , alstedius , and others , oh me thinkes i heare the presse grone , if not sweat under the burden of so many heavie charges ; and sure his grones will be much greater when god opens his eyes , and shews him what he hath done , which the lord in mercy doe , if it be his will . i hope i may say as christ did , father forgive him , for he knowes not what he hath done , ( matth. 5. 44. ●1 ▪ 12. ) sect. iv. whererin appeares in the doctors disputation , his subtilty and pride . after he had condemned the point in question for an error , the doctor saith , i could wish you had brought scholars with you , who know how to dispute , which i perceive you cannot do . answ. observe , how before he disputes , hee vilifies the point in question , and those that maintain it . but saith the doctor , there are but two wayes of disputing : first , by authority : secondly by reason . first , by authority , if you will dispute in divinity , you must be able to produce the scriptures in the originall language . answ. but why may you not as well say none can dispute in divinity unlesse they can produce the same copy of the scriptures which the apostles wrote , and seeing you cannot do that , you are not fit to dispute your self : for , saith hee , in translations there may be , and are errors , for no translation is are simply authenticall , and the undoubted word of god . we may say the same of your hebrew and greek copies , seeing you cannot produce the first copy , how know you but your copies are written and printed false ? see pag. 109. can no writer , if he pleaseth , write contrary to his copy ? as for printing , i may say the same , printing is not above 250. yeers standing . dr. fulk in confutation of the rhemist testament justifieth the english translation of the bible , and you have the same reason to doubt of the writing or printing of your copy as wee of our translation ; and if you may depend upon the writer or printer of your copies , why may not we do the same of our translators , they doing it upon oath ? but truth must not be taken by tradition ; and if the knowledge of hebrew , greek , &c. be sufficient to teach them the minde of the spirit of god , then all that know the tongues must of necessity know the minde of god in the scriptures , and if so , apollo being a learned man , and saw the first copy of the bible , should not need to learn of aquila a tradeseman ( one of the laity ) and priscilla his wife , the word of god more perfectly as he did , acts 18. 26. and what is the reason you agree not among your selves about the minde of the spirit of god in his word ? so that some of you in your expositions , differ as much as light and darknesse ; and if our translation be true , then we may know the meaning thereof as well as you ; and if it be not true , tell mee , what is that preaching worth which is proved by a false translation ? and if we must believe contrary to our translation , because you that know the originall say so ; ( what is this but an implicit faith , & so human ? ) and seeing you so differ among your selves about the meaning of the spirit of god in them , tel me how i shal know , which of you i am to believe : also some who know the originall , affirm some one word will bear 7 or 10 divers significations , how do you know which of them is intended by god , unlesse hee reveale it to you ? and if he please , hee can reveale it to illiterate men ; god hath hid that from the wise , which he hath revealed unto babes ; god saith , the naturall man cannot perceive the things that be of god ( though he be learned ) surely no man can know the things of god , but he to whom the spirit will reveale them unto . the word , saith hee , revealeth to us the deep things of god by his spirit , 1 cor. 2. 10. he doth not say by greek and hebrew , &c. but it will be objected , cannot learned men understand the scriptures as well as illiterate asses , as the doctor calls tradesmen ? i answer , yes , both alike , not at all of themselves . but are there other means and helps to the understanding the scriptures without greek and hebrew ? yes , only the self-evidencing light of the spirit of god , which first inspired the pen-men of scriptures , is in the hearts of the saints , the only interpreter of the scriptures . secondly , the knowledge of the body of divinity , or the analogie of the faith , to which the scripture is to be referred for its right interpretation . thirdly , the law of god written in the hearts of the lords , which savoureth the truth , and disrelisheth errorr . fourthly , help to the understanding the scriptures , is the manifold experiences of varieties of temptations , and the experiences of the work of grace in the soul . lastly , to compare scriptures that are dark with scriptures of the same nature that are more plain , and so to let the scriptures expound themselves . i conclude this , all men are pur-blind , yea dead , till god gives life , and opens mens eyes . and although humane learning is necessary for translating the scriptures , &c. yet many idolize it , as the children of israel did their golden calf ; the issue of the conference , as he saith , p. 18. was , that they were not able to withstand the truth ; it seems he was , hee saith , the knights and ladies thanked him , but he cannot say he did deserve it : and he saith , the anabaptists went away discontented and grieved . answ. it seems they were very sorrowfull , to see his great blindnesse and hardnesse of heart ; and he saith none of them ever after that troubled him any more ; it seems they could do him no good , and so they resolved to leave him to god , till he shall please to open his eyes , luke 11. 25 , 26. sect. 5. that doctor featley justifieth dipping in rivers to be a lawfull manner of baptizing ; in which he justifieth the practice of the anabaptists in their manner of baptizing . doctor featley in p. 33. 71. 223. 224. saith , whatsoever is alledged for dipping , we approve of , i grant that christ and the eunuch were baptized in the river , matth. 3. 16. acts 8. 38. john 3. 23. and the church of england approves of dipping , and that such baptizing of men hath been , and is , and may lawfully be used ; yea , and is fit to be used in warm seasons , and the word baptizo sometimes signifies to dip . answ. now you justifie our practice ( for we doe no more ) in warm seasons : and as for those that chuse cold seasons to be baptized in , doe they not suffer sufficiently for that falt ? i beleeve you would judge so if the case were yours , though your epistle declares the contrary , and pag. 70. i conceive he should have declared to us when the times are , the word signifieth dipping , or what scriptures they be that will beare that signification . also , it is worth the observing , that baptizing of beleevers in rivere , by dipping , is so clearly expressed in the scriptures , that the enemies to it are forced to confesse it ; and may not one wonder how hee durst condemne any for doing of that which he confesses the scriptures approve of ? but i leave him to consider rom. 14. 22. sect. 6. some reasons alledged against infants being baptized . we contend for the perfection of the last will & testament ( of our lord & saviour jesus christ ) that it is as perfect to direct in the administrations of the ordinances therof , as the old testament was to direct in the administrations of the ordinances therof , in wch was expressed , first , who was to administer circumcision , gen. 17. 9 , 11. & 21. 4. secondly , who should be circumcised , every male child , born in the house , or bought with mony , gen. 17. 10. 12. 13. thirdly , the time when , he that is eight dayes old shall bee circumcised , &c. gen. 17. 12. fourthly , the place of circumcision ; ye shall circumcise the flesh of your fore-skins , gen. 17. 11. fifthly , the manner , which was to bee cut . but if infants are to be baptized , because they are the subjects of baptisme , then if the new testament doe not expresly command infants to be baptized , the time when they are to be baptized , and by whom they are to be baptized , and the manner how they are to be baptized ; but if the new testament expresseth any of these things , with the manner of sprinkling , & the place where they are to bee sprinkled , we desire they would shew it us , wch they confesse they cannot , it followes by their doctrine , the new testament gives us not as expresse direction in the administration of the ordinances thereof , as the old testament did for the ordinances thereof ; and so the new testament to come short of the old . but the new testament expresly commands who shall baptize , matth. 28. 19. goe yee , teach and baptize . secondly , the persons who are to be baptized , such as repent and beleeve , and confesse their sinnes , and professe their faith , both male and female : make disciples baptizing them , matth. 28. 19. when they beleeved they were baptized both men and women , acts 8. 12 , 13. if thou beleevest with all thy heart , thou mayst be baptized , acts 8. 36 , 37 , 38. repent and be baptized , acts 2. 38. and they that gladly received the word , were baptized , vers. 41. and they were baptized in jordan , confessing their sinnes , matth. 3. 6. mark 1. 4. 5. such as have received the holy spirit , are so to be baptized , acts 10. 44 , 47 , 48. thirdly , the time when they are to be baptized , when they declare their faith , acts 8. 37. 38. they are not to tarry , but to bee baptized as soon as possibly they can , as acts 22. 16. fourthly , the element , water . fifthly , and the manner how they are to be baptized , they were to be dipped in the name of the three persons , matth. 28. 19. they were dipped in jordan , matth. 3. 6. jesus being baptized , went straightway out of the water , matth. 3. 16. john was dipping ( that is , baptizing ) in aenon , john 3. 23. and they went both down into the water and baptized him , acts 8. 38. so you see it is plainly set downe what persons are to be baptized , who are to baptize them , when they were to be baptized , and the manner how they were to be baptized : therefore the new testament is as cleare as the old , and christ as faithfull as moses to appoint how every thing should be done ; and also that such persons that are so qualified as aforesaid , have right to baptisme , and none but they , because god excludes all from his holy covenant , and to have any right in the outward dispensations thereof , but onely such as beleeve , rom. 11. 20. heb. 3. 18. 19. & 4. 1 , 2 , 3. & 11. 5. 6. rom. 9. 7 , 8. gal. 3. 22 , 26 , 29. god denies fellowship and communion with them that doe not beleeve , john 3. 5 , 6 , 36. heb. 11. 6. rom. 8. 9. onely such as he hath elected in christ , and so appeare by some fruit and effect of the same , as appeares , rom. 8. 29. 30. rom. 11. 7. ephes. 1. 4 , 5 , 6. 2 thess. 2. 13 , 14. 1 pet. 1. 2. acts 2. 47. acts 13. 48. those that god owns for his , are purchased by his blood , who are called , chosen and faithful , 1 pet. 2. 5. 9. jam. 4. 23. ephes. 2. 19 , 20 , 21 , 22. & 4. 16. 1 cor. 12 , 12 , 13. ephes. 5. 25 , 26 , 27. acts 20. 28. rev. 17. 14. and because infants have not repentance from dead workes , and faith towards god , which precedes baptisme , as appeares heb. 6. 1 , 2. acts 8. 36. 37. acts 2. 38. so also rising with christ is an act required of all that are baptized , which act infants cannot performe , col. 2. 12. therefore they are not fit subjects of baptisme ; also infants are not to be accounted such as beleeve , as appeares rom. 10. 14. if any say , we cannot require faith and repentance of infants ; i answer , no more can we require them to be baptized . baptisme presupposeth it , being an ordinance to confirme grace , & none can rightly presuppose grace without some appearing ground , seeing faith & obedience to christ , is not naturall : but baptisme is forced upon infants against their wills , contrary to zeph. 3. 9. object . but infants may have grace . answ. what doth not appear , is secret , and secret things belong to god , deut. 29. 29. what infants may have , is one thing , and what they can be proved to have , is another : wee pronounce nothing of infants , but leave them to the lord . object . baptisme succeeds circumcision , therefore as infants were circumcised then , so are infants to be baptized now . answ. circumcision of the heart succeeds in the place of circumcision in the flesh , as appeares , rom. 2. 29. circumcision made without hands , commeth in place of circumcision made with hands , as col. 2. 11. with ephes. 2. 11. as circumcision of the flesh was an earnest of the inheritance of the land of canaan to the israelites , the holy spirit of promise is the spirituall seale and earnest of our inheritance , ephes. 1. 13 , 14. and if baptisme did succeed circumcision , yet the subject of the new testament doth not succeed the old : for no rejected esau or ismaelite , are to be admitted either to union or communion with the church of christ under the new testament : the two testaments are as two wills , containing legacies bequeathed to such whose names are expresly set down in the same , as rev. 21. 27. in the old testament , as the first will , a male of 8 dayes old , or a proselyte , exod. 12. 48 , 49. gen. 17. 10. — 14. 23. 25. john 8. phil. 3. 4. 5. so in the new testament , as the last will of christ , the legacies therein contained are given to such as beleeve , & none else , gal. 3. 14 , 23 , 29. rom. 8. 17. & 14. 11 , 12. gal. 3. 6. 7. these are begotten again by the word , born of the spirit , the children of god , the true heirs of the kingdom of christ , wth the privileges therof , as jam. 1. 18. 1 pet. 2. 23. john 1. 12. 13. 1 jo●. 3. 9. 10. those that beleeve are the seed of the righteous , & of the promise , esay 43. 5. with rev. 12. 17. gal. 4. 26. 31. infants not being such , are not to be baptized . the new testament succeeded the old , therfore must we observe the same order they did , all the whole houshold of every family among the israelites in egypt , as well children as others , were to eat the passover , exod. 12. 3. 4. and the lords supper succeeded that , then it followes children and all must eat the supper : besides , god did never take in the body of the gentiles to be his church , as hee did the jewes ; ergo , the argument is not the same . the jewes church stood not by faith and circumcision of heart ( as the church of the gospel doth ) but stood meerely upon nature and circumcision of the flesh . object . but baptisme is as large as circumcision , ergo infants . answ. baptisme is both to male and female , therefore larger : circumcision was only to males . baptisme is both to jew & gentile , and so is the covenant , yet infants are not to be baptized . obj. but believers children are holy , 1 cor. 7. 14. therefore are to be baptized . ans. this doctrine takes away the being of actuall sin , else they could not be holy ; this is contrary to psal. 51. 5. the unbelieving wife is termed holy in the same place , therefore shee must also be baptized as well as the child : so the unbelieving jewes were termed holy , when they were broken off , rom. 11. 16. what is it to be holy ? it may be , you will say , to be under the covenant . i demand , when do infants come under the covenant ? when they are conceived ? or when they are born ? or when their parents are converted ? if it bee answered , that infants begotten of believing parents , come under the covenant in their conception , psal. 51. 5. and infants borne come under the covenant when their parents are regenerate ; then it appeareth , that the covenant is conveyed to their children by generation , and by filiall relation ; but that which is a means to bring an infant under the covenant , is a means to bring them under justification and sanctification , then it must follow , that wee must account all the children of ( believing parents ) naturall birth , to be under justification and under sanctification , because they are holy , that is , as they say , under the covenant : but prove by scripture that this holinesse signifieth true sanctification , or to be under the covenant . the holinesse of the child here , is meant lawfully begotten , which is call'd holy or godly , mal. 2. 14 , 15. the sanctity or holinesse of the wife , is meant lawfull marriage , contrary to ezra 10. 2 , 3. as 1 thes. 4. 3 , 4. there is other kinds of holinesse ; one of things dedicated to holy uses , as 1 sam. 21. 5. so there is a sanctification by the spirit , which is called holinesse , heb. 12. 14. so there is a holinesse being free from sin ; and thus was christ in the virgins womb , this is called holy , luke 1. 35. there is a holiness of actions , when they are outwardly according to the word that makes an outward holinesse , &c. let them prove which of these holinesses is meant by this scripture . obj. but children are in the covenant , and so are to have the seale of the covenant . we demand what covenant it is they intend , if to the old covenant , to the old covenant seals we send them ; if they say they be in the new covenant , i deny it : for abraham , isaac and jacob were believers , as the scriptures affirm , yet of their children god testifieth , that but a remnant of them shall be saved : rom. 9. 27. considered with rom. 9. 13. gen. 17. 19 , 20. now if the new covenant be as jeremy reports , jer. 31. 32 , 33 , 34. and as is expressed , heb. 8. 8. & 10. 15 , 16 , 17. then god , who keeps covenant , must ( needs be true in what he promiseth ) writes his lawes in the hearts of all believers children , they being within the covenant , and their children must also be saved , which yet the scripture denies : rom. 9. 27. isa. 1. 9. rom. 9. 29. but it 's believing the doctrine of the gospel proves persons to be in the covenant , the promises are all confirmed in christ ; no interest in christ , no interest in the covenant and promises thereof , 2 cor. 1. 20. rom. 10. 4. 1 joh. 5. 11 , 12. rom. 8. 9. we are in christ ( visibly ) first by faith , and then in the covenant and priviledges thereof , gal. 3. 29. and they that were born in the covenant are never out of it ; if the parents faith instates his childe into the priviledges of his faith , salvation being one priviledge , it must needs partake of that also . men talk of a priviledge , o it 's a priviledge ! but what priviledge is it for an infant to have a name to live , and yet to be never the more alive for it , and to be dead for for all that any one knowes , they are the children of abraham , who walke in the steps of abraham , see acts 3. 25. & 13. 26. 33. joh. 8. 37 , 39. rom. 9. 7 , 8. and concerning genesis 17. 7. i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed ; to expound and apply this , and the like places , to the naturall posterity of believers , such an exposition of it is an heresie , as we conceive , and strikes at many expresse texts of scripture ; to name some : 1. if it be so , that by being born of a believer , the word ( of god which is truth it self ) saith they are born in the covenant of grace and life , then shall all such children be saved , or else god is unfaithfull , because the covenant of grace is a covenant of life , in and by jesus christ , which is absolute and unconditionall , therefore none can misse of glory , if god be faithfull ; but it is impossible for god to lie , ergo , they shall all be saved , or they were never in this covenant ; this doctrine makes void the stability of gods covenant of grace it self : thus , if the covenant of grace be absolute and stable , then all within the same must be saved , but all within the said covenant were not saved , ergo , the covenant of grace is not absolute and stable . the major is confessed , that a believers seed is in the covenant of grace without exception ; the minor is proved from ishmael and esau , and the rejected jews , all which were the seed of believers , and yet not all saved . 2. it 's a ground of falling from grace ; thus all that god took into his covenant of grace , were in an estate of grace ; but all that god took into his covenant of grace did not there continue , ergo , 3. it 's a ground of universall redemption ; this doctrine makes the death of christ equall as well to such as perish , as to such as are saved , all that are in the covenant of grace christ died for , but all that were in the covenant of grace were not saved , ergo , christ died for such as are not saved . 4. this doctrine offers to make god the authour of mans believing a lie , in enjoyning him to believe the salvation of such as hee knowes , and reveals the contrary , rom. 9. 27. god requires no man to believe an untruth ; but for a believer to believe that all his seed is in the covenant of grace , is to believe an untruth , ergo , god requires no such thing . but here some are constrained to confesse they are not in the covenant of grace and salvation ; for all that are in this covenant shall be saved . see , can you find another covenant whereof baptisme and the supper are the seals of it ? and seeing they cannot prove them to have by their naturall birth right in the covenant of life by cheist , they cannot prove they have any right to the seals of it . 5. if by their naturall birth they be borne in the covenant of grace , then are they not by nature the children of wrath as well as others who are born of unbeleevers , which is against ephes. 2. 3. now can one be under the covenant , and under grace , and under wrath at one and the same time ? 6. then there is two ways of entring into the covenant of grace , one by naturall birth , another by faith . 7. that there is two wayes to enter into the church of god , one by a naturall birth , and another to another by the second birth , without which none is to enter into the kingdom of god : this latter enters by profession of faith & repentance . 8. that sa of old , so now there is some fleshly privilege as by which we become members of the church now , viz. by being borne of a believer ; therefore all old things are not done away , and all become new , which is contrary to divers scriptures : as they which are the children of the flesh , these are not the children of god , but the children of the promise are counted ( by god ) for the seed rom. 9. 7 , 8. with gal. 3. 9. 9. if by fleshly birth some have right to the ordinances , &c. then we may know some after the flesh , that is , in a fleshly consideration , but that is contrary to 2 cor. 5. 16. phil. 3. 45. 10. this abuseth the word of god , by making every believer to come in the place of abraham , and so assuming to each believer to be the father of the faithfull ; yea , the woman to have this priviledge , which never any believer had besides abraham : now they say , if one of them be a believer , the woman and not the man , yet this promise they wil apply to her seed , gal. 3. 29. not considering that the parents themselves , though believers come not in the place of abraham , but in the place of his seed , it 's an high contempt of jesus christ , as he is the husband of his church , to force upon him a natural wife ( himself being spiritual ) to found the church upon naturall birth . 11. it tends to overthrow this doctrine , that the matter of the church of christ to be saints , living stones , contrary to 1 pet. 2. 5. 9. ephes. 2. 19. 20. 21. 22. & 46. 1 cor. 12. 12 , 13 , 25 , 26 , 27. eph. 5. 25. 26. 27. john 4. 23. acts 20. 28. p●… 17. 14. the naturall posterity of beleevers are not so much as in appearance such . 12. this inforceth such matter upon the church , as tends to the destruction of the form of it , and bring the saints in bondage : for to found the church of christ upon naturall birth , seeing to one born in the spirit , there appears to be twenty born in the flesh : what then the major voice is like in a small time to be the worst , and so oppresse those who are borne the second time , it 's apparent it 's the next way to make the church become carnall , and tends to a nationall church . and how shall the lesser voyce in the church cast out the greater , if they sin ? 13. it tends to make gods holy ordinance a lying signe , to confirm that which visibly is not , secret things belong to god , and revealed things to us , deut. 29. 29. and seeing such infants appeare not to have any right in the covenant , they are not to have the seal of the covenant , it being against the light of nature to set a seal to a blank . and that any should have a visible right to the seals , &c. and yet not godly , is strange doctrine . 14. it tends to prove either , that infants may eat the lords supper ( it being in the same nature , end and use for kind : ) or else that the church may withhold from the members the priviledges & ordinances of the same , this is to acknowledge them fit for union , who are not fit for comunion wth the church ; and seeing it puts an infant into a state of grace and remission of sinnes before calling , contrary to 2 tim. 1. 9. acts 26. 28. rom. 8. 30. heb. 9. 15. and it constitutes them visible members of christs body before calling , contrary to 1 pet. 2. 9. rom. 6. 7. 1 cor. 1. 2. it upholds a nationall church , as circumcision did of old , contrary to rev. 1. 20. and it maintains infants of beleevers to be born in a covenant of grace , and to have a right to a promise of life in christ jesus , contrary to rom. 9. 9. 7. 8. gal. 3. 9. 26. 28. 29. rom. 9. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. psal. 51. 5. john 3. 6. eph. 2. 3. and it maintains that grace is intaild to generation , and not regeneration , contrary to john 3. 5. 6. and it holdeth that beleeving gentiles naturall seed have a right to the promise of life before faith is received , contrary to gal. 3. 21. john 1. 12. 13. and that infants of beleevers may bee saved by their parents faith , contrary to heb. 2. 4. gal. 3. 11. and crosseth christs commission first to sprinkle them , and after to teach them , contrary to matth 28. 19. mark 16. 15. and declareth that beleevers infants are fit subjects of baptisme before faith and repentance is manifested , contrary to acts 2. 38. & 8. 36. 37. and crosseth the practice of the apostolicall churches acts 2. 41 , they that gladly received the word , were dipped , acts 8. 12. 36 , 37 , 38. acts 10. 47 , 48 , 16. 15. 33. therfore we cannot conceive that this their exposition is right of the 17. of genesis . to conclude , many of our opposites confesse , there is no expresse command or example to baptize infants , and that infants sprinkled by one of the priests , is sufficient baptisme ; and yet they cannot tell us where wee may find the place of scripture where we may read it , that it is so as they say : but if any desire further satisfaction , i referre them to john spilsbery's book of baptisme , and other books of the same subject . a question proposed to consideration , that if it be an error to be baptized in the river , whether the punishment some would inflict upon them , and some have suffered for it , be not too great . suppose infants sprinkling to be sufficient dipping , and some were not so perswaded , because they cannot find the place in the scripture where they may read it ( that it is sufficient ) as luke 10. 26. is this so great an evill , that for this a man shall be more hated , and suffer more from some men , then the basest livers where they dwell ; because they went into the river to be ( ducked ) dipt , and that but once more then they needed ? is this so heynous an offence as to turne a beleever into an heretick , and sufficient to deprive them of all hope of salvation , and of breathing in the aire of their native countrey ? shall this one act of theirs turn a tender heart into hardnesse , and be sufficient to accuse them of all errors and blasphemies , and turn neer kindred , and entire loving friends to bee bitter enemies , and force an unwilling separation of husband and wife , who are but one in affection and relation ; and the little ones , who know not the right hand from the left , shall they also suffer hunger , cold and nakednesse , and their posterity beg their bread , and if it be possible , bee more miserable then themselves , because their progenitors were stripped of all , and could by no meanes obtain so much favour as to enjoy the fruit of their labours which they sweat for ; but in stead thereof have been confined where they might have a dying life , and after that suffer death , pag. 70. and all this for so small a fault , if any at all , matth. 19. 29. but they should consider rom. 14. 23. what is not of faith is sinne , and that which hath no precept or example , cannot bee done in faith . sect. 7. doctor featley his three sorts of anabaptists , and what they maintain . doctor featley saith , alstedius maketh 14 sorts of anabaptists , yet there are but 3. to whom the name properly appertaineth , p. 24. ans. then you have done very improperly and unworthily , & scarce honestly , to stretch your conscience to make the world beleeve there are 14. sorts by 15. pictures in the title of your book : if this be equall dealing , let all that behold it judge , mat. 7. 15. 16. d. feat . the first sort broached their doctrine about the yeare 250. which was that all those who had been baptized by novatus , or any hereticke , ought to be baptized by the orthodox pastor of the church : and cyprian , a famous bishop affirmed the same , that baptisme of hereticks was invalid , and null , and erasmus would not condemne these , pag. 24. 25. ans. and dr. fealey doth not greatly condemn these . see ibid. d. feat . the 2d . sort broched theiss about the yeare 38● ▪ that none were rightly baptized , but those that held with donatus : and that all others who had received baptisme of the catholicke church , ought to be rebaptized . ans. i know not whom they and you call the catholick church , and therefore can say the lesse unto it : and it is a question whether d. featley hold any any are rightly baptized , unlesse it bee by such as have received holy orders : and if he doe , he must be reckoned for an anabaptist of the 2d sort : for this is the same in substance . d. feat . the third and last sort broached theirs 15●5 . which was this , that baptisme ought to be administred to none , but ●uch as can give account of their faith , and such as have been baptized in their infancy , they ought to be baptized when they come to yeares of discretion , p. 25. answ . and this last sort the doctor is not able to alledge so much as one place of scripture that speakes one word against them , therefore he speaks many . what doctor featleys mysticall frontispice may more properly declare . upon consideration of the frontispice of the doctors book ; there is the picture of a serpent , which is very remarkable , and yet he hath said nothing in his book to unfold the mysterie thereof : also considering he contradicts the truth of the substance of his pictures , which is , as he declares , to signifie 14. sorts of anabaptists , yet sayes in p. 24. there is but three sorts in all , so according to his own confession , his explanation thereof cannot be true , nor hang together , i shall therefore propose to your consideration , what i conceive they may more properly hold forth unto us : the great headed serpent is the old serpent , which is the devill , neer to his mouth is written in great letters , the name anabaptist , it signifies to us , that the name anabaptist came first from the devill , and that he will own whatsoever is written against them ; this name is written , as it were , in a white curtain , which the serpent stretches wide open : the meaning is , that what is held out by any against the anabaptists for submitting to christ , is from the devil ; and that the devill would have all to take notice what is written against them : the spuing that proceeds out of his mouth , is mystically , all his abominable lies and devillish errors , which is the filth of his stomach , which he labours to cast upon the anabaptists , to make them odious , which declares the devill hath much malice against them ; and the mouth of the serpent is wide open , which shewes he never ceaseth raging and accnsing them , and his tail is sharp , and it points toward the anabaptist , it shewes his willingness to give them a deadly wound with it , but his tail is short of them , that is , they are safe from his hurting them , being out of his reach ; and the anabaptist is set in the midst , and is inclosed close in the east , west , north , south , with men & the devil , it declares that they are beset with enemies in all the four quarters of the earth , and the men have severall names , this signifies severall religions and opinions of severall persons , yet they all are as one joyned together to oppose the truth and people of god , especially against the anabaptist ; and on the top on the right side of the serpent , he seems to be very still , his picture declares , that either hee hath wearied himself against the people of god , and so is glad to be quiet , or else he is one that observes the event of things , and perceiving no good can come of it , he chooseth rather to do nothing then to medle with them ; the second , by the posture he seems to be in , is preaching , he holds up his hand , and from it falls something like drops of water , he seems to preach that sprinkling is sufficient for baptisme , but he hath no pulpit , it 's like he hath had two pulpits , and both justly taken from him for his malignancy to the state . the third is not ashamed of his name , and he is a separatist . surely , i believe he is an honest man , i wonder what he doth here , hee means honestly , and intends to do good , it seems he is in a pulpit ; it 's like he is preaching against the anabaptist . how ! is 't possible ? if it be so , i fear hee hath not well studied the point he hath spoken against them , and the devill hath tempted him to preach against the anabaptist openly ; it may be also , that he might not be esteemed an heretike , and out of a hope of doing good , hath yeelded , but his face seems to be turnd somthing backward , which holds forth , hee wil not be able to stay there long ; but why should the devill desire honest men to preach against them ? ans. because he knowes one word from an honest man , will more prevail with some , then many from a loose fellow . the 4th holds up both his hands ; surely he stands amazed , wondring at the silliness of such as will in cold weather go into a river to be ducked or dipt . the 5th he stands as one that holds something against his mouth ; he represents them that will neither speak for them nor against them ; he is indifferent , yet one of the same company . the 6th staggers , he will fall off from them ere long . the 7th stretches out his hands both wayes , that is , he cars not , let all go which way they will . the 8th appeares naked , the meaning is , he is so foolish in defending his practice , as all that hears him sees the folly of the man , and what he contends for , or he conceives he is innocent , and no persecutor . the 9th is compassed round with a serpent , signifying eternity ; this represents all those whom god in his just judgement hath given up to their wickedness , and shall to eternity perish in it . the 10th hath the sun touching him ; this shewes the light is come , now he sees that he never saw , he points to the light , it sheweth he is affected with it , and that declares he useth means that others may see it also , and he hath a key in his hand , that is , now god hath inlightned his mind , he is able to open such places of scripture which others cannot : also he seems to represent paul , who being a persecutor , god hath mercy on him , and with a light from heaven converts him . the 11th picture is a chariot with two in it , drawn swiftly with horses , this signifies they make haste , as if they were coming from some remote part of the kingdom to london , to do some of the people of god a mischief , and the chariot seems to be all on fire ; this declares their great zeal and malice , which fire came from the devill ; and there being two of them , declare they are for witnesses , sure it 's a conspiracie against them . the 12th hath a serpent at his mouth , which sheweth the neer familiarity they have with the devill , that are enemies to the people of god , and that they are counselled by the devill what mischief they shall do , and how they shall effect it . the 13th hath a pen , and he is a writing ; this holds forth , that the devill hath alwayes one or other to write against the truth , and them that professe it . the 14th is pictured with two , like women imbracing them , that is , hee is so taken up about his wenches , that he is not at leasure now to meddle with them . the 15th and last , seems to be out of his wits , hee hath persecuted the people of god so long , that he is distracted , or so terrified in his conscience , that he stands in water ready to drown himself . in the middle of all is a river , named jordan , this declareth that much water is required to baptise in , a few drops being not sufficient ; the men in it , seem to be the anabaptists , so called , a man and a woman are about to be baptized in the presence of all the aforesaid enemies ; this holds forth their loyalty , courage and constancy , of both men and women , that they are not afraid nor ashamed to own jesus christ & practice his truth in the presence of the devill and his instruments . and they are almost naked : this was done to make them odious to the world , by an enemy of theirs , mystically they have forsaken all fathers , mothers , friends , land , to submit to the wayes of jesus christ . thus they have denied themselves to be christs disciples , and that their enemies have stripped them of all , and that none may expect outward riches nor glory , in submitting to the wayes of christ : and thus being stripped of all outward comforts , now they seem to a carnall eye most miserable . one puts anothers head under water so baptizing him : this to a learn'd doctor ( that can see but the out-side of things ) seemes , yea , esteemes it a meere ducking , that deserves drowning : there is no money nor figures set down neere the dipper , it seems they are so silly , that they doe not compound what they shall have for their labour . and under the men is written proselytes , that is , they are converted to the faith of christ . and under the women is written , virgins of sion : virgins ▪ because they are chast to god and man ; and they are named virgins of sion , that is , they belong to the church of christ by the confession of their adversaries . finis . a vindication of that part of spira's despair revived which is challenged by the anabaptists, and shamefully callumniated by john wells, a baptist preacher : wherein also some things are handled relating to infant baptism and dipping in baptism : particularly it is evinced that dipping is not essential to the sacrament of baptism / by thomas james, author of spira's despair revived. james, thomas. 1695 approx. 99 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a46634 wing j437 estc r32366 12648054 ocm 12648054 65213 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a46634) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 65213) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1528:24) a vindication of that part of spira's despair revived which is challenged by the anabaptists, and shamefully callumniated by john wells, a baptist preacher : wherein also some things are handled relating to infant baptism and dipping in baptism : particularly it is evinced that dipping is not essential to the sacrament of baptism / by thomas james, author of spira's despair revived. james, thomas. james, thomas. spira's despair revived. [6], 32 p. printed for john lawrence ..., london : 1695. imperfect: pages cropped with some loss of print. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library,new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anabaptists -england -controversial literature. infant baptism. 2005-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-11 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-09 taryn hakala sampled and proofread 2006-09 taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a vindication of that part of spira's despair revived which is challenged by the anabaptists and shamefully callumniated by john wells , a baptist preacher . wherein also some things are handled relating to infant baptism , and dipping in baptism , particularly it is evinced , that dipping is not essential to the sacrament of baptism . by thomas james , author of spira's despair revived london : printed for john lawrence , at the angel in the poultrey , 1695. to those inhabitants of ashford and the adjacent parishes , who attend upon my ministry . beloved christians ; the dedication of these few sheets of my vindicatio● is due to you ; and it would be a crime to prefix any ●ther name or names : you are concerned with me in th● matters here spoken to ; and your concern is little le●● than that of my own ; yea upon some accounts it is evident●● greater : you have also some knowledge of these things ; yea som● of you do know the truth of what i write , to your exceedin● great grief and sorrow . this neighbourhood hath of a long tim● been the seat of many anabaptists ; and the stirs they have mad● have not been small ; witness that disputation held in the paris● church july 27. 1649. between fisher and several ministers , b●fore some thousands of hearers ( about three thousand , as th● printed relation telleth us it was guessed ) and a late one b●tween them and my predecessour ; and they have not come short 〈◊〉 my time , having urged me to the same , though i have answere● them only with contempt of their challenge . the reflection i made touching their troubling weak and unst●ble souls , and their practices of this kind , are matters well know● to many of you : every day discovers how restless they are 〈◊〉 turn some or other of you away from the faith you profess , an● to make you renounce your first baptism . vpon these account 〈◊〉 judge it a part of my ministry , which i have received in th● lord , to watch over you , and to preserve you from those seducer● and if i should not take all occasions to warn , to exhort , and i●struct you , i am afraid i should not fulfil the same . beware of ●hem therefore , and be not terrified and dismay'd at their bold and desperate speeches , cavilling at , and condemning infant-bap●ism as a new doctrine , a scriptureless thing , as antichristian ; which yet was practised many hundred of years before the name of anabaptists , or baptists ( being taken for a society of people opposing infant baptism ) was ever known in the world , and long before the man of sin was ever revealed . but why should ●ou be afraid to have your children baptized , when christ shewed his love to those lambs , by taking them in his arms and blessing them ; and the holy ghost makes no difference be●ween them and the oldest disciples , calling them holy , and saying , the promises equally belong to them ; and god to where in all his word forbids you to dedicate them in baptism , or refuseth them ? let them shew you that scripture , if they can , which forbids children to be baptized . what , hath god less love for your children than for those of his old people the jews ? is his mercy clean gone from our ●hildren ? is he not the god of the christians also ? yes ve●ily the same god in covenant ; for he is a god keeping cove●ant and mercy with his people ; whose people we are if we be●ieve on jesus christ his son ; and we are children of abra●am , to whom circumcision was given as a seal of the covenant ●od made with him and his seed ; to which baptism now answers ; christ changing the two old sacraments , circumcision and the passo●er , into baptism and the lord's supper , the subjects of them ●ho were to receive spiritual benefit and priviledge thereby ●eing still the same . many things i know they have written to ●isprove this ; but i seriously profess , that their distinctions and ●ub distinctions about circumcision being a seal to abraham , and ●ot to his seed ; the two covenants god made with him , & c. ●●re so handled by them in some of their books scattered among us , ●hat i can hardly understand them , and wonder how they could render ●●ich plain matters so intricate . but until they can shew you ●ow god makes a difference between children under the law and the gospel , taking theirs in , and leaving ours out , why should yo● keep your children back from the priviledge of so blessed a sacrament , or seek a new baptism for your selves ? as for the point of dipping , can you , dare you lay the stress of the efficacy of a sacrament wholly upon the quantity of water , as though the application of more , or in another way than sprinkling or pouring● could profit you so exceedingly ? or , must you needs be adult , and profess yo● faith , as though the vertue of the sacrament did wholly consist in what you do , and nothing in the grace of god 〈◊〉 cannot god bless his own ordinance to infants ? beware , i be●seech you , least you should provoke god , by limiting him after thi● manner , and scandalize your brethren , and all the reformed churches of christ , even the purest of them ( as that of the wa●denses , now commonly called vaudois , who were never tainte● with any corruption of antichrist , but certainly the most pur● and apostolical in the world ) who baptize infants , and generall● apply the element of baptism some other way than by dipping as by pouring it on , sprinkling , &c. but , i pray , what do yo● see in these men that you should think the word of god came only to them ? what power and demonstration of the spirit is ther● in their preaching ? what holiness and exemplariness in the●● lives more than others , to convince you that they are the peop●● of god above others ? i do not go about to set you against their persons , or societies , and therefore say nothing that may tend to the●● reproach , but i am shewing you how vain it is to believe eve●● word they say , to prevent your being insnared by their confident boasting of things they are never able to prove . let me speak 〈◊〉 some of you in the words of the apostle ; be no more childre● tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrin● by the● slight of men , and cunning craftiness , whereby the he in wait to deceive : and i do earnestly exhort you all , to a●tend to that gospel precept , if it be possible , as much as ●●th 〈◊〉 you , live peaceably with all men ; live peaceably even wi●● these men ; as they are neighbours live in love ; let not the● questions and strivings about matters of this or any other natu●● imbitter your spirits , and provoke you to speak unadvisedly , much less to be guilty of any misbehaviour in your actions ; rather pity them , and pray for them : they are their own enemies-many ways , especially their childrens , whom they debarr of many blessed priviledges ; therefore pray for them , and be at peace with them : the strange divisions of the land of our nativity is a sorrowful consideration to all that fear god , and are by no means unnecessarily to be widened : i could upon this account be content most gladly to be silent ; but my own defence , and your security , will excuse my vndertaking : but truly i had rather appear among you in the pulpit than in print ; and had rather speak five words to edification than ten thousand in a way of endless controversie . as for you , my brethren , believe the promises , observe the institutions , and obey the words and commandments of our lord jesus christ , and keep your selves pure , that none may be able to speak evil of you , or to reproach your good conversation ; this will give you peace , and end in your everlasting happiness . for this i make my prayers to god for you ; as also that he would stablish , strengthen , settle you ; hoping to approve my self a faithful minister of christ unto you in all things , desiring and endeavouring your eternal salvation , as i am your friend and servant in the work of the ministry , thomas james . from my study , june 25 , 1695. a vindication , &c. on may 21. i received a letter with a printed book inclosed , being entituled , a reply to that part of spira's despair revived , in which the baptists in general are concerned ; but more especially those at ashford in kent . &c. upon reading of the same , i find it such as may , if unanswer'd , turn to my great disgrace and contempt ; yea , and not only so , but it may be a means to invalidate that evidence which i have brought in that spira revived for the truths of the blessed gospel , witnessing against the atheistical principles of this age : and yet further , this shameful reply ( for so it shall quickly be detected ) is dedicated to the honourable lord wharton , seeking patronage from so great and worthy a person , and so abusing of his name . these things have such weight with them , besides what else i shall offer toward the conclusion , that though some are for my silence altogether ( it being hardly worth while to answer such ignorant and clamorous persons , my own integrity , through the grace of god , being well known , and no ways obnoxious to their slanders , being not likely , i mean , to suffer any dimution in my credit and reputation here upon ) yet i cannot forbear , being so nearly concerned , and especially for the truth 's sake , to write a few lines , and publish a short answer in order to so just and necessary a vindication . now , that i may not be tedious , being indeed under a temptation thereto , writing in so just a cause , in defence of the truth and my credit , which are exposed in a shameful manner by that reply , i will confine my pen with in these narrow bounds , to write but of three things ; one concerning the person who makes the reply , and the manner of it ; th●● next concerning the charge which is brought against what i formerly published in that spira , so far as it respected the anabaptists which consists of two parts ; one concerning the poor melancholy distracted man , r. m. and his tragical end ; which gave me occasion to reflect on the anabaptists , as those that did him some wrong , troubling him with their notions about the necessity of rebap●●zation ( or being dipped ) which prov'd injurious to him in his weakness and strange confusion of mind : the other concerning what i have written of their practising the like upon many others in much like cases , troubling the weak and unsetled christians , eagerly urging them to be dipt , and , as i said , making it a salve for every sore . in doing this i will consider the most material passages in that piece , laying open the ignorance and injustice of the publisher , the several slanders , falshoods , and such other things as make it appear to the world , that what i wrote of the anabaptists , so far as i had knowledge of them , was true and sincere ; and that their reply is a mere slander , and bold and impudent denial and contradiction ; whereas they have nothing to object in truth and sobriety . the first thing which i consider , and is very material , is the person who makes the reply , and goes about to lay grievous matters to my charge , as though i had wickedly forged all i have written against the anabaptists . in the conclusion ( p. 23. ) he writes thus of himself and the matter : sir , i am a stranger to you , n. b. and to the whole matter , any otherwise than as i meet it in your book ( and some friends ●ear you gives some account ) which hath loaded us with a greater weight ●han is fit to be born . now surely this is a strange thing , and most unrighteous , unjust , and , it may be , unparalell'd , for a person who owns himself a perfect stranger to me ( as indeed he was , and is ) upon the reporting a matter to him , to write and print at ●his rate against me . what , a stranger to the whole matter , and yet to print at this confident rate , aspersing , and slandring me for what i have written ; and yet he knows not but it may be all true ; as indeed it is , and will be made appear ? but mr. wells , ( for i think he that is a preacher , and is entrusted to print on the behalf of his brethren , may deserve this title ; though what he is , or his quality or calling i know not ) was told what i had written was all false ; and of this some friends gave him an account : what then , is mr. wells's pen become mercenary ? and will he be a champion for his friends , right or wrong , though perchance he fight against the truth ? how is it otherwise than so , seeing he knew not the contrary , never hearing but one side ? but surely charity should have believed better , and ●oped better of a man of whom he knew nothing ; and i have reason to think that no crime was laid to my charge by his friends ( and mine adversaries ) save only , i charged them thus and thus ; and i cannot else imagine how he comes to give me that honest title of worthy sir. strange , that he should print against me , and declare peremptorily to the world , that i was guilty of all the evil he says of me , and not first vouchsafe to send a few lines , and enquire whether i could make any defence for my self , or had any thing to say before he pass'd sentence , and openly condemn'd me : what , did he think i had nothing indeed to say , not one word ; no evidences to be produced , nor any proofs of what i had alledged ? that good old sentence , audi alteram partem , which was ever esteemed so necessary a rule in judgment , is quite laid aside , and not at all regarded ; it seems mr. wells never thought of it , and , to speak the truth , i vehemently suspect he never knew it . should a judge sentence a man upon report only of his accusers , never examining him , nor hearing what he had to say for himself , it would , no doubt , be construed the greatest piece of injustice and cruelty : such as that of king james the first ; who coming out of scotland to london to take the crown of england , first discover'd his disposition to arbitrary government , saith my author at newark ; for being told that one had cut a purse in newark , the king , without any legal process , or the defence of the party , signed a warrant to the sheriff of lincolnshire to hang him , which was executed accordingly : and this , saith he , was a blot in the scutcheon of king james the first . the romans were so just as never to put any man to death in this manner . this is indeed against the very light of nature , to judge and condemn upon meer reports , without hearing the other side . not only life , but a good name are too precious to be cast away at this rate . one would think that mr. well 's never went to a latin school , or was read in such authors , or how could he but have called to mind that golden sentence of seneca , qui statuit aliquid parte inaudita altera , aequam licet statuerit , haud aequus fuerit ? had his sentence been just , yet without hearing first what i had to say for my self , it had been unjust from him . but still they were some friends gave him this account . were his friends therefore infallible ? could they not possibly misinform him ? what an implicite faith was this ? how just like the proceedings of the spanish inquisition ? the tribunal erected de propaganda fide ! wherein the accusers are examined in secret ; and the poor prisoner is a stranger to all that passeth , till they begin to thunder against him , and proceed to torture , and sentence , and execution . but might not these men , my accusers to mr. wells , after so many months running to and fro , and stirring in the matter , at last give in some false evidence ? i am sure they did , and that notoriously , as i will evince by and by ; and i will perswade my self , having so much charity for him , that mr. wells will own it . had but the letter he had sent me with his book , been sent but some months before , his pains and trouble might have been spared , and his credit saved ; whereas now , he hath brought himself into a snare , to gratifie his friends , who impos'd upon his credulity , so that he prints gross falsehoods , never seeking to clear the matters to himself , before he set pen to paper . how vain was it for him to write thus to me in his private letter ; worthy sir , it s very unpleasant to me to be troublesome to any , but i cannot well avoid giving you the trouble of these lines . alas ! the trouble of reading a letter is not much ; but surely it would trouble any christian to be thus slandered in print ; especially when writing a few lines a little sooner , and taking that small trouble , might have prevented so great calumnies : what was this but to shoot secretly at me , and also to wound me openly , and then to desire me not to be troubled , because he is so kind to tell me what he hath done ? like those rude persons , who cry , by your leave , sir , when they have first shewed you some incivility , or done a man some diskindness . but then he desires me not to take unkindly what he hath printed ; for , saith he , i have been as tender of you as the matter will bear ; but if you suppose ▪ me to be mistaken , assign wherein , and i shall , god , willing , labour to give you satisfaction , &c. great tenderness indeed ! and a wonderful care not to grieve me with what was printed : but wherein doth it appear ? resolved , it seems , he was , or his friends rather ( for he saith in his reply , p. last , he was sure he did it unwillingly ) or both were so resolv'd and eager to expose me in print . but what satisfaction shall i now have ? will mr. wells confess his fault as publickly , and declare himself in an errour ? yea , that he hath wronged an innocent person , and a stranger ? that he hath traduced me in a very shameful manner ? that he hath acted most unadvisedly , hand , over head , as we say ) and very unchristianly , not seeking out the truth , as he ought , and easily might , before he past sentence , and condemned me openly ? truly , at the first of my books coming forth , and the noise and speeches of the anabaptists about me , threatning grievously , i did expect something in print ( for what do they not dare to do of this nature , yea and delight in it also ? ) but when it had lain by so many months , i was a little surprized to find it done ; but especially to be managed by a stranger , whose name i know not , i ever heard before , i read it in his letters ; nay , i find , by their own confession , he is a stranger to those very men ( some at least , by the confession of one of them to me ) who set him on work ( i. e ) him , or any body else could be procured . if my neighbours could not write themselves ( and yet three of them are teachers , and one hath been offering at it , scribling out many sheets in the point of controversie ) nor find a man nearer than london , yet surely he should have considered better with himself , and not have been so hardy , as to have written in a case wherein he knew not one thing or other ; not the person accused , nor what defence he could make , and how he could justifie himself , and make good his charge , only being informed by those whose interest it was to blast what i had written . when the apostle paul had heard of the disorders in the church of corinth , how doth he write to them about it 〈…〉 why thus ; when ye come together in the church , i hear that there b● divisions among you ; and i partly believe it : he partly believed what he only heard by report ; but mr. wells roundly takes up the matter reported to him by his friends against me , and believes every word which the wise man brands for simplicity : the simple , saith he , believes every word . ah! mr. wells , had you acted mor● charitably , and cautiously , you had not discover'd your self so fa 〈…〉 nor done me this wrong ; your folly had not been manifested nor had i suffered so much as this groundless suspicion of evil doing , which you prompt the world to , as you have represented m● ▪ but i hope mr. wells will pardon me that i bear so hard upon him for my vindication doth not a little depend upon it , though yet have clear proofs to produce also . it was not only folly and injustice in mr. wells to do thus ; but it may be a sufficient argumen● to the world , that what he hath written against me is of n● value ; for they were my adversaries who gave him instruction● ( surely it was so , and he did not write of himself ) and he prin● only upon hear-say from such as bestirr'd themselves to throw o●● the charge was laid against them . but now if mr. wells thin● or pretend that i have done him wrong in all this , as though he ha● only written to enquire into the truth , as he saith in his preface ▪ his great end is to find out the offenders , and that this is his great enquiry , let him know that therein he doth abuse his readers , and suggest falsehoods in so saying : for his very title confutes him ; it is this ? a brief reply , &c. wherein the unjust charge of mr. thomas james against them ( i. e. the baptists ) is removed : n. b. is removed : what doth this imply , but that he hath clear'd the matter fully ? proved his party innocent ; convincing me of falshood in all i have written ; making me a slanderer , a lyar , and what not ? but more fully yet , after the preface to the reader , in the title again , a brief reply , &c. wherein he hath falsely charged them , n. b. as will appear in the following discourse . i pray in what page or line is this appearance found ? where are the proofs ? is there any thing shewed , but only confidently said , and a gainsaying of what i had written ? let impartial readers judge if mr. wells's book do not center in this , and all he brings be only a contradicting the matters i published , and averring that i wrote not a word of truth . if his title had run after this manner , ( and he had kept to it ) a challenge to mr. j. to prove what he hath printed against the anabaptists about ashford , it had been tolerable ; but to talk of making all appear , is like the rest of his piece . thus he stumbles in the threshold , and that is very ominous for him ; for he falls worse and worse ever after ( beginning with a very foul lye , as i shall shew by and by , and ending with a passage that overthrows all he writes . ) just so it is with his dealing with the text of scripture ; a text in the very next place , which he ●ets before the main work ( i hope he handles his texts to more purpose before his congregation , ) prov. 18. 17. he that is first in his own cause , seemeth just ; but his neighbour cometh and search●th him . a mighty search ! and because my neighbours gave him ●ome account , very pat to the case in hand no doubt : but for the ●earch , if mr. wells had come to ashford , he might have searched ●ut somewhat , enough i am sure to have stopp'd his hand ; but ●o search this matter at london was ridiculous . he search'd , it ●eems , with his friend's eyes , and ears ; and so he finds just as ●uch as they of the matter , ( i. e. ) whatever they would have . what , a stranger to the whole matter , and yet search it out ! for ●ame , mr. wells write to be believed ; i thought hearing a re●ort was not searching : at this rate we may search out many things 〈◊〉 these times of war , with a great deal of ease , what is done in ●landers , france , spain , turkey , and where not ? but if you trust reports , you may be miserably deceived , though the news be told as confidently as your friends could tell you this matter : one cries victory , and makes bonfires , and sings te deum ; and yet it may be comes off with the loss : another saith nothing was done ; and it may be it was a great action : i think when we search to know the truth , we do more than hear what parties in the case say , and interested persons say of it : not that i think it is impossible to know the truth by one party , and examining witnesses on one side ; but when life or credit are at stake , it is highly unjust to go this way , to believe all that is said , and then boldly tell the world in print , i have searched out the whole matter , and he is a slanderer , &c. there is one thing further concerning mr. wells's carriage , which i observe , and then dismiss this head ( sc . ) how unchristianly , how uncharitably he carried it . why should he , being a stranger to me , and the whole matter , believe his ashford friends against me altogether , when he saw my design in writing that little piece was good ; and that wherein i reflected on their carriage , it was done so candidly , as though i were unwilling to say what i said out of a respect to them ? let the reader consider it , if i did not write candidly , and express'd the matter with moderation . these are the words i began the reflection with ; 't is beside my purpose to make reflections upon persons of any opinion or persuasion in religion , besides atheists , who are its avowed enemies . the anabaptists ( or baptists , as they rather chuse to call themselves ) are men to whom i bear no such grudge , or envy , as to bring up any evil report upon them , as a calumny or unjust accusation : god forbid , that while i am writing for christianity , i should act so contrary to one of its principles , as to do thus : they are christians , and will , i doubt not , espouse this cause of our lord with my self ; and there are some of them my worthy good friends , pious , judicious persons ; but this i must publish upon this sad occasion ; and i pray god the guilty would consider it , &c. if this were not courteous , candid , charitable , what is ? yea , mr. wells doth own it sometimes , though he forgets what he writ at other times ; for he calls it flattery , and a meer pretence , p. 16 , 17. which shews what he could not but think of it , that it was very fair , only he judges my heart , and acts uncharitably , rendring me evil for good : for i seriously protest , i wrote this out of good will , and not fawningly . but because this is the proper place , i cannot but take notice of his ignorance also , in quarrelling , and thinking to fasten a reproach upon me for pretending christian friendship to the anabaptists , and stiling them my pious and judicious friends , and yet at the same time publishing such matters against them ; this he observes , p. 16 , 17. once and again . now this , i say , is gross ignorance in mr. wells , or worse , that he could not , or would not distinguish and see the difference i made between some and others of the anabaptists , between the innocent and guilty , and those who were my friends and others . i said plainly thus , they are christians , &c. and then i declare of some of them thus ; and there are some of them my worthy good friends , pious , and judicious persons then ; and i pray god the guilty would consider it : now all this he jumbles together , and makes all the anabaptists my worthy , pious , and judicious friends ; and then wonders that i dealt so by them , as to accuse them thus ; and is not this tragical , saith he , to cut the throat of your friends reputation ? but surely mr. wells is no logician , or the meanest ever known , who cannot distinguish , nor perceive a difference in so plain a case , not to apprehend that some hath others for its opposite ; yea , that some imports a few out of many in such sentences as these : but whether he knew it or no , he hath hapned upon an unlucky fallacy in logick ( which is his natural logick it seems , and i would not have him proud of it ) to compound what should be divided , to huddle all together , and so to impose a wrong sense ; whereas it is true taken distinctly and apart as it ●ought : and what is more common than to speak of a multitude , and not to mean every individual of them . what will he think of st. paul when he affirmed that to be true of the cretians , which one of their own poets had written of them : the cretians are always lyars , evil beasts , slow bellies ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . epimenides . ) this witness is true , saith he . what , every man , woman and child in crete lyars , beastly , and slothful , pagans and christians too ? no sure , but it was vitium gentis , an epidemical evil , a fault they were too much guilty of : as if i should say , the patriarchs were guilty of poligamy ; yet not all therefore , not isaac , &c. but what would mr. wells think at this rate of that place were it is said , the disciples had indignation at the ointment pour●d on christ's head ? would he condemn them all for judas , of whom it is written ? and calumniate the holy text , as je 〈…〉 me tells us some did in his days ( nescientes tropum qui vocatur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quo & pro uno omnes , & pro multis unus appellari soleat ) not knowing it was a figurative expression . however , to satisfie him and his friends , i will explain my self , and declare my own sense , though it be plain enough i called all of them christians , and some my friends , and some guilty ; i count the anabaptists in general christians , but some few of them i called my friends , pious and judicious persons ; but i will assure him , those whose practices i have known about ashford , and written against , i account none of this sort ; and whoever acts in like manner , as far as i have knowledge thereof , shall for ever be discharged by me of that character , pious and judicious . but it is time to leave mr. wells himself . come we now to the matters of fact : and here he urgeth wonderfully , to assign the person or persons guilty of what i charge the baptists with : thus in the epistle dedicatory , in the letter to me printed before the body of the reply , and in the reply it self , at every turn he urgeth this ; and if i should fail herein he commends it to my lord wharton to see that publick satisfaction be given ; and to my church to take a course with me . but now , what if the case do not require all this ? what if it be not necessary or convenient ? what , must a minister tell the anabaptists , and all the world , what every one in trouble discover'd to him ? must he publish the names of every one concerned ? it may be an husband or wife is concerned , parents and children , masters and servants , and the circumstances are such that it is no ways fit or meet to name or assign persons ; possibly it may breed variance and strife , and promote great disorders in families , and in the neighbourhood : it may be some nabals are concerned , some shimei's , who would trouble their own houses , and fill the town with raillery . may not a minister spare names in such a case , but he must be cryed down for one that spreads slanders ? but it seems mr. wells and his friends care not what becomes of any person , nor consider what is meet and fit , what mischief they pull down upon others heads , so they may but salve their own credit , as they would perswade themselves : but , i doubt not , the world will judge this an extravagant request , to urge the printing the names of private persons : and indeed i cannot conceive what good it will do those who know not these parts , to read the names of strange places and persons , which will sound as harsh as greek and hebrew perchance to mr. wells . as for those of their own party who did these evil things , i am sensible they have their evasions to cast off the reproach , ( and it is likely they lie upon the catch ) such an one is none of them ; such an one they own not ; though it may be a teacher , or an old anabaptist , persons certainly dipped , and baptists , or nothing . but so it is , many times they shift the matter off thus ; and , as the historian said of some enemies , difficilius est invenies quàm vincere . but is not this crying out for assigning persons a mere artifice , to be so impatient of this kind of proof , and so long a time laps'd since the matter was first published ; and since 〈◊〉 concerned to give their testimony are their own friends ? and who will doubt but that by this time they are taught their lesson , to speak but sparingly , not the whole truth , or so fully as to prejudice their own cause ? but i do but shew how vain it is for mr. wells to urge this assigning persons ; they need not encourage themselves to hope to escape by this stratagem : proofs i have to produce sufficient and abundant , and yet will be sparing of names , even of the most criminal . first , as for the case of that poor melancholy man , r. m. who made that tragical exit . the case , as far as i am conscerned , was this : one of the same name , and of his kindred , desired me to go and visit him upon the account of his deplorable condition ; and he importuned me not a little , using this as a special argument , that he was continually assaulted by the anabaptists , who in this weakness of body and mind were like to work their will upon him . upon this i went once ( and never more ) and my carriage was as i printed in the narrative of his condition ; and in discoursing with me , he did declare himself in such a manner , tht i was satisfied that the opinion of the anabaptists about rebaptization was a great trouble and vexation to him . it is now several years since my being with him at that time ( about five years since , his death was about four years and an half , and his trouble lasted about three quarters of a year , as i have learnt from his sister , a baptist , who lived all the time with him ; ) and so i think no wise man will expect i should be positive as to the words of our discourse ; truly my memory is not so happy ; yea , i am sorry the matter is so far gone from me ; for i am sure he spake so much as made that clear to me , which was a motive to carry me to him . ( sc . ) that he was troubled about the anabaptists doctrine of dipping ; and that his infant baptism was null ; and that he must be rebaptized . now , what if i could not find out one baptist had been with him ? can it be thought when his sister who kept his house was one of them , that in all his trouble none came near him ? no , not when he had follow'd them formerly , and now in his trouble return'd to hear them again , as mr. wells tells us , p. 15. and his own sisters owned to me . surely what i learn'd from himself was a thousand witnesses to me , and what was clear enough by other circumstances . but see how it pleaseth god to put them to shame , and to condemn them out of their own mouth . one of their teachers ( one of the three who was with me upon the account of my book , did own to us , that he was with him the same day , or the very next , after my being there , and that he discoursed with him of these matters , and that he urged believers baptism to him ( meaning dipping upon profession of faith. ) now supposing no more evidence could be produced ; yet upon this alone , how shameful was it for mr. wells to publish thus , p. 11. first , we observe , that you were the only man that visited , discoursed , and advised this poor man in his deplorable estate ; and p. 11. mr. james was the man chiefly concerned with him in his hurry and trouble of mind ; but to the end he may not be thought remiss , and the better to seem clear , he finds out some to be mentioned , that , he says , did so much wrong . o shameful ! was ever any matter turned so fouly against another ? what , when i was desired to visit him by one of his kindred , pitying his condition ; when a minister was carried to visit a poor disturbed man , must he therefore suffer in his reputation ; and have the odium of all cast upon him ? but , alas ! 't is too plain for them , that he was wounded by the anabaptists ; and i found him with an arrow shot in , sticking fast , and tormenting him ; and to keep him in their bonds , one of their teachers , as himself owned , and is certain , is with him the same day ( for so the woman , his baptist sister is positive , though he were not ) urging believers baptism : whether he were there accidentally or not , or upon design , i know not ; but there he was , and discoursed ; and advised him . yea , further , at another time , as the woman confessed to me in presence of a gentleman who accompanied me to her house , june 12. there was one f — another teacher among them , who visited him , and had private discourse with him about an hour which f — ; saith another sister , he was carried to hear preach , and shewed some uneasiness as he went , and , as she judged , she was dissatisfied ; but one of the neighbours , a baptist , and his sister , she found going along with him ; which neighbour had been at the house , and , she doubts not , brought him thither ; and out of pity to him in his condition she went along with him also , and heard the same man. yet mr. wells saith , we observe , that you were the only man that visited , discoursed , and advised this poor man in his deplorable estate : what will the world think of this ? what can they ? to begin his reply thus , first , we observe : truly , if you observe at this rate , you may observe first , secondly , thirdly , and infinitely , even as far as you please , or can invent . but , mr. wells , did you observe this at london by your selfe , or did your ashford friends give you these instructions ? if you did it alone , it was a wonderful observation indeed ; you had better eyes than lynceus , and more surely than argus ; but if your friends gave you this instruction , it was so much the worse : for one of them , ( as another confest to me ) whose hand was to the letter to get a reply set forth , was one who confest that he was with the man in his trouble , and discoursed , and advised him : so then here are two of your teachers found to be with him ; and who will not think but there were others also of your opinion in the space of about nine months of his illness ? but , again , i pray , mr. wells , how was i conversant with him , as you write , p. 14. when i never spake to him but that one time in my life ? never but once in his company , so as to be able to discourse with him ? i had thought , to be conversant , had implied a familiarity and frequenting a persons company ; so that this is no good english , and that is the best interpretation of it , or i know not how to excuse the same from a falshood . but i begin to grow weary of tracing our these slanders , and untruths ; i will take notice only of one thing more ( about the case of this r. m. ) and dismiss this head : and really it is a sad thing , to consider how these men strive and struggle , and are restless till they entangle themselves , and write and print at that rate that doth ill become christians , whom i was willing , and desire yet to own as such . pray , reader , now observe what follows in these words , p. 15. mr. james bestirs himself to persuade him , that his infant baptism was true baptism , n. b. and to go to town to board , and make use of a physician of his own way , and to bear him ; which was done : but the poor man grew weary , not liking the means that was used . and it seems , and as he told his sister , that they were in a consult what to do about him ( one day ) and , unexpected to them , he over-heard them ; and one said , he was in love ; and another said , he had not a dram of true grace ; but he , hearing this , it made an addition to his weak disturbed head , n. b. and gets away , and relates the matter to his sister , and so waxes worse and worse , till at last he ends his life . for my part , when i read and consider this i am amazed ; so many lyes in one story ! such falshoods sent forth so bare-fac'd ! if my neighbours gave these instructions to their brother wells , they are what i never took them to be ; if he printed it of himself , it is little better in him . did i design a large answer , here is a large field for it , and matter enough for one of no great parts to work upon , enough to wind and toss , and for ever shame mr. wells , and all his friends who have acted in this business : surely some body owed them an ill turn , and secretly wrought it this way . but however it were , and though my neighbours might deserve most , yet i must keep to mr. wells only ; and truly he hath discovered himself all along to be an unaccountable writer : once before , he observed that i was the only man was with r. m. during his trouble of mind ; this he saw , it seems , at london ; there he could tell who went in and out , and discoursed him ; and here he saw him at board at ashford ; which no creature in ashford ever saw , no , not any of his anabaptist friends ; since mr. wells sent out this strange relation , we have ask'd his friends here , and they are ignorant of the matter : when i discoursed his sister , the baptist , who was his house-keeper , she only said , she thinks he was one night at ashford at his cousins , r. m. ( the person who carried me over to visit him ) and her son who went with him , will say , he was : but the family deny it , and all say it was no such thing , and are certain he never lodged there one night , he dined indeed one day there ( as they tell me ) and went up into a chamber , and lay down on a bed to refresh him ; but never lay one night in their house . but suppose it , that he were one night in town ; what is this to boarding , and being there a time , consisting of some days at least ; and getting away from thence , as though he were under some confinement in the use of means for his recovery ? well , it seems mr. wells is good at invention , and that is a notable part of an orator ; but it is just as his natural logick i observed before : i dare say , no master of rhetorick did ever teach him to invent after this manner : aristotle , cicero , quintilian , &c ▪ would have been ashamed of it , though they were heathens : and though we may sometimes conceal truth , and this we have presidents in scripture for , yet neither the light of nature , nor the written word , will allow us to forge after this manner . but who made this officious lye i know not , only this i observe , that because they would print somewhat , and had little to go upon ( nothing in truth ) therefore they have set up all this sail , and run themselves a ground . mr. james bestirs himself , saith he ; strange , that one visit , and but a very short one , should be a bestirring a man's self , when it was but a few miles off , and the man lay so long in trouble , that i might have been there many scores of times for one , or as oft as some of my adversaries take occasion to talk with those they hope to bring over to their opinion . but what did i persuade him him to ? why , to go to town to board : just as much as to go to london ( or elsewhere ) to be dipt by mr. wells ; of whose name , at that time , i know not that i had ever heard : and , how should any know that i perswaded him to such a thing as this ? my friend with me , who heard all our discourse , is a perfect stranger to it ; and his sister declares , she heard nothing of all we said . but now , least i do them wrong , and give not the true sense and meaning of the words ; and to do mr. wells wrong , ( though indeed it would prove well for him if he had only written false english , and mistook in the sense ) i appeal to all englishmen , and desire every reader to say , if this be not the true meaning of the words , that i perswaded the man ( r. m ) to go to town to board , and make use of a physician of my own way , which was done ( i. e. the man took my counsel , and came to ashford to board ) and while he was here , after sometime ( longer or shorter it matters not , so it be allowed to be but some days , for so he writes , of one day ) while they were consulting together ( surely he means the physician and my self ; for he mentioned no other before , and his sense carries it this way ) he heard them say thus and thus ; and so he gets away . now if i have given his sense right , and understand his english ; which surely is even so , if mr. wells write intelligibly , then here is a wild romance , and a tale told , and a foul pack of lyes , and all to make me ridiculous . but i would fain know , who of all ashford town can say , that ever r. m. was here at board , during his melancholy ? what anabaptist can stand forth , and help mr. wells , or his friends , out of this mire ? in whose house did he board or lodge ? as for my own part , i protest i do not know , nor can i call to mind that ever i saw that poor man but once at his own house , and once or twice while i was in the pulpit : but that the doctor and my self should ever discourse of him thus , and he near enough to over-hear us , is too like some other passages in the reply . yea , if they would turn it upon his cousin r. m. and his wife , that they said so , and talked so foolishly ( as i find they harp upon it ) yet that will not serve their turn ; for they not only deny it , but mr. wells hath written and printed it ( as i think i have shewed ) quite otherwise . well ; upon this wonderful relation , he gravely proceeds : now if this be so , then all this stirr to bespatter the baptists , is to clear your self : but you are the more intangled , and are taken in the snare you laid ; and i could wish there had been no occasion to discover it . discover it ! a wonderful discovery indeed . i am perswaded when this vindication comes forth , mr. wells will wish indeed , with all his heart , there had not one been word written by him , and that his friends had been tongue-tied when they told him such a story . are these the bonds and fetters mr. wells and his friends have put upon me ? and do they think to bring me forth and expose me thus to make them sport ? alas ! i can as easily break them as sampson did his wit hs and cords ; and i am certain they themselves have pull'd down an house upon their heads . for shame let mr. wells write a retractation , though it be but for the sake of this single story ; and seeing it is resolved , that he or some other shall answer again , write what i will , as one of them told me ( it seems they are greatly in love with printing , and are proud of appearing such able persons ) by all means let them clear this foul matter , but let them take care least their stirring too far make it worse . but it is high time to come to other things ; and that , in the last place , to answer the accusations brought against me , as though i had slandered the baptists , in representing them as persons wh● are industrious to make proselytes , and in urging dipping , so a● to make it a salve for every sore . 't is needless to set down th● reply made to this charge ; and i am really afraid i shall tire m● reader in leading him up and down after mr. wells's defence 〈◊〉 his friends and party : though for brevity i repeat not his word● yet i will do him no wrong ( if i should it would appear , and not be to my advantage ; ) but i propound the case plainly , and answer it home . these are the things then he quarrels with me for , having reflected on the anabaptists as industrious to make proselytes ; and urging dipping , as though all religion did consist in going down into the water ; and , in short , he challenges me to assign the guilty , or else , he saith , p. 21. it must be concluded , you cannot ? and then in what a shameful case will you appear ? now , as to my assigning the criminals , i have already said a little in answer thereto ; it is not always fit and meet , nor is it material : cui bono ? to what good would it be ? i have named some to their teachers , and instead of taking a course with them , they thought to take a course with me , and promised one mr. wells to print against me for justifying my charge , and to tell the world confidently all was a slander . what should i name any persons to the world , when they have been named publickly enough , and they take no notice , ( not at least to be openly known of ) but shut their eyes , and stop their ears , and run upon me , and cry out , that i will give no proofs or satisfaction ? i appeal to those few present at that time , when they attended me ( to use mr. well's own words , ( p. 9. ) after the publishing my book , i appeal , i say , to the consciences of their three teachers , whether i did not name several guilty of the things i laid to their charge . but to clear all at once , and to satisfie their longing desires ( so far as is any ways meet and ●it ) of assigning persons , both those who were troubled and almost distracted by the anabaptists urging it upon them to be dipp'd , as ever they hoped to go to heaven , and be saved ; and those who did trouble them , laying this mighty stress upon dipping . i say , to put an end to all , that i may clear my self , and shew how able i am every way to vindicate my self from the foul slanders cast on me , and to make my charge good to a tittle ; let mr. wells know that i have several depositions of persons by me , which fully prove the matter in hand , subscribed freely , and which will be readi●y attested , and solemnly , upon just occasion . behold one in form , ●s i have it by me with so me others . i , n. n. do own and testifie , that n. n. hath divers times , and to my great vexation and disquietude , urged me to be dipped ; setting forth the absolute necessity thereof to salvation ; inveighing against those who practised infant baptism , as antichristian , and urging me to be dipped , as ever i expected to enter into the kingdom of god. witness my hand , n. n. but , alas ! should i go about to lay open the practises of the anabaptists ( about us ) and reveal what many poor weak christians have told me , with great bitterness of spirit , how burthensome their very life was to them by reason of their importunate sollicitations to bring them to be dipped , and their desperate speeches striking an horrour into their minds , vexing their souls continually , it would , i doubt , sound very strange to many readers : but so it is in truth ; and yet , forsooth , these persons would fain be counted innocent , and cry out of the wrong i have done them . one instance i cannot but produce , and that a little largely , it being so material ; and i am glad ( as the case is ) to take the opportunity to let the world know it , and judge thereof . and because mr. wells hath sprinkled here and there a little of the point of controversie , and his ashford friends make advantage of his reply ( such as it is ) to scatter their books among us ( and surely the like was never known : for to this book of his they have tack'd another ( stitch'd them together ) yea , and more than so , at the end of his reply there are these few lines printed to couple them together ; and , as to the point of baptism , we refer that to the following treatise , formerly written by another hand , intituled , the reason why , &c. good mr. wells , why did you not send me a perfect copy ? but i suppose you thought i should hardly be caught with your chaff , and therefore a few books were provided for my self , and such as could better judge what was written ; truly this was civilly done , not to trouble me with any more books than your own ; and now it seems i have nothing to do to answer any thing but your reply ; this is a kindness i acknowledge ( i say ) because mr. wells hath scattered up and down somewhat of controversie , i think it convenient to give a touch or two to the same , to prevent mistakes and error , and to send forth an antidote for others , as well as a vindication for my self . the instance by which i take occasion to write this , was this : a woman aged near forty years came to me to be baptized : upon instructing her in the principles of christian religion , and her answering to such questions about the same , as seemed to me necessary , ( first having consulted the practice of other churches in like cases ) and professing her faith and repentance , i baptized her on a lord's day in the evening before the communicants : now , quickly upon her being so baptized , the matter being noised abroad , she was set upon by the anabaptists , even as i have represented the too common practice of some of them ; and one of them in their communion ( which they cannot disown ) did exceedingly perplex this poor woman with questions and cavillings , asking her what faith she had in what was done , and speaking against it as no baptism , seeing she was not dipped : this really disturbed her , so that she lamented it to me ; not that she was unsetled , or believed them , but because they followed her with such discourses , giving her no rest : yea , at the very time of writing this ( which is now about two years since her being so baptized ) the design is carried on very busily to proselite her : she declares to me , how she is continually disquieted by that party ; she now tells it me with tears , that she is wearied by them , and hath desired them to let her rest , being well satisfied in her baptism . but that which is yet more considerable , is this : at the time when those three teachers were with me about about my book , among others whom they press'd me to name , and instance in , i named this woman , and represented the evil of this practice , in going about thus to disquiet a poor weak woman , who was baptized so authentickly ( as one would think all christians should allow ) being an adult person , having profess'd her faith and repentance before the administration of the sacrament . hereupon one of them had the confidence to tell me , it was indeed no baptism . monstrous doctrine ! what will become of christians at this rate ? and what hope can millions have , to whom it hath been applied in any other way than that of the baptists ? what , can a mode destroy the essence of the ordinance ? and shall the application of water in a less quantity render it altogether ineffectual , and destroy its end and efficacy ? when the name of the true god , father , son , and holy ghost , is put upon the person ; and the true element of water is used ; and the principal end of its application signified , which is washing the soul with christ's blood , and purifying it by the blessed spirit ; and all is done by a minister ordained to that office : is not this baptism ? o , but she was not dipped , and that is baptism , and that only . poor , ignorant , confident men , thus to cavil ! the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chosen by christ , and the holy ghost , doth signifie to wash , as well as to dip ; it signifies a washing with water , not only a total immersion , but a partial ; not only a dipping , but other applications of water to wash : yea , it is certain , that some of those diverse washings under the law , spoken of by the apostle , heb. 9. 10. ( which he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ) were not total immersions , but partial , of one par● of the body , and another ; and even sprinklings , as at the consecration of the levites , numb . 8. 5 , 6 , 7. and at the cleansing o● a leprous person , levit. 14. 7. from the apostle i will lear● the meaning of this word , rather than from any baptist . but mr. wells , with his learning would teach us thus , p. 12. you cannot be ignorant but that baptiso is to dip , and is allowed , and approved to be so by the lexicons , dictionaries , and all approved authors that are orthodox ; ( 't is well he did not say only to dip for then i know what he had said , ) and 't is rare to find a schola● so weak as not for to allow it . truly 't is rare to find a baptist though he cannot read one word of greek , or understand latin , and yet not to talk and write of the sense of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as though they had consulted lexicons , dictionaries , and wha● not ? but is not this a fine begging of the question ? wh● ever denied dipping to be baptizing ? but mr. wells's friend● at ashford might be ashamed to say , that no other application o● water is baptizing ; and that this woman was not baptised for , i pray , what learned man ever rendred the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only to dip , exclusively to all other significations ? i have no● search'd ( as before-times ) lexicons and dictionaries , and fin● the word rendred indeed to dip , but also to wash , yea , an● to sprinkle ; there comes in an item , làvo , abluo : and surely 〈◊〉 is a significant word , as well as imprimis : every tradesman knows this . indeed at the rate some baptists writ and report the words of the learned , they would perswade silly people all the learned men were almost anabaptists ; yea , and ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) self-condemned , being as they are in opinion , though of a contrary practice . they make some speak a few words , and say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to dip , to plunge in water ; but then , as it were , stop their mouths , and cry hold ; whereas good men , might they go on , they would add , to wash , to pour on water , to sprinkle : and their quotations are much of this kind , very deceitful , per saltum , and keeping back a material part , and so making them to speak very favourably for them ; the very thing we are upon proves this , mr. wells saith , baptiso is to dip , as lexicons , &c. say , as though that were all , and it is needless to make a digression to shew it by their quotations of zanchy , piscater , calvin , poole , &c. but i would fain know , who can prove our lord jesus christ himself was dipped , or plunged in his baptism ; or that any of those baptized ones spoken of in the new testament , were so dipped or plunged ? not a word that ever i yet read did prove , i say , soundly prove it : probability is no proof of this degree ; opinion is not faith. an immersion there might be , and yet not a total one ; or , it may be some other application , as by pouring on of water . that baptism was oft performed of old by dipping , i gainsay not ; but that there were other ways , is certain also . pray let mr. wells construe these words . fundere aquam , infundere , and sometimes javare , abluere , found oftentimes in the writings of the antients ; yea , and sometimes aspergere , for baptizing ? also let him unriddle , how they baptized some in prisons , and in their beds , sick of feavours , in sweats , &c. as augustine tells us at large of a friend of his ? if this were not done by some other way than by dipping the whole body , let mr. wells declare how that could be . but shall we call in question at this day the baptism of all those in former ages who were not dipp'd ? and strike so many saints and martyrs out of the roll of the baptized , who are now in heaven ? an horrible boldness to speak at this rate ! but let them take heed ; for how , as i said , can they prove our lord himself was so dipped ? i am sure one ancient writer was of another mind , ( and surely he was not alone ) even aurelius prudentius , who sings thus of it ( being a famous christian poet flourishing about thirteen hundred years since ) perfundit fluvio pastus baptista locustis . i. e. john the baptist poured some of the water of the river on him ; our baptist would teach him to say , immergit fluvio , &c. but it seems he knew better , or at least thought otherwise : and bernard ( a later writer by far , and yet not very late neither , for he lived about five hundred years ago ; and hath the honour , if i mistake not , to be called by some , the last of the fathers ) hath this notable expression , infundit aquam capiti creatoris creatura-nobilior , & dei verticem mortalis dextra contrectat & contingit ; i. e. john the baptist , that noble creature , poured water on the head of the creator , and the right hand of a man touched and handled the head of god. i do not produce these testimonies , as though i would maintain that our lord jesus was not dipped but only to shew the boldness of those persons , who cavil at the baptism of all such as are not plunged in water , and do , by crying up dipp'd or damn'd , trouble the weak , and drive them into a dangerous melancholy . yea , what if the eunuch went down into the water , acts 8. 38. or christ came up out of the water , matth. 3. 16 , mark. 1. 10. ( though by the way 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is only , he came up from the water , not out of it ) what doth this prove ? dipping a total immersion ? surely they that say this may say any thing . but now we are speaking of baptism , i cannot but take notice of mr. wells's confidence , to call infant baptism a scriptureless notion , p. 14. and p. 13 , 14. he saith , sprinkling of infants is a new doctrine , a scriptueless thing , that is not to be found from the beginning of genesis to the end of the revelations : what , a new doctrine ? let the famous calvin , be heard , whom i chuse to quote , because i have see● him quoted in their books as one that wrote for their opinion 't is in that chapter , which he calls his appendix to the forme of baptism , written on purpose against the anabaptists , as the title and the first words declare : the title this , poedobaptismum cu● christi institutione , & signi natura optimè congruere ( i. e. ) infan● baptism's agreement with christ's institution , and the nature of the sign . the first words are these , quoniam autem hoc s●culo phrenetici quidum spiritus ob poedobaptismum graves excitarunt i● ecclesia turbas , &c. ( i. e. ) whereas in this age some phrensical ( or enthusiastical ) persons have raised great stirs in the church about infant baptism , and do not cease at this day to cause the same tumults , i cannot but subjoin this appendix to restrain their fury . now the passage i would quote out of this notable chapter , is this : quod autem apud simplicem vulgum disseminaret , longam annorum seriem post christi resurrectionem praeteriisse , quibus incognitus erat poedobaptismus ; in eo foedissimè mentiuntur : siquidem nullus est scriptor tam vetustus , qui non ejus originem ad apostolorum seculum pro certo referat ( i. e. ) whereas they talk up and down among the silly people , that it was many ages after christ's resurrection before infant baptism was known , in that they tell a most foul lye ; forasmuch as there is no writer so ancient , who doth not for certain refer the original thereof to the apostles age. but why doth mr. wells tell us of genesis , and the old testament ? who thinks baptism was the sacrament then in use ? but verily he hath laid himselfe open by this unwary expression : for i can tell him of a multitude of children baptized within that time ( and that by sprinkling also , through the dropping of the cloud and the dashing of the waters , as many learned doubt not ) and prove it out of holy scripture . let him read 1 cor. 10. 2. and see if the apostle do not say , that all the congregation of israel which passed through the red-sea , were baptized unto moses in the cloud , and in the sea ; the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; which i leave to mr. wells to interpret . were there not many children , thousands of them , when the men alone were above six hundred thousand ? children of all ages undoubtedly ? though paul calls them all fathers in the first verse , yet i suppose that must be taken in this sense , that as the children came to age , they also were all fathers in israel , their fore-fathers : yea , and this was typical in some sense of our sacrament of baptism , as he sheweth in the next verses , that their drinking of the water of the rock , was of the lord's supper : but why is mr. wells so over-confident ? it is a dangerous case , sure , to declare against infant baptism at this ●ate , as a new doctrine , when justin martyr , irenaeus , tertullian , origen , and those ancients who lived in the very next age to the apostles , speak plainly of it , as a practice in their days , and write of it as no other than apostolical : or why is he so confident to call it a scriptureless thing ; when several households are said 〈◊〉 scripture to be baptized ; and all the strength of the anabaptists can never make it clear there were no children in them ? but surely if families might be without them , yet there must be children in nations , and they were to be made disciples and baptized by christ's commission to his gospel ministry : but we do not lay our stress on these things , and build only on probabilities . no , but we are sure , that infants are the subjects of baptism , because they were of old of circumcision ; the church of the old and the new testament being one , only the seals of the covenant altered ; washing being a more gentle way of initiating , than cutting of the flesh : if we had not this priviledge under the gospel to have our children visibly entred and taken into god's church , the jews were really in a far better state than we , unless we will despise god's sacraments and ordinances , and care not whither our children partake of them , or go without them : yea , 't is certain , we are concerned in god's covenant , which he made with abraham and his seed , as the holy ghost witnesses in divers places , and have the same spiritual priviledges : nisi fortè arbitramur , christum suo adventu patris gratiam imminuisse aut decurtasse , quod ex ecrabili blasphemia non vacat ; as saith calvin in the former place ; ( i. e. ) unless we think that christ by his coming cut short his father's love and grace , which thought cannot be excused from blasphemy it self . but where is the repeal of that priviledge ? where is it said , i did indeed receive their children , but as for yours i will not be so gracious to them ? alas ! christ declares quite the contrary : he shewed his love to little children both by words and actions : and that good shepherd who marked his lambs of old as well as his sheep , would have them now washed alike in the laver of regeneration . but i must remember i write a vindication , and it is not my work to meddle with the questions in debate between us ; only i have touched at these things , being led to them by mr. wells , and to shew the vanity and strange confidence of these men in these matters ; it being that whereby they take the unwary and undiscerning souls . but i grow weary of writing ; and indeed this is the great mischief mr. wells hath done me ; he hath created me some trouble , and many thoughts , whereas my hands are full enough of work , the work of my ministry ; not being so happy as many of them , to mind a flock , and a family , and a trade also , and yet find time for disputing , printing , and what not , upon every little pretence ? were it not that i were afraid least i should betray the truth , and the souls of some poor people , who , it may be , expect this , as well as stand in need of it , i could be very well content to be silent ; but forasmuch as i am set for a defence of the gospel , i cannot let such matters pass without taking some pains , in a case where so many round me are so deeply concerned : not so much that i need to fear my self as others ; i think nothing hath befallen me , but what hath happened to other ministers of the gospel far above me . i did but touch them , and they have kicked against me , and made a sad noise . but , thanks be to god , they have prevailed but little hitherto , in those endeavours they have used to make proselytes ; of which i had reason to complain , and did seriously warn them . in six years i have lost but one of my flock , and that a young man , who was but a little while under my care , and so suddenly gone , that i was scarce aware of it before his departure : it was but once i had opportunity to speak to him before his being dipped , and then he utterly refused my offer to discourse with those anabaptists in his presence for his sake , who had perverted him ; nay , nor would he be brought to read a little piece i would have put into his hands , but rashly he would be dipped , and renounce his first baptism : and who could have stopped so resolute a person ? misguided zeal did strangely transport him , and since his dipping he hath done me some wrong by misrepresenting some things i had said of baptism ; but i forgive him . surely mr. wells hath lost his wit ( and that is pity indeed , he sheweth so little all along ) in that expression , p. 17. alas ! 't is to be supposed you have lost some of your disciples ( which ) makes you so peevish , pettish , froward , and unkind to your friends . no , mr. wells , not some , but one ; and my place is not thinn'd , but much otherwise ; yea , rather than fail , your friends ( it seems ) have a strong desire of doing me that honour to be my hearers : one of them who lived and dyed of your communion , a zealous person in your way , hath oft spoke to me and others of being my hearer most gladly , but refrain'd lest it should give offence : and another , who it seems ( as one of your teachers told me ) had been inclined to your opinion many years , yet having been my hearer for some time , after her being dipp'd lamented it with tears , that she must leave such preaching . truly in this i am become a fool , in glorying , but ye have compelled me . one thing more , and i conclude : whereas mr. wells makes a challenge to dispute with me , in his reply , especially in his private letter , i am afraid it would be but a spending time idly , to argue with that man , who knows not how to put the questions fairly he would dispute upon : his second offer is this , secondly , we are ready to try the cause , whether dipping or sprinkling be most ancient ? but what , i pray , would this come to ? who speaks against the antiquity of dipping ? but was it a total immersion , a dipping the whole person , certainly , infallibly , without guesses , conjectures , and probabilities ? yea , but what if so ? if christ give his churches liberty to baptize by pouring on water , or other application ( as the word will bear , as mr. wells may see in lexicons , if he can read and understand them ) then this question is meerly trifling . dipping there might be in christ's time , yea , and that the best way of baptizing , but yet not the only necessary way ; not absolutely so ; if in case of necessity and mercy men might break the sabbath , and be blameless ; or on the same account they might eat the passover on another month and day then god instituted it ; surely then , in case dipping were used of old , yet it is not of that absolute necessity as our baptists pretend , but in case of weakness , &c. may be dispenc'd with ; and where we have our liberty , why should we not make use of it ? but then his fourth assertion is more frivolous : fourthly , we are ready to prove , that dipping is baptizing , and that it is according to christ's institution . this indeed will require no great proof , and mr. wells may manage it , no doubt ; but the question is , whether a total immersion , dipping all the body , be the only baptism of christ , and nothing less , nothing else ; whither it be exclusive of any other application of water ; and this we deny ; let who can prove it . only the third question is of any moment , thirdly , whether the sprinkling of infants be the baptism of christ ? this he roundly denies ; and this comprehends both the subject and manner of application of the water ; so that it is all in one , and must be divided to be rightly handled . but i think it will not be worth while to dispute with mr. wells , of whom i do not know , nor doth he make it appear , that he hath the least learning that might be a means to keep him in order , and repress clamorousness and confidence . but if mr. wells have so much leisure , and his zeal be so great as to bring him to ashford , and my circumstances fairly permit it , i will not say but i may meet him upon this score ; i do not think to hide my head , but to give him an answer : but still i must profess , i am yet afraid of this , and cannot but perswade my self , that if it should come to a tryal , mr. wells would argue much after the same manner he writes ( i. e. ) poorly , and foully ; not handsomly nor honestly , being over-confident of what he hath no ground for ; and so he would create abundance of trouble to me , and perplex the matter he takes in hand . upon the whole , i do forgive mr. wells the wrong he hath done me , only desiring him , not to act so rashly for the future , judging in a cause , and condemning a person he is wholly a stranger to . as for my neighbours , who stirred him up , and were so eager for some body to print against me , and gave such false witness , i freely forgive them also ; only desiring them to mind their own business and to be quiet ; above all , to beware how they be concerned in printing , least they prejudice their own cause , and bring shame and disgrace upon themselves and their brethren also . post-script . considering whom i have to deal with , and for whose sake , in a special manner , i do write , in all likelyhood i have been so short , that i have been too obscure . it may be some through ignorance may think mr. wells's reply is not fully answered ; and others through a design may pretend and boast the same , asserting , that many considerable passages in his book are pass'd over in a deep silence ; and this they may falsly interpret , as though i purposely let them alone , not being willing to take notice of them , because not able to answer them : therefore , to prevent and remedy all this , take an answer , but very short , to those places hitherto omitted in the former vindication ( which i was willing to make one continued discourse ) an answer just enough to serve the turn ; and in this i will follow my opponent , and answer orderly . in the epistle to the reader ( near the end ) there is a very sarcastical passage , reflecting upon the presbyterians in general : but though it be hard , yet being nothing to our purpose , only a piece of raillery , which it would be easie , but unchristian , to retaliate , let it pass ; only i am sorry that mr. wells , who ( as it seems by his private letter to me ) is an old man , and who in his reply shews a great desire of moderation , should make such a blot in the beginning . in the beginning of the letter to me . worthy sir , whatever your ends and aims were in setting forth those tragical instances in your book , we cannot but take notice , that some part of your matter was to ridicule , and represent the anabaptists to the world , as a very weak insipid people , and yet crafty and industrious to catch men in despair , to make a party . as for my ends and aims , in setting forth that book , they were good , even such as i express'd , to bear my testimony against the atheism of this age , and to employ some part of the talent god had given me that way . what need you say , whatever they were , when i declared they were such as these ? but my design was far from ridiculing the anabaptists in such a manner as mr. wells sets it forth : it was indeed to warn and advise them ; and who cannot see how it came in ? who will think , or suspect i wrote that piece to reproach the anabaptists ? no , it was far from my heart and thoughts ; but in writing , this came in , and it seemed to me not amiss to make use of it , hoping it might do good , and might be serviceable to good ends , not to cavillings , and contradictions as it proves : but the success i leave to god. 't is very hard and unkind to bespatter us all with the miscarriage of a person , or persons ( if any such be . ) how little need there is of this reflection may appear by what i have written in my vindication . surely none will think me so weak ( or malicious , which yet i am sorry mr. wells ever and anon suggests ) as to charge this evil upon every individual baptist in england , or the whole world , who are far enough out of my knowledge : my words import no such thing , as i have cleared them , and shewed it was his ignorance so to take them . but why that parenthesis ( if any fuch be ? ) verily i had not written so , if i had not known it , or could not have proved it : but if mr. wells would not believe me , it was uncivilly done in him to go about to perswade the world to do the like . we desire you to assign the guilty , that we may clear our selves of that foul scandal , or else we prefume all is a fiction of your own brain , and with a malicious design to bespatter and abuse us . for assigning the guilty i have already answer'd at large , and done enough toward that ( i doubt not ) to clear my self , that it was no fiction of mine , much less a malicious design : but is not this very ? unchristian in mr. wells to surmize thus , and suggest such foul things as these ever and anon ? even such as one would not suspect of any who are not very obnoxious upon some evil account or other ? what , to forge such matters as these ? to lay a malicious design to abuse a party ? this is sad indeed : i am sorry mr. wells could harbour such thoughts of me , and print them too ; but the best of it is , he had no reason , unless he were confident that all his friends and society , were pure and infallible . mr. james was the man chiefly concerned with him ( i. e. r. m. ) in his hurry and trouble of mind ; but to the end he may not be thought remiss , and the better to seem clear , he finds out some to be mentioned that he says did so much wrong . and to the same purpose : upon your ill success you raise a clamour upon others to clear you ; and having digged a pit for them , fall in your self , and must be exposed to open shame and reproach . the former answer may serve very well for this . for it is all of one piece ; still unchristian , uncharitable , surmising and judging my heart , and mis-judging . truly this is a very false and wicked aspersion ; and 't is strange to me that a man should dare to hint such a thing as this , which surely he could not expect that any reader ( but deeply prejudiced ) should believe , and not rather abhor his suggestion . i pray what was there that i should seek occasion to clear my self , or find out some to take off any reproach might fall upon me ? i was desired by a kinsman of r. m. to visit him , and to obviate ( what i could ) the designs of some anabaptists ; what hurt , i pray , in my consenting and going thereupon ? or what need i to fear any shame if he did not hearken to my advice and comply therewith ( yea , how knows mr. wells but he did ? ) but i was so far from looking after this , that after that one visit i never spake more to him . how vainly and wickedly then doth mr. wells suggest such slanders ? indeed he takes a liberty to write almost any thing in this matter . secondly , you do say , they presently sat in with him ; and told him his way to have peace and comfort was to be dipped : now this mr. james doth particularly charge upon them , and therefore 〈◊〉 must hear or see this done , or else he hath published he knows no● what . no man , i think , will understand me that i said they told him in totidem verbis , but in sensu , that they perswaded him to this 〈◊〉 a way to peace and comfort . now this i did hear , though no● spoken to him , yet by a kinsman of his , who , as i said , used 〈◊〉 as a special argument to induce me to visit him ; yea , and 〈◊〉 heard so much from his own mouth that satisfied me , that it was even so : and i have proved it ( a posteriori ) in the former vindication , that there were some who did act thus , advising him about dipping as the way to peace ( for surely they did it not to trouble him , as i told k. l. when he owned his discoursing with him , and advising him upon that head. ) but that dipping should be a new doctrine in your esteem , seems strange to us , or that any that pretends to be a minister of the gospel ( and especially a scholar ) should so affirm . the dipping those already baptized ( or if you will , such as were baptized in infancy ) is indeed a new doctrine , and that is the case before us . which of the ancients did ever do this ? who ever pleaded for it till of yesterday ? of very late years ? let this be shewed by any of the baptists . though dipping be a baptizing , yet dipping those already baptized ( though but in infancy , or by pouring on of water ) is a new doctrine . where was this practiced in primitive times ? in what volume do we read it ? indeed one or two ( and i never saw more quoted ) were against baptizing in infancy ( but for other reasons than our baptists ) some even deferring it to a death-bed ; but not one that i have met with did declare , that if a child were baptized it was nothing , and the person must be rebatized , when adult professing faith and repentance . it s very probable mr. james might very much puzzle his weak disturbed head , if he press'd him to believe his new doctrine of sprinkling infants , or that his infant baptism would yield him any spiritual profit or comfort . it was not my work to press him thus , only i told him , it was no time now to think of new baptism , and being dipped : i applied other remedies than mr. wells suggests ; but i thought it proper ( as the case stood ) to shew him that it was no ways necessary to have his thoughts working at this time about dipping , but to rest where he was as to that point , and to call upon god , and resist the devil , &c. but was this solid and suitable to his malady , to instruct him , and make him believe his infant baptism was comfortable and profitable to him ? i pray how doth mr. wells know that i did thus ? what trifling is it to write and print at this rate ? is this a reply ? to whom , or to what ? if he had matter enough to write , surely he would have spared such passages . just before he said , if he press'd him , and in the next page , if he alledged this ; but here he takes it for granted , that i took this course , and then saith , but was this solid , &c. thus mr. wells is of and on , and knows not what to write : but then he goes on boldly on this presumption , adding within a few lines , and thus he was hurried in his mind , and suffered ( it is probable ) not a little by that blind zeal of yours , or scriptureless notion . it is probable i hope to none but mr. wells : and who but he would look upon what i did as acted with blind zeal , when i did not run before i was sent ; nor sought occasion , but was invited , and importuried , and then how could i do less out of respect to my office , as a minister of jesus christ ? i went not with a design to make a proselyte ( as mr. wells hints , p. 10. saying , you could not prosclyte him ) yet if mr. wells's friends had not been with him presently after me , 't is probable my advice might have done more good ; but now it is in vain to guess at it 〈◊〉 for if i did him any good ; it seems they quickly marr'd it . if that salve of sprinkling in his infancy were applied to him for his spiritual sore , it might very well distract him . what if it were not applied ? then here is just nothing said , a reply to no purpose . but what a dreadful consequence doth mr. wells draw from thence ( supposing it were so ) then it might very well distract him : a dreadful reflection indeed a terrible charge against infant baptism . for my part , i reflected only upon the unadvised carriage of some baptists , and their rash zeal to promote their opinion , and to make proselytes ; their indirect and evil practices ; their bold and bitter speeches ; but i should have been ashamed to have branded their doctrine thus where mr. wells's moderation is i know not ; it doth not appear in his reply . but i hope he doth not mean a perfect distraction , but only a little hurry of mind , and that his next words are exegetical , and lessen the sense , as it follows , and he n● suffer a little by such inconsiderate and blind zeal : let it b● so taken , even in the best sense ; for the other is very foul an● grose . and that the world may be sure to know who you mean , you repeat the name anabaptists , as you falsely put upon them , and say , wh● they rather chose to call themselves baptists . good mr. wells , how did you read this ? methinks you read as badly as you writ : how could you say i repeated the name anabaptists ? what , did you mistake atheists in the lines before for anabaptists ? for i never repeated this word : read anabaptist twice if you can ; and surely anabaptist and baptist are not one and the same name ; for you write your self a baptist , yet say i falsely put the name anabaptist upon you . but why falsely put upon you ? 't is the proper name of those of your opinion , though it may be you like it not ; and if we call you baptists it is a favour , which favour i was willing to shew you ( i mean those of your opinion ) but you acknowledge it not ; but are angry ; yea , if we call you not anabaptists , we do in a sort disown our own baptism and principles about that point : for we say ( and doubt not we are able to prove it ) that infants are truly baptized , as well as the adult : but you baptize such as were so baptized in infancy , and therefore are anabaptists , and the name truly agrees to you , which signifies rebaptizers . for my part i am not for long and hard names ( sesquipedalia verba ) or else i had us'd that name of ca●apaedobaptists ; but i judged the other both proper , and best known ; and i do not see why it should be a matter of offence to you to use it ; i am sure 't is of no great moment ; however i used these two promiscuously ( anabaptist and baptist ) not designing to reproach you by the name ( no nor any otherwise seeking occasision so to do , as you have too oft suggested ) but only to write most properly ; which is according to common speech , and as may be best understood . finis . reader , i would desire thee to be so candid , as to correct the faults thou maist find , and not to censure me too hardly for the ●ame ; for i could not be present at the press ; and i am sensible , that as i have suffered in this kind already , so i may still suffer , notwithstanding all the care and precaution i have used . books printed for john john lawrence , at the angel in the poultrey . mr. lorimer's apology for the ministers who subscribed only unto the stating of the truths and errors in mr. williams's book , in answer to mr. tr●●ls's letter to a minister in the country . 4 to . an answer of mr. giles firmin to mr. grantham , about infant baptism . 4 to . some remarks upon two anabaptist pamphlets . by giles firmin . 4 to . mr. firmin's review of richard davis his vindication . 4 to . a proposal to perform musick , in perfect and mathematical proportions . by tho. salmon , rector of mepsal in bedfordshire . approved by both the mathematick professors of the university of oxford ; with large remarks . by john wallis , p. d. 4 to . mr. stephens's sermon before the lord mayor and aldermen of london , at st. mary le bew. jan. 30. 1693. mr. shower's winter meditations : or , a sermon concerning frost , and snow , and winds , &c. and the wonders of god therein . 4 to . mr. slater's thanksgiving sermon , octob. 27. 1692. 4 to . — his sermons at the funerals of mr. john reynolds , and mr. fincher , ministers of the gospel . 4 to . the jesuites catechism . 4 to . dr. burton's discourses of purity , charity , repentance , and seeking first the kingdom of god. published with a preface , by dr. john tillotson , late archbishop of canterbury . 8 vo . remarks on a late discourse of william lord bishop of derry , concerning the inventions of men in the worship of god : also a defence of the said remarke against his lordship's admonition . by j. boyse . 8 vo . the works of the right honourable henry , late lord d●●amere , and earl of warington ; consisting in thirty two original manuscripts under his lordship 's own hand . 8 vo . bishop wilkins's discourses of the gift of prayer , and preaching ; the better much inlarged . by the bishop of norwich , and dr. williams . 8 vo . mr. samuel slater's earnest gall to family religion ; being the substance of eighteen sermons . 8 vo . mr. addy's stenographia : or , the art of short writing compleated , in a fa● more compendious way than any yet extant . 8 vo . the london dispensatory reduc'd to the practice of the london physicians : wherein are contained the medicines , both galencial and chymical , tha● are now in use : those out of use omitted ; and those in use , and not in the latin copy , here added . by john peachey of the colledge of physicians in london . 12 o. mr. hamond's sermon at mr. steel's funeral . 8 vo . history of the conquest of florida 8 vo . mr. a●kins's english g●ammar : or , the english tongue reduced to grammatical rules . compored for the use of english schools . 8 vo . mr. john s 〈…〉 r's discourse of temp●ing christ . 12 o. — his discourse of family religion , in three letters . 12 o. mr. daniel burgess's discourse of the death , rest , resurrection , and blessed portion of the saints . 12 o mr. george hamond's , and mr matthew parker's discourses of family worship . written at the request of the united ministers of london . 12 o. miscellana sacra : containing scriptural meditations , divine breathings , occasional reflections , and sacred poems 12 o. monro's iustitutio grammaticae . 8 vo . sir jonas more 's mathematical compendium . the third edition 12 o. mr. william scoffin's help to true spelling and reading : or , a very easie method for the teaching children , or elder persons , rightly to spell , and exactly to read english , &c. 8 vo . the triumphs of grace : or , the last words , and edifying death of the lady margart de la musse , a noble french lady , aged but sixteen years , in may 1681 12o . the map of man's misery : or , the poor man's pocket-pook : being a perpetual almanack of spiritual meditations : containing many useful instructions , meditations and prayers , &c 12o . man's whole duty , and god's wonderful intreaty of him thereunto . by mr. dan. burges . 12o . advice to parents and children . by mr. daniel burges 12o . mr. gibbons's sermon of justification 4 to . scala naturae : or , a treatise proving both from nature and scripture , the existence of good genii , or guardian angels . 12o . graaf de succo , pancreatico : or , a physical and anatomical treatise of the nature and office of the pancreatick juice . 8 vo . dr. packs praxis catholica : or , the countryman 's universal remedy : wherein is plainly and briefly laid down , the nature , matter , manner , place , and cure of most diseases incident to the body of man. 8vo . english military discipline : or , the way and method of exercising horse and foot , according to the practice of this present time : with a treatise of all sorts of arms , and engines of war , &c. 8 vo . orbis imperantis tabelle geographico-historico-genealogico-chronologiae , &c. curiously engraven on copper plates . 8 vo . clavi's grammatica : or , the ready way to the latine tongue : containing most plain demonstrations for the regular translating english into latin ; fitted to help such as begin to attain the latin tongue . by f. b. 8 vo . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a46634-e390 〈…〉 a plea for anti-pædobaptists, against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers, entituled, the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a public dispute at abergaveny in monmouth-shire sept. 5. 1653. betwixt john tombes, john cragg, and henry vaughan, touching infant-baptism. by john tombes, b.d. tombes, john, 1603?-1676. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a62869 of text r206989 in the english short title catalog (wing t1811). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 107 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 24 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a62869 wing t1811 estc r206989 99866067 99866067 118327 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a62869) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 118327) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 113:e738[7]) a plea for anti-pædobaptists, against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers, entituled, the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a public dispute at abergaveny in monmouth-shire sept. 5. 1653. betwixt john tombes, john cragg, and henry vaughan, touching infant-baptism. by john tombes, b.d. tombes, john, 1603?-1676. [2], 44 p. printed by henry hills, and are to be sold at his house at the sign of sir john old-castle in py-corner, london, : 1654. annotation on thomason copy: "may. 26". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng tombes, john, 1603?-1676 -early works to 1800. cragge, john, -m.a. -early works to 1800. vaughan, henry, 1617 or 18-1661 -early works to 1800. anabaptists anatomiz'd -controversial literature -early works to 1800. infant baptism -early works to 1800. anabaptists -england -early works to 1800. a62869 r206989 (wing t1811). civilwar no a plea for anti-pædobaptists, against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers, entituled, the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a pu tombes, john 1654 20141 8 50 0 0 0 0 29 c the rate of 29 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2000-00 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2001-07 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2001-07 tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread 2001-07 tcp staff (michigan) text and markup reviewed and edited 2001-11 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a plea for anti-paedobaptists , against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers , entituled , the anabaptists anatomiz'd and silenc'd in a publique dispute at abergaveny in monmouth-shire sept. 5. 1653. betwixt john tombes , john cragg , and henry vaughan , touching infant-baptism . by john tombes , b.d. job ii. 2 , 3. should not the multitude of words be answered ? and should a man full of talk be justified ? should thy lies ( or devices ) make men hold their peace ? and when thou mockest , shall no man make thee ashamed ? london , printed by henry hills , and are to be sold at his house at the sign of sir john old-castle in py-corner , 1654. a plea for anti-paedobaptists against the vanity and falshood of scribled papers . sect. i. the reason of this writing is rendred . there came newly to my hands a pamphlet , wherein the intitler speaks like a vain braggadochio , as if the book had ript up the anabaptists ( as he terms them ) and like a prelate had silenced them , though there was but one whom with any face it could be pretended that he was anatomized or silenced , who yet speaks and writes for the truth , which these opponents do endeavour to disgrace , and rejoiceth that he lives to find that these men have no other thing to charge him with than his contending for a reformation of that prophane abuse of infant-sprinkling , and that they have no other encouragement from him to persist in their paedobaptism , but a fond hope of his returning to that sinful practice . the libel hath a frontispice , which pretends to shew the manner of the anabaptists dipping , but most falsly , sith it represents it to the eyes of the beholders as if they held persons by the heels when they baptize them , which is otherwise than their practice . the pretended manner of laying on of hands , and washing of feet , is unknown to me , if they do use it , yet they have such likely proofs from heb. 6. 2. and our saviours practice and command john 13. as might have deterred the author of this frontispice from exposing the ordinance of baptism , and those other rites , to contempt , had he any reverence to holy things , and regard to chrisis appointment . but the frontispice of dr. featlies book , and this , with the epistles and other passages , do give occasion to intelligent persons to conceive that this sort of men do make but a sport of christs ordinance , and that they have little mind to search for , or receive truth , but to expose them that are for believers baptism , and against infant-sprinkling , to the contempt of light and profane wits , and to the hatred of the ignorant and superstitious common people . and i conceive that this book is published by men of that spirit , who seek to make odious the endeavoured reformation of ignorance , superstition , profanenesse , and ungodliness , which abounds in those parts , and to uphold those either loose or formal pretended ministers , who take upon them to teach , but do indeed , as elymas the sorcerer acts 13. pervert the right way of the lord . surely did they seek the truth in love , they would not so insult over tender consciences as they do , encourage the looser sort , and deter the enquiring souls from the wayes of christ , for my self , as i have found from others , so i deprehend in these men the same unrighteous spirit , in their reporting my answers , and publishing them in print , without my revising of them , though it were proposed , and as i remember yielded , by one , that in a private way , i should have his arguments sent to me in writing , & for the other after 2 copies of his sermon sent me , yet i wrote to know whether he would own them , nor did publish any thing though i had sent some animadversions on the notes i received , of which i was told one copy was shewed to mr. cragg himself , and not disowned by him . and i do account it a shameful practice which these men , and another before have used towards me , that after i have been drawn to a verbal extemporary dispute , and no common notary agreed on , yet my answers are published by them without ever allowing me the sight of them , that i might either own them or amend them , afore the printing and publishing them . but i see , faction so prevails with them , that like as if they were of the romanists minds , they allow themselves liberty to use any arts as pious frauds to bear down the truth of antipaedobaptism . and this they do with so much insolency as may stir up the inconsiderate to trample upon their antagonist , and create prejudice against the truth . which hath necessitated me in this hast to write this . sect. ii. a view of the epistles is taken . who the j. t. p. or j. w. is i know not . what the first epistle saith of austins rule , it is neither true , for then the observation of an easter , and sundry other superstitious rites should be from the apostles , nor if it were true , is it true of infant-sprinkling that the whole church held it , sprinkling being not used in sundry ages instead of baptism , and infant-baptism , as it is now used , opposed by tertullian , and gregory nazianzen , and only the popish doctrine ( disclaimed by mr. cragg ) of the necessity of baptizing infants to their inheriting heaven , taught by the writers called fathers . as false it is that the baptizing believers ( called by these anabaptism ) had its spring and rise from nicolas stork , and others there named , it being commanded by christ , practiced by the apostles , continued in the first ages without any infant-baptism , and when infants were baptized , it was very rarely , onely in case of danger of the neernesse of death to the infant , and when reformation of other popish abuses was sought , the reformation of this was sought with the first , some hundreds of years afore luther . as vain is the assignation of the causes of anabaptism ( which is indeed true baptism ) whereas the true cause is the shining forth of light from the scriptures , and other authors , not discerned formerly as now . the true reason why our books and practice are permitted is , because they have at least so much appearance of truth as is sufficient to make wise men to let them alone , lest they haply should fight against god . the epistlers reasons are but his own ignorant surmises . though disputes are useful , yet such unworthy artifices as i find in and after them are a just reason for me to wave them , especially with such men as i have met with . what the successe hath been of the disputes mentioned its not so proper to me to enquire . the publishing of that at bewdley in so unbrotherly manner , hath , i imagine , diverted many from the truth , who if they had not been willing to be deluded , had never been caught with such a cheat as is the mock-titled book , plain scripture proof for infant-baptism . the rest of the disputes have not gained ( that i hear ) any credit to paedobaptism , but on the contrary , among the intelligent . it is true i was importuned to visit some friends at abergaveny , and did preach there , and some of the things the letter mentions i spake , and do still avouch . the two men mentioned were unknown to me , i slighted neither , though being wearied with preaching i did forbear to speak much , and was willing to get into a dry house from the rain . i was willing to have conference with mr. vaughan , who seemed modest and intelligent . the other opponent i found before to be a man of talk , who could not blush . that which the second epistle writes of my being wounded , and vaunting , is meerly fabulous , and i think the like of the short time of conceiving the dispute and sermon . it displeaseth me not , that the business should be truly stated , which is the end of this writing , though it displease me that such unworthy tricks are used to deceive people , as those which appear in the publishing this disputation and sermon . i intend not to lengthen the businesse by insisting on the falsity of the reports of my answer : it is not improbable i might in five hours dispute with one who talked so fast as to give no time to consider of what he said , answer not so cleerly as i would , had i had the arguments to view and examine deliberately . i presume it will be sufficient , for cleering truth , if either i shew how my answers are misreported , or how they are to be amended . sect. iii. mr. vaughans dispute is answered . to begin with mr. vaughans dispute . had it been framed into a syllogism it had been thus . they that were admitted lawfully into the covenant of grace by circumcision , may be admitted into the covenant of grace by baptism ; but infants were admitted lawfully into the covenant of grace by circumcision ; therefore they may be lawfully admited into the covenant of grace by baptism . to which had it been thus formed i should have said . 1. that it is false that either by circumcision or baptism infants or other persons are admitted into the covenant of grace , yea paedobaptists themselves suppose they are in the covenant of grace before , and therefore they are baptized : nor doth mr. vaughan shew how persons may be in congruous sense said to be admitted into the covenant of grace . 2. if it were true , yet it is certain that infants of unbelievers were admitted by circumcision as well as infants of believers , and so his medium proves as well the baptizing of unbelievers infants taken into a believers house , as believers . but in the manner he framed his reason i denied the consequence . and when he urged , it must be either because the covenant of grace made with abraham and his seed , is not the same in substance , withthat which is now actually in force with believers & their children , or secondly because baptism succeedeth not in the room of circumcision , i did rightly say i could deny your division . for there is another reason , viz. because there is not the same command of baptizing infants as there was of circumcising them , and yet that the disputation might proceed , i denyed the consequence , for both those reasons . and to what was replyed i answered rightly , that the covenant now in force according to gal. 3. 14. was not to the natural seed of abraham , but the spiritual ; nor is it true , that all the children of abraham were circumcised , for the females were not , or that they that were circumcised were consequently admitted into the covenant . for even mr. vaughan presently tells us , that ishmael though circumcised belonged not to the promise . now what is it to be admitted into the covenant , but to be admitted to the promise or participation of the covenant ? what he replyed further , that the covenant gen. 17. 7. was made alike , in the same extent and latitude , promiscuously with all the seed of abraham , even the natural , is most palpably false . for none but the spiritual seed of abraham , by believing , as he did , have the promise of righteousness , which is the covenant of grace , and ishmael is expiesly excluded gen. 17. 19 , 20 , 21. and he grants himself , none but the children of isaac were children of the promise , nor were the jewes , who were broken off because of their own unbelief , romans 11. 20. comprehended in the covenant of grace . romans 9. 8. proves cleerly that the covenant made to abraham and his seed as it was a covenant of evangelical grace was not made to all his natural seed , and so not to any of his natural seed , because they were by natural generation of him , but because elect of god . and it is false which mr. vaughan saith , the children of isaac ( he should have said isaac , and after him jacob ) are not called children of the promise in regard of any peremptory election , or aesignation to faith and salvation . for the contrary is manifest from verses 11 , 12 , 13. nor is it any thing contrary to the absolute decree of reprobation , that paul lamented , desired and prayed for the israelites , but his lamentation doth rather prove it that they were rejected , and desires and prayers may be even for that which may not be , as when christ prayed to have the cup passe from him . his reasons why the children of isaac are called children of the promise , are not to his purpose but against him . for 1. he doth thereby tacitly imply that none but the children of isaac were children of the promise , and therefore none but they in the covenant of grace . 2. if the reasons of the children of isaac their being called children of the promise were the inheritance of canaan , and the descent of christ , then only jacob was a child of the promise , not esau , and so it remains , the covenant gen. 17. 7. was not made to all the circumcised , nor they by circumcision admitted into the covenant gen. 17. 3. after his explication , it is cleer that the covenant of grace made with abraham and his seed is not the same in substance with that which is now actually in force with believers and their children , contrary to what he said before . 4. after this doctrine none are now children of the promise , sith there are none that inherit canaan according to that promise , nor from whom christ descends , and then if the promise be the same with the covenant of grace , none are now admitted into the same covenant , and consequently none to be baptized , according to mr. vaughans reasoning . what he saith he might have added , that if none but the elect and faithful can be admitted into the covenant , there is no subject left for the ordinance of baptism . i deny it . it goes upon this mistake , that none are to be admitted but those that are admitted into the covenant of grace , and known to be so : whereas persons that are disciples and believers by profession at least , are to be admitted to baptism , and no other ordinarily , whether they be admitted into the covenant of grace , or not . nor are we to baptize upon a judgement of charity , of thinking no evil , for then we must baptize turks infants as well as christians , nor upon a faith in the seed , or the parents actual faith , but their own profession . it is not true , no not according to mr. vaughan's own grant , that they were admitted into the same covenant by circumcision , into which we are now admitted by baptism , for we are not admitted into that covenant which hath the promise of the inheriitng the land of canaan , and descent of christ from us , which he before acknowledged to be promised in the covenant , gen. 17. neither need we say , that the circumcised had the righteousness of faith inherently in themselves , or that of their parents imputed to them , or that circumcision was a false seal . for neither is it said rom. 4. 11. of any mans circumcision but abrahams in his own person , nor of his , that it was the seal of the righteousness of faith to any but a believer . this was my answer , not as mr. vaughan mistook me , that circumcision was a seal onely of abrahams own faith in particular . nor is there a word rom. 4. 13. gen. 177. acts 2. 39. to prove that the covenant or promise was the same , and alike , to abraham and his seed , and to us believers , and to our children . nor is it true that 1 cor. 7. 14. is meant of covenant holiness of children , nor doth he bring any proof that it is so . for that which he dictates , that there is certainly some special privilege set forth to the children of believers , accruing to them from believing parents , is false , the text ascribing nothing to the faith of the one parent , but to the conjugal relation . and for that which he saith , it was no news to tell them that they might have the lawfull use one of another , i say , though they might not doubt whether they might lawfully use one another when both were unbelievers , yet it is manifest the believer doubted whether it might be so still , and therefore the apostles telling them it might , was an apposite resolution of their doubt , whether it be to be called news or no : and their not doubting of the legitimation of their issue is the very reason from whence the apostle by an argument ad hominem infers , the continuance of their lawfull copulation . and what i said of the use of the words sanctified and holy , 1 tim. 4. 5. 1 thess 4 3 4 7. was right ; nor do i think mr. vaughan would have urged that text , as he doth , if he had read what i have written in the first part of my antipaedobaptism , in which is an ample disquisition of the meaning of that text , to which i refer mr. vaughan , and other readers , who shall be willing to search out the truth . what i said , that if baptism succeeded circumcision , and thence infant-baptism be deduced , female infant-baptism could not be thence inferred , for they were not circumcised , is manifest , nor is it pertinent which mr. vaughan brings to infringe it . for though females be granted to be in the covenant of circumcision , yet they were not circumcised , and if in the eys of all laws whatsoever women are but as ignoble creatures , and so not circumcised , this confirms what i allege , that by virtue of baptisms succession to circumcision their baptism cannot be inferred . what he thought to have told me about the proselites of righteousness , and the baptizing of their infants , i conceive i have considered and answered in the second part of my antipaedobaptism or full review , now in the press , in which the feebleness of dr. hammonds proof is shewed . it is neither true that col. 2. 11 , 12. is an explanation of what is meant by the circumcision of christ , in these words , being buried with him in baptism nor any thing said of the analogy between circumcision and baptism , which mr. vaughan saith is so evident in this place , nor if it were doth it prove that our baptism succeeds the jewish circumcision . and what he grants , that col. 2. 12. rom. 6. 4 , 5. immersion and emersion in baptism are alluded to , as the custom then of baptizing ; and that which he saith , that indeed it seemed to him that for some centuries of years , that baptism was practiced by plunging ; for sprinkling was brought first in use by occasion of the chinicks , taking what further is manifest , and not denied , that sprinkling is not baptizing but rantizing , it is manifest that in infant-sprinkling now in use there is a mockery , when the minister saith , i baptize thee , and yet doth not baptize but sprinkle or rantize . and it was truly said by me that it is a nullity , it being done neither on persons , nor in the manner christ appointed to be baptized , as the spaniards baptizing the americans was a meer nullity and mockery . not do i know why mr. vaughan should say , [ this concludes our selves and all our ancestours , even all in the western churches for fifteen hundred years , under damnation ] unless he imagine with the papists infant-baptism necessary to salvation . that which mr. vaughan saith , p. 13. of the churches power to alter any thing from the form of christs institution to be confessed by all divines , and that he is none that denies it , is not true , except he account none divines but the papists . for i know none but papists that do acknowledg that the church hath power to alter christs institution . nor in my practice do i acknowledg it . i plainly tell mr. vaughan i do use to administer the lords supper in the evening , and though . i do not say it was instituted by christ to be in the evening , yet because it is called the lords supper , and the apostle takes notice of the time , 1 cor. 11. 23 , &c. and the administring of it in the morning occasions many to think they must take it fasting , and not a few that they are first to receive christs body in the popish sense , i think it very requisite the lords supper be administred in the evening . the love-feasts i finde not appointed by christ , and therefore might be altered . but in requital of mr. vaughans advice to me , i advise him to take heed of that erroneous and dangerous tenet which avoucheth a power in the church to alter christs institution , which serves to justifie popish corruptions , and to condemn the practice of all the reformed churches . i fear to embroil the church of god : they do it who oppose the truth . i am willing to submit to the judgment of the church when they agree with christ , but to none but christ , in what he hath appointed . it is neither true that the practise of infant-baptism , much lese of infant-sprinkling , hath been fifteen hundred years : nor , if it were , is it so strange a thing , that god suffered such an error as that is . i thank mr. vaughan for his ingenuous grant , and his modest carriage , and with expressions of my pity of his being misled by the conceit of the churches power ( by which , what is meant is hard to say ) conceiving i have answered him sufficiently , i take my leave of him and pass on to mr. cragg . concerning whom the reader is to be premonished , that by reason of his fast speaking , and many words , i was often uncertain what to apply an answer to at the dispute . sect. iv. mr. cragg's dispute is examined . as for his preface i let it pass . his first euthymene ; pag. 16 : some infants may not be baptized , therefore some infants may be baptized , is so frivolous , that i neither did then , nor do now think it worth any thing but contempt . for if the reasoning were good , it must be resolved into this syllogism , all that may not be baptized may be baptized , some infants may not be baptized , ergo , some infants may be baptized , there being no other way according to logick rules to make it good . any man of common sense might see the foolery of that argument . for if it be good he might in like manner say , some infants may not have the lords supper , therefore some infants may ; some boys are not to be ordained bishops , therefore some are . i denied the consequence , and mr. cragg not sensible of his folly prints a syllogism , which shews he proved not what was to be proved , which when i would have rectified by shewing what he should have concluded , he run on so fast in his vain prattle , that the reader may easily perceive i had reason to say , what would the man say ? the next argument is concerning the essence of baptism , which he saith , belonged to infants ; therefore they may be baptized , and then insinuates me to have been driven to absurdities in denying that baptism is a relation , and austins definition of a sacrament . to which i answer , 1. this proposition the essence of baptism belongs to infants , may have two senses , 1. that the baptism of infants is true baptism , that is , is according to transcendental verity such as hath the nature of baptism , and in this sense i grant the proposition is true , and so it is true that an infants eating bread and drinking wine is true eating and drinking the lords supper , it hath the essence of it ; but this i did not imagine he meant , and therefore denied his minor , till his next syllogism shewed he meant it , and then i perceived i should have denied the major . but his quickness and multiplying words would not permit me to recall my self . 2. the other sense is this , the essence of baptism , that is , that which is of the essence to right administration of baptism belongs to infants , in which sense i denied it , nor doth his argument from the definition prove it , for it is all one as to argue , infant-baptism is baptism , therefore it is right baptism . as for the absurdities he imputes to me , i deny them to be absurdities . for i take baptism to be either an action or passion , though christian baptism have a relation superadded , and so in the use is a sign , and the genus of it , which is of the essence , i should make an action . as for the other absurdity , i do confess that the term sacrament being but a term invented by latine fathers may be laid aside , nor is there any common nature of sacraments expressed in scripture . and i confess i take austins definition , if it be his , that a sacrament is a visible sign of invisible grace , to be but imperfect , sith it may be applied to the descent of the holy ghost as a dove , christs washing of his disciples feet , a persons kneeling and holding up his hands to pray , the kissing of the bible , and many other actions which are not sacraments , i confess i was weary of these quirks , and imagining that he used them onely to weary me , and blunt my attention , and to make some oftentation of himself , i replied not to his vain talk , but called for scripture-proof . as for that which he saith , i denyed all that were church-members were to be baptized , and yet affirmed it in my sermon : in both i said true , the former being understood of invisible , the latter of visible church-members . in the argument pag. 24. those whom god did promise before the law , foretell under the law , actually receive into covenant under the gospel , those god did appoint church-members under the gospel . but , &c. ergo . had not mr. craggs quickness hindered me , i had shewed the vanity of the major , as well as denied the minor . for if he mean by [ church-members ] visible church-members , and by [ actually receiving into covenant ] understand such an actual receiving as is without any act of faith or profession of the persons received into covenant , as i conceive he doth , i deny the major . but i also denied the minor . in the next proof he changeth the term [ of actually receiving ] into [ being in covenant ] now there is a manifest difference between them , sith a person may be in covenant , that is , have a covenant made to him , who is not yet born , as isaak , gen. 17. 21. but he is not actually received into covenant till he be born , and by some acts of his own engageth himself to be gods : receiving importing an offering , which is to be done by profession . as for his proof from gen. 17. 7. i had many exceptions against it . first , that if it be understood of the natural seed of abraham the everlastingness of it was but for a time , and that time afore the gospel , as in the next verse , the possession of canaan is promised to be everlasting , and yet the jews dispossessed now of it . which mr. cragg grants , and therefore must needs grant that the promise verse 7. though it be termed everlasting , yet it is to be understood onely of a limited time , as in other passages , exod. 21. 6. & 12. 24 &c. if meant of the natural seed of abraham . nor is he resieved by saying , they shall have canaan again , for however the possession was not everlasting , that is , at all times , particularly not in gospel-times . as for his proof of the continuance of the gospel covenant unto the end of the world , to abraham and his seed , the very text he allegeth , gal. 3. 8. doth manifestly express the thing promised to be justification , and that of the heathen , and that through faith , that had not the man a face which could not blush , he would have been ashamed to have urged it to prove , that abrahams natural seed were promised to be in covenant under the gospel . and his next allegation is as vain , that because deut. 29. 10 , 11. the whole congregation of israel are said to stand before the lord with their little ones , to enter into covenant , therefore the covenant gen. 17. 7. is to continue to infant natural seed of abraham to the end of the worlds whereas the speech is onely of a transient fact , not of a command , much less of a promise of something perpetually future , and what is said of the little ones is as well said of wives , hewers of wood , and drawers of water , and therefore if thence be concluded a continuance of covenant to infants , a continuance of covenant to wives and servants will be concluded . his allegation of heb. 8. 6. is as vain , for he brings it to prove , that if infants were in covenant under the law , they are in covenant under the gospel , whereas the meliority of the covenant is not placed in the extent to the sort of persons , for then it should be extended to more sorts than the covenant of the law was , but to the meliority of the promises , which were of better things , or better terms , then the promises of the law , but not to any other than elect and true believers , and so not to infants as the natural seed of believers . and for that which he saith , this unchurcheth the one half of christendome , and leaves them no ordinary means of salvation , if he mean by christendome all that are commonly called christians , i grant it , if the infants be the one half of them , and their unchurching be in respect of visible church-membership , but count it no absurdity . nor do know what ordinary means of salvation he conceives they are left without except baptism , which i take not to be an ordinary means of salvation without faith , and therefore think it no inconvenience to say that infants are without ordinary means of salvation , which are the preaching the word , &c. yet are saved by the election of god , redemption of christ , and work of his spirit . what i said , that the covenant under the gospel was made onely with the spiritual seed of abraham , was right , and determined so rom. 4. 11 , 12 , 16. rom. 9. 7 , 8. gal. 3. 29. john 8. 39. &c. nor is it true because the partition wall is broken down , therefore there is the same covenant national to the natural seed of believers as was to abraham , but that therefore as the apostle speaks ephes. 3. 6. the gentiles ( to wit believing gentiles , rom. 1. 16. ) should be fellowheirs , and of the same body , and partakers of his promise in christ by the gospel . nor is it ture , that the gospel covenant is made with the whole visible church , as the gospel covenant is expressed , heb. 8. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. and if i denied the major pag. 29. in the first argument , i confess i was mistaken through inadvertency , whether by reason of mr. craggs fast speaking , or some humane infirmity , or some other occuirence now not remembred , i cannot tell . but i deny the minor understood of the gospel covenant , heb. 8. 10. and the whole visible church being taken without any synecdoche for every visible churchmember . but i perceive by mr. craggs words page 30. if the church in regard of outward administration of ordinances ( which is the question ) were only the elect , &c. that the terms church and covenant were so ambiguously used by him , that i knew not how to conceive of his meaning , and his fast speaking would not permit me deliberately to consider his words , and therefore no marvel i desired liberty to explain my self , and to enquire into mr. craggs meaning , it being impossible for me otherwise to answer appositely , and to make the disputation profitable for finding out truth . as for that which mr. cragg saith , that it was the question whether the church in regard of outward administration of ordinances were onely the elect , it doth untruly suggest as if i so conceived , who , though i hold the church invisible are the elect onely , and that the gospel covenant of grace , heb. 8. 10 , 11 , 12. is made to them only , yet have still granted that the church visible consists of others than elect persons , and that outward ordinances may lawfully be administred to them upon their profession of faith in christ . but mr. cragg by confounding these terms [ to be in covenant , to be subjects of baptism , &c. ] misleads unwary hearers and readers . the next text mr. cragg brought was isaiah 49. 22. whence he would prove that infants should be churchmembers under the gospel . to which my answer was at first ( though it was otherwise taken ) that it is a prophecy that the gentiles should bring back the jewes , not only infants but others , from captivity , which the words before verse 19 , 20 , 21. and after verse 24 , 25. do plainly evince ; and this is given as the meaning by the new annotations made by mr. gataker , who doth on verse 23. say , it was fulfilled in those persian potentates , cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , ahasuerus . nor is there in the contents of the chapter ( which mr. cragg without ground makes the judgement of the church of england ) any thing to the contrary , but the words , which are [ 18. the ample restauration of the church , 24. the powerfull deliverance out of the captivity ] do rather confirm this . if any people laughed at this , they shewed their ignorance , and mr. cragg shewed his heedlessness when he said , that it was an addition to the text that the gentiles should bring the lewes , when the very distinction of [ thy children ] from [ the gentiles ] shews it meant of the jewes , otherwise it should have been [ their children ] in the third person , not [ thine ] in the second ; nor can it be meant of gods children as his , for then it should be [ mine ] in the first person , for god speaks those words . though i deny not but the words may be accommodated to the times of the gospel , but not to mr. craggs purpose of bringing infants to baptism , which hath no colour from the text . which appears by considering mr. craggs answer to my questions put forth needfully to cleer the text . for 1. if by [ standard ] be meant [ baptism ] which the scripture never calls gods standard , and the bringing should be to baptism , then the sense should be that supreme magistrates as kings & and queens should bringinfants in their arms , and carrythem on shoulders to baptism , which no story ever mentions to have been done , and is too srivolous to be made the matter of that prophecy . 2. the terms [ nursing fathers , and nursing mothers ] shew it to be a metaphor , wch mr. cragg granting , though it follow not , that nothing could be gathered from it , yet it follows , that mr. craggs application , which is according to the proper sense of the words , is not right . what i said , that it was fulfilled in hesters time , i said rightly , and mr. gataker before me in those annotations of his which are taken for the most incomparably learned , and hester as a queen among the gentiles , might well be stiled a nursing mother to the jewes . i will not trouble my self to examine mr. craggs dictates , but refer the reader to the notes of mr. gataker . as for what i said , that though it should be understood of the times of the gospel , yet it might be meant of grown men perswaded by the preaching of the gospel , as junius in his annot. was true . nor doth the bringing in the bosome being a metaphor prove they were infants . and if so , the church is spoken to , and the children were both the gentiles children , and yet [ thy children ] that is the churches . and so there 's no interfering in my words . the next text was isaiah 65. 20. in reading which mr. cragg left out those words , nor an old man that hath not filled his daies , nor would read them , nor the words following , ver. 21 , 22. i perceived he meant nothing but fallacy , and yet he added impudence to it in accusing me as urging it to deceive the people , when his own course , in concealing what would have cleered the text , had a manifest shew of deceit , and mine of plain dealing . as for his interpretation , there shall be no more an infant of daies , that is , infants shall not be uncapable of the seal , it hath no proof but his dictate , and it is without all shew of probability , there being not a word of any such thing as ou●ward ordinances , but of peace , increase , possession , and long life , as the verses before and after shew . the like is to be said of his interpretation of the other part of the verse , the child shall dy an hundred years old , that is , as an hundred years old , or as well a churchmember as if he were a hundred years old , when the term [ as ] is added to the text . to which he replyed that i do put in [ as ] 1 cor. 10. 2. and rom. 11. 19. but this latter is false . i grant i do so interpret [ baptized 1 cor. 10. 2 ] because otherwise the proposition were not true , and the sense is plain according to this sense , were baptized , that is , their passage through the sea and under the cloud was to them as if they had been baptized , and so did grotius expound it , which is the same with that which others mean when they say , they were analogically baptized . but in isaiah 65. 20. there is no need of such an interpretation , and that i may use the words of mr. gataker annot. on isaiah 65. 20. the syntax is familiar , and as cleer as the day-light or sunshine : the child or youth ( that now is ) shall dy the son of an hundred years ; that is , shall be an hundred years old when he dyeth . nor is this contrary to the contents , which though they be intituled to the church of england , yet there is no canon or act of any synod which did ever make them so , and who ever framed them , yet i think it no disparagement to say that mr. gataker understood the text as well or better than he : and this text was rightly made by me answerable to zach. 8. 4. nor is there either absurdity or ●ntruth , or blasphomy in my interpretation : which might be shewed by transcribing mr. gatakers forementioned notes on isaiah 65. 17 , 19 , 25. were it not i am forced to be brief . what i said about dr. prideaux his use was true , that he would require the respondent afore he answered to read the text , and consider it , which is necessary in divinity disputes , however respondents be restrained in other disputes . and for my explosion at oxford it is a meer figment , and that neither dr. savage , nor the doctor of the chair , did avoid my argument by their answer is manifest enough from dr. savage his own recital of his answer in his printed book , and this had been shewed in print ere this but that the printer failed to print my answer in the fit time . the frivolous conceit of my fear of mr. craggs gunshot is foolish ; i do not count mr. craggs arguments to be of so much force as a squib . as for his argument from mat. 28. 19. i answered , that all nations or whole nations did not include every part , all nations being taken synecdochically for the disciples of all nations . as for his division i gave the genuine reason why infants are excepted from the precept of baptizing , because they are no disciples . nor was there any defect in logick when i did not reduce it to one of his members . for [ capable of baptism ] and [ disciples ] are not terms subordinate , but distinct , though without opposition . and though to be disciples made them capable , yet there is a difference between the terms . i presume mr. cragg thinks baptized persons already disciples , yet not capable of baptism . what he saith of me , that i found fault with him at rosse for translating {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} make disciples of all nations , i am as sure is his fiction , as that i spake any thing there to him . nor will , i think , any man believe i should do so , except he found me now crazed in my brain , that hath either read my examen par . 3. s. 12. or 13. or shall read that part of my review now in press , in which i often assert that translation , and largely answer objections to the contrary in the fifth , sixth , seventh , eighth , ninth , &c. of that book . in which book i shall at large answer all that mr. baxter hath said to prove infants disciples from acts 15. 10. as for what mr. cragg saith here , it is frivolous . for though v. 1. 5. there is mention of circumcision , yet not of circumcision as acted on infants , but as taught brethren , and when the apostles v. 6. did consider of the matter , they did not consider of circumcision as acted but as taught , and not only of circumcision , but also of imposing the whole law of moses as necessary , which was the putting the yoke v. 10. and it is ridiculous to conceive that those teachers mentioned verse 1. did attempt to do any thing to infants , and therefore it is a meer wrangling to contend that the disciples on whom they would have put the yoke , verse 10. were infants , contrary to the constant use of the term throughout all the new te●●ament some hundreds of time . as so : mr. craggs arguments from acts 2. 38 , 39. it is false that the apostles inference is as mr. cragg insinuated , unless his argument have four terms , that they may be baptized to whom is the promise . for the apostle expresseth a duty in the imperative mood , not a ●ight in the indicative or potential , it is [ be baptized ] not [ may be baptized ] as in mr. craggs conclusion . i excepted that those parents were not then believers , which mr. cragg co●●●●ied in saying , they were believers in fieri , though not perhaps in facto , which is all one as to say they were not yet believers , but in the way to it . as for his saying , they were believers by outward assent and disposition , though perhaps not by inward assent and habit . i reply 1. if they were by disposition , how were they not by inward assent ? 2. how doth he know they were believers by outward assent and not by inward ? doth he know they were hypocrites ? 3. what act did they shew which expressed outward assent to the acknowledgement of christ as their lord ? what mr. cragg saith he knows of me , and tells of a ministers rule , is a fault he chargeth me with as not pertaining to the dispute . what he saith , that acts 2. 38. repentance is not made a condition of being baptized , is in my apprehension manifestly false . for the requiring repentance as first to be done , and then baptism to be annexed doth make it a condition of baptism , as when it is said , believe and thou shalt be saved , belief is made a condition of salvation . his talk about incompleat repentance , because they were pricked in their hearts , as a sufficient qualification for baptism , doth make the apostles speech as idle , which requires that which they had already , if mr. cragg say true ; but who will believe mr. cragg that the apostle required no more to baptism but an incompleat repentance or pricking the heart , v. 38. which it is said they had before ? or that he took that as a sufficient qualification for baptism , and yet required more as previous to it ? or who will believe him that the 3000. jewes were baptized upon an incompleat repentance , when the text expressely saith , then they that gladly received the word were baptized ? or that there was no new act of peter , but a recapitulation of the heads of his sermon that he preached to them before they were pricked in conscience , or were exhorted to be baptized , when the text saith , with many other words he testified and exhorted ? or that there was any , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , putting that as done after , which was done before , when the text doth so expresly note the order of time , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which our translatours render [ then ] and if it be rendred [ therefore ] it proves that which was done v. 41. to be consequent on that which was done before ver. 40. to the argument , to whom the promise of grace belonged , to them baptism belongs also : but the promise of grace belongs to believers and their children . ergo . to this i answered out of the text , when they are called , or are believers , not before , it neither belongs to fathers nor children without calling . to this mr. cragg replyed , 1. that the verb is in the indicative present tense , which implies , it is to them for the present , as well to your children as to you . 2. the opposition is between them and their children as near , to distinguish them as to whom the promise was at present from them to whom it was afar of , that is in the future , but all this is frivolous . for 1. the verb is in the indicative mood when it is said , the promise is to those that are afar off , as well as when it is said , the promise is to you and your children . 2. their being afar off is not in respect of time , but of place or dwelling , and the meaning is , they that are in the dispersion as it is called james 1. 1. or if it were meant in the sense that it is used ephe. 2. 15. ( not romans 2. 15. as mr. cragg miscites ) yet they are said to be afar off in respect of gods favour , or their affection to him , not in respect of time . lastly , it is frequent , even in speeches like this , to put the indicative mood present tense , by an enallage of tense , for the future , as matth. 5. 10 ; 12. i added , that by [ children ] is no necessity to understand infants , yet mr. cragg contrary to the common use , as ephe. 6. 4. col. 3. 20. would have [ children ] restrained to infants . 1. because of the notation of the word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to bring forth , which i think he saith falsly is given sometimes to children in the womb , but if it be , then it overthrowes his notation , for then {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is not from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to bring forth , for a child in the womb is not yet brought forth . but how doth it appear that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifies properly a young child ? or that child is analogum to old and young ? i had hitherto thought child and parent had been relatives , and that child signifies as well an elder as a younger . to that of the verb of the present tense answer is before how doth mr. cragg prove that their children they had were young children ? it is vainly supposed that the promise is to them & their children , as the jews children were in covenant with their parents . the text makes it to belong neither to parents nor children , but those that god cals ? does mr. cragg think that the unbelieving jews had the promise ? and yet they were in covenant in his sense before , even the whole nation ? or doth he think that christs bloud was not avenged on them ? if it were , how was the remedy as large as the disease ? next mr. cragg argues thus , they that are holy with a covenant-holiness are capable of the outward visible part of blessing : but infants of believers are holy with a covenant-holiness ; therefore they are capable of the outward and visible part . of which syllogism i might have denied the major , there being a covenant-holiness according to election , which doth not always instate the person in that which he calls the outward visible part of the blessing , by which he means title to baptism . but i denied the minor , understanding it of the outward covenant-holiness as they call it , which i truly said , is gibberish , and however vossius , bullinger ( for grotius i think means otherwise ) conceive of it , or the assembly , yet it is a meer mistake , and that holiness of children which is mentioned 1 cor. 7. 14. is truly said by me to be onely matrimonial holiness , or legitimation . and his argument out of mr. baxter i justly retorted , that in six hundred times in which holy is used in scripture , in none of them it is found for outward covenant-holiness intituling to baptism : which is a right way of answering , though it be called indirect by the logicians . and as for that he replies that rom. 11. 16. i confessed at ross covenant-holiness is meant , i grant it , but not outward covenant-holiness intituling to baptism , but that real saving holiness which is according to the election of grace , according to which iews elected shall hereafter be graffed in again . i said , ezra 9. 2. holy seed is all one with a legitimate seed according to the law of moses . against this it is objected , that then the meaning should be , the holy seed , that is the lawfully begotten iews , have mingled themselves with the seed of these lands , that is the bastards of those lands but i deny this consequence . the sense is this , the holy seed , that is , those who were descended by lawfull generation of allowed women , these have taken to themselves of the daughters of the nations whom god forbad them to marry , which is plain out of the vers 1 , 2. so that the people of the land with whom they mingled themselves , are not considered as illegitimate in there birth , but as not allowed to the israelites , and yet the holy seed is that seed which by a right generation according to moses law was legitimate . as for what he saith , that iepthe was a saint and yet a bastard , it is true , he was holy in one respect as borne from above , yet unholy by naturall birth . and whereas he saith , moses had childeren by an ethiopian woman , and yet not unholy , i grant it : for the ethiopian woman was not forbidden : nor were rahab though a canaanitess , nor ruth a moabitess when they joyned themselves to the god of israel prohibited , or there children illegitimate : yet this is not the same with covenant-holiness , intituling to church-ordinances , but legitimation intituling to be reckoned in the genealogy and inheritance of israel . the last argument mr cragg used was this , they that christ took up in his arms , blessed , said , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive them , are holy with a covenant-holiness ; but christ lock up little children into his arms , blessed them , said , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive them : therefore little children are holy with a covenant-holiness . in this argument i denied the minor , after some debate about the way of forming of it , in which i imagined that fallacy i do not now upon fight deprehend , & particularly i denied , that christ pronounced a curse upon those that despised and would not receive them . then he alleged mat. 18. 2. whence he argued , they to whom belongs the kingdom of heaven are holy & in covenant : but to little children belongs the kingdom of heaven ; therefore little children are holy and in covenant . in which argument any reader may perceive he proved not what i denied , that christ pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive little children or infants , and yet that text he alleged did not say of little children , that to them belongs the kingdom of heaven , but those that were not to be offended , v. 6. despised , v. 10. were to be received in christs name , v. 5. were not little children in age , but little ones in spirit , which appeared in that they are said to be believers , v. 6. and to be converted , and become as little children . to which , as the relator himself sets it down , mr. cragg said , the meaning is not , that the little children are converted , which is a grant of what i alleged , that the little ones not to be offended , despised , but received , were not little children in age , but affection of humility . mr. cragg added , but it hath relation to the desciples in the first verse , who must be converted from their actual sins , and become as little children which have no actual sin . at which words it is true , i said , and that justly , o how unhappy are the people that are seduced with these toys , are you not ashamed ? to which he replied , and it seems is not ashamed that it is printed , i see nothing worthy of shame : whereas if this speech of his were true , then this is a truth , except men be converted from their actual sins , and become as little children , which have no actual sin , they shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven : for this is the meaning of christs words , matth. 18. 3. according to mr. craggs interpretation , which whosoever believes must of necessity despair of heaven , sith as james saith , chap. 3. 2. in many things we offend all : and john 1. epist. chap. 1. ver. 8. if we say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves , and the truth is not in us . that which mr. cragg added , that the disciples were believers which are meant matth. 18. 6. and not the children , and yet saith , his argument remains unanswered , hath more of impudence in it . for his argument being that christ pronounced a curse on them that despised and received not little ones in age , and yet confessing that this was meant not of little ones in age , but disciples , believers in him , it is the heighth of impudency to say his argument is unanswered , when his own confession answerd it . justly here , after five hours time , having promised but one , did i breakoff , and having had experience of mr. craggs meet cavilling at rosse and abergaveny , dwelling many miles from that town , and finding nothing in him , and those other paedobaptists i have answered , but a spirit of wrangling , i yielded not to any other dispute , nor shall for time to come , being now sufficiently taught by experience what dealing i am like to have , yield to such disputes . as for that which mr. cragg saith , he was hurried to that extemporal discourse through importunity , i do not believe it , being advertised before , that if i came to abergaveny he would oppose me . that the speech of him that said i answered nothing , was the speech of an impudent , brazen-faced fellow , i think any will judge who reads this my writing . for mr. baxter , whatever his worth be , yet how justly i might say ( though the words set down were not used as the relator expresseth them ) that i have answered all he saith against me , will appear in the review of the dispute between him and me , and others , of which part of it is printed , part in the press , and the rest ( if the lord permit ) shall not be slackned . mr. craggs arguments from john 3. 5. romans 11. and other places , if they be not in his sermon ( to the examining of which i now hasten ) yet are they in other books answered by me : i shall take some view of his sermon on which i had made some animadversions before , according to the imperfect copy i had then , and sent them to a ergaveny , but have them not now by me in london , yet however in this straight of time i think it necessary to write thus much . sect. v. mr. craggs sermon is examined . first he saith [ and is baptized ] pag. 72. to be a conditional qualification , and yet in the dispute he denyed that repentance is a condition of baptism acts 2. 38. his observation out of dr. buckeridge p. 73. is frivolous , for the apostle 1 cor. 12. 28. saith as well of apostles as of ordinary pastors and teachers , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} he for them , or , if he will , fixed them . but it seems mr. cragg hath a special tooth at itinerants , though his relator claw mr. cr. and mr. w. but what he saith , that it is too strict an interpretation to expound mark 16. 15. of men of age and understanding , excluding children , shews he little considers what he saith . for if it be so , then christ , commandeth the apostles to preach the gospel to infants , and sith mr. cragg is bound to do so , he sheweth that he sins against his own light , if he do not so . but how foolish it would be for him to attempt it , his own words shew , when he saith , infants are not capable to be taught of men . and when he saith , that infants only in actu primo are capable of the first seeds of understanding , of profession of faith , i would know , in what sense they are sensible of the benefit they have by christ . and whereas he grants , that baptism is necessary by necessi●y of precept if conveniently it may be had , it is all i assested in my sermen , when i said all that would be saved must be baptized after profession . if austin were a hard father to infants for holding they must be baptized or not see the kingdom of god , then mr. cragg cannot gather from john 3. 5. infants baptism . from mark 16. 16. is rightly gathered that believing is to be before baptism , and yet from mark 1. 4. it is not rightly gathered that we must be baptized , before we can hear the word preached or repent ; for the text doth not express that john baptized afore he preached , but recites these two as connexed , yet the latter is put first , not because first done , but because he was to set down more amply what he preached . though we cannot know that the person to be baptized hath a saving faith , yet a saving faith is the rule of baptism to the person baptized , he should not undertake that ordinance without a saving faith ; and in respect of the baptizer , so far as he can discern , he should require a saving faith of those he baptizeth . dipping over head , or baptizing over head , after profession of faith , is no invention of man , but the command of christ , practice of the apostles , and their successors for many ages , and infant-baptism was opposed many ages afore john of leyden , who though he were otherwise not to be justified , yet i do not remember that any hath written he ever confessed that he had that doctrine from satan . but mr. cragg saith , baptizing is in greek any washing whether by dipping or sprinkling . and he cites ravanel who hath made a dictionary according to the present use of terms . but he shews not out of any of the pillars , as he calls them , of the greek tongue , that baptizing in greek ever signifies to sprinkle . he confesses that casaubon in his notes on matth. 3. 6. distinguisheth between baptizing and rantizing or sprinkling , but saith , the whole state of the question is determined against me , because he addes , that their judgement is deservedly long since exploded , and trampled down , that would have baptizing to be by dipping , seeing the force and efficacy of this mystery consists not in that . but 1. by mr. craggs leave the question is plainly determined for me by casaubon , when he distinguisheth between baptizing and sprinkling , for that is the question , not wherein the efficacy and force of the mystery consists . 2. though casaubon were a very learned man , yet this speech of his is not right . for we are to observe what christ appoints , though the efficacy and force of the mystery of sacrament consist not in it , as we are to break bread , not take a wafer-cake down whole , drink wine in the lords supper , because of the institution , though the force and efficacy of the mystery consist not in it . mr. craggs speeches out of aquinas and dominicus à sato , are of no weight with them who know who those doctors were , to wit , papists , and very unskilful in the greek language . it is as vain which mr. cragg saith the israelites were baptized when their feet did but touch the water , for the text saith exo. 14. 29. they walked upon dry land in the middest of the sea , and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand and on their left , and therefore their feet did not so much as touch the water , much less were they sprinkled with it . and if the israelites were baptized in the cloud , and yet no water upon them , then the text 1cor . 10. 2. doth not prove baptizing to be by sprinkling , but proves plainly that as hugo grotius said they were baptized , that is , they were as if they had been baptized , or as other , they were analogically baptized , that is in proportion , or likeness , not formally , that is according to what is meant by that term . it is without proof , yea false which mr. cragg saith , where is mention●●●●●● in the gospel of washing themselves , of cups , of vessels , of tables , this cannot be meant of plunging in water , so often , but rinsing . for water was not so scarce but that they might do it by dipping as well as sprinkling . he might have seen ainsworth on levit. 11. 32. who out of the hebrew canons tells us , all that are unclean , whether men or vessels , are not cleansed , but by dipping ( or baptizing ) in water : and wheresoever the law speaketh of washing a mans flesh , or washing of clothes for uncleanness , it is not but by dipping the whole body therein . me thinks mr. cragg should allow anabaptists to make consequences though they allow not his . and that john baptists and philips going down into the water , proves something me thinks mr. cragg should not deny , sith it cannot reasonably be imagined they should go down , not to the water , as mr. cragg would have it , but into the water , whereas for baptizing a person a man might easily have fetched or taken water out of any spring to baptize with , if it had been so to be done by sprinkling , and not by dipping . but if he please to see a book intituled of baptism , written by an eminent man in the state , he might see many of the prime writers , even leading protestants , gathering dipping thence , as used then in baptizing . the like they do from john 3. 23. of which whatever geographer or traveller saith , enon ( where john baptized ) was a little brook that one may stride over scarce knee deep , and therefore not capable of dipping ( which doth not follow ) deserves not to be believed in this . out of rom. 64 , we do not press a necessity of dipping , because of the resemblance , but from the resemblance alluded to shew the use then , ingenuously confessed by mr. vaugban , and therefore should be the use still . nor doth it follow , we must ly● three daies and nights in water , the resemblance of christs burial is to be continued though not the duration . whatever other resemblance there may be of our burial with christ , yet we are to follow the institution and practice set down in scripture , from which he that swerves ( as sprinkless do ) do sin against christs command , whatever any divines or assemblies of men say to the contrary . it is well mr. cragg confesseth , that if he were to baptize converted turks or pagans of ripe age he might baptize them by dipping : it shews that it is only for infants sake that the institution of christ is altered , and so one corruption hath brought in another . what he addes , provided their garments were not first baptized or washed , intimates he would have them naked , which mr. baxter would conclude to be against the sixth and seventh command , and he may do well to school mr. cragg for it . his reason is as foolish , though the garments be baptized in water , yet are not baptized with that use that the person is , but by accident , nor baptized as bells to drive away devils , nor is by baptizing the garment any worship done to it , as the church of rome doth to the image : for then the baptizing the body should be worshipping it , the garments and body are not worshipped at all by baptizing , and therefore foolishly is it compared to romish superstition and idolatry . he that affirms that baptizing without dipping is not lawful , that it is will-worship , that the sprinkling used is a nullity , that notwithstanding such pretended baptism , yet baptism remains a duty , speaks but truth . the decree of the senate of zurick was an unrighteous decree , which , whatever state follows , it will draw the guilt of murdering innocent persons on it , and mr. cragg by reciting it with seeming approbation , doth make it probable that he is a bloody-minded man , who would rejoice to see innocent men , who out of tenderresse of conscience follow the plain rule of christ , so put to death : which it s not unlikely to be the aim of his , or his complices printing this book against those he calls anabaptists , that he might stir up either magistrates or furious common people against them . mr. cragg saith , he hath resolved the former doubt , that baptizing is not dipping , and yet page 81. the authors he cites , and by citing approves , do all make dipping or dying one of the first of its significations . now he undertakes to prove that infants may , nay ought to be baptized . and he begins as an advocate for infants with this childish preface , that those poor souls cannot speak for themselves , as if in speaking for their baptism he spake for them , when he doth thereby rather speak for that which is to their hurt , and calls them poor souls , whom before he called saints . there is more in his pittyfull preface , he supposeth , if the apostles had been asked , why they did not put down infant-baptism in plainer terms , they would have answered , that they thought none would have denyed it . and i suppose they would have answered , that they thought none would have affirmed it , being quite against christs appointment , and their practice , who had then no such custome , nor the churches of god . the rest , as it is taken from mr. baxter , so it is answered in the answer to him now in the press sect. 3. le ts view mr. craggs arguments . his first is , those that are in covenant with god ought to have the seal of the covenant which is baptism ; but infants of believing parents are in covenant with god ; ergo . he saith , the former proposition is firm by the confession of all diviues , even our adversaries , and cites five , but not where they say it , nor is any one his adversary in this point . it is true ferus was a popish frier , though more ingenuous than most of them . but doth mr. cragg think we must take that for true , which protestants and papists do avow without any proof from scripture ? if so , then let us lay aside the scripture , and read their books . but he might know , and t is likely did know , that i ( though i will not take on me the name of a divine ) yet have denyed , yea and proved his former proposition to be false exam. par . 3. sect. 1. letter to mr. bayly sect. 3. anti-pae lob . or full review first part sect. 5. which shall be fully vindicated ( god assisting ) in the third part . yea were his arguing good , it would prove infants were wronged because they had not the communion . for i can as well from his own medium prove that they are to have it , as he baptism . the minor he takes on him to prove from genesis 17. 7. but there is not a word of infants of believing parents . but to prove it he ci es cornelius à lapide , a jesuit , for him , and yet had he not falsly translated his words , the words would have appeared to be against him . for whereas he renders them in , the spiritual seed to the faithful ( which mars his sense ) it is , in the spiritual seed the faithful . so likewise gal. 3. 8. though there be not the term abrahams seed , yet it is directly against him , for it asserts justification to the believing gentiles onely from abrahams promise , not a promise to them and their seed . i deny not but that isaac was in covenant with god , that is , a child of the promise , not onely when he was but eight days old , but also afore the seventh , yea afore he was born ; but when he saith , he had the seal ( meaning circumcision ) by virtue of the lamb to be slain , it is strange divinity to me , who never heard or read that any person was circumcised by virtue of christs death , but by reason of gods command . and that which he saith , much more the children of believing parents by virtue of the lamb that is already slain , which seems to intimate , that circumcision is due to them much more , and that by virtue of christs death , is a foppery like to the authors ingeny . he saith , deut. 29. 11. when all the people stood in covenant before the lord , their little ones are mentioned amongst the rest . and are not their wives , and servants , hewers of wood , and drawers of water ? are all these in covenant with god ? how doth he prove they were believers infants ? the words v. 4. seem to make to the contrary . it is no shift but a manifest truth , that those , acts 2. 38 , 39. to whom peter said , the promise is to you and your childdren , were not then believers in christ , when the words were spoken to them . for , 1. the apostle exhorts to repentance , therefore they had not yet repented , and so were not believers . mr. cragg himself , pag. 78. in this sermon saith , repentance is a fruit and effect of faith , therefore according to him , not before it . and in the dispute , pag. 52. he made them believers in fieri , with an incompleat repentance , though perhaps not believers in facto , 2 . v . 40. he exhorted them with more words , and then v. 41. some of them gladly received the word , and were believers . yet peter said to them before they were believers , the promise is to you and your children , nor is there a word in the text that makes it clear , that as soon as they were believers their children were in covenant with them , and to be baptized . his second argument is , such as were circumcised under the law may be baptized under the gospels : but infants of believers were circumcised under the law ; therefore they may be baptized under the gospel . he cites whitaker saying , all the anabaptists shall not be able to resist this argument . i answer , notwithstanding so learned a mans conceit , it hath not the force of a feather so as to need resistance . to it i answer , 1. indirectly by retortion . such as were circumcised under the law may be baptized under the gospel : but infants of unbelievers , as the males bought with abrahams money of the stranger , not of his seed , gen. 17 , 12 , 13 , 23 , 27. persons out of covenant as ishmael , gen. 17 , 19 , 21 , 25. were circumcised under the law : ergo . if the one be irresistible so is other . 2. directly , by denying the major if it be universal ; if not , the syllogism is naught , concluding from particulars . his proofs are vain . that from austin is of no force , unless it be supposed , 1. that by circumcising under the law , and baptizing under the gospel , the grace of god is conferred , which is a popish conccit . circumcision did binde to the keeping of the law , but never that i finde is the grace of god said to be either physically or morally conferred by the circumcision of each person rightly circumcised . 2. it supposeth , if infants be not baptized , the grace of god is straiter in the new testament than in the old . but that is false . for the grace of god is as much without sacraments as with it . above two thousand years before abrham was circumcised there was neither circnmcision nor baptism of infants , nor any other sacrament instead thereof ; shall we say that gods grace was straiter before abrahams time than since ? as bad as the schoolmen were , who gave too much to sacraments , yet they held , that the grace of god is not tied to sacraments . that question from heb. 8. 6. how were it a better covenant , if all poor infants that were in covenant under the law were out of covenant under the gospel , runs upon these common mistakes , that to be circumcised or baptized is all one as to be in covenant ; all that were in covenant were to be circnmcised or baptized ; all that were not , were out of covenant ; that the reason of the circumcising or baptizing a person is his being in covenant , which are all false , as i have proved exam. part. 3. sect. 1. letter to mr. baily , sect. 3. antipaed . part. 1. sect. 5. and shall part. 3. in many sections , if god permit . and to the question i answer from the next words , heb. 8. 6. the new covenant is a better covenant because it is established on better promises , though it were imagined never a poor infant ( as he childishly speaks ) which yet i do dot conceive , were in covenant . the next from tit. 2. 11. supposeth , if infants be not to be baptized , the grace of god appears not to them , which is of no force , unless that popish conceit obtain , that by it , and not without it , gods grace appears to all . but this is false , and not in the text . irenaeus words are not that christ was a little one , that little ones might be baptized from his example , for then he would have been baptized in infancy , whereas he was not baptized till about thirty years of age . we need not deny christs redemption of infants , because we deny their baptism , there 's no such connexion between them . his saying of little ones that they were the first martyrs that suffered for christ , is false . for how were they martyrs who testified nothing concerning christ ? that of the collect in the common prayer book on innocents day , that they witnessed onely by dying is vain ; for dying without some other expression doth not witness : nor did they suffer for christ whom they knew not , but because of herods beastly rage . this speech of mr. cragg smels rank of the common prayer book superstition in keeping innocents day , which it seems mr. cragg yet retains ; but is nothing to the proof of his major , nor any thing hitherto alleged . that which he saith last , hath most shew of proof , that baptism came in place of circumcision , the apostle clears it , col. 2. 11 , 12. ye are circumcised with circumcision made without hands , how is that ? buried with him in baptism : but it is not true that he saith , ye are circumcised with circumcision made without hands , in that ye are buried with him in baptism : these are predicated of the same persons , and so were conjoyned , but yet not so as to express how that the former was done by the latter , no more than by that which follows , that therein they were raised by the faith of the operation of god who raised christ from the dead : yea it had been false , so expounded : for how could it be true that they were circumcised without hands , in that they were buried in baptism with hands ? nor if this were granted , were it true , that it is cleared by the apostle that baptism comes in the room of circumcision : for there is not a word to that end , yea the scope is to prove that we have all in christ without circumcision , as v. 10. &c. shew , and that christ came in the place of circumcision , and the rest of the jewish ceremonies , as v. 17. is expressed . and therefore the apostle asserts the contrary , that no rite but christ came in the room of circumcision . if any ask why is v. 12. added , i have answered formerly , and the answer is not gainsaid by m. marshall , that it is to shew how persons come to be in christ , and so to be compleat in him , which he usually ascribeth to faith and baptism , gal. 3. 26 , 27. rom. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. and they are put together , col. 2. 12. so that if baptism be conceived thence to succeed circumcision , faith also is said to succeed it : which is more agreeable to the expressions , gal. 3. 23 , 25. i add the circumcision mentioned col. 2. 11. is either circumcision made without hands , or christs personal circumcision , therefore if the placing of baptism after v. 12. prove its succession to circumcision , it proves onely its succession to that made without hands , which was not the ceremony commanded , gen. 17. or to christs circumcision , not to the common circumcision of others . yet were a succession granted , this proves not , it must be in baptism as in circumcision , without a like command , as i prove antipaed : part. 2. sect. 2 , 3. no more than because the ministers of the gospel succeed the priests of the law , doth it follow , the ministers children must be ministers , anointed , &c. as it was in the law . so that mr. craggs irresistible argument is as easily blown away as a feather . and i hardly imagine any anabaptist so called to be so weak but that he is able to answer it , by telling mr. cragg that his first proposition is false , unless there were the like command to baptize infants as there was to circumcise them . if the third argument arise thence , it hath its answer thence , that it is frivolous talk in mr. cragg to speak as if denying infants baptism were putting out of the covenant , disfranchizing , and circumcising , supposed being in covenant , was a seal of the covenant of grace . his proof that the gospel puts not infants out of the covenant is true of the elect infants , and the covenant of grace expressed in the gospel . and yet his proofs are silly . new born babes desire milk , little childeren are humble , and are proposed herein as paterns to us , therefore they are in covenant ; whereas this is as true of infidels children as of christians , and therefore proves the one in covenant as well the other , and both these acts of little childeren are onely natural , not virtuous , and so give not evidence of their being in covenant ; nor doth the gospel give them large commendations beyond them of riper years , making them the rule of our perfection : for there is neither commendation of them , 1 pet. 2. 2. nor matth. 18. 3. nor making them the rule of our perfection , any more than sheep and doves , matth. 10. 16. but onely those virtuous qualities , which are resembled by their natural qualities are propounded to us as our rule . his testimony out of bellarmine intimates that bellarmine said , there is no impediment to infants baptism , because the case is clear , as if bellarmine would not have said it , had the case not been clear , whereas it is more likely to be false than true , because bellarmine a jesuit saith it ; yea it is manifestly false ; for the institution being onely to baptize disciples , prohibits baptizing of infants , which are not such , but for want of being disciples uncapable of baptism . but mr. cragg in his fourth argument will prove infant-baptism commanded , matth. 28. 19. because nations are commanded to be baptized . to this i answered before in the dispute , and my answer is , and was , nations are not commanded to be baptized without any other circumscription , but disciples of the nations , mr. cragg confessed , pag. 48. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is , ye shall make disciples , and then baptizing is of disciples . his speech , infants are not uncapable of baptism , because they have not faith and repentance , because christ was baptized without repentance , is frivolous , for there is not the same end of christs baptism and ours , and therefore though repentance were not required of him , yet it is of us , and the want of it makes infants uncapable of baptism . it is false , that god requires no more of persons in covenant , and born of believing parents , to their baptism , but a meer objective power or receptability , as he cals it , as was in the world at its creation , or in the regeneration , which he new makes us . and it is meerly false , that upon any such account as he speaks of , many whole families were baptized , or that any infants were included . the very texts which speak of the baptizing of the housholds either there or elsewhere speak of their fearing god , acts 2. 2. that all the houseshould be saved by peters words , acts 11. 14. had repentance and the like gift with the apostles , v. 17 , 18. had the word spoken to them , acts 16. 32. believed , v. 34 , acts 18. 8. addicted themselves to the ministery of the saints , 1 cor. 16 , 15. which shew no infants were meant under the houshold , for they did none of these things . mr. cragg goes on argument 5. they that are capable of the kingdom and the blessing which is the greater , are capable of baptism which is the lesser : but infants are capable of the kingdom and the blessing which is the greater : therefore they are capable of baptism which is the lesser . to which i answer , the major is false : if it were true , it would follow infants are capable of the kingdom and the blessing , which is the greater , therefore they are capable of the lords supper , ordination to the ministery , church-discipline , which are the less . though into the kingdom of heaven infants be admitted by god who knows who are his without any visible expression , yet into the visible church persons are not admitted without visible testimony of their faith , of which sort were all added to the church acts 2. 47. not one of those texts mark 10. 13. to 17. mark 9. 14 , 36 , 37. mat. 18. 2 , 3 , 4. matth. 19. 13 , 14 , 15. luke 9. 14 15. luke 18. 15 , 16. severall , nor all joyntly prove , infants visible church-members . the kingdom of god , mark 10. 14. is not the visible church , for into it such as are not humble , as little children may enter , which our saviour denies , v. 15. but the same with the kingdom , v. 23 , 24 , 25. into which it is so hard and impossible for a rich man or one that trusts in riches to enter , which is called v. 17 , 30 eternal life . it is false , that christ saith , the angels of little ones in age see the face of his father which is in heaven ; but of little ones in spirit , who are converted and believe in christ , matth , 18. 3 , 6 , 10. for whose sake they are sent , heb. 1. 14. they are but paedebaptists dreams , that the three evangelists recorded christs blessing little ones to check antipaedobaptists , or to declare that which mr. cragg cals a precious truth , though it be a very ly , and may be gathered to be so even from the story . for sure if infants had been to be baptized , christ would have then appointed them to be baptized , and blamed his apostles for not doing it . and therefore mr. craggs questions are answered by questions . 1. doth christ take children in his arms . and would be have all put out of his visible church ? answ. doth christ no more but take them up in his arms , lay his hands on them , and bless them ? and shall we presume to do more without any warrant of his , even to admit them into his visible church by baptism ? 2. would he have us receive them in his name , and yet not receive them into his visible church , & c ? answ : where doth christ ever bid us receive little children in age ? where did he ever send them , that they might be received in his name ? must we make christs words to import that which we would in another censure as a spice of madnesse , when he hath told us plainly they are his apostles , and other preachers he hath sent whom we are to receive in his name mark 9. 41. luke 9. 48. though they are as mean and contemptible as a little child ? how should children be received but by providing nurses ? would christ have us provide nurses for little children ? our lord christ expresseth a cup of cold water to drink , as some part of the reception in his name mark 9. 41. is this a thing fit to entertain an infant with ? this is enough to answer mr. craggs frivolous questions . and in answer to the words of mr. baxter , who is the godly and reverend divine he means , i say for my part , seeing the will of christ is that i must walk by , and his word that i must be judged by , and he hath given so full a discovery of his will in this point , i will boldly adventure to follow his rule to baptize disciples professing faith , and had rather answer him upon his own incouragement for not admitting by baptism those he never appointed to be baptized , than to adventure upon the doing like uzzah upon mine own head that which doth prophane the ordinance of baptism , and corrupt the church of christ . mr. craggs sixt argument is ; infants are disciples ; therefore they may be baptized . the antecedent he would prove from acts 15. 10. in that it was circumcision which was the yoke , which he proves from ver. 5. but he confesseth it was not circumcision only , but the attendants , and that it is no shift , but a cleer truth , that it is not circumcision as acted on infants , but as taught , imposed on the consciences of believing gentiles , with the rest of moses his law , as necessary to salvation by some teachers ( which cannot be said of infants ) is so manifest from the text , that i dare boldly say , they that assert that by disciples acts 15. 10. are meant , do but wrangle against cleer light , and spit against the sun . that the text isai. 54. 13. is not meant of infants of believing parents , as such , but of such as having heard and learned of the father come to christ , is plain from those words of our saviour john 6. 45. alleged here by mr. cragg himself , as expounding the prophet . the seventh argument is , all that have faith may be baptized ; but some infants have faith ; therefore some infants may be baptized . but 1. the major is not true of faith onely in seed , or act secret , and not made known . 2. mr. cragg alters the conclusion , which should have been that all infants of believers may be baptized ; but then he durst not avouch the minor , that they all have saith , at least in semine the contrary being manifest from scripture and experience , he proves his minor . 1. from matth. 18. where he saith , christ expresly calls them believers . but christ calls not little children in age believers , ver. 6. it had been ridiculous to threaten so heavy a doom to the offending of little children in age , who are offended with none so much as nurses for dressing , or chiding them when they cry : but the apostles and other christian disciples are there meant . 2. they are said to receive the kingdome of god mark 10. that is , the grace of god , remission of sins , and life eternal ; now the kingdome is not received , but by faith in christ . but onely elect infants dying do receive the kingdom , either by faith in the seed , not in the act , or by faith in the act secret only , and yet are not to be baptized till they make profession , not are all or any children of believers , as theirs , elect . 3. saith mr. cragg , they please god , therefore christ blesseth them ; but without faith it is impossible to please god . answ. the like argument is urged by the remonstrants at the synod at dort , it is impossible to please god without faith , therefore election which supposeth pleasing of god presupposeth faith ; the answer is , that heb. 11. 6. the pleasing of god is meant of the works , as enoch pleased god walking with him , and so infants please not god , and therefore may be without faith , not of the persons , in which sense infants may please god , that is be beloved with a love of benevolence , though not of delight , without faith . 4. faith must be allowed them , or not salvation , for faith purifyeth the heart acts 15. 9. and no unclean thing shall enter into heaven . answ. faith in the seed is sufficient to make them clean , which is not denyed may be in infants , though neither isai. 65. 20. sayes any such thing , and austins words express nothing but his own conceit according to the language of his time , but faith in seed or act unknown doth not intitle to baptism . the eighth argument was answered before by denying the major and minor , and his calling those that expound 1 cor. 7. 14. of legitimation gross anabaptists doth but involve melancthon , camerarius , musculus , &c. in the same censure , and that it is no bastard , as dr. featley called it , but a genuine exposition is demonstrated at large in my anti-paedobaptism first part , and t is granted , that pagans children are holy in the apostles sense if lawfully begotten ; for the sanctifiedness of the yoke-fellow , and holiness of the children is not ascribed to the faith of the one parent , but to the conjugal relation between them . rom. 11. 16. the first fruits and root , are abraham , not every believer , the lump and branches are abrahams children by election and faith , not every believers , nor all abrahams natural children : and the holiness is meant of saving holiness , not meer outward visible holiness . the breaking off and grassing in rom. 11. 17. are meant of the invisible church , in which sense parents and children are not broken off or graffed in together . see my anti. paedobap . first part . nineth argument tells us of dangerous absurdities if infants should be out of covenant under the gospel . but this is not all one as to be baptized ; we may grant them to be in the covenant of grace , and yet not to be baptized , and to be baptized , and yet not in the covenant of grace . but let us view the absurdities . first , infants ( saith he ) would be losers by christs comming , and in a worse condition than the jewish infants were , they with the parents were admitted to the seal of the covenant , which was circumcision , and not parents with children to baptism . answ. 1. i rather think that by being not admitted to circumcision the condition of parents and children is the better by christs comming , sith as mr. cragg teacheth here page 100. circumcision is the yoke acts 15. 10. of which the apostle saith , neither we nor our fathers were able to bear it , and is so farr from being the seal of the covenant of grace , that ( they are mr. craggs own words ) circumcision was the seal or ordinance by which the jews were bound to observe the doctrine and the law , meaning of moses . 2. but were it imagined a pure evangelical privilege , yet sure it is not such a privilege , but parents and children did well without it , afore abrahams time , and all the females from abrahams daies till christs . i suppose what ever privilege it were , it was abundantly recompensed by christs comming without infant-baptism , except a meer empty title of visible church-membership , which yet will not stand them so much in stead , as to admit them to the lords supper , be such an inestimable treasure as is not recompensed with the glory of the gospel now exhibited to spiritual persons , in spiritual benefits by the spirit , instead of the carnall promises , ordinances , and church-state of the law . the second is answered already , though infants be not baptized , grace is larger under the gospel being extended to believers in all nations , then under the law to the israelites and some few proselytes . the third is a speech that hath neither truth , nor sobriety of expression , nor proof , it is but a bugbear to affright the ignorant people to make use of such as he is , and to make odious them that will not baptize infants , as counting them as vile as the children of turks , tartars , or canniballs , even as they make them odious that will not burie their dead , as not affording them christian burial ( though they are buried as christ was without a priest , ) but burying as dogs . but we know how to put a difference between believers and pagans children in regard of the love god bears to us , some promises he hath made to us concerning them , the hopefullnesse of them by reason of prayers , education , example , society , confirmed by many experiences that are comfortable , all which things we should be contented with and not complain for want of an imaginary privilege , which is indeed no privilege , but a dammage to our children . i for my part look upon the children of believers unsprinkled , as precious , and rather more hopeful than those that are . and i think mr. cragg , as hard a conceit as he hath of the anabaptists and their children , yet would he be ashamed to say as he doth here of them , that they are as vile as the children of turks , tartars , or cannibals . but that which he closeth with , sheweth he was minded to affright the poor ignorant people , as the popish priests did of old . fourthly ( saith he ) they would be without god , without christ , without hope in the world ; not the children of god , but would all be damned , for out of covenant and visible church ( ordinarily ) there is no salvation . answ. by covenant , he means doubtless no other than the outward covenant , which is not shewed to be any other than baptism , and indeed we do no otherwise put them out of the covenant than by denying them baptism ; which being presupposed , mr. craggs speech must needs imply , that denying baptism inferrs all this . which cannot be true without conceiving , that all that are unbaptized are without god , without christ , without hope in the world , not the children of god , but of the devil , will be all damned , have no salvation . which is not only more than what the epistler makes hainous in me , all that would be saved must be baptized after profession ( though it were understood by me onely of necessity of precept , which mr. cragg himself asserts to be imported mark 16. 16. ) but worse than austin sayes , whom mr. cragg himself called the hard father of infants , and saies went too far , worse than the papists themselves speak of the dying unbaptized . which shews that he preached this sermon with a bitter and furious spirit . his closing speech [ out of covenant and visible church ( ordinarily ) there is no salvation . ] if understood of the covenant of saving according to election , i grant , that neither ordinarily , nor extraordinarily is there salvation : if of the outward covenant ( as they call it ) that is , the outward administration of seals , it is certain there may be salvation , unless profane contempt or willfull neglect against conscience do hinder salvation . the speech , out of the church is no salvation , hath been interpreted by protestants of the invisible church . a person of years that believes , though he be joined to no particular visible church , if there be not prophane contempt , or wilful neglect against conscience , may be saved . but they that are only negatively or privatively out of the church visible , meerly for want of age to understand the faith , and ability to make profession , may ordinarily , if by it be meant frequently , constantly be saved , though they be not ordinarily saved as [ ordinarily ] notes ordinary means , preaching the word and profession of faith . his last argument is , that which hath continued since the apostles times with blessed success , must needs be lawful ; but infant-baptism hath continued with blessed success since the apostles times ; ergo . the minor is denyed . the blessed success he proves not . in my exercitation i shew many errours and corruptions which have come from it , not by accident in respect of some persons that imbraced it only , but even from the tendency of the practice it self . i may ruly say that paedobaptism hath been as cursed a root of corrupting the churches , and losing the gifts of the spirit conferred at first commonly at baptism by laying on of hands , as i think ( except some few ) any other corruption in the rites of christian religion . but mr. cragg thinks to draw it down from the apostles daies . he begins with words of dionysius areopagita , holy men have received a tradition of the fathers , which very words shew it was not dionysius areopagita mentioned acts 17. he would doubtless have said , i have received it from blessed paul , not have told what other holy men have received from the fathers , whom mr. cragg vainly conceives to be meant of the apostles . but the books that go under his name have been so often by so many learned men , papists and protestants proved to be meer counterfeits , that either it is much ignorance , or much impudence that this is produced as his . salmasius sundry times speaketh of them as certain , that the author of them was not till the fifth age . the apostolical constitutions appear by many observations of scultetus , and others , not to have been written by clement , but of much later time . irenaeus his words make nothing for mr. cragg , as he cites them , nor as they stand in his own works . origens speeches are in the latin books translated by ruffinus , into which many things were foisted by him , and these its probable were so as being so expresse against the pelagians , nor do i find he was ever alleged by austin , who gathered the most ancient testimonies he could for original sin and infant-baptism . therefore saith vossius in his theses of infant-baptism , we less care for origen , because they are not in greek . cyprians testimony is granted to be in the third century , and ambroses and austins , and the milevitan councils and innumerable more , but all upon the popish errours of giving grace , and the necessity to save a child from damnation . gregory nazianzen and tertullian before him disswade from it , except in case of danger of death in appearance near : out of which case the ancients did not baptize infants , and in that case the communion was given them : but otherwise they baptized not infants , no not of believing parents , till they came to years , and then they were first catechized in lent , and then solemnly baptized at easter and whitsuntide , as may be gathered even from the common prayer book in the rubrick before baptism . it is most false that all ages , all churches agree in infant-baptism . some churches never had it , some churches five hundred years ago of the most godly and learned that then were , did oppose it , and practice the baptism of believers only . if mr. fox , and others did account anabaptists hereticks , it was for other tenents than this . mr. baxter himself saith no sober divine did ever reckon the anabaptists as hereticks meerly for the errour of rebaptizing , plain scripture proof , &c. part 1. chap. 1. yet mr. cragg bespatters anti-paedobaptism thus , it robs the scripture of its truth , infants of their right , parents of their comforts , the church of its members , christ of his merits , god of his glory . sure he hath learned the art of him in the comaedian to calumniate boldly , imagining somewhat will be believed , though there be not a word true . but there is more of this venome behind ; that it is the mother of many other errours ; hence sprung the ranters , socinians , antitrinitarians , shakers , levellers , they that are above ordinances , antiscripturians . will any believe that from the tenet which doth so stifly maintain an ordinance should spring the errour of being above ordinances ? or that the errour of antiscripturians should spring from that tenet which doth so strictly insist on the scripture ? let mr. cragg shew any the least connexion between antipaedobaptism and the errours he names , and he saith something , else if only the persons , and not the tenet be guilty of these errours he doth but calumniate . he might with like reason say , the christian religion is the mother of many other errours ; hence sprung ebionites , cerinthians , nicolaitans , gnosticks , &c. such kind of criminations are most stinking and base slanders ; unworthy a sober minded man , much more a divine in a pulpit , speaking to many people who examine not but take all for true , which such rabbins talk with confidence . the like may i say of the judgements of god . those in germany were by war , the events that have happened in our daies should teach us to be sparing in our judging . mr. cottons speech was according to his prejudice . solomon eccles. 9. 1 , 2. christ luke 13. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. teach us more sobriety than so easily to pronounce of gods judgements . if we should judge of men and tenents by outward judgements , job had been condemned justly . one man had his house burned that did not sprinkle his child , thousands have had their houses burned who did , and perhaps upon occasion of that abuse , by means of provision for the feast . may not we as well say . god thereby judged against infant-sprinkling ? thousands have prospered after their refusing to baptize infants , thousands have fain into calamities after they have baptized them . may not we this way as well decide for antipaedobaptists as against them ? divines that maintain the scriptures to be their rule should not thus judge of what is true or false by gods dealing with mens persons , which is often upon secret reason , not discemable by us , but by his word which is our rule , and wherein he hath revealed his mind . the rest of mr. craggs speech is as vain . doth this benefit come to parents , and children by infant baptism , that god is not ashamed to be called their god , and the god of their seed after them , heb. 11. 16. what a ridiculous conceit is this ? the text saith , that through the faith of the persons it is , that god is not ashamed to be called their god , not their god , and the god of their seed , much less a word of infant-baptism , as if such a benefit came by it . all the benefit he talks of that comes to infants is either a meer empty title , or else it comes to infants as well without baptism as with it . the devils dealing if it be , as mr. cragg saith , makes it appear the faith is good into which the pretended baptism is , but not that the baptism is right . enough of this frothy , unconcocted sermon , calculated for the ignorant and superstitious common people , and the profane loose gentry , who mind not godliness in earnest , and for the blind teachers of those parts , who know not the gospel , but mind their own profits more than the understanding of the truth . from whom the lord deliver the dark parts of this land , and provide teachers for the people after his own heart , that it be not as now it is in too many parts , the blind lead the blind , and both fall into the ditch . finis . an equal ballance wherein the ministers and churches of the anabaptists (so called) are truly weighed and by a just and lawful tryal ... they are fully proved and clearly manifested to be neither ministers nor churches of jesus christ, but in very many particulars they appear in a great measure to differ from them ... : being an answer to a libel published by (or in the behalf of) thomas collier, entituled the hypocrisie and falshood of thomas salthouse discovered ... / written by robert wastfield. wastfield, robert, fl. 1647-1665. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a65230 of text r25195 in the english short title catalog (wing w1033). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 129 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 27 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a65230 wing w1033 estc r25195 08793245 ocm 08793245 41843 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a65230) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 41843) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1271:6) an equal ballance wherein the ministers and churches of the anabaptists (so called) are truly weighed and by a just and lawful tryal ... they are fully proved and clearly manifested to be neither ministers nor churches of jesus christ, but in very many particulars they appear in a great measure to differ from them ... : being an answer to a libel published by (or in the behalf of) thomas collier, entituled the hypocrisie and falshood of thomas salthouse discovered ... / written by robert wastfield. wastfield, robert, fl. 1647-1665. 52, [1] p. printed for thomas simmons, london : 1659. reproduction of original in the british library. eng anabaptists -great britain. a65230 r25195 (wing w1033). civilwar no an equal ballance: wherein the ministers and churches of the anabaptists (so called) are truly weighed: and by a just and lawful tryal (acco wastfield, robert 1659 24964 79 0 0 0 0 0 32 c the rate of 32 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-02 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-03 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2006-03 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an equal ballance , wherein the ministers and churches of of the anabaptists , ( so called ) are truly weighed , &c. although many are risen up in this age and generation , and are joined in confederacy to make war with the lamb and his followers , who hath both with tongue and pen set themselves to oppose , gain-say , and resist the truth , and to raise all manner of false reports and slanders which their wicked hearts can imagine to cast upon it , and upon those who in sincerity of heart walk in it , thereby to affright the ignorant , and deceive the simple , lest they should turn from their wickedness , and be converted , and be healed ; and so even shut the kingdom of heaven against men , neither entring in themselves , nor suffer those to go in that would ; yet amongst them all i have not observed any more desperately wicked , and notoriously impudent , then the forementioned author hath manifested himself in a sheet of paper , as one indeed past feeling , given up to a reprobate mind , as if his conscience were double seared , or as one that cannot blush vvhen he hath done vvickedly ; neither is it pleasant to me to meddle vvith such noysom stuff , or the foame of such an unclean spirit , vvho like the raging sea , casts up mire and dirt , even foaming out his ovvn shame ; but having considered the said paper , and finding it stuft vvith such notorious lyes , and abominable falshoods , and in particular , one most horrible false accusation , to vvhich i shall speak more particularly in its proper place , and knovving it meet that such a forger of lyes should not be hid , nor pass without rebuke , and also that the truth might be cleared from those false aspersions cast upon it ; and in love and tenderness towards them who are at present deceived by the lyes and by the lightness of those who usurp authority over them , by whom their hands are strengthened in wickedness , so that they cannot return from the evil of their wayes , that they might come to see the gross hypocrisie and palpable deceit of those by whom they are now led captive , and so come to be redeemed out of the snares of the devil , and come to hear the voice of the true shepherd , and particularly to discover to them the impudency and wickedness of the said author , who hath most maliciously ( with his venemous asp-poysoned tongue , struck at the innocent , and under lyes and falshoods hath endeavoured to hide and cover himself in the absence of thomas salthouse : for the truth's vindication i was c●nstrained to write something in answer to it ; and although the author hath so maliciously and wickedly slandered and reproached thomas salthouse and others , in his said paper , yet i shall not make it my work to vindicate persons , but truth , which is chiefly my aim and end in this undertaking ; and in clearing the truth from those false aspersions , reproaches , lyes and slanders , which the said author hath cast upon it , the innocency of those at whom in particular he strikes will not onely be clearly vindicated , but also his own folly and wickedness be fully manifested , who ( probably to hide himself from the light ) hath refufed to subscribe his name to his paper , which renders it in the esteem of all people of understanding , to be of no credit , and to be reputed as a slanderous libel . his main work in his paper ( wherein he hath so wickedly and impudently slandered and falsly accused the innocent ) seems to be a vindication of thomas collier ; and though he hath not named himself , yet by his work he hath manifested himself to be in the same nature with t. c. if not in the same person ; for whoever hath viewed the writings of t. c. especially those in which he hath set himself to resist and speak evil of the truth , and the right wayes of god , namely , his dialogue , his looking-glasse , ( so called ) his answer to t. s. his epistle , &c. compared with this sheet of paper , might almost conclude by the method which he follows , that this also is his work ; for impudency and lyes are the strength of his arguments , and his own affirmations offered for proof of his assertions , when it is but the same lye told over again , onely this last seems to come forth with more impudency then the former , as if he had now poured forth some of the very bottom and dregs of that wickedness of which the other was the froth and the scum . now the author having concealed his name , i could not direct a particular answer to him , and therefore ( by advice of some friends ) drew up this sollowing paper to make publike inquiry after him , and to that end caused it to be posted in several market towns in the county of somerset . forasmuch as there lately came to our view ae certain printed paper , entitul●d the hypocrisie and falshood of thomas salthouse discovered , a noted quaker , containing in it many ly●s and ●alse assertion● , and published in the vindication of thomas collier , as by the contents thereof appears . and whereas the author ●her●of being ( as we have just cause to think ) conscious of his own guilt in pu●lishing such lyes and falshoods , and to hide himself from the reproof of truth , and shame due to such a worker of darkness , hath refused to own it by subscribing his name : these are therefore to give notice , that if the author thereof hath not concealed his name for these or the like reasons , let him manifest the contrary by discovering his name to any one of the subscribers , that so a particular answer may be 〈…〉 , some of us being concerned therein particularly , and in the mean time there is no rational man hath ground to credit that which the author himself appears not to own . jasper batt , john collins , john dando , william beaton , robert wastfeild . but as yet the author hath not discovered his name to any one of us , and therefore i shall proceed to speak something in answer to his paper , and so let it go abroad to find out the unnamed author . and first he saith ( as the title of his paper ) the hypocrisie and falshood of t. s ▪ discovered , a noted quaker ; manifested in a pretended line of true judgement . to which i answer , thou hast plainly discovered thy self to be the hypocrite , though under falshood thou hast endeavoured to hide thy self ; and the truths asserted by t. s. stands over thee , and his judgement is according to truth , as will more evidently appear when the filth and dirt which thou hast endeavoured to cast upon it , is wiped away . and this is one of thy marks whereby thou art known to be an hypocrite , in that thou hast slandered and reproached persons and principles publikely in print , and then ( left thy wickedness should be discovered , & thy lyes and falshoods be turned upon thee ) like the thief or the murderer which are afraid of the light , thou hast endeavoured to hide thy self by refusing to subscribe thy name in token of owning thy work . thou sayest , the abominable hypocrisie and falshood manifested in t. s. his pretended line of true judgement , occasioned thee to let it lye for some time by thee , &c. i say , thou speakest great swelling words of vanity , thereby to allure those who live with thee in error , crying out of the hypocrisie & falshood of t. s. but is it not strange to hear one in whom abomination reigns , to cry out of abomination in others ? and to hear a hypocrite cry out of hyocrisie , and a lyar to cry out of falshood ? but by so doing , he that is indeed the notorious lyar , and the abominable hypocrite , may have hopes to pass undiscovered . thou sayest , yet for truth's sake , and for the sakes of poor souls , thou wilt give a very brief touch in a sheet of paper , &c. to which i say , it is not thy pretences will hide thee , the light hath discovered thee , and thy unclean spirit , and thy fruits doth manifest thee to all who have an eye open to see thee ; and though thou pretend a care for truth & poor souls , yet thou art found to be one of truth's greatest enemies , and one that labours to keep souls in blindness and ignorance ; and by this work of wickedness thou haft endeavoured to touch the lord 's annointed , and to harm his prophets , for which the lord will reprove thee in the day of account , which is near at hand . thou recitest some of t. s. his words in the title page of his book , where he saith , the exaltation of the spiritual man with his ordinances and administrations , above the man of sin , with the weak and unprofitable ordinances that doth not make the comers there unto perfect . which sound , wholsome words of his , thou goest about most wickedly to pervert , and his plain and honest intention most falsly and hypocritically to interpret , saying , the spiritual man must be the light within , their own fancy and imagination which they perswade all to follow ; and jesus christ crucified , raised and ascended , and made lord and christ , he must be the man of sin . truly if thou hadst not ( as it were ) a brow of brass , thou wouldst blush ▪ and even tremble to utter such blasphemous words as these ; didst thou never think to give an account for these ( with other thy hard ungodly ) speeches , which in the pride of thy heart thou hast uttered forth ? thou accusest t. s. in thy paper for hypocrisie and wretched perverting : now let all sober-minded people judge whether thou be not manifestly guilty of that evil which thou falsly chargest upon him : but because there is some words of truth mixed with thy unclean filthy language , though it comes out of a polluted vessel , i shall separate it from the rest , and when the jewel is taken out of the swine's snout , the remainder may be bundled up for the fire . thou saist , the spiritual man must be the light within : to which i say , the spiritual man is light , and the light of christ is spiritual , and the spiritual man is within , even the hidden man of the heart ; and he that knows not this spiritual man living in him , is not a member of the church of christ ▪ and he in whom the spiritual man lives , doth thereby mortifie the deeds of the flesh , and his mortal body comes to be quickened by the spirit which dwelleth in him , and hereby he is made a member of the church of christ , and no otherwise , and comes to partake of his ordinances , and knows his administrations and so comes to be exalted above the man of sin , and stands over all the beggarly rudiments , and traditional invented will-worships , set up in the imagination which doth not purifie the heart , nor purge the conscience from dead works , nor give victory over the world , and so makes not the comers thereunto , or practisers of them perfect , but perisheth with the using ; and this is not fancy nor imagination , but sound and wholesome doctrine ; according to the scripture of truth ; neither do we at any time perswade any to follow their own fancies & imaginations , as thou most wickedly and falsly chargest us , but it is christ the true light , the spiritual man , who leads out of darkness all that follow him , and from every vain imagination ; it is him alone that we exhort all men to obey and follow . and the reason that thou givest why jesus christ crucisied , raised , and ascended , &c. must be the man of sin , is , because ( thou sayest ) it is his ordinances you follow and plead for according to the scriptures . thou sayest , you own jesus christ crucified , and justification by faith in his blood , which faith purifies the heart , ( though you confess that abomination reigns in your souls , and that iniquity is apparently written on your fore-heads , and that you are drawing it with cords of vanity ) and baptism with water after believing , and church-fellowship in breaking of bread , and prayer , &c. and this thou sayest t. s. calls the ordinances of the man of sin , which is another most abominable falshood charged upon him ▪ when ? or where did he ever call justification by faith in the blood of christ , baptism , breaking of bread , and prayer , &c. which are ordinances of christ , the ordinances of the man of sin ? thou hast made a great outcry of the hypocrisie and falshood of t. s. doubling it over to , four times in thy title page , and yet before thou concludest the same page , how manifestly and publikely dost thou play the hypocrite with him , in drawing such a damnable conclusion from his words , and most wickedly and falsly to accuse him , saying , he calls the ordinances of christ ▪ the ordinances of the man of sin ; when at the utmost it is but the deceit of thy own wicked heart , and not his words nor intentions , as may evidently appear to any who have but the least measure of honesty to judge . but what though you in a hypocritical manner , according to the vain and foolish imaginations of your dark hearts , have fancied to your selves a worship in your wills , and practise things in imitation of others , which you say you plead for , and follow , and call ordinances of christ , because the scripture declares that such things were practised by those who were thereto led by the spirit of god , though you from that spirit are erred ; and saith the scripture is your rule ; must it therefore follow , that t s. doth account jesus christ crucified , &c. to be the man of sin , and his ordinances , the ordinances of the man of sin ? oh wicked and damnable conclusion drawn from such an argument ! thou tells of the quaker's logick ; surely this may truly be call'd the devil's logick ; for greater wickedness , and more horrible iniquity i believe never dropped from the pen of any one that pretends to plead for , and follow ordinances of christ ; but it is not your professing the name of christ , or professing justification by faith in his blood , or practising things by imitation , and calling it the ordinances of christ , that will avail you any thing , whilest the man of sin bears rule , and is exalted in you ; for notwithstanding your profession , whilst sin doth reign in you , all that you practise is but the ordinances of the man of sin , and those ordinances are weak and unprofitable , and can never make the comers thereunto ( or the practisers of them ) perfect ; and in this state the spiritual man , which is christ , you know not , neither of his ordinances which are spiritual , can you partake ; for this i affirm , that the ordinances of christ , which are spiritual , are onely used and practised in the church of christ , and amongst the saints , and not elsevvhere ; and for any other to say that they either follovv them , or plead for them , i say they are intruders into those things vvhich they have not seen , and are talking of those things vvhich belongs not to them , neither vvere they ever intended or ordained for such to practise ; and it vvill be said to all such , who hath required these things at your hands ? and therefore notvvithstanding your profession , and your great boasting of the ordinances of christ , except it may appear that you are the church of christ , and that his spirit leads you to ( and guides you in ) the practise of those things , they are not the ordinances of christ to you , but a worship set up in your wils , in imitation of others who were thereunto led by the spirit of god ; for he that hath not the spirit of christ to lead him and guide him , is none of his , and then no member of his church , & such cannot partake of his ordinances . and he that hath received that spirit , is thereby made a member of the church of christ , and by it led and guided into all truth , and so into the practise of those ordinances of christ that are spiritual ; and this is agreeable with ( and according to ) the scriptures of truth ; and therefore i say , except it may appear that you are members of the church of christ , and led and guided by his spirit in the exercise & performance of those things which you practise , & which you call ordinances of christ , all that you do , is but imitation at the most ; and not withstanding your boasting of the ordinances of christ ; and that it is his ordinances you plead for , and follow , yet it will appear to be but will-worship , and voluntary humility , and the foolish inventions and imaginations of your own hearts , which wil never make the comers thereunto perfect ; and so your faith ( of which you speak ) will appear to be vain , and as ( by your own confession it appeats ) it hath not , so it will not purifie your hearts , nor give you victory over the world , but you will stil remain in your sins , and the law stil have dominion over you ; & if you are not members of that church whereof christ is the head , and so members of his body , and that his spirit leads you to ( and guides you in ) your worship and your practise , then you are of the synagogue of satan , and so the man of sin is exalted in you above all that is called god , and his voice you obey , and his servants you are , and his ordinances you practise , and him you worship , and of the true god , and his worship , and the true christ , and his ordinances , you are ignorant ; and therefore you shall be tryed whether you are the church of christ or not , or wherein you differ from them ; and thereby it will appear what those ordinances are , and whose they are , which you say you follow and plead for ; & herein you shall have just measure , for you shall be tried by your own confession , and the scriptures of truth shall be witness ; which said confession is recorded in a printed paper , directed to all the churches of jesus christ , ( as you call them ) from a meeting of the messengers of the churches in tiverton , the 18. day of the 7. month , 1657. signed in their names , and by their appointment , ( as the subscribers say , who write themselves ) thomas collier , nathaniel strange , thomas glass : and so this author , with all the rest of the people called anabaptists , are concerned in it ; which said tiverton-writing , or printed paper , was the occasion of t. s. his directing his epistle to you , called , an epistle to the churches of the anabaptists , ( so c●lled . ) which ought rather to have been received by you in love , then for any of you thus to reward him evil for good ; but his reward is with the lord , and whether you hear or forbear , whether you believe or perish in your gain-saying , he will be clear of your blood , and be a good savour to the lord . and amongst many other particulars contained in your said epistle , you say , you have made confession of those reigning abominations in your own souls , and in the churches . to wch i say , hereby you appear to be neither ministers nor churches of jesus christ , but very much to differ from them ; for if abomination reigns in your churches , then abomination is the head of your church ; for that which reigns in the church , is the head of the church ; and if abomination be the head of your church , then is not christ your head ; but the church of christ did witness christ to be their head , and not abomination ; and they were exhorted to grow up into him in all things , which is the head , even christ , who is both the head and the saviour of his church , which is his body , according to the scriptures , eph. 4. 15. eph. 5. 23. coll. 1. 18. and thus it 's evident that you are not the church of christ , which is his body , because christ is not your head . again , that which reigns in your churches , hath dominion over your churches ; and you say abomination reigns in your churches , & in your souls ; therefore abomination hath dominion over your churches , and over your souls ; and this proves you to be no church of christ , because you are subjects to another prince , and other lords hath the dominion over you , and you are not subjects of christs kingdom ; but the church of christ were in subject on to christ , and he did reign over them , and had the dominion over them , as the scriptures declares , which saith , he shall reign over the house of david for ever , and of his kingdome there shall be no end ; who is set far above all principality , and power , and might , and dominion , and every name that is named , &c. to whom they ascribed praise and dominion for ever and ever , luke 1 33. eph. 1. 21. 1 pet 4. 11. again , abo nination is that which god hates , and his wrath and displeasure is against such in whom abomination reigns ; for the fearful , and unbelieving , and abominable , &c. must have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone ; but the church of christ are beloved of god , and have their part , and their inheritance , and fellowship with the father , and with the son , and with the saints in light , as the scriptures doth witness , which saith , for the father himself loveth you , because ye have loved me ; and the love of god was shed abroad in their hearts , and nothing was able to seperate them from the love of god in christ jesus ; and they had known and believed the love that god had to them , john 16. 27. rom. 5. 5. rom. 8. 39. 1 john 1. 3. 1 john 4. 16. and thus you in whom abomination reigns , are proved to be no church of christ , for where abomination doth reign , there christ doth not reign ; but such were they who sent a message after him , saying , we will not have this man to reign over us ; who must be brought and slain before his face , and where christ doth not reign , there his statutes and his ordinances are not known , but every one walketh and worshippeth according to the imagination of his own heart , and every one doth that which is right in his own eyes , even as they did when there vvas no king in israel , and the statutes and ordinances vvhich you follow , and plead for , are the dictates of the man of sin vvhich bears rule in you ; yea even from the abomination vvhich is set up where it ought not to stand , ( vvhich makes desolate ) do you receive them , and not from christ vvho is the head , king , and law-giver to his church and people ; and in this state vvhilst abomination reigns and is head in you , vvhat ever you profess or vvhat ever you practise , it is all abomination to the lord ; for the prayers of the wicked ( or those in vvhom abomination reigns ) are abomination to the lord ; and vvhilest that vvhich is abominable in the sight of the lord ▪ rules , and is head in you ; all that proceeds from you , yea , even your best performances , ( though they may in outward appearance seem to be the same vvith the people of god , or church of christ , and like that vvhich the people of god and church of christ did practise according to scripture-testimony ) yet it all stinks in the nostrils of the lord , and is an abomination in his sight ; for who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean ? not one . and surely you in whom abomination reigns , are unclean in the eyes of our god , for he is of purer eyes then to behold iniquity : and therefore vvhilst abomination reigns in your churches , and in your souls , call not your selves ministers of christ , nor churches of christ , nor do not say you plead for , and follow his ordinances ; for the church of christ hath an altar whereof you have no right to eat , neither can you taste of the supper of the lord , neither have you any part or lot in this matter ; for your hearts are not upright before the lord , neither into the city of our solemnity may you enter ; for into that city can in no wise enter any thing that defiles , or worketh abomination , or loves or makes a lye ▪ you complain in your epistle , of a light spirit , living short of the true sight and sence of gods majesty in his churches , and among his saints . by vvhich also it appears you are not the church of christ , neither is that light spirit , of vvhich you complain ▪ the spirit of god ; but it was otherwise vvith the church of christ , of vvhich the scriptures declares ; for they had received the spirit of truth , ( vvhich vvas not a light spirit ) by which they were led into all truth , and had the true sight and sence of gods majesty amongst them , and did not live short thereof , but beheld his glory , and were made glad with the favor of his countenance , which was lifted up upon them , psal. 89 ▪ 15. psal ▪ 21. 6 ▪ acts 2. 28. john 14. 16 , 17. 1 cor. 2 12. gal. 4. 6. 1 ioh. 3. 24. & your spirit is a spirit of blindnes , by your own confession , so that you cannot perceive the things that pertain to the kingdom of god , but you are without the true sight & sence thereof , & so you are walking in the dark paths , and going on in the broad way which leadeth to destruction ▪ but the church of christ did walk in the light of the lord , & the spirit by which they were led and guided , led them out of darkness into the marvelous light of the lord , and guided their feet into the paths of peace , as the scriptures doth witness , 2 cor. 4. 6. ephes. 5 8. 1 thess. 5. 4 , 5. 1 pet. 2 9. and thus you who are led and guided by a light spirit , that lives short of the true sight and sence of gods majesty in his churches , and among his saints , are not the church of christ , but are under chains of darkness , and the god of this world hath blinded your eyes ▪ now you seem to confess that gods majesty is to be seen in his churches , and his presence to be enjoyed by his people , and among his saints ; and if so , then you who live short of the true sight and sence of his majesty which is seen in his church , and do not behold the glory of his presence which his saints doth see and behold , and which is amongst them ; i say , then you are not of that number who are indeed his church and saints , but you live short of the true sight and sence of that glory and excellency which they behold , and are made partakers of ; and in this state of ignorance and blindness you are groping , but cannot find the door , and you call evil good , and good evil ; you put darkness for light , and light for darkness ; you call your own fancies and imaginations , ordinances of christ ; and the light of christ which is spiritual , and shines in the hearts of his people , by which they have the true sight and sence of gods majesty amongst them , this you call fancy and imagination ; and your own inventions you set up as an altar to the unknown god , and you worship you know not what , but of the true god and his worship you are ignorant , for his voice at any time you have not heard , nor his shape you have not seen , and of the true christ and his ordinances you are unsensible ▪ and his body ( which is spiritual ) you cannot discern , and therefore though you boast that it is the ordinances of christ you plead for , and follow , as church-fellowship in breaking of bread , and prayers , &c. yet you are discovered to be of that number that are unworthy to partake of the supper of the lord , and of the ordinances of christ ; for you being out of the true sight and sence of gods majesty in his churches , and amongst his saints , you are out of the discerning of the lords body , which is spiritual , and therefore instead of partaking of the ordinances of christ , you eat and drink to your selves damnation , not discerning the lords body . again , you complain in the said epistle , of a wretched , wor●●y spirit , which plucks the saints down from their excellency , and leaves blackness upon you , which renders you uncomely , &c. which doth also manifest you to be no church of christ ; for the spirit which is in them , doth build them up , and not pluck them down ; and doth beautifie them , and not render them uncomely , and it causeth them to excel all other people , & doth not pluck them down from their excellency , & it is not a wretched wordly spirit , but the spirit of god , by which they overcome the world ; and this spirit was in the saints and church of christ , of which the scriptures of truth doth witness ; and they had received that grace which taught them to deny ungodliness & worldly lusts and had escaped the pollutions which are in the world through lusts , & they did witness that faith which overcomes the world , and knew him to live in them by whom the world is overcome , and were directed and commended to that grace which was able to build them up , and they were built up together , and became a habitation of god through the spirit , even a spiritual house , an holy priesthood , to offer up spiritual sacrifices unto god , 1 cor. 2. 12. gal. 6. 14. tit 2. 12. 2 pet 1. 4. 1 ioh. 5. 4. acts 20. 32. eph. 2. 20 , 21 ▪ 22. iude 20. 1 pet. 2 5. isa. 28. 5 , 6. isa. 61. 3. by all which it appears how much you differ from the church of christ , insomuch that the absolute contrary marks , fruits , and effects , doth appear in you , and amongst you , as was in them , and amongst them ; but you are of those who turn again with the dog to the vomit , and with the sow that was washed , to the wallowing in the mire , who were indeed once more excellent while you were little in your own eyes , before you were thus setled on your lees ; & there was a time when there was breathings in some of you after the lord , and something which did hunger and thirst after righteousness , and there was then some tenderness amongst you , and a sensibleness of something that was oppressed , and held captive as under the power of a strange king , and then there was some groanings for deliverance , and some desires raised in you after the lord , and after purity and holiness , which did render you comely whilst you abode in that state ; but you have lost that condition , and the cry of the oppressed is not regarded by you ; but you are joyned ( and become one ) wi●●●he oppressor , and that which onc● breathed to be delivered from the bondage of corruption , you have even choaked & strangled , and so you never knew that born or brought forth , which is heir of gods kingdom , but an untimely birth is brought forth , and you are sate down by the way , in an empty form , wanting the life and power , and have taken up a false rest , but the true rest you have not known : and thus a wretchedworldly spirit hath overcome you , accompanied with many other evils of the like nature , by your own confession , and hath pluckt you from that excellency which you once had , and hath defaced that comeliness which was once upon you , and hath left blackness and deformity upon you ; and those desires which once appeared amongst you , are forgotten , and the tenderness quite lost , and hardness of heart got up , and nothing remains but deadness , and dryness , and emptiness ▪ amongst you , according to your confession ; and thus the seed even rots under the clods , and you dwell in a land of darkness , where the presence of the lord is not found to refresh you , nor the dew of the lasting hills falls not on you , but you remain dry and barren , bringing forth no fruit to god , but deceit and abomination rules in your hearts , and the man of sin is exalted in you above all that is called god , and great clusters of the sowre grapes of sodom appear amongst you , and is plentifully brought forth by you to the dishonor of god ; so your latter end is worse then your beginning . again , you say in your said epistle , you have been , as in a great measure without the sence of the work , so without the true travel of soul , which this work should have pat you into . so hereby you utterly exclude your selves from being a church of christ , and are manifested in a great measure to differ from them ; for if you are insensible of the work of god amo●●s● you , and in you , and if it be not he that worketh the will and the deed , and that works all your works for you , and in you , then you are doing your own works , and your righteousness is your own , and not the lords ; & so your righteousness is the same with that of the scribes & pharisees , who were not the church of christ , but those who crucified him : but the church of christ were sensible of the work of god in them , and amongst them , as the scriptures of truth doth witness , and they gave a particular relation thereof , how it wrought in them , saying , that patience worketh experience , and experience hope , and hope maketh not ashamed ; and these were the works of god in them , of which they were sensible , & they said , lord thou wilt ordain peace for us , for thou hast wrought all our works in us : so they were sensible of the work , and of him that worketh , and they knew that they were of god , and that the son of god was come , who had given them an understanding to know him that was true ; and they were in him that is true , and they testified that this was the true god , and eternal life ; and those were not insensible , but had their sences exercised in the knowledge of the work of god , and they had known the terrors of the lord , and therefore did perswade men , and so were not insensible of the work , as the scriptures witnesseth , rom. 5. 4 , 5. isa. 26. 12. 1 ioh. 5. 19 , 20. 2 cor. 5. 11. again , the church of christ had known the true travel of soul , and witnessed the birth which is born of the spirit , which inherits the kingdom of god , of which travel it seems you are ignorant , and therefore never came to the birth which is immortal ; but they had cryed as a woman in travel , and felt the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child , and every man was seen with his hands upon his loins , as a woman in travel ; and they have also known the deliverance , and forgotten the anguish and the pain , for joy that a man-child is born ; and the minister of christ said , that he travelled in pain until christ was formed in them ; and they were born again , not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the word of god , which liveth and abideth for ever , as the scriptures doth witness , ier. 4. 31. mic. 4. 10. gal. 4. 19. 1 pet. 1. 23. but you who are without the sence of the work , and have not known the souls travel , are not born of the seed which is incorruptible , and so not heirs of gods promise ; for the promise is to the seed , in which all the nations of the earth are blessed ; and those who are not born of the seed wch is incorruptible , they are under the curse , in the transgression , alienated from the life of god , & strangers from the common-wealth of israel ; out of gods covenant , with whom the church of christ can have no fellowship . you further say in the said epistle , the world as a canker , doth eat out your affections to the lord jesus . which doth also prove you to be no church of christ , but to differ from them ; for the church of christ had their affections set on christ , and the minister of christ said , if ye be risen with christ , seek those things which are above , where christ sitteth on the right hand of god ; set your affections on things above , & not on things on the earth : and he saith , if any man love not the lord jesus christ , let him be , anathema maranatha . and such who are accursed , are no church of christ . and he said , who shall seperate us from the love of christ ? and he was perswaded ▪ that neither death , nor life , nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come , nor heighth , nor depth , nor any other creature , should be able to seperate them from the love of god which is in christ jesus : and the world had not eaten out their affections to christ jesus ; and this was their confidence , that nothing could alienate their affections from him : and iohn said , love not the world , neither the things that are in the world ; if any man love the world , the love of the father is not in him ; and he saith , every one that loveth him that begat , loveth him that is begotten of him , col. 3. 1 , 2. 1 cor. 16. 22. rom. 8. 35 , 38 , 39. 1 iohn 2. 15 : 1 iohn 5. 1. but you say your affections to the lord jesus are eaten out by the world , as by a canker , therefore the love of the father is not in you , but the god of this world hath blinded your eyes , and being in love with the world , you are in the enmity against god ; for the friendship of the world is enmity to god : and the world being thus set in your hearts , you cannot find out the beginning , nor know the end of the work of god , but are without the true sight and sence of his majesty , and without the sence of his work in your souls , and in your churches ; and although you may think you are rich , and encrease in goods , because you call your selves churches of christ , and because you have heaped up together a bundle of unprofitable & carnal ordinances , according to your own imaginations , ( in imitation of the church of christ ) wch you call the ordinances of christ , which you plead for , and follow , yet in as much as your affections to the lord jesus are eaten out by the love of the world , and you pluckt down from your excellency by a wretched worldly spirit , you thereby appear to be no church of christ , neither do you , nor can you partake of his ordinances , which are spiritual , but are ( upon tryal ) found to be miserable , and wretched , and poor , and blind , and naked . likewise you say in your said epistle , that this iniquity hath been apparently written on your fore-heads . to which i say , you are thereby apparently known to be no church of christ , but to differ from them ; for their father's name is written on their fore-heads , & not iniquity ; and the lord caused his mark to be set on the fore-heads of all that did sigh & cry for the abominations that were committed by them whose iniquities were exceeding great ; and the servants of the lord , & church of christ , did receive the seal of the living god in their fore-heads , & upon them is written the name of god , and the name of the city of god ▪ and the new name ; and such see his face , and his name is written in their fore-heads , and not iniquity , ezek 9. 4. rev. 7. 3. & 3. 12. 22 , 4. and these are redeemed from iniquity , and their garments washed and made white in the blood of the lamb ; for where iniquity is apparently written , there the fathers name is not written ; and where the fathers name is not written , and his mark received ▪ they are not the church of christ ; for holy and reverend is his name , and holiness becomes the house of the lord ( which is his church ) for ever ; and his mark is christs righteousness , with which his church is covered and adorned ; and his seal is the holy spirit of promise , by which they are sealed to the day of redemption : but you on whose fore-heads iniquity is so apparently written , your gathering together is not into the name of the lord , which is a strong tower to the righteous , who run in thither , and are safe ; neither are you covered with christs righteousness , nor sealed with his holy spirit ; neither is his mark upon you , or his name written on your fore-heads , but your iniquity is marked before the lord ; and iniquitie being your mark , thereby you are plainly known to be of that number that worship the beast ▪ and his image , and his name you bear , and his mark is on your fore-heads , and whilst you bear this mark so apparently on your fore-heads , ( to wit ) iniquitie , you ought not to make mention of the name of the lord , for he that nameth the name of the lord , should depart from iniquitie , else it would be said unto you , depart hence , i know you not , ye workers of iniquity ; although you may say with them , we have eaten and drunk in thy presence , and we have pleaded for , and followed thy ordinances ; yet i say , notwithstanding this plea , if iniquitie be your mark , you must depart with the workers of iniquitie . also you say in your said epistle , that this sin eats out all the divine sweetness of regenerating and sanctifying grace . and by this also it appears that you are no church of christ , for if that be eaten out by sin , which should regenerate you , then are you unregenerate ; and if unregenerate , then no church of christ ; for the church of christ are regenerated and born again , not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the word of god , and saved by the washing of regeneration , and by the renewing of the holy ghost ; and sin had not eaten out that which should regenerate them , wch was the grace of god ; for they were quickened together with christ , and saved by grace , tit. 3. 5. 1 pet. 1. 24. eph. 2. 5. again , if that be eaten out by sin , which should sanctifie you , then are you unsanctified ; and if you are unsanctified , then surely you are no church of christ ; for the church of christ were washed , & sanctified , & justified in the name of the lord jesus , & by the spirit of god ; & they said they were sanctified by the will o god , through the offring of the bodie of je●us ; & iude did write to them that were sanctified by god the father , &c. 1 cor. 6. 11. heb. 10. 10. iude 1. and thus you being unregenerated , & unsanctified , you cannot enter into gods kingdom ; for except a man be born again , he cannot enter into the kingdom of god ; but he which is unregenerate , is not born again , and therefore cannot enter into the kingdom of god . and without holiness no man can see the lord ; but he that is unsanctified , is without holiness , and therefore cannot see the lord . and so though grace hath abounded towards you , yet it seems your sins hath much more abounded , in so much that sin hath overcome you , and eaten out all the divine sweetness of regenerating and sanctifying grace ; but with the church of christ it was otherwise ; for though there was a time in which sin had abounded , yet grace had much more abounded in them ; so that by grace they were saved from sin , and were become dead to sin , and alive unto righteousness , and had their fruits unto holiness , and the end everlasting life . and so by all these particulars , of which you have confest your selves to be guilty , it is evident that you are neither ministers nor churches of christ ; but on the contrary , it plainly appears that you very much differ from them : and also there are many other particulars exprest in the said tiverton epistle , of which you confess your selves to be guilty , which time would even fail me to insist upon ; whereby i could further ( and more fully and largely ) prove that you are neither ministers nor churches of jesus christ , some of which are as followeth . that coldness and deadness is upon your selves , and upon the churches ; formality in holy duties , indifferencie , and a laodicean spirit is sallen in upon you ; that you have been drawing iniquitie with cords of vanitie ; that there is amongst you personal iniquitie , congregational iniquitie , national iniquitie , familie iniquitie , closet iniquitie ; that you are without soundness , from the crown of the head , to the sole of the foot , full of bruises and putrified sores , and the crown is fallen from your head by reason of your iniquities ; that you have but as it were , played with god , and not trembled in his presence , but have been wanton before him , and without the terror of his maiestie ; and ●●at you have delighted to confess , and to word it out with the lord , and being gone away , presentlie forgot what manner of men and women you were , & thought no more on your prayers , and so confess that you have often mocked god ; that the world doth eat out your time , your strength , your zeal ; and that in the lap of this dalilah ( whilst asleep ) your locks have been cut off , and you are but as other men ; that satan hath shewed you the kingdoms of the world , and this hath bewitched you , and alienated your minds from the lord ; that you are remiss in meetings , and that you neglect the poor saints & ministers of christ , whose dailie complaints and addresses ( you say ) are living monuments of this reigning abomination that you are cruel to servants and children , exacting all their labours , and takes no time to counsel or instruct them , whereby their souls might be the better for you ; that slavish fear hath stopped your mouths , until the mouth of this iniquitie hath almost devoured your poor churches . that these evils are so deeplie rooted in your hearts , that it is hard to get them out ; that they have wrested all weapons out of your hands , that have been formed against them ; so that you have laboured in vain , and that which you have brought forth , hath been to little purpose . several other such like things as these , you confess your selves and your churches to be guilty of , in the said tiverton epistle . to all which i say , if you are indeed guiltie of all these reigning abominations , and apparent iniquities , according to your confession , then assuredlie may i conclude , that you are neither ministers nor churches of christ ; and that the ordinances which you practise , are not the ordinances of christ , but the ordinances of the man of sin , which is exalted , and bears rule in you ; for of these abominations and apparent iniquities , the church of christ was never guiltie , as hath been proved : and if you say you are not guiltie thereof , according to your confession , then is this confession of yours a most abominable piece of hypocrisie , wherein you have even mocked god , as you say you have done often , which will render you no less culpable of his fierce wrath and heavy indignation , then the former . and thus are your skirts discovered , & your deeds brought to light , & you weighed in an equal ballance ▪ ●nd true judgment pass'd upon you ; and therefore although you call your selves churches of christ , & ministers of christ , yet your presumption is hereby discovered , who call your selves churches of christ , and are not ; as their blasphemie was known who said they were jews , and were not ; and you with them are found lyars . and although you boast of the ordinances of christ , and say it is his ordinances you follow , and plead for according to the scriptures , and would seem to deck your selves with precious stones , and pearls , yet whilst these abominations reign in you , and such iniquities so apparentlie written upon you , your name is , mysteris babylon , the mother of harlots , and abomination of the earth ; a synagogue of satan , a habitation of devils , a hold of every foul spirit , and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird : and therefore though joab flie to lay hold on the horns of the altar , yet from thence he must be taken , because he is a man of blood , and so on his head must the blood of abner be charged , and rest for ever , that davia and his house may be clear before the lord for ever . and thus the spiritual man ( which is christ the true light ) with his ordinances and administrations , which are spiritual , are exalted above the man of fin , and above his ordinances , which are weak and unprofitable , and which doth not make the comers thereunto perfect ; and above that imagined , false christ , which doth not save his people from their sins ; and above that justification which justifies people in their sins ; and above that blood which doth not reach to the purging of the conscience from dead works ; and above that faith which doth not purifie the heart , and give victory over the world ; and above that baptism which is not by one spirit , into one body , whereby sin and transgression , reigning abominations , and apparent iniquities are washed away ; and above that church-fellowship which is not with the father , and with the son , and with the assembly of the first-born , and with the spirits of just men made perfect ; and above that bread which is not the body of christ ; and above that cup which is not the cup of blessing , of consolation , and salvation , even the communion of the blood of christ , the spiritual rock of which the israel of god drunk . and above those prayers which are but lip-labour , which are so soon forgotten , and no more thought upon , and wherewith god is so often mocked , which comes not from a pure heart , and holy hands lifted up without wrath and doubting ; and above that worship which stands in the will of man , in conformity to a rule , or law without them , not being thereunto led by the spirit of the living god , whose worship is spiritual , and who will be worshipped in the spirit , and in the truth ; i say , the spiritual man with his ordinances and administrations , which are spiritual , stands over the man of sin , and over these his carnal , weak , unprofitable ordinances , beggarlie rudiments , vain ceremonies , and traditional imitations , which although you call them the ordinances of christ , yet they are but your own fancies and imaginations . and thus by a just and a lawful trial , it plainly and evidently appears that you are neither churches nor ministers of jesus christ , but in all the particulars before-mentioned , you are found very much to differ from them ; and because you are not the church of christ , and that his spirit doth not lead you to ( and guide you in ) the practise or performance of those things which you plead for , and follow , therefore those things by you pleaded for , are not the ordinances of christ , but the ordinances of the man of sin ; and so the spiritual man with his ordinances and administrations , are exalted above the man of sin , with the weak and unprofitable ordinances that doth not make the comers thereunto perfect , according to the truth asserted by thomas salthouse , which is hereby vindicated , and fully confirmed . and now i shall return to speak to some particulars in thy paper , wherein thou saist , because in the tiverton epistle there is a complaint against the sins that are remaining in the churches , t. s from hence suggesteth that they are no churches of christ . i answer , t. s. had sufficient ground from your own confession in the said epistle , to conclude that you are no churches of christ , as was by him fully proved , and is now again more at large confirmed : for the church of christ ( which is his bodie ) is in all things answerable and proportionable to him who is the head : now you will all confess that the head is holie , harmless , undefiled , seperate from sin and sinners ; and if the bodie be unholie , full of abomination , and defiled with sin and iniquitie , then is christ the head of a defiled , polluted , unclean , sinful body ; and this is not proportionable ▪ for as is the head , such are the members , and they said , as he is , so are we in this present world , 1 joh. 4. 17. but in that epistle you do not onely complain against those sins that are yet remaining in the churches , but you there say that abominations are reigning in your churches and in your souls . now these expressions in thy paper , where thou speakest of sins remaining , &c. might seem very much to alter the case , and to lessen the crime , in the judgement of those that have not seen your consession in the said epistle ; and such might begin to think that t. s. had dealt something uncharitably with you , to exhort all that fear god , to seperate from you , and to come out from among you , because some sins were yet remaining amongst you ; for to speak of sins yet remaining , might seem to imply , that some sins were mortified and put off , and as if you were warring against , and waiting to receive power to overcome those that remain ; and such a condition as this , we could own , though we cannot own those for a church of christ , who live in sin ; for we own and witness a spiritual warfare , which all must know before they can be members of the church of christ ; and had you been found in such a condition as this , to be armed with the power of god , and so to stand in the war against sin and satan , we could have owned you in such a state , as a people whom the lord was purging , and cleanslng , and sanctifying for himself , sitting and preparing you to be a habitation for the lord to dwell in , that your bodies might become the temples of the holy ghost , and so you might be married to the lord in righteousness , & become the spouse of christ , which is his church ; but it is far otherwise with you , for sin is not onely remaining in you , but reigning in you , and apparently written upon you ; and where sin and abomination reigns , it hath the sole dominion , power , and preheminence , and as a strong man armed , keeps the house , and is at peace , and the stronger is not come that should dis-possess him , and make the keepers of the house to tremble , and the strong to bow , that should enter in , and break his peace , and spoile his goods ; neither are you in a condition to war against sin , for you confess that all weapons are wrested from you , with which you should maintain war against it ; so that sin & abomination hath quiet & peaceable possession in you , & hath got both strength & weapons to defend it self upon all occasions . and so you are altogether servants to sin , & slaves to satan , & under aegyptian darkness ; & this is much more then to say , sins yet remaining in you ; and as i have said , doth very much alter your case , from what these expressions of thine might seem to render it . and ( saist thou ) that which t. c. saith , is that the true churches of christ have had the same ▪ or as great sins and abominations in them , as are mentioned in that epistle , and yet were the true churches of christ , owned of god , as is fully proved , &c. to which scriptures ( thou saist ) t. s. gives no answer . to this i say , it is a very light thing with t. c. to lay sin to the charge of gods elect , and to condemn the generation of the just , and also to plead justification for those in whom abomination reigns , and in whose fore-heads iniquitie is apparentlie written , but t. c. will one day know , that he which justifieth the wicked , and he that condemneth the just , even they both are abomination to the lord : yet by all that t. c. hath said , ( though he hath quoted so many scriptures , perverting them , and even wresting them to his own destruction ) it doth not appear that ever the church of christ was guilty of these or the like abominations ▪ as in the tiverton epistle is exprest ; neither doth any one of those scriptures at all prove any such thing ; therefore it was needless for t. s to give any answer thereunto ; but forasmuch as thou seems to vaunt thy self because t. s. hath not spoken particularly in answer to those scriptures which thou call'st t. c. his cloud of witnesses ▪ and that both in thy paper , and also in t. c. his answer to t. s. his epistle , the perverting of the scriptures , especially what is written to the church of corinth , is made use of as a stirrup , whereby you may mount you selves upon the throne of iniquitie , taking occasion from what the apostle writes to them concerning such as had sinned to boast your selves to be the church of christ , notwithstanding your great abominations and apparent iniquities , confest and exprest in tiverton writing ; i shall therefore speak something briefly to some of those scriptures , thereby to discover thy blindness and ignorance of the things of god ▪ of which the scriptures of truth declares : and first concerning the church of the romans , chap. 13. ver. 12 , 13 , 14. which t. c. mentioneth , where the apostle saith , the night is far spent , the day is at hand , let us therefore cast off the works of darkness , and let us put on the armor of light ; let us walk honestly as in the day , not in rioting and drunkenness , not in chambering and wantonness , not in strike and envying , but put ye on the lord jesus christ , &c. doth the apostle here charge them with walking dishonestly , because he exhorts them to walk honestly ? nay assuredly , for he saith to them , i am perswaded of you my brethren that ye also are full of goodness , fill'd with all knowledge , &c. rom. 15. 14 and if they were full of goodness , then there was no room for dishonesty ; and rioting , and drunkenness , chambering , and wantonness , strife , and envying , are works of the night , and of darkness ; but he saith , the night is far spent , the day is at hand , let us put on therefore the armor of light . now if they had not been come to the day , how could they put on the armor of light ? and if they were come to the day , then the night was past , and the works of darkness put off , & this exhortation he gave unto them , to stir up their pure minds by way of remembrance , as the apostle peter did likewise , who said , wherefore i will not be negligent to put ye alwayes in remembrance of these things , though ye know them , and are established in the present truth , 2 pet. 1. 12. and so this proves nothing at all for t. c. that the church of the romans were guiltie of the same , or as great sins and abominations as is mentioned in the tiverton writing . and as touching the church at corinth , although the apostle did write to them concerning fornication , yet he doth not say that such fornicators were of the church of christ , neither doth he tollerate them , though t. c. saith that fornication was tollerated amongst them ; but doth exhort the church of christ when they were gathered together in the spirit and power of the lord jesus christ , to deliver such to satan , and bids them to have no fellowship with such , nay not to companie with such , nor to eat with such , especially if any such were called a brother , that was a fornicator , or covetous , or an idolater , or a railer , or a drunkard , or an extortioner ; but they were to put away from among them that wicked person , 1 cor. 5. chap. and surely this was not to tollerate them , as t. c. hath affirmed ; for although such might creep in amongst them , as jude saith in his epistle , ver. 4. that there were certain men crept in unawares , who were before ordained to this condemnation , ungodly men , turning the grace of god into laciviousness ; yet these ungodly men were none of the church of christ ; for though they might creep in amongst them , yet they were not of them ; and such iohn saw , and said of them , they went out from us ; [ mark ] they went out : therefore they had been in , or had crept in : they went out from us , that they might be made manifest that they were not of us , 1 ioh. 2. 19. and the apostle did say to the church of christ at corinth , that neither fornicators , nor idolators , nor adulterers , nor effeminate , nor abusers of themselves with mankind , nor thieves , nor covetous , nor drunkards , nor revilers , nor extortioners , shall inherit the kingdom of god ; and if they shall not inherit the kingdom of god , then assuredly they are not the church of christ ; and this would be but small advantage to t. c. and his brethren in iniquitie , if they could shelter themselves under such fornicators , idolaters , railers , drunkards , revilers , &c. and cover themselves with the name of the church of christ , whilst as wicked , and as abominable in the sight of god , as the worst of them ; i say , this covering would be of small advantage to them , seeing the portion of such is to be shut out of god's kingdom . and the apostle makes a noted distinction between the church of christ , and such wicked persons , saying , and such were some of you , [ mark ] they had been such ▪ but saith he , ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified in the name of the lord iesus , and by the spirit of our god , 1 cor. 6. 9 10 , 11. and this shews your blindness , that you cannot make a distinction between such ungodlie sinners here spoken of , and the church of christ ; you may trulie say that you live short of the true sight and sence of god's majestie in his churches , and among his saints , who are thus blind , that you cannot distinguish between a member of the church of christ , and a fornicator , especiallie where the scripture hath made such a noted distinction ; might not t. c. as well have instanced iudas for a member of the church of christ , as these fornicators and unclean persons ? yea rather ; for the disciples were not for bid to keep him companie , nor forbid to eat with him , nor bid to excommunicate him , as the church of christ was those before-mentioned , and therefore his being tollerated amongst the disciples , might better have served for your purpose , from his example to endeavour to perswade people that you are , and may be accounted a church of christ , notwithstanding your great abominations confess'd in your tiverton epistle ; trulie your blindness may even be felt , and if you were not quite insensible , you might blush , and be ashamed of your gross ignorance . but t. c. saith , the apostle did not unchurch them , as the enemies of christ do in these dayes . take notice reader , did not he unchurch those whom he delivered to satan , and those whom he commanded the church of christ to have no fellowship with , or not to company with them , nor to eat with them , but were commanded to put away from amongst themselves such wicked persons ? is not this to unchurch them , according to t. c. his own expressions ? what doth he call unchurching , if this be not to unchurch them ? he saith , the churches of galatia were so deeply corrupted , that the apostle wondered they were so soon removed to another gospel , &c. yet notwithstanding ( saith he ) he owns them to be the churches of galatia , and wisheth grace and peace to them ▪ &c. to which i say ▪ if the churches of galatia were removed from the gospel of christ , ( which is the power of god ) then the churches of galatia were not the churches of christ , no more then the churches of the anabaptists ( in whom such abomination reigns ) are the churches of christ ; neither doth his owning them to be the churches of galatia , prove them to be the churches of christ , any more then t. s. his calling you the churches of the anabaptists , proves you to be the churches of christ . and whereas he saith , he wisheth grace and peace to them , and endeavours their reformation ; i say , your reformation likewise hath been endeavoured by the servants and messengers of the lord , whose counsel ye have rejected ; and grace hath been tendered , and hath appeared to you , but ye have turned from it , and despised it ; and except the churches of galatia did ( and the churches of the anabaptists do ) return to that gospel from which they were removed , the peace of god neither did , nor doth belong to them , nor you ; neither could they , or can you be accounted the churches of christ . he saith , so likewise the church of the philippians , many so walked , of whom the apostle saith , i have often told you , and now tell you weeping , that they are enemies to the cross of christ , phil. 3. 18. yet ( saith he ) they were owned to be a church , with their officers . to which i say , that those who are enemies to the cross of christ , are not the church of christ ; for the church of christ did glory in the cross of christ , and were not enemies to it , gal. 6. 14. and the preaching of it was to them ( and it is to as many as believe ) the power of god , 1 cor. 1. 13. and the apostle tells what is the end of such who are enemies to the cross of christ ; he saith , their end is destruction , and that is not the end of the church of christ . but though the apostle writes to the church of the philippians , of such who were enemies to the cross of christ , yet he doth not say that the church of the philippians were enemies to the cross of christ , nor that any of them in particular were so . he also bids them beware of dogs , and of evil workers , &c. doth he therefore say that the church of the philippians are dogs and evil-workers ? but this is some of those scriptures which are called t. c. his cloud of witnesses , to prove that the true churches of christ have had the same , or as great sins and abominations in them , as is confess'd in the tiverton epistle : now though t. c. be a noted lyar , yet the scriptures are true , and cannot be broken . and although by perverting and wresting the true sence thereof , thereby endeavouring to make the scriptures speak what he would have them , to abuse the simple ▪ minded , and deceive ignorant people , he hath drawn this wicked conclusion from the whole ; that they are ( & may be owned to be ) the churches of christ , notwithstanding their great abominations confess'd in their tiverton epistle . yet now these witnesses being honestly examined , without wresting or perverting , they are found to witness against t. c. and the same witness which he brings to prove his assertions , doth witness against him , and proves himself to be the lyar ; and this is usual , that if the witnesses which t. c. offers for proof of any thing , be the scriptures of truth , they surely testifie against him , and prove him to be the lyar , and instead of witnessing for him , they witness against him . and when he affirms a thing that is so notoriously false and wicked , as that he cannot any way wrest the scriptures to make them seem to prove what he asserts , he useth to say , that this is true ; is so evident that it needs no proof ; or , that this is true , is so evident that he that runs may read ; and such like words ▪ witness his looking-glass , as is at large discovered in a book , call'd , truth vindicated , by john pitman , and jasper batt . some other scriptures are by him mentioned , whereby he hath endeavoured to prove the churches of christ in former ages , to be sinful , thereby to make way for themselves to be owned as a church of christ ; but all that he saith is to no more purpose then that which hath been already answered , & could as easily be answered , & his folly thereby made manifest , as it hath been sufficiently by what hath been answered to those scriptures by him quoted . but he saith of those before ▪ mentioned , that they were called to repentance . what ? were they then a church of christ , or the churches of christ , before repentance , that he makes use of this to prove them churches of christ , because they were call'd to repentance ? simon magus was call'd to repentance , was he therefore a member of the church of christ ? and the apostle said , that god commanded all men every where to repent ; are therefore all men every where the church of christ ? oh gross darkness and ignorance , to use that as an argument to prove them to be the church of christ because they were call'd to repentance ! and so are you call'd to repentance , and to repentance you must come , before you can be owned as a church of christ ; for we say christ came to call sinners to repentance ; and his ministers were sent to turn people from the darkness to the light , and to bring them from under satan's power unto god ; but though you have been call'd to return from your wickedness , and live , and have been invited to come to him who is the way to the father , who gives eternal life to all that come unto him ; yet you have refused to return , and have rebell'd against the light . neither is it onely the calling to repentance , that makes them or you the churches of christ ; but it is them who answers that holy call , and comes to repentance , even to that repentance which is never to be repented of ; that is , to repent and forsake ; it is such shall find mercy and acceptance with the lord , and they shall be his , and accounted members of his church in the day when he makes up his jewels ; but as for such as have been call'd to repentance , and have not answered that holy call by obedience to him that hath called them , his call , and his loving invitation shall stand as a witness against such for ever ; and because the lord hath called , and they would not hear , therefore when they call and cry , there shall be none to deliver them . thou saist , that t. s hath manifested abominable hypocrisie and deceit , in that he saith that t. c. instanceth the saints infirmities in former ages , to encourage in a state of sin , &c. when its evident ( saist thou ) that he instanceth those examples to stop the mouths of lyars and deceivers , &c. and to discover the simple and vain notions of those who would suggest that the churches of christ are none of his , because there is sin in them . to which i say , i have answered some of those scriptures call'd t. c. his cloud of witnesses , which may also serve for answer to all the rest , thereby to discover the folly and ignorance , sottishness and blindness of those who would suggest that fornicators and unclean persons , drunkards , railers , revilers , extortioners , thieves , covetous persons , idolaters , and such like , are members of the church of christ ; and also to stop the mouths of such lyars and deceivers who say the true churches of christ have had the same , or as great sins and abominations in them as are mentioned in tiverton epistle , and yet were the true churches of christ notwithstanding . and although according to thy wonted manner , thou railest at t. s. accusing him with hypocrisie and deceit , because he saith t. c. doth encourage in a state of sin ; i say , it is evident that by what t. c. hath written , he doth more then encourage in a state of sin ; for he makes it of absolute necessity , that if any will be a member of the church of christ , he must be a sinner ; and that if christ have any church at all , it must be a sinful one ; and that whosoever saith the contrary , is a hypocrite ; and so sin and wickedness must be ( as it were the condition or qualification required of all who are capable , or desires admittance into the church of christ ; for he saith god never had yet a church in the world free from sin , nor were there ever any durst so to say , &c. and he further saith , they that call themselves the church of christ , and say they are without sin in this mortal estate , are none of the church of christ , for he hadnever yet any such church , nor none ever dare say so , except the scribes , pharisees , & hypocrites ; & likewise he saith , that he that will not be a member of a church till he can find one without sin , is never like to be a member of any . now who will believe that t. c. doth not write this to encourage in a state of sin ? or if any should be so ignorant as to believe what he saith , who is it but would strive to be a sinner , especially ▪ if they have any hopes to be members of the church of christ ? for by his relation there can be no other plea for admittance into the church of christ , but sin and wickedness ; for if any should be purged from their sins , and should say with john , rev. 1. 5. he hath loved us , and washed us from our sins in his own blood ; such comes ( by t. c. his account ) under the notion of hypoerites , and surely hypocrites are no members of the church of christ ; therefore if christ never had a church free from sin , it might make people afraid of losing their sins , lest thereby they should be excluded from being members of his church , and be cast out to have their portion with hypocrites ; and then , whether this be not to encourage people to live in sin , that so they may not miss to be members of the church of christ ? yea , and a discouragement to any that should be in danger to lose or forsake their sins , lest thereby they should be dis-priviledged of being members of the church of christ ? let the wise in heart judge . and as i said , it is more then an encouragement to continue in sin , if they have any hopes to continue members of the church of christ , in t. c.'s esteem ; for if any one should come to him , and tell him that by the blood of christ he is purged from his old sins , and that he is come , and lives in him , who saves his people from their sins , and that by him salvation and redemption from sin is witnessed ; t. c.'s words say , that such a one is an hypocrite , and no member of the church of christ ; for he had never yet any such church , nor were there ever any that durst so to say , but hypocrites ; neither doth he own any such saviour , or salvation , as is clear from his own words at a meeting at glastonbury , where he affirmed , that he believed in a christ that was at the right hand of god in heaven , and not in the saints ; therefore if t. c. may be believed , such a one were better continue in his sins , and then if he can sometimes make an hypocritical confession thereof , and mock god therewith , and ask to be forgiven , though as soon as he is gone away , he forget what he hath done , and think no more on his prayers , ( as is confess'd in tiverton writing ) yet such a one shall be esteemed an humble , self-denying christian , living in the sence of his own unworthiness , and be esteemed a member of the church of christ ; for it seems by this doctrine , if a man should confess and forsake his sins , ( though thereby he shall find mercy from the lord , yet ) t. c. would account him an hypocrite , and no member of the church of christ ; therefore i say , if any believe t. c. and receive his testimony , and own his damnable pernicious doctrine , such are thereby more then encouraged to continue in sin and wickedness ; yea , they are enjoyned under the penalty of being disowned to be a church of christ , to continue sinful and wicked , and falls under the censure of t. c. to be termed hypocrites , if ever they should overcome sin by the power of god , and make confession thereof . and thus what t. s. hath said as to this particular , is fully proved , and the abominable deceit and hypocrisie stands charged upon thine own head , who hast thus falsly accused him for hypocrisie and deceit , in a business wherein t. c. is so apparently guilty . thou chargest t. s. to be a notorious lyar , because he saith t. c. hath spoken against the being of the seed of god , and light of christ in men ; for thou saist t. c. hath not affirmed any such thing , but owns the seed of god , & light of christ in his people ; & in the next line thou saist , this light is not in all men . now hath not t. c. spoken against the light of christ in men , if he affirm that it is not in all men ? who is the notorious lyar now ? he that saith t. c. hath spoken against the being of it men , when he saith , it is not in all men ; or he that saith , he never affirmed any such thing , as that the light of christ is not in men , and yet saith , it is not in all men ? if he say the light of christ is not in all men , then there are are some men in which ( he saith ) the light of christ is not : and so t. c. hath spoken against the light of christ in men ; and here thou art proved the lyar . but i shall prove that t. c. hath also spoken against the being of the seed of god , and light of christ in his people , if he account himself one of his people ; for he saith in his answer to t. s. pag. 16. our faith is not in a light within . now if he believes not in a light within , either he doth not own the light of christ to be in him , or else he believes not in the light of christ , and so is out of the doctrine of christ , and walks contrary to his commands , who saith , while ye have the light , believe in the light , that ye may be the children of the light ; therefore t. c. is either a child of darkness , because he doth not believe in the light of the son of god within him ; ( for where ▪ ever the true light shines , it is to be believed in ) or else he doth not own the light of christ to be in him . and thus what t. s. hath said , is proved , and the lye returned to rest upon thine own head . thou saist t. s. saith , he will joyne issue , and plead with t. c. according to the law and the testimony ; but first it must be considered what the law and the testimony is , and that he further saith , the law is in the heart , the light is in the heart , the testimony of jesus , the sure word of prophesie is in the heart , the word of faith in the heart : and now come to the matter to which thou scoffingly and wickedly saist , now he is fit for the work ; out with the scriptures of truth , and follow the law of his own heart , of his own imagination , and be sure salthouse will prevail , and carry all before him . thou hypocrite , is this outing of the scriptures of truth , to speak truth in the very scripture-language ? hath not t. s. quoted the scriptures for proof of what he asserts , concerning the law in the heart , the light in the heart , the word of faith nigh in the heart , the sure word of prophesie in the heart ? and yet thou art so impudent as to say , out with the scriiptures of truth , and follow the law of his own heart ; is the law of god in the heart ? or the light of christ in the heart ? or the word of faith in the heart ? or the sure word of prophesie , which is the testimony of jesus , in the heart ? is this the law ? or the imagination of his own heart ? thou hast no cover for thy wickedness here , but hast manifestly published thy folly , and thy envy , in charging t. s. for outing the scriptures of truth , when he hath cited the scriptures of truth for proof of what he hath spoken ; therefore because thy wickedness is so plainly and openly discovered in setting thy self through envy to oppose , gain-say , and resist the truth , the less needs be spoken in answer to it , & if any wil believe thee , or be deceived by thee herein , it is such who are willingly ignorant , and are given up to believe lyes , and their blood will be upon their own heads . but although t. c. hath cited the law and testimony for a rule , yet when t. s , had proved by the scriptures of truth , that this law and testimony is within , in the heart , it 's like t. c. had no mind to join issue , or plead with him ; for he well knows , that should he speak no more of the law of god , or of the testimony of jesus , then what is manifest in him , and written in his heart , his mouth , and the mouths of many of his brethren would soon be stopt ; for though that which may be known of god , is manifest within , ( according to the scripture ) yet they that believe not in that which doth make manifest , but are enemies to it , they know little of god , or of his law or testimony , neither is it their rule . now that which doth make manifest is light , eph. 5. 13. but t. c. saith , your faith is not in a light within ; therefore your faith is not in that which doth make manifest ; and how then should you know the things of god , or his law and testimony , of which the scriptures of truth declares . and thus though in words you profess god , and talk of his law and testimony to be your rule , yet in works you deny him , and his law of righteousness is cast behind your backs , and the testimony of jesus ( which is the spirit of prophesie ) you have denyed , and despised , neither is his law your rule , or his light your guide , witness your own confession in tiverton epistle : therefore i say should t. c. plead onely from what of god is manifest in him , he would have very little to say , and so no marvel if he refufe to joyn issue with t. s. upon those terms . thou saist t. s. hath said , that t. c. is against the saints attaining to perfection and freedom from sin whilst in this mortal state ; and thou saist , he is not against perfection by faith in christ , their perfection to be in another ; nor is he against pressing after perfection ; but such a perfection as the quakers boast of , he is against , &c. to which i say , the perfection which the people call'd quakers , own , and press after , is the same which the saints and servants of god in all ages did press after , of which the scriptures of truth makes mention , which is , to perfect holiness in the fear of the lord , and to know him to work all their works for them , and in them , whose works are perfect in the sight of god , whereby all boasters and boasting is excluded ; and this perfection thou saist t. c. is against , and indeed i believe it ; and herein the truth of t. s. his words are verified . but what perfection or freedom from sin , such do own or press after , who are drawing iniquity with cords of vanity , and in whose souls such abominations reigns , and out of whose hands all weapons are wrested ( with which they should make war against sin ) i leave to the wise in heart to judge . it seems the perfection which you own , is at a great distance from you , and not holyness perfected in you , but in another , and so you imagine it shall be imputed yours hereafter , when you are dead , though you are perfecting wickedness and ungodliness all your life long ; and this imagination you call faith in christ ; but though we own no other perfection then that which is by faith in christ ( who is the perfection of his people , and is all in all to them ) yet except you know him to live in you , and know him to work in you both the will and the deed , even he of whom its said , that he came to do the will of god ; and so to know perfection and freedom from sin in your selves , wrought by another ; it will avail you nothing to say you own perfection in another ; for what the better are you to tell of perfection and freedom from sin in another , whilst you are imperfect , and are servants unto sin ? and what pressing after perfection or freedom from sin , is there like to be with such who affirm that god never had yet a church in the world without sin , and that who ever affirm the contrary , are hypocrites ? would any that believes this , press after that which none yet could ever attain ? or is not this to press after an impossibility ? and if by pressing after it , they should attain to it , and make confession of it , it seems they must be accounted hypocrites ; this is small encouragement to any to press after perfection or freedom from sin . but we are not ignorant what that imagined perfection is of which you speak , and which you say you press after ; for although abominations reigns in your souls , and iniquity apparently written on your foreheads ▪ heads , and that you are even drawing it as with cart-ropes , yet because you can sometimes make a hypocritical confession of this condition , and therewith mock god , ( as you confess you have done often ) this is call'd a pressing after perfection : and because you have read in the scriptures , of the righteousness of christ , you imagine that his righteousness shall be imputed yours , and serve to cover your unrighteousness ; and this is your perfection ( as you call it ) by ▪ faith in another , which you say you own and press after ; but the perfection which the people of god in all ages did press after , it seems you are against . thou railest at t. s. extreamly , charging him with hypocrisie , wretched perverting , and to be a forger of lyes , for saying t. c. hath contradicted himself in directing his epistle from tiverton , to them that are called to be saints through the immortal seed that dwelleth in them ; and yet saith , it is language beside the scripture to mention the oppressed seed ; for thou saist , he doth not say it is language beside the scripture to mention the seed within , but for the oppressed seed , he knows no such gospel expression , &c. novv to this i say , if the immortal seed be in them to whom that epistle vvas directed , and that abominations reigns in them , as in the same epistle is confess'd , i query , whether the seed in them be not oppr●st ? if yea , then t. c. is found in confusion and contradiction , and knows nothing of the immortal seed of vvhich he speaks : now where enmity is put between tvvo , if the one bears rule , then the other doth suffer oppression ; and i suppose you will grant that there is no concord or agreement , fellowship or union , betwixt the immortal seed and abomination ; for that which worketh abomination , is of the serpents seed , betvveen vvhich , and the seed immortal , enmity isput ; and vvhilst abomination reigns in you , and that iniquity is apparently vvritten upon you , and you are dravving thereof vvith cords of vanity , the serpent's seed is head in you , and the seed immortal is oppressed ; and thus the blind guide is fallen into the pit vvhich for another he had digged , vvho streins at a gnat , and vvould seem to make a man an offender for a vvord , notvvithstanding the substance of the matter by him declared , be clear and evident . thou art much offended vvith t. s. because he saith , it seems they have refused to return from their wickedness and great abominations , if t. c. may be credited , but saith he trusts they shall be found so more ; if this be to be vile , we shal yet be more vile ; for which thou utterest many bitter railing expressions against him , saying that t c. saith , if to deal faithfully with sins and sinners , if to arraign abominations , &c : if this be to be vile , we shall yet be more vile , &c. to which i say , that you have refused to return from your wickedness and great abominations , is a truth clear and apparent ; for t. c. hath endeavoured to prove you to be a church of christ , notvvithstanding your great abominations , and saith , the true churches of christ have had the same , or as great sins and abominations in them , as is confest in tiverton epistle , and that christ never had a church in the world free from sin ; and vvhether this doth not strengthen the hands of the vvicked , ( so that they cannot return from their vvickedness ) and give encouragement to such to live in sin , let all who are spiritually minded , judge : and vvhilit you are endeavouring to vindicate your selves in such a condition , and such practises , there is small hopes , or little likelyhood of your returning from that condition . and whereas he saith , if to deal faithfully , &c. be to be vile , &c. i say , hovv can such a deceitful hypocrite deal faithfully with sin or sinners , in whose own soul ( by confession ) such abominations reigns , & on whose own fore-head such iniquities are so apparently written , and out of vvhose hands sin hath wrested all weapons wherewith he should deal with it ? should not the hypocrite first pull the beam out of his own eye , and deal faithfully with his own soul in arraigning and casting out his own abominations by the power of the lord , before he go about to pull the mote out of his brothers eye , or to deal with his sins , or to arraign his abominations ? i am sure for t. c. to tell of arraigning abominations in others , whilst abominations are reigning in his own soul ; or for him to talk of dealing faithfully with sin and sinners , whilst ( by his own confession ) he is manifested to be as bad as the worst of them , ( if not the worst of all ) and hath more need to be taken under dealing , then any of those with whom he speaks of dealing with , this renders him to be so much the more vile , as t. s. hath truly said . some other false accusations thou bringst agaist t. s. in particular , and against the people called quakers in general ; as , that he pleads up their own righteousness beyond all bonds , not onely of religion , but of modesty and civillity too , and that no people upon earth are so great enemies to christ , according to the scriptures , as they ; & that none are more obedient to their own fancies & imaginations , then they , &c. and thou tells the old lye over again , saying , he calls the ordinances of christ , the ordinances of the man of sin . to all which i say , thou hast made it thy work to slander , and falsly accuse ; and for as much as thou hast been so often proved a lyar , i shall not spend time to answer every impertinency and false accusation , especially where no proof is offered by thee , for what thou affirmest ; but let it lie and rot , as the foame and filth of a tlanderous spirit , which cannot touch the innocent , nor gain credit or acceptance with any people of understanding . thou goest on with thy work propounding queries , and answering thy self , lying and perverting , slandering , and falsly accusing the innocent , digging a pit , and spreading a net for them ; but into the pit which thou hast digged for others , art thou fallen ; and in the gin which thou hast laid , is thy own feet snared . and because t. s. saith , without boasting we can speak it , to the praise of his grace who hath wrought all our works for us , and in us , that we are of god , though the whole world lieth in wickedness ; and that christ hath had , and yet hath a church without sin in this mortal estate . thou therefore queriest , whether this church without sin be not the quakers ? and thou answerest thy self , yea doubtless , if they onely are of god , and the whole world lyeth in wickedness , it must needs be them . and here thou hast proved t. c. a lyar ; for if it be an undoubted truth , that they who are of god , are a church without sin , then undoubtedly t. c. is a notorious lyar for affirming that christ never had a church without sin in this mortal estate ; for john saith , we know that we are of god , and the whole world lyeth in wickedness , 1 john 5. 9. and because they were of god , they were without sin , according to thy own reasoning . then thou queriest , whether the quakers have not dealt notoriously wicked with t. c. in denying their owning themselves to be perfect , and calling t. c. a lyar for affirming it , and now t. s. so openly and publikely not onely to confess it , but to plead for it . to which i answer ▪ thou hast herein dealt notoriously wicked with t. s. as t. c. hath done with others before : for t. s. hath not said he is perfect , nor confest that the people call'd quakers doth own themselves to be perfect ; and therefore thou art a lyar for affirming it : and because the ground or foundation of thy query is a lye , therefore i shall give no further answer to it . thou queriest , whether john pitman , jasper batt , robert wastfeild , &c : ( whom thou call'st preachers and leaders in that faction ) be members of the true church , or of the devil ? because t. s. saith , that those that remain in sin , in the unconverted and imperfect state , and are seduced and deceived , being out of the truth , they are enemies to the cross of christ , and are not the church of christ . and thou saist , the forementioned persons at a meeting at glaston with t. c. protested that they were not perfect , nor free from sin , but pressing after it ; therefore thou queriest , how they shift themselves from being enemies to the crosse of christ . i answer , though thou hast laboured much to bring forth this work of wickedness , hoping thereby to trap the innocent , yet it will not at all serve for thy purpose , for though ( in the words of the apostle ) we did in plainness , and in the simplicity and integrity of our hearts declare , ( which thou call'ft a protestation ) that we were pressing forwards towards the mark of the price of the high calling of god in christ jesus , not as though we had already attained , or were already perfect , but were pressing after it ▪ yet this doth no more prove us to be of the devil , or enemies to the cross of christ , by any thing that t. s. hath said , then the apostles words did prove him to be of the devil , or an enemie to the cross of christ ; for though we did say , not as though we had already attained , or were already perfect , yet we did confess openly to the glory of god , that we did witness him come , and to live in us , who is perfect ; and that we did believe that perfection is attainable in this life through him ▪ and that having this hope , it doth purifie our hearts , even as he is pure , who worketh all our works for us , and in us ; and that in this faith we are pressing after perfection : and of this faith did we make confession openly , as many can testifie ; and this is the faith to which vve are converted , and so vve do not remain in the unconverted estate , neither are we seduced or deceived , but are established in the eternal living truth , and not out of it ; and by the spirit of truth which vve have received , vve are able to judge of seducers and deceivers : and vve did likewise declare , that vve vvere by nature children of wrath as vvell as others ▪ and that vve had long travelled under the burthen of sin , and bondage of corruption , vvhilst the strong man armed kept the house ; and that we had known the terrors of the lord against sin : and vve did likewise say , that there is sometimes in us motions to sin , from vvhich vve are not freed , and that vve are exercised vvith temptations ; but those motions not being consented unto , nor the temptations joyned with , or entered into , but resisted in the povver of god , those motions are not imputed to us as sin ; for it is no sin to be tempted . and we did also declare , that we now vvitness the stronger come to ease us of our burthen , and to save us from our sins , and to deliver us from the bondage of corruption , that we might serve him without fear , in holiness and righteousness before him all the dayes of our lives ; and this doth not prove us to be no church of christ , or prove us to be of the devil , therefore vve are without the reach of thy envy , for vve are none of those which t. s. speakes of , who are enemies to the cross of christ ; but thou hast not contrived thy work so , as that it may serve for thy purpose ; for thou canst not strike us all at once , as it stands , which appears to be thy intention ; neither canst thou divide our testimony , so as to take us in confusion or contradiction , which thou hast laboured after ; for if we had protested ( as thou saist ) that we were not perfect , then thou hast nothing against us as to that , it being one main charge against the people called quakers , ( though a very false one ) that they say they are perfect ; and now if we have said that we are not perfect , then are we clear of that charge : but thou art not willing we should pass so , and therefore thou saist , thou dost question whether we did not lye notoriously , &c. and here through thy envy thou haft manifested thy folly , and in striking at us , thou hast wounded thy self ▪ for if we did lye notoriously in saying we were not perfect , then it will follow , that if we had said we were perfect , we had spoken truth ; and yet if any say they are perfect or free from sin , such are accounted hypocrites ; so if any confess that he hath not attained , but is pressing after perfection , he is suspected to be a notorious lyar , and if any ( through the love of god ) should confess to his glory that he is redeemed from sin and transgression , and brought into the glorious liberty of the sons of god , where he doth not commit sin , such a one is said to be an hypocrite . what work is here ! confusion with a witness ! who can escape thy slanderous tongue ? truly thou art so drunk with rage and envy , that it even darkens thy understanding , so than thou canst not see thy folly and confusion ; but because of the perverseness of thy spirit , thou errest in thy work , as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit . thou sayest , the reason why thou proposest this query , is ▪ because we ovvned t. s. to be a minister of christ , and vvould vvitness for him , and vvith him , so that doubtless vve must be one in vvitness . to which i say ▪ yea doubtless , we are one in witness , and our witness is true , and doth agree together , and thou hast lost thy labour in striving to make our witness disagree ; for our vvitness is for the truth , and in the truth , and there is union and agreement , and not confusion . and thou saist , a perfect church without sin , cannot admit of an imperfect ministry , pitman and batt being preachers amongst the quakers . i say , the church of christ cannot admit of an imperfect ministry ; for that ministry which is imperfect , is unsound , and untrue ; and such a ministry cannot be owned by the church of christ : for the sheep of christ know the voice of christ , and follows him , but will not follow imperfect , unsound voices ; and although such grievous wolves ( like thy self ) should array your selves vvith the sheeps clothing , to deceive , yet by your strange voices your imperfect ministry is knovvn ; and by the spirit of truth vvhich rules in the church of christ , are all such imperfect ministers denyed . but john pitman , and jasper batt did declare ▪ that they had received the gift of god vvhich is perfect ; and the apostle said , when he ascended up on high , he gave gifts unto men , for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry : and such who ministers from that gift of god which is perfect , their ministry is not an imperfect ministry . thou saist , thou supposest t. s. will not own two churches , the one perfect , and the other imperfect , least there should be room for you . to which i answer , t. s. can truly allow you the title of an imperfect , sinful church , or synagogue of satan , who are going on in the broad way to destruction , where you have room enough to commit very great abominations , and apparent iniquities , ( by your own confession in tiverton epistle ) but in the church of christ there is no room for such ; for the church of christ is a chaste virgin , without spot , and cannot join to any thing that is unclean , neither can any person , or any thing that is unclean , be joyned to it ; for although the gates of the holy city , new jerusalem , stand alwayes open , yet there can in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth , or that worketh abomination , or maketh a lye , but they that are written in the lambs book of life . and the church of christ hath no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness ; for they vvalk in the light of the lord , and what communion hath light with darkness ? or vvhat fellowship hath righteousness vvith unrighteousness ? therefore whilst your abominations reigns , and you are drawing iniquity , and bears the mark thereof on your fore-heads so apparently , ( according to your own confession ) there is no room for you in the church of christ , neither can you have any fellowship vvith them ; for vvhilst there is no room for christ in your hearts , nor in your affections , there is no room for you in his church ; and you confess that the world as a canker hath eaten out your affections to the lord jesus , and your minds are much , yea too much alienated from him ; but it seems by your tiverton epistle , that you vvill leave no room for your selves in the church of christ , for there you promise to take some effectual course to purge sin or sinners out of the house of god . now to purge out sin , vvould be to make such a church as t. c. saith god never had in the world ; for he saith , god never had yet any church in the world free from sin : and vvould you go about to make such a church as you have not so much as a pattern or president for ? you say in your tiverton epistle , that whosoever beholds you , may say , what singular thing do ye ? but now it seems you think to do something that is singular indeed , if you make such a church for god as t. c. saith he never had the like before : but are not you hypocrites by t. c.'s words , if you should make such a church ? for he saith , none durst say that god had ever a church in the world withous sin , but hypocrites ; and if you purge away sin out of your church , then yours vvill be a church vvithout sin , which if you should confess , then you fall under the notion of hypocrites ; but if you cannot purge out sin , then you fall upon sinners , for you promise to purge out sin or sinners ; now if you purge out sinners , do not you then exclude your selves from having any room there ? and yet this is not all that you do , onely to exclude your selves , ( if t. c. his words be true ) but you will leave no church for god at all ; for he saith , god never had a church in the world without sin ; and if he never had a church without sin in the world , and now you are promising to purge sin , or sinners out of his church , is not this to leave him no church at all , neither with sin , nor without sin ? oh read your confusion , and blush thereat , you sottish children ; what a strange piece of work have you promised to undertake , who say that god never had a church in the world without sin , and yet now you will undertake to purge sin out of his church ? and so you who are as vile as the worst of them with whom you intend thus to deal , are going about to do that which ( according to t. c.'s account ) none of the faithful servants of the lord , or ministers of christ could ever do , that is , to purge sin out of his church , and if you cannot do that , then to purge out sinners , and so exclude your selves amongst the rest , who are abominable ones by your own confession ; and when sinners are purged out os that church which did onely consist of sinners , ( for t. c. saith , they that say they are without sin , are none of the church of christ ; and if they that are without sin , be none of his church , then all that are of his church must be sinners ) i say , when all those are purged out , what becomes of that church ? or where will the place of any one of you be found ? or whereof must the church of god consist ? or must he have no church at all ? therefore mind what you are going about , left whilst you are supposing t. s ▪ will leave no room for you , in going about to purge out others , you leave no room for your selves . thou saist , t. s. hath past sentence upon all the churches that ever was in the world , to be the churches of the devil ; and that he hath likewise sentenced all the prophets and apostles in their doctrine , and the scriptures , to be all the doctrine of devils , and they the ministers of the devil , &c. because t. s. hath said , that for any to perswade men to joyne themselves with , and to be members of a church that is sinful and imperfect , is no better then a doctrine of devils . i answer ; thou art sentenced for an impudent lyar , and a false accuser ; and i am sure that lyars are of the devil ; but neither prophet nor apostle , scriptures , nor church of christ , are at all concerned in his sentence , nor comes not under it ; for none of them did ever perswade men to joyne with , or to be members of a church that is sinful and imperfect , which they must have done if t : s. had sentenced them for preaching a doctrine of devils ; but on the contrary , they did exhort the church of christ to seperate from such , and to have no fellowship with them , but to come out from amongst them , and not to touch the unclean thing ; and the prophet of the lord did complain against those that did not put a difference between the clean and the unclean ; between the holy and the prophane ; between the precious and the vile : and those that do perswade people to joyn themselves to a church that is sinful , they are the devils ministers , and not christ's , and they are adding to the devil ▪ s church , or to satan's synagogue , and are not adding to the church of christ ; and the doctrine which such do preach , is the doctrine of devils , and not the doctrine of christ , as t. s. hath truly said . and because t. s. saith , you follow cunning devised fables ; thou saist , he calls gospel ▪ ordinances cunning devised fables , and that in sum he saith , our lord christ , and his apostles , were cunning devisers of fables ▪ to which i say , deceit and falshood hath summed up the matter , and by the falseness of the account , the wickedness of the accountant is discovered , and he is thereby manifested to be a notorious lyar , and a false accuser ▪ but if honesty had cast up the sum , the account would have appeared otherwise . and i have already proved , that whilst you remain in that state where you stand at present , ( as appears by your confession in your tiverton epistle ) that all that you do , or perform in imitation of others , whilst you are not thereunto led by the spirit of god , but your rule is without you , & abomination reigns within you , though you may call it the ordinances of christ , or great gospel-ordinances , yet it is but fables and fancies of your own devisings , and such things as christ nor his apostles did ever ordain or devise for you to follow or practise ; and you might as well charge all the rest of your abominations and apparent iniquities , upon christ and his apostles , and say they were the devisers of them , as to say that christ or his apostles did devise those fables , fancies , and imaginations which you follow , plead for , practise , and call ordinances of christ ; for that which you account the best of all your doings , is as great an abomination in the sight of the lord , if not greater then the very worst action , or most apparent iniquity which you confess your selves to be guilty of ; for the very prayers of the wicked are an abomination to the lord ; and nothing will sooner or more certainly bring desolation upon you , then the setting up of those abominations in the stead of the worship of god , and the ordinances of christ , and those exorcists who adjured the unclean spirits in the name of jesus , whom paul preached , might as well say that our lord christ had devised those exorcismes which they used , because he had commanded unclean spirits to come out of people ; as you to say that christ and his apostles devised those fables which you follow and plead for , and call gospel-ordinances , because you imagine that such things were practised in the church of christ ; for it 's possible that those exorcists were as much in the words of christ and paul , as you are ; and i am sure you are as great enemies to the iife and power of christ as they were ▪ and after thou hast thus wickedly and salsly accused t. s ▪ and so impudently and grosly belyed him , thou saist , thou must have done with salthouse at present and thou thinkest for ever , unless there were more truth and honesty appearing in him . oh wonderful ! that such a notorious lyar , and such a vile dishonest person as thou hast manifested thy self to be , ( partly by thy own confession , and fully and largely proved both by thy practise , and by thy principles ) should be so impudent as to accuse another for want of truth and honesty ! but although thou mightest have hopes to shelter thy self , and to escape undiscovered by accusing the innocent of the same crimes whereof thy self art guilty , yet know , that thy covering is too narrow , for thy skirts are discovered , and thy shame and nakedness doth appear , and thy refuge of lyes cannot hide thee ; and it had been much better for thee if thou hadst ended sooner , or that thou hadst never begun this work of darkness and wickedness , wherein thou hast so desperately hazarded the loss of thy precious soul , to satisfie thy cruel , envious , blood-thirsty desires , against the innocent lambs of christ ; onely ( thou saist ) take this interpreter with you , and t. c. his answer to his epistle , and this together , and you will find them to be a choice pair of spectacles to help you to see into , and understand what you read in t. s. his books . to which i answer ▪ the truth as asserted by t. s. in his books , are so plain and clear as they stand , that whoever looks on them with a single eye , and a mind not stuft with prejudice , may easily read them , and understand them , without an interpreter ; and all who are not quite blind , and given up to believe lyes , may easily see and discover thy hypocrisie and deceit , thy railing and false accusing , thy lyes and thy confusion , without the help of a pair of spectacles . but although thou hast done with t. s. i have not yet done wth thee ▪ for i have yet to question thee concerning a most horrible false accusation twice charged in thysheet of paper , where thou saist , would not these men as truly judge and condemn saints and churches in former ages , that were subject to the like failings and passions , were it not because they know it will not be born ? else what meant the answer of a preaching-quaker , in a publike meeting of them in bristol ? one presenting something concerning the scripture to him , he answers , i came not to tell you of paul , and barnabas , and timothy , the serpents of old ▪ but we were sent to direct them to look to the light within , &c. and thou saist , the same person , at the same time , spake the same language of samuel and the prophets ; and this ( thou saist ) thou hadst from credible testimony , who was present and heard him , and proposed to query to him , whether he did own the scriptures to be a rule for christians to walk by . now to this i say , the righteous lord god of heaven and earth is witness for us against thee in this thing , that we the servants of the most high god , who are in scorn call'd quakers , do from our hearts abhor and detest any such words or thoughts concerning the holy men of god , either prophets or apostles , as thou most falsly from thy envious heart , and slanderous tongue , hast cast upon us ; and we do likewise utterly disown any such to be of us , or to have any fellowship with us , or to be permitted to speak amongst us without reproof , who should declare or hold forth any such wicked , damnable , unsound , unsavoury words , as to say that either paul , or barnabas , or timothy , or samuel , or any other of the holy prophets or apostles , were the serpents of old ; for of them ▪ and of their words , we have a more high and honorable esteem ; we being made partakers of the same eternal life , and have obtained like precious faith in which they lived , and by which they obtained a good report , and have received a measure of the same spirit by which they spoke , and from which the scriptures of truth were given forth ; and so we have the witness in our selves , of the truth of what they declared ; and i do with confidence affirm , that it cannot be proved that ever any person who is distinguished from other people by the name of quaker , did ever either in bristol , or elsewhere , either publikely or privately speak , utter , or declare these , or any such like words ; and therefore be it hereby known unto thee who art our accuser , and to all that own thee , and to all people wheresoever this shall come ▪ that thou art hereby charged and required to bring forth the author , or authors of this false accusation , which thou call'st credible testimony , that so the whole sum of this matter may be found out , to the end that those who are guilty may be discovered , and their wickedness disclosed , that to shame they may be brought , and from them and their wickedness , all that fear god may turn away , and of them beware ; and also that the innocent may be cleared , and the truth vindicated ▪ and for this cause chiefly it was that publike inquiry was made after thy name , to the end , the truth of this matter may be known ; and therefore if thou shalt refuse thus to do , then in the presence of the lord god , upon thy own head shall this false accusation be charged , to stand for ever ; and all that either own thee , or believe what thou hast said , and shall not endeavour to bring this matter to a just tryal , are not onely willing to be deceived by thee but also guilty of thy most abominable wickedness ; therefore until thou hast done according to what i have said , this also shall be numbred amongst the rest of thy lyes and false accusations . but it seems though thou hast done with t. s. thou haft not emptyed out all the abominable broth out of thy boiling pot , or unclean vessel , under which the fire of envy doth continually burn ; but john collins must also have a part of it , something to asswage thy malice , and allay thy burning heat ; and although thou canst not touch him concerning any thing which he hath written , yet thou wilt assault him with a company of lyes and false accusations , which thou hast mustered up against him , which should they be severed from the rest of that wch thou hast written , there would remain very little to be answered unto . but i shal not need to trace thee in all thy crooked waies and by-pathes , i having alreadie sufficientlie laid thee open , and discovered thy follie , and wicked lying spirit to all who have an eie open to see thee ; therefore i shall speak brieflie to some particulars , and so conclude . thou saist , he confesseth he was one with you in the form of truth . but where is that confession ? i am sure he doth not say any such thing in that book to which this sheet of thine is a pretended answer ▪ nor i think no where else ; for it is a very easie matter to prove that you are neither in the form nor power of truth , but out of both : but this he confesseth , that he was owned a brother by you , whilst running into the same excess of riot ; but since in mercie visited , he hath been hated and despitefullie used by some of you , which is not the form of truth to use any one despitefullie ▪ thou saist , a day will come that john collins , and others , shall not boast of their gain in leaving you , when they shall know it to be the saddest seperation that ever they made . and yet thou saist in the same paper , ( over , and besides all the great wickednesses , reigning abominations , and apparent iniquities , whereof you confess your selves to be guiltie in your tiverton-epistle ) thou knowest that you are bad and that you need purging , and more of the sence of the evil of your own hearts , and that you need a lamentation , &c. and wouldst thou perswade j. c. or any other , that ever they shall repent their leaving you , or repent that the lord hath seperated them from such a companie ? verilie when ever they look back upon you , and remember the deliverance that the lord hath wrought for them , in seperating them from amongst you , they have as much cause to rejoice ( if not more ) then lot had when he escaped out of sodom , or the israelites when delivered from aegyptian darkness and bondage . thou saist , they have seperated themsslves from the law and word of truth . i say , they are seperated from a companie of hypocrites , who have cast the law of truth behind their backs , and have hated instruction , and rebelled against the light , following their vain imaginations , which they call ordinances of christ , who confess they have delighted to confess , and to word it out with the lord ▪ and presently forget what manner of men and women they were , and think no more on their prayers , and so have mocked god often ; it is from such they are seperated : but to the word of truth , which is christ the light of the world , are they turned ; and his law ( which is light , which is written in the heart ) have they received ; and the word ( at which you stumble ) is a lanthorn to their feet , and a light unto their pathes , who in times past did wander with you in dark and sollitarie places , and in the valley of the shadow of death , stumbling upon the dark and barren mountains , wandering from mountain to hill , after those who cryed , lo here , and lo there ; and where you are yet wandering in your vain imaginations , who knows not the law , nor word of truth . thou saist , if you could , or dare to lye as fast as they , you could quickly be as perfect , and as free from sin as they , &c. i say , witness t. colliers writings , and this sheet of thine , whether you dare to lie , or no ; i verilie believe , more impudent liars did never appear in print ; and you have attained to as great a measure of perfection in that part of your fathers work , ( who was a liar from the beginning , and the father of it ) as any people that ever i heard of ▪ who pretend they plead for , and follow ordinances of christ : but this is not our waie of perfection or freedom from sin , it is christ the truth and the light , that is our waie of perfection , and by him alone it is that we have freedom and remission of sins , & not through lying , though you make use of that waie to cover your selves in your sins ; but the light hath discovered you , your bed is too short , and your covering too narrow ; your iniquities are apparent , and your abominations and transgressions cannot be hid ; and the day is come wherein your refuge of lyes ( unto which you have leaned , and into which you have fled for shelter from the stroke of truth ) must be swept away . thou saist , heaven and earth , and our own consciences doth witness , that what t. c. hath written concerning our principles , is truth . to which i say , that both heaven and earth , and the witness of truth in our own consciences , doth testifie against thee ▪ that thou art a most abominable lyar , and a false accuser ; and were not thy conscience seared , thou wouldst tremble to utter such damnable lyes ; but know assuredlie , that the righteous god will bring thee to judgement , where thou must give account for all thy ungodlie deeds , which thou hast ungodlie committed , and all thy hard speeches which thou hast spoken against the innocent ; and for all the lies , slanders , and false accusations which thou hast ( from the pride and naughtiness of thy malicious heart ) uttered against them : thou saist , note this one thing , how john hath learned to abuse the scriptures , because he saith , ( speaking of christ ) when he cometh in ten thousands of his saints . whereby i note , how little thou knowest of the being of christ in his saints , that seems to be offended with j. c. for speaking of the coming of christ in his saints ; maist thou not as well have accused christ and his apostles for abusing of scripture , for saying , i in them , and thou in me , ioh. 17. 23. and christ liveth in me , gal. 2. 20. and christ in you the hope of glory , col. 1. 27. and christ in you except you be reprobates ; 2 cor. 13. 5. and if in them , why not in ten thousands of them ? but what scripture is it that j. c. hath abused ? hath he quoted any scripture particularly ? or doth he say , it is thus written in such a place ? or must he be limited by thy imagination , who thinks he thus speaks , because jude saith , the lord comes with ten thousands of his saints , as thou saist the scripture reads it ? but glory to his name for ever , we know that he cometh in his saints , and that he is admired in them , though you like not to hear of it , nor believe it , as t. c. affirmed at glaston , that he believed in a christ that was in heaven , and not in the saints ; and all such reprobates who know not jesus christ in them , must know that the day is come , in which the lord cometh in thousands , and ten thousands of his saints , to execute the judgements written , and to take vengeance upon all ungodly sinners , for all their abominations wherewith they have provoked the lord to jealousie ; and therefore if you are not wholly given up to hardness of heart , and blindness of mind ( but that there is in any of you , any tenderness or breathings after the lord ) to such i say , heare , and give eare , and no longer harden your hearts , nor stiffen your necks , nor no longer rebel against the light , but depart from the tents of those wicked men with whom you walk , and come out from amongst them , and be no longer partakers with them in their sins , their reigning abominations and apparent iniquities , wherewith the lord hath been long provoked ; nor partake not with them in their vain ceremonies , and invented will-worships , which they call ordinances of christ , wherewith the lord hath been so often mocked ; but prepare to meet the lord by speedy repentance , least his wrath break forth against you ; and while ye have light , believe in the light , lest the lord turn it into darkness ; and when ye look for light , it be turned into the shadovv of death , and into gross darkness : and this in love is the counsel of him vvho loves your souls , but hates your sins , r. w. postscript . since the writing of the greatest part of this , we have received information from some of the people call'd anabaptists , that thomas collier did write the said sheet of paper , and so he is the author of that wickedness also , as an addition to his account , which is exceeding great , who even hastens to fil up his measure , that he may be rewarded according to his doings ; and indeed i verily believe , amongst all the enemies of god who hath in this day of his sons appearing listed themselves as soldiers of gogs army , and joyned themselves in the war with the dragon , against the lamb and his followers , none hath more desperately hazarded himself in the service of the prince of darknesse , then this man thomas collier , who hath ( as it were ) set himself in the fore-sront of the battel , & hath bent his tongue like his bow , for lyes , to shoot at the innocent , and yet is so impudent as to say , if he could , or dare to lye as fast as we , he might quickly be as perfect and as free from sin as we ; when as those very books that he hath written against , and concerning the people call'd quakers , we can justly account above 150. lyes that he hath uttered ; and it is high time for all people who hitherto hath owned and followed him , to beware of him , and not to partake with him in his sins , least they also be partakers of his plagues . r. w. the end . a publick dispute betwixt john tombs ... respondent, john cragge, and henry vaughan ... opponents, touching infant-baptism, the fifth of september, 1653 ... occasioned by a sermon preached the day before, by mr. tombs, upon st. mark 16.16 ... : also a sermon preached by mr. cragge, the next lords day following, upon the same text, wherein the necessity of dipping is refuted, and infant-baptism asserted. tombes, john, 1603?-1676. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a62871 of text r9749 in the english short title catalog (wing t1813). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 152 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 84 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a62871 wing t1813 estc r9749 13283223 ocm 13283223 98780 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a62871) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 98780) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 440:9) a publick dispute betwixt john tombs ... respondent, john cragge, and henry vaughan ... opponents, touching infant-baptism, the fifth of september, 1653 ... occasioned by a sermon preached the day before, by mr. tombs, upon st. mark 16.16 ... : also a sermon preached by mr. cragge, the next lords day following, upon the same text, wherein the necessity of dipping is refuted, and infant-baptism asserted. tombes, john, 1603?-1676. cragge, john, gent. vaughan, henry, sir, 1587?-1659? [21], 111 p. printed for h. twyford, n. brook, j. place ..., london : 1654. added engraved false t.p. there is some print show-through and some pages are marked; signature a2 has print faded in filmed copy. beginning-p. 15 photographed from bodleian library copy and inserted at the end. reproduction of original in british library. eng anabaptists -early works to 1800. infant baptism -early works to 1800. a62871 r9749 (wing t1813). civilwar no a publick dispute betwixt john tombs, b.d. respondent. john cragge, and henry vaughan, m.a. opponents, touching infant-baptism, the fifth of tombes, john 1654 27107 6 250 0 0 1 0 98 d the rate of 98 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-01 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2005-01 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the anabaptists anotamized and silenced in a publique dispute the man̄er of the anabaptists dipping their laying on of hands their washing of feete the disputation a publick dispute betwixt john tombs , b. d. respondent . john cragge , and henry vaughan , m. a. opponents , touching infant-baptism , the fifth of september , 1653. in the church of st. maries in abergavenie in monmothshire . occasioned by a sermon preached the day before , by mr. tombs , upon st. mark . 16.16 . he that believeth , and is baptized , shall be saved , but he that believeth not , shall be damned . also a sermon preached by mr. cragge , the next lords day following , upon the same text : wherein the necessity of dipping is refuted , and infant-baptism asserted . london , printed for h. twyford , n. brook , j. place , and are to be sold in vine-court middle temple , the angel in cornhill , and at furnivals-inn-gate in holborn . 1654. to his reverend friend , i. t. p. grace , mercy , and peace be multiplyed . sir , i received your letter , full of zeal , and christian piety , the contents whereof may be reduced to these six heads , wherein you desire resolution ; first , what my sense is of the anabaptists ; secondly , when was the spring and rise of them ; thirdly , what is the cause of this present growth , and increase of them ; fourthly , why they are permitted ; fifthly , what i think of disputes and conferences had with them ; sixthly , a true relation of that had with us of late , ( which you say is variously reported ) of all which briefly i 'le endeavour to give satisfaction . for the first , i referr you to the sermon , and conference here following , to the harmonies and confessions of the reformed churches , of all churches since the apostles , especially the western , where you shall find universalitie , antiquity , and succession ( besides many pregnant places of scripture ) pleading for infant-baptism ; and that ( as austin saies ) which the whole church holds , was never begun by any councel , but alwaies observed , cannot otherwise be believed , but that it came from the apostles . for the second , the spring and rise of anabaptism , as all errours , so it had its beginning after truth , the husbandman first sowed good corn , then the enemy tares ; no age was free : in the first hundred years arose the ebionites , chiliasts , and gnosticks ; in the second , the marcionites , valentinians , and montanists ; in the third , the novatians , sabellians , and manichees ; in the fourth , the arrians , donatists , and eunomians ; in the fifth , nestorians , eutychians , and patripassians ; in the sixth , jacobites , armenians , and monothelites ; in which time the mysterie of iniquity began more fully to work , which was first nascent , then crescent , then regnant , then triumphant . and no sooner appeared a reformation in luther's time , but there were herods that sought the life of this babe , dragons watching while the woman was travelling , to devour the child ; amongst whom the anabaptists of germany were most venemous ; the first author whereof was one nicholas stock , then phipher , knipperdoling , munster , with their tayler-king john beccold of leyden , who gave out that he had a commission from heaven to destroy all nations that would not submit to his gospel , and be rebaptized ; raging with sword and persecution , till he was taken , and being examined by exquisite tortures , confessed he received his doctrine from an impure spirit ; there you have the spring and rise of it . now for the third , the present growth , and increase of it , the reasons may be many ; 1. times of division , wherein the hedge of discipline is broken down ; liberty in religion is like free conversing without restraint , or watch in time of pestilence , one house easily infects a whole city . 2. satan's malice , like a river , the further it goes , the deeper , and fiercer . 3. the corruption of man's nature , more inclinable to errour than truth . 4. the fitness of the engin for devastation , and ruinating all former churches , under colour of first-baptisms nullity , gathering of new ones ( after their own mould ) out of the old ruins , by re-baptizing . 5. the pretence that children are uncapable of church-membership , or communion of saints , as if there were not the same capacity under the gospel , which was under the law . 6. false allegation that infant-baptism is occasion of loose living , as if the native jews that were sealed when infants , were more dissolute than the proselytes . 7. to limit it to ripe years , increases piety , as if jews , and turks , and their own rebaptized converts , were not more frequently guilty of apostasie and hyprocrisie . 8. not understanding that infants church-membership in the old testament , is not repealed , but confirmed in the new . 9. a carnal estimation that the covenant made with abraham was partly carnal , of which circumcision is a part , as if godliness in both testaments had not the promise of this life , and of the life to come 10. that circumcision was the seal of righteousness of faith to abraham , and not his posterity . 11. that the covenant was made with abraham , and his spiritual seed onely , and not with visible professors . 12. that there is no such thing as national churches , though christ saies , make disciples of all nations , and isaiah saies , all nations shall flow in , &c. yet ( they say ) all churches must be gathered by actual profession , as well in christian nations , as amongst turks and pagans . 13. because we have no particular instance in terminis , that any infants were baptized , and because they are not expresly named in the precept , as if generals did not include particulars , as well for infants as old men . 14. denying equivalencies , and necessary consequences from scripture . 15. a vilifying of the judgement and persons of all godly and learned men of this present , and former ages , building up their rotten foundations upon their ruins . 16. temporal interests of the lowest of the people , which while they dream it s countenanced by men in power , cry hosanna to day , and perhaps crucifie to morrow . 17. a pretending to the spirit of god ; numa pompilius feigned that he conversed with the goddess egeria , minos with jupiter in the cave , solon with the delphian apollo , mahomet with the angel gabriel ; montanus , and the shakers , with the holy ghost ; the white witches , with the spirit in the shape of a dove , and all but to palliate their unfound opinions and practises . let not his soul prosper that does not acknowledge and thirst after the true spirit of god , yet let us try the spirits , and not believe every lying spirit . 18. the learning , subtilty , and industry , of some anabaptists , to gain proselytes ; arrius , pelagius , marcion , were not wiser in their generation than they , to inveagle the poor simple people , especially women and inferiour tradesemen , which in seven years can scarce learn the mysterie of the lowest profession , think half seven years enough ( gain'd from their worldly imployments ) to understand the mysterie of divinity , and thereupon meddle with controversies , which they have no more capacity to pry into , than a batt to look up into the third heaven . these , and many more , are the causes of the increase of anabaptism . now , for the fourth , you enquire why they are permitted , and their books printed , and published , seeing those of arrius of old , dr. pocklington's , and mr. archer's of late ( more innocent ) were burned ? to satisfie you in this , something is to be imputed to the providence of god , something to the wisdome of the state . the providence of god , who suffers errours , 1. that truth by opposition may more diligently be searched out . 2. that the sincerity and constancy of the faithfull may be tryed . 3. that the impenitent , and proud in spirit , may be blinded and hardned . the wisdome of state , who like wise chirurgions , will not launce a turgid ulcer , till it be ripe ; a skilfull physician , that will not purge some floating humours , till they be setled . therefore the late parliament declared , that they would not have them cudgell'd , but perswaded out of their errours . the two lights of our goshen ( though they differ in judgment from them ) endeavour not to force them , but by sweet insinuations and arguments to win them ; besides , some of them have been esteemed godly , amongst which mr. tombs may be ranked ; who knows but that may be verified of him , that was of cyprian , non videt haec , ut videat meliora , he sees not these things , that he may see better things ? god , it may be , suffers him to fall , with peter , that his rise may be more glorious , tu conversus , confirma fratres , that being converted , he may strengthen his brethren ; will burn his stubble , hay , wood , with the spiritual fire of the word , or affliction , that his gold may be the purer . fifthly , you enquire whether it may be fit to dispute , and conferr with them , seeing their doctrine eats as a canker , for which cause the empress would not suffer her son theodosius to discourse with the heretick eunomius . to which i answer ; the sword of the spirit , which is the word of god , is the onely weapon to wound the hairy scalp of false teachers ; with this , christ confounded the sadduces ; st. peter , simon magus ; athanasius , the arrians ; austin the pelagians , and manichees . there are none that speak against seasonable disputes , but either those that understand them not , or with spiritual pride storm against those that are gifted with that faculty above them , or they that cannot endure that their errours be unmasked , and their soars galled ; camels , conscious of their deformity , trouble the water , foul faces love not the looking-glass . true it is , we ought to receive the weak in faith , not to doubtfull disputations ; but when false teachers have infused poyson , may we not apply an antidote ? when they have sowed darnel , and cockle , may not we weed them out ? this is to set towns and cities on fire , and to deny buckets to quench them ; to suffer invasions , and to permit none to rally together an army to resist them . the disputes at bewdly , hereford , and ross , have been successfull to astonishment ; and in this last at abergavenie ( though tumultuary , and on a sudden ) hath appeared the finger of god ; he that with spittle , and clay , opened the eyes of the blind , overthrew the walls of jericho with the sound of ramms-horns , with these weak means hath wrought strong effects , that no creature may glory in the arm of flesh . to the relation whereof ( in the last place ) and the occasion of it , i come now ; which was thus ; mr. tombs for several months together being importuned by letters and messengers , came at length to water that , which mr , miles , prosser , and others had planted , or ( as some think ) to confirm a child lately baptized in london ; when he entred the pulpit , great expectation was , what mountains would bring forth ; his text was mark . 16.16 . whence he concluded , that infant-baptism was a nullity , a mockery ; no baptism but by dipping , or plunging , was lawfull ; all that would be saved must be re-baptized , or baptized after profession ; that there was no such thing as infant-baptism in the primitive times , but that it came in with other corruptions , upon unsound grounds ; and challenged the whole congregation to speak , if they had any thing to say to the contrary . there were many well learned that heard him , especially two , mr. bonner a neighbouring minister , and mr. vaughan schoolmaster of the town , formerly a fellow of jesus college in oxford , who both for the present kept silence , onely mr. bonner closed with him in the way to his lodging , and told him , that he had delivered some things contrary to that he had read in the antients , and other things that grieved his spirit to hear , and desired therefore to conferr with him thereabout the next morning : he slighted the grave old gentleman , with as much contempt , as austin the monk did the british commissioners at bangor , yet told him , that he would tarry in the town till such an hour ; in the mean time , the greatest part of the people were offended , stagger'd , or scrupled , some not knowing what to think of their own , their children , and their ancestours salvation . the anabaptists that night , and especially the next morning , triumphed , saying , where are your champions now ? some of them are struck dumb , others dare not shew their faces , whil'st master tombs is in the town , naming mr. cragge , another neighbouring minister ; the report whereof being brought unto him , he repaired instantly to the town , and meeting with mr. bonner ; and mr. vaughan , they went all together to mr. tombs , where he was at a private house ; little was said there , by reason of the throng of people pressing in ; but it was agreed upon , that they should meet in the church , or publick meeting place , at one a clock , which was done accordingly ; mr: tombs took the pulpit , the opponents a seat over against it : mr. bonner was preparing to give the on●et , but a gentleman disswaded him , by reason of his age , and bodily infirmities , lest it should impair his health ; mr. vaughan began , mr. cragge succeeded , continuing the opposition betwixt them for almost five hours . when the dispute was ended , mr. cragge was desired by many godly persons to preach upon the same text mr. tombs had done , the lords day following , which he did accordingly ; i send you here enclosed the sum of all ; a copy of mr. vaughan's conference , which a friend procured me from his own hand , mr. cragge's sermon and dispute , i took from his own mouth by short-writing ; you have the disputations first , then the sermon ; the lord bless them to you , and you to his glory , which shall be the prayer of him , who is yours to serve you in the lord jesus , j. w. to the reader . courteous reader , to please my self , and perhaps thee , i shall displease many ; first , my friend , for making his private token a publick frolick . secondly , mr. tombs , for bringing him in this last catastrophe wounded in the heel by troilus and paris , who vaunts that in former scenes , ( like achilles , so far as he was dipped in the river by his mother thetis ) he hath been unpierced by the weapons of the stoutest hectors . thirdly , mr. cragge , and mr. vaughan , for exposing their disputes , conceived in an hour and an half , and the sermon contrived in a day and a half , to long censure . fourthly , the anabaptists ( as they will deem ) for too uncourteously galling their soars . fiftly , their adversaries the paedobaptists , for too courteously , or ( as they will fancy ) partially concealing mr. tombs harsh language , and his favourites incivilities . sixtly , the learned in general , for bringing these nilus-like hatched births in a moment into the open amphitheater with those elephants that have been ten years in conception . my apologie for the whole is as followeth ; the bulk of this manual is small , some may reach to the price of it , that cannot of those larger volumes ; may have time to read it , that cannot them . the method of this is facile , the language plain , some will understand this , that cannot them . besides , we naturally love the transactions of those , whose persons we know ; some heard them transiently as they were delivered , and would be glad deliberately to read them ; some heard them not , but at the second hand , as they were variously reported ( according to the judgement and affection of the relator ) who would be willing to know the business truly stated . if any of the parties cencerned find themselves aggrieved , and intend to bend their stile against me , i 'le answer them at the day of judgement , when the secrets of all hearts shall be disclosed : in the mean time , if truth may be advanced , errour discouraged , godliness countenanced , hypocrisie unmasked , thou edified , god glorified , i have mine ends . farewell . yours in the lord , i. t. p. a relation of a conference had between mr. john tombs b. d. and henry vaghan m. a. in st. maries church in abergevennie , sept. 5. 1653. touching infants baptism , briefly , and punctually set down to the sense of both . v. infants may lawfully be baptized ; for they may be admitted into the covenant of grace now by baptism , as they were before , and under the law , admitted into the same covenant by circumcision . t. i deny your consequence . v. you must deny it , either because the covenant of grace made with abraham , and his seed , is not the same in substance with that which is now actually in force with beleevers , and their children , or secondly , because baptism succeedeth not in the room of circumcision . t. i could deny your division : yet i say , to gratifie you , for both those reasons . v. for the former . that the covenant made with abraham , and his seed , is the same which is now actually in force with beleevers , appears by comparing genes . 17.2 . with galat. 3.14 . where it is clearly set forth , that the promise made to abraham , came unto the gentiles through jesus christ . t. here he distinguisheth of a towfold seed of abraham , the naturall , and spirituall , and saith , that the covenant was made with abrahams spirituall seed , and not the naturall . v. even all the children of abraham were circumcised , and consequently admitted into the covenant , not one excepted ; for every man-child was to be circumcised , gen. 17.10 . it appears by what hapned to moses for not circumcising his child , exod. 4.24 . even ishmael was circumcised , genes . 17.23 : who belonged not to the promise , but was of the naturall seed . t. ishmael , and the naturall children of abraham were admitted to the externall part , namely outward privileges , and temporall blessings , and not to the internall , or spirituall part thereof . by the internall part he must needs mean that part of it expressed gen. 17.7 . in these words , to be a god unto thee , and unto thy seed after thee , and in the end of v. 8. i will be their god . to justifie this his distinction , he referred us to rom. 9. and i think v. 8. where the children of the promise are contradistinguished from the children of the flesh , or the naturall children of abraham ; so that the covenant was made not to the naturall children of abraham , but to such of them as were elect , and faithfull . v. this covenant was made alike in the same extent , and latitude , promiscuously with all the seed of abraham ; and those that lost the promise , and the benefit of this covenant ( which men you call the naturall seed ) lost it not because they were not at first comprehended in the covenant , but because of their own unbeleef , rom. 11.20 . i confesse that the children of isaack are , rom. 9. called the children of the promise , not in regard of any peremtory election , or designation to faith , and salvation , or on the contrary ▪ of any absolute reprobation of the seed of ishmael . for if it had been pauls designe to declare the children of ishmael , yea the greatest part of the jewes , to have been rejected by a certain absolute decree , why should he v. 1.2 . so much lament their incredulitie ? wish himself accursed for their sakes , v. 3. and rom. 10. v. 1. desire , and pray for their conversion ? since upon such an absolute decree of reprobating them , all that happened to them was inevitable . but the children of isaack are called the children of promise , first , because they onely were to inherite the land of canaan ; and secondly , because christ according to the flesh was to descend from the progenie of isaack , not of ishmael . i might have added , that if none but the elect , and faithfull , can be admitted into the covenant , there is no subject left for the ordinance of baptism , it being impossible for man to know who are elect , spirituall , and true believers . neither can you baptize with right , or safety , all such grown persons as you baptize , since you cannot be assured that they are elect , spirituall , or true believers , ( revel. 2.17 . ) nor have any light to guide you , save that of charitable opinion , and conjecture . again , it being admitted that none but the spiritually , elect , and believing , can be baptized , the same charitie that swayes your judgment for grown persons , must much rather move you to hope the best of innocent infants , guiltie of no actuall sin , since it hopes all things , and thinks no evill , 1. cor. 13.2 . they may have faith ( in semine & habitu ) in the seed ( as they have the habit of principles , and reason ) tho they cannot exercise it till ripe years . 3. though they have not actuall faith , yet the faith of their parents may , and doth , put them into a capacitie of being admitted into the covenant , nor is it news that the parents faith advantageth the children . joh. 4.50 . t. i could wish you could prove that infants of believers might be admitted to baptism by virtue of their parents faith . v. they were admitted into the same covenant by circumcision , into which we are admitted now by baptism , but circumcision is a seal of the righteousness of faith , rom. 4.11 , 12. whence it will follow , that either they had the righteousness of faith inherently in themselves , or that of their parents imputed to them ( chuse you whether ) or else it will follow that circumcision was a false seal . t. it is not said there that circumcision was the seal of righteousness of the childrens faith , but onely of abrahams own faith in particular . v. but the covenant , or promise , was the same and alike to abraham , and his seed , rom. 4.13 . gen. 17.7 . and alike to us believers , and to our children , act. 2. 39. 2. this truth appears yet further from . 1. cor. 7 14. where we find that the faith of either of the parents makes the children holy , at least in that degree of holyness ( which is the meanest imaginable ) to be in capacitie of being admitted into the same covenant with their parents . t. the scope of the apostle here , is to satisfie a scruple of the corinth . viz. whether the believing yoak-fellow might live in the enjoying and use of the unbelieving yoak-fellow ? he resolves them in the affirmative , saying , the unbelieving husband is sanctifyed in ( as 't is in the greek ) or to ( not for , or by ) the wife , &c. that is , he may lawfully use , and enjoy her , and she enjoy him — and their children holy , that is , legitimate . v. but here is certainly some speciall privilege set forth to the children of believers accruing to them from the believing parents . besides , it had been no news to tell them they might have the lawfull use of one another , and that their children were legitimate , and no bastards . for where both husband , and wife were unbelievers , no man ever doubted but their enjoyment of one another was lawfull , and their issue legitimate . t. the case is meant where both parties at their entrance into marriage were unbelievers , but afterwards one of them happens to be converted , whether then they might cohabit , and enjoy the use of one another . v. though this were granted ( which i shall not contend about ) yet the apostles sense can not be of the lawfull use , and enjoyment of each other , for the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} sanctifyed , never denotes to be lawfull . or if ever you shew me that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is render'd holy , signifies lawfull , i shall urge no further . t. ther 's that acception of the word 1. tim. 4.4 , 5. every creature of god is good , and not to be refused , if it be received with thanksgiving , for it is sanctified ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) by the word of god , and prayer here sanctifyed is for lawfully used , as standing in opposition to that which is refused . v. the sense is , that such use of the creature is pleasing to god , as acknowledging him the authour , and sender ; for suppose a sinfull man eat his meat without invoking god for a blessing , hath he not a lawfull use of the creature ? t. his next instance was 1. thes. 4.3 , 4 , 7. where sanctification is used for chastitie , and might hear that sense in this place , 1 cor. 7.17 . in agitation . v. i deny it , for sanctification is there used in its full latitude , as appears by the context . but i will descend to prove the second ground of my consequence , at the beginning , which you denied , viz. that baptism succeeded in the room of circumcision . mr. tombs had told us that it was impossible , for then women should not be baptized , because they were not circumcised , [ which is bellarmines argument ] to which i answered , that indeed the males only were mentioned in the covenant of circumcision , for in the eyes of all laws whatsoever , the women are but as ignoble creatures , and therefore the usuall stile of laws , and covenants is , si quis and qui in the masculine [ except such as particularly respect their sex ] 2. that they are included in the word seed , and because descended from man , did partake of the privilege , and promise annexed to the covenant . [ i thought also to have told him , that i well knew that before christs time , baptism and circumcision were both practised on the proselites called proselitae justitiae ( as i could have shewed out of severall authours ) yet that hinder'd not , but that baptism now under the gospell should be the sole means to admit us into the same covenant , into which the jews were admitted by circumcision . even as the bread and wine were taken by the jews at the eating of the passeover , and now that the jewish passeover is abrogated , the bread and wine were only by christ retained to commemorate his passion , the true passeover . 1. cor. 5.7 . and in like manner when circumcision was abolished , yet was baptism retained to admit the infants of christians , as circumcision admitted them of the jews ; but the time , and his close manner of disputing not permiting this enlarging by recourse to the originall , and institution of baptism , which served more to illustrate than convince , i kept to the tedder allowed , and came at length to prove that proposition ] from col. 2.11.12 . where 1 the circumcision of christ is set in opposition to the jewish circumcisition made with hands . 2. an explanation of what is meant by the circumcision of christ in these words , being buryed with him in baptism . t. paul here disswades them from the use of jewish ceremonies ( which some would have introduced amongst them ) and particularly of circumcision , because all those were but shadowes , but the body and realitie was of christ . v. t' is confessed the apostle speaks here against imposers of jewish ( and also pythagorean ) doctrines , and practises : but see ye not here a double circumcision , and the circumcision of christ described by being buried with him in baptism . the word buried implyeth but the resemblance betwixt christs death , and resurrection , with what is done in baptism , where there is an immersion or plunging in the water , to shadow his buriall , and emersion or rising up out of the water , to represent his resurrection , which resemblance is more fully set forth rom. c. 6. t. here mr. tombs interrupted me , and desired the people to take notice of my ingenuous confession , that baptism was then practised by plunging . he read also a passage out of casaubons annot. on the new test. where he saith that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to baptise , denoteth a plunging of the whole body &c. had he read out the passage , he might have found how that great scholar affirmes this to be a slender argument against such as only sprinkle at baptism , for saith he , the vertue and efficacie of baptism consistes not in that , meaning the manner of washing . v. i shall satisfie the auditours herein anon , in the mean time i desire answer to my argument , the analogie between circumcision and baptism being so evident in this place ; but receiving none , i addressed my self to the people , according to promise , saying , that indeed it seemed to me that for some centuries of years , that baptism was practised by plunging : for sprinkling was brought first in use by occasion of the clinicks ( as cyprian epist : a magnum relates ) being men which deferred their baptism till some extremitie of sickness , who then in such case were only sprinkled with water , lest the plunging of their bodies might over-offend them in that feeble desperate condition . t. here take notice that sprinkling took its rise from a corrupt custome . v. though plunging be confessed the more antient way , yet is this no ground for that over-uncharitable speech of yours , in your sermon yesterday : that our baptism , meaning of infants , and by sprinkling , was but a nullitie , and mockery , which concludes our selves , and all our auncestours , even all in the western church for 1500. years , under damnation . for the church hath power upon the sight of any inconvenience , and for order and decencies sake , to alter the circumstantials and externalls of any ordinance . t. what have they to doe to alter any thing from the form of christs institution ? v. that they have such a power is confessed by all divines , and he is none that denies it , yea i believe it is acknowledged by your own practice . t. wherein ? v. in the administration of the lords supper , which was done by christ in the evening , and also then by his apostles after their love-feastes : the whole church of god , ( and your self i suppose ) take it in the morning , which custome hath taken place , and obtained every where for very many ages , even from their dayes who immediatly succeeded the apostles . thus advising him to be wise to sobriety , and cease to imbroyl the church of god ( so infinitly torn already ) and to submit to the judgment , and scarce-interrupted practise of the western churches , even for 1500. years , to which gods providence could not be so far wanting , as to suffer them to fall into such an errour of admitting and retaining a baptism ( which in his account was none ) we broke off , a relation of the dispute had between mr. john tombs b. d. respondent , and john cragge mr. a. opponent , in st. maries church in abergevennie , septemb. 5. 1653. touching infant-baptism . mr. cragge having briefly expressed that he was forced to undertake this task , on a sudden , and unprovided , against so experienced a champion ; desired , first , if he should fail , the cause might not suffer prejudice in mens opinions for his sake . 2. that libertie might be granted of a premeditate , and treatable dispute hereafter , not doubting that if he should but study the question so many hours as mr. tombs hath done dayes , so many dayes as he hath done weeks , so many weeks as he months , or so many months as the years , the truth was so evident on his side , he would not fear ( maugre all opposition ) to make it clear . in the mean time trusting to gods assistance , ( whose cause it was ) he would attempt it , beginning with this enthymema . c. some infants may not be baptized , therefore some infants may be baptized . t. having repeated , he denyed the consequence . c. which he proved thus , subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true . but these , viz : ( some infants may not be baptised , some infants may be baptized ) are subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter . therefore they may be both true . t. having repeated the syllogism , he said there were four terms in it . c. he enquired where ? t. he answered in these words ( may be both true ) in the premisses , and ( are both true ) in the conclusion . c. he returned , that was mr. tombs syllogism , none of his , reciting that distick of martial . quem recitas meus est ô fidentine logismus , sed male dum recitas , incipit esse tuus . t. repeating it over again after him , said that , c. which he took thus away ; that which proves the thing denied , is sufficient ; but that subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true , proves the thing denied , that some infants may not be baptized , some infants may be baptized ; therefore it is sufficient . t. he denyed the minor , tho it be an axiom , subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true , yet it was not consequent that these subcontrary contingent propositions ( some infants may not be baptized , some infants may be baptized ) may be both true . c. which was proved thus . that which is affirmed and predicated of the species , may , and is affirmed of every individuum , and particular under that species : but it is affirmed of the species , that subcontrary propositions in a contingent matter may be both true , therefore it may be affirmed of these particular propositions ( some infants may not be baptized , some infants may be baptized ) that they may be both true , t. he said it was a fallacy , he went about to entrappe him , in confessing that subcontrary propositions may be both true , where the subject is capable , but here the subject , ( to wit infants ) are not capable of baptism . c. then replyes he , they are not contingent ( which is here required ) but necessary propositions , in materiâ necessaria , if the subject be not capable , but we speak of contingent propositions , the predicate whereof may be affirmed or denied of the subject without contradiction ; which while he was framing into a syllogism , t. mr. t. interrupted him , saying , what would the man say if he could speak ? c. you love not to hear truth speak , but would strangle it in the birth , like the egyptian midwives ; but to give you further satisfaction , i will prove that they are actually both true , especially that some infants may be baptized , for of the other there is no controversie . which he did thus , to whom belongs the essence of baptism , they may be baptized ; but to some infants belongs the essence of baptism ; therefore some infants may be baptized . t. he denyed the minor , that the essence of baptism did belong to some infants . c. which was proved thus ; to whom belongs the definition of baptism , to them belongs the essence ; but to some infants belongs the definition of baptism ; therefore to some infants belongs the essence of baptism . t. he answered first to the major , ( to whom belongs the definition of baptism , to them belongs the essence , ) it was idem per idem , proving of the same thing by the same . c. to which was replyed , why then sayes aristotle , that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the definition is a manifestation of the essence , and logicians describe a definition , to be explicatio rei essentiae , the expression of the essence of a thing , now that which expresses a thing ; and which is expressed , are two distinct things . then he denied the minor , which was proved thus . c , the definition of baptism , as of all other relations , is made up of the fundament , correlative , and termini . but all these three fundamentum , correlatum , & terminus , belong to infants ; therefore the definition of baptism belongs to infants . t. he denied the major , that baptism was a relation , or was made up of those ingredients . c. he replyed , that seemed strange to him , seeing all the divines , and logicians that he had read , affirmed baptism to be a relation , and it was evident , it could be put in no other predicament , ( as might be proved by induction , but that the people understood it not ) seeing the whole nature of baptism is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in relation to another . t. he said he cared not for authorities , but bid him prove it . c. which he did thus ; every sacrament is a relation ; but baptism is a sacrament ; therefore baptism is a relation . t. he said he might deny both propositions , first the major , for any thing he knew , every sacrament was not a relation ; and the minor too , that baptism was a sacrament , for the word sacrament was an invention of man , not grounded upon scripture . c. which both propositions together were proved thus ; that which is an outward , and visible sign , of an inward , and invisible grace , is both a relation , and a sacrament ; but baptism is an outward and visible sign , of an inward , and invisible grace ; therefore it is both a relation , and a sacrament . t. he denyed the minor , that baptism was an outward , and visible sign , of an inward , and invisible grace . c. he told him , it was st. austens definition , avouched by learned men in succeeding ages , confirmed , and approved by the church of england in the old catechism . t. mr. tombs said he looked for artificiall or divine arguments , not humane testimonies , at which answer while mr. c. seemed to be astomished , he took occasion to triumph , contumeliously saying he never heard such an argument . c. to which he replyed , nor alexander ever saw such a knot , as the gordian , which made him cut it , when he could not untie it ; you teach me by experience to know that there is no disputing against them that deny all principles ; as where you think the people doe not understand , you make no scruple to deny clear truths in logick , and divinitie ; therefore i see i must goe to plain scriptures , that all the people may understand the absurdities . now that the definition of baptism ( which was the thing denyed ) belongs to infants , i prove thus . if god institute baptism for infants , christ merited it for them , and they stand need of it , then to infants belongs the definition of baptism ; but god instituted , christ meritted , and infants stand need of baptism ; therefore to infants belongs the definition of baptism . t. he denyed the minor , that god did not institute baptism for infants , christ did not merit it for them , nor infants stand in need of it . c. which he promised to prove in order , first that god did institute baptism for infants . he that appointed infants church-members under the gospell , did institute baptism for them ; but god appointed infants church-members under the gospell ; therefore god did institute baptism for infants . t. he said first the major might be questioned , because , to be church-members ( whereas he should have said church-members under the gospell ) and to be baptized , were not termini convertibiles . c. he confessed it , for infants under the law were church-members , and yet not baptized , but circumcised , and before the law church-members , and yet neither circumcised , nor baptized ; but under the gospell they were so convertible , that all that were baptized , were church-members , and all that were church-members were to be baptized , which is that which he affirmed now , and is a truth , a truth so clear , that mr. tombs confesses it all along in his books , and upon that confessed ground , mr. baxter goes in many of his arguments . t. he would have denyed it , till a gentleman told him , that he heard him affirm the same in his sermon the day before , then he denyed the minor , that god did institute infants church-members under the gospell . c. that i 'l confirm ( sayes he ) with a threefold cord , which will not easily be broken , before the law , under the law , under the gospell , which he framed into an argument thus those whom god did promise before the law , foretell under the law , actually receive into covenant under the gospell , those god did appoint church-members under the gospell ; but god did promise before the law , foretell under the law , and actually receive infants into covenant under the gospell ; therefore god did appoint infants church-members under the gospell . t. he denyed the minor , that god did not promise before the law , foretell under the law , and actually receive infants into covenant under the gospell . c. which was proved in order , first that god did promise before the law that infants should be in covenant under the gospell , thus . that which god did promise to abraham , was before the law ; but god did promise to abraham , that infants should be in covenant under the gospell ; therefore god did promise before the law , that infants should be in covenant under the gospell . the minor being denyed , he proved out of gen. 17.7 . i will establish my covenant between me , and thee , and thy seed after , thee , in their generations , for an everlasting covenant . to be a god unto thee , and unto thy seed after thee . thus framing his argument ; he that makes an everlasting covenant to abraham , and his seed after him in their generations , promised that infants should be in covenant under the gospell ; but god makes an everlasting covenant with abraham , and his seed after him in their generations ; therefore god promised that infants should be in covenant under the gospell . t. he denyed the major , saying , that everlasting signifyed onely a long time , not that it should be so under the gospell to the worlds end ; and was to be interpreted by the verse following , i will give unto thee the land of canaan for an everlasting possession , and yet the jews are now dispossessed of canaan . c. they are now dispossest , but shall be possessed of it again at their conversion , and so have an everlasting possession , in the type to the end of the world , in the antitype for ever , but that the covenant that god made with abraham is to continue to the end of the world appears in that it is a gospell covenant ; that which is a gospell covenant is to continue to the end of the world ; but the covenant that god made with abraham and his seed to all generations , is a gospell covenant , gal. 3.8 . and the scripture foreseeing that god would justifie the heathen , through faith , preached the gospell before to abraham , saying , in thee shall nations be blessed ; therefore it is to continue to the end of the world . t. without repeating , he confusedly answer'd thus , that it was an everlasting covenant , and to continue to the end of the world , but not to infants . c. he told him first that it was a denying of the conclusion , then took away his answer thus ; if god command infants to stand before him , in covenant , then it is to continue to infants ; but god commands infants to stand in covenant before him ; therefore it is to continue to infants . deut. 29.10 , 11. yee stand this day all of you before the lord , your god , your captains of your tribes , your elders , and your officers , with all the men of israel , your litle ones . t. he said that he should have proved that it should continue to infants to the worlds end , for he did not deny but that infants in some sense were in covenant under the law , but not under the gospell . c. yes under the gospell ; if christ hath obtained a more excellent ministrie , and is a mediator of a better covenant , which is established upon better promisses , then if infants were in covenant under the law , they are in covenant under the gospell ; but heb. 8.6 . christ hath obtained a more excellent ministry , was a mediator of a better covenant , which was established upon better promises ; therefore if infants were in covenant under the law , they are in covenant under the gospell . t. he denyed the consequence of the major , that tho the covenant of the gospell was a better covenant than that of the law , yet infants were not in covenant as well under the gospell , as under the law . c. which was thus taken away ; that which unchurches the one half of christendome , and leaves them no ordinary means of salvation , can not be a better covenant ; but to deny infants to be in covenant , unchurches the one half of christendome , and leaves them no ordinary means of salvation ; therefore it cannot be a better covenant . t. without repeating the syllogism , or denying either of the premisses , or formally applying any distinction , he said , the covenant under the gospell was made onely with the spirituall seed of abraham . c. which was thus disproved ; if the covenant was made in the same manner , and extent , to the gentiles , as to the jewes , then under the gospell it was not onely made to the spirituall seed ; but it was made in the same manner , and extent , to the gentiles , as it was to the jewes ; therefore under the gospell it was not onely made to the spirituall seed . t. he denyed the minor . c. which was proved by this enthymema : the partition wall is pulled down , and jewe and gentile are all one in christ-jesus ; therefore the covenant is made in the same manner , and extent , to the jew , and gentile . t. he denyed the consequent , that , tho the partition wall was taken down , and both jew and gentile are all one in christ-jesus , seeing the gospell was offered to all nations ; yet under the gospell the covenant was onely with the elect , and believers . c. which was confuted thus ; that which is made with the whole visible church , is not onely made with the elect , and true believers ; but the covenant is made with the whole visible church ; therefore not onely with the elect , and true believers . t. he denyed the major . c. which was proved thus ; that which is made to the kingdom of god upon earth , is not onely made to the elect ; but that which is made to the whole church visible is made to the kingdom of god upon earth ; therefore it was not onely made to the elect. t. he denyed the major , that , that which was made to the kingdom of god upon earth , is not onely made to the elect. c. which was proved thus ; in the kingdom of god , that is in the church militant , there are not onely elect , but reprobates , saints , but hypocrites , for all that are outwardly called , are of the kingdom of god in this sense , and many are called , but few chosen , the kingdom of god is compared to a field , where there are tares , as well as wheat ; a fould ; where there are goats as well as sheep ; to a noble mans house , where there are vessels of dishonour , as well as honour ; and if the church in regard of outward administration of ordinances ( which is the question ) were onely the elect , then it would follow that there were no visible church upon earth , the jewes had no more visible church than the heathens , the distinction of the church visible , and invisible , were frivolous , for no man , nor angell , knows who are elect , nor any but god . to which issue the first branch of the argument being brought , mr. c. referred the judgment of it to the people , and proceeded to the second , that god foretold under the law , that infants should be church-members under the gospell . t. mr. t. perceiving that the people apprehended that he was brought to an apparent absurdity , would have waded into a large discourse to wind himself out . c. but mr. c. told him , that it was his office ( being respondent ) to deny or distinguish , but not authoritatively to determine the question , as if he were the dr. of the chair ; and with much ado ( the anabaptistes crying let him have liberty to speak on ) brought him to dispute again , and to turn to esay . 49.22 . whence he framed this argument . he that foretold that he would lift up his hand to the gentiles , and set up a standard to the people , and that they should bring their sons in their armes , and their daughters shall be carryed upon their shoulders , foretold that infants should be church-members under the gospell ; but thus saith the lord god , behold i will lift up my hand to the gentiles , and set up my standard to the people , and they shall bring thy sons in their arms , and thy daughters shall be carryed upon their shoulders ; therefore god foretold that infants should be church-members under the gospell . t. he denyed the major ; and said the meaning was , that the jewes should bring the gentiles children . c. to which he replyed , god sayes i will lift up my hand to the gentiles , and they , that is the gentiles , shall bring thy sons , and mr. tombs says the jews shall bring thy sons ; then a gentleman read the words , and said it is the gentiles shall bring , &c. t. then mr. t. recollecting himself said , the meaning was , the gentiles should bring the jewes children from captivity ; and that it did not point at the time of the gospell . c. to which was replyed , the contents of the chapter sayes that it points at the time of the gospell ; mr. tombs sayes it points at the time of the jewes captivitie , whether shall we believe ? and repeated the contents : christ being sent to the jewes , complaineth of them to the 5. verse , he is sent to the gentiles to the 13. verse , gods love to his church to the end ; then the people laughed , &c. the pith of which was framed into an argument thus ; that which is the judgment of the church of england ought to be entertained before the groundles assertion of one private man ; but that it points at the time of the gospell is the judgment of the church of england ; therefore it ought to be entertained before the groundles assertion of one private man . t. he denyed that it was the judgment of the church of england . c. which was thus proved , if the church of england causes it to be printed , and commands it to be read before the chapter , then it is the judgment of the church of england ; but the church of england causes it to be printed , and commands it to be read before the chapter ; therefore it is the judgment of the church of england . t. mr. t. said it was not commanded to be printed , and read so before the chapter , for he knew not what kind of bible his was . c. he told him , it was the same with the great church bible , which was not onely authorised with a proclamation , but an act almost fifty years agoe , and will mr. tombs without giving of a reason condemn a whole nation to have slept in such an errour all that while ? then mr. abbets preacher resident there , one who hath been dipped , being in pulpit with mr. tombs , stood up and said , the words were , they shall bring thy sons in their arms ; to which mr. c. replyed , what then ? may they not be gods sons by adoption , and their own by naturall generation ? mr. tombs fell upon expounding the chapter from verse to verse . mr. c. told him , that they came not to hear him expound , but dispute , and repeating the last argument , wished him to answer ; at which abbets stood up again , and said the words of the text were , that they , that is , the gentiles , shall bring thy children , that is the jewes . to which mr. c. replyed , that was an addition to the text , for there is no mention of the jewes ; but grant it were , must it be therefore meant of the captivitie ? the 20. and 21. verses of this chapter confutes it , intimating that the jewes after christs comming shall lose their own naturall , and the gentiles children shall be adopted , and engrafted into their place ; they , that is the gentiles converted , shall bring thy sons , thine by a kind of adoption , and spirituall succession , for the gentiles children were ingrafted into the stock of the jewes children broke off ; and this is so clear from the context ( compared with rom. 11. ) that with reason it could not be denyed ; but he was to speak to mr. tombs who understood the nature of a dispute , and not to him , and if he would take upon him to moderat , it was fit that he should have another . t. mr. tombs asked mr. c. what he understood by standart , what by kings , what by nursing fathers , &c. c. he told him , that it was not his place to dispute socratically by asking of questions , but to answer ad appositum . but to give him satisfaction ( which he needed not ) by standart he understood some visible gospell ordinance , as baptism ; by kings supream magistrats , by nursing fathers , and nursing mothers , patrons , and protectours of the gospell . t. he said that it was a metaphoricall speech , and that nothing could be gathered from it . c. he replyed , that he would grant him that it was more than a metaphoricall speech , ( for a metaphor consisted but in one single trope ) but it was a continuation of severall tropes , and therefore allegoricall ; yet it does not follow , that nothing could be gathered from it , for then nothing could be gathered from any parable in the gospell ; nay nor any part of the new testament ; for there is scarce a sentence without some tropes in it . t. mr. t. said it was fulfilled in hesters time , which was a nursing mother to the jews : c. to which was answered ; hester was a jew , and a friend to the jews , what is this to the gentiles bringing children upon shoulders ? and tho that should be waved , and hester granted to be a nursing mother in the type , yet in the antitype it aymes principally at the times of the gospell , else grosse absurdities would follow ; for what kings , or queens in hesters-time did bow down to the jews with their face towards the earth , and lick up the dust of their feet ? verse 23. iles are summoned in the first verse , which must be meant of the time of the gospell : christ is promised to be given for a light for the gentiles , that he may be their salvation to the end of the earth . 6. kings shall see , and arise , princes also shall worships . 7. and the holy ghost , quotes verbatim , and applyes to the time of the gospell the 8. verse , and that expressely 2. cor. 6.2 . there is an implyed cutting off to the jews , 20. an ingrafting in of the gentiles , the children of the wild olive into the stock of the naturall olive , 21. and a bringing of children to visible ordinances , 22. all which he offered to frame into arguments . t. but mr. t. prevented it , saying , that though it should be understood of the times of the gospell , yet by sons in armes , and daughters upon shoulders , was meant grown men , for any thing he knew , and men women and of a hundred years of age might be carryed upon armes , and upon shoulders . which indeed is the same answer mr. t. gives in his scepticall exercitation ; ( like foxes , and badgers being beat out of one hole , hath another to fly unto : ) where ( as mr. hussey quotes him ) he uses the same words , that mr. abbets , and he found fault with in mr. c. major proposition , for these are his words , it is foretold that gentiles should bring their children in their armes , therefore the prophet foresaw the baptism of infants ; he might have seen the beam in his own eye , turpe est doctori , &c. but to return to mr. t. answer . c. which mr. c. took thus away ; them that they should bring in their bosomes were infants ; but it was foretold that they should bring them in their bosomes ; therefore they were infants . t. he enquired where it did appear that they should bring them in their bosomes . c. out of the text , for the word in the originall ( which is translated armes ) is bosome , and so the septuagints read it {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , intimating that they should bring sucking children hanging upon their breasts . t. then mr. tombs said it was an analogie , and performed when the gentiles perswaded their children to embrace christ . c. well then , it is their children , not thy children , oportet esse memorem ; but not that neither ; for that scripture which in the letter suites with many other scriptures , but in the pretended analogie with no other , can not be the meaning ; but to interpret it literally of bringing children to christ in the bosome , suites with many scriptures , and to perswade them to come to christ , with no scriptures ; therefore it can not be the meaning . t. mr. t. could not name one text of scripture , where to bring in armes , or bosome , was to perswade to come to christ . c. so mr. c. referred the judgment of it to the people , and named another text , es. 65.20 . there shall be no more thence an infant of dayes , &c. but the child shall die an hundred year old . t. mr. tombs bid him read the rest of the words , and the verse following . c. he said he had read as much as he intended to rayse his argument from . t. take notice ( sayes he ) he will not read that which makes against him . c. not so ; for nothing of it makes against me , but that an argument must be terminus simplex , and homogeneal , and that you know well inough , but that in place of solid satisfaction you must say something to deceive the people . the arguments i raise hence are two , the first is this , there shall be no more an infant of dayes , that is , infants shall not be uncapable of the seal , while their age is measured by dayes , as the jews infants that might not be circumcised till a week had passed over them ; therefore infants new born are capable of the seal ; the secund argument is this , the child shall dye an hundred year old , that is , as an hundred year old , or as well a church-member as if he were a hundred year old ; therefore children may be baptized under the gospell : t. mr: t. found fault with that interpretation , shall dye an hundred years old , that is as if an hundred years old . c. he answered , to take it literally would imply a contradiction , for it was impossible to be a child , and a hundred years old , and was better than his , and the anabaptistes exposition of 1 cor. 10.2 . they were baptized under the cloud , that is ( say you ) as if they were baptized under the cloud , when nothing hindred , but they were really baptized under the cloud . and rom. 11.19 . the branches were broken off ▪ that is ( say you ) as if they were broken off , when it was both possible , and apparent , that they were broken off . t. then mr. t. said it was not meant of the times of the gospell . c. to which was replyed ; mr. t. will still be wiser than the church of england ; and read the contents of the chapter ; the calling of the gentiles v. 1. the jews rejected 17. the blessed state of the new jerusalem to the end . t. mr: t. said it was verifyed zacha : 8.4 . thus saith the lord of hosts , there shall yet old men , and old women dwell in the streets of jerusalem , and every man with his staff in his hand for very age , and the streets of the citie shall be full of boyes , and girles playing in the streets thereof . c. to which was replyed ; what is this to an infant of dayes , or a child dying a hundred years old ? when it is apparent both from the contents , & text , that this of zachary is meant of the jews return from captivity , & more apparent that that of es. is meant of the state of christs kingdome under the gospell which i prove thus ; that interpretation that brings with it ▪ absurditie , untruth , blasphemie , is not to be admitted ; but to interpret it of the jews return from captivitie brings with it absurditie , untruth , blasphemie ; therefore it is not to be admitted . t. mr. tombs denyed the minor . c. which was proved in order ; first that it brought with it absurdity , to apply the 25. verse to the return from captivity was absurd , that the wolf and the lamb should feed together , and the lion should eat straw with the bullock , and dust should be the serpents meat ; therefore it brought with it absurdity . secondly that it brought with it untruth ; but to apply the 19. v. to the return from captivity brought with it an untruth , that the voice of weeping should be no more heard in jerusalem ; for it was twice destroyed after , once by antiochus , then by vespatian , and titus ; therefore it brought with it an untruth . thirdly that it brought with it blasphemie ; for to interpret the 17. verse , ( behold i create new heavens , and new earth , and the former shall no more be remembred , and come into mind ) of the second temple , is blasphemous ; therefore it brought with it blasphemie , for it crosseth st. peters interpretation 2. pet. 3.13 . wee according to his promise look for new heavens , and a new earth ; for can any rationall man think , that the new temple built at jerusalem in cyrus his time , was this new heaven , and new earth , that the former should be no more remembred ? when the antient men are said to weep , because the glory of the latter temple was short of the glory of the first , ezra . 3.12 . [ it was inferiour to solomons temple , first in respect of the building , that was lower , and meaner ; secondly , in respect of the vessels , before of gold , now of brasse ; thirdly , of five things that were lost , first the ark of god , secondly , the urim & thummim , thirdty , fire from heaven to consume the sacrifices , fourthly , the glory of god between the cherubims , fiftly , the gift of prophesie , for after the second temple there was no prophet . ] t. mr. t. fell to his wonted course of impertinent exposition , wherein mr. c. told him he violated the rules of dispute , and did lasciviously wanton it out into a wilderness of words , that the truth might be obscured or lost , and like a lapwing carry the hearers far from the matter . then c. p. an apothecary began to interpose , as he had done once before , till a gentleman of authoritie , told him , that it was not fit for a man of his place , and calling , to speak ; yet mr. tombs would not be satisfyed , but went on saying that dr. prideaux in oxford , when a place of scripture was cited , was wont to give a large exposition . c. mr. c. replyed ; that dr. prideaux was doctor of the chair , and judge of the controversie , and might do that which a respondent may not do , whose office is onely to repeat , deny , distinguish , and when a text is quoted , to give a brief exposition , that the opponent may have something to fasten upon ; and what dr. prideaux did , he knew not ; but what dr. collins , and dr. ward did , he could tell him ; but that it was not to the present purpose . and that his judgment in this , was but the same with his own university of oxford , as he knew of late by a sad experiment . t. mr. tombes asked what that was ? c. he told him an explosion , not for disability ( for his dispute was plausible inough ) but that he would neither be satisfied with d. salvage his answer , nor the doctor of the chaires determination ; but fell to repetitions , and extravagances , as now . mr. tombes launched into a tedious discourse to vindicate himself , till he had tyred the auditors , who cryed out this is but to waste time ; and a learned gentleman spake aloud , this is but to spend the time in parling , that he may avoid the gun-shot , for he is affraid the great thunderbolt is behind : and so with much adoe , he was brought to dispute again , where mr. c. falling upon the third branch of his argument , that god did actually receive infants to be church-members under the gospell , began thus . c. those whom christ commanded his disciples to baptize , they may be baptized ; but christ commanded his disciples to baptize infants ; therefore they may be baptized . the minor being denyed , was proved thus ; he that commanded his disciples to baptize all nations , commanded them to baptize infants ; but christ commanded his disciples ; matth. 28.19 . to baptize all nations ; therefore christ commanded them to baptize infants . t. mr. t. denyed the major . c. which was proved by this enthymema ; the whole includes every part ; infants are a part of nations ; therfore he that commanded to baptize all nations , commanded to baptize infants . t. he denyed the consequent , though the whole included every part , and nations were the whole , and infants were a part of nations , yet it did not follow that infants were to be baptized . c. he returned , that , that saying of aquinas ( posito toto generali , pars ejus negari non potest , a generall whole being granted , no part of it can be denyed ) was an axiome both in logick , philosophie , and divinity , as psalm 117.1 . prayse the lord all yee nations , is interpreted by another psalm , old men , and babes , young men , and maidens , prayse yee the lord . t. mr. t. said it was an axiome that the whole includes every part , where there is no exception , but here is an exception . c. he replyed , saint ambrose upon the place sayes there is no exception , qui dixit omnes , nullos exclusit , neque parvulos , &c. he that said baptize all nations , excepted none , no not infants . t. mr. t. pished at it , sleighting ambrose his authority . c. then said mr. c. whether we shall obey ambrose bishop of millain with scripture , or mr. tombes vicar of lemster against scripture , judge you . but that there is no exception thus i prove , if infants be excepted from baptism , it is either because they are not named in the text , or because we find no instance that any were baptized , or because they are not capable ; but for none of these three ; therefore infants are not excepted . t. mr. t. denyed the major , and said that a fourth reason might be given , because they were not disciples , c. he told him that in this answer he shewed himself to be no good logician ; for it is an axiome , that in no division , one member can be affirmed of another , because they are opposite , now to be disciples , and capable of baptism were not opposite but subordinate ; and to be disciples , if it made them not capable , it was no exception at all , if it made them capable , it was the same with the third , to which dilemma when he could receive no answer , he demanded where it was required that those that are to be baptized , must be disciples ? t. he said out of the text , for that which is translated teach all nations , is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} make disciples of all nations . c. he replyed ; at ross you found fault with me for that translation , asking me , was i wiser than the translators ? and now when it seemes to make for you , you urge it . quo teneam vultus mutantem protea nodo ? i confess it is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in the aorist , ye shall make disciples , for it must be interpreted by the future , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , baptizing , or by baptizing in the present tense ; as if discipling were the end , and baptizing the means , and required no qualification before ( as learned men with great probability press ) but i will not insist upon that now , but that which you denyed , i prove , that infants may be disciples , from [ that place rom. 15.10 . compared with the 5. verse , for so mr. c. said , mistaking it for ] acts 15.10 . t. at which mr. tombes insulted , saying he was a good text-man . c. he replyed , he was in hast , and did not think of this before , but that his answer did drive him to it , and he in his elaborate books did oftentimes quote one place for another , then how much more might he , that was extemporall , it had been enough to have said , as our saviour to the tempter , it s written : but to leave these catches , and come to the proof . they upon whom the pharasies would have layd the yoak , were disciples , verse 10. why tempt ye god , to put a yoak upon the neck of the disciples ; but many of them were infants ; therefore infants are disciples . t. he denyed the minor , that many of them were not infants . c. which was proved thus ; the yoak was circumcision verse 5. the pharasies saying , that it was needfull to circumcise them ; but they upon whom the yoak was to be imposed by circumcision , were only infants amongst the jews , and infants together with parents amongst the gentiles ; therefore many of them were infants . t. he denyed the major , and said the yoak was not circumcision . c. he replyed it was apparent , by comparing the 5. and 10. with the foregoing verses . 1. verse certain men came down from judea , and taught the brethren , except ye be circumcised , after the manner of moses , ye cannot be saved ; where observe that circumcision is the subject of the question . in the 2. verse they determined that paul , and barnabas , and certain others of them , should go up to jerusalem unto the apostles , and elders , about this question , to wit circumcision . in the 5. certain of the sect of the pharasies said , that it was needfull to circumcise them . in the 6. the apostles came together to consider of the matter , that is circumcision , and when there had been much disputing , peter rose up in the 7. and determined the question in the tenth verse , why tempt ye god to put a yoak upon the neck of the disciples ? t. mr. t. said , that circumcision could not be the yoak , that neither they nor their fathers could bear . c. he returned , that it was a bloody , and a heavy yoak , therefore the israelites had a dispensation for 40. years in the wilderness ; moses neglected the circumcision of his child probably for this cause ; and his wife ( when the child was circumcised ) called him a bloody husband . the sichemites were slain , as unable to defend themselves , while they were sore of the wound of circumcision . t. mr. t. said , that the doctrine of moses was the yoak of which infants were not capable . c. he replyed ; that circumcision was principally meant , and the doctrine of moses onely as an appendix of it , and children were as capable of the doctrine then , as they were in abraham , and moses his time , when all in the moment of circumcision were tyed to the observation of the doctrine , tho they of ripe years ( to use vossius his distinction ) were taught the doctrine antecedenter , before circumcision , infants of eight days consequenter , after circumcision , when age made them capable ; i know ( sayes god ) abraham will teach his children ; so it is apparent all those upon whom circumcision with the doctrine of moses was to be imposed , were called disciples ; but some of these were infants , for onely infants were circumcised among the jews , and infants with the parents among the gentils ; therefore some infants are disciples . mr. t. without any distinct answer would have broke through the pales to rove abroad again . c. but he pressed him to keep within the lists , urging this argument . they to whom is the promise , they may be baptized , it s the apostles own inference , acts 2.28 . be baptized , for the promise is to you ; but to infants of believing parents is the promise , the promise is to you , and your children ; therefore infants may be baptized . t. he denyed the minor , that to infants of believing parents is the promise . c. he told him , it was the words of the text , the promise is to you , and your children . t. then mr. t. said they were not believers yet . c. mr. c. replyed , they were believers in fieri , tho perhaps not in facto . t. that 's latine ( sayes mr. t. ) what do you understand by it ? c. he said , i mean this , they were believers by outward assent , and disposition , sufficient to make them members visible ; but perhaps not believers by inward assent , and habit , to justify them . for i know you will not say that none are to be baptized but they that have a saving faith , which none but god is able to discern . ministers must act according to rule , which in adultis , is outward profession , or a willingness to receive the ordinance , and that they were thus qualified ( which is sufficient ) it is apparent . t. mr. t. denyed that they were sufficiently qualified . c. which was proved thus ; they whom the apostle commanded to be baptized , were sufficiently qualified ; but the apostle commanded them to be baptized ; therefore they were sufficiently qualified . t. then mr. t. without repeating the syllogism , or applying any distinction , inquired where the apostle commanded them to be baptized . c. he told him verse 38. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , be baptized every one of your . t. yes ( sayes mr. t. ) upon condition of repentance , repent and be baptized . c. that is a condition of your own making , and an adding to the word of god , for where dos the scripture , either expresly , or implyedly say , that repentance is a condition of baptism ? if it be meant of compleat repentance , true it is , it was their duty both to repent , and to be baptized , to repent in relation to crucifying of christ , to be baptized in relation to judaism , which they were to put off , and christianity which they were to put on ; but that they must have compleat repentance before baptism , it is not so much as hinted at . and if you mean incompleat repentance ( which is indeed all that is required ) they had that already , for they were pricked in conscience , saying , men , and brethren what shall we do ? t. mr. t. said that was not all that was required , nor was it a sufficient qualification for baptism . c. against which answer was concluded thus ; that upon which the apostles baptized three thousand the same day , was a sufficient qualification ; but the apostles upon that baptized 3000. the same day ; therefore it was a sufficient qualification . t. he denyed the minor , and gave his reason from the 40. and 41. verses , and with many other words did he testify , and exhort , saying , save your selves from this untoward generation , then they that gladly received the word were baptized , c. it was replyed , that this was but a recapitulation , or reciting of the heads of peters sermon that he preached to them , before they were pricked in conscience , or were exhorted to be baptized , and no new act ; which was a thing usual in scripture , as gen. 1. god having expressed the creation of man , and gods blessing of him , and all creatures to him , by a {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} recites the manner of his creation in the second chapter . but howsoever it made nothing against him , for whether it be taken thetically without any condition , or hypothetically upon condition of repentance , the children were to be baptized together with the parents , the promise is to you and your children , and that was all that he contended for ; from whence ariseth this argument , to whom the promise of grace belongs , to them baptism belongs also ; but the promise of grace belongs to believers and their children ; therefore baptism belongs to both . t. mr. t. said , the promise of grace belonged to believers , and their children , when their children actually believed , and not before . c. he replyed , there were two arguments in the text to overthrow that : the first might be drawn from the indicative predication in the present tense , the promise is to you , and your children , is , for the present , as well to your children , as to you . the second , from the opposition betwixt you and your children , and them that are afar off . they , and their children , which are , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , near ( as the greek scholiast , and the syrian interpreter saies ) are opposed to them that are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , afar off . the jews were near , and in covenant , for to them is the promise in the present tense , but the gentiles were afar off , rom. 2.15 . ye who sometimes were afar off , are made nigh by the blood of christ , therefore it is expressed in the future tense , as many as god shall call ; so that to the jews being called , their children were in covenant with them ; when the gentiles shall be called , their children shall be in covenant with them . t. mr. t. said , he granted that children were in covenant , and might be baptized c. well then observe , good people , the dispute is at an end , he grants that children are in covenant , and may be baptized . t. yes , but by those children are not meant infants , but grown men . c. he replyed , there are many circumstances in the text overthrows that ; first , the word is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which comes from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to bring forth , given sometimes to children in the womb , for the most part to them that are newly born , or young . t. mr. t. said , it was also given to men of ripe age . c. yes sometimes , by a figurative speech , ( as that of julius caesar to brutus in plutarch ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and thou my child . and well might he call him his child , for he had adopted him the night before ; but properly it signifies a young child , and so it ought to be taken here , unless some convincing reason can be given to the contrary , according to that rule , omne analogum per se positum , stat pro famosiore significato . mr. t. gave no answer , but with a jeering eccho repeated the last words , pro famosiore significato . the second circumstance in the text , is the substantive verb {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is , the promise is to you , and your children , not is to you , and shall be to your children ; now what children had they at this present , but young children ? unless mr. t. will imagine that they were all old men and women that were present , and their younger men and women were absent . the third circumstance in the text is the finis cui , the end to whom the promise is , to you , and your children ; the jews children under the law were in covenant with their parents , the charter is confirm'd under the gospel to them and their children . the jews when they crucified christ , called for a curse upon themselves , and upon their children , here the apostle gives them a remedy as large as the disease , the promise ( that is , of freedome from the curse ) is to you and your children . t. mr. t. still kept his conclusion in despight of the premisses , that it was to their children when they actually believed , and not before . c. yes , and before they actually believe , which i prove thus : the blessing is as large as the curse ; but the curse extended even to children , before they could actually believe ( his blood be upon us and upon our children ) therefore the blessing . t. mr. t. answered to the major thus : if by blessing was meant the inward and spiritual part of the covenant , it might be true ; but that was nothing to the present purpose , seeing it was not known to us : but if the outward , and visible part , he denied that infants were capable of the blessing , as well as liable to the curse . c. which distinction was took away thus : they that are holy with a covenant-holiness are capable of the outward and visible part ; but infants of believers are holy with a covenant-holiness ; therefore they are capable of the outward and visible part . t. mr. t. denied the minor , and said that covenant-holiness was gibberidge , which they that spoke did not understand themselves . c. mr. c. replyed , it was the language of learned men of all ages , amongst whom were vossius , bullinger , and hugo grotius ; and that children of believing parents were holy before baptism , and that baptism did not make , but declare them to be christians . then cryed out a cobler , [ i. e. ] ( that hath been dipped ) this is blasphemy . c. well , you discover of what spirit you are , and your ignorance ; are not these the words of the learned assembly of divines in the directory confirmed by ordinance of parliament ? that infants are christians , and federally holy before baptism , and therefore are they baptized [ pag 12. ] and that infants of believing parents are thus holy , with a federall , or covenant-holiness , i thus prove from , 1 cor. 7.14 . els were your children unclean , but now they are holy . t. that sayes mr. t. is meant of matrimoniall holynes , or a lawfull use of the marriage-bed , that they are no bastards . c. that answer i thus infringe . that which in scripture is taken almost six hundred times in a distinct sense , and not so much as once for matrimoniall holiness , cannot be so meant here ; but it is taken in scripture almost six hundred times in a distinct sense , and not once for matrimoniall holyness ; therefore it cannot be so meant here . t. that argument ( sayes mr t. ) i will retort upon you , that which in scripture is taken six hundred times in a distinct sense , and never once for covenant-holiness cannot be meant here ; but it is taken six hundred times in a distinct sense , and never once for covenant holiness ; therfore it cannot be meant here . c. to which was replyed , this is to invert the order of the dispute , you are to answer , and not to oppose . t. i may oppose by retorting of an argument , and i will answer anon . c. well , to satisfie you , i deny your minor , for it s taken oft in scripture for covenant-holiness . t. where ? c. the proof lyes upon you , that it is not , yet i le give give you one instance , or two , rom. 11.16 . if the first fruits be holy , the lump is also holy , and if the root be holy , so are the branches . t. that is not meant of a covenant-holyness . c. yes , it s as cleer as the light , and so you your self interpreted it at ross , as there are hundreds that will witness , which was upon this occasion . i pressed that if the immediat parents were holy , the children were holy with a covenant-holiness ; you denyed the inference , and said the meaning of it was , that abraham the father of the faithfull was the first fruits , and root that was holy , and therefore his posterity was holy , and in covenant [ and in this exposition , as he agreed with truth , so with beza , who sayes that children are holy , that is comprehended in covenant from the wombe , and with bowles who saith , that they are holy with outward holiness , by which they are judged to be in covenant ] but to return from whence , by your retortion , we have digressed . i am to prove that holyness is never taken in scripture for matrimoniall cleanness in opposition to illegitimation . not in that place ezra 9.2 . the holy seed have mingled themselves with the seed of those lands ; which is either your only , or principall hold , ( as far as i can gather out of your books ) therefore in no place . t. he denyed the antecedent . c. which was proved thus . if it be meant of matrimoniall cleanness , then this must be the meaning of the words ; the holy seed , that is the lawfully begotten jews , have mingled themselves with the seed of those lands , that is the bastards of those lands ; but that cannot be the meaning , for happily there were some bastards among the jewes , and in that sense not holy , and no bastards among the nations , but all , or the most legitimate , and therefore in that sense not unholy ; therefore it is not meant of matrimoniall holiness . t. he denyed the major , affirming that both jews , and nations , were holy before their mixture , but then , both they , and their children became unclean , because god had forbidden them to marry with the nations . c. to which was answered , they that are saints are not unholy ; but some saints have been begot by this mixture , or unlawfull bed , as jepthah , who hebr. 11. is said to be justified by faith ; therefore they are not unholy . t. he denyed the major , saying , they may be unholy by their naturall generation , and first birth , and yet holy by regeneration , and new birth . c. this strikes not home ; moses had children by his ethiopian woman , but they were not illegitimate ; therefore those that were begot by mixture with the nations were not illegitimate . t. mr. t. said , that was before the law was given . c. well , that answer will do you little service ; after the law was given , salomon had children by rahab , who was a cananitish , and boaz by ruth , who was a moabitish woman ; and yet they were not illegitimate , or unholy , as you would have it . t. they became proselites , and received the religion of the jews . c. well then , while they were not of the jews religion , tho no bastards , they were unholy , when they embraced the jews religion , ( by your own confession ) they became holy ; what is this but a covenant-holyness which you have opposed all this while , and now grant it ? t. mr. t. used many words to clear himself , but with little satisfaction to the greatest part of the hearers , and still denied that children were holy , and in covenant . c. which was further proved thus , they that christ took up in his arms , blessed , said , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive , are holy with a covenant-holyness ; but christ took up little children into his arms , blessed them , sayd , the kingdom of god belonged unto them , pronounced a curse upon those that despised , and would not receive them ; therefore little children are holy with a covenant-holiness . t. mr. tombes began to be netled , as if something in this argument galled him , saying it was a fallacie , and that he went about to entrap him by sophistrie . c. what fallacie ? t. a heaping of many things together that belong to severall matters . c. i confess they were spoken upon severall occasions , but they all concenter in my conclusion , that children are holy , and in covenant ; i am in hast , and named them all together , but if you will have patience , i le prosecute them severally . t. i am willing to continue till midnight , but i like not this kind of arguing . c. you like it not , because it does jugulum petere , cut the throat of your tenet . t. no not so much as touch the skin of it , sayes he . c. well i beseech you in the spirit of meekness to answer . t. it is a fallacie of heaping many particulars together . c. i confess there is a fallacie they call {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . t. take notice , he confesses it is a fallacie . c. no such thing , for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is an asking of many questions , which is your usuall fallacie , socratically to ask , when you should solidly answer , but in my syllogism there is not so much as one question . t. it is a copulative proposition sayes mr. tombes , and if one member of it be false , the whole is false . c. it is not an explicit copulative proposition ( sayes mr. c. ) neither is any member of it false , ( for every branch of it is scripture , ) instance in any of the particulars that you think m●kes the least for me , and i le begin with that ; then he mentioned matth. 18.2 . which words being read , from thence he raysed this argument . they to whom belongs the kingdom of heaven , are holy , and in covenant ; but to little children belongs the kingdom of heaven ; therefore little children are holy , and in covenant . t. those little children were not infants . c. they are called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , because they could scarce speak . t. what are these called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ? c. if not here , elsewhere , and of other evangelists , and here they are called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , by the diminutive , which the great master of the greek hippocrates interprets , to signifie a child under seven years of age , and therefore not capable of actuall faith , when the apostles themselves were yet ignorant about fundamentalls . t. they were converted verse 3. except ye be converted , and become as little children , &c. c. the meaning is not that the little children are converted , but it hath relation to the disciples in the first verse , who must be converted from their actuall sins , and become as little children which have no actuall sin . t. o how unhappy are the people that are seduced with these toyes , are you not ashamed ? c. i see you have learned of that man in lucian to cry out {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and to vilifie that argument you cannot answer , and besides that , i see nothing that is shame-worthy . he hath answered nothing at all ( sayes one under the pulpit ) but shifts and denyes all . t. thou art an impudent , brazen-faced fellow , whosoever thou art , i have answered all , confuted all my adversaries books , and amongst them one of my greatest antagonists , i have turned mr. richard baxter the most of his arguments against himself . c. sir , let that worthy man alone who is absent , you are now to answer me . t. here is nothing to answer , is it not in the sixt verse , who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me ? were they not believers ? c. yes , the disciples were believers , which are here meant , and not the children ; which the grammaticall construction will tell you , for it is in the masculin gender , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , one of these little ones , meaning {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} disciple , not in the neuter gender to answer to {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , little child ; so that my argument remains unanswered . t. i am weary of this pedantrie , and looking upon his watch , said , i promised but one houre , and it s above foure houres ; with that he clapped his book together . [ t. j. ] good mr. tombes ( says an anabaptist ) continue a little longer for satisfaction of the people ; he gave no answer , but put on his hat . c. well , sir , i will not press you any further now , i should have urged john 3.5 . rom. 11. and other places , to prove infants church-membership , and have come to the second and third branches of mine argument , that christ merited it for them , and infants stand in need of baptism ; but those i must leave to another opportunitie ; therefore i desire that we may have a set day about a month hence , seeing i was hurryed to this extemporall discourse through importunitie . t. no , i will have no more dealing with you , unless it be by writing , that what both of us shall set down , may be read in the publick congregation . mark . 16.15 , 16. 15. and he said unto them , go ye into all the world , & preach the gospel to every creature . 16. he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved , but he that beleeveth not , shall be damned . these two verses hold out the rich charter of the gospel , which our saviour delivered to the apostles after his resurrection ; the parts are two , first a precept , in the former verse , go ye into all the world , and preach the gospel to every creature ; secondly a promise , with a commination in the latter , he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; but he that beleeveth not , shall be damned . in the precept , we have two particulars , first a mission , he sends them , go ye into all the world ; secondly a commission , he authorizes them , and preach the gospel to every creature . in the latter verse , or promise , we have first the thing promised , layd down affirmatively , shall be saved ; secondly the qualification , and that either absolute , he that beleveth , or conditional , and is baptized ; he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; or a commination shall be damned , with a qualification negative , and absolutely without any limitation , he that beleeveth not , he that beleeveth not shall be damned . wee l only hint at the former verse for introduction to the latter . and he said , ( that is christ , ) observe , that it is only god , christ god and man , that can give mission , or commission to preach , and ordain sacraments . math. 28.18 . all power is given me in heaven and earth , go ye therefore , and teach all nations . go ye into all the world , there is the largeness of their commission , to all the world , as he , to all nations as matthew . hence observe , the apostles , and by them the evangelists , had an extraordinary commission which extended through the world , but our commission ordinarily is limited to certain places ; true it is , there may be itinerants upon special occasions , ( and they also confined within their verges , ) but as doctor buckeridge observes well when christ speaks to apostles , he says , go ye into all the world , but when to ordinary pastors , and teachers {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} he fixed some to be pastors , and some teachers . and preach the gospel to every creature , there is the commission , wherein we have first the act preach , that is proclame , secondly the object of the gospel , which in the original , and other languages signifies good news , or a good speech ; from the connexion between the mission and commission comming from the same authour christ , and extended to the same persons , the apostles , and their successours , observe , that none may preach as church officers , but they that are sent in a gospel way ; our adversary in the common cause spoke so home to this , that we need not press it further . the last thing is the extent of the commission , and that a very large one , unto every creature , as here , to all nations , as matthew . now the quaere will be , what is meant by every creature ? some limit it to every rational creature , angels , men , devils , as origen , & his misericordes doctores who held the devils and reprobates should be saved ; but that cannot be ; for 2. pet. 2.4 . they are cast down to hell , and reserved to judgement . some more strictly restrain it only to man , and that when he is come to age , and understanding , excluding children ; this is too strict , true it is , infants are not capable to be taught of men , but they may be taught of god ; they cannot actually understand the gospel , but they may actually receive the benefit of the gospel ; a noble mans child hath interest in his fathers patent , and pardon ; a sucking infant ( though he knows it not ) may be joined in a lease with the parents . some extend it , and it is conceived more fitly according to the letter , without any synecdoche , or figure , to every creature , as if he should say , go and proclame the benefit that comes by christ to every creature ; for as by the first adam all creatures were accursed , so by christ the second adam , all creatures shall be blessed , rom. 8.22 . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} every creature groans , desiring to be delivered into the glorious liberty of the sons of god , answerable to this , preach the gospel {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to every creature , telling them , that they are now by christ to be delivered into the glorious liberty of the sons of god . object . but the creature cannot hear , nor understand . answ. it s true not properly , no more could john baptist in his mothers womb , and yet {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the babe sprang for joy ; nay the holy ghost ascribes a hearing to the creature , hosea 2.21 . and it shall come to pass in that day saith the lord , i will hear the heavens , and they shall hear the earth , and the earth shall hear the corn , and the wine , and the oyl , and they shall hear jezreel . hence observe , that every creature in a sense is sensible of the benefit they have by christ ; but every one in their kind , men come to years , and discretion , are capable of actual understanding , actual profession , actual faith ; infants only in actu primo , are capable of the first seeds of understanding , of profession of faith , which will shew it self in the fruits when they come to years ; the rest of our fellow creatures as by a natural instinct they groan for the curse , so by an other instinct , they lift up their heads in expectation of the blessing , and that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , with an earnest expectation , or a stretched out neck as the word in the original signifies , rom. 819. thus we have paraphrased upon the first verse for introduction to the second , wherein is first , a consolatory promise , he that beleeveth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; secondly a comminatorie curse , he that beleeveth not , shall be damned . in the former , we have first the qualification , and that either absolute , he that beleeveth , or conditional , and is baptized . q. now the quaere will be , what belief is here meant ? sol. first the event tells us , that belief that saves us , he that believes shall be saved . secondly the opposition , its contrary to that unbelief that damns ; observe that a saving faith is necessary to salvation , without faith it is impossible to please god , all they , and only they that have a saving faith shall be saved ; so that you see that faith is a necessary , and absolute condition . and is baptized , that is upon supposition , if baptism conveniently may be had ; hence observe , that baptism is not absolutely necessary by necessity of means ( as they call it ) as if none could be saved without it , but by necessity of precept , if conveniently it may be had . the israelites for forty years in the wilderness were not circumcised . bernard , that saw not all things could see this , that , non absentia sed contemplus sacramenti damnat , not the want , but the contempt of the sacrament damns : valentinian the emperour dyed , as he was going to be baptized in jordan , and ambrose being asked what he thought of him , answered , that he was baptizatus volo , & voluntate , etiamsi non reverà aquae lavacro , baptized inwardly with wish , and will , though not outwardly with the laver of water , austin is conceived here to be mistaken , who denyed salvation to infants un-baptized , hence he is called durus pater infantum , a hard father of infants ; and many of the doctors of the church of rome , who hold that infants that dye un-baptized , are kept in limbo infantum in a purgatory of infants , where they shall never behold the beatifical vision . object . but here is first placed beleeving , and then baptized , so that from the order of placing the words , some would gather that we are first to beleeve before we be baptized . answ. that will not follow ; for mark 1.4 . there is placed first baptizing , and then preaching , and repentance after , whence they might as well gather that we must be baptized , before we can hear the word preached , or repent ; repentance in scripture is oft placed before faith , and yet is a fruit , and effect of faith ; some of the evangelists place judas his receiving of the sop before the sacrament , some after it ; it is a rule in interpreting of holy writ , that scriptura nescit prius , & posterius , the scripture does not alwaies observe the precise order in which things were done . q. but i beseech you consider what faith it is that is here meant ? sol. a saving faith ; must then a saving faith be the rule of our baptism ? and must we baptize none , but of those we know have a saving faith ; then we must baptize none at all ; never any minister upon that ground had ever commission to baptize any , no not the apostles , for they did not infallibly know that those they baptized had a saving faith ; nay they actually baptized many that were hypocrites , as simon magus , alexander , hymeneus , philetus , and others ; hence observe , that no rule for baptizing in general can be gathered out of this text , and to say that none are to be baptized , but they that have a saving faith , which is the faith that is only here meant , or none but they which make an outward profession of faith ( which is not here meant ) is an untruth not gatherable from this scripture , and an adding to the word of god , against which he hath proclamed a solemn curse . the commination , or curse follows in the last words , he that beleeveth not , shall be damned ; he does not say , he that is not baptized shall be damned . for though the contempt of it is dangerous , yet a man may be saved without baptism ; he does not say that he that is not dipped over head is damned , that is a thing indifferent , any washing in the name of the father , son , and holy ghost , is baptism ; he does not say , that he that is not re-baptized , or baptized again , is damned , for that is the invention of man , never heard of ( in that sense ) before john of leydens time , who confessed at his execution , that he had that , and the rest of his poysoned doctrine from satan . hence observe , that all unbelievers , though baptised , shall be damned ; men beleeving though ( through invincible necessity ) un-baptized , shall be saved ; thus we have given you the lively meaning of the holy ghost in the text . having layd this foundation , wee 'l make further inquirie into two things which are in controversie , first what is meant by baptism , or baptizing , secondly whether infants ought to be baptized , or no . first , baptism in the original , signifies nothing but a washing , as pareus upon the hebrews says , baptismus graecis est quaevis ablutio , baptism is in greek any washing , whether by dipping , or sprinkling , to baptize is to dip , or sprinkle says , ravenel ; so says the churches old catechism dipped , or sprinkled in the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ; so the directory , baptize the child , by powring , or sprinkling of the water on the face of the child , without adding any further ceremony . and as many kinds there are of washing , so many there are of baptizing , whereof the pillars of the greek tongue , hesichius , budeus , stephanus , scapula , arius montanus , pasor , mention four ; first tingere , to die , or tincture , secondly mergere , to drown , or plunge , thirdly madefacere , to wet , or moysten , and lastly abluere , to wash , or clense . i confess there are some that distinguish betwixt {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to rantise ( as they call it ) or sprinkle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is to plunge to the bottom , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which is to swim upon the top , and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which is , as they criticise upon it , to swim betwixt the top , and bottom ; these three last are mentioned by casaubon in his notes upon the third chapter of st. mathew , as was quoted by our adversary , but with what fidelitie , or advantage to his cause , i leave it to the godly , and learned to judge , for he left out the last words , wherein the whole state of the question is determined by casaubon against him , for thus he concludes , horum sententia jampridem meritò est explosa , &c. the judgement of those men is deservedly long since exploded , and trampled down , that would have baptizing to be by dipping , and he gives a reason , quum non in eo posita sit mysterii hujus vis , & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , seeing the force , and efficacy of baptism , this mysterie , consists not in that , that is the manner of washing . which is confirmed by aquinas , immersio non est de necessitate baptismi , dipping is not of the necessity of baptism , and dominico sotus , ablutio est de essentiâ baptismi , washing is of the essence of baptism , but the manner of washing , whether by dipping , powring , or sprinkling , is accidental . many places of scripture confirm this , 1 cor. 10.2 . there the israelites were baptized in the red sea , when their feet did but touch the water , not as if they were baptized , when they were not ( as the ana baptists gloss upon this place ) and that the egyptians were really baptized , for the egyptians were not baptized in their sense , but sunk to the bottom like stones . exod. 15.5 . baptized under the cloud , not that the egyptians were baptized , and the israelites as if they were ( as they descant ) under the cloud , for the egyptians were never under the cloud , for the israetites went before the egyptians , and the cloud , part of it was over the israelites , part of it went before them . there is mention made in the gospel of baptizing , or washing of themselves when they came from market , of cups , of vessels , of tables , which cannot be meant of plunging , in water , so often , where that element was so scarce , but rincing . johns baptizing in jordan , philips going down to the river with the eunuch proves nothing at all ; for what strange consequence would this be , especially from the anabaptists ( that must have express scripture for all things ) john baptized in jordan , philip went down into the water with the eunuch , therefore , they were dipped , seeing it might as well be by powring , or sprinkling of water upon them , for any thing that appears out of the text . object . john baptized in enon , because there was much water . answ. this will seem to be no wonder in those hot countries , where there are many miles without a spring of water , especially seeing geographers , and travellers tells us , that enon is a little brook that one may stride over , scarce knee deep , and therefore not capable of dipping . object . but baptism , say they , must resemble the death of christ , rom. 6.4 . we are buryed with him by baptism , which is not by sprinkling , but dipping . answ. i answer , the scope of the place is to shew , that one end of our baptism is to seal our communion with christ in his death , but to press a necessity of resemblance by descending into the water , and comming out again , we see no ground in text , and if our abiding under the water must answer christs burial in exact representation , then as christ lay three days , and three nights in the grave , so they must lye three days , and three nights under the water , which if it were put in execution , the dispute would quickly be at an end . but should we grant this resemblance , i appeal to any man , whether our powring on of water in baptism , does not more resemble our christian burial , which is by powring on of earth , or dust , than by plunging over head . thus you see it proved , that baptizing is any kind of washing , in the name of the father , son , and holy ghost ; we do not deny with master perkins , that if we were to baptize converted turks , or pagans of ripe age , in hot countries , we might baptize them by dipping , provided that their garments were not first baptized , or washed , for that is conceived to be no less superstition , than baptizing of bells ; baptism ( says vossius ) non est immersio vestium , sed humani corporis , is not a washing of the garments , but of the body ; we account the church of rome idolaters , for presenting that worship , first to the image , which is terminated in christ ; the garments are first washed , or dipped , and the body but at the most wet , or moystned through them . but to affirm that no baptism but that which is by dipping is lawful , is a will-worship , much more , that baptism otherwise is a nullitie , and those that are baptized so , ought to be baptized again , or re-baptized , which the senate of syrick understood well , when they made an act , that all that did presume to re-baptize such as were baptized before , should be drowned . so we have resolved the former doubt , that baptizing is not dipping , and come to the latter , that infants may , nay ought to be baptized . and ( brethren ) i beseech you to give me leave a little to speak for infants , those poor souls , that cannot speak for themselves . and before we come to the question , take with you these two considerations ; first , that those truths that were not in controversie in the primitive times , the apostles were not so punctual in pressing of them , seeing there was no need ; solon being asked why he made no law against murtherers of parents , answer'd , because he conceiv'd none would commit that unnatural act ; if the apostles had been asked , why they did not put down infant-baptism in plainer terms , i suppose they would have answered , that they thought none would have denyed it . secondly observe , that those things that are pressed often in the old testament , are mentioned more sparingly in the new , as the sabbath , and magistracy in the old testament , line upon line , and precept upon precept , but scarce a syllable for a christian sabbath , or a christian magistracie in the new . nothing is more clear then infants church-membership in the old testament , therefore not so clear in the new , and yet clear enough to those that have eyes to see it , as will appear by these reasons following . 1. arg. first , those that are in covenant with god , ought to have the seal of the covenant , which is baptism . but infants of beleeving parents are in covenant with god . therefore infants ought to have the seal of the covenant , which is baptism . the former proposition is firm by confession of all divines , even our adversaries , haec est fundamentalis ratio paedobaptismi ( sayes daneus ) this is the fundamentall reason of baptizing of infants , that they are in covenant , esse foederatum sufficit ad accipiendum signum foederis , sayes davenant , to be in covenant is sufficient to receive the signe , and seal of the covenant , omnes foederati sunt baptizandi , sayes wendel , all that are in covenant are to be baptized , si in foedere sunt , impiè agunt , qui eis signum foederis negant , saith ferus , if they be in covenant , they do wickedly that deny them the signe of the covenant ; in a civill contract ( sayes mr perkins ) the father , and the heir make but one person , and the covenant 's for himself and his posterity . the minor proposition that infants of believing parents are in covenant , is grounded on many scriptures , genes . 17.7 . where god establishes a covenant , not only with abraham , but with his seed after him in their generations , for an everlating covenant , everlasting , and therefore to last to the end of the world ; as cornelius à lapide sayes , absolutè aeternum est in semine spirituali fidelibus , it is absolutely everlasting in the spirituall seed to the faithfull . galat. 3.8 the scripture foreseeing that god would justifie the heathen through faith , preached before the gospel to abraham ; therefore if isaac was in covenant with his father when he was but eight dayes old , and had the seal by vertue of the lamb to be slain , much more the children of believing parents , by vertue of the lamb that is already slain . deutero . 29.11 . when all the people stood in covenant before the lord , their little ones are mentioned amongst the rest , which is further confirmed , acts 2.38 , 39. be baptized every one of you , for the promise is to you , and your children ; to say that they were not yet believers , is but a shift , the text makes it cleer , as soon as they were believers , their children were in covenant with them , and to be baptized . arg. 2. such as were circumcised under the law , may be baptized under the gospell . but infants of believers were circumcised under the law . therfore they may baptized under the gospel . huic argumento non omnes anabaptistae resistent ( sayes learned whitaker ) all the anabaptists shall not be able to resist this argument ; the minor , that infants under the law were circumcised , is confessed . the former proposition is onely questioned , that baptism under the gospel to infants , does not necessarily follow from circumcision under the law ; augustin is cleer for it , saying , mutatis signis manet eadem gratia sine aetatis discrimine , the outward visible signes being changed , the same grace remaines without any difference of age , and he gives a reason , because the grace of god is not straiter in the new testament than in the old ; therefore christ , hebr. 8.6 . is said to be mediator of a better covenant , but how were it a better covenant , if all poor infants that were in covenant under the law , were out of covenant under the gospel ? titus . 2 12. the grace of god hath appeared unto all , and therefore surely to infants ; as ireneus sayes , christus pro parvulis parvulus factus est , christ becam a little one , for little ones sake , that he might redeem the little ones . little ones were the first martyrs that suffered for christ , in rama , was a voice heard ; and that baptism came in place of circumcision , the apostle cleares it , coloss. 2.11 , 12. ye are circumcised with circumcision made without hands ; how is that ? buryed with him in baptism . hence arises another argument . arg. 3. those that were once in covenant , had the seal of the covenant , and were never disfranchized , and put out of covenant , have title to the covenant , and seal of it still . but infants were once in covenant , had the seal of the covenant , and were never disfranchized , and put out of covenant , therefore infants have title to the covenant , and seal of it still . let any man shew one syllable , one tittle in scripture , that ever infants were put out , and wee l yield the gantlet ; nay , the gospell is so far from expressing of them that they are put out , that it gives them large commendations beyond them of riper years , making them the rule of our perfection , as new born babes , receive the sincere milk of the word . unless you be as little children , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of god ; which is a case so cleer , that even bellarmine him self encludes , nullum est impedimentum , &c. there is nothing that hinders , but that infants may as well be baptized under the gospell , as they were circumcised under the law ; for neither hath god forbidden ministers to give them this sacrament , neither are they uncapable to receive it . arg. 4. that which god hath commanded may lafully be practised by the ministers of jesus christ . but god hath , commanded infant-baptism . therefore it may lawfully be practised by the ministers of jesus christ . that god hath ommanded it , appears , matth. 28.19 . go baptize all nations ; it s a generall command , and ( as aquinas sayes ) posito generali mandato pars ejus negari non potest , a generall command being given , no part of it can be denyed ; infants are a part of nations , and included in them . object . but here is no mention made of infants . answ. no , nor of them of age ; we might retort it upon our adversaries , there is no mention made of dippers , no , nor of them that are to be dipped , therefore they ought not to dip , nor be dipped . generals include particulars in all lawes ; psalm . 117. praise the lord all ye nations , nations includes old men , and babes , young men , and maids , all without exception , as another psalm interprets it . now if infants be excepted , contrary to that saying of saint ambrose , qui dixit omnes , nullum excepit , neque parvulos , &c. he that commanded all to be baptized , excepnone , no , not little ones . if ( i say ) they be excepted , it s either because they are not named , or because we never read in scripture that any infants were baptized , or , because they are not capable ; ( that fourth cavill , being the same with the third , i le take away anon ) but for none of these three ; therefore infants are not excepted from baptism . not for the first , because they are not named , for so neither old men , nor nobles , nor ministers are named . not because we read not of their baptism , so we neither read of the baptism of the apostles , nor of the virgin mary , yet we piously believe that they were baptized ; de negatione facti ad jus non valet consequentia , such a thing is not mentioned , that it was done ; therfore it was not done , or was not done , therefore it ought not to have been done , is no consequence ; christ did , and said many things that are not written ; so did his apostles . not for the third , because they are uncapable , which is denyed ; for if infants be uncapable , it is either because they have not repentance , and faith in act , which cannot hinder them ; christ was baptized , had not repentance , for he had no sin to repent of , had not faith , for faith presupposeth one lost in himself , that depends upon another for salvation , christ is that rock of salvation , upon whom all mankind being lost depends ; neither because they cannot hear the word preached ; then they that are born deaf should be excluded from baptism ; or because they are not otherwise qualified ; but that cannot hinder them , for god requires no more of them that are in covenant , and born of believing parents , but a pure capacity , and receptability , which divines call potentiam objectivam ; as god in the beginning created the world of nothing , so in the beginning of the new creature he does regenerat , and recreate us of nothing ; upon this account it is , that we read of many whole families baptized , not excluding , but rather including infants , cornelius was baptized with his houshold , acts 10.47 , 48. lydea , and her houshold , acts 16.15 . crispus , and all his house , acts 18.8 . and the houshold of stephanus , 1 corinth . 1.16 . the jayler {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , all that were his , acts 16.31 , 32. his servants , his children ; for can we imagine so many families without a child ? arg. 5. they that are capable of the kingdom , and the blessing , which is the greater , are capable of baptism , which is the lesser . but infants are capable of the kingdom , and the blessing , which is the greater . therefore they are capable of baptism which is the lesser ; forbid not ( sayes our saviour ) little children to come unto me , for unto such belongs the kingdom of god ; for surely , if the kingdom of heaven receive them , the church may not exclude them ; for the church must receive such as glory receives , acts 2.47 . there were daily added to the church such as should be saved . now for proof of this argument , take these places , mark . 10.13 . to 17. mark . 9.14.36 , 37. matth. 18.2 , 3 , 4. matth. 19.13 , 14 , 15. luke 9.14 , 15. luke 18.15 , 16. which tho they be spoken upon severall occasions , all prove infants to be church-members , and capable both of grace , and glory ; wee l instance in two , jesus called a little child unto him , the word is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which ( as hippocrates in his distinction of ages sayes , and beza seconds him , ) signifies a child under seven years , and set him in the middest of them , and said , verily i say unto you , except ye be converted , and become as little children , that is , endevour to be free from actuall sin , as they are , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven . the other is that of s. luke 18.15 . wherein observe , first a precept , suffer little children to come unto me . secondly , we have a prohibition , and forbid them not . thirdly , his displeasure against his disciples , for hindring them from coming to him , he looked on this act with indignation , and was much displeased at it . fourthly , he adds a reason why little ones should be brought to him , because to such belongs the kingdom of god , that is , the kingdom of grace here , and glory hereafter ; they are visible members of his church , and kingdom , and therefore none may hinder their access to him . fiftly , he confirmes this reason , à majori , from the greater to the less , gods kingdom doth not onely belong to them , but i tell you more , whosoever will come into this kingdom , must resemble infants in innocency , humility , simplicity . sixtly , he adds his benediction of them , he took them up in his arms , put his hands upon them , and blessed them ; and tells us that their angels alwayes see the face of his father , which is in heaven ; and the danger of them that offend one of these little ones ; and all this recorded by three evangelists , matthew , mark , luke , as if it were of purpose to check the sacrilegious insolencie of these latter times that denyes them the seal . christ is not more punctuall by his spirit , in declaring his own birth , passion , resurrection , than he is in this precious truth so much trampled under foot . and if any object , these were not young children , the text easily confutes them , they were {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . children under seven yeares of age , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , children that could scarce speak , they did not lead them , but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , they carried them unto him ; christ is said twice in s. mark , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to take them up in his armes , and embrace them ; christ was already instructing the people that were able to understand , the apostles were offended for bringing of children which could not understand . well then , doth christ take children in his armes , and would he have them all put out of his visible church ? would he have us receive them in his name , and yet not to receive them into his visible church , nor as his disciples ? how can infants be received in christs name , if they belong not visibly to him , and his church ? nay , doth christ account it a receiving of himself , and shall we then refuse to receive them , or acknowledge them the subjects of his visible kingdom ? will it not follow then that whosoever refuseth them , refuseth christ , and him that sent him ? for my part ( to use the words of a godly , and learned divine ) seeing the will of christ is that i must walk by , and his word that i must be judged by , and he hath given me so full a discovery of his will in this point , i will boldly adventure to follow his rule , and had rather answer him upon his own incouragement for admitting an hundred infants into his church , than answer for keeping out of one . argument 6. all disciples may be baptized . but infants of believing parents are disciples . therefore some infants may be baptized . the major , or former proposition , is granted by our adversaries , who translate that place , matth. 28.19 . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , go make disciples of all nations , which is in our last translation , go teach all nations , confessing , as soon as they are disciples they may be baptized . now for the minor , that infants are disciples , is evident from acts 15.10 . why , tempt yee god , and put a yoak upon the neck of the disciples ? this yoak was circumcision , and the attendants of it , as will appear by comparing it with the fift verse , and the context from the beginning of the chapter . now among the jews , children were only to be circumcised , and amongst the gentiles , children together with parents when they were converted , and became proselites . to say that not only circumcision , but the doctrine , and observation of the whole law , by the yoak is meant , is but a shift ; circumcision was the seal , or ordinance by which the jews were bound to observe the doctrine , and the law , and all those upon whom the yoak was layd by circumcision , are called disciples ; whereof infants were a great part . and if it be objected , that children are not capable of instruction , as it is nothing to the purpose , so it contradicts scripture , esay 54.13 . and all thy children shall be taught of the lord , and great shall be the peace of thy children . and if any one carnally interpret this of the jews return from captivity , as they do other places of esa. our saviour checks them , john 6.45 . and it is written in the prophets , and they shall all be taught of god . arg. 7. all that have faith may be baptized . but some infants have faith . therefore some infants may be baptized . the proposition none will deny , the minor may be proved by severall reasons . first , christ expresly calls them believers , matth. 18. he attributes humility to them , and faith ; and commands elders to imitate them ; and that you may see they were infants , mark 9.36 . tells us they were such as christ took up in his armes . secondly , they are said to receive the kingdom of god , mark 10. that is , the grace of god , remission of sins , and life eternall ; now the kingdom is not received , but by faith in christ . thirdly , they please god , therfore christ blesseth them ; but without faith it is impossible to please god . fourthly , either faith must be allowed them , or salvation denyed them ; but the latter is cruell , and impious ; therefore the former must be godly , and pious ; faith only purifies the heart , but no unclean thing shall enter into heaven . fiftly , tho infants cannot make actuall profession of faith , yet they may have inward roots of sanctification , and faith . john baptist and jeremie were sanctified in their mothers wombs ; let carnalists say what they will , that is the principal meaning of that place , esay 65.20 . there shall be no more an infant of days ; the jews thought they were not sanctified , unless a sabbath went over them ; the child shall dy an hundred year old , that is , as well in covenant with god , or a visible church-member , as if he were a hundred years old . therefore pareus sayes , infantes ecclesiae etiam ante baptismum censentur sideles ; infants of the church , even before baptism , are judged faithfull . hommius sayes , infants have faith , in semine , in the seed , tho not in messe , in the harvest ; beza sayes , they have faith {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in power , tho not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in operation . faith ( says treleatius ) is twofold ; 1. active which the elder have by hearing the word . 2. passive , and by imputation , which infants have by vertue of the covenant , and divine promise . pelagius asks austin where he places infants baptized ? he answers , in numero credentium , in the number of believers , and addes , nec judicare ullo modo aliter audebis , si non vis esse apertè haereticus , neither may thou presume to judge otherwise , if thou wilt not be a plain heretick . wee l conclude this with that of vossius , as in naturals , so in supernaturals we must distinguish these three things , power , habit , and act ; there is the power of reasoning in infants , the habit in men sleeping , but the act , and exercise , in them that are waking ; the power answers the seed , the habit the tree , the act , and exercise , the fruit ; the seed of faith may be in infants , the habit in men of age , but the act , and exercise , in them that work according to the habit . 8. arg. those that are holy , with a covenant-holiness , may be baptized . but infants of beleeving parents are holy with a covenant-holiness . therefore infants of beleeving parents may be baptized . for the former proposition , foederatis competit signum foederis , ( says vossius ) the sign of the covenant belongs to them that are in covenant ; holiness is twofold ( says bullinger ) either of faith , or of the covenant . ezra . 9.2 . ye have mingled the holy seed , that is them in covenant , with the nations , that is them that are out of covenant . thus you see , that covenant-holiness is no gibberidge , but grounded upon scripture , and avouched by learned men : as shall more fully appear . the minor , that children of beleeving parents are holy with a covenant-holiness , is clear from 1 cor. 7.14 . else your children were unclean , that is , not in covenant , but now they are holy , that is , in covenant , thus ( besides the ancients ) sharpius , and peter martyr interpret it , and hugo grotius himself , non loquitur apostolus de sanctitate naturali , &c. the apostle ( says he ) speaks not of natural holiness , and inhering to the nature of children , but of an holiness adhering to them , that is , the holiness of the covenant , for the children of beleevers are comprehended in the covenant of grace , and therefore accounted holy of god . to interpret it ( as the gross anabaptists do ) that they are holy , that is , no bastards , is a new holiness not heard of in scripture , and as ( doctor featly says ) a bastard exposition ; and pareus gives the reason , if the children of beleevers be therefore holy , because they are no bastards , the children of pagans are as well holy , for they are also no bastards . if the first-fruits be holy , the lump is holy , and if the root be holy , so are also the branches . rom. 11.16 . the first fruits and the root , that is the parents ; the lump , the branches , that is the children , and posterity . and , rom. 11.17 . if the jews were broken off , and the gentiles graffed into their place , it will follow , that if the jews were broken off , parents with children , then the gentiles shall be graffed in , parent with children . but the jews were broken off parents with children . therefore the gentiles shall be graffed in , parents with children . 9. arg. if infants should be out of covenant under the gospel , many dangerous absurdities would follow . first , infants would be losers by the comming of christ , and be put in a worse condition than the jewish infants were ; they with the parents were admitted to the seal of the covenant , which was circumcision , and not children with parents to baptism . secondly , if infants should be in covenant then , and not now , grace would be larger under the law , than under the gospel . thirdly , there would be no difference betwixt the child of a christian , and of a pagan , but all the infants of christians would be as vile as the children of turks , tartars , or cannibals . fourthly , they would be without god , without christ , without hope in the world ; not the children of god , but of the devil ; would all be damned , for out of covenant , and visible church ( ordinarily ) there is no salvation . 10. arg. lastly , that which hath continued since the apostles times with blessed success , must needs be lawful . but infant-baptism hath continued with blessed success since the apostles times . therefore infant baptism is lawful . wee l begin with the first centurie , or hundred years after christ . dionysius the areopagite whom the apostles converted at athens , says , holy men have received a tradition from the fathers , that is the apostles , to baptise infants . clemens ( who is recorded by some of the antients to succeed peter in his ministry at rome ) says {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , baptise your infants . ireneus ( who lived in the second century ) says , christus pro parvulis parvulus factus est , christ became a little one for little ones sake , that little ones might be received into covenant . origen that lived in the begining of the third century says , the church received a tradition from the apostles to baptize infants , and gives a reason , because they are born in impurity of sin ; nay pelagius , a great scholar , who lived in the latter end of this century , though he denyed original sin , yet confessed infant-baptism , for when they pressed him with this argument , if infants had not original sin what need they baptism , he answered , that christ appointed , and the church practised infant-baptism , not to purge sin by past , but to prevent it for the time to come . cyprian in the fourth century confirms it in his epistle to fidus , and gives an account of a council of sixty six bishops that decreed that infants should be baptized . ambrose says , because every age is lyable to sin , therefore every age is fit for the sacrament of baptism . nazianzene says it is better to seal infants with baptism , ( though they know it not ) then to leave them unsealed . austen is conceived to go too far , who denyed possibility of salvation to them that dyed un-baptized , pressing that place john 3.5 . except a man be born of water , and of the spirit , he cannot enter into the kingdom of god . the millevitan counsel in the fifth century decreed , that whosoever should deny that infants , even taken from their mothers wombs , might not be baptized , should be accursed . all churches , all ages since , agree in this ; the harmonies of confessions of all reformed churches , the church of england in the apologie , the old catechism , the twenty seventh article , the directory , the greater and lesser catechism composed by the assembly of divines , the late parliament by a further declaration , all confirm it ; the canons of our church did not only in former times declare , but the lawes of our land did punish anabaptists as hereticks . mr. fox in his acts and monuments approves of the albigenses , waldenses , wickliffists , lollards , poor men of lyons , brownists , barrowists , as members of the reformed churches , but wholly excludes the anabaptists , as erring fundamentally . i 'le say no more for confirmation of this polemicall discourse , but wind up all with a word of exhortation ; i beseech you brethren consider what a dangerous errour this is , that robbs the scripture of its truth , infants of their right , parents of their comforts , the church of its members , christ of his merits , god of his glory ; that is the mother of many other errours ; hence sprung the ranters , socinians , antitrinitarians , shakers , levellers , they that are above ordinances , antiscripturians ; an errour that god hath expressed many signall judgments against , as sleiden and gastius in germany , and some of our worthies in england have declared . as reverend mr. cotton tells one of his aposta●ed flock , that had his house burned , and his children in it , no wonder that fire seised upon his house , and god denyed water to quench it , who denyed that water should be brought to baptize his infants . secondly , consider that much benefit redounds both to parents , and children , by infant-baptism . first , much comfort comes hereby to the parents , when they consider gods free grace to them , and theirs , that he is not ashamed to be called their god , and the god of their seed after them . hebr. 11.16 . secondly , much benefit comes to infants by baptism , ( which the devill knowes well , when he causes witches to renounce their baptism , when they enter into covenant with him ) for they are thereby admitted into the bosome of the church , devoted , and consecrated unto god , his name is put upon them , they wear his royall badge , and by it they are distinguished from heathens . and this so clear from scriptures , truly , and spiritually understood , that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it . now the god of peace and truth , by his spirit , lead us into all truth , keep us pure , and unspotted in this houre of englands temptation , and triall , keep us faithfull to the death , that so we may receive a crown of life . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a62871e-320 and that by washing , as the proselytes and jews children were initiated . mr. cradock , and mr. walter . monmothshire . notes for div a62871e-14010 {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or to the water . apocalypsis, or, the revelation of certain notorious advancers of heresie wherein their visions and private revelations by dreams, are discovered to be most incredible blasphemies, and enthusiastical dotages : together with an account of their lives, actions and ends : whereunto are added the effigies of seventeen (who excelled the rest in rashness, impudence and lying) : done in copper plates / faithfully and impartially translated out of the latine by j.d. haestens, henrick van. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a57644 of text r16929 in the english short title catalog (wing r1945). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 189 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 53 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a57644 wing r1945 estc r16929 12062881 ocm 12062881 53313 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a57644) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 53313) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 577:5) apocalypsis, or, the revelation of certain notorious advancers of heresie wherein their visions and private revelations by dreams, are discovered to be most incredible blasphemies, and enthusiastical dotages : together with an account of their lives, actions and ends : whereunto are added the effigies of seventeen (who excelled the rest in rashness, impudence and lying) : done in copper plates / faithfully and impartially translated out of the latine by j.d. haestens, henrick van. davies, john, 1625-1693. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a57644 of text r16929 in the english short title catalog (wing r1945). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread [22], 78, [2] p. : ill., ports. printed for john saywell ..., london : 1658. "an alphabetical table ..." [i.e. index]: p. [1]-[2] at end. appeared also in: a view of all the religions in the world / alexander ross. london : [s.n.], 1658. first edition, london, 1655, translated by john davies from apocalypsis insignium aliquot haeresiarcharvm, lvgdvni-batavorvm : [s.n.], 1608, which was from a dutch original: growelen der vornemsten hooft-ketteren. leyden: h.l. van haestens, 1607. authorship attributed to hendrick lodevik van haestens. cf. d. clément, bibliothéque curieuse, t. 9. reproduction of original in huntington library. eng anabaptists. heresy. a57644 r16929 (wing r1945). civilwar no pansebeia: or, a view of all religions in the world: with the severall church-governments, from the creation, to these times. also, a discov ross, alexander 1658 31038 189 15 0 0 0 0 66 d the rate of 66 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-07 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-08 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2005-08 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion apocalypsis : or , the revelation of certain notorious advancers of heresie : wherein their visions and private revelations by dreams , are discovered to be most incredible blasphemies , and enthusiastical dotages : together with an account of their lives , actions , and ends . whereunto are added the effigies of seventeen ( who excelled the rest in rashness , impudence and lying , ) done in copper plates . faithfully and impartially translated out of the latine by j. d. the second edition . printed for john saywell , and are to be sold at his shop , at the sign of the grey-hound in little britain , and at the pile of bibles in the stocks fish-market , looking into lombard-street , over against the post-house , london , 1658. to the excellently learned , edward benlowes of brenthall in essex esquire , &c. worthy sir , i have here presumed to present you with a strange and bloody tragedy of hereticks and enthusiasts , written in latine by a most elegant pen , by one who hath concealed his name , as i conceive out of this reason , that , living near the times and places of this representation , it might have proved dangerous to him to have published it . here you have religion brought upon the stage in very strange disguises , nay they make her act parts the most cōtrary to her nature , imbruing her white & innocent hands in blood , & massacres . but as she hath met with wolves to destroy and tear in pieces , so hath she also met with shepheards to heal and protect , and among those the most laborious author of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} an●ebeia hath not bin the least considerable . his severe and most indefatigable labours in most parts of learning , are consummated in this piece of religion , wherein like an experienced anatomist , he hath left no vein un-cut up . to fall into excessive commendations of him , were to commit a moral absurdity , by praising one whom the general trumpet of fame hath blaz'd abroad for so great an advancer of virtue and learning ; but to trouble you with them , were yet to be so much the more importunate , whose conversation with him was so great , that whatsoever i may say of him , i shall not acquaint you with so much as your self know . nor did the influence of your patronage raise and animate onely him , but there are so many other monuments of your great encouragements to learning , that it will be thought modesty in me not to mention all . but your excessive benefactorship to the library of s. johns colledge at cambridge ( whereof i have sometimes had the honour to be an unworthy member ) i cannot passe over , as a thing , which will stand upon the file of memory , as long as learning shall find professors or children . and that which increases the glory of your munisicence , is , that that library may boast that it is furnished with the works of its owne sonnes , which , being the greatest act of retribution and gratitude that may be , must be accordingly acknowledged by all that shall come after . but that which hath the most engaged and satisfied the english world , is , that your endeavours have displayed themselves in their clearest light , in that one thing that is necessary , that is to say , religion , not only by being a constant assertor of her purity here in england , but in that , after more then ulyssean travels throughout most parts of europe , you have returned to your former enjoyments of that chast penelope , when others either out of weaknesse or surprise , are ensnared and besotted with the tenets of other countries , whereby they are both ingrateful and injurious to their own , by preferring the prudence and policy of another before hers . religion certainly , if well improved , is the talent , that felicifies the improver , if not , coademnes him . it is that universal patrimony , which entitles us to be the sonnes of god , and by which we are adopted into the assured hope of eternall hapinesse . it is the loadctone wherewith when our souls are once touched , they are directed to the right pole of the eternally beatificall vision ; and without which , wee must infallibly expect to split against the rocks and shelves of perdition . it is the consummation of heavens indulgence to mankind , that which doth familiarize us , and makes good our interest in the great being and cause of all things . it is the perfection of nature , since that whatsoever wee know of the divinity by her comes onely by the assistance and mediation of our sences , but the other furnishes us with a more evident assurance , ( and that , in things , which can bee neither seen , heard nor conceived ) , by the more particular providence of grace and faith , whereby hee is pleased to how down the heavens , and descend unto a familiar conversation with our very spirits . but that which ought further to endear all men to religion , is , that she only next to god may pretend ubiquity , as being a thing written in such indelible characters in the hearts of all men , that even the most barbarous nations , and the greatest strangers to civility and policy have acknowledged some divine worship , though their pravity or want of instruction , may have blinded them from the true , but yet that eclipse of the true god hath not been total , insomuch , as they have still retained a sense and veneration of religion , so that to the best of their imaginations , they have created something like god to themselves . to make this yet more evident , we are to note , that most people , though they had not so clear apprehensions of the immortality of the soul , as we have ; yet were they not only perswaded of the impossibility of its annihilation , but have also acknowledged rewards and punishments to be expected after this life . to ascend yet a little higher ; the divinity and preheminence of religion is demonstrated , in that it exerciseth that empire and soveraignty over the mind of man , that no blandishments of the flesh , no temptations , no torments have been able to dispossesse it . it hath triumph'd in the midst of its persecutions ; and by her sufferings hath conquered her persecutors . her pleasing ravishments can stifle for a time all sence of humanity , elude flames , and racks , and so arm the delicacie and tenderness of virgin purity , as to overcome the hardiest tyrants . it is she that raises our soules to a holy boldnesse and intimacy in our addresses to heaven , being indeed rapt into the heavens of divine contemplation , by her extasies and illuminations . it was her inspiring communication , that elevated your pious soul , when you described the divine perfections of the incomparable theophila . these things can she do and greater , when there is but one grain of true faith ; but when she is defiled and adulterated with humane ceremonies and inventions , she is deformed , and looses all her grace and beauty . and among these hath she met with two most importunate pretenders , atheisme and superstition ; the one strips her stark naked , the other meritriciously prostitutes her in the disguises of humane inventions . and that she hath been thus evill entreated , in all places and times , this book gives but too great testimony , whether you look on the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or this small appendix , treating for the most , of what happened in high and low germany . i would not draw any excuse for our own gyrations of religion here , from their madnesse ; but rather condemn them as things that would have out-vy'd the extravagance of the former . but to draw any argument against religion from either were impious ; for if we did , we must in consequence , deny all , both particular and universal providence of almighty god ; we must deny the scriptures , the heavenly legacy of eternal salvation ; wee must deny heaven , hell , eternity , nay take away the cement of all humane society , and expect to see the order and beauty of the universe hurried into darkness and confusion , since it ought not to out-last man , for whom it was created . nay ; but let us rather professe humanity , and make this use of the failings and extravagance of others in matters of religion ; to humble our selves to a relyance on that immense being , who hath thought fit to plant religion in the heart of man , to direct him in his voyage to eternall happinesse , wherein that every man might take the right way , is the earnest prayer of worthy sir , your most devoted , and most humble servant . jo . davies . these books printed for john saywell , are to be sold at the sign of the grey-hound in little britain , and at the pile of bibles in the stocks fish-market , looking into lombard-street , over against the post-house , london . that in●●●ming piece and catechistical foundation , entituled , viz. woll●bius , his abridgment of christian divinity ; englished , cleared , and enlarged , by alexander ross , author of that curious piece , entituled , viz. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or a view of all religions and church-governments in the world , with a discovery of heresies , in all agos and places ; &c. whereunto this apocalypsis is usually adjoined . that practical piece , entituled , viz. the returning backslider , ( and the saints privilege &c. ) or a commentary on the whole 14 chap. of hosea , the third time reprinted , being one of the legitimate pieces of that truly pious author , dr. richard sibbs . for the use of pious families , there is lately reprinted , mr henry smith's sermons , with gods arrow against atheists , &c. to which are now added , the life of mr. henry smith , by tho. fuller , b. d. and alphabetical tables very advantagious to the reader ; which additions aforesaid , contain three sheets at the beginning of the book , and five sheets at the end of the book , viz. eight in all , and distinguisheth them from all other ●●rreptitious and imperfect copie . three select and profitable sermons , entituled , viz. i. pre●●● & lachryma . ii. the christians desire . iii. the example of humility , by william houghton . the way to the highest honor , presented in a sermon before the house of peers , feb. 24. 1646. by w. strong . that judicious piece , entituled , the practice of quietness : directing a a christian how to live quietly in this troublesome world . by the late reverend bishop webbe . the history of the world , the second part , being a continuation of the famous history of sir w●… r●●l●igh , kt. begining where he left , and continued to the year 1640. with a large chronologie of those times , by alexander ross once chaplain in ordinary to his late majesty king charls , the first . the true copie whereof ( by the authors appointment and approbation ) is distinguished by the grey hound in the front-●p●ece from any other however coloured by a p●●tended ( though abusive ) representation of the reverend authour in the title page , or the delusive vision of ●irds , &c. of the pretender thereto . an exact collection of the choicest secrets in physick and chyrurgery ( both chymick and galenick ) by leonard phi●ravant , knight , dr. edwards and and others . a new primer , entituled , mr. h●●l's primer ; mo●e easie and delightsome for the learner than any yet extant , having 24 several representations of persons , beasts , birds , &c. answering the several letters of the alphabet , in a copper plate , laying also the surest foundation for true spelling ; the defect whereof ( in the ordinary teaching ) is very much complained of . mr. ●●●l's rud●ments of latine grammar usually taught in all schools ; delivered in a very plain method for young beginners , containing 1. the common accidents , examined and explained , called his posing book . 2. the terminations and examples of declensions and conjugations . 3. propria quae maribus , qua genus , and as in prasenti , englished and explained , for the use of young grammarians , with a necessary index to each part , called his ●arsing book : by help whereof ( in want of an able schoolmaster ) gentlemen may teach their children themselves with much ease and delight also mr. h●●l's grammar in latine and english , the shortest , order●●est , and plainest both for master and scholar , of any yet exstant . at his shop also gentlemen , country-book sellers , and chapmen may bee furnished or provided with all sorts of english & latine books , and of other forraign languages as they please . the authours preface to the reader . the doctrine of the anabaptists , courteous reader , to give it thee in a single expression , is nothing but lying and deceit . thou haply thinkest them a sort of people divinely inspired , and prophets : thou art deceived . they are false prophets and false teachers , as being a contagion , than which hell it self hath not vomited up a more dangerous since the beginning of the world . for i do not think it can bee easily demonstrated , what other mischief could have reduced not onely the netherlands , but almost all germany , into so great calamity and devastation . when i more narrowly look into the heresie of these men , i confess i am puzzel'd to finde a name for the monster , but what its aims are , i may haply guess . its first part speaks a lyon , its last a dragon , the middle a pure chimaera . i call it a monster , and i may add the most monstrous that ever was , as having in it the ingredients of all formerly condemned sects . which when i consider , me thinks all the ancient hereticks , such as nicholas anteochenus , the gnosticks , the valentinians , noetians , sabellians , patropassions , parmenians , present themselves anew out of hell to me . so that i can make no other judgment of thomas muntzer , that authour and raiser of a most pernicious sect , then that he hath re-erected the standards of all former heresies . but that it may not be said , as in the proverb , that affrick alwayes furnishes us with novelties , he also with his desperate disciples , hath sacrilegiously attempted to advance some altogether new and unheard-of opinions , whereof who shall say that which is made is good , must be very extravagant . out of these , have they resolved and decreed , that children till they come to age , are onely catech●…ni , and ought not to be clad with the robe of holy baptisme . out of these , have they declared a community of all things . out of these , teach to dishonour and discard magistrates , who are the living ectypes of god , while in the mean time they themselves aspire to soveraignty , and would be accounted potentates , when they are indeed the wickedst among men ; dissemblers , cheats , hypocrites , novators , or advancers of novelties , and the subtle generation of the old viper novatu . which said novatus , if i display in the colours wherein the holy father and martyr cyprian sets him forth , discreet men shall be my judges , whether i have not hit the mark , and the same description most sitly suits the greatest part of the proselytes of muntzer . as concerning novatus ( sayes that ornament of his carthage , lib. 11. epist. 8. to cornelius then bishop of rome ) we needed not any relations to be sent to us of him , since that from us you were to expect a more particular account of novatus , a man that is a constant advancer of novelties , of an insatiable avarice , furious in his rapines , blown up with arrogancie and pride , even to astonishment ; a man not admitting any good understanding with the bishops : the end of his curiosity is to betray , of his flattery to surprise , his love is dogg'd by his infidelity , he is the fuell and fire-brand that heightens the combustions of sedition , and the hurrican and tempest which causes the shipwrack of faith , an opposer of tranquility , and an enemy to peace . these were his thoughts of novatus , which what wise man but will allow us to attribute to our novators ? certainly , if john that botcher of leiden , the ulcer and deformity of that gallant city , were to be drawne in his own colours , we need borrow them no where else . you therefore , orthodox doctors , reduce those erroneous and miserably seduced men , which yet are so , into the way of truth , deliver them , i beseech you out of this phrensy , and omit no opportunities which may help to recover them out of this imaginary disease to which they are so accustomed . this shal bee your reward , this is the prize you shall obtain . him that overcometh , will i make a pillar in the temple of my god , and i wil write upon him the name of my god , &c. revel. 3. 12. 1 thomas muntzer . his opinions , actions , and end . the contents . muntzers doctrine spreads , his aims high , his affirmations destructive ; he asserts anabaptisme , rests not there , but grows worse and worse in his opinions and practises ; his large promises to his party and the common people : he endeavoured to set up himself , pretending to restore the kingdom of christ ; being opposed by the landgrave , his delusive animation of his followers , their overthrow ; his escape ; he is found , but dissembles him self ; is taken , but yet obstinate ; the landgrave convinceth him by scripture , when being racked , he laugheth , afterward relenteth ; his last words ; is deservedly beheaded , and made an example . 2 john mathias . the contents . john mathias repairs to munster , his severe edicts , he becoms a malicious executioner of hubert trutiling , for contumelious expressions touching him , his own desperate end . 3. john buckhold , or john of leyden . the contents . john buckhold his character , his disputing and contention with the ecclesciasticks concerning paedobaptism ; he succeeds john mathias , he comforts the people with a pretended revelation ; he makes bernard knipperdoling of a consul , to become common executioner , buckhold feigneth himself dumb , he assumes the magistracy , he allows polygamy , he takes to himself three wives ; he is made king , and appoints officers under him ; his sumptuous apparel ; his titles were king of justice , king of the new jerusalem ; his throne , his coin and motto thereon ; the king , queen , and courtiers wait on the people at a feast : with other d●gressions . the king endeavours to raise commotions abroad , is haply prevented . he suspects his own safety ; his large promises to his captains , himself executes one of his wives , he feigns himself sick , and deludes the people with an expectation of deliverance ; in the time of famine , forgets community ; he is betrayed by his confident , is brought prisoner before the bishop , who checks him ; his jesting answer and proposal , he is put to a non-plus , is convinced of his offences ; his deserved and severe execution . 4. hermannus sutor . the contents . herman the cobler professeth himself a prophet , &c. he is noted for drunkenness ; the ceremonies he used in anabaptisme , eppo his host discovers him and his followers to be cheats ; hermans wicked blasphemies , and his inconstancy in his opinions , his mothers temerity ; his sect convinced , and fall off from him ; by one drewjis of his sect he is handled roughly ; herman is taken by charles lord of gelderland , &c. and is brought prisoner to groningen ; when questioned in his torments , he hardened himself , and died miserably . 5. theodorus sartor . the contents . theodor the botcher turns adamite , he affirms strange things , his blasphemy in forgiving of sins , he burns his cloaths , &c. and causeth his companions to do the like . he and his rabble go naked ihrough amsterdam , in the dead of night , denouncing their woes , &c. and terrifie the people . they are taken and imprisoned by the burghers , but continue shameless . may 5. 1535. they are put to death ; some of their last words . 6. david george . the contents . david george , the miracle of the anabaptists . at basil he pretends to have been banished his country for the gospels-sake ; with his specious pretences he gains the freedom of the city for him and his . his character . his riches . he with his sect enact three things . his son in law doubting his new religion , is by him questioned ; and upon his answer excommunicated . his wifes death . he had formerly voted himself immortal , yet aug. 2. 1556 he died , &c. his death troubled his disciples , his doctrine questioned by the magistates , eleven of the sectaries secured . eleven articles extracted out of the writings of david george , some of the imprisoned sectaries acknowledged david george to have been the cause of the tumults in the lower parts of germany , but disowned his doctrin . conditions whereupon the imprisoned are set at liberty : the senate vote the doctrine of d. g. impious , and declare him unworthy of christian burial , and that his body and books should be burned , which was accordingly effected . 7. michael servetus . the contents . servetus his converse with mahumetans and jewes . he disguiseth his monstrous opinions with the name of christian reformation . the place of his birth . at the 24. year of his age , he boasted himself the onely teacher and seer of the world , he inveighed against the deity of christ . oecalampadius confutes his blasphemies , and causeth him to be thrust out of the church of basil . servetus held but one person in the godhead to be worshipped , &c. he held the holy ghost to be nature . his horrid blasphemy . he would reconcile the turkish alcoran to christian religion . he declares himself prince of the anabaptists . at geneva calvin faithfully reproves servetus , but he continues obstinate . anno 1553. by the decrees of several senates , he was burned . 8. arrius . the contents . arrianisme its increase , anno 323. the general council at nice , anno 325. called as a remedy against it , but without success . the arrians misinterpret that place , joh. 10. 30. concerning the father and the son . they acknowledged one only god in a judaeical sence . they deny the trinity . arrius his wretched death , anno 336. 9. mahomet . the contents . mahomet characterised . he made a laughing-stock of the trinity . he agreed with carpocrates , and other hereticks . he renewed circumcision , and to indulge his disciples , he allowed them polygamy , &c. his iron tomb at mecca . 10. balthazar hubmor . the contents . hubmor a patron of anabaptisme . he damned usury . he brought in a worship to the virgin mary , &c. the senate of suring by a council reduced him . he renounced the heads of his former doctrine . himself or sect still active . he is taken and imprisoned at vienna in austria . he and his wife both burned . 11. john hut . the contents . john hut the prop and pillar of anabaptisme . his credulity in dreams and visions . he is accounted a true prophet by his proselytes . at merhern , his fraternity became as it were a monastery . 12. lodowick hetzer . the contents . lodowick hetzer a famous heretick . he gaint proselytes in austria and switzerland . anno 1527 , at a publick disputation oecolampadius puts hetzers emissaries to their shifts . hetzer denied christ to be coessentiall with the father . his farewel to his disciples . he is put to death for adultery . 13. melchior hofman . the contents . hofman a skinner , an anabaptist ; anno 1528 , seduced 300. men and women at embda in west-friesland . his followers accounted him a prophet . at strasburg , he challenged the ministers to dispute , which was agreed upon jan. 11. 1532. where being mildely dealt with , he is nevertheless obstinate . other prophets and prophetesses deluded him . he deiuded himself , and volunt arily pi●●ed himself to death . 14. melchior rinck . the contents . melchion rinck , an anabaptist . he is accounted a not able interpreter of dreams and visions . his disciple thomas scucker in a waking-dream cut off his brother leonards head ; pretending for his murder obedience to the decree of god . 15. adam pastor . the contents . adam pastor a derider of paedobaptisme . he revived the arrian heresie . his foolish interpretation of that place , gen. 217. so often confu●ed . 16. henry nicholas . the contents . henry nicholas , father of the family of love . he is against infant-baptisme . his divellish logick . the end of the contents . thomas muntzer . his opinions , actions , and end . hei mihi quot sacras iterans baptismatis undas muntzerus stygijs millin tinxit aquis ! the contents . muntzer's doctrine spreads , his aim 's high , his affirmations destructive ; hee asserts anabaptisme , rests not there , but grows worse and worse in his opinions and practises ; his large promises to his party and the common people : he endeavours to set up himself , pretending to restore the kingdome of christ ; being opposed by the landgrave , his delusive animation of his followers ; their overthrow ; his escape ; he is found , but dissembles himself ; is taken , but yet obstinate ; the landgrave convinceth him by scripture , when being racked , hee laugheth , afterward relenteth ; his last words ; is deservedly beheaded , and made an example . about the year of our redemption . m. d. xxi . and m. d. xxii . there rise up in saxony near the river sales , a most insolent sect of certain enthusiasts , among whom nicholas storkius was no ordinary person . these presumptuously boasting that their dreams , visions and revelations , were inspired into them from heaven , had s●ily scattered it among other seditious persons of the same kidney ; that the world was to be reformed by their means , which done , and the wicked utterly cut off from the face of the earth , it should be governed by justice it self . all that gave not up their names , and embraced their sect , they branded with the name of ungodly . one of this sodomitical lake sprung thomas muntzer , one that boasted that hee had had communication with god . this man's doctrine incredibly spred , as being in the first place levell'd at the holy doctors of the reformed religion ; and from thence discharged at the magistrates themselves ; for the christian flock being once deprived of these two constitutions of men , there were nothing to hinder the greedy wolves to break out into all rapine and oppression . and this is the reason why the wolves , that is to say , the false teachers , have ever most violently opposed the the ministry and the magistracy , in hopes , if possible , to draw these from the care and charge of their flocks , or at least to bring them into contempt with their sheep , which by that means should stray into their parties . this muntzer did both by his teachings and writings publickly affirm , that the preachers of that time that contributed their endeavours to the advancement of the gospel , were not sent by god , but were meer scribes , and impertinent interpreters of the scriptures ; that the scriptures and the written word , were not the pure word of god , but onely a bare testimony of the ●●e wo●d ; that the true reall word was something that were intrinsecall and heavenly , and immediately proceeding out of the mouth of god , and consequently to be learned intrinsecally , and not out of the scriptures , or by any humane suggestion . with the same breath he brought baptisme into contempt , most inconvincibly affirming that there was no warrant from god for paedobaptisme , or baptisme of children , and that they ought to be baptized after a spirituall and more excellent dispensation . he further endeavoured to teach that christs satisfaction for us was unnecessary , whatever honest and weak understanding men could urge to the contrary ; that matrimony in the unfaithfull and incontinent , was a pollution , meretricious and diabolical ; that god discovered his will by dreames ( whence it was that he was mightily infatuated with them ) holding that those were ( as it were ) communicated by the holy ghost . hereupon was he acknowledged by his followers for some heavenly and spirituall prophet , and it was believed that he was thus taught by the spirit of god , without any humane assistance . this doctrine did he disperse throughou● all germany by printed books and epistles , which the tinder-brain'd disciples of his seditious sect were soon fir'd with , read , approved , and propogated . the same man in the yeares m. d. xxiii . and m. d. xxiv . taught at a●sted which is a city in saxony , near thu●ingia ; and when not onely the ministers , but also the magistrates lay under the lash of his calumny , insomuch that his sermons were stuff'd with most seditious and bitter invectives against them , and pretending to groan for the return of lost liberty , and for the insufferable pressures of the people under tyranny , he complained of it as a great grievance , that their wealth and estates were the prey of the magistrate , and therefore would peswade them that a remedy was timely to be applied to these things . being for this doctrine dispatched out of alsted , he comes to norimberg , and thence without discontinuing his journey into basil , and thence into switzerand , from whence at length he came to cracovia , where at a certaine town called griess●n , he continued some weeks . in the mean time he was no lesse idle then ever , and that especially in the county of stuling , where hee sowed so much of his contagious seed among his factious disciples , as afterwards thrived into an extraordinary harvest . at the same time he publickly scattered abroad his doctrine of baptisme , and the word of god , in such sort as we have touched before . departing out of his countrey , and wandring up and down mulhusium in the countrey of during , he w●it letters to some of the most confident to his religion ; by whose countenance and assistance factious spirits were sometimes more and more exasperated against the magistrate . some small time before the counntrey people took up arms , he sent up and down certain briefes by messengers , wherein were divers things , and among the rest was represented the greatnesse of those warlike instrments which were cast at mulhusium upon occasion of this sedition , so to encourage and enflame the fiery followers of his faction . for having stayed two moneths at g●lessen , and that he thought he could not so much advance his designes if he returned into saxony because his affaires prospered not according to his desires in those places , he returns back to the people of during and mulhusium . but before hee was arrived thither , luther had by letters forew●…ed the reverend senate of mulhusium concerning him , that they should beware of him as of a destroying wolfe , and fitte● to bee s●unned then serpents , or whatever mankind beares any antipathy to , for that both at swickaw , and not long before at alsted , he was accounted a tree sufficiently evill and corrupt , which bore no other fruit but tumult and inevitable destruction ; and one , who , no more then his comerades , could ever bee brought to make any defence of their opinions , among which was , that they all were gods el●ct and that all the children of their religion were to be called the children of god ; and that all others were ungodly , and designed to damnation . and divers other things to the same purpose were contained in the foresaid letter , which was dated from ●●imaria , on sunday , being the day of the assumption of mary , in the year m. d. xxiv . muntzer in the mean time with words plausibly sweetned , drew away she minds of all he could to savour his party , and by promising mountains of gold to the common people , to the end they should cry him up with the general acclamations of being a true prophet , it came to passe that a very great concourse of the dregs of the people repaired to him from mulhusium and other places ; nay , by his subtilty and the authority he had gotten , he perverted the very magistrate of mulhusium , and made him a new abettor of his opinion . and this was the first original of the mischief ; and thence divers other hydra's of seditions like so many excrescencies took a sudden growth from this . for all men's goods became common , and he taught that no man had any propriety in what he enjoied . to which he added , that it was revealed to him from god , that the empire and principalitities of this world were to be extirpated , and that the sword of gideon was put into his hands to bee emploied against all tyrants , for the assertion of true liberty , and the restauration of the kingdome of christ : and at this time he gave orders for the preparing of certain warlike engines . while he was wholly taken up about these things , that is , in the following year md. xxv . the countrey people throughout swedland and f●anconia , and diverse other places , rise up against their magistrates , forced away a great part of the nobility , plundered towns and castles , to be short , made an absolute devastation by fire and sword . the landgrave henry being moved at these things raises a wa●r , and fought the countrey people , the first time near frankenhusium , the fourteenth day of may , which done , he prepared himself for a second fight to be fought the next day , which muntzer having intelligence of , said by way of animation to his followers , what are those cannon-bullets ? i will receive them in my gloves , and they shall not hurt me , whereby the countrey people being encouraged , were the next day beaten by the landgrave , five thousand slain , and three hundred taken , who had all their heads cut off , so that , while they were ambitious of liberty , they lost even the liberty of life it self . and herein was the ancient proverb verified , war● is most delightful to those that had never experienced it . the discreeter part of the countrey peop'e , having laid down their arms , put their hands to the golden plough , to hold which they had been designed , rather than to mannage lances and pole-axes . mantzer escapes to frankenhusium , and hid himself in a house neer the gate , where a certain nobleman had taken up his quarters . this mans servant going up into the upper roomes of the house to see how they were accommodated , findes one lying upon a bed , of whom hee enquired , whether he were of those who had escaped the fight , which he denied , averring that hee had lain some time sick of a fever : whereupon looking about , hee perceives a little bag lying carelesly neer the bed side ; he opens it and finds letters from albert count of mans field , wherein hee dehor●ed muntzer from his wicked purpose , and from promoting the tumult already raised . having read them , he asked him whether they were directed to him , who denying he threatens to kill him ; whereupon he cried quarter , and confessed himself to be muntzer . hee is taken , and brought before george duke of saxony and the landgrave , whereupon they having made him confesse that hee was the cause of the popular insurrection , and sedition ; he answered that hee had done but his duty , and that the magistrates who were opposers of his evangelical doct iac , were by such means to bee chastised . to which the landgrave made answer , and proved it by several testimouies of scripture , that all honour is to given to the magistrate ; and that all tumult raised in order to a mans particular revenge , was by god forbidden christians . here muntzer being convinced , held his peace . being laid upon the rack , while hee cried out aloud and wept , the duke of saxony spoke to him to this purpose ; now thou art punished , muntzer , consider with thy self by what unspeakable ways thou hast seduced and brought so many to destruction ! whereat muntzer broke out into a great laughter , saying , this is the judgment of the countrey people . but when being brought to his death , hee was thrust into close prison , 't is wonderfull how faint-hearted hee was , and stood extreamly troubled in mind , not being able to give any account of his faith , but as the duke of saxony pronounced before him , and which hee told him , hee was to make a confession of before god : being surrounded with souldiers , hee openly acknowledged his wickednesse , and withall addressed these words to the princes that were present ; shew mercy and compassion , yee princes , lest hereafter , you incur by my example the punishment i now suffer ; read and attentively consider the holy books of the kings . having said this , his head was struck off , and fastened to a stake , for a monument and example to others . john mathias . primus hic e batavis muntzeri dogma sequutus turbavit miris westphala regna modis . the contents . john mathias repairs to munster , his severe edi●●s , he becomes a malicious executioner of hubert trutiling , for contumelious expressions touching him ; his own desperate end . in the year of our lord god , m. d. xxxii . at munster ( which is the metropolis of westphalia ) a certain priest called bernardus rotmannus undertook to preach the gospel of christ ; which being done with great successe , certain messengers were sent to marpyrgum , a place in hassia , whose business was to bring along with them some men of learning and good conversation , who should bee helpfull in the propagation of the gospel . from marpyrgum were there some dispatched , who arriving at munster , reduced the principall heads of christian religion into thirty nine articles , which they proposed to the magistrate , being ready , ( as they pretended ) to make good and prove the said heads , by places of the holy scriptures ; which was effected . the religious , and ( as they are called ) the spiritual who were possessed of the chiefest church , could by no means digest this , so that departing the city , they caused much trouble to the citizens . upon this weighty businesse , the magistrates and citizens sate in long and prudent consultations . at length there was a certain agreement , upon these terms , viz. that all injuries committed in those tumults should be pardoned , and that the gospel should be freely preached in six parish churches , and that the church of our lord only should be absolutely reserved to them . these conditions were readily subscribed to by both sides , and thereupon all things laid asleep in peace . but this peace was not long undisturbed by the devill , ( that irreconcileable enemy of peace and virtue ) and therefore by doing at munster what hee had done at other places , that is , by raising up out of the jaws of hell , the seditious and pestiferous anabaptists , those importunate disturbers and turn-pikes of the gospel ; his design was not onely to discourage the good and godly , but withall , shamefully to destroy the gospel it self . for in the same year there rise up at harlem a baker called john mathias , a man utterly unlearned , yet crafty and boldly eloquent . this man being excessively lecherous , neglected and slighted his own wife , who being somewhat well stricken in years , was so much the lesse fit for the exercises of venus . being therefore over head and ears in love with a certain vi●age who was an alehouse-keepers daughter , he could not resolve of any way more advantageous to seduce , then by an angelical carriage , and a counterfeit sanctity . he made frequent visits to her , and entertaining her with his visions and revelations , he thereby drew her to his opinion , and conveighed her into a secret place in amsterdam , where he professed himself a doctor and a preacher , affirming that god had revealed certain secrets unto him , not yet revealed to others , and that he was enoch the second high priest of god . upon some he laid hands and sent them two by two as apostles and messengers of christ , dispatching to munster one gerard a bookseller , and john buckhold the botcher of leyden , others into other places . these emissary messengers of christ , or rather of satan , boyled over with their various opinions , held marriages of no account , and dreamed diverse other things . some taught by parables , and their own illusive dreams ; others acknowledged not him a brother who desiled his baptisme with sins ; others preferred the baptisme of john before that of christ ; others taught that all magistrates , and whoever were unsatisfied with their religion , ought to bee destroied root and branch ; some would acknowledge nothing but their own visions and prophecies ; others , that all the prophets and teachers that were departed this life , should shortly rise again , and should reign with christ upon earth a thousand years , and should receive a hundred fold for what ever they had left behind them . some of these men affirmed that they had communication with god , some with angels ; but the more discreet and wiser sort of men conceived that their conferences had been with the divel . here upon the great prophet john mathias ( upon whose account his most vain apostles already proclaimed a peace ) perceiving an occasion by this means of domineering in this world , consecrated in his stead his disciple james campensis , a sawyer , bishop at amsterdam . committing unto his charge the people , to be seduced with the same zeal , as he had begun . these things being thus fairly carried , he repaired to munster to his apostle and ambassadour john buckhold , whom hee made governour of the city , who presently published these severe edicts . that every man should bring his gold and silver , and whatever were of greater importance , into the common heap , and that no man should detain any thing at his house ; for the receiving of which things so collected a place was appointed . though the people were not a little astonished at the rigour and severity of the edict , yet did they submit thereto . moreover he forbad the reading of all books but the bible , all which that they ought to bee burnt , the divine authority had by him , its witnesse commanded . at this very time a certain tradesman , whose name was hubert trutiling , had scattered some contumelious expressions concerning this great prophet ; where at he being immeasurably incensed , even to the loss of all compassion , caused the foresaid trutiling to be brought into the market place , where he is accused and sentenced . whereupon he himself laying his violent hands upon this innocent man , lays him along upon the ground ; in that posture he runs him through with a spear ; but finding by the palpitation , that there was some remainder of life , he made him to be conveighed thence , and taking a musket from one that stood by , which was charged , killed him , intimating that hee was commanded by god , that is to say , his own , ( who was a murtherer from the beginning ) to do what he had done . this noble exploit performed , he took a long lance in his hand , and hastily ●an about the city , crying out that hee was commanded by god the father to put to flight the enemy , which at that time had closely besieged munster . having taken the said weapon , and running like a mad man upon the enemy , hee himself was run through by a souldier of misna . john buckhold , or , john of leyden . agres●●●ssque nefas magnum et memorabile , regem somniat , abje●ta forfiee sceptra gerens . the contents . john buckhold his character , his disputing and contention with the ecclesiasticks concerning paedobaptisme ; he succeeds john mathias , he comforts the people with a pretended revelation ; he makes bernard knipperdoling of a consul , to become common executioner . buckhold feigneth himself dumb , he assumes the magistracy , he allowes polygamy , he takes to himself three wives ; he is made king , and appoints officers under him ; his sumptuous apparell ; his titles were , king of justice , king of the new jerusalem ; his throne , his coin and motto thereon ; the king , queen , and courtiers waite on the people at a feast , with other digressions . the king endeavours to raise commotions abroad , is haply prevented . he suspects his own safety , his large promises to his captaines , himself executes one of his wives , he feignes himself sick , and deludes the people with an expectation of deliverance , in the time of famine , forgets community ; he is betrayed by his confident , is brought prisoner before the bishop , who checks him ; his jesting answer and proposall ; he is put to a non plus , is convinced of his offences ; his deserved and severe execution . john buckhold was a botcher of leyden , a crafty fellow , eloquent , very perfect in the scriptures ; subtle , confident , more changeable then proteus , a serious student of sedition , briefly , a most servent anabaptist . this man being sent by john mathias to munster was a perpetuall thorn in the sides of the ecclesiasticks , craftily sisting them about the businesse of paedobaptisme , in which employment he spent nine whole moneths , and most commonly making his party good with them , both as to disputation and litigious contention , while in the mean time he secretly spawn'd and scatter'd the doctrine of anabaptisme , as much as lay in his power . about that time a certain unknown preacher of the word of god , one hermanus stapreda of meurs came to munster , who supplying the place of rotmannus in preaching , seduced him , and leavened him with anabaptisme , and he also publickly anathematized pedobaptisme . this gave occasion of raising tumults among the people ; they who before were onely secretly instructed by john buckhold , discover themselves openly to the world , and lay aside all disguises of their intentions ; in most parts of the city , they have their frequent meetings ; in divers houses , but all in the night time , whereat the magnistrates being incensed , and offended , prohibited their conventicles , and some they banished ; but they weigh not this any thing , and being sent out at one gate , they came in at another , and lay concealed among those that were the favourers of their sect. hereupon the senate caused all the ecclesiasticks to assemble at the palace , to dispute the businesse of paedobaptisme . in this assembly , rotmannus stood tooth and naile for the anabaptists , but those of the reformation fully refuted their errors , as the publick acts concerning that businesse do abundantly testifie . at this very time the minsters of the church of argentoratum signed and set out an account of their faith in a printed book . hereupon the senate of munster by a publick edict banished the anabaptists , out of the city ; which edict , they , persisting in contention , opposed , being now arrived to that rashnesse and impudence , that they thrust a reformed preacher , one peter werthemius out of the church . yea , some of them rioting about the city , ) whereof the ringleader was henry rollius ) cryed out as they went , repent and be rebaptized , otherwise will the heavy wrath of god fall upon you ! these things hapned about the end of the year m. d. xxxiii . and the beginning of m. d. xxxiv . some honest-hearted and harmlesse men , partly out of an apprehension of divine wrath ( as they made them believe ) partly for fear of men , suffered themselves to be washed in the laver of anabaptisme . for , the anabaptists leaving their dennes , broke into the city without any controll , and with an unanimous violence assaulting the market place , they soon possessed themselves of the palace and the magazine , sentencing with loud conclamations and such as required a greater voice then that of stentor , that all were to be destroyed as so many heathens and reprobates , that did not embrace anabaptisme . in this tumult , a certain young man of burchstenford was killed . this gave occasion both to the papists , and to those of the reformation to provide for their safety . the chiefest patrons of the anabaptistical heresy were , bernard rotman , john buckhold , bernard knipperdoling , gerard knippenburch , bernard krachting , &c. these two parties having skirmished with as great eagernesse and animosity as greater armies exasperated one against another , for some days , there followed a truce , whereby it was agreed that every one should quietly enjoy , and persever in his own religion . however the surges of anabaptisme were not yet laid , till they had entered into a conspiracy to drive those of the reformation out of the city . the most eminent of the conclave writ to the anabaptists of the cities adjoining , viz. to these of dulmen , coesvelt , soyst warendorp , and osenburg , that leaving all things behind them , they should repair with all speed to munster , promising they should have ten-fold what ever they left . being enticed by these propositions , husbands and wives leaving all behind them , came in swarms to munster . a great number of the more religious inhabitants looking on that strange rabble as an insufferable grievance to their city , left it to the disposal of the anabaptists , who being by this means increased in number , became also more extravagant , degraded the senate , and chose another out of themselves , wherein were consuls , gerard knippenburg , and bernard knipperdoling , whose effiges is the ensuing . bernard knipperdoling . quo non fastus abit ? quid non rex impius audet ? carnificem fecit , qui modò consulerat . being now become lords and masters , they in the first place seized on maurice church , and burnt it , and the houses all about it , thence falling forcibly upon other holy places and monasteries , they carried away gold , silver , ornaments and utensils , and whatsoever else was of any consequence . upon the fourth day after those rapines , trudging up and down the streets and high-ways , they with a horrible howling , uttered , repent , repent ! to which is added , depart , depart , bee gone yee wicked , otherwise woe bee to you ! this done , they immediately went armed in multitudes , and with unspeakable barbarisme and cruelty , turned out their miserable fellow-citizens , as enemies to their religion , out of their houses and possessions , and thrust them out of the city without any consideration of age or sex , so that many women with child had this misfortune seconded with that of dangerous abortions . the anabaptists presently by what right they please , seize to themselves the possessions of the banished : so that the honest and godly party being cast out of the city , fell into the hands of the souldiers , who had block'd up the city and all the avenues , as among enemies , by whom some were taken , others unadvisedly killed ; at which entreaty the other honester part of citizens being discouraged , and seeing , that guilty and not guilty fared alike , would not stirre a loot out of the city ; which being closely besieged by the bishops army , all places were filled with blood , sighs , tears . now do the mad men of munster , and such as no hellebore can have any effect on , grow insufferably insolent , and above all , that great prophet john matthias , of whom wee have spoken before : but that sally of his out of the city , those of munster looked on as a great omen of their destruction , and thought that the unexpected death of that most holy man did signify , that some great calamity did hang over their heads . but john buckhold must bee his successor , a lid fit for the other pot ; who addressing himself to the people , comforted them , perswading them that they ought not to mourn for that unlooked for miscarriage of the prophet , for that it had long before been revealed to him , and withall , that hee should marry his widow . upon easter eve they fell upon all the churches and places of devotion about the city , and pulled down all the brasse works . some few days after , bernard knipperdoling prophesied that all the chiefest men ought to be disqualified and degraded , and that the poor and the humble were to be exalted . hee also declared , that it was the command of the divine oracle , that all churches should be demolished , which indeed was sufficiently performed . the very same day john buckhold putting into the hands of bernard knipperdo ling , the executioners sword , conferred on him withall his employment , and that according to gods command ; so that he who had discharged the office of a consul , was now to execute that most dishonourable employment of a common executioner . this most excellent condition he cheerfully accepted . by this time had the city been besieged some moneths by the bishops forces when resolving to storm it , they lost both gentlemen , commission officers & others , to the number of about four thousand , upon which they quitted all hope of taking it by force . some few dayes after whitsuntide , the city being notwithstanding the dis-excecution of that assault stil besieged , was wholly taken up to rest and imaginary dreams , wherein there were spent three whole days ; which done , the anabaptist being awaken , acted the part of zacharias , john baptist's father ; for , pretending to be dumb , he desired to have a table-book ; wherein he wrote down the names of twelve men , who should be as it were the twelve elders of israel , and should administer all thing , at munster , as if it were the new jerusalem , and this he affirmed that hee was commanded to do from heaven . by this broke●y d●d this crafty knave chalk out his way to that soveraign dignity whereof he was so ambitious . but in the mean time , consider by what a strang stich this excellently wicked botcher did utterly dis-repute that magistrate whom god had ordained , and by the assistance of most illusive dreames & his own excellency of playing the impostor , he possessed himself of that dignity . a while after our prophet advanced certain conclusions tending to the allowance of polygamy , whereat the ecclesiasticks made some opposition , but afterwards were content of fit still . so that , not long after the prophet at one bout took to him three wives , whereof the most eminent was the widdow of the deceased prophet jo. mathias , and whom he afterwards dignified with the title of queen . this example of kingship , some other knaves like himself did without any difficulty admit ; but divers of the more godly citizens , looking on this thing with the greatest indignation that might be , repairing to the market place laid hands on the prophet knipperdoling , which occasioning the people to take up armes , they set upon those citizens in the palace , and having taken them , they delivered the prophet and the ecclesiasticks out of their hands . nine and forty of the said citizens were after a most barbarous manner put to death . hereupon the prophet cried our , that all those who should do any violence to those enemies of god , should do god a very high piece of service , whence it came to pass , that some were torn in pieces with hooks ; and not a few killed by knipperdoling himself . upon the four and twentieth of june , which is the day of the nativity of john baptist , in the year one thousand five hundred thirty four , at munster or rather monster ; ( for so may that place bee called from the monstrous and portentous pullulation of anabaptists ) there sprung from hell another new prophet , one john tuysentschreuer , a goldsmith of wa rendorp . the people being generally summoned to the market place , this man acquainted them , that the most holy prophet john buckhold of leyden was to bee exalted to kingly dignity , and that hee should inherit the eternall seat of his father david , and should possesse it with farre greater majestie . having prophecied these things , buckhold kneeling down confirmed all , saying , that so much had been revealed to him from god the father ten days before ; though it was against his inclination to undertake the difficulties of government . the common people being astonished at this extravagant piece of villany , tore their hair as they went ; yet however some might smell out the cheat , fear was able to stifle all muttering . for , this beast fatten'd for destruction , having been very successeful in som encounters , had now assum'd what authority he pleased . behold , he that at leyden was but a botcher , is made king at munster ; john buckhold is invested with all the regalia of supreme authority . having hereupon immediately degraded the twelve counsellours of state , according to the wonted manner , he constitutes a viceroy , a controller of his houshold , four huissers or common criers , a noble man , a chancellour , cup bearers , carvers , and tasters , and master-builders , and disposed of all other officers as princes use to do . the kingly robes were some made of water'd stuffs , some made of silk , some of pure silk , some scarlet , some made more sumptuous with the gold of the ornaments which the sacriledge had furnished him with , so that it can hardly be expressed how artificially , how gallantly , how indeed emperor-like they were interwoven , being embroyder'd with gold , edg'd , scollop'd ; and dispos'd into divers colours , his spurs were gilt with gold , and he had two crownes of solid gold , and a golden scabbard . the king walking in these ornaments , two young men in a courtly and magnisicent habit , one of each side of him accompanied him , whereof one carried a naked sword , the handle whereof glister'd with gold and precious stones ; the other held up the holy bible , together with a golden crown shining with most excellent pearls . a certain jewel dazeling the beholders with the bright sparkling of a diamond , and whereat was hanged a golden apple ( to repesent as it were the world ) wounded through with two swords a cross , hang'd at his neck . his scepter was set forth with three golden incirculations . his nobles , who were eight and twenty in number , clad in green and ashie coloured garments , and having on white turbants , accompain'd him . the kings title was , the king of justice , the king of the new jerusalem . in the market place there was erected a throne for him of three steps high , which , when the king sate in it , was adorned with ornaments of more then attalick sumptuousnesse . some money he caused to be coin'd , whereon was this latin inscription , verbum caro factum quod habitat in nobis , that is , the word made flesh , which dwelleth in us . the city being all this while besieg'd , the prophets and the doctors published the book callid the restitutions , wherein they endeavoured to defend that monstrous ( i would say munstrous ) and seditious tumult , and all those almost infinite inconveniences that were consequent to it : but to prevent that poysonous hydra , a gospell antidote was prescrib'd . in the moneth of august , about s. bartholomew's day , john tuysentschreuer went sounding a trumpet through all the streets , thereby inviting all to the lords palace , where there being a sumptuous feast prepared , he magnificently entertained all that came . the king himself , the queen , and all the courtiers waited on them . at the last course he gave to every one a loaf of unleavened bread , saying , take ●at , and celebrate the lords death ; which done , the queen in like manner carried about the cup , by which ceremony , the supper of the lord , or rather that scean of pleasure , wantonness , and temerity , was certainly very frolickly celebrated . hunger being banished sa●e enough by this feast , the prophet tuysentschreuer goes up to preach , requiring of them obedience and complyance with the word of god , whereunto , ( with one head and as with one eye ) they unanimously consented . this obtained ; he acquaints them , that it was revealed from the heavenly father , that eight and twenty ecclesiasticks should depart out of this city , that should preach our doctrine throughout the world , whose names he recommended , and designed the way they were to take their journey , that is to say , six for osenburg , as many for warendorp , eight for soyst , ( for which quarter he himself was one ) and the rest for coesveld . these exercises performed , the king went to supper , and at the second watch of the night caused the fore-mentioned apostles to take their journey , giving unto each of them a peece of gold , with this charge , that neglecting their own safety , they should deposit it for a note and testimony of consequent condemnation wherever they bestowed it . they went their wayes , and never returned again , all having ( except one who escaped the gallows ) met with punishments corespondent to their sedition . for , being entred the fore-recommended cities , they in a direfull manner howl'd out their , kepent , repent , the axe is laid to the roat of the tree ; if you repent not and be rebaptised , woe be to you , ye are undone . but the severall senates of the said cities caused them to be apprehended , and brought before them to give an account of themselves ; who answered , that they were divine preachers of the gospel , called and sent by god , and that all those who would receive their doctrine must be baptized , and that all things were to be made common ; but to those that should neglect these things , they were to leave the golden coin of eternal damnation . nay further , that the gospel had not been preached as it should have been , since the times of christ and the apostles , but that there were two prophets , the progeny of truth it self , slipp'd down as it were from heaven , viz john of leyden , and david george born at delph in the low-countries , that there were many false prophets , that is to say , the pope of rome , and martin luther , of ●ittemburg , who was worse then the pope . being taken and cast into irons , they were asked , by what right or priviledge they had thrust out of the city so many godly people , together with their wives and children , not granting them any toleration for their religion , and had disinherited them of all they had ? to which they replied , that the time was now drawing nigh , wherein the meek and the humble should inherit the earth , and that they followed the example of the israelites , who with gods approbation ●ook away from the egyptians their fewels and ear-rings . moreover they hoasted that munster was well furnished with provisions , ammunition , and all things requisite to war , and that the king did daily expect great recruits out of holland , zealand and other places , by the means and assistance whereof , hee should bring the whole world under subjection ; and all wicked and refractory princes being subdued , should establish the peaceful reign of justice . about the same time another prophet fel down from heaven , one henry hilverse , a notable knave . this man acquainted the king that it was revealed to him from heaven , that god was pleased to bestow on him three most rich cities , amste●dam , daventry , & res●l , near lippa . upon this divine message , hee advises with his counsellours , whom he were best to send ●●ither to baptise them with his baptisme . in the first place he sends john campensis to amsterdam , to bee the chiefest man in that city , to whom he assigned for companion and co-apostle john matthias of mtellburg . these being sent into holland , issuing out of their holes , kept themselves among those of their own tribe , and infected most cities with the mortall infection of their doctrines . for at leyden about january in the year following , viz. one thousand five hundred thirty and five , very many by the perswasion of anabaptisme , and by the means of its contagious conventicles , were baptized into the baptisme of death . about the end of the year one thousand five hundred thirty and five , this kingly botcher sent into friezland a most subtle fellow , and one very well experienced in warlike affairs , whom he furnished with very great summs of money which had been raised out of the sacrileges , wherewith he should raise souldiers in zealand , and should raise the close siege which was then before the city . he being departed , managed his affairs very secretly with the assistance of those of his way , and at length , upon the last of march one thousand five hundred thirty and five , having gotten together some hundreds of souldiers he setupon the monastery , which also was called old munster , drove away the monks , and having plundered all , he there pitched his tents , out of hope thereby to strengthen his party by the accession of any that should come in . but george sckenck the then gouernor of friesland , having with as much expedition as could be got together certain expeditionary forces , besieges these tumultuary rioters , and gave an assault to the place , which though they avoided as much as might be by a gallant defence , yet had they their belly●ull of murther , blood , and dry blowes , so that they were all destroied , save threescore and two , who being brought to leoward were paid for their audacious folly with the wages of death . the ring-leader of this businesse , who was also the camp-m●ster , john geel escaping at this fight , flies to amsterdam , to prove the occasion of a greater slaughter . for many anabaptists being found in that place , whom john campensis had strangely fascinated , to engage them the more , they made promises to them of golden mountains , and talk'd highly of the magnificence and liberty of the anabaptists of munster , and cried up the new kingdome of justice upon earth ; for the report of the siege and defence of munster had smitten , and raised up the minds of a many ; in regard the city being closely besieged by a potent army , yet performed religious duties without any disturbance . hence came it to passe , that the liberty and liberality of the city was celebrated beyond all truth and belief , and there wanted not a many who desired to be embarqu'd in the same fortune . there was therefore at amsterdam a burgher called henry gotbelit , a strong man and warlikely given , who being bathed in the waters of anabaptisme , joyned his endeavours with those of john geel . for by divers pretences and crafty shifts ( which it is not worth our labour to repeat in this place ) they drew together six hundred anabaptists , with whose assistance their intention was to have possessed themselves of amsterdam , to enrich themselves , and to introduce the religion of those of munster . whereupon , upon the tenth day of may , the chiefest that were engaged in this conspiracy , having their rendezvous at the house of peter gael , broke out in the night time to the market place , wherin being more and more seconded by some of their own , they killed some of the watch , and some they kept prisoners . but the burghers making head , discharged some musquets at the anabaptists , who most unworthily , when their consuls were cruelly killed , entrusted their safety to their heels ; so that the others courages being heightened by this , they violently ran upon the deuterobaptists , and after a most bloody engagement put them to the worst , wherein john geel and gothe it were slain , james campensis was taken and put to death . now other tumults had already forced others from those places , the prevention whereof could not be possibly without the infinite inconveniences which fell upon the lionester sort . there wanted not also some clandestine vipers , who diguisedly waited for the restauration of the kingdome of israel ( as they called it ) whereof one being apprehended at leyden , and upon examination put to the question , confessed , that the king of the anabaptists , who was a hollander , sojourned then at utricht , and had not yet began his reign , but that according to the good hope they had conceived of him , and the confidence placed in him , they doubted not but he would undertake i● . having with what 's above , gotten out of this fellow , that some gold and silver vessels and other ornaments had by a most wicked surprise , been taken out of their churches by the means of their king , and who with his followers had attempted some most detestable villanies , it was dicover'd that there could no other be meant then david george . i crave thy pardon , courteous reader , if i acquaint thee , that it is not any thing the lesse for thy advantage , if , in the description of these rotten and contemptible rags and menstruous clouts of humanity , i have woven a longer web of discourse then thou didst expect . although john buckhold , and the other prophets had entertained the ignorant greedy vulgar with hopes of more then arabian wealth ; yet the citizens being daily more and more streightned by the siege , were accordingly brought into greater perplexities , and being brought low by the famine , which is the consummation of all misery , began , as it for the most part happens , upon the barking of the stomack , to snarle at one another , to grumble and complain , and to hold private consultations about the taking of their king , and by delivering him to the enemies , to better the terms of their composition . but the king , the stitcher and botcher of all deceit , being afraid of himself , chose out of all the people twelve men in whom he could place most confidence , and these he called his captains , assigning to them their severall guards and posts in the city , which they were to make good . this done , he promised the citizens that the close siege should be raised before easter , for he was confident that a certain emissary , whom he had sent into zeland , holland and friezland should return with such supplies , as by a furious and desperate assault made upon the besiegers should deliver the city : but hope it self was to him become hopelesse , nor could safety it self save him . to his captains as he called them , 't is incredible what wealth he promised , such as the fabulous riches of pactolus and the treasures of midas should not make good , with oceans of goods ( which happly must be paid them out of his dreams ) and that after the city were relieved , they should be dukes and governours of provinces , and particularly that john denker should be elector of saxony ? but behold , in the moneth of february , a sad face of things appeared , many being meerly starved to death , which occasioned , that one of his queens ( for he had gotten a many ) elza or elisabeth , who was distinguished by the name of the glove maker , had bin often heard to say , that the most cruel sword of famine came not from god , which though he had not heard himself , having caused her to be brought with his other wives into the market place , he struck of her head , kneeling in the midst of them , which done ; insulting ●…er her , he affirmed that she had carried her self as a common prostituted whore , and had been disobedient to him , while in the mean time her fellow queens sung this hymne , glory be to god on high , &c. easter day being now dawning : and no hope of deliverance shining on them , the common people with just reason were extreamly astonished ; nor , confide●ing how things were carried , could they have any longer patience . in this conjuncture of affairs , to elude the people , according to his wonted insinuations , he feigns himself to bee sick , and that after six daies , he would appear publickly in the market-place , but that as to the deliverance which they were to expect according to his intimation , it was to be understood after a spiritual manner , and so it should certainly come to passe for he affirmed for a most certain truth , that in a divine dream he saw himself riding on an asse , and bearing the unspeakable weight of fin , and that all that had followed him were freed from their sins . but indeed they may be fitly said to be like asses that rub one another ; or to the blinde leading about the blinde . it is a great affliction , it is a pennance to repeat the miseries and the wofull consequences of famine and want . there were a many who being impatient of so long hunger , revolted to the enemy , not so much out of hope of compassion , as to accelerate their own deaths ; not a few creeping upon all four , endeavored to get away ; for being weak and strengthlesse , they could hardly fasten their feet on the ground ; some falling down were content to give up the ghost in the place where they lay . there you might see a sad spectacle of foreheads and cheeks pale as ashes , temples fallen , eies sunk into hollownesse , sharp noses , ears shrivel'd , lips black and blew , throats slender as those of spiders ; to bee short , hippocratical faces , living carcases , and excellent shadows of men . they had sown certain kinds of seeds and pulses in the city which for a time served for high delicacies to the grumbling stomach ; but these being soon devoured by the hungry belly ; cats , dormice , and rats , which themselves were almost starv'd to anatomie , became ( doubtful ) entertainments . some were reduced to that inhumane necessity , that they fed on the flesh of the buried carcasses ; some drest the feet of sweaty woollen socks , some cut to pieces the parings of tanned leather , and mincing them with some other things , bak'd them and made them serve for bread . to this wee may add , that the most wickedly obstinate citizens were not yet convinced , that by crafty infinuations and specious suggestions they were brought into the noose , whom therefore he stil entertained with considerations of magnanimity , and the deliverance they were yet constantly to expect from god , but as for those who admitted any thoughts of running away , and endeavoured to avoyd their miseries , he peremptorily sends for , and like a publick robber taking away all that their industry had furnished them with , depart , says he , and be gone to the hereticks , and bid sarewel to this place . the king , though he had gotten at his house sufficient provision for two months , yet was he willing to imbrace all occasions wherby he might keep up the heart of the city which now continually barked for sustenance . to which end , behold a certain man named john longstrat , being a nobleman and privie counsellor to the king , and one of whom he was very confident , boasted that he would within fourteen days reliev this hunger-starv'd city , both with provisions and supplies of men , to the number of three hundred . by this pretence hee flyes to the enemy , and betrays the city to the bishop , for a certain summe of money with his life included . the eve of saint john was appointed for the execution of this design , about ten of the clock , at which time hee had obliged himself by oath to cause the gate called the crosse-gate to be opened . this commissary for provisions returning at length to the city , assured the king upon his saith and reputation , that the said recruits of provision and forces , should be ready within the time appointed . the day assigned being come , hee acquaints the guards that the promised forces , were to come in in the night ( which would bee starr-light enough ) that so they might receive them as friends . the gates are hereupon set open , and the enemies being admitted into the city as into another troy , upon the watch-word given , soon dispatch'd the guards and others that were neer . now could bee nothing heard for the cry of armes ; armes . the king and his courtiers being gotten into a body , drove back the enemie to the gates , which the citizens had by that time shut again : whereupon the rest of them that were without : were forced to set engines to force open the gates , which being once broken open , they flourished and set up their colours . the citizens stiffely resisted the first assault , and made a strong body in the market place , where the fight became very hot and bloody . the king himself , knipperdoling and krachting fell into the enemies hands ; but rotman seeing there was no possibility of safety , rushing where the enemy was thickest , was trod to pieces ; hee it seems placing all hopes of life in death . the anabaptists upon the taking of their king being quite cast down and discouraged , went and hid themselves in larders , kitchins , and other lurking holes . the city was most unmercifully plundered ; and to make a full search of it , there were ten days allotted . there was found by those of the kings guard at the royall palace as much provision as would maintain two hundred for two mouths . o goodman king , where is now the community of goods and provisions which your religion holds forth ? this sad fate did that city suffer in the year one thousand five hundred thirty and five . the third day after this sacking of the city , the king was carried to the castle of dulmen , three miles off . the bishop having caused the king to bee brought with all speed before him , said to him , o thou cast away of mankind , by what deplorable means hast thou corrupted and destroyed my people ! to which the king , with an undisturbed and proud deportment made answer thus ; o thou pope , have wee done thee any injury , by delivering into thy hands a most well-fortified and invincible city ? but if thou thinkest thy self any way injur'd or endammag'd by us , if thou wilt but hearken to our advice , thou shalt be easily enriched . the bishop hardly abstaining from laughing , desired him to discover that secret , to which hee replyed . cause an iron cage or basket to bee made , and cover it with leather , and carry me into all the parts of thy country to be seen for a shew , and if thou take but a penny of every one for the sight , assure thy self it will amount to more then all the charges of the war . the more eminent anabaptists wore about their necks a certain medall wherein was the effiges of their king , to which were added these ietters , d. w. f. whereby was signified , that the word was made flesh . but the king being carried up and down as a captive with his two associates , was shewn to divers captains and ecclesiasticks of the landgrave , which gave occasion of dispatation between them about some things , as of the kingdom of christ , and of magistracy , of justification , and of baptisme , of the lords supper , and of the incarnation of christ , as also of matrimony : in which disputation , they prevailed so far by the divine testimonies of holy writ , that they brought the king of the anabaptists , ( though not acknowledging the least satisfaction ) to a non-plus , who to obtain another disputation out of hopes of life ( as was said ) promised , that hee would reduce the anabap●ists which swarmed in holland , braband , england , and friezland ; and that he would do all honour to the magistrate . upon the twentieth of january one thousand five hund●ed thirty and six , he is brought with his companions to munster , where they were secured in severall prisons ; two days were spent in weeding and rooting up their errors . the king indeed confessed his offences , and cast himself wholly upon christ ; but his companions discover'd a vain obstinacy in the defence of their cause . the next day the king is brought to the place of execution , fasten'd to a stake , and is pulled piece-meal by two executioners , with pincers red hot out of the fire . the first pains he felt , hee suppressed , at the second hee implor'd gods mercy . for a whole hour was hee pull'd and delacerated with those instruments , and at length , to hasten somewhat his death , run ●hrough with a sword . his companions were dipped with the baptisme of the same punishment , which they suffered couragiously ; all whose carcasses put into iron baskets ; as anathema's of eternal example hang out of the tower ●f s. lambert . and this was the retiring room of the tragedy of munster . hermannus sutor , hic qui se christum , et qui se jactârat iesum , servasse haud potuit seque suisque fidem . the contents . herman the cobler professeth himself a prophet , &c. he is noted for drunkennesse ; the ceremonies hee used in anabaptisme , eppo his host discovers him and his followers to be cheats ; hermans wicked blasphemies , and his inconstancy in his opinions , his mothers temerity ; his sect convinced , and fall off from him ; by one drewjis of his sect he is handled roughly ; herman is taken by charles lord of golderland , &c. and is brought prisoner to groeninghen ; when questioned in his torments , he hardened himself ; and died miserably . that there were divers emissaries and ambassadours sent by the king of the anabaptists into holland , friezland , and other places to raise souldiers , you have understood out of the history of munster ; which souldiers having raised a tumult , caused the bishop to discamp from before munster ; and of this heard was there one nicholas alcmariensis , a worthy disciple of john mathias , who being dispatched into friezland for the foresaid negotiation , got together a promiscuous crue of anabaptists for● the relief of munster : but that it might appear how real and effectual he was in the businesse , they sent two of their fellow-soulders , antony cistarius , and a trades-man whose name was james , to munster . these two with some others having compassed their desires at a town called opt'zant , having shuffled together from all parts into a kind of a troop , made their rendezvous at the house of one eppo , about the twilight out of a pretence that they there should meet with some later intelligence , which they receiving from their ambassadors , out of very joy for those good tidings , absolutely broke forth into tumults . the bell-weather of these , was one herman [ an excellent vamper of all abomination ] a cobler of opt'zant , who professed himself a true prophet , and that he was the true messias , the redeemer and saviour of the world , nay , ( which causes horror to me in the relation ) that he was god the father . this fellow lay naked in his bed from the privy parts downward , and caused to be laid near him a hogs-head of strong beer , which he desired to drink in healths , which required no small draughts ; for he had gotten an excessive thirst , greater than that of any dog ; or that which the serpent dipsas causeth in those that are stung by it ; & all through his extraordinary bellowing and bawling . for , having for some dayes led a life like one of epicurus's herd ; that is to say , being drunk even to extravagance , hee with a stentors voice , and a horrid howling , among other things often repeated this ; kill , cu● the throats without any quarter , of all these monkes , all these popes , and all , especially our own magistrate ; repent , repent , for your deliverance is at hand , &c. in the mean time , hee , with the assistance of his fellow souldiers , denounced to certain proselytes of another religion , that peice was not to be rejected without incurring the dreadfull effects of the last judgment , which was now at hand , and these were such as both by sollicitations and promises , his main design was to inveigle into his deceit . moreover hee sent to redeem some of his followers out of a prison belonging to a certain nobleman called john of holten , with this charge , that they should kill with swords and pistols , whosoever should either by words or blows any way oppose them . when they returned with their delivered captives , they had dispatched a man ( it is thought hee was priest ) looking out at his door , with a musket , had he not turned his back and shut the door against them . the very same night , which was to bee the last , or wherein the world being to bee turned to deceitfull ashes , they expected it should by the means of this mediator and intercessor ( as was thought ) presently bee restored to liberty , there were a great many that embraced him where ever they could , with those complements which they should use to one , as without the earnest of whose baptisme , they were to expect the reward of disobedience , and eternall destruction to bee trrasured up for them . the sacrament of anabaptisme being according to these cerremonies celebrated , the fore-commended parent exhorted his children to prayer in these words , pray , pray , pray , pray , mouthing it out with an agitation of his lips , like that of our sto●ks ; which done , falling on their knees , they disgorged , a strang vicissitude of prayers and songs . the owner of that house , who was an inn-keeper , and withall lame , sate neer this great father , towards whom the father turning , said unto him , arise and walk . but eppo being still lame , and seeing that they were all deceived , and that by a sort of cheats wickedly stitch'd together , withdrew from them , and hid himself for fear in anothers man's house far from thence . these things being thus past , there rises up another , one cornelius * coemiteriensis ; who ran about after a most strange manner , and when the father [ of all execrable temerity ] lay sick in his bed , tormented with an imaginary , or at least such a disease as puzzelled the physicians to find any name for ; this man for an hour together uttered these and such expressions : o father , look upon thy people ; have mercie upon thy people : o let thy bowels , o father , be moved to compassion : &c. at which addresses the father being moved , he commanded a tankard of beer to be drawn out of the hogshead , which was now almost at the bottom , which he drinking to his son , drank till it came to the lees , which presenting to his son , hee said to him , drink up the holy ghost . the son like his father , and following his example , having taken it off , he flings out of bed , and falls upon those that stood by , and tossing the tankard from one hand to the other , ran up and down like a drunken man , and at length joined with the father [ who was sick of an imaginary extravagance , wherein he was much given to laugh ] in roaring out these word ; mortifie the flesh , mortifie the flesh ; the flesh is a divel , the flesh is a divel , mortifie the flesh ; &c. upon this there immediately starts up another , pursued ( as he thought ) by an extraordinary vision , and after their example , roared it out most furiously , which fellow ( as was reported ) was really advanced to some degrees ( if not the supreme ) of madnesse . a certain woman better than middle-aged , being frighted almost out of her wits , by the bawling and howling of this sonne , intreated that they would keep in the lunatick and possessed person , and that hee might be carried to bedlam . the common people being astonished at this impious , hellish crue ; were forced to pinne their faith upon their sleevs , as a truth confirmed by the lying of those prophetical mouthes . these ●elapses of fury and madnesse , having their intervalls of calmnesse and ●erenity , he admonished them , that all arms and weapons were to be laid aside , and that they should put off their guarded , edged and scolloped garments , and their wrought smocks and petticoats , nay that women ought to abstain wearing their neck-laces , and all things that were burdensome , intimating the manner wherein god that needs no arms , would fight their battels for them , and should discomfit all their enemies . the cowardly and inconstant vulgar being moved at the madnesse of this doctrine , disburthened their bodies of all manner of cloathing . a certain harmlesse man having cast away his knife , takes it up again , which his daughter looking asquint upon , rebuked her father ; to which he answered , be patient , be patient , daughter , we shall have emploiment hereafter for this to cut bread withall . o how was this girle once a childe , but how was the old man twice ! when the student of bedlam , the son , with his yelling , was exhorting the bewitched people to singing and praier , and to resist the divel , the father presently with his own son , in whom he was well pleased , taught them , that the time of praier being done , and that the time of war coming on , they must take up the instruments of war ; whereupon he gets up into a pulpit , and declared himself to the people who stood all about him , with a loud voice , that he was the sonne of god , and cried out that he was born a true mediatour unto them , &c. his mother being there present , they asked her whether she was the mother of the son of god ? to which between force ●nd fear , she at length answered , though innocently , that shee was . this gave occasion to many to bee diffident , and to waver in the faith received ; insomuch that a certain man discovering his dissatisfaction , and speaking ill of the sonne , the said sonne taking hold of him , flings him into a common shore , saying unto him , now art thou deservedly cast into hell : from whence the said man coming out all dirt , diverse others unanimously acknowledged that they were defiled and bespattered with the same filthiness and abomination . and hence rise up that impious report of the sonne of god , that hee was thrust out of doors , which that ambassadour antony , being returned from munster , having heard took it in mighty indignation , and by force breaking into the house , would have vindicated those holy expressions . the father and son , were much against it that any should come in ; yet hee , though the people flocking about him made some opposition , bitterly rebuking that blasphemous wretch , broke forth into these words , thou villanous and contagious burthen of the earth ; what madness , what extravagance hath bes●tted thee without fear of divine judgement , to assume to thy self the title of the son of god ? which spoken , swelling up with the leaven of wrath , he ca●●s himself upon the ground , whereupon the people ran violently upon him , knocking , beating , and kicking him like a foot-ball ; at last being well loaden with blows hee rises , and breaking through the presse of the people , he got away and escaped . in his way hee comes to a hole in the ice broken for the cattle to drinke , twenty foot over , which hee made a shift to get over , as is said , with the help of the devill ; for many that would have found him out , lost their labour . all being now convinced that they were abused , for fear of the most noble charles lord of gelderland , the viceroy of groningen ( called also king of gelderland ) who was sent to appease that tumult , got secretly away . but before they were all departed , one of them called drewjis ( whom they called doctor nucius ) out of pure spight , laying hold of the father , being sick in his bed , thundred to him in these words ; thou villain , thou fruit and groanings of the gallows , where , where is now your governing , and authority ? now the time of prayers is past , &c. having dragg'd him out of bed by head and shoulders , they with some assistance , bound him with cords ; and delivered him to the custody of the mistresse of the house to bee safely kept till night . in the mean time the valiant charles surrounds the house with his men , and besieged it , which the woman seeing , cut the co●ds . being loose , hee takes a trident fork wherewith assaulting them as with a sword , he put to flight forty men through other houses , whom he hastily pursuing , was unawares surprised by others , and brought to groningen . but behold the miracle ! to that very place , where this naked [ of all truth ] messias with his fork● scepter , and this shoomaker of cobler beyond his last , had with his trident put so many to flight , did the water-dreading anabaptists resort and ●ender unto god infinite thanks for the 〈◊〉 us privilages thereof . of this lewd messias , who was ●ow well acquainted with the fetters of groningen , it was asked in his torments , whether those routs ( of whom he was ring-leader ) were out of pretence of sanctity raised to rob the publick treasuries , ( as many thought ) which yet ( as some say ) was denied . for , he hardening himself against even the most cruel torments could be inflicted on him , still cried out ; destroy , destroy , destroy monks , fo●●s , kill all the magistrates , and particularly our own . in the midst of these bawlings being miserably worried ou● , he gave up the ghost . theodorus sartor . quis qu●●●o hic sartor nudus qui deperit ? ille quî rogo ●●ruentis nomine dignus ●●at ? the contents . theodor the botcher turns adamite , hee affirms strange things , his blasphemy i● forgiving of sins , he burns his cloaths , &c. and causeth his , companions to do the like . he and his rabble go naked through amsterdam in the dead of night , denouncing their woes , &c. and terrifie the people . they are taken and imprisoned by the burghers , but continue shamelesse . may 5. 1535. they are put to death ; some of their last words . in the year of our lord one thousand five hundred thirty and five , upon the third of februay at amsterdam , in a street called salar street , at the house of john si●●id a cloth worker , who at that time was gone into austria about some businesse , there met seven men anabaptists , and five women of the same perswasion , of which flock , the bell-weather was theodorus sartor , who rapt into a strange enthusiasme and extasie , stretching himself upon the ground stark-naked upon his back before his brethren and sisters , seemed to pray unto god with a certain religious dread and horrour . having ended his prayers , he affirmed that he had beheld god with his eyes in the excessive and ineffable riches of his glory , and that he had had communication with him , both in heaven and in hell , and that the day of his judgment was at hand . after which he said to one of his companions , thou art decreed to eternal damnation , and shalt be cast into the bottomless pit ; at which the other crying out , the lord god of mercy have compassion on me ; the prophet said to him , be of good chear , now art thou the sonne of god , thy sins are forgiven thee . upon the eleventh day of february , the foresaid year , the persons aforementioned , unknown to their husbands , repaired to the same aug●●●'s stable . this prophet , or seer , having entertained them with a sermon of three or four hours long , casts a helmet , a brest plate , a sword , and other armes , together with all his clothes into the fire , being thus stark naked , and his companions who yet had their cloaths , being uncovered , he peremptorily commanded them to do the like , as being such as must be as safe as himself . he further affirmed , that the children of god ought to look upon all things of this world with contempt and indignation . and since truth , which is most glorious in her nakednesse , will not admit the deformity of any earthly disguise whatsoever , he affirmed that they ought in all things to conform themselves to that example of truth and justice . a great many hearing these things having quite cashier'd all shame , offered up their shirts , smocks , and petricoats , and whatsoever favoured of earth , as a burnt-offering unto god . the mistresse of the house being awaken by the stink which these cloaths made in burning , and going up into the upper chambers , she findes this deplorable representation of immodesty and impudence ; but the power and influence of propheticall integrity brought the woman to that passe , that she was drawn in to wallow in the same mire of unshamefac'dnesse , whom therefore he advised to continue alwayes a constant adherer to the unblameable truth . going out of the house in this posture , about three of the clock , the other men and women marched barefoot after him , crying out with a horrid voyce , woe , woe , woe , the heavy wrath of god , the heavy wrath of god , &c. in this fanatick errour did this hypocondriack rabble run about the streets , making such a horrid noise , that all amsterdam seemed to shake and tremble at it , as if it had been assaulted by a publick enemy . the burghers not having the least hint of such a strange and unlook'd for accident , ( for this furious action happen'd in the dead of night ) took up arms ; and getting these people ( lost to all shame and modesty ) up to the palace , ●●apt them into prison . being so disposed of , they would owne no thoughts of shame or chastity , but would justifie their most white and naked truth . in the mean time the fire being smelt , they broke into the house where it was , and wondring at their casting off their cloathes into the fire , which had since reached the bed , they made a shift to quench it . but the other distracted and mad people , such as deserved to be sent to their kindred , the savages and heathens , inconvincibly persisted in their pestiferous opinion , and so upon the fifth of may the same year , they expiated their wicked impieties by their death . ones farewell saying , was , praise the lord incessantly ! anothers was , o god revenge thou these our sufferings ! others cried out , woe , woe , shut thine eyes ! david geore . hereti●● plures visi hic , cui visus ego , illi pluribus in visusque haeresiarcha fui . the contents . david george , the miracle of the anabaptists . at basill he pretends to have been banished his countrey for the gospels sake ; with his specious pretenses he gaines the freedome of the city for him and his . his character . his riches . he with his sect enact three things . his sonne in law , doubting his new riligion , is by him questioned ; and upon his answer excommunicated . his wifes death . he had formerly voted himself immortall , yet aug. 2. 1556. he died &c. his death troubled his disciples . his doctrine questioned by the magistrates , eleven of the sectaries secured . xi . articles extracted out of the writings of david george . some of the imprisoned sectaries acknowledged david george to have been the cause of the tumults in the lower parts of germany , but dis-owned his doctrine . conditions whereupon the imprisoned are set at liberty . the senate vote the doctrine of d. g. impious , and declare him unworthy of christian burial , and that his body and books should be burned , which was accordingly affected . david george , a man born at delph in holland , the miracle of the anabaptisticall religion , having lived in the lower provinces forty years , did in the year one thousand five hundred forty and four , with some of his kindred and companions , in the beginning of aprill , begin his journey for basill , in the state and condition of which place , he had before very diligently enquired . whereof having sufficiently informed himself , he pretended that he had been driven out of his countrey for the gospels sake , and that he had been hitherto tost both on the land and sea of the miseries of this world ; and therefore he humbly intreated , that now at length he might be received into some place of rest . some being by the representation of his misfortunes and his teares , melted into compassion towards him , he presum'd to intreat the magistrate , that in tendernesse to christ and his holy gospel , he might be made capable of the priviledges of the city , which if it were granted , he bid them be confident of gods most particular protection towards their city , and that for the preservation of it , he engaged for him and his , that they should be ready to lay down their lives . the magistrates being moved with these just remonstrances and desires received the viper as a citizen , gave him the right hand of welcome and fellowship , and made him and his free of the city . what should the magistrate do ? behold , he hath to do with a man of a grave countenance , free in his behaviour , having a very long beard and that yellowish , sky-coloured and sparkling eyes , milde and affable in the midst of his gravity , neat in his apparel ; finally one that seemed to have in him all the ingredients of honesty , modesty and truth ; to be short , one , if you examine his countenance , carriage , discourse , and the cause he is embarqu'd in , all things without him are within the limits of mediocrity and modesty ; if you look within him , he is nothing but deceit , fraud , and dissimulation ; in a word , an ingenuous anabaptist . having already felt the pulses of the senate and divers of the citizens , comming with his whole family to basill , he and his are entertained by a certain citizen . having nested a while in basill , he purchased certain houses in the city , as also a farm in the countrey and some other things thereto appertenant , married his children , and by his good offices procured to himself many friends . for , as long as he remained at basill , he so much studied religion , was so great an alms-giver , and gave himself so much to other exercises of devotion , that suspicion it self had not what to say against him . by these cunning insinuations ( this is beyond a young fox , and smells more of the lybian wilde beast ) many being surprised , came easily over to his party , so that he arrived to that esteem and reputation in matters of religion , he pleased himself . this perswasion thus craftily gotten , was heightened by his great wealth ( and his riches in jewels , whereof he brought some with him , some were daily brought from other places in the low-countries ) & was yet further encreased , by his sumptuous and rich plate and houshold-stuffe , which though they were gorgeous and majestical , yet were they not made to look beyond sobriety , cleanlinesse and mediocrity . these people sojourning thus in common houses , desiring as yet to suppresse the pernicious infection of their sect , very religiously enacted three things : first , that no man should profane or speak idly of the name of david george . secondly , that no man should rashly or unadvisedly divulge any thing concerning his country , or manner of life ; whence it was that some thought him to be a person of some quality ; some , that he was some very rich factor or merchant , whence it came that he was so excessively rich ; others had other imaginary opinions and conceits of him , for as much as they themselves being strangers , lived in a country where they could not be ascertained of any thing : thirdly , he was very cautious that none of the basileans should be carelesly admitted into his acquaintance , society or correspondence , imitating therein the policie of the ferrets and weesels , which ( as is reported ) never assault any bird of supremacy , in the places where they frequent . and thus did he by letters , writings and emissaries , plant and water the venemous seed of his sect through the lower provinces , yet kept the waies by which he wrought unsuspected and undiscovered . for , although he had lived two years among them , there was not so much as one man infected ; or had privately caught the itch of his religion . what transcendent mysteries are these ! this man , though he feared neither deceit nor treachery from strangers , yet the fire kindled out of the deceitful embers of his own houshold . for , behold ; one of his own retinue doubting of the certainty of the new religion , he caused him to be brought before him , and asked him whether he did not acknowledge him to be the true david sent from heaven upon earth , and to bee the horn , redeemer , and builder up of the tabernacle of israel ? to which the other answered roundly and peremptorily , that the restauration of the kingdome of israel and other things foretold by the prophets were fulfilled in christ , the true messias , and that consequently there was no other to be exspected . which he hearing , not without great astonishment , did with much commotion of mind and bitter menaces thrust him , though his son in law , out of doors , and [ which is heavie to think on ] excommunicated him . these things being thus managed , david's wife fell sick of a disease ( which afterwards visited him and many more ) that dispatch'd her into the other world . what a miracle is this ! he that declared himself to be greater than christ , and voted himself immortal ( upon the second of august , one thousand five hundred fifty and six ) did die the death , and was honourably buried according to the ceremonies of the parish church , and his funerals were celebrated in the sight of his sonnes and daughters , sonnes in law and daughters in law , servant-men and maides , and a great conflux of citizens . this sad calamity of his death extreamely troubled and tormented the minds of his diciples , as a thing that very much thwarted their hopes of his promised immortality , although he had foretold that he would rise again in three yeares , and would bring all those things to passe which he had promised while he was alive . upon the death of this man , a great many with resolute mindes made it their businesse not onely to bring his doctrine into suspicion , but into utter disesteem , unanimously resolving to embrace whatever was good , sound , and consonant to christian doctrine , and reject the rest as hereticall . in the mean time , the report beat up and downe , both among the people , and the more learned , that this man of ingenuity , and authour of private doctrines , this very david george , was a contagion and a destructive pestilence , a devoted incendiary of a most dangerous sect , that ( though most falsely ) hee was born a king , and that hee accounted himself the true messias . the magistrate being extreamely moved at these things , not deferring his zeale any longer when the glory of god and his sonne jesus christ was so much concerned , caused all those who were conceived to be infected with the pestilence of that religion to be brought to the palace , to whom hee rubbed over what things had been transacted some yeares before ; that is to say , acquainted them , how that they had been banished their countrey upon the account of the gospell , and upon their humble addresses received into the protection , and made capable of the privileges of the city , &c. but that it had appeared since , that they had fled for refuge to basill , not for the propagation of the gospel , but for that of the leaven of the sacrilegious david , though by all outward appearance , they had hitherto been accounted favourers and professors of the true religion in the first place therefore the senate being desirous to know the truth , required to have his true proper name ; for , some have thought ( as some authours deliver ) , that his name was john burges . secondly , whether hee had privately or publickly dispersed his religion , and what tenets hee held . to which some made answer unanimously , that they had left their countrey for the true religions sake , nor did they acknowledge themselves any other than the professors and practisers of the lawfull religion . that for his name , hee had not called himself by any other than his own proper name ; and for his doctrine , they had acknowledged none either privately or publickly , save what hee had privately sometimes suggested , which was not disconsonant to the publick . the magistrate perceiving this obstinacy of mind caused eleven of them , the better to discover the reall truth , to bee secured , and more narrowly looked to . in the mean time , the senate leaving no stone unmoved in this businesse , appointed some to bring forth into publick view some books and writings of david , which should give no small light in the businesse , and these the magistrate recommended to men of the greatest learning to bee read over and examined with the greatest care possible , that so whatsoever they should meet with repugnant to the truth , they should extract , and give him an account thereof . those who had this charge put upon them , presented the senate with this extract of articles out of his writings . 1. that all the doctrine delivered by moses , the prophets , or by jesus christ himself and his apostles , was not sufficient to salvation , but dress'd up and set forth for young men , and children , to keep them within decency and duty ; but that the doctrine of david george was perfect , entire , and most sufficient for the o●taining of salvation . 2. he affirmed that he was christ and the messias , the well-beloved son of the father in whom he was well pleased , not born of blood , nor of the flesh , nor of the lust of man , but of the holy ghost and the spirit of christ , who vanishing hence long since according to the flesh , and deposited hitherto in some place unknown to the saints ; was now at length reinsused from heaven into david george . 3. hee held that hee onely was to bee worshipped , as who should bring out the house of israel , and the true ( that is , the professors of his doctrine ) tribe of levi , and the tabernacle of the lord , not through miseries , sufferings , crosses , as the messias of the jews did , but with all meekness , love , and mercy in the spirit of christ granted unto him from the father which is in heaven . 4. hee approved himself to be invosted with the authority of saving , or condemning , binding , and loosing , and that at the last day he should judge the twelve tribes of israel . 5. hee further maintained , that jesus christ was sent from the father to take flesh upon him ; for this reason at least , that by his doctrine and the use of his sacraments , men , being as it were no better then children , and uncapable of receiving the true doctrine , might be kept within duty till the coming of david george , who should advance a doctrine that should bee most perfect and most effectuall , should smooth out mankind , and should consummate the knowledge of god and of his son , and what ever hath been said of him . 6. but hee further affirmed , that these things should not come to pass according to humane ceremonies , but after a spirituall dispensation , and after such a manner as had not 〈◊〉 ●eard of , which yet none should be able to discern or comprehend , but such as were worthy disciples of david george . 7. to make good and prove all th●se things , he wrested and mis-interpreted many places of the holy scripture , as if christ and the apostles , whom he commends , had intimated not themselves , nor any other ecclesiasticall times , save only the coming of david george . 8. and thence it was that hee argued thus : if the doctrine of christ and his apostles bee most true and most effectuall for the obtaining of salvation ; the church which they had by their doctrine built up and confirmed , ●ould not possibly have been broken to pieces , for ( as christ himself testisieth ) against the true church , the gates of hell shall not be able to prevaile : but that building of christ and his apostles is overturned and pulled down to the very foundation by antichrist , as may be evidently seen in the papacy , according to the testimony of the same christ ; it therefore necessarily followes , that the doctrine of the apostles is imperfect and interrupted : whence he concluded his own doctrine and saith to be the onely solid and sufficient doctrine . 9. moreover he maintained himself to be greater than john baptist , yea then all the saints that had gone before him , for that the least in the kingdome of god ( according to the suffrage of truth it self ) is greater than john . but he said david george was one whose kingdome was heavenly and most perfect ; whence he makes himself not only greater than john , but also sets himself above christ , since that he was born of fl●sh , and that himself was born of the spirit according to a heavenly manner . 10. he further allowed with christ , that all sinnes committed against god the father , and against the son may be forgiven , but those that are committed against the holy ghost , that is to say against david george , shall be forgiven neither in this world , nor in the world to come ; by which meanes it is apparant that he conceiv'd himself greater and higher than christ , admitting christs own testimony . 11. he declared polygamy to be free and lawfull for all , even for those that are regenerated by the spirit of david george . these hends [ without any brains ] did the magistrate deliver to be carried to some that were in the prison , to fish out what confession they would make , who besides these , being provoked and challenged by a number of questions , answered at last , that this ( davus ) i would say david george , was the same who had embroyled the lower parts of germany with so many tumults & sedition , but as that to that doctrine and the fore-recited articles , they unanimously affirmed that they had never heard nor read of any such things . neverthelesse they were to acknowledge the doctrine expressed in those articles , to be pestiferous , execrable , and derived not from heaven , but from hell , and that it was heretical , and to be banished with an eternal anathe●a ; and withall , as men miserably seduced , yet desiring for the time to come , to be reduced into the right way , they were , with good reason , to implore forgiveness . among those that were in close prison , there was one formerly of david's greatest confidents , who confessed , that indeed he had been infected with that religion , but that since by the illumination of the grace of god , he discovered and detested the errors springing from it , and avoided them as he would do a cockatrice . but there were others who were civilly acquainted with this man , who denied that they had known any such thing by him , and cried out against the fore-mentioned articles as impious and blasphemous . these passages , the judges appointed by the magistrate , gave him an account of , who perceiving that some that were in custody were not so extravagant , but that they had some remainders of discretion left , he sent to them some learned and able preachers of the word , who , having diligently weeded out the tares of their errors , should sow into their hearts the saving seed of true faith . those who were sent , ●i●ting them with all the humanity , mildnesse , meeknesse and charity possible , could scrue nothing out of them , more than what the judges who had been emploied before , had done . in the mean time a report was spread about the city , that it was not david george , not any eminent person of any other name that had been buried , but that a meer swine , calf , hee-goat ( haply an asse ) had been carried out and buried , and that the dead carkasse embalmed with the strongest spices , was worshipped and adored with great devotion and religion . but this was but a report , and was not true . those that were in custody abhorring that doctrine , as unheard of , and such as deserved to be anathematized , and desiring to renew their acquaintance with discretion and their sences , are delivered out of those habitations of iron which they had kept possession of for two months , upon these conditions , that none should make any purchases either within or near the city , without the knowledge and consent of the magistrate : that they shall not entertain any coming out of the lower provinces , though of their kindred , but at publick houses or inns. that the printed books and writings that were translated into the dutch language , shall be brought into the palace . that there should be nothing published that were disconsonant to christian doctrine . that children should be educated according to incorrupt manners . that they should not make such promiscuous marriages among themselvs as they did . that they should take no dutch into their families . that they should submit to amercements and pecuniary mulcts [ if any were inflicted on them ] as citizens ought to do . that upon a day assigned , they should in the parish church , in the presence of the whole congregation , make a publick abjuration of the said religion , and condemn and anathematize the whole sect of it . that they should hold no friendship or correspondence with any that shall persist in that religion . to these conditions did they promise to subscribe , with all the reverence and gratitude they could possibly expresse . these things being thus managed , the most renowned senate , returning afresh to the business of the arch heretick , passed these votes . viz. that the doctrine of david george , upon mature examination thereof , was found impious and derogatory to the divine majestie ; that the printed books , and whatsoever may have seen the light , should have the second light of the fire ; that he as the most infamous promoter of that execrable sect , and a most horrid blasphemer against god and christ , should not be accounted worthy christian burial . that he should be taken up out of his grave by the common hangman , and together with his books and all his writings , and his manuscripts should , according to the ecclefiastical canons , be burnt in a solemn place . according to the said judgment , the carkasse being digged up , was , with all his writings , whereof the greatest part was that ( truly ) miraculous book , together with his effigies brought by the hangman to the place of execution , where having opened the dire●ul coffin , he being found not much disfigured , nay so little , that hee was known by diverse ( hee being covered with a watered garment , having about him a most white sheet , a very clean pillow under his he●d , his yellowish beard rendring him yet graceful ; to be short , having a silk cap on , under which was a piece of red cloth , and adorned with a garland of rosemary ) was set up publickly to be seen , and in the third year after his death , was with his writings consecrated to vulcan , that is to say , burned . michael servetus . omnia quum portenta voces hominemque deumque infandi serves nominis opprobium ! the contents . servetus his converse with mahumetans and jewes . he disguiseth his monstrous opinions with the name of christian reformation . the place of his birth . at the 24 year of his age , he boasted himself the onely teacher and seer of the world . he in●eighed against the deity of christ . oecolampadius confutes his blasphemies , and causeth him to be thrust out of the church of basil . servetus held but one person in the godhead to be worshipped , &c. he held the holy ghost to be nature . his horrid blasphemy . he would reconcile the turkish alcoran to . christian religion . he declares himself prince of the anabaptists . at geneva , calvin faithfully reproves servetus , but he continues obstinate . anno 1553 , by the decrees of several senates , he was burned . michael servetus , like another simon magus , having conversed long among the mahumetans and the jewes , and being excellently well furnished with their imaginous opinions , begat both out of divinity ; and the general treasury of christian religion , a monstrous issue of opinions , with the coition of what he had received from the extravagant mahumelans , and thalmudists , upon which b●at this instrument of satan , must needs bestow the disguised name of christian reformation . from this cocks egge were bred these cockatrices , gonesus , gribaldus , blandratta , gentilis , alciatus , simanus , casanovius , menno , and diverse other anabaptistical vipers , who extreamly increased the restless waves of sects and opinions . we , recommending the rest to their proper place , hell , will take a more particular survey of one religion , and by the horridnesse of that guesse at the others . this servetus was a spaniard , born in the kingdom of arragon , most unworthy both of his name and nation . being wrapt into a most incredible enthusiasme , he boldly lays his unwash'd hands upon holy divinity ; and at the four and twentieth year of his age , boasted himself to be the onely teacher and seer of the world , making it his main design , and that by his impious and worthlesse writings , to inveigh against the deity of the son of god ; with which writings being sufficiently furnished , and withall enflamed with hopes of raising no ordinary tumults , hee bestirrs himself winde and tide for basil ; but occolampadius , an ecclesiastical doctor , learnedly ▪ before a full senate confuted the blasphemies of this man , and by the publick authority he had , caused him as a poisonous blasphemer to be thrust out of the church of basil . from thence he went to venice , where , in regard the venetians had been timely forewarned of him by the wise and learned melancthon , he made no harvest of his incredible blasphemies , nor indeed was he permitted seed-time for them . religion is no where safe ! but having consulted with the arch-hereticks his predecessors , and being bird-lim'd , he held that there was but one person in the god-head to be worshipped and acknowledged , which was revealed to mankind sometimes under one notion , sometimes under another , and that it was thus , that those notions of father , son , and holy ghost , were to be understood in the scriptures . nay , with the same line of his blasphemous mouth , he affirmed that our saviour jesus christ according to his humane nature , was not the sonne of god ; nor coeternall with the father . the holy ghost he granted to be nothing but that influence by which all things are moved , which is called nature . he most impiously ironicall , affirmed that to understand the word person , we must referre our selves to comedies . but the most horrid blasphemy of all , was , when by the suggestion of satan , he imagined , that the most glorious and ever to be worshipped and adored trinity ( who doth not tremble at it ? ) was most fitly compared to cerberus the porter of hell-gate . but he stayed not here ; no , he thought it should be accounted nothing but a diabolicall phantasme , the laughing-stock of satan , and the monsterous ●eryon , whom the poets by some strange mystery of philosophy feigned to have three bodies . o incredible , and unheard of subtilty of blasphemy ! the most glorious name of the most blessed trinity is grown so odious to this man , that he would personate ( being the greatest that ever was ) all the atheists that have quarrelled with that name . moreover he maintained , that taking but away the onely article of the trinity , the turkish alcoran might be easily reconciled to the christian religion ; and that by the joyning together of these two , a great impediment would be removed ; yea , that the pertinacious asserting of that article had enraged to madnesse whole countries and provinces . this abomination of god and men ▪ held that the prophet moses , that great servant of god , and faithfull ●…ard of the lords house , that prince and captain generall of the people of israel , one so much in favour with god that he was admitted to speak to him face to face , was to be accounted no other than an imposter . he accounted the patriarch abraham and his seed , too much given to revenge , and that he was most unjust and most malicious to his enemy . the most glorious church of israel , ( 't is the swine that loves the mire ) he esteemed no better than a hogge-sty ; and declared himself a sworn prince of the anabaptistical generation . but , keep o●● , and approach not , o all ye other heresies and hydra's of opinions of this one man , furies not capable of expiation ! being arrived at geneva , and being forbidden to spue out and spatter his pestiferous blasphemies , he continued in hostility against all sharp , but wholesome admonitions : which calvin , that famous minister of the church perceiving , being desirous to discharge the duty of a soul saving pastor , went friendly to servetus , in hopes to deliver him out of his most impious errors and horrible heresie , and so to redeem him out of the jawes of hell , and faithfully reproved him . but he being dazzled with the brightnesse of truth , and overcome , returned nothing to calvin ( so well deserving of him ) but an intolerable obstinacie , and inconvincible recapitulation of his blasphemies , whence it came to passe , that by the just and prudent decree of the senates of bernen , zuring , basil , and scasfuse , and by the righteous condemnation of the eternal god , in the moneth of december in the year one thousand five hundred fifty and three , ( or as sleidan hath it , in october ) he was ( how great is the obstinacy of blasphemy ! ) being at that time ecstarically hardened and intoxicated , consecrated to the avenging flames . arrius . divisit trini qui form●●●uminis ecce ! dividitur membris , visceribusque suis the contents . arrianisme its increase , an●● 323. the general council at nice , anno 325. called as a remedy against it , but without successe . the arrians mis-interpret that place , john 10. 30. concerning the father and the son . they acknowledged one onely god in a jud●icall sense . they deny the trinity arrius his wretched death , anno 336. about the year of the incarnation of the son of god , three hundred twenty and three , hell was deliver'd of a certain priest at alexandria named arrius , a man subtle beyond expression , the trumpet of eloquence , one that seemed to have been cut out for all honesty and elegance , who yet , with the poison of his herefie , and the 〈◊〉 cups of his distructive doctrine , did in the time of silvester bishop of rome , and the emperour constantine , draw in a manner all christendome to his opinion , and so corrupted some , even great nations in the east , that except a few bishops who stood to the true doctrine , none appeared against him . to remedy this disease , at nice in bithynia , in the year three hundred twenty and five , a generall councill was called ; but to no purpose ; for the contagious stocks of arrianisme were deeply rooted , so that they were become such ravening wolves among the flock of christ , that all that would not embrace their beliefe , were to expect banishment or death . these imagined that the sonne was not of an equall nature and coeternall with the father , but that he was onely agreeing and concurring with his father ; to confirm which , they alledged that place of john 10. 30. which sayes , i and the father are one ; and though they called the sonne a great god , yet they denied , that he was a living and true god , and co-essential with the father . they boasted that they were ready to answer all objections , and acknowledged one onely god , in a judaical sense . to that , i and the father are one , they were used to retort thus , doth the unity in this place denote co-essencie ? it most therefore follow , that it is as much , where the apostle sayes , 1 cor. 3. 8. he that planteth and he that watereth , are one . they accounted the word trinity a laughing-stock and a fiction ; that the sonne of god was a creature , and that the holy ghost , was both born of christ , and conceived and begotten of the virgin mary . all that were baptized in the name of the blessed trinity , they baptized again . they denied that christ was the sonne of god according to the spirit and the godhead ; they denied god his own son . while arrius was disburthening himself of the necessities of nature , his bowels came forth , and with them his life . and so he who was the successor of those arch-hereticks , artemon ( who lived about the year of our lord two hundred ) and paulus samosatenus ( who lived about two hundred forty one ) came to a miserable death , in the year three hundred thirty six . see athanasius , epiphanius , hilarius , hierom , augustine , ambrose , basill , theoderet , eusebius , socrates , nicephorus , sozomen , and other ecclesiasticall writers , who have treated of these things more at large . mamomet . adsum ingens mahometes ●go , lachrymabile mundi prodigium , omnigeni dux , et origo mali . the contents . mamomet characterized . he made a laughing-stock of the trinity . he agreed with carpocrates , and other hereticks . he renewed circumcision , and to indulge his disciples , he allowed them polygamy , &c. his iron tombe at mecca . in the year six hundred twenty two , honorius the fift being bishop of rome , and heraclius caesar emperour of the east , a transcendent arch-heretick called mahomet , exchanged hell for earth ; a prephet , by nation an arabian , but most deprav'd and corrupt . he had sometimes been a merchant extremely rich , and withall very subtle ; to be short , he was a serious professor of diabolical arts , a most ungodly instrument of satan , the viceroy of antichrist , or his sworne fore-runner . this man endeavoured to exoll his brother arrius , with such praises as are correspondent to his heaven . he also with sabellio renewed the laughing-stock of the trinity . he with arrius and eunomius , most fervently and contumeliously held that christ , was onely a man , and that he was onely called god , secundum dici , that is to say , according to a certain manner of speaking . he agrees with carpocrates who denied that christ was a god and a prophet . this is also he that shakes hands with cerdonus who utterly abjur'd the godhead of the sonne , or that he was co-substantial with father . he imagined with the manichees , that it was not christ , but some other that was sastened to the crosse . with the donatists , he contemned the purest sacraments of the church . with the most impure origen he affirmes that the devils shall be eternally saved according to an humane , yet an invisible manner . he with cerinthus placed eternal felicity in the lust of the flesh . circumcision , that was long since abolished and antiquated , he renewed . upon his dicisiples he bestowed the priviledges , of polygamy , concu●ines and divorce , as moses had done ; and with such dreames and an imaginary phrenly was the miserable wretch ever troubled . this man when he dyed was put into an iron tombe at mecca , which by the strength of l●adstones , being as it were in the middle and centre of an arched edifice , hangs up to the astonishment of the beholders , by which means the miraculous sanctity of this prophet is greatly celebrated . all the dominions of the creat turk , professe this mans saith , whom they acquiesce in as a miracle . balthazar hubmor . ille ego qui vndarum mysteriasacra negavi igne cremor●fato disce cavere meo . the contents . hubmor a patron of anabaptisme . he damned usury . hee brought in a worship to the virgin mary , &c. the senate of suring by a council reduced him . he renounced the heads of his former doctrine . himself or sect still active . hee is taken and imprisoned at vienna in austria . he and his wise both burned . doctor balthazar hubmor of friburg , a man excellently well learned , another roscius in his affairs , a clergy man at ingolstade , was the third eminent patron of anabaptisme , and a sworn promoter of that worthy sect. this man in his sermons at regenburgh , inveighed so bitterly and so implacably against the usury of the jewes , that he banished it even to eternal damnation ; he brought in a certain religious worship to be done to the virgin mary , and some superstitious vowes , and was the cause of great tumults and insurrections , and had built up his doctrine upon very firm and solid foundations , until the most wise senate of suring applied the universal medicine of a council to these things , and assigned a day to reduce and root out that sect , which was the seventeenth of january , in the year one thousand five hundred twenty five , wherein the senate being present , and 〈◊〉 great presence of people , the most learned zwin●lius , and other sonns of learning , opposed this our doctor , by whom , and the strength of truth , after most ●ot and serious debating on both sides , he ingenuously consessed himself to be overcome . the heads of the doctrine , which he before defended , and whereof he afterwards made his abrenunciation , were these : that 〈◊〉 detested the cheat , and humane invention of ana●aptisme ; he affirmed that the spirit both before the fall and after was uncorrupt and unblameable , and that it never dies in sin ; whence it should follow , that not it , but the flesh , is deprived of liberty ; he also acknowledged that the spirit overcomes and triumphs over the flesh . though his recantation was made , and divers rebaptized into their better sences , yet the torrents of this sect neither stood still , nor were dried up , but increased in switzerland into a deluge , which overturned almost all . this man escaping the endeavours of spies , and shunning the halter , was at length taken with the figtree leaf of divine vengeance , and cast into prison at vienna in austria . being afterwards put much to the question , it being the designe of vengeance , the reveuging fire soon turned him to ashes . his wife being also baptized into the same whirle-pool of baptisme ; they both , with minds hardened to their own perswasions , were not disengaged of their faith , but with the departure of their lives . john hut . huttus ab hubmoro excrescit ; cervice resectâ sic vnâ in geminum pullulat hydra caput . the contents . john hut the prop and pillar of anabaptism● . his credulity in dreams and visions . he is accounted a true prophet by his proselytes . at merhem , his fraternity became as is were a monastery . in the times of the fore-mentioned balthazar rise up john hut , a learned man , the prop and pillar of anabaptisme , an eminent despiser of paedobaptisme , which kinde of baptisme he accounted the execrable fiction of the schoolmen ; whence it came , that he perswaded men , that if they were not baptized by him and his , they must necessarily incurre great danger to their souls . to which he added , that , those who were honoured with the prerogative of his baptisme , should be the restored people of israel , and that the wicked canaanites should be destroied by their swords , and that god himselfe should reveal from heaven the times wherein these things should be fulfilled . to visions and horrible dreams , ( which he thought proceeded to him from god ) he gave great credit , and he affirmed that he saw the preparations of the last day , and the angel going to blow the trumpet , by an indisputable revelation from gold upon the account of which dreams , his disciples as credulous as their master , spent and destroied all they had , fearing the difficulties of the times , wherein they should spend them ; all which being scatter'd and consum'd before the day came , they suffer'd a punishment , and inconveniences befitting their folly , having the lash of poverty perpetually at their backs . however they , a generation on whom the greatest quantity of black hellebore would not be much effectual , did still adore this miraculous piece of madnesse as a true prophet , even to admiration ; of which men , some not worthy the face or name of mankind , do at this day in great numbers live at merhern in palaces and covents upon their accidental contributions , and where they get their livelihood with their hands , and apply themselvs to any handy-craft , whereof they are the masters and governours , who by the commodities gained by them increase the common stock : they have at home with them their cooks , their scullions , their errand-boies , and their butlers , who have a care and dispose all things as they do in monasteries and hospitah ; they study to maint●in mu●●al peace and concord , being all equall . these even to this day are commonly known by the name of the hutsian fraternity . lodowick hetzer . polluit ut mentem sectis deformibus error , corpore sic hetzer foedus adulter erat . the contents . lodowick hetzer a famous heretick . he gains proselites in austria and switzerland . anno 1527. at a publick disputation oecolampadius puts hetzers emissaries to their shifts . hetzer denied christ to be co-essentiall with the father . his farewell to his dis●iples . he is put to death for adultery . lodowick hetzer , famous for his heresie and learning , was first very intimately acquainted with nicholas stork , and then with thomas muntzer , yet he agreed not with these in some things , as in that opinion of theirs of the overturning and destroying of all the powers of this world , which opinion he looking on as * malicious and barbaro●s , forsook them , and joining with john denk , they by their mutual endeavours , sent some prophets into germany . but di●●enting also from him in some things , he propagated his own sect in austria , and made many pros●lites at bern in switzerland . which gave oc●a●ion that the reve●end senate appointed a publick disputation at soning , and caused letters of safe conduct to be sent to hetzer and his followers , for which bickering was set apart the first day of february , in the year one thousand five hundred twenty seven , where he appeared not himself , but his emissa●ies came , who were by the most learned ( but withall stinging , ) oecolampadius driven unto their shifts , and enforced to acknowledge conviction . hetzer was a considerable part , and the firebrand of the anabaptistical sect , but he stiffely denied christ to be co-essential with the father , which the verses made by him upon the carrying of the cross , do more than hint . ipse ego qui propriâ cuncta baec vi●tute creabam quaeris quot simus ? frustra , ego solus eram . hîc n●n tres numero , verùm sum solus , at i●●i ha●d numero t●es sunt , nam qui ego , solus eram . n●scio per , onam , solus sum ●ivus ego , & sons , qui me nescit , eum nescio , solus ero . i who at first did make all things alone , am vainly ask'd my number ; as being one . these three did not the work , but onely i that in these three made this great syzygie . i know no person , i 'm the onely main , and , though they know me not , will one remain . he was excellent at three tongues , he undertook to translate the book of ecclesiasticus out of the hebrew into high-du●ch . plauterus hath testified for him in writing , that he very honestly and unblameably bid farewell to his disciples , and with most devout praiers commended himself to god , even to the astonishment of the beholders . he having been kept long in close prison , was on the fourth day of february , in the year one thousand five hundred twenty nine , sentenced to die : and thinking himself unworthy of the city , was led w●thout the walls , where he was put to death , not for sedition or baptisme ( as plauterus saies ) but for adultery , which act he endeavored to defend by some arguments fetcht from the holy scriptures . melchior hofman . pellibus a teneris suetus , doctissime , nôsti ho●manni teneras excoriare greges . the contents . hofman a skinner , and anabaptist , anno 1528 , seduced 300 men and women at embda in west-friesland . his ●ollowers accou●ted ●im a prophet . at strasburg , he challenged the ministe●s t● dis●ute , which was agreed upon jan. 11. 1532. where ●e●ng mildely dealt with , he is neverthelesse obstinat● ▪ other prophets and prophetesses d●luded him . he deluded himself , and volu●tarily pined himself to death . in the year one thousand five hundred twenty eight , melchior ho●man a skinner of strasburg , a most eloquent and most cra●ty man , at embda in west friezland , ensnared 300. men and women into his doctrine , where he conjured up anabaptisme out of hell upon pain of damnation , whereupon being ●eturned to the lower provinces , who ever addressed themselves to him , he entertained them with water , baptizing all promiscuously . this man upon the prophecy of a certain decrepid old man went to strasburg , it having been foretold him , that he should be cast into prison , and remain there six moneths , at which time being set at liberty , he should , with his fellow-labourers , disperse the harvest of the gospel through all the world , he was by his followers acknowledg'd and honour'd as a great prophet . this was the great prop and pillar of the re●gn of mu●ster . having therefore made what hast he could pos●ible to st●asburg in order to the fulfi●ling of the phophecy , he there challenges the ministers of the word to dispute , which offerture the senate engaged with , upon the eleventh of january one thousand five hundred thirty and two ; at which time , the mists and clouds of errours and blindnesse , were quite dispersed by the sunne of the gospel . however , ho●man stiffely adhered to the foresaid prophecy , as also to his own dreams and visions ; nor would he acknowledge himself overcome ; but , their mildnesse having somewhat appeased him , he was thence dismissed , as one judged w●rthy of such a place where lepers are shut up , lest others be infected . but 't is incredible how joyfull he was at that newes , out of an excessive thanksgiving to god , putting o●● ▪ his shoes , and casting his hat into the ayre , and calling the living god to witnesse , that he would live upon bread and water , before he would discover and brand the authour of that opinion . in the mean time some prophets began to rise and keep a stirre , hinting , that he should be secured for that half year , and that afterwards he should go abroad with one hundred forty and four thousand prophets , who should , without any resistance . * reduce and bring the whole world under the subjection of their doctrine ? there was also a certain prophetesse who should prophecy , that , this hosman was elias , that cornelius polterman was eno●● , and that strasburg was the new jerusalem , and she had also dreamed , that she had been in a great spacious hall , wherein were many brethren and sisters sitting together , whereinto a certain young man in ●…ing apparel should enter , having in his hand a golden boul of rich nectar , which he going about should taste to every one ; to whom having drunk it to the dregs , there was none pretended to compare with him , but onely polterman . alas poor melchior ! he having nothing , yet made master of a strong tower , did after the example of esdras , signifie by letters that his baptisme should , be put off for two years longer , until africk should bring forth another monster , that should carry hay in its horns . there were many other dreams , and some nocturnal pollutions , which they attributed to heaven , and thought such as should have been written in cedar . but it was melchior's pleasure to think it a miserably happy kind of death , o die voluntarily , by pining and consuming away with hunger , thirst , and cold . melchior rinck . discipulos sic rincke doce● baptisma negare , sanguine carnifices et scelerure manus ! the contents . melchior rinck , an anabaptist . he is accounted 〈◊〉 notable interpreter of dreains and visions . his ●isciple thomas scucker , in a waking dream cut off his brother leonard's head ; pretending for his mi●rther obedience to the decree of god . melchior rinck , a most wonderfull enthufiast , was also a most extraordinary promoter of anabaptisme , and among his followers celebrated the festivals of it , he made it his businesse to extoll anabaptisme above all others , with those commendations ( which certainly it wanted not ) besides he was accounted no ordinary promoter and interpreter of dreames and visions , which it was thought , he could not perform without the speciall indulgence of god the father ; nay , he arrived to that esteem among the chiefest of his opinion , and became so absolutely possessed of their minds , that his followers interpreted whatever was scattered abroad concerning dreames and visions , to have proceeded from heavenly inspirations from god the father . accordingly in switzerland ( to omit other particulars ) at sangall , even at a full council , his disciple thomas scucker , being rapt into an enthusiasme , ( his father and mother then present , and his brother leonard , having by his command , cast himself at his knees before him ) cals for a sword , whereupon the parents and divers others running to know what was the cause and meaning of such an extravagant action , he bid them not to be troubled at all , for that there should happen nothing but what should be according to the will of god ; of this waking dream did they all unanimously expect the interpretation . the foresaid thomas [ guilty alas of too much credulity ] did , in the presence of all those sleeping-waking spectators cut off his own brothers head , and having forgotten the use of water , baptized him with his own blood . but what followed ? the magistrate having sudden notice of it , and the offence being fresh and horrid , the malefactor is dragg'd to prison by head and shoulders , where he , having long considered his action with himself , professed he had therein obeyed the decrees of the divine power . these things , did the unfortunate yeare one thousand five hundred twenty and seven see . here men may perceive , in a most wicked and unjustifiable action , the eminent tracts of an implacable fury and madnesse ; which god of his infinite goodnesse and mercy avert from these times . adam pastor . nomine qui pastor tu impostor moribus audis , qui â recto teneras tramite ducis oues . the contents . adam pastor a derider of paedobaptisme . he revived the arrian heresie . his foolish interpretation of that place , gen. 2. 17. so often confuted . adam pastor , a man born at a village in westphalia , was one of those , who with the middle finger pointed at paedobaptisme ; that is to say , looked upon it with indignation , as a thing ridiculous , being of the same opinion in that businesse , as menno and theodorus philip , but as to the incarnation of god , hee was of a quite contrary judgment . for menno held , that christ was something more worthy and more divine then the seed of a woman , but ( our ) adam stood upon it , that he was lesse worthy then that of god , so that he rowsed up the arrian heresie , which had lain so long asleep , as having been but too famous in the year three hundred twenty five . for in a certain book of his , whose title was , of god's mercie , he writ thus , the most divine word , which is the main considerable in our business , is written in the second of gen. v. 17. the day that yee shall eat of the fruit , ye shall die the death ; this is that word , which is made flesh . joh. 1. yea that god which is uncapable of suffering and impassible , is made passible , and he that was immortal , is made mortal ; for he was crucisied , and died for our advantage . to be brief , he held , that christ was not to be accounted any thing but the hand , the finger , or the voice of god . but although the opinion or religion of this ( third , but most unfaithful ) pastor adam wander out of the limits of divinity , and that it seem to be an ancient heresie , containing nothing in it but what is childish , trifling , and meer foppery , & hath been confuted & brought to nothing by the most religious preachers of the word of god , notwithstanding the barking of the viperous progeny of arrius and servetus ; yet he hath this in particular , that he would have us look narrowly to his explication of the second of genesis , which he so commends , where he foolishly and vainly endeavours to prove that the prohibition there , is the word made flesh . this monster did not onely beget this sect , but nursed it ; here are baites , allurements , and all the poisonable charmes imaginable that may cunningly seduce the best and most innocent of men . but alas ! where is the free and indulgent promise of god of the seed of the woman , which cuts the very throat of the divell , and tyes him in the strictest chains ? where are his often promises to abraham ? to isaac ? to israel and to his old people , confirmed by a league so solemnly made ? in thy seed all the earth shall be blessed . and thou shalt be a blessing unto me . this seed , witnesse the apostle , is none other than christ himself , whom god without question meant . the desperate contagion of this man's religion did servetus and his adherents professe , embrace , and celebrate . henry nicholas . vestra domus nicholae cadat , quae exrudore versoe futile fundamen religionis habet . the contents . henry nicholas , father of the family of love . he is against infant-baptisme . his divelish logick . there was also ore henry nicholas the father of the family of love , ( as he called himself ) and not the meanest man of all his gang , one who by many means endeavoured to cripple the baptisme of children , as is too known and apparent out of his writings , which at a third hand , he with all freedom , earnestnesse and kindnesse , endeavored to communicate to david george and the other of his fellow-labourers , and his new jerusalem friends . this man in a pamphlet of his , wherein he notably described himself , and which he dedicated to an intimate friend of his under the name of l. w. maintaining that the * minute of the last trumpet was coming , that should unfold all the books of unquiet consciences , hell , and eternal judgement , which should be found to have been onely things grounded upon meer lies , and as all wicked and high misdeeds were hateful and detestable to god , so also were glorious and plausible lies no lesse odious to him . the same man endeavoured to perswade people , that he was a partaker of god , and the humanity of his son . he further affirmed , that at the last day god should bring all men , nay the divels themselvs into perfect happinesse . all the things that were said of divels , of hell or angels , and eternal judgment , and the pains of damnation ; he said , were onely told by the scripture to cause fear of civil punishments , and to establish right policy . finis . the conclusion . these few things we have brought to light , were not invented by us , but were extorted out of their own disciples , with abundance of discourse , not without the presence of many men of godlinesse and excellent understanding , * they admitting not the universal rule of the scriptures . but alas ! take these away , where is faith ? fear of god ? eternal happinesse ? but let us believe them , let us believe them , and we shall bee saved . oh! that to heresies i could say an alphabetical table to the revelation of hereticks . a. apious act. 48. adam pastor , a derider of paedobaptisme , 7● . &c. anabaptists their leading principle , 3. usually they grow worse and worse , ibid. their bold attempt , 14. &c. where masters most insolent , 10. of a levelling principle , 21. they , as the divel , pretend scripture for their base actions , 2● they aime at universal monarchy , ibid. their de●ign upon amsterdam , 24. they aim at the advancement of themselves , but destruction of others , 64 they would inforce others to their opinions ; yet : pretend liberty of conscience as to themselves . 70. arrius , his character , and wretched death , 55. &c. arrianisine , its increase . 56. b. john buckhold , or john of leyden , his actions and end . 1● . &c. c. calvin's reproof of servetus , 54 godly and loyal citizen● hate usurpation . 18 conventicles usually the nurseries of tumults . 13 d. the divel an enemy of peace . 9 e. a bad example soon followed . 18 f. famine the consummation of all misery . 25 its character , &c. 26 g. david george , an anabaptist , his character doctrine , actions , and death . 40 , &c. h. heresie a catching , or mad disease . 33 hereticks , their usual prerence , 2. the end that they propose to themselves in opposing the ministry and magistracy , 2. they are restless . 3. their cruelty , 19. they are inconstant in their opinions , 34. they allow not of the scriptures . 78 hermannus sutor , or herman the cobler , his blasphemies , opinions and end . 30. &c. lodowick hetzer , a famous heretick , 65 , &c. his end , 67. melchior hosman an anabaptist , 68. pined himself to death . 69 balthazar hubmor an anabaptist , 60 , &c. he and his wife burned , 62 john hut an anabaptist , 63 , &c. i john of leyden , vide buckhold . an item to the hotspurs of our times , 66 k. bernard knipperdoling , 16 l. the learned to be consulted with , in detection of sectaries and hereticks , 45 loyaltie not alwaies successeful 19 luther's advice to the senate concerning muntzer , 4 m. magistrates seduced , most ominous 5 a pattern for good magistrates . 44 mabomet characterized , 58 &c. his iron tomb , 59 john mathias a baker at harlem , his actions and end , 8 , &c. moneys & preferments , the usual baits of sedition , 25 thomas muntzer , his opinions , actions , and end . 1. &c. n. henry nicholas father of the family of love , he is against infant-baptisme , his blasphemy , and divellish logick , 77 , &c. oecolampadius puts hetzer's emissaries to their shifts . 66 p. an ill president soon followed , ● pretenders to religion , prove usually the disturbers thereof 9 r. a good resolution , 44 , 48 melchior rinck , an anabaptist , 71 , &c. his disciple thomas scucker cut off his or others head , 72 s. sectaries like ●inder , are soon on fire , 3. their usual pretence to raise sedition , ibid. sedi●ion goes not alwaies unpunished , 21 michael servetus an anabaptist , his blasphemous opinions and end , 51 , &c. success in bad enterprises causes evil men to rejoice 31 t. theodorus sartor , or theodor the botcher , an adamite , his blasphemy , actions , and end , 37 , &c. john tuysentschreuer , an abettor of john buckhold , 19 , &c. his seditious sermon , 21 v. vice corrects sin , 3● . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a57644e-3340 anno 1521 , 1522. hereticks their usual pretence . muntzer a quick scholar in a bad school . his doctrine spreads , his aim 's high . the end that hereticks propou●d to themselves , in opposing the ministry and magistracy . his affirmations des●●ullive . anabaptists their leading principle . seldome rest there , but grow worse and worse . sectaries like tinder , are soon on fire . anno 1523. 1524. an usual pretence to raise sedition . hereticks restlesse . luther adviseth the senate to beware of muntzer , and his opinions . muntzers large promises to his party , and the common people . magistrates seduced , most ominous . muntzer endeavours to set up himself , pretending to restore the kingdom of christ . an ill president soon followed . the landgrave raiseth a war , and fighteth muntzer and his party . muntzers delusive animation of his followers . their overthrow . muntzers escap● . is found out but dissembles himself . muntzer taken , yet obstinate . the langrave convinceth him by scripture . muntzer when racked , laugheth , but afterward relenteth . his last words . is deservedly beheaded . notes for div a57644e-4740 anno 1532. pretenders to religion , prove usually the disturbers thereof . the devill an enemy of peace . john mathias a baker at harlem . his lechery notorious . at amsterdam he professeth himself a doctor , and a preacher . a murtherous opinion . john mathias repairs to munster . his severe edicts he becomes a malicious executioner of hubert trutiling , for not siding with him . his desperate end . notes for div a57644e-5490 john buckhold his character . his disputing and contention with the ecclesiasticks concerning paedobaptisme . conventicles usually the nurseries of tumults . anno 1533. &c. anabaptists their bold attempt . notes for div a57644e-6060 anabaptists where masters , most insolent . john buckhold successor of john mathias . he comforts the people with a pretended revelation . he makes knipperdoling common executioner . about 4000. men lost at the siege , of munster . buckhold seigneth himself dumb . he assumes the magistracy . he allowes polygamy . he takes to himself ●pee wives . a bad example soon followed . godly ond loyal citizens hate usurpation . loyalty not always succes●… hereticks ; their cruelty . anno 1534. john tuysentschreuer an upstart , and abettor of john buckhold . john buckhold com●…s his delusi ●prophecies he is made king . he appoints officers under him his sumptuous apparell . his titles were king of justice , king of the new jerusalem . his throne . his coin and motto thereon . the king , queen , and courtiers waite on the people at a feast . a mock sacrament . a seditious sermon . sedition goes not alwayes unpunished . anabaptists of a levelling principle . anabaptists as the devill , pretend scripture for their base actions . they ●●m atuniversal monarchy . anno 1535. kingly botcher indeavours to raise commotions abroad . he is happily prevented . anabaptists , their design upon amsterdam . they break out in the night time . they are worsted . famine the consummation of all misery . the king suspects his own safety : his large promises to his captains , both of moneys and preferments , the usual bai●● of sedition . he becomes executioner to one of his wives he feigns himself sick , and deludes the people with an expectation of deliverance . famine , it's character , and miseries . he forgets community . john longstrat his consident betrays him by stratagem . the city of munster unmercifully plundered . the king is brought prisoner before the bishop . who ( deservedly ) checks him . his jesting answer and proposal . king of the anabaptists put to a non-plus . anno 15●6 . he is convinced of his offences . his deserved , and severe execution . notes for div a57644e-8670 successe in bad enterprises . causes evill men to oejoyce . herman●he cobler prosessed himself a prophet , &c. he is noted for drunkennesse . his design to invoigle others . the ceremonies he used in anabaptisme . eppo his host , discovered him and his followers to be cheats . * supposed to be a digger of graves . hermans wicked blasphemy . heresie , a catching , or mad disease : hereticks inconstant in their opinions . herman blasphemes again . his mothers teme●i●y . the proverb verified . vice corrects sin . hermans party are convinced , and fal off from him . one drewjis of his party handles him roughly . charles lord of gelderland ; &c. with his men surrounds the house where herman is . herman is taken & brought prisoner to groningen : he is questioned in his torments . he is hardened . he dieth miserably . notes for div a57644e-9720 anno 1535. theodorus sartor an adamite . he affirmes strange things his blasphemy in forgiving of sins . he burns his cloathes , &c. a●d causeto his companions to do the like . he and his rabble go naked through amsterdam in the dead of night , denouncing their woes , &c. and terrifie the people . they are taken and imprisoned by the burghers , but continue shamelesse . may the fifth 1535. they are put to death some of their last words . notes for div a57644e-10080 david george the miracle of the anabapitsts anno 1544. at basill he pretends to have been banished his countrey for the gospels sake . with his specious pretences he gains the freedome of the city for him and his . his character . his riches he , with his sect , enact three things . his son in law doubting his new religion , is by him questioned , and upon his answer excommunicated . his wifes death . he had formerly voted himself immortal , yet aug. 2. 1556. he died , &c. his death troubled his disciples a good resolution . a pattern for good migistrates . the senates enquiry . eleven of the sectaries secured . in such cases the learned to be consulted with . articles extracted out of the writings of david george . some of the imprisoned sectaries acknowledged david george to have been the cause of the tumults in the lower parts of germany , but disowned his doctrine . an ingenuous confession and resolution . a pious act . a lying report raised . conditions whereupon the imprisoned are set at liberty . the votes of the renowned senate . the doctrine of d. g. declared impious . he is declared unworthy of christian buriall . and that his body and books should be burned . a fit punishment for perverse hereticks notes for div a57644e-11560 servetus his converse with mahumetans and jews . he disguiseth his monstrous opinions , with the name of christian reformation . the place of his birth . his arrogant boast . he inveighs against the deity of christ . oecolampadius confutes his blasphemies , & causeth him to ●…e thrust out of the church of basil . servetus held but one person in the god-head to be worshipped , &c. he held the holy ghost to be naure . his horrid blasphemy . he would reconcile the alcoran to christian religion . he declares himself prince of the anabaptists . at geneva , calvin reproves servetus . serve●●● his obstinacy . anno 1553. by the decree of several senates he was burned . notes for div a57644e-12470 arrianisme , its increase . anno 323. the general council at nice . anno 325. called as a remedy against arrianisme , but without success . the arrians misinterpret that place , joh. 10. 30 concerning the father and the sonne . they acknowledged one only god in a judaicall sense . they deny the trinity . arrius his wretched death , anno 336. notes for div a57644e-13010 anno 622. mahomet characterized . he made a laughing-stock of the trinity : he agreed with carpocrates , and other hereticks . he renewed circumcision , and to indulge his disciples , he allowed them polygamy , &c. his iron tomb at mecca notes for div a57644e-13450 hubmor patron of anabaptisme . he damned usury . he brought in a worship to the virgin mary , &c. the senate of suring by a council reduced him . he renounced the heads of his former doctrine . himself , or sect , still active . he is taken and imprisoned at vienna in austria . he and his wife both burned . notes for div a57644e-13820 john hut the prop and pillar of anabaptisme anabaptists aime at the advancement of themselves , but destruction of others . hut his credulity in dreams . and visions . hut accounted a true prophet by his proselytes . at merhern the hutfian fraternity became as it were a monastery . notes for div a57644e-14070 lodowick hetzer a famous heretick . * an item to the hot-spurs of our times . he●zer gains proselytes in austria , and switzerland . anno 1527 , at a publick disp●tation , oecolampadius puts hetzers emissaries to their shi●ts . hetzer denied christ to be co-essential with the father . his farewel to his disciples . he is put to death for adultery . notes for div a57644e-14790 anno 1528. hofman a skinner , and anabaptist , seduced 300. men and women at embda in west-friesland . a delusive prophecy . his followers accounted him a great prophet . at strasburg he challenged the ministers to dispute , which was agreed upon , jan. 11. 1532. being mildely dealt with , he is ●●verthelesse obstinate . other prophe● 〈◊〉 delude hi● . * yet it 's like , to back their prophecies , they pretended liberty of conscience . a prophetess deludes him . he deluded himself . he voluntarily pined himself to death . notes for div a57644e-15290 melchior rinck , an anabaptist . he is accounted a notable interpreter of dreams and visions . his disciple thomas scucker , in a waking dream cut off his brother leonards head . he pretends ( for his murther ) obedience to the decree of god . anno 1527. notes for div a57644e-15520 adam pastor a derider of paedobaptisme . he revived the arrian heresie . his foolish interpretation of that place , gen. 2 17. his opinion hath been sufficiently resuted . notes for div a57644e-15910 henry nicholas father of the family of love . he is against infant-baptism * as to that minute ( if he confine not god ) we may believe him . his blasphemy . doubtless he hugg'd himself in this opinion . his divellish logick . notes for div a57644e-16180 * hereticks allow not of the scriptures . a censure upon the dialogue of the anabaptists intituled, a description of what god hath predestinated concerning man ... by henry ainsworth. ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622? 1623 approx. 195 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 35 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a12284 stc 226 estc s100100 99835952 99835952 187 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a12284) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 187) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1193:08) a censure upon the dialogue of the anabaptists intituled, a description of what god hath predestinated concerning man ... by henry ainsworth. ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622? [4], 64 p. printed [by the successors of giles thorp], [amsterdam] : in the yeare of our lord 1623. a reply to: murton, john. a discription of what god hath predestinated concerning man. printing information from stc. reproduction of the original in the henry e. huntington library and art gallery. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng murton, john. -discription of what god hath predestinated concerning man. a discription of what god hath predestinated concerning man. anabaptists -england -controversial literature. 2005-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-06 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-07 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2005-07 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a censvre upon a dialogve of the anabaptists ; intituled , 〈…〉 what god hath predestinated concerning man , &c. by henry ainsvvorth . rom . 9.11.15.16 . 11 ( for the children being not yet borne , neither having done any good or evill , that the purpose of god according to election might stand , not of workes , but of him that calleth . ) 15 for he saith to moses , i will haue mercy on whom i will haue mercie , and i will haue compassion on whom i wil haue compassion . 16 so then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth , but of god that sheweth mercy . printed in the yeare of our lord , 1623. to the reader . christian reader , howbeit the continued infirmitie of this authors body , wherwith it pleased god to exercise him , might iustly haue excused him from taking pen in hand to write , especially in businesses of this nature , his desire being as himselfe testified in his life time , to finish this last period of his life with more comfortable meditations then to follow controversies : yet did he labour to his power , yea and ( as i may say ) beyond his power , to enforce himselfe even in his decayed health , together with his other necessarie labours , to discover the fraud and falshood of the adversaries : amongst others he iudged these anabaptists not the least , which occasioned this ensuing censure ; another nearer inhabitant then the former author , was one mr. paget that lived in the same citie by him ▪ being a chiefe leader to another congregation there , who being of a quarrelsome disposition , and envious hearted towards mr. ainsworth , and the truth professed by him , having uniustly picked quarrels against him : afterward without his privitie while matters were in debating ( not imitating d. reynolds to hart although he highly commends him pag. 367. ) published a book against him , laying to his charge things which he knew not , even grosse vntruths , and palpable reproches , making divers false charges upon him , as if he neither shamed nor feared to be sathans instrument to blow abroad whatsoever envie and malice had scraped together , in likelihood expecting no other reward then gratifying the world , by the gospells disgrace in our subversion ; yea labouring through his sides to smite the text it selfe , which i trust m. ainsworth hath well cleared in that little advertisement published in his life time with those books of moses , besides a particular answer to his book he had well begun , and had finished long before his death had not his infirmitie of body hindered . but now time permits not to instance particulars , but leaving so unneighbourly , yea so unchristian an opposite to the lord for iudgement , i will add a word or two touching the occasion of this treatise ensuing , which was at the request of some , ( whose minds the anabaptists would cumber with their errours ) to shew his iudgment on the foresayd book . now as some were assaulted that yet would giue no way or entertainment to those errors , yet othersome that had stood in the truth a long time , were perverted . the knowledge of these things comming to this reverend and iudicious man , mr. henry ainsworth , hee soone drew out this answer , and sent it by a friend into england , to reclaime ( if god saw it good ) such as had erred herein , and gone astrray by rash and inconsiderate zeale beyond knowledge , and through the grace of god to preserue such from falling as yet stood : this he sent for the present , purposing if the lord continued some competent health and strength , to revise and so to make more perfect this which then shortnesse of time in respect of the messengers great haste , could not be affoorded , and so to make it publick in this spring ; but the lord having prevented this his purpose , by taking him to himselfe , hee now resteth from his labours . yet finding the matter may , through the blessing of god , be profitable to his people , it is thought fit not to keepe these his last labours in matters of this nature in silence , but that it come to the publick view for the good of them that are ordained to life . and so i wish thee to farewell in the lord. a censvre upon a dialogve of the anabaptists , intituled , a description of what god hath predestinated concerning man , &c. being requested by some , whose mindes the anabaptists would cumber with their errours , to shew my judgement on their foresaid book ; i haue set down these few observations . in the first part which they intitle of predestination , they commit a double fault , 1 they confirme not by holy writ their owne doctrine : for in the third page of their dialogue , they describe gods predestination out of their own head ; not one scripture brought to proue that they say : neither can they justifie by gods word that their description , wherein some things are erroneous , some ambiguous and sophisticall till they be cleared . 2 they abuse and calumniate the doctrine of those whom they call calvinists , and would father upon them absurdities , errours , blasphemies : taking advantage upon some harsh phrases , concluding against them worse things then either they spake or meant ; passing over the explanations to be seene in sundry of their workes , which will cleare them of the errours that these men would enforce upon them . the differences vvhich they make ( in page 4 ) between the calvinists doctrine and theirs , are fraudulent and iniurious . as betweene all things , and all good things : where first these anabaptists doe differ from the plaine scriptures , which testifie that all things were created by christ , col. 1 16 , and without him was not any thing made that was made , 1 ioh. 1 2. secondly , they cannot be ignorant but that we hold all things that were made to bee very good , gen. 1 31 , so this difference they forged out of their idle heads . the 2 & 3 differences , as that the calvinists should say , whatsoever is done ( murther or the like ) commeth from god ; and that god is the principall cause and author of all things , appointing all things to the one part and to the other , damnation as salvation , vice as vertue . but the anabaptists say , whatsoever good is done commeth from god , but no evill things that are done ; and that god is the principall cause and author of all good , and of salvation to all men ; but the devill is the author of all evill . in these differences they set down some errour , with calumnie and sophistrie . errour it is to say , god appoi●ted not damnation as salvation : wherein againe they proclaime themselues diff●rent from holy scripture . for damnation being a work of gods justice upon the reprobates , ( as salvation is a work of his grace towards his elect , ) comm●th from god , and is by him appointed ; as those scriptures plai●ly testifie , mat. 25 41 , iude v. 4 , 2 pet. 2 3 ● 9 , rom. 9 22. that any of us should say , murther and other l●ke vices come from god , and are appointed by him , is injurious sophistication . we hold not god to be the principall cause or author of any evill as it is sin ; but onely of evill as it is condigne punishment for sin , accord●ng to esa. 45 7 , amos 3 6. concerning murther , and other like actions , we distinguish between the action as it is naturall , and as it is morall . all actions as they are meerely naturall , are of god : for in him we liue , and moue , and haue our being , act 17 28 , without him no man can moue his hand to smite h●s neghbour . as they are morall , gods providence concerning them is twofold : for as they are vicious & sinfully done , god doth them not , but suffreth them so to be done : as they haue in them respect of justice and punishment , so god doth , appointeth , commandeth them to be done : as , the defiling of davids concubines , being considered in the sinfulnesse of it , proceeded from absaloms wicked lust , and a●hitophels wicked counsell , 2 sam. 16 21 22. thus god did it not , but suffered it to be done . but considering it as a punishment or chastisement for davids sin , the scripture telleth us , that god took davids wiues and gaue them to absalom , and god did this thing , 2 sam 12 11 12. the murdering of the israelites by the assy●●ans , of the i●wes by the babylonians , was a very si●full action done by these heathens ; and thus god suffred them to doe it : but as it was a just punishment for his peoples iniquitie , god sent those heathens against the hypocriticall nation , esa 10 ▪ 5 6. god caused the iewes to fall by the sword , he made ierusalem desolate , he hims●lfe fought against them with an outstretched hand , he deliver●d them into the hands of nebuchadrezar ; he prepared destroy●rs against th●m , he gaue them into the hand of those that sought their lif● : the babylonians w●re his servants , whom he sent and took , and brought against the land ; though those h●ath●ns for their iniquitie in doing this , were afterward punished , ier. 19 ▪ 7 8 , & 21 5 7 , and 22 7 25 , & 25 9 12. other examples ma●y are in the scriptures , how these actions which men did most sinfully , g●d did the same actions by those evill men ; most justly : either for judgment upon reprobats , or for chastisement & mercy unto his ch●sen . they inveigh against us , as teaching that god decreed that adam could not but sinne ; that god commanded him not to sin , and yet decreed that he should not sinne . answ. they proceed in wronging us . we teach not that god decreed sinne should be done , otherwise then by suffering it to be done . he never decreed either to doe sinne , or to command it to be done , or to approue it being done . neither did any decree of god force adam to sin ; he might haue haue avoided sinning if he had would : but he would not continue in obedience , he sinned willingly . further , they feigne us to say , that though god by his reveiled will commanded adam not to sin , yet in his secret will he decreed he sh●uld sin . answ. god neither openly nor secretly decreeth or willeth sin as sin : for he is not a god that hath pleasure in wickednes , psal. 5 4. they keep their wont therefore in calumniating us . also they erre , in refusing the distinction between gods revealed and his secret will , whereby we understand not two wils in god , but one and the same will , partly revealed , partly concealed from us and secret , according to deut. 29 29. by his reveiled will or commandement , god would haue abraham to kill his son , gen. 22 , by his secret will ( not th●n reveiled to abraham but afterward ) hee would not haue him killed . they goe on and would proue , that god did neither decree , nor lay any ne●essity on adam to transgresse . but they labour in the wind , and would proue that which we confesse , yet in their proofe lurketh errour ; for they affirme , that god left not adam unfurnished with any thing that ●ight support him in that estate in which he created him . for th●s th●y bring no word of god , but broach their own fansi●s . a●am was unfurnished of gods gracious help to support him when h● vvas tempted : for want of it , he willingly yeelded unto sa●an : by it , he might and would haue resisted all tentations ; even as the elect angels having this grace , are supported so as they shall never fall . adam in deed was so furnished of god , that no power or frawd of satan could haue vanquished him , unl●sse he himselfe would voluntary yeeld : which he did , and therefore had no excuse for his sinne . but god ( if he had pleased ) could so haue confirmed his will in good , could so haue supported him with grace in tentation , that his will should not at all haue declined to evill . this god did not , because so it pleased him ; and he was not bound to giue adam more grace , then that which he had bestowed on him : which was so great , that no power of devils could haue prevailed , if the man had not willingly fallen . they proceed to manifest two things : first , of adams state , viz. that god could not make him otherwise then be made him , that is mutable , able to obey his precepts : but not unchangeably good . ans. not to reason of things too high for us , how god could haue made man : i grant that men and angels , and all cr●atures are changeable : and that adam was able to obey all gods commandements , if he had would : but this proveth not that he was furnished with all things that might support him in that good estate : for he had not speciall grace from god to stablish his will in good ; which the lord could haue done , and then adam had not sinned . whereas they adde , god did not decree and force him to sinne ; vve say the same , and they sinfully wrong us to impute such blasphemy unto us . 2 the second thing they would manifest is ; that many things bee done against the will of god. answ. this as it is set down is false : for it was the vvill of god to suffer adam to fall , else he had not fallen : and god willingly suff●reth all the sinnes done under the sun ; for if he vvould not suff●r them , the creatures could not doe them . but understanding by gods vvill his commandement , or his approbation : so it is true , that too many things are done against gods will : and this they need not goe about to proue , for none ( i thinke ) denyeth it . but they scoffe at the distinction between the action , and the sin of the action , and call it meerely a fabulous riddle : and say , the subtilty of the riddle is this , that sin is nothing : whereupon they pleasantly inferre , that malefactors are punished for nothing . answ. had they not a better faculty in deriding then in disputing , they would not haue called it a fabulous riddle . i haue before proved that all actions of men as they are naturall , all motions inward or outward , are of god , act. 17 28. againe , i haue proved that the actions of assyria and babylon , were just and holy actions as god did them ; but wicked & sinfull as men performed them therfore the action and the sin of the action are rightly and needfully distinguished , seeing gods hand is in the one , but not in the other . that sin is no substantiall thing is plaine , seeing all things were made by god , ioh. 1 2 , but sinne he never made : it is a vicious quality infecting the good things which god made , and corrupting their actions . and thus though sin be not simply nothing , yet it is no substantial thing . their definition of sin , that it is a thought , word , or deed , contrary to the will of god ▪ is no perfect definition : for there is an hereditary sin from adam , which all haue , before they can either doe , or speak , or think : of which point we are to treat anon . their inference that they which hold god to be the author of the deed which is sinne , hold him to be the author of sinne , is denyed and before disproved . we know god was author of the deed of sending ioseph into aegypt : for he sent him ●hither , partly to try and humble ioseph , partly to provide for iakobs family , psal. 10● 17 19 , gen. 45 7 8 , yet was ●e not author of the sin committed in sending him , that was of the patriarchs , moved with envy , act. 7 9. they charge m. knox with wide wandring , and large bl●sphemy , for ascribing to the providence of god , wh●tsoever the ethnickes attributed to fortune : their reason is this , who knoweth not that unto fortune , the ethnicks ascribe all perverse and pestilent wickednesse . answ. herein they wander from the truth , and blaspheme it . gods providence extendeth further then to such things as he himselfe is author and doer of : it extendeth to all the most horrible sinnes in the world , which he willingly suffereth to be done , and provideth in vvhat manner and measure he vvill suffer them to be done , and by his vvisedome knoweth to bring good out of the vvorst and most sinfull deed . could adam haue been tempted to sin , if god had not given satan leaue to tempt ? could he haue fallen , if god had not left him to himselfe ? was not gods providence in absaloms horrible sinne vvhen he defiled his fathers vviues ; seeing god foretold it , and the manner of it , before all israel , and before the sun ? 2 sam. 12 11 12. gods providence suff●red shimeis sinne vvhen he cursed david : his providence kept abimilech from sinning in defiling sarah , gen. 20 3 6. to conclude , it is neere unto atheisme & epicurisme to deny gods providence in any the least thing or action be it good or evill . but these men inferre vvorse matter ; asking whether any thing may be spoken more repugnant to the nature of god , or contrary to his word &c. then to say that god punisheth man with hell torments , for doing those things which he himselfe hath predestinated , ordeyned , decreed , determined , appointed , willed and compelled him to doe , and that whi●h a man cannot choose , but must needs doe by the force and compulsion of his predestination . ans bold calumniators , vvhich vvoul make the vvorl● beleeue vve say such things as vve abhorre to thinke . in hovv many books might they haue seene these things denyed , and refuted . we teach that sinne is suffered of god , not done by him , nor decreed , vvilled , commanded , much lesse compelled . all that sinne ( vvhether men or divils ) sin voluntarily , of their ovvn vvill , for vvhich they might all in justice be damned . god tempteth no man to evill , much lesse forceth or compelleth any to evill , iam. 1 13. so they ansvver unto , and vvoul● refute their ovvne fictions . they affirme that vve say , whatsoever god foreseeth be willeth , and it cannot but come to passe : vvhereto they ansvver , that god foreseeth all things , good and evill , but he willeth onely good . and though hee fore knoweth ●ll things , yet all things come not to passeth ●efore of necessitie . answ. they still dally and deceiue by generall and ambiguous termes . if they understand by gods vvill , his p●rmissiue vvill , or vvilling sufferance : so vve say all things good or evill co●● to passe by his vvill . but if they meane gods effectiue or approving will , so vve hold that he vvilleth nothing but good . the second vve teach not , that all things therefore come to passe becaus● god foreknovveth them : his foreknovvledge imposeth no necessity on things . but vvithall vve teach , that vvhatsoever god foreknovveth shall be , that must needs be , else his knovvledge should not be certaine and infallible : but they come to passe by other causes then his bare for●knovvledge . these distinctions observed , their reasons deduced from scripture are soone taken avvay . they plead , that god foreseeth the death of ● sinner , and the cause therof , viz. his wickednesse ; but willeth it not , as ezech. 18 32 and 33 11. i will not the death of a sinner , but that he returne and liue . christ foresaw the destruction of ierusalem , yet he willed it not for he wept &c. mat. 23 37. answ. they doe not vvell to shuffle togeth●r , death , and vvickednesse the cause of it . wickednesse god vvilleth permissiuely , suffring it to be done : death he vvilleth ●ff●ctiuely , infl●cti●g it on obstinate sinners . secondly , they erre in d●nying absolutely that god vvilleth the death of a sinner , else hovv should god judge the vvorld ? to kill for sin is a vvorke of ●ustice , as to pardon sin is a vvork of mercy . god vvilleth his ovvne justice and vvork thereof . who but he createth the evill of punishment ? esay 45 7 , amos 3 6. who but he prepareth death and hell for sinners ? math. 25 41. and ●id he doe this against his vvil ? the scripture in plaine vvords saith of eli●s vvicked sons . they hearkened not &c. because th● lord would sl●y ●hem , 1 sam. 2 25. whereas therefore ezekiel saith , god w●●ld not sinners death , it cannot be meant absolutely or in all resp●ct● ( for then it should contradict the other scripture , ) but conditionally or comparatiuely : * if sinners repent he vvilleth not their death ; or hee vvilleth not their death so much as their repentance . but if the vvick●d turne not , then the ( prophet saith ) god whetteth his sword , bendeth his bow , and prepareth for him the instruments of death , psal. 7.12 13. so christ vvould not ierusalems destruction , if they vvould haue come to him : but because they vvould not , he vvould make it desolate , as vvas foretold , dan. 9.26 27. they vvould proue , that all things come not passe of necessity therefore ; to vvit , because of gods foreknovvledge . answ. they labour in vaine to proue that they need not . gods foreknowledge l●yeth no necessity that the thing must be done by force or compulsion . yea gods vvill alvvayes layeth no such necessity : seeing he vvilleth some things conditionally , vvhich are not eff●cted unlesse the condition be observed : as he vvould a sinners life , not death , conditionally if he returne to god. he vvould the destruction of niniveh ; but conditionally , except they repented . other things god willeth absolutely ; and those must needs come to passe : for none can resist or hinder his absolute will. esa. 46 10.11 . iob. 23 ▪ 13 ps●l . 33.10.11 . but forasmuch as god certainly foreknow●th all things that shall be , whether good or evill , in this resp●ct all things come to passe of necessitie , otherwise god in his forek●owledge might be deceived . but as necessitie meaneth viol●nce , force , compulsion : so all things are not of necessitie , but many are of the voluntary will of the creature . therefore these adve●saries deceiue their rea●ers in answering texts of scripture alledged : for sometime they fa●h●r untruths on us , and with ●ll s●metime spread their errors as when they say , in these actions ( namely shimeis cursing of david , and the like ) there were evils , namely cur●ing ▪ ●n●y ▪ pride ▪ decei● : now the controversie is ( say they ) who was the first cause ●f this cursing , ●nvy pride , deceit . answ. they would make controversie where none is . we beleeve that all sinne is originally from ●he creature , & none from th● creator . so when they would conclu●e from our doctrine , that god should be most to be blamed for forcing of necessitie by his decree , satan to tempt , and man to cons●nt and act it : they shew themselues to be calumniators : we doe not hol●●hat ever any creature was , is , or shall be forced of necessitie by gods decree , to consent unto , or to act any sin . and here let the prudent reader obserue , how thes● men themselues can distinguish when they are driven to it : for ( in pag. 24 , 25. ) they confesse g●d made them that are now divels , and continueth the life and being of men and divils : also ( in pag. 26. ) that these divils and men ( the instruments that act wickednesse ) are good , as th●y are from god , yet the actions ( th●y say ) of those instruments , the sinnes , cannot be good from god. the first is true , that divils and men were gods good creatures : th● second , ( that god continueth their life and being ) is also true , but imperf●ct : they should haue added their moving also : for so we are taught , that in him we liue , and moue , and haue our being , act. 17 28. why said they not that god continueth their moving also ▪ was it because th●y saw all our actions are motions , and th●r●fore in some respect a●● also of god ? but this they baulk for advantage to their errours . their third assertion is partly false , and partly fraudulent . fraud it is to confound actions and sinnes , as if they were all one , and admitted no distinction ( v●hich the a●aba●tists call a turning device . ) false it is that the actions of th●se instrum●nts cannot be good from god : for vvhatso●ver is from g●d , is good ; & all actions as they are meerely natura●l , are from g●d , in whom w● liue and moue ▪ again , all acti●ns wh●●h god ( eith●r f●r ●●yall , chastisement or punishment ) doth by ev●l●●●struments , they are morally good in respect of god : though as they are misdone , or sinfully done by divils and men , they are morally evill ; and thus god doth them not , but onely suffereth them to bee done amisse . now for gods sending the assyrians against israel , esa. 10 5 6 , his sending delusions upon reprobates , 2 thess. 2 11 , and the like : they say it was not otherwise then by suffering : and they would proue it by the divils words to christ , send us into the swine , mar. 5 12 , vvhich another evangelist setteth down thus , suffer us to goe &c. mat. 8 31. hereupon they inferre , that gods sending is nothing but suffering in this case . answ. they conclude more then the scripture teacheth : for though such sending be suffering , yet it followeth not that such sending is nothing but suffering : there is more in it then so ▪ for the punishing of israel by ashshur , esai . 10. was an act of iustice for their sinns : and so is the sending of delusion in 2. thess. 2. a work of justice : therefore a good worke . and if god did not doe these things , but onely suffered them : then the good workes of justice are done by wicked men and divils ; and the divils shall be good doers ; and god a sufferer onely of good to be done . the proofe they make shew of from comparing the evangelists , sheweth what strangers they are in the book of god. when sundry prophets or apostles repeat the same things , it is usually with some change and difference of words : not that the different words are equivalent , one meaning neither more nor l●sse then another , but of different meaning , and larger extent oftentimes , to teach further matter . that which one evangelist calleth fasting , mark 2.19 . another calleth mourning , math. 9.15 . yet are not these two one , though often joyned together . to drink with the drunken , math. 24.49 . is explained , to drink and to be drunken , luk. 12.45 . which two speeches are not alwayes the same ; for a man may drink with the drunken , and yet not be drunken himselfe . in 2. chron. 5.4 . the levites took up the ark : in 1. king. 8.3 . it is sayd , the priests took up the ark : this expoundeth the former ; for though all priests were levites , yet all levites were not priests . in 1. chron. 19.19 . the syrians would not help the ammonites : in 2. sam. 10.19 . it is sayd , they feared to help them . yet are not these words of equal force and extent : for some may bee unwilling to helpe though they be not afraid . the prophet sayth , rejoyce greatly o daughter of sion , zach. 9.9 . the apostle alledgeth it , feare not o daughter of sion , ioh. 12.15 . the prophet sayth , the gentiles shall seeke , esa. 11.10 . the apostle expoundeth it , the gentiles shall trust . rom. 15.12 . and many the like ; where to make one of the words no more in force then the other , were to do open violence to the scripture . and that all may see that sending is more then suffering , the very same historie which they alledge doth convince them , for the same divils at the same time desired christ that hee would not send them away out of the countrie , mark. 5 10. but in luk. 8.31 . it is said , they desired that he would not comm●nd them to goe out into the deep . if these mens reason be of weight , sending is no more then suffering : this reason hath asmuch weight , that sending is no lesse th●n commanding . now betwixt commanding and suffering themselues ( i suppose ) will confesse there is sometime a great difference . but why doth the one evangelist say send us , and an other , suffer us ? not to confound these two as one , but to teach us two things ; 1. that as it was the divils sinfull and malicious desire to hurt the creatures , & to procure envy against christ in this respect he suffered them : 2. but as it was christs just punishment on the covetous gadarens , and trial of them whether they loved their swine more then him and his gospel ; in these respects christ not onely suffered , but sent the divils into the swine ; and the divils were his servants to doe what he would haue done . the like is to be minded for gods sending the assyrians , and babylonians , with sword to kill ; and the divils with delusions to deceiue the reprobates ; and other the like , 1 king. 22 , 19 , 20 — 22.23 . this is further manifested by the example of christs death : touching which ( whatsoever the scripture saith ) these men doe deny that god determined , appointed or decreed , that the wicked should betray or murther him , otherwise then by suffering them . which if they spake in respect of the sinne onely , we would grant : but being meant of the actions done , it is against the expresse scriptures , which say the iewes tooke and crucified him , being delivered by the determinate counsell and foreknowledge of god , act. 2 23 , and that both gentiles and israelites were gathered together for to doe whatsoever gods hand and his counsell , predestinated ( or fore-determined ) to be done : act. 4 27.28 . now gods counsell and predestination that a thing should be done , is more then bare permission ; and his hand being in it , sheweth him to be an agent in this work . god out of his loue , sent and gaue his sonne for us , ioh. 3.16.17 , it pleased the lord to bruise him , and put him to griefe , esay 53.10 , and christ laid down his life of himselfe , no man took it from him , ioh. 10.18 , he powred out his soule unto death , esa. 53.12 , he offered up himselfe a sacrifice for our sinnes , through the externall spirit , heb. 7.27 , & 9 14. these and the like sayings in scripture , teach us more of god in christs death , then a bare suffering . gods good hand was in it for our redemption , and not onely the wicked hands of them that sinfully crucified him . whereas they tell us , christ might haue beene slaine without sin , for god might haue appointed some to sacrifice christ , as he did abraham to sacrifice isaak &c. they speake too presumptuously in gods matters . will they teach him an other or a better way to effect his owne purposes , then himselfe hath chosen ? but what would they infer upon it ? if god had decreed that christ should haue beene slaine by holy angels ; they would not then deny ( i suppose ) but god should be an agent in his sons death . now that god decreed he should be slaine by evill angels , and hands of wicked men ; and his decrees and counsels must stand , psal. 33.11 , his predictions must needs be fulfilled , act. 1.16 , is he not therfore an agent in christs death ? shall he be restrained from using any of his creatures to doe his good work , because they through their owne corruption and malice doe it ( and cannot but doe it ) amisse ? or shall their mis doing which is in them voluntarie , and not caused of god , be imputed to him ? let men speake and think of god with more sobriety : and though our dulnesse cannot comprehend how gods good hand can be in the evill actions of wicked men , & he not partaker of their sin : yet let us not deny that which god plainly teacheth , but rather lay our hand on our mouth , and confesse we haue uttered that we understood not , things too wonderfull for us which we knew not , iob. 40.4 , & 42 , 3. the last reason which they pretend to answer , is such as dazelleth the adversaries eyes . the scripture saith , the iewes could not beleeue , because ( the lord ) he blinded their eyes and hardned their heart , that they should not see , nor understand , and be converted and healed , ioh. 12.39.40 . also the lord saith , i will harden pharoahs hart : and be shall not bearken unto you , that i may lay my hand upon egypt , &c. exod. 7.3.4 . they answer , to the first , that by comparing esa. 6.9 . mat. 13.14 , &c. act. 28.26 , &c. it is manifest , that they winked with their eyes , lest they should see : for which cause god gaue them up to that reprobate sense . to the latter they answer , that pharaoh hardened his ( owne ) heart , exod. 9.34 , and god hardened his heart ( and so the hearts of the wicked ) by giving them up to satan ( who worketh hardnes of heart against god ) and to their owne hearts hardnes , and lusts , to vile affections , and to reprobate mindes , psal. 81.11.12 . rom. 1.24.26.28 . a●sw . that the iewes winked and would not see , that pharoah hardned his own heart and would not let israel goe , is true . that for these causes god gaue them up to their owne lusts , &c. and to satan is also true . thus farre we agree ; but to the force of our reason they answer nothing at all . for in these works of blinding and hardening , there is more then gods bare permission : they did it , and god it ; they sinfully , but god righteously , justly rewarding their sinne . and thus the enemy condemneth himselfe . for he that for sin , inflicteth punishment , doth a good work of justice , and suffreth it not onely to be done : but god for sin blinded the eyes , and hardned the hearts of the iewes and aegyptians ; therefore in blindning and hardening , god was a doer ( as a just iudge ) and not a sufferer onely , as while ere they pleaded . between these two there is great difference . the greekes tooke softh●nes and beat him before gallioes judgement seat ; here gallio suffered them onely , caring for none of those things , act. 18.15.16.17 . paul and silas were beaten and imprisoned by the magistrates commandement , act. 16.22.23 , here the magistrates not onely suffered , but were agents also in their beating and imprisoning , though they did it by other wicked m●ns hands . so god when hee commandeth satan to goe and deceiue , or harden wicked sinners , 1. king. 22.22 , whē he giveth sinners up to a reprobat mind , rom. 1.24.26 , 28 , then god deceiveth , god hardneth in just judgement , and doth not onely suffer these things . when the iudge delivereth an evill doer to the officer , & the offi●er cast him into prison , luk. 12.58 , the iudge doth this by the offi●er . so god is the iudg , he delivereth evil doers to satan to be their deluder , their tormentor , their goaler , he giveth them up to blindnes , hardnes , reprobate minds ; & these are works of his justice , which satan and evill men execute most sinfully . christ saith , he came into this world for judgement , that they which see not might see , and that they which see might be made blind , iob. 9.39 . now in what manner god blindeth and hardneth sinners it is not in man to declare : for his judgements are unsearchable , and his wayes past finding out , rom. 11.33 , but they that for his judgements would make god the author of sin , erre on the one hand : and they that ascribe unto him herein but a bare permission , erre on the other hand . godlinesse will teach us to beleeue and rest in that which the scriptures teach : though it passe our reach and capacitie how god in his wisedome doth these things . hitherto of predestination . of election . they proceed to speake of election ; where after they haue set downe ( as they thinke good themselues ) what our opinion is , they propound their owne doctrine , viz. that christ came to cure all men of their sinnes , but with a bitter medicine , which is , that we must deny our selues , take up his crosse , and follow him . so many as refuse to take this medicine , cannot be cured , but such as receiue it are cured . again , that they are elected who doe put on christ , and that our election dependeth upon this condition , according to the scriptures , the lord chooseth to himselfe a righteous man , and they that were not gods people , shall be his people , &c. if they seeke righteousnesse by faith , and these are the elect , according to the election of grace . election ( they say ) is not of particular person , but of qualitie : all persons are gods generation ; and those persons in whom hee findeth faith and obedience , of his meere mercy those persons hee electeth to salvation , for the quality he findeth in them ; whi●h hee himselfe hath wrought by his word and spirit , which they might haue resisted , but did not , but submitted to the righteousnesse of god ; and this is gods purpose of election before the world was ; and these are they whom god knew , or acknowledged before . and for gods decree they feigne it to be thus , i will cause all nations to be taught ( by christ ) and so many of them , ( being all called ) as doe not behaue themselues as they ought , i will cause to be punished , and the rest i will blesse and make happie . this is the doctrine of blind odegos , the guide ; and ignorant ereunetes the searcher answereth , i doe thinke it so to haue bene . answ. very ignorantly and erroneously haue they propounded their opinion , with some truth mixing much errour , that the blind may lead the blind into the ditch . it is true , that such men as they describe are gods elect : it is also true that god hath wrought these good things in them by his word and spirit . but false it is , that our election dependeth upon this condition ; false , that election is not of particular persons , but of quality . false it is ( and thwarting their former speech ) that god electeth those persons in whom he findeth faith and obedience : for before election no such persons are to be found among all the sonnes of adam . false it is , and an abusing of the scripture , to say , that god chooseth to himselfe a righteous man. false it is to say ( in this matter of election ) that all persons are gods generation . briefly , the whole tenour of their description of gods election , is perverse and erroneous . for , 1 no scripture telleth them that our election to life , dependeth on this condition , of our faith and obedience . faith and obedience are the effects ( not the cause ) of our election , and are conditions following election , not going before it ; as it is written , as many as were ordained to eternall life beleeved , act. 13.48 , teaching that gods ordaining to life ( that is his election ) went before their beleeving , but these men invert the order of god , and would teach , that so many as beleeved ( beforehand ) were ordeined to life . 2 the apostle teacheth us , that whom god foreknew , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his sonne , rom. 8.29 , so that our conformity to the image of christ , our faith , obedience , bearing of his crosse &c. is that whereunto ( not that wherefore ) god predestined or chose us . this is most apparant by the words following : whom he did predestinate , them he also called , and whom he called them hee also justified , and whom he justified them he also glorified , rom. 8.30 , so then glorifying commeth after justifying ; justifying after calling ; calling , after predestinating or choosing unto life : and these graces are not before predestination or causes of it , as these adversaries would perswade . 3 it is written , that god hath chosen us in christ , before the foundation of the world ▪ that we should be holy ; and hee predestinated us unto the adoption of children by iesus christ , eph. 1.4.5 , so that our holinesse , and our adoption , are things that we are chosen unto , and doe follow election ; but are not the things going before , and which we are chosen for , because god findeth them in us . 4 paul teacheth us that god justifyeth the ungodly that beleeue in him , rom. 4 5 , now those whom he justifieth , he did choose and predestinate before , rom. 8.30 , therefore he chose the ungodly , the unrighteous , that they may be made godly , righteous , and holy , through his grace . but these men say , god chooseth a righteous man , whereas the scripture saith , there is none righteous , no not one , there is none that understandeth , none that seeketh after god , rom. 3.10.11 , so that if god should chuse the righteous onely , none at all should be chosen . they say , it is according to the scripture , but they shew no scripture that accordeth to their saying . if they intend psal 4.3 , the lord hath set apart ( or separated ) him that is godly for himselfe ; ( for i know not else what scripture they should meane , ) they are deceived and would deceiue ; for david speaketh not there of his election to life , but of his being set apart to the glory of the kingdome of israel , vvhich his enemies would haue turned to ignominy : neither useth he the vvord of election , but of setting-apart ( or separating after a marvellous sort ) vvhich vvord is used for gods administration tovvards his people after they are elected and called , as appeareth in ex. 33.16 , & 11.7 , yea and it is applyed to bruit beasts , vvhich are not partakers of the election that vve treat of , ex. 9.4 . 5 moses teacheth israel , that god gaue them not inheritance in the earthly canaan ( much lesse in the kingdome of christ ) for their righteousnesse or uprightnesse of their hearts , deut. 9 4.5.6 , he telleth them , because god loved their fathers , therefore hee choose their seed after them , deut. 4.37 . but these men vvould persvvade , that because men deny themselues , take up the crosse & follovv christ , ( that is , because they are righteous and holy ) therefore god chooseth them to inherite heaven . 6 because all men are by nature , or creation , the off-spring , or generation of god. act. 17.28 , these men vvould conclude that election to eternall life , is not of particular persons , but of quality : as if our first naturall birth , and our second supernaturall birth vvere all one : or , because all persons are of god by creation , therefore no persons ( or all persons ) are of god by regeneration , and by election . but it is palpable error to confound things so different . they proceed in their error , and say , all men to whom the gospel is preached , were elected to salvation in christ ; not actually , for they could not be actually chosen , before they had actually any being , but in the eternall purpose of god upon the condition afore spoken . answ. their first assertion is against truth , against reason . it is not true that all to whom the gospell is preached , were elected to salvation in christ : no scripture sayth so . we are taught the contrary by act. 13.46.48 . where the gospell was preached to many , but all that heard it were not elected to salvation : for as many as were ordained ( that is elected ) to eternall life , beleeved . but all beleeved not : therefore all were not ordained ( or elected ) to life . against reason it is to say , all are elected : for election implieth a leaving or refusing of some . where all ar taken , no choyse is made . their second saying is , all were elected , not actually , because they had no being ; but in gods eternall purpose . the action is in god , not in man : and his purposes or decrees are his actions : and if before the foundation of the world , god elected us in christ , as the apostle teacheth , eph. 1.4 . then were we actually chosen before we had naturall being : though gods choyse had not effect in us till we had being : but whereas they add , vpon the condition afore spoken ; it is an error before refuted . object . but of the elect paul sayth , ye were without christ , without god in the world , eph. 2.12 . so they were not then really and particularly elected . answ. howsoever they change their tearmes , their reason is not good . they were not without god or christ in respect of gods election , which he did before the world was made , eph. 1.4 . but in respect of their sinfull estate and unbeleefe , before they were called , they were without god. 2 obj. but the apostle sayth , after yee beleeved , ye were sealed with the holy spirit of promise , &c. eph. 1.13.14 . answ. what of this ? could they not be elected of the father , before they were sealed by the holy ghost ? gods election was before all time , eph. 1.4 . their calling and sealing by the spirit , was in time . but they would confound election and sealing ignorantly . 3 obiect . rom. 9.25 , 1 pet. 2.10 . i will call them my people which were not my people , &c. if we were actually and particularly chosen before the creation , then were we also really gods people , and could not at any time be sayd , not to be his people . answ. here againe they confound gods election , with his cal●●ng ▪ which is the manifestation of his election by the effect . gods predestination is before his calling , rom. 8.30 . so though they were not his people by calling , they were his by election . it is evident by act. 18.10 . that many in corinth were gods people , before they were called or converted . ieremy was knowne , sanctified and ordained to be a prophet , before he was formed or born , ier. 1.5 . and can we thinke he was not then also chosen to life ? they say , the apostles meaning is , that wee are first particularly chosen , when we receiue or put on christ. for god onely chooseth where be findeth faith and obedience to the gospell ; and rejecteth where these are wanting . herein they wrong the apostles , who neither spake nor meant as these men speak . it is shewed before from act. 13.48 . that election goeth before faith : so these men erre , that put it after . they pervert the order set down in rom. 8.30 . whiles they make men to be first called , justified , glorified ; and then predestinated unto life . they neglect pauls doctrine , that god chose us before the world was , that we should be holy : and teach new doctrine of antichrists devising , that god chose vs because we were holy . but to follow them in their doctrine : god chooseth none ( they say ) but where he findeth faith . where doth god find this , seeing he hath shut up all in unbeliefe ? rom. 11.32 . faith is not of our selves , it is the gift of god , eph. 2.8 . so then hee findeth not faith in his elect , but giveth them faith . and if they say some will not beleeue , and them god rejecteth : some will beleeue , and them god electeth : i demand , whence haue any this will to beleeue ? if they answer , of themselues and their own power ; the apostle telleth us the contrarie , it is god that worketh in us both to will and to doe of his good pleasure , phil. 2.13 . now god giveth not all men this will to beleeue and obey : for some cannot beleeve , 1. ioh. 12.39 . some are reprobate concerning faith and every good work . 2. tim. 3.8 . tit. 1 16. if god would giue all men alike grace , he could make all men willing to beleeue and obey : but this hee doth not : for in some he giveth a new heart and a new spirit , and takes away the stony heart out of their flesh , ezek. 36.26 . in other some he hardeneth their heart , that they cannot beleeue , nor turne unto him , ioh. 1● . 39 40. the mysterie of his gospel , god bideth from some , and revealeth to oth●rsome : even so , for so it seemed good in his sight , math. 11.25.26 . he hath mercie on whom he will , & whom he will he hardeneth , rom. 9.18 . by this which hath been sayd , all that loue the truth may see , that all men to whom the gospell is preached , are not elected to salvation in christ , as these corrupters of the gospell teach : neither can all men beleeue , or obey ; because god giues them not such grace . some refuse indeed willingly , and they perish justly : some ( who naturally are as bad as other , & haue harts of stone not of flesh ) are changed , new hearts are given them , faith and holines are wrought in them , and so they are brought unto salvation whereunto they were elected . why god changeth the heart of some and not of other some , when he could if he pleased , change alle is not a question to be disputed of , rom. 9.19.20 . let it suffice us , that god oweth us nothing , except death for our sinnes . his grace is his owne , he may giue it where he will , and none haue cause to complaine : if god haue given grace to any of us , let us praise him for his mercie : when we see others left without grace , let us reverence him for his unsearchable judgements . the rest of their discourse about election , though there be many abuses they offer to the scriptures , which mought justly be taxed , yet because they none of them doe proue these mens vniversal election , nor disproue our faith , i think needlesse to reply unto . of reprobation . together with election , they treat of reprobation , badly as before , our doctrine they pretend to be thus , they say , god hath reprobated some , and the greatest number , and that before they were borne , and had done evill ; for whom there was never meanes of salvation , because god would haue them perish , for that was his good pleasure . answ. we hold not ( as they would beare the world in hand ) that god would haue men to perish , because it is his good pleasure : but because of their sinnes he destroyeth them , his justice so requiring . neither doe we hold that god euer decreed to punish his reasonable creature , without respect of the sin therof deserving punishment . yet was their punishment decreed before they were borne , or had done evill . for god foreseeing their wickednesse , appoynted them to wrath before they acted it , though hee inflicteth not punishment till they be sinners . and this the scripture teacheth , as in iude vers . 4. there are certaine men crept in , who vvere before of old ordained to this condemnation . if they vvere ordained to it before of old , then vvas it before they vvere borne . the same is confirmed by rom. 9.11.12.13 . vvhich scripture they seeke to pervert by a longsome and erroneous exposition . our doctrine being thus by them mis-reported ; they labour to refute their owne forgeries , not our assertions . so that they are unworthy of any reply . of falling away . the next errour which they would maintaine , is , that a man may fall from his election : or , that godly men , which are in the true and saving grace of god , may fall away : and may loose their heavenly inheritance which they haue right unto . this popish heresie they haue not confirmed by any one scripture , though they pervert many scriptures for a show to delude the simple . the faith which we professe is this : that the elect , however through satans tentations , and their owne infirmities , they are subject to fall from god and perish ; yet they are kept by the power of god , through faith unto salvation , 1 pet. 1.5 , though they through their weakenesse sin and fall , yet the lord putteth under his hand , psal. 37.24 , and the seed of god remaineth in them , and they cannot sin ( unto death ) because they are borne of god , 1 iob. 3.9 . though of themselues they are too ready to depart from god , yet he will not turne away from them to doe them good , but putteth his feare in their hearts , that they shall not depart from him , ier. 32.40 , so christs sheep shall never perish , neither shall any pluck them out of his hand , but he giveth unto them eternall life , ioh. 10 28 , and the elect cannot possibly be seduced from christ , mat. 24.24 . they plead for their errour by 7 reasons . the 1 is certaine scriptures ; as heb. 12.15 . look least any man faile of ( or fall from ) the grace of god. answ. this proveth not that god will suffer his elect to fall utterly from saving grace : but warneth them to take heed to themselues in respect of their own frailty , and satans subtilty . though gods election and foundation standeth sure , 2 tim. 2 ▪ 19 , yet we must make an end of our salvation with feare and trembling ; and must adde vertue unto faith , and giue diligence to make our calling and election sure ; which if we doe we shall never fall , 2 pet. 1.5 . ▪ 10. salt may loose his savour , mat. 5. answ. it may , if men be seasoned but with common grace , such as god giveth to many reprobates heb. 6.4.5.6 , but saving grace bestowed on the elect , is a gift and calling without repentance , rom. 11.29 . some that haue escaped the pollutions of the world , &c. may returne with the sow to wallow in the myre , 2 pet. 2.20.22 . answ. too many in deed doe so , but they are swine , not sheep of christ : they seemed to be washed , by the knowledge of the lord which they had , but their swinish nature was never changed . the apostle in that chapter speaketh of hypocrites and reprobates , which walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleannesse , v. 10 , which are as naturall bruit beasts , made to be taken and destroyed , v. 12. which are wells without water , v. 17 , so they never had saving grace . those that christ hath bought may be damned , 2 pet. 2.1 . answ. those are such as before i spake of , which were bought of christ by his offer of grace , and their feyned acceptance of it : but had they been in deed bought from the earth , they would haue followed the lamb , and should haue beene without fault before the throne of god , rev. 14.3.4 5. had they been justified by his bloud , and reconciled to god by his death ; much more should they bee saved by his life ; rom 5.9.10 . had they been of christs sheep , for whom he laid down his life , he would haue given them eternall life , ioh. 10.27 ▪ 28. and here note how these men would make christs sufferings vaine : for many whom ( as they think ) christ died for , shall die themselues for ever . where is now the justice of god , that punisheth the wicked thems●lues , and yet punished christ for them , without cause without fruit ? such doctrine the apostle doth abhorre , gal. 2.21 . some may tread vnder foot the bloud of christ , wherewith they were sanctified , &c. heb. 10.29 . answ. such were never sanctified otherwise then swine that were washed , whose filthy nature was never indeed changed , otherwise then by counterfeisance and hypocrisie . they that haue faith and good conscience , may put it away , and make shipwrack of it : and some may leaue their first faith , & be damned , 1 tim. 1.19 , & 5.12 . ans. faith is not alwaies in deed , that which it seemeth to be : there is a temporary faith , which falleth away in time of tentation , luke 8.13 ▪ a vaine dead faith , iam. 2 , and there is a living faith , the ●aith of gods elect , tit. 1 , 1 , this faith never faileth utterly , for it is the seed of god , by which we are regenerate , and it remaineth in us , keeping us from sinne , 1. joh. 3.9 . some written in the booke of life , may be put out , exod. 32.32.33 . psal. 69.25.28 , rev. 3.5 . answ. many things are spoken of god , not properly but figuratiuely , & after the manner of men . so god is no way changeable , mal. 3.6 , iam. 1.17 , neither doth he repent , 1. sam. 15.29 , yet is it said , it repented him that he had made man &c. gen. 6.6 , because in destroying the world , he did as men when they repent . so god is said to blot out of his book , those wicked which for a time seemed to themselues , & to others to be written in his book , but after by gods rooting them out , are manifested never to haue been written there ; for then they should haue continued there ▪ because the gifts and calling of god are without repentance , rom. 11 . ●9 , his foundation standeth sure , having this seale . the lord knoweth them that are his , 2 tim. 2.19 . but to the wicked he will professe , i never knew you , mat. 7 , 23. the talent may be taken from him that vseth it not well , mat. 25. answ. all that haue talents , that is gracious gifts , haue not true saving grace to sanctifie those gifts , neither are they all gods elect . this therfore is no proofe of the question in hand . the saints at rome that were justified by faith , and had accesse unto grace , rom. 5.1.2 , yet if th●y continued not in the bounty of god , they should be cut off , &c. rom. 11.22 . answ. this and the examples following are like to the former , and teach gods elect to haue care to continue in grace , without which there is no salvation . they teach also that hypocrites falling from god , shall perish . but none truely justified , and partakers of saving grace , shall perish , for god gloryfieth them , rom. 5.9 , & 8.30 , and he putteth his feare in their hearts , that they shall not depart from him , ier. 32 40 , and if they depart not , th●y perish not , but are kept by the power of god through faith unto salvation , 1 pet. 1.5 . 2 their second reason is , if the elect cannot fall out of gods favour , then did not all fall in adam , and then some were never dead in sinnes , and so need not christs redemption , &c. answ. an ignorant cavill : for the apostle teacheth that god hath chosen us in christ before the foundation of the world . eph. 1 4. these men speak of our state before christ. againe adam and all in him fell from grace , su●h as th●y had of god in creation ; but not from christian grace , from grace of election and redemption , whereof they had no need before ●h●ir fall , neither had they any promise of it till they were dead in si● , gen. 3 it is this saving grace in christ , from which the elect can never utterly fal , and not any other grace by creation , from whi●h all men and some angels haue fallen . 3 if the elect cannot fall from their election , then haue not all sinned and been deprived of the glory of god , and shut up in unbeleefe , &c. answ. the same sophistrie is in this reason , that was in the former , changing the state of the question , which is onely of them that in christ were chosen before the world was , and are by him redeemed , justified , sanctified , and shall haue eternall life , ioh. 10.28 , wheras these deceivers speak of men without christ , and before they are by him redeemed . 4 the ephesians were elect before the foundation of the world , eph. 1. yet having forsaken their first loue , if they repented not , god would remoue the candlestick &c. rev. 2. answ. this is answered in the answers to the scriptures which they brought in their first reason . it is true , the elect without repentance , faith , and perseverance cannot be saved . but all gods elect haue from him the grace to repent , beleeue , and continue in well-doing , as before is proved : so they cannot perish . but hypocrites which were among the saints onely , but never of them , they cannot continue with the saints , and so cannot be saved , 1 ioh. 2.19 . 5 if a man in gods favour and chosen cannot fall out of it : then need he not , though he commit incest , adultery , murder , &c. feare falling into damnation . answ. herein they abuse gods comfortable promises , as if men should continue in sin that grace may abound . far be it . all men ought to feare falling into any sinne , and the elect feare continually knowing their owne frailtie . our spirituall security is not carnall security : our faith is in god , not in our selues ; by his power we are kept , not by our owne . hee saith to his people , the mountaines shall depart , and the hills be removed , but my kindnesse shall not depart from thee , neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed ; esai . 54.10 . but if by feare , they meane feare without faith , that is despair : we beleeue that the elect though they fall into such sinnes , ought not to despaire or distrust gods mercy : as the examples of david , peter &c : which they alledge , doe evidently confirme . psal. 51. luke 22.31.32 . 6 if no man elect , can fall from his election by committing of any of these sinnes , then to what end is repentance taught ? it is in vaine , if they neither be , nor can be in condemnation , &c. answ. they that teach such doctrine , their religion is vaine . we beleeue as the elect cannot perish , so neither can they continue in sin : he that is borne of god ( saith the apostle ) committeth not sinne , 1 ioh. 3.9 . all that truely beleeue that they are elect , doe also beleeue and know , that by repentance , faith , and abiding in christ , they must come to the end of their election , the salvation of their soules : this is the way and meanes unto life , and without this they cannot see god. 7 to what end are men admonished or exhorted not to receiue the grace of god in vaine , 2 cor. 6.1 , not to fall from their stedfastnesse , 2 pet. 3.17 &c. if they cannot fall into them , doth the lord use words in vain ? answ. no , but these mens words are vaine . for god as he hath ordained men to life , hath also ordained his lawes , exhortations , threatnings &c. as meanes to bring them into life . he dealeth not with men as with stones , to cary them into heaven by violence ; but giueth them repentance , faith , loue , zeale , care and other graces ; hee perswadeth , moveth , draweth them to come willingly , and to continue carefully , and so at last saveth them . in the next place , these fallers from grace , seeke to wrest the scriptures which refute their heresie . vnto christs words in mat. 24.24 , if it were possible they should deceiue the very elect : they answer , that the elect , ( namely those that receiue and obey the truth iesus christ , and abide in him to the death , ) cannot perish . answ. great is the truth that forceth the adversaries to yeeld ; this is that which we maintaine ; and christs words ( if it were possible ) proue it undenyably ; and sheweth it to be unpossible that the elect should be deceived to loose christ. obj. our controversie is whether those that be elect , may fall out of it : and not whether those that abide in it can perish . answ. here they would unsay that which before they said well . and the controversie they make is meere cavilling . for if it be unpossible that the elect should be seduced from christ , then is it unpossible they should perish ; and consequently it is unpossible that they should fall from their election . again , if it be possible that they should fall from their election , then is it possible they should perish , and possible that they should be seduced from christ : and so our saviours words will not stand . how greatly are these deceivers fallen themselues , that seek so to pervert the plaine words of christ. object . many fall from their election , not by being deceived , but willingly forsake the truth , against or after their inlightning , heb. 6 ▪ 4 , &c. and 10.26 , &c. answ. first , this is nothing to christs words in mat. 24.24 . secondly , the scriptures which they cite , say not ( nor doth any scripture say ) that the elect may fall from their election either by deceit or willingly . thirdly , as god keepeth all his elect from being deceived from christ : so hee keepeth them from willing forsaking of christ : for he putteth his feare in their hearts , that they shall not depart from him , ier. 32.40 , hee stablisheth them in christ , and annointeth them , and sealeth them , and giveth the earnest of the spirit in their hearts , 2 cor. 1.21 ▪ 22. an other sure proofe of the salvation of all gods elect is in ioh. 10.3.4.5.8.14.15.27.28.29 . this scripture the adversaries would pervert with this glosse : that so long as they continue christs sheep , heare his voyce and follow him , so long they are sure , and haue safetie in gods acceptance , &c. but if they doe evill and will not heare his voice , then he will repent of the good that he promised , ier. 18.10 , &c. answ. first , that by sheep are meant gods elect whom hee will saue , is plaine by the parable of the sheep and goats , math. 25.33 , &c. secondly , in iohn 10 , christ useth no such words , so long as they continue , so long as they heare his voyce , &c. but he plainly telleth us , that the sheep doe heare voyce , v. 3 , that they follow him , v. 4 , that they will not follow a stranger , neither know they his voice , v. 5. that the sheep did not heare strangers , v. 8 , yea all christs sheep shall heare his voice , v. 16.27 , and he giveth them eternall life , and they shall never perish , neither shall any pluck them out of his hand , or his fathers , v. 28.29 . hovv unsufferably novv doe these men vvrest christs heavenly vvords ! thirdly , the exception vvhich they put , if they doe evill in his sight , and will not heare his voyce , then hee will repent of the good , &c. this exception is unpossible to b●e found in christs sheepe : for though through infirmitie they fall , yet he casteth them not off , for the lord upholdeth them with his hand , psal : 37 , 24 , though they stray he seeketh them up , psal : 119 , 176 , he brings againe that which was driven away , binds up that which was broken , strenthens that which was sick , &c. ezek : 34 , 16 , he circumciseth their heart to loue the lord , with all their heart and withall their soule , that they may liue , deut : 30 , 6 , such as beleeue not , and heare not his voyce , are not sheep , but goats or swine ; as christ sayd to the iewes , ye beleeue not , because ye are not of my sheepe , ioh : 10 , 26. and how is it possible that the sheep should perish , seeing god is greater then all , in whose hand they are , ioh : 10 , 28 , 29. if satan assaile them , the god of peace will tread him under their feet , rom : 16 , 20 , if the world , they overcome it by their faith , for greater is he that is in them , then he that is in the world , 1 joh. 4 , 4 , & 5 , 4 , if their owne corruptions rebell in them ; god not onely pardoneth , but also subdueth their iniquities , mic : 7 , 18 , 19 : as he caried them from the wombe , so hee hath promised to cary them even unto old age , and hoarie haires , esa : 46 , 3 , 4. he sanctifieth them wholly , and preserveth their whole spirit , and soule and body blamelesse unto the comming of christ , 1 thess : 5.23 . if neither satan , nor the world , nor the flesh can draw th●m from christ : nothing can draw them away ; but they are kept by the power of god through faith unto salvation , 1 pet. 1.5 . vnto ioh. 13 1. where it is sayd , christ loved his own vnto the end ; they first say , that the meaning is , vnto the end of his life . ans. this is a frivolous limitation : did christ loue his owne no longer then vvhiles he lived with them in this vvorld ? who taught these miserable men thus to limit and lessen the loue of christ ? he himselfe testifieth otherwise to his people ; i haue loved thee with an everlasting love , therefore with loving kindnesse haue i drawne , ier. 31.3 . but it seemeth their conscience checked them vvhen they wrote such doctrine : therefore after they say , that he loveth his for ever ; but the question is not of christs loue unto his , but of their loue vnto him . a. this is no answer to joh. 13.1 . vvhich speaketh of christs loue , not of theirs . secondly , it is unpossible that christ should loue any for ever , if they also loue not him . for such as hate and forsake him , them also he vvill hate and forsake : and so cannot loue them for ever . thirdly , it is before proved from jer. 31.3 . that those whom he embraceth with everlasting loue , he also draweth vvith loving kindnesse : and being drawen , they run after him , song . 1.4 . those whom hee loveth first , they loue him 1. ioh. 4.19 . he circumciseth their heart to loue him , deut. 30.6 . hee putteth his feare vnto their heart , not to depart from him , ier. 32.40 . and nothing can separate them from the loue of christ , rom , 8.35 . vnto rom. 11.29 . where the apostle sayth , the gifts and calling of god are without repentance : they answer with their common exception , that if the iewes abide not still in unbeliefe , they shall be grafted in againe : of this the gifts and calling of god are without repentance . answ. they still labour to overthrow one part of the truth by alledging another . the apostle as he sayth , that if the iewes abide not in unbeliefe , they shall bee grafted in , for god is able , rom. 11.23 ▪ so he further sayth , that blindnesse in part is happened to israel , untill the fulnesse of the gentiles be come in , and so all israel shall be saved , as it is written . there shall come out of syon the deliverer , and shall turne away ungodlines from iakob , &c. v. 25 26. and further telleth us , that as touching the election , they are beloved for the fathers : wherof the reason is this : for the gifts and calling of god are without repentance , v. 28.29 therefore as the first is true , that god is able to graffe them in , so the second is also true , that he is willing , and they shal be graffed in : as there is a condition on their parts , if they abide not in unbelief , so there is an absolute promise on gods part , that they shal not abide in it ; because christ the deliverer will turne away ungodlines from them , that is , he will take away their unbeliefe and hardnesse , hee will take away their sins , v. 26 27. vvhich is a plain evidence that he loveth them , and repenteth not of his former loue and promise . and as he dealeth with the elect iewes , so doth he vvith all the elect gentiles : therefore all gods elect shall in time be converted , and haue their sins forgiven them , and so undoubtedly saved by him whose gifts and calling are vvithout repentance . in 1. ioh. 2.19 . it is sayd , they went out from us , but they were not of us , for if they had been of us , they would no doubt haue continued with us , &c. this place sheweth , that hypocrites and reprobates vvhich abide not ; vvere never of christs church , though crept for a time amongst them . it teacheth also , that all vvho are of the saints , of christs sheep and his elect , doe abide , and fall not away to perdition . to this they make answer , first by an open slander ; that we should affirme , that god hath predestinated some to salvation ; and some to damnation without any condition . this we affirme not , but they falsly charge us , as i haue formerly manifested . againe they say we affirme , that the elect making never so great shew of vvickednesse , and vvalking in the vvayes of b●●●all , are stil elect , and can by no meanes fall out of their election , &c. but herein they keepe their wont . had they dealt honestly , they should haue shewed vvho and vvhere vve thus affirme . we hold that the elect after their calling , are carefull to avoyd all sinne , as it is vvritten , we know that whosoever is borne of god sinneth not ; but he that it begotten of god keepeth himselfe , and that wicked one toucheth him not , 1 ioh. 5 , 18 , and though the elect fal through infirmitie into many grievous sins , yet they abide not alwayes in them , but are renewed by repentance and faith in christ : and whiles they are fallen , they are not cast off , psa. 37 , neither doth god repent of his electing of them , nor utterly depriveth them of grace and his good spirit , psal. 51 , luk : 22 , 31 , 32 , ezek : 34 , 16. thirdly , they tell us of difference between persons as they are gods generation ( or creatures ) and qualities good or evill . but this ( howsoever they boast of the excellencie of it ) is to no purpose : for all men being corrupted with evill qualities , rom. 2. & 3● how is it that any are changed into good ; but by the povver and grace of god , vvhich is effectuall in all his elect : the residue abide in their sinnes , because god changeth not nor reneweth their harts , and such he never elected unto life , but ordained them of old unto condemnation , iude v ●4 . lastly they answer vvith absurd sophistry ; saying , that these vvords , 1 ioh : 2 : 19 : they went out from us , is meant of lying spirits , the antichrists , in those persons , vvho once had the spirit of truth in them . and the apostle sayth , they were never of us : for v : 21 ▪ no lye is of the truth : for example ( say they ) the spirit of hymeneus , together vvith his person , was in spirituall fellowship vvith paul , so long as he reteined faith & a good conscience , but having put avvay the spirit of truth , and received a lying spirit , he vvent out from them in that his spirit , for or because it was never of them , &c. will any say that the pope himselfe is antichrist in respect of his person ? or rather in regard of his spirit or spirituall power he hath . therfore all that this place proveth , is , that lying spirits or antichrists in mens persons , went out from the truth , and were never of the truth ; and therfore serveth nothing to proue that the elect can never fall away . answ. was ever plaine scripture more violently wrested , by any heretick ? the apostle sayth of the many antichrists , they went out from us , but they were not of us , 1 ioh. 2 , 18 , 19. this these men will not haue to be meant of their persons , but of their spirits in their persons . and what understand they by their spirits ? their lyes , their errors , their spirituall power , such as the pope hath : that is ( as before they distinguished ) their wicked qualities ; not their persons : for god ( they say ) loveth all persons , they being his generation , act. 17.27 . first it is an errour to say god hateth not the persons of wicked men , but the evill qualities in them onely : for though hee hateth no creature in respect of their creation which was good ; yet the creature being degenerate and fallen from god , he hateth their wickednesse and them also for it , as the scripture plainely witnesseth , psal. 5.4.5.6 & 11 5. 2 it is erroneous to say , that by spirits , the apostle meaneth not persons , but qualities , 1 ioh. 4.1 . for himselfe sheweth his meaning , when he saith , because many false prophets are gone out into the world . so by spirits to be tried , he meaneth prophets , which came with spirituall gifts : and it is frequent in scripture to call subjects or persons , by the name of adjuncts or qualities in them : as , i am against thee ê pride , ier. 50 , 31 , that is , ô thou most proud● : and , pride shall stumble and fall , v. 32 , that is , the proud person : the poverty of the land , 2 king. 24 , 14 , 15 , the poorest people . deceit ( or sloth ) rosteth not that which he took in hunting , prov. 14 , 27 , that is , the deceitfull man ; and many the like . 3 it is from the deepness● of familisme , to say , that antichrists are not persons , but evil qualities in men , so christ may be holden no person , but a godly quality in us . the apostle speaketh of the person , for he saith not the lye , but the lyer , he that denyeth that iesus is the christ , he is antichrist : 1 ioh. 2.22 . 4 it is an absurd exposition of 1 ioh 2 , 19 , to put qualities for persons . he there sp●aketh of antichrists , they went out fro● us ; these men will haue it , evill or antichristian qualities went out from us . bu● what sense then will they make of the last branch of the verse , that they might be made manifest , that they were not all of us ? will they say , some antichristian qualities were of the apostles ; though not all ? the meaning is evident , that in the church are persons some good , some bad , some elect , some reprobate● : but whiles they abide and walk together in the church , it is not manifest who are of the church , who are not ; but when the wicked and reprobates depart from th● truth and church , then it is manifest that such apostates , though for a time in the church , yet were never of it . so it is a sure proofe , that gods elect are both in and of the church of christ , and shall never fall away utterly from it . of freewill . this point these adversaries hand●e confusedly , and maliciously . confusedly , because they shew not what they meane by freewill , or freedome of will : whether free from compulsion , or free from bondage of sinne . m●liciously , for that they feigne the calvinists to hold , that the wicked are not onely lift by gods suffring , but compelled to sinne by power , &c. compelled by the power , force and compulsion of gods predestination , to commit all those wicked crimes , for which they are punished by the magistrate , or tormented in hell , &c. and then much more doth it in goodnesse , as violent●y work all : so that the godly can neither chuse nor refuse goodnesse . answ. if these adversaries haue common honestie , let them shew out of the writings of the calvinists ( as they call them ) these assertions which they impute unto them . till they doe this , let them haue their name and fame among lyers and workers of iniquity . as for us , we abhorre these doctrines of compulsion to sin by force and power of gods predestination &c. as for will in man , we know it to be a naturall facultie , still remaining ▪ though corrupted by sin , as all oth●r like faculties in us . we acknowledge it still to be free from compulsion or constreynt , for so will should be no vvill ▪ but we confesse with grei●e that in respect of bondage to sinne ( under which all m●n were sold , rom. 7 , 14. ) it may rather be called bond will , then free will : for it is not free to refuse sin , untill it be renued by christ : and so far as it is regenerate by him , it is againe ( as other powers and faculties in the saints ) freed by grace , and willeth things that are good . againe , they produce ( to their owne condemnation ) out of bastingius , and the disput. in geneva these words ; man by evill was spoyled , not of his will , but of the soundnesse of his will : therefore that which in nature was good , in quality became evill : and bernard teacheth , there is in us all power to will , but to will well we had need to profite better : to will evill , we are able already by reason of our fall . the which if they would stand unto ( saith this adversarie ) i would require no more . answ. this we will stand unto , and thereby doe evince odegos to be a blinde guide and vaine disputer , that with lyes and calumnies would disgrace his opposites . we grant evill free-will ( or free will to evill ) is remaining in all naturall men : we beleeue that freewill to good , is from grace and regeneration ; and that all the saints haue it in part , as they haue knowledge , faith , and other vertues here in part : which shall be perfected in the life to come . and if no more be required , his fruitlesse dispute is at an end : and it is worthlesse labour to answer words of winde . of originall sin . the anabaptists hold ( more erroneously then the very papists , ) that originall sin is an idle terme , and that there is no such thing as men intend by the word . in this their dialogue they set the state of the question thus ; of the originall estate of mankinde . wherein they speak doubtfully and deceitfully . for mans originall estate is properly that described in gen. 1 ▪ which was by creation very good . but since the fall of adam , our originall estate is through that fall become sinfull and miserable : and is so acknowledged by david , psal. 51.5 , by iob , iob. 14.4 . by paul , rom. 5 , 12 &c. eph●s . 2.3 , and by ch●ist himselfe , ioh. 3 , 3 , 5 , 6. notwithstanding these adversaties affirme . that no infant whatsoever , is in the estate of condemnation of hell with the wicked . which they thinke to proue thus . without sin there is no condemnation , rom. 6 , 23. ez●k . 18 , 4 , 20 ; without transgression of the law there is no sin , 1 ioh. 3 , 4 , rom. 5 , 13. therefore if infants haue transgressed no law , there is no condemnation them . answ. the conclusion ( which implyeth that infants are not transgressers of gods law ) is denyed . the apostle teacheth us ▪ that by one man sin entered into the world , and death by sinne : and so death passed upon all men , for that all haue sinned : and , by one mans disobedience , many were made sinners ; rom. 5 , 12 , 19. note also how th●se men thwart ●h●mselues : before , when they pleaded for falling from grace , one of their reasons was , if the elect cannot fall out of gods f●vour ▪ then did not all fall in adam , and th●n s●me were never dead in sinnes and trespasses , and so need not christs redemption , &c. now they plead , that no infants are sinners : which if it be so , then many ( as all that die infants ) never fell in adam , nor needed christs redemption . and so such shall either not come into heaven , or shall come thither other wayes then by christ ; contrary to iob. 14 , 6 , act. 4 , 12. but these en●mies dispute ( against the apostles doctrine ) thus . infants had no l●fe nor being at that time ( when the law was given to a●am : ) and the law is given to them that know it , and hath dominion over a man as long as he liv●th . therefore infants having no being , and so no knowledge , nor being then living , that law had no dominion over them . answ. first , this is no more against infants then old men : for no man had life or being at that time o●herwise then infants had so adams fall was for himselfe alone , and ●o man fell with him ; for no man then had life 〈◊〉 b●ing but he . and thus th●se lying spirits feare not to resist the apostle , who saith , through the offence ( or fall ) of one , many are dead ▪ rom. 5.15 , by the offence of one , ( judgement come ) upon all men to condemnation , v ●8 , ●y one mans disobed●●n●e , many were mad● sinners , v. 1● , in adam all dyed , 1 cor. 15 , 22. this apostolike doctrine is as contrary to the anabaptists , as light is to darknesse . 2 they hereby weaken ( if they could ) the apostles argument in heb. 7 , 9 , 10 , by levies paying tithes to melchisedek in abraham : for a man might cavill , that levi had no life nor being at that time . but paul saith , he was in the loines of his father abraham , when melchisedek met him . so say i , we all were in the loines of our father adam , when he transgressed . if then levi payd tithes when abraham did , we all brake gods law when adam did . 3 they hereby weaken ( as they can ) the apostles proofe of our redemption by christ : for he saith , that adam is the figure of christ that was to come : and if through the offence of one many bee dead , much more th● gift ●y grace , by one man iesus christ hath abounded unto many : and , as by one mans disobedience many be made sinners , so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous , rom. ● , 14.15 , 19. now take away the first , namely the transgression of all men in adam ; and it overthroweth the latter , to weet the righteousnesse and salvation of the world by christ. 4 they abuse the apostles words , in rom. 7.1 , whence they would proue , that the law ( given to adam ) was given to them ( onely ) that knew it ; namely to adam and his wife , not to th●●r children which knew it not ; wh●ras the apostle speaking to the romanes , spake to them that knew the law ; the more to convince them : he deneyeth not that god gaue his law to adam and his posterity in his loynes . the lord calleth those things which be not , as though they were , rom. 4 , 17 , he spake to cyrus , and gaue him promises , before cyrus knew him , or was borne into this world , , esa. 45 , 1 , — 5 , he promised the land to abraham and to his seed after him , when as yet he had no child , act. 7 , 5 , he made a covenant with israel , not with them onely that stood there that day , but with thē also that were not there that day with them , deut. 29 , 14 , 15. and if he did thus imply the children with the parents in other covenants & promises : how much more did he the like to adams seed : seeing adam is spoken of , not as a particular man , but a generall : so that his unrighteousnesse was not his owne onely , but his childrens also ; even as christs righteousnesse ( whom adam figured ) was not his own onely , but is communicated with all his children , who therefore is the second adam causing life , as the first adam caused death , rom. 5 , 1 cor. 15. 5 like vanity is in their next words , infants had then no being , no life , therefore the law had no dominion over them ; for so they might elude pauls argument of levies paying tithes , heb. 7 , 9 , 10 , saying , levi had then no being , no life , therefore he could pay no tithes in abrahams daies . but as the apostle sayth hee was in the loines of abraham , and so hee payed tithes : likewise we were in the loynes of adam , and so we sinned . again in rom. 7 , 1 , the apostle speaketh of a man during life , who when he is dead , his wife is free from his law , v. 2. if they will apply this to all sin and sinners , then they think when a wicked man dieth , the law of god hath no dominion over him any more ; & so there is no punishment by the law of god to be inflicted on sinners after this life . but do these vain man think by such sophistry to escape the damnation of hell ? doe they not know that after death commeth judgement , and that by the law ? heb. 9.27 . rom. 2.12.16 . against the apostles doctrine in rom. 5. they alleage , that we were in adam , not to bring any soule to hell for breach of that command , thou shalt not eat : for the lord sayth , all soules are mine , both the soule of the father , and the soule of the son : that soule that sinneth it shall dye . the son shall not beare the iniquitie of the father , &c. ans. first the prophet speaketh not in ezek. 18.4 . &c. of adam , but of the later fathers of the iewes , which sinned , v. 2. but paul speaketh of adam , who was not onely a particular person ( as all other fathers in this case are ) but an universall man , the root of all mankind , and a figure of christ , rom. 5.14 . againe the prophet speaketh of such sonns as are just , and do not such like sins as their fathers did , ezek. 18.5.14 . &c. but paul speaketh of us all as we are in adam , unjust and sinners , and guiltie of our first fathers iniquitie , r●m . 5.12.19 . so these two scriptures the one speaking of actuall sinnes vvhi●h are eschewed , the other speaking of originall sinne , which we now cannot avoyd ▪ speak not of one and the same sinne or estate , and therefore doe not one expound an other ▪ thirdly , the prophet exempteth the good children , which eschew their fathers si●nes , from death , ezek. 18.9.17 . the apostle inwrappeth us all the sonnes of adam in his sinne and in death ; rom. 5.12 ▪ 14 17. fourthly , the prophet speaketh generally of the many sinnes which the fathers did , and the sonnes did not , ezek. 18.6.7.8.18 . the apostle speaketh of that one sinne or offence , by vvhich we all ( being in adams loynes ) are guiltie . rom. 5.16 ▪ but to this they both agree , the prophet sayth , the soule that sinneth , it sh●ll die , ezek. 18 4 the apostle sayth , th●t all haue sinned ( to vvit , in adams loynes ) therefore death pa●seth upon all , rom. 5. ●2 , hereby all vvise men may see , how impertinent a proofe the anabaptists bring from ezek. 18. that adams sinne brings not any soule to hell . for adams sinne bringing sinne and death upon all , and hell being the death vvhich is eternall : it is brought by his sinne upon all his posteritie : except through i●sus christ our lord , they haue eternall life , which is the gift of god , rom. 6.23 . further , they answer , ( and desire it may well be observed ) that mankind was onely in adam in their bodily substance : he is the father of our bodies in respect of matter ; but our forme and soules came from god : he is the father of our spirits , heb. 12.9 . eccles. 12.7 . & 8 ▪ 8 ▪ that earthly matter was in adam , of which our bodies are made , &c. thus and no otherwise were we in adam . answ. we obserue it well , and obserue their error also . it is untrue that thus ( to wit in respect of our bodies onely ) we were in adam , and not in respect of our soules : no scripture teacheth them this , but their own fansie . for though our soules were not in all respects in adam , as our bodies were , to wit , materially : yet in some resp●ct ( to wit formally ) we were in adam both body and soule ; which i thus manifest . adam begat seth in his own image , gen. 5 abraham begat isaak , &c. math. 1. so body begetteth not body ; but man begetteth man : and man consisteth of body and soule , which are the parts that constitute a man. so man ( that is the whole , not part of a man on●ly ) is sayd to be borne of a woman , iob. 14.1 . yea the 66 soules ( whereby figuratiuely is meant persons , consisting of bodies and soules ) are sayd to come out of iakobs thigh ( or loynes ) gen. 46.26 . and levi in the l●ynes of abraham is sayd to pay tythes , heb 7.9 10. now the body without the spirit is dead , and therefore cannot pay tythes , nor do any action . and in the place and case in hand , in adam all sinned , all died , judgement came on all men to condemnation , rom. 5.12.18 . but the body without the soule sinneth not , neither ●yeth , nor shall bee condemned . therefore it is apparant that the scripture speaketh of men in adam otherwise then in respect of their bodies onely : so that th●se mens speciall observation is nothing worth . againe they plead , as god gaue no law to adam , before hee gaue him a soule of reason and understanding : no m●re doth he giue to any of adams posteritie , a●y law , till he giue them soules of reason and understanding , as in deut. 11.2 . i speak not to your children which haue neither known nor seen , &c. answ. first the words of moses to israel to whom he propounded the law , are not to be compared with gods law given to adam : for the israelites were spoken to personally : adam generally as an universall man , the root of all mankine , as before is proved . secondly , the covenant of moses law , did also after a sort pertaine to their children which then were not , deut. 29.14.15 . though it was actually taught th●m onely which were present , d●ut . 11. thir●ly , the sin which paul treateth of , and death for sin , was in the world before moses law , which these men speak of , rom. 5.12.13.14 . fourthly , let all they say be given them , yet it helpes them not : for i haue before proved , that we were all in adam as living men , not as dead corpses ▪ and so had soules of ●easo● and understanding in him originally ; even as we had bodies , eyes , eares ; &c. in him originally : though after a different manner as before is noted . further they say , god never purposed to execute on adam for that transgression condemnation to hell ; in that hee purposed to send christ betwixt , in whom adam beleeving should be saved . if adam for his own sin was not condemned to hell without remedy , shall any of his posteritie be sent to hell without remedy , and that for his sin ? &c. answ. 1. the question in the first place is changed , which is , whether adam and all his posteritie in him falling from god , deserved not hell for their sinne . this they deny not , neither can disproue . 2. as god purposed not to damne adam for his sinne ; so neither purposed he to damne noah for his drunkennesse , lot for his incest , david for his adultery and murder , &c. but to giue th●m remedie by faith in christ. will they hereupon plead that other actuall drunkards , murderers , whoremongers , deserue not damnation : or shall not many such be damned for these sinnes ? 3. though all infants for their natiue sinne , and all men for their actuall sinnes deserue damnat●on : yet never was it gods purpose to damne all without remedy . for christ ( the second adam ) giveth righteousnesse and life to all infants and old transgressors that are borne of him ; as the first adam conveyed unrighteousnesse and death to all his ordinary naturall posteritie . yea grace here exceedeth : for the judgement ( or guilt ) of originall sin was by one ( offence ) to condemnation ; but the free gift ( by christ ) is of many offences , unto justification , rom. 5.16 . they object , that condemnation is for not beleeving in christ , ioh ▪ 3 ▪ 19. & 16 9. mar. 16.16 . rom. 11.32 . answ. first th● apostle sayth , the wages of sin is death , rom. 6.23 . therefore the wicked shall be condemned not onely for their not beleeving in christ , but also for their unmercifulnesse , idolatries , adulteries and other crimes , math. 25.41.42 . rom. 2.5 . — 9. secondly , the sinne of unbeliefe cleaveth unto all adams children as other sinnes : and shall be imputed as well as the sin of lust , or any other iniquitie . thirdly , to beleeue is not in the will or power of man , but is the gracious gift of god , to such as he hath ordained unto life . eph. 2 8 ▪ act , 13.48 . againe they alledge , that adam by that transgression deprived himselfe of gods favour in that estate wherein he was in paradise : and notwithstanding the promise of christ , hath by his si● procured this judgment , cursed is the earth for thy sake &c gen. 3. thus adam brought hims●lfe and all his posterity , the earth and every creature in it to vanitie and bondage of corruption , rom. 8.20 . &c. and in this estate are all adams sonnes begotten and borne : so that by adams sin , vanitie , corruption and death went over all , &c. so infants haue originall corruption , as other creatures haue . yet those that dye and haue corruption by adams sinne , shall not be cast into hell fire . answ. a felon , murderer , traytor , that is apprehended by the magistrate , imprisoned , kept in fetters and affl●ction , his lands and goods confiscate , &c. pleadeth he ought not to be put to death , because he hath suffered for his crimes , losse of liberty , goods , &c. but will this plea saue him even such is the plea of th●se evill men . for all men being in adam fall●n from god , and traytors to his maiestie , children of wrath , & seruants of sin and satan , because god hath cursed the earth for their sake , cast them out of earthly paradise , made the creatures subi●ct to vanity , and themselues subject to sorrowes and miseries ; therfore they d●serue not to die in hell , if these vaine men may be judges . but we know the judgement of god is according to truth against all evill doers . he telleth us , the wages of sinne is death , but the gift of god is eternall life through christ , rom. 6.23 . where eternall life being opposed to death , sheweth that eternall death is the wages due for sin . and what sin is is there that des●rveth not hell ? 2. whereas they say , adam by his sin deprived himselfe of paradice : it is true . but if they mean earthly paradice onely , they erre from the truth : for by his sinne he was depriv●d also of the heavenly paradice , to which there is no restoring but by christ , luk. 23.43 . reu. 2.7 . and as himself , so all his posteritie that sinned in him , rom. 5. thirdly , so where they say , all his posteritie were subjected to vanitie and corruption , it is true ; but not all the truth , unlesse they understand such corruption as peter speaketh , 2. pet. 2.12 . which is eternall destruction , and then they yeeld the cause . but they meane not so , but corruption such as is in beasts , birds , &c. wherein they goe quite astray . for beasts and other brutish and s●ncelesse creatures , are not sinners , as all adams children are , rom. 5 ▪ 12.19 sin is not but in reasonable creatures onely , as angels and men . neither is any creature subiect to eternall torment , but sinners onely . other creatures when they perish , there is an end of them , and of their miserie with them : but they that perish in their sins , haue no end of their miserie , but it is eternall , math. 25.46 . mark. 9.45.46 . wherfore they doe not well to expound rom. 5. by rom. 8 because the apostle speaketh not of the same , but of divers things and estates in those two chapters . fourthly , take that which they say , and it overthroweth them . for how should adams sin bring all his posteritie unto death , but by their guilt in adams sinne ? if it made not them sinners , the scripture which they formerly alledged , ezek. 18. teacheth that the children should not dye for their fathers sinnes . now seing many infants dye daily , it proveth them all to be sinners , because death is the wages of sin , rom. 6 23. gen. 2.17 . at length they come to answer rom. 5. with this perverse doctrine , this is the meaning of the holy ghost , that by adams sinne , all his posteritie haue weak natures , rom. 8.3 . by which , when the commandement comes ( rom. 7.10 . ) th●y cannot obey and liue , but sinne and so dye ; till when they are aliue without the law , so sayth the apostle vers . 9. and thus is verified , that all both iewes and gentiles are under sin , &c. read on the scripture , and you may evidently see , that neither this , nor any part of gods word , is spoken to or of infants . answ. this is not the apostles meaning : for he sayth not they haue weake natures , but that all haue sinned , and through the offence of one many are dead , many were made sinners ; rom. 5 12.15.19 . which is more then weaknesse of nature , and pronenesse to sin . secondly , in rom. 8.3 . it is sayd , that it ( the law ) is weake through the fl●sh , and so cannot saue any man : vvhich vvords these men vvrest , as if it meant adams children vveak . which thing though it be true , yet is it not that which is spoken of in rom. 8.3 . thirdly , vvhen the apostle sayth in rom. 7.9 . that he was aliue without the law : this contradicteth ( according to their sense ) the other scripture , in rom. 5 12. that all haue sinned , and are dead . the apostle in rom. 5. speaketh of things as they are ; in rom. 7.9 , he speaketh of things as they seemed to be , but vvere not indeed . paul vvas aliue in his owne conceit , thinking himselfe able to keep the law , as naturall men doe suppose they can . but vvhen the commandement came ( to wit unto his knowledge and conscience , ) then sin revived and he died . how could this be : seeing the commandement is holy , just and good , v. 12 he telleth us in 13 v. that sinne wrought death in him by that which was good . so then he vvas sinfull ( though he knew it not ) before the commandement came ; sinfull by nature ; but not discerning this his wofull state , the law vvas given to shew it him ; for by the law commeth the knowledge of sinne , rom. 3.20 . againe , saying in rom. 7 , 11 , that sinne took occasion by the commandement , deceived him and slew him : he plainly acknowledgeth sin to haue been in him , before the commandement came : this hee confirmeth in v. 14. saying , the law is spirituall , but i am carnall , sold under sinne : whereupon he applieth the evills vvhich he did , to si●ne dwelling in him , v. 17.20 . and this inhabiting or indwelling sinne , is that originall sinne vvhereof we treat ; vvhich paul for a vvhile could not discerne to be in him ( as all naturall men discern it not , but count it an idle terme , and think there is no such thing ) till by the law he came to discerne it and to lament it . fourthly , it is here to be observed how the anabaptists ●grant , all men haue weake natures , and cannot obey and liue , but sin and dye . how commeth this to passe ? by adams sinne , say they . behold here how they thwart their own grounds . they impose a necessitie upon all men which ( they think ) are born innocents , to sin . they cannot but sin , they must needs dye : and this not through their owne default at all , but by adams . if we should thus teach , what outcries would they make after us ! how is it they here forget the scriptures by themselues forealleaged , the son shall not beare the iniquitie of the father , ezek. 18.20 . is not this a heavy burden which the sonns beare , that their father sinning , and they being innocent , are so weakned of god , that they cannot but sin , they cannot but dye ? doth god create an innocent man , and giue him charge to doe that vvhich is unpossible for the man to doe , and threaten death unto him for not doing it ? we abhorre such doctrine as quite overthrowing gods justice . when he made adam innocent , he gaue him no law , but that vvhich was possible & easie for him to do , and to haue cōtinued in doing it , if he had would . his justice requireth him to doe the like to all his innocent creatures . wherfore if these men come not to acknowledge with the apostle ( and with us ) originall sinne and death for sin to be in adams seed , that his fall and disobedience was the fall of us all , by imputation and by infection , ( as a serpent brings forth but a serpent ) & that so being sinners in him , we haue lost our abilitie to do good , by gods just judgment , & are sold under sinne : if they come not ( i say ) unto this , they will bee open enemies to the iustice of god , and make the judge of all the world not to doe equitie . 5. finally , vvheras they say , that neither this nor any part of gods word is spoken to or of infants : they impudently avouch untruth . the apostle in rom. 5.14 . speaketh of them which sinned after the similitude of adams transgression , and yet death reigned over them also . what sin can this be but originall sin vvherin infants are born , and for vvhich many infants dye . for vvhen they passe from infancie and come to understanstanding , they sin actually as adam did . to sin the same sin they cannot , for all being shut out of paradice , they cannot eat of the forbidden tree , though they vvould . neither doth the apostle speak of that same sin , but of sinning after the similitude of adams transgression : so it meaneth actuall sin , like adams . now all sin , is either originall or actuall . if then death reigneth ouer them which sinne not actually , as adam did , it must needs reigne over them which sin originally onely in adam : and these be infants . for the anabaptists grant , that when they come to discretion , they sinne ( and cannot but sinne ) actually . and thus their next vvords also are refuted , vvhen they say , infants are under no law , therefore transgression cannot be imputed unto them , rom. 4.15 . the contrary is thus proved : infants haue transgression imputed unto them , and death for transgression , as the apostle sheweth in rom. 5. therfore they are under some law : though not under moses law vvhich punisheth actuall transgressors , yet under adams law ( in vvhose loynes they vvere and sinned ) for vvhich they are punished even vvith death it selfe . in their next vvords , they condemne themselues and all their vain reasoning , confessing , that adam fell from the estate wherein hee was , and in him all mankind . this is very true , and overthroweth their heresie . for adams fall , as the apostle describeth it , vvas sin , offence , transgression , disobedience , judgement ( or guiltinesse ) to death , and condemnation : rom. 5.12 . — 19. now all mankind fell in him , as paul teacheth , and these enemies grant : therfore all mankind is in sin , offence , transgression , &c. unto death and condemnation . of the remedy for the sin of all ( vvherof they next speake ) we grant that is both for infants and old sinners , by grace in christ. but these are two severall questions : and here we treat of sinne onely and the merit of it . of gods grace we haue spoken otherwhere . they proceed and say , that infants whom christ so often accounteth innocents , mat. 18.3 , 4 , & 19.14 . are freed from the law , and so sin is dead in them : but when the commandement comes , then they die in sinnes and transgressions , &c. rom. 7.8 . eph. 2.1 . answ. innocents may be so called in sundry respects : 1 when in them there is no sin at all ; thus adam in his creation vvas innocent . 2. when though they be sinners , yet they are not guiltie of such sins as men lay to their charge , exod. 23.7 . 2. sam. 3.28 . ier. 2.34 . 3. when they are cleare of actuall sinnes : and thus infants may be called innocents , psal. 106 38 that christ calleth infants innocents in the first sence , i deny : the scripture also denieth them so to be , i●b . 15.14 , & 25.4 , ioh. 3.3.6 . eph. 2.3 . i find not in the pla●es which they quote , that christ called infants innocents : how b● it somtime he calleth his disciples innocents ( or guiltlesse ) mat ▪ 12.7 . of whom yet these men ( i suppose ) will not say , they were without all sinne . that infants are freed from the law given to adam , is denied and disproved by rom. 5. for in adam they sinned and died . that sin is dead in them is also disproved : rather they are dead in sinne , till they be revived by christ , eph. 2.1.3 . infants ( say they ) haue done neither good nor evil in the fl●sh therefore infants sh●ll not appeare before christ , they shall receiue no ju●gement , 2. cor. 5.10 . r●v . 20 , 12.13 . answ. how boldly doe these men abuse the s●riptures ▪ in 2. cor. 5.10 . paul s●yth , we must all appeare before the ju●gment seat of christ. rev. 20.12 . it is sayd , i saw the dead small & great stand before god. nay , say these adversaries , not infants . their reason , because infants haue done neither good nor evill in the flesh , is an errour before refuted : for though they haue not done good or evill actually , as older people ; yet in the first adam they haue done evill ; and in the second adam ( christ ) they haue done well . against davids confession of his birth sin in psal. 51. they thus dispute . if david confesse unto god his own sin , then he desireth him in mercie to behold whereof he was made , as psalm . 103.14 . of dust , weake flesh , unable to resist the tempter : through which weaknesse he was overcome in these sinnes : and thus weak flesh is called sinfull flesh , ( in which christ came ) rom. 8.1 . christ is sayd to be made sin , 2. cor. 5.21 . not that he was a sinner : no more david , confessing he was conceived in sinne , doth proue that by conception and birth he was a transgressor . answ. they pervert both davids words and meaning . hee speaketh of sinne and iniquitie : they speake of weaknesse onely , vvhereby he fell into sinne . what scripture can be so plaine , that may not be wrested with such wicked glosses . against vveaknesse wee pray for aid and strength to resist evill : against sinne wee pray for mercie and forgiuenesse : and for this david prayeth in psal. 51. secondly , it is another abuse of scripture that they say , weake flesh is called sinfull fl●sh , in which christ came , rom. 8.1 . where first they make david no more a sinner at his birth , then christ himselfe ; contrarie to the whole tenour of this psalme , and contrary to rom. 5. as is before shewed . then they falsifie the text in rom. 8.1.3 . for the weaknesse there spoken of is in the law , it was weake through the flesh , and so not able to saue sinners . thirdly , by flesh there paul meaneth not the substance of flesh , for that vveakneth not the law , nor hindereth mans salvation : it is the good creature of god , as is the soule or spirit : but hee meaneth by flesh , our corrupt sinfull state in soule and body : for he sayth in verse 8. they that are in the flesh cannot please god. if flesh meane our bodily substance , then no man living in the body can please god : not the prophets , not the apostles , no nor christ himselfe , for he lived in our flesh , in our humame nature , and the apostle should speake untruly in the ninth verse , yee are not in the fl●sh . wherefore flesh in rom. 8. signifieth our unregenerate state , as in genes . 6.3 . iohn 3.6 . rom. 7.18 . & 8.5.9 . fourthly , it is another falsification when they say , sinfull flesh in which christ came : the scripture sayth not in sinfull flesh , but in the likenesse of sinfull flesh . rom. 8.3 . fiftly , weaknesse or infirmitie , as it meaneth not sin , but affliction , such christ had : such , the apostle tooke pleasure , 2 cor. 12 , 10 , but infirmity as it meaneth sin , christ had not : he is opposed herein to the priests of the law , vvhich had infirmity or vveakenesse , heb. 7 , 27 , 28 , and 4 , 15 , but david in psal. 51 , confesseth such infirmity ( if they vvill haue it so called ) as vvas sinne and iniquity ; vvhich proveth he was a transgressor from the womb , and not vvithout sin as vvas christ. 6 christ is said to be made sin for us , 2 cor. 5 , 21 , these words for us the adversaries baulk and omit . david vvas not made sinne for us , or for any : but vvas himselfe conceived in sinne . christ being himselfe no sinner , yet vvas hee made sin , that is a sin●offering for us , to purge us , and make us the righteousnesse of god in him ; for the sin-offering vvas usually called sin in the law , lev. 4 , 3 , 8 , 14 , 20 , 24 , &c. the apostle expoundeth it for sin , meaning a sacrifice for sin , heb. 10 , 6 , from psal. 40 , thus christ vvas a sinne , that is a sacrifice for sinne : but david vvas not so . therefore these places speake not of sinne in one and the same sense , but in the contrarie . david complaineth of his ovvn sinne and guiltinesse : paul speaketh of christ his purging david and us all from sinne and guiltinesse , by being made a sinne offering for us . their former answer being so apparantly against the truth , that david acknowledging sinne , they vvill haue it no sinne , but weaknesse , they devise to darken the light with an other cloud ; as if david spake not of his own estate , but his mothers : and then ( say they ) it is the curse or punishment for sinne laid upon her , gen. 3 , 16 , where the very words agree with these of davids &c. and it is frequent in scripture to call punishment for sinne by the name of sinne , &c. and it is neither davids sinne nor his mothers that hee heere confesseth , to speake properly , but his mothers punishment . answ. as a bird in the net , so the more they striue , the more they are intangled . first , the whole scope of the psalme is , that david might finde mercie with the lord for his owne sinnes , as any that readeth it may see . and that in supplicating to god for grace before and after , he should here insert a complaint of his mothers punishment , is without any colour of truth . but this is the meaning , and suteable to his other words , that lamenting his actuall transgressions , he bewaileth the evill fountaine whence they flowed , to weet , his natiue corruption , which brought forth these ugly trespasses . secondly , to let passe how they call gods fatherly chastisement , a curse or punishment ; they here againe belye the scripture , in saying , that the very words in gen. 3.16 , agree with these of davids . for neither the word sin , nor iniquitie , ( both which david useth in psa. 51 , ) are to be found in gen. 3 16 , that od●gos brow may seem to be of brasse , vvho sh●m●th not so often and openly to falsifie the text . thirdly , it is true that sin and iniquity doe often improperly meane punishment : but the proper meaning for fault and guiltinesse is most frequent : and wh●n it signifieth punishment , the context manifesteth ▪ which it doth not here at all : but david before and after bewayleth his sinnes properly . n●ither is heere the phrase of bearing sinne and iniquity , which is m●st usuall when pun●shment is meant : but of being brought forth in iniquity , and conceived in sinne ; and they sh●w not a●y o●e place of scripture vvhere such a phrase signifieth punishment . fourthly , as neither sin nor iniquity are used in gen. 3 , 16 , so the word conception there agreeth not , but differeth from the conceiving that david speaketh of in psal 51 , and the difference of the words plainly discovereth these mens ignorance and errour . for in gen. 3 , 16 , seron is conception with sorrow , during the time that the mother goeth with child : but in psal. 51. jacham signifieth conceiving with pleasure ; for the vvord properly signifieth to be warme or inflamed vvith desire , as in the act of generation , not of men onely , but of cattell also , as in gen. 30 , 38 , 39 , 41. now nature both of man and beast teacheth all , that such conceiving is with delight , not with paine , and therefore david using such a vvord vvhen he telleth how his mother conceived him , cannot ( in any reasonable mans understanding ) mean his mothers corporall paines or punis●ment , as these corrupters of the scripture doe feigne . they proceed and say , that david did not sinne in being conceived and borne : the soule is the subject of sinne , for from the soule or heart commeth wickednesse , mat. 15 , 19. the soule comes from god , the matter of the body from the parents : the soule is very good comming from god , the body hath not sinned till it be infected with the soule by transgression of a law : and seeing th●y ●ffirme that the very matter or substance whereof david was made was sinne , and that this is it he confessoth in psal. 51 , obserue what will follow ●f this their dream . the matter wherof all th● sonnes of adam are made is sinne : but chr●st , one of the sonnes of adam after the fl●sh was made of that matter ; therefore the matter or su●stance of christs body was sinne . if it be wicked , to say christ was a sinner because he was conceived of his mothers su●stance , as it is : so it is no lesse wicked to say , david was a sinner because he was conceived of his mothers substance : seeing the substance of both the mothers was one and the same . answ. it is even a vvonder to b●hold how these men pervert , erre and slander , as if they had sold themselues to vvorke iniquity . we teach not , ( as the perversly speake ) that david sinned in being conceived and borne ; for these being the workes of god and nature , are good . but david was a sinner , because hee was conceived and borne in sin , as himselfe confesseth . 2 they erre , in saying , the soule is the subject of sinne : for neither the soule alone , nor the body alone , but the vvhole man ( vvhich differeth from both , and consisteth of both , ) he is the subject of sinne . neither doth the body vvithout the soule , nor the soule without the body commit sinne : but the man vvhiles the soule is in the body , sinneth , 2 cor. 5 , 10 and as the soule vvas not created but in the body , zach. 12 , 1 , so vvhen it departeth from the body , it sinneth no more , but goeth for judgement , heb. 9 , 27 , eccles. 9 , 5 , 6 , 10. 3 whereas they alledge , that wickedness● is from the heart , mat. 15 , 19 , it is spoken of living men consisting of soule and body : madnesse ( as salomon saith ) is in their heart while they liue , and after that ( they goe ) to the dead ; eccles 9 , 3. and vvhere they say , the soule comes from god , the matter of the body from the parents ; they lay not down the truth fully . for though the soule is created of god , and is not materially from the parents as the body ; yet the parents giue occasion to infuse the soule , ( for vvithout corporall generation no soule is created , ) and so the soule may in some sort be said to haue the beginning from adam , though not of any matter from him . the essence of is of god ; the subsistance of it is from the parents , from vvhom it hath the manner of subsisting in the body . 4 though the soule as it is created of god is very good , ( as the body also respected naturally is good ) yet they erre in saying , the body sinneth not till it be infe●ted with the soule by transgression of a law ; whereby they meane actuall transgression after it knowes the law . for first , it is not the body , but the man ( of body and soule ) that sinneth as before is shewed . secondly , the body is not infected vvith the soule , but both body and soule are infected with sinne , to wit , that inbred and inhabiting sin vvhich came from adam , as before is proved from rom. 5. and this sinne man hath , both by imputation and inherence , before he actually transgresseth the law , rom. 5.14 , psal. 51 , for that which is borne of the flesh is fl●sh , ioh. 3.6.5 . they notoriously sl●nder us , that we should affirme the very matter or substance vvherof david vvas made , to be sin : wee affirme no such thing . the matter or substance we say is good , as every creature of god is . sinne is an evill accident cleaving to the substance , to the body and soule of man. of like falshood it is , that we should affirme david to confesse in psal , 51. that the substance vvhereof he vvas made vvas sin . neither david nor we ever so spake . so the argument vvhich by consequence they frame touching the substance of christs body , that it should be sin , is frivolous , collected from a fict●on of their idle heads . for if no mans substance be sinne ( as we firmly hold ) much lesse christs . after this , they cast a stumbling block in the vvay , and vvould haue us shew how infants that haue sinned , and are under condemnation of hell , can be reconciled to god but onely by faith in christ iesus : and if they cannot but by repentance and faith , then are they all left under condemnation , not for any law that th●y haue broken , but for their father adams sinne . answ. that all haue sinned , and are under condemnation , is proved by the apostle , rom. 5 , 12 , 18 , how infants can be reconciled to god , he also teacheth , namely through the gift by grace , by one man iesus christ , rom. 5 , 15 , 18. the manner if it be shewed , i feare these men vvill not receiue it : for they that haue so kicked against the pricks touching all mens fall and sinne in adam ; how should they receiue the doctrine of restauration by christ. howbeit i will indevour to shew it , if it doe no good to them , it may to others . 1 the faith and repentance vvhich they require in infants , namely actuall , is not to be found : as such actuall sinnes are not found in them , as are in older men . the one of these exemplifieth the other , as the first adam figured the second , rom. 5 , 14. by the first adam vve haue sin , rom. 5 , 12 , offence , v. 15 , disobedience , v. 19 , ●udgement , v. 16 , death , v. 14 , condemnation , v. 16. by the second adam ( christ ) we haue grace , & the gift by grace , v. 15 , the gift of righteousnesse , v. 17 , the free gift to justification , v. 16 , even to justification of life , v 18. by the first adam vve haue three evils , 1 imputation of his sin : 2 corruption of our nature : 3 guiltinesse of death temporary and eternall . by the second adam vve haue three opposite good things ; 1 imputation of his righteousnesse , 2 regeneration ( or renewing ) of our nature , 3 and deliverance from death temporary and eternall . as the corruption or viciousnesse that vve haue by adam , is in the bud or spring , in the beginning ( not in the full growth , ) and inclineth us to all actuall sinnes : so the regeneration we haue by christ , is in the spring and beginnings thereof vvhen we ●re infants , and inclineth us to actuall faith and obedience . and thus repentance and faith are in christian infants in their bud or beginning , inclinatiuely : even as impenitencie and unbeliefe are in adams infants , in their beginning , and by inclination . if any man aske vvith nicodemus , how can these things be ? let him consider , that as he knoweth not the way of the winde , or of the spirit , or how the bones doe grow in the womb of her that is with child , even so he knoweth not the workes of god , who maketh all ; iob. 3 , eccles. 11 , 5. lastly , to the many examples of gods judgements upon infants , as at noes floud , the burning of sodom and gomorrah , &c. they answer , though they had bodily death for the sinnes of their parents ; yet they perished not with the wicked in hell . for of this ( bodily death ) other unreasonable creatures , as well as infants , haue alwayes had their portions . all fl●sh must die , and death is losse to none but to the wick●d : to the godly and innocent , death and all afflictions of this life , are not worthy of the glory that sh●ll be shewed . answ. 1 in that they grant , infants haue bodily death for their parents sinnes , they contradict their own plea before from ezek. 18 ▪ 20 , the soule that sinneth it shall die : the sonne shall not beare the iniquity of the father &c. for there the prophet speaketh even of bodily death and miseries in this world , vvhereof the iewes complained . and unlesse they confess● , that infants are sinners in their parents , they cannot maintaine the justice of god for killing infants , and that oftentimes with strange and horrible deaths . and if they grant that infants are sinners , they cannot with any truth deny but hell is their due , unlesse they be redeemed by christ. and by infants death , we certainly conclude that they are sinners , from the apostles ground in rom. 5 , 12 , 14 , & 6 , 23. and that for their sinne they may and shall be cast into hell ( unlesse christ saue them ) is evident by christs doctrine , in ioh. 3 , 3 , except a man bee borne againe , he cannot see the kingdome of god. and that infants are there implyed , is plaine , because an infant is borne a man , as christ speaketh ioh 16 , 21 , and being borne a sinner , psal. 51 , rom. 5 , must be borne againe of the spirit , or else shall not see the kingdome of god. if it see not gods kingdome , it shall see the divels prison ; for a limbus or third place will no vvhere be found . and how these men can exempt wicked infants from hell , otherwise then by their own fansies i know not : ●he apostles taught no such doctrine , vvhen vvithout exception of infants , they call the old world that perished , the world of the ungodly , 2 pet. 2 , 5 , and reckon none saved but noe and his house , heb. 11 , 7 , 1 pet. 3 ▪ 20 , 21 , and tell us that sodom , gomorrha , and the cities about them , are set forth for an example , suffring the vengeance of eternall fire , iude v ▪ 7. but these presumptuous men vvill controll the judgements of god , and tell us that which no prophet or apostle ever taught , that all the infants in those cities suffer no such vengeance : yea , though god himselfe promised that if but ten righteous had been found in sodom ( wherein vvere many times ten infants ) he vvould not haue destroy●d the citie for tennes sake , gen. 18 , 32. 2 the reason vvhich they vvould ground upon , because other unreasonable creatures as vvell as infants haue alwayes had their portions in bodily death ; this reason is brutish , and beseemeth not men . for no unreasonable creature is a sinner , as all men in adam are sinners : no unreasonable creature hath a soule immortall infused of god , as all mankind hath : no bruit beast shall be raised from the dead , as all men shall , both old and yong , to life or death eternall . and vvhen a beast dyeth it hath an end both of vvelfare and misery , so hath none of adams children . what comparison then is there between men and beasts ? where they say , death is losse to none but to the wicked ; it is true . and hereupon it followeth that seeing infants are wicked , ( as is formerly proved ) untill they be made righteous by christ , and borne againe ; death is a losse unto them ; and a gaine to those onely ( whether old or yong ) which are made partakers of the grace and gift of righteousnesse , by one iesus christ , rom. 5 , 12 , — 17. of baptizing infants . against baptising of infants the adversaries first lay this ground , baptisme perteyneth onely to them that declare their repentance and faith to those disciples of chri●t that baptise them . this appeareth by iohn baptists doctrine and practice , mar. 1 , 4 , mat. 3 , 6 , and christs disciples , joh. 4 , 1 & 3 22 , by christs commission for all nations , mat , 28 , 19 , mar. 16.16 , by the apostles practise , act. 2 , 38 , 41 & 8 , 12 , 36 &c. answ. that baptisme pertaineth to such as declare their repentance and faith , is true ; and the scriptures alledged proue it . but that it pertaineth to such onely , is untrue : and none of the scriptures vvhich they bring , doe so teach the infants of the church , vvhich cannot declare repentance or faith , are also to be baptized , as after shall be manifested . that the practise taught by the foresaid scriptures , is to be perpetuall ; we grant : and they needed not haue taken paines to proue it . infants ( say they ) may not be baptized , because there is neither commandement , example , nor true consequence for it , in all christs perfect testament , &c. answ , this we deny : commandement there is for it in math. 28 , and mark 16 , & necessary consequences from many scriptures confirme it ; as shall be proved . baptisme ( they say ) is in that a good conscience maketh request unto god , 1 pet. 3.21 , it is of repentance for remission of sinnes , mar. 1 . ●● the washing of the new birth , tit. 3 , 5 &c. if it cannot be proved by the scriptures that infants haue their hearts sprinkled from an evill conscience , haue repentance , faith &c. they ought not to be baptized . answ. their argument hath onely a shew , no substance of truth . for first a man might frame as good a reason thus : circumcision is not that which is outward in the fl●sh , but that of the heart , in the spirit , rom. 2 , 28 , 29 , it is the putting off of the body of the sinnes of the flesh , coloss. 2.11 , it sealeth the righteousnese of faith which they haue , rom. 4.11 , and the circumcising of the fo●-skinne of the heart , deut. 10 16 , to loue the lord &c. deut. 30.6 . now if it cannot be proved by scripture that infants haue the l●ue of god in their hearts , the righteousnes of faith , the putting of of the body of sin &c. they may not be circumcised , and the●r circumcision is nothing . if this be not a good argument to keep children from circumcision , the other is no better to keep th●m from baptisme . secondly , christian infants haue the graces they speak of , repentance , faith , regeneration &c , though not actually , or by way of declaration to others ; yet they haue through the worke of the spirit , the seed and beginning of faith , virtually and by vvay of inclination ; so that they are not wholly d●stitute of faith , regeneration &c. though it be a thing hid and unknown unto us after vvhat manner the lord vvorketh these in them , eccles. 11 , 5. which i further proue thus . if infants naturally are some vvayes capable of adams sinne , and so of unbeleefe , disobedience , transgression &c. then christian infants supernaturally and by grace , are some wayes capable of christs righteousnes , and so of faith , obedience , sanctification &c. but infants are capable of the former evils by adam : therefore they are capable of the latter good things by christ. that they are capable of the former , is before proved ( vvhere vve treated of originall sin ) by rom 5 , psal. 5 1 , ioh. 3 , and many scriptures . the consequence , that therefore they are capable of the latter also , ●o wit of christian graces , is thus manifested . 1 because the first adam was a figure of the second adam christ , so that as the sinne of the first adam , his fault , disobedience , and death for it came on all his children , both by imputation and infection or corruption of nature : so the righteousnesse and obedience of christ commeth on all his children , both by imputation and renewing of nature , unto life and salvation , as the apostle compareth them , rom. 5.12.15.16.17.18.19.21 . 2 because infants being by adam sinners , children of vvrath &c. must be borne againe of the spirits , or else they cannot see the kingdom of god , ioh. 3 , 3.5.6 . but the christian infants dying in infancie shall see the kingdom of god , and not be damned ( as the adversaries grant ) therefore by christs doctrine they are borne again of the spirit : and so must needs in some measure haue repentance , faith , holines , vvithout which there is no regeneration . again , that infants haue the faith and loue of god in them , and regeneration in their measure is thus proved . they to vvhom god giveth the signe and seale of righteousnesse by faith , and of regeneration , they haue faith and regeneration : for god giveth no lying signe , he sealeth no vaine or false covenants . but god gaue to infants circumcision , vvhich vvas the signe an●●ale of the righteousnesse of faith and regeneration , gen ▪ 17.12 , rom. 4.11 ▪ & 2.28.29 , coloss. 2.11 . therefore infants had ( & consequ●ntly now haue ) fai●h & regeneration , though not in the crop or ha●vest by de●laration , yet in the bud and beginnings of all christian graces . they that deny this reason , must either make god th● author of a lying signe and seale of the covenant to abraham and ●is infants : or they must hold that infants had those graces then , b●t not now : both vvhich are wicked and absurd to affirme . or t●ey must say , that circumcision vvas not the signe and seale of the righteousnes of faith , and then they openly contradict the scripture , rom. 4.11 . moreover , as the apostle in rom. 5 , compareth our naturall estate in adam , and our spirituall estate in christ , so may vvee in this case . if wee cannot justly obj●ct against gods vvorke in nature , but doe beleeue that our inf●nts are reasonable creatures , and are borne not bruit beasts but men , though actually they can manifest no reason or understanding more then beasts , ( yea a yong lamb knoweth and discerneth h●s damne sooner then an infant knoweth his mother : ) then nei●her can we justly object against gods vvorke in grace , but are to beleeue that our infants are sanctified creatures , and are borne beleevers not infidels , though outwardly they can manifest no faith or sanctification unto us . and , why should it be thought incredible that god should worke faith in infants ? if because we know not or perceiue not how it can be : let us consider , that wee know not the way of our naturall birth , and other earthly things eccles. 11 5. ioh. 3 , 8 , how then can we know heavenly things ? if we make question of the power of god ; nothing is unpossible with h●m . hee made all things of nothing ; he can make the dumb beast speake with mans voyce , numb . 22 , hee can make the babe in the moth●rs wombe , to be aff●cted and leape for joy , at the voice of vvords spoken to the mother , luk. 1.44 , and can he not also work grace , faith , holynesse in infants ? hath satan power by sin to inf●ct and corrupt infants ( as is before proved , ) and shall nor god haue power to cleanse from corruption , and make them holy ? if we make doubt of the will of god herein , behold we haue his promises to restore our losses in adam , by his graces in christ , as he sh●weth in rom ▪ 5 , that he will circumcise our heart , and the heart of our seed to loue him , deu. 30 6 , we haue the seale of his promise , in giving circumcision to infants , to signifie and seale the righteousnesse of faith , rom. 4.11 , gen. 17. and we haue assurance of all his promises , and of that to abraham & his seed in particular , to be confirmed unto us ( not abrogated or lessened ) by christ , 2 cor. 1.20 , luk. 1.72.73 &c. gal. 3.14 &c. wherefore they are but a faithlesse and crooked generation , that notwithstanding all that god h●th spoken and done in this kinde , doe deny this grace of christ to the infants of his people , and the seale or confirmation of this grace by baptisme now , as it was by circumcision of old . but they proceed to plead against the truth thus , regeneration is a turning from sin to god , rev. 6.11 . 1 thes. 1.9 . tit ▪ 4.5 repentance is a sight and knowing of sin by the law a confessing and sorrow for sin , &c. fai●h is th● ground of things hoped for , &c. heb. 11.1 . and is accompa-with obedience , iam. 2. let them either now proue , that infants are turned from sin , see , know , confesse and sorrow for it , beleeue the promises of god , &c. or they say nothing . answ. they reason ignorantly and perversly , not onely against the light of gods word , but of nature . as if some brutish person should plead thus . a man is a living creature that hath a reasonable soule ; and the proper affections of a man as he is a man , are the facultie of understanding , of thinking , capablenesse of learning , of remembring , facultie of reasoning , of judging and discerning true and false , good and evill , of approving and improving , of willing & nilling , of speaking , of numbring , &c. now let them which affirme that infants are borne men ( as christ doth in ioh. 16.21 . ) proue that infants doe understand , do think , remember , judge , discerne good and evill , approue , will , speak , &c. or else they say nothing . were not such a disputer worthy to be laughed and hissed at ? who requireth the actuall use and manifestation of humane affections and faculties in infants ; vvhich are in them but potentially & in the seed and beginning : and because th●y cannot declare these things by their workes , therefore he denieth them to be of the generation of mankind , or borne men into the vvorld : or that they haue the faculties of men at all in them any manner of vvay ? even such is the argumentation of these erroneous spirits against the truth of religion . for as before they reasoned against the sin , transgression , and condemnation of infants , ( contrary to pauls doctrine in rom. 5 ) because infants actually understand not the law , nor transgresse against it ; and will not consider how they are sinners originally in adam : so now also they reason against the grace of christ in infants , and his work of regeneration in them ; because they cannot outwardly manifest the effects of regeneration or fruits of faith , ( such as the scriptures that they allege do require in older persons ) & wil not understand that these graces are in them through christ and his spirit , but in the beginnings onely ( as i haue formerly proved ) and are not in them as in those of full age , who by reason of use haue their sences exercised to discerne both good and evill . and here i desire to know of the anabaptists in their next vvritings about these matters ; first when they thinke that children ( vvho in their opinion are borne without a●y sin ) begin to be sinners , vvhether at 2.3.5.7 . or other yeares : and vvhen they can justly reproue a child for sin , if it shew in vvord , deed , or gesture any thing contrary to the law of god , as if it sweare , curse , lye , disobey parents , take anothers goods , be froward , angry , or the lik● . yea let any of them tell me ( if he can ) vvhen he himselfe first fell from his innocencie and became a sinner , being none before ; by what act or transgression of what commandement . it is strange that an innocent man should fall from his innocencie , and not know when and how . secondly let them say , vvhether every child so soon as it beginneth to be a sinner , hath not remedy for the sinne by christ ; and so whether it it be not capable of repentance , faith , regeneration , &c. and consequently of baptisme , so soone as it is a sinner . thirdly , seeing they insist so much on the perf●ction of the ordinances of the new testament , as of the old , ( which thing i willingly grant ) i desire to know whether ( as god appointed the eight day for the circumcising of a child after it was borne , ) christ hath appoynted any day , moneth or yeare for a child to be baptised after it is borne . if they say none , but vvhen the child can manifest repentance and faith : then vvhat manifestation hath christ prescribed , vvhether if the child say it repenteth him , & he beleeveth , it is ynough , or what rules and ordinances christ hath given , by vvhich vve may certainly know that now ( and not before or after ) a child is to receiue baptisme , as a repentant and beleeving sinner : and let them tell us at what age of their children they or any of them hath first baptised his child unto remission of si●s . these things are needfull to be known , that we may vvalke by rule ; and being not yet signified ( to my knowledge ) in any of their writings , i desire for my information , and for the better clearing of these controversies , that they vvould set down their doctrine touching these poynts . for it is required of all parents to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the lord , eph. 6.4 . this they cannot doe aright , unlesse they know vvhen first they begin to sin , and consequently vvhen first they begin to beleeue . if they blame a child for sinne vvhiles it is an innocent , they commit iniquitie : if they keep a child from christ and christian baptisme vvhen it is a repentant & beleeving sinner ( which may be so soon as it is a sinner ) they vvrong their child most sinfully , to condemne that vvhich christ justifieth . these things are vvorthy of serious consideration both in respect of our childrens estate , and of our owne . and now ere i proceed further to answer their cavils , i will shew two commandements for the baptising of infants : the one given of old to our fathers , the other given by christ. 1. that vvhich vvas once commanded of god , and never by him called back , is now still to be done ; as it is vvritten , what thing soever i command you , obserue to doe it , deut. 12.32 . but god commanded the outward seale of his covenant of grace to be given to the infants of his people , as in gen. 17.12.13 . he that is eight dayes old shall be circumcised among you , &c. and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant . and this commandement touching the substance of it , and outward sealing of the covenant , hath never by him been abrogated . therefore it is still to bee continued , and our infants ( by vertue of that commandement ) are to haue the seale of gods covenant . the common objection that this proofe is not from christs testament , but from moses writings , is of no weight . for moses wrote of christ , ioh. 5.46 . the apostles sayd none other things then those which the prophets and moses did s●y should come , act. 26.22 . christ came not to destroy the law or the prophets , but to fulfill . math. 5.17 . paul proveth our justification by faith in christ from abrahams example written by moses , as vvritten not for his sake alone , but for us , rom. 4.3 — 24 ▪ therefore the example of abrahams infants circumcised , is vvrit●en for us also . to manifest this reason more fully , i lay downe these particulars , 1. that the covenant then made with abraham vvas the covenant of the gospell , which we now haue . 2 that circumcision the seale of the covenant then , and baptisme the seale of the couenant now , are one and the same in substance . the first is proved thus , paul sayth , the scripture foreseeing that god would justifie the heathen through faith , preached before the gospell unto abraham , in thee shall all nations be blessed , gal. 3.8 . aga●ne , vvhen circumcision was instituted , the covenant was , thou shalt be a father of many nations , &c. gen. 17.4.5 . this promise ( as belonging to the faith of christ ) is applied to our state under the gospell , rom. 4.13.16.17 . and is by paul there opposed to the law. moreover the covenant vvith abraham vvas , that the lord vvould be a god to him and to his seed after him , gen. 17 ▪ 7. this promise implieth blessednesse to him and them ; for blessed is the nation whose god is the lord , psal. 33.12 . and this blessednesse commeth on none by the law , rom. 4.15 . gal. 3.10.11.12 . and that he should be a god unto us , and we his people , is the summe of the gospell , heb. 8 ▪ 10 2. cor. 6.16 . reu. 21.3 . the difference between the fathers and us , is , that they had the gospell in promise ; wee haue the same gospell in performance , luk. 1.69.70 , 72.73 . &c. act. 13.32.33 . & 26 6. they beleeved in christ that vvas to come ; we beleeue in christ vvho is come : their faith and ours is one in substance , heb. 11. gal. 3.9 . that circumcision and baptisme are also one in substance ( though differing in outward signe ) is thus manifested . circumcision was the signe of faith and holines , rom. 4.11 . & 2.29 . col. 2.11 deut. 10 ▪ 16. baptisme is the signe of faith and holinesse , act. 8.37.38 ▪ rom. 6.3.4 ▪ &c. circumcision was the first signe and seale of entring into the covenant : baptisme is so now . we now being buried with christ in baptisme , are sayd to be circumcised in him , coloss. 2.11.12 . vvhich plainly manifesteth them to bee one and the same : even as their other sacramentall signes , are sayd to be the same that we now haue , in respect of the things signified , 1. cor. 10.1.2.3.4 . 1 cor. 5.7.8 . forasmuch then as the covenant vvith abraha● and with us , and the seale of the covenant then and now , are one in substance : it followeth , that the commandement then to giue infants the seale of the covenant , being never repealed , bindeth us to giue them the seale of the covenant at this day . the exceptions vvhich the adversaries make of the difference between circumcision and baptisme , shall be answered after in their place . 2 the second commandement for baptising of infants , is in mark. 16.15 . goe preach the gospell to every creature ; he that beleeveth and is baptised , shall be saved . math. 28.19 . go teach all nations , baptising them , &c. in this commission of christ are two things , the preaching of the gospell to every creature , to all nations ; and the sealing of the same by baptisme . the gospell belonged to infants , & they are necessarily implied in the first : therefore baptisme belonged to infants , and they are as necessarily implied in the later . christ biddeth them proclaime or preach the gospell : but vvhat the gospell is , is not here declared , we must gather it from other scriptures . the gospel ( or evangelie ) is the glad tidings or joyfull declaration that the promise vvhich vvas made unto the fathers , god hath fulfillled the same unto us their children : the promise , ( i say ) concerning christ , and the redemption of the vvorld by him , as these scriptures teach , act. 13.32.33 . luk. 1.54.55.69.70.71.72.73 . &c. act. 2.38.39 . & 26.22.23 . luk. 4.18 — 21. so the gospell ( which is the good tidings of the fulfilling of the promise ) is as large as the promise vvas : vvhereupon , not in the forementioned scriptures onely , but in many other places , the apostles referre the gospell to the promise ( or promises ) made of old , as , it is of faith , that it might be by grace ; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed : rom. 4.16 . and now we , brethren , as isaak was , are the children of promise , gal. 4.28 . and , christ was a minister of the circumcision , for the truth of god , to confirme the promises ( made ) unto the fathers : and that the gentiles might glorifie god for mercie , rom. 15.8.9 . and , that the promise by faith of iesus christ , might bee given to them that beleeve , gal. 3.22 . and , paul an apostle , &c. according to the promise of life , which is in christ iesus , 2. tim. 1.1 . and many the like . not in generall onely , but the particular promises at severall times , are shewed to be accomplished in the gospell ; as the promise to adam , rom. 16 20. from gen. 3.15 . to abraham , luk. 1.55.73 . rom. 4.16.17.18 . to david , luk. 1.69.70 . act. 2 ▪ 30 31. to israel by moses , samuel , and other prophets , act. 3.22.24 ▪ 25 luk. 1.70 . so that all the promises of god are yea and amen in christ , 2. cor. 1.20 . and for the poynt in controversie , the promise of grace and salvation to abraham and to his seed , gen. 17.7 . is by the gpspell shewed to be confirmed , luk. 1.55 . act. 2.38 ▪ 39. gal. 3.14.16.29 . but the promise to abrahams seed implied his infants , gen. 17 , 7 , 10 , 12 , therefore the gospell ( vvhich is the complement of that promise ) implieth our infants : and so the apostle sayth , the promise is to you and to your children , act. 2.39 . and the signe and seale of the promise vvas giuen to abrahams children in infancie , gen. 17 , 10 , 12. therfore it belongeth to our children in their infancie : and we are sayd to be the children of promise as isaak was ▪ gal. 4.28 ▪ but isaak was the child of promise in his infancie , and had then the seale of the promise in his infancie , when he was but eight dayes old , act , 7 , 8 , wherefore we also in our infancie are children of the promise , and haue right to the seale of the covenant even then , or else wee are not as isaak was . and thus christ commanding the gospell to be preached , commanded the fulfilling of the promises to be preached , even all and every one of the promises , without excepting any : and so commanded the promise of grace , and accomplishment of it to the seed of the faithfull even in their infancie to bee preached . likewise commanding the seale of the covenant to be applied unto all vvithin the promise , as freely and generally now as ever it was of old , not excepting infants : he commanded infants to be sealed by baptisme , as they were sealed before by circumcision . and seeing all beleevers are by his commission to be baptised : the infants of the church being beleevers ( in respect of the beginning of faith , though not actually ) as i haue formerly proved , they are also to be baptised by vertue of christs commission , mark. 16. math. 28. that so the promises unto the fathers may be confirmed , and the gentiles ( as well as the circumcision , that is , the iewes ) may glorifie god for his mercie , rom. 15.8 ▪ 9. now i will proceed to answer their exceptions ; beginning first vvith this about circumcision , and the covenant with abraham . 1 there was a commandement for circumcision , gen. 17. there is none for baptisme of infants . answ. this is before disproved , and a commandement shewed mark. 16. for the sealing of the seed of the faithfull in infancie , vvas a part of the gospell ; seeing the gospel is the fulfilling of the covenant and promise made to the fathers , and to abraham in speciall , act. 13 32 , 33. luk. 1.55.73 . if it be objected , that baptising of infants is not there particularly expressed : i answer , neither are other parts of the gospell particularly expressed th●re : but the g●spell in generall being to be proclaimed , all parts of the gosp●ll ( whereof sealing the infants is one ) are necessarily implied . note also that things are taught & commanded somtime in scripture , though not in expresse words : as the trinitie of persons in the unitie of the go●head , the resurrection of the dead ( as christ proveth ) vvas taught in exod. 3. eternall life in heaven , and eternall death in hell are not expressed in moses law : nor that they should haue synagogues in everie citie for the people to meet on the sabboth . neither in the new testament is it taught in express words , that christ is coessentiall , coequall , coeternall with the father : or , that his death and obedience is the merit of our righteousnesse , or satisfaction for our sinnes : nor ●xpr●sly commanded that vvomen should receiue the lords supper , nor example that any did : vvith sundry other things which though they be not expressed in plaine words , yet are they soundly to be proved by arguments from the scripture . 2 that cōmandement included males onely , children or servant though unbeleevers , and excluded all females , though beleevers so doth not baptisme . answ. 1 it is untruly sayd that servants unbele●vers were to be circumcised : they feigne this , the s●ri●ture tea●heth them not so , but the contrary . for circumcision was the seale of the righteousnesse of f●ith , rom. 4 , 11 , and should it be set upon unbeleevers , vvhich had no righteousnes ▪ no faith ? so god should be made the author of a false and lying seale : to signifie and to assure the things which vvere not . againe , every circumcised person was to eat the passover , and had all other privileges of israells law , exod. 12 , 48 , 49. the passover signified christ , and the eating of it life by christ , 1 cor. 5.7.8 . ioh. 6.57 . but no unbeleever had these benefites . and if unbeleevers and israelites had communion together in circumcision , passover , and other holy things , then vvas the church of israel no communion of saints , but a mixture with all sorts of infidels , whosoever would , contrary to exod. 19 , 5.6 . levit. 19 , 2 , & 20 , 7. deut. 14 ● , 2 , & 26.18 , 19 , levit. 20 , 26 , 1 king. 8.53 . though females ( vvanting that part of the body ) were not outwardly circumcised , for that foreskin which was not , could not be cut off : yet may we not say they were excluded , for then they might not haue eaten the passover , exod. 12.48 . they vvere vvithin the covenant ( d●ut . 29 , 10 , 11 , 12 ) and implied in the males . as the men had that signe of purification ( according to the nature of the male ) vvhich vvomen had not ▪ so women had another kind of purification ( according to the nature of the female ) vvhich men had not , levit. 12. each ●●x had their portion in the things that figured their redemption by christ , according to their severall natures . therefore vvhen the outward signe was changed from circumcising to baptising , wherof the female is as capable as the male ; both sexes are baptised , act. 8.12 . so infants now are as capable of baptisme , as they vvere of circumcision , there is nothing therefore to debarre th●m from it . 3 the law required circumcision to be performed on the eight d●y : so doth not the law of baptisme . ans what of this ? the law of baptisme appoynteth no day at all for any : shall none therefore be at all baptised ? the law required the passover to be kept on the 14 day of the first moneth , exod. 12 the law of christ appointeth no day vvhen to eat the lords supper : yet it is the same in substance that the passover was , 1 cor. 5.7 , 8 , so baptism is the same in substance that circumcision was , coloss . 2.11 , 12. and as all may now eat the lords supper , which might then eat the pascha : so all may now be baptised , which then were circumcised . 4 but when faith is manifested , then is baptisme to be performed . ans. th●y meane by manifestation , profession with mouth ; and by then they mean not before that time . this is denyed , and formerly disproved , and they haue no one word of god to confirme their doctrine . 2 though infants manifest no faith by their owne mouth , yet the mouth of god manifests them to haue faith in the begining or feed therof , because he testifieth them to be holy , 1 cor. 7 , 14 , which is not vvithout faith : and testifieth them to haue grace and righteousnes by christ , answerable to the corruption and unrighteousnesse which they haue by adam , rom. 5. as is before declared . againe th●y say , neither circumcision nor baptisme are seales of the covenant of life and salvation : that whi●h is now the seale , was ever the same , which is the h●ly spirit of promise , 2 cor. 1 , 22 , ephes. 1 , 13 , & 4 ▪ 30. ans. a bold untruth contradicting the apostle , who calleth the signe of circumcision , the seale of the righteousnes of faith , rom. 4 . 1● . and righteousnesse of faith is life and salvation , gal. 3.11 . ephes. 2 ▪ 8. and the covenant which circumcision sealed , was that the lord would be their god , gen. 17.7.10 . and so he would giue them life and salvation , reu 21.3.4 . whereas they except , the spirit is the scale : it is true ; but they should obs●rue that it is an invisible seale in the heart ; vvhereas paul speaketh of an outward visible seale , which is also a signe , and on the body . again , the covenant may haue more seales then one : so that if the spirit were an outward seale , yet might circumcision be a seale also of the same thing . moses calleth circumcision a signe or token , gen. 17.11 , but he no where calleth it a seale ▪ yet paul calleth it a seale , because in truth it was so , and more then a bare signe . for a signe is to make some other thing knowne unto us , as the doole-stone or land mark is for distinction of grounds : or it is further to put us in minde of things formerly done , as the stones at gilgall vvere for a memoriall to israell how their fathers passed through iordan , ioshu . 4.20.21.22 . but a seale goeth yet further , and certifieth or assureth of any promise or gift . now because circumcision was such a signe as assured unto abraham his righteousnesse by faith in christ the promised seed : therefore the apostle rightly calleth it a seale . vpon which ground vve also rightly call the passover , baptisme , and our lords supper seales , because they are such signes as certifie and assure us of forgivenesse of sins , and of righteousnesse and salvation by christ. and from this we haue a most certaine ground for the baptisme of infants : because baptisme is no more now , then circumcision vvas of old , namely a signe and seale of righteousnesse by faith . and if infants had such a seale under the promise of the gospell : how should it with any colour be denied now under the performance of that promise ? unlesse we will say , christ hath not confirmed the promises made unto the fathers , contrary to rom. 15.8 . 2 cor. 1.20 . further they say , there is but two covenants , the law and the gospell , the old and the new , gal. 4. the old covenant , the law , was made with the children of abraham after the fl●sh , and had circumcision in their fl●sh for a signe thereof . the new covenant the g●spell , is not made but with the one seed , gal. 3.16 . that are of the faith of abraham . the children of the fl●sh are not they to whom this covenant is made , rom. 9.8 the children of the fl●sh must be but out , &c. gal. 4 30. so that the covenant with abraham and his children after the flesh , was not the covenant of life and salvation ; it was the covenant of worke , of the law. &c. ans. in this their plea , there is a little truth , but much errour and delusion . it is true , there were but two covenants , the law and the gospell . there is sophistry and delusion in their saying the covenant of the law was with the children of abraham after the flesh : for as after the fl●sh meaneth naturall generation , so isaak , iakob , and all the israelites , even christ himselfe was abrahams child after the flesh , math. 1.1 . rom. 1.3 . & 9.3.4.5 . yet were not they aliens from the covenant of the gospell . but as the fl●sh meaneth corruption of nature , rom. 8.1.8.9 . and as men haue no other generation of the spirit , but of the fl●sh , iohn ▪ 3. vers . 5.6 . in this sense it is true , that the children of the flesh are not the children of god , rom. 9.8 . and they are under the law , not under the gospell . but this is nothing against the truth we maintaine . for isaak who was abrahams seed after the flesh in the first sense , but after the spirit , and by promise in the second sense , hee was circumcised in his infancie , now all the christian church are as isaak , children of the promise , gal. 4.28 , and our infants though by nature ( as it is corrupted ) they be children of wrath , ephes. 2 , yet by promise and grace in christ , they are children of god , rom. 5 , and therefore are to haue the seale of the covenant of grace in infancie , as isaak had ; even as by abrahams justification , the apostle proveth the justification of us all , rom. 4.3.22.23.24 . errour it is that they say , abrahams children had circumcision in the flesh for a signe of the old covenant or law for first , the law was given by moses , iob 1.7 . many yeares after abraham , and could not disanull the covenant with abraham , or make the promise of none effect , as the apostle plainly teacheth us gal. 3.17 . christ also sayth , circumcision was not of moses , but of the fathers , iob. 7.22 . secondly , the covenant which circumcision sealed , was that the lord would be a god to abraham and his seed , gen. 17.7.10 , this was the covenant of the gospell , heb. 8.8 10 , rev. 2 1.3 . thirdly , circumcision was the seale of righteousnesse of faith , rom. 4 11 , but the law is not of faith , gal. 3.11.12 , therefore circumcision was a seale of the gospell promised , a seale of the covenant of grace . wheras th●y say , the new covenant is not made but with the one seed , gal. 3.16 , it is true , & maketh against them : for that one seed , is there shewed to be christ : not christ in his own person onely , but christ with his church , which make one mystical body , 1 cor. 12.12 . eph. 5.30.31.32 . now the infants of the church , are by the covenant of grace of the body of christ , even as by nature they are of the body and stock of adam , as before ( in the treaty of originall sin , ) we haue proved by rom. 5 , so that the new covenant is made with them also , and therefore the seal of that covenant is due unto them now , as it was in abrahams daies . n●xt this , they goe about to proue , that the covenant wherof circumcision was a signe , gen. 17 , was not the same which we haue now in the gospell : because the lord sayth , it is not the same , jer. 31.31 , heb. 8.6 . it is a new covenant that we haue under the gospell . answ. it is no marvell though these men so often slander us , vvhen they dare belye the lord himselfe . neither doth the prophet , nor the apostle ( in the places by them cited , or ) any where say , that the covenant vvhich abraham had , and vvhich vvas sealed to him by circumcision , is not the same which we haue . i haue before proved them to be one in substance by gal. 3 , and rom. 4.11 . the covenant spoken of by ieremy , was made vvhen god took them by the hand to bring them out of aegypt , ier. 31.32 , heb. 8 , vvheras the covenant vvith abraham was many yeares before , gal. 3.17 . therefore the covenant made vvith abraham by promise , is the same that we now haue by performance and confirmation of that prom●se , luk. 1.54 55 , 72 ▪ 73 rom. 15.8 . againe they say , though abraham himselfe had the covenant of grace promised him , by which promise he had salvation in the m●ssiah to come ; yet ha● he not the ordin●●●●s of the new covenant which wee haue : and therefore none of his seed in the fl●sh could be partakers of that which he had not himselfe . answ. they grant enough to their own condemnation : for if abrahams covenant was of grace and salvation by christ ; then vvas it not of the law ( as before they pleaded ) for that causeth vvrath and damnation , rom. 4.15 , gal. 3.10.12 . we plead not for the same external ordinances or manner of outward ●ispensation : but for the same substance of the covenant , which was of faith , not of works ; and so of the gospell not of the law , as paul teacheth us , rom. 4. gal. 3. the israelites passeover of the lamb , and our passeover christ : their feast of unleavened cakes , and ours , ( 1 cor. 5.7.8 . ) differ apparantly in the outward ordinances . so their bread of manna from heaven , ours of wheat from the earth ; their drink of vvater from the rock , ours of wine from the grape , ( in the supper of our lord ) how greatly doe they differ in the outward things : yet were they the same spirituall meate and drinke both to them and us , even christ : as the apostle teacheth 1 cor. 10.3.4 . so circumcision and baptism , differ much in the outward rite and signe ; but not in the substance or thing signified . yet cease they not their idle contention , but further say concerning us , they speake untruely [ in saying that the covenant which this new is not like , is that law given upon mount sina , exod. 19. not that in gen. 17. ] marke the words ( in ier. 31 , heb. 8 , ) not like the covenant that i made with their fathers , when i tooke them by the hand to bring them out of aegypt , which is mentioned in exod. 3 , not exod. 19 , then did god appeare to moses , and commanded him to take them by the hand and lead them out of aegypt , where the covenant is mentioned in ver . 6 , i am the god of thy fathers , abraham &c. i am come to deliver them &c. to bring them into a good land &c. which promise was made unto their father abraham . answ. the untruth and ignorance is in themselues that so reason . for there was no covenant made in exod. 3. let the place be veiwed . though if there had then a covenant been made , it were nothing to our purpose ; because abraham was dead many yeares before , and we reason of the covenant made vvith him and his seed , whiles he lived , gen. 17. but in exod. 19.5 &c. treatie is of a covenant to be made : in exod , 20 &c. the lawes are promulgated . in exod. 24 , 7 , 8 , the covenant is made up and dedicated . and that this was that first and old covenant which should be abolished , as ieremy foretold , the apostle doth plainly manifest . for having shewed the promise hereof in heb. 8.8 . — 13 , hee prosecuteth the same matter in heb ▪ 9 , shewing the differences between the first covenant and the second , or the old and the new ; and how a covenant ( or testament ) must be confirmed by bloud and death : vvhich for the new was by the death of christ , heb. 9.15.16 , and for the first , it vvas with the death & bloud of bullocks and goats , vvherewith moses sprinkled the people , v. 18 19.20 . and this was that action recorded in exod ▪ 24 , done at mount sina . moreover obserue here these mens fraud : ieremy speaketh of a covenant made ; they tell us of a covenant ( or promise ) mentioned in exod. 3 , as if to make a covenant when they came out of aegypt , and to mention a covenant or promise made many yeares before with abraham in canaan , were all one . that which is alledged of the land of canaan promised in gen ▪ 17 , 8 , is true , as a type or figure , but not as the maine thing there intended . for abraham himselfe had no inheritance in the land of canaan , no not so much as to set his foot on : act. 7.5 . how then did circumcision seal that to abraham , vvhich god never performed to him ? is not this to make gods promise to him , vaine ? the apostl● is a better expositor , who saith , that circumcision sealed to him righteousnesse of faith , which he had before , rom 4.11 , and telleth us , how by faith abraham soiourned in the land of promise , as in a strange countrie , and looked for a heavenly citie and countrie , which he understood to be figured by that earthly land : heb. 11.9.10.16 . and if ●h● poss●ssion of canaan was that vvhich circumcision sealed , then abrahams servants ; yea and all his sonnes by keturah , and all pros●lytes of other families , that were circumcised , were deluded with a vaine promise : seeing none of all these had ever inheritance in canaan , but onely the israelites the posterity of isaak , which were numbred in numb . 26 ▪ 2. — 53. againe , they except thus . the covenant is made in gen. 17 , with abraham and his seed , not with every faithfull man and his seed . is every faithfull man abraham ? what proofe for that ? it is well if wee be abrahams seed &c. answ. the exception is frivolous : for by vertue of that covenant vvith abraham vvho circumcised his infants , isaak his son , iakob his son , all the isra●lits in their generations , and every faithfull proselyte of the heathens , circumcis●d their infants . so the faithfull now , vvho all are abrahams seed , and heyres by promise , g●l . 3.29 , doe seale their infants vvith bap●ism● , as of ●ld ●h●y did vvith circumcision , for the promise is to such and to their children act. 2.39 . when paul bringeth abrahams example for justification by faith , rom. 4. if any should trifle and say , what is that to us ? we are not abraham : the apostle telleth , it vvas not written for his sake alone , but for us also , rom. 4.23.24 . so say we ; that abraham gaue his infants the seale of the covenant , it is not written for him alone , but also for us . but they proceed and say ; in rom , 4 , 21 , abraham received the signe of circumcision , the seale of the righteousnesse of faith which hee ●ad , when he was uncircumcised , that he should be the father of the faithfull &c. this proveth that abraham received circumcision to seale up his fatherhood of the faithfull ; not that he received it to seale up his faith in the messiah , which he had 24 yeares before : but a seale of his faith in beleeving god , that hee should be the father of many nations , gen. 17.4 , rom , 4.17 , and this was imputed to him for righteousnesse , rom. 4.22 . answ. they are blinde , and would make blinde . 1 there is no faith that can be imputed to any man for righteousnesse , but the faith that is in the messiah ; as the apostle proveth at large , in rom. 3 , 21.22.24.25 . and rom. 4. gal. 3.2 and abraham beleeeving the promise of a seed , vvhich beleefe was counted to him for righteousnesse , gen. 15.5.6 . beleeved christ principally , as his seed after the flesh : for otherwise how could all nations be blessed in him , that is in his seed , as god promised , gen. 12.3 . gal. 3.8.16 . 3 the apostle disproveth their vaine glosse , when having shewed how abrahams faith was counted to him for righteousnesse , rom. 4.19 . — 22 , hee annexeth , that this was written for us also , to whom it shall be imputed , if we beleeue in him that raysed up iesus , v. 23 24. but if abrahams faith had not beene the faith in christ , the apostles argument from his example had been impertinent . finally they say , abraham received circumcision as none received it : and faith was required of none to circumcision : but faith is required to baptism : & therfore these be but mens dreams , & chaff in sted of wheat . answ. in deed they would giue us chaffe for wheat . they would haue us beleeu that abrahams circumcision sealed his fatherhood , not his faith in christ : which dream is before refuted . they would teach us two or moe circumcisions , one which abraham had , another vvhich other men had . but as there is one lord , one faith , one baptisme , eph. 4.5 . so we finde but one circumcision , which all our fathers received . they would perswade us , that vvhatsoever paul saith , that circumcision was the se●le of the righteousnesse of faith , rom. 4.11 . yet faith was required of none to circumcision . but vvho vvill beleeue this their dreame ? will god seale righteousnesse of faith to them that haue no faith ? this is to make god the author of vaine and worthlesse seales . if it sealed not to men righteousnesse of faith , what sealed it ? not the land of canaan , for ( as is foreshewed ) no child of abraham by keturah , no proselyte had inheritance in canaan : no nor isaak , nor iakob , who were but strangers in the land as abraham was , heb. 11.9 . not the covenant of the law , for that vvas not given till many yeares after abraham , neither could any man haue righteousnesse by it , but wrath and curse , gal. 3.10 . but had not errour blinded their eyes , they might see that the covenant sealed by circumcision was , that the lord vvould bee a god to them and to their seed after them , gen. 17.7 . and this vvas the covenant of grace in christ , heb. 8.8.10 . against peters doctrine in act. 2.38.39 , where he saith , the promise is made to you and to your children ; they cavill thus , wheras many stumble at the word children , conceiving that it is meant of infants , it is here and elsewhere used often in the scriptures for men of understanding : act. 3.25 , &c. answ ▪ how struggle these men against the light ! it is true , that the vvord children often meaneth men of understanding : but meaneth it not infants also ? the word seed , used in gen. 17 , often implyeth old persons also : will they therefore inferre , that the promise and seale thereof to abrahams seed , belonged not to his seed in their infancie ? so nether is there any reason to think that the promise to the iewes and their children mentioned in act 2 , is meant onely of men of understanding , and not also of their children in infancie . for vvhen the apostle speaketh of the promise to them and to their children , concerning christ and remission of sinnes by him , and sealing the same by baptisme : he hath evident reference to the promise made of old to abraham , vvhich concerned the same things , and vvas sealed by circumcision : as appeareth by comparing luke 1.54.55.72.73 &c. galath . 3.8.16 . whereas the apostle in 1 cor. 7.14 , calleth a beleevers children holy ; these men expound him thus : if your children in your own judgement be holy , and you doe not put them away when you are converted to the faith , but use th●m still as your children , &c. then may you keepe your wiues being holy , they being of a neerer naturall bond then your children , and use them still as your wiues &c. their reason of this interpretation is ; because holynesse sometime signifieth when a person or thing is set apart or sanctified to the beleever , 1. timothy 4.5 , titus 1.15 . thus is the unbeleeving wife holy , and thus are the children h●ly , and not otherwise . answ. that children are thus sanctified to the beleever is true : but in saying , and not otherwise , they doe violence to the apostles doctrine , and the truth is not in them . for first he meaneth not the children to be holy in the parents judgements ; but telleth them his owne judgement , they are holy ; and useth it as a reason to confirme his former doctrine . secondly , he meaneth not in respect of putting the children away from civill use as children ; for so no mor● should be said for the children of the faithfull , then for their infidell servants : for philemon mought and did retaine onesimus for civill use as a servant , before he vvas converted to christ , phil v. 10.11 , &c. and beleeving servants might dwell and converse civilly with unbeleeving masters , 1 tim 6.1 2 , yea misbegotten children and bastards were not to be put away in respect of civill use : for vvho sho●ld nourish or bring them up , rather then their own parents ? 2 sam 11 4.5 , & 12.14.15 &c. thirdly , they corrupt the apostles reason , which is not to this effect , if you may keep your children , then you may keep your wiues : but thus , your unbeleeving vviues you may keep , for they are sanctified unto you , because the children vvhich you beget of them are holy : and so the holinesse of the children is an argument and proofe that they might still reteyne th●ir unb●leeving vviues . fourthly , they change the apostles vvord am●ss● : he saith not of unbeleeving vviues that they are holy , but sanctified to the beleeving husbands ; but the children vvere holy . fif●ly , the sanctification of meats , & purity of other things , mentioned in 1 tim. 4.5 tit. 1.15 , is not meant of religious sanctification , but for civill uses : vvhereas the children of beleevers are otherwise holy , namely , in respect of the covenant of grace and church of god , as is aboundantly proved before , by rom. 5 , vvhere , as they haue naturally sinne and unrighteousnesse by adam , so they haue holinesse and righteousnesse by the grace of god in christ. also by gen. 17 , compared with rom. 4.11 , where abrahams ( and all faithfull mens ) children , are with their parents in the covenant of grace , and haue the seale of the righteousnesse of faith . and upon this ground doth paul strongly proue the beleevers might keep their unbeleeving wiues , because the children which they had by such , were ( by reason that one parent was a christian ) holy , to wit , with holines of the covenant made with the faithful and their seed . and in this respect the children of those that are in the covenant , are said to be borne unto the lord , and to be his children , ezek. 16.8.20 , 21. vvheras in the other respect , all children in the world are the lords , exod. 19 , 5. and so the children of the church are called the holy seed , diff●ring heerein from the seed of other peoples , ezra 9.1.2 , vvhich if th●se opposites had understood , they could not thus haue stumbled at the apostles words , and wrested his meaning . but they plead further , that the apostle saith not , else were your infants , but else were your children uncleane , but now they are holy : so that all the children of unbeleevers are as holy by this place as infants , &c. and so must be baptised . answ. herein they seek to pervert the straight wayes of god. as if they should say : god ( vvhen he made vvith abraham that everlasting covenant vvhich circumcision vvas a seale of ) said not that hee vvould be a god unto him and to his infants after him , but unto his seed , gen. 17 7 , so that all the seed of abraham ( ismaelites , edomites &c. ) vvere as holy , and as well within the covenant of grace and to be circumcised , as the is●a●lites vvhich vvere the generation of isaak . but they should obserue that the covenant of mercie passeth from the fathers to the children from age to age , even to the thousand generation , if they loue god , and keep his commandements : whereas if they ●ur●e away and hate him , he visi●●th their iniquity , exod. 20.5.6 , ez●k . 18 9.10.13 . children of beleevers vvhen they are borne of th●ir parents , ( and all are borne infants ) are all in the covenant vvith their parents ; and vvere of old to be circumcised , are now to be baptized . if the children be of yeares vvhen their parents enter into the covenant , either they assent and enter into covenant vvith them , or they diss●nt and enter not . so isma●l abrahams child , being taught of his father to keep the vvay of the lord ( genes ▪ 18.19 . ) and not disobeying , he vvas vvith his father circumcised at thirteene yeares of age , genes . 17.25 . likewise all children now assenting unto and vvalking in the faith vvith their parents are to bee baptized at what age soever . but vvhen ismael fell from his obedince , then vvas he cast out of abrahams house , and vvas no longer counted for abrahams seed , but in isaak vvas his seed called , genes . 21.10.12 . ismael was still abrahams seed and child in nature , according to the flesh ; but hee continued not still the childe of the covenant , galath . 4.29.30 , nor abrahams seed according to the promise . even so , if children of beleevers now being of understanding , doe refuse the faith of christ , or fall from it , they are to be kept out of the church ▪ or cast out from it : and so the seale of grace and salvation belongeth not unto them , ( ezek. 18 , 24 , 2 chro. 15.2 , matth 3.7.9.10 , ) as it belongeth to all the infants of the faithfull , and to all their children ( of what age so ever ) that receiue the faith of christ , and abide in it vvith them . and these men greatly mistake if they think we hold children are to be baptised , or are holy , because they are our children by nature , ( for so they are children of vvrath , eph. 2.3 , ) but they are holy , and to haue the seale of salvation , because god hath graciously accepted them into his covenant with our selues : and keepeth them in it , untill they fall from faith and obedience of christ ; even as wee our selues continue in the covenant , whiles we continue in the christian faith , and no longer , 2 tim. 2.12 . as we are the children of the first adam , we are all sinners , disobedient , unrighteous and under condemnation : but as vve are the children of the second adam ( christ ) we are all holy , made obedient , righteous ; and heyres of salvation , according to the apostles doctrine in rom. 5 ▪ 12 — 21. against an other proofe for baptisme of infants , gathered from pauls words in 1 cor. 10 ▪ 1 , 2 &c. vvhere he speaketh of all the israelits baptism in the cloud & in the sea : they struggle vvith little reason or colour of truth . for ( to omit their discourse of pauls scope in bringing that in , vvhich no way cleareth the controverse ) they tell us . 1 that moses did not at all wash them with water in the cloud and sea . 2 th●t this of moses is called baptisme by comparison , as noahs arke is called the figure of the baptisme that saveth us : for as the arke saved those in it from drowning : so the israelites were all under the cloud and in the sea , and therein baptized or safeguarded from destruction of their enemies . 3 that it pleased the holy ghost to say they were baptised in the sea and cloud , because the cloud and sea was their safety , as noes arke was : and as christ saith , they are baptized that suffer for his sake . so there is as much warrant to enioyne infants to suffer persecution , because it is called baptisme : as to baptise them , because the clowd and sea is called baptisme . answ. how many vvrestings and vvindings are in these mens vvords ? first , they say , moses did not at all baptise them with water . and why ? was there no water ( thinke they ) in the clowd and in the sea ? let them consider exod. 14.24.25 . compared with psal. 77.16.17 , &c. and they may see there vvas vvater enough in the clowd : and they will not say ( i think ) that there vvas no vvater in the sea . all outward baptising or washing , must be with water or some other liquor . if they were not baptised with water , vvhat other liquour were they baptised in ? not vvith bloud , as in the baptisme of suffering death for christs sake , which they impertinently mention . not vvith vvine or strong drinke : for they found none such in the wildernesse . if they can shew nothing but water to baptise them in , let them deny no more ( for shame ) that they were baptised with water . god spake to our fathers by the prophets at sundry times ( or in * sundry parts , as it vvere by peice meale ) as the apostle teacheth hebrew . 1.1 . by moses he shewed how the clowd removed from before israel , and stood behind them , ( as they passed through the sea ) and gaue them light , but vvas darknesse to the aegyptians : and from this fierie cloudie pillar the lord looking , troubled the aegyptians , and took off their charret wheeles , that they draue them heavily , exod. 14.19.20 24.25 . this being briefly and obscurely told by moses , god after inlargeth by asaph another prophet , vvho sheweth the manner of it ; how not onely the vvaters of the sea saw the lord , vvhen they fled and parted ; but the clouds also ( from aboue ) poured out vvater vvhen they rained ; the skies sent out a sound by thunder , &c. thus the ground being softned vvith the raine , occasioned the charret vvheeles of the aegyptians ( sticking in the mire ) to fall off , and hindred their pursuit : psa. 77.16.17 , &c. after this the apostle ( taught by gods spirit ) manifesteth the mystery which before was kept secret ; namely how this passage under the cloud ( which rained ) and through the sea was a baptism to the israelits : even as christian mens washings in rivers or vessels , was a baptisme to them . and as the manna which israel ate , and vvater from the rock which they drank , vvas the same spirituall meat and drink which we haue signified by bread and wine in our lords supper ; so their vvashing in the cloud & sea , and our vvashing in vessels or rivers , is spiritually the same baptisme . from hence we gather the baptising of our infants by two arguments : 1 all our fathers ( saith paul ) were baptised in the cloud and sea : therfore ( say we ) infants : for seeing there vvas no other baptisme but that in the cloud and sea , such of our fathers as then vvere infants vvere at that time baptised , or else many of our fathers ( even al the infants of many thousand families ) vvere never baptised : vvhich is contrary to the apostles doctrine . and if infants had baptisme under moses , it cannot ( vvith any colour of reason ) bee denied them under christ. 2. in that the apostle teacheth us , that the extraordinary and temporary sacraments ( or seales of salvation ) vvhich israel had , vvere the substance and truth vvhich wee now haue , though moses doth not so express : it followeth upon like ground , that their ordinary seales , namely circumcision and the passouer , vvere the same in truth and substance vvith baptism and the lords supper vvhich vve now haue . and being the same , as infants had circumcision then , so they are to haue baptisme now . secondly , vvheras they say that of moses was called baptisme by comparison , as if it were not properly baptisme ; they swerue from the right way : it was as truely and properly baptisme to them , as ours is to us , though the manner of administration differ : even as their manna and vvater vvere as truly and properly the sacrament of christs body and blood to them , as bread and wine in the lords supper are to us . otherwise the apostle should not say truly , that hey vvere the same . 1. cor. 10.3.4 . thirdly , noes ark is not called the figure of baptisme , as these corrupters of scripture tell us : but baptisme ( sayth the apostle ) is a like-figure ( or antitype ) 1 pet. 3.21 . so that the saving by water of eight men in the ark , was a type or figure : and the saving of a few now by vvater in baptisme , is an antitype , or like figure : both of them figuring salvation by the death of christ. fourthly , neither do these men set down the reason fully and rightly , why they are sayd to be baptised , namely , because the cloud and sea was their safetie as noes ark was ; for though it may in some sense bee granted that these were th●ir safetie , as baptisme is our safetie ( for it is sayd to saue us , 1 pet. 3.21 . ) yet properly th●y were sayd to be baptised in the cloud and sea , because they were in them sacramentally washed from their sins , & planted together in the likenesse of his death , buriall , and resurrection , as we are now by baptisme , rom. 6.3.4 ▪ 5. the cloud served them for three users , 1. to protect and keep them safe , esai . 4.5.6 . 2 to guide them in the way that they should go , numb . 9.17 . &c. exod. 13.21 . and these two were ordinary , 3. to baptise them by powring down water , and this was extraordinary , and but one time in the red sea , for ought we finde . and in this respect paul sayth they were baptised in it . fiftly , their last speech of inioyning infants to suffer persecution , as well as to baptise them , is spoken vvith a wry mouth : for as vve enjoyne not infants to bee baptised , though we baptise them ; so can we not enioyne them to suffer persecution . but this we say and know , as infants are baptitised into christ , so oftentimes they suffer persecution for christ : being with their parents afflicted , imprisoned , banished , &c. yea and bereaved of life it selfe , so that they haue even the baptisme of blood or martyrdome also . wheras we find mention of whole housholds to haue been baptised by the apostles ; from which example it is probably gathered that infants also were baptized . against this they dispute thus , 1. there are many housholds in which there are no infants . ans. this is true : and it is also true that in many there are infants . therefore this argument is propounded but as probable , not as certaine . 2 they say , it is most sure as the apostles practised in one houshold , so they practised in all . but in the iaylors house they baptised such as they preached the word unto , and such as beleeved , act. 16.31.34 . and this is most plaine that infants cannot heare nor beleeue , &c. ans. it is not most sure , but altogether unlikely , as themselves , i think , will acknowledge . for there is no likelihood that all housholds to whom the apostles preached , did beleeue every one in them , though some did . and they grant that none but beleevers were baptised . so then if the goodman of the house , and the men onely beleeved , there none but men were baptised : if women onely beleeved , they onely were baptised . therfore the apostles practise was not alwayes alike in respect of the persons that they baptised . so for infants , such houses as had none , wee easily grant that no infants vvere there baptised . but such as had infants , their parents beleeving , we hold that their infants vvere baptized ; for there is no exception of infants at all in any place of the apostles acts. the barre vvhich they put , that infants cannot heare nor beleeue , is soone removed . we know infants can heare , though not vvith understanding : we know also ( and haue proved before ) that they beleeue , though not actually or professantly . and this faith begun in them in their regeneration , is a sufficient ground vvhy infants should be baptised , as i haue formerly manifested . finally , unto christs words mark. 1● . 14 . suffer ye little children to come unto me , &c. for of such is the kingdome of god : they say , it is not s●yd , infants are of the kingdome of heaven , that is , obeyers of the gospel , luk. 4 43 ▪ but that they that enter into the kingdom of heaven , must become as little children , for of such like is the kingdome of god. and , this is christs meaning , men must bee converted and receiue the kingdom of god as a child . &c. ans they speak like children in understanding . 1. the people brought yong children properly unto christ , not men converted & become like children : mark. 10.13 . for the children the disciples rebuked the bringers : for their rebuking christ vvas much displeased , and sayd , suffer the little children to come unto me what reasonable creature will now deny that christ speaketh here of children in yeares , not of old men like children . the children that were brought , christ took up in his armes , put his hands one them & blessed them : may we think he took up aged persons . 2 the reason vvhy he would haue such chil●ren suffered to come to him , is , for of such is the kingdome of god , mark. 10.14 if he had not meant this of yong children themselues , but of men like children in some condition ; there had been no weight in his words : but the people might haue brought unto him upon that ground , doues , and serpents for christ to lay hands upon and blesse : for as godly men must in some thi●gs be like children , 1. cor. 14 ▪ 20. so must they in some things also be like serpents , and like doues , math. 10.16 ▪ 3 ▪ they wrest the t●xt , when they expound f●● of such is the kingdome of god , thus , for of such like : as if christ meant n●t the children properly , but ancienter men like such children . they might even as well say , that when paul writeth , i beseech thee , being such a one as paul the aged , ( philem. v. 9 that he ●peaketh not this of himselfe , but of some other man ▪ like himselfe , that made request for onesimus . but ignorant and unstable men vvill pervert all scriptures to their owne perdition . that infants of the faithfull are indeed of the kingdome of god , is before proved from rom. 5. and many other scriptures . now vvhereas christ blessed the children ; they tell us , he baptised them not , vvhich we grant : but if they vvhich were by nature children of wrath and curse , were now by grace made children of blessing in christ ; then were they in deed of the kingdom of god , and such as might receiue baptisme the signe and seale of blessednes . lastly they say , it is a blessing to infants to be created , to liue , to grow in stature , wisedome , &c. to haue their sight , their limbs , &c. so that christs blessings extend as well to this life as that which is to come . answ. all gods benefits for this life and the next , are in deed blessings : but christ blessed not those children with any such vvordly temporal blessings particularly ; but gaue them the blessing of god in generall : and men are too presumptuous that will vvithout due proofe restreine that to some particulars vvhich the lord hath not restreyned . wee know that our blessednesse from god in christ , is our eternall salvation , rom. 4 ▪ 6. &c. it vvas his l●st farewell to his beloved disciples to lift up his hands and blesse them , luk. 24.50 . and it is the summe of the gospell , that in abrahams seed ( that is christ ) all nations shall be blessed , gal. 3.8 . this grace abrahams infants had , this grace christ gaue to little children : and the same he vouchsafe to continue unto us and to our children throughout their generations : preserving us and them from the curse of anabaptistrie , whereby so many errours are sparsed , scriptures wrested , and soules perverted unto destruction . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a12284-e250 page 5. page ● . page 7. pag. 10 1● . page 13. pag. 15 16. page 16. page 17 1● ▪ pag. 18. * so it is explained in ezek. 18.21 pag ▪ 18. pag. ●● . pag. 2● ▪ pag. 26 27. pag. 28. pag. 29. pag. 32. pag. ●● . pag. 34 36. pag. 39. rom. 9.25.26 . rom. 11.5.7 act. 17.28 , 29. rom. 8.29 . page 41. pag. 4● . pag. ●● pag● ●● . pag. 78. pag. ●9 . pag. 80. pag. 84. pag. 1● . pag. ●7 . ● tim. 2.12 . pag. 89. pag ●0 . pag. 91. pag. 92. pag 94. joh. 8.34 ▪ 36 page 95. confess ▪ 18. concil . pag. 113. pag. 113. pag. 80. pag. 11● . rom. 7.1 . pag. 114. pag. 115. pag. 116. pag. 117. pag. 117. pag. 117. pag. 118. pag. 119. pag. 119 pag. 120. pag. 121. pag. 122. pag. 122. pag. 129. pag. 131. pag. 132. pag. 13● . pag 145. pag. 145. pag. 146. pag. 147. pag. 148. pag. 148. pag. 150. pag. 151. pag. 152. pag. 136 ▪ pag. 136 ▪ pag. 138. pag. 141. pag. 142. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . rom. 16.25.26 . 1. cor. 10.1.2 . & ▪ mark. 1.5 . act. 16.33 . pag. 143. mat. 10.13 14. 1 cor. 7.13.16 . pag. 143. persecution for religion judg'd and condemned in a discourse between an antichristian and a christian : proving by the law of god and of the land, and by king james his many testimonies, that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion, so he testifie his allegiance by the oath appointed by law. helveys, thomas, 1550?-1616? 1662 approx. 222 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 41 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a43300 wing h1413a estc r30775 11467420 ocm 11467420 47807 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a43300) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 47807) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1463:28) persecution for religion judg'd and condemned in a discourse between an antichristian and a christian : proving by the law of god and of the land, and by king james his many testimonies, that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion, so he testifie his allegiance by the oath appointed by law. helveys, thomas, 1550?-1616? [5], 2-75 p. printed in the years 1615 and 1620 and now reprinted for the establishing some and convincing others, [london] : 1662. "helveys, thomas, 1550?-1616?" appears in manuscript on verso of t.p. proving also that the spiritual power in england is the image of the spiritual cruel power of rome, or that beast mentioned, rev. 13, manifesting the fearful estate of those who subject to such powers, that tyrannize over the conscience: and shewing the unlawfulness of flying, because of the trouble men see or fear is coming upon them. to which is added an humble supplication to the kings majesty ... " epistle dedicatory signed : "ana-baptists." to "an humble supplication to the kings majesty" is added "wherein (among other things) is proved, 1. that the learned usually erre and resist truth. 2. that persecution is against the law of jesus christ. 3. against the profession and practice of famous princes. 4. condemened by ancient and later writers. 5. freedom in religion not hurtful to any common-wealth, and it depriveth not kings of any power given them of god." reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng freedom of religion -england. anabaptists -england. 2008-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-11 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2009-01 john pas sampled and proofread 2009-01 john pas text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion persecution for religion judg'd and condemn'd : in a discoure , between an antichristian and a crhistian . proving by the law of god and of the land , and by king james his many testimonies , that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion , so he testifie his allegiance by the oath appointed by law. proving also , that the spiritual power in england , is the image of the spiritual cruel power of rome , or that beast mentioned , rev. 13. manifesting the fearful estate of those who subject to such powers , that tyrannize over the conscience : and shewing the unlawfulness of flying , because of the trouble men see or fear is coming upon them . to which is added , an humble supplication to the kings majesty ; wherein ( among other things ) is proved , 1. that the learned usually erre and resist the truth . 2. that persecution is against the law of jesus christ . 3. against the profession and practice of famous princes . 4. condemned by ancient and later writers . 5. freedom in religion not hurtful to any common-wealth , and it depriveth not kings of any power given them of god. 2 cor. 10.4 . for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal , but mighty through god , to the pulling down of strong holds . printed in the years , 1615. and 1620. and now reprinted for the establishing some , and convincing others , 1662. to all that truly wish jerusalem's prosperity and babylons destruction ; wisdom and understanding be multiplyed upon you . in these dayes , if ever , that is true which the wiseman said , eccl. 12.12 . there is no end in making many books , and much reading is a weariness to the flesh : yet considering how heinous it is in the sight of the lord to force men and women by cruel persecutions , to bring their bodies to a worship whereunto they cannot bring their spirits ; we thought it our duty for gods glory , and the reformation thereof in this our own nation , to publish this little writing following , wherein is manifestly proved by the law of god , the law of our land , and his majesties own divers testimonies , that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion , be it true of false , so he testifie his faithful allegiance to the king. what shall men do striving about matters of religion till this be ended ? for , if this be a truth , that the kings of the earth have power from god to compel by persecution all their subjects to believe as they believe , then wicked is it to resist , and the persecutions of such is justly upon them , and the magistrates that execute the same are clear from their blood , and it is upon their own heads : but if the kings of the earth have not power from god to compel by persecution any of their subjects to believe as they believe ( seeing faith is the work of god ) then no lesse wicked is it in the sight of god to disobey , and the persecutions of such are upon the magistrates , and the blood of the persecuted cryeth unto the lord , and will be required at the magistrates hands . wherefore in all humility , reverence and loyalty we do humbly desire of our sovereign lord the king , and all gods ministers under him , as judges , justices of peace , &c. by whom this persecution is executed , themselves to consider , not whether herein they please lord bishops , but whether they please the lord jesus christ , who after a little while shall judge all judges according to their works , without respect of persons , and therefore are commanded to kiss the son lest he be angry , and they perish in the way , psal . 2. our humble desire is , that they would consider what is testified in the scriptures ; that the kings of the earth shall give their power unto the beast , till the words of god be fulfilled ; then shall they take their power from her . if it be granted ( as it is ) that the kings of this nation formerly have given their power unto that romish beast , it shall evidently appear that our lord the king , and all magistrates under him , do give their power to the same beast , though the beast be in another shape : for , as that spiritual power or beast of rome sets up a worship ( as they pretend ) for god , and force all thereto by cruel persecutions , the kings of the earth giving their power thereunto ; so this spiritual power , or beast of england , sets up a worship ( as they pretend ) for god , and force all thereto by cruel persecutions , the kings majesty giving his power hereunto . oh that all that are in authority would but consider by the word of god ( which shall judge them at the last day ) what they do , when they force men against their souls and consciences to dissemble to believe as they believe , or as the king and state believe , they would withdraw their hands and hearts therefrom , and never do as they have done , partly through inconsideration , and partly to please lord bishops being in favour with the king. it cannot but with high thankfulness to god , and to the king , be acknowledged of all , that the kings majesty is no blood-thirsty man , for if he were , bodily destruction should be the portion of all that fear god , and endeavour to walk in his wayes , as may be seen in the primitive time of this spiritual power , or beast of england , after that k. henry the eight had cast off the romist beast and since ( so far as leave hath been granted them ) by hanging , burning , banishing , imprisoning , and what not , as the particulars might be named . yet our most humble desire of our lord the king , is , that he would not give his power to force his faithful subjects to dissemble to believe as he believes , in the least measure of persecution ; though it is no small persecution to lye many years in filthy prisons , in hunger , cold , idleness , divided from wife , family , calling , left in continual miseries and temptations , so as death would be to many less persecution ; seeing his majesty confesseth , that to change the mind must be the work of god. and of the lord bishops we desire , that they would a little leave off persecuting those that cannot believe as they , till they have proved that god is well-pleased therewith , and the souls of such as submit are in safety from condemnation ; let them prove this , and we protest we will for ever submit unto them , and so will thousands : and therefore if there be any spark of grace in them , let them set themselves to give satisfaction either by word or writing , or both . but if they will not , but continue their cruel-courses as they have done , let them yet remember that they must come to judgment , and have their abominations set in order before them , and be torn in pieces when none shall deliver them . and whereas they have no other colour of ground out of the scriptures , than that they have canonized a law , viz. that whosoever shall affirm that the kings majesty hath not the same power over the church that the godly kings of israel had under the law , &c. let him be excommunicate ipso facto . the unsoundness of which ground is manifested in this dialogue following , wherein is shewed their palpable ignorance , in that they know not the mystery of god ; and therefore have they made this canon in flattery to the king , only to support their pride and cruelty : for , if the kingdom or land of israel , or canaan now under the gospel , be an earthly kingdom or land , or israel now a worldly or fleshly israel , as both were under the law , then we would confess there should be an earthly king thereof : but if the kingdom of israel now be not earthly , but heavenly , joh. 18.36 . and the israelites now not of this world , joh. 15.19 . then the king thereof is not of this world , as they are not of this world , joh. 17.16 . and if these spiritual lords confess that christ is king now of the land and people of israel , but yet he hath left our lord the king his deputy , to make such laws and lords over the church as pleaseth him ; the word of the lord is against them , there is but one lord , ( 1 cor. 12.5 . ) and one law-giver ( jam. 4.12 . ) over his church . nay , his majesty himself is against them , who saith , there is no earthly monarch over the church , whose word must be a law. and saith further , christ is his churches monarch , and the holy ghost his deputy , alledging luk. 22.25 . the kings of the gentiles bear rule one over another , &c. but it shall not be so among you . saying further , christ when he ascended , left not peter with them to direct them in all truth , but promised to send the holy ghost to them for that end , &c. if any will be rebellious against the word of the lord herein , yet let them not be rebellious against the word of the king. oh that any thing would prevail with them to make them leave off these cruel courses , of persecuting poor souls that desire truly to fear god , and are most faithful subjects to the king , and desire also the salvation of the souls of these their cruel persecrutors , who do seek their utter undoing by all the fore-named persecutions , only because they cannot of faith offer up such worship to god as these spiritual lords command ; and the rather let them leave off persecuting , seeing the kings majesty acknowledgeth , it is a sure rule in divinity , that god loves not to plant his church by violence and bloodshed . and if it be a law for all christians , that in indifferent things one must not offend another , but the strong to forbear rather than offend his weak brother ; otherwise he wounds the weak conscience , and sins against christ , 1 cor. 8. then how much less hath any man power to be lord over the weak conscience , forcing it to practise that it hath not faith in , bringing it thereby unto sin , and unto condemnation , rom. 14. we do unfainedly acknowledge the authority of earthly magistrates , god's blessed ordinance , and that all earthly authority and command appeartains unto them ; let them command what they will , we must obey , either to do or suffer upon pain of gods displeasure , besides their punishment : but all men must let god alone with his right , which is to be lord and law-giver to the soul , and not command obedience for god where he commandeth none . and this is onely that which we dare not but maintain upon the peril of our souls , which is greater than bodily affliction : and only for the maintenance of christs right herein , do false prophets and deceivers ( who by that craft are cloathed in fine apparrel , and fare deliciously every day ) labour to make us odious in the ears and eyes of prince and people , knowing well that if they had not power by persecution to force men to dissemble to believe as they , their kingdom and gain would soon come to nought ; the wickedness of which course is discovered in this writing following . for the manner , being dialogue-wise , we thought it the fittest in two respects : first , for the understanding of the simple , to whom especially gods mysteries appertain , more than to the wise and prudent of the world . secondly , because all the objections that we have met with , might be set down , and the plainlyer answered . and because we have faith and assurance that many will see and acknowledge the unlawfulness of tyrannizing over the conscience , by persecuting the bodies of such as cannot be subject , we have also though it meet to manifest the fearful estate of such subjection , that they may deliver their souls , if they will be saved : and also have set down the beginning of that old and good way , that john baptist , christ jesus and his apostles have left unto all that will be saved unto the end of the world . beseeching that almighty worker , that he would work in the hearts and consciences of men , that they may enquire for it , and that out of the scriptures , and walk therein ; then shall they find rest unto their souls , although afflictions to their bodies . oh it is time for the lord to work , for they have destroyed his law , and have set up in many nations such worship for god as best pleaseth them that are in authority , and have power to persecute the contrary-minded . let all gods people cry , how long lord ? when wilt thou come to destroy antichrists cruel kingdom , and establish christs meek and peaceable kingdom ? as thou hast begun , even come lord jesus by the spirit of thy mouth , and the brightness of thy coming , even come quickly . amen . by christs unworthy witnesses , his majesties faithful subjects : commonly ( but most falsly ) called ana-baptists . persecution for religion judg'd and condemn'd : in a discourse between an antichristian & a christian . antichristian . vvhy come you not to church ? christian . vvhat should i do there ? antich . worship god. chr. i must worship god as he requireth , and not as any mortal man requireth . ant. true , but the worship that we require you to offer up , is the worship god requireth . ch. if it be so , i will with all willingness assent unto it ; but my conscience must be satisfied thereof by the word of truth , that i may have faith in it , otherwise it is my grievous sin , rom. 14.23 . for i may not believe it so to be , because you affirm it . ant. well , you must go to church , otherwise you are disobedient to the law , and will fall under punishment . ch. but still remember that you would have me worship god as you pretend , therefore let us agree what worship god requireth : christ saith , joh. 4.24 . god is a spirit , and they that worship him , must worship him in spirit and truth . here we see what worship god requireth , viz. that we worship him with our souls and spirits , and also that we worship him according to the truth of his word : and therefore for your book-worship , if it were according to truth , ( from the which it is as far as light is from darkness ) yet if i cannot offer it up with my spirit , it is not acceptable to god , but most abominable . ant. well , you must come to church . ch. i pray let me ask you a question , do you seek the glory of god , and the salvation of my soul herein , or your own obedience ? ant. i seek the glory of god , and the salvation of your soul , and not my own obedience . ch. then manifest it not by words only , but by deeds and truth ; which if you do , you will not threaten me with punishment to cause me to come , but with meekness and patience satisfie my conscience by the word of truth , ( for this is the duty of the minister of christ , 2 tim. 2.24 . ) that i may come with a willing mind , so shall i be accepted , 2 cor. 8.12 . psal . 110.3 . for if by threatning me with punishment , as imprisonment , banishment , or death , you cause me to bring my body , and not my spirit or soul , so shall i come near to the lord with my lips , when my heart shall be far from him , which he accounteth vain worship and hypocrisie , mat. 15. ant. i perceive what you aim at , you would have none brought to church , but such as come willingly of themselves , so should every man worship god as himself pleaseth . ch. your conclusion i aim not at ; for i acknowledge , that as there is but one god , so there is but one way of worshipping him , out of the which way , whosoever is , and repenteth not thereof , shall pay a dear price ; and therefore it standeth all men upon , not to please themselves in worshipping of him . but you perceive aright that i aim at this , that none should be compelled to worship god , but such as come willingly ; for i will ( by gods assistance ) prove most evidently by the scriptures , that none ought , nor can be compelled to worship god to acceptance , by any worldly means whatsoever . ant. prove that . ch. well , i prove what i have affirmed , thus : first , heb. 11.6 . without faith it is impossible to please god ; and , rom 14.23 . whatsoever is not of faith , is sin . these two scriptures prove most evidently , that whatsoever i have not faith in , in worshipping god , although it were undoubtedly true , i may not offer it up to god , for it is displeasing to him , and it is a sin against him : as also it appeareth plainly by him , that came unto the kings supper , and wanted his wedding garment , matth. 22. ant. it is the kings law that you must go to church , and therefore you must be obedient . ch. the intent of the kings law is not so , as appeareth both by the statute for the oath of allegiance , and also by his majesties own words , manifested in his apologie for the oath of allegiance , as is hereafter more fully declared . for , if the intent of the law were to make me come to church to worship god , and not of faith , the intent of the law were to compel me to sin , which his majesty requireth not . ant. i deny not but whatsoever is not of faith is sin ; but we would have you come to church to worship god in faith. ch. it is not so : you regard not whether i have faith or no ; for if you did , you would not urge the kings law against me , which is but a carnal weapon , and cannot beget faith , and therefore is no sure ground of faith. for , in my obedience to god , i must not presume above that that is written , 1 cor. 4.6 . for , the word of god is the only ground of faith , rom. 10.17 . and therefore if you would have me come in faith , you would only urge the law of the king of kings against me . ant. have not all the learned of the land considered of these things , and set them down ? are such simple men as you likely to see more than all these ? ch. i demand of you whether they be not all subject to erre , as all men are ; and therefore i must try their spirits , whether they erre or no , 1 joh. 4.1 . for i may not hold , either that they cannot erre , or that if i find them to erre , i must obey them notwithstanding ; do you not herein teach me that popish and accursed doctrine , that you inveigh so much against in the papists , that i must believe as the learned of the land believe ? ant. i do not hold that they cannot erre . ch. yes , you hold either that they cannot erre , or , if they do erre , i must obey them ; for , if i do not obey them , you threaten me with punishment . ant. nay , but i hold , that they being learned do not erre , and therefore you must obey them . ch. then this is your argument , the learned do not erre , and therefore must be obeyed . the bishops and the rest of that rank are learned , and do not erre , and therefore they must be obeyed . another argument as vain as they may be collected from this ground : the learned do not erre , and therefore must be obeyed . the pope and the rest of that rank are learned , ( yea , as learned as yours ) and do not erre , and therefore they must be obeyed . the one is as true as the other , but both abominable . if you prove , that they that want this learning , must not meddle with the wayes of god but as these learned men teach them , then indeed you say something ; but if you cannot , as most certain it is you cannot , ( for the word of god is against you herein ) then for shame to god and men leave oft your cruel persecuting ; for why do you persecute men that cannot in faith submit to your direction concerning the wayes of god , upon which consisteth their salvation , if they walk in the true way of faith with the love thereof , and their condemnation if they walk in a by-path ? ant. then i perceive if a man can plead that he hath not faith in any thing which the king commands , he need not to be obedient . ch. would god all men could see your dealing herein . this is your usual course when your mouth is stopped by the power of gods word that you know not what to answer , then you run to the kings command , and so make your matters good , like unto your predecessors the wicked scribes and pharisees , who when our lord and master had stopped their mouthes that they had no word of answer , then they sought to make him a trespasser against caesar ; but i have learned in some weak measure , that as there is a caesar unto whom in conscience i must be obedient , so there is another king , one jesus , that is king of kings ; unto whom if you will not be obedient , in giving unto god that which is gods , he will tear you in pieces , when there shall be none that can deliver you , and cast you into the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for evermore , where there shall be no rest day nor night ; and therefore agree with this your adversary quickly , whilst you are in the way with him . the power and authority of the king is earthly , and god hath commanded me to submit to every ordinance of man , 1 pet. 2.13 , 14. and therefore i have faith to submit to what ordinance of man soever the king commands , if it be an humane ordinance , and not against the manifest word of god , let him require what he will , i must in conscience obey him , with my body , goods , and all that i have : but my soul , wherewith i am to worship god , that belongeth to another king , whose kingdom is not of this world , joh. 18.36 . whose people must come willingly , psal . 110.3 . whose weapons are not carnal , but spiritual , 2 cor. 10.4 , &c. ant. is this all the authority that you will give to the king ? ch. vvhat authority can any mortal man require more , than of body , goods , life , and all that appertaineth to the outward man ? the heart god requireth , prov. 23.26 . he commanded to give unto caesar the things that are caesars , and to himself the things that are his , luk. 20.25 . now if all the outward man be caesars , and the inward man too , so that he must be obeyed is his own matters , and in god's matters also , then tell us what shall be given to god ? if you , or any man , will give him more power or authority than i give him , then you give him more than his majesty requireth , as shall be shewed . ant. we do not say that the king can compel the soul , but only the outward man. ch. if he cannot compel my soul , he cannot compel me to worship god , for god cannot be worshipped without the soul , joh. 4.24 . if you say he may compel me to offer up a worship only with my body , ( for the spirit you confess he cannot compel ) to whom is that worship ? not to god. then consider you who they worship that are thus compelled , ( say you by the king. ) let it well be here observed , that you make the king a commander of such worship as is not to god , contrary to his majesties own mind , manifest in his writings . but this you do , not to advance gods glory , nor the kings honour , but your own cursed kingdom of darkness , which you hold by flattery and falshood . for , if this compelled worship ( which is not to god ) were taken away , then your kingdom would fall to hell , from whence it came ; and therefore all men may here see it is supported only by wickedness . ant. i confess the kings authority is earthly , but he is head over the church under christ . ch. god forbid that any mortal man should so equalize himself with christ , who alone is head of his church , as the husband is of the wife , eph. 5.23 . and hath left no vice-gerent in that his office , for he is never absent from his church , mat. 18.20 amd 28.20 . all that any mortal man can be , is to be a subject of his kingdom ; for there is but one lord , 1 cor. 12.5 . and one law-giver , jam. 3.12 . and that this is so , his majesty confirmeth by his own testimony , in his apology for the oath of allegiance , pag. 46 , 47. but as i well allow of the hyrarchy of the church for distinction of orders , ( for so i understand it ) so i utterly deny that there is any earthly monarch thereof , whose word must be a law , and who cannot erre in his sentence by an infallibility of spirit : because earthly kingdoms must have earthly monarchs , it doth not follow that the church must have a visible monarch top : for the world hath not one earthly temporal monarch ; christ is his churches monarch , and the holy ghost his deputy . the kings of the gentiles reign over them , but ye shall not be so , luk. 22.25 . christ did not promise before his ascension to leave peter with them , to direct and instruct them in all things ; but he promised to send the holy ghost unto them for that end . these are his highness own words , whereby it evidently appeareth his majesty challengeth no supremacy over the church , but laboureth to overthrow that abominable exaltation of that man of sin in the romish profession ; for christ hath given no supremacy in , or over his church to any mortal man , but expresly commanded the contrary , as that place of luke , mentioned by his majesty , plainly declareth . his highness is supream head and governour over all his subjects bodies and goods within his dominions , and therein i detest and abhor all forreign powers whatsoever . but now for the thing in controversie betwixt you and me , of compelling men by persecutions to do service to god ( as is pretended ) wherein they have not faith : it shall be manifest not to be of god , in that christ jesus himself , the only lord and law-giver to the soul , neither had any such power and authority , neither taught any such thing to his disciples , but the contrary . first , mat. 28.18 , 19. all power is given me in heaven and in earth ; go therefore and teach all nations . and 2 cor. 10.4 . the weapons of our warfare are not carnal , but mighty through god , to cast down strong holds , &c. here we see christ hath no worldly power , nor worldly weapons . secondly , he practised and taught the contrary . when the samaritans would not receive him going to jerusalem , luke 9. his disciples would have had fire come down from heaven and devoured them , but christ rebuked them , and said , ye know not of what spirit ye are of : for the son of man is not come to destroy mens lives , but to save them . and the apostle by the spirit of christ , 2 tim. 2.24 . commandeth the servants of the lord , not to strive ; but to be gentle towards all men , apt to teach , suffering the evil-men patiently ; instructing them with meekness that are contrary-minded ; proving , if god at any time will give them repentance , that they may know the truth , and come to amendment out of the devils snare , &c. these scriptures need no explanation for this most evident truth . ant. well , yet notwithstanding all this , it is manifest in the scriptures , by the example of the apostle peter smiting ananias and saphira to death , act. 5. and of the apostle paul striking elymas the sorcerer blind , act. 13.11 . and also by delivering hymeneus and alexander unto satan for the destruction of the flesh ; that punishment upon the body may be used , and the flesh destroyed : for if it were lawful for them to smite to death , and the like , though by extraordinary means , then it must be lawful for us by ordinary means , since extraordinary means now fail : if you say it be not lawful for us , then you must say it was not lawful for them , and that were to accuse them of laying a false foundation , which none fearing god will affirm . ch. i dare not once admit of such a thought , as to disallow the truth of that foundation which the apostles , as skilfull master-builders , have laid : but for your argument of peters extraordinary smiting of ananias and saphira , he neither laid hand upon them , nor threatned them by word , only declared what should befall them from god ; and therefore serveth nothing to your purpose . also that of paul to elymas , he laid no hands upon him , but only declared the lords hand upon him , and the judgment that should follow . if you can so pronounce , and it so come to pass upon any , do it , and then it may be you may be accounted master-builders , and layers of a new foundation , or another gospel . and for the apostle paul his delivering hymeneus and alexander unto satan , 1 tim. 1.20 . it was not by any temporal sword or power , but even by the power of our lord jesus christ , in his name , by the sword of the spirit , 1 cor. 5.4 . and this was not extraordinary , but ordinary , to continue in all churches to the end ; and not to destroy the outward man , as you teach and practise , but to destroy those lustful affections which dwell in the flesh , that so the flesh being mortified , the spirit may be quickned , and the soul saved in the day of the lord jesus . and whereas you say , that as they did it by extraordinary means so you may do it by ordirary means : if you would use only those weapons which christ commanded his disciples to use in this business , which are not carnal , we would agree with you herein ; but if your ordinary means be such as christ never had , nor any of his disciples , then it is a means of your own devising , for christ hath all means whatsoever for bringing men to the obedience of the truth . ant. doth not christ in the parable teach , that he compelled all to come in ? ch. i demand of you , wherewith doth he compel them ? he hath no carnal weapons : doth he not compel them by his word , which is his two-edged sword ? heb. 4.12 . rev. 2.12 . doth he smite the earth with any other weapons than by the breath of his lips ? isa . 11.4 ant. well then , you see then compulsion may be used . ch. yes , i confess to you such compulsion as much as you will , if when you have done you will walk in his steps , who when the gaderens prayed him to depart , he left them , and taught his disciples where they should preach the word of god , if they would not receive them , that they should shake off the dust of their feet for a witness against them , mat. 10.14 . which accordingly they practised , act. 13.51 . and 18.6 . &c. he never taught them to pull the contrary-minded out of their houses , and put them in prisons , to the undoing of them , their wives and children : this was saul's course when he was a blasphemer and persecutor , &c. act. 9.1 , &c. christ taught his disciples to wait if at any time god would give the contrary-minded repentance , and not to prevent their repentance by seeking their blood . indifferent man. i have heard you all this while , and by that i have heard , i see evidently that none ought to be compelled by any worldly means to worship god , neither can any be accepted in such worship , in that it is spiritual worship that he accepteth . ch. blessed be the lord that you see it , i would not you only , but all men did see that the sword of the magistrate , and all afflictions proceeding therefrom , are only upon the outward man , and connot convert a soul from going astray , not beget faith ; for , faith comes by hearing the word of god , rom. 10.17 . and therefore is no instrument in this work . all that the magistrate can do , is to compel me to bring my body ; for , except there be a willing mind , which no man can see , there is no acceptance with god ; and therefore it is not gods glory , nor my acceptance with him they seek by forcing me , but meerly their own obedience , to god's great dishonour , and the destruction of my soul , if i should so do . but if it would suffice them to bring my body to that they call their church , and require of me no worship : i will go when they will , only not when their false worship is performed . for i abhor the accursed doctrine of the familists herein . indif . it is a lamentable thing to consider how many thousands in this nation there be , that for fear of trouble submit to things in religion which they disapprove of . ch. oh! whose eyes do not gush out with tears in the confideration thereof ? seeing in all that god is highly displeased and all those are under the judgments of god everlastingly , if they repent not . ant. if it were as you would have it , that all religions should be suffered , how dangerous would it be to the kings person and state ? what treacheries and treasons would be plotted ? indif . indeed that is a thing greatly to be suspected : but if permission of all religions could be cleared in that , there is no question but it might prevail with the king and state. ch. if it be not cleared of that , then let all men abhor it . it is the commandment of him , who is the god , not of confusion , but of peace and order , and therefore to be obeyed , mat. 13.30 . let the good and bad grow together unto the end of the world ; suffering the contrary-minded patiently , proving , if god at any time will give them repentance that they may acknowledge the truth , &c. first , for all those that seek and practise in themselves reformation in religion , satan himself cannot task them with the least jot of treachery : and for the papists , may it not justly be suspected that one chief cause of all their treasons hath been because of all the compulsions that have been used against their consciences , in compelling them to the worship practised in publick , according to the law of this land ; which being taken away , there is no doubt but they would be much more peaceable ; as we see it verified in divers other nations , where no such compulsion is used : for , if they might have freedom in their religion , unto their faithful allegiance to the king , the fear of the kings laws , and their own prosperity and peace , would make them live more inoffensively in that respect . indif . only the papists are dangerous , in that some of them hold , that the kings and princes that be excommunicated by the pope , may be deposed or murdered by their subjects , or any other . ch. for that damnable and accursed doctrine , as we abhor it with our souls , so we desire all other may : and therefore all the laws that can be made for the prevention of such execrable practices are most necessary . but now i desire all men to see , that the bishops and we justly cry out against this accursed doctrine and practice in the pope and his associates , that princes should be murdered by their subjects for contrary-mindedness in religion , yet they teach the king to murder his subjects for the self-same thing , viz. for being contrary-minded to them in their religion . so likewise , as that accursed doctrine is to be abhorred in the papists , who teach subjects not to be obedient to their princes that are excommunicated by the pope : even so is that accursed doctrine of the bishops to be abhorred , who teach princes not to protect their subjects that are excommunicated by them , in not affording them either law or justice , nor to bear testimony in any court , do not the bishops herein justifie this accursed doctrine and practice in the papists ? ant. there is a great difference in the persons , for the one are princes , the other subjects ; and subjects must be obedient . ch. most true it is ; but is it not also true , that princes must afford all their subjects justice and equity , although they be as heathens and publicans ? for , if princes be freed from doing right and justice , and protecting their subjects that be excommunicated , why are not subjects also freed from subjection and allegiance to their princes , being excommunicated , if excommunication be christ's law to all alike that will be saved , without respect of persons . and also , is not that law of christ herein to be observed , that whatsoevr ye would men should do unto you , even so do ye unto them , mat. 7.12 . and therefore , as princes would that all their subjects should be faithfull and obedient unto them ; so ought princes to be just and equal to all their subjects , in maintaining them in every just and equal cause between man and man : for , for this cause ( not for religion ) saith the apostle , the saints at rome payed tribute to caesar their heathen prince , who was against them in religion . shall they not escape damnation for this accursed doctrine and practice , and think ye you shall ? thou that judgest another , judgest thou not thy self ? by this it may appear , as also by exceeding many other doctrines and practices , how near you are to that bloody spiritual power , what pretences to the contrary soever you make . ant. it were a lamentable thing if that bloody religion should be practised again in this nation . ch. i acknowledge it a bloody religion , but god hath cast down the power thereof in this kingdom , blessed be his name : but i would you could see your own cruel bloody religion ; but that god of his mercy hath restrained it by the kings majesty ( who thirsteth not after blood ) how many , only for seeking reformation in religion , have been put to death by your power in the dayes of qu. elizabeth ? and how many , both then and since , have been consumed to death in prisons ? yea , since that cruel spiritual power hath been set up , hath not hanging , burning , exile , imprisonments , and all manner of contempt been used , and all for religion ? ( although some for grievous errours ) and yet you see not this to be a bloody religion . further , you cry out of their bloody cruelty ; the reason is , because you will not be of their religion ; and when you have done , your selves are most bloody and cruel ( so far as is in your power ) because we , and all men will not not be of your religion . ant. if men hold errors , and will not obey the truth , do they not sin against god , and deserve punishment ? ch. yes , such deserve punishment , but god hath appointed their punishment , and the time thereof . their punishment , rom. 2.8 , 9. to them that are contentions , and disobey the truth , and obey unrighteousness , shall be indignation and wrath , tribulation and anguish shall be upon the soul of every one that doth evil , mark 16.16 . he that will not believe , shall be damned , 2 thes . 1.8 . in flaming fire , rendring vengeance unto them that know not god , and obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ ; which shall be punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the lord , and the glory of his power . the time thereof is mentioned in the last recited place , ver . 7. when the lord jesus shall shew himself from heaven with his mighty angels . and rom. 2.5 . the day of wrath. and ver . 16. at that day when god shall judge the secrets of men by jesus christ . and mat. 13.40 , 41. at the end of this world the son of man shall send forth his angels , and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend , and them that do iniquity , and shall cast them into a furnace of fire , &c. here is shewed the punisher , the punishment , and the time thereof . this punisher hath commanded you to wait for their repentance ( by his own example ) which is in his hands to give them ; and not to cut them off , and send them to hell , as you teach and practise , which is contrary to god , who is patient towards mockers , which walk after their own lusts , 2 pet. 3.3 . because he would have no man to perish , but would that all men whatsoever should come to repentance . but you ( contrary to him ) use all means you can to cut men off that they might perish , in that you seek to destroy their bodies whilst they remain in their errors . ant. i confess that god commandeth ( matth. 13. ) that the good and bad must grow together unto the end of the world , but that is in the church . ch. well , if that be the true exposition , i pray you why do you then excommunicate any out of your church , contrary to your own acknowledgment ? and here let all men take notice , that by this exposition you overthrow your own excommunication quite , and accuse christ for giving a rule , mat. 18. and the apostle paul , and the church of corinth for practising that rule , 1 cor. 5. in casting out of the church : for you say , all must grow together to the end in the church : but the exposition of the law-giver himself is against you , that the field is the world , ver . 38. yet in that you confess that the wicked and the godly must be let alone in the church unto the end , then much more in the world unto the end : for , if the wicked pollute not the church , sure , it is they pollute not the world. this then you are commanded unto ver . 29 , 30. nay , gather them not , let them grow together unto the end of the world. ant. let them come to church , and they shall grow together unto the end . ch. indeed i think so . hereby you manifest you regard not how wicked and ungodly men be ; so they come to your church , you will not destroy them , though they remain in their abominable lusts : but if they will not come to your church , let them be wheat or tares , you will gather them , and ( as much as in you is ) send them to burning . herein all men may see , as i said before , that you seek your own glory and obedience , and not gods , and so exalt your selves above god , 2 thess . 2. indif . well , i bless god , i see this as clearly as the sun shining in his brightness , that it is to fight against god to compel any , contrary to their consciences , to perform any service unto him , in that there are so many places of scripture commanding the contrary . ch. the whole new testament throughout in all the doctrines and practices of christ and his disciples , teach no such thing as compelling men by persecutions and afflictions to obey the gospel , but the direct contrary , viz. to suffer at the hands of the wicked ; when they were persecuted for righteousness sake , to suffer it ; when the unbelievers and wicked curse them , to bless , and pray for their repentance , and that god would forgive them , and never lay these sins to their charge , as our saviour , luke 23.34 . stephen , act. 7.60 . and the rest did . and for a conclusion of this point , that your faith may be full herein , consider , that we are to wait for the jews conversion , and not to destroy them . indif . it is true , that might give all men satisfaction in these things . ch. oh yes , if men had any regard of god or his word , they would never deal more in this thing : the lord , we see , rom. 11. hath promised , that when the fulness of the gentiles is come in , the jews shall be converted . now if the jews , who are such fearful blasphemers of christ and his gospel , that contemn him and his testament with all despite , if their conversion must be waited for , that they may not be destroyed from off the face of the earth , then who may not see ( if they shut not their eyes ) that the conversion of all is to be waited for ? and , that no man for blaspheming christ and his gospel may be destroyed , or afflicted by imprisonments , death , or any calamity whatsoever . indif . it is not to be gain-sayed with any shew of truth . i would god the kings majesty would consider of this point , seeing that the cruel bishops , by using his power , commit such sin against god in this thing , both in persecuting them that cannot in faith yeeld , and also in forcing them that do yeeld , contrary to their consciences , to sin against god , and to perish , if they repent not . ch. i am perswaded , that if his highness did but once well weigh and consider it , he would never suffer such high iniquity to be committed against god , contrary to his express commandment , and all to be done by the king's power , for nothing have they else to bear them out . the lord perswade the hearts of his majesty and his posterity unto it , seeing his throne is established by him , that he and his posterity may sit and reign over these nations and kingdoms , till jesus christ the commander of these things , come in his glory to recompence every man according to his works , without respect of persons . ant. if wicked malefactors should be let alone to the end of the world , then where is the magistrates sword ? it is of no force if evil men may not be cut off . ch. i acknowledge unfeignedly , that god hath given to magistrates a sword to cut off wicked men , and to reward the well-doers , rom. 13. but this ministry is a worldly ministry , their sword is a worldly sword , their punishments can extend no further than the outward man ; they can but kill the body , luke 12.4 . and therefore this ministry and sword is appointed only to punish the breach of worldly ordinances , which is all that god hath given to any mortal man to punish . the king may make laws for the safety and good of his person , state , and subjects , against the which whosoever is disloyal or disobedient , he may dispose of them at his pleasure ; the lord hath given him this sword and authority , fore-seeing in his eternal wisdom , that if this his ordinance of magistracy were not , there would be no living for men in the world , and especially for the godly ; and therefore the godly have particular cause to glorifie god for this his blessed ordinance of magistracy , and to regard it with all reverence , but now , the breach of christs laws , of the which we all this while speak , which is the thing only i stand upon ; his kingdom is spiritual , his laws spiritual , the transgressions spiritual , the punishment spiritual ; everlasting death of soul ; his sword spiritual : no carnal or worldly weapon is given to the supportation of his kingdom , nor to punish the transgressors of the laws of this kingdom : the law-giver himself hath commanded that the transgressors of these laws should be let alone until the harvest ; because he knows , they that are now tares , may hereafter come to repentance , and become wheat : they that are now blasphemers , persecutors and oppressors , as paul was , may by the power of gods word become faithful , and a faithful witness , as he was : they that are now fornicators , &c. as some of the corinthians once were , 1 cor. 6.9 . may hereafter become washed , clensed , and sanctified , as they were : they that are now no people , nor under mercy , as the saints sometimes were , 1 pet. 2.10 . may hereafter become the people of god , and obtain mercy , as they did : all come not at the first hour , some come not till the eleventh hour ; if those that come not till the last hour should be destroyed , because they came not at the first hour , then should they never come , but be prevented . ant. were not blasphemers put to death in time of the law ? lev. 24.11 , &c. ch. yes , an israelite blaspheming the lord , or doing any thing presumptuously , which was blasphemy , numb . 15.30 . no sacrifice was to be offered for him : but would you from hence have the kings majesty put all his subjects to death that contemn the truth of christ ? if yea , see what will follow . all papists ought to be put to death , who are direct blasphemers , rev. 16.10 , 11. when the vial of gods wrath was poured upon the throne of the beast , ( which all england confess is meant the popish power ) they blasphemed the god of heaven , &c. all the jews , that speak many things blasphemously against christ , ought to be put to death : yea , of what profession soever he be , doing any thing presumptuously against christ , ought to be put to death by your affirmation ; no sacrifice to be offered , no repentance to be admitted , dye he must under two or three witnesses . but that this is most false , christ and his apostles in his testament do manifestly declare , as is before shewed . was not paul a blasphemer ? yet received to mercy . but this the holy ghost teacheth from blasphemy under the law , heb. 10.28 . he that despised moses law , died without mercy , under two or three witnesses : of how much sorer punishment suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , that treadeth under foot the son of god , and counteth the blood of the testament as an unholy thing , wherewith he was sanctified , and doth despite to the spirit of grace ? speaking of such as had received and acknowledged the truth , ver . 26. this is now the due proportion , an israelite according to the flesh , in the time of the law presumptuously sinning against gods commandment , by his command must die by the worldly sword , no sacrifice was to be offered for him : so in the new testament , or time of the gospel , a spiritual israelite according to the faith , contemptuously or despitefully sinning against christs commands , which he hath formerly acknowledged , despiting and contemning them , by his command must die by the spiritual sword , no repentance to be admitted , seeing he crucifieth again to himself the son of god , and makes a mock of him , heb. 6.6 . david and peter came not within this compass ; though they sinned of knowledge , yet they did it not contemptuously or despitefully , but through frailty . if an israelite under the law did ought through ignorance , as numb . 15. or through frailty , as levit. 6. there was sacrifice for him : so under the gospel , an israelite doing ought through ignorance , or through frailty , as peter and barnabas , with the rest of the jews , mentioned gal. 2. or the incestuous person , 1 cor. 5. there is repentance for him . this is it that confounds all true religion ; that because it was so in the time of the law , therefore it may be so in the time of the gospel : by which reason men might set up as truly the whole law , as some part , and utterly abolish christ . i pray you seriously consider what is here said . ant. hath not the king the same power that the kings of israel had , who compelled men to the observation of the law of god ? ch. first , i answer you : that the kings of israel had never power from god to set up any thing in or for the the service of god , but that only which was commanded by god , deut. 4.2 . no , not so much as the manner of any law , numb . 15.16 . and 9.14 . and therefore this will not serve your purpose , that kings may set up within their dominions such spiritual lords and laws for the serving of god ; no , nor the manner thereof , as may best please themselves , under what pretence soever ; thereby making god for his worship subject to their pleasures . and his majesty acknowledgeth that christs church after the establishing of it by miracles in the primitive time , was ever after to be governed within the limits of his revealed will. speech at parliam . anno 1609. secondly , the kings of israel might compel men to the sacrifices and ordinances of the old testament , all which were carnal , and purged not the conscience , heb. 9.9 , 10. as circumcision , the passeover , &c. but no mortal man , whatsoever he be , can compel any man to offer the sacrifices of the new testament , which are spiritual , and purge the conscience , except he can beget faith in him , and convert his soul . the ordinances of the old testament were to be performed by the posterity of abraham according to the flesh , that thereby they might be taught christ : but the ordinances of the new testament are to be performed only by the posterity of abraham according to faith , that have learned christ , and have put on christ , and so having him , all things else appertain unto them . but one thing i demand of you , who now is king of israel ? ant. i confess christ is king of israel . ch. yes , christ alone is king of israel , that sits upon davids throne , and therefore mark the true proportion : in the time of the old testament the kings of israel had power from god to compel all to the ordinances of god , or to cut them off by their sword from the earthly land of canaan , and the promises thereof : so in the new testament the king of israel , christ jesus , hath power from the father to compel all to the ordinances of god , or to cut them off by his sword from the heavenly land of canaan , and the promises thereof . the kings of israel only had this power under the law , and the king of israel only hath this power under the gospel : and therefore whosoever will challenge this power under the gospel , he must be the king of israel in the time of the gospel , which is peculiar only to jesus christ , unto whom all power in heaven and earth is given . and let it be here well observed , that by this opinion of yours you make the kingdom and ordinances of israel under the law , and the kingdom & ordinances of israel under the gospel all one ; directly contrary to the whole scripture : for the kingdom and ordinances of israel under the law were of this world , but the kingdom and ordinances of israel under the gospel are not of this world , as christ the king thereof himself testifieth , john 28. and therefore you setting up a worldly king over this heavenly kingdom and ordinances , you and all of your profession declare your selves to be of that worldly kingdom , and so to look for that heavenly and spiritual king yet to come in the flesh ; being of the number of those that deny him to be come in the flesh , and so are deceivers and antichrists , whatsoever you say to the contrary . ant. well , yet i cannot see , but that as the kings of israel had power from god to compel all their subjects to the worship then appointed ; so the king , being a christian king , hath power to compel his subjects to the worship now appointed . ch. you may see , if you shut not your eyes , that what power the kings of israel had under the law in matters of religion , christ jesus the king of israel hath under the gospel : but i pray let me ask you this question , you say the kings majesty hath this power as he is a christian king : my question is , whether it appertain unto him as he is a king , or as he is a christian ? ant. neither simply as he is a king , nor as he is a christian , but joyntly as he is compleat in them both : for i grant that no heathen king hath power to compel in matters of religion , but a christian king hath . ch. then you confess that if a christian king may be deprived of his christianity , ( for of his kingdom or kingly power , or any part thereof , i affirm he may not be deprived ) he hath lost this power you plead for , in compelling men in matters of religion : what say you to this ? ant. i confess if he may be deprived of his christianity , he hath not this power i plead for . ch. then i demand this question , whether every christian , without respect of persons , ought not to be subject to christs laws for his salvation ? ant. yes , it cannot be denyed . ch. christ hath given his censure , excommunication , for the salvation of every christian , that he that will not hear the church , is to be as a heathen and a publican ; that is , hath lost all right and title in christ , and in his church , till he repent . now i know it cannot be denyed , but every christian whatsoever is subject to sin , and so to excommunication , to be as an heathen , &c. if you say , that kings either are not subject to sin , and to impenitency therein , and so not to this censure of christ , of excommunication for their impenitent sin ; then consider what you make them , and god you make a lyer . if you grant ( as you cannot deny ) that kings as well as others , are subject to impenitent sin , and so to excommunication for the same ; then they being deprived of their christianity , by your own confession , they are deprived of power to compel in matters of religion , the which , if it were any part of their kingly power , they might be deprived of a part of their kingly power by being excommunicated . consider what a wicked doctrine you teach herein . ant. doth not the prophet say , that kings shall be nursing fathers , and queens nursing mothers to the church ? and also it is said , that kings shall hate the whore , make her desolate , eat her flesh , and burn it with fire . where we see , that kings that have power and authority , shall destroy antichrists kingdom , and nourish and cherish christs kingdom . ch. most true it is , the lord hath spoken it , and therefore it ought to be a great comfort to gods people : but what is this to the purpose in hand , namely , that kings may persecute the contrary-minded . the words of the prophet isaiah prove , that kings and queens that have formerly persecuted and destroyed the church , their hearts shall be turned by the power of gods word , to be lovers and preservers of the church . and the other place , rev. 17.16 . proves , that kings shall make that whore desolate , &c. not by their temporal authority or sword ( as some say , that make more shew of religion than you do , although themselves be now persecuted , yet , if kings were of their minds , would be as cruel as you , for they maintain the same thing ) but by the spirit of the lords mouth , and the brightness of his coming , 2 thess . 2.8 . for this kingdom of antichrist shall be destroyed without hand , dan. 8. 25. only by the everlasting gospel , the true armour indeed , wherewith the witnesses fight against the antichrist . as the kings majesty , acknowledgeth , apol. pag. 93. ant. you are so stiff against using of outward weapons in church matters , did not our saviour make a whip of small cords , and whip the buyers and sellers out of the temple ? and why may not we follow his example ? ch. in this and many other actions of christ our saviour , we are to consider him as the fulfiller and ender of the law ; as in the action of the passover , and sending him that was clensed of his leprosie , to offer to the priest the gift that moses commanded ; in which things we are not to imitate him ; for by him the ceremonies are fulfilled and abolished , and the everlasting gospel established , in the which we are to walk : and it were more than foolish to reason thus : christ whipped wicked men out of gods temple made with hands , with whips made of cord ; therfore we may whip wicked men out of gods temple made without hands , with whips made of cord . there is a wholsom doctrine to be collected from the type to the truth , as thus : christ drove out wicked men out of the temple made with hands , by a carnal or worldly whip ; so christ ( by his people ) must drive wicked men out of the temple made without hands , by a spiritual whip , even his word , which is called a whip or rod. rev. 2 27. and psal . 2.9 . so is excommunication , 1 cor. 4.21 . ant. if freedom of religion should be granted , there would be such divisions as would breed sedition and innovasion in the state. ch. thus when your shews out of the scripture are answered , then you run to conceits and imaginations , of sedition , innovasion , and the like , thinking thereby to disswade princes , and all that are in authority therefrom , knowing else your kingdom of iniquity would fall . but that it may appear to all that you deal deceitfully herein , let us consider first the scriptures ; secondly , behold the success , of suffering of religion free in other countries . and first , christ our saviour ( who is that prince of peace , isa . 9.6 . not of sedition ) hath taught , mat. 10 , and luk. 12. that he came not to send peace on the earth , but debate ; to divide five in one house , two against three , and three against two ; the father against the son , &c. and a mans enemies shall be they of his own houshold : and his desire is , that the fire of such sedition should be kindled . where we see , this prince of peace putteth difference in religion by preaching his gospel , which some receive as the savour of life unto them ; others refuse it , and so become enemies unto the truth , and witnesses thereof , as they did to christ jesus himself and his disciples , and as you do to me and others . secondly , behold the nations where freedom of religion is permitted , and you may see there are not more flourishing and prosperous nations under the heavens than they are . indif . the convocation of bishops , and the rest , have made a canon , that whosoever shall affirm that the kings majesty hath not the same power in causes ecclesiastical under the gospel , that the godly kings of israel had under the law , let him be excommunicated , ipso facto . ch. yes , they have so . in the beginning of his majesties reign , when they had gotten him sure unto them , of the which they so much doubted , as with my own ears i heard some of their chief followers say , when his highness was coming into england : now must steeples down , and we shall have no more high commission ! ( with a lamentation they spake it ) then they made this canon ; because their consciences are convinced , that they stand only by his power , and if his hand be turned , their spiritual power of darkness falleth to the pit of darkness , from whence it came , and whither it must go , though there be never so much means used for the supporting of it ; for the strong lord hath spoken it , revel . 18. as for their sending men to hell ( as they suppose ) with their ipso facto excommunications ; if they had no stronger weapons for the supportting of their kingdom , it would stand but a short space . if israel now were of this world , as it was under the law , then they said something ; but if it be not of this world , as it is not , john 17.14 . then the king of israel is not of this world ; for when this king came , the worldly israel knew him not . indif . i see evidently , that all are but cavels , and that no mortal man can make any man offer sacrifices under the new testament , until he be a believer and converted ; for he must be in christ before he may offer sacrifices ; for in christ only the father accepteth us . but what say you , have they not power to compel men to come to the place where the word is publickly taught , that they may be converted ? ch. well , then you see that the example of the kings of israel ( who had power to compel them to sacrifice , or to cut them off ) applyed to earthly princes , is gone , as a meer doctrine of man , and not of god. and for compelling men to hear , that they may be converted ; we can learn of no better than of him , who if we hear not we shall have a dreadfull recompence . he had all power in heaven and in earth for converting souls given unto him , and sent his disciples , as his father sent him , joh. 20.21 . charging them that when they should come into a city , &c. if they would not receive them nor their word , to shake off the dust of their feet for a witness against them , saying , it should be easier for sodom and gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city or house . and so the apostles went from city to city accordingly . here were no temples made with hands , nor worldly power to compel all to come unto them to hear the word of the lord , but they were commanded to go from city to city , and from house to house . indif . in those dayes the magistrates were vnbelievers , but the question is where magistrates are believers . ch. christ had all power needful for that work : if magistracy were a power needful for that work , then christ had not all power ; magistracy is gods blessed ordinance in its right place , but let not us be wiser than god to devise him a means for the publishing of his gospel , which he that had all power had not , nor hath commanded . magistracy is a power of this world ; the kingdom , power , subjects and means of publishing the gospel are not of this world . ant. a goodly thing indeed that men must go about the country to preach . ch. in your estimation it is base and contemptible ; your pomp and pride will not bear this ; it is more easie for you to hunt after promotion till you come to the highest , in getting to be chief bishop of bishops within these dominions , and then cometh your fall , full low , if you repent not : but the wisdom of god hath appointed the chiefest officers of christs kingdom , even the apostles , thus basely to go up and down to and fro to preach the gospel ; yea , that worthy apostle paul preached this gospel night and day with many tears openly and throughout every house , act. 20. indif . but if this be thus , as for my own part i am fully perswaded it is , then i see the high commission cannot stand ; for , as i take it , it is only for causes ecclesiastical . ch. so far as it is over church-matters , it is most unlawful : for the commission for judging and punishing of the transgressors of the laws of christs church is given to christ the monarch thereof , a part whereof he hath left to his disciples , which is no worldly commission or power , but only the power of the lord jesus , the uttermost of which commission is excommunication , 1 cor. 5. ant. the high commission is from the king , and dare you once call it into question ? ch. if i do take any authority from the kings majesty , let me be judged worthy my desert ; but if i defend the authority of christ jesus over mens souls , which appertaineth to no mortal man whatsoever , then know you , that whosoever would rob him of that honour , which is not of this world , he will tread them under foot : earthly authority belongeth to earthly kings , but spiritual authority belongeth to that one spiritual king , who is king of kings . ant. well , all your pleading will not serve your turn , either you must come to church , or else go to prison . ch. i have shewed you by the law of christ that your course is most wicked , to compel any by persecution to perform any service to god ( as you pretend . ) now i desire also to shew you , that the statute law of the land requireth only civil obedience , and his majesties writings , maintaining the oath of allegiance , testifie the same . the law of the land requireth , that whosoever cometh not to church , or receiveth not the sacraments , the oath of allegiance is to be tendred to them , which , that it may be manifest to all , that not only i , but all that profess the faith with me , are most willing to subscribe unto it in faithfulness and truth , i have thought good to express it . the words of the oath , anno 3 , jacobi regis . i a. b , do truly and sincerely acknowledge , profess and testifie , and declare in my conscience before god and the world , that our sovereign lord king james is lawful king of this realm , and of all other his majesties dominions and countries ; and than the pope neither of himself , nor by any other authority of the church or sea of rome , or by any other means with any other , hath any power or authority to depose the king , or to dispose of any his majesties kingdoms or dominions , or to authorize any forreign prince to invade or annoy him or his countries , or to discharge any of his subjects of their allegiance and obedience to his majesty ; or to give licence or leave to any of them to bear arms , raise tumults , or to offer any violonce or hurt to his majesties royal person , state or government , or any of his majesties subjects within his majesties dominions . also i do swear from my heart , that notwithstanding any declaration or sentence of excommunication , or deprivation made or granted , or to be made or granted by the pope or his successors , or by any authority derived , or pretended to be derived from him or his sea , against the said king , his heirs or successors , or any absolution of the said subjects from their obedience , i will bear faith and true allegiance to his majesty , his heirs and successors , and him and them will defend to the uttermost of my power against all conspiracies and attempts whatsoever which shall be made against his or their persons , their crown and dignity , by reason or colour of any such sentence or declaration or otherwise , and will do my best endeavour to disclose and make known unto his majesty , his heirs and successors , all treasons and traiterous conspiracies , which i shall know or hear of , to be against him or any of them . and i do further swear , that i do from my heart abhor , detest and abjure , as impious and heretical , this damnable doctrine and position , that princes which be excommunicated or deprived by the pope , may be deposed or murdered by their subjects , or any other whatsoever . and i do believe , and in conscience am resolved , that neither the pope , nor any person whatsoever , hath power to absolve me of this oath , or any part thereof , which i acknowledge by good and full authority to be lawfully ministred to me , and do renounce all pardons and dispensations to the contrary . and all these things i do plainly and sincerely acknowledge and swear , according to these express words by me spoken , and according to the plain and common sense and understanding of the same words , without any equivocation , or mental evasion , or secret reservation whatsoever . and i do make this recognition and acknowledgment heartily , willingly and truly , upon the true faith of a christian . so help me god. ant. this oath was intended for the papists , and not for you . ch. it is not so : for his majesty at the last session of parliam . anna 1609 , saith thus ; some doubts have been conceived anent the using of the oath of allegiance ; and that part of the act that ordains the taking thereof is thought so obscure , that no man can tell who ought to be pressed therewith , &c. and therefore if there be any scruple touching the ministring thereof , i would wish it now to be cleared , &c. and thereupon this statute was made , anno 7. regni regis iacobi , &c. chap. 6. towards the latter end . and if any person or persons whatsoever of , or above the age of eighteen years , do now stand , or at any time hereafter shall stand , and be presented , indicted , and convicted for not coming to church , or receiving the lords supper , according to the laws and statutes of this realm , before the ordinary , or any other having power to take such presentments or indictments ; or if the minister , petty constable or church-wardens , or any two of them , shall at any time hereafter complain to any justice of peace near adjoyning the place where any person complained of shall dwell , and the said justice shall find cause of suspition ; that then any one justice of peace , within whose commission or power any such person or persons shall at any time hereafter be , or to whom complaint shall be made , shall upon notice thereof require such person or persons to take the said oath . and that if any person or persons being of the age of eighteen years or above , shall refuse to take the said oath , duly tendered unto him or her , according to the true intent and meaning of this statute , that then the persons authorized by this law to give the said oath , shall and may commit the said offender to the common jayl , &c. where we see , that if any take the said oath at their first apprehension , they are not to be committed , or if they , being committed , take the said oath at the next open court , they are be set at liberty ; if they will not take the said oath , to be in a premunire , as is at large in the statute declared , and as is daily practised with papists and others . ant. the kings majesty requireth your allegiance to be testified by your coming to church . ch. i pray let me demand this question ; doth the king require my coming to church to worship and serve god , or to worship and serve the king ? if to worship and serve the king , i am ready to obey ; if to worship and serve god , which none can do but of conscience , the king himself saith he never intended to lay any thing to the charge of any for the cause of conscience ; and this coming to church being a cause of conscience , if not he , why do you lay any thing to my charge for the same ? and therefore you wrong his majesty in thus affirming ; for his highness requireth only my faithful allegiance to be testified by the aforesaid oath , and therefore hath ordained it , as i shall shew by his highness own testimony . if i should come to church , and not in conscience , but for other respects , as many papists and other hypocrites do , to god it were most abominable ; and what faithfulness can be hoped for in such towards , his majesties person and state ? can any godly wise man think that he that playeth the dissembling hypocrite with god , that he will do less with men , and will not work any villany , if it were in his power ? and therefore herein you compelling me by tyranny , to bring my body whereunto my spirit cannot be brought , you compel me to hypocrisie with god and man : for if my heart were not faithfull in sincerity to his majesties crown and dignity , as i take god to witness ( before whom i must be condemned or justified ) it is , these courses would rather harden my heart to work villany than otherwise . now for his majesties many testimonies in his writings , they are worthy to be recorded with thankfulness to the highest for guiding his heart and pen to write such things . in his apology for the oath of allegiance pag 4 , he saith ( speaking of such papists as took the oath of allegiance ) and i gave a good proof that i intended no persecution against them for conscience cause , but only desired to be secured of them for evil obedience , which for conscience cause they were bound to perform . and pag. 60. ( speaking of blackwel the arch-priest ) he saith , i never intended to lay any thing to the said arch-priests charge ( as i have never done to any ) for cause of conscience . and pag. 127. he saith , first , for the cause of their punishment , i do constantly maintain that which i said in my apology , that no man , either in my time , or in the late queens , ever dyed here for his conscience : for , let him be never so devout a papist ; nay , though he profess the same never so constantly , his life is in no danger by the law , if he break not out into some outward act expresly against the words of the law ; or plot not some dangerous or unlawful practice or attempt , &c. where we may see in short what is the whole sum that he requireth . and in his majesties speech at the last session of parliament , anno dom. 1609. where he saith he sheweth his subjects his heart , he saith thus ; i never found , that blood , and too much severity , did good in matters of religion : for , besides , it is a sure rule in divinity , that god never loves to plant his church by violence and bloodshed , natural reason may even perswade us , and daily experience proves it true , that when men are severely persecuted for religion , the gallantness of many mens spirits , and the wilfulness of their humours , rather than the justness of their cause makes them take a pride boldly to endure any torments , or death it self , to gain thereby the reputation of martyrdom , though but in a false shadow . a most undoubted truth ; which if be , ( as most manifest it is by the testimony of the holy ghost throughout christs testament , as before is proved ) then how cursed are all the rank of you that continually break this sure rule of god , thus confidently acknowledge by his majesty , planting your church by violence and bloodshed , forcing many thousands against their consciences to be of your church , and to receive your sacraments , by all the persecutions that would follow if they do not yeeld ; and those that fear god more than men , and dare not yeeld , casting them into noisom prisons , amongst most wicked blasphemers of god , to the wounding of their souls , dividing them from their wives , children and families , and from their callings , some an hundred miles and more , utterly consuming that substance they have , which sustaineth the blood of them , their wives and children ; seldom or never affording them release , but either by yeelding to you against their consciences , or else by consuming their bodies to death in prison , banishment , or the like , leaving them and their wives to horrible temptations of adultery , by parting them and their wives , and to all manner of evil , in taking them from their callivgs , and so leaving them in continual idleness . is gods church thus planted ? or , do christs disciples thus plant ? indif . oh i see this spiritual power is little inforiour cruelty to the romish spiritual power : i pray how , or when was this set up . ch. henry the eight casting off pope clement the seventh , and so the popes power , anno 1534 , set up this spiritual power under him . see acts and mon. pag. 1201 , &c. indif . i pray you shew the likeness between these two spiritual powers . ch. i will do my best endeavour , which is but small . first , the romish spiritual power doth make laws to the conscience , and compel all thereunto by excommunication , imprisonment , banishment , death , and the like . this spiritual power doth the like , upon the like penalties , as all know . the romish power doth give titles to his ministers , which are the titles of god and christ , as spiritual lords , great bishop , and many more . this spiritual power doth the like , as all know . the romish power doth set up lords over their brethren in spiritual things , unto whom they command honour , and great livings to be given , great pomp and pride . this power doth the like , as all know . i shall not need to speak of this , in that all books are full , and all consciences ( except those that are seared with hot irons ) convinced hereof . let but mr. fox , or any others , who have described the spiritual power rome , let but their description thereof be compared with this spiritual power , in all their laws , courts , titles , pomp , pride and cruelty , and you shall see them very little differ , except in their cruelties , which ( glory be to god ) the kings majesty , who thirsteth not after blood , hath something restrained ; although it is most grievous cruelty to lye divers years in most noisom and filthy prisons , and continual temptations of want , their estates overthrown , and never coming out ( many of them ) till death ; let it be well weighed , and it is little inferiour to the cruel sudden death in times of the romish power in this nation . indif . it is very apparant it is that image or similitude of that beast spoken of , revel . 13. ch. oh yes , for there is no such image of the popish power under the heavens as this . well , our comfort is , the strong lord hath said , the kings of the earth ( by whose power both the beast and his image is supported ) shall take their power from her , then shall she stand naked and desolate : and to this purpose his majesty hath a worthy exhortation to all princes , &c. in his apologie , pag. 103. the words are these : for as she did fly but with feathers , borrowing as well her titles of greatness , and forms of honouring her from you , as also enjoying all her temporal livings by your liberalities : so if every man do but take his own again , she will stand up naked &c. oh that the words of god might be accepted of his majesty , set down by the holy ghost , rom. 2. thou that teachest another , teachest thou not thy self ? for , if he would take but his own , their titles of greatness , and forms of honouring them , and their temporal livings , this spiritual power would stand very naked and desolate . indif . well , the hears of kings are in the hands of the lord , and he can turn them as the rivers of waters : but i desire your advice for my own estate : i know every one must bear their own burden , i have a long time remained subject to this spiritual power , partly through ignorance , and partly through fear . ch. i will first declare into you the judgments of god against such as submit thereunto , that so from an utter abhorring thereof you may come out , never to return thither again . secondly , i will do the best i can to shew you the way the lord requireth you to walk in , and that only out of his word . the judgments are so fearful as i tremble to think of them , greater than which is not manifested in the whole book of god , rev. 14.9 , 10 , 11 , and the third angel followed them , saying with a loud voice , if any man worship the beast and his image , and receive his mark in his forehead , or on his hand , the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of god , yea , of the pure wine that is poured into the cup of his wrath ; he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels , and before the lamb. and the smoak of their torments shall ascend evermore , and they shall have no rest day nor night , which worship the beast and his image , and whosoever receiveth the print of his name . indif . i confess these judgments are to be trembled at ; but how do you apply them properly to such as worship in these assemblies ? ch. for the satisfaction of all consciences herein , that it may appear plainly , not to be gain-said , let us consider the words of wisdom , set down in order as they lye . and first , what is meant by worship . 2ly , what is meant by the beast . 3ly , what his image is . 4ly , what his mark is . and lastly , what is meant by forehead or hand . and first , for whorship . it is plentifully manifested in the scriptures , that it is service , subjection , or obedience to such things as are commanded by god , or others , as mat 4.10 . exod. 20.5 . deut. 13.4 . and therefore his servants we are whom we obey , rom. 6.16 . and as the lord saith , if i be your master , where is my fear ? if a father , where is mine honour or worship ? mal. 1.6 . secondly , by beast , the scripture speaketh sometimes of cruel men in power and authority ; as dan. 7.17 . luke 13.31 , 32. 2 tim. 4.17 . sometimes of a blasphemous spiritual power exercised by men , received of the dragon exalting it self above god , making war with the saints , and overcoming them ; and that hath power over every kindred , and tongue , and nation , so that all that dwell upon the earth worship him , &c. and this is the beast here spoken of , even that spiritual power of jurisdiction of rome , which first wrought in a mystery , and by degrees was exalted , till at last it was exalted to this cruel beast , described revel . 13.1 , &c. which beast openeth his mouth to blasphemy against god , saying and practizing , that the commandments that god hath given for his service , are not to be regarded , but instead thereof , setteth up commands of his own , unto which whosoever will not be subject , excommunication and all cruelty , even unto death , will ensue , yea even with gunpowder ere it fail : and for this his cruelty he is called a beast . thirdly , by image is meant any form , shape similitude , or resemblance of the thing spoken of , as deut. 4.15 , 16 , &c. exod. 20.4 . so that wheresoever such a spiritual power is , as this above described , there is the beasts image , as in england : the like power or beast to the first , is not to be found under the heavens , in exaltation and cruelty . fourthly , by mark , is meant profession or practice , whereby we are know from others , as mat. 7.20.1 joh. 2.3 . joh. 13.35 . as badges of marks do put difference between this mans and that mans , in cattel or servants , as by such a mans mark we know these are his sheep , and by such a mans badg we know this man belongeth to such a great man : so they are said to have put on christ , that have received his baptism , gal. 3.27 . even as a servant is known by putting on his livery . lastly , forehead or hand ; the holy ghost useth that phrase from the old testament , where gods people were commanded , not only to lay up his commands in their hearts and in their souls , but to bind them for a sign upon their hands , that they might be as frontlets between their eyes , deut. 11.18 . and 6.6 , 8. the wisdom of god therein teaching , that the forehead and hand are the apparantest parts of the body , to the view of all men : so that to receive the mark in the forehead or hand , is to make manifest profession of him we obey . the sum of all which is , that whosoever openly professeth obedience and subjection to that spiritual cruel power of rome , the beast , or to that spiritual cruel power of england , his image , ( wheresoever they or either of them are exalted ) such a one , and such persons shall drink of the wine of gods wrath , and be tormented in fire and brimstone , and shall have no rest day nor night for evermore . indif . your description of the beast the papists will deny , so will the english lord bishops and their followess , deny your description of his image ; but thousands will grant both : and some will deny both , as the familists , who say , that religion standeth not in outward things , and therefore they will submit to any outward service , and they that do not so , but suffer persecution ( say they ) are justly persecuted . ch. those enemies to the cross of christ are most of them not worth information , because for the most part they are such as do with an high hand sin after enlightning , having forsaken the way wherein they walked , because they would not bear christs cross ; but in that some simple souls may be seduced by them , let us a little in general compare their opinion with the scriptures . true it is , that religion standeth not only in outward things , for god requireth the heart , and truth in the inward parts : but that god requireth not our subjection ( upon fearful punishments ) to those outward ordinances which he requireth , is a doctrine of devils , as i shall prove . and first , for the outward ordinances of the old testament , which were meerly shadows , and now are beggerly rudiments , gal. 4.16 . what indignation the lord had towards them that transgressed . nadab and abihu offering strange fire , which the lord hath not commanded , a fire went out from the lord and destroyed them , levit. 10.1 , 2. the men of bethshemesh looking into the outward ark , which god had forbidden , the lord slew fifty thousand and threescore and ten of them , 1 sam. 6.19 . vzza , of a good intent , leaning his shoulder to the same outward ark , which god forbad , the lord slew him , i chr. 13 7 — 10. vzziah the king oftering up outward incense , ( which god commanded to be done only by the priests , numb . 18.3 , 7. ) the lord smore him with leprosie until his death , 2 chron. 26. corah and his company , what fearful judgments came upon them ( though he a levite ) for presuming to meddle with the priests office , the earth opening and swallowing them up , numb . 16. king saul likewise offering up incense ( in time of need as he thought ) the lord rent his kingdom from him , 1 sam. 13. as also for his disobedience afterwards , touching the fat of the amalecks cattel , 1 sam. 15. how often was the wrath of the lord poured down upon them israelites , because of their transgression of his outward ordinances , in place , person , and things ? for it was a law , lev. 17.3 , 4. that who so brought not his sacrifice to the place , viz. to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation , but offered it up other where , blood should be imputed to that man , and he should be cut off from among his people : yea , such sacrifices were esteemed of god , as offered to devils , ver . 7. and the lord caused them to pronounce , ( deut. 27.26 . ) cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law , to do them : and all the people must say , so be it . was god thus jealous of moses's ordinances , and is he less jealous of christs ? must he dye that despiseth moses law , and shall he escape that despiseth christs , upon what pretence soever ? and christ saith , it becometh him , and all his , to fulfil all righteousness in outward ordinances , as washing with water , mat. 3.15 . and , whosoever saith , he knoweth god , and keepeth not his commandments , ( which are outward , aswell as inward ) he is a lyar , 1 job . 2.4 . and whosoever breaks the least commandment , and teacheth men so , he shall be , called the least in the kingdom of heaven , mat. 5.19 . and whosoever will not hear that prophet ( christ jesus ) in all things that he shall say unto them , shall be destroyed out of his people , acts 3.22 , 23. the affections of the soul are to be manifested by the actions of the body , according to gods word , and all other good intents or affections are abominable . we may not , neither can we worship god with our spirits , and the devil with our bodies ; for , we are bought with a price , and therefore must not be the servants of men ; but must glorifie god with our bodies , and with our spirits , for they are his , 1 cor. 6.20 . and 7.23 . and this may suffice to satisfie any concerning the overthrow of this cursed conceit , knowing also that christ and his apostles , and all his disciples to the end of the world , might , and may live peaceably enough from persecution , if this doctrine might be observed , viz. submission with our bodies to any outward service . the lord discover such hypocrites . indif . i bless god , i have learned of the apostle , 2 cor. 13.8 . to say nothing against the truth , but for the truth , and therefore when i see things are evidently manifested by the scriptures , am desirous to submit , and not to cavil . but you know it is pleaded , they have the word and sacraments in the english assemblies . ch. i confess they have the scriptures , in the which gods mysteries are contained , which are locked up from them , and revealed to his saints , col. 1.26 . which they wofully pervert to their own destruction : they have also imitations of gods ordinances , as water , bread , and wine , and other things , which they use after their own inventions ; which things make them boast so much of their christianity , and of their church , which makes them reason thus : we are gods people , for we have the word and sacraments . the philistims might better have reasoned , 1 sam. 5. who had the true ark of god amongst them ; ( these have but a shew ) we are gods people , for we have gods ark and holy oracles amongst us . but i think they had no great cause to rejoyce thereof in the end : no more shall these have in the end , when god recompenceth all that withhold the truth in unrighteousness . gods dealing is not now as it was of old , he now reserveth punishment to the last day , he is patient , and would have men repent : but they despise his bountifulness and long-suffering , preaching peace when there is no peace . indif . it cannot be denied , but that the ministers preach many excellent truths , and do bring people to much reformation in many things . ch. true , it cannot be denied . for , if the devil should come in his own likeness , men would resist him ; but because he transformeth himself into an angel of light , therefore he deceiveth . so his ministers , if they should teach all lyes , man would not be deceived by them , nor plead for them ; but because they teach many truths , people receive them . but first , for whatsoever they teach , they neither could nor should teach publickly , their mouths should be stopped , if they received not that their power to teach such truths from those the dragon sends ; and therefore none can receive those truths from them , but they receive the devil by whose power they teach : for , as our saviour saith , mat. 10.40 . he that receiveth you , receiveth me ; and he that receiveth me , receiveth him that sent me . so , he that receiveth those the beast sends , receiveth the beast ; and he that receiveth the beast , receiveth him that sent him , that is the devil . further. did not that southsayer balaam teach excellent truths ? numb . 23 & 24 chapters . yea , the southsayers of the philistims the like , 1 sam. 6. yea , those in the gospel preach in christs name , mat. 7.22 . as many moe testimonies might be manifested . and secondly , for their bringing of people to reformation , and therein doing great works . did not the southsayers , before recited , 1 sam. 6. shew the princes their sin in detaining gods ark , and the judgments against them for the same , exhorting them to send it away , and not to harden their hearts , as pharoah and the egyptians hardned their hearts ? and was not reformation wrought hereby ? and did not they that preached in christs name cast out devils , and do many and great works ? of whom our saviour testifieth , he never acknowledged them . but let us a little consider wherein the reformation consistech , procured by their preaching , in drunkenness , whoredom , swearing , &c. moral duties , which things whosoever is not reformed in , shall never see gods kingdom ; yet which things many of the philosophers ( that knew not god ) abounded in , as they that know the stories cannot deny . but do they teach their hearers to hate vain inventions , and love god's law ? in a general manner of teaching they may , but if it come to particular practice , you shall see what they will do . do they teach any to submit to that one law-giver , christ jesus , for the guidance of his church , and not to antichrists abominations ? no , they will tell you , you must sigh and groan , till the magistrate will reform ; for you are a private person , and must be subject : and if the powerful working of gods word and spirit prevail in you , to let you see , that the magistrates not reforming will not excuse you at the day of account , but that that soul that committeth abomination shall dye , and that rather than you will worship the beast or his image , you will suffer with christ peaceably , separating your self from such open prophanation as neither can nor will be reformed ; endeavouring to square your self both in your entrance , and walking in christs way , unto that golden rule that he hath left for direction : then the best of all those preachers and reformers will be hot and bitter , labouring with all the turning of devices to turn you , and withhold you from reformation : and if they cannot prevail hereby , then publish you in their priviledged pulpits , where none may answer them , you are a schismatick , brownist , anabaptist , and what not ? to make the multitude abhor your doings , and not to follow you therein ; and some of them ( if not all ) under a colour , procure your imprisonment and trouble by their canonized lords , or some of their hellish pursevants . and such preachers of reformation are the best of them all . indif . oh how have we been besotted in these things for want of true knowledge and understanding from the scriptures ! how have i and others satisfied our selves with these things , in that our estate was happy , perswading our selves thereof ! when alas , our fear towards god was taught by the inventions of men ; but the reason thereof was , we judged our selves by our own perswasions , and not by gods word . ch. i pray you let not that seem strange unto you , that people should perswade themselves of their good estate with god , when it is not so . the israelites , gods people , thought their estate good many times , when alas it was otherwise , as the prophets declared unto them ; yea , our saviour testifieth , that they boasted of god being their father , when they not so much as knew him , joh. 8.19 . yea , when they were of their father the devil , ver . 44. the five foolish virgins thought their condition good enough , and that they should have been let in , but it was otherwise , luke 20. the wicked thought they did god service that killed christs disciples , joh. 16.2 , mans heart is deceitful , jer. 17.9 . who are more confident of their good estate with god than the papists , notwithstanding all their gross abominations ? even so have you and i ( god pardon us ) thought beyond all , that we were in a good estate , having such zealous teachers , that teach so many excellent truths under the title of christs ministers , till we came to examine them , as the church of ephesus did , rev. 2. then we found them to have no other ministry than that they received from the beast and his image , which the dragon gave , rev. 13. indif . are all , without exception , in this fearful estate to be case into the lake , that burneth with fire and brimstone ? ch. all that submit , obey , or worship the beast without exception ; for there is no respect of persons with god. so saith the lord , if any man worship , &c. these worshippers under the beast's image may be divided into two sorts : first , those that ignorantly perswade themselves that all that is practised is good and acceptable to god : secondly , those that see and acknowledge many things to be evil , which they would gladly have removed ; but because they cannot without the crosss of christ , partly for that , and partly by the perswasion of their prophets ( that the things are not fundamental , and the like pretences ) all submit , and teach men so . indif . some affirm , there be thousands in england that never worshipped the beast , &c. but be careful to keep the commandments of god , and faith of jesus . ch. such are not under these judgments ; but if their meaning be of any that submit to these ordinances appointed for these assemblies , such teachers preach peace when there is none , strengthen the wicked that they cannot return from their wicked way , by promising them life , whose reward shall be according to the reward of such false prophets , ezek. 13.1 . and chap. 14.10 . because they follow their own spirit , and have not received it from the lord : for thus saith the lord , such shall drink of the wine of the wrath of god. indif . it is also affirmed by some , that in respect of personal graces , some of the professors ( as they are called ) are the children of god , and may be communicated with privately , though in respect of their church actions they are members of antichrists body , to whom are judgments of god appertaineth . ch. this opinion proceedeth not from gods word , but from man's vain heart , by the suggestion of the devil : which , that it may evidently appear , let us a little consider of it . in truth it is to say , that in one respect they have gods promises appertaining to them : in another respect they have gods most fearful torments ( pronounced against that beast , and that false prophet , rev. 19.20 . ) appertaining to them : in one respect they are gods people , serving him their master : in another respect the devils people , serving him their master : in one respect they shall be saved , in another respect they shall be damned . but what false doctrine this is , gods holy word doth discover . our saviour saith , no man can serve two masters ; ye cannot serve god and riches , mat. 6.25 . and can any serve christ and the beast , god and the dragon ? when christ shall come at the last day to give to every man according to his works , will he say to any one , in respect of thy personal graces i will save thee , come thou blessed , ( as he will say to all his children : ) but in respect of thy being a member of antichrists body , i will damn thee , go thou cursed , as he will to all that worship or obey the beast ? will not christ jesus pronounce absolutely either salvation or condemnation to every one ? and that according to this word , joh. 12.48 . so as god in his righteousness will either justifie or condemn every man : so hath he taught us to know , that no fountain can make salt water and sweet , jam. 3.12 . and therefore , that by mens fruits we should know and judge them to be not both good and evil trees at one time , as this opinion teacheth , but either good , or evil : alwayes taking heed , we justifie not the wicked , nor condemn the innocent , both which are abominable to the lord : and for any communion whatsoever with them ; what fellowship hath christ with antichrist , the righteous with the wicked , the servants of the lamb , with the servants of the beast ? but i leave this for further answer to thse , who although they are nearer to this man that hath published this opinion than i am , yet hath ( according to truth ) confessed in writing , that there is nothing to be expected from christ , by any member of the church of england , but a pouring out of his eternal wrath upon them . mr. de-cluse . advertis . pag. 9. indif . well , i praise god , i am much informed in these things ; yet one thing more i will desire your answer unto : the case standeth thus with me : in these things i am betwixt faith and doubting ; though the rather i believe these things you say are true , and that i may never go to these assemblies again without sin ; but i am not so perswaded thereof , that i dare suffer for it : what if i should ( not having faith to suffer ) for fear of persecution , go to their worship again ? ch. it were your most fearful sin , which i prove thus ; and i pray you observe it well : you must do it , either as being verily perswaded you do well , and then all this beginning of light in you should be extinguished , and so your estate is with the worst , if not worse : or else you must do it , doubting whether you do well or no : for i hope you will not say , you do it knowing you do evil . if you do it doubting , the lord saith , it is sin , rom. 14.23 . which i hope you will acknowledge , and not approve your self to do well in sinning , and then god is merciful to forgive your sin , either this or any other , 1 joh. 1.9 . but if you say , you sin not therein , doing it doubtingly , you make god a lyar , who saith , it is sin , and your sin remaineth . indif . what if i should many times go through weakness ? ch. if you unfainedly repent , being through weakness , there is mercy with god , though it should be seventy times seven times in a day , mat , 18.21 , 22. but we had need to take heed of our repentance . the apostle saith , where there is godly sorrow for sin , what care it worketh in you , yea , what indignation , &c. 2 cor. 7. and custom in sin is dangerous , we had need to take heed we be not hardned through the deceitfulness of sin , heb. 3.13 . indif . then you hold , that if any man approve himself in sinning , his sin remaineth . ch. if any man sin , and say he hath not sinned , there is no truth in him , 1 joh. 1.8 . and god will enter into judgment with him , jer. 2.35 . indif . then absolutely i see , that if any man worship the beast , or his image , &c. as before you have shewed , he neither hath faith nor fear of god in him , what shew of godliness soever he maketh . but what say you , may not a man that separateth from all uncleanness , though he yet see not the way of christ in his ordinances , may not such a man be saved ? ch. yes , upon this condition , that he believe in jesus christ for his only righteousness , and be willing and ready to hear and obey his ordinances ; an example hereof we have in cornelius , acts 10. but if any will not hear that prophet ( christ jesus ) in all things whatsoever he shall say unto them , they shall be destroyed out of his people , acts 3.22 , 23. indif . what do you mean by will not hear ? ch. that when any part of the way of god is manifested to them , they despise and contemn it , or carelesly neglect it ; otherwise men may not receive some of christs truth , and yet not be said , that they will not receive it . indif . next after forsaking the wayes of wickedness , and imbracing christ for our righteousness , what must we do ? ch. christs whole testament teacheth this , and no other way , after repentence from dead works , and faith towards god , to be baptized with water , matth. 16.16 . acts 2.41 . and 8.12 , 38. and 9.18 . and a cloud of witnesses , calling these the beginnings of christ , and foundation , heb. 6.1 , &c. indif . may none be admitted to the church to partake in the ordinances , except they be baptized ? ch. if any teach otherwise , he presumeth above what is written , 1 cor. 4.6 . and therefore ought to be held accursed , gal. 1.8 , 9. for there was never true church , since christ was manifested in the flesh , joyned together of unbaptized persons , though some have vainly published the contrary . indif . true , i think that cannot be denyed , where the persons were never baptized ; but now the members of the church of rome , from whence the baptism of the church of england cometh , are baptized , therefore why need they again be baptized ? ch. if they be baptized with christs baptism , i will acknowledge they need not again be baptized : but that the baptism of the church of rome is christs baptism , that can never be proved ; for christ requireth that only his disciple should baptize his disciple , and into his body : none of which is in romes baptism : for christs adversaries wash with water , those that are not christs disciples , into the body , not of christ , but of antichrist . indif . i confess that the church of rome , and members thereof , are the church and members of antichrist , but they use the water and words in their baptism that christ appointed . ch. what then ? is it therefore christs baptism ? the conjurers used the same words that the apostles did , acts 19.13 , &c. we adjure you by the name of jesus , &c. yet abominable was their action . also , psal . 50. unto the wicked said god , what hast thou to do with my ordinances , or to take my word in thy mouth , &c. also the papists use the same words in their church , that christ hath appointed to be used in his , as also in their ministry , is it therefore christs church and ministry ? they use also the same words , and washing with water , in baptizing their bells , that they use in baptizing their infants , is it therefore christs baptism ? if answer be made , bells are not to be baptized . i answer , no more are the seed of wicked persecutors , by our opposits own confession . if this were any thing , you should see what would follow : the baptism of rome is christs baptism , because they use water and these words ; so if any use water and these words , as the jews , or any other of christs adversaries ( as the papists are ) then there is christs baptism . consider this , and see what truth there is in it . indif . though the baptism of the church of rome should be naught , yet the baptism of the church of england may be good , in that there be many thousands that were never baptized in the church of rome . ch. i answer , that the first beginning of the church of england was made of the members of the church of rome , as is apparant in the dayes of king henry the eight , and afterwards in the beginning of queen elizabeths reign , after qu. maries death , and so continueth unto this day ; and the long continuance of it , makes it not approvable . and the papists themselves bid the protestants prove if they have , or hold any other baptism , church , or ministry , than that they have from them , and shew it , and they will recant . besides , the baptism now practised in the church of england , is no better , no otherwise than that of rome : for the church of rome baptizeth all the infants of the most wicked that are in her dominions ; and so the church of england baptizeth all the infants of the most wicked that are in the kings majesties dominions ; and of this timber are both these churches built ; and therefore we may truly say , as is the mother , so is the daughter . and as they are in their first building , so they are in most of their laws , lords , law-makers , courts , and thousands of their abominations , insomuch that it is plain enough , the latter is the very image of the first ; unto which , whosoever submitteth , or obeyeth , or maintaineth their baptism , or any other of their humane trash , he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone for evermore , and shall never have rest day nor night , rev. 14. and therefore in gods fear cast away that cursed action of washing , where was neither christs disciple administring , nor his disciple upon whom it was adminstred , nor christs body or church baptized into : and obey christs voice , in becoming his disciple , and to his church , that you may be baptized by his disciple , and be made a member of his body or church . this only is christs baptism , and of him acknowledged , and ought to be of all his disciples , and the contrary to be held accursed , and in no sort maintained or kept . indif . it is objected , that we must cast away that which is mans ordinance , and retain that which is gods ordinance , namely , washing , and water , and words . ch. i deny that any thing in that action was gods ordinance or appointment : what truth is there in this , to say , that because god appointeth water , and washing , and words in his baptism , therefore howsoever water , and washing and these words are used , that is christs ordinance ? i confess , water , and washing , and words are gods ordinance , being used as he hath commanded , the which i acknowledge must be held ; but this use of them , or action fore-spoken of being not the use of them , or action appointed of god ( as the adversaries confess ) is to be cast away as execrable . indif . further , it is objected , they repent of that which is evil , and retain that which is good . ch. for the better discovering of this deceit , let us consider what is the evil they confess and that they repent of : say they , an unlawfull person performed an unlawful action upon an unlawful person , this is the evil . now this is the question , whether this action , thus unlawfully performed may be kept , and yet repented of ? the scripture teacheth , that not only confessing , but forsaking sin ; in repentance , pra. 28.13 . can a thief that hath stolen goods , repent thereof to acceptance with god , and not make restitution to the party wronged ? being in his power , or having ability to restore ; i would know how this will be maintained ? for the one is a greater theft than the other . indif . it is further objected , that jeroboams followers had no right to circumcision in their idolatrous estate , yet such as were circumcised in that estate , were not afterwards circumcised when they came to repentance . ch. it is their forgery so to object : for , either they had right to circumcision , being true israelites , although in transgression , or else none had right to circumcision in the world , no not judah : for , what can be said , but that because the ten tribes were in rebellion against god , therefore they had no right to circumcision ? may not the same be said in as high a measure of judah ? was israels sin half so great as judahs ? if it be said , that israel forsook the place of gods worship , the temple ; so did judah too , worshipping under every green tree , and grove , and high place : whatsoever can be said of the one , as much may be said of the other . this is a meer deceitful forgery , raised up by satan in the hearts of his false prophets , to deceive themselves , and them that shall perish , if they repent not , in that they receive not the love of the truth , but believe these lyes , and have pleasure therein ; concluding from this false ground , that because the israelites in transgression were circumcised , and after coming to repentance were not circumcised again : so egyptians , sodomites and babylonians , never having been israelites , baptized in the synagogues of satan , are not to be rebaptised ( as they call it ) there being no comparison betwixt the persons ; the one being true israelites according to the flesh , gods people , to whom by gods appointment circumcision appertained , & who should have increased their transgressions if they had not performed it ; and the other true babylonians , gods adversaries , unto whom god threatneth his judgements , for taking his ordinances in their mouthes or hands . indif . i see indeed there is no true proportion betwixt the persons in circumcision and baptism ; for the one were the persons appointed of god to be circumcised , which circumcision taught them the forsaking of their wickedness , and bound them to the observation of the law , gal. 5.3 . and they had no cause to repent of that their action : the other are not the persons appointed of god to be baptized , but sinned in that their action , and must repent thereof , by your opposits own confession . but if this be granted , this question ariseth , who shall then baptize after antichrists exaltation ? ch. for answer to this : there are three wayes professed in the world ; one by the papists , and their several successors , professing succession from the pope and his ministers : another by the familists and scattered flock , that none may intermeddle therewith lawfully , till their extraordinary men come : another , we and others affirm , that any disciple of christ , in what part of the world soever , coming to the lords way , he by the word and spirit of god preaching that way unto others , and converting , he may and ought also to baptise them . the two former i shall through the help of god confute , and confirm the latter by the scriptures . first , to the papists and all their several successors , some standing for all by succession from rome , some for more , some for less , some for nothing but baptism , being of our judgement for the appointing of their ministry . to them all i answer with the words of the lord , psa . 50.16 . what have antichrists ministers to do to take gods word in their mouths , or to declare his ordinances , seeing they hate to be reformed , and have cast gods word behind their backs ? if they have nothing to do with his word and ordinances , then not with ministry and baptism . besides , god hath forbidden that the adversaries of him , his temple , and them that dwell in heaven , should build , according to that of nehem. 2.20 . the god of heaven he will prosper us , and we his servants will rise up and build ; but as for you , you have no portion , nor right , nor memorial in jerusalem . secondly , to that fantastical sect i answer ; it is their dream and false vision to look for extraordinary men , for god hath not spoken it : for if an angel from hevven should come and preach otherwise than those extraordinary men the apostles have preached , which none else could preach , and which is written in christs testament , we are to hold them accursed , gal. 1.8 , 9. which truth none need go into heaven to seek , but every one that searcheth the scriptures may find by the direction of the holy ghost , which god hath promised to all that obey him , acts 5. and ask it , mat. 6.1 . indif . now i pray you let me hear your confirmation of your practice . ch. as it was in the second building of the material temple , after the captivity of babylon in caldea ; so , according to the true proportion , it is to be in the second building of the spiritual temple after the captivity of spiritual babylon . now this is to be observed in the former , that every israelite , with whom the lord was , and whose spirit the lord stirred up , was commanded to go and build , ezra 1.3 , 5. though some were more excellent in the business than others . so now , every spiritual israelite with whom the lord is , and whose spirit the lord stirreth up , are commanded to go and build , and the lord will prosper them in rising up and building , though some be more excellent in the business than others ; the beginning of which spiritual building , is , first to beget men anew by the immortal seed to gods word , so making them living stones , and thereupon to comple them together a spiritual house unto god , 1 pet. 2. upon the confession of their faith by baptism , as the scriptures of the new testament every where teach , as before is shewed . indif . it is confessed of many , that any that have gifis may preach , and convert , but not baptize . ch. such our saviour accounteth hypocrites , and reproveth , mat. 23. that held it was lawful to swear by the temple , but not by the gold on the temple ; by the altar , but not by the offering on the altar : to whom he saith , wether is greater , the gold , or the temple that sanctifieth the gold ? the offering , or the altar that sanctifieth the offering ? so may i say , whether is greater , the water and washing , or the word that sanctifies the water ? indif . what other example have you in the scriptures , that an unbaptized person may baptize ? ch. if there were no other than that afore-mentioned , it were sufficient . an israelite circumcised in flesh , god stirring up his heart , was to build the temple made with hands , from the first stone to the last ; so an israelite circumcised in heart , god stirring him up , is to build the temple made without hands , from the first stone to the last , beginning with , go , preach and baptize , teaching to observe all that god commands , as christ teacheth his disciples to the end of the world . but further , we have the particular example of john baptist , who being unbaptised , preached , converted , and baptised . indif . but john baptist was an extraordinary man , it will be objected , for god spake to him extraordinarily . ch. what then , is not his practice written for our instruction ? god hath spoken at several times after sundry manners , heb. 1.1 , &c. yet all to one end . as for this of john baptist , the same god that spake to john baptist in the wilderness his word , the same god speaketh to us in his scriptures the same word he spake to john ; and therefore seeing the lord hath spoken , who shall not preach and practise according to his word ? seeing now god speaketh to no particular persons ; for whatsoever things were written afore time , were written for every mans instruction , rom. 15.4 . indif . many famous men , as mr. perkins and others confess , that if a turk should come to the knowledge of the truth in turkey , he might preach the same to others , and converting them , baptize them , though unbaptized himself . ch. true , but this mystery of iniquity so prevaileth , perswading many that they are christians , because they had baptism in their infancy , when it appertained not to them , that they think their case is better than the turks , though alas , it is much worse ; for it shall be easier for the turks than for them , if gods vvord be true . are not all jews and gentiles in one estate by nature ? and is there more than one way of coming to christ for them both , namely , to be the sons of god by faith , and to put on christ by baptism ? gal. 3.26 , 27. who hath set up his new way , christ or antichrist ? indif . many of those called brownists do confess , that they are reasonably perswaded , that antichristians coming to the truth may be baptized ; and they would not differ with you concerning that , but that you deny infants baptism ; what say you , may not the infants of the faithful be baptized ? ch. no , except god have appointed it . indif . you know it is granted , that there is neither plain command nor example for it in christs testament , but from the consequence of circumcision , in that covenant that god made with abraham and his seed , gen. 17. and other places agreeing therewith . ch. let us endeavour to put an end to this , if it may be in short . i demand of you , what covenant the lord meanthe here ? it must be granted , he meaneth , either the covenant of the land of canaan , with all the promises thereof ; or the covenant of christs coming of his lyons concerning the flesh ; or else the covenant of life and salvation by christ : one of these three it must needs be . let me have your answer , or any mans hereto . indif . the first and second cannot be pleaded , therefore it must be the third , namely , life and salvation by christ . ch. vvell , then i demand , have the fleshly children of the faithfull more priviledge to life and salvation than the faithful themselves ? indif . no , i think it cannot be said . ch. vvell , then i affirm that the faithful have right to this covenant of life and salvation only upon their repentance and faith , and not otherwise ; and so have their children , and not otherwise ; except you will say they have greater priviledge thatn the faithful ; or else , that they have life and salvation by their parents faith ; or else , that they have right and title to it , whether they repent and believe or no. if any say they have right and title to it by gods promise . i answer , god hath promised life and salvation by christ to none that are under condemnation , but only by repentance and faith : let any shew the contrary if they be able . if any say , as some foolishly have done , being urged , that it is the covenant of the visible church : what covenant is that but the covenant of life and salvation made to the faithfull , christ body and church ? and therefore , seeing they are so confounded herein , some teaching one thing , and some another ; some that infants have neither faith nor repentance , but by vertue of the covenant made to their parents : others teach , that repentance and faith is to be performed of every one that is to be baptised , and that infants may repent and believe by their sureties till they come to age themselves : seeing , i say , they are thus confounded herein , having nothing in christs perfect testament , only some shew of a forged consequence , and also that they agree not amongst themselves ; let us take heed of prophaning the lords holy ordinance , administring it where he hath not commanded . many other things might be said , but this may suffice , seeing much is already written , and more may be ere long , knowing they have nothing to say but their several conceits . indif . i praise god you have given me great satisfaction in these things ; what must we do after our baptism ? ch. as the saints our predecessors did , they that glady received the word , were baptized , and they continued in the apstles doctrine , fellowships , breaking of bread , and prayers , acts 2. walking in fear towards god , and in love in word and deed one towards another , according to the blessed rules in christs testament ; and also justly and unblamably towards all men , that they may cause their conversation aswell as their doctrine to shine before men , that men may see their good works , and glorifie their father which is in heaven ; without the which conversation all profession is nothing . indif . it is a great stumbling-block to many , that divers who profess religion , walk corruptly in their conversation , it is a great cause that the wicked open their mouthes against gods truth . ch. alas , it is most lamentable ! but gods people must know , it hath been and will be so unto the end of the world : and therefore christ jesus hath appointed means for the redressing thereof in his church , mat. 18. and 1 cor. 5 , &c. and we may not justifie or condemn any religion whatsoever by mens personal walkings . may we say , the religion of the philosophers was good because of their moral vertues ? or , that the religion that judah and david professed was evil , because of judahs incest , and davids adultery and murder , gen. 38. & 2. sam. 11. or the religion of christ evil , because that one that professed it , fell into incest , i cor. 5. gods people had need to take heed of sinning , whereby to cause the adversaries to blaspheme , for the which god may make them examples to all succeeding ages . ind. i give you hearty thanks for your pains with me in these things , and i trust i shall not let them slip , but remember them all may life , and put them in practice . ch. the glory and thanks thereof only belongeth to god , for to him it is due ; but this i desire you to consider , that the knowing of the will of god , without practising of it , doth us rather hurt than good ; the scripture saith , not the knowers , but the doers are justified , rom. 2.13 . jam. 1.12 . and , he that knows his masters will and doth it not , shall be beaten with many stripes . many there be in this nation ( with grief of soul i speak it ) that acknowledge and confess the truth , but praclise it not , for some respects or other ; the lord perswade all your hearts to the speedy practice thereof , and that by many examples that are left unto you . david that man of god saith , i made haste , and delayed not to keep thy commandments , psal . 119.60 . the disciples , mat. 4. immediately without tarrying followed christ . the three thousand , the same day they were informed , obeyed the lord , and were baptized , acts 2. the samaritans , acts 8.12 . assoon as they believed were baptized , both men and women . the eunuch likewise , ver . 38. the jaylor , lydia , paul , and a cloud of witnesses , communing not with flesh and blood , but obeyed the lord assoon as they believed . here was no staying to hear what this , and that learned man could say against it , as now a dayes , but as they were confidently perswaded thereof , they obeyed . and so i am assured it shall be by little and little , as the kingdom of the beast diminisheth . indif . i hope i shall testifie to all , my speedy walking in the steps of these holy men ; but one thing there is yet which bath much troubled me and others , and in my judgment hat much hindred the growth of godliness in this kingdom , and that is , that many , so soon as they see or fear trouble will ensue , they flie into another nation who cannot see their conversation , and there by deprive many poor ignorant souls in their own nation , of their information , and of their conversation amongst them . ch. oh! that hath been the overthrow of religion in this land , the best able and greater part being gone , and leaving behind them some few , who by the others departure have had their afflictions and contempt increased , which hath been the cause of many falling back and of the adversaries exalting : but they will tell us , we are not to judge things by the effects , therefore we must prove that their flight unlawful , or we say nothing . and frist whereas it is said by some of these flyers , that many of the people of god fled into forreign countries , and that god gave approbation thereof , as moses , david , our saviour christ in his infancy , and other , thinking hereby to justifie this their flight . i answer , god preserved moses and the rest in their flight , till the time was come that he imployed them in his service , then in no case he would suffer them to flie ; as when moses manifested his exceeding backwardness to the lords work , in helping his people out of bondage , using many excuses , the lord was very angry with him , exod. 4.10 — 15. and whither out saviour flie when the time came that he was to shew himself to israel ? luk. 1.80 . if any of these men can prove the lord requireth no work at their hands to be done for his glory , and the salvation of thousands of ignorant souls in their own nation , let them stay in foreign countries . but i trust gods people have learned , not to say , the time is not yet come that babel should be destroyed , and the lords house builded , but that the time is come to build the lords house , and not to dwell in ceiled houses , hag. 1. or any way to seek our outward promotion ; which if it be granted , that the time is come , not only to come out of babel , but to destroy her , all these objections are nothing ; except they prove , that when god called any of his people to his work , they left it for fear of trouble . this doctrine was not approved of god when the time came that his adversaries were to be rooted out , and that his people had gotten some victory . the rubenites and the gadites could have been content to have remained to their most peace and commodity , num 32. but moses said unto them , shall your brethren go to war , and ye tarry here ? where fore now discourage ye the hearts of the children of israel , &c. sharply reproving them , as an increase of sinful men , risen upon their fathers steads still to augment the fierce wrath of the lord ; and moses would not be satisfied until they had promised that they would go with their brethren to the lords work , and would not return to their houses till they had accomplished the same . and the angel of the lord doth say , curse ye meroz , curse the inhabitants thereof , because they came not to the help of the lord , to help the lord againsst the mighty , judg. 5.23 . also , because the men of jabesh gilead came not up to the lord , to help their brethren against the wicked men of gibeath , all the men were destroyed , and all the women that had lien by men , judg. 21.11 , no excuse whatsoever could serve . did god thus respect his work and people then , as all must put to their helping hand , and none must withdraw their shoulder lest others were discouraged ; and is there no regard to be had thereof now , but any occasion , as fear of a little imprisonments , or the like , may excuse any , both from the lords work , and the help of their brethren , that for want of their society and comfort are exceedingly weakned , if not overcome ? if answer be made , they perform their duty in both , that they do the lords work ; the pastor feeding his flock , and the people walking in fellowship one towards another . i demand , doth the lord require no more work of them ? doth he not require that they should help to cast down babel ? if reply be made , they do it by their books . i answer , that may be done , and their lights shine by their mouthes and conversations also among the wicked , which is the greatest means of converting them , and destroying antichrists kingdom : they overcame ( not by flying away , but ) by the blood of the lamb , and by the word of their testimony , and they loved not their lives unto the death , rev. 12.11 . gods people are the lights of the world , a city set on a hill , a candle set on the candlestick , giving light to all that come in , mat. 5 and therefore must shine by their persons , more than by their books . and great help and encouragement would it be to gods people in affliction of imprisonment and the like , to have their brethrens presernce to administer to their souls or bodies , and for which cause christ will say , i was in prison , and ye visited me ; in distress , and ye comforted me ; and unto those that do not so according to their ability , go ye cursed , mat. 25. if men had greater love to gods commands , or the salvation of thousands of ignorant souls in our nation , that for want of instruction perish , than to a little temporal affliction , they would never publish nor practise as they do in this thing . thus have i in short shewed you my poor ability in these things . and for all other things we hold ; as the lawfulness of magistracy , gods blessed ordinance : and christ our saviour taking his flesh of the virgin mary , by the wonderful work of the holy ghost , &c. you may see them in our confession in print , published four years ago . indif . many that be called anabaptists hold the contrary , and many other strange things . ch. we cannot but lament for it ; so did many in christs churches in the primitive times hold strange opinions ; as some of the corinths denyed the resurrection ; and in many of the seven churches were grievous things , which the lord by his servants warned them of , upon pain of his displeasure and removing of his presence from them ; nevertheless , others professing the same general cause of christ , were commended . indif . well , you will yet be called anabaptists , because you deny baptism to infants . ch. so were christians before us called sects : and so they may iohn baptist , jesus christ himself , and his apostles anabaptists ; for we profess and practise no otherwise herein , than they , namely , the baptizing of such as confess with the mouth the belief of the heart . and if they be anabaptists that deny baptism where god hath appointed it , they , and not we are anabaptists . but the lord give them repentance , that their sins may be put away , and never laid to their charge , even for his christs sake . amen . an humble supplication to the kings majesty ; as it was presented , 1620. to the high and mighty king , james , by the grace of god , king of great brittain , france , and ireland . to the right excellent and noble prince , charles , prince of wales , &c. to all the right hanorable nobility , grave and honorable judges , and to all other the right worshipful gentry , of all estates and degrees , assembled in this present parliament . right high and mighty , right excellent & noble , right honourable , and right worshipful ; as the consideration of that divine commandment of the king of kings ( let supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks be made for kings , and for all that are in authority , that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life , in all godliness and honesty ) doth cause in us a daily practice thereof in our secret chambers for you all , as in duty we are bound , of which the searcher of all hearts beareth us witness ; so let it be pleasing unto your majesty ; and the rest in authority , that we make humble supplications and prayers to you , for such our bodily miseries and wants as are upon us ; in that it is in your power to redress them ; and especially at this present in this high meeting , assembled for the publick weal of all your loyal subjects . our miseries are long and lingring imprisonments for many years in divers counties of england , in which many have dyed and left behind them widows and many small children : taking away our goods , and others the like , of which we can make good probation ; not for any disloyalty to your majesty , nor hurt to any mortal man , ( our adversaries themselves being judges ) but only because we dare not assent unto , and practise in the worship of god , such things as we have not faith in , because it is sin against the most high , heb. 11.6 . rom. 14.23 . as your majesty well observeth in these words : it is a good and safe rule in theology , that in matters of the worship of god , quod dubitas , ne fereris , according to pauls rule , rom. 14.5 . let every man be fully perswaded in his own mind . medit. on lo. prayer . if we were in error herein , these courses of afflicting our bodies for conscience cause , are not of christ , but of antichrist , as hereafter is most plainly shewed ; and if no church be the rule of faith , but only the holy scriptures ; as the learned protestants do truly confess , and that therefore the doctrine of the church of rome ( that all must believe as the church believes , and so practise , or else be cruelly persecuted ) be most ungodly , as it is : then how can they avoid the like censure that practise the same thing , contrary to their own judgement ? for the learned protestants do say , it is high cruelty for the papists to constrain them to practise those things in gods worship which they have not faith in , nay , which they know to be evil , with imprisonment , fire and faggot : and therefore why may not we say , it is great cruelty for the learned prorestants to constrain us to practise such things in gods worship , which we have not faith in ? nay , which we certainly know to be evil , with lingring imprisonment , loss of goods , and what other cruelties they can procure against us of your majesty and the civil state. if your learned say , they have the truth , and we are in errour ; that resteth to be tryed by the true touchstone , the holy scriptures . if they be our judges , the verdict must needs go against us . if their sayings be a safe rule for us to be saved by , we will rest upon them ; and then why may not the saying of the papists be sure also , and they be the protestants judges ? and so bring us all to believe as the church believes . the iniquity of which we have discovered as briefty as we could ; beseeching your majesty and all that are in authority , to hear us . it concerneth our eternal salvation , or condemnation , and is therefore of great importance ; for what can a man give for the ranfom of his soul ? oh he pleased to remember the saying of that great and good man job , chap. 29. i delivered the poor that cryed , and the fatherless , and him that had none to help him : the blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me , and i caused the widows heart to rejoyce . i was a father to the poor , and when i knew not the cause , i sought it out diligently . i brake also the jaws of the unrighteous man , and pluckt the prey out of his teeth . our prayers are , and shall be for you day and night , to that god of glory , by whom you reign and are advanced , that he will pat it into your hearts to let these things enter into your thoughts , and then we doubt not ( the evidence of them being such ) that you will be moved to repeal and make void all those cruel laws ( which we most humbly beseech ) which persecute poor men only for matters of conscience ; not that we any way desire for our selves or others , any the least liberty from the strict observation of any civil , temporal , or humane law , made or to be made , for the preservation of your majesties person , crown , state or dignity ; for , all that give not to caesar that which is his , let them bear their burden : but we only desire , that god might have that which is his , which is the heart and soul in that worship that he requireth , over which there is but one lord , eph. 4.5 . and one law-giver , who is able to save it , or to destroy it , jam 4.12 , which no mortal man can do . it is not in your power to compel the heart ; you may compel men to be hypocrites , as a great many are , who are false-hearted both towards god and the state ; which is sin both in you and them . the vileness of persecuting the body of any man only for cause of conscience , is against the word of god and law of christ : it is against the profession of your majesty ; against the profession and practice of famous princes ; the antient and later approved writers witness against it ; so do the puritans ; yea , the establishers of it , the papists themselves inveigh against it : so that god and all men do detest it , as is herein shewed . and therefore in most humble manner , we do beseech your majesty , your highness , your honours , your worships , to consider of it , and do as god directeth you in his word , that cannot lye ; let the wheat and tares grow together in the world until the harvest , matth. 13. and so in humble manner we proceed . chap. i. the rule of faith is the doctrine of the holy ghost contained in the sacred scriptures , and not any church , council , prince or potentate , nor any mortal man whatsoever . proved , by the scriptures themselves , which are the writings of moses and the prophers , the evangelists and apostles ; these are a sufficient rule alone to try all faith and religion by : our reasons are , 1. they are inspired of god , and are able to make us wise unto salvation , and perfect to every good work , 2. tim. 3.15 , &c. 2. because these writings are written , that we might have certainly of the things whereof we are instructed , luke 1.4 . that our joy might be full , 1 joh. 1.4 . and that we might believe , and in believing might have life , john 20.31.3 . we are commanded not to presame ( or be wise ) above what is written , 1 cor. 4.6 . for , with this weapon christ put to flight the devil , mat. 4.4 . and taught his disciples , luke 24.27 , 46. and paul taught christ jesus , acts 17.2 . the godly are commended for searching the scriptures , acts 17.11 . all are commanded to search them , john 5.39 . and they that will not believe these writings , will not believe christs words , john 5.47 . nor one that should come from the dead , luke 16.31 . if any ask how we know all , or any of these scriptures to be inspired of god ? we answer , the ear ( saith job 12.11 ) discerneth words , and the mouth tasteth meat for it self ; and as the eye discerneth the light of the sun , so doth our spirit discern these scriptures to be inspired of god , and that for these reasons : 1. in regard of the majesty , wisdom and grace of them from all other writings ; for there is a great glory in these scriptures , as in the making of this wonderful world , which is most evidently discerned , heb. 11.1.2 . by their teachings , which excel all humane teachings , leading us from satan , from this world and our selves , to god , to holiness , faith , love , fear , obedience , humility . 3. the true events of them , or fulfilling of the prophesies contained in them . 4. the consent and agreement of all the parts of them , the like whereof cannot be shewed of so many several writers since the world began . 5. the admirable preservation thereof against time and tyrants ; all which could not extinguish them . 6. the devil and his instruments rage against those that practise the doctrines contained in them . 7. the conversion of thousands to god , by the power of their doctrine . 8. the vengeance that hath come upon such as have not obeyed them . 9. the acknowledgment of them by the very professed adversaries thereof . 10. the miracles confirming them from heaven . 11. the fight of a saviour to man is only by and from them . and lastly , the simplicity of the writers and plainness of the writings ; for god hath chosen the mean , contemptible and despised , to manifest unto the world his mysteries , 1 cor. 1. these are sufficient to perswade , that those holy writings are inspired of god , and so able to make wise unto salvation , and perfect to every good work , these scriptures contain the law and testimony ; and if any church , council , prince or potentate speak not according to this word , it is because there is not light in them , isa . 8.20 . and we are commanded to hold them accursed , gal. 1.8 , 9. for , whosoever shall adde unto these things , god shall adde the plagues written herein ; and whosoever shall take away from these things , god shall take his name out of the book of life , and out of the holy city , and from those things that are written , revel , 22. much by us shall not need to be written on this subject , the thing is so evident , and so generally acknowledged , at least in words , ( excepting the papists , with whom we have not here to do ) only we will adde some humane testimonies . whites way to the church , dedicated to two bishops , pag. 12. the learned protestants affirm and prove , that it is the doctrine of the church of england , artic. 6 chap. that the scripture comprehended in the old and new testament , is the rule of faith so far , that whatsoever is not read therein , or cannot be proved thereby , is not to be accepted as any point of faith , or needful to be followed ; but by it all doctrines taught , and the churches practice must be examined , and that rejected which is contrary to it , under what title or pretence soever it come unto us . and further they say , p. 1. that the pope , or any mortal man should be the rule that must resolve in questions and controversies of faith , is an unreasonable position , void of all indifferency ; when common sense teacheth , that he that is a party , cannot be judge . and again , pag. 17. — which is the church is controversal , which is the scriptures is not ; therefore let that be the rule which is out of doubt . and again , the scriptures contain the principles of our faith , and shall we not believe them ? or , cannot we know them infallibly of themselves , without we let in the authority of the church ? this , and much more , the learned protestants have written , and sufficiently confirms , that no church nor man whatsoever may be the judge , rule or umpier in matters of faith , but only the holy scriptures ; and whosoever teacheth and practiseth otherwise , they must hold and maintain the papists , creed , or colliers faith , which the protestants so much in words detest , pag. 6. and mention our of staphilus his apology , thus : the collier being at the point of death , and tempted of the devil what his faith was ? answered : i believe , and dye in the faith of christs church : being again demanded what the faith of christs church was ? that faith ( said he ) that i believe in . thus the devil getting no other answer , was overcome and put to flight . by this paith of the collier every unlearned man may try the spirits of men , whether they be of god or no : by this faith he may resist the devil , and judge the true interpretation from the false , and discern the catholick from the heretical minister , the true doctrine from the forged . if the answer of the collier , and the papists conclusion upon it be not sound , but detestable , as the protestants confess , and cry wo unto the papists for the same , and that justly ; then is it no less detestable in the protestants or any other to require , or any to yeeld so far in religion and faith , that upon such a temptation he hath no better answer to make than as the collier , to say , i believe and dye in the faith of the church ; or of the prince , or of the learned ; for , being demanded what that faith is ? if he be not able to prove it by gods word , contained in the scriptures , it is no better nor other than the answer of the collier , the faith that i believe in . oh how many millions of souls in this nation , not papists but protestants , live and dye , and have never other faith than this , whereunto they are constrained and compelled by persecution , without either faith or knowledge . chap. 2. the interpreter of this rule is the scriptures , and spirit of god in whomsoever . the next thing , as the immediate question from this former , is , who must interpret this rule , because , as is objected , there are many dark places in it ( 2 pet. 3 ) hard to be understood . unto which we answer : the two witnesses of god shall be the onely interpreters therof ; which are , the word of god contained in the same scriptures , and the spirit of god , so are they called , joh. 15.26 , 27. act. 5.32 . first , for the scriptures themselves , though some doctrines in some places be dark and obscure , as peter speaketh , yet the self-same doctrines in other places are plain and manifest : for , all the words of the lord are plain to him that will understand , and streight to them that would find knowledge , pro. 8.9 . and knowledge is easie to him that will understand , prov. 14.6 . secondly , the spirit of god ; so saith the apostle , 1 john 2.6 . it is the spirit that beareth witness : for the spirit is truth . and john 14.26 . but the comforter , which is the holy ghost , whom the father will send in my name , he shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance which i have told you . and joh , 16.13 . howbeit when he is come , which is the spirit of truth , he will lead you into all truth ; for he shall not speak of himself , but whatsoever he shall hear , shall he speak , and he will shew you of things to come . and 1 cor. 2.10 . for the spirit searcheth all things , even the deep things of god. and ver . 11. for the things of god knoweth no man , but the spirit of god. and 1 joh. 2.27 . but the anointing that ye have received of him , dwelleth in you , and ye need not that any man teach you , but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things , and it is true , and is no lye ; and even as it hath taught you , you shall abide in him. and 1 joh. 3.24 . hereby we know that he abideth in us , even by the spirit that he hath given us . and 1 cor. 12.8 . for to one is given by the spirit , the word of wisdom ; and to another the word of knowledge , by the same spirit . the scriptures be so plain in this , that the greatest adversaries thereof do acknowledge the truth of it : only herein lyeth the difficulty , who it is that hath this spirit of god to interpret the scriptures , which is this sure rule ? which in the next place is to be handled . chap. 3. that the spirit of god , to understand and interpret the scriptures , is given to all and every particular person , that fear and obey god , of what degree soever they be ; and not to the wicked . proved , psal . 25.12 . what man is he that feareth the lord , him will he teach the way that he shall chuse . and ver 14. the secret of the lord is revealed to them that fear him , and his covenant to give them understanding . and psal . 107.43 . who is wise that he may observe these things , he shall understand the loving-kindness of the lord. and dan , 12.10 . none of the wicked shall have understanding ; but the wise shall understand . for god will do nothing , but he revealeth his secrets to his servants , amos 3.7 . and psal . 119.99 , &c. i have had more understanding than all my teachers , and than all the antients ; because i kept thy precepts . for he that keepeth the law is a child of understanding , prov. 28.7 . and joh. 14.15 . if ye love me , keep my commandments , and i will pray the father , and he shall give you the spirit of truth . and ver . 23. if any man love me , he will keep my word , and my father and i will come unto him , and will dwell with him . and john 7.17 . if any man will do his will , he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of god or no. and acts 5.32 . yea , and the holy ghost whom god hath given to all that obey him. and luke 21.15 . i will give you ( my disciples that obey me , and suffer for my sake ) a mouth , and wisdom , &c. and luke 12.12 . the holy ghost shall teach you what ye shall say : for , mat. 10.20 . it is not you that speak , but the spirit of my father that speaketh in you . and mark 4.11 . to you ( my followers ) is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of god ; but not to them that are without : for , the mystery of the gospel is made manifest to the saints , col. 2.2 . the church and saints of god have revealed unto them by the spirit , the things that eye hath not seen , &c. 1 cor. 2.9 , 10. and they have received the spirit of god , that they might know the things that are given them of god. but the natural man perceiveth not the things of the spirit of god , for they are foolishness to him ; neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned : but he that is spiritual , discerneth all things , &c. ver . 14. hence is most plain to whom the spirit of god is given , even to every particular saint of god. and it is no private spirit , but even : the publick , spirit of god which is in him , which enableth him to understand , and so to declare the things given him of god , 2 pet. 1.20 . that is a private spirit that is not of god , though it be in multitudes ; but the spirit of god , though but in one saint , is not private . gods spirit is not private , for it is not comprehended only within one place , person , or time , as mans is , but it is universal and eternal ; so is not mans : therefore mans is private , though they be many ; gods is publick , though but in one person . chap. 4. those that fear and obey god , and so have the spirit of god to search out and know the mind of god in the scriptures , are commonly and for the most part , the simple , poor , despised , &c. proved , mat. 11.5 . our saviour faith , the poor receive the gospel . and v. 25. i thank thee father , because thou hast opened these things unto babes ; it is so , o father , because thy good pleasure was such . and jam. 2.5 . hearken my beloved brethren , hath not god chosen the poor of this world , that they should be rich in faith , and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised ? &c. and 1 cor. 1.26 , &c. brethren , you see your calling , that god hath chosen the foolish of this world , the weak of this world , the vile of this world and dispised , and which are not . gods dealing is , to give unto the simple sharpness of wit , and to the child knowledge and discretion , prov. 1.4 . the sprit bloweth where it listeth , john 3.8 . and is not tyed to the learned . poor persecuted micaiah had the truth against four hundred of king ahabs prophets , 1 king. 22. so had jeremiah against all the priests and prophets of israel . the lord of life himself in his fleshly being , what was he but a man full of sorrows , in his birth laid in a cratch , because there was no room for him in the inne , luk , 2.7 . a carpenter by trade , mar. 6.3 . having not a hole to rest his head in , mat. 8.20 . and in his death contemned and dispised . his apostles in like manner , what were they but mean men , fishermen , tentmakers , and such like , having no certain dwelling-place , 1 cor. 4.11 . which the worldly-wise scribes and pharises took notice of , and reproachfully said , joh. 7.48 . do any of the rulers , or of the pharisees believe in him ? but this people that know not the law are accursed , ver . 49. the truth of this is as plain as may be , that the scriptures being the rule of faith , perfect and absolute , and that the plainness of them is such , as by the spirit of god they may be easily understood of those that fear and obey god , but of none else , and that such are most commonly the poor and dispised ; for , if any man want wisdom ( be he never so simple ) let him ask of god , and he will give him , jam. 1.5 . which is also confirmed by humane testimonies . the protestants confess , whit. pag. 7. that in the primative church the doctrines and several points of religion , were known and discovered by the most mean of the people , and the bishops exhorted them thereunto , &c. also , pag. 9. that this rule is of that nature , that it is able to direct any man be he never so simple , yea , the most unlearned alive may conceive and understand it sufficiently for his salvation . and they relate the sayings of the ancient in this thing , pag. 32. first , clemens alexandrinus : the word is not hid from any , it is a common light that shineth unto all , there is no obscurity in it ; hear you it , you that be far off , and you that be nigh . next him , austin ; god hath bowed down the scriptures to the capacity of babes and sucklings , that when proud men will not speak to their capacity , yet himself might . after him , chrysostom ; the scriptures are easie to understand , and exposed to the capacity of every servant , and plowman , and widow , and boy , and him that is most unwise . therefore god penned the scriptures by the hands of publicans , fishermen , tentmakers , shepherds , neat-herds , and unlearned men , that none of the simple people might have any excuse to keep them from reading , and that so they might be easie to be understood of all men ; the artificer , the housholder and widow woman , and him that is most unlearned : yea , the apostles and prophets , as schoolmasters to all the world , made their writings plain and evident to all men , so that every man of himself , only by reading them , might learn the things spoken therein . next , justin martyr saith : hear the words of the scripture , which be so easie that it needs no exposition but only to be rehearsed . and this the protestants say was the perpetual and constant judgment of the antient church , &c. and further , pag. 21. he alledgeth theodoret who writ of his times , you shall every-where see these points of our faith to be known and understood , not only by such as are teachers in the church , but even of coblers , and smiths , and websters , and all kind of artificers ; yea , all our women , not they only which are book-learned , but they also that get their living with their needle ; yea , maid-servants and waiting-women ; and not citizens only , but husbandmen of the country are very skilful in these things : you may hear among us ditchers , and neat-herds , and wood-setters discoursing of the trinity and the creation , &c. the like is reported by others . and , say the protestants , his doctrine that was president in the trent-conspiracy , that a distaff was fitter for women than a bible , was not yet hatched , &c. oh it were well if the contempt of these pious practices were paled only within the romish profession , and were not practised in and among those that profess themselves to be separated there-from : as what is more frequent in the mouthes of many protestants , yea the bishops themselves , than these and such like words ; must every base fellow , cobler , taylor , weaver , &c. meddle with the exposition or discoursing of the scriptures , which appertains to none but to the learned ? yea , do they not forbid their own ministers to expound or discourse of the scriptures ? read their 49 canon , which is ; no person whatsoever , not examined and approved by the bishop of the diocess , or not licensed , as is aforesaid , for a sufficient and convenient preacher , shall take upon him to expound in his own cure , or elsewhere , any scripture , or matter , or doctrine ; but shall only study to reade plainly and aptly ( without glozing or adding ) the homilies already set forth , or hereafter to be published by lawful authority , &c. so that not only jesus christ and his apostles ( who are alive in their doctrine , though not in their persons ) are forbidden all exposition of the holy scriptures , or matter , or doctrine , not being licensed by the bishops , but also their own ministers , who have sworn canonical obedience to them . yet when they are put to answer the papists , who practise the same thing , they take up both scriptures and antient writers to confute it . chap. 5. the learned in humane learning , do commonly and for the most part erre , and know not the truth , but persecute it and the professors of it ; and therefore are no further to be followed than we see them agree with truth . the next thing in order is , seeing the lord revealeth his secrets to the humble , though wanting humane learning , that we now prove on the contrary ; that god usually and for the most part hideth his secrets from the learned , and suffereth them to erre and resist the truth , yea so far , as to persecute it and the professors of it . and first , let us begin with the learned heathen , who were behind none in humane learning : the wise-men of egypt , how did they resist the glorious and powerful truth of god delivered by moses ? yea , they resisted it with such signs and lying wonders , that the heart of pharaoh and all his people were hardned against it , exod. 7.11 , 12 , 13. and 8.7 . and what was the cause of babels destruction , but their trusting in the learned ? isa . 47.13 . thou art wearyed in the multitude of thy counself , &c. and isa . 44.25 . i destroy the tokens of thy southsayers , and make them that conjecture fools , and turn the wisemen backward , and make their knowledge follishness . the things of gods dealing none of the learned of egypt or babel could interpret , but joseph and daniel . next come to the learned priests and prophets of the jews , whose lips should have preserved knowledge , and at whose mouth the people should have sought the law : but saith the lord , mal. 2.7 , 8. they are gone out of the way , they have caused many to fall by the law , &c. also isa . 29. stay your selves and wonder ; they are blind , and make you blind ; they are drunken , but not with wine ; they stagger , but not with strong drink : for the lord hath convered you with a spirit of slumber , and hath shut up your eyes , the prophets , and your chief seers , &c : therefore the lord said , because this people come near to me with their mouth , and honour me with their lips , but have removed their heart far from me , and their fear towards me was taught by the precepts of men : therefore , behold , i will again do a marvallous work in this people , a marvellous work and a wonder ; for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish , and the understanding of the prudent shall be hid , &c. and isa . 56.10 , &c. their watchmen are all blind , they have no knowledge , &c. and these shepherds cannot understand , for they all look to their own way , every one for his own advantage , and for his own purpose . also jer. 8.9 , &c. the wise-men are ashamed ; they are afraid and taken : lo , they have rejected the word of the lord , and what wisdom is in them , &c. and jer. 14.14 , &c. and 50.6 . my people have been as lost sheep , their shepherds have caused them to go astray , and have turned them away to the mountains , &c. and micah 3. night shall be unto them for a vision , and darkness for a divination : the sun shall go down over the prophets , and the day shall be dark over them , &c. for they have no answer of god : they build up zion with blood , and jerusalem with iniquity , &c. and zeph. 3.4 . her prophets are light and wicked persons ; her priests have polluted the sanctuary , they have wrested the law. and in the time of our saviour , how had they made the commandments of god of no authority by their traditions , mat. 15.6 . and act. 13.27 . the rulers of jerusalem ( the high-priests , scribes and pharisees ) knew not christ , nor yet the words of the prophets , which they heard read every sabbath , but fulfilled them in condemning him . and our saviour saith , mat. 11. i thank thee father , lord of heaven and earth , because thou hast hid these things from the wise and men of understanding . and none of the pharisees nor rulers believed on him , joh , 7.48 . and 1 cor. 1.20 . where is the wise ? where is the scribe ? where is the disputer of this world ? hath not god made the wisdom of this world follishness ? and ver . 26. not many wise men after the flesh , not many mighty , not many noble are called , &c. and for the learned since the time of our saviour ; the council of ephesus were where 132 bishops : of seleucia where were 160 bps , related by the protestants : how grievously did they erre , in decreeing the detestable error of arrianism ? who is ignorant ( knowing the histories ) that from time to time , both particular popes and general councils , have grosly erred in many things ? only one we will mention , passing by trent and others ; the council lateren we mean ( pope innocent , 1215. ) which for universality was behind none , where were present 2 patriarchs , 70 archbishops metropolitans 400 bishops , 12 abbot , 800 conventual priors , the legats of the greck and roman empire , besides the ambassadors and orators of the kings of jerusalem , france , spain , england , and cyprus . in this council it was decreed , that all hereticks , and so many as do in any point resist the catholick faith , should be condemned , &c. and also that the secular powers , of what degree soever they be , shall be compelled openly to swear for the defence of the faith , that they will to the uttermost of their power root out and destroy in all their kingdoms , all such persons as the catholick church hath condemned for hereticks : and if they do not , they shall be excommunicated . and if they do not reform within one whole year , then the pope may denounce all their subjects absolved , and utterly delivered from shewing or owing any fidelity or obedience towards them . again , that the pope may give that land , to be occupied and enjoyed of the catholicks to possess it , ( all hereticks being rooted out ) quietly and without any contradiction . tho. beacon in his reliques of rome , printed 1563. and the protestands confess , that this imperfection hath hung so fast upon all councils and churches , that nazianzen saith , he never saw any council have a good end . thus are here sufficient testimonies proved from scriptures and experience , that the learned may , and have usually erred ; and therefore the holy scriptures often warn us , to beware of false prophets , for many are gone out into the world , mat. 24. and 1 joh. 4. and will not your majesty , your highness , your honours , your worships , be pleased to consider of these things ? but will your selves submit the guidance of your souls to the learned spirituality , ( as they are called ) without due examination by the scriptures ? which if you will stil do , we can but bewail with the sorrows of our hearts ; and not so only , but will you with your power which god hath given you to use well , compel and constrain your subjects and underlings , to believe as the learned believe , not suffering us to reade or search the scriptures ? which if you abhor , as being the romish practice ; will you do that which is worse , letting us reade the scriptures , whereby we may know the will of our heavenly master , and have our consciences enlightned and convinced ; but not suffer us to practise that we learn and know ? whereby our sin and condemnation is made greater than the blind papists , as is proved , luke 12.47 . and not only so , but will you cons●●ain us to captivate our consciences , and practise in that , which in our ●●●ls we know to be evil , and contrary to the manifest law of the lord , and that only because the learned have so decreed , ( whom you acknowledge are subject to erre aswell as others ) or else lye in perpetual imprisonment , and be otherwise grievously persecuted ? may it please you to observe , that the church of rome seeth and acknowledgeth in words , that jesus christ is come in the flesh , and hath abolished the priesthood of aaron , and the legal sacrifieces ; but the jews see it not to this day , nay , the high-priests , scribes and pharisees saw it not , but for the publishing thereof persecuted christ the lord , and his apostles , unto the death ; calling their doctrine heresie , and them seditious enemies to caesar , &c. for the which we all justly condemn them for their wickedness , so often as we reade the holy history . and the church of england seeth and acknowledgeth divers damnable doctrines of the church of rome ; this among many , that the scriptures are not the only rule of faith , but that men ought to be constrained to believe as the church believes . the protestants see the iniquity of this , because they see and acknowledge all churches are subject to erre . but the learned papists see it not , but have decreed , that whosoever resisteth in any point shall be judged as an heretick , and suffer fire and faggot : and every temporal magistrate that doth not root such hereticks out of their dominions , shall be excommunicated ; and if he do not reform , he shall be expelled his earthly possessions , and his subjects freed from owing any fidelity or obedience towards him , &c. for the which height of iniquity , the protestants and we justly cry out against them for all the innocent blood that they have shed . and we see most manifestly , that what soever is not of faith is sin , rom. 14.23 . and without faith it is impossible to please god , heb. 11.6 . and therefore that no mortal man may make a law to the conscience , and force unto it by persecutions , and consequently may not compel unto any religion where faith is wanting , as hereafter more largely we prove . but the learned of this land see it not ( or rather will not practise it ) but for our not submitting herein , procure your temporal sword to persecute us , by casting us in prisons , where many of us have remained divers years in lingring imprisonment , deprived of all earthly comforts , as wives , children callings , &c. without hope of release , till our god ( for the practice of whose commandments we are thus persecuted ) perswade the hearts of your-majesty , your highness , your honours , your worships , to take pitty upon us , our poor wives and children , or his heavenly majesty release us by death . will not succeeding ages cry out against the cruelty of the learned protestants herein , aswell as they cry out against the cruelty of the learned jews and papists ? yes , we are assured they will , as many millions do in other nations at this day . the scriptures declare , the cause of the jews blindness was , not the obscurity of the scriptures , but that they winked with their eyes , lest they should see that which would deprive them of their honours and profits , as joh. 11.48 . and because , their fear towards god was taught by mens precepts , and because they looked to their own way , and to their own advantage , and had rejected the word of the lord ; and because they builded their zion with blood , and jerusalem with iniquity , and sought their own honour , and not gods , as before is proved . so the cause of the blindness of the learned papists , in denying the scriptures the only rule of faith , is not the obscurity of the scriptures , but their winding with their eyes , lest they should see that , that would bring them from their honours and profits , and all the forenamed in the jews . and also as the protestants well observe , whit. pag. 18. first , that they might make themselves judges in their own cause ; for who seeth not that if the church be the rule of faith , and their be the church , which way the verdict will go ? next , for that the greatest points of their religion have no foundation on the scriptures , &c. so that take away the scriptures , and establish their religion ; but establish the scriptures , and their religion vanisheth ; and that mother of whoredoms that glorified her self as a queen , rev. 18. shall be consumed ; and her merchants that were waxed rich through her pleasures and profits , shall wail and weep , the which they now seeing , shut their eyes , lest they should see that which would bring them from these honours , profits and pleasures . in like manner it may easily be judged by every indifferent man , that the cause why the learned of this land will not see , or at least practise , ( that seeing there is but one lord , eph. 4.5 . and one law-giver over the conscience , jam. 4.12 . therefore no man ought to be compelled by persecution , to a worship wherein he hath not faith ) is not the obscurity of the scriptures , but their winking with their eyes , lest they should see that that would take away their honours and profits ? for , if bribes blind the eyes of the wise , deut. 16.19 . then honours and profits much more : for , who seeth not , if none should be compelled by persecution to worship god in spirit and truth ( such only worship him , and none but such are required to worship him , joh. 4.23 . ) that these learned would lose their honours & profits , in being lords and law-makers over the conscience & souls of men : although your majesty might lawfully give them what temporal honours and profits your highness liked of . these are the true causes of the blindness of the learned : for so christ saith , : how can ye believe when ye seek honour one of another , and seek not the honour that cometh from god alone ? joh. 5.44 . and how can men but be blind in gods mysteries , when they look to their own way , for their own advantage , and for their own purpose ; for , having rejected the word of the lord , what wisdom is in them ? they have no answer of god , that build up their sion ( for so they account their churches and professions ) with blood , and jerusalem with iniquity , as before is proved . if these learned could free us from the lords wrath ; or , if they might answer for us , and we be free ; it were safe for us to submit our selves , and captivate our judgments and practice to them ; but seeing they cannot so much as deliver their own souls , and that if the blind lead the blind , both must fall into the ditch , mat. 15.14 . and , every one must give account of himself to god , and be judged by his own works done in the flesh , and that the soul that sinneth shall dye , we dare not follow any mortal man in matters of salvation further than we know him to agree with the meaning of god in the scriptures . paul the holy apostle of jesus christ , taught , that we should follow him no otherwise than he followed christ , 1 cor. 11.1 . yea , christ himself sent men to the scriptures to try his doctrine . the apostles suffered their doctrine to be tryed , and commend them that try it . and the protestants confess , whit. pag. 127. this doctrine was never misliked , till a church rose up , whose silver being dross , and whose milk , poyson , could not endure the tryal : which being true , that we may try , why may we not also judge and practise according as gods spirit shall direct us in our tryal ? if a man should drink poison , and know it to be poison , were he not in a worse estate than he that should drink it ignorantly not knowing thereof ? even a murderer of himself in the highest degree : so he that drinketh spiritual poison , knowing it , ( for according unto mens faith it is unto them ) he is in a worse estate , and a murderer of his own soul in the highest degree . and therefore that church , or those learned , that will suffer their doctrine to be tryed , and yet constrain men to receive and practise it , when upon examination their consciences are convinced of the falshood thereof , are worse , and do more highly sin , than they that constrain a blind conscience , though both be evil . we despise not learning , nor learned men , but do reverence it and them , according to their worthiness ; only when it is advanced into the seat of god , and that given to it which appertaineth unto the holy ghost , which is to lead into all truth , than ought all , as ezekiah did unto the brazen serpent , detest it and contemn it . chap. 6 , persecution for cause of conscience , is against the doctrine of jesus christ , king of kings . 1. christ commanded that the tares and wheat ( which are those that walk in the truth , and those that walk in falshood ) should be let alone in the world , and not plucked up until the harvest , which is the end of the world , mat. 13.30 , 38 , &c. 2. the same commandeth , mat. 15.14 . that they that are blindly led on in false religion , and are offended with him for teaching true religion , should be let alone , referring their punishment unto their falling into the ditch . 3. again , luke 9.54 , 55. he reproved his disciples ( who would have had fire come down from heaven and devoured those samaritans that would not receive him ) in these words , ye know not of what spirit ye are : the son of man is not come to destroymens lives , but to save them . 4. paul the apostle of our lord teacheth , 2 tim. 2.24 . that the servant of the lord must not strive , but must be gentle towards all men , suffering the evil men , instructing them with meekness that are contrary-minded ; proving if god at any time will give them repentance , that they may acknowledge the truth , and come to amendment out of the snare of the devil , &c. 5. according to these aforesaid commandments , the holy prophets foretold , that when the law of moses concerning worship should cease , and christs kingdom be established , then all carnal weapons should cease , isa . 2.4 . micah 4.3 , 4. they shall break their swords into mattocks , and their spears into sithes , &c. and isa . 11.9 . then shall none hurt nor destroy in all the mountain of my holiness , &c. and when he came , the same he taught and practised as begore , so did his apostles after him ; for the weapons of his warfare are not carnal , &c. 2 cor. 10.4 . but he charged strictly , that his disciples should be so far from persecuting those that would not be of their religion , that when they were persecuted they should pray , mat. 5. when they were cursed , they should bless : the reason is , because they that are now tares may hereafter become wheat : tehy who are now blind , may hereafter see ; they that now resist him , may hereafter receive him ; they that are now in the devils snare , in adversness to the truth , may hereafter come to repentance ; they that are now blasphemers , persecutors & oppressors , as paul was , may in time become faithful as he ; they that are now idolaters , as the corinths once were , 1 cor. 6.9 . may hereafter become true worshippers as they ; they that are now no people of god , nor under mercy , as the saints sometimes were , 1 pet. 2.20 . may hereafter become the people of god , and obtain mercy as they . some come not till the eleventh hour , mat. 20.6 . if those that come not till the last hour should be destroyed because they came not at the first , then should they never come , but be prevented . and why do men call themselves christians , and do not the things christ would ? chap. 7. persecution for cause of conscience , is against the profession and practice of famous princes . first , we beseech your majesty we may relate your own worthy sayings , in your majesties speech at parliament , 1609. your highness saith , it is a sure rule in divinity , that god never loves to plant his church by violence and bloodshed , &c. and in your highness apol. pag. 4. speaking of such papists as took the oath , thus : i gave a good proof that i intended no persecution against them for conscience cause , but only desired to secured for civil obedience , which for conscience cause they were bound to perform . and pag. 60. speaking of blackwel the arch-priest , your majesty saith , it was never my intention to lay any thing to the said arch-priests charge , as i have never done to any for cause of conscience , &c. and in your highness expos . on revel . 20. printed 1588 , and after 1603. your majesty truly writeth thus : sixtly , the compassing of the saints , and besieging of the beloved city , declareth unto us a certain note of a false church to be persecution ; for they come to seek the faithful , the faithful are those that are sought : the wicked are the besiegers , the faithful be besieged . secondly , the saying of stephen king of poland : i am king of men , not of consciences ; a commander of bodies , not of souls , &c. thirdly , the king of bohemia hath thus written : and notwithstanding the success of the later time , wherein sundry opinions have been hatched about the subject of religion , may make one clearly discern with his eye , and ( as it were ) touch with his finger , that according to the verity of holy scripture , and a maxime heretofore held and maintained by the ancient doctors of the church , that mens consciences ought in no sort to be violated , urged or constrained ; and whensoever men have attempted any thing by this violent course , whether openly or by secret means , the issue hath been pernicious , and the cause of great and wonderful innovasions in the principallest and mightiest kingdoms and countries of all christendom , &c. and further his majesty saith , so that once more we do protest before god and the whole world , that from this time forward we are firmly resolved , not to persecute or molest , or suffer to be persecuted or molested any person whosoever for matter of religion , no not they that profess themselves to be of the roman church , neither to trouble or disturb them in the exercise of their religion , so they live conformable to the laws of the states , &c. and for the practice of this , where is persecution for cause of conscience , except in england , and where popery reigns ? and not there neither in all places , as appeareth by france , poland , and other places ; nay , it is not practised among the heathen that acknowledge not the true god , as the turk , persian and others . chap. 8. persecution for cause of conscience , is condemned by the ancient and later writers , yea , by puritans and papists . hillary against anxentius , saith thus : the christian church doth not persecute , but is persecuted ; and lamentable it is to see the great folly of these times , and to sigh at the foolish opinion of this world , in that men think by humane aid to help god , and with worldly pomp and power to undertake to defend the christian church . i ask of you bishops , what help used the apostles in the publishing of the gospel ? with the aid of what power did they preach christ , and converted the heathen from their idolatry to god ? when they were imprisoned and lay in chains , did they praise and give thanks to god for any dignities , graces and favours received from the court ? or , do you think that paul went about with regal mandates , or kingly authority to gather and establish the church of christ ? sought he protection from nero vespatian ? &c. the apostles wrought with their hands for their own maintenance , travelling by land and water from town to city to preach christ ; yea , the more they were forbidden , the more they taught and preached christ . but now alas , humane help must assist and protect the faith , and give the same countenance ; to , and by vain and worldly honours do men seek to defend the church of christ , as if he by his power were unable to perform it . the same , against the arians : the church now which formerly by enduring misery and imprisonment , was known to be a true church , doth now terrific others , by imprisonment , banishment , and misery , and boasteth that she is highly esteemed of the world ; whereas the true church cannot but be hated of the same . tertul. ad scapul . it agreeth both with humane equity and natural reason , that every man worship god uncompelled , and believe what he will ; for , another mans religion or blief neither hurteth nor profiteth any man : neither beseemeth it any religion , to compel another to be of their religion , which willingly and freely should be imbraced , and not by constraint : for asmuch as the offerings were required of those that freely and with a good will offered , and not from the contrary . jerom. in proaem lib. 4. in jeremiam . heresie must be cut off with the sword of the spirit ; let us strike through with the arrows of the spirit all sons and disciples of misled hereticks , that is with testimonies of holy scriptures : the slaughter of hereticks is by the word of god. brentius on 1 cor. 3. no man hath power to make ( or give ) laws to christians , whereby to bind their consciences : for willingly , freely , and uncompelled , with a ready desire and chearful mind must those that come , run unto christ . luther in his book of the civil magistrate . the laws of the civil government extends no further than over the body or goods , and to that which is external : for , over the soul god will not suffer any man to rule , only he himself will rule there : therefore wheresoever the civil magistrate doth undertake to give laws unto the soul and consciences of men , he usurpeth that government to himself which appertaineth to god , &c. the same upon 1 king. 6. in building of the temple there was no sound of iron heard , to signifie that christ will have in his church a free and willing people , not compelled and constrained by laws and statutes . again , he saith upon luke 22. it is not the true catholick church which is defended by the seculare arm or humane power , but the false and feigned church ; which although it carries the name of a church , yet it denyes the power thereof . and upon psal . 17. he saith , for the true church of christ knoweth not brachium seculare , which the bishops now a dayes chiefly use . again , in postil . dom. 1. post . epiph. he saith , let not christians be commanded , but exhorted ; for he that will not willingly do that whereunto he is friendly exhorted , he is no christian : therefore those that do compel them that are not willing , shew thereby that they are not christian preachers , but worldly beadles . again , upon 1 pet. 3. he saith , if the civil magistrate would command me to believe thus or thus , i should answer him after this manner ; lord , or sir , look you to your civil or worldly government , your power extends not so far , to command any thing in gods kingdom , therefore herein i may not hear you : for if you cannot suffer that any man should usurp authority where you have to command , how do you think that god should suffer you to thrust him from his seat , and to seat your self therein ? the puritans , as appeareth in their answer to admonit . to parl. pag. 109. that papists nor others , neither constrainedly nor customally communicate in the mysteries of salvation . also in their supplication , printed , 1609 , pag. 21 , &c. much they write for toleration . lastly , the papists , the inventers of persecution ; in a wicked book lately set forth , thus they write : moreover , the means which almighty god appointed his officers to use in the conversion of kingdoms and people , was , humility , patience , charity , &c. saying , behold , i send you as sheep in the midst of wolves , mat. 10.16 . he did not say , i send you as wolves among sheep , to kill , imprison , spoil and devour those unto whom they were sent . again , ver . 7. he saith , they to whom i send you will deliver you up in councils , and in their synagogues they will scourge you ; and to presidents and to kings shall you be led for my sake : he doth not say , you whom i send shall deliver the people ( whom you ought to convert ) into councils , and put them in prisons , and lead them to presidents and tribunal seats , and make their religion felony and treason . again , he saith , ver . 12. when ye enter into the house , salute it , saying , peace be to this house : he doth not say , you shall send pursevants to sansack and spoyl the house . again , lie saith , joh. 10. the good pastor giveth his life for his sheep ; the thief cometh not , but to steal , kill and destroy : he doth not say , the thief giveth his life for his sheep , and the good pastor cometh not but to steal , kill and destroy , &c. so that we holding our peace , our adversaries themselves speak for us , or rather for the truth . chap. 9. it is no prejudice to the commonwealth if freedom of religion were suffered , but would make it flourish . be pleased not to hearken to mens leasings , but to what god and experience teacheth in this thing : abraham abode among the canaanites a long-time , yet contrary to them in religion , gen. 13.7 , and 16.3 . again , he sojourned in gerar , and king abimelech gave him leave to abide in his land , gen. 20 , & 21.33 , 34. isaac also dwelt in the same land , yet contrary in religion , gen. 26. jacob lived twenty years in one house with his uncle laban , yet differed in religion , gen. 31. the people of israel were 430 years in that famous land of egypt , and afterwards 70 years in babylon , all which times they differed in religion from the states ; exod. 12. and 2 chron. 36. come to the time of christ , where israel was under the romans , where lived divers sects of religions , as herodians , scribes and pharifees , saduces , libertines , theudaeans , samaritans , besides the common religion of the jews , christ and his apostles , all which differed from the common religion of the state , which ( is like ) was the worship of diana , which almost the whole world then worshipped , act. 19.20 . all these lived under the government of caesar , being nothing-hurtfull to the state and commonwealth ; for they gave unto caesar that which was his ; and for religion to god , he left them to themselves , as having no dominion therein . and when the enemies of the truth raised up any tumults , the wisdom of the magistrates most wisely appeased them , as acts 18.14 , &c. and 19.35 , &c. again , be pleased to look into the neighbour nations who tolerate religion , how their wealths and states are governed ; many sorts of religions are in their dominions , yet no trouble of state , no treason , no hinderance at all of any good , but much prosperities brought unto their countries , they having all one harmony in matters of state , giving unto caesar his due , and for religion they suffer one another . if any object the troubles of france , germany , &c. we answer : they are such as have been procured by the learned , but most bloody jesuites , who seek to establish their religion by blood , for subversion of whom your wisdoms are wise to deal in : yet be pleased not to let faithful subjects be punished for their wickedness : but let most severe laws be made for the maintenance of civil and humane peace and welfare , as to your majesty and others shall seem expedient . and if it be well observed , it is the learned that raised up all the bloody wars among the princes of the earth . chap. 10. king are not deprived of any power given them of god , when they maintain freedom for cause of conscience . we know the learned do perswade that kings have power from god to maintain the worship and service of god , as they have power to maintain right and justice between man and man ; for christian kings ( say they ) have the same power , that the kings of israel had under the law. for answer to which , first , let it be observed , the kings of israel had never power from god to make new laws , or set up new worships which gods word required not ; nor to set high priests , or spiritual lords for the performance of the services , other than such as god by moses expresly had commanded ; and therefore the power of the kings of israel will warrant to kings to make or confirm canons , set up new worships , and appoint spiritual lords and law givers to the conscience , and persecute all that submit not to them , 2. let it be well observed , only the kings of israel had this power , but no other kings , whose commonwealths did flourish to them and their seeds after them to many generations : and it must be granted that he that is king of israel now , which is jesus christ , ( the truth of those typical kings of israel ) he hath the power according to the proportion ; the temporal kings had temporal power to compel all to the observation of those carnal or temporal commandments , heb. 7.16 . and 9.10 . so christ the spiritual king , hath spiritual power to compel all to the observation of his spiritual commandments ; for when he came , himself said , joh. 4.23 . the hour cometh , and now is , when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth ; for the father requireth even such to worship him . if christ be only king of israel , that sits upon davids throne for ever , as he is , acts 2.30 . far be it from any king to take christs seat from him . the wisdom of god foresaw , that seeing the misteries of the gospel are such spiritual things , as no natural men ( though they be princes of this world ) can know them ; he left not kings and princes to be lords and judges thereof , seeing they are subject to erre , but he left that power to his beloved son , who could not erre ; and the son left his only deputy the holy ghost , and no moral man whatsoever , as your highness worthily acknowledgeth , in apol. pag. 46. i utterly deny that there is any earthly monarch over the church whose word must be a law , and who cannot erre by an infallibility of spirit . because earthly kingdoms must have earthly monarchs , it doth not follow the church must have a visible monarch too . christ is the churches monarch , and the holy ghost his deputy . the kings of the gentiles reign over them ; but you shall not be so , &c. luke 22. christ when he ascended left not peter with them to direct them into all truth , but premised to send the holy ghost unto them for that end , &c. further , these learned alledge the commandments , exod. 23.33 . deut. 7. and deut. 13. where israel are commanded to destroy all the inhabitants of the land , lest they intice them to serve their gods ; and to slay all false prophets , &c. these they collect from the time of the law , for in the time of the gospel they have nothing to alledge ; for , rom. 13. maketh nothing for their purpose , caesar being a heathen king. for answer unto the places of moses : first , the sins of this people the canaanites were full , and the lord would destroy them , and give their possessions unto the israelites ; but the sins of the refusers of christ , are not full until the end , or last hour , as before is proved . 2. the children of israel had a special commandment from the lord to destroy them ; but the kings of the nations have no command at all to destroy the bodies of the contrary-minded ; nay , they are expresly forbidden it , mat. 13.29.3 . the canaanites would have rebelled against israel , and have des ; troyed them ; but the contrary-minded will not rebell against their kings , but give unto them the things that belong unto them ; not so much for fear , as of conscience : and of this the god of gods is witness . 4. the heads and rulers of israel could command and compel the people to observe those carnal rites and ordinances of the law ; even as christ the head and ruler of israel can compel to the observations of his spiritual ordinances of the gospel ; but the heads of the nations cannot compel their subjects to believe the gospel ; for faith is the gift of god ; which faith if they want , all they do in gods worship is sin , rom. 14.23 . heb. 11.6 . therefore they cannot compel any to worship , because they cannot give them faith ; for which cause the lord in wisdom saw it not meet to charge kings with a duty which they cannot perform , god will never require it at their hands ; the blood of the faithless and unbelieving shall be on their own heads ; he that will not believe shall be damned , mark 16.16 . again , seeing it is true , as your majesty well observeth in your highness speech at parl. 1609. that the judicials of moses were only fit for that time , and those persons : and also it is confessed , the law for adultery , theft , and the like , is not now to be executed according to the judicials of moses , nor directions for the magistrates of the earth to walk by ; why should these be any directions for them , seing also our savior and his apostles have taught the contrary , as before hath been proved ? if all false prophets should be now executed , according to deut. 13. the kings of the earth would not onely be deprived of many of their subjects ; but the cities of their habitation , with all the inhabitants of the cities , must be destroyed with the edge of the sword ; the cattel thereof , and all the spoyl thereof must be brought into the midst of the city , and the city and all therein by burnt with fire , be made a heap of stones for ever , and never be built again : which god forbid such execration should ever be seen . and if these judicials of moses be not now directions for the kings of nations , we reade not in all the book of god , any directions given to kings to rule in matters of conscience and spiritual worship to god : but often we reade that the kings of the nations shall give their power to the beast , and fight against the lamb , rev. 16.14 . and 17.2 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 18. and 18. 3 , 9. and 19.19 . as lamentable experience hath plainly taught it . thus all men may see there is only deceit in these learned mens comparisons of the kings of israel in the law , with the kings of nations in time of the gospel , in matters of religion . much might be written to prove , that kings are not deprived of their power by permitting of freedom of religion , but are rather deprived thereof by using compulsion to the contrary-minded , and do sin grievously , in causing them to sin for want of faith ; but this may suffice , the almighty blessing it with his blessing , which we humbly-beseech him for his christs sake , for his own glory sake , for the prosperity and welfare of these kingdoms , and for the comfort of your faithful and true-hearted subjects , that are now distressed by long and lingring imprisonments and otherwise ; who of conscience give unto caesar the things which are his , which is , to be lord and law-giver to the bodies of his subjects , and all belonging to their outward-man , for the preservation of himself , and his good subjects , and for the punishment of the evil ; in which preservation , the church of christ hath a special part , when their outward peace is thereby preserved from the fury of all adversaries ; in which respect princes are called nursing fathers , as many are at this day , blessed be our lord. oh be pleased to consider , why you should persecute us for humbly beseeching you in the words of the king of kings , mat. 22.21 . to give unto god the things which are gods ; which is , to be lord and law-giver to the soul in that spiritual worship and service which he requireth : if you will take away this from god , what is it that is gods ? far be it from you to desire to sit in the consciences of men , to be law-giver and judge therein . this is antichrists practice , perswading the kings of the earth to give him their power to compel all hereunto : but whosoever submitteth , shall drink of gods fierce wrath revel . 14.9 , 10. you may make and mend your own laws , and be judge and punisher of the transgressors , thereof ; but you cannot make or mend gods laws , they are perfect already , psal . 19.7 . you may not adde nor diminish , deut. 4.2 . rev. 22.18 , 19. nor be judge , nor monarch of his church , that is christs right ; he left neither you , nor any mortal man his deputy , but only the holy ghost , as your highness acknowledgeth , and whosoever erreth from the truth , his judgment is set down , 2 thess . 1.8 , &c. rom. 2.8 , &c. and the time thereof , matth. 13.40 . and 25.31 , &c. rom. 2.16 . this is the sum of our humble petition , that your majesty would be pleased , not to persecute your faithful subjects ( who are obedient to you in all civil worship and service ) for walking in the practice of what gods word requireth of us , for his spiritual worship , as we have faith ; knowing ( as your majesty truly writeth in your medit. on mat. 27. pag. 69. in these words ) we can use no spiritual worship or prayer , that can be available to us without faith. this is the sum of our most humble petition , thus manifoldly proved to be just . o lord god of glory , raise up in this high assembly , the heart of some nehemiah , of some ebed-melech , that may open their mouthes ( for the dumb , that cannot speak for themselves ) in a truth so apparant as this is , lest it be said , as isa . 59.16 , and when he saw that there was no man , he wondred that none would offer himself ; therefore his arm did save it , and his righteousness it self did sustain it . and now we cease not to pray for the king , and his son , and his seed , and this whol high and honourable assembly , now and alwayes , calling the all-seeing god to witness , that we are your majesties loyal subjects not for fear only , but for conscience sake . unjustly called , ana-baptists the rise, growth, and danger of socinianisme together with a plaine discovery of a desperate designe of corrupting the protestant religion, whereby it appeares that the religion which hath been so violently contended for (by the archbishop of canterbury and his adherents) is not the true pure protestant religion, but an hotchpotch of arminianisme, socinianisme and popery : it is likewise made evident, that the atheists, anabaptists, and sectaries so much complained of, have been raised or encouraged by the doctrines and practises of the arminian, socinian and popish party / by fr. cheynell ... cheynell, francis, 1608-1665. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a32802 of text r16168 in the english short title catalog (wing c3815). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 247 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 44 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a32802 wing c3815 estc r16168 11732271 ocm 11732271 48402 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a32802) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 48402) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 21:7 or 245:e103, no 14) the rise, growth, and danger of socinianisme together with a plaine discovery of a desperate designe of corrupting the protestant religion, whereby it appeares that the religion which hath been so violently contended for (by the archbishop of canterbury and his adherents) is not the true pure protestant religion, but an hotchpotch of arminianisme, socinianisme and popery : it is likewise made evident, that the atheists, anabaptists, and sectaries so much complained of, have been raised or encouraged by the doctrines and practises of the arminian, socinian and popish party / by fr. cheynell ... cheynell, francis, 1608-1665. [8], 75 [i.e.79] p. printed for samuel gellibrand ..., london : 1643. pages 74-75, 78-79 numbered 70-71, 74-75 respectively. errata: p. [79]. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng socinianism. arminianism. atheism. anabaptists. a32802 r16168 (wing c3815). civilwar no the rise, growth, and danger of socinianisme· together with a plaine discovery of a desperate designe of corrupting the protestant religion, cheynell, francis 1643 42809 280 235 0 0 0 0 120 f the rate of 120 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2004-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-06 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-06 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the rise , growth , and danger of socinianisme . together with a plaine discovery of a desperate designe of corrupting the protestant religion , whereby it appeares that the religion which hath been so violently contended for ( by the archbishop of canterbury and his adherents ) is not the true pure protestant religion , but an hotchpotch of arminianisme , socinianisme and popery . it is likewise made evident , that the atheists , anabaptists , and sectaries so much complained of , have been raised or encouraged by the doctrines and practises of the arminian , socinian and popish party . by fr. cheynell late fellow of merton college . vt judai olim volebant audire populus domini cùm essent non populus , osc. 1. 9. jactabant patrem abraham cùm essent ex diabolo , job . 8. 44. sic sociniani quoque titulum christianorum sibi arrogant , & fratres nostri spirituales haberi petunt , cùm unum nobiscum patrem deum trin-unum minimè agnoscant . vide d. stegman . photinianism . disp. 1. p. 4. 5. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , inquit philosophus ; parum itaque rationales sunt sociniani qui deteriora sequuntur . london , printed for samuel gellibrand , at the brazen serpent in pauls church-yard . 1643. to the right honovrable the lord viscount say and seale , &c. peace . noble sir , learned casaubon assures me that when the greek fathers wrote to a wicked man they were wont to salute him with that apostolicall benediction , grace be unto you : but when they wrote to a religious man they used the ordinary hebraisme , peace be unto you , because peace doth suppose grace , and doth comprehend all outward blessings . i am sure your very enemies gave you this testimony at oxford , that you were a man of peace , but as it followes in the psalme , when you spake for peace they were for warre . psalme 120. 7. all that your honour desired was , that ( as it became gowned men ) they would take up their bookes , and lay down their armes ; that they would not protect delinquents any longer , but yeeld them up to a legall tryall . you desired that nothing might be tumultuously attempted , but all things orderly reformed . you engaged your honour to them that what plate you found in places fit for plate , the treasury or the buttery should remaine untouched , and most societies engaged themselves by a solemne promise , that they would never give their consent that their plate should be put to any other use then what was sutable and according to their oath , and the intention of the donours , their successors having in all these respects as great an interest in the plate as themselves ; nay they generally confessed that they had no more power to aliene their plate then their lands . in confidence of their promise you told them you did leave their plate in their owne custody , which otherwise you would have secured , and in confidence of your honours promise they brought forth their plate , and made publique use of it , even whilest the souldiers were in towne ▪ your lordship found the university ( as the reverend doctours had left it ) groaning under a kinde of anarchy ; for it was thought fit by the round-house , that the university should be dissolved , and every man left to doe what seemed good in his owne eyes . it was suggested by a doctor well read in politiques , that if they did not dissolve the university , the parliament would dissolve it ▪ but your honour made it appear how much you did abhorre an anarchy , and honour the vniversity ; you assembled those few governours of private colledges which were at home , and the substitutes of all that were absent , you consulted them how the vniversity might be put into its right posture : you assured them that it was not the intent of the parliament to change the government or infringe the liberties of the vniversity , & that though the new statutes were justly complained of , yet you conceived it fit that the vniversity should for the present be governed by lawes that were none of the best , rather then left quite without rule , or government ; they all confessed that you behaved your selfe more like a chauncellour then a souldier , for the vniversity was not over-awed by a garrison , or over-ruled by a councell of warre . you did not impose any taxes upon the university , you did not go about to perswade them that guns were mathematicall instruments , and therefore they might buy guns with that very money which was bequeathed and set apart for mathematicall instruments ; you did not importune any scholars to list themselves in your regiment , nor did you desire that doctours would turne commanders , or that any commanders should be created doctours , or boyes created masters , lest there might be an anarchy even in convocation by such a premeditated confusion ; and yet such counsells and practises have been suggested by some , that are none of the meanest ranke . when i was commanded by speciall warrant to attend your honour , ( deputed by both houses of parliament for the service of king and parliament to settle peace and truth in the vniversity of oxford , and to reduce the said vniversity to its ancient order , right discipline , and to restore it to its former priviledges and liberties ) there was notice given of a pestilent book very prejudiciall both to truth and peace , and upon search made , the book was found in the chamber of mr. webberly , who had translated this socinian master-peece into english for his own private use , as he pretended ; to which vain excuse i replyed that i made no question but he understood the book in latine , and therefore had he intended it only for his own private use , he might have saved the paines of translating it . besides the frontispice of the book under mr. webberlies own hand did testify to his face that it was translated into english for the benesit of this nation . moreover there was an epistle to the reader prefixed before the booke ; ( i never heard of any man yet that wrote an epistle to himselfe ) and therefore sure he intended to print it . finally , he submits all to the consideration of these times of reformation , and the reformers have thought fit that it should be answered and published . i desired at the first intimation to decline the service , because it were better to confute socinianisme in latine ; but i have since considered that 1. the opinions of abailardus , servetus , socinus , are already published in english in a book entitled mr. wo●●ns defence against mr. walker , and therefore if this treatise had been suppressed , their opinions would not be unknown , for they are already divulged . 2. the opinions being published in english without a confutation , it is very requisite that there should be some refutation of the errours published also , for it is not fit that a bedlam should go● abroad without a keeper . 3. if there be but just suspition of a designe to introduce damnable heresies , it is requisite that the grounds of suspition should be manifested , especially if it be such a pestilent heresy a●socinianisme is ( which corrupts the very vitalls of church and state ) it is fit the heresy should be early discovered left both church and state be ruined by it . 4. the parliament is much blamed for imprisoning the translatour without cause : and it is much wondered at that his chamber should be searched by officers : now the cause of both will appear . the translatour and his work were so famous that there was notice given of his good service intended to this nation , upon notice given there was a search made , now upon search made the book being found , and the translatour apprehended , the parliament is rather guilty of his release then of his imprisonment . 5. the translatour cannot complain of the publishing of it , because ( as hath been shewn ) he himself intended to publish it , he submits all to these times of reformation , and so doe i , let the reformers judge . this book belongs to your honour , because it is but a prodromus or fore-runner to make way for a full answer to master webberlies translation , and therefore i present it to you , not only because master webberlies book was seised on by your lordships warrant ; but because i know your honour hath ever patronized the true protestant religion , for protestants doe not place religion in shadowes and ceremonies ; and because you justly abhorre all superstitious rites , whether old or new , all judicious men will esteem you the stricter protestant . that you may testify your dislike of schisme as well as heresy , you have discovered and refuted the uncharitable and bitter errour of the brownists . you have studied nazianzens law of martyrdome , neither to seek nor fear danger ; the first would be rashnesse , and the second cowardlinesse . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . you are not of the sect of the elcesaites whereas eusebius and augustine testify ) taught men to deny the faith in time of persecution , and yet to keep it still in their heart , forgetting that of the apostle , that with the heart man beleeves unto righteousnesse , but with the mouth confession is made unto salvation . rom. 10. 10. you have learnt to be a good christian , and therefore a good subject ; conscience will bind you to obedience , and no other bond will hold men close to their duty ( to that allegiance which is due by the law of god and the land both ) in these treacherous times . it was the wisedome of that famous emperour to banish all renegado's from his court , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as traytours against god himselfe , for he considered that they who betrayed god for feare , would not stick to betray their prince for gain . i dare say that you are the kings sworne servant , and all men say that in your place you doe advance the kings income to the highest , nay some have been bold to say that you have lesse care of the subjects profit , then of the kings . your devotions speak you a royalist , none prayes more heartily for the king ; it is your iudgement that the kingdome cannot be preserved without an union between the three estates by which the kingdome is governed , and if you might have been heard you would have petitioned , and sollicited for an happy union between king and parliament , only you conceive that an union between a court of justice and capitall delinquents , is intolerable , and an happy union between protestants and papists altogether impossible : we cannot forget how many leagues the papists broke in 6. yeares space ; i reckon from 1572. to 1588. wise homer and witty aristophanes were both in good earnest when they said that no man that had either wealth or innocence could delight in civill warre , and aristophanes shewed himselfe as good a statesman as a poet in his sweet lines of peace , where he advises all men to beware how they enter into a league of peace with men that are unpeaceable ; and sure delinquents and papists are none of the trustiest or meekest men ; what ( saith he ) shall gulls confide in foxes ? {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the papists will certainly count us protestants gulls indeed ( well we may be as innocent as doves , but we are as simple as gulls ) if we confide in jesuited foxes ; let the woolfe and the sheep be first married , and see how they agree : let us try whether we can make a crabbe goe streight forward , or make a hedge-hog smooth . — {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. if we say to the pope as the men of jabesh said to nahash , make a covenant with us and we will serve thee , the pope will answer like nahash the ammonite , on this condition will i make a covenant with you , that i may thrust out all your right eyes , and lay it as a reproach upon all england , all israel , all the reformed churches , 1 sam. 11. 1 , 2. if wee have lost our eyes already , let us be avenged on the philistines ; the lord strengthen us , as sampson said , that we may overthrow the pillars upon which rome stands , so shall we be avenged of the romane philistines for both our eyes . judges 16. 28. but there are other philistines namely arminian and socinian philistines , by which church and state are much endangered , and it is the businesse now in hand to lay open their mystery of iniquity to the publique view . wee may say to these pestilent heretiques as well as to malignant statesmen , ita nati estis ut mala vestra ad rempub. pertineant ; for there are no greater statesmen in the world then the english arminians , and popish socinians ; for such monsters hath england nourished as are not to be found in all africa . herod and pilate , the romane and the racovian antichrist , are made friends in england , all the grand-malignants , arminians , papists , and socinians are of one confederacy , all united under one head the arch-bishop of canterbury , the patriarch or pope of this british world , alterius orbis papa as his brother-pope hath given him leave to phrase it , because he saw the arch-bishop too proud to acknowledge his supremacy , but forward enough to maintain any other point of popery , & ready to joyn with him to suppresse all pure protestants . if this design take effect , there may wel be a reconciliation professed & established between rome and canterbury , the two popes may divide the spoile of the church betweene them if they can but agree at parting . whether some have not endeavoured to make such a reconciliation ; whether all points of popery almost have not been greedily embraced in england , and that of the popes supremacy only rejected , more out of pride then conscience , let the prudent judge , they have light and evidence enough , and new evidence is dayly produced . the lord unite the king and parliament , that truth and iustice , piety and peace may be established in our dayes : so prayes aprill , 18. 1643. your lordships humble servant , fr. cheynelz . it is ordered this eighteenth day of aprill , 1643. by the committee of the house of commons in parliament concerning printing , that this book intit●led the rise , growth , and danger of socinianisme , &c. be printed . iohn white . chap. i. of the rise of socinianisme . the socinians have raked many sinkes , and dunghils for those ragges and that filth , wherewith they have patched up and defiled that leprous body which they account a compleat body of pure religion . ever since the world was possessed with the spirit of antichrist some malignant heretikes have been ever and anon desperately striking at the person , the natures , the offices , the grace and spirit of christ . cerinthius and ebion began to blaspheme christ , even in the apostles time . i need say nothing of theodot us byzont in us , paulus samosatenus , arius and the a rest ; yet it will not be amisse to shew wherein the socinians have refined or enlarged the ancient heresies , which have been long since condemned to hell . ostorodus would not have the name of ebionites imposed upon the socinians , quia vox ebion hebraicé egenum significat , praef. iust. pag. 10. 11. it seemes they would not be counted mean conditioned men : and there are some indeed and those no beggers ( unlesse it beat court ) who are too much addicted to socinian fancies ; and yet if that be true , which ostorodus cites out of eusebius , that the ebionites were so called because they had a mean and beggerly opinion of christ , sure the socinians might well be called ebionites , for none have baser and cheaper thoughts of christ , then they . if ostorodus had thought it worth while to have consulted eusebius his ecclesiasticall history , lib. 3. cap. 24. or epiphanius haeres . 33. he might have seen another reason why those heretikes were called ebionites . the socinians take it no lesse unkindly that they are called arians . ex consensu tantùm in principalibus cum ario de jesu christo , arianismi jure quis argui potest ? saith smalcius . it is well he confesses that they may be called arians who agree with arius in the maine , i deny that the arians had higher thoughts of jesus christ , then the socinians . the arians were termed {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , because they maintained that christ was created {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . some arians did acknowledge that christ was equall to the father in essence and nature , though they denyed him to be of the same essence with the father ; and others of them did only say , that the son was unlike the father , and were therefore called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; yet these also were cōdemned because neither of these sects would acknowledge the son to be consubstantiall with the father ; for if they would have confessed that the father and the son were of the same essence , they would never have said that their essence was equall , but rather that their persons were equall , and their essence the same ; for equality is ever between two at the least : therefore by saying that their nature was equall , they implyed that they had two different natures . and they who talked of a dissimilitude of nature , must necessarily suppose , that the father and the son had different natures , for a nature cannot be said to be unlike it selfe : and if this latter sect by dissimilitude meant an inequality , then they were blasphemously absurd , in fancying that there was majus and minus in the same most indivisible , and single essence . reverend beza hath set this forth to the life , in his preface to the description of the heresy and perjury of that arch-heretike , valentinus gentilis , ariomanitae — in duas minimùm factiones divisi sunt , nempe in {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . he disputes the the point , whether {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} did not imply as much as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} — nisi voxilla {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( sicut de dionysio corinthio , basilius ad fratrem scribit ) commodâ quadam interpretatione ( sed plane ut mihi videtur violentâ ) leniatur , nam certè in unâ eademque prorsus essentiâ nullus est neque aequalitatineque inaequalitati locus , utpote quae minimùm in duobus cernantur ; ac proinde in hypostasibus , non in essentiâ spectare aequalitatē necesse est . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} — qui filium patri faciebant dissimilem , se vel arianos prodebant vel stolidos , quum in simplicissimâ & singularissimâ naturâ , nempe deitate , majus & minus quiddam imaginarentur , pag. 4. & 5. by this and much more which might be added , it doth plainly appeare that if the arians were not more rationall , yet they were more devout then the socinians , they had a a more honourable and reverent opinion of christ . for the socinians will not acknowledge that god and christ are equall , or like in nature . the socinians make christ , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the arians thought him the most excellent of all creatures , and therefore said , that he was created before any other creature , and used by god as an instrument to create the rest , as doctor stegman observes , disput. 1. pag. 3. finally the arians and socinians agree in this , that both deny christ to be consubstantiall with the father , and therefore though they differ in telling their tale , in explaining their errour , yet both agree in the maine , and that 's ground enough to call them arians , if smalcius may be judge . doctour stegman usually cals the socinians , photinians , and therefore entitles his own book photinianismus ; and the socinians doe acknowledge that they agree with photinus in the maine , yet they say it is not sufficient ground to call any man photinian because he agrees with photinus in fundamental points ; but smalcius tells us that socinus was the servant of christ , they own his doctrine , and own the man as their fellow-servant : quid photinus ? quid alii ? nisi servi christi ? they give him and others that are as bad as he is , the right hand of fellowship ; and it is commonly conceived that mahumetisme took his rise from photinianisme . i have no book about me , that fhewes so clearly what the photinians held , as iacobus ad portum professor of divinity in academia lausannenfi , in its epistle dedicatory , doc●erunt christum iesum naturâ esse {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , gratiâ divinâ tamen insigniter ornatum , eumque tum demum esse coepisse , cùm in utero virginis mariae conciperetur ; ac proinde verbum dei , vel deum non aliter in ipso quàm in aliis prophet is habitasse , nec ipsi {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} aut {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} unitum fuisse , sed tantum gratiâ & efficaciâ ipsi assedisse : ipsum denique esse {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , sed {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , non autens {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ut loquuntur , ex quâ infoelici haeresi postmodum mahumetismus ortus esse perhibetur . others call the socinians samosatenians , and therefore thalyaeus calles his booke in which he answers the arguments of socinus , eniedinus , ostorodius , and smalcius , anatome samosatenianismi , in which he shews that the socinian glosses are of the same colour with turkish and iewish blasphemies ; the four professors of the theologicall faculty at leiden , have given a large commendation of thalyaeus in their approbation , printed before the book , and signed with the hands of all the professors , in which they with one voice vote socinianisme to be recoct samosatenianisme ; impiam pauli samosateni sententiam melior & sanctior ecclesia sub cruce adhuc militans , ut enata fuit exhorruit , eaque mox publico episcoporum judicio execrata est . scriptum illud conscriptum contra renatum & ab infausto illo socino ejusque asseclis recoctum samosatenianismum censemus pie docte & solide &c. the samosatenians did borrow their name from paulus samosatenus bishop of the church of antioch , and therefore his practises were the more abominable , because he poysoned that church , in which disciples were first called christians , with hereticall blasphemies against the lord christ , as reverend beza observes . i find in augustine that artimonius did first broach this heresy , and paulus samosatenus did revive it ; but i need say no more of the samosatenians , having said enough already of the photinians , for photinus did confirm that heresie which samosatenus did revive , and therefore the followers of paulus samosatenus . were more commonly called photinians then paulians , or samosatenians . and though philaster reckon samosatenus his heresy by it self , & photinus his heresie by it self , yet to shew that they were not different heresies , he saith photinus did in all things follow paulus samosatenus . i do not reckon up all the disorderly heretikes in order , take them as it happens . nestorius denyed that the self same person was god and man , he would not acknowledge that the word was made flesh , only the word was with that flesh , ( by an effectuall presence ) which was taken of the substance of the virgin , affirmabat enim {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} illi carni ex mariâ prognatae nonnisi {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} adfuisse , as learned beza declares it in brief . if any man desire to be further acquainted with the opinion , and the desputes about it , let him reade s. cyril , and peruse the famous and orthodoxe ( not the spurious and surreptitious ) ephesine councell , and he may receive full satisfaction . the socinians are farre worse then nestorius , for they do not onely deny , that the selfe same person who was borne of the virgin , is the second person in the trinity , but they utterly deny that there is any second person , or third person which is consubstantiall with the father . having mentioned nestorius , i must not skippe over eutyches , who in opposition to nestorius his dividing of the person of christ , did vainely imagine , that the natures of christ were mingled , and so he confounded both natures , and their essentiall properties : yet the eutychians did grant that there were two natures in christ , which the socinians deny . the time would faile me , or at least the readers patience , should i shew how the socinians agree with the noetians , who maintained , that there was but one person in the godhead : with macedonius , who denied the holy ghost to be a person : with the pelagians , concerning their deniall of the image of god in adam before his fall , and their maintaining of free-will , and denyall of originall sinne since the fall . in a word , how they agree with the valentinians , marcionites , cerdonians , manichees , apollinarists , sabellius , the donatists , sadducees , papists , anabaptists , schwenckefeldians , antinomians , and i know not how many more of the like stampe , hath beene shewen by others already , and the manifestation of their errors in the ensuing treatise will sufficiently declare . i will passe over many things very observable , because i would willingly discourse at large of some later passages , and subtile inventions by which socinianisme was introduced into forraine parts , and in some parts established by the suffrage and subscription of too many eminent wits , and great scholars . but i must not in my haste forget abeilardus , or as platina cals him , baliardus , as bernard , abailardus , his name in our english tongue may be balard ; he flourished about the yeare 1140. he had a very ready discoursing wit , and is by some voiced to be the first founder of schoole-divinity ; whether he maintained all those heresies which bernard layes to his charge , i shall not now stand to dispute , there is some cause of doubt ; abeilard lived to make his apology , and if it was but an honest recantation , he hath made some amends . learned mr. gataker in his post-script to mr. wottons defence , pag. 40. & 41. will direct you to authors , from whom you may receive better satisfaction then i can for the present give , unlesse i were furnished with a better library . i shall not doe postellus so much honour as to take notice of him ; as for servetus , i will not staine my paper with his blasphemies : mr. gataker hath shewen his chiefe assertions in the booke forecited from the 42. to the 47. page ; it is much questioned whether the senate of geneva did not deale too severely with him . samosatenus , arius and eutyches did all revive in that cerberus , he was both admonished and refuted by three learned divines of that age , oecolampadius , melanchthon & calvin ; he had time enough given him to recant , hee did stubbornely maintaine his cursed blasphemies for thirty yeares together , as beza shewes ; ob triginta annorum blasphemias execrabiles & indomitam pervicaciam ex senatus genevensis sententiâ justissimo supplici● affectum , quis non tandem nisi planè furiosus & excors abominetur ? the senate of geneva were in good hope by this exemplary punishment upon servetus to crush this cockatrices egge , and kill the viper ; but for all this some under hand , and others more boldly and impudently did seduce the people . bernardine ochin seemed to be an academik , a meere sceptik in religion , he questioned all things , and determined nothing ; lalius socinus carried the matter with such a cleanly conveyance , that he was scarse taken notice of , though he received some checks and admonitions , yet most men thought charitably of him during his life ; his black designes were not fully discovered till after his death ; this is the grandfather of the socinians ; but i will say no more of him yet , till i have shewen what pra●kes were played by those bold fellowes , who acted those tragedies openly upon the stage , which lelius composed behinde the curtaine , valentinus gentilis practised at geneva , george blandrate a physitian in poland , and transylvania . give mee leave to make but two or three observations by the way , and i shall open the practises of these impudent hereticks more fully to you . first , the devill hath done more mischiefe in the church by counterfeit protestants , false brethren , then by professed papists , open enemies . secondly , observe that vaine curiosity did betray the churches , and make them a meere prey to these subtile hereticks ; most men have an itching desire to be acquainted with novelties , and at that time the churches were very inquisitive after a more rationall way of divinity , they began to examine the articles of faith , especially the article of the trinity , by some received axiomes of philosophy , and by that curiosity puzled their reason , and lost their faith . thirdly , though poland and transylvania were grievously infected , yet the mischiefe came from italy , as reverend beza observes , and therefore cryes out , sa●è fatalis esse videtur p●lonis italia . besides the flame brake out first in the italian church at geneva , though the coales were dispersed and blowne too in other places . the italian church had some warning given by the execution of michael servetus in the yeare 1553. but that church was too indulgent for foure or five yeares , yet at last the elders of the italian church , perceiving that some of their flock began to oppose the doctrine of the trinity , they thought fit to set forth some forme of confession , unto which they required all to subscribe , upon the eighteenth day of may , 1558. they all protested by that faith whereby they were oblieged to god , that they would never purposely and malitiously directly or obliquely oppose that confession , or favour any forme , or sect which did make the least appearance of dissenting from it ; and whosoever did violate this protestation , should be held a perjured and perfidious man . valentinus gentilis made no great haste to subscribe , but being called upon , he testified his consent with his owne hand . yet not long after , he said he was pricked in conscience for subscribing to this forme , and therefore contemned his protestation , and endeavoured to seduce the simple people ; whereupon he was convented before the senate of geneva , the points in controversie being rationally discussed , and valentinus nonplust , he had nothing to say , but that he was not well versed in the art of disputing , which was notoriously false , for he was an acute subtile man , as appeares by his confessions , epistles , replies ; his sublime notions about the essence , and subsistences of the trinity and quaternity ; that one question did sufficiently discover his subtilty , an essentia divina ex semetipsa absque ullâ consideratione personarum sit verus deus ; and that thesis of his , deus pater solus verus deus est essentiator , hoc est informator individuorum , nempe filii spiritusque . the god of israel ( saith valentine ) is the onely true god the father of jesus christ ; and so by opposing the father to the son , and affirming that the father only was the true god , he did clearly deny the son to be the true god . clare apparet ( saith the senate ) quum patrem opponis filio & uni duntaxat veram deitatem tribuis , te excludere alterum , quem cum illo confers — facessat antithesis inter patrem & filium ubi fit deitatis mentio — in comparatione fingis duo antitheta , patrem opponis filio ac si in solo patre esset dei essentia — filium essentiatū à patre dicis , à seipso esse neg as — jamsi essentia divina sit in solo patre , vel eripies eam filio , vel partibilem finges , utcunque n●nc centies concedas filium esse verum deum , spoliatus tamen suâ essentiâ titularis solùm erit deus . — individua tibi somnias quorum singula partem essentiae obtineant — deus indefinite est ingenitus , & pater etiam personae respectu ingenitus , filius autem respectu personae à patre est genitus — non abstrahimus personas ab essentia , sed quamvis in ea resideant , distinctionem interponimus . hoc sensu individuos tertullianus vocat patrem & filium , non autem ( ut tu stul●e imaginaris ) individua , quae sub specie comprehendantur . to this effect the senate answered valentines subtilties ; i have put it close together , that i might not be tedious , and yet manifest upon what grounds this great wit was condemned by that grave judicious senate . he had one question more , which he tooke much pride in , namely , utrum essentia concurrat in trinitatem ? to which the senate answered , essentia non concurrit ad distinguendas personas , nec tamen personae sine essentiâ sunt — veteres ad personas tantum nomen trinitatis retulerunt — quarum rerum dices esse trinitatem ? respondes , tria concurrere , essentiam , filium , & spiritum . hinc verò plane perspicitur te essentiam filii & spiritus exinanire . this conceit of valentinus , that the essence , sonne , and spirit , make the trinity , did at once deny the person of the father , and the divine essence of the sonne and spirit ; for , observe how he puts in the essence to make up the trinity , and so left out the person of the father , and by opposing the other two persons to the divine essence , he did imply , that they had an essence different from the divine essence . valentine having received this full answer from the senate , was much enraged , but upon second thoughts , he fell to his devotions , made some shew of repentance , and seemed to be satisfied ; nay , hee proceeded so far as to write to the senate , and acknowledge that he was fully convinced by the cleare and solid reasons laid downe by the consistory , in their answer to his objections : nay , farther yet , he descended to particulars , and confessed that they had manifestly proved , that those three grounds upon which all his fancies were built , were all most false and absurd . first , saith he , i have offended in that whilest i affirmed , the onely god of israel to be the father of iesus christ , i considered not that by opposing the onely god to christ , i denied christ to be god . secondly , i was too rash in considering the divine essence out of the three persons , and concluding from thence , that the essence and the trinity of persons made a quaternity : for now i perceive that the divine essence cannot be considered anywhere , but in the three persons . thirdly , i have offended , in that i said the person of the father was sophisticall . upon these rotten ruines ( saith valentine ) did i build many false consequences , which now i doe abhor and detest , and professe that i beleeve the doctrine of the trinity in the sense of your consistory ; o my conscience hath beene wounded for my inconsiderate answers to that excellent divine and servant of god john calvin ! but i have acknowledged my fault with hearty sorrow , and i make no question but the searcher of hearts hath forgiven me ; i beseech you likewise to forgive me , for i beleeve that the trouble of my minde will bring forth such fruits of repentance in my future conversation , as will wipe off this offensive blot wherewith now i am bespotted and stained , i hope the clemency of the holy ministers is such , that they will receive such a miserable stray beast as i am into their fold againe , and triumph at my conversion . hee proceeded farther yet , made a solemne and orthodoxe confession of his faith , and a recantation of his errors on the 29. of august 1558. at last having abjured his errors under his hand , the senate in hope that his repentance was cordiall and sincere , they commanded him to walke bare-headed , bare-legged and bare-foote thorow every street in the city , with a trumpet blown before him , and a light in his hand , then to kneele downe , aske pardon of the senate , and burne all his heretical doctrines with his owne hand , all which he did upon the second of september following . behold the mercy of geneva to one that was but hopefull , though he had beene an heretick , a schismatick , a seducer , they forgave him , and gave him leave to come forth of prison , without taking any sureties , because he pleaded that he was a stranger , and poore , onely they tooke an oath of him , that he should not depart the city without their licence : but he soone brake his oath , and fled not far off to gribaldus and alciatus , two of his owne stampe , and faction ; but he met there with a governour of a resolute spirit , who began to enquire into his dangerous opinions , and being fully informed of their desperate malignancy , he committed him to prison for a while , but not long after released him , and gave him a faire warning , but no sooner he enjoyed his liberty , but he presently published his opinions in print , and abused the governour with a dedication , as if the book had been published by the governors consent and authority . not long after he travails to lyons where he was imprisoned for the space of 50. days , but he pretended that he did only oppose calvin in the carriage of some controversies , and by that meanes the antichristian spirit , which reignes in the bosome of papists , did incline them to forgive and release him ; it seems the papists cares not what article of faith be denyed , nor how much jesus christ be dishonoured , so calvin be opposed , for by this silly shift he got o●t twice from the papists . confessionem it a potuit attemper are ut à papist is admitteretur , solùm evangelicas ecclesias , & nominatim calvinum perstringens , &c. and by that means he made his first escape ; his second escape was obtained by the selfe same shift . libellum antidotorum & confessionem sic potuit attemperare ut judicaretur solum calvinum impugnare , non ipsam trinit atem ideoque solutus carceribus dimissus est ; as aretius relates in his history of valentine . but hee was not satisfied yet , unlesse he could beguile protestants as well as papists , he went therefore over into poland , and joyned with alciat , and blandrate , in seducing the polonian churches , he confirmed his doctrines by sophistry , some fragments out of the fathers , and some pieces of the alcor●● , to shew that he intended to please the turks , as well as the papists , and to quarrell only with the protestants ; his friend alciat turned direct mahometist being led to it by his principles ; but valentine expressed himself in a more reserved and cunning way then alciat or blandrate , whereupon there fell out some difference between them , and so by gods providence they did the lesse hurt in poland , but there they continued above two years , but at last the king of poland took notice of them , and intended to have published an edict against their hereticall blasphemies , but then the antichristian spirit stirred up cardinal hosius , to suggest another course to his majesty : but god moved the king to banish all strangers , innovatours in doctrine , and perturbers of the peace , out of his kingdome , upon the 5. of march , in the yeare 1566. being banished out of poland , and knowing that calvin was dead , he thought fit to return into the old quarters , never dreaming that he should have faln into the hands of the old governour , whom he had formerly a bused in so high a nature ; but by divine providence the same person though it was not his turne , was governour of that province , ( vide supra , p. 10. ) as aretius declares , gaium ipsum accedens , cui idē adhuc praefectus ( prorogat â forte ipsi extra ordinem ejus provinciae administratione ) praeerat . valentine thought it his best course , to put a good face upon the matter , and challenge any man to dispute with him , but the governour well knowing , that he had been often disputed with , and fairly admonished , cryed , fiat quod justum est , and clapt him up close prisoner , upon the 11. day of june , 1566. the province being under the jurisdictiō of the senate of bern , valentine appealed from the governor of gaium to the senate of bern , & he was brought thither upon the 19. day of july . when he was examined , the senate charged him with heresy , perjury , blasphemy , schism ; and over and above that , he had joyned with alciat and blandrate , in seducing the simple people . to which he answered , that he had nothing to do with either of thē , for alciat , saith he , is a mahumetan , and blandrate is a sabellian and samosatenian ; he complained that those churches which were called evangelicall , or reformed churches , were still too much enslaved to the pope ; and yet when he was among the papists he saw his own confession , of that which he called his faith , passed currant enough . nostras ecclesias damnari quasi adhuc papatui servientes , quum interim ipse inter papistas constitutus posset confessionibus editis elabi . he was questioned for a book which he dedicated to the king of poland , in which he repeated the confession of his faith , which was confuted at geneva , and subjoyned his book of antidotes , in which he indeavours to refute certain theses collected out of augustines 15. bookes , de trinitate , and the 13. chapter of calvins first book of institutions , which treats likewise of the trinity . finally , he made some sharp annotations upon athanasius , and confirmed his own opinion out of the alcoran . the senate picked out all his calumnies , impostures , blasphemies , heresies old and new . wherein valentine agreed with arius , is shewen by aretius , in the 8. chapter of his history ; if any man desire to peruse the determinations of justin martyr , ignatius , tertullian , augustine in this great article of the trinity , he may read them at large in the same history , from the 13. to the 17. chapter . i must hasten to bring valentine to his deserved punishment ; the senate had treated with him , from the 5. of august to the 9. of september , and he remained still stubborn , and pertinacious in his blasphemies , and therefore the senate pronounced sentence of death upon him , which was accordingly executed ; for he could not by prayers , teares , arguments , entreaties , be wrought upon to change his mind : he had a faire warning given him before , by the senate of geneva , if he had had the grace to have taken it , their charge ranne high , and their admonition was propheticall . filium dei quem praedicamus , in diabolum transfiguras . deum quem colimus , vocas deum turcarum , multaque ejus generis , sed vide miser ne te praecipitaverit tuus furor ut voces emitteres quae per jugulum redeant . it is now time to draw the curtain and look for socinus who most of this while , played least in sight , till he went quite out of sight , in the yeare 1562. laelius socinus was the tutor and unckle , faustus socinus was the nephew and disciple ; laelius did contribute materials , faustus added form and method to that monstrous body of errours and blasphemies which we call socinianisme . laelius socinus was borne in the yeare , 1525. his parents were of good rank and quality , his father was styled , ic . torum princeps . the life of socinus is written by a polonian knight , who was tender of his honour , who hath also set forth a dissertation , which he desires may be prefixed before the works of faustus , or rather the notions of laelius digested into order by faustus ; and out of those two treatises we may pick something to give light to the originall of socinianisme ; but we are most beholding to d. calovius , who hath handled this argument more distinctly , then any man that i have met with , and he saith that about four yeares after servetus his death in the year 1557. laelius socinus did underhand encourage them who had raked in servetus ashes , and blowed some coales that were yet alive , and from thence raised a blacker flame . laelius then , no doubt , favoured valentine , for about the year 1558. valentine began to shew himself , and in that year , the italian church put forth their orthodox confession about the trinity at geneva , as hath been already shewed . moreover the polonian knight saith , that laelius did take speciall care of his country-men , quodque praecipue suos erudierit italos : and though laelius did keep his most usuall residence amongst the helvetians , yet his letters travelled up and down the world , and he now and then visited his countrymen in person , who were banished into poland , and germany ; he went twice on pilgrimage , to gaine some proselytes in poland , first in the year , 1551. and afterwards in the yeare , 1557. and there he infected many of the nobles with his pestilent heresies , which have found such good entertainment ever since , that poland doth to this very day ( the lord of heaven be mercifull to them ) labour under that deadly disease . but it was laelius his chief desire to instruct his three brethren , celsus , cornelius , and camillus , in that which he called his religion ; and though they lived farre asunder , ( celsus enim bononiae , reliqui senis agebant ) yet they held such intimate correspondence , that the seeds of this heresy were mutually cherished by their frequent letters . but his nephew faustus was his best scholar , and therefore by divers hints and intimations best acquainted with the secrets of his art . ingenio nepotis confisum plura divinanti innuisse , quàm discenti tradidisse ; ( saith the polonian knight ) non dissimulato inter amicos praesagio pleniùs haec atque foelicius à fausto orbi prodenda ; and faustus socinus doth acknowledge that he did owe all his mysterious knowledge to his unckle only , ( for he was never taught of god ) praeter unum laelium patruummeum — vel potius praeter paucula quaedam ab ipso conscripta & multa annotata , nullum prorsus magistrum me habere contigit . epist. ad maro . sq. you may read particulars in d calovius ( pag. 2. & sequ. ) i need not therefore descend to particulars since the confession is so generall ; only be pleased to observe that the heresy doth directly strike at the nature , person , offices , satisfaction , sacraments of christ . and as the arminians are much offended with the ninth chapter to the romanes , so the socinians are as much offended with the first chap. of the gospel according to saint iohn ; it was therefore laelius one of his master-pieces to pervert that scripture by a devilish gloss . i dare not give a more gentle epithet : faustus doth confesse that his unckle laelius did contribute all the stuffe out of which he framed his exposition upon the first part of the first chapter of saint john ; illam verborum johannis expositionem , & quae ad eandem adserendam produxit , sese magnâ ex parte è laelii sermonibus , dum adhuc viveret , & post ejus mortem ex aliquibus ipsius scriptis sumpsisse & deprompsisse . v. frag. duor . script . socin. & epist. 1. ad dudith . pag. 13. but though laelius soci●us carried matters thus closely , and did all by sleight of wit and hand , yet about 3. yeares before his death he was shrewdly suspected for a seducer , his brother cornelius was apprehended , the rest fled for fear , faustus his nephew and disciple , fled quite out of italy , to lyons in france , laelius in the mean time died in the yeare 1562. and the 37. yeare of his age , as calovius assures me : cum faustus aliquandiu lugduni in gallia viveret , laelius interi●s tiguri extinctus est anno 1562. aetatis ejus septimo supra trigesimum . all laelius his notes were i beleeve committed to faustus , qui patruo suo laelio emortualis extitit , as the same author , de origine theol. soc. § . 25. and therefore certainly most of his opinions would have died with him , had not this unlucky faustus poysoned the world with them . for faustus himself acknowledges that laelius was very sparing in opening himself , except it were in some lighter controversies . nolebat ille sententiam suamnisi in levioribus quibusdam controversiis omnibus aperire , ne turbarentur ecclesiae , & infirmi quorum maximam semper habuit rationem offenderentur , & à vero dei cultu ad idola fortasse iterum adducerentur . frag. f. socini disp. de christi naturâ p. 5. observe by the way that the socinians doe not much differ from the papists in any point in controversie between the papists and reformed churches , unlesse it be in the point of idolatry . but indeed there was one reason more why laelius was so wary , he knew how it fared with michael serv●tus in the year 1553. & that severe example might well keep him in awe for 8. or 9. years after , about which time he died : and indeed faustus seems to glance at some such reason , for he saith laelius had observed that there was a custome which grew in request in some churches , ut execrabiles haberentur quicunque adversus receptas sententias vel mutire quidē ausi essent , in the place forecited . nay i can easily guesse at a third reason yet , because laelius had in former time before he was poysoned with servetus his doctrines taught the same truths which are generally received in the reformed churches , and if he should have retracted so many opinions , the people would not have beleeved him in any thing he had taught , but would have quite faln off to popery againe , as he conceived : for the people had a great opinion of his doctrine , though he was neither doctour nor pastor in the church . neve tandem divina veritas ab eo praedicata ( quineque pastoris neque doctoris officio in ecclesia fungeretur ) ob auctoris non parvam ( i beleeve it should be , though 't is printed magnā ) auctoritatē magna christiani orbis detrimento passim rejiceretur . faustus disp ▪ de christi natura , pag. 6. it was therefore laelius his master-plot to propound doubts & questions to such famous men as calvin , & others in the reformed churches , as if he intended to gain some farther light ( when indeed he sought for further advantage ) by their determinations . quod tamen ut omnem offensionem vitaret addiscendi tantum studio a se fieri dicebat : qua tamen ratione ab initio idem vere ab eo factum fuisse verisimile est , quare etiam discipulum semper se , nunquam autem doctorem profitebatur . faustus ubi supra . master calvin did easily perceive his subtilty , and therefore gave him a faire but sharp admonition about the calends of january , 1552. as the polonian knight doth confesse : si tibi per aereas illas speculationes ( saith calvin ) volitare libet , sine me quae so humilem christi discipulum ea meditari quae ad fidei meae aedificationem faciunt — quod pridem testatus sum , serio iterum moneo , nisi hunc quaerendi pruritum mature corrigas , metuendum esse ne tibi gravia tormenta accersas . faustus saith that his uncle was snatched away by an untimely death , non sine dei consilio , that so those great mysteries which god had revealed to none but laelius , might be made known unto the world . cùm statim fere post mortem ejus , eorum quae ipse palam docere non audebat pars aliqua & literis consignari , & passim divulgari est coepta ; id quod eo vivente nunquam fortasse contigisset , amicis ex iis quae ipse scripserat non adhuc plene edoctis , & adversus praeceptoris voluntatem aliquid eorum quae ab ipso didicerant in vulgus prodere minime audentibus . hac scilicet ratione deus quae illi uni patefecerat omnibus manifesta esse voluit . faustus ubi supra , pag. 6. & 7. i am at this great paines of transcribing , because socinian bookes are so deare , every man will not pay a groat a sheete , the price that i am forced to , onely that i may declare the truth ; so much for laelius . faustus socinus the nephew of laelius was borne in the yeare 1539 , two houres and three quarters before sun-rising on the fift of december ; so scrupulous are some in calculating the nativity of this monster ; and he himselfe tooke notice of it in his epistle ad excellentissimum quendam virum ; he was of no meane parentage , his father was by name alexander socinus , and for his policie , subtilitatum princeps , as he was deservedly stiled ; his mother was nobly descended , the polonian knight hath shewen her descent , matrem habuit agnetem burgesii petruccii senenfis quondam reipub. principis ac victoriae piccolomineae filiam . he studied the lawes till he was about three and twenty yeares of age , and then hee betooke himselfe to the great duke of hetruria his court , where he spent twelve yeares , onely he had so much leisure at court , as to write a booke about the authority of the scripture , in which he doth slily pervert the scriptures , and lay a ground for all his hereticall blasphemies . this is all the account that can be given of him for 35. yeares . i doe not heare of any great brags ( though the socinians doe make loud brags of him ) of his logique , philosophy , schoole-divinity , the learned tongues , onely he spent some two or three yeares in digesting his uncles notes , and then thought he had learning enough to contradict all the fathers and councels , and undertooke to censure all the reformed churches , and to dispute with the greatest scholars in the world : the presumption of his wit , besides the badnesse of his cause , did betray him to his adversaries , especially in the first prizes he played , and he was so subtile as to seeme ingenuous in acknowledging such oversights as he could not possibly conceale : quod vero ais ( saith faustus to puccius ) supellectilem meam hebraeam & graeeam — teipsum latere non potest ejusmodi meam supellectilem non valde curtam modò , sed propemodum nullum esse ; graecos enim fontes , ut egomet omnibus dico , leviter admodum degus●avi , hebraeos vix dum attigi , &c. socin. resp. ad def. puccii , pag. 49. and he confesses that he made a great flourish in the world before he had any logick , hee had vapoured against puccius , palaeologus , volanus , and divers others , he had composed a commentary on the first part of the first chapter of s. iohn , and on the seventh to the romans , his animadversions in theses posn . de trino & uno deo , & alia quaedam imperfecta , as he saith , cum nondum dialecticae ullam operam dedissem , ut post hac non mireris si in meis scriptis multa deprehenderis minus rectè tradita ac conclusa . epist. ad excellentissimum quendam virum . it was no wonder indeed if a man that understood neither greek nor hebrew , nor logick , should give many interpretations , and draw many conclusions which will not hold . now whether after the delicacies of the court , and 35. yeares of his age mis-spent , he was so apt to mould his stiffe braines , and new-cast them into a logicall forme , let the world judge . socinus then was not the greatest scholar in the world , though hee thought himselfe able to teach all the church , and all the world . the polonian knight acknowledges that he was of an hasty cholerique disposition , praecipitem ad bilem natura formaverat ; but it seemes his heat did evaporate at court , in vita a●licâ deferbuisse juvenilem illum socini astum , qui plerumque magna in magnos lapsus pr●cipitat ingenia ; and yet marcellus squarcialupus socinus his good friend doth often complaine of him for his rashnesse , &c. as calovius shewes at large : you may reade plentifull testimonies cited at length , consid. th. socin. pag. 13. & 15. to him therefore i referre you . faustus then had more subtilty then learning ; when he was not able to prove his opinions , he told his auditours , haec si vera non sint , verisimilia saltem & probabilia deprehendetis . he was of a ma●ignant wit , hee knew how to disgrace truth by scoffes and slanders , he thought to affright weake spirited men from the protestant religion , by telling them that they held opinions ( in particular that christ is god ) which made christian religion ridiculous to iewes and turkes , et exteris denique omnibus , but names none else . haecque & hujusmodi alia quaedam , quorum ansam illis dedit graeca vox * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ingeniose quidem ( ut illis videtur ) & foeliciter comminiscuntur quae omnia — cùm ridicula magna ex parte appareant efficitur ( proh dolor ! ) ut jesu christi religio — & judaeis & turcis & exteris denique omnibus maximè sit ludibrio . explicat . cap. prim . ioh. pag. 9. our superstitious men of late pressed us to comply with them , in hope of converting papists from their superstition , by conforming our selves to the selfe same superstition , and now the socinians would have us to deny christ to be god , that we may convert turkes and iewes to the christian faith : as if the best way to convert men to the christian faith , were to deny a prime article of our christian faith ; or as if jews and turks would have a better opinion of christ , if the christians should deny him to be god , and so harden them in their beloved blasphemies ; and yet faustus socinus saith his friends did encourage him to write against that inveterate figment of the divine nature of christ , hac enim ratione — & iudaeos & turcas ad christianam religionem allici posse , qui portentosis istis opinionibus quae christianae fidei axiomata esse creduntur ab eâ amplectenda semper sunt deterriti . faustus , ubi supra , pag. 2. i should tyre out my reader , if i should but reckon up the tricks and devices of this faustus ; for he pretended just as our translator here , to be a reformer of the reformers , nay of the reformation it selfe ; he makes many glorious pretences in his booke called solutio scrupulorum . god ( saith he ) in this last age intends to make many new discoveries , and to reforme his church more thorowly then ever . luther he confesses hath discovered truths enough to carry us to heaven ; zuinglius and oecolampadius reformed the church in matters of great weight and moment ; they are justly to be extolled , because they have purged the church from superstition and idolatry , and caused all false worships to be abhorred ; but he doth very slily intimate , that it was now left to him to confute all errors which luther , zuinglius and oecolampadius had not observed in the church ; for saith he , though the idols temple is laid levell with the ground , no man hath as yet set up the temple of christ : nay he goes farther , nec caementa & lapides ad illud extruendum parari ; and we may truly say , socinus lapides loquitur , as the comedian said ; and he knows full well how to daube with untempered morter . he hath written two other pestilent books , in which he hath most cunningly vented his poyson , one is a booke which i never saw , de ss. scripturae authoritate , which calovius tels is one of his most subtile pieces , and seemes to be one of his first essayes : dominicus lopez a jesuit was so taken ( or mistaken ) with it , as to print it in the yeare , 1588. the other pamphlet is a briefe discourse , de causâ ob quam creditur aut non creditur evangelio iesu christi . in this second he speakes plainer then in the former , as they say who have read both , and they conceive that it was purposely put forth as a commentary upon the other ; for socinus did speake more freely still every yeare then other , accordingly as hee saw his discourses entertained and applauded by potent abettours ; he did not put his name to his commentary upon iohn , till he saw how it would take ; libuit antequam nomen nostrum prodamus aliorum exigui hujus laboris nostri judicius cognoscere . explic. ioh. p. 4. and calovius saith , he did not put his name to it till whole churches ( congregations i suppose he meanes ) had subscribed to socinus his tenets , calovius de origine theol. soc. p. 19. he gained very much by his feigned modesty , he saith it was his hearty desire to bring all men to his opinion , yet such was his charity and modesty , that he would account them brethren , who counted him an hereticke , and held his opinions to be pernicious , upon condition they did their best , to live in obedience to christs precepts , and sought in a faire way to convince him by scripture , explic. cap. prim . ioh. pag. 4. but though he pretended to be ruled by scripture , it is most evident that all his art was to withdraw men from hearkning to the plainest texts of scripture which doe contradict blinde carnall reason . he taught the world a new way of disputing in divinity ; we were wont to argue thus , whatsoever god saith is true : but god saith thus and thus ; ergo : but he taught us to prove , that such and such a proposition is true by the causes and proper effects first , or else saith he , it is absurd to thinke that god said any thing but truth , and therefore unlesse it can appeare by some demonstrative argument , that such a proposition is true , we must not pitch upon that proposition , as the minde of the holy ghost in any text of scripture ; what ever the words of the text seeme to hold forth unto us , wee must goe looke out for some other sense which is agreeable to right reason . rationis lumen quo deus nos donavit aperte ostendit non debere nec posse corporalem poenam quam unus debeat ab alio persolvi , idque etiam omnium gentium ac seculorum legibus ac consuetudinibus perpetuo & maximo consensu comprobatum sit , as socinus in his tract deservatore ; behold how the light of reason , the laws , nay the customes ( and perchance some of them unreasonable ) of nations must over-rule god , so that god himselfe shall not be believed , if he doe not speake consonantly to my corrurpt reason , and our vaine customes . it is cleare and evident , that whatsoever socinus produces against christs satisfaction , or our justification , is a meere figment of his owne braine , for he onely urges some colourable arguments , which have but a shew or shadow of reason . but i shall not instance in more particulars now , because i desire to passe on and discover socinus his subtilty , in scattering his errors abroad in sarmatia , transylvania , &c. and therefore this shall suffice for the rise of socinianisme . chap. ii. the growth of socinianisme . ill weeds thrive apace ; laelius had sowne his errors , as hath beene already shewen , in some five or sixe yeares , within ten yeares space there were whole congregations submitted themselves to the socinian yoake in sarmatia as doctor calovius assures mee , intra decennium integra ecclesiae accesserunt haeresi ejusdem in sarmatia , consid , th. soc. prooemial . pag. 65. and this heresie did spread so fast in transylvania , that within twenty yeares after there were some hundreds of congregations infected , ut vix triginta elapsis annis aliquot centuriae coetuum talium ibidem numeratae fuerint . ibid. what they maintained upon their first apostasie , may bee seene in a booke , de falsa & vera unius dei , patris , filii , & s. sti. cognitione . it pleased god that franciscus davidis the superintendent of those new perverted proselytes in transylvania , did lay some rubs in the way of faustus socinus ; for this franciscus desired to know why christ should bee worshipped or prayed unto any longer , if hee were not god ? blandrate and faustus did lay their heads together to answer this quere ; but this same franciscus davidis maintained stoutly that invocation and adoration were parts of divine honour due to god alone ; this hapned about the yeare , 1578. some twenty yeares after the stirres which were in the italian church at geneva , ut supra . but faustus and blandrate could not compose the tumults ( or answer the objections ) which franciscus had raised in transylvania , and so faustus socinus was forced to returne with shame enough into poland : but when faustus could not doe what he would , he seemed to be content to joyne with the davidians , as they were called from franciscus davidis , as farre as they would goe hand in hand with him in opposing the reformed churches , and he did prevaile very much in a synod about the yeare , 1588. in other points also which hee did cunningly winde in , and they greedily swallow ; and he prevailed very farre the next yeare in another synod , and within a matter of foure yeares , as calovius saith , he brought over all ( them whom he had wrought upon , to deny the godhead of christ ) to subscribe to the whole body of socinianisme : and no marvaile , for though there are many parts of socinianisme which have no rationall dependance upon the deniall of the godhead of christ ; yet when once men come to be sofar blinded as to deny that glorious truth which shines so clearly in the gospell , it is no wonder if they see nothing at all . besides he was so wise as to strike in with the nobles , and the courtiers , with the most youthfull and sharp witted pastors , and not only with subtile disputants , but smooth popular oratours , men more able to corrupt the people , witnesse petrus steinius ; or statorius , by whose unhappy eloquence the sublimest subtilties of socinus which transcended vulgar capacities , were so explained and smoothed in a popular , but plausible way , that the most refined notions were made familiar to the common people ; infoelici steinii suadâ subtiles & à rudiorum captu remotiores socini sensus populari ratione tradere & flexanimae orationis genio cunctis probare poterat , &c. this blasphemous wretch did travaile , ab extremâ silesiae or a in intimam lithuaniam , that he might spread his errors , though he did thereby often endanger his life : he lived a long time , he was about 66. years of age when he died ; though it was long ere he began to seduce as hath been shewn , yet he had 30. years time to infect a people that were too willing to be infected ; he died , as calovius informs me , in the yeare 1604. tandem anno etatis quinto ultra sexagesimum blasphemam exhalat animam , aerae christianae 1604. vitaque cum gemitu fugit indignata sub umbras . chap. iii. the danger of socinianisme . learned grotius may remember that there was a time when he himselfe thought socini●nisme to be very dangerous , cum haeresis sit venenum ecclesiae , & quidem praesentissimum , sed tamen haereseos aliqui sint gradus , ut sit hac illâ nocentior priorem aliam non reperiri haresi socini , ad cujus etiam mentionem pii omnes exhorreant , in his speech to the states called h. g. pietas . certain all pious men may well tremble at the very mention of socinianisme , at the very repeating of their basphemies . for my part i dare not call them christians , because they deny the godhead and satisfaction of christ , they will not be baptized in the name of the trinity , they labour to pluck up christianity by the roots , and to overthrow the very foundation of religion . i cannot but blot out smalcius his name out of the white roll of christians , if it were but for that one blasphemy , christianus esse potest qui divinam christi essentiam negat . smal , contr. nova monstra . an errour that takes away all prayer to christ , and worship of him , doth utterly destroy christian religion : but the denyall of the godhead of christ doth take away all prayer to christ and worship of him , ergo . this argument was urged by franciscus davidis and simon budnaeus , but fanstus socinus ( ut supra ) was not able to give any satisfying answer to this triumphing reason . the socinians are mad with reason , if they conceive it reasonable to give divine honour to any save god alone . none pretend to be greater enemies to idolatry , then the socinians , and yet they doe clearly maintain this idolatrous principle , namely that divine honour may be given to one whom they conceive to be a meer man , christ blessed for ever . the socinian errour is fundamentall , they deny christs satisfaction , and so overthrow the foundation of our faith , the foundation of our justification ; they deny the holy trinity , and so take away the very object of our faith ; they deny the resurrection of these bodies , and so take away the foundation of our hope ; they deny originall sinne , and so take away the ground of our humiliation , and indeed the necessity of regeneration ; they advance the power of nature , and destroy the efficacy of grace . it is an antichristian errour , because it takes away the very essence and person of iesus christ , for they deny him to be god , and so take away his essence ; they deny him to be the second person in the trinity , and so destroy his very person also . they doe in effect rob him of all his offices , for if christ be not god , he is not that great prophet foretold by moses , who is prince and author of life , act. 3. 15. 22. ad finem , act. 7. 37 , 38. nor can he be a priest able to save by the offering of himself , because the merit of his sacrifice depends upon the dignity of his person : the offering of a meer man cannot satisfy for so many thousands of men : and therefore the socinians having denyed the godhead of christ , deny that he hath given god full satisfaction . nor can christ be a king , who hath an heavenly and eternall kingdome by nature , if he be not god . it is an anti-spirituall errour , for they deny the nature and person of the holy ghost , the speciall grace and saving efficacy of the holy ghost ; they say , we can understand the deepest mysteries of faith , and beleeve in christ without the speciall assistance of the holy ghost . they overthrow the very nature of faith , for they confound faith and workes ; obedience to gods commands is faith it selfe , or the very substance and forme of faith . fides ( quâ justificamur ) obedientiam pr●ceptorum dei non quidem ut effectum , sed ut suam substantiam & formam continet . socin. miscl . p. 162. they destroy the morall law which was delivered by moses , by saying that is imperfect . christ came to fulfill ( that is , say they ) to make the law perfect ; and they overthrow the gospel , by saying that we are justifyed by the workes of the law , and by their confounding of the law of faith , and the law of workes ; they say as the jewes say , that the great work of the messiah is to proclaime and confirme the law , only they adde that it w●● his in●ent , legem mosaicam ceu minus perfectam perficere & locupletare , and therefore they say , christ and his apostles did so often presse obedience to the law , to shew that we are to be justifyed by the works of the law : and hence it is that they call our blessed saviour , mosen mosissimum , as if christ had not preached the gospel , the law of faith , as the apostle calls it , rom. 3. 27. and by this meanes the law of justification by faith alone without the works of the law , which is the scope of the gospel , is quite overthrown . they set open a wide gap to atheisme , by denying that the soule of man can possibly so subsist by it selfe after this life , as to be capable of joy or torment , of reward or punishment ; they may when they please speak plain english , and say , that there is neither heaven nor hell . animadvertendum est ( say they ) christum & apostolos coactos fuisse quodammodo hominum opinionibus , quae tunc plerunque vigebant , se accommodare , quemadmodum satis aperte docet parabola divitis & lazari . nam aliquem in inferno fuisse & ibi torqueri , in sinu abrahae decumbere , sunt plane fictitia , & similia illis , quae poetae de ixione , sisypho , tantalo scribunt : hâc etiam prudentiâ hodie apud vulgus christianorum in hac materiâ utendum , &c. i have transcribed this out of doctor josuah stegman the reverend superintendent of scawenburg , and when ever i cite stegman briefly in the margin , i intend that learned author , and not ioachimus stegman the grand socinian . the socinians desire to take us off from giving any heed to the received interpretations of a fathers or councells , that so they may obtrude their own fancies and conceits upon us as solid , and rationall , most accurate , but very moderate interpretations , vide brev. disq. p. 7. they of all men doe most affect the conduct of their own private spirit , which they call right reason ; and though they pretend that we are more busie in enquiring after the unanimous consent of fathers and councels , then the true sense of the scriptures , yet they doe not endeavour by this out-cry to extoll and enthrone the scriptures , but to set their own private spirit or b judgement in the chaire , which is indeed to make every man a pope . this conceit of theirs cannot but take well with the multitude , for every man ( as luther saith ) is born with a pope in his belly ; and with a pope in his braine too , for every one would faine have his reason , his fancy to sit judge in all controversies , every man is apt to think himself infallible , and that his private iudgement ought to be the publike standard . finally , every one desires to give a toleration or a dispensation to himselfe , that he may be allowed to maintain such opinions and goe on in such courses as are generally condemned by the judgement of learned and pious men . there is another quarrell that they pick with the reformed churches , and that is for extolling their doctours too highly , such as luther , brentius , melancthon , bucer , chemnitius , calvin , beza , zuinglius and the rest , but they would pardon this errour , if they did not oblige other men to stand to the judgement of these and such like reverend authours ; if they might have but their liberty of prophecying according to their own private spirit or judgement they would be content , but that the churches passe their censures upon such as dissent from the most received interpretations of fathers , councels and the reformed divines , though such interpretations seem unreasonable to the private judgement of our acute socinians . but there is a third fault greater then any of the former , & that is , that the reformed divines make the holy spirit speaking in the scriptures ( and shining into the hearts and minds of men by a glorious light to enable them to understand the scriptures ) the judge of controversies , for by this means say they , the judgement of sound reason is made uselesse and of none effect or authority before the illumination of the holy ghost : this is an high fault indeed ; we are it seemes in great danger of being seduced from the dictates of blind carnal reason to follow the light and voice of the scriptures , & the holy spirit . besides , there is another greater danger , if we follow the spirit so much , we shal not be able to answer that seraphique doctour , valerianus magnus , his book , de acatholicorum credendi regulâ iudicio , set forth at prague , 1628. but it may be the book needs no answer , or they that follow the spirit and the scriptures are not at leisure , they have better imployment . but let the socinians speak their minde clearely , then what is it they would have ? why , they would throw the pope out of his chaire , and they would sit there themselves by turnes , that so they may be popes round ; for every man say they hath reason enough before he is inlightned by the holy ghost to judge of the authority of scriptures by histories , and other principles , and to collect out of the scriptures compared , and the foresaid principles , not onely all things necessary to salvation , but many profitable truths besides , though not so necessary . i should be very glad to learne what those other principles are besides the scripture out of which we may collect truths necessary to salvation ; for this you must look into the seventh chapter of this brevis disquisitio , caterùm ad sacrarum literarum anctoritatem & genuinam mentem dignoscendam principia etiam illa quae philosophica appellant advocanda esse . but if a man be no scholar , why , then those principles which are knowne to him by nature , and his owne observation , are the rules whereby hee must examine ; first , whether the scriptures be the word of god , and then , what is the true sense and meaning of them ; if such a man have but a good wit , a little experience ( saith hee ) will serve the turne . nay , he affirmes that it will serve the turne , if by the helpe of those good principles , his owne good wit , and conference with others , he do but heare the summe of those few things which the socinians conceive necessary to salvation , though he never heare or know , that there is any such booke as the booke of god . mr. chillingworth comes very neere this disquisition-monger in his accurate treatise , for he saith , the scripture is not to be believed finally for it selfe , but for the matter contained in it , so that if men did believe the doctrin contained in the scripture , it should no way hinder their salvation not to know whether there were any scripture or no , chap. 2. pag. 65 , 66. i thought it had beene necessary to have received those materiall objects or articles of our faith , upon the authority of god speaking in the scriptures ; i thought it had beene anabaptisticall to have expected any revelation but in the word of god ; for a revelation , nay a supernaturall revelation is necessary to help naturall reason , as the same mr. chillingworth acknowledges . knot had very unhappily branded mr. chillingworth for a socinian , because he maintaineth , that nothing ought or can bee certainly believed , farther then it may be proved by evidence of naturall reason , ( where i conceive , saith mr. chillingworth , naturall reason is opposed to supernaturall revelation ) and whosoever holds so let him be anathema . sect. 28. in his answer to knots direction to n. n. now let mr. chillingworth say that either there is a revelation to be expected out of the word , as the enthyfiasts do , or else let him acknowledge , that god hath ordained the scriptures as the meanes and instruments to reveale saving truths , and let him teach men to depend upon the ordinances of god , and not make men stand at a gaze to expect a revelation in an extraordinary way . or else let him speake plaine , and say there is truth enough written in the hearts of every man by nature to save him , or that it may be learnt from philosophers writings ; let him say as socinus doth , that the substance of the promises is eternall life , that the maine thing god lookes after is practise , that heathens and christians have the same practicall rules written in their heart , and so if a man doe but hope for eternall life by observing these practicall rules ( as many heathens did , witnesse that verse of phocylides , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and the discourses of socrates , plato , hermes , &c. ) hee may be eternally saved ; and then we shall know how free he is from socinidnisme . or else let him confesse , that naturall reason being helped by a supernaturall revelation in the word , is not able to discerne saving truths , so as to beleeve them after a saving manner , without the speciall assistance of the holy ghost , such assistance as is vouchsafed to none but the elect of god , and then i will acknowledge that he is no socinian . but otherwise , if either he thinke as he seemes to thinke , that all the materiall objects which are necessary to salvation , may be knowne out of some other booke then scripture , or by some other meanes ; and that if a man beleeve them meerely as truths probable by reason , and doe not receive those truths as the oracles of god , but dictates of reason , then sure he may be a socinian still ; nay , if he hold a supernaturall revelation by the word to be necessary , it being the meanes which god hath ordained , and so is made necessary to us by gods ordinance ; yet if hee thinke this outward revelation to be sufficient , without the inward and speciall revelation of the spirit , he may be a socinian still . but this by the way , i shall say the lesse of mr. chillingworth , when i come to touch upon his booke ; sure i am , such dangerous principles as these , will beate greene heads from the study of the scriptures , if they be not censured upon every occasion . i know master chillingworth protests that he is willing to stand to the judgement of the catholique church , of this and former ages , to the consent of protestants , the church of england ; but if he put in the papists into the catholicke church , as i beleeve he will ; then he will say the papists doe not agree , and therefore the catholick church of this age is not against the socinians ; nay the fathers doe not all agree , and so there is not a catholick consent of the ancients , as mr. chillingworth i beeleeve did purposely shew at large in the eighteenth section of his answer to n. n. that so he might winde himselfe out the better in this 28. section : nay , peradventure he will put the socinians in for to give a vote , if you aske for the consent of the catholique church of this age , for hee cals them a company of christians in the 29. section ; and though he saith , they are erroneous in explicating ( he doth not say in denying ) the mysteries of religion , & allowing greater liberty in speculative matters , ( so the socinians call the articles of the christian faith ) then any other company of christians doth , or they should doe , yet for their honour he saith , they explicate the lawes of christ with more rigour and lesse indulgence to the flesh then the papists doe , and that is true , but not much for their commendation , because they thereby disgrace the morall law of god , and say it was imperfect , till christ gave new lawes ; but mr. chillingworth was willing to take any occasion to commend them . moreover if mr. chillingworth by the church of england , meane the arch-bishop of canterbury and his faction , then indeed there will not be a generall consent of the church of england against the socinians . once more , if he take in all the arminians , and some iesuited papists , that ( as vertumnus romanus prescribes ) come to church and heare our common prayers , and receive the sacrament in some congregations in this kingdome , though they bee of mr. fisher , or mr. flued his minde , and ranke all these amongst protestants ( for we have had strange kinde of protestants for these twelve yeares last past , ) then i beleeve there will not be a generall consent of such protestants against the socinians ; and so mr. chillingworth may oppose socinianisme , when all these agree together to oppose it . but indeed hee hath one argument which makes me beleeve that he and more of that faction who countenance many socinian errors , doe not agree with the socinians in all points , because socinianisme if it be taken in all its demensions , is such a doctrine by which no man in his right minde can hope for any honour or preferment either in this church or state , or in any other . many men do indeed adventure as farre as they dare this way , onely they are afraid of thwarting the great designe , as i shall hereafter shew . i dare not excuse mr. chillingworths dangerous principles , though i account him a very rationall man , yet i beleeve him to be the more dangerous , i dare not therefore give him that liberty which he gives others , and cry , quisque abundet in sensusuo , because they are not the words of s. paul , though mr. chillingworth father them upon him , chap. 2. pag. 92. the words of the apostle are , let every man be fully perswaded , or assured in his own minde , rom. 14. 5. i goe on to shew the danger of socinianisme . it is an hotch-potch of gentilisme , turcisme , judaisme , and i know not what , they have put in some scruples of christianity to make up the messe . the centuriatours say , that mahomet did compose his alcoran by the helpe of the iewes , and iohannes antiochenus an arian : and truly turcisme doth much savour of iudaisme and arianisme . now socinianisme is compounded of the selfe same ingredients , socinus borrowed very much from servetus , and servetus from the alcoran , as wajekus proves , and socinus doth acknowledge , vide antiwajek . soc. pag. 33. they say we hinder the conversion of the turks , by departing so far from them ; whereas they agree with turks in denying the godhead , eternall generation , meritorious satisfaction of christ , in blaspheming the trinity : paul alciat , and adam neuser , two socinians turned turks ; nay the turks discourse more solidly about the prescience of god , then the socinians , or arminians doe . the resurrection of these very bodies was believed by none but iewes and turkes at first , ( as the socinians would make us believe ) and the protestants have received it from them . they open a gap to an atheisticall libertinisme , by promising salvation to all hereticks , ignorant persons , if they live but chast , sober , just lives , and expect eternall life , for that is the summe of the promises , and they need not know or beleeve more : all the mysteries of faith are by them counted but meere notions , speculations at best , and it is no great matter if men have diverse and contrary opinions about them they may all fare well enough ; truly i thinke one as well as another , if there be neither heaven nor hell . socinians are not to be permitted in any church , for they deny that there is as yet any triumphant church above , nor is it necessary that there should be any militant church here below . the arminians jumpe with them in the same conceit , they say , christ may bee a king without a kingdome , an head without a body : neque verò necesse esse credimus ad hoc ut christus rex & caput maneat in terris ecclesiam veram semper esse . their reasons are , because christs kingdome doth rather consist in his owne soveraigne authority , then in the obedience and subjection of any people . besides , if there were a necessity of it that there must be a church on earth , then christs people would not be a free willing people , and so there would be no spirituall church , if they are not left at liberty , to accept or refuse christ ; sure that is a rebellious liberty , for a liberty to reject christ , is a liberty to rebell . no man they say need inquire after the true church , much lesse is it necessary that he should be a member of the true church , ubinam quaeso est scriptum christum praecepisse ut unusquisque inquirat , & norit quaenam sit vera ecclesia ? socinus de eccles. thes. they would not have any marks given of a true church , i suppose for fear theirs should be discovered to be a false ; but especially they deny , that the pure preaching of the word is a note of the true church , for with jeasting pilate they aske , what is truth ? how shall it appeare , say they , that any church preaches the saving truth ? nay arminians and socinians both tell us , that there is no need of preaching : saving truths are sufficiently manifested they say , and yet it seemes it is not sufficiently manifested to them , for they cannot tell what it is . they doe not see any great use of the sacraments , they cannot believe that the sprinkling of water upon the body , should have any spirituall effects upon the soule ; they cannot believe that our faith can bee strengthened , our pardon sealed , christ and his benefits imparted to us by eating of bread , and drinking wine . now sure a church that is without ministers , sacraments , markes or signes of a true church , would be but an empty titular church , and to such a church onely should socinians be admitted . socinians are not to be suffered in any state , for they will not shew any obedience or respect to magistrates ; they say , they have no power to punish hainous offenders in time of peace , nor have they power to defend themselves or the people by the sword , in time of warre . but especially , they charge the magistrates to beware how they meddle with good honest hereticks , for all hereticks in the opinion of arminians and socinians ( who speake favourably in their owne cause ) are good pious men . what they say of the law of nations , or of a particular state , i had rather you should reade in their writings then in mine . i beleeve your patience is already tyred with this briefe narration , if any desire to be farther satisfied in particulars let them reade this book . chap. iv. whether england hath been , or still is in danger to be farther infected with socinianisme . farther infected i say , for it is too evident that it hath been in some measure already infected with this pestilent heresie . i know the archbishop of canterbury did pretend to crush this cockatrice of socinianisme , but all things being considered , it is to be feared that his canon was ordained for concealing , rather then suppressing of socinianisme ; for he desired that none but his own party should be admitted to the reading of socinian books , it was made almost impossible for any that were not of his party , to take the degree of batchelour of divinity ( i can say more in that point then another ) or at least improbable they should have means to pay a groat a sheet for socinian books . it is well known that the arch-bishop did highly favour , and frequently employ men shrewdly suspected for socinianisme . master chillingworth , to speak modestly , hath been too patient , being so deeply charged by knot for his inclining towards some socinian tenets : no man in saint ieromes opinion ought to be patient in such a a case , and sure no innocent man would be patient . mr. chillingworth hath not yet answered — christianity maintained . the protestants doe not own many of those principles which are scattered in master chillingworths book , and knot could observe that he proceeded in a destructive way , just as the socinians doe . the reformed churches abroad wonder that we could finde no better a champion amongst all our worthies ; they who travailed hither out of forrain parts blessed themselves when they saw so much froath and grounds ; so much arminianisme and vanity in master chillingworths admired peece : what doth it advantage the protestant cause , if the pope be deposed from his infallible chair , and reason enthroned that socinianisme may be advanced ? but i am afraid doctor potter may take it unkindly that i have named master chillingworth before him ; for his grace employed doctour potter first , and he was cryed up as a patr●ne of the protestant profession , but he sowred his calvinisme with so much arminian leaven , and sweetned popery with some such gentle scruples of moderate divinity as they call it , that the jesuites laughed in their sleeves , and knot was so pleasant that he could scarce refrain from laughing openly . that these two great champions doe vent arminian principles is manifest to any man that hath but peeped into their books . now that arminianisme is a fair step to socinianisme hath been sufficiently proved by bodecherus , ( though he hath been derided , he hath not been answered ) peltius , vedelius and others , so that i need say no more in that point . what art and care hath been used to propagate the arminian errours in england , would require a large volume , and i had laid open all their sleights and projects ( had not my bookes and notes been seised on ) to the full : god may give me opportunity to say something to that point yet before i finish my course . the church of scotland complains of his grace , for he first protected wederburn , when he fled from scotland for fear of the church-censures , because this wederburn had poysoned the young students in divinity with arminianisme in the new colledge at saint andrews ; his grace made the same wederburn bishop of dumblane , that so he might be dean of the kings chappell , and vent all his arminian errours in the royall chappell , in despight of all the presbyteries . then his grace chose out 24. royall chaplaines , such as were most likely to preach the deanes arminian tenets to the state when they saw that all preferment did run that way . i will not say any thing of master sydserf , doctor forbes , &c. you may read the complaint at large in a book entitled ladens . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or the canterburian self-conviction . but that which did most mischiefe , was a large declaration procured by his grace , but sent in the kings name into scotland , in which their general assembly was much condemned for passing any censure upon arminians . besides , his grace had two scouts in ireland , the bishop of derry , and doctour chappell : behold three kingdomes infected at once with this deadly disease , by the pestilent subtilty of one arch-bishop . but i shall make it appear that we have gone nearer to socinianisme yet . acontius was ( as learned peltius calls him ) clandestinus socinianorum assecla ; now i have wondred often what was the reason that acontius was new printed in oxford by doctour potters book-binder . creature i might say , if i did affect the language of the times . they might as well have printed bonfinius , for i finde him joyned with acontius , they were both sneaking socinians , they followed socinus just as nicodemus followed christ , by stealth & in the dark . iacobus acontius & bonfinius socini clandestini asseclae . judicious and learned pareus not long before his death writ a letter on the first of march , 1613. ad n. n. in which he expresseth himselfe after this manner . arminium vestrum sociniani in polonia expresse ut suum nuper nominarunt , unà cum quodam bonfinio & acontio clandestinis asseclis , quorum authoritate postularunt àfratribus orthodoxis fraternitatem , isti verò fortiter recusarunt . acta ad me misit synodus lublinensis , cui nuper postridie natalis domini respondi , &c. pareus was a man of a very peaceable disposition , willing to compose all differences which might fairely and honestly be compounded , as appeares by his irenicum , and therfore his judgement is to be the more valued , but you see he doth not vent his own private opinion , but declares the judgement of the synod ; i beleeve that every impartiall reader will think this passage very considerable . the socinians have one principle which draws a great party after them of all heretikes , & sectaries . nothing ( say they ) is fundamentally necessary to salvation but only faith or obedience to the commands of christ , for they make faith & obedience all one , ut supra . now acontius was a great stickler in this point , and therefore learned peltius saith , this opinion did open a wide gap to let in all heresies into the church , and yet acontius and the socinians thought nothing else fundamentall but obedience to christs precepts ; men might deny the godhead of jesus christ , and almost any article of the christian faith , and yet be christians good enough in their conceit . nihilque tandem fore fundamentale praeter istud ( scil. obedientiam mandatorum ) ex mente acontii & socinianorum positum . see peltius his epistle dedicatory , prefixed before his harmony . well might acontius his book be intitled stratagemata satanae : but sorry i am that doctour potter should be thought to have such an hand in publishing of it , that it was known in oxford by the name of doctour potters stratagems . i know acontius doth in that book mince the matter , but the book is so much the more dangerous , and cannot but poyson young students more insensibly and irrecoverably . besides acontius his pretence of moderation and charity will work much upon men that understand not his stratagems , they will conceive that he grew every day more moderate and more a accurate also , and that he complyed so far with the socinians meerly out of a desire of peace . but though the book be close and dedicated to queen elizabeth , yet ever and anon he lets fall some hopes of being saved without the acknowledgement of those mysteries which the church hath long held for necessary articles of faith . what did the man that was cured of the palsy beleeve ? why , ( saith he ) he did beleeve as it was fit , that that man who is called iesus was from god , ( mark he doth not say that he was god ) and in favour with god , and hoped that he should be healed by him , and yet his sins were forgiven . credebat enim ut par est hominem eum qui iesus diceretur à deo esse & apud eum gratiosum , itaque sperabat per eum sanitatem se posse adipisci . illa verò eum cognita etiam habuisse omnia quae diu pro articulis fidei necessariis habuit ecclesia quàm sit verisimile , cuique judicandum relinquo . sunt & alia multa loca quae eódem prorsus tendunt . nay he conceives abraham the father of the faithfull to have been ignorant of those heads of divinity which we count articles of faith , fundamentall articles . abraham , saith he , beleeved that he should have off-spring , that in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed , that canaan should be his , caeterum de religionis apicibus istis ignorare opinantur ( scil. reformati ) fas non esse mirum est silentium quin , ipsum etiam salutis mysterium per ejus semen tecte admodum obscureque promittitur . i put in ( scil , reformati , ) for doubtlesse it is a jerk at the reformed churches , and so that passage fore-cited , ecclesia diu habuit , is certainly a jerk for the nicene fathers , athanasius and those ancients which required such a distinct confession of faith . you see he seems to leave it doubtfull whether abraham did beleeve in christ or no ; these oblique passages and many such in his third book especially , doe shew what a good mind he had to favour them , who at that time about the yeare 1565. did call the articles of the christian faith into question . no marvaile if he wrote so warily when servetus had been made such an example , in the yeare 1553. besides laelius socinus was now dead , and faustus not grown up to his maturity . sabellius he saith was an heretike for saying that the father did not differ from the son , but he is not so forward to call them heretikes who deny that the son hath the same nature with the father ; he tells us that * we must beleeve christ to be the sonne of god , and to be made man , but he doth not presse us to beleeve that christ is god . we need not wonder at his moderation , when he is very tender even about transubstantiation , and unwilling to appear on either side . magna jamdudum fuit & vere tragica controversia de interpretatione verborum corum , accipite , hoc est corpus meum ; non necesse est autem me hoc loco utrarum sim partium aperire , tantum catenus quidem utrarumque esse me profiteor , quod utrosque adveram dei ecclesiam pertinere nihil prorsus dubitem , lib. 3. — . and a little after , de verborum sententiâ lis est , non de veritate : this is an excellent device indeed to help off the grossest heretikes , and say that they only differ from us about the meaning of some places of scripture . christ saith he bids all come unto him that are heavy laden , and what saith he , will you of your own head say to any man that is comming to christ , heus tu ! frustra accedis qui hoc & illud non credas ? but if you reply that acontius hath not reckoned some points of religion which are of high concernment , and therefore you may safely tell a man unlesse he beleeve them he cannot be saved ; he hath endeavoured to prevent your reply by this excuse ; si miraris inter ea quae recensuimus cognitu necessaria non numerari quosdam summo quamvis loco habitos religionis apices , evolve diligenter , examine saith he whether those high points could be known under the old testament to the people of israel , &c. this is just the socinian device , i will not trouble you any longer with the unsavory discourse of that rotten author , whose main stratageme was a pretended moderation and feigned charity . let us now passe on to some later authours ; doctor francis white was a man countenanced by the arch-bishop to write against the sabbath , and in his epistle dedicatory to the arch-bishop , well knowing what would please his graces tooth , he saith that we are beholding to the testimony of the bishops , for the weightiest matters in religion , and amongst the rest he saith for the eternall deity of the blessed saviour ; it seemes if the christian world had not given credit to the testimony of bishops , the eternall deity of christ had not been acknowledged by christians ; what if bishops had lost their votes , and credit some ages since , must christ have lost his deity , or at least the honour of it ? is there nothing written in scripture concerning the eternall deity of christ ? this is just indeed as tertullian saith , nisi deus homini placuerit , deus non erit . this book was printed in the year 1635. i need say nothing of that little pamphlet about schisme , printed not long since , because other men have said so much of it , i am credibly informed that when the author of it was asked by a great person in this kingdome , what he thought of the socinians , he answered , if you could secure my life i would tell you what i think ; and truly he hath told us what he thinkes in this little tract , viz. that arianisme was but a rent in the church upon matter of opinion ; p. 9. that those passages in our publique formes which offend the arians , are but private fancies , and therefore he desires there may be such a leiturgy as the arians may not dislike . p. 10. and then the socinians and protestants might joyn in one congregation . but must we not say that christ is very god of very god that he is the great god , the true god , god blessed for ever , for fear we offend the arians , socinians , &c. must we not worship the trinity of persons , in the unity of the godhead ? his grace will peradventure thinke it long till he heare what i have to say to his own learned book . i must confesse there is good learning in that book of his , which was printed 1624. i should doe him wrong if i should deny it ; and though there are some passages which sound ill , yet i have charity enough to put a good construction upon most of them ; but if a prudent reader will but compare that book and the enlargement of it together , which was printed in the yeare 1639. he will find a great deale of alteration in that second edition , or rather second book , for it is indeed another book . i shall give you a taste of some passages in the latter book which are not in the former , that you may see how much his grace had altered his religion in those 15. yeares . in the 76. page he saith , the mysteries of faith doe not contradict reason , for reason by her own light can discover how firmly the principles of religion are true . he doth not say reason by the light of scripture , or by the light of the spirit , but reason by her own light can discover how firmly the principles of religion are true . the socinians lay this principle as their foundation , and keep so close to it that they reject the weightiest articles of the christian faith ; because reason cannot discover them to be true by her own light , that is reason ( ante spiritus sancti illustrationem ) before the illumination of the holy ghost , as they explain themselves in their brevis disquisitio , cap. 3. de spiritu sancto . and upon the same ground they doe reject the received interpretations of scripture , because reason cannot discover how firmly they are true . can the arch-bishop make it appeare by the light of reason , that there shall be a resurrection of these selfe same bodies ; that there are three persons and one god : that the word was made flesh ; that god was made man ; that christ was born of a virgin ; that god justifies many thousands of the ungodly by the obedience and satisfaction of one man ; must we not beleeve these articles till reason by her own light , without the illumination of the holy ghost , doth discover them to be true , and how firmly they are to be beleeved because true ? for that i suppose the arch-bishop means , when he saith , reason can discover how firmly these principles of religion are true : why doe the socinians so often challenge us to be tryed by reason , by common sense , by the judgement of all men , but because they conceive , reason by her own light can discover how firmly the principles of religion are true ? i know the socinians doe talk much of the offices of christ , but they receive nothing from the scripture , concerning christs offices , but what is as they say agreeable to reason . they say likewise that it is necessary to salvation to know the promises of god , but they affirme that it will suffice , if a man be but acquainted with the substance of them , if he doth but hope for a better life after this , which even some heathens did without the knowledge of christ or his gospell . reason by its own light did discover unto them that the good and great god had prepared eternall happinesse for our immortall soules : if this then be enough ( as the socinians say it is ) to receive all things as principles of religion which reason by her own light can discover to be true , ( and how neer the arch-bishop comes to them , let the reader judge ) then the philosophers , especially the platonists , were in an happy condition , & it will be lawfull for a man to cry out aloud , sit anima mea cum philosophis , and he shall never be thought an atheist , nay shall passe for a good christian . there was a sermon preached to sir iohn byron when he was in oxford , which favoured strong of this heathenish divinity , and sir john gave the preacher solemne thanks for his paines . let us then canonize the heathens for saints , and put hermes , phocylides , pythagoras , socrates , plato , plotinus , cicero , zoroaster , iamblichus , epictetus , simplicius , into our rubrike , and let not aristotle , alexander or averroes be left out . the heathens did endeavour to keep gods commands in hope of a better life . what doe the socinians , or indeed arminians require more ? now reason by her own light can discover that i ought to love god , better then the world or my selfe , because he is the chiefest good ; reason tells me that i must doe as i would be done to ; the law of nature is written in the hearts of heathens , the writings of philosophers doe abound with principles of morality and good life , and socinus saith , it is sufficient for a mans salvation to know what god hath commanded and forbidden ; and if he erre in other points , he shall not be shut out of heaven , for such errours as reason cannot by her own light discover to be errors . in like manner the arch-bishop , if he will be true to this principle he hath laid down , must affirm that no man shal be dāned for rejecting any articles of the christian faith , which reason by her own light cannot discover to be true , and so manifestly true that they ought to be firmly beleeved . if this be not socinianisme in the highest , let the impartiall reader judge . that the arch-bishop hath added this passage to his old book ( perchance upon master chillingworths weighty inducements ) will appear if the reader be pleased to compare the 76. page of his new book with the 21 page of his old book . there is another suspicious passage in the 25. section of the arch-bishops relation , he descants upon a place of epiphanius , pag. 185. and 186. epiphanius said , that in peter were found even {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the very niceties , and exactnesse of the christian faith , saith the arch-bishop , and presently gives this reason . for he professed the godhead of the sonne and of the holy ghost , pag. 186. how will the socinians triumph when they heare the primate of all england discoursing of the godhead of christ and the holy ghost as niceties ? i grant the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is most commonly used in an ill sense , but certainly epiphanius used it here in a good sense , which the arch-bishop could not but see , and therefore used the word exactnesse , but to gratify the socinians he puts in niceties , as if he had said , if you will be exact , you may say that christ is god , but that 's but a nicety , somewhat more then needs , a man may be saved without it ; for the arminians say athanasius was too bold to prefixe that proud preface before his creed , whosoever will be saved , &c. and i make no doubt but his grace was led much by them , he had such high thoughts of the arminian conceits . the arch-bishop doth acknowledge that in the old latine edition at paris , pag. 497. it is thus translated , in hoc omnes quaestiones ●c subtilitates fidei inveniuntur ; therefore hee might have said that all the mysteries of faith were maintained by peter , though by the malice of anti-spirituall men even the godhead of the holy ghost , and such like mysteries were made questions , or at best counted subtilties , and niceties . moreover when the arch-bishop comes to speak of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the sonne , he perswades the church of rome to moderation , and then le ts fall a sweet bit for the socinians to feed upon , pag. 25. and rome , saith he , in this particular should be more moderate , if it be but because this article filiog was added to the creed by her self ; and it is hard to adde and anathematize too . the socinians are apt enough to say that many of the articles of our faith were framed at rome , and it seemes his grace would confirme them in that opinion . this was added also to his new book , as will appeare , if you compare the 25. page of the new book and the 6. of the old . it is the common practice of men addicted to the socinian way to speak very favourably in this point . these i call very suspitious passages , you must not expect demonstrations in this point , for i know the arch-bishop was too wise to speak plain , though some of these passages are plain enough . and i must professe that i doe not beleeve the arch-bishop ever intended to bring in all points of arminianisme , socinianisme , or popery , but to pick out such points as might stand with the great desig●e ; he was to humour all these three factions , that all three might joyn with him to suppresse calvinisme , and then admire him as the astolike patriarch , pope of this other world of britaine , for he would not have us ignorant that pope urbane the second even in a councel accounted his graces worthy predecessour saint anselme as his own compeere , ( or fellow-pope ) and said he was as the apostolike and patriarch of the other world ; so he then termed this iland . pag. 171. of the new book . but i beleeve his oecumenicall grace had such a thirst to be a governour of this little world , and yet such a liking to the universall grace of the arminians , and the right reason of the socinians , that no man that hath one dram of right reason can possibly free his grace from contradicting himselfe , and thwarting his own designe , by crying up some opinions which could not stand with his own principles in his old book , and his plot which now & then peeps out in his new , and yet he hath jumbled all together for no other reason that can be imagined , unlesse it were his master-plot to countenance other mens opinions that they might promote his designe , and for a copy of his countenance adore him as the primate and patriarch of the britaines , whose judgement is finall , and therefore there lies no appeale from him to rome or cracovia , no not to right reason assisted by universal grace ; it seemssuch slaves he had who to satisfy his ambition and their own , would deny both their principles and his , that the master-plot might thrive and prosper . for it is observable , that our english arminians , and socinians are nothing so true to their own principles , as the ringleaders of these factions are beyond the seas . his grace both in his old book and in his new , saith that reason and ordinary grace superadded by the help of tradition , doe sufficiently enlighten the soul to discern that the scriptures are the oracles of god ; here is the socinians sound , or right reason before the illumination of the spirit , but to please the arminians ; ordinary or universall grace comes in also , and the name of tradition to please the popish party ; and what all these are like to doe without the speciall grace of the holy spirit , i leave it to any protestant to judge . there is another rule which his grace holds fast in both his bookes , namely , that the churches declaration can bind us to peace and externall obedience , where there is not expresse letter of scripture and sense agreed on . what , sir , must there be no deduction , no consequences allowed ? must there be expresse letter of scripture ? there 's one socinian rule . secondly , when the letter of the text is expresse , must not the point contained in the text , and expressed in the letter , be accounted fundamentall , because the sense is not agreed upon , but the point called into question by some learned socinian , or bold arminian ? is the sense of that place of scripture which hath been received by so many fathers , councels , reformed churches , martyrs , not true , or the point not necessary , because it is now called into question by some wanton wits that can hardly agree upon any point ? must we then subscribe to that arminian and socinian principle , nullum dogma controversum est fundamentale ? when a point begins to be controverted shall it cease to be fundamentall ? by this meanes we may bring in an atheisticall libertinisme into the church ; we shall have no more articles of our faith , then the arminians , or socinians please to leave us . i beleeve we shall have a very short creed one of these dayes , if this rule be followed : for as fast as they please to question our articles we must part with them , especially if our great patriarch interpose his authority , his declaration must passe for the churches declaration ; if he say such a point is controverted and i command you silence , it is not fundamentall now , because controverted , then we must be silent and let the truth fall to the ground . this was the old muzle which was put upon the ministers mouthes to make them lie still , like dumbe dogs , whiles the theeves stole away what they pleased , this and that commandement , this and the other article of the christian faith : we must it seemes for peace sake , part with our religion , and disobey god that we may obey the church : sure he that hath the head of a scholar , and the heart of a christian , will scarce have any inward peace if he perform externall obedience in such a case . this may suffice for a taste of the arch-bishops divinity : nor the young students could not but take notice of such passages , and therefore whet their wits to maintain those opinions which his grace countenanced . there was a great scholar who asked one of the canterburian faction , what he thought of the primate of irelands treatise concerning christs incarnation , in which he demonstrates that the word was made flesh , and that therefore christ is god and man ; the canterburian answered , that indeed there was as much produced upon that argument as could be said upon it , but under correction ( saith he ) i conceive the primate hath not cleared the point which he undertook to prove . the men of this strain when they were at their height , began to vary their expressions , they called christ their great master , or our lord and master , at the highest , so that you could scarce tell by their prayers whether they did respect christ or their patrone most , for the chaplaines styled their patrone their very good lord and master . dr. taylour in his epistle dedicatory to the arch-bishop , before the sermon on the gun powder treason , seems to affect that expression of calling christ our great master ; the socinians will beare them company in such generall expressions , and some have thought of composing such a liturgy as might give no offence to arminians or socinians ; that would be an inoffensive liturgy indeed , and they may doe well to enlarge their charity , and make their liturgy inoffensive to the turkes and jewes as well as the socinians ; for any liturgy which will please one that is a thorow socinian , will please turkes , and jewes also , if it be but warily composed , and they will keep themselves in such generall expressions as some doe too much affect . but of all that i have met with , none comes neer mr webberly , a batchelour of divinity , and fellow of lincolne colledge , who hath translated a socinian book into english , for the benefit of this nation , and prepared it for the presse . now they think they may own the businesse , they dare appeare in their proper colours , and blaspheme christ in plaine english . but because some parts of socinianisme strike directly at the superstition of rome so highly extolled in our dayes , and at the pompe of the clergy , which must be maintained by the sword ( for what care they though england swimme in bloud , so they swimme in wealth and pleasure ? ) therefore mr. webberly tells us very honestly , that socinianisme was to be corrected and chastised with respect to the nature of our climate ; what need i adde more ? take all in a word . there are some mysterious parts of socinianisme that se●m rationall , these i think in good earnest , the men of this age have too much doted on . secondly , some parts of socinianisme they qualify and chastise a little , because there is a little too much quick-silver in them . thirdly , some parts they doe totally reject , because they thwart the maine designe . fourthly , some parts of socinianisme are instilled into the people , that they might be made a meer prey to their courts in times of peace , and to their army in times of warre . mr. webberly , for instance , may be so farre irrationall as to be of the councell of warre , which no strict socinian would allow ; but then mr. webberly would teach the people that they must not defend their possessions against invading enemies , by force of armes , because god hath not given his people any earthly possessions by covenant under the gospell , as he did under the law . surely they have heard of iulian who boxed the christians on one eare , and bid them turn the other eare that they might be boxed on both sides in obedience to their masters command . chap. v. shewes that the famous atheists ( anabaptists and sectaries ) so much complained of , have been raised , or encouraged by the doctrines and practises of the arminian , socinian , and popish party . there hath been a great complaint of late that men are turned atheists , and surely not without cause , but let us sadly inquire into the reason . the socinians doe deny christ to be god to the glory of god the father , as they use to say , and i beleeve god the father hath taken it so unkindly at their hands , that he hath given them over to that cursed atheisme which reignes in the heart of every man by nature , and is much strengthened by the profane wits of this latter age . i remember a story of reverend amphilochius who had been an importunate suter to theodosius the emperour , that the arians might not vent their blasphemies so freely against the son of god , because he was as god , equall to his father ; but he could not obtaine his request ; at last the good old man pitched upon this course , he comes to the palace of theodosius the great , and salutes the emperour with all due acknowledgements and accustomed reverence , but as for arcadius the son of theodosius , who was created co-emperour with his father , amphilochius passed him by without any respect or reverence at all , & at last very familiarly stroakes the young emperour upon the head , as if it had been some ordinary boy , and cryed , god save thee good child ; at which the emperour was extreamly enraged , and commanded them to turne amphilochius out of doores : but this reverend man replyed , i beseech your majesty to consider that if you are so much incensed against them who doe not honour your son as they honour your self , what wil god the father think of them who deny equall honour to iesus christ his son , who is equall to his father in nature and power ? the emperour who was wavering before , was much confirmed in his faith , by this seasonable admonition , and presently forbad the arians to dispute any more against the godhead of christ . you may read the story at large in sozomen's ecclesiasticall history . now can we imagine that god the father should take it lesse unkindly at the hands of the socinians and all who admire their acute blasphemies , that they deny jesus christ to be god ? and what punishment is fitter for such blasphemers , then that , rom. 1. professing themselves wise , they should become fooles , and denying the godhead of christ , and the holy ghost , they should be given over , not only to deny the power of godlinesse , but to deny that there is any god at all , because they did not like to retaine the knowledge of god ? 1. the scriptures doe clearly shew that god the father is no more god then jesus christ ; but ( say the socinians ) jesus christ is not god . who sees not what conclusion will follow ? ergo , if they said true , there would be no god at all . 2. the socinians doe not worship the same god with the protestants ; for we worship the trinity in unity , that is , all the three persons as one god , they say it is repugnant to common sense , to hold that the three persons are one and the same god , and therefore they may when they please leave it to common sense to determine whether there be any god at all . 3. the socinians proceed in a destructive way ; now destroy all religion , and atheisme will be embraced in stead of religion . mr. chillingworth hath cleared that point sufficiently , that popery leads men to flat atheisme : and it is plaine and evident that if papists must beleeve neither more or lesse then the pope thinkes fit , the pope may lead them all into atheisme when he pleases . and how pleasing atheisme hath been to some popes , i need not stand to declare , the papists themselves have spoke plaine enough . the papists have extolled the pope above all that is called god , and therefore the dullest papist that can but see that the pope is not god , will be ready to question whether there be any god at all . if the pope have more authority then god , then the conclusion will be easie : but according to the romanists the pope hath more authority then god , for the church is above the scripture , the pope above the church , he is the head of it : let papists though our enemies , frame the conclusion , they who maintaine the popes infallibility , and yet cannot but see how he takes upon him to correct gods own institutions , will conclude that it is possible for god to be deceived , and then i am sure he is no god : and whether the pope be god , let the papists judge . what practises there have been by the popish party for the promoting of the socinian heresies , i could shew at large if it were not too manifest to be proved . faustus socinus writ a most pestilent book de ss. scriptura authoritate , and this book he did privatly send about in writing to his friends ; dominicus lopez a jesuite it seemes was a great friend of his , and the book comming to his hand he thought fit to publish it for the common good . i need say nothing of petavius his notes in epiphan. haeres . 69. cardinall perron his reply to king james , lib. 3. his book of the eucharist . lib. 2. cap. 7. mr. fisher , or mr. floyd . how easily the racovian and romane antichrists would be reconciled , at least so far as to joyn against the calvinists , is evident to any understanding man . and mr. webberly in the appendix or sixth book of his translation , shews that the two great articles which offend the romanists and racovians are , 1. the totall exclusion of all kinde of good workes from justifying a man before god : and 2. the totall negation of mans freewill in doing good . they are enemies to the grace of god , in justifying sinners freely by faith alone in christ , and to the powerfull and efctuall grace of god in converting and sanctifying our souls . this is the grand quarrell , the socinians deny christ to be god , that so they may deny that the bloud of christ did fully satisfy for our sins : these errours strike directly at the covenant of grace , which is the foundation of all our comfort , and if once we undermine the foundation , and reject the principles of christianity , it is then an easie matter to be an atheist : for if the protestant religion be deserted , there is nothing in any other religion to keep a man back from being an atheist ; for popery , to speak strictly , is antichristianisme , and i have said enough of socinianisme ; iudaisme , and turcisme , are too neer of kin to socinianisme : let any man that doubts of this truth , read doctour calovius his decas dissertationum , vedelius de deo synagogae , and he may receive satisfaction without reading others . and for the arminian atheisme , i referre you to vedelius his book , de arcanis arminian . anabaptists are justly complained of , but from whence did they suck their poyson ( i mean the anabaptists of the last edition , ( the men so much complained of ) but from the arminians , socinians and papists ? from the arminians they received their doctrine about the fall and free-will of man ; are they not pure armininians in that great point of predestination ? they oppose the reformed churches in their doctrine about originall sin , the socinians have taught them to deny that infants are conceived and born in sin , and this is the true reason why they deny baptisme to infants , though i know they urge many other reasons to colour the businesse : no man need to wonder that baptisme of infants is neglected by all those who deny originall sinne , pelagius of old , about the yeare 420. said that it was a vaine thing to imagine , that the sinnes of infants were washed away by baptisme , because they have no sin at all , and therefore heaven was set open to them . the anabaptists in the conference at franckendale , maintained that infants were born without originall sinne , nay without the least spot of sinne , and therefore there was no need of their being washed in the laver of regeneration . the socinians tell us that originall sinne is a meere fable , a fancy . they that can goe no farther then english , may read a book of free-will , predestination , the first transgression ; subscribed in the epistle or preface after this manner , your brethren the anabaptists falsly so called . but i beleeve the reason why the anabaptists are complained of at this time , is because they are disobedient to magistrates ; for it is commonly said that they have lately taken up armes in rebellion against the king . i must confesse i have wondred often when i have heard of this dayly complaint , because i know that an anabaptist doth not think it lawfull to be a cutler , he thinks no sword ought to be made , because he conceives it unlawfull to use a sword . it is well known that the anabaptists goe to sea without any ordnance in their ships , that they travaile without any sword by their side : but if there be any fighting anabaptist in these days , i suppose the english socinians have taught the english anabaptists to deny those principles in practise , which they maintain in dispute . who are so active in all counsells of warre at oxford , as men that are shrewdly suspected for socinianisme ? if they deny this truth , their letters which are dayly intercepted will testify to their faces that they are not true to their own principles . yet i commend the chaplaines for their designe , they would fain seise upon mens goods without force or violence , and therefore they tell the people that they ought not now under the gospell to fight for the defence of their goods ; and if they could perswade the people to be anabaptists in this point , then these reverend troopers and meek men of warre , might seise upon all the peoples goods , without force of armes , and so be as true to their racovian principles , as the racovians themselves , they might robbe without weapons , a whole parish might be plundered by one sermon as well as by two troopes , if the people were but throughly instructed in ( or as we say , beaten to ) this conscientious slavery . all the spoile of a whole towne would lye no heavier upon the conscience of one of these chaplaines , then a reare egge upon his stomack , for they are not ashamed to affirme that god hath not given his people any earthly goods or possessions under the gospell , and therefore plundering is not robbing , they doe but take that from men which god never gave them mr. webberly in the third chapter of his treatise , tells us that god hath not given his people any earthly possessions now under the new testament , they must not regard earth but look after heaven ; this is they say the court-divinity ; but sure the rationall lords that have such vast possessions should not be much taken with these raptures ; if they be , it were good for the lords to turne chaplaines or step into a cloyster , and let their own chaplaines be lords in their roome . how the court-chaplaines will maintain this doctrine , and not be as anti-monarchicall as the very anabaptists , i professe i know not , they might have done well to have excepted the crown-lands ; they were wont to preach at the court , that the subjects have nothing of their own , but by this doctrine they will leave the king nothing of his owne ; sure they mean to have all to themselves . they must say that our king lives under the new testament , they will grant him to be a christian , and therefore he must not regard earthly possessions , &c. the king may perceive by this , what good friends he hath at court . nor doe they stick to question the authority as well as the possessions or revenues of kings . the anabaptists as disobedient to a parliament as to a king ; any person or court which hath power to fine or imprison , is by them denyed to be a godly person or a christian court . it was one of the seditious lawes enacted by that lawlesse faction at munster , magistratibus ac principibus nullus subjiciatur . the socinians and arminians think themselves as lawlesse . the * arminians say that they can willingly beare with one that conceives it unlawfull for a magistrate to punish any delinquent with capitall punishment , though he doe not embrace this opinion out of tendernesse of conscience , but only because he hath been trained up in it from his youth . you see the arminians give faire quarter to the papists and socinians ; if any man hath been nursed up in this opinion they will beare with him though his conscience be not tender . they excuse socinus in the same chapter , and say that many honest men were of this opinion before socinus was born . the arminians and socinians make a king of clouts , and put a wooden or painted sword into his hand to affright children , for they say that he must not draw bloud , no not in a legall way , for capitall offences . the * arminians foresaw this consequence , and are content to let it passe , they will not alter the confession of their faith to avoid this inconvenience . in the confession of our faith say they we use none but this generall expression , the power of the sword , and forbeare to mention any capitall punishment , because say they we doe not require all that embrace our confession to maintain that magistrates have power to inflict capitall punishments : whereby it appears that they doe plainly equivocate even in the confession of their faith , or rather the declaration of their opinion . non fidei nostrae confessionem , sed sententiae declarationem exhibemus , they use generall and slippery termes and teach all their sectaries ( the socinians and anabaptists need no teaching ) how to slip their necks out of so wide and loose a collar . reverend iunius shewes that the arminians teach their sectaries to blot the name of any prince or magistrate out of the number of christians and make him an infidell , if he punish the greatest offenders with death in a legall way . doe any reformed divines maintain this seditious tenent which will certainly ruine any state where it is generally received ? did melanchthon , bucer , calvin , beza , bullinger , ever preach such doctrine ? nay did they not constantly oppose the anabaptists in this very point ? nay was not the faction of anabaptists raised by the devil and fomented by rome , on purpose to hinder the reformation begun by those worthy reformers ? read that great counsellour conradus heresbachius his epistle to erasmus , and there you will see the devill raised them up in opposition to the reformers . i know one of late preached valiantly against blessed luther , and said that luthers book de libertate christiana gave the first occasion to the giddy anabaptists to be so extra vagant ; lambertus hortensius indeed hath a touch upon it , but he addes withall , that though thomas muntzer was well read in that book of luther , yet being an illiterate man he did not well understand , or else did wrest that book to his purpose ; now if the book was not well understood , and worse interpreted , sure the interpreter was in fault , for if he had no learning he might have had some ingenuity , or at least humility , and left the book to more learned readers , or candid expositours . thomas muntzerus saxo erat homo ut accepi illiteratus , sed ut apparebat , in hoc libello egregie exercita●us , & scripti interpres parum candidus , we must distinguish betweene the first tumults of anabaptisticall men , and deliberate anabaptisme . the first tumults were raised above an hundred yeares since , by illiterate dreamers , such as nicholas storke , thomas muncer , phifer ringus and the rest ; yet muncer at that time laid a faire foundation for servetus , socinus and the rest to build upon ; for he denyed the satisfaction of christ ; and what doctrine is fundamentall if the satisfaction of christ be not ? the socinians make it their grand designe to perswade men that jesus christ hath not truly and properly satisfied for our sinnes . the heresy of the anabaptists was not backed with any strength of argument , nor methodically digested till servetus and socinus set to work , i must then look upon servetus and * socinus as the maine pillars of deliberate and refined anabaptisme . luther must be excused , for he was not guilty at all , it was an occasion snatched and not given , snatched by muncer , not given by luther , when the anabaptists urged luthers authority ; for luther did utterly disavow any such sense , as they put upon his book , nay he abhorred their designe and opposed their faction even at their very first rise . when muncer was stepped aside to melhusium , luther wrote against him to the senate and desired them to beware of the woolf in a sheeps . skin ; this was very early , in the yeare 1524. and upon the lords day as bullinger assures me . in the yeare 1525. and the sixth of novemb. the anabaptists were so confident of their own strength , that they challenged any reformed minister to dispute with them ; but when they were ready to dispute , one of the anabaptists cryed out , sion sion , rejoyce o hierusalem , they were presently in such a tumult that they were forced to remove to another place ; yet the senate , zuinglius and other learned men were so patient as to argue with them three dayes together , and when the anabaptists saw themselves confuted by the evident demonstrations which zuinglius produced out of the word of god , one of them had a designe beyond all the rest , he said zuinglius was a learned man and could prove any thing , but saith he , o zuinglius i adjure thee by the living god to speak thy conscience , and tell the truth . i will quoth zuinglius , thou art a seditious clowne , since milder answers will not serve the turn , i speak plain and home . upon the 15. day of november , 1525. the senate made a decree against the anabaptists , and declared that zuinglius had convinced them , clearely confuted the anabaptists , and therefore they would proceed severely against all anabaptists . now about this time servetus the great grand-father of faustus socinus , as hath been shewen , began to perk up , for servetus was put to death in the yeare 1553. because he had been a blasphemer for thirty yeares together ; so it seemes he began to vent his blasphemies as soone as thomas muncer himselfe , about the yeare 1523. theodorus strackius ( being to set forth the history of the anabaptists ) slides on a sudden into a long story of servetus that monster of men , and enemy of god , nay ( as he saith ) of the whole true godhead in the sacred trinity ; this servetus that he might shew his good inclination towards the fanaticall sects of these times ( saith strackius ) hath endeavoured to make the baptisme of infants not neglected only , but abominated ; i dare not mention his other blasphemies , at which i think the very devills tremble . there are so many severall sects , both of socinians and anabaptists , who have runne away with their mouths full of anabaptisticall and socinian blasphemies , that we must let them all passe for sectaries of servetus and socinus , though some of them are farre more dangerous then others . the anabaptists maintaine some opinions which are as welcome to the papists and iesuited party in england , as other parts are to the socinians ; the anabaptists did dreame at first of an unwritten word , and a very subtile one too , such as the pope and jesuites dreame of , and such visions and revelations as the priests boast of . the designe of the anabaptists pleased the papists well , because they endeavoured to root out protestant princes and ministers , the papists knew full well that no church or state could stand without magistrates and ministers . there is one iohannes angelius who commends servetus and saith he spake nothing but what david george and such like saints have delivered ; this jesuited politician you see hath praises to spare for servetus , one of the most abominable horrible anabaptists of all others , as reverend bullinger observes lib. 2. contra anabaptistas . cap. 12. because there are 12. or 13. sects of anabaptists in his account , and servetus was one of the worst sort ; but he saith david george went farre beyond even servetus himselfe . the truth is , these two were guilty of sublimed anabaptisme , deadly socinianisme , though david george differed from soci●us in a point or two . now what good friends the iesuites are to the socinians hath been already shewen , what patrons the arminians are of anabaptisme the professours of leyden declare . this being premitted , let us sadly enquire whether our late writers doe encline to the anabaptists and socinians in the great point about the authority of princes and magistrates ; for i know it is commonly said that though the first reformers did oppose the anabaptists in this point , yet the men that seeme to be most zealous for a reformation in these unhappy dayes , are arrant anabaptists in this point . we live in an angry time , and men will speake passionately when they are provoked , and vexed , i will not therefore take upon me to justify the angry expressions of the most judicious writer , much lesse can i ever mention those bastard-pamphlets without indignation , which spring from a licentious and prostituted presse . let us single out some that have lately studied this weighty controversy , and it may be it will appear that they who are said to write against the king have setled & established his lawfull authority upon surer grounds and better principles then those very men who pretend to write for the king . every man is now accounted an anabaptist if he doe not maintain monarchy to be iure divino ; heare then what dr. ferne saith . we confesse that neither monarchy , nor aristocracy , or any other forme is iure divino . nay he saith that that power or sufficiency of authority to govern which is the ordinance of god , is to be found not only in monarchy , but in aristocracy , sect. 3. moreover if we consider the qualification of this governing power , and the manner ofexecuting it even according to monarchicall government . dr. ferne grants that it is the invention of man , and hath not so much as gods permissive approbation till that qualification or forme is orderly agreed upon by men ; in the selfe same sec. be pleased now to hear mr. burroughes : however princes may be exasperated against puritanicall preachers ( sai m. burroughes ) yet they are as much beholding to them as to any people in their kingdomes for bringing people out of conscience to obey authority ; you see here the people are pressed to obey the lawfull authority of the king out of conscience by such as are counted puritanicall preachers . in the answer to the observations printed at oxford by his majesties command , i find that monarchy is not much younger then man himselfe — that regall power sprang first from paternall , a regall power belonged to the pater-familias , pag. 3. as if he meant onely to conclude the subjection of the kings children and family : the patriarchs were patres patriae without a metaphor , they begat their own subjects . but how came divers families to be subjected to one king or common father ? why , reason ( saith he ) did direct the people to choose one common father . p. 6. monarchy then is grounded upon the peoples reason , and yet quite thorowout his book he talkes as if the people had no reason , for he tells them that there may be reasonable motives why a people should consent to slavery , as the turkes and french peasants have done : he teaches them how to perish with a great deale of discretion , or else how to be safe by the benefit of slavery . p. 10 , 11. the observatour saith that regall dignity was erected to preserve the commonalty ; it was so , saith the answerer , p. 8. and when routs became societies they placed an head over them to whom they paid the tribute of reverence for the benefit of protection : what if the people be not , protected must they pay no tribute ? god send his majesty better protectours then this champion . dr. fern discourses just as wisely when he propounds davids rewarding of false ziba as a pattern to our king , he would perswade the king to trust papists as false as ziba to seise upon the estates of his good subjects ; and bestow their estates upon arrant ziba's , men that abuse his majesty and seek their own ends , & when the innocency of the subject and treachery of these ziba's , papists or pickthankes is discovered , yet the king must not reverse his sentence pronounced in favour of the papists though to the ruine of good subjects and their posterity , all this divinity is closely involved by this conscientious doctour , in the 7. section . how farre the divines of this time differ from the doctrine of papists is clearly shewen by mr. burroughes , mr. bridge , and therefore it is strange the papists should be counted the better subjects . mr. burroughes doth acknowledge the kings supremacy , the king ( saith he ) is supreme but not absolute , because his authority is limited both by the law of god and of the land . for we may and ought ( saith doctour ferne ) to deny obedience to such commands of the prince as are unlawfull by the law of god , yea by the established lawes of the land ; for in these we have his will and consent given upon goood advice , and to obey him against the lawes , were to obey him against himselfe , his suddain will against his deliberate will , sect. 1. for instance , it is the kings deliberate wil that this parliament shall not be dissolved , or any forces levyed without consent of both houses of parliament , as appeares by two severall acts made this parliament . if then any take up armes either without consent of parliament , or on purpose to dissolve this present parliament , they doe certainly take up armes against the king himselfe , ( as dr. ferne says ) because against the deliberate will of the king . if any commissions then should be issued out in the kings name to any persons to encourage them to take up armes without the consent of the parliament , or against the parliament , such commissions must be interpreted to proceed from the kings suddaine will , which is not to be obeyed , saith dr. ferne , against the kings deliberate will . they are not the kings friends who advise him to send forth any illegallcommands . there is another answer to dr. ferne intitled a fuller answer , in which there is much law and logick ( viz that in a mixt monarchy there is a co-ordinate supremacy , and coordinata invicem supplent ) and a great many things which the common people understand not . this respondent saith ( as dr. fern doth ) that monarchy is not gods ordinance , but then he tells the people their duty in plaine english , namely , that it is gods ordinance that men should submit without resistance , to that kind of government which they have by consent established , and therefore they must submit to this coordinate supremacy , though it be the ordinance of man for the lords sake , as saint peter saith . pag. 17. here is submission out of conscience for the lords sake , to all legall supremacy ; what can be desired more , unlesse they would make the king an absolute monarch ? ( and so give him an absolute supremacy ) which the king himselfe doth utterly disclaime in his answer to the 19. propositions . the zealous divines of this very time doe abhorre the seditious practises and opinions of all anabaptists , who because the church had not christian kings at first , cry out with open mouth a that the church cannot be safe if there be any king or magistrate in the church ; nay they adde that if a king turn christian he must cease to be a king , because christianity it selfe is repugnant to magistracy , and no b magistrate ought to look after any thing that concernes religion . they maintain that christians ought not to have any judiciall tryalls before magistrates , that no christians ought to punish offendors with death or imprisonment , but with excommunication only . they would not have heretikes punished by the magistrate , c but every man should be left to his liberty to beleeve what he thinks fit , just as the arminians and socinians dreame . i would kings and princes did seriously consider that the d arminians have taught heretikes to rebell against any prince or magistrate who goes about to inflict punishment upon them in a legall way ; for , say they , if the magistrate goes about to punish an heretike because he thinks the heretike in an errour , the heretikes may all joyne together and rise up in armes against the magistrate because they conceive the magistrate to be in an errour ; for the heretikes have as much power to kill the magistrate , as the magistrate hath to execute such seditious heretikes , par omnium in omnes jus est , is not that pure anabaptisme in the highest ? nay they adde farther , that though the heretikes be seditious , reipub. turbones , if they be apostates , if they turne iewes and blaspheme christ , yet they would not have them punished by the magistrates : these arminian , socinian , anabaptisticall errours are justly abhorred by the divines of this very time . there is at this very day a great talke of tubbe-preachers ; if there be any such , the arminians and socinians must defend them as long as they keep in private , but if they preach false doctrine publikely , then indeed the arminians would have them grievously punished , the magistrate may if it be needfull ( say they ) make a whippe of cords and drive them out of the temple , as our saviour did the hucksters : thus they abuse our saviour and the magistrate both in a breath , they will not allow the magistrate to doe any more . they doe not think it necessary that ministers should expect a mission in the first constituting of a church , for then there can be no order , for order is not yet begun , nor must ministers expect a mission when a church is to be reformed , for then they say all order is quite fallen to the ground , and therefore the word may be lawfully preached by them that are not sent , so the arminians ( exam. cens. cap. 21. pag. 228. ) state the point . you see if there be any tubbe-preachers , now our church is but reforming , they doe punctually observe the arminians grave instructions . the arminians allow a liberty of prophecying , if any man shall perswade himselfe that he hath received some spirituall interpretations of the word by the inspiration , suggestion , assistance of the holy ghost , and any magistrate shall imprison this man , because the interpretation is contrary to the spirit of the reformed divines , the magistrate doth imprison the spirit and quench the spirit , and the church of rome may as well emprison any protestant because he brings an interpretation contrary to the spirit of their church , which is as the papists conceive infallibly guided by the spirit . here'snothing but qui sibi persuadet , a strong perswasion required to beare out this enthysiast , though he seemes to the reformed divines to preach nothing but his own brain-sick fancies , nay phrensies , sed hoc ipsum est spiritum extinguere , authoritatem sibi arrogare , spiritum qui cum spiritu nostro ( by our spirit they meane the spirit which enlightens the reformed divines ) non convenit , pro insanâ & corrupta mente , libidine contendendi , adeoque mali spiritus suggestione , censendi , eoque nomine vi armata eum opprimendi — colloca teipsum coram tribunali pontificio , reformationem dogmatum , & articulorum variorum urgentem & orantem ne spiritum tuum quem divinum esse credis extinguat ; quid respondebis si tibi reponat verba tua , an spiritus est quod cuique insana & corrupta mens , contendendi libido , adeoque malus spiritus suggerit ? exam. cens. cap. 24. pag. 276. unlesse we have that infallible spirit which the apostles had to discern spirits , the arminians tell us we must allow men liberty to prophesy contrary to the spirit of the reformed doctours , or else our censure of these enthysiasts will bee doubtfull , uncertain . finally ( for i am weary of this subject ) they will admit anabaptists to be true and lawfull pastours of christ . cap. 23. exam. cens. de baptismo . pag. 248. in fine . sure this is liberty enough , the socinians need not desire more , the arminians and socinians then must patronize these tubbe-preachers . in the next place there is a complaint of brownists , to which complaint i shall answer briefly , and yet fully . first , they are to be blamed who gave the first occasion of this rent : i know between 40. and 50. yeares agoe , there were some followers of browne , but in the latter end of king james his reigne , the number of brownists properly so called was much decreased , and it was a rare thing to meet with a brownist ; but when bishop land began to sit at stern , ( and so he did a while even in arch-bishop abbot his time ) then the number of brownists began to encrease ; the reason was , because ceremonies began to be urged upon the conscience with so much earnestnesse as if they had been necessary to salvation : and about 6. or 7. yeares since when the arch-bishop was in his ruffe , and his priests began to surrogate it , preaching for doctrines the commandements of men , and consequently worshipping god in vaine , math. 15. 9. men of tender consciences ( and those no weake ones neither ) began to feare , that they should transgresse the commandements of god , by observing traditions , math. 15. 3. and conceived it vain , to joyne with them in worship , who worshipped god in vain . many were prevailed with by this reason , but there were some of a moderate temper , who if they might have the liberty of their conscience , and not be forced to the use of any ceremonies , would , and did , communicate even in parish-churches : but the archbishop of canterbury began to lay on greater burdens ; crucifixes must be set up at the east-end , that was too plain ; next , the communion-table , to colour the design , or , at least , to add varnish to it , must be advanced into an altar , & men must by a tacit consent , ( as we were informed at the visitation of merton college ) expressesome outward reverence , by bowing towards the east , the altar , the crucifixe , choose which you please , all if you will ; but in no case must we be commanded to bow , & yet we must be censured as disobedient , if we refuse to bow . this was interpreted by rationall men an asking of our consent to bring in popery : it was now high time to make protestations that we would neither bow to east , nor hoast , nor altar , for if we held our peace we knew not what might come by tacite consent . we were sure that our actions would speak aloud , and how tacite soever our consent was , it would be known to god & our conscience . i will not take this faire hint to tunne into a long story of what censures were passed upon my self or others , for our protestation against this superstitious innovation , but sure i am that by degrees there were so many innovations both in point of doctrine , and externall worship , that the papists themselves thought those of greatest worth , learning and authority in england , knew not well what religion to be of , or where to fasten . the jesuite who wrote the directions to n. n. which mr. chillingworth endeavours to answer , began to triumph in our complyances with rome . heark what he saith . protestantisme waxeth weary of it selfe , the professours of it , they especially of greatest worth , learning and authority , love temper and moderation , and are at this time more unresolved where to fasten , then at the infancy of their church . their churches begin to look with a new face , their walls to speak a new language , their doctrines to be altered in many things , &c. mr. chillingworth is so vaine as to call this painting of churches the beauty of holinesse , sect. 22. but to proceed , if the guides of the church would not endure so much as a nominall inconformity with rome , if they and their adherents looked so like , and preached so like them , that the papists themselves took them for romane catholiques ; no marvaile if the poore people cryed out that england was turned babylon , and began to separate ; for that is very observable which judicious hooker delivers in his ecclesiasticall politie . the people ( saith he ) are not accustomed to trouble their wits with nice and subtile differences in the exercises of religion — and ( saith he ) in actions of this kinde , ( hee speakes of adoration of the crosse , it may well be applyed to adoration towards the east , hoast , altar , crucifixe ) we are more to respect what the greatest part of men is commonly prone to conceive , then what some few mens wits may devise in construction of their owne particular meanings . they then are to be blamed who invented a few cogging distinctions to juggle with god and their conscience , and thought to salve up all with some curious subtilties which the people understood not . if they that should be lights of the church gave no better light then an ignis fatuns , which doth seduce them into bogges and ditches , if they puzzeld the people and gave them good cause to doubt whether it was safe to communicate or no , must the people communicate when they are perplexed with such doubts that they cannot communicate in faith ? he that doubts is damned if he eat , rom. 14. 23. the poore people could not be resolved , and durst not be damned ; sure the archbishop was rather schismaticall , in imposing such burthens upon tender communicants , then the people in separating from externall communion . let mr. chillingworth be judge , sure he is no brownist ; neither is it alwayes of necessity schismaticall to separate from the externall communion of a church , though wanting nothing necessary . for if this church supposed to want nothing necessary , require me to professe against my conscience , that i beleeve some error , though never so small and innocent , which i doe not beleeve , and will not allow me her communion , but upon this condition ; in this case the church for requiring this condition is schismaticall , and not i for s●parating from the church . secondly , all separatists are not brownists ; it is evident from this very place of mr. chillingworth ; for a man may have just cause to separate from the externall a communion of a church , though he think that there are all things necessary to salvation in that church . but no brownist doth conceive that there are all things necessary to salvation in any of our parish churches . they deny that there is any true church or ministers of god to bee found in any parish of england ; or that all the parishes taken collectively can make one church of god ; they say our congregations and ministers are limbs of b antichrist , babylonians , idolaters ; this doctrine i have ever preached against , ( i preached against it even at westminster , where they say there are so many brownists ) and resolve to preach against it still . 3. there are some reverend and learned ministers in this kingdome , who are commonly called the independent ministers , and these are all put downe for brownists , if not anabaptists , in the oxford catalogue , though the arminians have no reason to censure any that goe from a congregation that is lesse pure , to one that is more pure . i will therefore briefely shew that these ministers are neither anabaptists nor brownists . they will not say the magistrate is an head of the church , but they say that every christian magistrate is an head in the church , which no anabaptist will say . they say that the prelates doe not hold from the head , as all officers of the church should doe , ephes. 4. 15 , 16. and yet they acknowledge that it is possible for a prelate , and the diocese under him to hold the head , as the phrase is , colos. 2. 19. and this no anabaptist or brownist will acknowledge . they will communicate even in a parish-assembly , where the minister and people generally desire and labour by all lawfull meanes to procure a reformation . they protest against brownisme , as a * bitter error , and full of cruelty ; what can be desired more , to cleare them from being brownists or anabaptists ? i heard the same man preach since with much fervency and earnestnesse of spirit against the brownists for this their error , and among other inconveniencies which arise therefrom , hee mentioned this , that upon the same ground and reason for which they chiefely make the churches in england no true churches , nor the ministers thereof , true ministers , they must make all those in scotland , france , and other reformed churches , ( whom yet they seeme to acknowledge ) to be no true churches ; and so no true churches to have beene in europe since the reformation but themselves , which were a horrid opinion to enter into a mans heart . 4. brownists doe not , that ever i could learne , differ from protestants , concerning civill government , and therfore i doe not know why men should cry out , that brownists are greater enemies to the state then papists themselves : we have not yet forgot the powder-treason , and we doe still groane under the irish rebellion . 5. if the brownists be as bad as the donatists of old , if they conceive that there is no true church but in parte brownistarum , as they conceived there was none but in parte donati : if they should deny the catholique church ( which they do not ) and refuse to communicate with any of the reformed churches , or with any independent congregation , because they will not communicate with any who are ready to embrace communion with any parish church , let their errour , schisme , pride , uncharitablenesse , cruelty , and bitternesse be aggravated to the highest , yet the papists have no reason to complaine of them ; for papists deny the catholike church as directly as the brownists can be thought to doe , they confine it to their owne party ; the socinians and arminians may hold their peace for shame , for they both tell us , that it is possible that christ may have no church at all , neither in this part nor that , hee may bee an head without a body , an husband without a spouse , a king without subjects , as hath beene shewen above , pag. 49. the socinians say that there is not as yet any triumphant church above , nor is it necessary there should bee any militant church here below . it was no errour in the donatists that they held it possible that the church might bee contracted from a larger extent to a lesser , ( as mr. chillingworth observes ) but their error was that they held it done de facto , when they had no just ground or reason to doe so ; chap. 3. p. 162. but the author of the tract concerning schisme doth quite outleape mr. chillingworth . it is ( saith he ) a thing indifferent , the church may be in any number more or lesse , it may be in any place , countrey or nation , it may be in all , and for ought i know it may be in none , pag. 7. sure the brownist is more moderate , he saith there must be a church . 6. but the great quarrell with the brownist is , that hee would have the common-prayer booke taken away ; to which i answer in a word , that they are not all brownists who desire to have that law abrogated , by which the common-prayer booke is established ; mr. chillingworth desires that there might be this triall made betweene us and the papists , that there might be some forme of worshipping god propounded which is wholly taken out of the scripture ; and herein saith he to the papists , if we refuse to joyne with you , then , and not till then , may you justly say we have utterly and absolutely abandoned your communion . answer to the preface . sect. 23. may not some that are not brownists say the same to us , we keepe our distance from you , meerely because your forme of worshipping god is not taken wholly out of scripture , though for the present then wee joyne not with you , yet doe not say ( till that be done ) that wee doe utterly and absolutely abandon your communion . the author of the tract of schisme would have such a forme of service , as donatists , arians , papists , all that call themselves christians , might joyne in ; p 9 , 10. you see he dislikes the common-prayer booke , and sure dislikes the best part of it , the creeds , he is farre worse then a brownist . be pleased to observe that liturgies were first composed to expell socinianisme , and now this author would have a liturgie composed to let in arianisme , or at least to humour the arians , and sooth them up in their heresie , as if the articles of our creed were but private fancies , and it concerned us more to please hereticks , then preserve our creed . but there is a learned man of a more moderate opinion , and sounder judgement then either of the former , though they bee both very learned men , it is dr. featley , be pleased to heare him speake . there is nothing ( saith he ) in the protestant liturgie or service which the romanists do , or by their owne rules can except at ; the confession , forme of absolution , prayers , hymnes , collects , &c. are either such as the papists themselves use , or at least such as they dislike not ; in his annotations on vertumnus romanus , p. 16 , 17. now this is the very reason the papists bragge so much , and why some that are not brownists take offence at our liturgy . and this learned doctor tels us , that all who love the truth in sincerity , should with bended knees humbly desire that his majesty , and the high court of parliament , would make some more certaine distinctive signe betweene papists and protestants , then monthly comming to church , and taking the oathes of allegiance and supremacy . now how this present liturgy which the papists like so well , can make any such distinction , let the prudent judge . i intend not to run out into the large question , about the necessity or antiquity of liturgies ; but let men that are so violent in this point consider ; 1. how corrupt those liturgies are which are voted for ancient . 2. how much bishop hall is forced to grant , when this question was agitated betweene him and the smectymn●ans . 3. to passe by what is said about the lawfulnesse of a set-forme , let them consider what arguments are produced against the imposition of a set-forme . 4. if it were granted that a set-forme may be imposed , yet those many cart-loads of arguments which are produced against this set-forme are considerable . 5. it is confessed , that a minister should be able to pray as well as preach , and should give and even devote himselfe to prayer , he should meditate and study how to pray . 6. it is granted on all sides that wee ought to pray according to the occasion , and how we should foresee all the wants and straits of a church , and compose a set-forme for them before-hand , it concernes them to declare . when k. iames was to advise prince henry how to pray , hee did not thinke it sufficient to leave him to the church-liturgy , or to any prayers composed by man ; the onely rule of prayer , saith he , is the lords prayer : he advised him to study the psalmes of david , because they being composed by a king , hee might collect prayers out of them most sutable to his wants , and so he should be enabled to pray according to the occasion ; he disswaded him from following the common ignorant sort , that prayes nothing but out of bookes , for that would breed an uncouth coldnesse in him towards god : hee bids him take heed that hee be not over-homely in his expressions , for that would breed a contempt of god : nay he counsels him farther , to pray as his heart moves him , pro re natâ , reade his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , pag 151. 152. let these things be well weighed and considered , and then our fierce men will not terme every man a brownist , who desires to have that law abrogated by which this common prayer booke is established and enjoyned . i need not adde what the arminians and socinians think of liturgies , onely observe , that though the arminians beyond sea were prevailed with to write something for the archbishops , bishops , archdeacons , &c. in england yet they write but faintly , exam. censurae . cap. 21. and they could not be prevailed with to write a word in defence of our liturgy , they will not admit , no not of the most received creeds ; there is ( they say ) too much majesty in them , they call the preface to athanasius his creed , whosoever will be saved must hold , &c. a proud preface , for this is ( say they ) to give divine authority to humane formes , and into the assembly of such bold men let not our soule ever enter : you see what they think of humane formes . exam. censurae praef. pag. 6. 7. and lastly , the brownists had beene in the right if the archbishop of canterbury could have compassed his designe , for his project was to root out all that would not comply , which if he had effected , he had made good the brownists opinion for them , for then there would have beene no true church of god in england indeed ; not a true governing church , for his government would have beene tyranicall , not a true practising church , the practises of his grace and his adherents are sufficiently knowne : nor a true teaching church , as shall evidently be demonstrated in the next chapter . chap. vi . the religion so violently contended for by the archbishop of canterbury and his adherents , is not the true pure protestant religion . i intend not to transcribe overmuch out of bishop mountague , shelford , pocklington , dr. potter , mr. chillingworth , dr. dowe , dr. heylin , &c. their books are commonly sold , and i have given a taste already in the third and fourth chapters of some of these authors ; ex ungue leonem , as they say ; there are a great many passages collected and published already by severall men , so that i am forestalled , and by some happily prevented ; there is a booke entituled ladensium {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} closely penned , and never answered , in which their heresies are filled up by dozens , there will come forth a booke very shortly , in which the designe of reconciling , or rather uniting rome and canterbury , ( for there was no great quarrell betweene them ) will be more fully discovered ; for these reasons i may well shorten my journey . let any man that desires satisfaction , but peruse those bookes which were printed in england betweene 1630. and 1639. and compare them with the harmony of confessions of the reformed churches , and then hee may easily judge . mr. chillingworth proves undeniably that the church of rome is not infallible , but to what end and purpose ? why , that rome and canterbury may shake hands , the pope may abate something in point of supremacy , his primacy being grounded upon his infallibility ; but if the pope , cardinals , &c. the archbishop of canterbury and his adherents were united , the people would be unwilling to part with their masse : why for that if they will but yeild thus farre , as to turne their masse into english , the good men are agreed ; for mr. chillingworth tels the papists , that no godly lay man ( that is , an ignorant papist that is well conceited of the masse ) who is verily perswaded that there is neither impiety nor superstition in the use of their latine service shall be damned as he hopes for being present at it ; excellent divinity ! a strong perswasion will turne superstition and impiety into godlinesse . yet he saith there is some danger as long as the service is in latine , because the want of that devotion which the frequent hearing the offices understood might happily beget in them , the want of that instruction and edification which it might afford them , may very probably hinder the salvation of many , which otherwise might have beene saved ; that is , might have beene saved if the service had beene in english ; this is plaine dealing , the men are likely to agree , the masse in english may beget such devotion , afford such instruction and edification , as is sufficient for salvation . can the papists desire fairer quarter , or a foller acknowledgement ? is not this doctrine sufficient to effect an accommodation betweene rome and canterbury . i dare say all the papists in england will fight for such a protestant religion . mr. chillingworth in his epistle dedicatory gives his majesty to understand , that the papists allow protestants as much charity as protestants allow them ; and therefore such protestants and true papists will easily be reconciled , or indeed are already reconciled . i cannot stand to reckon up mr. chillingworths principles , consider these that follow . 1. god is not offended with us for not doing what hee knowes we cannot doe . whiles we are unregenerate god knowes we cannot repent and beleeve ; is not god offended with us even then , for our impenitence and unbeleefe ? besides , he conceives that unaffected ignorance joyned with implicite faith and generall repentance is not damnable . 2. mr. chillingworth is verily perswaded that god will not impute errours to them as sinnes , who use such a measure of industry in finding truth , as humane prudence and ordinary discretion ( their abilities , and opportunities , their distractions and hinderances , and all other things considered ) shall advise them unto , in a matter of such consequence . sure god will judge men with more then ordinary discretion , and therefore though we may justifie our selves when our opinions and practises are scanned by humane prudence , yet god may justly condemne us for not attending upon him without distraction ; such loose principles as these will nurse men up in security and ignorance , or else betray them to indifferency in religions , to that * arminian libertinisme , which hath been so much admired of late dayes , and cryed up as the only way to maintain peace . for if a man poysoned with this principle be seduced by a papist , arminian , socinian , he need use but ordinary discretion , and therefore take but ordinary care to resist the seducer : alas his abilities are not great , his distractions not few , and his hinderances many ; besides if he have time to consider the arguments propounded , yet hee wants opportunity , and therefore all things considered he had as good yeeld as stand out , for it is in the eye of humane prudence , a matter of no great consequence : for mr. chillingworth saith a papist may be saved , especially if he have the masse in english , and socinians are a company of christians , which though they are erroneous in explicating mysteries and take too great a liberty in speculative matters , yet they explicate and maintaine the lawes of christ with lesse indulgence to the flesh then the papists . 3. mr. chillingworth thinkes it sufficient to beleeve all those bookes of scripture ( to be gods word ) of whose authority there was never any doubt made in the church : hee cannot in reason beleeve the * other bookes so undoubtedly as those books which were never questioned , and he hath the example of saints in heaven to justify or excuse his doubting , nay his denyall . sect. 38. there is no necessity of conforming our selves to the judgement of any church concerning the rest that were never questioned , for that also he urges the authority of some saints in heaven ; ancient fathers , whole churches by their difference about this point , shewed that they knew no necessity of conforming themselves herein to the judgement of any church . sect. 34. and yet of this controversy whether such or such bookes be canonicall , the church is to judge . sect. 35. and the churches testimony is , though no demonstrative enforcement , yet an highly probable inducement , and so a sufficient ground of faith . what kind of faith this is like to prove , i know not , which is grounded upon a probable testimony , to which no man need to subseribe or conform . 4. it is enough to beleeve by a kind of implicite faith , that the scripture is true in gods own sense and meaning , though you know not what god meant , if you use such industry as ordinary discretion shall advise for the knowing of gods meaning , of which i have said enough already ; this may suffice for a taste . dr. potter is very charitable to the papists , because they receive the apostles creed , but whether they receive it in the apostles sense , is the question . whether mr. rouse or dr. potter hath answered that subtile booke most like a protestant , let the learned judge . i have said enough of dr. potter already , i referre the reader to ladens . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . i am even ashamed to repeat what dr. pocklington hath printed in his sermon , sunday no sabbath , see the first edition p. 48. 50. we must have an altar with a crosse upon it , if we will beleeve dr. pocklington , altare christianum . cap. 21. pag. 143. we may comply with the jewes in phrase , and other respects . cap. 22. pag. 147. i hope he doth not mean in caspar barlaeus his sense , or as the socinians mean ; he hath a vain conceit that the christian church of the iewes had altars . i hope they did not bow all , to , or towards the altar when they met . act. 15. we must if we will beleeve this dr. agree with the iewes in externall rites & ceremonies , p. 147. give me leave to throw away this book ; and dr. kellet his tricenium . when the arch bishop of canterbury was to assigne what errours in doctrine might give just cause of separation , he would not adventure to set them down in particular , lest in these times of discord , he might be thought to open a doore for schisme ; he knew full well that some who were countenanced by him had brought in errours enough , which gáve just cause of separation . knot the jesuite spoke plaine english to mr. chillingworth , when he told him that the doctrine of the church of england began to be altered in many things , for which our progenitours forsooke the romane church . for example , it is said that the pope is not antichrist , prayer for the dead is allowed , limbus patrum , pictures ; it is maintained that the church hath authority in determining controversies of faith , and to interpret scripture , about free-will , predestination , universall grace ; that all our workes are not sinnes , merit of good workes inherent justice , faith alone doth not justify , traditions , commandements possible to be kept . your thirty nine articles are patient , nay ambitious of some sense in which they may seeme catholique . calvinisme is accounted heresy , and little lesse then treason . men in talke use willingly the once fearfull names of priests and altars . what saith mr. chillingworth to this bold charge ? why , some things he excuses , and grants the rest . as for the popes not being antichrist , the lawfulnesse of some kinde of prayers for the dead , the estate of the fathers soules before christs ascension , free-will , predestination , universall grace , the possibility of keeping gods commandements , and the use of pictures in the church ; these are not things fit to be stood upon , we must not break charity for such matters , these points have been anciently disputed amongst protestants , if you will beleeve an arch-priest brearley ; and so he leaves that point ; here is a faire compasse , a long rope for a papist , arminian , &c. to dance in . but mr. chillingworth saith the protestants have constantly maintained , and doe still maintain , that good workes are not properly meritorious , and that faith alone justifies ; but either this is false , or else men that are counted protestants have changed their religion . franciscus de sancta clara wil inform him of the extravagancies of some in these points , who passed for such protestants as england hath been guilty of entertaining of late yeares . i have heard it publikely maintained in oxford by mr. wethereld of queenes colledge , that bona opera sunt causae physicae vitae aeternae , he had said before that they were morall causes , by that he meant meritorious , but that expression would not content him . it is well known what dr. duncan maintained at cambridge ; what shelford printed there , what dr. dow and dr. heylin have since maintained , and to their power justifyed ; you may read their words at large in ladensium {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the fifth chapter . the arch-bishop of canterbury hath given us the reason why the jesuites refused to come to our churches , ( it seems he had invited them ) since they themselves acknowledge that there is no positive errour in our liturgy , and it is briefly this . because though our liturgy had in it nothing ill , yet it wanted a great deale of that which was good , and was in their service . i can now give at least a probable conjecture why his grace altered the service-book which he sent into scotland : why , surely to please the jesuites , for he put in something which the jesuites counted good , and so in his apprehension made up the defect . mr. newcomen in his learned sermon hath shewen at large how punctuall his grace was in observing the jesuites instructions for the alteration of our religion . how truth hath been sold at a low rate , by the highest priests , is clearely discovered by mr. hill in his accurate sermon . revend dr. hakewill hath set forth dr. heylin to the life , and therefore i will not presume to adde any thing to his happy observations . the ministers remonstrance will give sufficient light to this point , i hope it will be published ere long . there is a book which passeth from hand to hand as a pretious manuscript called romano-catholicus pacificus , in which there are many faire offers made for a reconciliation between rome and canterbury , the arch-bishop of canterbury shall enjoy the cyprian priviledge and be subject to no patriarch , of which you may read at large in the supplement of the canterburian selfe-conviction , a passage well worthy the serious consideration of all statesmen . i might make my book swell if i should but reckon up the tithe of bishop mountague his popish expressions , and therefore i leave men to peruse his writings , there are few points of popery which you may not find in his bookes or in his articles at visitation ; it seemes our guides were gone so farre that the papists thought they might accept of all propositions of accommodation which were tendered to them by our gentle reconcilers . dr. featley hath excellently discovered what a good opinion the romanists conceive of some who professe themselves members of the church of england ; protestants are now counted heretiques no longer , if you will speak properly and strictly , saith that popish priest , and therefore sure protestantisme is waxed weary of it selfe , as knot speaks ; you may well know what protestants this vertumnus meanes , such as have been cited in this sixth chapter : concerning the book called jesuitica negotiatio , the ministers have said enough already . i admire at the impudence of divers men who have thus freely expressed themselves for the encouragement of the arminian , socinian and popish party , and yet are not ashamed to say that they stand for the protestant religion . i have seen a letter under mr. chillingworths own hand in which he doth excite dr. sheldon of all-soules , and dean potter , &c. to stand in defiance of the parliament , and advises them to stir up the youth ( the young laddes of the university as he calls them ) to oppose the parliament ; now can i or any man beleeve that mr. chillingworth doth intend to maintaine calvinisme , i mean pure protestant religion ? i appeale to the conscience of* dr. sheldon whether he hath not reserved more charity for an infidel then a calvinist ? he hath expressed himselfe very slily in his sermons , and yet plainly enough to intelligent auditours , but i will take the counsell of his text , and judge nothing before the time . i remember his observations upon that text , good master what shall i doe that i may inherit eternall life ? it is not , saith he , what shall i beleeve , as the calvinists would have it , ( or to that effect ) but what shall i doe ? sure the good dr. forgot the jaylours question , what shall i doe to be saved ? and the apostles answer , beleeve , &c. is this the calvinisme he jerkes at ? knot i beleeve had some ground to say that the infection was so generall that it had overspread all soules . i would there had been no need of such discoveries , but since things are grown to this passe , it is folly to complement , we are compelled to speak plain english in sober sadnesse . if our faith will be lost except it be kept by a controversy , it is an act both of faith and love for orthodoxe men to undertake the controversy . dr. potter doth acknowledge the church of rome to be a member of the church universall , and saith the church of england hath a true and reall union still with that church in faith and charity : nay pag. 76. we doe not forsake the communion of the church of rome any more then we forsake the body of christ , whereof we acknowledge the church of rome a member though * corrupted . but it seems in 8. or 9. yeares dr. potter had altered his opinion , for in his sermon preached at the consecration of the bishop of carlslie , in the yeare 1628. i find these words ; [ i am confident were the fathers now alive they would all side with us in our necessary separation from the abominations , idolatry and tyranny of the papacy , with which no good christian can hold any union in faith , any communion in charity . ] p. 64 , 65. the learned and reverend bishop davenant did maintain that the church of rome was apostaticall in his sad determinations ; if it be apostatized from faith as bishop davenant saith , and hath no more charity then dean potter saith it hath , how can we ( especially since our separation from rome ) be said to have a true and reall union with it still in faith and charity ? it is in vaine for him now to distinguish between the church of rome , and the court of rome , though there was once ground for that distinction , for rome is all court now ; if he will have me use charrons similitude , the church is the apple , and the c●ur the worme , the worme hath eaten up the apple , the court hath devoured the church ; we distinguish between fundamentalls and superstructions , and some talke as if the papists were sound in fundamentalls , but the case is cleare that they have overthrown the old foundation , and all their superstructions are upon a new foundation , or upon no foundation at all . for if their churches authority be the foundation of all their faith , and their churches authority be built lastly and wholly upon prudentiall motives ; as mr. chillingworth shewes , cap. 2. pag. 64. sect. 35. then sure here is a new foundation , or else their church is a castle in the ayre , a church without foundations . i dare appeale to master chillingworth whether the papists doe not erre grossely ( and therefore fundamentally ) in those things which belong to the covenant between god and man in christ ? see whether my inference be not grounded on his assertion . pag. 17. the answer to the preface , sect. 26. dr. potter tells us * that their errours and practises for which they have been forsaken of protestants are not damnable in themselves to men who beleeve as they professe ; but the arch-bishop of canterbury is more orthodoxe , or else the man that gave him this note was more orthodoxe , ( for doubtlesse the materialls of that faire fabrick were brought in by men of different religions , the principles are so crosse ) he saith that errour in points not fundamentall may be damnable to some men , though they hold it not against their conscience . sect. 37. numb. 6. pag. 320. dr. potter and some others have a fancy of resting in the profession of such truths as all christians in the whole world agree upon . master chillingworth will put in the socinians for a company of christians ; i hope dr. potter will not joyn with him ; but the arch-bishop dislikes this plot , as it comes from a. c. or at least shewes the danger of it , and would be better advised in this point . he saith he doth not think it safest in a controverted point of faith to beleeve that only which the dissenting parties agree upon , or which the adverse party confesses ; the arch-bishop instances in the doctrine between the orthodoxe and the arian ; if that rule be true which was mentioned before , then saith he 't is safest for a christian to beleeve that christ is of like nature with god the father , and be free from beleefe , that he is consubstantiall with him , &c. his second instance is about the resurrection . his third about the unity of the godhead ; if we will rest in the acknowledgement of one god ( he meanes , and not confesse the trinity of persons in the unity of the godhead , for his grace hath not framed his argument right ) then iewes , turkes and socinians will be as good christians as we are . the fourth instance is about the verity of christs godhead . the arch-bishops relat. p. 309 , 310 , &c. you see whither this charitable principle would lead us , we must take in the socinian first , as a christian , and then we may turn turkes with credit . i will conclude all with a part of dr. potters prayer ; the lord take out of his church all dissention and discord , all heresies , and schismes , all abuses and false doctrines , all idolatry , superstition and tyranny , and unite all christians in one holy band of truth and peace , that so with one minde and one mouth we may all joyne in his service , and for ever glorify the holy name of the most holy and glorious trinity . amen . amen . amen . the printer to the reader . the author being called from london to a businesse of higher conc●rnment could not oversee the presse , but some few sheets being sent to him , he returned some brief corrections which he hath desired me to communicate that the reader might blot out those things which are redundant , and rectify such mistakes as alter the sense of the author . be pleased to take speciall notice of these that follow . s. g. errata . in pag. 2. lin. 6. r. he will not confesse that they pag. 3. l. 19. dele ( if smalcius be judge ) in pag. 3. l. 6. marg. dele [ sociniani ] in pag. 6. l. 18. r. [ with him ] but consider that samosatenus p. 10. l. 20. dele [ they ] p. 27. l. 7. r. but the cause of the quarrell is that the churches p. 28. l. penult . r. without the word . p. 33. l. ult. r. let them read my answer to mr. webberley . p. 37. l. 7. dele therefore . p. 38. l. 10. r. istis quos ignorare . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a32802e-190 vide annotat. casaub. in g. nys. epist. ad amb. & bas. pacem ecclesia , pacem christi amissā quaerere , & turbatā componere , & repertam tenere curavimus sed hujus ipsius fieri nos vel participes vel autores , nec tēporis nostri peccata me ruerunt — nec antichristi ministri sunt passi , qui pace sua , id est , impietatis sua unitato se jactant , agentes se non ut christi episcopos , sed antichristi sacerdotes . hilarius contra auxentium . volumus & nos pacem , sed pacem christi — pacē in qua non fit bellum involutū ; pacē , qua non ut adversartes subjictat , sed ut a mices jungat , hieronym . ep. ad th. contra errores ioh. hi●ros . see mr. gatak●rs defence of mr. wotte● . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. gr. na. zimz orat. 20. elcesaita fidem in persecutione negādam docebant & in corde servandam . aug. de hare sibus ad quod. vult . deū . euseb. de vita const. l. 1. c. 11. vide dinothuw● d● bell● ga●ico ; cundē de be●o belgico . dimetr . meteran . hist. belg. p●pellinier● . memoires de la ligue . insidi● sub pacis nomine latebant 1572. barth. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. at saptens quondam rite ho● pradixit homerus . exors ille , domus , pauperque extorris & exlex , quem bellum civile juvat , crudele , nefandum . aristop . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . vulpt●bus atque leves voltis confidere mergi ? {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} mergus , fulica , ardea , mihi gavia videtur esse ; a gull , or sea . goose , vide observ. flor. chr. in locum . nullâ id ratione queamus ante lup●s quàm connubio sibi junxerit agnam . at nunquā rectà efficias incedere cancrum , non facias unquam ut lavis sict asper echinus . petra romana est mola asinaria , demergatur sola in profundum maris , in collo nostro non suspendatur . barret . d● iur● regu . tacit. a● . l. 4. vibane the 2d . did account my worthy predecessour s. anselm his own compeer , and said he was the patriarch and apostolique of the other world . the archbishop his relat. p. 171. the like priviledge offered to this archbishop by the english fryar bar●●si●s ; see the large supplement of canterburies selfe-conviction pag. 20. what offers were made by signior co● , i leave to one more skillfull to demonstrate . notes for div a32802e-2100 scribant ● laute & accurate qui ad hoc munus ingenii fiductâ vel officii ratione ducuntur ; me verò sublevanda recordationu , vel potius oblivionu mea gratiâ , commoniterium mihimet parasse suffecerit . vinc. li●in . adv. har. a vide calovium consid. theol. socin. pag. 105. 106. & sequ. vide stegman photin . disp. 1 pag. 1. & 3. hebionei christun● tantummodo hominem dicunt . vti augustinus de haresibus . euseb. pamph . hist. lib. 3. cap. gr. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . lat. 24. epihanius hares . 30. ariani patrem & filium & spiritū sanctum nolunt esse uniui ejusdemque naturae at que substantiae , aut ut expressius dicatur , essentia . august . de haeresibus . ariani omnes dicti antiquitus era●t , licet sententiis inter se discordes , qui in pr●c●puum errotem cum ario conspirabant ; nempe filium dei patri consubstantialem esse negantes ●ti smiglecius probat . d bez● , prasatio prafixa explicat . val gentilis perfidi● & perjurii . sociniani cum aetionis filiū nō modo {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , sed etia {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} di●unt . stegman . phot. disp. 1. pag. 7 , 8. sociniani insuper filium de● post munds occasum prorsus non regnaturum cum ario s●mniant sociniani . vide calov . de di . stinct . theol. s●cin . a priscis haresibus . pag. 116. noc est ut photinianum nomen su●terfugiant cum in principalibus se c● photino convenir● fateantur . d stegman photin . disp. 1. pag 3. iacobus ad portum orthod fid defen. advers●● ostorradium . martin . thalyaus anatom . samosat . glossema samosateniorum est ejusdē●oloris cū turcismo ac iudaismo — cum turcis quidem plus habent affini tatu quàm cum iudae● — turcismus en●m ut ex alijs errorum cento nibus , sic ex samosatenia nismo a mahume te est conftatus . pauliani a paulo samosateno christū non semper suisse dicunt sed ej us initiū ex quo de ma. ria natus est asse verant , nec eum ali quid amplius quā hominem putant . ista haeresis aliquāao cujusdā artemonii fuit sed cum defecisset ●staurata est a paulo , & postea sic a photino confirmata &c. aug de hares . execrandus ille samosatenus ejus ecolesiae conspurcator in quâ primi sunt christiani nominati . d. beza ubi supra . august de hares . haresis samosaten ; postea sic a photino confirmata ut photiniani quàm p●ultani celebriús nuncupentur — philaster continuatim ponit ambos ( samosatenū scil. & photinum ) sub singulis & propriis numeris quasi haereses duas , cum dicat photinum in omnibus pauli secutum fuisse doctrinam . vide iacobum ad portū orthodox . fid. defens . stegman . disput 1. pag. 4. 7. 8. calovium considerat . theol. socin. preoemial . gloriantur sociniani selectes quasdam cōfessions sua vel directe vel oblique de deo & christo favisse , samosatenum photinum , baliardum , basilidianos , carpocrat , gnosticos , marcionites , montanistas , noctianos , arianos , berillum , eutych , donatum , helvidiū eunomiū , miletium , sabinum , praxeam , manichaum , sabellium , photinum , & ejusce furfuris perditissimos hareticos , vide caloviunt de d●uct , theol. socin. à priscis haresibus pag. 106. vide d. stegman disp. 1. pag. 4. learned mr. gataker his postscript to mr. wotto●s defence , pag. 40. 41. calov . considerat . theol. socinian . prooemial . p. 120. beza prafat. pra . fix . explicat . h●res . valent . gen● . calovins consid. theol. soc. prooe●ial . pag. 6. michael , servetus p●nas luens , anno 1553. nonnulli geneva iterum è favillis serveti flammas quasdam hareseos ipsius excitare , tum illis quoque inter alios favit lalius socinus . calov . decas dis. pag. 7. impictas val. gent. b●evi script● detecta per d. 1. calvinum vide valentint gent. pro. theses . confession● . libellum antid●torum . responsum d. calvini ad question . georg elandratae . eiusdem brev. admonit ad fratres polonas , nee non confirmat . istius admonit . simleri epistolam ministris in polonia & russia . theses 1. hyperii in acad marpurg assert . doct. cath. de trinitate per alexand. ale●●um theses d. beza in pra●ect de trinitate . b. a●etis histor. val. gent. vide beza pr●●●● . confessi● fidei edita in italica ecclesia genevae habetur in explicat . perfidia val. gentilis pag. 1. ibid. pag 3. vide explicat . prafidia valent . gentilis , p. 14 , 15 , 16. ubisupra pag. 17. epistola valentini gentilis ad senatū genevensem habetur in explicat . perfidia val. gent. p. 27. abjuratio val. gentilis ipsius manu sponte scripta , et ad senatum genevensem missa . vide explicat . perfidia val. gentilis p. 28. er●t in confinio pagus fargiarum ubi habitabat gribaldus — aderant ibidem alciatus — in praefecturâ gaiensi ditionis mag. dom. bernēsium aretius histor. val. gent. gratianopoli . lugduni . quid interea bonus ille hosius cardinalis cum suis catholieis ? nempe ridere suaviter nostros undique ad extinguēdum hoc incendtum accurrētes probrosis libellu lacessere , regiam denique majestatē de coercendis istis blasphemiis cogitantem arectis consiliis provirtbus avoeare ; as merito quidem : quorsu enim satanadversus seipsum depugnaret ? beza prafat. ubi supra . neglecta juramŭti religione ad errores abjuratos postlimini● redibat . aretii hist. val. gent. cap. 2. p 11. august . 1566 : rescript . senat. genev. habetur in explicat persidiae val , gent. p. 20. ortgo socinianisma a lalto fuit ratione inventiones , a fausto ratione dispositionis . eques polonus in vitâ f socini . dissortatio quam eques polonus f. socini ope●bus pramitti voluit . abraham calov . decas dissertat . i icet tiguri apud helvetios sedem fixisses , ad alias tamen europa regto●es non semelex ●urrebat . veruntamen ut unicuique sua constet laus — me & sententiam illam in iohannis evangel. verbis explicandis , & quae ad eam asserendam vel jam dixi vel posthac dicturus sū magna ▪ ex parte ex laelii socini senensis sermonibus dum adhuc viveret , & post ejus mortē ex aliquibus ipsius scriptis quae in manus meas non absque mirabili dei opera atque consilio pervonerun● & hausisse & desumpsisse non minus libenter quam ingenue fate● or . frag. 4. duorum s●ript . f. socini pag. 4. & 5. vide calovium de origine theol. soci . pag. 6 sect. 16. * haer●tici alogi sive alogiani dict● quia {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} à iohanne descriptum & proindeipsum etiam evangeliū , secundum iohanuē rejiciebant . vide aug. de hares . 30. vide petrum carolinum in explicat . doctr. de uno vere deo. p. 16. nec non eniedinū explic. loc. v. & n. t. pag. 136. viderem romani quidem antichristi regnū ab omnibus dirui atque vastari , idolorumque templ● everti , interim tamen christi regnum non resurgere , e●usque templum nedum à quoquam extrui , sed ne caementa quidem & lapides ad illud extruendū ab aliquo parari . socin. explicat . pri●n . ca. ioh. p. 2. notes for div a32802e-7810 vide libellum ministr. . sarmat . & transyl . alba iulia edit , de falsa et vera , &c. d. wigandi servetianismum . in brestensi synodo in sinibus lithuania . an. 1589. in synodo lublinensi . non exigua indiet facta est accesis● , pracipue inobilib●● & in aula educatis — ut & ● lunierum pastorum ordine , quippe qui propensiores in nova dogmata , n●c adeo in veritate confirmati fuerant , calov . de orig soc. pag. 70. d. calovde dist. theol. soc à theol. ss●i . pag. 73. notes for div a32802e-8320 h. grotit pietas , ad ord. . hollande . error christi essentiam & personam negaus fidem destruit , & christianismum tollit . d. stegm . photin p 6. vide smalci● contra nova monstra . deum invocamus tanquam omnium bonorum solam ac primariam causam , christum ver● tanquam secundariam causam a primaria illâ plane pendentem — à deo quacunque bona petimus à christe ea solum qua ad ecclesiam christi spectant : deus enim christo ea largiendi potestatē concessit , non alia , inquit socinus , disp. de adorat . christi cum chr , frank . vide d. stegman . photin . disp. 1. pag. 6. socinianismū barlaus pestem & ●verr●culū esse christiana fidei dudum cred●d●t , vianoque sternere ad {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ejus religionis quam precioso suo sāguine aspersit ater●us aterni dei silius . vindis . c. barlai pag. 8. ea quae negantur a socintanu ad duo capita revocari possunt , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} seu articulum de ss. trinitate , & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} seu articulum de humani geueru salute . vide cal●v . dist. th. socin , a priscis hares . p. 111. vide stegman . disput. 56. p. 656. a neque patres propterea recipiūt , quia cum scripturâ consentiunt ; sed scripturam ●o mode in intelligendā censen● quia patres ita ex plicarunt . ideoque pri●s de unanimi patrū conciliorūque consensu , quàm de vero scriptura sensu sunt solliciti . brev. disq p. 7. b malle se patribus istis , conciliisque adh●rere , quàm privatum , ubi v●cant , suum de scriptur● sequi iudicium . i● pag. 7. hoe aut●m ann●● est ecclesi● ejusque doctoribus contr●versias cum aliorū obligatione judicādi potestatem adscribere ? brev. disq. cap. 2. pag. 8 , 9. nimirum iudicem ipsi spiritū sanctū statnunt : saltem fine eo nullum cutquam de sacr● judicium concedere volunt . quo ipso rationis sanae judicium ante spiritus sancti illustrationem plane tollitur . disq br . cap. 30. pag. 9. brev. disq cap. 4. vera de judice sententia . itaque neg andum est nullum c●rto assequi verum . quare qui istis sive naturali ingenii b●nitate , sive experientiâ vel mediocriter instructus est , is & ●psas scripturas sacras esse cognoscet &c. brev. disq. p. 35. quid quod princip●orum ●storum ope etiam is qui s●cras literas vel legere non potest , vel nunquam vidit , vel exstare ●●scit , &c. lb. cap. 7. p. 35. reason is in some sort gods word saith mr. chillingworth . answer to the preface , p. 20. arch-bishop of cant. his relation . pag. — 150. the church of rome did promulgate an orthodoxe truth , which was not then catholickely admitted in the church , namely the procession of the holy ghost from the son : if she erred in this fact , confesse her error . the generall councell held at ariminum , did deny the sonnes equality with the father ; the councell at ephesus did confound the two natures in christ . vide calovium de consensu patrum ante concilium nicenum . sociniani trinitatem cerberum , christum spurium , incarnationē christi monstrum absurditatis , satisfactionem commentum appellitant . d. stegman . pag. 22. en christianos chillingworthianos . criminantur resurrectionem ejusdem carnis esse prorsus mahometanam & iudaicam , calov . dist. theol. soc. à pris . hares . p. 104. regem ' sine regn● , caput sine memoris , vitem sine ranis , christum sine ecclesiâ somniant : ●idei articulum de catholicâ ecclesia ●sque ad finem ●nundi evertunt . notes for div a32802e-11090 spreta haud exolesce● ejusmodi calumnia . sed agnita videbitur apud nimis malos , aut nimis credulos , aut minùs ami●os . vind. c. barlas p. 7. naturall reason ( saith mr. chilling . ) then built on principles common to all men is the last resolution unto which the churches authority is but the first inducement ; in the margin . pag. 65. mr. chill . counts himselfe no socinian because he holds supernaturall revelation requisite to help naturall reason . preface sect. 28. yet he saith scripture is not beleeved finally for it self . pag. 65. that a man may be saved who knowes not whether there be any scripture or no . pag. 66. it may be humane prudence and ordinary discretion did advise mr. chillingworth to use no more industry in finding out the truth ; or he hath not been at leisure because of some hindrances and● distraction ; and then he hopes that none of his errours will be imputed to him . p. 19. answer to the preface . i would willingly know whether d. potter doth not take in the socinians into his christian world . p. 255. why he makes the church of england to take part with the jesuites against piscator and calvin , & implies that calvinisme is , as the black-mouthed sorbonist called it , bestiarum religio . p. 256 , 257 , 258. edit. 2. mangones haresium sub praetextu moderatioris theologia ● n●stris ecclesiis verè reformat●s exierunt . ioh. peltius . remonstrantes aiunt sese cum omnibus aliis sectis , imoue socinianis exceptis fraternitatem posse colere , excepta reformata ecclesiâ . apolog. ad censur. prof. leid . arminian●s & socinianes in viginti & ultra articulis per vari●s paragraphos distinctis convenire probatumdedit 1. peltius . non n●gamus ( inquiunt remonstrātes ) esse nonnulla ad salutem creditu necessaria pracise , sed ea pauca esse arbitramur . et hic etiā ( inquiunt profess . leyd ) gentum & spiritū socinianum animadvertimus — paucissima ad sal●tem prorsus necessarta sunt ( inquit socinus ) nempe ut deus & iesus christus divino honore colatur , praesertim verò chartt as erga proximum exerceatur . quam fidē & charitatem putant in eo subsistere qui neget christum esse eund●m cum patre deum & spiritum sanctum esse personam , &c. vide pr●fess . leyd. censurā praefationu re monstr . prefix . confess . sect. 22. a caspar barlaeus iud●os deum abraham● colcre ( quāv● constet eos iesum christū blasphemare ) pios esse posse , deoque acceptos , itemque dei amicos secundum accuratioré theologiam dici posse statuit , uti vedellus de deo synagogae . dr po●ter recites some such passages p. 117. of his own book , but will not take any notice of acontius . dr. potter might have corrected these passages out of his own principles , because for want of clear revelation he frees the church before christ , and the disciples of christ from damnable errour though they beleeved not those things which he who should now deny were no christian , read from p. 245. to 250. of dr. potters book of charity , &c. see dr. page his answer to that treatise ; and a little box of antidotes against some infectious passages in a tract concerning schisme . sum●● religion is socinian● h●c es● , sub spe alterius vit● observare mandata dei , uti calovi●s consid. th so●in prooem p. 86. sufficit ut s●iamus quae reverae praecipiantur vel vetentur à deo , adeo ut si in reliquu error occurrat nemo ob eun dē calo excludatur . socin , epist. 2. ad dudithium . arch-bishops relatiion see pag. 309 , 310 , 311. the arch b●shops relation . pag. 171. the arch-bishop calls socinianisme an hor●id monster of al he●ies , pag. 310. talis non paucis declarantium esset theologia sociniana in pluribus articuli● , quam tamen hacten●● publiee el●gere non ausi funt propter scandalum , ide● ab ●is qua minus i●vtdtosa putarunt insidiose in incipientes , viam illā t●tissimam tentarunt . prefess . leyd. censur. praefat. rem . sect. 23. the old book . p. ●4 . new . 121. the old book . p. 9. the new . p. 31. ab iis quae minus invidiosa putarunt insidiose incip●entes viam illam suam tutissimā tentarūt , ultertus progressu●● si pro vot● succesiss●t — non dubiū est quin remonstr. . soc. & in unam & eandem sectam coaluerint , etsi non in omnibus alits plane conveniant — publice docent unūquemque in sua fide salvari posse , &c. profess . leyd. cens. prafat. sect. 23. notes for div a32802e-15560 the preface to the author , &c. sect. 7 , 8. 11. this is the mother , give her the childe , &c. c. 2. p. 50. the doctrine of indulgences takes away the fear of purgatory , the doctrine of putgatory , the fear of hell ; the love of god will not be kindled in the hearts of ignorāt mē by latine service , nor by the masse if it were in english : because some sins are made veniall , the people may well doubt whether there be any mortall ; because the pope hath struck out the second commandement , the people may think he hath authority to strike out the first . the foundation of all the papists faith , the churches authority , is built lastly and wholly upon prudentiall motives ; ac de atheis quidem non it a fisissem crediturus unquam nisi me tenellum adhue ipsorum agmina , summo discrimine salutu mea s●l●citavissent ante triginta annos , quum li●●ris humanioribus operam in gallia darem ● iunii sac . parallela praefat. libellum de ss. scriptura authoritate dominicus lopez societ . iesu anno 1588. hispali edidit d●calovius de orig. theol. soc. pag. 22. mr. chilling . answer to knots-directio●s to n. n. sect. 18. ideo di●unt re●ōstrantes se nolle hareses aut athelsmū introducere quia nō habent pro hare si id quod revera heresis & atheismus est , & abomns ecclesia qua deum in tribus personis adorat pro heresi & atheismo habetur . uedel . de arean . arminianismi lib. 1. cap 1 lib. 2 c. 10. pag. 86 , 87. vide brochmand . de peccato . c 6. 9. 1. pelagio auxiliares m●nus prabe●t anabaptistae &c. colloqu . frank●a●t . 4 p. 230 , 231. peccatum morte christi it a expiatū & ablatum esse ut infantes naseantur omnis lab●● expertes , ac eapr●pter lavacro regeneration●● nonindigeant . smalcius disp. 2. contr. francium peccatum originis commentum est & fabula . uide conrad . heresb . de factione monast. theod. strack . hist. anabapt . pag 56. * si qui adeo tenera , aut sic à teneru imbutae conscientiae sinc ut credant christian● nulli ne quidem magistratum gerenti licere sanguinem fundere , aut capital●bus suppliciis in sontes animadvertere , remonstiantes eos libenter tolerare paratisunt . exam. cens. cap. 12 pag. 141. * defensio contra injustam vim qu● sine potestate effundendi s●ngu●nem est , non est defensio , sed defensionis larva terrend●s pueris . rem . ubi supra . nam vox gladii quemlibet defensionis modum , etiam quae sine sanguine fi● , significare potest . ibid. accedit quod fie●● non possit ut infirmi isti in quorum gratiā confessi●lus●t homonymtis magistratus , & justos magistratus tolerēt , cū expungant magistratū v●●d●eantē justū ( ex officio nomine d●●●capitali supplicto impiorum ex numer● christia norum , & annumerent infidelibus & homic●dis . isac . iun. exam. apol. r●monstrant . cap. 12. p. 311. satan ejusmodi pestes illum in finem exctavit , ne scil. r●formatio orbis christiani in doctrin● & moribus jam a multo tempore a piis majoribus nostris desiderata , & à deo ter opt. max. tandem per lutherum , zuing. melan bucer . aliosque dei viros suscepta perficeretur . arg. epist. heresbach conr●dus heresbachtus principum iulia cliviae montium &c. institutor & consiliarius qu● notatu digna inter obsidendum occurrebant probe consignavit , utroque insuper principe ju bente retulit , teste theod strackeo . docebat muncerus falsum esse christū satisfecisse pro no bis , quicquid tandē molles isti scribae dicant . h bullinger adversus anabaptistas . lib. 1 p. 2. * socini defens tract de ecclesia sub nomine nicolaidu : omnes qui anabaptista vocantur qui in polonia degunt , — belgio , italia & c — ideoque fraternitatem ●●m omnibus illis ( se . anabaptistis ) inire satagun● ( nempe socini asseclae ) & quo minus res succedat hactenus per eos nullo medo stat sed per illos penes quos ecclesiarum evangelicarum regimen est & gubernatio pag. 62. vide profess . leydens . censuram in confession●m remonstrantium . censur. praesationis . sect. 24. lutherus datis ad senatum melhusanum literis monebat lupum hunc perniciosissimum diligentissime cavendum esse . bullinger adversus anabaptist . lib. 1 ca. 1. anno 1525. in curia tigurina . cyprian and the bishops of ●arthage councell , are cited by anabaptists , but they were not pertinacious in their errour , as the anabaptists now , the arians and donatists of old . there is no command for rebaptization in scripture , nay not so much as example for it , as the a●●baptists did themselves confesse , when they saw that the place , act. 19. 5. made nothing for them , see the conference at frankendale , act. 36. art . 12. vide edictum amplissimi senatus urbis tigurina . bullinger adv. anabap. lib. 1. cap. 5. singuli anabaptista sufficienter nemine impediente & absquejurgiis sententiam suam exposuerunt denuo tamen firmissimis testimoniis sacrarum literarum declaratum est zuinglium cum suis sectatoribus anabaptistas vicisse . serv●tus vetus ille sacrae triadis , id est omnis vere deitatis hostis , adeoque mōs●rū — ne à fanaticis nostroum tē porum sectis abhorrere videretur , baptismum infantium quoque horrendis mod●s flagellavit & abominabilem reddere conatus fuit . strack epist. nuncupat . reliquos articulos muncer● urgebant de verbo dei subtili non script● , de vi●ionibus & reve ●ationibus , &c. bullinger . adversus anabap. lib. 1. cap. 4. the papists allow a divorce & the change of an hereticall wife as well as the anabaptists . iohan. angelius werd in synopsil bodini de repub. nihil a davide georg●o & tal●bus optim●s sanctorum alienum loquutus . abominandes omnes anabaptistas superat blasphemus ille david georgius . bulling adversus ana●ap . lib. 2. c. 14. vide consuram professorum leydensium in confess . remo●strantium , & censur. prafat. remonstr. . in arca a●minianorum ut in arca n●a omnium sp●●ierum animalia , quamus is diverse utentia pabulo , conservantur — politic● stratagemate libertinis omnibus , anataptist● etiam professis , aditum prabent , ut utano sibt parent ad eos opprimendos , quos vident suis conatibus obstare . cens. pr●fat . sect. 23 in synodo sua non obstante confessione sus pad●baptismum non esse creditu necessartum statuunt , nec ministros ( anabapt. ) e● nomine dimovenaos . cens pag. 305 de coena domini error et pontif & luth. rejictunt , non anabaptistarum & soci●ianorum . censur. in cap 23. confess . pag 310. personall defence is lawfull against the suddaine and illegall assaults of messengers sent from the prince , nay if the king himselfe strike at any one he may ward the kings blowes , hold his hands or the like . dr. ferne sect. 2. he doth not condemne the people for hindring the execution of a particular , passionate unlawfull command of the king by a loving violence and importunity . sect. 2. see the book entitled scripture reason , &c. the text rom. 13. doth secure a just ruling prince from all resistance . pag● . magistrates must be submitted to by vertue of gods soveraignty . damnation belongs to obstinate resisters of humane laws which are not opposite to gods law . p. 5. 7. mr. burroughes his sermon of the 1. of hoasts . pag. 45. scripture and reason the book set forth by divers ministers . the conscience is bound to obey the lawfull commands of magistrates , gods wrath is upon the conscience of them that disobey . p. 8. magistr●tes are to be maintained upon the publike stock . p. 8. read pag. 12 , 13. and judge whether these divines doe not plead the kings cause better then dr. ferne ; they say that the very houses of parliament may not resist the authority of the king commanding according to law . pag. 23. read the ministers epistle to the reader , and their answer to the 7. section of dr. ferne . the papists say that although kings doe governe by the lawes of their kingdome , yet because they are against the catholique religion , subjects may rise up against their king and kill him , this doctrine of theirs we abhorre . mr. burroughes sermon of the ● . of hoasts . p. 41. see mr. bridge his answer to dr. fern . the papists doe not only hold it lawfull to depose , & thus to depose their prince , but to kill him also , yea that a private man invested with the popes authority may do thus , all which we abhorre . sect. 5. p. 32. papists owe subjection to a forraine state , crosse centered to this of his majesties , in its interest of state , and meritoriously malitious by its very articles of faith . the fuller answer to dr ferne . p. 23. the name king doth signifie a person invested with different power according to the variety of lawes in seveverall nations . see an answer to the observations printed at oxford by his majesties command . p. 6. what the lawes of the kingdome and priviledges of parliament are , the lawyers books dayly published declare . nemo potest mutare consilium suum in altertus injuriam . there would be no end if the king should undoe what he hath done — there can be no appeale from himselfe to himselfe — he is not to passe sentence in a private but in a publique and judiciall way . answer to the observations , pag. 22. set forth by his majesties command . potestas {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} est {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} by law the king cannot , will not refuse to hearken to his great councell — answer to the observation pag. 28. and pag. 37. he saith that by the happy temper of our government , monarchy is so wisely ballanced , that as we are not exposed to the dangers which attend the rule of the many , so we may avoid the inconveniences which might probably flow from the atbitrary power of one . the same authour doth readily grant that parliaments are good helpes in government . p. 13. ergo they are somewhat more then counsellours . a quemadmodum anabaptistae opinantur quod nullus magistratus in ecclesia esse possit . bulling adv. anabapt. lib. 5. p. 157. see scripture and reason set forth by divers learned ministers . b vide bulling lib. 5. cap. 2. cap. 2. magistratum non posse neque debere curare res religionis . c vide eundem cap. 4 , 5. ejusdem libri . contendunt a●abaptista in ecclesiâ unicuique libe rum esse debero ut agat & credat quod ipsi visum fuerit , ubi supra . cap. 7. d nulla carnalis coercitio nulla poena err●ntibus constituta à deo est — omnes in seipsum armat qui in alios quos errare credit armatur . par omnium in omnes ius est . qui sibi jus tribuit coercendi alio● , idem aliis in seipsum idem justus concedat necesse est . exam. cens. cap. 24. pag. 259. lex ista de apost●tis à christianisnio non agi● nedum de apostatis ad iudaismum , & c — religionem suam liberam christus esse voluit ; qui ab ea deficiant , suo periculo & damno deficiunt . ex censur● cap. 24. p. 264. tub-preachers . nihil tamen ali●d colligetur quam ejectionem hareticorum ex publicis templis ad magistratum pertinētibus licite à magistratu fieri posse , & quidem si necesse sit flagelloè funiculis ei fini facto , ulterius aut plus concludere nemo jure potest . at hoc jus magistratui plenâ manu tribuunt remonstrantes ; hac ergo in parte imitetur magistratus christum . exam. cens. cap. 24. pag. 269. at in p●imá ecclesia institutions cū ordo non est , au● in ejus restitutione cum ordo collapsus est , missionem necessariam esse negant ( remonst . ) proinde cam de essentia muneris ecclesiastici , quod in verbi legitimâ praedicatione consistit , non esse habendam . ex. cen. c. 21. p. 228 aut libertas hac communis esse debet & eo usque extendi quo eam quisque sibi concedi amat , aut vis inferenda aliorum conscientiis exam. cens. c. 24. p 277. remonstrantes causam nullam esse vident cur sententia eorum qu● padobaptismum necessario in ecclesia christi necessitate seu pracepti seu medii retinendum aut usurpandū esse non arbitrantur , ut entolerabilis in ecclesia censenda sit , a● proinde cur pastores isti qui eum p●r conscientiam usurpare non audent — proveris a● degitimis p●storibus christi habendi non sint ? brownists . where the eause of schisme is necessary , there not he that separates but he that is the cause of separation is the schismatique . tract concerning schisme . pag. 4. see mr. chilling . preface , sect. 20. hookers ecclesiast . polit l. 5 sect. 65. mr chill . answer to the preface . p. 16. sect. 22. there cannot be any schisme in leaving communion with any church , unlesse we are obliged to continue in it ; man cannot be obliged by man , but to what either formally or vertually he is obliged by god . was it not lawfull for judah to reforme her selfe whē israel would not joyn ? sure it was or else the prophet deceives me ; that sayes expresly , though israel transgresse , yet let not judah sinne . the archb. of cant. his relation . pag. 149. see mr. chillingworths preface , sect. 44. answer to the 2. motive . there may bee just cause to depart from a particular church in some doct. in s and , practises , though that church want nothing necessary to salva●ion . dr. petter . 2. edit. sect. 3. p. 75. there may be a necessary separation , which yet incurres not the blame of schism : the archb. of canterbury his relation . p. 133. in margine . a nor can you say that israel from the t●me of separation was not a church . see the archb. of cant. relat. pag. 149. b see the defēce of the churches and ministery of england by mr. iacob ag●inst mr. iohnson ; the publishers epistle to the reader prefixed before the booke . non enim si ab hisce coetibus ad alios forte discedat , protinus eos quos deserit contemnit aut à spe salutu exclusos judicat , sed tantummodo ab impurioribus ad puriores se confert , ut veritatem omnem saluti nostrae aliquatenus servientem sibi cura & cordi esse ostendat , & deo ac iesu christo suo conscientiam suam probet , say the arminians in their preface to their confession . * see mr. thomas goodwin his fast sermon preached at westminster . see mr. burroughs his s●rmon of the l. of hoasts . p. 46. the iesuits have ●eene the authors and instruments of all tu●●ults , seditions , &c. as dr. potter shewes , want of charity , &c. sect. 1. pag. 9. the present church of rome perswades men they were as good for any hope of salvation they have not to be christians , as not to bee roman catholiques — be absolutely out of the churches communion , as be out of her communion — whether shee bee not guilty of the same crime with the donatists , and those zelots of the mosaicall law , let reasonable men judge . mr. chillingworth . c. 3. sect. 64. see dr. potter sect. 4. st. augustine and optatus did acknowledge the donatists to bee their brethren , & their baptisme to be true baptisme , vide aug in psal. 32. con 2. epist. 166. et contra donat ●post coll. cap. ult. optat. l. 1. aug. contra crese . lib. 4. cap. 4. de contra donat. lib. 1. c. 10 , 11. dr. potter doth confesse this truth . sect. 4. p. 107 , 108 , 109. the first edition . mr. chillingw . desires that nothing else should be required of any man to make him capable of the churches communion , then that he beleeve the scripture , and that only ; and endeavour to beleeve it in the true sense . his preface to the author , &c. answer to the last motive . ecclesiam nostram in omnibus audiendam esse cōsequttur duo ● us modu , tum quâ mutaverunt pleraque in divinis officiis , tum quâ multa retinuerunt : nam in altero se ad antichristum pertinere declara●unt ; in altero nos esse populum dei , & se esse simias nostras confessi sunt . brist . mot tom. 2. mot. 23. p 242. & seq. see bp. mortons appeale . troubles of frankford . see dr featleys advertisement to the reader , prefixed before ver●●m●us romanus . quare nil dubitamus profiteri athanasium limitem jur● huj us pratergressum esse , quando symbolo suo super●am istam pr●sationē prascripsit . notes for div a32802e-22730 the canterburians selfe-conviction shewes ; 1. their avowed armini●nisme . 2. their affection to the pope , and popery in the grosse , cap. 3. 3. the canterburians joyn with rome in her grossest 1. dolatries , cap. 4. 4. their embracing of popish heresies and grossest errors , cap. 5. 5. their superstitions , cap. 6. 6. the canterburians embrace the masse it self , cap. 7. 7. their maxims of tyranny , cap. 8. see the third edition of this canterb. self-conviction , with the large supplement which containes sundry very materiall passages . mr. chillingworths answer to the preface of charity maintained , which is as it were a second preface , for it followes the preface joyned with an answer to the direction to n. n. p. 9. sect. 7. the answer to the preface p. 19. in the same freface . the second preface . p. 19. * vide vedelium de arc●nu arminianismi : the foure professours of leyden in their approbation of that book declare them to be willfully blind who do not see that it was the scope of the arminians to introduce libertinisme . vtnemo deinceps , quinon sponte cacutire velit , de corum ad libertinismi introductionem scopo dubitare possit approbatio facultatu theologica leydensis . mr. chilling first preface sect. 29. cap. 2 pag 64. * the book of esther , job , ecclesiastes , the epistle of james and jude , the second of peter , the third of john , the epistle to the hebrews , the book of the revelation . we live in a questioning age : & no man knows how soon all the rest may be questioned . you may read more of mr. chillingworths principles , in a book entitled christianity maintained : the passage about henry the 8 , &c. is too famous to be mentioned . nos in diem vivi● mus ; quodcunque nostros animos probabilitate percussit , illud dicimus . it aque soli sumusliberi hoc est sceptici , vide ciceron. tusc. quast . lib. 5. answer to the preface . sect. 26. the arch-bishop himselfe is more sound . a church may hold the fundamentall point literally — yet erre damnably in the exposition of it : and this is the church of romes case — it hath in the exposition both of creeds & councels quite changed and lost the sense & meaning of some of them . the arch bishops relat. pag. 320. vide vedelium de deo synagoga . dr. kellet his tricenium . the laick must trust in his priest , the clergyman in his church . p. 630. the ●u●harist to be adored . p. 637. and received with our hands framed like a crosse . 655. altars adored . p. — 644. the arch bishop of ca●t . his relat. pag. 147. this is the protestant religion which the papists fight for , in thes fighting dayes . behold the protestant religion which the armiminians maintain . mr. chillingworth might have questioned the salvation of the iesuites as well as of the dominicans , ans. to the preface . pag. 20. first preface with an answer to the directions to n. n. sect. 26. mr. wethereld his sermon at saint maries . the arch-bishop of canterbury his relat. sect. 35. punct. . 5. p. 307. a probable conjecture of his graces reason why he altered the service-book . the difference between the scotch li●u●gy and the english is exactly set down in the canterburians selfe conviction p. 97. to 113. see m. newcomen his sermon preached on the fifth of novemb. the large supplement of the canterburian selfe-conviction pag. 19 , 20. bishop mountagu● saith that the ●igne of the crosse is the instrument of divine power and sufficient to drive away devills , it is to be made in the breast or forehead , &c. orig. eccles. tom. prioris parte poster ' pag. 80. scripture and reason , &c. set forth by divers ; ministers . the book called iesuitica negotiatio gave iesuited persons leave to professe the protestant religion , to keep any office , to passe sentence of death upon any person according to his office , so he was as favourable as possible , and gave timely intelligence of any severe sentence . pag. 74. just like the iesuise dr potter speaks of , who hoped well of honest pagans , & rashly dāned the best part of christians . sect. 2. p. 45. i say nothing of dr. sheldon his latine sermon in which he did highly advance the power of the priest . dr potter 2 edit. sect. 3. pag. 68. * impuritas non in dogmatibus fidei reperitur , sed vel in conclusionibus minus certis , vel in ritibus ; alioqui si impuritas ipsum cor & medullam occupet , actum esse de tali ecclesiâ omnes orthodo ●i censent . profess . leyd. censur. praefat. remonst praefix confess . sect. 23. that proud and curst dame of rome , &c. saith dr. potter p. 11. she doth poyson her own children , gives them serpents instead of fishes . p. 14. their charity is contrary to the true nature of charity . p 16 they have more charity for a iew and a turk then a calvinist . p. 17. we are persecuted with fire & sword and cursed into eternall fire by the romane charity , as dr. potter saith . p. 13 * read the cēsure of reverend dr. twisse upon this passage of dr. potter in his treatise of the morality of the fourth commandement . pag. 34. damnable i● themselves is in both editio●s , only corrected in the errata of the second edition , damnable in their issue . d. twisse gives the reason . see dr potter 2d . edition p. 254 , 255. we shall find that in those propositions which without al controversy are universally received in the whole christian world , so much truth is contained as being joyned with holy obedience may be sufficient to bring a manunto everlasting salvation . p. 255. the arminians say no man is an herelike who denies a point which is , or may be controverted , and so they may deny the whole creed . de harcticu quaritur , non qut ea qu● in scrip turis aperte decis● sunt convellere audent , sed qui e● qu● controversa sunt , aut controverti pessunt in dubium vo● cant exam. cens. cap. 24. p. 276. the arch-bishop of cant. his relat. pag. 309 , 310. dr. potter his prayer . a discouery of the errors of the english anabaptists as also an admonition to all such as are led by the like spirit of error. wherein is set downe all their seuerall and maine points of error, which they hold. with a full answer to euery one of them seuerally, wherein the truth is manifested. by edmond iessop who sometime walked in the said errors with them. etherington, john, fl. 1641-1645. 1623 approx. 255 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 57 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a04400 stc 14520 estc s107746 99843442 99843442 8177 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a04400) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 8177) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 743:06) a discouery of the errors of the english anabaptists as also an admonition to all such as are led by the like spirit of error. wherein is set downe all their seuerall and maine points of error, which they hold. with a full answer to euery one of them seuerally, wherein the truth is manifested. by edmond iessop who sometime walked in the said errors with them. etherington, john, fl. 1641-1645. jessop, edmond, attributed name. [12], 103, [1] p. printed by w. iones for robert bird, and are to be sold at his shop in cheapside at the signe of the bible, london : 1623. not in fact by edmond jessop, but by john etherington. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anabaptists -england -controversial literature. 2006-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-11 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-12 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2006-12 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a discovery of the errors of the english anabaptists . as also an admonition to all such as are led by the like spirit of error . wherein is set downe all their seuerall and maine points of error , which they hold . with a full answer to euery one of them seuerally , wherein the truth is manifested . by edmond lessop who sometime walked in the said errors with them . psal. 40. 1. i waited patiently vpon the lord , and he inclined vnto me , and heard my crie . he brought me also out of the horrible pit , and mirie clay , and hath set my feete upon the rocke , and ordereth my goings . and he hath put in my mouth a new song of praise vnto our god : many shall see it , and feare , and trust in the lord. therefore haue i not hid thy righteousnes within my heart , but haue declared thy truth and thy saluation , and haue not concealed thy mercie and thy truth from the great congregation . ver . 10. london , printed by w. iones for robert bird , and are to be sold at his shop in cheapside at the signe of the bible . 1623. their principall points which are handled in this booke : viz. 1 that god did predestinate all men to be saued , vpon condition that they repent and beleeuè the gospell . 2 that god did not elect before all time , to grace and life , any particular persons ; but in time he doth elect qualities , as faith and obedience ; and then finding these qualities in men , he doth elect their persons for the qualities sake . 3 that all men haue free will in themselues , as well to repent of their sinnes , to beleeue the gospell and obtaine saluation , as they haue to remaine in hardnesse of heart and vnbeliefe , and in the estate of damnation . 4 that the stedfastnesse of mans iustification and saluation doth depend vpon his owne will , in continuing in the act of beleeuing and works of righteousnesse ; and that such as haue faith in christ iesus , regenerate persons hauing their names written in the book of life , may fall away from all , may become vnregenerate , and haue their names rased out of the booke of life againe , and perish : and that god doth alter and change his purpose and promise , and come to hate and reiect such as he hath formerly loued and iustified . 5 that there is no originall sinne , but that all children of all maner of people in the world , as well heathens , infidels , idolaters , worshippers of diuels , all kind of blasphemers , fornicators , & vncleane persons whatsoeuer , ( as of the faithfull ) are free from all pollution of sinne , both in the conception and birth ; and dying before they commit actuall sinnes , are saued . 6 that none ought to be baptized but such men and women of yeares onely , as haue attained to true repentance and iustifying faith , being both in the account of the church and in the sight of god regenerate persons : and that the baptisme of children vsed , is no baptisme at all , but is the marke of the beast spoken of in reuelat. 13. 7 that the church of england is a false and antichristian church , and ought to be separated from . as also a touch of the errors of the familists . 8 and that a king or magistrate cannot be a true christian , except he giue ouer his kingly office or magistracie . an advertisement to the christian reader . whereas beloued , there hath risen and sprung vp from amongst vs , many dangerous and erronious opinions , in these our last dayes , about the subiect of religion , let it not therefore seeme strange vnto you , being the spirit of god , did not onely foresee , but also foretold of the same , long before they did appeare , euery one being diuided into sundry and seuerall factions , all pretending to worship the true and euerliuing god in spirit and in truth , speaking peace vnto themselues , when as the most of them do yet lie wallowing in the puddle of iniquity , and cradle of securitie , being not purged in heart : all which doe rise two sundry wayes , being branches of one stocke , deriued from one principall head , ( namely ) the spirit of error : the first is , in that they contemne , or so little , or lightly esteeme that meanes , which by gods prouidence is affoorded vnto vs vnder our peaceable dread soueraigne lord the king. secondly , they being selfe conceited , or as saint paul speakes , aduancing themselues in those things they neuer saw , rashly puft vp with carnall mindes , supposing they know some thing more then others , vnderualuing all , and ouerualuing themselues ; the conceit whereof causeth them to fall to schisme , and seperate from all others , when as indeed and in truth they being examined , by the word and spirit of god , it will appeare to the godly wise , that as yet most of them know nothing aright , or as they ought to know , if euer they expect the saluation of their soules . for if they were but possessed with the true knowledge an liue of god in christ , and so were of a sound mind , at saint paul exhorts all to be , it would rather cause humiliation , then exaltation , which would truly teach euery one how to d●meane & carry himselfe , about so weighty a subiect . the neglect hereof doth bring them into a labyrinth of errors , following after a forme of godlinesse , through the wisdome and knowledge of the braine onely , without the power thereof , contenting themselues in the out side of religion , blessing themselues in what they can doe , and measuring the loue of god to themselues by their owne doings , as of old , their predecessors , the scribes and pharises did : following shadows insteed of substances , dreaming of a kind of felicitie in this forme and in that , seeking peace and rest to their soules , where it is not to be found ; which condition of theirs , i cannot but condole , desiring with the prophet , that my head were water , and mine eyes a fountaine or well of teares , that i might weepe day and night for their misery . and in speciall for them , who are neere and deere vnto me , in the bonds of nature . for poore soules , they couer their spirituall misery , with adams fig tree leaues , or with the spiders web , striuing for an outward separation in the flesh , when alas it is much to be feared , that with many of them there is litle or no care at all for a separation of the soule from sin : challenging and assuming vnto themselues soundnes of religion , and assurance of gods loue , euer measuring themselues by themselues , and not by that eternall wisdome , which is iustified of her children , being blinded through selfe-loue , not willing to iudge themselues , and so become low in their owne eyes , that god might be all in all , but contrariwise iudging and condemning all , but themselues , after this maner doe they follow the vision of their owne hearts , deceiuing and being deceiued , running and flitting from one opinion vnto another , being vnstable in all their wayes . which practise of theirs may well be compared vnto certaine flies , feeding on the backe of a gald horse , which is euer flitting or remouing from one place to another , vntill at last they come to sucke so much venome therefrom , whereby they burst asunder : so likewise doe all such persons , who haue not their hearts established with true sauing grace , but with sundry meates ( that is to say ) with sundry strange and different opinions , ( i call them strange , because they were neuer heard of in all the scriptures , as hereafter shall appeare , ) running from one forme of religion vnto another , vntill at last they come to sucke and feed vpon that poysonable heresie of the familists , who are not worthy to haue so much as the name or title of religion giuen vnto them , it being not onely the last straine or faction they commonly run into , but also destroying and damnable , whereby the word of god is by them blasphemed , and the way of life and truth euill spoken of , to the great dishonour of the great and mightie ichouah , who will one day breake and teare them in peeces ( as with a rod of iron ) when none shall be able to deliuer them , as a iust recompence of reward for all such as take pleasure therein . so then beloued brethren , friends or kindred , of what sex or condition soeuer , whether yong or old , rich or poore , be exhorted and forewarned hereby , not giuing the least heed vnto any lying spirits , vnder what pretence soeuer they haue , may , can or will present themselues vnto you ; but ( on the contrary ) labour by the grace and power you haue , or shall receiue of the lord , to resist and auoid them , euen as our lord and master did that archspirit and enemie of all mankind , knowing that if the least way be giuen , you will be in danger to be inthralled and insnared by their deceiuings . and although some of them be more defectiue and more dangerous to infect the soules of men then others be , as most certaine there are , for there are degrees as well in difference of spirits , as of nature and naturall parts , yet ( i say ) they which may conceiue haue most soundnesse in their opinion , it will be found vpon due and iust triall , not to be that which they would seeme both vnto themselues and others to be , which hereafter will appeare . of these things , my beloued , i can in some measure best aduertise you , being through want of the true sauing knowledge and vnderstanding of god and his truth , caught and intangled by some of them , wandring vp and downe amongst the drie hils and mountaines , conceiuing comfort , when alas i was far from it ; and the farther i wandred vp and downe in that egyptian darknesse , the more intricate labyrinth of error and darknesse my soule was plunged into ; like vnto a blind man who hauing not his perfect sight , goes on in darknesse , vntill at last he falls into a pit of destruction , for want of a guide to conduct and leade him ; and especially when i walked with the anabaptists , which way and practise of theirs , shall euidently appeare to euery honest , true and sanctified heart , not onely to ouerturne and race the foundation of all christian religion , but also ( in as much as in them lieth ) to destroy the faith of iesus christ : all which time , though strangely deluded , yet was i kept by the power and prouidence of god from being seduced and led into that destroying and irrecouerable way of death before mentioned , namely , the familists though very nigh vnto it , hauing one foote entred therein , whiles i walked with the people aforesaid , vntill at last the lord in his appointed time was pleased to giue me a true sight of the misery wherein i was plunged ; one meanes whereof being the rod of correction , which god had laid vpon me , it draue me the more seriously to examine things , and to consider with my selfe , whether the cause ( for which i suffered ) would any whit auaile me vnto saluation , or whether it would minister comfort vnto me in that great and teerible day of the lord. so vpon a more serious suruay of those positions i then maintained , i found them all too light , yea so light , as they were not able to stand against those truths which the holy scriptures teach and maintaine : whereupon immediatly i reiected my former receiued opinions , as erronious and wicked ; so that i may say ( and that truly ) with that holy man dauid , it was good for me that i was corrected and chastised , for till then i went astray . yet notwithstanding , though i was cleane escaped therefrom , within a short time after , i was so far from hauing or enioying true peace and comfort , that in stead thereof , my poore distressed soule was accompanied with nothing but strange feares , terrors and guiltinesse of conscience , crying out against me for nothing but vengeance ; the misery whereof was such , as caused me to lament the time wherein i was borne , not regarding wife , children , or any friends whatsoeuer that came to visit me . the misery wherein i was , did depriue me of being sensible of the least ioy , either in heauen or on earth , being altogether benummed therewith , compassed and set about with many strange and fearfull apparitions of temptations ; the primary and first cause thereof , was that originall guilt which i drew from the loines of my first parents , being the very seed and spawne of all my actuall transgressions ; and so being confounded & vtterly lost , yea oft times in despaire , fearing there was mo mercie with god for me , my sins being so heauy a burden vpon my soule ; then ( euen then ) when i was in greatest despaire , god by his spirit was pleased to worke in me a contrite and broken heart , whereby it was turned from being a stubburne and stonie , by dissoluing 〈◊〉 into a heart of flesh , as soft as water ; and therein ( through 〈◊〉 infinite loue and goodnesse ) did by a more speciall work 〈◊〉 his spirit , write his euerlasting couenant of loue and mercy ●●ich it so much sued , sought and longed for , with full assur●●●● of the remission of all my sins , whereby i stand sealed 〈◊〉 the day of my redemption is accomplished in the second resurrection ; that as certaine as my red●emer liueth and cannot die , so certaine i am that one day i shall enioy that glorious inheritance , purchased through the merits of iesus christ ; which happie and blessed estate , my soule could not enioy , whiles it stucke fast in the quick sands of anabaptistry , being euen welnigh smothered and ouerwhelmed in error and darknesse , vntill the lord was pleased to open the eyes of my vnderstanding , by hearing the word and doctrine of truth , which is maintained by and in the church of england , as namely the doctrine of repentance , free iustification by faith , gods eternall predestination and election from the foundation of the world , that no man hath free will or power to obtaine his owne saluation , and that originall sin to be in all the posteritie of adam , euer since we fell from that happie & blessed estate which once we had in him , with many other excellent truths ; all which is such a certaine and sure foundation that whosoeuer can attaine to walke in the power thereof , the gates of hell shall neuer ouercome nor destroy him : yet notwithstanding all these truths there maintained , i dare not attribute so great a work as this vnto any mortall man whatsoeuer , any otherwise , then his ministery to be the ordinary meanes thereof , but desire to giue the praise ( both now and for euer ) onely to god , vnto whom it is due , he being the principall and chiefe worker therein , by the powerfull minstration of his holy spirit , that so he may be all in all vnto all . and thus in all humilitie of soule , i humbly take my leaue , proceeding vnto that which followeth , beseeching god ( euen the god of all peace , grace , mercie and loue ) to confirme , direct and informe all our hearts by his holy spirit , whereby we may not only come to vnderstand the truth thereof , but also to practise the same in our liues and conuersations , to the praise of the glorie of his grace , vntill we come to be safe ariued at the promised ierusalem , which is the hauen or port of eternall rest , therein shall all teares be wiped from our eyes , and so enioy the presence of our lord and sauiour iesus christ , the prince of our saluation ; to whom with the father and the holy spirit , be all praise , honour and glorie giuen of his saints for euermore . amen . yours in all christian dutie , edmond iessop . a discoverie of the errors of the anabaptists . their first point . that god did predestinate all men to be saued , vpon condition that they repent , and beleeue the gospell . we answer . god did not predestinate all men to be saued , nor any man vpon any condition , either of repentance , faith , or whatsoeuer else was to be expected or could be foreseene in them . but his predestination was in this sort : first , god ( before he created any thing ) saw and foreknew what would be the nature & euent of all things ; how though he made as excellent creatures as could be created , yet there would be weaknesse and folly found in them ; because to be absolutely perfect and vnchangeable , is proper only to god the creator . so that it was impossible god should make his creature equall with himselfe , to will all things that be good perfectly and vnchangeably , and to do all things that such a will can desire ; for then he must be god , able to create , which is impossible , because there can be but one god , which is the first beginner and lord of all creatures . this one god foreseeing ( i say ) what would become of the best creatures he could make ; how though he should require nothing at their hands but that which they might easily obserue ( and it was meet and very requisite they should acknowledge a dutie to him their first beginner and lord , in whose goodnesse and power their life and safetie did depend , ) yet they would neglect the same , and fall from him : he therefore of his meere goodnes ( hauing great respect vnto his creature which he had resolued to make ; and being exceeding willing , not for any thing he could foresee in them , but for his owne good pleasure & glorie sake , to saue and glorifie of the same , consulting with himselfe and with his eternall wisedome which way and how he might bring his desire to passe ) did determine , by election , in and through the same his eternall wisedome , his euerlasting and onely sonne , which was before the depths euer with him as his counseller and hearts delight , to sustaine of the one sort , i meane the angels , and to redeeme of the other sort , i meane mankind , such a compleat sufficient companie of both , as himselfe pleased , to be at his right hand , to behold his glorie , to minister before him , & to partake of his pleasures for euermore . and because there was no way else , but by redemption to saue mankind , by reason the first man being once fallen , all the rest then in his loines , who were to come of him by generation , fell together with him ; and that there was not any one in heauen or in earth , that was able to vndoe the workes of the diuell , and to deliuer those his elect from his seruitude and bondage , but onely the same his eternall wisedom , the word whereby he made the world ; therefore as he had chosen them in him , so did he decree to send him into the world , and in a wonderfull maner to take mans nature and flesh on him , that therein he might accomplish his purpose , and bring his counsell and desire to passe , in subduing his and their enemie , and purchasing redemption for them by his death and resurrection . and as he did determine before the world was , to send him ; so did he predestinate them ( whom he had chosen in him and foreknew ) to be conformed to his image , that he might be the first borne among many brethren ; the rest he resolued to leaue , and to reward them with the fruite of their owne wayes . thus god foresaw all things , thus did he by his wisedome find out a way to sustaine and restore of his creatures , this was his decree , and in this sort did he predestinate . god did not , neither is he euer said in scripture to predestinate any to do euill , nor to preordaine any to condemnation , but vpon the foresight of their folly and wickednesse , as the cause and ground thereof : and so the saluation of man is freely and onely in god , in christ ; and the condemnation of man is meerly and truly of himselfe , without any secret reseruation whatsoeuer : as it is written , o israel , destruction is of thy selfe , but thy saluation is of god. their second point . that god did not elect before all time , to grace and life , any particular persons ; but in time he doth elect qualities , as faith and obedience , and then finding these qualities in men , he doth elect their persons for the qualities sake . answ . to affirme that god did not elect in christ , before all time , some particular persons to grace , holinesse & life eternal , is to denie gods free & vndeserued loue ; and to say , that god doth elect qualities , is senslesse ; and to teach , that god doth elect persons for qualities sake , is very erroneous and antichristian . we say therefore , that gods election is after this maner : first , before men or qualities of any sort were , god of his meere loue did elect and chuse in christ , out of the whole posteritie and race of mankind , which he foresaw , and were before him , as if they had actually been , a seed , a remnant , to be his people , to be his heritage , to be holy and without blame before him in loue , as saint paul doth testifie , saying , blessed be the god and father of our lord iesus christ , who hath blessed vs with all spirituall blessings in heauenly things in christ , according as he hath chosen vs in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in loue ; hauing predestinated vs vnto the adoption of children by iesus christ to himselfe , according to the good pleasure of his owne will , to the praise of the glorie of his grace . whence it is euident , that god did chuse a people to himselfe , euen before the foundation of the world , not for qualities sake , which then were not , but for his owne good pleasure sake , and to the end that they should be in time qualified with spirituall and heauenly gifts , holy affections , blamelesse life and holy conuersation , euen as he did predestinate them also before the world vnto the adoption of children by iesus christ , which was to be actually fulfilled in time , that so all might be to the praise of the glorie of his grace . and for further proofe , that election is before qualities of faith and obedience , and not of qualities , but of persons to be qualified ; see what christ himselfe saith , ( foretelling of the great abhomination of desolation , & dayes of the tribulation of antichrist , which should come into the world , whereby the truth should be cast to the ground , and the saints of the most high consumed ) but for the elects sake those dayes shall be shortned : meaning by the elect , not qualities , nor persons qualified , but persons to be qualified , not then being , nor to be till many hundred yeares after , euen till these our times , as experience hath proued . for those dayes of desolation were not then begun , neither did that man of sinne rise vp till neare foure hundred yeares after ; and those elect were to be in the dayes of his consumption , when his dayes of desolation should begin to grow short , as the text sheweth , which time is now at last come into the world . and although his time of desolation hath been long , and that his dayes of tyrannie are not yet fully ended , yet neuerthelesse both it and they , are now well wasted and shortned , according to the word of the lord , and his gospel shineth in stead thereof , not only in other kingdomes and parts abroad , but chiefly in this our land , blessed be his name therefore ; which had it not been , had antichrist with his dayes of desolation continued still in the full strength and height they were , had not he that sitteth on the white horse , whose name is called the word of god , taken his owne cause in hand , and with the spirit of his mouth consumed and cut short ( as he daily doth ) those abhominable dayes of the man of sin , questionlesse , no flesh should now in these last times haue bin saued , but all had bin ouerwhelmed with his deceit , as it is writtē , and except those dayes should be shortned , there should no flesh be saued ; but for the elects sake those dayes shall be shortned : nay they are shortned , the light of the gospel shineth , & the elect are thereby daily called , sanctified and saued . hence it is euident , that election is before calling and iustification ( euen as predestination is , ) seeing god doth count and call them his elect , so long before they are in being ; and that election is to those blessed ends , whereof the gospell is the onely meanes . and for further confirmation of this point , saint paul declareth , that all the seed which god did couenant with abraham , to call in isaac , saying , in isaac shall thy seed by called , yea isaac himselfe and iacob likewise , were chosen of god in christ , and knowne of him , before either christ or one thousand part of that seede were borne ; being onely promised of god to abraham , as a seed and generation spirituall , not of isaac and his naturall ofspring onely , but of the gentiles also , and were to be deriued in a spirituall maner of that one seed the messias promised , in which abraham beleeued , though he were not to come into the world for many hundred yeares after ; in respect whereof god said vnto him , i haue made thee a father of many nations . this seed of abraham , saint paul calleth the children of promise , because they are all borne by promise , as was isaac , being of that one seed which is christ , and part of that small remnant which he had reserued in him before the foundation of the world , but for whose sake we had not continued till now , but had been made like sodome long before this day . and that this seed and children of abraham were ▪ chosen of god in christ before they were borne , saint paul further proueth it by the words spoken to rebecca concerning iacob , saying , and not onely this , but when rebecca also was conceiued by one , euen by our father isaac ; for the children being not yet borne , nor hauing done good or euil , that the purpose of god according to election might stand , not of works , but by reason of him that calleth , it was said vnto her , the elder shall serue the yonger ; as it is witten : iacob haue i loued , and esaw haue i hated . by this word of promise concerning iacob , saint paul proueth more fully ( i say ) that which in substance he had declared before by the word of promise , as touching isaac , and as concerning the seed which god did promise abraham to call in isaac ; namely that the purpose of god according to election , his free loue in chusing vs first in christ , is the true ground and principall cause of all spirituall blessings in heauenly things , which in time we come to enjoy in him . for doubtlesse there was no cause in iacob more then in esaw , why god should haue this respect vnto him more then to esaw ; the seed of euill was sowne in him also , and their natures were both corrupt , euen from their conception , yea from adam , in whose loines both they and their parents were when he transgressed . and as the tree or plant , which for want of strength being yong & tender , cannot yeeld forth fruit , whereby it nature may be shewen , yet ( being in nature euill ) the substance and root of euill is therein , and so as without a replantation and coniunction with some tree or plant of better nature , it can bring forth no other but euill fruit : so iacob as well as esaw , his nature being also corrupt and euill , had not god intercepted him , and ( as he had chosen him before in christ ) so by a new birth or replantation changed his nature , his heart i meane , he would haue brought forth no other but euill fruit also ( as well as his brother esaw ) euen to his last houre , and so haue perished together . thus much shall serue for the truth of gods election . their third point is : that all men haue free will in themselues , as well to repent of their sinnes , to beleeue the gospell and obtaine saluation , as they haue to remaine in hardnesse of heart and vnbeliefe , and in the estate of damnation . answ . to teach that all or that any men haue as free will in themselues to repent , to beleeue the gospell , and obtaine saluation , as they haue to remaine in the contraries , is very erroneous and antichristian . but the truth is this . that as we haue all sinned in and from our father adam , and are excluded from the glorie of god and from the ioy of his presence ; so haue we all lost and are depriued of all possibilitie in will or power of nature to act any thing either inward or outward , as touching the law , or as concerning the gospell , whereby to recouer our selues againe , or euer to obtaine that which we haue lost . so that notwithstanding the gospell be preached to all , and that euery one is inuited to the feast thereof , and that there is not any other way or meanes whereby we may possibly recouer and liue ; yet the most part of the world do vtterly refuse to come , so much as to the outward acceptation thereof : and those that doe come , who being enlightned by the holy ghost , do assent vnto the truth of the gospell , and so come in vnto the outward profession thereof , yet for all this ( such is the euill heart of man ) if god should not vouchsafe ( according to his eternall purpose and promise ) to call in a more speciall maner them whom he foreknew , and had predestinated to be conformed to the image of his sonne , to call them ( i say ) by a more speciall gift and power of the holy ghost , first to repentance , in turning their hearts from all the delight and pleasure they had taken in sinne and in the vanities of the flesh and this world , into a wonderfull great sorrow of heart , mourning and weeping for the same , causing them also with many teares to lament the time that euer they tooke pleasure therein ; and falling downe at the feete of god , with humble hearts confesse vnto him those their sins and follies , desiring vnspeakably & restlesly , mercie and forgiuenesse at his hands , loue and reconciliation with him ; thus taking first away their hard and stony hearts , and giuing them hearts of flesh , soft and tender hearts ; and then ( in the second place ) to write ( not with inke and pen , but with the speciall finger of his holy spirit , not in tables of stone , but in these the fleshly tables of their hearts ) these their repentant hearts , his couenant of mercie and loue , assuring them that their sinnes be forgiuen , and that he is reconciled with them , and they with him in iesus christ , whom now they haue put on by faith . if god should not haue vouchsafed ( i say ) thus to call them whom he had predestinated , thus to iustifie them and cloathe them , ( but that he is faithfull and cannot lie , keeping his couenant for euer , as touching that seed which he did promise to call in isaac ) they would and should haue perished with the rest , notwithstanding any free will or power they haue in nature ( more then they ) to attaine to these things . but peraduenture some impudent person will obiect , that if god doth call and sanctifie some in such a speciall maner , by more speciall gifts of the spirit , then he doth affoord to others ; then his not affoording the same vnto them , is the cause of their miserie . to answer them , put the case that there were two yong men , that hauing receiued at their parents hands their portions , haue through riot and leudnesse spent all , and brought themselues into so great pouertie and debt , as that they haue no way or meanes whereby ( possibly ) they can recouer and raise themselues againe , but are both like to liue in miserie to their dying dayes : tell me , haue they not been ( themselues ) the authors of this their owne ruine and decay ? and is not this misery iust vpon ? i suppose ( as little grace as thou hast ) thou wilt answer , yea. but admit there were a man of great substance , who should out of his owne bountie , freely , and of his owne accord deliuer one of these yong men out of his miserie , pay his debts , and restore him to his former estate againe ; is this rich man , by his free bountie to the one , become now the cause of the others misery ? doest thou dare to affirme it ? must thine eye needs now be euil , because he is bountiful ? is it not lawful for him to bestow his owne where and on whom he pleaseth ? or doest thou meane , that his not doing the like for the other , is the cause of his continuall miserie . to answer thee , did hee not bring himselfe into it ? and was it not of it selfe , continuall and iust by thine owne confession ? how then may the thing that neuer was done , be the cause of that which is in being ? can the effect be before the cause ? i haue heard that the cause is before the effect , but i neuer heard that the effect is or can be before the cause . but if i should admit of thine opinion , that all men haue free will in themselues , to chuse , as they haue to refuse grace offered ; to see what the issue thereof will be , let me aske thee , what is the reason then , that but some men do chuse grace ? is it because they haue a better , and more inclinable will in them by nature then their fellowes ? if there be no speciall gift of grace to moue them , it must be some speciall gift or qualitie of nature . for such a speciall differing effect , must haue a speciall differing cause . or wilt thou say , it is by the operation or secret motion of some planet ( as some heathenishly conceiue : ) if so , yet it is in some sort naturall . the effects we speake of , are the baptisme of repentance , & the purification of faith , called in scripture , the baptisme or birth of water and of the holy ghost , which are the parts of our regeneration : now can any gifts or qualities of nature , or operations of planets , produce or cause such effects as these ? nay doublesse ; for causes are always greater then effects ; and greater things then these , are not to be found in the natures of men or planets , but in god , who by the speciall power and vertue of his holy spirit , doth cause these great effects , doth worke and produce this new and heauenly birth ; and therefore the persons thus qualified , are said in scripture to be borne of god , 1. ioh. 3. 9. if thou saist , that god put this difference in the will of man by creation ; then thou makest god the author and cause of sinne , which thou wouldest seeme to auoid , by excluding his speciall gifts of the spirit , fearing as if it led thee to it ; whereas it is but thy grosse apprehension that makes thee feare ; and by this meanes thou runnest thy selfe out of breath , thou knowest not whither . so then to conclude this point with saint pauls words , it is not in him that willeth , nor in him that runneth , but in god that sheweth mercie . their fourth point is : that the stedfastnesse of mans iustification and saluation doth depend vpon his owne will , in continuing in the act of beleeuing and works of righteousnesse ; and that such as haue faith in christ iesus , regenerate persons hauing their names written in the book of life , may fall away from all , may become vnregenerate , and haue their names rased out of the booke of life againe , and perish : and that god doth alter and change his purpose and promise , and come to hate and reiect such as he hath formerly loued and iustified . answ . to teach that the stedfastnes of mans iustification & saluation , doth depend vpon his owne will , in continuing in the act of beleeuing and works of righteousnes ; and that such as haue faith in christ , regenerate persons , hauing their names written in the book of life , may fall away from all , become vnregenerate , and haue their names rased out of the booke of life , and perish ; and y● god doth alter his purpose & promise of mercie and loue , and come to hate and reiect such as he hath formerly loued and iustified : to teach all this ( i say ) is to denie the very foundation , and to make god vnfaithfull , and is one of the maine errors of the antichristian church of rome . but the doctrine of the church of god is this : that such as to whom god hath giuen true repentance , and faith in christ whereby they are iustified from their sinnes , and haue their hearts sanctified , such as haue their parts in the first resurrection , whose names were written in the booke of life from the foundation of the world , shall neuer fall away from this estate , nor from any part thereof ; because they stand not , neither are kept by the strength of their owne will , act of faith , or works of righteousnes , but by the power & strength of god , in and through the vertue and life of christ their head . for as god the father did of himselfe , first chuse them in christ his sonne , and predestinate them vnto the adoption of children , and to be conformed to the image of his sonne , euen from the foundation of the world ; and as he also in time calleth them to repentance , iustifieth them , & purifieth their hearts by faith , through grace in christ , and by the spirit of his son , which he sendeth forth into their hearts , doth adopt them to be his children , and conforme them to the image and likenesse of his sonne , both in respect of his death , and also in regard of his resurrection , dying to sinne , and rising to holinesse and newnesse of life ; from minding earthly things , to set their affections on things that are aboue , where christ sitteth at his right hand : so ( i say ) it is god which in and through his son , doth keepe and defend them , as it is written , who are kept by the power of god through faith vnto saluation . yea he is the rock of their saluation , and strong tower of defence ; he is their watch-man , which doth neither slumber nor sleep ; their shepherd that feedeth them , as the psalmist speaketh ; he is the husband-man , that did not only ingraft and plant them in his sonne the true vine , and cause them to beare fruite in him , but euery branch that beareth fruit in him , he purgeth , that it may beare more fruit ; he gaue them his sonne , and his son them , and the sonne reiecteth none that come vnto him , but taketh them into his protection , like the good shepherd , and they heare his voice , and he knoweth them , and they follow him , and he wil giue them eternal life , & they shall not perish , for none are able to pluck them out of his hands ; and the father that gaue them him , is greater then all , and no man is able to plucke them out of his fathers hands . nay if satan should desire to sift them , and that their faith ( through the violence of temptation ) should seeme to faile , as touching their act of beleeuing , and that their fruit ( by meanes thereof ) should not appeare , ( for so it may sometimes befall them , as it did the apostle peter ) yet notwithstanding , the lord their rocke , the foundation and chiefe corner stone , whereon these liuely stones are built , sustaineth and vpholdeth them ; the vertue and strength of him , the true vine , in which they are ingraffed , the son in whom they haue beleeued ( he hauing also prayed the father , that their faith faile not ) shall raise them vp ▪ refresh them , and make them to flourish again , as well in regard of their faith , as fruites ; and being thus conuerted and raised vp , shal be able thenceforth to strengthen their brethren . and in these respects & considerations , christ faith to peter , vpon this rocke will i build my church , and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it . for as at the first they were not iustified from their sinnes by their owne act of beleeuing , though their act of beleeuing were necessary vnto their iustification ; nor yet by their works of righteousnes which followed , though they were also necessary for the proofe and manifestation of their faith ; but by the free grace of god in iesus christ , ministred vnto them by his word and spirit , which their act of faith onely ( in their hearts ) doth entertaine : so neither doe they stand , or are vpholden , by their act of beleeuing , though it be necessary also , for their continuall comfort , that they should be euermore exercised , as in the word and promise of god , so in the act of beleeuing , going on still from strength to strength , drawing nearer and nearer vnto god , in the full assurance of faith , vntill at last they come to see his face , and enioy his presence , in the promised ierusalem , where is all fulnesse of ioy , and at whose right hand there are pleasures for euermore , ( as assuredly one day they shall ; ) not yet by their works of righteousnesse , though it be likewise necessary , that they should be alwayes walking in , and working the works of righteousnes : but the stedfastnesse and certaintie of their estates in christ , their life , saluation , and glorie euerlasting , dependeth on the stedfastnesse , certaintie and vnchangeablenesse of gods purpose , promise , loue , and on the loue and life of christ their head , which was once dead , but is now aliue , and liueth still for euermore . and so sure and certaine as god purposeth , and it cometh to passe , as he promiseth and faileth not , loueth once , and loueth to the end ; so sure as christ which loueth them liueth , shall they abide in him , liue by him , and not die for euer ; as it is written , he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood , dwelleth in me , and i in him . as the liuing father hath sent me , and i liue by the father , so he that eateth me , euen he shall liue by me . for he is the bread of life ; and euery one that beleeueth in him , doth ( in a spirituall maner ) eate of him , and so liueth by him , and shal haue euerlasting life . for as saint paul reasoneth , if when we were enemies , we were reconciled to god by the death of his sonne ; much more being reconciled , shall we be saued by his life . so that he that is once iustified by the blood of christ , and reconciled to god through faith in him , his estate is certain and permanent : and though the mountaines shall depart , and the hils be moued , yet shall not the kindnesse and loue of god in christ depart , nor the couenant of peace towards them in him , be euer remoued from them , as the prophet testifieth . nay what shall or can possibly separate them from the loue of christ , or frō the loue of god the father towards them in him ? shall tribulation , or distresse , or persecution , or famine , or nakednes , or perill , or sword ? as it is written , for thy sake are we killed all the day long , and are counted as sheepe for the slaughter . nay saith saint paul , in all these things we are more then conquerours through him that loued vs. for i am perswaded ( saith he ) that neither death nor life , nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come , nor height , nor depth , nor any other creature , shall be able to separate vs from the loue of god , which is in christ iesus our lord. thus , as god did predestinate , call , iustifie and sanctifie them ; so it is he that keepeth & defendeth them ; and the stedfastnes of their estates in him , doth depend vpon the stedfastnes and immutabilitie of his purpose , promise , loue , and on the loue and life of christ ; and all is free , without any respect of will , faith , or works of ours , in him and of him ; to whom be all power and glorie , praise and thanksgiuing for euer . amen . but some will obiect and say , what then meaneth the scriptures , which so often speake of falling away from righteousnesse , from faith ; from christ , from god ; as where it saith , but when the righteous man turneth away from his righteousnes , and committeth iniquitie , and dieth in them ; for the iniquities that he hath done , shall be die . and againe it is said , that he which taketh the plough by the hand and looketh behind him , is not meete for the kingdome of god. and againe , when a soule spirit is cast out of a man , and he walking in drie places , findeth no rest , but returneth to the house from whence he came out ; and finding it swept and garnished , entreth therein with seuen more worse then himselfe ; and the end of that man shall be worse then the beginning . and again , some are said to beleeue for a time , to be offended when tribulation cometh . and some branches are said to be taken away from the vine . others to withdraw themselues , and to depart away from the liuing god : to be made partakers of the holy ghost , and to taste of the good word of god and of the powers of the world to come , and to fall away , not to be renewed againe by repentance . that a man may be sanctified by the blood of the testament , and afterwards tread vnder foote the son of god , and count the same blood as an vnholy thing , and despight the spirit of grace . some to be cleane escaped from the filthinesse of the world , and after this to be entangled againe , whose end also is worse then the beginning , likened vnto the dog that returneth to his owne vomit , and to the sow that is washed , and turneth to wallow in the mire againe : and some that do make shipwrack of faith and a good conscience ; with diuers other sayings to this purpose . also these doubtfull speeches : he that endureth to the end . if ye hold fast vnto the end : whose house ye are if ye continue . he that ouercometh and keepeth my words vnto the end . and againe : let them be blotted out of the booke of the liuing . i will take away his part out of the booke of life , and out of the holy citie . these scriptures seeme to contradict all that is said before , and to proue that there is no estate to be attained vnto , but may be fallen from , lost and vndone againe . these scriptures may seeme ( with men not instructed of god ) to contradict all what haue been mentioned before , and to proue a falling away from all grace whatsoeuer ; but with such as god hath been pleased to instruct , it is otherwise : and although not only your sects , but the antichristian church of rome , the arminians and others , doe conceiue and teach from these scriptures , that there is no estate to be attained vnto in this life , but men may fall therefrom and perish : and because you will not admit ( as it were too grosse yee should ) of contradiction in scriptures , wrest & wring all the former scriptures which doe cleerly proue the contrary , either to make for this your erronious conceit , or else ( at least ) not to oppose the same ; yet i say neuerthelesse , the truth is , that ye are deceiued , not only in this , but in the other of your points , being ( most of them ) of the same nature , but all tending to the wrong marke . it is true , these scriptures do plainly shew , that men may attaine to many excellent graces and gifts of the holy ghost ; they may receiue the word with ioy , take the plough by the hand , be enlightned , beleeue and be baptized ; they may be branches in the vine ; they may haue a foule spirit cast out of them , and be swept and garnished ; they may taste of the heauenly gift , and be made partakers of the holy ghost , and taste of the good word of god , and of the powers of the world to come ; they may be in some respects sanctified by the blood of the testament , and be cleane escaped from the pollutions of the world ; they may haue a kind of righteousnes , and be in some sort termed righteous men ; they may haue faith to cast out diuels , and doe many great works : all this they may attaine vnto , and yet come short of the chiefe things , fall away from all , lose all , and christ may ( notwithstanding all these things ) iustly and truly say vnto them ( in the day of account ) depart from me ye workers of iniquitie , i neuer knew ye . and it is as true , that there be greater and more speciall things then all these , which whosoeuer can attain , shall as certainly abide in christ and be saued , as christ abideth in the father and liueth . but the greatest difficultie lieth in this , to distinguish these things rightly asunder , according to the meaning of the scriptures , that so their true difference being discerned of vs , we may not only auoide the great confusion , which the want thereof hath caused in the mindes of many , and the sundry errors , they through their ignorance haue fallen into , but may be brought to examine and proue our selues by the rule thereof , whether our estates be yet such as will abide the triall in the day of account , or no. if we find that they be , we haue then great cause of comfort : if not , then haue we great reason to feare , and with all speed to humble our soules before god , and earnestly ●o desire him , that he would be pleased to forme his sonne christ in vs , and to conforme vs vnto his image , which is the estate that will giue vs boldnes in the day of his appearing . now that we may rightly vnderstand these things , and discerne their true difference , let vs obserue , that as the gospel hath two seuerall operations in the hearts and consciences of men , ( to some it is the sauour of life vnto life , and to others the sauour of death vnto death , not of it selfe , but through the wickednes of mens hearts : ) so likewise there is a two-fold administration thereof , the one generall , common to all , the other speciall , peculiar to a few : that which is generall and common , is a publique declaration , that such a thing there is , whereby all men in general haue this benefit , ( namely ) y● whereas after adam had sinned , before the promise was made , that the seed of the woman should bruise the serpents head , there was no time nor place for repentance to any , nor remission of sins vpon any ground to be expected ; now since that time , by vertue of the promise , all sinne i● made pardonable , there is time and place for repentance to all , and remission of sinnes thereupon granted ; so that whosoeuer shall come , and with sorrow of heart confesse his sinnes vnto god , and humbly desire mercie and forgiuenesse at his hands , shall receiue it ; and thus far the gospell is preached to all , euen to euery creature vnder heauen , as saint paul speaketh : so that there is not , nor hath been a nation or people , in any time or part of the world , that can truly say , we haue not heard it ; for ( as it is written ) their sound went forth throughout all the earth , and their words vnto the ends of the world ; and so all are left without excuse , because god hath not left himselfe without witnesse . but the maner and measure of gods declaration of his gospell , hath been diuers : he declared it vnto the nations of the gentiles in former times , yea and at this present doth in diuers parts of the world , onely by the workes which he hath created , and benefits that he daily giueth them , as the heauens and firmament , day and night , sunne and raine , and in that he giueth them fruitfull seasons , filling their hearts with food and gladnesse , with many other blessings ; all which do ( in their maner and kind ) preach and declare vnto them , that god is good and gracious to mankind , and hath some speciall respect vnto him , and doe also call vpon them daily to seeke him that made all , and giueth all those good things vnto them , and proueth vnto them , that if they had sought , they might haue found , in him , yet greater things , which some of them ( doubles ) haue attained vnto , & the rest by this means are left without excuse . he shewed it to the nation of the hebrewes , not onely by his works and benefits , which they ( especially had in great abundance , ) but in another more excellent maner , and in a far greater measure , as namely by the testimonies of the fathers , and by the ministerie of moses and the prophets , who receiued it from god , and spake as they were moued by the holy ghost ; he stretched forth his hand all the day long vnto that people , preaching his gospell ( the word of faith vnto them ; so as that they of all other , had least reason to say in their hearts , who shall ascend into heauen for vs , to fetch it vs ? or who shall go downe into the deepe to bring it vs , that we may heare it and doe it ? but the word was nigh enough vnto them , euen in their mouthes and in their hearts , and if the gentiles were left without excuse , much more they . and now he hath spoken and declared it vnto vs in these last times by his sonne iesus christ , that seed which was promised to adam , to abraham , was spoken of by moses , foretold by the prophets , in whom , by whom , and through whom , all blessings , all hope , all grace , and life is granted , is purchased , is to be attained , by him ( i say ) and by his holy apostles , in the power and gifts of the holy ghost , he hath declared vnto vs all things cleerly , many whereof being such as in all other former ages were not knowne : so that the earth floweth with the knowledge of the gospell in these dayes , aboue all those other times past , and many haue been enlightned through the preaching of it , by the spirit , and haue beleeued and giuen their assents vnto the truth of it ; many haue tasted of the heauenly gift , and haue been made partakers of the holy ghost , haue tasted of the good word of god , and of the powers of the world to come ; many are able to preach and discourse thereof in great and excellent measure ; and if the hebrewes could at no time ( truly say , we haue not heard it ) nor yet those gentiles that had not the law , to wit , those scriptures and ordinances of the law , which the hebrewes had : what can we then say , who haue not only had all the meanes and light which those gentiles & hebrews had , but also the plaine reuelation of the gospell , according as it was foretold to be in these last times , confirmed by the death & resurrection of iesus christ , and left recorded vnto vs by his holy apostles in full measure ; how can it be ( i say ) therefore , but that the things which we haue heard and beleeued , will be vnto vs the sauour of death vnto death in a fuller and larger measure , then vnto any of them , seeing we haue receiued a greater & larger measure of knowledge , if we obey not the gospell , if we attaine not vnto the speciall grace and benefits thereof : for as the lord himselfe testifieth , he that knoweth his masters will , and doth it not , shall be beaten with many stripes . but some will say , we haue not onely knowledge of his will , but obedience also , we are not like vnto those strange fornicators and idolaters of the gentiles , nor as the cruell , vnbeleeuing hebrewes , which killed the prophets , and murdered the lord of glorie ; neither are we of the common sinners of the world , though we haue been so heretofore ; nay the power of the holy ghost , by the preaching of the word of god , hath altered vs , the foule spirit is now cast out by a stronger then he , we are now cleane escaped from the filthinesse of the world , our liues and actions are reformed , we apply our selues now to the hearing of the word , we conferre thereof , and reade it oft , we pray also oft , we receiue the sacraments oft , we instruct our children and our seruants in the principles of christian religion , we keep the sabbath , we distribute of our goods to the poore , we neglect no dutie which we conceiue we ought to performe ; so that we are washed and sanctified by the blood of the testament . i confesse , thou hast here a kind of obedience , and doest ( in part ) thy masters will , and art so far forth sanctified by the blood of the testament , for by it , all graces and gifts of the spirit are purchased , and thou couldest neuer haue attained to these things but by vertue of it ; yet i say , notwithstanding all this , the chiefe thing may be wanting in thee ; for if this be to do thy masters will , according to our sauiours meaning , then ( doubtlesse ) the scribes and pharises did his will as wel as thee ; they made cleane the outside of the cup and platter , they had such a kind of beliefe , and were as strict in all outward obseruations as all this , and yet their insides were foule , their hearts were full of rancor and malice ; and so may it be with thee for all this . here is a faire blade indeede , but where is the fruit ? doest thou not know that except thy righteousnes exceed the righteousnes of the scribes and pharises , thou shalt in no wise enter into the kingdome of god ? herod heard iohn gladly , and did many things willingly ; and iudas no doubt was faire in the leafe , but his heart was euer corrupt , as the euangelist testifieth , saying , this he spake , not that he had care of the poore , but that he was couetous , and carried the bag . how thinkest thou , can an euill tree bring forth good fruit ? or can one and the same fountaine , bring forth sweet waters , and bitter ? or can a stincking polluted fountaine , bring forth sweet waters ? the heart of man is the tree or fountaine , from whence either good or euill commeth , as christ himselfe testifieth ; a good man out of the good treasure of the heart , bringeth forth that which is good ; and an euill man out of the euill treasure of his heart , bringeth forth that which is euill . if thy heart be euill and vncleane , how canst thou then bring forth from thence any good fruit ? grant thou art sanctified outwardly , thou hast belieued and art baptized , thou hearest the word with ioy , thou art all as before is spoken , yet if in heart thou beest hard and vnrepentant , proud , puft vp , couetous , vnmercifull , one that louest thy selfe and this present euill world , enuious to others , cruell , what will all thy beliefe and righteousnes auaile thee ? nay , admit thou hadst all faith , so as thou couldest moue mountaines , and that thou shouldst giue all thy goods to the poore , and thy bodie to be burned , and that no man could tax thy heart by any euill fruit that yet appeared , nor thy selfe perceiue thine owne heart to be euill ; yet if thou hast not that faith which worketh by loue , that loue with her naturall properties , which the apostle describeth , saying , loue suffereth long , and is kind , it enuieth not , it vaunteth not it selfe , it is not puffed vp , it behaueth not it selfe vnseemly , it seeketh not her own , it is not easily prouoked , it thinketh none euill , it reioyceth not in iniquite , but it reioyceth in the truth ; it beareth all things , it belieueth all things , it hopeth all things , it endureth all things . i say if thou hast not that faith which bringeth forth these effects , thou art nothing , thou art but as a sounding brasse , and as a tinckling cimball , notwithstanding all thy gifts of knowledge , faith , prophesie , righteousnes , or whatsoeuer , and shalt be found to be , but either as the high waies side , or as the stony ground , or thornie ground mentioned in the gospell , which indured not , which neuer came to bring forth goodfruit , neither in the greatest , nor least measure , ( like vnto the good ground described after , ) and thy end will be like that earth , which notwithstanding the raine commeth oft vpon it , bringeth forth nothing but thornes and briars , and is therefore neere vnto cursing ; and as the tree , which though it haue had much dressing , yet because it bringeth not forth goodfruit , is hewen downe and cast into the fire . consider therefore what neede there is , that we should dilligently enquire into these things , and see the difference betweene these two estates , and that our care and study , might , and dayly should be to learne the best . now touching the speciall administration of the gospell , and those gifts of the spirit , which are perticuliar to afew , euen gods elect onely . the speciall administration of the gospell is this , namely a particular application , or preaching the word of promise , the glad tidings of peace , the forgiuenesse of sins to the soule of a sinner , whereby he is truly possest of the grace & loue of god in iesus christ through faith in him , and of the forgiuenesse of his sinnes ; and this is neuer done but by a speciall gift and power of the holy ghost . now the course which god doth take to effect and bring this thing to passe , is this ; when and after such time , as god by the generall administration of his gospell , hath made knowne , and by a common gift of the spirit , hath caused them to beleeue , and assent vnto , the summe , or necessary parts thereof , as namely , that repentance and remission of sins is granted to sinners , and saluation to all that can attaine thereto : then doth he by a special & more effectuall gift of the spirit , work vpon the hearts of his elect , whom he fore knew , and had predestinate , calling them to repentance ( that is to say ) turning them from all their sinnes , and from the wayes of all the fleshly , and sinfull pleasures , wherein their soules had formerly delighted , into a great feare & sorrow for the same , and with many teares to lament the time that euer they tooke pleasure therein ; and falling downe before him , with humble and contrite hearts , confesse their sins vnto him , desiring in an vnspeakable maner , mercy and forgiuenesse at his hands , peace , loue , and reconciliation with him ; which till they obtaine , they can take no rest , they haue no ioy , they cannot be satisfied , none of all their former delights will afford them now any comfort ; they stand aloofe looking strangely vpon them , like friends in aduersitie , finding them now no fit companions for them ; nay , there is not any thing , that will , or can relieue their poore distressed soules , or giue them their desired content , but onely the loue of god in iesus christ , sealed in their hearts by his holy spirit of promise . these are those poore which the scriptures speake of , vnto whom christ was sent to preach good tidings , the bruised and broken in heart , them that labour sore , and are heauie laden , the sicke , the lost , the dead , which christ came to binde vp , to heale , to seeke out , to quicken and raise to life ; these i say , and none but these , are they whom the prophet speaketh of , testifying of the sauiour , and of the speciall administration of the gospell of peace : saying , the spirit of the lord is vpon me , and he hath anointed me to preach good tidings to the poore , he hath sent me to binde vp the broken hearted , to proclaime liberty to the captiues , and the opening of the prison to them that are bound , to proclaime the acceptable yeare of the lord , and the day of vengeance of our god , to comfort all that mourne , to appoint vnto them that mourne in sion , to giue vnto them , beauty for ashes , the oyle of ioy for mourning , the garment of praise for the spirit of heauinesse , that they might be called , trees of righteousnes , the plantation of the lord , that he may be glorifiea . and these are the poore , of whom christ himselfe speaketh , saying , and the poore haue the gospell preached vnto them ; or receiue the gospell , as some translations haue it ; for the word doth import such a preaching , as doth imply a receiuing of it , in the heart of him to whom it is so preached , as also doth the words of esay before mentioned . and although all haue it preached vnto them in the former generall maner , yet none haue it preached vnto them in this speciall peculiar sort , but these poore repentant persons onely , who alone are capable of the receit thereof , by faith vnto iustification ; ( & this is that effect of the holy ghost in the heart of man , ) which the scriptures call , the baptisme of iohn , the baptisme of water , the baptisme of repentance , the birth of water , the baptisme which iohn preached , the preparation of the gospell of peace , repentance ; which is , the beginning of the gospell of iesus christ , the first principall of the doctrine of christ , the beginning and first part of regeneration , as the scripture declareth it ; the labour and trauell in the birth , but not the full perfection of the new birth , onely the soule of the sinner trauelleth readie to be deliuered ; this is the second effect of the holy ghost , but the first peculiar . then doth god in the third place , reach forth his hand , and taketh hold of this poore labouring soule , and by another speciall effect , and power of the holy ghost , doth deliuer him , and bring him forth , washeth him & cleanseth him from his bloud , wherein he lay polluted , his sinnes which cried out so iustly against him , and lay so heauy vpon him , easeth him of all , and writeth in his heart of flesh , his contrite repentant heart , his couenant of mercie and loue , which it so much desired , assuring it , that he is now reconciled with him , and that his sins are cleane forgiuen and forgotten , neuer to be reckoned or remembred more ; and that he hath loued him , and doth loue him in iesus christ , and will neuer put him out of fauour , so long as christ remains in fauour . this is the special administration of the word , and that gift of the spirit , whereby christ is formed in the heart of the poore repentant sinner through faith , by which he is iustified from all his sinnes , and his heart sanctified , and is the second part and finishing of the new birth ; and these are alwayes together in the act of iustification , the word , the spirit , and faith ; so that a sinner cannot be said to be actually iustified , till the couenant of remission of sinnes , which god hath made to the repentant sinner , be applied by the spirit to his broken heart , and that he beleeueth in his heart that his sinnes be forgiuen , and that god loueth him in iesus christ : and this administation of the word , gift of the spirit and faith , are expressed in scripture , and distinguished from all other administrations , of the word , gifts of the spirit , and kinds of faith whatsoeuer , by seuerall distinct names . as first , this administration of the word is called in scripture , the glad tidings of peace and good things , good tidings , the binding vp of the broken heart , libertie to the captiues , the opening of the prison to them that are bound , comfort to the mourners , the reuiuing of the spirits of the humble and contrite , the couenant of the remission of sinnes , the couenant of life and peace , the kingdome of god ; ease , rest to the soule . the word of his grace , the word preaching peace by iesus christ , the word of reconciliation , &c. and it is so called in regard of the great and speciall benefit it bringeth , & doth administer vnto the soule of the repētant sinner , by the applicatiō of the spirit . and for that it is directed of god , and appointed to be preached to such , and to no 〈◊〉 for though the gospell be preached to all , in a generall consideration ( as before is shewed , ) yet ( as it is here intended ) it belongeth to none , nor is to be preached to any but the repentant only . and repentance , though it be a part of the gospel , as it is sometimes in a generall maner proposed , yea the beginning and first principle thereof , and a peculiar gift of the spirit , as before also is noted ; yet ( as it is intended in these seuerall scriptures ) repentance is no part , but onely the preparation thereunto , or the making ready the heart of a sinner for the same ; in which consideration , iohn the baptist , and our sauiour both preached , saying , repent , for the kingdom of god is at hand : where they make repentance to be one thing , and the kingdome of god ( the glad tidings of the gospel ) another ; & require repentance in the first place , as a thing necessary to be effected in them , before they could receiue by faith the glad tidings of the gospell , the kingdome of god , which was at hand to follow after , and to be preached vnto them thereupon . which order was also obserued by the prophets before ; as dauid , to day ( saith he ) if you will heare his voice , harden not your hearts , &c. lest ye enter not into his rest . in which words he declareth plainly to the people , that if they would beleeue the promise of entrance into rest , and so by faith enter thereinto , they should vnharden their hearts , that is to say repent , otherwise there was no possibilitie of beleeuing , of entrance . and secondly , as the speciall administration of the word , which is so peculiar to the repentant , is distinguished from all other common administrations ; so is the spirit , or rather the effect of the spirit , by which this glad tidings of peace is applied vnto , and written in the heart of the repentant , set forth and distinguished also in scripture from other gifts of the spirit , by peculiar and distinct names : as , the baptisme of the holy ghost , the birth of the spirit , the renewing of the holy ghost , the spirit of christ ; the spirit of the sonne , which crieth abba , father ; the spirit of adoption , the spirit of life , the spirit of truth , the comforter , the anointing of the holy ghost , and such like . and it is so called in regard of the speciall effects it worketh in the hearts of the repentant , beyond those that are common to others , as faith , righteousnesse , peace , ioy in the holy ghost , and other vnspeakable comforts and treasures of life . and thirdly , as the word and spirit , so the faith which the spirit causeth in the heart of the repentant ( by the application of the same word of god , and the testification of his loue vnto it ) is also exprest and distinguished from all other kinds of faith , by speciall distinct names : as , the faith of gods elect , the faith of christ , the faith of iesus christ , the effectuall faith , the faith of the sonne of god , the faith of the saints , their most holy faith , their precious faith , the faith which iustifieth , the faith which sanctifieth the heart , the faith of abraham , the faith which worketh by loue , &c. and it is so called , in regard of the special grace , mercie & loue of god in iesus christ , which is shed abroad and sealed ( by the spirit ) in the heart of him that possesseth it ; and also in respect of the excellent fruite it doth produce and cause to come forth of the same heart , which is now truly sanctified by it , and in which ( christ being now formed ) dwelleth : as , mortification to sinne and to this present world ; loue to god , and to christ the lord , who hath so truly loued them ; loue to the truth , loue to the children of god , loue to all men : which fruite we will also search for the true nature of , and enquire how the scriptures doe seuer it from all outward appearances and shewes which come neare vnto it , hauing the forme thereof , but is not the same in truth and power . like as the trees that are planted by the riuer side , do bring forth their fruit in due season ; and as the good ground , which hauing receiued the seed that is sowne therein , bringeth forth fruit , a hundred , sixtie , and thirtie fold ; and as the earth which drinking in the raine that cometh oft vpon it , bringeth forth herbs , meet for him by whom it is dressed : so do these righteous trees and branches of the lords owne planting , his good ground and earth , which he hath thus dressed and watered , bring foorth fruite meete for him their lord , the good husband-man , that hath planted & dressed them . first , as they haue receiued mercie at the hands of god by faith , and are assuredly perswaded in their hearts of the forgiuenesse of their sinnes : so doe they now perfectly and truly , euen from their very hearts , hate all sin , yea and the garment that is defiled therewith , and abstaine from all appearance of euill , mourning and lamenting when at any time they do but think thereon ; and mortifying their members and affections of flesh , do restrain them frō their old accustomed wayes , remēbring that they are washed and redeemed with a great price , euen with the blood of the lamb of god , that they should now be holy , as their heauenly father is holy , that hath chosen them . and though they finde the law of their members to rebel and fight against the law of their minds , enticing them night & day , with strong motions and perswasions to regard and giue entertainment againe to their former lusts and pleasures , yet they remembring the day of their feare and great distresse , sigh and weepe in soule , to thinke that they should yet be constrained by the force of their owne flesh & members thereof to cast but an eye , or once to thinke vpon that which now their soules do loathe , and from which they haue been so graciously deliuered . and therefore remembring lots wife , and the end of those that hauing taken the plough by the hand , looke behind them , by whose examples their lord hath forwarned them , dare not presume to turne aside , and grieue the holy spirit , whereby they are sealed vnto the day of redemption : but if they should ( through the strength of temptation and their owne weaknesse ) fall , they go foorth and weep bitterly , till they be restored by faith to strength againe ; and neuer fall or looke behind them so , as to giue entertainment in soule , to their old delights of sin againe , or to embrace this present world , or pleasures thereof as aforetime : nay , though they be hated , reuiled , and scorned of all men , and made a gazing stocke both to men and angells , yet still they go on their way out of the camp following their lord , and willingly bearing his reproach , counting his rebukes , greater riches then all the pleasures of the egypt of this world , which is now crucified to them , and they to it . and so in patience possesse they their soules , hauing an assured hope , that though now they goe on their way weeping , sowing precious seed , yet there will come a day wherein they shall returne with ioy , reape the fruit of their labours , and bring their sheaues with them . secondly , as they doe hate sin and mortifie the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof , and crucifie vnto themselues this present world and themselues vnto it ; so doe they now , on the contrary part , loue god with all their heart , and with all their soule , and delight in him and in his wayes : and this their loue vnto him is caused by that loue wherewith he first loued them , which he hath shed forth and sealed in their hearts by his holy spirit , and whereof they are now assuredlie perswaded , as it is written , wee loue him , because he loued vs first . and as to be beloued of god , is a blessing beyond all comparison , a treasure not to be vttered , so their loue to him is a fruit , which no man is able to conceiue the nature of , but they alone in whose hearts his loue is first shed forth , and they certainly perswaded thereof . and as they loue god the father , so doe they loue christ his sonne , who hath redeemed them from the thraldome of their sinnes ; and their loue to him is likewise caused , by his loue which was first made knowne to them , and is exprest in this , that while they were his enemies , he died for them , that they should be reconciled to god his father , and be made the sonnes of god by adoption in him . and greater loue then this hath no man , that one should die for his enemies ( and specially such a one ) to bring them to so great honour , therefore their loue to him is also vnspeakeable . and as they loue god the father , and christ the redeemer , so loue they the children of god who are borne of him , and made partakers with them of his grace and loue in christ ; as it is written , he that loueth him that begetteth , loueth him also that is begotten of him . and this their loue vnto the children of god , as it is not now for naturall respects , though in that regard they also loue them , but because they are in grace and loue with god , and do belong to christ , whom they serue and belong vnto : so their loue vnto them is heauenly and spirituall , and such as no man hath , nor can attaine vnto , vnlesse he be borne from aboue of water and the spirit , as they are . for the children of this world who are borne but of flesh , as they know not the children of god ( that are borne & begotten of him ) because they know not him that hath begotten them , nor christ whom they serue and follow : so neither doe , nor can they loue them for his sake , nor haue part and fellowship with them in their spirituall and heauenly communion . they pray together as children of one father the lord of hosts , and praise his name with one accord ; they suffer together as members of one bodie , euen that body whereof christ is the head ; they weepe together , and they reioyce together , and are of like affection one towards another ; and if any of them haue this worlds goods , ( called in scripture the vnrighteous mammon , because of the vnrighteous vse which the louers thereof doe applie them to , ) they ( according to the commandement of their lord , like vnto the vniust steward ) make them friends therewith . if christ hunger , they feed him ; if he thirst , they giue him to drink ; if he be naked , they cloth him ; if he be sicke or in prison , they visit him . and though he himselfe be now in heauen , & they cannot do it to him , neither needeth he as touching his owne person , yet in so much as they do it to his brethren the children of god , they doe it to him , and he and his father both , will be their friends in time of neede , and will receiue them into euerlasting habitation . yea though they haue not the plentie of this worlds goods , but shall out of their pennury cast into this his treasurie , the least mite , or shall giue to eate , to any of the seruants of god , and bretheren of christ , out of their scarsitie , the least portion of bread or oyle , or but a cup of cold water to drinke , because they belong to christ , they shall not lose their reward , but in the day when he shall come in his glory , and all his holy angells with him . and when he shall sit in the throne of his glory , and that all , of all nations shal be gathered before him & called to accompt , he will say vnto them , come yee blessed of my father , inherit the kingdome prepared for you , from the foundation of the world ; for i was an hungry , and yee fed me ; i was a thrist , and ye gaue me drinke ; i was naked , & ye clothed me , &c. and whereas on the other side , he will say vnto all that haue not done any of these things for his sake . go ye cursed into euerlasting fire , prepared for the diuell and his angells ; for i was a hungry , and ye gaue me no meate ; i was a thirst and ye gaue me no drinke ; i was naked , and ye clothed me not , &c. for the loue that is showed to the children of god , the bretheren of christ , because they belong to him . of all the fruits and workes of righteousnes , that can be performed by man , to man , is of greatest esteeme with god , and hath the promise of reward aboue them all , not by reason of any worthines of desert , that is therein , but onely for his promise sake , and because it pleaseth him for his sonne christs sake , so to accept of it and reward it . and therefore for this especially shall all men be called to accompt in the day of iudgement , and iudged according as they haue done , or haue not done the same . and because it is the chiefest fruit , whereby the inward estate of the children of god is knowne and discerned from the children of this world , in whom it is not , but the contrary euills . therefore doth the lord put vs in minde thereof afore hand , because we should now in our life times before that day commeth , learne to know the lord , that we may also know the children of god , and loue them . hereby we know that we are translated from death to life , because we loue the brethren . and hereby we know that we loue the children of god , when we loue god and keepe his commaundements . and last of all this fruit of faith doth extend it selfe to euery man else whatsoeuer , ( onely such excepted ) as doe hate god , and haue blasphemed the holy ghost , whose sinne shall neuer be forgiuen them , neither in this world , nor in the world to come , who may not be prayed for , but are to be held as execrable vnto the day of the lord. they loue ( i say ) all men as brethren , yea euen their enemies , and knowing that they are both , ( as touching nature ) descended of one stocke , and that they themselues were once far off , and strangers from the common-wealth of israell aswell as they , and also that god doth as freely inuite them , and call vpon them to repent and belieue his gospell as he did them . and because no man can tell when , or to whom god will giue repentance and remission of sinnes , therefore they loue them as brethren , and do exhort and beseech them dayly that they would repent and turne vnto god , and humbly confesse their sinnes vnto him , and earnestly seeke and desire grace & mercie at his hands , declaring vnto them what great things he hath done for the redemption of man , and what grace and loue ( they for their parts ) haue already found , who were by sin as far spent as they . though they hate these , yet do they loue them , and pray vnto god for them with many teares . if they hunger fhey feed them , if they thirst they giue them to drinke , if they want clothing , or harbor , or be in any other kind of distresse , they ( according to that portion god hath giuen them , ) minister vnto them . if they curse them , yet they blesse them , if they persecute and kill them , yet still they loue them , and make request to god for them , that he would not lay their sinne to their charge , but forgiue them . this is the perfection which the scriptures speake of , the new commandement , the garment washt white in the bloud of the lambe , the righteousnes of saints , euen that righteousnes which exceedeth the righteousnes of the scribes and pharises ; yea , and the faire pretended righteousnes of all pharisaicall vnregenerate christians , who for a like kind of stricknes , in some such outward obseruations , would faine be counted holy , though their hearts were neuer sanctified : this fruit , i say , doth far surmount their blade also : this is the first resurrection , which the spirit mentioneth , saying , bessed and holy is he which hath part in the first resurrection , on such the second death shall haue no power . these are they that be risen with christ , and seeke those things that are aboue where christ sitteth at the right hand of god , to whom old things are past away , and all things are become new , these are not of the world , neither doe they loue the world , nor the things of the world , but the loue of god the father is in their hearts , and the loue of christ , their conuersation is in heauen , and they minde heauenly things : the lord their god is now their portion , he is their refuge in all times of neede , in all their distresses they flie to him for succour , and from his hands onely do they expect reliefe ; therefore to him onely do they pray as to their god and father , on his name they call , and on no other , earely in the morning , and late in the euening with broaken and contrite hearts , ( the sacrifice which he neuer did despise ) come they before him , and humbling themselues , their soules and bodies at his sootestoole , confesse vnto him their great weaknes , and vnworthines , and knowing they haue no other god or father , in whom they may put their trust , but him alone : therefore in sure consideration of his grace and loue , being confounded in themselues and ashamed , as touching their owne will and workes , and giuing all praise and honour vnto his holy name , they do beseech him , ( though they be not worthy the least of his mercies ) that he would be pleased ( notwithstanding ) to extend his grace and loue vnto them , and poure forth his holy spirit , the ruler and gouernour of his kingdome here on earth , into their hearts , to comfort , sanctifie , and guide them in his truh , that being guided and sanctified thereby , they may euermore doe his will , obey his commandements , and walke before him here on earth , euen as his holy angells and seruants doe in heauen . and acknowledging his goodnes towards them , his prouidence , and care , in feeding and cloathing them , and giuing them all other things which the necessities of this their present life requires ; do request him also , that he would dayly supply and continue the same , with his continuall blessing thereon , receiuing them alwayes with thanksgiuing , knowing that they are all sanctified by his word and prayer . and calling to mind their manifold sinnes and trespasses , which they in their flesh and bodies of death doe dayly commit against him , poure out their soules in teares before him , bewailing their wretchednes and misserie herein , beseeching him for his son iesus christ his sake , through whom they haue now great confidence of his grace , that he would not lay their sinnes to their charge , but forgiue them , hauing also a true testimonie in their consciences ( which they likewise cleere before him ) that they are at peace with all men , and doe forgiue euen their enemies ; and so withall doe earnestly intreate him , that he would vouchsafe them his gracious and fatherly perfection to sustaine and keep them , that no temptation may at any time preuaile against them , to leade , or any way to induce them to commit euill in his sight , but that they may by the power of his grace and holy spirit withstand the same . and so reposing their trust and whole affiance in him , they rest in peace , knowing also , and acknowledging that the kingdome and the power , and the glory is his for euer and euer amen . thus these iust and sanctified seruants of god , goe one from strength to strength , as the prophet speaketh , and from faith to faith , neuer giuing ouer , nor turning backe , nor falling away from the liuing god , like those that haue an euill heart and vnfaithfull , but still step forward , drawing neerer and neerer vnto god , with a true and good heart in the full assurance of faith , vntill they come to see his face in the promised ierusalem . for the iust doe liue by faith , as it is written , for yet a little while , and he that shall come will come , and will not tarry . now the iust shall liue by faith : but if any draw backe , my soule shall haue no pleasure in them . but saith the apostle we are not of them , that draw backe to perdition , but of them that follow faith , vnto the sauing of the soule . in these words , he putteth a plaine difference , & doth distinguish between them , whose hearts being euill , and vnfaithfull , do turne backe to perdition , and them whose hearts are true and iust , and who hauing the full assurance of faith , doe perseuere and continue vnto the saluation of their soules . as if he should haue said : there be some indeed ( whose hearts were neuer sanctified by the faith of gods elect , the faith of abraham ; but onely by a generall kind of faith , their outward parts , their house was a little superficiallie swept , which fall backe to destruction ; ( but we ) meaning himselfe , and such sanctified soules with him , as himselfe was , we are not of that sort , but of another , euen of them which doe beleeue after another maner , who haue the faith of abraham , the faith of gods elect , the effectuall faith , the faith of christ , the faith that worketh by loue , the faith which maketh a sinner iust , the faith by which the iust doe liue , and are saued . which very thing saint iohn also cleereth , speaking of the antichrists , that were gone out from them . they went out from vs ( saith he ) but they were not of vs ; if they had bin of vs , they would no doubt , haue continued with vs ; but they went out from vs , that it might be made manifest , that they were not all of vs. in which words he proueth planly , that if they had euer beene of the faithfull sort , ( namely the sanctified in heart ) whereof iohn was one , they had neuer fallen back , but had ( without all doubt ) continued , but by this their falling off , it was made manifest ( which was not so cleere before ) that they were neuer of them , what outward shewes soeuer they made . the very same ( againe ) is manifest concerning iudas ; for after he had plaid his treacherous part , that he was discouered and burst in peeces , the spirit of god taking notice of his former pretended charitie to the poore , which he vttered in these words . why was not this oyntment sold for three hundred pence , and giuen to the poore ; and of this euill couetuous and theuish heart at the same time , he saith , this he spake , not that he cared for the poore , but because he was a theefe , and had the bag , and bare what was put therein . so that iudas was neuer any of the faithfull , his heart was neuer vpright from the beginning , he belieued not in his heart vnto iustification , he had not the faith of the saints , the faith that worketh by loue , the faith of christ , as christ himselfe testifieth against him , saying , but there are some of you which belieueth not , and iudas was one of them , and the speciall man aimed at , as saint iohn in the next wordes noteth , saying , for iesus knew from the beginning , who they were that belieued not , and who should betray him . and iesus said vnto them , therefore said i vnto you , that no man can come vnto me , except it be giuen him of my father . meaning by comming vnto him , belieuing in him vnto iustification , as he said , come vnto me all ye that are weary and heauy laden , &c. and againe , all that the father giueth me , commeth to me , and him that commeth to me i will in no wise cast out . therefore the text saith . from that time many of his disciples went backe , and walked no more with him . and iudas though he taried after them ( yet a while ) it was but to make vp the full measure of his sinnes ; for his heart was then as euill , if not worse then theirs , as christ testifieth to his face , in the presence and hearing of the other apostles , saying , haue i not chosen you twelue , and one of you is a diuell . this he spake of iudas , and though he be here said among the rest to be chosen , it is to be vnderstood but of his outward office , and in respect of the common guifts of the spirit which he had receiued . and although this was the case of iudas , and of his fellow disciples , who could not relish the words of eternall life , which christ spake , saying , except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his blood , ye haue no life in you : and the case of those antichrists , and of those vnfaithfull euill hearted draw-backs , as it hath been the case of many thousands more , and is still at this day ; yet the case of peter , of iohn , and the rest of the apostles was far otherwise , as is now also the case of all regenerate true hearted christians ; they beleeue to the sauing of the soule ; they eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his blood , spiritually by faith , and haue eternall life abiding in them ; they dwell in christ , and christ in them ; they are borne of god , and therefore draw not backe , sinne not to perdition , for the seed whereby they are begotten remaineth in them , neither can they so sinne , because they are borne of god ; nay , they are sealed ( by the holy spirit of promise ) vnto the day of redemption ; they ouercome the world , endure and keepe his words and works vnto the end ; they are the liuely stones of gods temple , built vpon the chiefe corner stone , who are made a spiritual house , to offer vp spirituall sacrifices acceptable to god by iesus christ ; his church , against which , the gates of hell shall not preuaile ; they are the good ground spoken of , the good trees , which cannot bring forth euill fruit , but good only ; the euill which they doe ( at any time ) is not their fruit , because it proceedeth not from their hearts , but is done vnwillingly , through weaknesse , for in their hearts they serue the law of god. the scriptures account that to be a mans fruite , which cometh from his heart , whether it be good or euill , because thereby the nature of the fountaine ( which is the heart ) is knowne , as the nature of trees are by their fruite . so that the nature of a good man ( i meane that which is borne of the spirit , not his fleshly nature ) is now to bring foorth good fruite only , as christ testifieth , saying , a good man out of the good treasure of his heart , bringeth foorth that which is good . we can do nothing against the truth , saith the apostle . a good tree cannot bring forth euill fruite . and whereas the scriptures speake so often after this maner : if ye hold fast vuto the end . if ye continue . him that ouercometh , and keepeth my words , and works to the end : then are ye his house , then will he approue of ye , then shall ye be saued . and on the contrary , he that looketh behind him ; he that endureth not ; if any draw backe , or fall away , &c. he is not meete for the kingdome of god ; my soule shall haue no pleasure in him ; there remaines no more sacrifice for sin . the drift of the spirit of god is to informe vs of the different estates and conditions of christians ; of the danger of the one estate , and of the well being and safetie of the other ; that so we seeing the difference , and being forewarned thereof , might not depend vpon that which is so dangerous , but striue vnto that , wherein there is safetie . and where it saith of some , let them be blotted out of the booke of the liuing . i will put his name out of the booke of life . the meaning is not , that god will put any mans name out of the booke of life , that is written therein , but his meaning is , that such desperate and wicked persons , as blaspheme his truth and spirit , shall be set down as it were with a blot , cursed , vtterly excluded , and pronounced against , for such as there is no hope , or place for repentance , as was iudas and others of his companions , of whom it was foresaid : let them be blotted out of the booke of the liuing ; let them not be written with the righteous , &c. for they persecue him whom thou hast smitten , they talke to the griefe of those whom thou hast chosen . so that whereas men may seeme to haue a place among the saints in the church of god , and to be in as good an estate as they , by reason of some gifts of the spirit , which they may receiue , and some alteration the word of god may worke in them ; yet ) being neuer sanctified in heart , by the faith of the sonne of god ) in time they discouer themselues to be in heart euill , and aduersaries to the truth , and such as god doth by his word exclude and pronouuce cursed children , twice dead , and pluckt vp by the rootes , such as neuer had nor shall haue their names written with his people , in his records of life , which before their discouerie might seeme both to themselues and to others , to haue ; and therefore it is said , and from him that hath not , shall be taken away , euen that which he seemeth to haue ; which seemeth also to be an improper speech : for how can that which a man hath not , be said to be taken from him . he had something , may some say ; and it is true , he had heard and receiued the word with ioy , but not in deepenesse of root , not in a good heart , his heart was neuer sanctified by faith , like vnto his , that brought forth fruit , he was enlightned , and had tasted of the good word of god , and of the powers of the world to come ; but he seemed and made shew to haue more , he presumed ( no doubt ) that his name was written in the booke of life , which was more then that he had receiued could warrant him . this his pretended shew is now also taken from him , and his name is ( openly ) by the iust sentence of gods word , put out of all hope , of being , or euer to be written in the book of life , and he is now ( like the earth , which bringeth forth nothing but briars and thornes ) neere vnto cursing ; it is impossible he should now be renewed . for nothing is secret ( saith the text ) that shall not be made manifest , nor any thing hid , that shall not be knowne , and come to light ; therefore ( saith he ) take heed how ye heare . for whosoeuer hath , to him shall be giuen , and he shall haue abundance ; and whosoeuer hath not , from him shall be taken away , euen that which he seemeth to haue . but what is the booke of life ; for peraduenture it is a secret to some ? doubtlesse , it is both gods secret , and reuealed decree or will , concerning such as shal be saued ; by that which is reuealed , the secret is made knowne . his secret decree , we haue in the first beginning of our writing shewed , ( which briefly is this : ) that god ( before the world was ) foreseeing the fall of mankind , did chuse in christ a certaine number of them to life and saluation , which were all foreseen and knowne of him , and recorded by his decree , in the roule of christ , before they were ; his reuealed will or decree , ( which we haue before also at large exprest ) is ( briefly this ) namely , the speciall promises and testimonies of life and saluation , which are most fully and often recorded , ●nd testified in the scriptures of god , to , and concerning such persons , in such maner qualified , as we haue before ( according to the scriptures ) described . so that euery man so qualified , may see and know , through the spirit of god , in and by the same records , his name , to wit , his person , soule and body , decreed and recorded of god in christ , euen from the foundation of the world , to be for life and saluation . this is the booke of life of the lamb slaine , for in him it was and is done , and of this decree there is no alteration . and whereas it seemeth to some , that god doth alter his purpose , and change his word , because he sometimes promiseth blessings and life to men , which ( by reason they , on their parts , do not that which he requireth ) he performeth not ; and likewise threatneth iudgement , which by reason men repent , he executeth not . the truth is , it doth but so seem to ignorant men , who doe not rightly conceiue of the power of god , nor vnderstand the drift and scope of his word . for god is not like vnto men , to purpose one thing to day , and resolue vpon another to morrow ; but whatsoeuer he hath decreed in his heart , shall surely come to passe , though he sometimes vse to speake after the maner of men , because he knoweth they are but men whom he speaketh vnto . he publisheth his gospell to all men in generall , and doth promise saluation to all men that repent and beleeue , and he requireth repentance and faith of all , yet ( notwithstanding ) but few do repent and beleeue , and so come to saluation ; doth god therefore alter his purpose , and change his word ? he also gaue a law to all men before , and required obedience thereunto , promising life likewise to all that obeyed it , but no man euer kept it , and liued thereby ; did god therefore alter his purpose and change his word ? nay , god did neuer purpose in his heart , nor promise , that any man should here ( in the flesh ) keepe his law and liue by it , though the familists say he did ; neither was it giuen to that end , though they affirme it was . for if it had bene so , god would neuer haue giuen the other ; nay he knew , such was mans miserable condition by his fall , and the fiery sharpnes of that law against him , that it was so farre impossible for him to keepe the same , and liue thereby , as that it vtterly slue him , and kept him off . therefore god hauing decreed in his heart to saue some , was pleased to giue the other : if he had not done so , but should haue proceeded against all , for the breach of the first , should he haue done any man wrong ? nay , who dare say so ? and is he now vniust in publishing his gospell to all , because he saueth not all ? or darest thou say , he altereth his purpose , and changeth his word ; nay , let god be true and vnchangeable , and all men liers and moueable . men are as backward and vnwilling , and haue as little power or strength in themselues to obey the gospell , as they had to keepe the law ; nay , such is yet ( naturally ) the pride and loftinesse of mans heart ( as lamentable experience hath long proued , ) that he rather desireth to remaine vnder the rule and command of the law , and so seeke life by the works thereof , then to subiect his soule to the rule and commandements of the gospell , ( viz. ) to repent of his sinnes from the bottome of his heart , and seeke life by faith in the free grace of god in iesus christ , and follow christ in the regeneration . but so it is , i say , that before the world was , god did purpose and decree in himselfe , to saue ( by the gospell of his sonne iesus christ ) a seed , a remnant , of the foreseene fallen posteritie of mankind , which seed he reserued from the beginning , & cōprehended them in the promise , which he first made to adam , ( saying ) the seed of the woman shal breake the serpents head . christ being the principall , and they in him and of him , and seuereth them with him , from the seed of the serpent , in these words , and i will put enmitie betweene thee and the woman , and betweene thy seed and her seed . and afterwards againe , to abraham in these words , in thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed . meaning by thy seed , christ , and by the nations , those children which god made abraham the father of : as he said , i haue made thee a father of many nations ; euen they that were to haue the faith of abraham , the seed that were to beleeue in that one seed christ . and again in these words , in isaac shall thy seed be called . by all which it is euident , that as christ was promised , and seuered from the seed of the serpent ; so all the seed ( betweene whom , and the seed of the serpent , there was to be enmitie ) were also promised , as gods free people , meerly giuen of him to life , and seuered by him also from them : and as isaac was borne by promise , so are they . at this time will i come ( saith god ) and sara shall haue a sonne . so saint paul saith , now we ( brethren ) as isaac was , are the children of promise . and that these children of the promise ( onely ) are the children of god , and counted for the seed , the same apostle also in another place witnesseth , in these words , they which are the children of the flesh , are not the children of god ; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed . and they are called the children of god , because also they are borne of god , and adopted through the spirit of his son : and therefore god is not ashamed to be called their god , ( as he said to abraham , i will he thy god , and the god of thy seed ) for be hath prepared for them a citie . now this seed , as god foreknew them all , and had chosen them in christ frō the beginning , and predestinated them to be conformed to his image and likenesse , who are therefore said to be written in the lambs book of life , from the foundation of the world . and as he seuered them by promise from the seed of the serpent : so from time to time , hee calleth them , and whom he calleth , hee iustifieth , and whom he iustifieth , them also he glorifieth . he hath not done these things to all . the seed of the serpent neuer had any of these priuiledges , god neuer chose them in christ , nor predestinated them to be conformed to his image , neither were they euer written in the lambs booke of life from the foundation of the world ; neither did god euer promise to call , iustifie , and glorifie them , or any of them : therefore god neuer altered his purpose , nor changed his word or promise , as some ignorantly imagine ; but there hath been euer enmitie betweene the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman , euen from the dayes of cain and abel to this present , and shall be to the end , according to the word of the lord ; though they be inlightned , and taste as much of the good word of god , as either cain or the iewes did . god vseth threatnings ( oft times ) to bring that seed ( which he promised to call ) to repentance , he giueth them repentance , he promiseth grace to the repentant , in a speciall particular maner , he giueth them faith also to receiue it ; he promiseth likewise saluation ( absolutely ) to these beleeuers ; he admonisheth them , because they ( of themselues ) are apt to fall , yea and would fall and perish , if they stood by their owne strength , if god did not sustaine them , and had not ordered and disposed of all things for their safetie and wel being ; he commandeth them to watch and to pray , and he giueth them his spirit , which helpeth their infirmities , without the which they know not what to aske , and it maketh request vnto god for them with sighs and grones which cannot be exprest ; not because they may yet perish , but because they should not perish , and for that they are weake and apt to fall , and grieue the spirit . he also chasteneth them , not for their hurt , nor in his wrath , but that they should not be condemned with the world . and because god hath appointed them to be holy , and so , to saluation ; therefore he hath appointed all these things . for as he ( before the world was ) purposed to saue them , so likewise did he determine of the way and meanes whereby to saue them , and the meanes is as certaine as his decree . and gods promises concerning life eternal ( to speake properly ) are not vpon any conditions , though he doth seeme so to propose them to the world , but they are absolutely free , without any condition of our parts . it is true , god will saue none , but such as repent and beleeue his gospell , bring forth fruite , endure to the end , &c. yet these are not conditions , for god giueth all these things to his elect , as freely as he gaue christ vn-them , he conformeth them hereby to the image of christ ; else , grace and saluation were of due debt , by desert , which to teach , is erroneous and antichristian . and although god did elect men in christ from the foundation of the world , yet did not the elect fall from their election in the fall of adam , neither did adam himselfe lose his election by his fall , ( as they would infer thereupon ▪ ) for gods election was not of man , considered in his innocencie , but of men , 〈◊〉 foreseene fallen ; and therefore they are said to be chosen in christ , who was to be a reconciler and mediator for sinners , and not for innocent persons . so that the obiection of them , which say , if the elect cannot fall out of gods fauour , then did not all fall in adam ; if the elect cannot fall from their election , then haue not all sinned ; is very carnall and wicked , much like vnto that of the saduces , which said , whose wife shall she be in the resurrection , who like fooles , knew not that in the resurrection , they neither marry , nor giue in marraige : so they being ignorant of the wisedome and foreknowledge of god , giue out , if the elect cannot fall from their election , then haue not all sinned : and are as bould , and thinke themselues aswell armed hereby against the certainty and continuance of gods election , as the saduces thought themselues against the resurrection , when they came in scorne thereof to pose christ . but i omit their friuolous obiections , as not hauing any collour of reason , because also we shall haue occasion to cleere those things hereafter . thus as we haue said , god first publisheth his gospell , and all doe enioy some benefit thereby , many are inlightned by it , and are made partakers of some common gifts of the spirit , but few are made partakers of those which are speciall , and peculiar . and this is the order which god doth vse for the calling , sanctifying , and sauing of his elect : first , after they are inlightned to know his truth , he calleth them in a speciall maner to repentance ; then in the second place by a more excellent gift of the spirit , he iustifieth the repentant soule from his sinnes , and sanctifieth his heart ; and then thirdly , they being now ingrafted into christ their head , doe bring forth fruit in him , as before we haue described . and these are the plantation of god , the trees of righteousnes which the scriptures speak of . god is the husbandman , and this is the maner of his husbandry : and thus hath he seuered and distinguished his plants , from all carnal vnregenerate christians , vnder what name or title soeuer they passe , or in what outward estate or church soeuer they liue . and blessed is that man that hath part with them in those speciall gifts and treasures of life , for on such the second death shall haue no power . thus haue we proued that whosoeuer , is borne from aboue of water and the spirit , iustified by faith in christ , whose names are written in the booke of life frō the foundation of the world , shall neuer fall away , nor haue their names razed out of the booke of life againe . and that god doth neuer alter his purpose or promise , but that all his decrees and promises shall surely come to passe . their fift point . that there is no originall sinne , but that all children of all maner of people in the world , as well heathens , infidels , idolaters , worshippers of diuels , all kind of blasphemers , fornicators , & vncleane persons whatsoeuer , ( as of the faithfull ) are free from all pollution of sinne , both in the conception and birth ; and dying before they commit actuall sinnes , are saued . answ . the truth is , ( though to our shame and sorrow it may be spoken ) that sin hath taken hold of all the whole posterity of mankind , and all are corrupted by a perpetuall seed of generation orignially from adam , so that euery child of man , that is borne of flesh , as well of the faithfull , as of the vnfaithfull , is by nature , the child of pollution and wrath , and dying vnregenerate , perrisheth from the glory of god , and from the ioy of his presence for euermore . this we neede not now to stand to argue ( for besides the manifold testimonies of gods word which testifie against vs , long and lamentable experence hath sufficiently proued it , ) and doth dayly proue it vnto vs ; so that we haue more need to mourne for our selues in regard of the euill that is sowne in our natures thereby , and to weepe for our children also , which are bred and borne of vs ( as christ charged the daughters of ierusalem to doe for themselues , and for their children ) then to stand to dispute the points , or once to question , whether it be so or no. neuertheles to stop the mouthes of such as doe deny it , we say , that when adam sinned , all sinned together with him , because all mankind were then in him ; and therefore when god cast adam out of paridice , he cast all his posteritie out of paracice with him ; and when god cursed the earth , he cursed it not to his person alone , but all that were to come of him , as well yong as old ; which proueth , that as the curse and punishment for the sinne ; so the sinne it selfe claue vnto them , and continueth from generation to generation in them ; else the manifold misseries which were vpon children ( as well as vpon men of yeares ) were vniust . why should god shut them out of paradice , and not restore them thither againe , so soone as they were borne , there to haue the same free liberty to eate of the tree of life , as adam had before he fell ? why should god exact at their hands , first so soone as they haue any capacitie , the perfect righteousnesse of the law , vpon paine of death ( as ye confesse ) if they had eaten with adam , of the tree of knowledge of good and euill ? why should that fiery two edged sword be set to keepe from them also the way of the tree of life ? and why are they subiect to all the calamities that came vpon the earth , by the sin of adam if they fell not with him ? why should god consume them all with their parents , in the dayes of noah , by the floud , some in the wombe , some in the birth , and some newly borne , if they had beene cleane from all pollutions of sinne ? would not god haue spared them , and the world for their sakes ? and why did god then destroy the cities of sodome and gomorha , and not spare them as he promised abraham to doe , if he found ten righteous their ? if children be free from all pollution of sinne , they are not vnrighteous and wicked ; and if they may be called holy , they may be called righteous : else were your children vncleane , ( saith paul ) but now are they holy . as also , if vnclean , then polluted , as were the children of the sodomites ( doubtlesse ) aboue all the cities of the world . and so did god ( the iudge of all the world ) doe right , in rooting out that wicked generation , as he did also the other of the old world . when adam fell , he did not only commit a fault , but by the same his fault , he not only brought vpon himselfe death and wrath , but fell into a gulfe of pollution and wickednesse , both soule and bodie . nay , when he receiued grace , it did not rid and free him of that naturall corruption , whereinto the whole man was plunged , insomuch as he could not increase and multiply , but all the increase that came of him , must necessarily be of the same nature that he was , both bodies and spirits . for to what did god say , increase and multiply , and replemish the earth &c : was it to a senceles body , not hauing the breath of life , or was it to the whole man in whom god had breathed the breath of life , who was thereby made a liuing soule ? it is true , the spirit is from heauen , of god that gaue it , and therefore ( especially ) is adam called , the son of god : and all mankind are said to be the ofspring of god ; not that god doth breath in euery perticular child of man , in the wombe , the breath of life immediately from himselfe , in the same maner as he did vnto adam . nay he did it then once for all , insomuch as if god had executed his iustice on adam , immediately vpon his transgression , we all had beene hid and had perisht in him both spirits and bodies ; whereas he being spared brought forth and replenisht the earth , else man were inferior to all creatures . we reade that god created euery thing to haue seede in it selfe , according to his kind , and all creatures do ( we see ) produce and bring forth their like , by the word and prouidence of god , when god said , bring forth , he gaue power by the same his word , to the creatures he had made ( through the meanes he had ordained ) to doe their office he had set them in . euery tree hath it seed in it selfe , the seed being sowne in the earth , increaseth to roote , and then to branches , and afterward bringeth forth fruit , or seed againe , nothing differing from the seed that was first sowne . and as an euill tree bringeth forth seed as euill as it selfe ; so doth man beget and bring forth as euill and corrupt as himselfe . for so saith iob , for how can a cleane thing come out of that which is vncleane ? and dauid saith of himselfe , that he was shaped in iniquitie , and in sinne his mother conceiued him . if the fountaine from whence dauid came , was vncleane , how could he be cleane ? that which moued dauid to call this to minde , was not so much any thing concerning his mother , as himselfe ; the apprehension of his owne present sinne he was faln into , which he was now lamenting and confessing before god , vrged him to call to mind his first beginning , and in his confession to charge himselfe with sin , euen from the time that his mother first conceiued him , and confesseth the same also to his owne shame and confusion , thereby to cut off all good opinion of himselfe , as touching his originall first estate , which he had by his naturall conception and first birth , the more to confirme vnto his soule the necessitie of the second new-birth from aboue . for he knew that adam by his sinne had not only polluted himselfe in soule and bodie , and was fallen from his first integritie of nature and blessed estate he was in , but that the same euill seed ( which then was sowne in the heart of adam ) hath brought forth so great increase , that it hath polluted and made vncleane the hearts and natures of all that come of him . as also another testifieth , saying , the graine of euill seed was sowne in the heart of adam from the beginning , and how much vngodlinesse hath it brought vp vnto this time ? and how much shall it yet bring forth vntill the time of threshing come ? ponder now with thy selfe , how great fruit of wickednesse , the graine of euill seed hath brought forth ; and when the eares shall be cut downe , how great a floore shall they fill ? in which words this holy prophet plainly sheweth , that their first graine , namely , the sin which was first sowne in adams heart , was , and is , the original root and first ground of all sin , that hath sprung vp & shall spring vp in the hearts of all his posteritie to the worlds end , and so of all their misery ; and therefore he saith againe , oh thou adam , what hast thou done ? for though it was thou that hast sinned , thou art not falne alone , but we all that come of thee . the very same also doth saint paul affirme , ( hauing spoken , and being speaking of the reconciliation , grace , and life eternall , which is by the death and life of christ onely attainable ) wherefore saith he , as by one man sin entred into the world , and death by sin , and so death passed vpon all men , in whom all men haue sinned , and so forward , setting it downe , not as a thing in question , but as wel known , shewing that as by one , euen adam , sinne entred into the hearts of all men , and death is passed vpon them , for that all ( by that meanes ) haue sinned : so grace and life , is by one , euen christ , and none shall liue , but by him . and that not any one man whatsoeuer , old or yong , male or female , shall euer enter into life , except he be changed from that he is by nature , by a heauenly power of grace through the spirit ; christ himselfe fully ratifieth and confirmeth , saying , verily i say vnto thee , except a man be borne againe , he cannot see the kingdom of god. and againe the second time , verily , verily , i say vnto thee , except a man be borne of water and the spirit , he cannot enter into the kingdome of god. meaning by a man , euery child of man , ( without exception ) of what age or sex soeuer , if he be one conceiued and borne of flesh , he must be borne againe of water and of the spirit , or else he cannot be saued . meaning by water , a heauenly power , whereby the heart , which is naturally ( euen from the birth ) hard and stubburne , being seasoned with adams sinne , euen from the conception , is dissolued and made meeke and tender as water ; and by the spirit , a heauenly gift of the holy ghost , which comforteth his tender heart , and brings vnto it from god ( in and through christ ) peace and ioy vnspeakable ; and that children are capable of this , in and from the womb , let the babe which sprang in his mothers wombe for ioy , giue testimonie . and if any shall say , christ doth not call a child ( new borne ) a man ; let him reade these words of christ : a woman when she trauaileth hath sorrow because her houre is nigh ; but as soone as she is deliuered of the child , she remembreth no more the paine , for ioy that a man is borne into the world . if children dying before they commit actuall sinne are saued , because they haue no originall pollution of sinne , ( as these silly men say ; ) then christ died not for children , neither was he promised vnto them , nor yet are they saued by him , but by their owne innocencie ; and so this promise , the seed of the woman shall bruise the serpents head , belonged only to adam and euah , and not to any of their children , because they were to be borne all innocents , without sinne . these , with many other absurdities will follow from this their doctrine . but it is an error , as their other points are ; and therefore error must needs be the consequence of it . if one should aske these men , at what age a child may commit an actuall sinne , whereby it doth lose it innocencie and perfection of nature ; and then at what age it is capable of the new birth ; and also why the lust or thought of euill in the heart , as well as an act of euill , may not take their innocencie and vertue of nature from them . it is much to be maruelled , what answers they would make . but to leaue them to better conderations , hoping they will now see their folly , and learne to be wiser for time to come . their sixt point . that none ought to be baptized but such men and women of yeares onely , as haue attained to true repentance and iustifying faith , being both in the account of the church and in the sight of god regenerate persons : and that the baptisme of children vsed , is no baptisme at all , but is the marke of the beast spoken of in reuelat. 13. answ . the doctrine of the church of god , is , that not only such men and women ( of yeares ) as haue true repentance and iustifying faith , but that all which do beleeue iesus to be the christ , and acknowledge him , submitting themselues to be informed and guided by his word and gospell , may be baptized , though as yet they neither haue true repentance nor iustifying faith ; and that the children of all such may be baptized . that such as haue true repentance & iustifying faith may be baptized , it is granted of all men ( without any further consideration ) to be past all question ; but it is euident there may be such , who yet ( notwithstanding ) may not lawfully be baptized . cornelius , lydia , and the eunuch , were true worshippers of god , as the spirit testifieth of them , and therefore had both true repentance & iustifying faith before they knew christ to be come in the flesh , yet these might not be baptized till they did know and acknowledge christ to be come in the flesh , and that iesus christ was he : but christ being manifested vnto them , the scriptures concerning him being vnfolded , and god opening their hearts to attend vnto the same , and they beleeuing the truth thereof , were baptized , being now ( of all other ) the meetest persons therefore . for we are to know , that when christ came into the world , he found the people in seuerall conditions ; some ( though but few ) very true israelites , who had both repentance and iustifying faith before christ , as touching his personall appearing in the flesh , was known vnto them as simeon , nathaniel , those before named and others ; for the same way to saluation that is now , was euer , euen from the dayes of abell , and shall be to the end ; as repentance from dead workes , and faith towards god &c. and some poore repentant sinners and these were few also ; which had not yet iustifying faith , but onely trauelling vnder the burthen of their sins , did much desire to be releiued . such were those poore , which are spoken of , the bruised and heauy laden , sicke , lost , dead , &c. and others were they , that had neither repentance , nor faith , as the multitudes of the iewes , and of the whole world : and to these seuerall sorts of people , the gospell was preached in seuerall maners . to the first sort , that christ was now come , euen the messenger of the couenant , whom they desired in their hearts to see and heare , as one that did spiritually dwell in their hearts already , these , beleeuing , were baptized . to the second was preached , that christ is come , and also that the glad tidings of peace , and reconciliation with god , in him , did belong to them , in particular , and therefore christ calleth these , particularly , saying , come vnto me all ye &c. againe , the sonne of man is come to seeke and saue that which is lost , &c. the poore haue the gospell preached vnto them : and these beleeuing and acknowledging christ , were baptized . and to the other third sort , christ was not to be preached in any such special peculiar manner , as to the former , but more generally , as namely , that christ is come in the flesh &c : and that repentance and remission of sinnes is granted in his name ; so that whosoeuer doth repent and beleeue the gospell , shal be saued . now they that did beleeue , and accknowledge the truth of these things ; as iudas , the many disciples mentioned in the fourth and sixt of iohn , the thornie and stony ground , simon magus , with many others , were , and might lawfully be baptized , though they had not yet true repentance , nor iustifying faith . nay it is manifest that neither christ , nor his apostles , did reiect any from the outward baptisme , for the want thereof , so as they did beleeue , and outwardly submit themselues , to the doctrine of the gospell . yet neuertheles , christ did not , neither did his holy apostles , therevpon iustifie them ; for then neither he , nor they , would ( so soone after ) haue made such exceptions , and write so suspitiously as they did of many of them ; saying , striue to enter in at the straight gate ; for many i say vnto you , will seek to enter in , and shall not be able . beware of false prophets , which come to you in sheepes cloathing , but inwardly they are rauening wolues . euery tree that bringeth not foorth good fruit , is hewen downe , and cast into the fire . not euery one that saith vnto me , lord , lord , shall enter into the kingdome of heauen , but he that doth the will of my father which is in heauen . many will say vnto me in that day , lord , lord , haue we not prophesied in thy name , and in thy name cast out diuells , and in thy name done many great workes ; and then will i professe vnto them , i neuer knew you , depart from me yee that worke iniquity . except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his bloud , ye haue no life in you . but there are some of you that beleeue not . all these things christ spake vnto his disciples , who though they did beleeue , & were baptized , yet they had not ( al of them ) eaten of his flesh , and drunke of his bloud ; all did not beleeue in him vnto iustification of life , all brought not forth good fruit ; and therefore he saith , no man can come vnto me except it be giuen him of my father . and euery branch that beareth not fruit in me , he taketh away ; and euery branch that beareth fruit , he purgeth it , that it may bring forth more fruite . so that men may beleeue after a generall maner , and be baptized , and be ( in some sort ) branches in the vine , in regard of the outward profession thereof , receiue great gifts , doe wonderfull workes , in the name of christ , and yet not be come to christ , not haue the faith of christ , which iustifieth , not beare fruit in him . and it will come to passe , that in the day of iudgement , he will say vnto them , depart from me yee that worke iniquity , i neuer know yee . and the apostles ( also ) writing to the churches of their times ; where all were beleeuers , and baptized , ( and that lawfully ) say , that ( such among them ) as had not the spirit of christ , were none of his ; and doe charge some of them to be carnall and contentious , striuing about their outward baptisme , some will be of paul , some of cephas , some of apollo , and some of christ . as if this baptisme , and the worthinesse of the person , by whom they were baptized , did make them happy , and some of them , better then other . some againe there were , that did set light by the apostles of christ , & esteemed better of some other false apostles ; some were vncleane lasciuious persons , i feare ( saith paul to some ) that when i come , i shall not find you such as i would , and that i shall be found vnto you such as you would not . examine your selues ( saith he ) whether ye be in the faith , proue your selues , know ye not your owne selues , that iesus christ is in you , except ye be reprobates . by which it is euident , that men may beleeue , and be baptized , and yet not be in the faith of christ , not know christ to be in them , which ( to know ) is the faith that christians must haue , if they be not reprobates . againe , some they charged with the want of the knowledge of god ; and some that denied the resurrection of the dead ; and some that made their belly their god , and minded earthly things ; some to be false apostles , false teachers , such as taught heresies , some false brethren ; some couetous persons , some hipocrites ; some that raised needlesse questions about the law ; some that taught circumcision necessary to saluation , and that christians must be circumcised , or they could not be saued ; some were whisperers , backbiters ; some were louers of pleasures , more then louers of god , treacherous , high minded , yea , and what not ; and yet all beleeuers , and lawfully baptized , and were in the churches , euen in the apostles times , but not so approued of them , as some others were ; they did not account of all whom they baptized , to haue true repentance , and iustifying faith , neither before they baptized them , nor after , for they knew , that it neuer was , nor could be so , some would proue false in heart , and in some the grace of god did not yet appeare , vnto iustification ; therefore they sensured none , till they saw iust cause , neither did they iustifie any , till they saw proofe of their faith , but then they did , to both their comforts and consolations nay , when they saw great cause of feare and suspition of many , yet they vsed strong arguments and perswasions to bring them to repentance , as we see how they both spake , and write . they did not easily reiect any , no not an hereticke , without twise or thrise admonition ; and when simon magus discouered himselfe , to be in the gall of bitternes , and that peter saw his heart was not right in the sight of god , yet peter cast him not off , but said vnto him , repent thy selfe therefore of thy wickednes , and pray god , if perhaps the thoughts of thine heart may be forgiuen thee . now if this was the estate of the church in the dayes of christ and his apostles , how may we thinke it can be better now ( nay ) but whē we striue to make it better we make it worse . as concerning the inward estate , the gifts of the spirit , and power , that then were in the apostles and faithfull seruants of christ , both in the respect of the administration of the word , grace of life and peace , and workes of righteonsnes , i am sure we all come short of : and shall we thinke to outstrip them in the outward ? nay , doubtles , i would we could ( therein ) but compare with them , so we did also pertake of some of their inward graces ; otherwise the outward can doe vs small pleasure . it is an euident signe , that where there is much contending about the outward forme , externall washings , and such like , the inward purification of the heart is little thought of . so then , as concerning the outward estate of the church , we conclude , that as from the beginning there was cain , a beleeuer and sacrificer , as was abel , though abel had iustifying faith , and not cain ; and as ishmael was circumcised as well as isaac , though ishmael might not inherite the heauenly promises as well as isaac ; and as in the church of the iewes from time to time , all that acknowledge that true god and his word , and did submit themselues to the outward ordinances of the law , were circumcised , and were iewes outwardly , though but few were iewes inwardly , and circumcised in heart : so was it in the dayes of christ and his apostles , so is it now , and so shall it be to the end ; christ himselfe went neuer about to alter this , but both he and his apostles baptized those that did beleeue , and acknowledge him , and submit themselues to be informed by his word , though they had not yet either true repentance , or iustifying faith . for they knew , that such a beliefe and profession , as made men meet for outward baptisme , might be , where iustifying faith was not ; and that both , that beliefe , profession , and baptisme , did but make a christian outwardly , as the outward profession and circumcision of the iewes did but make a iew outwardly ; and no better did they iudge , or conclude of any , but when they saw better cause . now concerning the baptizing of children , ( which they say is no baptisme at all , but do call it the marke of the beast , ) we affirme that the children of all such beleeuers ( as may themselues be baptized ) may also be baptized , and that it is not , nor can be the marke of the beast spoken of , but is true outward baptisme . first , to auoid many of their vaine and idle obiections , and that we may come the more cleerer to the point , let vs remember that it is sufficiently proued already , that all haue sinned in adam , and that death is passed on all , for that all haue sinned in him , being polluted from their very conceptions ; and that ( therefore ) there is a necessitie of a new birth from aboue , of water and of the spirit , as wel to the yongest man of dayes or houres , as to the eldest man of yeares . so that whosoeuer is borne of the flesh , he must be borne again , from aboue of the spirit , either sooner or later , if he be saued ; and that , although repentance and faith be the parts of this new birth , and that repentance hath these parts ( whereby it is exprest in men of yeares , ) sorrow for sinne , confession of sinne , and desire of pardon , ( as we haue before defined ; ) and that iustifying faith ( which is the other part of this new birth ) be an assurance or full perswasion wrought in the repentant heart by the spirit , of the forgiuenesse of his sinnes and reconciliation with god in iesus christ , as we haue also defined it ; i say , in men of yeares , who also do confesse with the mouth , as it is written , with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse , and with the mouth confession is made vnto saluation ; yet ( neuerthelesse ) the true nature of both these parts of the new birth , may be in another maner defined , and still remaine the same in substance , as the first part is called in scripture , a heart of flesh , an humble and contrite heart , a broken heart ; and saint paul calleth it , the fleshly tables of the heart ; in which regard it is called , the baptisme of water , and the birth of water ; which we define thus , namely , that it is a speciall effect or working of the holy ghost , whereby the heart ( which is naturally hard and stubburne , euen from the birth ) is made soft and tender as water , or as flesh is in comparison of a stone , that so it may receiue the impression of the grace and loue of god. the second part , which is called the baptisme of the holy ghost and the birth of the spirit , we define , to be a speciall gift of the spirit also , but more excellent , which writeth and sealeth in the soft and tender heart of flesh , grace and peace from god in christ , and filleth it with heauenly comfort and ioy , like vnto that which is said of iohn ( being in his mothers womb ) when the voice of the salutation of mary sounded in the eares of elizabeth , the babe leaped in her womb for ioy ; which ( doubtlesse ) was caused by the spirit of christ , in the soule of the child . now in this sort , children are capable of both the parts , and so of the whole new birth , which in them is no other in nature , but the very same which is in men of yeares , ( though it be not outwardly so exprest , ) as we may perceiue by the words of paul to the faithfull of the church of corinth : forasmuch ( saith he ) as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of christ , ministred by vs , written not with inke , but with the spirit of the liuing god ; not in tables of stone , but in the fleshly tables of the heart . for as the law of death was written in tables of stone , and all the hard and stonie hearts of the whole posteritie of adam , not onely might , but also did , and doe receiue , euen in their very conceptions , a deepe impression thereof : so on the contrary , the law of the spirit of life , which is in christ iesus , euer was , is , and is to be , written in hearts of flesh , soft and tender hearts , and in no other . and therefore it was , that god did promise to take away from his elect the hard and stonie heart , and to giue them a heart of flesh , an humble and broken heart , because his pleasure and promise is , to dwell with such , to reuiue and comfort them , and no other . and to speake plainly ( howsoeuer perhaps some doe otherwise conceiue ) it is not our act of beleeuing that doth iustifie vs , but it is the free gift of grace , sealed in our hearts by the spirit of christ , whereby god iustifieth vs ; which grace and spirit , is the cause of our act of beleeuing , or faith , by which we are so often said in scripture , to be iustified , where the effect is named for the cause , by reason it is thereby made apparent vnto vs ; as also ( in another sense ) we are said to be iustified by works , because works do demonstrate and make manifest our faith to others , as it is said of the primitiue church of rome , that their faith had shined throughout the world , meaning by works , which are the effects of faith . so that saint paul calleth the faithfull the epistle of christ , not so much for their act of beleeuing , as in respect of the grace of god , which was written in their hearts by the spirit of christ , by which they did now beleeue , and crie abba , father , as it is written , he hath sent forth the spirit of his son into our hearts , which crieth abba , father . and for this cause , the grace of the gospell is called , the law of the spirit of life which is in christ iesus . these things being so , what should now let , that children may not be baptized . are they capable ( as we see ) of regeneration , and are they not capable of the signe thereof ? may their hearts be sanctified by the spirit of christ , and may not the filth of their flesh be washed off with water ? for the baptisme of water , is bnt the doing away of the filth of the flesh , as saint peter speaketh ; euen as outward circumcision was but the cutting off the fore-skin of the flesh , representing the cutting off the sinnes of the flesh , the circumcision of the heart , as also baptisme doth . for the circumcision , which was the cutting off part of the fore-skin of the flesh ; and that baptisme , or washing away the filth of the flesh ; we doe not say , that the one was a type of the other , but were both types of one truth , ( namely ) the baptisme or purification of the heart by faith . so then , if they both aimed at one thing or end , ( as shall appeare they did ; ) then it will euidently appeare also , that by vertue of what precept the one was practised , by vertue of the same precept the other is to be performed and practised . it is also said , that whosoeuer did omit the practise which that precept required , was to be cut off from among the people , that is to say , that such a person ought not to be acknowledged as one in the outward estate of the church then vnder the law : so proportionably it will follow , that what person soeuer , yong or old , that is not baptized , he is also to be cut off , ( that is ) not to be accounted or numbred , in the outward estate of christians , now vnder the gospell . may such beleeuers , as are not sanctified in heart , be baptized , ( as before is proued ) and may not the children of beleeuers be baptized ? why are the children of beleeuers said to be holy ? ( the children of vnbeleeuers throwout the whole scriptures are neuer said to be holy ) doubtlesse it is because they are in heart holy ; or else because they being the children of the faithfull , haue some promise ( as touching the inheritance of life belonging to them ) as the children of the faithfull had formerly ; and so haue right to enter into the congregation , where the wayes of life are taught , as they then by circumcision , so these now by baptisme , that they may be informed in the wayes of the lord ; else would there be no difference , betweene the children of the faithfull , and the children of infidels . so that , to this end , is the vnbeleeuing husband said , to be sanctified to the beleeuing wife , and beleeuing wife to the vnbeleeuing husband ; because otherwise , if the vnbeleeuer ( in this regard ) were not sanctified to the beleeuer , then were their children vncleane ( that is to say ) as the children of infidels , that haue no promise belonging to them , but rather a curse , and therefore are vncleane , and may not enter . it is therefore meete , seeing god hath put difference betweene the children of the faithfull , and the children of infidels , that they should be distinguished from them , by some outward signe , concerning the same . and what can they haue lesse then baptisme , which can giue to no man any more , then the outward name of a christian , as circumcision did the outward name of a iew. it doth neither confer , nor confirme grace to the heart of any , no more then circumcision did . it proueth that a man is a christian outwardly , and it teacheth that he should be so inwardly ; and so did circumcision . it proue a man to be a iew outwardly , and it taught that he should be a iew inwardly ; yea a christian inwardly , to speake fully as the truth is ; for euery true inward iew , was a true inward christian . and to be circumcised in heart , was to be baptized or purified in heart , by faith through the spirit ; as also to be baptized in heart , ( by faith through the spirit ) is to be circumcised in heart ; for so doth saint paul in plaine words affirme , writing to those christians , whose hearts were sanctified by faith , saying , and ye are compleate in him which is the head of all principalities and powers , in whom also yee are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands , in putting off the body of the sinnes of the flesh , by the circumcision of christ , buried with him in baptisme , wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of god , who hath raised him vp from the dead . in which words ( i say ) he setteth downe expresly , that the baptisme which saueth , the baptisme whereby we put on christ , the baptisme whereby our hearts are purged and sanctified , and the sinnes of our flesh done away , whereby we are buried with christ , and doe rise with him , euen that which is through the faith and operation of the spirit , is one and the same , with the circumcision of the heart , which he therefore calleth , the circumcision made without hands , the circumcision of christ , whereby also it appeareth clearely , and beyond all contradiction , that the circumcision , or the cutting off the foreskin of the flesh , was a signe and true representation of the doing away of their sinnes , of the clensing of the heart by faith ( as now the doing away of the filth of the flesh with the baptisme of water is ; ) for which vse and end , it was also giuen to abraham at the first , as this apostle also declareth in an other place , saying , and he receiued the signe of circumcision , a seale of the righteousnes of the faith which he had , being vncircumcised , that he might be the father of all them that beleeued , though they be not circumcised , that righteousnes might be imputed to them also . where he ( i say ) fully declareth , that the circumcision of the flesh was giuen , not to that end and purpose , as the carnall corrupt iews imagined , to teach righteousnes to be by the law ( which was to make the promise voide , which is to be attained onely by faith , and not by workes ) but is taught and directed to the righteousnes which is by faith , through the promise in the circumcision of the heart , which abraham had , and which all their seed ( of whom god made him the father ) were to haue ; and that the circumcision of the flesh was a signe of , and did teach the circumcision of the heart ( if any yet question it ) the same apostles words , ( a little before ) proueth it , where he saith , for he is not a iew which is one outwardly , neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh , but he is a iew which is one within , and the circumcision is of the heart in the spirit , not in letter ; whose praise is not of men , but of god. where we see , that there was a iew outwardly , and a iew inwardly ; a circumcision outward in the flesh , and a circumcision inward of the heart , in the spirit . the outward had but the name , and did onely signifie and teach what should be inwardly in the heart ; and that in the heart , was the thing it selfe . all these things being now thus cleere , we reason thus . that if children might once receiue the signe of circumcision of the heart , after the old forme of the law , then may they now after the new forme of the gospell . but they might once , after the old forme of the law. therefore also now , after the new forme of the gospell . that they might once after the old forme , is past all question . and that they may now after the new forme , we proue thus . that which was once for good ends in the time of the law appointed , and is not by the gospell disanulled , it is lawfull still . but it was appointed for good ends , that children should receiue the signe of the circumcision of the heart ; and it is not by the gospell any way disanulled . therefore it is lawfull now still . but these men obiect and say , that there is no plaine commandement , nor example , in the new testament for baptising of children . i answere , it saith oft times , that whole housholds were baptized , without any exception of children ; and we haue small reason to thinke , that beleeuers should be barren more then others . the naming of whole housholds without any exception , sheweth plainely , that the spirit of truth neuer intended to exclude children . if he had euer intended any such thing , then ( doubtles ) would he haue giuen some little touch , or tittle , to that purpose , which he hath neuer done . and to set downe in plaine words ( particularly ) that children were or might be baptized , there was then no neede , because there were none in those dayes that questioned it , as there might well , and would ( doubtlesse ) haue beene , if the apostles had not baptized any , but refused them . if it might be concluded that there were no children in those mentioned families , as we haue small reason to thinke , that christians beleeuers , should be more barren then infidells , ( yet ) no doubt , in all the apostles times , some children were offered ( as we see some were brought to christ , and not refused of him ) which if the apostles had once reiected , the iewes ( especially ) would haue taken exception against them ( as well they might ) and haue enquired what should be the reason thereof ; and also haue demanded , why children might not aswell be baptized , as before they were circumcised . and the apostles would haue giuen them answere , and so by that meanes your question had beene dissolued long agoe . but because there were not then , in their dayes any such questioners , nor any cause of any such question , by them giuen : therefore they tooke no care , either to set downe in particular , that children were , or might be baptized , nor yet to shew any one the least exception against it ▪ for they knew it was not a matter of such consequence , as you imagine . if they had either seene or foreseene any such dangerous euill , as you conceiue , you see in it , as that it was or would be the marke of the beast , which the spirit speaketh of , they would certainly haue foretold and forewarned the church of it ( as they haue done of other things , which in your sight is of lesse moment , ) that so either it might not haue taken such great place as it hath , or else ( at least ) that the people of god might ( without so great difficultie ) haue seene what a dangerous euill it was , or would come to , and with constancie and comfort haue auoided and withstood it ; but they being guided by the holy ghost , haue done whatsoeuer was needfull . againe , if there must needs be a plaine word , either by some precept or example , exprest , for the proofe of whatsoeuer may be practised among christians ; then where finde we any where written , that women ( in particular ) may partake in the sacrament of the supper , though ( doubtlesse ) it may be soundly prooued by argument from scripture , that women may partake therein , as we haue already proued children may be baptized . if i should now demand of you your warrant , for a man to baptize himselfe ; i much maruell where you would finde such a practise in all the new testament of christ ; i am sure it would be a taske too hard for you to find . well , to let passe those things , we will now go on . when the apostle peter spake of the baptisme which saueth , lest any should mistake him what baptisme he meant , he saith , not the doing away of the filth of the flesh . so if any of the apostles or pen-men of the scriptures ▪ when they did set downe that whole housholds were baptized , or at any other time , had but said , except yong children , it had been enough . and if they had so said , what occasion might the iewes haue taken , to except and obiect against it . might they not haue reasoned against it thus : doth christ the messenger of the couenant of peace , and preacher of good tidings , deale more hardly now ( in this time of the plentie of grace ) then he did before in the time of the law ? might children then be admitted by circumcision into the congregation of the lord , and may they not now by baptisme ? they were formerly called iewes , and counted of the seed of abraham , in whom a blessing by promise was to be expected , as namely , that god would call a seed , out of that stocke or seed , which should inherite his couenant , whereof circumcision was a signe vnto them ; and may they not now be allowed the name of a christian through baptisme ? they are the same that they were then , and why should not christ ( in whom the blessing and promise resteth ) be the same ? thus they might haue argued , if it had been so , if the case were now so altered , as touching children ; if christ were not the same , that he then was : but it is otherwise , and christ is the same , yea ( and in regard of the large bountie and plentie of grace , which he hath now vouchsafed ) he is more then the same ; therefore let not children be denied that which belongeth vnto them . christ was much displeased with those disciples that rebuked them that brought little children vnto him , that he should touch them , and said , suffer little children to come vnto me , and forbid them not , for of such is the kingdome of god. verily i say vnto you , whosoeuer shall not receiue the kingdome of god as a little child , he shall not enter therein . and ( the text saith ) he tooke them vp in his armes , and layd his hands vpon them , and blessed them . whence it is euident , that little children ought by no meanes to be denied baptisme , because they are such true similitudes of regeneration , of which baptisme is a signe ; and seeing ( also ) christ maketh it an argument against those that would haue hindered them to be brought vnto him , saying , for of such is the kingdome of god : so that it may be as rightly said , suffer little children to come to baptisme , and forbid them not , for of such is the kingdome of god ; of such as be conuerted and are become like vnto little children , doth the church of god consist . whereas they further affirme , that infants baptisme is the marke of the beast , and so must be cast away , with euery part thereof ; because whosoeuer dieth with that marke on them ( without repentance ) shall certainly drinke of the cup of gods wrath . which marke of the beast , is thus deciphered by them : all maner of ordinances which are performed by the ministery of the church of england ( being an antichristian ministery , whereof infants baptisme is one ) are none of gods ordinances , but a marke of the beast . from which obserue what will follow against themselues . euery action which is performed by the ministery of the church of england , is a marke of the beast . but the mariage of the anabaptists in the church of england , is an action performed by the ministery of the church of england . therefore the mariage of the anabaptists in the church of england , is a marke of the beast . whosoeuer do retain the marke of the beast , shall certainly drinke of the cup of gods wrath . but whatsoeuer anabaptist do retaine the mariage of the church of england , do retaine the marke of the beast . therefore whatsoeuer anabaptist do retaine the mariage of the church of england , shall certainly drinke of the cup of gods wrath . euery mariage which is marke of the beast , must be made void , to auoid the wrath of god. but euery mariage of the anabaptists in the church of england , before their schisme from it , is a mark of the beast . therefore euery mariage of the anabaptists in the church of england , before their schisme from it , must be made void , to auoid the wrath of god. which being true , then cease they to be maried , as children to be baptized . that the baptisme of children , neither is , nor can be the mark of the beast , spoken of in reuel . 13. 16. these men might easily perceiue ( if they were not altogether ignorant and destitute of vnderstanding ) what the nature of that marke is . for the marke of the beast there spoken of , is such a thing ( indeed ) as yong children are not capable of ; and therefore they are not set downe among those that are said to receiue the same . and hee causeth all , both small and great , rich and poore , free and bond to receiue a marke in their right hand , or in their forehead ▪ meaning by small and great , such as are so , in regard of . their high and low places and callings in the world : and by rich and poore , such as are rich or poore , in regard of the plenty or scarcitie of the riches and things of this world and present life : and by free and bond , they that are at libertie and free , and they that be in bondage or captiuitie , in regard of any captiuitie or seruitude to men . hee doth not say , yong and old , which ( if yong children had been included amongst them ) he should haue said , because they are all so distinctly and seuerally named that doe receiue it . besides , the marke of the beast being such a thing as it is , ( namely ) a voluntary submission and resolute purpose to do and subscribe to all the lawes and commandements of the beast , whether secretly or openly ; and to declare and testifie themselues to be such as are allied vnto him , both by word and deed . and thus ( hauing also made cleere this point ) we end , hoping that the things which are spoken , will giue to those that are not wilfull and obstinate , but of a meeke and lowly heart , full satisfaction . their seuenth point . that church of england is a false antichristian church , and ought to be seperated from . that it is false , and antichristian , we proue thus . that the church whose bishop and ministers , haue had their first ordination from the false antichristian church of rome , whereof antichrist is the head , is false and antichristian . but the church of england , her bishops , and ministers , haue had their first ordination from the false antichristian church of rome , whereof antichrist is the head . therefore the church of england , is a false antichristian church . that it ought therefore to be seperated from , we proue thus . if euery false antichristian church ought to be seperated from , then the church of england ought to be seperated from , because she is false and antichristian , as before is proued . but euery false and antichristian church , ought to be seperated from , as reu. 18. 4. come out of her my people . &c. therefore the church of england ought to be seperated from . we answere . the first proposition of this argument is false . a church whose bishops & ministers haue had their first ordination ( outward ) from the false antichristian church of rome , whereof antichrist is head , may yet ( notwithstanding ) be a true church , and they true bishops and ministers , and not antichristian . it is not the outward ordination , which a bishop or minister hath ( before his conuersion ) receiued of a false antichristan church , that can either pollute him ( benow conuerted , and called of god ) or make the church to which he ministreth , false or antichristian : neither is it the bare outward ordination receiued of the best church that euer was in the world , and in the best outward forme that is , that can make either him that receiueth it , a true faithfull minister of god , or the church to which he ministreth , a true church of christ ; but he may be , both a false teacher , an antichrist , and his church false and antichristian , notwithstanding . those false teachers and antichrists , that were in the apostles times , had ( no doubt ) their first ordination from the true church of god , in as good an outward forme , as any is , or can be ; and that church or people , that were led by them , could not chuse but be vnsound . the scriptures ( foretelling of false prophets , false teachers , antichrists , and of the great antichrist which should arise , describeth them to rise , not from among the heathen or iewes ( as some imagine the great antichrist shall ) but in , and out of the church of god , euen of and from among those that should succeed the apostles and elders of the churches ( which the apostles did plant ) succeed ( i say ) as touching the outward ordination in the externall offices and places of them . saint paul being neere his departure from his labors , to the lord , calling the elders of the church of ephesus together , forewarned them , saying , and now behold i know , that yee all amongst whom i haue gone preaching the kingdome of god , shall see my face no more ; wherefore i take you to record this day , that i am pure from the bloud of all men , for i haue kept nothing backe , but haue declared vnto you all the counsell of god : take heed therefore vnto yourselues , and to the flocke , whereof the holy ghost hath made you ouerseers , to feede the church of god , which he hath purchased with his owne bloud . for i know this ▪ that after my departing shall grieuous wolues enter in among you , not sparing the flock . moreouer of your owne selues shall men arise , speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them . therefore watch and remember . these were such as the holy ghost had made ouerseers ; so that their outward calling , ordination , and succession , could not be excepted against ; and yet we see what paul foretells , and forewarnes them of . againe , saint iohn speaking of antichrists , that rose in his time , saith , they went out from vs &c. and christ himselfe foretelling of the abhomination of desolation , which should be set vp by the great antichrist , saith , that it shall stand in the holy place , where it ought not , when yee therefore shall see the abhomination of desolation , spoken of by daniel the prophet , stand in the holy place , meaning by the holy place , the church of god , the place where god dwelleth , and is worshipped , as saint paul declareth , saying , let no man deceiue you by any meanes ; for that day shall not come , except there be a departing first , and that the man of sinne be reuealed , the sonne of perdition , who opposeth and exalteth himselfe aboue all that is called god , or that is worshipped ; so that he as god , sitteth in the temple of god , shewing himselfe that he is god. according as the prophet had spoken of him long before , prophesying also of his destruction , saying . how art thou falne from heauen , o lucifer , sonne of the morning , how art thou cut downe to the ground , thou that didst weaken the nations , and saidst in thine heart i will ascend into heauen , i will exalt my throne aboue the starres of god , i will sit also vpon the mount , euen the holy mount , of the congregation ( of god ) in the sides of the north , i will ascend aboue the height of the clouds , i will be like the most high . so that the great antichrist was to sit , and doth sit , euen in the church , in the temple of god , in the place where ( indeed ) he ought not to sit . if then all these things be so , as these scriptures doe declare . if it be not the outward calling , ordination , or succession in the offices and places of the true elders and ministers of god , in the outward state of the church of god , that can either make them true faithfull ministers of god , such as come by the doore , as christ speaketh ; or the church , of which they are ouerseers and ministers , the true holy church of christ : but that these elders and ministers may yet neuerthelesse proue false prophets , false teachers , grieuous rauening wolues in sheepes cloathing , antichrists &c. and the churches be corrupted by them , robd , and deuoured , both outwardly and inwardly , and become euen heathenish and antichristian . and that these deceiuers shall rise in the church of god , and be such as haue had their outward ordination and succession , from hand to hand ( as it were ) euen from the apostles . and that the great antichrist himselfe shall sit in the holy place , in the temple of god , vpon the holy mount of the congregation of god , aboue and besides the starres of god. what reason haue we then to thinke , i say ( this being so ) that the outward calling , or ordination , which the elders , and ministers of the church of england receiued ( at first ) from the church of rome , should make either them , or the church false and antichristian ? it was not the outward ordination , or succession in the offices , and place of the elders , that did corrupt any of them before mentioned . ( nay ) the bishop of rome himselfe , might haue beene bishop of rome long enough , to this day , to the day of christs comming in the cloudes of heauen , and haue done his master christ good seruice , if he had kept the first faith , if he had liued the first life , if he had successed the apostles and elders , ( in faith , in doctrine , in exhortation , in patience , in temperance , in meekenesse , in mortification , in loue , in good workes , in feeding the flock of christ , and giuing them their meate in due season ) as he did succeed them in outward place ; he had then beene a scribe well taught in the kingdome of god ; a faithfull bishop , an elder worthy of double honour , and happy had that flock beene of which he had beene an ouerseer , and his master at his comming would haue said , blessed be this seruant . but seeing he failed in all these things , and did not succeed his elders in this way , and order of succession , ( as all their true successors to this day haue euer done ) seeing his heart was euill and vnfaithfull , ambitious , couetous , and loued pleasures and voluptuousnesse more then god ; and said in his heart , my master will deferre his coming , and therefore take vpon him to smite his fellowes , to eate and drinke with the drunken ; his lord will come in a day which he thinketh not on , and in an houre that he is not aware of , and will hew him in peeces , and giue him his portion with the hypocrites ; and vnhappie is the flock that hath him for their shepherd . the church of rome was once a glorious church , not in regard of any such pomp and princely state as she that now is , sits in , which ( poore virgin ) she was neuer acquainted with , but in respect of the light and brightnesse of her faith , as saint paul testifieth , which ( by reason of the fruite it did effect and bring forth in her ) shined , and made her face to shine throughout the world . she was a sister and daughter of that woman which iohn saw so wonderfully and heauenly deckt and adorned , and which he describeth , saying , and there appeared a great wonder in heauen , a woman clothed with the sunne , and the moone vnder her feete , and vpon her head a crowne of twelue starres : that is to say , she had put on christ , he dwelt in her heart by faith , she was clothed with him , his righteousnesse couered her nakednesse and all her defects , and made her beautifull within and without ; she had the earth , and all earthly glorie , vnder her feete , as transitorie and vaine ; she was mortified to sinne , and to the pleasures thereof ; and her soules delight was with her lord in heauen , where he was ascended , and yet remaineth ; and her crowne of state , which she had on her head in those days , was the lambs twelue apostles , whose doctrine and example of walking , were her guide and patterne ; and who , as they had receiued of the lamb the word of god , so they left it with her , to be her light and leader in the desart , when her publique guides should faile her , of which word of truth ( not so much the letter , as the spirituall true intent thereof ) she and her children ( her true successors ) haue been the sustainers and pillars of , to this day . this was once ( of a truth ) the estate of the church of rome , as also of other churches elsewhere , but ( alas ) it lasted but a while , it fared with her as with the rest : for by the bloody persecution of the great red dragon , her outward beautie was defaced ; she was dispersed , and forced to flie with them into the wildernesse ; and then ( after a while ) when the storme of persecution was ouer , and that a calme began to be settled , so as she began to conceiue some hope of recouering her first estate , heresies sprang vp , and were maintained with great force , on the one side , and carnall securitie grew on the other ; and that iniquitie might be increased , according as the lord had foretold , the loue of many waxed cold . the mystery of iniquitie , which began to worke in the apostles times ( they being departed ) took now faster footing , according to their words , and stroue daily to perfection ; and at last , he that letted , was taken away , and the man of sinne ( antichrist ) was reuealed , and set vp in the throne of the dragon ; and the dragons religion was by him and his , so commanded , and commixt with the external profession of the name and religion of christ , as that no man could partake of the better , but he must partake of the worse . for after that the bishop of rome had obtained at the dragons hāds , that his church should be the mother of all other churches , and that all must crouch and bend to her , and that he became lord and master of all ; then did he ( among the rest of his requitals ) entertaine and command such part of the dragons religion and church-seruice , as might giue him the best content , and most aduance his owne temporall state of glorie . so that hauing once obtained the dragons seate , and that all his heads , hils and hornes were his , he thought he might now do what he list , fell to desolating of the true worship of god , and to consuming of the saints of the most high ( the remnant of the true spouse , the children of the woman , before described , ) and pulled downe the daily and spirituall sacrifice , which they ( the spirituall house of god ) offered vp acceptable to him by iesus christ , cast the truth to the ground , as the prophet had foretold of him , brought in and set vp the abhominable and most execrable religion of the heathen , compounding it , and dignifying the parts , practise , and practisers of it ( the more to delude the world ) with the names and titles of god , christ , holy spirit , the word of god , his holy church , his worship , seruice , his holy sacraments , and saints . and that he might haue all in obedience , made such lawes , by the aduice of his priuie councell , that whosoeuer would not worship the beast and this image of the beast ( the idols and abhominations of the heathen and pagans ) should by the executioners of his will , be taken and killed . and because he would be sure to know his own , and to find out all that would not submit , caused all , both small and great , rich and poore , free and bond , to receiue a marke in his right hand or in his forehead ; and that no man might buy or sell , saue he that had the marke , &c. now when once things were come to this passe , it was no longer time ( for any soule that would be saued ) to stay ; and for this cause it was , that christ commandeth , saying , come out of her my people , that ye be not partaker of her sinnes , and that ye receive not of her plagues : for her sins haue reached vnto heauen , and god hath remembred her iniquities . and these were the very reasons , why at the first the church of england separated from her , and also why so many of other nations did forsake her . when wickliffe , husse , tindal , luther , cranmer , latimer , and others , forsooke the church of rome , and came out of her , they stood not to make question about their outward calling or ordination they had receiued before of the church of rome ; but god hauing called them now , by a more speciall heauenly calling , to preach his truth , they staid not for , neither did they look after another ; nay , if they had , the truth might haue lien hid , & we might haue sat in darknesse vntill this day ; but they finding the approbation of god and his people , it was enough . let me aske ? if god should vouchsafe to call the bishop of rome , the pope that now is , and that he should forsake all those abhominations , which he now liueth in , and become such a scribe , bishop , or elder , as ( before ) we haue described ; who would condemne him , or call him antichrist , for that he was once the pope of rome , though he had neuer other outward ordination , more then the approbation of god and his people , or who would call the people that should imbrace him , antichristians ? doubtlesse , not any of the children of wisdome . agiane , presuppose that the state of all europe were now as it hath beene heretofore , all vnder antichrist and his church ; and that god should call one of the bishops of that church out from them , and in due him with the knowledge of his truth , by his word & spirit ▪ and that there be a necessitie as thou saist , that he must haue another outward ordination , before he can minister the word of god vnto any people , so as to be a bishop or elder vnto them ; whither wouldest thou haue him to goe for it , or where wilt thou finde an eldership to ordaine him ? in europe there be none , all are antichristians . wilt thou haue apostles againe , to lay a new foundation , and must they ordaine new elders before their can be a true constituted church with her offices and ordinances , as thou termest them ? is this thy iudgement ? it may be , if it be not ; nay , it must be , if thou hold thee to thy former ; it hath beene the opinion of some of thy predecessors , that held themselues as wise as thy selfe whatsoeuer thou art , as for instance , there were ( among others ) three brethren , ancient separatists from the church of england , liuing sometimes in the cittie of london , their names were legat , these held it stifly , that their must be new apostles , before their could be a true constituted church , and they drew it from this their ground , the one was called walter legat , who about twenty yeares since was drowned , being with one of his brethren washing himselfe in a riuer , called the old foord ; another of them called thomas legat , died in newgate about sixteene yeares since , being laid there for the heresie of arius ; the third called bartholomew legat , was burnt in smithfield about ten yeares since , being condemned for the same heresie of arius , for they all held , and stood stoutly for the same also . these legats had a conceit , that their name did ( as it were ) foreshew and entitle them , to be the new apostles , that must doe this new worke ; but you see what became of them . there was also one iohn wilkinson , another ancient stout separatist , who with diuers that followed him , held the same likewise , drawing it from the same ground , as a necessary consequence thereof , who also came to naught . but if there be any yet that will needs haue new apostles , as no doubt there be ; for their carnall contentions worke still to that point ; then let me aske thee , whence must they come ? who shall send them ? christ is ascended , and he doth not now appeare to call , and send any , as he did the apostle paul ; and apostles must be such as come from the presence of the lord ▪ and haue seene him ; for which cause saint paul saith in the defence of his apostleship , haue not i seene the lord ? &c. and he that was to be in iudas his roome , must be one that had bin conuersant with the apostles the time of christs being then on earth , an eye witnes to publish that which he saw and beleeued . so that apostles thou canst not vpon any good ground expect . if thou saist , the church may ordaine n●● elders . i aske , whence came that church ? who plant 〈◊〉 first ? can there be an orchard of fruitfull trees , and was there not a husbandman that planted it ? can faith be without preaching ? or can there be a church without faith ? if thou hast found a true church , find but out him that planted it , that first preached the word of god vnto it , whereby it beleeued , and became his church , thou hast found an elder , feare it not ; thou needest not make further enquiry from whence he came , or who ordained him ; he could not doe such a worke , except god sent him , though he came from rome . if thou saist , euangelists may preach the gospell to the people , and ordaine elders , as timothy and titus did . it is true ; but where be they who shall ordaine such , and send them to doe this ? apostles we haue none . if thou saist , disciples may preach , as the seuentie did &c. i aske still , who made those disciples ? didst thou euer know a field beare good wheate , that was neuer sowne ? if thou hast found good disciples , doubtles , there was one or other that did first informe them . so that thou mayst see , thou art still in the same case thou wert in , and that of necessitie it will follow , that if there can be no true church , till there be a new outward ordination , then there will neuer be a true church . wherefore we conclude , against thee , and against all that are of thy iudgement ; that as you erre greatly in all your former points , so in this : and as many of the former do agree with the ancient errors of the antichristian church of rome ; so doth this ; for they deny gods predestination , and election of some particular persons in christ , to grace and life , from the foundation of the world , and so doe you ; they teach free will , and falling away from the best grace , and that the certaintie of mans saluation doth depend vpon his acts of faith , obedience , and continuing therein , and so doe you ; they teach that outward ordination and succession doth make , constitute , and proue a true church , and so say you in part , if not in the whole . that whereas you charge others to be of antichrist and his church , it is euident , you are more neerely allied to her , by these deceitfull doctrines of hers , then they can be , with the things ye charge them with ; nay , they may notwithstanding be free from her , when you shall by this meanes be found children of her . if outward ordination and succession in that kind , doe make , constitute , or be an argument sufficient to to proue a true church , a church wherein christ dwelleth , against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile , to which christ hath giuen the keyes of the kingdome of heauen , and power to bind and to loose , to remit and to retaine sins , which is the pillar and ground of truth , which hath the spirit of truth , which christ promised to be with vnto the end of the world ; and that wheresoeuer two or three of them should be gathered together in my name , he would be in the middest ; ( for all these treasures , and many more do belong to the true church , which is the body and spouse of christ ; ) then the chuch of rome hath as good ground for the proofe , and confirmation of her selfe , to be the same true church , as any church else whatsoeuer ; nay , better ground then any other can shew . and therefore her children ( which stands for her , and doe pleade her cause ) take this to be , and doe vse it as the strongest and most inuinciblest argument they haue to proue their church to be the onely true church , this day extant ; and that all churches and christians , ought therefore to come vnder her gouernment , to be taught and nurtured by her , to submit to her counsels , ordinances , canons , decrees , doctrines of faith , rules for manners , ceremonies , censures , and whatsoeuer she shall impose , because what such a church ( which hath those forenamed priuiledges ) shall agree vpon , teach or command , is truth , and may not be questioned or opposed , and therefore it is said , for it seemed good vnto the holy ghost and to vs. but we vtterly deny any such ordination or succession , to make , constiture , or to be an argument sufficient to proue such a true church ; and affirme , that a church may be false and antichristian , notwithstanding the same . for although there be such an ordination and succession , a church , against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile , as the lord himselfe declareth , saying , and vpon this rocke will i build my church , and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it ; to which all those former priuiledges do belong , and are to continue with vnto the end of the world ; yet we denie that kinde of ordination and succession to be it , or to haue any of those priuiledges belonging thereunto , but that it may be ( notwithstanding ) an vtter aduersary to the true succession , and to all those her treasures ; which wee proue thus : that kind of ordination and succession , which haue opposed the word and truth of god , that haue persecuted and murdered his seruants ( from time to time ) for the preaching and maintaining of the same truth and word of god , is not ( nor can be ) that ordination and succession , or church , against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile , nor to which any of those treasures do belong , but may be an aduersary both to it & them . but the outward ordination and succession in the roomes , publique offices and seates of the true elders and priests of god , ( which is the best ordination and succession , the church of rome that now is , hath , or can pleade for her selfe , and which the separations doe contend for ) haue opposed the word and truth of god , haue persecuted and killed the seruants of god , which preached and maintained the same his word and truth , and for the same cause . therefore the outward ordination and succession , in the roomes , publique offices and seates of the true elders and priests of god , is not ( nor can be ) that ordination and succession , or church , against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile , or to which , any of her priuiledges do belong , but may be an vtter aduersary both to her and them . and that such an ordination and succession , as the church of rome and our separatists pleadeth and contendeth for , haue done , and may doe all these euils against the truth and true seruants of god , is euident by those priests , elders and scribes of the church of the iewes , who had their outward ordination and succession from the former elders and priests , yea from moses and aaron , and sate in their seates , and supplied their places , and yet ( neuerthelesse ) were the great opopposers of gods word and truth , and the persecuters and murderers of the prophets and righteous men of god , which preached the same his word and truth from time to time , as christ himselfe often affirmeth to their faces , and foretelleth them in a parable , that they would be the betrayers and murderers of him also , which shortly after came to passe . and the church of rome ( for her part ) hath shewed herselfe in enmitie to the truth , and bloody proceedings against the maintainers thereof , ( for aboue a thousand yeares ) not onely to equall , but to out-strip ierusalem , and to be euen the perfection and full accomplishment ( as it were ) of all abhominations & cruelties , against the truth of god and his church , according as christ ( by the ministery of his angell vnto his seruant iohn ) testifieth , where he calleth he , the mother of harlots and the abhominations of the earth ; and foresheweth how drunke she would be with the blood of the saints , and with the martyrs of iesus . and as he laid to the charge of the scribes and pharisees of his time , the blood of the righteous that had been slaine , from abel to zecharias ; so he chargeth these with the blood of all that euer ( for the truth ) should be slaine vpon the earth , and with his owne blood also , because they and those that crucified him , are all of one house and generation , euen from cain to this day , being the right and true successors of one another in euill . so that their maine argument of succession , in the roomes & chaires of the righteous seruants of god , auaileth them nothing to the purpose they aime at , seeing this , not only may be , but is their condition notwithstanding . for , as they were not of abrahams seed , which came of abraham after the flesh , nor they ( all ) israel , that came of israel ; and as that was not circumcision , which was outward in the flesh ; nor that baptisme , which washeth away but the filth of the flesh : so neither is that the true heauenly and spirituall succession , which is outward , by an externall ordination and succession in the roomes and seates of the righteous seruants of god ; but the true and heauenly succession ( which haue all those heauenly treasures belonging to it ) is that which christ hath built vpon the rocke , are they that haue the faith of peter , of iohn , and the rest of the apostles , euen those liuely stones , which saint peter speaketh of , who are by faith built vpon christ the chiefe corner stone , like as peter was , and so are made a spirituall house by this meanes , and do offer vp spirituall sacrifices acceptable to god by iesus christ , and are that chosen generation , that royal priesthood , holy nation , and peculiar people , which he describeth , who haue receiued spirituall gifts from aboue , as saint paul testifieth , saying , wherefore he saith when he ascended vp on high , he led captiuitie captiue , and gaue gifts to men . according as saint iames saith , euery good and perfect gift is from abou● ; and cometh downe from the father of lights , with whom there is no variablenesse nor shadow of turning . that as they only are the seed and children of abraham , that haue the faith and works of abraham ; and as the circumcision of the heart , is the true circumcision ; and as to haue the heart sanctified by faith through the spirit , is to be baptized with the baptisme which saueth , to put on christ by baptisme , and to be a true christian : so likewise , to be a true pastor or elder , is to enter●●in by the doore first , euen through christ , by faith ; for he is the doore & the way , whereby euery true pastor must enter , and to be called and ordained of god , by those heauenly gifts of christ , whereby they are made able ministers of the new testament ; and then in the second place , to be approued and iustified of his church and children of wisedome . for the calling of a true minister of god , and that which maketh him so to be , is as heauenly and spirituall as that which maketh a true christian ; else euery true christian had a greater priuiledge then euery true minister of christ , which ( doubtlesse ) is not so , but rather euery true minister hath a greater ; yea such are the gifts of the spirit , which christ since his ascension hath giuen to his church , for the administration of the gospel of peace , that whereas he gaue this testimonie of iohn , that in regard of the gifts of the spirit , which were giuen him for the administration of repentance , a greater prophet then iohn , was neuer ( before him ) borne of women , yet neuerthelesse he saith , that he which is least in the kingdome of heauen , is greater then he ; meaning the least true minister of the gospell , the word of reconciliation . and if yet they alledge for their separation , as their maner is to doe , that in the church of england there be many very superstitiously minded , many vngodly , proud , couetous and vnclean persons , both in the publique office of the ministery , as also of the people , who do partake as well in the sacrament of the supper , as in the administration of the word : let them remember what hath been manifested before , as touching the estate of the churches in the apostles times , how that there were then in the churches , false apostles , false teachers , deceiuers , some that preached christ through enuie , some that had eyes full of adulterie , and that could not cease from sinne ; some that made merchandize of the people ; some who went to law one with annother , and that amongst the infidels ; couetous , wicked , proud , lasciuious persons , which had not repented of their wickednes ; some that made their belly their god , whose glory was their shame , who minded earthly things ; and some , that at the sacrament of the supper were drunken , and despised the poore ; these and diuers other euills were in the churches , and yet no separation to be made from any of them , onely the apostles , sharply reproued those deceiuers , as euill doers , and warned the people with teares to take heed of them , and of their euills , and to shun them . againe , there were some that with conscience of the very idols of the heathen , did eate things in sacrifice to the idoll , as saint paul affirmeth , saying , for some with conscience vnto the idoll vnto this houre , eate it as a thing offered vnto an idoll . declaring vnto them , that the things which the gentiles sacrificed , they sacrificed to deuills , and not to god , and said , i will not that you should haue fellowship with diuells , yee cannot drinke of the cup of the lord , and of the cup of the deuills ; yee cannot be partaker of the lords table , and the table of deuills . do yee prouoke the lord , &c. and by this it appeareth , they came also to the lords table , though as saint paul told them , they could not truly and spiritually partake thereof , so long as they did partake of the other . yea it is euident , that these corinthians were much adicted to their old heathenish superstitions ; for saint paul in his next epistle doth againe call vpon them , saying , be not vnequally yoked with infidels , for what fellowship hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnes & what communion hath light with darknes , and what concord hath christ with beliall , and what part hath he that beleeueth with an infidell , and what agreement hath the temple of god with idolls ? for yee are the temple of the liuing god , as god hath said , i will dwell in them , and walke in them ▪ and will be their god , and they shall be my people ; wherefore come out from among them , and be ye separate from them , and touch not the vncleane thing , and i will receiue you , and will be a father vnto you , and yee shall be my sonnes and daughters , saith the lord almighty . here we see by the plain commandement of god , & exhortation of saint paul , that a separation ought to be made from all kind of idolatry and vnrighteousnes of the heathen , and from all fellowship with them in their vncleane things . but here is no separation from the church , though these superstitious christians were in it . nay , it is euident , there was neuer any separation admitted , either by word , or by example , ( except by those that separated themselues to make sects , which are reproued by the apostles ) vntill such time as by the mallice and subtiltie of the diuell , and through the pride and wickednes of the bishop and church of rome , after they had gotten iurisdiction ouer all , that they had brought into the church the idolatries and abhominations of the pagans , and so cunningly compounded them , with the name and religion of christ , that no man could pertake of any good among them , but he must pertake of the euill also . then , and not till then , i say , the lord commanded saying , goe out of her my people , that ye be not pertaker of her sinnes , and that you receiue not of her plagues . this was not , because there were many offenders in the church of rome , nor because of their personall presence in the assemblies , but because the lord would not haue his people partake , ( in their owne persons ) of their sinnes ; which if they continued with them , could not be auoided . neither was there a separation to be made from the church of the iewes , as bad and as cruell as it was , but christ and his apostles did alwayes both by word and example , teach the contrary ; onely the false doctrine and hipocrisie , and wickednes of the iewes , they warned the faithfull to take heed of . and as concerning the church of england , which thou so much contemnest , although there be many euill workers , vngodly , and vnregenerate persons ▪ superstitiously minded , as well of the ministery , as of the people , as out of all doubt there are . for if , of but twelue apostles , one was a diuell ; and that there were false apostles , and false teachers , proud , and couetous , in the primitiue churches , and false brethren , belly gods , and such like , when christians were but few in number ; how should it be , but there must now be many ; yet this is not sufficient ground for thy seperation . nay , suppose ( as the truth is ) that the faithfull be but few in number , and rare , as the dust or oare that gold commeth of , and the vngodly as common as the clay that men make pots of , as the prophet speaketh ; for doubtles , if god said of the israelites , that though their number were as the sand of the sea , yet but a remnant of them should be saued ; we haue no reason to thinke it should be otherwise with vs ; nay , saint paul sheweth plainly , that god will finish the worke , and cut it short in righteousnes , because a short worke will the lord make vpon the earth . yet what of this , thou hast no ground from hence to proue a separation . nay , vnlesse thou canst proue that the church of england , hath set vp , and doth command the abhominations of the heathen , as doth the church or rome , and so mix them and christian religion together , as thou couldest not partake of the good , but thou must partake of the euill , and so sinne against god in thine owne person , thou hast no ground at all for thy separation . art thou offended because god hath beene so gracious to this kingdome , aboue all other nations , in causing the princes and kings thereof ( now in these latter dayes ) to set their helping hands to the repairing and building vp againe of the decaied walles of ierusalem , and to the restoring of the morning and euening sacrifice of praise and thanksgiuing , as it was in former time , and in the dayes of old . dost thou not know it was the word of truth , the sword which proceedeth out of the mouth of the lord , ministred by his faithfull seruants , whom he raised vp in these latter times , which hath beene the cause of the reuolt of the church and kingdome of england from the abhominations and tyranny of the church of rome , and that god hath done it for his chosen sake , according to his word , art thou not bound to be thankefull vnto god for the same , and with gladnesse of heart to imbrace all the good he hath vouchsafed , yet so as not therewithall to iustifie any of the present euills , nor yet to rest thy selfe secure in that good which is in being , as if all things were already come to their full measure , and so exclude thy selfe from all future grace and truth , which god hath decreed ( in and by his word ) to bring to light . for as the truth and dayly sacrifice ( which christ and his apostles did erect ) were not all wholy ( in a moment ) cast to the ground , nor the abhomination of desolation set vp at full in one day , but that the one increased by degrees , and the other wasted accordingly : so must it now be in the restauration ; as then iniquitie and falsehood increased , and truth and loue faded and waxed cold , so now ( on the contrary ) iniquitie and falsehood must consume and be expelled , and truth and the loue thereof must increase and come to their place againe ; iudgement was to begin at the house of god , but it must end in the house of iniquitie . learne therefore now to be a wise , let the confusions which the heady extreams of those carnall contentious times haue brought forth , admonish thee to take better heed ; embrace thankfully , and make right vse of the present good thou seest in place ; shun the euils , and labour to increase in the wisdome which is from aboue ; doubtlesse , there are great riches and treasures with god to be attained , such as the carnall mind shall neuer see nor know ; conuerse with the wise and holy in heart , such as are spirituall and heauenly minded , haue speciall fellowship with them , pray , weepe , and reioyce ( dayly together ) with them ; call often to minde the hope of the ioy and glory ye shall receiue in the world to come , in the day when christ your lord shall appeare ; hope , loue , and long for his appearing , and edifie your selues with these things ; pray vnto god , and vse all good meanes ( according to your measure and place ) to redresse what is amisse in others ; labour ( thorough patience and meeknesse ) to winne them to the truth , and loue thereof ; so shall ye be profitable members of the church of god , diligent and faithfull seruants of christ . you are not ignorant ( i suppose ) of the manifold mischieues that men haue fallen into , by reason of the fleshly wranglings which haue been in these late times , what confusion , diuision and distraction there is among the people ; what and how many sundry opinions and seuerall sects there are , yea sects vpon sects , diuision vpon diuision , error vpon error , hath been bred and brought forth . many haue risen ( in these latter times ) speaking peruerse things , to draw disciples after them , to get themselues a name , the diuell deluding them through pride , vnder pretence of some excellent way of truth , which he makes them beleeue is reuealed vnto them . as first , for the church of rome , all the world seeth what confusion , what fearfull delusions are therein , what multitudes of sects of new deuised orders of priests , of friers , each drawing a traine after him ; and now ( since the light of the truth hath broken forth ) what strange contentions haue beene raised in the church of god about things of no moment ( when great and weightie matters haue been neglected , ) and what emulations , diuisions and separations haue bred thereupon ; and then , how after this , people being in distraction , haue runne from one sect and error to another , from separation to separatiō , diuiding themselues into many seuerall sects , to anabaptistry , wherein ( a-againe ) are diuided into fiue or six sundry sects , each hatefully condemning other , holding ( also ) many dangerous errors , some to expect new apostles , some to the heresie of arius ; and some others ( who being , as it were , distracted with these things ) haue fallen to another ( the most blasphemous and erronious sect this day in the world ) commonly called by the name of the family of loue , whose author was one henrie nicolas , or h. n. for so they will haue him called , that is ( as they expound it ) homo nouus , the new man , or the holy nature , or holinesse , which they make to be christ , and sin they will haue to be antichrist , because it is opposite to christ . they say , that when adam sinned , then christ was killed , and antichrist came to liue . they teach , that the same perfection of holinesse which adam before he fell , is to be attained here in this life ; and affirme , that all their family of loue are as perfect and innocent as he . and that the resurrection of the dead , spoken of by saint paul in the 1. cor. 15. and this prophesie , then shall be fulfilled the saying which is written , o death , where is thy sting ? o graue , where is thy victory ? is fulfilled in them , and denie all other resurrection of the body to be after this life . they will haue this blasphemer h. n. to be the sonne of god , christ , which was to come in the end of the world to iudge the world ; and say , that the day of iudgement is already come ; and that h. n. iudgeth the world now by his doctrine ; so that whosoeuer doth not obey his gospel , shall ( in time ) be rooted out of the world ; and that his family of loue shall inherite and inhabite the earth for euer , world without end ; only ( they say ) they shall die in the bodie , as now men do , and their soules go to heauen , but their posterities shall continue for euer . this deceiuer describeth eight through breakings of the light ( as he termeth them ) to haue beene in eight seueral times from adam to the time that now is , which ( as he saith ) haue each exceeded other ; the seuenth he alloweth iesus christ to be the publisher of , and his light to be the greatest of all that euer were before him ; and he maketh his owne to be the eighth , and last , and greatest , and the perfection of all , in and by which christ is perfected , meaning holinesse . he maketh euery one of his family of loue to be christ , yea and god , and himselfe god and christ in a more excellent maner , saying , that he is godded with god , and codeified with him , and that god is hominified with him . these horrible blasphemies , with diuers others , doth this h. n. and his family teach to be the euerlasting gospel , which the angell is said to preach in reuelation 14. 6. and himselfe to be the angell , yea and the archangell which is said to sound the great and last trump , reuel . 11. 15. they professe greater loue to the church of rome , and to all her idolatries and superstitions , then they do to any church else ( whatsoeuer ) except themselues . they wickedly abuse these words of christ , i must walke to day and to morrow , and the third day i shall be perfected ; and say , that by to day is meant the time of iesus christ and his apostles ; and by to morrow , all the time of the religion of the church of rome ; and by the third day , this their day of h. n. and his family , wherein they wil haue christ to be perfected . and they doe compare all the whole religion of the church of rome , to the law of moses ; affirming , that as god did teach his people by those shadowes and types till iesus christ came , so he hath taught the world ( euer since ) by the images , sacrifices , and filthy heathenisme of the church of rome , till this wretch h. n. came , and now he must be the onely chiefe teacher , gods obedient man , yea his sonne , as they blasphemously call him ; he ( by his gospell ) must make all perfect . they will outwardly submit to any kind of religion , and to any idolatrous seruice whatsoeuer , pretending it is not the bodie that can sinne , but the soule . they will be priests in the church of rome , and act their seruice after their maner of deuotion ; and as satan can transforme himselfe into an angell or light , so they can thrust themselues ( likewise ) ●o be publike ministers and preachers in the church of england ; yea into the kings chappell , and to be of his officers and messengers , so bold they are , euen at this present ; and so close and cunningly they can carry themselues ( being directed thereto by their master h. n. ) that yee shall hardly ( euer ) find them out . they will professe to agree in all points with the church of england , as also with the church of rome , if they should be examined by them , onely this , they will not ( lightly ) deny their master h. n. nor speake euill of him or his writings , if they should be put to it : and there is no way but this whereby to discouer them , i say , to put them to the deniall and abiuring of him and his writings , and to pronounce him a blasphemer , and his doctrine blasphemous ; this they will hardly doe , vnlesse they be not yet his full disciples . these horrible blasphemies , & wicked actions ( which i hate to describe ) but that i desire christians should take notice of them , and beware ) doth this blasphemer and his blasphemous sect , teach and practise . but i cease , sighing and sorowing in my heart , ( god doth know ) to see that the deuill should worke such mischeife now in this last time , wherein ( i know ) god will haue his truth to prosper , and most of all , because many silly soules are taken in their snares like poore vnwary birds ( in time of winter , when foode is scarse ) seeking for releife . alas , what may be the cause of this ? is there not some great fault in those that should giue light to the world , who sit in the places of the starres of god. doth not their negligence & coldnes driue the people into these extreames ? or are the violent courses , and carnall contentions of some other the cause thereof , or is it both ? doubtles , they are both great causes thereof , the diuell being the cheife author , for there is nothing that he doth enuie more , then the power of truth and godlines ; if he cannot worke all men asleepe , by cold carnall security , as he doth the most , he will ( if it be possible ) deceiue the rest by some pretended strict way of truth , for his aime is to deceiue all , he spareth none . o that the watchmen ( therefore ) would lay these things to heart , and examine themselues , by the examples of the holy apostles , and rules which they haue set downe , to proue them by ? what will it auaile you ( in the day of accompt ) that ye haue bin called the ministers of god , the shepheards of his flocke , when ye haue not done the office of faithfull ministers and sheepheards to his flock , what will your pleasure , your profit , your praise and estimation of men ( in that day ) doe ye good ah deare sirs , take heed , it concerneth your selues much , as it doth the people also . to be called the ministers of god , is a high and honorable title , but a thousand times more honor it is , to be a faithfull minister of god , in deed , and in truth ; what though you be not esteemed of the world ; nay ? what if ye be despised and hated thereof ? what though you should be destitude and afflicted , and vndergoe hunger , thirst , cold , labours , watchings , weepings , perills , prisonments , sword , &c. christ saith , i was an hungry , i was athirst , i was naked , sicke in prison , &c , he meaneth you , if ye be his seruants ; if ye partake not with him in his sufferings , how can ye looke to reigne with him , if ye follow him not in the regeneration , ye shall not sit on throanes with him . what will these words of the lord auaile or concerne you , where he saith , and god shall wipe away all teares from their eyes : and there shal be no more death nor sorrow , neither shall there be any more paine . if ye neuer knew what any of these things meant , it is better to sow here in teares , that we may hereafter reape with ioy , then to laugh here , and weepe for euer ; let not therefore ( i humble beseech you ) the feare of the losse and fauour of friends , of your pleasures , profits , praise , or estimation with men , or whatsoeuer this world can afford , keepe you from following the lord , in whom there is great reward , oh happy is the soule that can forsake all these things for the loue of christ , and his gospells sake , for he shall receiue an hundred fould more ( such treasures as cannot be vttered ) euen here in this present time , and in the world to come life euerlasting , feare not , ( if ye can cast your care on him ) certainly he will not see you left destitute : neuer shall any man know what the treasures of wisdome , and riches of his grace , in the gospell are , except he can preferre them in his heart , aboue all carnall things whatsoeuer , nay , except he can truly forsake them all , and himselfe also , for loue thereof , neither will god ( else ) euer take pleasure in him , or impart vnto him his secrets , let him be how skilfull , how learned , how esteemed of men soeuer . but he that can like the merchant , sell all he hath , and purchase the field wherein the true treasure lieth , he shall not onely be rich himselfe , but be able to make others rich thereby , according also as christ saith , whoseeuer beleeueth in me , as the scriptures hath said , out of his belly shall flow riuers of water of life . he shall not onely himselfe ( being entred in by the doore ) go in and out and finde pasture , but shall guide others also in by the same doore to the same pastures of life , and so hauing turned many to righteousnes , by the faithfull administration of the word of truth , shall possesse peace , comfort , and a good conscience here , and when the lord shall come in his glory to reward euery one according as his works and labours haue beene , he shall shine , not onely like the brightnes of the firmament , ( as euery wise holy christian shall doe ) but as the starres for euer and euer , as the prophet daniel testifieth , saying , and they that be wise shall shine as the brightnes of the firmament , and they that turne many to righteousnes , as the starres for euer and euer . an eight point , held at this present by the antient anabaptists . that a king or maiestrate cannot be a true christian , except he giue ouer his kingly office or maiestracie . answer . this , although it be not fully the opinion of these our english anabaptists , yet because it is a point so generally held among the other sects of them , and for that these ( with others ) are not yet rightly informed as touching the authoritie of kings & gouernours , what it is , how far it doth extend , nor yet how far forth christians are bound to obey and submit vnto them ; we will therefore first disproue that error of the elder anabaptists , then shew what the authoritie of kings and gouernours is , how far it doth extend , and how farforth euery true christian is bound by the word of god ( as he is a subiect or citizen ) to obey and submit vnto them , and then , that all kingdomes , peoples , powers , and authorities whatsoeuer , shall serue and obey the king of kings & lord of lords for euermore . they that haue serued and obeyed him according to his gospell here in this life , shall serue , honor , and praise him freely and with ioy for euer hereafter , and they that would not by the voice of the gospell be brought to serue and obey him here in this life , shall be made ( by force of torments ) to serue and obey him for euer in the world to come ; this will we briefely doe if god permit . that kings and rulers , gouernours and magistrates , may be true christians , and retaine their kingly places , rule , authoritie , and magistracie , is euident by the examples of dauid , of solomon , and others , who were true christians by faith according to the promise in the spirit , though christ was not yet come in the flesh , they liued and dyed kings of this world , and true christians also : and the case is not now altered by the comming of christ in the flesh , the gospell hath not made any alteration in that respect , but doth rather confirme it , where christ saith vnto his disciples , ( who striued among themselues , which of them should be the greatest ) luk. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. ( a place which these anabaptists do chiefly alledge for their purpose , ) the kings of the gentiles exercise lordship ouer them , and they that exercise authoritie vpon thē , are called gracious lords , but ye shall not be so ; but he that is greatest among you , let him be as the least , and he that is chiefe , as he that doth serue . he doth not here forbid a christian to be an earthly or temporall king , nor such a king to be a christian ; nay , his words do allow both ; only he forbiddeth that christians should aspire in their minds , or seeke to be great , or to rule ouer one another , as they are christians , children of one god and father , and seruants of one lord iesus christ . and that if any of them be great kings & rulers in the world , they should not exercise authoritie ouer their brethren , as do the kings of the gentiles , or as now the lords of rome do , as if they were lords ouer gods heritage ; nay , but though they be kings , and ( as touching their temporall state and dominion ) doe and may lawfully reigne and rule ouer all , and are chiefe and head of all persons , as well ecclesiasticall as ciuill , true christians as others , considered ( also ) as they are subiects or citizens ; yet as kings are christians , and as their subiects are christians , and of the same bodie of christ with them , they may not take lordship vpon them , nor exercise dominion ouer them , neither ought they ( in that respect ) to yeeld it vnto them , because that title of honour and dominion spirituall , doth belong to their lord and master iesus christ onely ; and therefore he saith , call no man lord on earth , for one is your lord ; call no man master , for one is your master : as saint paul likewise saith , for although there be on earth many that be called gods and lords , ( as there be many gods , and many lords ) yet vnto vs there is but one god , euen the father of all , and one lord iesus christ , &c. christ is the lord , the prince and head of christians , as they are christians ; but the king is the lord and prince and head of christians , as they are citizens or subiects . so that these words of christ , but he that is greatest among you , let him be as the least , and him that is chiefest , as him that serueth , haue this meaning : that that christian which is the greatest of christians , in regard of his temporall honour and dignitie of place in this world , should be in heart and affection , yea and in outward actions of loue , meeknesse and humilitie , ( i say ) as he is a true christian euen as the least true christian ; and he that is chiefest in any externall office or place , should ( as he is a christian ) be euen as that true christian whose place is to serue ( i say ) in mercie , humilitie , charitable actions , &c. now , that kings and rulers haue lawfull authoritie from god ouer all persons , and that all ought to be obedient vnto them and their lawes , saint paul declareth at large , saying , let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers : for there is no power but of god ; the powers that be , are ordained of god ; whosoeuer therefore resisteth the power , resisteth the ordinance of god , and they that resist , shall receiue to themselues damnation : for rulers are not a terror to good works , but to the euill ; wilt thou not be afraid of the power ? do that which is good , and thou shalt hane praise of the same ; for he is the minister of god to thee for good : but if thou do that which is euill , be afraid , for he beareth not the sword in vaine , for he is the minister of god , a reuenger to execute wrath vpon him that doth euill . wherefore ye must needs be subiect , not onely for wrath , but also for conscience sake . for , for this cause pay you tribute also , for they are gods ministers , attending vpon this very thing . render therefore ( saith he ) to all their due , tribute to whom tribute is due , custome to whom custom , feare to whom feare , honour to whom honour , &c. by all which ( i say ) it is euident , that the power and authoritie of kings is of god , and ordained by him , yea though they be infidels ; and that it doth extend ouer all , as wel true christians as others , ecclesiasticall persons as ciuill , and that euery soule ought to be subiect vnto them and to their lawes and ordinances , euen for conscience sake , ( alwayes prouided that they be not opposite to the lawes and ordinances of god , and rules of the gospell , though they be not the same , but their owne , euen the ordinances of man , as saint peter termeth them , saying , submit your selues to euery ordinance of man , for the lords sake , whether it be to the king as superiour , or vnto gouerners , as vnto them that are sent by him for the punishment of euill doers , and for the praise of them that do wel , &c. if then kings and gouerners ( being infidels ) haue authoritie from god to make lawes and ordinances , such as god commandeth not , but are their owne , and indifferent in respect of conscience towards god ( some of them ) and might be left vndone , if they were not by authoritie commanded ; and that this is to be done of euery soule , euen for conscience sake , and for the lords sake , as the apostles speake ; not for conscience as touching religion , as if there were any religious vse or conscience that way to be made of them , but in respect of dutie to kings and gouerners . as touching the things that god commandeth , and they also require , we ought to obey them , not because the king commandeth them , but because god commandeth them , and not as mans ordinances , but as gods. if ( i say ) christians ought to be thus obedient vnto infidels , ( for such were the kings where christians in those days liued , ) much more ought we to be obedient to christian kings in the like respects , and much more authoritie haue they to constitute and require the lawes and ordinances of god according to his word : for their office & dutie is , not only to see their people gouerned and prouided for , as touching their temporall states , to place officers ( vnder him ) ouer them for the same purpose , but also and chiefly to see them prouided for as touching their eternall estates , to plant ouer them faithfull shepherds to feed their soules with the bread of life , and to roote out and suppresse such as spoile and deuoure the flock , and sow heresies among the people , as haue done and doe the popish priests and iesuites , these anabaptists , familists and others . and as the dutie of a christian king is to place ouer his people faithfull shepherds : so it belongeth to him also to see them prouided for , according to the commandement of the lord , which saith , thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the oxe which treadeth out the corne . for , to princes and rulers , and such as haue power to muzzle their mouthes and to see them prouided for , doth the lord speake . thus much briefly touching the authoritie of kings and rulers , how far their power doth extend , and how far forth christians are bound to obey and submit vnto them ; and thus it must be during the time of this world , kings must rule ( by gods appointment ) ouer all people , all are bound to obey them in all their lawes and ordinances which are not opposite to the lawes of god ; but if they shall command any thing that god forbiddeth , or forbid anything that god requireth ( as the antichrist of rome , and many heathenish kings & gouerners , iews , & some professed christian kings haue done ) they may not be obeyed , but christians ought rather to suffer ( with patience and meeknesse ) whatsoeuer they shall inflict vpon them , for they are here called to suffer . and that there will come a day , in which all kings , princes and powers must lay downe their crownes and scepters at the feet of christ , and resigne all their power and authoritie to him the king of kings and lord of lords , whose right all the kingdomes of this world are , and that all powers and principalities , peoples and nations shall serue and obey him ( the most high lord and king of all ) for euer and euer , the scriptures do euidently and often declare , so often as would be too long for me now to recite , onely some few i will mention for proofe thereof . the prophet daniel hauing described the foure great monarchs which were to reigne in the earth ouer the inhabitants thereof , frō that time to the end of the world , and hauing also foreseene the end and destruction of them , saith , i saw in the night visions , and behold , one like the son of man , came with the clouds of heauen , and came to the ancient of dayes , and they brought him neare before him , and there was giuen him dominion and glorie , and a kingdome , that all people , nations and languages should serue him , his dominion is an euerlasting dominion which shall not passe away , and his kingdome that which shall not be destroyed . this doth he further explane in the 27 verse of this chapter , saying , and the kingdome , and dominion , and the greatnesse of the kingdome vnder the whole heauen , shall be giuen to the people of the saints of the most high , whose kingdome is an euerlasting kingdome , and all dominions shall serue & obey him . as also in the interpretation of the dreame of nebucadnezzar ( the first of the f●…ure monarchs , ) after he had described the last , he saith , and in the dayes of these kings shall the god of heauen set vp a kingdome which shall neuer be destroyed ; and the kingdome shall not be left for other people , but it shall breake in peeces and consume all these kingdomes , and it shall stand for euer . and againe , speaking of the reigne of the same monarch , he saith , but the saints of the most high shall take the kingdom , and possesse the kingdom euen for euer and euer . by all which the prophet sheweth plainly , that the stone which was cut out of the mountaine without hands , christ which was to come of the house of dauid , should ( by the power of the most high , through the word which was to proceed out of his mouth ) breake in peeces , consume & destroy all those monarchs which were to reigne in the world ; and that he ( the lord & owner of all ) should possesse the kingdome , and reigne on the earth for euer and euer , world without end . and that the saints of the most high ( not the carnall iewes yet remaining , as some imagine , but all his redeemed , from the beginning of the world to the end ) shall possesse the kingdome , and reigne with him , not in a carnall earthly maner , but in a heauenly estate of glorie ; not for a time , but for euer & euer , beyond all time ; and that then & from thenceforth all powers and dominions , people and nations whatsoeuer , shall serue and obey him . this in briefe ( is that ) which the prophet intendeth , which ( also ) the rest of the holy prophets foresaw and foretold of , as saint peter testifieth , saying , and he shall send iesus christ , which before was preached vnto you , whom the heauens must receiue , vntill the time of restitution of all things which god hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began , meaning this great restitution , which is to be fulfilled at the second coming of christ in the clouds of heauen , when the seuenth angell shall sound the last trump , as saint iohn witnesseth , saying , and the seuenth angell sounded , and there were great voices in heauen , saying , the kingdomes of this world are becom the kingdomes of our lord and of his christ , and he shall reigne for euer & euer . and that this shall not be till the great trump shal sound , mentioned by esaias the prophet , by christ in the gospell , by saint paul to the corinthians & thesfalonians , by saint iohn in the reuelation , till christ shall come in the clouds of heauen , and that euery eye shall see him , euen they that pierced him , and that all the kindreds of the earth shall mourne and waile before him , is manifest ( i say ) by all those seuerall scriptures , as also by the testimonie of the holy author to the hebrewes , where he saith , for vnto the angels hath he not put in subiection the world to come , whereof we speake , but one in a certaine place testified saying , what is man , that thou art mindfull of him ? or the son of man , that thou visitest him ? thou crownedst him with glorie & honour , and didst set him ouer the workes of thy hands , thou hast put all things in subiection vnder his feete , &c. in which place the apostle sheweth cleerly , that it is the world to come , in which all powers and things shall be actually and visibly seene to be vnder his feet , and all the kingdoms of this world shall be the fathers and his ; then ( i say ) in that world , not in this , as christ saith , my kingdom is not of this world , then when the last enemy is destroyed , when this world shall be made another world , according to his promise , then shall all powers and principalities , all people and nations serue and obey him ; he will no longer be dishonored by them , they shall not vse their tongues and powers then as they list , and as they had wont to do , but all tongues shall confesse , and euery knee shall bow to him ; they that in their life times would not be brought by the faire meanes of his gospel to serue & obey him , shall be brought to do it ( after death ) by paine ; yea satan himselfe ( the author of wickednesse , who neuer intended to giue praise and honour to god or to christ ) euen he with all his angels and spirits of wickednesse ( vnder their torments , and by force of the rod of iron , which christ the king of the whole earth shall exercise ouer them in that world ) shall be compelled , with all powers , people and kings whatsoeuer , to confesse and bow before him , serue and obey him , praise and magnifie him , his iustice and mercie for euer . for if at the name of iesus euery knee shall bow , both of things in heauen , and things in earth , & things vnder the earth , and that all tongues shall confesse that iesus christ is the lord , to the glory of god the father , as the apostle speaketh ; then ( doubtlesse ) satan and his followers are not exempted , yet euermore vnder torments ( as we haue said . ) if satan and his angels , or any of the cursed children of men , which shall be condemned and tormented for euer with them , should after iudgement raile against god , and blaspheme him , as some do teach they shall ; or if they should doe the least mischiefe ( any kind of way ) either against christ , or against any of his brethren , the children of god , which shall then reigne for euer with him ; how is it then said , that al powers shal serue and obey the most high ? how are all things then subdued to christ , and put vnder his feet ? how hath he loosed the works of the diuell ? as the scriptures speake . if the last enemy be death , and that death be once swallowed vp in victorie , and it be fulfilled which is written , o death , where is thy sting ? o graue , where is thy victory ? what is the thing then left , that can doe the least euill against god , against christ , against sion , or against any of her children which are now redeemed from all those former captiuities ? nay , none shall euer hurt or destroy in all that holy mountaine ; and for that old serpent , vpon his belly shall he go , and dust shall be his meate . when satan ( that serpent ) went first about to seduce mankind , by sowing sinne ( the sting of death ) in his heart , he aimed not at his owne perpetuall torments , neither did he intend to come to praise & glorifie god for euer and euer , ( as he shall one day be compelled to do ) these were no part of his thoughts ; nay , but his aime & purpose was to bring all men in subiectiō to himself , to do him homage and seruice , and so to depriue god of all his honour on earth for euer , that he and his wickednesse might haue the rule ; this was his plot ; hee litle thought of a seed to come , to bruise his head ; nay , after the seed was promised , he ceased not for all this , but stroue still to effect his purpose , and he preuailed much therein , chiefly by presenting riches , honor , and the glorie of this world vnto men : so that when the seed himselfe ( in person ) came , he spared not to tempt him with the like baites ; but he ouercame him , and hath in part , and shall ere long , fully vndoe his whole plot , and cast him where he shall receiue that which he aimed not at , and force him to doe that which he neuer intended : and sion which had been so long desolate and waste , shall be set vp the praise of the whole earth , and be established in righteousnesse and safetie for euer , according to the prophets . she shall be farre from oppression , for she shall not feare ; and from terror , for it shall not come neare to her ; violence shall be no more heard within her land , nor wasting & destruction within her borders ; she shal call her walls saluation , and her gates praise , her gouernment shall be peace , and her exacters righteousnesse ; all those that formerly despised her , and the sons of them that did afflict her , shall come bending vnto her , and worship at the soles of her feete , and shall call her , the citie of the lord , sion of the holy one of israel ; her sunne shall no more go downe , neither shall her moone withdraw it selfe , for the lord shall be her euerlasting light , and the dayes of her mourning shall be ended . reuelat. 15 4. who shall not feare thee o lord , and glorifie thy name , for thou onely art holy : for all nations shall come and worship before thee , for thy iudgements are made manifest . finis . errata . pag. 9 lin . 13. 14. iust vpon , reade iust vpon them . p. 24. l. 23. principall , reade principle . p. 33. l. 34. braken , read broken . p. 34. l. 3 consideration , read considence . & l. 30. perfection , read protection . p. 47. l. 5. points , r. point . & l. 10. read paradise . & l. 24. had eaten , read had not eaten . & l 37. they , r. there . p. 51. l. 33. reade considerations . p. 53. l. 37. proue , read proues . p 69. l. 2. that church , read that the church , & l. 5. put out the. & l. 32. be , reade being . p. 71. l. 33. read such as come in by the doore . pag. 72. l. 23. successed , reade succeeded . p. 81 l. 26. he , read her . p. 86. l. 21. or , read of . p. 87. l. 24. leaue out a. & l. 25 those , read these . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a04400-e440 prou. 8. 22 , 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. reuel . 5. 9. rom. 8. 29 ▪ 30. prou. 1. 31. hosea 13. 9. notes for div a04400-e580 ephes . 1. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. 1 pet. 1. 2. rom 9. 11 , 12 , 13. math. 24. 22. dan. 9. 27. reu. 19. 11 , 12 , 13. 2. thessal . 2. 8. math. 24. ver . 22. rom. 8. 30. ephes 1. 4. rom. 1. 16. rom. 9. 7. rom. 4 ▪ 17. rom. 9. 8. gal. 3. 29. and 4. 28. rom. 9. 10 , 11. ver . 12. ephes . 1. 3. rom. 5. 12 , 14 , 18. psal . 51 ▪ 5. ver . 7. iohn 3. 6. iob 14. 4. notes for div a04400-e1310 rom. 3. 9. & 5. 12 , 14 , 18. philip. 2. 13. rom. 9. 16. deut. 29. 4. ioh. 6. 44 , 65. & 15. 16. ier. 10. 23. 2. cor. 3. 5. math. 22. 5 , 14. luk. 14. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. rom 8. 28 , 29. & 1 16. 1. cor. 1. 24. 26. luk 4. 18. esay 61. 1. ezek 36. 27. math. 15. 24. ezek. 11. 19. ier. 32 39. 2. cor. 3. 3 , 4. gal. 3. 26 , 27. obiect . answ . mat , 20. 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. obiect . answ . ioh. 3. 5. iam. 1 , 17 , 18. rom. 9. 16. notes for div a04400-e1730 reuel . 13. 8. 1. pet. 1. 5. rom. 5. 10. ephes . 1. 4 , 5 , 6. rom. 8. 29. 30. acts 15. 9. & 10. 43. rom. 8. 15 , 16. 〈◊〉 . 29. col. 3. 1 , 2 , 3. 1. pet. 1. 5. psal . 62. 2 , 6 , 7. esay 40. 11. psal . 23. 1. ioh. 15 1 , 2. ioh. 10. 29. & 17. 6. 10 , 12 ▪ & 10. 14. 4. ver . 28 , 29 , 30. luk 22. 31. psal . 62. 7. 2. pet. 2. 4. 5 , 6. ioh. 15. 5. luk. 22. 32. math. 16. 18. psal . 16. 11. ioh. 13. 1. ioh. 6. 56 , 57. ioh. 6. 47. rom. 5. 8 , 9 , 10. rom. 8. 35 , 36 , 37 , 38 , 39. obiect . ezek. 18. 24. answ . 2. cor. 2. 15 , 16 rom. 16. 15. 16. col. 1. 23. mark. 10. 15. math , 28. 19. psal . 19. rom. 10. 18. rom. 1. 20. act. 14. 16 , 17. act. 17. 27. heb. 1. 1. 2. 2. pet. 1. 19. 10 , 21. heb. 4. 1. 2. rom. 10 , 7 , 8 , ver . 6. heb 1. 2. rom. 2. 14. luk 12. 47. math. 23. 24 , 24 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. mat. 5. 20. ioh. 12. 6. luk. 6. 43. iam. 3. 11. 12. luk. 6. 44. ver . 45. acts. 8 , 13. ioh. 6. 66. mat. 13. 20. iam. 1. 8. gal. 5. 6. 1. cor. 13. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. mat. 13. 4. 5. 6. 7. ver 8. heb. 6. 8. mark. 11. 13. 14. luk. 4. 18. act. 10. 36. 37. & act. 26. 18. mat. 3. 11. esa . 40. 20. 2. cor. 1. 21. 22. eph. 1. 13. math. 11. 28. esa . 61. 1. 2. 3. luk. 4. 18. 19. luk. 7. 22. mat. 11. 5. mat. 21. 26. mark. 1. 4. ioh 3. 5. eph. 6. 15. heb. 6. 1. ioh. 3. 5. mat. 11. 28. 2 cor. 3. 3. ier. 31. 34. heb. 10. 17. ier. 31. 38 , 39. 40. math. 3. 2. math. 4. 17. mat. 3. 11. ioh 3 5. tit. 3. 5. rom. 8. 5. gal. 4. 6. rom 8 15. rom. 8. 2. iob. 16. 13. ioh. 16. 7. 1 ioh. rom. 14. tit. 11. iam. 2. 1. philip. 1. 9. gal. 3. 22. iude 3. iude 20. 2. pet. 1. 1. rom. 5. 1. act. 15. 9. rom. 4. 16. gal. 5. 6. psal . 1. 3. math. 13. 23. heb. 6 7. esay 61. 3. iude 23. 1. thess . 5. 22. rom. 7. 23. psal . 126. 5. 6 , gal. 5. 24. 1. ioh. 4. 19. eph. 1. 13. 14. 1. ioh. 4. 19. rom. 5. 8. 9. 10. rom. 8. 15. 1. ioh. 5. 1. ioh. 3. 5 , 1. cor. 12. 26. 27 rom. 12. 15. 16. luk. 16. 9. mat. 25. 34. 35 36. ver . 41. 1. ioh. 3. 14. 5. 2. rom. 12. 20. ver . 14. act 7. 60. mat. 5. 48. ioh 7. 34. 35. reu. 7. 14. mat. 5. 20. reu. 20. 6. col. 3 12. 2. cor. 5. 17. ioh. 17. 16. 1. ioh. 2. 15. phil. 3. 20. rom. 1. 17. heb. 10. 37. 38. 39. 1. ioh. 2. 19. ioh. 12. 5. ver . 6. ioh. 6. ver . 64. ver . 65. mat. 11. 28. ioh. 6. 37. ver . 66. ver . 70. ver . 53. 54. 1. pet. 2. 5. 6. math. 16. 18. rom. 7. 22. luk. 6. 45. 2. cor. 13. 8. math. 7. 18. reu. 2. 25 , 26. psal . 69. 28. ver . 28. ver . 26. iude 12. luk. 8. 18. heb. 6. 8. luk. 12. 2. 3. luk. 8. 18. reu. 17. 8. reu. 13. 8. mal. 3. 6. gen. 3. 15. ver . 15. gen. 12. 3. gen. 17. 5. gen. 21. 12. gen. 18 10. gal. 4. 28. rom. 9. 8. gen. 17. 7. 8. heb. 11. 16. esa . 61. 3. ioh. 15. 2. notes for div a04400-e5550 1. cor. 7. 14. gen. 1. 2. 8. act. 17. 26. 29. gen. 1. 24. iob 14. 4. psalm 51. 5. 4. esdras . rom. 5. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. iob. 3. 3. ver . 5. ioh. 16. 21. absurdities . gen. 3. 15. notes for div a04400-e6200 act. 10. 31. ver . 32. heb. 1. 1. luk. 13. 24. mat. 7. 15. 19. 21. 22. 23. ioh. 6. 64. mat. 7. 23. 1. cor. 3. 4. 1. cor. 12. 20. 2. cor. 13. 5. act. 8. 22. rom. 8. deut. 28. rom. 2. rom. 4. 11. rom. 2. mr. smith baptized himselfe first , and then mr. helwis , and iohn morton , with the rest . mark 10. 13 , 14 , 15. a retortion vpon themselues . reu. 13. notes for div a04400-e7670 act. 20. 25 , 26. 27. 28. 29. 30 ▪ 31 1. ioh. 2. 19. mat. 24. 15. 2. thes . 2. 3. 4. esa . 14. 12. 13. 14. ioh. 10. mat. 24. 46. math. 24. 48 , 49 , 50 , 51. rom. 1. 8. reuel . 12. 1. reuel . 12. arianisme . math. 24. 12. 1. pet. 2. 5. dan. 9. 27. reue. 13. 16 , 17 reuel . 18. 4 , 5. 1. cor. 9. 1. act. 1. 21. 22. luk. 10. 1. mat. 16. 19. 1. tim. 3. 25. mat. 18. 19. act. 15. 28. math. 16. 18. math. 21. reuel . 17. 5. math. 23. 35. reuel . 18. 24. 1. pet. 2. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. ephes . 4. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. iam. 1. 17. luk. 7. 28. 2 cor. 11. 13. philip. 1. 15. 2. pet. 2. 14. 1. cor. 6. 6. phil. 3. 18. 19. 1. cor. 11. ●● . 1. cor. 8. 7. 1. cor. 10. 20. 21. 22. 2. cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. such as were carnall , hauing not the spirit . iud. 19. reu. 18. 4. note , how that there were euer in the purest churches , such as were bitter one to another , full of strife , seditions , & all maner of euill workes , which are condēned by the apostle to be earthly , sensiuall , and diuellish . esa . 10. 22. rom. 9. 27. 28. note , that these striuings are ( onely ) about formes and outward ordinatiōs , which leade to nothing but contentions . luk. 13. 32. notes how to discouer a familest . dan. 12. notes for div a04400-e9650 luk. 22. math. 23. 1. cor. 8. 5. 6. rom. 13. 1. pet. 2. 13 , 14. deut. 25. 4. 1. cor. 9. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. dan. 7. 13 , 14. dan. 7. 27. dan. 2. 44. dan. 7. 18. esa . 27. 13 mat 24. 31. 1 cor. 15. 52. 1. thes . 4. 16. reu. 10. 7. reu. 11. 15. mat. 24. 30. reu. 1. 7. heb. 2. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 ioh. 18. 39. esa . 45. 23. phil. 2. 10 , 11. hos . 13. 14. 1 cor. 15. 55. esa . 54. 13 , 14. esa . 60. 14. reu. 3. 9. a counter-antidote, to purge out the malignant effects of a late counterfeit, prepared by mr. gyles shute ... being an answer to his vindication of his pretended antidote to prevent the prevalency of anabaptism, shewing that mr. hercules collins's reply to the said author remains unanswered : wherein the baptism of believers is evinced to be god's ordinance, and the baptized congregations proved true churches of jesus christ : with a further detection of the error of pedo-baptism : to which is added, an answer to mr. shute's reply to mr. collins's half-sheet / by benjamin keach. keach, benjamin, 1640-1704. 1694 approx. 286 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 33 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a47448 wing k54 estc r18808 12350372 ocm 12350372 59964 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a47448) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 59964) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 213:4) a counter-antidote, to purge out the malignant effects of a late counterfeit, prepared by mr. gyles shute ... being an answer to his vindication of his pretended antidote to prevent the prevalency of anabaptism, shewing that mr. hercules collins's reply to the said author remains unanswered : wherein the baptism of believers is evinced to be god's ordinance, and the baptized congregations proved true churches of jesus christ : with a further detection of the error of pedo-baptism : to which is added, an answer to mr. shute's reply to mr. collins's half-sheet / by benjamin keach. keach, benjamin, 1640-1704. [2], 54, 8 p. printed for h. bernard ..., london : 1694. errata: p. 54. reproduction of original in british library. "an appendix, being a reply to mr. shute's last single sheet, in answer to mr. collin's half-sheet": p. 44-54. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng collins, hercules, d. 1702. -antidote proved a counterfeit, or, error detected and believers baptism vindicated. shute, giles, b. 1650 or 51. -antidote to prevent the prevalency of anabaptism. baptism -early works to 1800. infant baptism -early works to 1800. anabaptists. 2005-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-05 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-06 rachel losh sampled and proofread 2005-06 rachel losh text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a counter-antidote , to purge out the malignant effects of a late counterfeit , prepared by mr. gyles shute , an unskilful person in polemical cures : being an answer to his vindication of his pretended antidote , to prevent the prevalency of anabaptism . shewing that mr. hercules collins's reply to the said author remains unanswered . wherein the baptism of believers is evinced to be god's ordinance , and the baptized congregations proved true churches of jesus christ. with a further detection of the error of pedo-baptism . to which is added , an answer to mr. shute's reply to mr. collins's half-sheet . by benjamin keach . london : printed for h. bernard , at the bible in the poultry . m dc xc iv. the introduction . i cannot , without grief and sorrow of heart , reflect upon the sad consequences of our present differences in and about the smaller matters of religion , whereas we agree in all the essentials thereof ; but do much more resent that bitter and censorious spirit many shew , and particularly appeareth in the person i have now to do with , which all that read his books will quickly perceive . pray do but see what a kind of advertisement he put twice into the city mercury of his last treatise , &c. wherein he positively denies those he calls anabaptists to be churches ; and their baptism he affirms to be a counterfeit , which is the baptism of believers or adult persons ; and that because we do not ground gospel-baptism upon the covenant god made with abraham , but upon the great commission our blessed saviour gave to his disciples after he rose from the dead , as it is contained , mat. 28. 19 , 20. mark 16. 15 , 16. this is such an attempt , that none of our brethren who are pedo-baptists ( nor any that ever i read of ) assayed to do . whether our baptism be a truth of christ , or a counterfeit , will appear in our answer ; but why are we no churches ? certainly we are churches ; for a church may consist of wicked men as well as of good men ; but i suppose he means we are not true churches of christ ; he , as i judge , not knowing from what theam that word is derived , we must be wicked persons or else churches of christ. this man hath come too near to the expressions and bitter reflections john child uttered against us , falsely called , anabaptists ; who soon after fell under fearful horror of conscience and desperation . he wrote a book against us , rendring us very odious to the world , and casting contempt upon our saithful ministers , but quickly was convinced of his horrid design , crying out , in despair , that he had touched the apple of god's eye ; for , said he , if god has any people in the world , those that i have vilified are his , or to that effect . the lord deliver this man from such a spirit and dismal end ; but 't is bad modling ( as we used to say ) with edge tools . our saviour shews the danger of rash judgment ; and what have ●e to do to judge our fellow servant , much less churches ? we may judge of things , and freely speak our minds , according to light received ; but to censure a people after this manner , and only because 〈◊〉 differ from him about the subject and mode of baptism , is hard ; 〈◊〉 , considering , that we are in all other things of the same faith with himself , and such that he hath daily church communion with ; is this lovely or just ? is this the spirit of jesus christ ? o● doth he appear in the wisdom that is from above , that is first pure , then peaceable , gentle , ●a●●e to be intreated , full of mercy and good fruits , without partiality and without hypocrisie , and the fruits of righteousness that is sown in peace of them that make peace , jam. 3. 17 , 18. what kind of scoffing , reproaching , railing and opprobious language he hath cast on us , i shall collect and set down in its proper place ; and yet at the same time he bears very hard upon his antagonists for using such kind of terms , &c. p. 4. how will he escape , who says a man should not steal , if he steals ? or , that a man should not commit adultery , if he commits adultery ? rom. 2. 22. or that says , a man should not scoff or rail on , and vilifie his brother when he doth the same thing , and yet pretends he hath not do●e it ; i will not render railing for railing , these are his words ; and again saith , i shall labour to declare in the spirit of meekness , pag. 4. hath he been as good as his word , or hath he not ? ( they are proper judges who have read his book . ) i think few men who have had to do with us in this controversie shewed a more four spirit than mr. eaxter ; and yet did he ever deny us to be churches , or call our baptism a counterfeit ? pray take his sentiments of us , when in a co●l spirit , these are his words , viz. that the anaebaptists are godly men ; that differ from us in a point so difficult that many papists and prelatists have maintained that it is not determined in in the scripture , but dependeth upon tradition of the church ; and i know as good and sober men of that mind as of thei●s , who are most against them , &c. and again he saith , that augustin and many children of christians were baptized at age , and that the controversie is of so great difficulty , that if in all such cases none that differ be tollerated , we may not live together in the world or church , but endlesly excommunicate or persecute one another , baxter's book , principle of love , page 7. but mr. shute hath appeared so bold and rash as if he had an infallible spirit , and seems to be so lifted up as if he hath done more in his short tract , than all those learned men who have formerly and of late times asserted pedo-baptism . and that now we are totally confuted , and we , and our cause of believers baptism gone for ever . see his title page . and in pag. 113. saith he , thus i have given you one broad side more , by which i have brought your whole opinion by the lee , and all the carpenters and calkers in the nation cannot save it from sinking . i wish he knew his own spirit and weakness better , and not thus to admire what he hath done : doth he think there is none can answer his arguments ? no saving our baptism and churches from sinking to the bottom , which he hath so furiously attacked ? sad case ! what could goliah of gath , or proud rabshaketh say more ? but he forgot the old proverb , let not him boast that puts on his armour as he that puts it off . if i or my reverend brother collins , have in any writings of ours used hard words , we have cause to be troubled , for the truth never gained any thing that way : 't is not hard words , but hard arguments that must do the business ; a soft answer ( as solomon saith ) turneth away wrath. i must say , i had rather have to do with a man that hath more argument and less confidence than i can find in his writing , or spirit . i am sorry he had no better counsel , or followed no better conduct , at such an hour as this is ▪ it sure concerns us all to study the things that make for peace , and that by which we may edifie one another ; the breach is too wide already . o what want of love is there in christians to each other , who are all members of the mystical body of christ , and children of one father , and heirs of the same glorious inheritance ! sure we shall love one another when we come to heaven ; and i hope his reverend pastor ( whom i have more cause both to love and honour than ten thousand instructors in christ , he being the blessed instrument in my conversion all most forty years ago ) gave no encouragement to him thus to write and abuse his brethren . i would he had consider'd the text , he that hateth his brother , is in darkness joh. 2. 11. for my part i hope i can say i love them in whom i see the image of god , that differ from me , in the like degree as those of mine own opinion . i am persuaded the want of love to one another is one of the greatest sins of this age , and that which is a high provocation to god ; and if that which this man hath done is a fruit of love , or tends to promote it , i am mistaken . true , i have ( may be ) wrote as much of late as another on the subject of baptism ; but never without provocation , by means of divers persons who have of late times wrote against us . i have not begun the controversie , but have still been on the defensive side ; nor can any justly blame us to clear our selves , and defend that which we believe to be the truth of christ when urged to it . as to his answer to mr. collins , he hath said something , 't is true , to one or two of his arguments , but the rest he has passed by in silence , and left the chief argumentive part , in a great measure , unanswered . and as to his reply to me , i cannot see he hath said any thing that deserveth my notice at all ; but lest the easie , unwary and prejudiced reader , should conclude he hath done wonders , should we aot return an answer . i have examined the stress of all that seems argumentive , which contains but a small part of his book , and having studied moderation and tenderness , i hope it may tend to allay and quench the fire of his passion , and bring him to a more moderate temper . however , i shall leave it to the blessing of god to dispose of the issue of it , as he shall seem good in his all-wise providence ; and to help the reader , i have divided his book into chapters in my answer ; and since he begins with the form or manner of baptizing there , i shall begin also . chap. i. wherein it is proved , that baptism is not sprinkling nor pouring of water on the face , nor dipping of the head only ; but that it is dipping or plunging of the whole body under water . i shall begin with mr. sbute's fifth page , and shall shew him that he hath not yet buried mr. collins his answer , but that it is still alive , and as lively as it was before his pretended answer came forth . in pag. 6. he r●cited what mr. cobins mentioned in the 2d page of his reply to his antidote , viz. where mr. cobins says , the right mode of baptism is by dipping . to which mr. shute saith , ( in p. 5. ) i think there is more to be said for sprinkling or pouring water on the face in baptism than there is for dipping or ducking over head and ears in a river or pond : for the latter is more like a punishment of criminals than the solemnizing of an ordinance of god ; pray hear what the scripture saith of sprinkling and of pouring water upon sinners to cleanse them . heb 12. 24 and to jesus , the mediator of the new covenant , and to the blood of sprinkling , & c. ● pet. 1. 2. elect according to the foreknowledge of god the father through sanctification of the spirit , unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of jesus christ. and isa. 44 3. for i will pour water upon him that is thirsty , and f●oods upon the dry ground : i will pour my spirit upon thy seed , and my blessings upon thine off-spring . ez ● 36. 25. then will i sprinkle cl●an water upon you , and ye shall be cl●an from all your filthiness , and from all your ●●ols w●● i cleanse you . ed●d . 2● 8. here you see ( say you ) we do not read of dipping , nor ducking in all those spiritual metaphorical baptisms , which are all nearly re●ued unto the ordinance of baptism and t●n● to the fam thing , but more effectually and perfectly , and are accompanied with the same promises , namely , the remission of sins , sanctification by the spirit , and the gift of the holy ghost ; compared with acts 2. 38 , 39. answer 1. you might have added many other places of scripture , where we read of sprinkling : but what would it signify ? the sprinkling and pouring mentioned in these scriptures , refer not to water ▪ baptism : read your learned annotators and expositors , and you will find they agree as one man ▪ that sprinkling and pouring of water ( in isaiah and ezekiel , &c. ) do refer to the graci us effusion of the spirit in the times of the gospel , and to the purifying and purging vertue of the blood of christ ; and so that in heb. 12 24. is to be understood , you should not only say , but prove baptism to be here intended , and then yoù had said something . 2. should the sprinkling or pouring in these scriptures , be meant of baptism , then it would follow that baptism has mighty vertue in it indeed , even to wash away all sin and filthiness : i thought nothing could cleanse from sin out christ's precious blood , as it is applyed by the spirit , through faith. baptism , peter tells you , washes not away the filthiness of the flesh. not the putting away of the filthiness of the flesh , but the answer of a good conscience towards god , by the resurrection of jesus christ , 1 pet. 3. 20. 3. if you should say , baptism is chiefly a sign or lively symbol of our being sprinkled with the spirit , or with the blood of jesus christ , we do deny it . you have not attempted to prove it , 't is evident baptism is principally a sign or symbol of christ's death , burial and resurrection , see rom. 6. 3 , 4. col. 2. 12 , 13. compared with this in 1 pet. 3. 20. which sprinkling or pouring cannot hold forth . 4. but you intimate , that these spiritual metaphorical baptisms are nearly related to the ordinance of baptism . i answer , by pouring floods of water , or by the great effusion of the spirit ; i deny not but the baptism of the spirit may be held forth ; and the baptism of the spirit signifies immersion . ye shall be baptized with the holy ghost , &c. acts 1. 5. the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 says casaubon , is to dip or plunge , in which sense , saith he , the apostles might be said to have been baptized , for the house in which this was done , was filled with the holy ghost , so that the apostles might seem to have been plunged into it , as in a large fi●h-pond . see dr. duveil on acts 1. 4 , 5. the learned casaubon was a pedo-baptist , yet knew better than to assert baptizo is to sprinkle or pour , but to dip or plunge , as you here . friend , what do you mean by saying , all those metaphorical baptisms are nearly related to the ordinance of baptism ; if you intend both signifies sprinkling , i deny it , for both of them signifie dipping or overwhelming , and so doth the baptism of afflictions also , 't is not every small degree of suffering that is the baptism of suffering : great afflictions are so called , and that from the literal and genuine signification of the word baptizo , to dip , to plunge under ; and hence ( as i have elswhere shewed ) vossius notes , that every light affliction is not the baptism of affliction , but like that of david , psal. 32. 6. he drew me out of deep waters ; hence also sufferings and afflictions are called waves , thy waves and thy billows are gone over me , psal. 42. 7. it refers to christ's sufferings , who was overwhelmed with afflictions , even unto blood and death . the same as i have hinted is to be noted as to the baptism of the spirit , it signifies the miraculous effusion of the holy spirit , like that at the day of pentecost , acts 2. 1 , 2. now , in this respect the metaphorical baptisms , are nearly related in signification with the ordinance of baptism : i do confess , for to baptize in the name of the father , &c. is to dip in the name of the father , &c. and for a more full and clear demonstration of this from a multitude of learned men , both ancient and modern . see my late answer to mr. burki● , entituled , the rector rectified , from page 157. to page 206. scapula and stephens , two famous men for their great learning , and accounted masters of the greek tongue , tell us , that baptizo from bapto , as to the first and proper signification , signifies mergo , immergo , item tingo quod fit imm●rgendo , inficere , im●uere , viz. to dip , plunge and overwhelm , put under , cover over , to die in colours , which is done by plunging . grotius saith , it signifies to dip over head and ears . pasor , an immersion , dipping or submersion , it appears you neither know nor enquire after the proper , literal and genuine signification of the word , if you did you would certainly not say , you think there is more to be said for sprinkling ; for i would have you ask such as can tell you , whether in those places in the hebrews , where sprinkling is mentioned , the word signifies baptizing , or whether it is not rantizing , another word and of another signification . and as you regard not the literal , so you mind not the mistical signification of baptism ; which is not chiefly to represent the sprinkling of christ's blood , but to hold forth in a lively figure his death , burial and resurrection , together with our death unto sin , and rising again to walk in newness of life ; as will farther appear in its proper place . see our late annotators on matth. 3. 6. and were baptized of him in jordan . a great part of those who went out to hear john , say they , were baptized , that is , dipped in jordan . tho' they would have the word to signify washing also , which we deny not ; but then say we , 't is such a washing as is by dipping , always , when applyed to this ordinance . 5. you seem very bold , in saying , dipping over h●●d and ears is more like a punishment of criminals than the solemnizing of an ordinance of god. 't is no marvel you reproach us , when you dare cast such contempt upon christ's sacred institution ; it is to me a trembling consideration thus to arraign the wisdom of god : nor will it salve the matter should you say , you do not think baptism is dipping , for it may be so as far as you know ; and if you had read what a multitude of learned men ( who were pedo baptists ) do affirm it is dipping , you would not sure have adventured to assert such a thing : suppose it be found at the last day to be dipping , the lord give you repentance , that you may have this evil , and all others done away through his blood. sure there was as much , nay more cause for during men to have cast such a reflection on that legal ordinance of circumcision . but you say page 6 , 7. we do not find that there was either a river , or pond of water in the jaylors house for himself and all his houshold 〈◊〉 be dipped o● ducked under water , for they were all baptized the same hour of the night , &c. 1. answer , sir , you should take more heed to your words and to what you assert . is it said they were baptized in the jaylors house ? if it 〈◊〉 been done in a house , our saviour needed not to have gone to the river jordan to be baptized ; much less into jordan . nor was there any reason for philip and the e●●●ch to have gone into the water . 2. moreover , doth not the holy scripture tell you that john also was baptizing in aenon near salim , because there was much water , john 3. 23. pray reader note this well ; mind the reason why the holy ghost ●aith , he baptized in aenon ; 't is po●sitively affirmed , because there was much water in that place , intimating clearly that a little water will not serve to baptize persons in : also observe what mr. pools annotations say on this place of scripture ; thus you will find it expressed , viz. it is from this apparent , that both christ and john baptized by dipping the body in water , else they need not have sought places where had been great plenty of water . these are his words that wrote those annotations . and if it be so apparent , 't is as apparent you have been too bold to say , that dipping is more like a punishment of criminals than an ordinance of god. 3. what though we do not read that the jaylor had a river , or pond , in his yard , or near his house ( 't is rediculous to talk of a river or pond in his house ) yet we ought to believe there was water enough by , or near his house , to baptize him and all his , who believed . you see it is granted by your own worthy brethren , baptizing is dipping ; there was n● need for the holy ghost to speak of the place where this water was , or whether it was a pond or river : and certainly they did not baptize some , and sprinkle or ●antize others ; gospel-baptism being but one and the same , as to the subject and mode of administration . 4. how can you say page 7. that they were all baptized in his own house , when the text speaks not any such thing ? 2. how can you presume to assert , that they did not go out of the house ? reader observe the text well , acts 16. 30. and brought them out and said , sirs what must i do to be saved ? vers. 31. and they said , believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved , and thy house ; and they spake unto him and to all that were in his house , vers . 32. and he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes ; and was baptized ●e and all his , straight way . now from these words mr. shute affirms , that they were all baptized in his house , that is , in the jaylors house . 2. that they were baptized the same hour of the night . 3. that they did not go out of the house to a river . if you can see these three things in these verses you have better eyes than i have . as to what was done the same hour of the night 't is directly in plain words asserted , viz. he washed their stripes . as to the time when baptized , it is said , straight way . if you will have the same hour and straight way to intend both the washing their stripes , and their being baptized , it is more than can be gathered therefrom ; but if that be granted , might they not in that hour go a little way out of the house and be baptized ? 't is evident he abuses the sacred text. 4. what reason hath he also to affirm , that none believed but the jaylor himself ? for so he asserts . these are his words . page 7. we do not read of any one soul of them that did believe besides the jaylor himself , before they were baptized ; nor of any one act of faith they exerted . 1. answer , we do read in vers . 34. and when he had brought them into his house he set meat before them , and rejoyced , believing in god with all his house . 2. he will say , may be , this was after they were baptized . i answer , we read not one word of the jaylors believing himself tell then : i mean tho' he believed before , and all his house believed before either were baptized ; yet 't is not expressed by the holy ghost until after they had been baptized , and were come into his house , and he set meat before them believing in god with all his house ; so that here is as much mention made of that act of faith his whole house exerted , as of the jaylors own faith , and as soon also . 3. and is it not evident likewise that they were before out of the jaylors house , else why is it said when he had brought them into his house , &c. that is , after they were baptised ; take heed how you write at another time , lest you provoke god by adding and diminishing from his sacred word . in page 12 ( you say ) you believe , that there were more modes in baptism than one , for some went down into the water , and others were baptised in their houses : but ( say you ) i understand not that any were ducked all under water ; it is possible their faces might be dipped , without plunging the whole body under water , or by pouring water on their faces . 1. answer , that which you again assert . i again affirm , is not true , viz. that some were baptised in their houses ; what you have said of the jaylors being baptised in his own house , all may see is without book , and without the least shadow of proof , nor do you , nor can you prove it of any other . 2. if there were more modes of baptism than one , then there were different significations of the same ordinance , and all of them could not be held forth in the baptism of each person ; for such that were dipped , tho' it was but the head only , were taught the proper mysteries represented thereby , and those that were sprinkled only with water , or had water poured upon them , were taught the proper symbols or signification of that mode ; but how absur'd that would be i leave to all impartial wise men to consider . 3. and if this was so , how then was the way and ordinance of god in their holy administration , one and the same in all the churches of the saints ? you may as well say the modes of the administration of the lords supper were more than one , and so allow of the popish mode therein , who deny the lai●y the cup. is this to make the holy god , a god of order , or of confusion ? 4. if dipping was one mode and sprinkling another , then would baptism and rantism be both ordinances of christ , ask the learned what the word for ( sprinkling ) is in the greek tongue , and if they do not tell you ( if they speak the truth ) 't is ( rantising ) i will confess i have in this done you wrong , and mistook my self : but we deny sprinkling is baptism for dipping of the whole body ; is an essential , not an accident of baptism . baptism is compared to a burial , that 's clear from rom. 6. 3 , 4. as it is confessed by a multitude of learned men who were pedo baptists , as you shall hear anon . now will you say , if the face or head only of a dead corps was covered with earth , and not the whole body , that the corps was buried ? if you should , would you not be laught at ? our saviour was buried , not his head only , but his whole body also in the heart of the earth , and he whose whole body is not covered all over in the earth , is not buried ; no more is he whose whole body is not covered all over in the water-baptised . baptism is a lively figure of the burial of our blessed lord , and of our death to sin and being buried with him both in sign and signification . in page 12. ( say you ) produce one positive command or example to prove , that ever any woman went down into a river , or pond to be dipped , or ducked , all under water in baptism , throughout the book of god , or else take your human invention to your self ; these are your words . answer , if we prove that a woman by name was baptized , then we prove a woman was dipped , because baptized in greek is dipped in english : and the dutch ( as i have elsewhere shewed ) have so translated the word , viz. dooped or dipped in the name of the father , and of the son , and of the holy ghost . now in act. 16. we read of lydia who was baptized , that is , dipped ; and in act. 8. 12. when they believing philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of god , and the name of jesus christ , they were baptized , both men and women : that is , saith the dutch translation , they were dooped both men and women : our translators have left the greek word untranslated into our tongue . what difference is there between baptisma ( greek ) and baptism ? 2. but sir , i cannot but take notice how often you add ducking to dipping : is not this to reproach and cast contempt upon us , and on the ordinance of christ of dipping believers in his name ? the lord open your eyes and give you repentance , in mercy to your poor soul. in page 13. because every sinner god draws to christ must come to him naked , &c so you say it must be in baptism , viz. that part of the man , woman , or child that is baptized must be naked , and so plead only for the baptizing of the face . 1. answer , sir , what reason do you give for this ? have you any ground to run that parallel from any text of scripture ? is it not of your own making and devising ? but since you are for plain texts of scripture for every thing , pray where do you read that any man , or woman● face , or head , was only baptised , or that ●ver john baptists or christs disciples baptised any person naked ? you tell us of the immodesty and evil of such a practice , and that it may tend to gratifie the devil and to the sin of adultery ; certainly such a thing is utterly to be condemned and never was practised , you know well enough , by us whom you reproachfully call anabaptists . as touching what mr. baxter ( to which you might have added dr. featly ) hath said concerning baptizing persons naked ; we know they as well as you , were too much guilty of backbiting , v●lifying , and reproaching of us ; yet they had no ground in the least to cast this odium upon us ; we challenge all men or any person living to produce one instance that ever any man or woman by any of our perswasion was baptized naked . as to what mr. tombs said to mr. baxter , of a former custom in some nations of baptizing naked , it affects not us , nor do i believe there was ever any such custom used among any godly christians . nor did mr. tombs ever so baptise any maids in bewdeley nor any where else . if he said he could do it , it was doubtless his weakness so to speak ; but i am not bound to believe all that mr. baxter hath wrote of worthy mr. tombs ; but since they are both dead we will say no more to that ; but any thing you can catch up you resolve 't is plain to make the greatest use of imaginable to reproach your godly neighbours and the truth of christ. in pape 15. the anabaptists ( you say ) make a great deal of pudder and stir about the apostles words in romans 6. 3 , 4. and have pressed them into their service ; the words are as followeth ; therefore we are buried with him by baptism ; they will ( say you ) have it that this respects burying in water over head and ears in baptism , and therefore they make it an argument for dipping : the apostle ( you say ) seems to have been stirring them up , and puting them in mind of their baptismal vows and obligations : it may be as well to children of believing parents that were grown up , as to themselves ; for in vers . 3 saith he , know ye not that so many of us as were baptised into christ , were baptized into his death ? that is ( say you ) as they were baptized into all the priviledges , that were purchased by the death of christ , so they were baptised also into the sufferings of christ , for they were obliged by their baptismal covenant to take up their cross and follow the lord jesus christ , &c. 1. answer , you shall now see whether 't is only those whom you call anabaptists , that make such improvement of this text ( you say pudder and stir about it ) or whether others who were and are pedo baptists , do not make the like use of it , viz. to prove baptism is an image , symbol or representation of christs death , and burial and resurrection , together with our death unto sin , and vivification to a newness of life : but before i shall quote the authors i must tell you the apostle is not in the context speaking of the sufferings of believers , not a word of bearing the cross : therefore from the scope and coherence of the text you cannot infer any such conclusion as you do . pray reader take notice of the 5th chapter and the beginning of this 6th , and see if i or this man speak the truth of the texts in , vers . 1. of this chapter ; the holy apostle says thus , i. e. what shall we say then ? shall we continue in sin that grace may abound , god forbid ; how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein , vers . 2. know you not that so many of us as have been baptized into jesus christ , were baptized into his death , vers . 3. therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death : that like as christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father , even so we also should walk in newness of life , vers . 4. for as we have been planted together in the likeness of his death , we shall be also into the likeness of his resurrection , vers . 5. is here a word of the cross , or suffering for christ , or that we are baptized to shew we must suffer martyrdom with christ ? no , no , unless it be the death or mortification of sin or the old man. tho' i deny not but such that are baptized must look for suffering . you say , our saviour calls his suffering his baptism , and a blood bloody baptism it was ; but i have a baptism to be baptized with , and how am i straightned till it be accomplished ? now ( you say ) the apostle draws his argument from the premises in verses 4 , 5 , p. 16. answer , 't is very true , the apostle doth draw his argument from vers . 4 , 5. &c. but not from luk. 12. 50. the text you mention about christs baptism of suffering , so that 't is evident to all you have abused this sacred text also , and prest it in , to serve your purpose : pray read all the annotators you can get on the place particularly , mr. pools , and see if any favour your exposition of it . 2. tho' i have said enough to silence this man or any other upon this text , rom. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. in two treatises , yet left they come not into the author or readers hand , i shall repeat some passages once again . let all men consider in the fear of god , and take notice of the gracious design , and condescention of our blessed saviour in his instituting of the two great ordinances of the gospel , viz. the lords supper and baptism ; for as that of the lords supper doth in a lively figure represent the breaking of his body , and the pouring forth of his blood , so the ordinance of baptism doth as clearly ( if rightly administed ) represent or hold forth the death , burial , and resurrection of the same lord jesus : together with our death to sin and rising again to walk in newness of life ; and that this appears from this text and that in col. 2. 12. shall , god assisting , be evinced . the whole church of the romans , and every member thereof were to reckon themselves dead to sin , and were bound to live no longer therein , because by baptism , as in a lively figure they had held forth the same thing , nay by that baptismal covenant they were obliged to live and walk in newness of life . see pools annotations on the place , where you will find these words , viz. he seems to allude to the manner of baptizing in those warm countries , which was to dip or plunge the party baptised , and as it were to bury him for a while under water : see the like phrase , col. 2. 12. baptism doth not only represent our mortification , and death unto sin , but our progress and perseverance therein ; burial implies a continuing under death , so mortification is a continual dying unto sin : look as after the death and burial of christ there followed his resurrection , so it must be with us , we must have communion with , and conformity to the lord jesus christ , in his resurrection as well as in his death ; both these are represented and sealed to us , in the sacrament of baptism , &c. thus pools annotations . the assembly also in their annotations on this text say much the same things , viz. in this phrase the apostle seems to allude to the ancient manner of baptizing , which was to dip the party baptized , and as it were to bury them under water for a while , and then to raise them up again out of it , to represent the burial of the old man and the resurrection to newness of life . diodate in his annotations saith the same . cajetan upon the place says we are buried with christ by baptism into death ; by the ceremony of baptism , because he ( that is , the party baptized ) is put under water , and by this carries a similitude of him that was buried who was put under the earth . now because none are buried but dead men , from this very thing that we are buried in baptism we are assimulated to christ buried , and when he was buried . tilenus a great protestant writer in his dispute on this text page 88 , 89. speaks fully to this case : baptism , saith he , is the first sacrament of the new testament instituted by christ , in which there is an exact analogy between the sign , and the thing signified . the outward rite in baptism is threefold . 1. immersion into the water 2. abiding under the water 3. a resurrection out of the water . the form of baptism , viz. external and essential , is no other than the analogical proportion which the signs keep with the things signified thereby ; for the properties of the water , washing away the defilements of the body , does in a most suitable similitude set forth the efficacy of christ's blood in blotting out of sin ; so dipping into the water in a most lively similitude sets forth the mortification of the old man , and rising out of the water , the vivification of the new man — the same plunging into the water ( saith he ) holds ▪ forth to us that horrible gulph of divine justice , in which christ for our sakes for a while was in a manner swallowed up ; abiding under the water ( how little a time so ever ) denotes his descent into hell , even the very deepest of lifelesness , which lying in the sealed or guarded sepulchre , he was accounted as one dead : rising out of the water holds forth to us a lively similitude of the conquest which this dead man got over death ; in like manner we being baptized into his death and buried with him , should rise also with him , and go on in a new life . thus far the learned tilenus . sir , 't is time for you to lay to heart what you have done in trampling upon dipping or baptising , that is such a glorious significant ordinance as these authors tell you , and no doubt speak the mind of god : and in the room of it exalt an humane and an insignificant invention . doth rantism or sprinkling bear any proportion to those great mysteries , here mentioned ? doth that figure o● hold forth the burial of christ , or that of the old man ? can a few drops on the face represent that ; or what representation is there in that of a resurrection ? alass ! you know not what you do . ●ut to proceed . ambrose saith , water is that wherein the body is plunged , to wash away all sin . ( 1 suppose 〈◊〉 means 't is a sign of this , ) i. e. that all sin is buried . chrysostom saith , that the old man is buried and drowned in the immersion under water ; and when the baptized person is afterwards raised up out of the water , it represents the resurrection of the new man to newness of life . 〈◊〉 us epist. ad tradit . philadelph . saith , that ●●l●●ving in his death we may be made partakers of his resurrection by baptism . baptism was given in memory of the death of our lord. we perform the symbols of his death ( mark it reader ) not of the pouring forth of , or sprinkling of his blood , nor of the spirit ; no , no ; but as these authors say , 't is a symbol of his death , burial and resurrection , which sprinkling in no manner of way can represent . justin martyr saith , we know but one saving baptism , inregard there is but one resurrection from the dead , of which baptism is an image . and from hence we know nothing of your infants sprinkling . see more in sir norton knatchbul's notes printed at oxford 1677. who to the same purpose quotes basil the great , lactantius , bernard , &c. mr. perkins 2. vol. cap. 3. on gal. saith , the dipping of the body signifies mortification or fellowship with christ in his death , the staying under the water signifies the burial of sin , and coming out of the water the resurrection from sin to newness of life : and in another place saith , the ancient custom of baptizing was to dip all the body of the baptized in water . to these ancient writers let are once again add here for your further conviction , what some of the chefest prelates of the church of england have very lately said on , rom. 6. 3 , 4. the reverend dr. sharp the present lord arch-bishop of york , in a sermon preached before the queens majesty on easter day , march 27 , 1692. saith he , and this in antient times was taught every christian in and by his baptism ; when ever a person was baptized , he was not only to profess his faith in christs death and resurrection , but he was to look upon himself as obliged in correspondence therewith to mortifie his former carnal affections and to enter upon a new state of life . and the very form of baptism ( saith he ) did lively represent this obligation to them : for what did their plunging under water signifie , but their undertaking , in imitation of christs death and burial , to forsake all their former evil courses ; as their ascending out of the water did their engagement to lead a holy and spiritual life ? this our apostle ( saith he ) doth more than once declare to us thus , rom. 6. 3. 4. we are buried with christ by baptism unto death , that like as christ was raised up by the glory of the father , so we should walk in newness of life . thus dr. sharp . dr. fowler ( now lord bishop of gl●cester ) in his book of design of christianity page 90. on rom. 6. 3 , 4. saith , christians being plunged into the water , signifies their undertaking and obliging themselves in a spiritual sense , to die and to be buried with jesus christ in an utter renouncing and forsaking all their sins , that so answering to his resurrection they may live a holy & godly life . also dr. sherlock ( dean of st. pauls ) in his sermon , charity without usury , on rom. 6. 3 , 4. saith , our conformity to the death and resurrection of our saviour , consists in dying to sin and walking in newness of life : which saith he , st. paul tells us is represented by the external ceremony of baptism , and rising out of his watry grave a new creature . moreover , unto these let me add what dr. tillotson , the present lord arch-bishop of canterbury hath wrote ; see his book stiled sermons on several occasions 5th . edit page 188 , 189. speaking also of the same text , rom. 6. 3 , 4. antiently , saith he , those who were baptised put off their garments , which signified the putting off the body of sin ; and were immers'd and buried in the water , to represent the death of sin ; and then did rise up again out of the water , to signifie their entrance upon a new life . and to these customs the apostle alludes when he says , how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein ? know ye not that so many of us that were baptized into jesus christ , were baptized into his death , &c. dr duveil on act. 8. page 292 , 293. cites a most learned anonimous french protestant writer in his answer to the famous bishop of meaux , speaking thus , viz. 't is most certain , saith he , that baptism hath not hitherto been administred , otherwise than by sprinkling , by the most of protestants . but truly this sprinkling is an abuse , thus custom which without any accurate examination , saith he , they retained from the romish church , in like manner as many other things , makes their baptism very defective ; it corrupteth its institution and ancient use , and that nearness of similitude which is needful should be betwixt it and faith , repentance and resurrection . this reflection of mr. b●ssuet deserveth to be seriously considered , to wit , saith he , that this use of plunging hath continued for the space of a whole thousand and three hundred years ; hence we may understand that we did not carefully as it was meet , examine things which we have received from the romish church . calvin also saith l. 4. c. 16. that baptism is a form or way of burial ; and none but such as are already dead to sin , or have repented from dead works , are to be buried . but now say we , sprinkling and pouring is not the form of baptism , because not the form of a burial ; nor can infants be the subjects of it ; because as the learned observe , baptism is a symbol of present , not of future regeneration ; 't is an outward sign of that death unto sin , which the party baptised passed under then , or ought to have had before baptis'd ; they then professed themselves to be dead to sin , i. e. when they were buried with christ in their baptism , for the argument of the apostle lies in that respect , how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein ? know you not , that so many of us who were baptized into christ were baptized into his death , both in sign and signification ? and therefore as dr. sherlock says , they rise out of that watry grave as new born creatures ; it denotes not only what they should be hereafter , but what they were actually at that time . so that as this text and arguments drawn there from utterly condemn sprinkling and pouring , as that which is not christs true baptism , so it excludes infants from being the true subjects thereof , because in them appears no such death to sin , nor can they be said to come out of that watry grave as new born creatures . i will only quote one author more and proceed , and that is learned zanchy on col. 2. 12. there are ( saith he ) two parts in regeneration i. e. mortification and vivification , that is called a burial with christ , this a resurrection ; with christ ; the sacrament of both these is baptism ; in which we are overwhelmed or buried , and after that do come forth and rise again : it may not be said truly but sacramentally of all that are baptised , that they are buried wich christ and raised with him , but only of such who have true faith . thus zanchy . now sir , see what a stir and pudder ( as you call it ) these pedo-paptists make on this text , rom. 6. 3 , 4. col. 2. 12. to prove baptism is dipping or a figure of a burial ? would you not have us give the true sense of the word wherein we concur with all learned men ? i hope , by this time reader , thou art fully satisfied that this man hath said nothing to weaken our arguments or grounds for dipping , tho' ' twice as much we have said on this account , in that treatise called the rector rectified ; but this shall suffice here , as to the mode of baptizing . chap. ii. wherein mr. shutes reply to mr. hercules collins answer about habitual faith is considered , detected and clearly refuted ; proving that infants are not required to believe , nor are they ( without a miracle ) capable so to do , nor are they intended in those places of scripture that enjoyns faith on the adult . before i proceed to take notice of what this man hath said about infants having habitual faith , i shall note two or three things by the way . 1. 't is very remarkable , and worthy the readers observation , to see how the asserters of infant baptism differ among themselves about that faith they suppose to be in infants ; for , as i noted in by answer to mr. smythies cold resined , page 144 , some of them , as thomas aquinas asserts , they have the faith of the church , that being intailed upon all who are within the pale thereof ; others say , they have the faith of the gossips or sureties ; thus the church of england , &c. musculus seems to assert , they have an imputed faith ; mr. blake intimates , they have a dogmatical faith only ; mr. baxter would have it be a saving faith ; but does not tell us how it agrees or differs from the faith of the adult ; some as mr. danvers observes , say , 't is a physical ; some , a metaphysical faith some a hyperphysical faith : some say , they are born believers , which proceeds from their patents being in the covenant and being believers ; but this is to intail grace to nature , and regeneration to generation ; nay , and to assert , all are not children of wrath by nature , or as they are born and come into the world ; others say , they are made believers by baptism , that ordinance conveying grace , as mr. rothwell . this man asserts , they have habitual faith ; the like do the athenian society seem to intimate . but which of all these shall we give credit to ? the truth is , they all speak without book , having no ground from gods word to say what they do . 2. we desire it may be considered and carefully heeded , lest we still are abused as mr. collins hath been , that we stedfastly believe and readlly grant it , as an article of our faith , that all infants are under the guilt and stain of original sin as they come into the world , and that no infant can be saved but through the blood and imputation of christs righteousness : and also we do believe , that all those dying infants who are ●aved , god doth in some way or another ( which is not known to us ) sanctify them ; for no unclean thing can enter into the heavenly jerusalem . see our confession of faith. 3. we do believe , that no dying infant can be saved that is not in the covenant of grace , for t is ( through or ) by the grace , mercy and inconceivable love of god , as 't is contained in the covenant of grace , that christ , and all blessings of christ , are made over to all the elect , whether adult or little infants . we therefore never asserted , that no infants of believers , or of unbelievers either , are in the covenant of grace ; but we do assert , all elect infants are in it ; yet we do deny , that the infants of believers as such , or as so considered , as bring their natural offspring , are in the covenant of grace . having noted these three things , i shall proceed . first , take what mr. collins hath asserted in his answer to mr. shutes pretended antidote ; see page 3. viz. that infants are saved by christ we have asserted , because we know of no other name but jesus ; but that they are saved by faith , habitual faith in christ , i must confess i never read in all the book of god ; i could wish he could shew me the chapter where christ said any such thing , i. e. that infants are saved by habitual faith. and what would this man make a new bible , have a new rule , to tell us of things never heard of ? these are mr. collins's words , take mr. shutes reply ; pray look into that chapter , saith he , where you find that god hath declared two ways for saving elect persons ; one for the saving of aying infants , without the grace of faith ; and the other for saving adult believers by faith : and then he asketh two other as impertinent queries . but 〈◊〉 last he sixes u●on one text to prove habitual faith in infants , viz joh. 3. 9. whosoever is born of god doth not commit sin , for his seed remaineth in him ; and he cannot sin because he is born of god. answer , we say there is but one way to be saved , and that one way is jesus christ ; 't is by his sacrifice , by his blood , by his merits , that is , by the imputation of his righteousness ; but that there is the same way or mode and no other , for the application of the blood and merits of christ respecting elect dying infants , as there is for the adult ; and that god doth not , cannot sanctify dying infants any other way but by infusing the same habit of faith , which he infuseth into the adult who believe , he should prove . god is a free agent , and may have ways to apply the blood of christ and sanctify dying infants , that we know not of . 2. as to the text he brings to prove habitual faith in infants , of believers , if it be not brought to prove that , that seed or divine habit is in infants of believers , as such , it does not concern the present controversie ; 't is joh. 3. 9 which we will now consider and examine . and let it be well noted , that the seed remaineth in him , that sacred habit abides in him , that hath it ; it remains and shall remain in every soul in whom it is infused ▪ grace in the habit can't be lost , 't is a well or spring of living water , that springeth up unto eternal life , joh. 4. 14. christ hath prayed , that our faith fail not ; that is , the seed or habit thereof ; for the act , in the exercise of it in part may fail now and then ; if the infants of believers have the habit of faith in them , be sure those habits will appear , and they must be true believers and be saved , because the seed remaineth in them . 3. why do you not answer mr. collins argument , page 7. of his reply to you , faith he , those children of believers which die in an unconverted state , either never had the habits of grace , or else if they had them they have lost them ; but there is no losing . habits of grace , ergo they never had them . reader , see what mr. shute hath said to this argument in page 42. of his last book , these are his words , viz. therefore i will put it to a fair issue , which shall be this , produce me but one place in all my book where i have asserted this you have charged upon me , and i will turn anabaptist immediately , &c. answer , if you have not said that the infants of believers as such have habitual faith , what is it you argue for , why do you plead for the habit of faith to be in them , if you say you plead only for habitual faith to be in elect infants ? 1. then i hope you will only have elect infants to be baptised , and how do you know which they are , since they can make no confession of faith ? 2. moreover , i also conceive you may allow baptism to the infants of unbelievers : for sure you dare not deny but some of their seed are comprehended in gods eternal election . 3. the controversie or difference between us and you lies not how dying elect infants are sanctified , &c. whether by the habit of faith or by some other way , by which god may apply christs merits to them , &c. but whether the infants of believers as such have the habit of faith , or faith in any sense , by which they come to have right to that ordinance , what have we to do with dying infants ? did you baptise no infants but such that dye and were sure that all the dying infants of believers were elected , it might seem some what to the purpose ; tho' not so much neither as you may imagin ; for , i do affirm you have as much ground to give them the lords supper as you have to baptise them , because such who are the proper subjects of baptism , have an immediate right according to the order of the gospel to the lords supper . you must have a command or authority from christs word to baptise them , or you ought not to do it ; but you have no such command nor authority . 4. the habit of faith without the act gives not a right to that sacred ordinance , for faith and a confession of faith is required : but i must confess i see not how there can be the habit and not the act ; for tho' the habit may be antecedent to the act in order of nature , yet not in order of time in any believer : prove , if you can , any person that was a believer , had the habit of faith , and yet not the act of faith at the same time : for as all learned men generally agree , as soon as life is infused into a dead sinner , there is heat , motion , activity , &c. the habit of grace is a vital principle , and as they say , 't is naturally active , it is a spring of perpetual motion , as mr. charnock shews . 5. you say infants may believe : and you would have them to be such children of the jaylors houshold , who are said to believe , and yet would have it to be only faith in the habit : but all men of understanding know believing refers to the act or exercise of faith ; you may as well say the jaylor had no more than the habit of faith , for read the words again , viz. be rejoyced believing in god with all his house . 6. if infants believe they know the object of their faith ; can any believe in him , whom they know not ? faith all men ( i think ) agree has its seat in the will and understanding , the understanding is illuminated and sees the need , necessity and excellency of jesus christ , and so assents that he is the only saviour as well as the will consents , bends and bows down in subjection to him : and can any either young or old be said to be believers or to have faith , and yet in them is nothing of this ? but say you page 22. for as much as the creature is wholly passive in the reception of grace , and christ is all in all , from the foundation of mans salvation to the topstone , therefore a young child in the womb or cradle is as capable of being born again as well as an old one , for both young and old are dead in sin and trespasses before they are converted . answer , you seem to refer to the almighty power of god : 't is very true , he can if he please infuse grace into a babe in the womb or cradle , nay of stones raise up children to abraham ; but the question is not what god can do , but what god doth do : though we do believe the creature is passive in the first reception . of grace , yet how do you prove god doth regenerate infants in the womb or cradle ? gods grace is infused into fit and proper subjects ; and tho the grace by which we believe is from god , yet 't is the creature that doth believe . why do we say that irrational creatures are not fit soil for the seed of the word ? is it not because they have no understanding ? and tho' infants have rational souls yet till they come to maturity they have no knowledg nor understanding ; the design of god in sowing the seed or habit of grace is , that the fruits thereof may be produced and brought forth : but you must say the fruits of grace do not appear in babes , which is love , joy , peace , longsuffering gentleness , goodness , faith , meckness , temperance , &c. gal. 5. 22. nor is it possible it should without a miracle . such as is the cause , such is the effect or product of it . how god doth sanctify dying infants ( i speak as to the mode of it ) no mortal man i am sure can tell ; if it is by infusing grace , let it be so , tho' it can't be proved whilst the world stands , yet gods design therein could not be the same in them as it is in others ; he expecteth no such fruit from them : nor can any gospel ordinance be the right of such infants nor any other , without a precept or example from gods word . baptism ( as you have heard ) is a significant ordinance , 't is an outward sign of mortification of sin and of vivification to a new life , and ●aith is required in respect of the act of it touching the gracious promise of god made to all such who are the true subjects thereof , see what dr. taylor late bishop of down speaks about this notion of infants having habitual faith , viz. are there any acts precedent ▪ concomitant or consequent to this pretended habit ? this strange invention is absolutely without art , without scripture , reason , or authority . and further , saith he , if any run for succour to that exploded cresphu●eton , that infants have faith or any other inspired habit of i know not what , or how , we desire no more advantage than that they are constrained to answer without revelation , against reason , common sense and all experience . again , he saith , how can any man know they have faith , since he never saw any sign of it , neither was he told so by any that could tell ? thus dr. taylor . in page 22. he strangely reflects upon mr. collins , and endeavours to infer that from his arguments , which no way can in honesty be drawn therefrom , viz. that the whole strength of his arguments against infant baptism naturally tends to the making adult believers the authors of their own faith and eternal salvation . answer , let all men consider the nature of this mans spirit ; what little ground there is for this conclusion will soon appear to all that read mr. collins arguments ; doth he deny the infusion of sacred habits in believers , or that 't is not by the grace of god alone , that they are quickened and regenerated , because he knows not that infants have the like sacred habits infused into them . we say the same with worthy mr. marshal , in page 78. of his book ; which you recite in the 24th . page of yours , viz. that union between christ and the soul is fully accomplished by christ giving the spirit of faith to us , even before we can act faith in the reception of him ; because by this grace or spirit of faith , the soul is inclined to an active receiving of christ. what of this ? tho' 't is thus in the adult , must this spirit of faith or the habit of faith be therefore in infants of relievers also ? sir , let me ask you two or three questions here before i leave this . is regeneration in your infants that are regenerated , the fruit or product of that spirit of faith or habits which you plead for , to be infused into them when infants ? sure if they had any such habits , when infants , they need no other inspired habits when they are grown up . 2. i would know since you speak only of those habits to be in believers infants , whether they were infused before they were born or after ? 3. seeing some infants of infidels or unbelievers may be elected , nay and it appears to us by gods working upon the hearts of such when grown up , ( that they were comprehended in his electing love ) had not they likewise when infants habitual faith and so an equal right to baptism ? in page 26 you say , all the seed of believers under the gospel do partake of all the benefite and priviledges of the covenant of grace , as much as ever the seed of professing jews did under the law. answer , i say so too ; and more : all our children partake of greater benefits and priviledges of the gospel of the new covenant than theirs did of it , under the law , ( as to outward dispensation and revelation ) when grown up , set under the clear and plain revelation and ministration of it : but of what this , therefore say you , they have as good , a right to the initiating seal or token of the covenant , namely baptism , as ever the jews children had to the initiating seal of the covenant , namely circumcision . answer , you go too fast ; how do you prove that baptism is an initiating seal of the covenant , some call it an initiating rite into the visible church , but is it indeed an ordinance of initiation into the covenant of grace ; then your infants are not in the covenant before baptized , i know nothing to be the seal of the covenant but the holy spirit , eph. 1. 13 , 14. and cap. 4. 30. as touching circumcision , that was i grant a rite that belonged to the male infants of abraham and his seed , if it was initiating it , only let them into that national church , but i doubt not but that the seed of abraham according to the flesh , were all both males & females born members of that church . 2. we shall prove by and by , that circumcision did not appertain unto the covenant of grace ; read the arguments in the 1st and 2d . part of the ax layd to the root of the trees : and when you write again answer them , for you have not touched one of them ; yet sir you have a great deal of work cut out all ready for you , before this comes to your hand . but to proceed , you in page 26. go on to prove what you have asserted , viz. that it is so ( say you ) doth clearly appear from our saviour christs carriage and department towards those little children that were brought to him . you say those children were the children of believers . answ. i deny it , se how you are able to prove it , there is no such thing recorded of them , viz. that they were the children of believers : again , page 27. you say christ did bless them with spiritual blessings . answer , friend , may not you be found ( as far as you know ) to assert false things of jesus christ ? is it said he blessed them with spiritual blessings ? but since you know so well , pray what spiritual blessings were they ? you confess he did not baptize them ; did he them give them habitual faith for that blessing you plead for to be in infants ? reader , 't is evident christs way of healing the sick , was by putting or laying his hand on such , how do we know but it was the blessing of healing , he prayed for , and blessed them with ? but mr. shute tells us ; god out of the mouths of babes and sucklings hath perfected his praise , page 23. answer , now you have hit it . i do not doubt but those babes , out of whose mouths god hath perfected his praise , but that they had more than habitual faith. friend , what babes were they peter speaks of ? 1 pet. 2. 1 , 2. that he calls new-born babes , out of the mouths of such babes , god hath ordained strength no doubt . you say christ prayed for none , but for the elect. page 27. answer , not for spiritual blessings ▪ but how do you know he never prayed for healing , and other temporal blessings , for such , that were not of his elect ? you lay down strange and bold assertions . you say page 28. as soon as adult heathens were conversed and baptized , if they had children , they were all baptized also with them , as being part of themselves . answer , i deny that likewise ; shew what heathens children , after the parents believed and were baptized their children also were baptized . 2. if children be part of their parents , then certainly if the parents go to heaven all their children must likewise , for the whole of believers shall be saved , not a part of them only . also if the children be part of their parents , and a part of the person , namely the face , only is sufficient to be baptized , then say i the parents baptism may serve for the child : and the truth is , as the bishop of down noted , viz. since as some affirm the parents faith serves for the child , why may not the parents baptism serves for the child also● you say , that little children by the cooperation of the holy spirit may have faith , and the heart of an adult person is no more capable of changing himself than a● infant , and quote luther in the case . answer , 't is true little children may have faith if god please to work a miracle , and inspire them with his spirit : but doth god do this to the infants of believers ● i ask also , whether the infants of 〈◊〉 not as capable of this faith ? nay i●rffirm ▪ that as many of the children of infidels and unbelievers may have the cooperation of the spirit in them as the infants of believers . disprove it if you can ? 2. doth not god work ordinarily upon such subjects as have the exercise of reason , and understanding : tho' the grace is given by which we do believe , yet is not the act ours . can god be said to believe for us , or can there be faith in any subject , and yet no knowledg of the object , no nor one rational act exerted ? but ( if this be so , that the infant believes himself ) why do you hint in the text words , that a man is as truly bound to lay hold of the promise for his children , as for him . himself ? there 's no need for the parents to believe for their children , if they can believe for themselves : sir p●ay resolve the doubt , say what faith ▪ ' t is . infants have is it their own , do they believe themselves or their parents for them ? to put this out of doubt , you in page 20. go about to prove infants did believe , and so may believe ; the text you bring is that in mat. 18. 2 ▪ 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. and jesus called a little child unto him , and set him in the midst of them , and said , verily i say unto you , except ye be converted , and become as little children ▪ , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven . vers. 6. but whos● shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me , &c. here you make a great stir telling us that christ speaks of old disciples and of young disciples , page . 33. here is the young disciple ( be ) 2 the old disciples ( them ) 3 christ takes his observation from the believing young disciple , &c. answer , i utterly deny that child , or those little children , who are positively said to be believe in christ , to be infants . 1. for 't is expresly said , christ called that child to him he was able to come , no doubt whom christ called : could an infant do that ? 2. to put the matter out of doubt , 't is evidentas to matter of fact , god hath in our days wrought by his spirit , savingly on several little children , some three or four years old , others about six or seven , as mr. jenaway in his token for little children shews and names the children : now it might be such a little child christ called to him , and who did belive in him , and 't is such little children he speaks of that do believe in him , who are able to believe ; but what is this to prove infants ●o believe and are able to believe . if this be so , you need not plead only for the habit of faith to be in them , for now you think you have proved they have faith it self , for believing refers not only to the habit , but to the act also . 3ly . besides , if we may not conclude they were such little children , yet ( as mr. collins observes and divers others ) it may intend such believers who have such and such qualities that are in young children , viz. harmless , humble , innocent , &c. as paul speaks , in malice be you children . from hence you say , 535. that it appears infallibly that little children of believing parents are church members , and have an indubitable right unto the ordinance of baptism , &c. answer , i grant those little children who do believe in christ , have an indubitable right to baptism and to the lords supper also , as soon as they are baptised : but not infants . in page 28. you say that timothy was baptised when he was a child . answer , i am subject to think he was very young when he did first believe and was baptised , may be he was a child ; but prove he was baptised when he was an infant and i will become a pedo baptist. and since his mother and grand-mother were both believers , no doubt had he been baptised when an infant christ would have left it upon record , to have put an end to this controversie , which he knew and foresaw in after times would arise . but this is no whereto be found , so that you are wiser then what is written . 2. but sir , are your infants church members with you ; doth the church you belong unto consists of such as of the adult ? i thought none accounted their infants to be church members but those who are for national churches ; infant baptism seem as if it was continved according to the nature of such a constitution , and not for a gospel church constitution , which consisteth only of a congregation of godly men and w●men . in page 34. you positively affirm , this is the church of which a● the seed of believers , are members as much now as ever the jews , children were under the law. for it is the same church state , tho' in another dress or under another dispensation . our saviour did not destroy the church state when he ●●communicated the unbelieving jews &c. 1. answer , i thought that the church you are a member of was congregational , not national , and i am satisfied that it is so , and that they do own no national church to be a true church of christ , i mean such that consisteth of parents ; and their children as under the law in the national church of the jews . 2. i deny that all or any infants of believers are members of the gospel church ▪ ; prove it if you can ; and also i do affirm the state or constitution of the gospel church , is not the same now as it was under the law : 't is evident all the jewish infants were born members of that church ; it being national . but now the church is built up of living stones consisting of the spiritual seed of abraham only , not of the natural or carnal seed of believers . and i am perswaded , tho' your . reverend pastor is for infant baptism , yet he will not allow of what you here affirm . but sir , if your infants are all born church members , how can baptism be an initiating rite to them . i allow not , nor you neither , any person to be a right regular member of a gospel church until baptized : but you , in page 35. say , that little children of believing parents are church members , and so seem to argue for their being baptized ; but if all believers seed are born church members , ours are as good ▪ church members as yours , tho' not baptized . you in the last place seem greatly to miss the matter in one great case , viz. you distinguish not between the visible and invisible church under the law : the invisible church is but one and the same in every age , that consisteth only of all the elect ; we grant , but the visible church is not the same now as it was under the law. that the whole state and constitution of the national church of israel or natural seed of abraham is gone and dissolved , your learned brethren will not deny , and there is no national church in its room constituted by our lord jesus christ. so that 't is not an excommunication of the jewish only , but an absolute dissolution of their church state , as mr. cotton , mr. charnock , dr. owen , and many others assert . in page 99 , 100 , &c. you again positively declare , that the state of the christ is the same now as it was under the law , and hath the same attributes , and made of the same ingredients , and hath the same titles , and lives upon the same food , and was a baptized church , and 〈◊〉 in the same relation to god and christ as the gospel church doth now . you proceed to make these things to appear . 1. you begin with the attributes of the church under the law. viz. if you obey my voice indeed and keep my covenant , then ●e shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people &c. and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests , and 〈◊〉 holy nation , exod. 19. 5 , 6. you quote also , psal. 135. 4. 1. answer , tho' they upon their obedience and keeping gods covenant had such promises , yet 't is evident that they were a national church : god took the whole house of israel into a visible external covenant church state , and as so considered separated them from all other nations and people in the world , to be a peculiar people and treasure ( in that covenant ) unto himself ; and in this sense , he was said federally , or by covenant to be married to the whole house of israel , and became an husband , to them ; see jer. 31. 31. god there made a promise to israel and judab , viz. i will make a new covenant , &c. not according to the covenant i made with y ur fathers in the day that i took them by the hand , to bring them out of the land of egypt , which covenant they broke , although i was an husband to them , saith the lord , v. 32. now in that covenant god made with them when he brought them out of the land of egypt , he gave them their legal church state and many external earthly blessings , laws and carnal ordinances ; and like as a husband cares and provides for the wife , so did god care and provide for them and preserve them so long as that law ( i mean the law of their husband ) did continue : but that law is now dead , rom. 7.4 . and god is now no longer such a husband to them : nor hath he married any other external nation or people ( as so considered ) in the world : but now god in the gospel covenant is an husband indeed to them he was a typical husband ; nor is the gospel church married to the lord by that old ▪ covenant law , but by the new covenant , which is not according to the old : moreover , they not keeping that covenant were not such a peculiar treasure to the lord , as believers are to him in the new covenant : christ hath undertook for all the true members of his mystical body , they are married to him for ever and they are to him an eternal excellency , therefore the legal jewish visible church differed from the gospel church — yet 2. i also grant that all those under the law who were members of the invisible church , or elect ones , were as choice a treasure to god as any believers are now , and in the like safe condition . 3. 't is evident that the legal church of the jews was not made up of the same matter , or ingredients , as the gospel church is ; for according to the institution of the gospel church , none ought to be made members of it but believers only . but in the jewish church the fleshy or carnal seed were admitted by gods ordination and appointment , god did allow of the fleshy seed as such then to be members of that church , but he doth not allow of such to be in the gospel church . you mention , in page 100. that in exod. 25. 31. and thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold , &c. and you hint this was the church and the ordinances of god : and therefore the ingredients are the same under the gospel as the church was under the law. answer , i though the candlestick of pure gold had been a shaddow or figure of some thing to come , and that it referred not to the legal church , but to the church under the gospel , and this being so , how can this prove that church consisted of the same matter and ingredients as the gospel church does ? 3. you say that the church of god under the mosaick law , lived upon the same spiritual food as the church of christ doth now , &c. page 93. 1. answer , all that were of the mystical body of christ then , 't is true , did feed on the same spiritual food . 2. but pray consider what you say . can any of those that feed on the flesh of christ and drink his blood , perish ? for 't is evident , many who ( are said to ) eat of the same spiritual meat , and drank the same spiritual drink , perished in the wilderness , 1 cor. 10. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. 3. they all eat the same manna that caleb and joshua did , which is called heavenly or spiritual meat , and drank of the water out out of the rock that was a typ , of christ , the jews , say our annotators , eat the same spiritual meat that we do now ; they in the type , we in the antitype ; they as a church had but the shell comparatively , and we the kernel : they had the shadow , we the substance ; their ordinances were called carnal ordinances and their promises earthly , ours are spiritual ordinances , and better promises : therefore the church under the gospel does not feed on the same food which the church did under the law. 4. you say the church under the law was baptised , men women and children . and there can be no true church but what is so now . you mention that in 1 cor. 10. 1. 2. here is a church , say you baptized , &c. and not one of them dipped or duck'd over head and ears . answer , you mistake , the jewish church was no baptized church , they had no ordinance of baptism , this was but a typical baptism ; but if they were ) as they passed through the sea ) baptised , and yet only sprinkled , by rain faling upon them from the cloud , then you will make the church of israel all anabaptists , for they were all sprinkled after they passed through the sea , see exod. 24 ● . and moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people , both the book and all the people , heb. 9. ●9 . 't is evident you by this render them to be all rebaptised , should what you say be granted . 2. but sprinkling is not baptising ; nor was that a real , but a typical baptism , i. e. when they passed through the sea ; nor was their children any more baptised , than was that mixt people which were with them ; for so 't is said and much cattel also : but that typical baptism bears great analogy with dipping , as mr. pools annotations well observes on the place . the apostle useth that term in regard ( say they ) of the great analogy betwixt baptism ( as it was used ) the persons going down into the waters and being dipped in them , and the israelites going down into the sea , the great receptacle of water ; tho' the water at that time was gathered on heaps on either side of them , yet they seemed buried in the water . this they give ( from some ) as the most probable sense of the place . and , this being so you need not call the anabaptists to wonder at , what you thought you had got here . do you think that among the jews that passed through the sea , there were not some unbelievers as well as among that mixt people ; will you plead for the baptising of prophane and ungodly persons ? for this will justify their being baptised as far forth as that of the infant seed of believers . thus i have answered all your arguments , to prove there is no difference betwixt the state and nature of the gospel church and that under the law ; and further to convince you of your mistake in pleading for such a church , take dr. o●●ens sentiments and some other reverend independents of a gospel church , and of the dissolution of the jewish church . question , what is an instituted church of the gospel ? ( he answers . ) answer , a society of persons called out of the world , or their natural worldly state , by the administration of the word and spirit , unto obedience of the faith or knowledg and worship of god in christ joyned together in an holy band , or by special agreement for the exercise of the communion of saints in due observation of all the ordinances of the gospel . catech , p. 19. see also page 91. how he distinguishes a gospel church from the church under the law , which he calls a national church . again , he saith , page 93. the national church of the jews with all the ordinances of it , being removed and taken away the lord christ , hath appointed particular churches or united assemblies of believers , &c. see reverend mr. fords gospel church opened , chap. 1. page 5. where he gives a right discription of a gospel church instituted by christ , viz. a society of godly christians who give themselves first to the lord and then to one another , &c. in chap. 3. page 22. he shews the matter of a gospel church more fully , and that it doth consist only , of regenerate and converted persons : such as are married to , and have put on christ , such that are savingly , and powerfully enlightned and enlivened , quickened , and convinced of sin , of righteousness , and judgment . now are infants capable of these things , again , he says , page 25. that all church members ought to be sincere hearted believers , &c. where is your infant church membership , if what these worthy ministers say , be right as be sure it is ? i cite these authors to convince you that you have not a right notion of a gospel church , in that you say it differs not from the church of the jews which was national ; if you are no independent , but are for a national church , bring forth your arguments ; but first consult dr. owen , &c. the dr. saith further , viz. that god doth require regeneration as an indispensable condition in a member of his church ▪ a subject of his kingdom ; for his temple is now built of living ston●s ● tet. 2. 5. m●n spiritual and savingly quickened from their death in sin , and by the holy ghost ( whereof they are made partakers ) made a meet habitation for god , eph. 2. 21 , 22. 1 cor. 3. 16. &c. page 106. also see reverend mr. cotton of new england on the covenant , speaking of the ax being laid to the root of the trees , mat. 3. 9. page 177 , 178. the first is , saith he , the root of abrahams convenant , which this people much trusted upon , and that is that which john baptist speaks of is the ax laid to the root of the trees , think not to say with in your selves , we have abraham to our father , vers . 8. so that all their confidence they had in abrahams covenant , temple , and tabernacle , and such things , is burnt up , and so they have no root left them to stand upon . but 2ly . the lord he saith hath cut us off from the righteousness of our parents and from boasting of his ordinances . again , he saith , it is spoken of the ministry of john baptist , which did burn as an oven , and left them neither the root of abrahams covenant , nor the branches of their own good works ; he cutteth them off from the covenant of abraham and so by cutting them off from the root , he leaveth them no ground to trust to , page 21 , 22. you say the new creature in the womb , or in the cradle , is as perfect and compleat in all its lineaments as in the oldest saint on earth , page 40. &c. answer , sir , do not mistake your self , if infants are any of them regenerated in the womb , then regeneration in them is the first , birth but regeneration is a being born again , or a second generation which is wrought by the holy spirit , therefore it can't proceed from believing parents in any wise , they can by their faith contribute nothing to the second birth : now shew at what time 't is that regeneration is wrought in your infants . o take heed ; for tho' god doth regenerate the souls of dying infants , that are saved . yet what is this to the infants of believers , as such ? besides , if john baptist , or jeremiah the prophet were regenerated in the womb , or any other infants , then it would follow they were not born children of wrath as others : nor could their regeneration be called a being born again ( as i hinted before ) but their first birth must be so called . you i see apply those scriptures where our lord jesus speaks of the adult , to infants , as that , mark 16. 16. john. 3. 3. so that infants by your notion are required to believe and to be born again ; nay you , in page 24 , 25 ch●llenge mr. collins in the name of the lord to produce ●at one text of scripture that d●●h discover any other way or means , wherein god hath ordained and appointed to save elect. dying infants in ; differing in any point or part of it , from that wherein he saves adult believers ? again in page 19. say you , where will you find two ways for the saving elect persons , &c. answer , as to the way of salvation , 't is we g●ant but one , viz. christ is the way , nor is there salvation in any other : but the mode or manner may differ about the application or means of that one way in some points , as may appear to all , viz. 1. the adult ( except ideots ) are not saved without the act and exercise of faith , dying infants are . 2ly . the adult are not saved without actual repentance , but dying infants are , 3ly . the adult are not saved without mortification of sin , taking up the cross , and following of christ. but infants are saved without any of these , or any other sacred acts of obedience whatsoever ; and yet will you say the way ( as to the mode or manner ) of the salvation of dying infants , differs in no one point from adult persons : how will you prove that 't is the habit of faith , and not the act of faith , that applies christs merits and righteousness to the soul in adult persons ▪ is it not from the habit , the soul is enabled to believe , and say hold on christ ; and is it not thus that christ saves the adult , and doth he just so and in the same mode or manner save dying infants ? as to the producing one text in the case , i say the holy ghost is wholly silent as touching the way or manner of the application of christs merits , to dying infants , or how their sinful natures are sanctified ; yet that the modes differ in many respects , as i have shewed , is evident . as to what you say in page 4● . i ask , how do you kn●● but that some of the dying infants of ●fi●●ls may be elected as well as some infants of believers , and so in as good a condition ? ●●y , ●●w 〈◊〉 on know but that all infants dying in infancy may be elected ? sure i am , naturally all are born in ●in , and i know no difference in that respect , nor is there any when grown up till grace is infused : ' 〈…〉 e and not the natural birth that makes any difference between the children of believers , and the children of unbelievers ; and i do affirm , till children have actual faith , or do believe and repent , they have no right to the ordinance of baptism , nor have you proved the contrary , nor ever will. the church of england acknowledg the same , viz. that infants are not able to perform faith and repentance , the two great prerequisits of baptism , by reason of their tender age , therefore they have found out sureties to ingage for them . in page 57. you greatly abuse mr. collins , in saying that he allows not elect dying infants , to be in the covenant of grace . doth it follow , because he denies the infants of believers , as such , to be in the covenant of grace , therefore he denies elect infants to be in the covenant of grace ? sir , you ought , not to bear false witness against your neighbour , as you have done ; he will tell you and hath told , you that all that are saved , are in the covenant of grace . reader , pray note how disengenuous this man seems to be , and how he hath strangely encumbred the present controversie , in talk ▪ of habitual grace in dying ; infants for what is that to the purpose , since he refers not to such infants of believers that live ? he himself acknowledges that all their infants who live have not the habit of faith : nor can he prove any of them have it , or such that die either ; therefore unless no other but dying infants were baptized by the pedo baptists , this can no ways concern the controversie . 2. consider , that since those supposed habits in infants of believers , do not appear to us , nor do we know which they are , what ground it there to baptise any of them ? for what appears not is not ( as to us ) shou●d we baptise any adult persons in whom no fruit , sign , or demonstration of faith appears than what appears in infants , certainly we should be worthy of the greatest blame imaginable : for 't is evident that in all whosoever that are the true subjects of baptism , ought the habits of faith not only to be , but the act , confession and fruits of it also . true , we might plead thus ; what tho' we see no fruits of faith in some , yet they may be elected , and the habit of faith may be in them : nay , this allowed , viz. that they may baptise all the infants of believers promiscuously , supposing some are true subjects and have habitual faith , why say , i may they not also baptise ( by the same argument ) the infants of infidels or unbelievers , since among them may be some elected allo ; and if so , why not as much the habit of faith as any elect infant of believers ? to conclude with this , take three or four arguments . arg. 1. that which cannot be proved of this nature from the word of god , nothing being directly or indirectly spoken about it , is absur●d and vain for any person to assert . but it cannot be proved from the word of god that one infant of believers or any other , have habitual faith ; there being nothing directly or indirectly spoken about it , ergo 'tis absurd and vain for any person to assert that any infant of believer hath habitual faith. arg. 2. 't is forbid , and a sinful thing for any to p●y into gods secrets : all they that pry into the way how god applies the merits of christ to dying infants , and sanctifieth them , do pry into god , secrets , ergo 'tis forbid and a sinful thing to pry into that , &c. the text says positively , secret things belong unto god , not unto us that is , such secret things which god hath not made known to his dearest children ; for we deny not but some things that were kept secret , are now revealed , and some things also that are made known to the godly , are kept secret from the wicked ; hence 't is , said the secrets of the lord are with them that fear him , and he will shew them his covenant , psal. 2● . 14. the covenant of grace that is hid from others is revealed to believers , they understand the nature , blessings , and duties of it ; they know no person can be saved but by the grace of god in this covenant , nor without the merits of christ and sanctification : but yet how the merits of christ or the blood of the covenant is applyed to infants that die , or how they are sanctified is no where revealed to the godly ( therefore one of gods secrets ) if this man knows it , let him shew where it is written , or hath he it by revelation ? but this man says page 129. that the salvation of all the elect is revealed ; and christ saith , there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed , and hid that shall not be known . answer , sure those words must be taken with restriction , for there are many things not ▪ revealed , and tho' it is revealed that all the elect are saved and sanctified by christ , yet shew me where 't is revealed or made known that infants have habitual faith. arg. 3. they who have had an habit of faith infused into them , can never lose it . but such infants that live may lose your supposed habit of faith ; therefore . such infants never had an habit of faith infused into them . for proof of the major proposition , see 1 john 3. 9. the seed remains in him , luke 22. 23. i have prayed for thee , that thy faith fail not . arg. 4. those infants who have your supposed habit of faith infused into them are regenerated , and when grown up to maturity , need no other regeneration : but those infants when erown up to maturity do need regeneration ; therefore . those infants have no such habit of faith infused into them . if he should say those habits infused in infancy do regenerate their soul , let him prove it : how doth it come to pass then that some of the children of believers are not regenerated till they are ( may be ) 30 or 40 or 50 years old ? strange that such habits should be in them , and yet lie asleep so long , and evil habits predominate in them till that time . this man in page 45. positively affirms , that some children have had faith tho' he cannot prove any infants have it that are now living : if he by children means infants , i do deny , it , and b●d him prove what he says , for the ▪ text he mentions in luk. 1. 41. proves no such , thing : what tho` the babe leaped in the womb of elizabeth , doth that prove the babe had faith or the habit of it ? neither doth that in 2 tim. 1. 5. what tho' st. paul was perswaded that timothy had when an adult person , like unfeigned saith that was in his gran mother lois , and in his mother eunice doth that prove he had the habit of faith in him when an infant ? if you say that the habit of grace may be in a person , and yet nor appear , act nor influence or dispose the person according to the nature and quality of it , you may as well say there may b● a principle of life in a person and yet he may be dead , or have no life , sense , feeling , or motion in him ; or there may be fire , and no heat , a sun and no light , water and no moisture ; also you contradict all divines and wise men in the world in their notions about a habit of grace or vital principle : they say where these habits are there is divine life , there is a spirit of love and other graces , whereby as their understandin●s are possessed with knowledg of the excellencies of gods ways , so their wills are seasoned by the power of those habits , and as the old nature is the habit of sin , so the new nature is the habit of grace ; where the habit of faith is , they tell you there is a ready disposition to every good work , and as 't is ready in respect of disposition so it is in the activity of motion , yea that 't is naturally active according to its divine nature ; and voluntary active . and where these habits are there is a kind of natural necessity of motion from life and habit , &c. now if these habits do remain in any infants of believers that live : how comes it to pass there is none of these effects and operations , but the direct contrary till new habits be infused ? if you say these habits may be quite lost , then there is a possibility of falling quite from true grace . reverend dr. owen in his discourse of the holy spirit , page 416. saith , that the habit of grace is a vertue , a power , a principle of spiritual life , wrought , created , infused into our souls , and laid in all the faculties of them constantly abiding and unchangeably residing in them . — and again saith , this abideth always in , and with all that are sanctified . — and hereby are they prepared , disposed and enabled unto all duties of obedience . thus you see that there is not in any infants of relievers that live , any habit of faith , and if you still affirm it you will run upon one rock or another which will sink your ship down to the bottom without remedy . in page 41. mr. sh●te reflects upon mr. collins because he calls infants ignorant babes , see his words , viz. he seems to make the ignorance of young infants to be too hard a match for the wisdom and power of god , and renders infants , wholly uncapable of receiving the seeds of grace . answer , doth mr. collins question the wisdom and power of god , because he affirms infants are morally uncapable of those habits of faith which are in adult persons ? what cannot god do ? no doubt he that placed in infants the seed or habit of natural knowledg , will , affections , &c. can inspire infants with the habits of divine grace , nay , and as easily bring those natural and divine habits in their infancy when infused , into acts and exercise also , according to their distinct natures and operations as in the adult : but for any to assert that god doth this is the business , and 't is that which we do deny , and say , god infuses no such habits into any infants ( that we know of ) who are out of a moral capacity to act and improve those habits , according as they dispose , incline , and impower all that have them . 2. and let it be also considered whether this man doth not go about to limit the holy one of israel : when he argues that because god saves and sanctifies the adult by infusing the habits of grace into them &c. that therefore god must that way and no other , sanctify and apply the blood and righteousness of christ to dying infants . we know that men can differently apply the same medicine to a sick person , and yet it shall have the same effect in curing : so ( say we may god some other way apply christs merits to dying infants and sanctify them ( which we know not of ) besides his infusing the same habits which believers are inspired withall , who is a free agent and whose ways are wonderful and past finding out . chap. iii. proving that infants of believers , as such , are not in the covenant of grace god made with abraham ; and that there was a twofold covenant made with abraham , one that peculiarly referred to his natural seed , as such ; and the other to his spiritual seed , as such ; with a full answer and confutation of what mr. shute hath said in his last reply to mr. collins , and to benjamin keach , in his treatise , the ax lay'd to the root , about the covenant of grace , and that of circumcision . i shall pass by several things in your answer , because they are over , and over , fully answered , in our late treatise wrote on this controversie , as that in page 44. of your book concerning federatal holiness , from 1 cor. 7. 14. see our answer to the athenian society , and rector rectified , and that in page 71. about the promise , acts 2. 38. but to proceed . this first of all the reader is desired to consider of , and that carefully , that our adversary hath dealt very unfairly with my reverend brother collins , i hope it is through his ignorance or great oversight , viz. first , he positively concludes and takes it for granted , that mr. collins hath endeavoure● 〈◊〉 ●rove the covenant of grace which god made with , or rather promis`d to abraham is dissannulled and taken away . secondly , that mr. collins by his often repeated distinction of the covenant of peculiarity god made with abraham , doth mean and intend the covenant of grace , when this is as far from his intention and expressions any where in his book or judgment , as the east is from to the west : i have seen many men undertake in controvertible points , but never saw any ( except one ) abuse his antagonist worse , nor after such a sort ; 't is evident there was two covenants contained in those transactings of god with abraham , one peculiarly respected only his natural seed or off-spring , as such , which mr. collins calls the covenant of peculiarity , ( as others have done before him ) which circumcision was a sign of , and this he hath proved , was not the covenant of grace which god promised to abraham for the covenant of grace god promised to him , did not peculiarly relate to abrahams natural seed that were elect persons ; but to all the gentiles also , who believe in christ ; for that comprehends none but the elect , or the true spiritual seed of abraham , as such . reader , if you read mr. colline first book , or his answer to mr. shute , you will find this is as plainly layd down by him , as any thing could well be : i am afraid that this man`s over heated zeal would not suffer him distinctly to read over , and seriously weigh , what mr. collins hath wrote and said upon this account , before he attempted to write an answer , for thro' this gross mistake ( as one that hath read mr. shutes book , observed and told me ) he hath wrote near twenty leaves to no purpose , i. e. to prove that which no body denys , viz. that the covenant of grace god promised to abraham , is not dissolved , cast out , or disannulled , but abides the same forever , which we all as stedfastly believe as mr. shute , therefore he has but set up here on this respect , a man of straw , and then fights with it ; and upon search and examination of mr. shutes reply , i see that what the gentleman told me is very true , and that those leaves do begin about 74th . page and so on : and in the said 74th . page mr. shute begins with this easie assay , viz. to prove the covenant of grace god made with ( or rather promised unto ) abraham , abideth for ever and ever , he urgeth that blessed text psalm 89. 34 , 35 , &c. my covenant i will not break , nor alter the thing that in gone out of my lips ; once have i sworn by my my holiness that i will not lye unto david , &c. do we say or imagin , that the promise of the covenant of grace god made to abraham , is abrogated ? god forbid : for that stands firm for ever and ever , as the spring of all our comfort and consolation in life and death , being confirmed by the oath of god , who cannot lie , heb. 6. 13. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. and so doth the invisible and mystical church , or body of christ , remain and abide for ever also , against which the cates of hell shall never prevail . but the question is , viz. whether or no , there was not a covenant of peculiarity made with abraham and his natural seed , ( or off-spring ) as such , viz a covenant that only , did belong or appertain to the jews , in which no-believing gentiles , nor their seed , as such , were concerned , of which circumcision was a sign , for this is that which we affirm . now reader , observe mr. collins's argument , and mr. shutes reply in his 76. page viz. the natural branches are broken off , ergo , childrens visible in covenanting is repealed : thus mr. collins , take the answer as followeth . now sir you shall see , saith mr. shute , that this doth no more prove , that the children of believing parents , were cast out of the everlasting covenant which god made with abraham , than , &c. answer , by the everlasting covenant , you mean the covenant of grace , that god promised to abraham . friend , we say all the elect infants of believers , or of unbelievers were included in that covenant , and they are not , nor can they be cast out of it : but you mistake the argument , `t is not about the spiritual seed , but the natural seed of abraham ; the controversie lies not , about who are members of the invisible , but who are members of the visible church in gospel days ; the argument is about childrens visible in covenanting . i am sorry you distinguish no better , either you do not see where the stress of the point lies , or else will not see it . i ask you whether there was no covenant made with abraham , that belonged to his natural seed as such only ? and whether circumcision did not belong to that covenant , and so a covenant of peculiarity ? i. e. in which gentile believers , and their seed were no ways concerned ; was not christ to come only of abraham and his seed , according to the flesh ? besides , if this were not so , circumcision could not be said to be an advantage to the jews , ( upon the account of the law ) above the gentiles , rom. 3. 1 , 2. is it not said ●nto them ( that is , the jews ) appertained the covenants , &c. rom. 9. 4. is not here more covenants than one ? 't is not covenant , but covenants : now the covenant of circumcision that belonged to them , as they were the natural seed of abraham , ( tho' wicked persons ) and so did the giving of the law and service of god under that dispensation : but the covenant of grace belongs only to abraham , spiritual seed . first such of them that proceeded from his loyns ; and secondly , those of the gentiles , also that were comprehended in gods election of grace ; hence christ saith , he was not sent , but to the lost sheep of the house of israel , that is , to all that god hath given him among the jews , not sent , that is not first , the promise runs first to the jews , to the jews first , and also to the gentiles , rom. 1. 16. 1. let this therefore be carefully considered , viz. that god made a twofold covenant or two covenants with abraham and his seed one a formal covenant , the other held forth in promise , which by and by i shall further evince . 2. that the gospel covenant run first to all the elect that were the natural off-spring of abraham , and then to the gentiles , and from hence 't is said , rom. 11. that when the jews are called and brought in again , they shall be grafted into their own olive-tree . their own because the covenant of grace or gospel covenant , first in the blessings of it , was to them or to such amongst them , that were gods elect . 2. because the true olive doth according to god 〈…〉 rnal pupose and free grace ; peculiarity belong to all the elect and called ones of god , — but 3. let it be consider'd that there was a national covenant of peculiarity also , made with abrahams carnal seed , as such in which circumcision , the land of canaan , the giving sorib of the law on mount sinai , their visible church , and church-membership , and all the statures , ordinances , and services of the law did appertain , and this brings me to what mr. shute hath said by way of answer to my sermon on ma●h . 3. now is the ax laid to the root of the trees . where i do not only assert , but prove that two covenants were continued in gods transactions with abraham ; but first observe , reader , his abuses and misconstructions of my words , as in page 115. as if i had left out on purpose the 7. verse in gen. 17. where the covenant of circumcision is called , an everlasting covenant . 't is evident i did not only mention that verse , but answered mr. flavels argument drawn there from , as in part 2. page 13. but still he affirms positively again that in all my discourse , i have not so much as named this , viz. an everlasting covenant , and so compares me with the devil , who left out part of a scripture ; see his book page 116. now this being a matter of fact , let such who are in communion with him consider it , for if they read my sermons , page 13 , 14. they will see that 't is a great untruth . what tho' i left it out at such times when the writing it was not to my purpose in hand , seeing i mention it at another , and answer what our opponents draw there from ? in page 117. he says , if there were two covenants made with abraham , then there would have been three covenants in being at once , two of works , and one of grace . answer , this i have fully answered in those sermons called , the ax layd at the root , see page 14 , 15 , 16 , 18. second part. thus you will find i express my self , viz. tho' there is but one covenant of work 's yet there was more than one addition or administration of the said covenant . this is evident , altho' given upon a different end , purpose , and design by the lord : the covenant of works was primerly made with adam ; yet another addition or ministration of it , was given on mount sinai , and to that covenant , i there prove circumcision did appertain , ax 2d . part page 17 , 18. also i there shewed that tho' there is but one covenant of grace , yet there were several distinct additions or administrations of that . also , in page 125. he misrepresents my words again , he cites an objection i mention in page 25. part 1. viz. object . if infants as such were not included in the covenant of grace god made with abraham , how can dying infants be saved ? my answer is , must infants of believers , as such , be comprehended in that covenant , god made with abraham , or else can they not be saved ? how then were any dying infants saved before abraham's days , or before the covenant was made with him ? now mr. shute says , page 125. that i have answered this objection ; as if there had been no covenant of grace before that time god did declare and make that covenant with abraham . answer , i will appeal to all men , whether or no the very purport of my answer is not to signifie that the covenant of grace was from the beginning , made primarly with christ before the world begun for us , and that those infants that were saved before abraham's time , were saved by the said covenant of grace , otherwise i had said nothing ; the very stress of my argument lyes upon that foot of account . in page 132. mr. shute he says if god made two distinct covenants with abraham and his seed , then . 1. there must be that in the one that is peculiar to his spiritual seed . 2. there must be that in the other that is peculiar to his carnal seed ; but we find ( saith he ) it is altogethor unscriptural ; for 1. both the seeds of abraham had a right to all the external benefits and priviledges of the everlasting cevenant which god made with abraham , very few excepted . answer , i have largely proved in the said sermons called , the ax layd to the root , that there were some things in one peculiar to his spiritual seed , that no ways related to his carnal seed , as such , which proved the covenant contained in promise to be distinct , page 15 , 16. and some things in the other that belonged to his natural seed , that appertains not to his spiritual seed , as such , of which this man takes no notice . i begin there with those things that belonged to abrahams , natural seed , as such , as peculiar to them . 1. the first that i name , is , that of gods multiplying his seed by isaac . 2. the birth of isaac by sarah abraham , s wife , gen. 17. 16 , 19. 3. the continuation of his covenant , with all that should proceed from isaac according to the flesh , gen. 17. 6. 4. the coming of christ out of isaac according to the flesh. 5. the bringing the natural seed of abraham by isaac out of egypt . 6. the promise of giving his natural seed the land of canaan for their possession . now can any of these things concern , or belong to abraham● spiritual seed , as such , that is , do they concern us gentiles who do believe ? observe also , that as these things peculiarly appertained to his natural seed , as such ; so circumcision is expresly called gods covenant , gen. 17. thou shalt keep my covenant , every man child among you shall be circumcised , verse 10. and ye shall circumcise the flesh of your fore skins , and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you , verse 8. and i will give unto thee , and to thy seed after thee , the land wherein thou art a stranger , all the land of canaan , &c. so gen. 15. 8. now this covenant and these promises i affirmed , cannot belong to the spiritual seed of abraham as such , page 16. therefore a covenant of peculiarity ; to which he hath given no answer . secondly , i have shewed also what those things are , that are peculiar to the covenant of grace , and so to abrahams spiritual seed , as such , which covenant only , was by promise , not a formal covenant like the other , viz. that of circumcision , gen. 17. 7. 1. see gen. 15. 5. look towards heaven , tell the stars , if thou art able to number them ; and he said unto him , so shall thy seed be ; and he believed in the lord , and it was counted to him for righteousness . this was not in the covenant of circumcision , and referrs to abraham● numerous spiritual seed . 2. so again , i have made thee a father of many nations ; meaning gentile believers , as divers expositors shew . 3. in thy seed , shall all the nations of the earth be blessed , gen. 12. 3. gen. 18. 18. gen. 22. 18. i cited the apostles words , gal. 3. 8. the scripture foreseeing , that god would justifie the heathen , through faith preached the gospel to abraham , saying , in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed . 't is remarkable the holy ghost does not here refer to the covenant of circumcision , gen 17. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. but to the free promise of the covenant of grace , which paul says positively abraham received not in circumcision , rom. 4. 9 , 10. faith was reckoned to abraham for righteousness ; how was it then reckoned , when he was in circumcision , or in uncircumcision ? not in circumcision , but in uncircumcision . now i desire it may be well considered by all christians , that the covenant of grace , was only by promise , and no formal covenant with any of the saints under the old testament ; thus the covenant of grace run to adam , to abraham , to david , &c. 11 , 12. only by promise , not a covenant , where there was a mutual restipulation between god and his elect ones : as in the covenant of circumcision , there was between god and abraham , in respect of his carnal seed ; this dr. owen asserts also on heb. 8. 6. page 227. when god renewed , saith he , the promise of it to abraham , he is said to make a covenant with him , and he did so ; but it was with respect unto other things ; especially the proceeding of the promised seed from his loyns ; but absolutely under the old testament , it consisted only in a promise . 1. it wanted its solemn confirmation and establishment , by the blood of the only sacrifice , which belonged to it . 2. this was wanting , saith he , the spring , rule , and measure of all the worship of the church , this does belong to every covenant , properly so called , that god makes with his church , that it be the entire rule of all the worship , that god requires of it , which is that which they are to restipulate in their entrance into covenant with god ; but so the covenant of grace was not under the old testament ; thus dr. owen . this is further confirmed by those expressions , jer. 31. 31. i will make a new covenant with the house of israel , &c. clearly intimating he had not so made it before with any , except it was with christ as our head , representive , and mediator , with whom it was made for us , and in him with us , before the foundation of the world , tit. 1. 2. 2 tim. 1. 9. object . does not david say god had made with him an everlasting covenant , &c. answer , i answer , david was a type of christ , psalm 89 , 28 , 34 , 35. with whom the covenant of grace was made before the world began , this therefore refers to the true david , who was only able to answer the condition agreed upon , between the father and himself as mediator , for the covenant of peace was between them both , zech. 6. 13. for unto us the covenant of grace is not a conditional , but an absolute covenant . i will be their god , and they shall be my people , &c. to adam the promise runs the seed of the woman shall bruise the sepents head , &c. to abraham , in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed . in both places it contained only a gracious promise : to abraham , and to his seed the promise was made ; it is not said covenant , therefore when i say god made a twofold covenant with abraham , i mean that there were two covenants contained in those covenant transactings of god with him , one a formal covenant with him and his carnal seed , which contained a covenant upon mutual restipulation , which was the covenant of circumcision , which abraham and his carnal seed subscribed to the other a free promise or covenant of grace to him and all is true spiritual seed , which is confirmed by christs blood , and which believers consent to , and enter into , when baptized upon the profession of their faith , in gospel days , tho' i deny not , but that they have actual interest in it ; as soon as they have union with christ , or do believe in him . moreover it was through faith only , in the free promise of christ and in the covenant of grace that all the faithful were justified and saved who lived under the old testament , tho' the covenant it self was not then formerly a covenant with them , it being not ratified nor confirmed by the blood of christ or death of the testator , nor could it so be till the typical covenant was taken away . this being so it follows clearly that the covenant , gen. 17. was only a peculiar external and typical covenant made with abraham and his carnal seed , in which , justification , pardon of sin , adoption , and eternal life was not contained , but in the free promise only god made to him , that covenant had in it ; it is true , temporal blessings , apolitical church state and typical worship , and visible , legal church membership given to israel in subserviency to the gospel covenant . and further to prove that the promise of the covenant of grace did not belong to abraham's natural seed as such , paul shews in gal. 3. 16. now to abraham and to his seed was the promise made ; he saith not to seeds , as ▪ of many ; but to thy seed , which is christ. and therefore saith he , vers . 29. and if ye be christs , then are you abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise . ye must say i reckon from christ , not from abraham ; but mr. shute misrepresents me here also , as if i set abraham before christ , when 't is evident i intimated no other thing than this , i. e. you must see your selves first in christ before you can reckon your selves to be abrahams seed : again , i cited page 17. part , 1. that in rom. 9. 7 , 8. neither because ▪ they are the seed of abraham are they all children , but in isaac shall thy seed be called , 7. that is , they which are the children of the flesh , these are not the children of god. but the children of the promise are counted for the seed . what can be more clear than this , viz. that the natural seed of abraham , as such ( called here the children of the flesh ) are not his spiritual seed to whom the covenant of grace doth belong unto , that is ( saith the apostle ) they which are the children of the flesh , these are not he children of god , that is , as such , or as simply so considered : for some of the natural seed of abraham , tho' not all , were the children of the promise ; for saith he , they are not all israel that are of israel , vers . 6. this man meddles not with my arguments , and what he catches up he generally wrongs and abuses me in , rendring me to speak that which i speak not nor , intended . but to proceed ( he says ) page 132. both the seeds of abraham had a right to all the external benefits and priviledges of the everlasting covenant , god made with abraham , very few excepted . answer , what few he means that are excepted , i know not ; but if all the spiritual seed of abraham had right to all the external benefits and priviledges of the external covenant god made with him , then all believing gentiles and their elect infants have , or had a right to circumcision , the giving of the law , the possession of the land of canaan , and all other rites of the mosaical law. 2. if by the everlasting covenant he means the covenant of grace , then all abrahams natural seed , as such , a few excepted , have or had a right to baptism , the lords supper and all gospel churche-priviledges ; and if so , why were the saddu●ees and pharisees , and multitudes more of abrahams natural seed refused and not admitted to the external benefits and priviledges of the gospel or covenant of grace ? think not to say , saith john baptist , within your selves , ye have abraham to your father , when they came to be baptized ; he proceeds to prove several things that none denys : a● that the covenant of works was made with adam and all mankind in him , and that there is but two covenants ; that all the elect under the law were in the covenant of grace , &c. then in page 134 , shews what a straight he is in , and knows not which to wonder at most . 1. at our boldness and confidence and imposing our sallacious corrupt doctrins upon the people . 2. or at the peoples ignorance to suffer themselves to be so horribly deluded and imposed upon . answer , i do not much wonder at such lines , because i know who wrote them , and in what spirit , but sir , you should first have proved any doctrin we maintain to be corrupt and fallacious . 2. that we impose those doctrins upon the people : dare you falsly charge and condemn the innocent ? we are not yet convicted nor tryed at a lawful bar : but both you and we must appear at a righteous and just tribunal ere long — you proceed to renew your charge against me for leaving out everlasting covenant . friend , i quoted those verses that concerned the point i had in hand , and have cited that verse and answered it too , where circumcision is called an everlasting covenant ; see ax laid to the root and i will now recite what i there wrote . 2. part page 1● . viz. the covenant of circumcision was called an everlasting covenant . my answer there to this , is as followeth . answer , 't is not unknown to our opponents that the word everlasting , sometimes signifies no more than a long continuance of time ; and so extensive was the promise of gods peculiar favours to the natural seed of abraham ; and the original of their claim therefrom , that the severity of that ●aw afterwards given to them , was so far restrained as that notwithstanding their manifold breach of covenant with god and forfeture of all legal claims , of their right and priviledges in the land of canaan thereby , that they were never cut off from that good land and ceased to be peculiar people unto god , until the end or period of that time determined by the almighty was fully come : which was at the revelation of the m●ssiah , and the setting up his spiritual temple under the dispensation of the gospel ; and thus far the word everlasting doth extend . 't is said , god promised to give the land of canaan to abrahhm and to his seed for ever ; and again , gen. 17. 8. for an everlasting inheritance , whereas 't is evident they have for many ages been disposessed of it . nor may this seem strange if we consult other texts where the same terms are used with the like restriction , for the priesthood of levi is called an everlasting priesthood , numb . 25. 13. and so the statutes to make an atonement for the holy sanctuary , and for the tabernacle and for the altar , is called an everlasting statute , levit. 16. 34. yet we know they all ended as did the covenant of circumcision in christ : see more in page 14. ax laid to the root . 1. now let any person see what blame this man doth in justice deserve for saying i have not mentioned the word everlasting in all my book , viz. circumcision being called an everlasting covenant ; you also see , what little argument lies in that to prove the covenant of circumcision is a gospel covenant or appertaining to the covenant of grace ▪ reader , in those sermons i laid down eleven arguments , proving that the covenant of circumcision was part of the old legal and external covenant god made with the jews or the natural seed of abraham , so not belonging to the gospel covenant , and because thou mayest not meet with them , i shall give thee here the heads or sum of them as followeth , see page 18. 1. part. arg. 1. because the law or covenant of circumcision was made , as to the design and end of it to separate the natural seed of abraham in their national church state , from all other nations , and to give them the land of canaan , so that they might not mixt themselves with the heathen . 1. will any say the gospel covenant or any precept of it ; in the end and design of it , is institured to separate all believers and their fleshy seed as a national church from all other people in the world ? if this be so , farewel to all spiritual incorporated congregations of christians . see dr. owen . 2. doth any gospel ordinance assure us and our children of the land of canaan , or any worldly and earthly blessings , or is not the new covenant established upon better promises ? arg. 2. because some who were not in the covenant of promise , had a positive right to , and where commanded of god to be circumcised , as ishmael , esau , &c. and all the male-children , tho' wicked mens children that sprung from isaac in their generations , &c. also some of abrahams spiritual seed were not to be circumcised , nor had they any right there too . 1. as all his male-children who died before eight days old . 2. all his females , who were elected persons and some others , who lived in abrahams days , as melchisedeck and lot , &c. arg. 3. because some of abrahams natural seed to whom circumcision did belong , were nevertheless denied gospel baptism ; tho' their plea was abraham is our father . 1. from hence it follows , circumcision was no gospel law ; for that which gave right to circumcision was not sufficient to give right to gospel baptism . 2. it also appears that the covenant of grace , was not the adequate reason of circumcision , but the mere positive command of god to abraham ; so that if they could prove the children of believers in the covenant of grace , it would nevertheless be no argument to baptise them , unless they had a command or ground from christ so to do . for the covenant god made with abraham speaks nothing of baptism . and had not our blessed saviour given it forth as an instistution of the gospel , we had never heard of it nor known it had been a duty or ordinance , should we have read the covenant made with abraham a thousand times over : therefore if all they say about the infant seed of believers as such should be granted , being in the covenant of grace that god made with abraham , ( which cannot ) yet it would not follow from thence , infants ought to be baptized for , none ought to be baptized but such that christ's commission and positive command , doth authorize so to be , which are none but those who by preaching , and the working of the holy ghost are made disciples , or do believe ; and make a confession of their faith ; in maters of mere positively right . we must always keep to the direct will and words of the law-giver like as abraham did in circumcision : no adding nor altering no pleading for females to be circumcised , if males only are expressed in the institution of it . arg. 4. circumcision could not be a gospel rite , because all in the gospel church , 't is expresly said , shall know the lord , jer. 31. 31. and shall not need to be taught to know him . now under the old legal covenant infants were admitted members of the jewish church , who did not know the lord , but had need when grown up to understanding to be taught to know him ; in this the old covenant differs from the new ; and old church membership from new church membership ; for our children before admitted into gods church , must know the lord ; we and they too must believe or be made disciples by teaching ; we must know christ or fix our faith on him , in saving knowledg which infants cannot do . to the last of these arguments he seems to say some thing ; see page 119. where he cites these words out of my sermons , page 21. viz. in the old covenant infants were members who did when taken into that covenant and made members of that legal church , not know the lord. mr. shute says , here i mention but one covenant , and acknowledg infants were in that one covenant : so that he hath confused himself , and let him or any of their opinion prove by scripture god did ●ast young infants out of that one covenant ; he hath destroyed his two covenants by thus contradicting himself ; a man under his circumstances had need to have a good memory . answer , that covenant which i mention was i tell you the legal covenant that god made with the whole church and house of israel , and how do i contradict my self ? infants i own were members of the jewish church , and doth not the scripture say , cast out the bond woman and her son , &c. is not the old covenant the jewish covenant gone ? did not god take away the first , that he might establish the second ? what covenant is that which the apostle says , is took away and difanulled ? 't is not you , will say , the covenant of grace . i also ask you whether the jewish church that was founded upon that old covenant , is not gone and dissolved ? if so what doth your arguing prove , nor is there a new gospel national church like the church of the jews instituted in the room of the old ? since you plead for infants church-membership , you must come to the new and last will and testament , if christ hath not willed infants , their right to baptism , and church-membership in the gospel , they can't have it by the former testament which is disannulled . tou ask if faith and repentance was not required under the law , page 119. i answer , not to make any members of the jewish church , you are in page 120. 121. &c. upon your old argument , that both young and old , infants and the adult are saved by faith : we have answered that already . such that can believe , that infants do believe or know the lord , let them , i believe it not , nor can he nor all the men of the world prove it . i shall repeat the substance of my other arguments , to prove that circumcision did not appertain to the covenant of grace . arg. 5. because the terms of it runs according to the sinai covenant , which is said not to be of faith. but the man that doth these things shall live in them , gal. 3. 22. life was promised to their obedience , death threatned to their disobedience : the promises were earthly , &c. and thus runs the covenant of circumcision , gen. 17. 9 , 10. thou shalt keep my covenant , &c. and i will give to thee , and to thy seed after thee , the land of canaan . and the uncircumcised man-child whose flesh of his fore-●●in is not circumcised , that soul shall be cut off , &c. vers 14. 6. the covenant of circumcision was of the letter and not of the spirit that is , of the law or first testament , and not of the gospel or second testament , see rom. 3. 29. 7. that covenant in which faith was not reckoned to abraham for righteousness , was not the covenant of grace , or gospel covenant ; but faith was not reckoned to abraham in circumcision , ergo . see rom , 4. 9 , 10. see more page 22. 1 part. arg. 8. that law or covenant that is contra-distinguished or opposed to the covenant of faith , or gospel covenant could not be one and the same in nature and quality with it . but the apostle lays down the covenant of circumcision , as contra-distinct or opposed to faith or the covenant of grace , ergo . 9. that covenant or precept that could profit none unless they keep the whole law perfectly , it could not appertain to the covenant of grace , but so 't is said of circumcision , s●e rom. 2 , 25. 10. that law or covenant that obliged those that conformed to it , to keep the whole law , could not belong to the covenant of grace , but so did circumcision oblige , see gal. 5. 3. see our last annotators on that text. 11. that covenant that is called a yoke of bondage , could not be the covenant of grace . but circumcision is called a yoke of bondage , ergo . see act. 15 ▪ gal. 5. 1 , 2. 12. all those that are in the covenant of grace god promised to abraham , have an undoubted right to all the saving blessings of the said covenant , but all those that were in the covenant of circumcision had not an undoubted right to all the saving blessings of the covenant of grace , ergo , &c. 13. all those that are in the covenant of grace god promised to abraham , have a sure and strong ground of consolation , that is , spiritual consolation ; and they should be saved , heb. 6. 13 , 14 , 15. but many of them that were in the covenant of circumcision had no sure ground of consolation , that is , spiritual , nor have many of our children who are believers any such ground of consolation , but some of them may perish , ergo . sir , why did you not answer these arguments ? you have said nothing , that is worth regard to me . also shew if you writ again what profit your infants receive by baptism , and in what sense they are in the covenant of grace , and how they can be members of your churches , and yet are not members nor received as such , until they actually believe and repent , — but remember if you could prove them in the covenant of grace , yet that doth not prove you ought to baptise them : baptism is of mere positive right : you must have authority from christ to baptise them , or you sin if you do it . in page 136. you tell us , that the form of circumcision was transient , and is ceased — yet the essential part thereof remaineth in the flesh , for nothing could be more a type of baptism than circumcision , &c. answer , i promised to forbear hard words ; but a man that argues thus should be severely dealt with one way or another , i. e. either by writing , or rather in a church way be severely reproved . does the essential part of circumcision remain in the flesh , then the mark it made in the flesh doth no doubt remain , for i know not what was else the essential part of it remaining in the flesh save that , the form was the cutting off the fore-skin . if you had said the essential thing signified by it doth remain in the heart of true believers , you had said some thing to the purpose — but. did ever any man before now intimate that baptism is the essential part of circumcision ? if this were so , circumcision could not be circumcision in the flesh without baptism , because a thing cannot be where the essential part of it is wanting . he proceeds to give a reason why the essential part of circumcision remains in the flesh , page 136. viz. how saith he , could this token of the covenant be everlasting , if the essence thereof was dissolved upon the coming in of the gospel ? this cannot be , for it is a contradiction in it self ; for everlasting and dissolution are opposites . 1. answer , this man by this argument gives cause to fear he may erelong plead for circumcision , and turn jew , for he is for the essential part of it , and that in the flesh too already : i am sorry he understands no better the difference between a type and the antitype , for there can no part of the type remain ( much less the essential part of it when the antitype is come ) — but he runs into this error from his ignorance of the word everlasting ; which as i have shewed is sometimes to be taken with restriction , and refers to a long period of time . — he may as well say aarons priesthood remains , or the essential part of it , because called an everlasting priesthood , numb . 25. 13. 2. we deny baptism was the antytipe of circumcision : to prove it was not , i have given many reasons , which he answers not . 1. both circumcision and baptism were in full force together for some time , even from the time john baptized , until the death of christ. 2. because one thing that is a figure or shadow cannot come in the room of , as the antitype of another thing that is a figure . see 12 reasons more in rector rectifiea page 4. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , &c. one of them mr. shute takes notice of , which is this , viz. circumcision belonged only to male children , baptism belongs to males and females who believe . to this he answers , that the females was included in the males , because man is the head and representative of the woman , and woman is a part of man. answer , why then let your females be baptized in your males : for from hence it will follow when your males are baptized , your females are baptized also , as much as the jews females were circumcised . neither need your wives eat the lords supper , for when you receive , they receive it . but sure , sir , you mistake ; your learning fails you : will the food you eat feed your wife ? or will your faith serve her ? doth she believe when you believe , because she is part of you , as here you intimate ? in page 12. 7. he reflects on me for saying , god may have many ways to save dying infants , which we know not : he can apply the benefits and merits of christ's blood to them in ways we are wholly ignorant of , &c. for this i quoted dr. taylor bishop of down . take his answer , viz. pray take notice this man contradicts himself ▪ for in page 21. ( he saith ) they must believe and repent , and bring forth good fruits , &c. yet here , ●e saith , god hath many ways to save dying infants : and in page 30. for this mr. shute says , there is no saving of any person , old or young , without the grace of faith. th● , you see there is ( saith he ) but one way to eternal life . 1. answer , i cannot see but that you have by your arguing , thus excluded all infants that dye , out of the kingdom of heaven ; for if no infant can be saved , unless they believe , repent , and bring forth good fruits as the adult must , if they are saved , how is it possible any infant can be saved ? 2. i did not contradict my self , i spoke not there of infants , but of adult persons : and why did you before only plead for habitual faith to be in dying infants , that go to heaven , since row you here intimate that they must believe ? for you cite mark 16. 16. he that believes and is baptized , shall be saved , and he that believes not shall be damned . if our saviour in these words refers to infants , as well as to men and women , i am mistaken , and all learned men i ever met with . friend , it wi● not help you to say christ performed these conditions for them , viz. faith and repentance , page 123. nor doth the meritorious death of christ , without the infusing divine faith into the soul , render any man a believer : besides , tho' 't is by the grace and power of christs spirit , that we believe , repent , and bring forth good fruit : yet 't is we that believe , and repent , the act is ours , tho' inabled by divine power . to do it . now prove that god gives any infant such power to believe and repent , &c. who know not the object of faith , nor have any understanding . friend , they are more excusable , who say god may have many ways to apply the blood and merits of christ , and so save and sanctifie dying infants , which we know not of , than you who assert that not one of them can be saved unless they believe , &c. and if they do not do so , they shall be damned : for you positively affirm there is no way of gods saving elect dying infants , differing in any point from that of his saving adult persons 't is well you may err , for should what you say be true , 't is enough to bring sorrow and amazement upon godly parents , about the state of their dying infants . chap. iv. wherein mr. shutes arguments to prove our churches no churches , and our baptism a counterfeit , are examined and answered . 1. in page 186. he asserts , that adult believers have nothing to do with the ordinance after the first institution or plantation of the gospel in a family , unless it be such , whose parents deprived them of it in their infancy : but baptism of right is devolved upon the infant seed of believers . 1. answer , if this be true , then the children of unbelievers have no right to baptism , neither as infants nor when adult believers , it the right be devolted upon the infants of believers . — this in the first place is enough to convince him of his great error and mistake , 〈◊〉 he will not say that unbelievers children have any right thereto in their infancy . tho' his evidence that abrahams natural seed , tho' ungodly persons , were required to circumcise their children , and their children had the same right to it ; for were none but godly jews to circumcise their male infants ? pray observe this . 2. besides , did not god expresly command abraham as well to circumcise his male infants as himself ; and so his offspring their children after him in their generations ? and now did our saviour give such a commission about gospel baptism , viz. that first those that believed should be baptized , and then their infants ; or was there not the same purity of reason for christs commission about baptism to have run thus , as there was for gods commission so to run to abraham about circumcision ? if what you say was true but we will come to his reasons to prove our baptism a counterfeit , and our churches no churches of christ. in page 186. first , because , saith he , they disown the covenant god made with abraham , in which the very foundation ; for baptism , was laid ; let them find another foundation for it , if they can ; for that covenant is founded upon christ himself , &c. 1. answer , this in the first place is not that he charges us with , viz. that we disown 〈◊〉 covenant god made with abraham ; for the covenant of grace , god promised to him 〈…〉 contend for it as far forth as any can — but we do say the covenant of circumcision is disannuled ; that we do disown to be in force now . 2. could he prove that baptism is founded upon the covenant made with abraham , he would seem to say some thing : but we deny that utterly ; for had not christ instituted or given it forth in the new testament , none could have known that baptism had been an ordinance ; it was not imprinted on the hearts of men , but it is a mere positive precept . 3. i will shew you therefore another foundation for it , and not the covenant god made with abraham , viz. the great commission of jesus christ , mat. 28. 18 , 19 , 20. mark. 16. 16. if we have it not here , saith mr. richard baxter , where have it we ? but you are wiser it appears than that pedo-baptist . now friend , since our baptism is founded on christs commission , both as to subject and mode of baptising , our baptism is no counterfeit , and so you will know one day . 2. your second reason is , because we baptise the adult seed of believers , th●● were baptised in their infancy , as they ought not . answer , you do but beg the question . we 'tis true , do baptise the adult seed of some believers , but we deny they were baptized in their infancy , they were but rantized ; but had they been in their infancy baptized , i , e. dipped , yet not having the prerequisites of baptism , viz. faith and repentance , they were not the true subjects of that gospel ordinance . but friend , do we do well to baptise the off-spring of unbelievers , since by your argument they in their infancy could not have true right to it , it being intayled on believers seed only ? is that branch of our baptism a counterfeit also ? 3. you say their baptism cannot be good , because they deny it to their own seed and off-spring ; when as the covenant is made to believers and their seed : so that either they are no believers themselves , or else they reprobate their own children . 1. answer , our baptism may be good in your own opinion , i suppose , if our parents were unbelievers — but friend , whose authority renders any ordinance good ? if we act according to the authority of christ in baptism , is not our baptism good ? we deny baptism to our children , because all are required to believe , repent , &c. before baptized , mat. 28. 19 , 20. mark 16. 16 , act. 2. 36 , 37. act. 8. 12 , 14 , 39 , &c. but do we reprobate our children because we baptise them not ? is that in our power ? or can baptism bring into , or cast out of gods election ? 3. friend , we deny that the covenant of grace , god promised to abraham , gives any a right to baptism . no , no , 't is christs positive command . if the covenant of grace gave lot no right to circumcision , as it did not , because not commanded of him , how can the covenant of grace give right to baptism to any , person but to such only that christ hath commanded to be baptised ? 4. and lastly , you say their baptism cannot be good , because their principle is to baptise adult believers , but not their seed ; which is to baptise , but part of the believer ; whereas they should baptise , not only a part of him , but all of him : so that their baptism is but a counterfeit baptism . answer , is this to shew your great wisdom ? but are our children a part of our selves and are we not believers without our children ? how if our children should prove unbelievers , then i fear we shall not go for compleat believers , but one part of us is a believer , and the other part of us an unbeliever ; also then if your child should perish , but a part of you would be saved ; is it fit such stuff should be printed ? do not mistake your self , you are one compleat man , and your son another , and you are no less compleat a man if you have no child at all : so it you are a believer you are a compleat believer and want no part , and if your child is an unbeliever : yet you are not less a compleat believer . but you that sprinkle only the face , i am sure you do not baptise the whole person of a child , nor any part of it , nor of the adult neither : what shall i call your baptism . — in page 187. you quote our three queries , but answer none of them . 1. whether children are in the covenant of grace , absolutely or conditionally ? ● . whether that can be an ordinance of christ to which there is neither precept nor example ? 3. whether in matters of meer positive right , such as baptism is , we ought not to keep expresly and punctually to the revealed will of the lawgiver ? had you answered these three queris to the purpose , you had done , ten times more than what is contained in your whole book . but instead of answering you ask this question , viz. where do you find any command for the infant seed of believers , to stay till they are adult , to be baptized ? 1. answer , where did god expresly forbid abraham to circumcise his male infants , on the 7th or 9th day , or not to circumcise female infants ? 2. there needs no negative law where there is a law in the affirmative ; if on the 8th day , it follows not on the 7th or 9th ; if males only are expressed , not females ; so if believers , if such who are taught and made disciples by teaching , are commanded to be baptized , then all must stay till they do believe , and are taught and made disciples , before baptized . 3. was not the gospel , think you , planted in joseph and mary's house , and yet the holy child jesus stayed till he was about 30 years old , before baptized . also gregory nazianzen in his 4th oration , saith dr. duveil , gives an instance of those who died without baptism by reason of infancy . and the same nazianzen , saith he , tho' he was a bishops son , being a long time bred up under his father , was not baptized until he came to mans age ; and so basil the great , who was born of pious parents , and instructed from his childhood , was not baptized until a man. the like he says of hiorem , ambrose , chrysostom , augustin , &c. nothing of this nature ought to be done in gods worship , without authority from his wor● ; prove if you can , one infant was baptized from the beginning of matthew , to the end of the revelations of john. arguments to prove that those churches who are gathered by faith and repentance , and upon the profession of faith are baptized ( which are called anabaptists ) are true churches of christ ▪ which mr. shute den●es so to be . 1. argument all those churches who are rightin matter and form are true churches . but those churches , falsly called anabaptists , are right in matter and form ●rgo they are true churches . the matter of true churches are godly person , or true believers ; the true form is the order or 〈◊〉 of the gospel church , viz. the a●ult upon the profession of faith and repentance , baptized ; and so with joynt consent give themselves up to the lord , and one to another , to walk in fellowship and commanion in all the ordinances of the gospel . 2. arg those churches which consist of godly persons owning all the essentials of the true religion , among whom the word of god it truly preached , and the sacraments are duly administred , are true churchs of jesus christ. but th●se baptized churches we contend for , falsly called anabaptists , do consist of godly persons owning all the essentials of the true religion , among whom the word of god is truly preached , and the sacraments duly and truly administred , ergo they are true churches of jesus christ. 3. arg ▪ those churches that are constituted according to the direct pattern laid down in the new testament ; are true churches of jesus christ. the baptized churches , falsly called anabaptists , are constituted according to the direct pattern laid down in the new testament , ergo they are true churches of jesus christ. to these let me add the fourth , which mr. collins hath in his half sheet . 4. arg. those churches who make christs merits the foundation of their salvation , and his doctrin the foundation of their churches constitution , are true churches , and their baptism is authentick : but the baptists do thus , ergo . 5. arg. if the ordinances of christ are to be kept as they were first delivered to the saints , and as practised by the apostolical church , our baptism , which you call ● counterfeit , is christ's true baptism . but the ordinances of christ are to be kept as they were first delivered to the saints , and as they were practised by the apostolical church , ergo , our baptism is christs true baptism . but friend , how can you hold communion with such persons who have a counterfeit baptism ? for i hear you break bread with some who own no other water-baptism but that of believers only , and deny infants to be subjects thereof . i think none of our godly brethren who are pedo-baptists , ever denied our baptism , tho' they strive to justify theirs : which of them will call the baptism of believers , yea , tho' such who were sprinkled when babes , to be a counterfeit ? without repentance you must be accountable for this one day . chap. v. containing an account of some of mr. shutes onseemly , scoffing and opprobrious language cast upon mr. collins , and my self together , with his false and abusive representation of us , and of several places of holy scripture ; with his impertinences , inconsistences and self-contradictions , as also those abuses he hath cast on the baptized congregations , in which rom. 11. 16. is explained , viz. if the root be holy so are the branches . and if some of the branches were broken off , &c. first i shall begin with mr. shute's unbecoming and scoffing expressions as they lie here and there in his book . 1. page 5. he intimates we are horribly bigotted to our opinion . in page 4. he says he will not render railing for railing . yet in pag. 5. you will find these expressions , speaking to mr. collins , you have charged me falsly you bogled and jugled with the sac●ed scriptures . yet he has not made either of these things to appear . in the said 5 page he saith , here thou hast the cavils of the adversary answered . in page 42. because mr. collins saith , that the habit of faith if it be in all infants of believers , it cannot be lost ; there being no losing the habits of grace , &c. mr. shute , says this gentleman ( meaning mr. collins ) doth as little boyes , that make a thing of rags in imitation of a cock , and when they have set it up throw at it . but gives no other answer ( as appears to me ) than by denying that he asserted , all infants of believers have habitual faith ; yet 't is from that topick he seems to plead for the baptising of all believers infants ? in page 46. he says , mr. collins is troubled with a grumbling in his gizzard . are those comely expressions . he says in page 57. that mr. collins is pleased to mock at habitual faith , because he compares faith potential and habitual : faith in the infants of believers , as such , with transubstantiation , &c. he renders me worse then the devil . page 116. the devil left out part of a scripture once to tempt our saviour with ; but in my weak judgment , saith mr. shute , this author had done it three times successively to maintain this error , &c. the better to beguile and deceive poor ignorant bigotted souls , &c. the lord knows i did not leave out part of the text at any time , to avoid answering their objection , or to favour our cause : but quoted then what was to the purpose in hand : and that objection i designed to answer afterwards , as i did in the second part in order . as the reader may see that hath the book . in page 82. he saith , speaking of mr. collins , was there ever such legerdemain played with the sacred scripture ? in page 23. he speaking to mr. collins , crys out , o for shame cease from bringing your carnal reason , &c. whereas 't is he himself that infers false conclusions from mr. collins words , and then cries out , o for shame . page 24. where are you now with your humane invented , lame , decrepit salvation , &c. are not these unchristian reflections ? resides , he had no ground given him thus to abuse mr. collins , as if his salvation was lame and decrepid . in page 56. he abuses mr. danverse , who is dead , who was cleared by several learned ministers upon the answer of an appeal of his adversaries . mr. sh●●●s's abusive and false representations of us , and false interpretation of several places of holy scripture , and gods holy ordinance of dipping believers in the name , &c. first , in page 6 he calls dipping , ducking , and the like in several other places ; as i● we had believers to a 〈◊〉 when we baptise ●●●m : and again to vili●●● that holy ordinance , in the same 6 page , he says dipping is more like a punishment of criminals , than the 〈◊〉 of an ordinance of god : yet dipping was generally owned by all pedo-baptists formerly , and by many of late . in page 7 ▪ he says , the jaylor and his house were baptized the same h●ur of the night ; whereas the text only says , he washed their s●ripes the same hour of the night , and was baptized , he and all his straight way , act. 16. 33. in page 7. he says , they were all baptized in the jaylers house ; which is a palpable abuse of the text that they did not go out of his house to a river : yet the text clearly intimates , act 16. 34. that after they were baptized , ( he ) that is , the jaylor brought them into his house . doth not that imply they went out of it ? and it might be to a river , as far as he knows . he also says , that we read not of one soul of the jaylors house , that did believe before baptized , besides the jaylor himself . whereas we read that all his house believed as well as himself , and as soon too as we read of the jaylors own faith ; so that he may as well say , the jaylor did not believe himself , before he was baptized , as so to affirm concerning his house . he says , page 11. john bapti●● baptized all that came unto him ; yet the text clearly implies , he rejected the pharisees and sadducees , bidding them to bring forth fruits meet for repentance . he asserts in page 33. that those little children our saviour saith , did believe on him , were little infants , calling them infant believers ▪ he vilifies mr. collins for leaving out in his quotations a word in one or two texts of scripture , whereas he destroys not the sense of the texts by so doing , nor done to favour his own ●●tion ▪ as that in isa. 44. 3. where his seed , 〈◊〉 put for thy seed ▪ and that in acts 2. 39. nor doth he wrong his antagonist in the least , and therefare no cause of complaint ▪ but palpable 't is , mr shutes abuses that text greatly , act ▪ 2. 39. for the promise is to you and to your children , and to all that are af●r off , even so many as the lord our god shall call . now see this mans exposition of these worth in page 71. viz. that was to all the elect gentiles and their children ; for the promise runs in the same channel , to the gentiles and their children in the text , without any variation , as is ●id to the jews and their children . answer . if he had said to the elect gentiles and to their children or off-spring also , that are elected and called , then he had not wronged the text ; for the promise , that is , that of remission of s●n , and of the holy ghost , which runs first to the jews that are called , and to their children or off-spring that are called , and so in like manner also unto the gentiles that are called , and to their off spring that shall be called , not to the jews , and their children as such , i. e. whether effectually called or not ; but to no more of the jews , nor gentiles themselves , nor their children but even so many as the lord our god shall call ▪ dr. hammond confessed this text is to little purpose brought to prove infant baptism : seeing by children is meant off-spring , and refers not to infants as such ; it certainly intends no children of jews , or gentiles , but such only who are elected , and called ones . besides , this man hath left out words in several texts of scripture quoted by himself in his book , yet blames his antagonists for so doing at a strange manner : for because i left out the words everlasting covenant , he comparies me to the devil . see page 116. in page 21. he 〈◊〉 ger. 17. 9. 10 11. but ( saith he ) neither in these ●●●ee quotations , nor in his whole book , hath 〈◊〉 so much as named that which is the quintessence of the covenant , &c. namely as everlasting covenant . the devil left out part of a scripture , &c. answer , i fear he saw but part of my book ; for 't is a great untruth which he affirms , viz. that i never named everlasting covenant ; for i , as you have heard ( in this answer ) did not only name it , but answered the argument that is raised from thence , see part 2. page 9 , 10. now that mr. shute hath left part of the words in some texts , and added words in other he hath quoted , see page 120. where he mentions the words of that text 1 cor. 15. 22. for as in adam a● dye , so in christ shall all be made al●ve ; he has wrote thus for as in adam all the elect dye , so in christ they shall all be made alive ; this is all in the same italick letter : where he adds ( elect ) and ( they ) rendring the sense as if none should have a resurrection but the elect , which is against the sense of the apostle . so in page 133. mentioning mark 16. 16. viz. he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , but he that believeth not shall be damned . he hath wrote it thus , viz. he that believeth shall be saved , but he that believeth not shall be damned . ( baptized ) is left out to favour his design , i fear ; for tho' faith be the same in every age , yet the the ordinances are not the same , under the gospel , as under the law , for baptism is no legal ordinance , nor the lords supper , &c. also he has given a false exposition on several verses , in rom. 11. and hath in so doing abused mr. collins also ; these are mr. collins words ( as repeated by mr. shute ) page 75 , 76. the natural branches are broken off , ergo childrens visible incovenanting , is repealed ; the antecedent of this enthymem is clear from the apostles assertion , rom. 11. 19 , 20 , 21. by the natural branches without controversie , is to be understood the natural seed of abraham now mr. shute leaves out mr. collins demonstration following , to prove his argument , i. e. by the branches saith he , without controversy , is to be understood the natural seed of abraham ; and the breaking off , must either be meant , from visible church-membership , and external priviledges thereunto belonging ; or the everlasting covenant of grace : it cannot , saith he , be the latter , because that covenant is immutable , therefore it must be the former . thus mr. collins : and he argues to the purpose , for 't is impossible for any to be broken off from the covenant of grace , who were once in that ; and 't is as clear that the jews or natural seed of abraham , as such , are broken off , from being any more a visible church , and that the legal covenant , for their incovenanting , i. e. both parents and children , as such , is gone and taken away ; he took away the first that he might establish the second , heb. 10. 9. there is a first , and a second , an old and a new. now the first is only taken away , as a covenant of works , do this and thou shall live ; and as it was given to the whole house of israel , by vertue of which they held their church-state , and church-membership , and all their external rites , ordinances , and priviledges , for the priesthood being changed there is made of necessity a change of the whole law , heb. 7. 12. tho' it was for the jews unbelief they were broken off , yet the dispensation being changed , it was impossible for them to keep their church-state and external legal rites , and priviledges any longer ; for 't is evident that those jews that believed in christ , abode no longer members of their old church ; but were transplanted into the gospel church ; what can be more clear than this , viz. the old house and old legal right of church-membership is overturned and r●oted out for ever ? and say i , if the covenant for incoveannting of the fleshly seed , as such , is abolished , and no new law is given forth for the bringing in again professing parents and their carnal seed , as such , what is it this man contends for , yet what a mighty stir he makes about that in rom. 11. you may see in page 76 , &c. this man makes it his main business to prove that the covenant of grace is not taken away , which we assert with as much zeal as he ; but see how he abuses the text , rom. 11. 17. viz. as those jews which were these branches were broken off , and their children with them were cast out of the covenant : so the gentiles , and all their children were taken into covenant , in their room , and did partake of the same priviledges , with those ●ews that did abide firm in the covenant , &c. 1. answer , this man doth not distinguish one covenant from another , i. e. the legal from the gospel covenant ; nay he owns but one so that he ass●rts the unbelieving jews , were broken off of the covenant of grace , and their children too ; by which he seems to plead for arminianism or final falling o●● of the covenant of grace : nay worse , i. e. that the children were broken off from the covenant of grace for their parent● sin and unbelief , 〈…〉 . for if the first fruit be holy , the lump is also holy ; and if the root be holy , so are the branches , vers . 16. ● the root is doubtless meant abraham ; but then know that abraham was a twofold 〈◊〉 as well as a twofold father , viz the root of all his natural seed , and the root or father of all his true spiritual ; now for a man to say that the apostle here refers to abraham as a natural root , and so to his natural or carnal seed as such , is to destroy the whole scope and drift of the holy ghost in this chapter ; in the close of the 10 chapter the apostle shews the jews were rejected , and the gentiles called ; and in the beginning of this 〈◊〉 . chapter he prevents an objection ; some might be ready to say if this be so , then god hath cast away his covenant people . to this he answers , vers . 2. god hath not cast away his people whom he for knew that is , his elect or the spiritual seed of abraham that were among the jews , see vers . 5. even so then o● this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace : again , in vers . 7 what then israel had not obtained , &c. ( that is the natural seed as such , ) but the election hath obtained it , and the rest were blended ; and tho' the main body of the jews were rejected for their unbelief , yet in the latter days god will call all those and bring them in , who belong to the election of grace , and so all israel , ( that is the spiritual israel ) shall be saved , see vers . 15. and ●6 . and from hence the 16. verse is brought in , viz. for if the first fruit be holy , the lump is also holy , 〈◊〉 . is the apostle speaking here of a legal federal holiness ? no , not a word of any such matter : but of such a holiness as was in the post , i. e. in abraham who was spiritually holy , being an elect person ; and to that holiness the apostle refers . viz. first in respect of gods election , personal , and inherent in gods intention . now then to apply the holiness and infection here , to outward dispensation only in the whole church , which is meant of saving grace in the invisible , and to make every believing parent a like root to his posterity with abraham to his seed , as some have done , and this man seems to do ; is a great abuse of the sacred text. for this would be to set up another wall of separation or partition betwixt ( believers and their seed , and unbelievers and their seed , ) as the old one wa● , which is now broken down between jews and gentiles according to eph. 2. 14 , 15. as also a knowing of men after the flesh , i. e. after fleshly descent , external priviledges , &c. 2. the first fruit spoken of we understand to refer to isaac , jacob , and the holy partriachs , who were given to abraham as the first fruit of the covenant of grace god made with him , who were all holy as abraham , their root was holy , that is , spiritually and inherently holy. 3. by the lump may be meant the whole body of the elect or spiritual seed of abraham , who lived from the time the first fruit was given him until the gospel days , who were all holy as the root also . by lump cannot be intended the whole nation of the jews , as mr. shute positively affirms , in page 82. for it so , what consistency can there be in the apostles words and argument ? the apostle speaks of the elect israel , not of the fleshly and carnal israel ; take this mans words the first fruit the jews , &c. the lump or whole nation of them ; and here is the same root , on which the gentiles are grassed , page 82. he confounds the first fruit and lump together , and says by it is meant the whole nation of the jews . what text can be wronged worse ? we grant 't is the same root that all gentile believers partake of the fatness of which the godly jews pertook of under the law , viz. the blessings of the covenant of grace made with the root abraham ; but what is this to our carnal seed as such ? 4. by the branches who are said to be holy also , certainly is to be understood those elect ones of israel who were living in the apostles days , as vers . 5. even so then at this time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace . now observe the apostle speaks , in vers . 17. of some branches that were broken off , and of the gentiles who were like a wild olive tree , being grassed in ; these branches that were broken off , were the unbelieving jews , who at that time comprehended the whole national church of israel ; for all that believed that were jews , were transplanted into the gospel church , these branches that were broken off sprang from the same root as abraham , was their father according to the flesh and legal covenant , and for a time seemed true branches , they were of israel , though not israel , rom. 9. 6. they were the children of the flesh , but not the children of the promise , they were in the external covenant , but being not in the covenant of grace , by faith , and the old covenant being now gone and taken away , they were cut off and no more lookt upon as branches in any sense . they were branches in the old testament church , but there is a new will made , a new and last testament confirmed , and ratifie by the death of the testatour jesus christ , and the fleshly seed as such have no such legacy , left them as in the old testament , viz. to be members of the new testament church , that running to none but to such who believe , &c. but they not believing , or for their unbelief were cut or broken off . 1. not broken off the covenant of grace , as mr. shute intimates , because they never were in that covenant . 2. not broken off gods election , for to that they did not belong : but , 3ly . they were broken off and their children as such ( or as so considered ) so that they are no more a visible church of god , nor a people in any covenant relation to him . yet we are not to conceive although those unbelieving jews were in this sense , broken off from their old standing and church state that their children who believed were rejected and lost , no , no ; they that did believe in christ and submit to the new dispensation , were by faith grafted into christ , and upon the profession of their faith were united also to the gospel church and became members thereof . and so with the believing gentiles did partake of the fatness of the covenant of grace god made with abraham , and of the blessings and priviledges of the gospel church , and doubtless this is the very truth of the matter according to the main scope and design of the holy ghost , in this chapter : now then mr. shute greatly wrongs this place of sacred scripture . 1. whilst he argues that the jews were broken off from the covenant of grace . 2. he wrongs the text , whilst he says it was no dissolution of the jewish church , but an excommunication of those unbelieving persons out of it , by which he intimates as if the jewish church state still remains , and that the believing gentiles are grafted into that old legal church that is removed and gone for ever . 3. he wrongs this text , whilst he would have all unbelievers children of the jews , broken off the covenant of grace , for to that he seems to refer : for those of them that were in it were not broken off from that covenant nor could be ; and those of the jewish children , that believed , were in the like good estate with believing gentiles , and their believing children ; and many of the children of the unbelieving jews did no doubt own jesus christ , believe in him , and were implanted into the gospel church . 4. whilst he pleads for believing getiles and their infants , as such , to be taken into the covenant of grace , and so made members of the church of christ now , as the children of the jews were members of the church , under the law ; for this he affirms page 81 , 82. 5. whilst he applies the holiness and infection here meant , to outward dispensation , only in the visible church , which is meant of saving grace in the invisible . 6. whilst he makes every believing parent a like root to his posterity with abraham to his seed , he may as well say every believer is a common father , to all that believe , as abraham was — for both these conclusions i infer from his notion . 1. reader , pray observe , that the jews that believed not , were broken off from being any more the people of god , in any covenant relation to him , and this was for their unbelief , and their church state being gone by the dispensation of the gospel , and by the bringing in the gospel church . 2. that whosoever either jews or gentiles who are grafted into christ the true olive , and into the gospel church , must believe or be grafted in by faith , i. e. by their own faith and own consent , not by the faith of their parent be made members of the church under the gospel ; no , but must believe themselves as well as their parents ; 't is not enough now to say we have abraham to our father , or that our parents were believers and in covenant , because the church now does not consist of the carnal seed , but of the true spiritual seed only . mr. shute says in page 82. to mr. collins , if you have not enough you shall have enough , before i have done with you . i am satisfied and he too , he has said too much unless it were better or to better purpose . he appeals to any experienced christian among us , or of our party to judg whether there can be a more full text of scripture produced , to prove the continuation and stability of the covenant , &c. if he will take my thoughts ( who am 't is like in his opinion as well as my own an unexperienced christian ) i must tell him he hath mistaken his antagonist and the text too : cannot the jewish legal church state go , but the covenant of grace must go , with them ? god forbid . the apostle it is evident in this chapter , rom. 11. speaks of gods election , which ran first to abrahams natural seed , according to the covenant of grace , that is , to the elect among the jews , and so argues god had not cast away his people whom he foreknew ; and from hence he shews that all that belong to the said election of grace shall be called , and in the latter days be brought in , or grafted into their own true olive tree , i. e. into christ and into the gospel covenant and church , for all ( the true ) israel shall be saved , as it is written , &c. 't is said they are holy that is they are decretively and in gods sight and intention holy : i wonder at some expositors who conclude , that it is an external relative federal holiness the apostle speaks of here , which holiness is not mentioned in all the new testament , as an eminent ▪ writer observes . and this brings me to what mr. shute says , to that text 1 cor. 7. 14. else were your children unclean , but now are they holy : which scripture he mistakes also whilst he asserts it is federal holiness , as well as matrimonial holiness , for no doubt the sanctification of the unbelieving husband to the believing wife , is the same sanctification or holiness that is said to be in the children , that is , the husband and wife were sanctified , or set apart for the use of one another , by gods ordinance of marriage , and so their children were holy , i. e. legitimate , lawfully begotten , and not bastards ; for no doubt their children that were born when both were unbelievers , were holy in the sense the apostle speaks of , as such that were born when one was a believer : but see a full answer to this text in rector rectified , from page 113. to page 120. and when he writes again let him answer what is there said mr. shute also gives a false exposition of that text , rom. 6. 3 , 4. page 15 , 16. whilst he refers there to the baptism of suffering , telling us the apostle was there exerciting the saints , to prepare for sufferings ; which is not true . likewise he abuses that text , 1 cor. 2. but god hath chosen the weak things of the world , &c. by intimating as if the apostle means little children , and who are weaker ( saith he ) than children ? page 23. also that in psa. 82. i think he would have to refer to infants , i. e. out of the mouths of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected thy praise , page 23. in page 130. that in mark 16. 16. joh. 3. 3. he applies to infants , viz. he that believes and is baptized shall be saved , but he that believes not shall be damned . and so pleads for like necessity , for infants to believe if saved , as the adult . in page 10. he seems to infer that john baptist baptized little infants , because 't is said , there went out to meet him all judea and jerusalem , and all the regions round about jordan , and were baptized . which i have answered , ax laid to the root ; in my reply to mr. exell , see 2 part page 35. to 54. in page 174. mr. shute citing rom. 11. 6. if it be by grace then it is no more of works ; he infers if dying infants are saved without faith then they must be saved by works . which is an abuse of that text ; for as the apostle speaks not of infants , so he speaks of gods grace and favour , in opposition to works o● merits , according to that in eph. 2. 8. by grace you are saved ; he puts faith in the place of grace : we say no infant can be saved but by grace ; yet we do say we see not how it can be said that infants do or can believe . and now let me infer from his notion , viz. if infants cannot believe , they must all perish and be damned , this follows clearly from what he asserts : he had need to see he is certain of what he affirms . in page 92. ( he says , ) it is common for men of our opinion to bring in , and set up our own carnal reason , in opposition to the wisdom of god ; is not this an unchristian charge ? besides , he proves not what he says , nor attempts to do it . sure some gracious person or persons he is concerned more particularly with in church-fellowship , will look upon themselves bound in duty to inquire into some of these grand enormities , false acusations , and other evils this man is found guilty of in his writings . in page 13. he says , that part of the man , woman , or child , that is baptized , must be naked ; and if the whole body must be baptized , then the whole body must be all naked also . and he quotes a passage of mr. baxter ; as if mr. tombs could , or did baptise women naked , to render such a practice odious as indeed it would be , should any do it ; but to cast that on us , is unchristianly done . in page 19. he intimates as if we had found two ways to salvation , because we know not that dying infants have faith , or can believe . in page 20. he abuses mr. collins , as if he was ignorant of any such thing as habitual faith , because he knows nothing of such habits in infants , and says he derides habitual faith , which is a notorious falsehood , and that which mr. collins abhors to do . in page 20. he would have his reader think that mr. collins had rendred mr. charnock an anabaptist , because he quoted him to detect his notion of habitual faith in infants in page 43. because mr. collins said unless children have personal actual faith , they are not to meddle with gods most holy things , mr. shute says , by this mans opinion elect dying infants must be lost and damned ; he would have those children to be infants that cryed hosanna to the son of david : for if it be not that he means it is nothing to his purpose ; for we deny not , but some little children have and may have a work of god upon their hearts , tho' not above five or six years old . in page 68. he infers four false conclusions upon mr. collins , denying faith to be in infants . 1. that god cannot work faith in young infants , because they are not able to help him , &c. doth mr. collins question gods power , or intimate god cannot work , without help of the creature ? 2. that he doth tacitly declare that god is not able to make them capable of the reception of grace . because they are not of years to exercise i● , as if mr collins did not know god was infinite in power . 3. that adult persons do qualifie themselves for the reception of grace ; or at leastwise are copartners with the spirit of grace , in the working of it . 4. if this be so , saith he , then it is not gods grace , but mans work , &c. which are all false conclusions and great abuses cast on mr. collins , and no ways to be inferred from his positions . in page 73. he renders the baptists to be cunning deceivers , take his words , i. e. i am not , saith he , all together ignorant of their devices , and stratagems by which they uphold their opinion , in which their principles are enveloped and lie dormant . in page 115. he says , benjamine keach doth reckon abraham of greater antiquity than christ. answer , this is a false charge likewise , and no such consequence can be gathered from my words , to which he refers , as my answer shews in this reply . in page 126. he saith , this author is for the saving elect dying infants by some other covenant , and not by the covenant of grace . answer , this is also false and a great abuse , for i no where hint any such thing , but say , 't is impossible any infant or adult person either should be saved by any other covenant but that tho' i say they may be saved and not be members of the visible church ; as some infants were before god made known , the covenant of circumcision and set up the legal church of israel . in page 134. he calls our doctrin a fallacious doctrin ; and knows not which to wonder at most , viz. our boldness and confidence : or our peoples ignorance to be so horribly deluded and imposed upon . what enemy could reproach us worse ? in page 113. saith he , thus i have given you one broad side more , by which i have brought your opinion by the lee , and all the carpenters and calkers in the nation cannot save it from sinking . answer , friend you mistake our , cause , and opinion is an firm and as sound as ever , and needs no carpenters nor calkers to mend those breaches you have made . in page 140. he says , thus you see the covenant god made with abraham , and all his seed both spiritual and carnal , stands fact and firm to gospel believers , and all their seed both spiritual and carnal ; notwithstanding hercules with his club and benjamin hewed it with his broad ax , they cannot destroy it , because it is an everlasting covenant . 1. answer , are these savoury expressions ? my ax friend , is gods word ; the title of that book was the words of the text , viz. the ax laid at the root , and this ax will cut down all your thorns and briers , do what you can . 2. how he hath proved that covenant god made with abraham , and his carnal seed as such , doth remain , let the reader now judg. 3 how came ( if this be so ) abraham's natural seed to be unchurched as he himself confesses in , page 37. nay that they unchurched themselves . in his postscript , page 190. he says , tho he has thus written concerning the anabaptists , and proved their congregations to be no churches , and their baptism to be a counterfeit , and their opinion sacrilegious , in that they rob the church of her treasure , &c. — these are very hard words , and also false ; for he has not done what he says , and never will , nor can he do it . an account of some of mr. shute's impertinences , inconsistences and self-contradictions . in the last place take a few of his impertinences , &c. in page 49. if you can prove , saith he , by plain scripture testimony that ever christ or any of his apostles , &c. did forbid the baptising the infant seed of believers , &c. answer , now how impertinent is this ? where did christ forbid infants of believers , the lords supper ? and indeed they may have that as well as baptism , and the first fathers that established infant baptism , gave them the lords supper also : 2. where is crossing in baptism forbid , or popists salt spittle , or crisom or other popish rites ? these in plain words are not forbid , are they therefore lawful ? if christ would have them to be baptized , it would have been expressed in the affirmative ; and is this horribly to impose our own uncouth notions as you affirm in the said 49. page of your book ? where hath christ forbid baptizing of turks , and insidels , or the children of unbelievers ? in page 98. he says the church of the jews was not a legal church , take his words , viz. the church of god under the mosaick law was not a carnal legal church . strange contradiction ! what , a church under the law and not a legal church ? he may as well say the church of god under the gospel , is not a gospel church . in page 97. he distinguishes not on the covenant made with abraham , but positively asserts that off from that covenant god made with abraham , viz. the covenant of grace , some of the natural branches were broken ; yet in contradiction to this he shews , in page 74. from psa. 89. that the covenant of grace is firm and abideth for ever , and else where shews that there 's no final falling from grace ; all those therefore say i , that are in that covenant cannot fail of salvation ; therefore those branches never were in the covenant of grace . in page 25. he says , god saves elect dying infants in no ways or means differing in any one point or part from that wherein he saves adult believers . yet in page 65. he owns infants cannot exercise grace in an ordinary way , and that nothing is required of them personally but passive obedience . is nothing required say i , of adult believers but passive obedience ? if there is then the way or mode of gods saving dying infants differs in some part or point from the way or means of saving the adult ; and clear it is that more than passive obedience is required of adult persons . one while he says all abrahams seed are in the covenant of grace god made with him , and he denies final falling out of that covenant , yet in page 12. he says , one of abrahams sons or seed is praying to him in hell : and to be abrahams seed will not serve their turn . he is for a congregational church , and yet in page 34. speaking of the gospel church , he says , all the seed of believers are members as much now as the jewish children were under the law. and that it is the same church state , tho' in another dress , and denys the dissolution of the jewish church , page 35. can a natural church consisting of whole parishes , families , and provinces , be all one with gospel congregational churches of believers only ? why did this man leave the church of england ? also then the jewish church-state by his opinion continues still : he may say the invisible church is the same now as then ; but not the visible , the matter , as well as the form is changed , — ye also as living stones are built up a spiritual house , &c. 1 pet. 2. 5. was not the gospel church gathered out of the jewish and heathenish nations , consisting only of such men and women who made a profession of their faith ? let him prove any one infant was ever received into the gospel church if he can . in page 167. he inquires whether a farmer destroys his barn or hurts the floor , when he takes a great keap of corn and chaff and winnows the corn , and fans away the chaff , &c. answer , i ask whether or no christ did not remove by the gospel dispensation , all the wheat out of the old barn , nay , and pull down that barn , viz. the jewish church , and fan quit away the carnal seed as such , and all the chaff : and erect a new garner or gospel church , into which he put his wheat , i. e. believing men and women , whether jews or gentiles . in page 136. he intimates that the essential part of circumcision is baptism , and that the essential part thereof remaineth in the flesh still . answer , then say i , circumcision could not be circumcision without baptism , nor baptism be baptism without circumcision , which is such a piece of stuff and impertinences as i never met with all ; can a thing be where the essence or the essential part of it is wanting ? in page 130. he intimates , because i deny infants to have right to baptism ( or that they can believe ) that i assert two ways to be saved . he also there says , viz. there is no saving any person old or young without the grace of faith ; he cites mark 16. 16. joh. 3. 16. thus you see , saith he , there is but one way to eternal life , either for old or young , that is , through faith in the righteousness and merits of christ. wo be to poor infants then say i , if they cannot believe as the adult do ; if it be thus , we say there 's no way to be saved , but by christ's merrits and righteousness imputed , and that infants must be sanctified that are saved also ; but yet we dare not say they do or can be said , to believe as the adult , and if they do not they must be damned according to his notion because that is true of all the adult that believe not . one while he seems to say that the infants of believers as such , have habitual faith. at another time confesses he cannot prove , that this or that infant of believers hath faith , or the habit of it , without he had a new bible , page 45. doubtless the tree is known by the fruit if we speak of the adult , we may know who do believe ; ( though i deny not but we may be mistaken in some ; ) how did paul know that the saints at thessalonica were elected , 1 thes. 1. 4 , 5. knowing , beloved , your election of god. he shews how he came to know they had true faith , and were elected , for our gospel came not to you in word only , but in power , &c. mr. shute says in page 1. 90 that the anabaptists congregations be hath proved no churches , and their baptism to be a counterfeit , and their opinion sacrilegious . yet he hath communion at the lords table with some of them who have this counterfeit baptism , and deny infants to be the subjects of that ordinance , and sprinkling to be baptizing and so are guilty of like sacrilege with us , there being divers baptists in that church to whom he belongs . an appendix ; being a reply to mr. shute's last single sheet , in answer to mr. collins's half sheet ; wherein the covenant of circumcision , &c. and free promise of grace , god made to abraham , are further and distinctly opened ; shewing how they differ from each other . since i wrote this reply to mr. shutes last book , i have met with a single sheet , which he calls an answer to mr. hercules collins last shift , &c. which discovers more of his bitter spirit , and what ill influences he is under , — i thought it not amiss to make some remarks upon this sheet , tho' i suppose mr. collins will think himself concerned to vindicate his innocency , from his undue , unchristian , and false charges : this paper of mr. shutes manifesteth very great confidence touching his notions of the covenant god made with abraham , and as much ignorance : as will quickly appear to all discerning men who shall read it . in page 1st he says , i have cleared and vindicated the aforesaid antidote from that foul aspersion , and totally confuted all the aspersors in my last book , in the judgment of all wise judicious and impartial persons that have read it . answer , let those wise persons he speak of , first read this precedent answer to his book and then let them impartially judg of it . in page 2. he speaks of mr. collins his five arguments to prove the covenant of peculiarity god made with abraham . to this mr. shute says , pray where do you find this distinction concerning the everlasting covenant god made with abraham , and his seed ? answer , you shall see friend that there is such a distinction found in the scripture , and that your reverend ministers confirm the same thing , viz. that god made a covenant with abrahams natural seed as such , which is removed ; and also a covenant with abrahams spiritual seed as such , which runs to christ , and all that are his elect ones ( see gal. 3. 16. now to abraham ) and his seed were the promises made . he saith not , and to seeds , as of many ; but as of one , and to thy seed , which is christ. compared with verse 29. and if ye be christs , then are ye abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise . now friend , if you say this promise which the apostle speaks of , ( which is the everlasting covenant of grace , god made with abraham ) was made with many , i. e. both with abrahams natural and spiritual seed as such , you contradict the holy ghost . paul says , and not to seeds as of many , but you say to seeds , i. e. all his natural and spiritual seed , page 5. see also rom. 9. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. they are not all israel , which are of israel : neither because they are the seed of abraham , are they all children : but in isaac shall thy seed be called . that is , they which are the children of the flesh , these are not the children of god : but the children of the promise ( mark it ) are accounted for the seed . is not that distinction mr. collins speaks of , clearly laid down in these scripture ? doth not the apostle exclude the carnal seed of abraham as such ; from being included in the covenant of grace ? 2. i need not go about to prove , there was a covenant made with abraham and all his natural seed as such , since that is so clearly and fully spoken of in the scripture ; viz. that the whole house of israel both parents and children , were taken into the legal covenant and all were members of the jewish church ; read gen. 17. 9 , 10 , 12 , dent. 29. 9 , 10 , 11. 12 , 13. but that legal covenant we affirm is abrogated and taken away : if it were not so , what is it which our apostle speaks in heb. 10. 9. he took away the first , that he might establish the second . compared with heb. 8. 7 , 8 , 13. sure none can once immagin that this covenant was the covenant of grace : also what doth the apostle mean when he says , cast out the bond woman and her son , gal. 4. 30. doth he not tell us by the bondwoman is meant the old covenant given to the whole house of israel , or the lineal seed of abraham ; not the covenant given to all mankind in the first adam ; and doth he not tell us by the son of the bond-woman is meant the fleshly seed of abraham as such ? who were all taken into covenant with god under the old testament : and yet is there no covenant that peculiarly was made with abrahams natural seed , as such . in page 7. mr. shute repeats . gen. 17. 7. and i will establish my covenant between me and thee , and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant , to be a god to thee and to thy seed after thee . here he leaves out the following verse , wherein the covenant is mentioned ( which he charges as an high crime in others ) viz. this is my covenant , which ye shall keep between me , and you , and thy seed after thee ; every man-child among you shall be circumcised . verse 10. and ye shall circumcise the flesh of your fore-skin , and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you , verse 11. he that is born in thy house , and he that is bought with thy mony , must needs be circumcised : and my covenant shall be in your flesh ; for an everlasting covenant , verse 13. these verses he cites not . now mr. shute judges this covenant is the covenant of grace made with abraham , and that for two reasons ( as i suppose . ) 1. because 't is called an everlasting covenant . 2. because god promised in this covenant to be the god of abraham , and the god of his seed after him in their generations , which no doubt refers to his natural seed as such . taking in both those of his off-spring that did believe in christ to come , and such also that did not so believe that proceeded from abrahams loins by isaac . 1. as to the term everlasting , i have shewed in the precedent , answer , that some times in the scripture it is taken with restriction , and denotes only a long period of time , viz. during that dispensation , or until the m●ssi●s should come● ; the priesthood of aaron is upon the same account called an everlasting priesthood . indeed this covenant could continue no longer than the token of it abode or was to abide in their flesh : read the words again verse 13. and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant . 2. circumcision being as our adversaries say , the seal of the covenant , now , say i , since the seal , namely circumcision , is broken off and gone , as it was it at the death of christ : i ask what is become of that covenant it was a sign or seal of , is not the covenant gone and dissolved , when 't is cancelled ? 〈◊〉 , read your annotators on gen. 17. 13. and ●●r the sign of it , say they , it is so called , because it was to indure through all generations till the coming of the messias , the word olim here and elsewhere rendred everlasting or for ever , being 〈◊〉 used to express not only simple eternity , but any long continuance for ma●●ages , 〈◊〉 some time for a mans life , exod. 21. ● . deut. 15. 17. ● king 9. 3. thus mr. pools annotations . this being so , to what purpose do you make such a stir about the word everlasting ? ●ly . as to this second reason , viz. god in that covenant gave himself to abraham to be his god , and the god of his seed in their generations . 1. answer , i would know whether god is now in covenant with abrahams natural seed as such ; or are they not rejected ? how then could this be the unchangeable covenant of grace ? read my 14. arguments in the precedent answer , to prove the covenant of circumcision was not the covenant of grace . 2. was god the god of all abrahams carnal seed as such ; by way of special interest ? if so , they shall no doubt be all eternally saved ; as well as all the children or carnal seed of believers : which you will not admit of . therefore consider that god may be said to be the god of a people , two manner of ways . 1. by the free promise or covenant of grace , in a spiritual sense : or by divine union with him , through faith and the indwelling of the holy spirit ; 't is this gives special interest in god to all adult persons , and thus he was not the god of all abrahams carnal seed , no , but of a few of them only comparatively , for tho' the number of the children of israel be as the sands of the sea , yet but a remnant shall be saved . 2. god may be said to be the god of a people , by entring into an external , outward or legal covenant with them ; and thus he was the god of abraham , and of all his carnal seed or off-spring , or whole house of israel : under the old covenant , or dispensation of the law : god made them as a nation , a peculiar people unto himself , and was said to be married to them . see dr. bates one of your own ministers in his sermon preached at mr. baxters funeral . 1. he shews that god is the god of all mankind by creation . 2. god is the god of a people , upon the account of external calling and profession ; and thus , saith he , the posterity of ▪ seth , are so called ; and the intire nation of the jews &c. friend , this i desire you to weigh well , for god was not by way of special interest , in a spiritual sense the god of abrahams carnal seed as such : therefore it was this external covenent , no doubt that mr. cotton intends when he says the ministry of john the baptist did burn as an oven , and left the jews neither the root of abrahams covenant , nor the branches of their own good works , co●ton on the covenant page 21 , 22 friend , you speak as if your ministers had 〈◊〉 those notions of yours into you , about the covenant god made with abraham ; i am satisfied you abuse your ministers ; i am sure dr. owen taught you no such doctrin , as i have already shewed ; and i shall here again faithfully cite two or three passages more of that reverend minister of christ : see his exposition on the 8th chapter to the hebrews , page 219 , &c. 1. he shews that the covenant god made with the whole house of israel , was not that ministration of the covenant of works god made with all men in the first alam . 2. that it was not the covenant of grace : 1. saith he , page 224. the old covenant , the original covenant of works made with alam and all mankind in him is not intended , for this is undoubtedly a covenant different in the essence and substance of it from the new. in page 219. he saith , but it is evident that the covenant intended , was a covenant wherein the church of israel walked with god , until such time as this better covenant was solemnly introduced , this is plainly declared in the ensuing context , he says , it was bec●me old and ready to disappear . wherefore it is not the covenant of works made with adam , that is intended when this other is said , to be a better covenant : thus the doctor . friend doth not he hereby clearly lay down a covenant of peculiarity made with abrahams natural seed as such , or a covenant that only and peculiarly belonged to them ; and 't is as plain this began in that covenant god made with abraham . in page 288. he saith , we must grant two distinct covenants to be intended rather than a twofold administration of the same covenant meerly to be intended . he also shews that the old covenant which god made with the natural seed of abraham could not be the covenant of grace , because there was no reconciliation with god , nor salvation to be obtained by vertue of that covenant . observe the doctor speaks not of adams covenant , but of that covenant god gave to the whole house of israel , or natural seed of abraham . he further shews that the covenant of grace , untill christ came , was only contained in promise , by which covenant , all that lived under the old testament who had faith in it were saved , to abraham and his seed was the promise made , gal. 3. 16. that was the covenant of grace , therefore say we , the covenant of circumcision , and sinai covenant where there was mutual stipulation betwixt god and the whole house of israel , could not be the covenant of grace ; besides , 't is said that that covenant they broke , and by so doing , lost all the external blessings of it , as the prophet zach. chap. 11. 10 , 14. shws , because of the jews unbelief , and putting the messiah to death , god broke his covenant with that people . zech. 11. 10. and i took my staff , even beauty , and cut it asunder : that i might break my covenant which i made with all the people . what is become now of your everlasting covenant , god made with all the people of israel or natural seed of abraham ? is it not gone , are his carnal seed as such still in covenant with god , or are they not with their external legal covenant cast out ? sir the everlasting covenant of grace , that stands firm 't is true , that is confirmed by the oath of god , and blood of christ ; but the covenant in which was contained circumcision , and all the legal rites and jewish church , and church-membership is gone and taken away . the new covenant is not according to that old covenant god made with the whole house of israel or carnal seed of abraham ; if it be not according to it , then it was not the same in essence , nature or quality : see jer. 31. 32. 1. this , saith the doctor , is the nature and substance of that covenant , which god made with that people ( viz. ) a peculiar temporary covenant , &c. page 235. mark it reader . he adds and concurs with the lutherans , who deny that by the two covenants is meant only a twofold administration of the same covenant , but that two covenants , substantially distinct are intended . `1 . because in the scripture they are often so called , and compared with one another , and some times opposed to one another ; the first and the last , the new and the old . 2. because the covenant of grace in christ is eternal , immutable , always the same , obnoxious unto no alteration , no change or abrogation , neither can these things be spoken of it with respect unto any administration of it , as they are spoken of the old : page 226 , 227. 1. he shews again that by the old covenant is not intended the covenant of works made with adam page 227. when , 2. we speak of the new covenant , saith he , we do not intend the covenant of grace absolutely , as though that were not in being and efficacy before the introduction of that which is promised in this place : for it was always the same as to the substance of it . from the beginning it passed through the whole dispensation of times , before the law and under the law , of the same nature and efficacy unalterable everlasting , ordered in all things and sure . — again he saith , when god renewed the promise of it to abraham , he is said to make a covenant with him , and he did so , but it was with respect unto other things ( mark it ) especially the proceedings of the promised seed from his loins ; but absolutely under the old testament it consisted only in a promise : and as such only is proposed in the scripture . page 227. it appears that the doctor understands the covenant god made with abraham , as we do viz. the promise to abrahams seed , viz. christ and all eternal blessings with him , to intend the covenant of grace ; but whereas it is said god made a covenant with abraham , &c. that has respect to other things , that which concerned his natural seed and out of whose loins christ was to come , that 's the covenant of peculiarity ; he proceeds and gives three reasons why the covenant of grace could not absolutely in it self , but in the promise of it only be called a formal ) covenant : page 227. 1. because it wanted its solemn confirmation and establishment by the blood of the only sacrifice , which belonged unto it ; before this was done in the death of christ , it had not the formal nature of a covenant , &c. 2. this was wanting , ( saith he ) it was not the spring , rule and measure of all the worship of the church i e. this doth belong unto every covenant , properly so called , that god makes with the church ; that is the intire rule of all the worship that god requires of it , which is that they are to restipluate in their entrance into covenant with god ; but so the covenant of grace was not under the old testament , for god did require of the church many duties of worship , that did not belong thereunto ; but now under the new testament this covenant , with its own seals and appointments is the only rule and measure of all acceptable worship , wherefore the new covenant promised in the scripture and here opposed unto the old , is not the promise of grace , mercy , and life , and salvation by christ , absolutely considered , but as it had the formal nature of a covenant given unto it in its establishment by the death of christ , &c. page 227. 1. now pray observe , does not the doctor clearly hint thereby , that no rite , sign , or seal properly of the old testament can be a rite sign or seal properly of the new covenant , how then could circumcision be the seal of the said covenant of grace ? 2. it is evident in the covenant of circumcision , there was a restipulation at their entrance into that covenant with god , so that that was a formal covenant , but the covenant of grace , he tells us was no formal covenant ; but only a free promise under the old testament . therefore there was two covenants held forth in gods transactions with abraham . first a formal covenant made with him and all his fleshly seed , of which circumcision was a sign at their entrance into it , which they thereby subscribed unto . secondly , the covenant of grace held forth only in gods free promise to him . 3. whilst the church enjoyed all the spiritual benefits of the promise ( faith he ) wherein the substance of the covenant of grace was contained , before it was confirmed and made the sole rule of worship , unto the church , it was not inconsistent with the holiness and wisdom of god , to bring any other covenant ( mark it ) or prescribe unto it forms of worship he pleased : page 228. then he proceeds further . 1. that this covenant did not ( saith he ) disannul or make in effectual the promise , but that it doth still continue the only means of life and salvation , and that this was so our apostle proves at large , gal. 3. 17 , 18 , 189. 2. that this other covenant with all the worship contained in it , or required , by it , did but direct and lead unto the future establishment of the promise , in the solemnity of a covenant , &c. by these words and in other places he shews , that , that covenant god made with abrahams natural seed or whole house of israel , tho' it was not the covenant of grace : yet it was given in subserviency unto the gospel covenant . 3. these things being observed , ( saith he , ) we may consider that the scripture doth plainly and expresly make mention of two testaments , or covenants , and distinguishes between them in such a way , as what is spoken cannot hereby be accommodated unto a twofold administration of the same covenant ; the one is mentioned exod. 20. deut 5. namely the covenant god made with the people of israel , &c. the other promised jer. 31. 31. cap. 32. 40. which is the new gospel covenant as before explained : and these two covenants or testaments are compared with the other , 2 cor. 3. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , gal. 4. 24 , 25. heb. 7 , 22. chap. 9. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. page 228. these things being , so it follows that the doctor utterly overthrows , what mr. john flavel and other pedo baptists assert about the covenant made with the people of israel at sinai , to which circumcision appertained , viz. that it was only administration of the covenant of grace , and not a distinct covenant . 1. the doctor then proceeds in page 229. to prove that the covenant made with israel according to the flesh , did not abrogate the covenant of works god made with adam , and substitute that in the room of it . 2. but that it revived , declared , and expressed all the commands of that covenant in the decalogue , that being nothing but a divine summary of the law written in the heart . — says he . 3. it revived the sanction of the first covenant in the curse or sentence of death which it denounced against all transgressors , death was the penalty of the transgression of the covenant of works . ` so say i , was death , the penalty of the transgression of the covenant of circumcision ; the male-child the flesh of whose fore-skin is not cut off , shall dye the death ; which clearly shews it was of the same nature of the sinai covenant . 4. it revived the promise , saith he , of that covenant of eternal life , upon perfect obedience , rom. 10. 5. so say i , did the covenant of circumcision , in that he that was circumcised was bound to keep the whole law gal 5. 3. now , saith the doctor , this is no other but the covenant of works revieved ; nor had this covenant of sinai any such promise of eternal life annexed to it as such , but only the promise inseparable from the covenant of works which is revieved , saying , do this and li●ve . hence , saith he , when our apostle disputeth against justification by the law , or by the works of the law , he doth not intend the works peculiar , unto the covenant of sinai ; such as were the rites and ceremonies of the worship then instituted , but he intends also the works of the first covenant , &c. let this be well considered , for 't is from hence paul excludes circumcision , rom. 4. as being a work or duty opposed to faith , and so appertaining to the old covenant . he then proceeds in sixteen particulars to prove that the two covenants differ from each other , page 236 , 237 , &c. 1. that they differ in circumstance . 2. that they differ in the circumstance of place , gal 4. 24 , 25. 3. that they differ in the manner of their promulgation , 4. in their mediators . 5. that they differ in their subject matter , both as unto the precepts and promises , all sin forbid upon pain of death , and gave promise of life upon perfect obedience , no promise of grace to communicate spiritual strength to assist in obedience . had , promises of temporal things in the land of canaan , in the new covenant , saith he , all things otherwise . 6. that they differ in the manner of their dedication and sanction , that they differ in their substance and end , the old covenant was typical , shadowy & removable , heb. 10. 1. that they differ in their extent of their administration , the first was confined unto the posterity of abraham according to the flesh , &c. excluding all others from the participation of the benefits of it . but the administration of the new covenant is extended unto all nations under heaven . that they differ in their efficacy , the old made nothing perfect , the first covenant saith he , became a special covenant unto that people , that people were the posterity of abraham , page 232. sir , what think you now of two covenants , and of a covenant of peculiarity with abraham's carnal seed ? you must consult your ministers better before you write again . i doubt not but your pastor is of dr. owens judgment in this matter . in page 5. you say , in my last book i have clearly made out , that whatsoever the covenant god made with abraham , was to himself and seed both spiritual and carnal that were in the covenant , is the same now to believers and all their seed , &c. 1. answer , then it follows , that abrahams carnal seed who were ungodly persons , were in the covenant of grace ; for circumcision belonged to them and their male children as far forth as it did appertain , to believers and their male children who were of his race . 2. it will follow then also , that we gentiles that believe , and our natural off-spring have the same right to the land of canaan , and all other priviledges of the jewish church with abrahams carnal seed . there is no ways to save your self from the greatest absurdities imaginable , without distinguishing between those two covenants and the two seeds , or between the covenant of circumcision made with abraham , &c. and the promise of the covenant of grace made to him , and to all his spiritual seed as such . 3ly that christ should come out of abrahams loins according to the flesh , and of none else was in that covenant god made with him , and a special part it was , of the covenant of circumcision , and was that made to the gentiles that believe , or was it not peculiar to abrahams seed only according to the flesh. 4. also when the apostle speaks of the gospel which god preached to abraham , or promise of the covenant of grace ; he doth not mention the covenant of restipulation in gen. 17. 7 , 8 , 9. but that in gen. 12. 3. chap. 18. 18. and chap. 22. 8. in thy seed shall all nations be bless●d : mark it well . you say , the covenant god made with abraham and his seed was never repealed , nor dissolved , nor their church state taken up by the roots at the coming in of the gospel ; for if it had , say you , how cou●d the blessing of abraham , come upon the gentiles , as promised gen. 12. 3. 1. answer , is not the jewish church state dissolved , and doth not dr. owen tell you their old covenant is gone ? yet , 2. do we say , the promise of the new covenant god made to abraham is dissolved ? god forbid , for that is unalterable , and by the vertue of which it is that believing gentiles partake of the blessings of abraham . but friend , the gentiles receive not the blessings of abraham through the law , nor through the covenant of circumcision , but by faith in the promise of the covenant of grace made with abraham , viz. in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed . nay abraham himself , 't is evident , received not that blessedness in the covenant of circumcision , that faith was reckoned to abraham for righteousness , the apostle asserts rom. 4. 9. how was it then reckoned ? when he was in circumcision , or in uncircumcision ? not in circumcision , but in uncircumcision . verse 10. there was no need of this distinction , if circumcision appertained to the covenant of grace ; we see how 't is contra-distinguished to the covenant of faith : and he received circumcision , a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had , yet being uncircumcised : that he might be the father of all that believe , though they be not circumcised ; that righteousness might be imputed to them also . from hence i argue that circumcision was a seal to none but abraham . 1. because it is said to be a seal of the righteousness of the faith , abraham had being yet uncircumcised for so it could not be a seal to others , because they were circumcised before they believed . 2. because also it was to assure him of that peculiar blessing and priviledge of being the father of all that believe . — and none had that prerogative but abraham only . 3. take this argument . if abraham received the spiritual blessing , viz. righteousness and justification by faith in the promise of the covenant of grace made to him , and received not the blessing of righteousness and justification in the covenant of circumcision ; then there were two covenants contained in those covenant , transactions of god with abraham . but the former , and latter is true . ergo there were two covenants contained in those covenant transactions god made with abraham . in page 3. mr. shute says , the olive tree or covenant god made with abraham , was not dissolved : for the jews are to be grafted into their own olive tree again ; but if the covenant were dissolved and repealed , how can they be taken into it again ; for ▪ 't is called their own olive tree , rom. 11. 11 , 12 , 17. 1. answer this man mistakes the holy ghost : the apostle speaks not of the jews , as being abrahams carnal seed as such , but of th●m that belong to the election of grace ▪ 2. now who doubts but that the covenant of grace was their covenant , or olive tree , even all of them that shall be taken into it of the jewish race , in the latter days , as much as it was their covenant , who were jews and elect ones who lived in the apostles time . 3. it might be called their olive tree or covenant , because the covenant of grace as it was made with abraham , ran first to his natural seed who were the children of the promise , i. e. the elect of god ; hence christ said he was not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of israel : that is , not first sent , they were first to have the offer of all new covenant grace and blessings ; to them appertained the covenant and adoption , &c. viz. in the first place . 4. do we plead for the dissolution of the covenant of grace , god made with or promised to abraham , because we say the legal and external covenant made with him and his carnal seed , as such is removed , by vertue of which they had their political church state , and visible church-membership and all other fleshly and legal priviledges ? or do we say , those jews that believed or their elect infants were cast out of the covenant of grace ? god forbid . no , for if the children of unbelieving jews did believe , it shews they are in covenant also . in a word . all that believe , let them be whose children they will , they are all in the covenant of grace : for there is now no difference , jews and gentiles , old and young , bond and free , are all one in christ jesus . now no knowing men after the flesh , i. e. upon the account of fleshly or external priviledges , by descent from abraham according to the flesh : circumcisioa nor uncircumcision , availeth nothing , but a new creature ; old things are past away and all things are become new 2. cor. 5. 17. should this man object and say , as to dr. owen he speaks of the sinai covenant , or the covenant made with the people of israel , after they came out of egypt , and not of the covenant of circumcision . answer , i answer that it is evident where paul excludes the law as not being of faith , nor the covenant of grace , but opposed unit , he also excluded upon the same foot of account circumcision , rom. 4. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. gal. 3. 21. gal 5. 3. rom. 2. 25 , 26 , 27. also mr. sbute says , the covenant , deut. 29. 11 , 12 , 13. is the same g●● made with abraham : take his own words ●age 17. note this ( saith he ) by the way , he hath dropt the 13. verse , wherein is the explanation of the covenant to be the same god made with abraham and his seed . which verse doth indeed clearly shew that the covenant of circumcision was the same ( and but a farther establishment of it ) with that given in horeb , thou shalt enter into covenant with the lord thy god , &c. viz. that he may establish thee to day , for a people to himself , and that he may be unto thee agod , as he hath said unto thee , and hath vowed unto thy fathers abraham , isaac , and jacob. you ask , what was the personal actual sin which those young babes committed at the coming in of the gospel , that provoked god to cast them out of covenant ? for you do own that the seed of believers were once in covenant , and were church-members ; but if you cannot prove what the transgression was , then all your arguments ought to be committed to the custody of the essex jayl keeper thus mr. shute . answer , you should first prove it was a gracious priviledge to babes or the carnal seed of abraham , that they were in the legal covenant and national church of israel , before you ask that question . the apostle says not , that circumcision was a priviledg , unless they kept the law , and by it they were obliged to keep it perfectly , and hence it is called a yoke of bondage . 2. it was not for the sins of little babes , that the legal covenant and legal church was dissolved , at the coming in of the gospel : but it was the will and pleasure of god to take that covenant away , that he might establish the second and better covenant . and god it appears hath done infants no hurt hereby , since the promise of god made to abraham , touching salvation by christ in the covenant of grace stands fast for ever , and is brought in , and established to all the elect , both of jews first ; and also of the gentiles . true , the unbelieving jews were cast off for not believing , for had they believed they had pertaken of like gospel grace with those that did believe : but the believing jews and their children did no longer abide in that national church to which they once belonged , nor were their children until they believed , received into the gospel church ; yet i affirm that was no spiritual loss to those babes , seeing there was no righteousness nor salvation to be had by the law , legal covenant , nor circumcision . mr. collin● will not say that believers and their seed only were in the legal covenant and in the legal church , but all unbelievers also , and their children who sprung from isaacs loyns , were in the same covenant , and were church-members , and that by gods appointment too ; as far forth as were the godly or believing jews , and their children : and friend , it should appear that among abrahams carnal seed there were but a very small remnant that were believers ; tho' all were in the legal covenant then , and where churhmembers . 3. say you , you must prove that the gospel brought less grace with it , than the abrogated law carried way . answer , the abrogated law had no grace in it at all ; grace came not by the law , but by jesus christ ; the law is not of faith. 4. here ( say you , ) you confound ●nd contradict your self ; for you say the church is established upon better promises , which i do own and have proved in my book , but the church state is the same , and therefore that of it self is a sufficient argument to prove that all children of christian believers are still in covenant . answer , must the carnal seed be members of the gospel-church as under the law , or is it else not a better covenant that god has established ? friend , many other external priviledges as well as that is gone , the sons of our minishers as such , have no right to the ministry now ; yet all the sons of ministers as such , had that right under the law : besides , we have no land of canaan nor glorious external temple , no promise of gathering earthly riches , no political state of government among our selves ; yet is the gospel church state & gospel covenant better than that under the law. an account of mr. shutes scurrilous language as to the rest of this sheet : i shall only make some remarks on his hard reproachful and opprobrious words and abuse of scripture . in page 2. he compares mr. collins with the jews , as if his arguments were of like nature with theirs who said , we have a law , and by our ●aw he ought to dye . in page 5. you do but beat the air , and shoot all your arrows against a brazen wall , and there is no more work for the club nor ax. answer , he may perceive he was mistaken , for the ax hath not done with him yet . he in the said 5. page abuses that text , better promises , these are his words , viz. for the promises are better , and that chiefly because circumcision was changed for baptism . answer , doth the holy ghost there refer to this change , or is baptism a promise or a precept ? he abuses that text in acts 15. 10. the former ( saith he meaning circumcision ) wherein infants were chiefly concerned , was such a yoke as they nor their fathers were able to bear , they were not able to see their childrens flesh cut off , and we have an instance of this in zipporah , what made her in such a passion with moses her husband , as that she called him a bloody husband twice ? why she tells you her self , it was because of the circumcision . answer , in this he seems to charge the holy god , who appointed and commanded circumcision , as if it was more like a punishment of criminals than an ordinance of god ; as he calls di●ping of believers in the name , &c. 2. was it from the pain that circumcision put the infants to , that the apostle calls it a yoke , that neither they nor their fathers could bear ? or was it not rather because it lay them under an obligation to keep the whole law ? for our apostle , so says in gal. 5. 3. i testifie again to every man that is circumcised , that he is a debtor to do the whole law , compared with rom. 2. 25. 3. he abuses that text exod. 4. 15 , 16. let him read his annotators , she called her husband a bloody husband or a spouse of blood , because she by blood as it were , redeemed her husbands life . god being provoked against moses , as the 14. verse shews , and she prevented his danger by circumcising her son. 2. if she referr'd to circumcision it self , as he takes it , yet she being a midianitisb woman t●●t would not justifie him , thus to reflect on that holy rite and ordinance of god. in page 6. says he , so this question may be sent to essex among the barren jayl keepers . is it safe to scoff and make a sport when we write about sacred things ? he also reflects upon the whole party of the baptists ; as if we were fallen from our former principles about humane learning . i cannot ( says he ) but observe how much this people are swerved from their first principles : for it is not long since they decried humane learning , and also making a trade of preaching , — but if they can get a few shreds or broken fragments of learning , or a learned man on their side , they are ready to make an idol of it , and now they make a trade of preaching , page 16. &c. answer , it appears 't is the whole party he strives to bring into contempt : but let him take heed of belying so gracious a people as the adversaries themselves confess them to be ; did we ever decry humane learning , because we believe and ever did that it is not an essential qualification in a minister ? we are no more for it now than ever we were and we did and do believe that those who preach the gospel , ought to live of the gospel . he renders mr. collins no better than a jesuite ; take his words , this man hath confidence and deceit enough to make a swinging jesuite , &c. page 16. again , he says , this deceitful man hides the sense and meaning of them from the world ; doth not this saviour of great malice ? page 16. he says infants have faith , yetin page 10. ( of his book ) he asketh what personal faith a child is capable of acting in an ordinary way ; or what good fruit such children are capable to bring forth ? 1. in page 8. he renders those false teachers , who say that the covenant god made with abraham is repealed , viz. the covenant of circumcision ; he may see that we deny that the promise or covenant of grace god made with abraham is repealed tho' we say the covenant of circumcision god made with him is repealed . 2. such he says are false teachers who say the church state under the law was carnal . 3. such as deride and scoff at habitual faith in dying infants ; mr. collins owns not such faith to be in infants is he therefore a false teacher . but how does he prove he derides or scoffs , &c. 4. such who take upon them the work of the ministry without gods call , or being gifted or qualified he says are false teachers . such we grant are not true ministers ; but doth not he , think you , refer to such who were not trained up in school learning ? i doubt not but our call from god to the ministry is as good as others have , tho' may be not every ways so well qualified as we ought ; yet humane learning is no qualification left by the holy spirit in the scripture . in page 7. he says , in this authors former book he hath by excluding infants from baptism exclud them from eternal life and salvation ; dying in their infancy . how false that is let all men judg who have read mr. collins book , he refers unto page 41. in page 10. he says , how wilfully blind and dishonest are you thus falsly to quote my words . i can see no reason for those unchristian expressions , in page 11. he says i suppose he means a long white shift , as if we baptized persons in a white shift : what sport is here for the enemies of religion ? tho' i deny that women were baptized in that undecent immodest shameful way and manner , saith he . he means by dipping the whole body : god saith he , never appointed an ordinance to draw out and gratifie mens lusts , page 11. o see what contempt he doth cast upon that way of baptising , which all christians used for many hundred of years in the church , and which christ appointed to the end of the world. you represent to the world , as if our way of baptising were immodest , and done not as comely , or of good report ; for this you are to be accountable to the most high god. friend , if you please to come and see our order in the administration of that ordinance , i doubt not , but you will be convinced of your error , and be forc'd to say , that the subject goeth with more sobriety and modesty , to the sacrament of baptism , than thousands do to the hearing of gods word , or to the sacrament of the lord's supper . in page 12. therefore , saith he , there is no more work for the club nor the ax ; you may lay them by as useless , or hang them up in merchant taylors hall. you may know what he intends , and is not this like those who said , is not this the carpenter , &c. see what a strange prayer he makes in page 15 ; where he pleads his innocency , god is a gracious god ; and i think the man is acted in zeal , but not according to knowledg ; in page 11. he says , our author hath coined a brand new epithet , to cover that unseemly luxurious way of tripping and dipping women , &c. in page 18. he would suggest that mr. collins is possessed with a devil : people say there is a maid , saith he , possessed in wapping ; for my part i think there is a man poss●ss●d also ; hard words . in page 20. he boasts as if anabaptism it self hath resigned up the ghost , and this may serve for its funeral sermon . in page 21. he breaks out , i cannot tell what to think of this man ( meaning ▪ mr. collins ) that should dare to have the confidence , as to put out such scu●rilous abominable false and scandalous things . friend , what shall we think of you and your papers ? in page 23. he renders the answering books that are put out against infant baptism , a raking in dunghils , and therefore such a one as he , he thinks , is fit to do it . in page 191. of this last book he , says that they ( meaning the independant congregations ) are not true churches , or else we are not : i know no reason for this , for i doubt not but they are true churches , as well as we , they being godly christians , tho' i do believe they may be less compleat churches : then those who are baptized upon the profession of faith , or not so orderly in their constitution besides they have received ( as we judge a tradition of man in the stead of christs institution . this man says , he can have communion with those of our opinion , yet says our baptism is a counterfeit and we guilty of sacriledge , page 190. but friend , i see not how they can have communion with you without repentance , considering all the hard words uttered by you : you know who saith men must give an account of all their hard speeches , &c. god grant those i have mentioned , and these following may not be laid to your charge calling our baptism a mock baptism , and us diving anticovenanters , preaching without a call suggesting as if under diabolical possession , calling jesuite , swinging jesuite ; calling dipping , which was the apostolical way of baptising , more like a punishment of criminals , &c. asserting that we make no better of infants than dogs , calling our doctrin mountebank , &c. and a minister a c c , by which 't is concluded you intend coxcomb , asserting we have crasty positions , uncouth glosses , that we mince and limit the fundamental doctrin of mans salvation , to conclude , let the reader take notice of this , viz. were it not more for the honour of god and love to truth , i had not concerned my self with so lin●le an antagoni●● as this is . ● and in reproach call some arminians , sacinians , others gone back to judaism , some gormandisers feasting on legs of muiton ; in some places reflecting on mens honest callings god by his providence called them once unto ; that our doctrin damns infants , &c. whether these speeches he ought not publickly to acknowledg as evil ? is not this as bad as to call his brother raca , i. e. a vain person in anger or malice . cant men write upon controversible points without such bitterness , and reviling language ? i desire friend , you would go to god in prayer , and intreat for pardon through christs blood , and no longer rest in such a spirit and practice : christ is at the door , take heed of smiting your fellow servant . but should you instead of answering our arguments proceed still after the same manner , we shall find out another way to deal with you , viz. bring our charge against you for right and justice to the congregation you belong unto : the lord send , and increase love and charity among his people , and unite them together in one spirit , which he will suddenly do and wipe off our reproach ; to whom be glory and praise for ever and ever , amen . errata . in page 5. line 7. for burkie read burkit p. 8. l. 20. blot out blood , p. 16. l. 37. f. contained r. contrived , p. 19. l. 28. f. comma , r. period . also in several other places you will find false pointing or stops . p. 22. blot out the comma in l. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25. they being this authors words ; p. 27. l. 10. add gen. 17. 8 , 9. there begins the covenant of peculiarity . p. 32. l. 29. f. purity r. parity , p. 38. l. 3. f. usurp'd r. absur'd , p. 39. l. 18. f. ratifie r. ratified , p. 41. l. 39. f. have r. have had , p. 42. l. 3. f. tho' r. the , p. 29. l. 31. add as to outward dispensation , p. 43. l. 1. f. natural church r. national . finis . postscript , containing several arguments ( to disprove pedo-baptism , and to prove believers only the subjects thereof : ) for mr. gyles shute to answer . friend , if you will not desist but write again , you are desired to answer these arguments , the stress of the controversy lying in them . arg. 1. if none are to be baptized by the authority of the great commission of our blessed saviour , matth. 28. but such who are first made disciples by being taught ; than infants , who are not capable to be taught , ought not to be baptized . but none a●e to be baptized by the authority of the great commission of our blessed saviour , but such who are first made disciples by teaching . ergo , little babes ought not to be baptized . arg. 2. if infant-baptism was never instituted , commanded , or appointed of god , infants ought not to be baptized . but infant-baptism was never instituted , commanded , or appointed of god. ergo , they ought not to be baptized . as to the major ; if one thing may be practised as an ordinance without an institution or command of god , another thing may also ; so any innovation may be let into the church . as to the minor ; if there is an institution for it , &c. 't is either contained in the great commission , matth. 28. mark 16. or somewhere else . but 't is not to be found in the commission , nor any where else . ergo. the major none will deny . the minor i prove thus . none are to be baptized by virtue of the commission , but such who are discipled by the word , as i said before , and so the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies . if any should say , christ commanded his disciples to baptize all nations , and infants are part of nations , therefore are to be baptized . i answer ; arg. 3. if all nations , or any in the nations ought to be baptized before discipled ; then turks , pagans , unbelievers and their children may be baptized , because they are a great part of the nations . but turks , pagans and unbelievers , and their children , ought not to be baptized . ergo. besides that , teaching ( by the authority of the commission ) must go before baptizing , we have proved ; which generally al● learned men do assert : if the institution is to be found any where else , they must shew the place . arg. 4. faith and repentance are required of all that ought to be baptized . infants are not required to believe and repent , nor are they capable so to do . ergo , infants ought not to be baptized . the major is clear , acts 2 , 8 , 10 , 16 chapters ; and 't is also asserted by the church of england . what is required of persons to be baptized ? that 's the question . the answer is , repentance , whereby they forsake sin , and faith , whereby they stedfastly believe the promise of god made to them in that sacrament . the minor cannot be denied . arg. 5. that practice that tends not to the glory of god , nor to the profit of the child , when done , nor in after-times when grown up , but may prove hurtful and of a dangerous nature to him , ca●●c● be a truth of god. but the practice of infant-baptism tends not to the glory of god ▪ nor to the profit of the child when baptized , nor in after-times when grown up , but may prove hurtful and of a dangerous nature to him . ergo. see levit. 10. 1 , 2. where moses told aaron , because his sons had done that which god commanded them not , that god would be sanctified 〈◊〉 all that drew 〈◊〉 unto him ; intimating , that such who did that which god commanded not , did not sanctify or glorify god therein . can god be glorified by man's disobedience , or by adding to his word ; by doing that which god hath not required ? matth. 16. 9. in vain do you worship me , teaching for doctrine the commandments of men : and that that practice doth profit the child , none can prove from god's word : and in after-times when grown up , it may cause the person to think he was thereby made a christian , &c. and brought into the covenant of grace , and had it sealed to him , nay , thereby regenerated , and that infants are thereby ingrafted also into christ's church . sure all understanding men know baptism of believers is not called regeneration , but only metonymically , it being a figure of regeneration . but they ignorantly affirm also , that infants then have a federal holiness ; as if this imagined holiness comes in by the child's covenant in baptism , which may prove hurtful and dangerous to them , and cause them to think baptism confers grace , which is a great error . how can water , saith mr. charnock , an external thing , work upon the soul physically ? nor can it , saith he , be proved , that ever the spirit of god is tied by any promise , to apply himself to the soul in a gracious operation , when water is applied to the body : if it were so , then all that were baptized were regenerated , then all that were baptized should be saved , or else the doctrine of perseverance falls to the ground . some indeed , says he , say , that regeration is conferred in baptism upon the elect , and exerts it self afterwards in conversion . but how so active a principle as a spiritual life should lie dead and asleep so many years , &c. is not easily conceived . on regen . p. 75. arg. 6. if the church of england says , that faith and repentance are required of all that ought to be baptized , and in so saying , speak truly , and yet infants can't perform those things ; then infants ought not to be baptized . but the church of england says , that faith and repentance are required of all such , &c. and speak truly , and yet infants cannot perform these things . ergo , infants ought not to be baptized . object . if it be objected , that they affirm they do perform it by their sureties . answ. if suretiship for children in baptism is not required of god , and the sureties do not , cannot perform those things for the child : then suretiship is not of god , and so signifies nothing , but is an unlawful and sinful undertaking . but suretiship in childrens baptism is not required of god , and they do not , cannot perform what they promise . ergo. do they , or can they cause the child to sorsake the devil and all his works , the pomps and vanities of this wicked world ; and all the sinful lusts of the flesh ? in a word ; can they make the child or children to repent and truly believe in jesus christ ? for these are the things they promise for them , and in their name . alas , they want power to do it for themselves , and how then should they do it for others ? besides , we see they never mind nor regard their covenant in the case : and will not god one day say , who has required these things at your hands ? arg. 7. if there be no precedent in the scripture , ( as there is no precept ) that any infant was baptized , then infants ought not to be baptized . but there is no precedent that any infant was baptized in the scripture . ergo. if there is any precedent or example in scripture that any infant was baptized , let them shew us where we may find it . erasmus saith , 't is no where expressed in the apostolical writings , that they baptized children . union of the church , and on rom. 6. calvin saith , it is no where expressed by the evangelists , that any one infant was baptized by the apostles . iustit . c. 16. book 4. ludovicus vives saith , none of old were wont to be baptized but in grown age , and who desired and understood what it was . vide ludov. the magdeburgenses say , that concerning the baptizing the adult , both jews and gentiles , we have sufficient proof from acts 2 , 8 , 10 , 16 chapters ; but as to the baptizing of infants , they can meet with no example in scripture . magdeb. cent. l. 2. p. 469. dr. taylor saith , it is against the perpetual analogy of christ's doctrine to baptize infants : for besides that christ never gave any precept to baptize them , nor ever himself nor his apostles ( that appears ) did baptize any of them : all that either he or his apostles said concerning it , requires such previous dispositions of baptism , of which infants are not capable , viz. faith and repentance . lib. proph. p. 239. arg. 8. if whatsoever which is necessary to faith and practice is left in the holy scripture , that being a compleat and perfect rule , and yet infant-baptism is not contained or to be found therein , then infant-baptism is not of god. but whatever is necessary to faith and practice , is contained in the holy scriptures , &c. but infant-baptism is not to be found therein . ergo. that the scripture is a perfect rule , &c. we have the consent of all the ancient fathers and modern divines . athanasius saith , the holy scriptures being inspirations of god , are sufficient to all instructions of truth . athan. against the gentiles . chrysostom saith , all things be plain and clear in the scripture ; and whatsoever are needful , are manifest there . chrysost. on 2 thess. and 2 tim. 2. basil saith , that 〈…〉 ould be an argument of infidelity , and a most certain sign of pride , if any man should reject any thing written , and should introduce things not written . basil in his sermon de fide. augustine saith , in the scriptures are found all things which contain faith , manner of living , hope , love , &c. let us , saith he , seek no farther than what is written of god our saviour , lest a man would know more than the scriptures witness . arg. in his 198 epistles to fortunat. theophilact saith , it is part of a diabolical spirit , to think any thing divine , without the authority of the holy scripture . lib. 2. paschal . isychius saith , let us who will have any thing observed of god , search no more but that which the gospel doth give unto us . lib. 5. c. 16. on levit. bellarmin saith , that though the arguments of the anabaptists , from the defect of command or example , have a great use against the lutherans , forasmuch as they use that rite every where , having no command or ●xample , theirs is to be re●ected ; yet is it of no force against catholicks , who conclude the apostolical tradition is of no less authority with us than the scripture , &c. this of baptizing of infants is an apostolical tradition . bellarm. in his book de bapt. 1 1. c. 8. mr. ball saith , we must for every ordinance look to the institution , and never stretch it wider , nor draw it narrower than the lord hath made it , for he is the institutor of the sacraments according to his own pleasure ; and 't is our part to learn of him , both to whom , how , and for what end the sacraments are to be administred . ball , in his answer to the new-england e●●ns , p. 38 , 39. and as to the minor , 't is acknowledged by our adversaries , it is not to be found in the letter of the scripture . and as to the consequences drawn therefrom , we have proved , they are not natural from the premises ; and though we ad●●●● of consequences and inferences if genuine , yet no● in the case of an institution respecting a practical ordinance that is of meer positive right . arg. 9. if infant-baptism was an institution of christ , the pedo-baptists could not be at a loss about the grounds of the right infants have to baptism : but the pedo-baptists are at a great loss , and differ exceedingly about the grounds of the right infants have to baptism . ergo , 't is no institution of christ. as touching the major , i argue thus ; that which is an institution of christ , the holy scripture doth shew , as well the end and ground of the ordinance , ●s the subject and manner of it . but the scripture speaks nothing of the end or ground of pedo-baptism , or for what reason they ought to be baptized . ergo , 't is no institution of christ. the minor is undeniable , some affirm , as we have shewed , p. 15. it was to take away original sin. some say it is their right by the covenant , they being the seed of believers . others say , infants have faith , and therefore have a right . others say , they have a right by the faith of their sureties . some ground their right from an apostolical tradition ; others upon the authority of scripture . some say , all children of professed christians ought to be baptized ; others say , none but the children of true believers have a right to it . sure , if it was an ordinance of christ , his word would soon end this controversy . arg. 10. if the children of believing gentiles , as such , are not the natural nor spiritual seed of abraham , they can have no right to baptism , or church-membership , by virtue of any covenant-transaction god made with abraham . but the children of believing gentiles , as such , are not the natural nor spiritual seed of abraham . ergo. arg. 11. if no man can prove from scripture , that any spiritual benefit redounds to infants in their baptism , 't is no ordinance of christ. but no man can prove from scripture , that any spiritual benefit redounds to infants in their baptism . ergo. arg. 12. that cannot be an ordinance of christ , for which there is neither command nor example in all god's word , nor promise to such who do it , nor threatnings to such who neglect it . but there is no command or example in all the word of god for the baptizing of little babes , nor promise made to such who are baptized , nor threatnings to such who are not . ergo. that the child lies under a promise who is baptized , or the child under any threatning or danger that is not baptized , let them prove it , since it is denied . arg. 13. if no parents , at any time or times , have been by god the father , jesus christ , or his apostles , either commended for baptizing of their children , or reproved for neglecting to baptize them ; then infant-baptism is no ordinance of god. but no parents at any time or times have been by god commended for baptizing of their children , &c. ergo , infant-baptism is no ordinance of god. this argument will stand unanswerable , unless any can shew who they were that were ever commended for baptizing their children , or reproved for neglecting it , or unless they can shew a parallel case . arg. 14. if men were not to presume to alter any thing in the worship of god under the law , neither to add thereto , nor diminish therefrom , and god is as strict and jealous of his worship under the gospel ; then nothing ought to be altered in god's worship under the gospel . but under the law men were not to presume so to do , and god is as strict and jealous under the gospel . ergo. the major cannot be denied . the minor is clear ; see thou make all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the mount , exod. 25. 40. and levit. 10. 1 , 2. see how nadab and abihu sped , for presuming to vary from the command of god , and uzzah , tho but in small circumstances as they may seem to us . how dare men adventure , this being so , to change baptism from dipping into sprinkling , and the subject , from an adult believer , to an ignorant babe ? add thou not into his word , &c. arg. 15. whatever practice opens a door to any humane traditions and innovations in god's worship , is a great evil , and to be avoided : but the practice of infant-baptism opens a door to any humane traditions and innovations in god's worship . ergo , to sprinkle or baptize infants is a great evil , and to be avoided . the major will not be denied . the minor is clear , because there is no scripture-ground for it , no command nor example for such a practice in god's word . and if without scripture-authority the church hath power to do one thing , she may do another , and so ad infinitum . arg. 16. whatsoever practice reflects upon the honour , wisdom and care of jesus christ , or renders him less faithful than moses , and the new testament in one of its great ordinances , ( nay , sacraments ) to lie more obscure in god's word , than any law or precept under the old testament , cannot be of god. but the practice of infant-baptism reflects on the honour , care and faithfulness of jesus christ , and renders him less faithful than moses , and a great ordinance , ( nay , sacrament ) of the new testament , to lie more dark and obscure than any precept under the old testament . ergo , infant-baptism cannot be of god. the major cannot be denied . the minor is easily proved : for he is bold indeed who shall affirm infant-baptism doth not lie obscure in god's word . one great party who assert it , say , 't is not to be found in the scripture at all , but 't is an unwritten apostolical tradition : others say , it lies not in the letter of the scripture , but may be proved by consequences ; and yet some great asserters of it , as dr. hammond and others , say , those consequences commonly drawn from divers texts for it , are without demonstration , and so prove nothing . i am sure a man may read the scripture a hundred times over , and never be thereby convinced ; he ought to baptize his children , tho it is powerful to convince men of all other duties . now can this be a truth , since christ who was more faithful than moses , and delivered every thing plainly from the father ? moses left nothing dark as to matter of duty , tho the precepts and external rites of his law were numerous , two or three hundred precepts , yet none were at a loss , or had need to say , is this a truth or an ordinance , or not ? for he that runs may read it . and shall one positive precept given forth by christ , who appointed so few in the new testament , be so obscure , as also the ground and end of it , that men should be confounded about the proofs of it , together with the end and ground thereof ? see heb. 3. 5 , 6. arg. 17. that custom or law which moses never delivered to the jews , nor is any where written in the old testament , was no truth of god , nor of divine authority . but that custom or law to baptize proselytes either men , women or children , was never given to the jews by moses , nor is it any where written in the old testament . ergo , it was no truth of god , nor of divine authority : and evident it is , as sir norton knatchbul shews , that the jewish rabbi●s differed among themselves also about it : for , saith he , rabbi eli●zer expresly contradicts rabbi joshua , who ▪ was the first i know of who asserted this sort of baptism among the jews : for eli●zer , who was contemporary with rabbi joshua , if he did not live before him , asserts , that a proselyte circumcised and not baptized , was a true proselyte . arg. 18. if baptism is of mere positive right , wholly depending on the will and sovereign pleasure of jesus christ , the great legislator : and he hath not required or commanded infants to be baptized : then infants ought not to be baptized : but baptism is of mere positive right , wholly depending on the will and sovereign pleasure of jesus christ , the great legislator , and he hath not required or commanded infants to be baptized . ergo , infants ought not to be baptized . this argument tends to cut off all the pretended proofs of pedo-baptism , taken from the covenant made with abraham ; and because children are said to belong to the kingdom of heaven , it was not the right of abraham's male children to be circumcised , because they were begotten , and born of the fruit of his loins , till he received commandment from god to circumcise them . had he done it before , or without a command from god , it would have been will-worship in him so to have done . moreover , this further appears to be so , because no godly man's children , nor others in abraham's days , nor since , had any right thereto , but only his children , ( or such who were bought with his money , or were proselyted to the jewish religion ) because they had no command from god so to do , as abraham had . this being true , it follows , that if we should grant infants of believing . gentiles , as such , were the seed of abraham ( which we deny ) yet unless god had commanded them to baptize their children , they ought not to do it ; and if they do it without a command or authority from christ , it will be found an act of will-worship in them . arg. 19. all that were baptized in the apostolical primitive times , were baptized upon the profession of faith , were baptized into christ , and thereby put on christ , and were all one in christ jesus , and were abraham's seed and heirs , according to promise . but infants , as such , who are baptized , were not baptized upon the profession of their faith , nor did they put on christ thereby , nor are they all one in christ jesus , also are not abraham's seed and heirs according to promise . ergo , infants ought not to be baptized . mr. baxter confirms the substance of the major . these are his very words , ● . ● . as many as have been baptized ●iv● put on christ , and are all one in christ jesus ; and are abraham's seed , and heirs ▪ according to the promis● , gal. 3. 27 , 28 , 20. this speaks the apostle , saith he , of the probability grounded on a credible profession , &c. baxter's confirm reconcil . pag. 32. the minor will stand firm till any can prove infants by a visible profession have put on christ , are all one in christ jesus , are abraham's seed and heirs according to promise : evident it is , none are the spiritual seed of abraham , but such who have the faith of abraham , and are truly grafted into christ , by a saving-faith . if any object , we read of some who were baptized , who had no saving-faith , but were hypocrites . i answer ; had they appeared to be such , they had not been baptized , nor had they a true right thereto . arg. 20. baptism is the solemnizing of the souls marriage-union with christ , which marriage-contract absolutely requires an actual profession of consent . infants are not capable to enter into ▪ a marriage-union with christ , no● to make a profession of consent . ergo , infants ought not to be baptized . the major our opposits generally grant , particularly see what mr. baxter saith , our baptism is the solemni●ing of our marriage with christ. these are his words , p. 32. the minor none can deny : no man sure in his right mind , will assert that little babes are capable to enter into a marriage-relation with christ , and to make a profession of a consent : and the truth is , he in the next words gives away his cause , viz. and 't is , saith he , a new and strange kind of marriage , where there is no profession of consent ; p. 32. how unhappy was this man to plead for such a n●w and strange kind of marriage : did he find any little babe he ever baptized ( or rather rantize● ) to make a profession of consent to be married to jesus christ. if any should object , he speaks of the baptism of the adult . i answer , his words are these , ` our baptism is , &c. besides , will any pedo-baptist say , that the baptism of the adult is the solemnizing of the souls marriage with christ , and not the baptism of infants . reader , observe how our opposits are forced sometimes to speak the truth , ●●ough it overthrows their own practice of pedo-baptism . arg. 21. if the sins of no persons are forgiven them till they are converted , then they must not be baptized for the forgiveness of them , till they pro●ess themselves to be converted ; but the sins of no persons are forgiven them till they are converted . ergo , no person ought to be baptized for the forgiveness of them , till they pro●ess they are converted . mr. baxter in the said treatise lays down the substance of this argument also , take his own words , i. e. as their sins are not forgiven them till they are converted , mark 4. 12. so they must not be baptized for the forgiveness of them , till they pro●ess themselves converted , seeing to the church , non esse , and non-appare●● is all one . repentance towards god , and faith towards our lord jesus is the sum of that preaching that makes disciples , acts 20. 21. therefore , saith he , both these must by a profession seem to be received , before any at age are baptized ; p. 30. 31. and evident it is , say i , from hence none but such at age ought to be baptized . philip caused the e●●ugh to profess before he would baptize him , that he believed that jesus christ is the son of god. saul had also , saith he , more than a bare profession before baptism , acts 9. 5 , 15 , 17. p. 28. the promise it self , saith he doth expresly require a faith of our own , of all the adult that will have part in the priviledges : therefore there is a faith of our own , that is the condition of our title ; m●●k 16. 16. p. 16. he might have added by the fo●●● of his argument ; therefore infants should not have the priviledges : for ● argue thus , 〈…〉 arg. 2● . if there is but one baptism of water le●t by jesus christ in the new testament , and but one condition or manner of right thereto ▪ and that one baptism is that of the adult ; then infant-baptism is no baptism of christ. but there is but one baptism , in water lest by christ in the new testament , and but one condition and manner of right thereto , and that one baptism is that of the adult . ergo , infant-baptism is no baptism of christ. mr. baxter saith , faith and repentance is the condition of the adult , and as to any other condition , i am sure the scripture is silent ; the way of the lord is one , one lord , one faith , one baptism , ephes. 4. 4. if profession of faith were not necessary , saith mr. baxter , coram ecclesiâ , to church-membership and priviledges , then infidels and heathens would have right ; also , saith he , the church and the world would be consounded . he might have added , but infidels and heathens have no right to church-membership , &c. ergo , 't is a granted case among all christians , saith he , that profession is thus necessary , the apostles and ancient church admitted none without it ; pag. 2● . and if so , why dare any now a days admit of infants , who are capable to make no profession . he adds , y●● christ in his commission directeth his apostles to make disciples , and t●en baptize them , promising , he that believeth , and is baptized , shall be saved , mark 16. 16. pag. 27. furthermore he saith , i● as many as are baptized into christ , are baptized into his death , and are buried with him by baptism into death ; that like as christ was raised from the dead , so we also , should walk in newness of life , &c. then no doubt , saith he , but such as were to be baptized , did first profess this mortification , and a consent to be buried , &c. i● our baptism we put off the body of the sins of the flesh , by the circumcision of christ , being buried with him , and raised with him through faith , quickned with him , and having all our trespasses forgiven , col. 2. 11 , 12 , 13. and will any man ( says he ) ye● , will paul ascribe all this to those that did not so much as profess the things signified ? will baptism , in the judgment of a wise man , do all this for an infidel , ( or , say i , for an in●●nt ) that cannot make a profession that he is a christian ? pag. 31 , 32. he proceeds . arg. 23. the baptized are in 〈…〉 called men washed , sanctified , justified ▪ they are called saints , and churches of saints , 1 cor. 1 , 2. all christians-are sanctified o●●e● pag. 33. now let me add the minor. but infants baptized are not in scripture called men washed , sanctified , justified , they are not called saints , churches of saints , christians , nor sanctified ones . ergo , infan●s ought not to be baptized . if any should say , why did you not cite these assertions of mr. b●●tn's whilst he was living ? i answer , more then twelve years ago i did recite and print these assertions , and many other arguments of his to the same purpose , ●o which he gave no answer . arg. 24. if there is but ●ne way for all , both parents and children to be ad●i●●●d into the gospel-church to the end of the world , and that it is upon the profession of faith to be baptized ; then both par●●●s and children must upon the profession of their faith be baptized , and so admitted , &c. but there is but one way for all , bo●● pa●e●●● and children , to be admitted into the gospel-church to the end of the world , and that is upon the profession of their faith to be baptized . ergo. arg. 25. that cannot be christ's true baptism wherein there is not , 〈…〉 ●e ● lively representation of the death , burial and resurrection of jesus christ , together with our death 〈◊〉 s●● , and v 〈…〉 tion to a new life . but in the baptizing or sprinkling of an infant , there is not , cannot be a lively . representation of christ's death , burial , and resurrection , &c. ergo. arg. 26. that pretended baptism that tends to 〈…〉 the glorious 〈◊〉 and design of christ in his 〈…〉 of gospel . baptism , or cannot answer it , is none of christ's baptism . but the pretended baptism of infants ●en●● to 〈…〉 the glorious end and design of christ 〈…〉 of gospel baptism ergo. the m●●●● will now 〈…〉 . as to the m 〈…〉 , all generally con●●●● the end or design of christ i● 〈…〉 the ordinance of baptism , was in a lively fig●●e , to repres●●● his death , burial , and resurrection , with the person 's death unto sin , and his rising again to walk in newness of life , that is baptized , as the sacrament of the supper was ordained to represent his body was broke , and his blood was shed . but that a liverly figure of christ's death , burial , and resurrection , appears in sprinkling a little water on the face , i see not ; and as done to an infant , there can no death to sin , and rising again to walk in newness of l●●e , be signified ; and therefore-christ's design and end therein is frustrated . arg. 27. if baptism be immersion , as to the proper and genuine signification of the word baptizo , as also of those typical and metaphorical baptisms and the spiritual signification thereof ; then sprinkling cannot be christ's true baptism . but immersion is the proper and genuine signification of the word baptizo , and also of those typical and metaphorical baptisms spoken of , and the spiritual signification thereof . ergo , sprinkling is not christ's true baptism . 1. that the proper and genuine signification of the word baptizo is immersion , or to ●ip , &c. we have proved , which is also confessed by the learned in that language . 2. the figurative baptism was , 1st . that of the red sea , wherein the fathers were buried , as it were , unto moses in the sea , and under the cloud . pools annotations on 1 cor. 10. 2. others , saith he , more probably think that the apostle useth this term , in regard of the great analogy betwixt baptism ( as it was then used ) the persons going down into the waters , and being dipped in them ; and the israelites going down into the sea , the great receptacle of water , though the water at that time was gathered on heaps on either side of them ; yet they seemed buried in the water , as persons in that age were when they were baptized , &c. the 2d . was that of noah's ark. see sir norton knatchbull : the ark of noah and baptism , saith be , were both a type and figure of the resurrection , not the sign of the washing away of sin , though so taken metonymically , but a particular signal of the resurrection of christ : of this baptism is a lively and emphatical figure , as also was the ark of noah , out of which he returned as from a sepulchre , to a new life . 3. metaphorical baptism is that of the spirit and of affliction : the first signifies not a sprinkling of the spirit , but the great effusion of the spirit , like that at pentecost , acts 1. 4 , 5. shall be baptized , &c. on which words casaubon speaks thus : see dr. duveil on acts 2. the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to dip or plunge , as it were to die colours , in which sense , saith he , the apostles might be truly said to have been baptized : for the house in which this was done , was filled with the holy ghost ; so that the apostles might seem to have been plunged into it as in a large fish-pond . also oecumenius on acts 2. saith , a wind filled the whole house , that it seemed like a fish-pond , because it was promised to the apostles , that they should be baptized with the holy ghost . and the baptism of affliction are those great depths or overwhelmings of afflictions , like that of our saviour's suffering , i. e. no part free ; matth. 20. 22. where you have the same greed word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and like that of david , who saith , god drew him out of great waters . 4. the spiritual signification thereof is the death , burial and resurrection of christ , and of our death to sin , and vivification to a new life . this being so , it follows undeniably sprinkling cannot be christ's true baptism , it must be immersion , and nothing else . and in the last place , finally , to confirm that baptizo is to dip , both from the literal and spiritual signification thereof , as also from those typical and metaphorical baptisms mentioned in the scripture , i might add further , that this evidently appears from the practice of john baptist and the apostles of christ , who baptized in riuers , and where there was much water : and also , because the baptizer and baptized are said to go down into the water , ( not down to the water ) and came up out of the water . john baptist is said to baptize them into jordan , as the greek word renders it , which shews it dipping and not sprinkling . would it be proper to say , he sprinkled them into jordan ▪ the lord open the eyes of those who see not , to consider these things . finis .