A blow at the serpent; or a gentle answer from Madiston prison to appease wrath advancing it self against truth and peace at Rochester. Together with the work of four daies disputes, in the Cathedral of Rochester, in the Countie of Kent, betweene several ministers, and Richard Coppin, preacher there, to whom very many people frequentlie came to hear, and much rejoyced at the way of truth and peace he preached, at the same whereof the ministers in those parts began to ring in their pulpits, saying, this man blasphemeth, ... Whereupon arose the disputes, at which were some magistrates, some officers, and souldiers, peaceable and well-minded, and very many people from all parts adjacent, before whom the truth was confirm'd and maintained. The whole matter written by the hearers, on both sides. Published for the confirmation and comfort of all such as receive the truth in the love of it. By Richard Coppin, now in Maidston Prison for the witness of Jesus. Twenty five articles since brought against him by the ministers, as blasphemie, and his answers to them, how he was

Truths Triumph , OR The Triumphing of TRVTH , OVER The Enemies and Aspersers thereof . In several Disputes holden at the Cathedral Church , of the City of Rochester , in the County of Kent , between several Ministers , and Richard Coppin , on several daies .

DISPUTE . I. Between Walter Rosewell , then a Preacher at Chatham , and Richard Coppin , then Preacher in the Cathedral of Rochester , being on Munday , the third day of December , 1655.

THe people being come together into the Cathedral , Richard Coppin began in prayer , after which , the Mayor of the City , and Captain Smith , Captain of the Guard , desired the people to keep silence , and none to speak but Rosewell and Coppin , if any else did , they should be apprehended , and proceeded against , as Disturbers of the Peace .

Then spake Coppin , saying , I desire also that the people will all keep silent , and none to speak a word , but those who are in dispute : I know you are a people divided some for the one party , and some for the other , and I shall speak to you all . First , to you that are on the contrary party to me , and that have any desire to speak , not to speak above one at a time , and so speak as many as will , provided the one hath done before the other begin . And to you that may have any desire to speak on my behalf , I entreat you all to be silent , and not to speak a word , but to leave all to the Lord and my self .

Rosew .

M. Mayor , I thought none but you , & the rest of the Magistrates and Officers of the Army , should have had the mannaging this Dispute , and I to have began first , that so this mans discourse might have been spared : And as for the plausible prayer he made at my coming in to delude the people , I confesse my Conscience would not give me to joyn with him , not but that the matter thereof was good , but I knowing his Principle to be corrupt , could not say Amen to it : And now , if you please , I shall first make a short Prayer , and then go on to the work , for I cannot undertake a businesse of such weight , for the suppressing of such damnable errors as here hath been vented , without calling upon God for assistance , both to Magistrates , Officers , and Ministers in this work .

CHAP. I. That Christ , who knew no sin , took part of mans flesh and blood which was sinful , weak , and punishable , how in it he was made the same , and for what end . ROsewell .

There be three things which I shall charge you withal at present , the which you should endeavour to clear your self of if you can , and that I shall propound in a Logical way , yet so plain , that that little reason you are endowed withal may understand it ; as for Art , I presume you have none .

Proposition .

First , he that is a perswader of the people to believe that Jesus Christ was a sinner , and that the Humane Nature of Christ was polluted with sin , he is a Blasphemer of Christ , a Perverter of Scripture , and a venter of damnable errors .

Coppin .

Sir , you have here laid down a Proposition , the affirmation of which you say is Blasphemy , and he a Blasphemer that shall perswade men to believe it : But Sir , who do you charge with it , me , or some other , or did any man else ever hear me say these words , if any did , let him speak , and I will answer it , for there is no reason for me to answer to that which is not laid to my charge , and I came not here to charge my self , but do now expect something of accusation from you , else why have you , and the rest of your Brethren , so often railed against me in your Pulpits ?

Rosewell .

I desire the Souldiers and Magistrates to declare if I have any reason to speak any further , till this Proposition be answered .

Coppin .

Do you charge me with any thing in this Proposition , or not ? if you do , I will answer you , else I may say to you , as Christ my Elder Brother sometimes said to his Accusers , Ye said these words , I said them not .

Rosewell .

Oh horrible Blasphemy , to call Christ your Elder Brother ! I professe I dare not say so ; no , you will find him to be your Judge at the last day , to condemn you for your Blasphemy .

Coppin .

He is your Elder Brother also , though you do not know him : But Sir , I perceive you for your part have yet nothing against me , and therefore you urge these things , endeavouring to draw somthing from my own mouth to accuse me , which is not a Disputing in love ( on your part , to edifie the people , as you pretended ) but to charge me with Blasphemy , as the Jewes , and Scribes , and Pharisees did Christ , which you cannot prove : Yet to give the people satisfaction , I shall not hide any thing from them , but shall be free to declare such things that God hath made known to me , that so he might be glorified , and their souls comforted , which I shall also do according to the Scriptures , and then catch what you can .

Therefore first I declare , that the Lord Jesus Christ , the Son of the living God , and Saviour of the World , ( that proceeded forth from the Father into the world , to take on him part of the same flesh and bloud of men , and to live in it ) was himself , holy , harmlesse , and undefiled , in whose mouth was found no guile ; as saith the Scripture ; yet this Lord Jesus , and Son of the living God , who was so holy and harmlesse , was himselfe pleased to take mans sinful nature ( so called ) to live in it , and cleanse it ; he was made in the likenesse of sinful flesh , and for sin , he condemned sin in the flesh , as also saith the Scripture , nay , he was in all things made like unto his Brethren , sin known and ( committed ) excepted , that as we had in us the knowledge and actings of sin , so God made him to be sin for us , who himself knew no sin , that we might be made the righteousnesse of God in him .

Rosewell .

Though you say he committed none , yet you do here intimate that Christs nature was tainted with original sin , which I prove to be blasphemy , for now I have it from your own mouth ; indeed , he was made a Sin Offering for sin , the Scripture saith . But Mr. Mayor , and Captain Smith , you may plainlie see how his argument is corrupted , which will go about to make men believe that Christ was a sinner , and that his nature was tainted with original sin .

Coppin .

'T is you that say so , & not I , as the people canwitnefs .

Head the Lawer . But you have said it , and I have it here in writing .

Coppin .

Have you so Sir , pray let me hear what you have written , for now I see you still lie upon the catch , therefore you people pray take notice , and I will repeat the words again , and see if I speak any thing that the Scripture will not bear me out in .

I say the Lord Jesus Christ , the Son of the living God , and Saviour of the world , knew no sin , neither was guile found in his mouth ; yet was all the sins of all men in the world laid upon him , and reckoned to him , to be no longer ours , but his , that he might suffer for them .

Robison

a Justice . Will you say that Christ suffered for his own sins ?

Coppin .

Not as acted by him , but reckoned to him : But Sir , pray answer me this question , seeing you have spoke , Is the body of Christ part of himself , or not ?

Robison .

Yes , his bodie is himself .

Coppin .

Pray then whose body are all the men in the world which Christ died for ?

Robison .

Whose , why they are the bodie of Christ .

Coppin .

Then people take no●ice , if the whole world of men which Christ died for , be the bodie of Christ , then Christ dying for their sins , died for the sins of his own bodie , whose bodie we all are , and members in particular , as 't is written , We are members of his bodie , of his flesh , and of his bones ; and so Christ in his bodie of flesh , as part of ours , did bear our sins and infirmities , 1 Pet. 2. 24. whose his own self did bear our sins in his own bodie on the Tree ; and in Mat. 8. 16. himselfe took our infirmities , and bear our sicknesses , and Isa 53. 3. 4. 5. He is despised and rejected of men , a man of sorrows , and acquainted with grief ; and we hid as it were our faces from him , he was despised , and we esteemed him not : Surely he hath borne our griefs , and carried our sorrows , yet we did esteem him stricken , smitten of God , and afflicted : He was wounded for our transgressions , he was bruised for our iniquities , and the chastisements of our peace was upon him : We all like sheep have gone astray , and the Lord hath laid upon him the iniquities of us all . So that whatsoever sins , whatsoever sicknesses , weaknesses , infirmities and punishments was in the flesh of men , Christ taking the same flesh and bloud of men upon him , took all this , that so he might overcome it for men , according to those Scriptures .

Rosewell .

You pervert Scripture , for the meaning is , he took our punishments , and not our sins .

Coppin .

Nay , then you pervert Scripture , for the words are , He bear our sins .

Rosewell .

Mr. Mayor , and the rest , you may see with what a Brazen-face this Blasphemer stands to maintain his damnable errors .

Coppin .

And 't is well I have such a face , and such patience , else it were not for me to stand here before you , to hear such railing and reviling , which you never learned from Christ ; for when he Disputed with the Devil about the bodie of Moses , he brought no railing Accusation , but said , The Lord rebuke thee .

Rosewell .

Then the Lord rebuke thee Satan : But you must not think to shift it off so , for you have perverted Scripture , and you must give satisfaction in it .

Coppin .

Sir , what do you mean by satisfaction ? It may be if I stand here till to morrow you will not be satisfied , but my desire is to satisfie the people , and you , if I may .

Rosewell .

You are before a juditions Auditorie , which may well understand you .

Coppin .

It is well you do now confesse they are a juditious Auditorie , you did say the other day to the contrarie .

Rosewell .

You do not answer any thing to this Proposition , but do pervert the Scripture , by saying the nature of Christ was polluted with sin .

Coppin .

I do not say , that his nature was polluted with sin , but that our nature was polluted , till Christ was manifest in it , to destroy the pollutions of it , as 't is written , For this purpose was the Son of God manifest , that he might destroy the works of the Devil : And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all ; and he did bear them in his own bodie on the Tree .

Rosewell .

I say again , he that doth teach people to believe that Jesus Christ was a sinner , and that his nature was polluted with sin , is a Blafphemer of Christ , and a venter of damnable errors , but you do teach people to believe so ; ergo .

Coppin .

I still denie your minor , and did never say that Christ was a sinner , as all the people can witnesse ; but I say , He was made sin for us , and yet knew no sin , but did bear our sins in his bodie .

Rosewell .

He that doth attribute any thing to Christ that is a dishonor to Christ , he is a perverter of Scripture , and a Blasphemer of Christ ; but you , by saying the nature of Christ was polluted with sin , have d●ne so : ergo .

Coppin .

I have denied your minor , which you cannot prove , and do des●re you to declare what nature of man it was the Scripture saith Christ did take on him , Was it a holy nature , or a sinful nature ?

Rosewell .

The nature of man , when Christ did come to take it on him was polluted , but that part which Christ did take on him was holie , for it was the nature of a Virgin , Luke 1. 35. The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee , and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee , therefore that holy thing which shall be born of thee , shall be called the Son of God . He did take mans nature on him , but not his sins , and this I declare , and am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ .

Coppin .

The nature of the Virgin Mary , which you say was holy before Christ took it on him , I say was the same with all other mens nature for sinfulnesse , for all had sinned , and Christ took on him the sinful nature of all which sinned , before he could undergo the punishment due for sin , as I have proved by several Scriptures and Arguments in answer to this Proposition , and therefore if you , or any man else , have any thing more to say , speak now , or else ever hereafter behind my back hold your peace .

CHAP. II. That all men shall be saved , of Redemption out of Hell , and in what sense a mans good works doth him no good , and his bad works no hurt . ROsewell .

He that doth perswade people to believe that all men shall be saved , he is a perverter of Scripture , a Blasphemer of Christ , and a venter of damnable errors ; but you do so : ergo .

Coppin .

I denie your major Proposition , as to the Blasphemy , therefore prove it .

Rosewell .

By the way , take notice , he doth go about to maintain that all men shall be saved .

Coppin .

I do not yet tell you what I maintain , but I put you to prove-that part of your major Proposition .

Rosewell .

He that perswades people to believe that which the Scripture doth flatlie contradict , he is a perverter of Scripture ; and a Blasphemer of Christ ; but this , that all men shall be saved , is flatlie contradicted by Scripture , Mark 16. He that believes shall be saved , but he that believeth not shall be damned .

Coppin .

I shall answer your Proposition by another , whatsoever is the will of God , is not Blasphemy to affirm , but the will of God is the Salvation of all men , therefore to say that all men shall be saved , is not Blasphemy ; and I prove it in the first of Tim. 2. 3. I will , saith God , that all men shall be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth . And it will be necessarie for you to declare what this Salvation and Damnation is , which you speak of also , when it is , and whete it is , for I acknowledge that he that believes shall be saved , and he that believes not , is condemned alreadie .

Rosewell .

This damnation is that of the soul , when it is separated from the bodie : Secondly , when Christ shall come generallie at the last day , when the whole world of Reprobates shall be cast into that lake of fire , which doth burn with brimstone , out of which there is no Redemption .

Coppin .

Pray prove that from thence there is no Redemption .

Rosewell .

Mat 25. The blessed shall go into everlasting life , and the wicked into everlasting fire , prepared for the Devil and his Angels .

Coppin .

I do also say , that the righteous shall have everlasting life , and the wicked shall have everlasting torment , but that doth not prove that there is no Salvation or Redemption out of hell , for the word everlasting , doth signifie for the time during , such a dispensation or administration of God to man ; therefore if you have any Scripture to prove that there is no Redemption out of hell , as you have often made the people believe there is not , produce it now , or else friends never believe him , nor any of your Teachers more when they tell you so , except they can prove it by Scripture : And trulie Sir , I had thought you had been a man better learned in Scripture , then you are , and seeing you cannot bring any proof for what you have said , I shall go on , and prove by Scripture , that from that hell ( the Scripture makes mention of ) there is Redemption .

Rosewell .

You do bring Scripture but to little purpose , only to glose your errors .

Coppin .

David saith , Thou hast not left my soul in hell , neithor wilt thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption ; which shews , that there is a coming out from thence : And in Amos 9. 2. Though they dig down into hell , thence shall my hand take them , though they clime up to heaven , thence will I bring them down : So that the Lord will have men to come in his way , and not their own , they shall come to heaven , but through hell .

Captain Smith .

Mr. Coppin , pray prove how the word everlasting shall have an end , before you go any further .

Coppin .

I shall do it from the 17. of Gen. where God saith to Abrabam , I will make with thee an everlasting Covenant , and saith God , this is the Covenant I will make with thee , Every male shall be circumcised : And this Covenant upon these conditions did last but for a time , for we read , that God did afterwards make a new Covenant with us , that should never be ended . So in like manner the Priesthood of Aaron and ●is Sons was call'd an everlasting Priesthood , and yet that had a● end , and was changed into the Priesthood of Christ , that abideth for ever and ever , and we are said to be changed from one everlasting to another everlasting , which shews there are more everlastings then one , so that one everlasting is but the time during , of the same dispensation , under which we are for a time , until our change comes .

Rosewell .

We do speak concerning continuance in the place of torment and hell , in Scripture it hath several acceptations , the place you brought in Amos , I did intend to charge you with it for perverting it , for it is meant , that though he do clime never so high from God , he will bring them down , and dig never so deep to hide themselves , yet God will finde them out , and at the day of Judgement cast both body and soul of Reprobates into hell to be tormented ; but Mr. Mayor , and the rest , may see your prastise is to pervert Scripture .

Coppin .

I conceive also that the place in Amos , of climing up to heaven , and digging down to hell , is meant , that whatsoever any man of himself can do , to save himself , or to bring himself to heaven , will not bring him thither , neither save him , but God will pull him down with all his works , and make them unprofitable to him ; for he that goes any other way then by Christ , the door of life , he is a Thief and a Robber : Also whatsoever any man can do against himself to carry him to hell , shall not continue him there , but God will fetch him back again , and destroy all those wicked works that he hath done against his own salvation , according to that Scripture , Oh man thou hast destroyed thy self , but in me is thy help : So that destruction is to man for the time present here , while man is unacquainted with God .

Rosewell .

You say no good any man can do can help him , or do him any good , nor no evil he can do , can do him hurt ; this openeth a gap to all manner of wickedness , so that he may be as well in the bosome of a Harlot , as in holy duties towards God ; but the contrary I do affirme , that good deeds do good to men in life and death , and after death it is said , man doth rest from his labours , and his works do follow him .

Coppin .

Man doth rest from his labour , and his works doth follow him , when he doth rest in Christ from the works of the Law , and is become dead to them : But Sir , I believe you have forgot that Scripture , who when ye have done all that you can , ye are unprofitable servants ; & therefore I say , that all that man can do for or against himself , cannot further nor hinder his salvation by Christ , for Christ will have nothing to joyn with him to save a man , neither shall any thing be able to keep us from him , but though for a time man hath destroyed himself , yet in God is his help ; and this doth not thereby give any toleration to sin , for though their good works brings them not to heaven , yet they are profitable unto men as they are , and their bad works unprofitable ; but the love of God in Christ Jesus manifested to them , keeps and constrains them from that which is evil .

Rosewell .

I am glad this Auditorie doth see sufficiently the carriage of this man in this thing , you may take notice he hath been before five several Judges of Assizes already .

Coppin .

Then I have been like to my Elder Brother Jesus Christ , who said , that as he was , so should we be brought before Judges and Rulers for his Names sake , and yet I shall , while I may , still continue in speaking and writing , to testifie to the world what the Lord for their sakes hath made known in me for truth .

Rosewell .

Those things you call truths of God , are nothing else but the lies of the devil , and if Mr. Mayor , and the rest think fit , I shall proceed no further , but conclude , for I could imploy my time far better in my Study ; and I shall meet with you in my Catechisical Exercises , which I intend to begin next Saturday , and Mr. Mayor , and the rest , and Souldiers , I shall present to you several Catechismes to keep you from those damnable errors .

Coppin .

Have you been a Teacher of your people so long , and now do you begin to Catechize them , it seems your design is to keep them still in ignorance , to have them alwayes learning , but never come to the knowledge of the truth ; and truly you that have been his hearers all this while , it hath been to little purpose , that now you must turn back to be Catechized at last . Well Sir , if you have any more , go on .

Rosewell .

Yes , I have many things against you , but time will be but lost here to discover them with you , yet take one thing more .

CHAP. III. Christ at the left hand of God , bearing sin , shun the curse and condemnation for all men , what the right and left hand is , also the Sheep and the Goats , that the way to the right hand is by the left , and how . ROsewell .

He that will perswade the people to believe that Jesus Christ is a sinful Goat , to whom God will say , Go ye cursed , he is a perverter of Scripture , a venter of damnable errors , but you do ; ergo

Coppin .

Let me ask you one question , the Goats that are spoken of , Are they believers ? Or are they unbelievers ? Or are they part of both ?

Rosewell .

The Goats on the left hand are unbelievers , and the Sheep on the right hand Believers .

Coppin .

It is also necessarie for you to shew , what is to be understood by the right and left hand of God , and then we shall know the better how the Sheep and Goats are there , and when , for in this there is an Allegorie , which if you know not , I will tell you .

Captain Smith .

Mr. Coppin , It is referred to you , to declare your judgment upon it .

Coppin .

I will : There is mention made of a right and left hand of God in Scripture , the sheep and the goats , Believers and Unbelievers , they on the right hand are the sheep blessed , and they on the left hand are the goats cursed ; but to understand this , the left hand of God where the Goats are cursed , is the Law , and the right hand of God where the Sheep are blessed , is the Gospel ; the left hand of God is also his wrath , and the right hand is his love , and he saith to those on the left hand , as under wrath , manifested by the Law , Go ye cursed , for ye believe not , and are damned ; and he saith to those on his right hand , as under love , Joy and peace manifested by the Gospel , come ye blessed , for you believe , and are saved .

Now all men for a time , before they believe and are regenerated , are at the left hand of God under the Law cursed , For he that breaks but one Commandment is guilty of all , and all have sinned ; and God hath concluded all men undersin , and unbelief , that he might have mercie upon all : Now all men being so under the curse , and under the Law , at the left hand of God , cannot be said to come from thence to the right hand , to receive the blessing and mercie , but by his stretching forth his right hand to take them from his left , as 't is written , All the day long have I stretched forth my arm to a disobedient , rebellious , and gainsaying people . Now what is this Arm of God , but the Lord Jesus Christ , freelie and in love held forth by the Father to the worst of sinners , and that would not receive him , For he came to his own , and his own received him not ; therefore saith the Prophet Isaiah , Who hath believed our report ? and to whom is the Arm of the Lord revealed ? even to sinners , and them that were out of the way , to them is Jesus Christ manifested for the knowledge of those things .

And according to this did Jesus Christ come and put himself under the Law , and under the curse , at the left hand of God , to receive the wrath and the curse due to us , and all this he did for us , to bring us to the right hand of God , that we might receive the forgivenesse of sins through him and so be blessed for evermore in him , for whatsoever we were , Christ made himself the same , and all to redeem poor man from the curse he lay under : Was man under the Law ? so was Christ : Was man accursed for sin ? so was Christ : In Leviticus 16. 21. you may read there of a Scape Goat , on which Aaron laid both his hands , and confest over him all the sins of the people , and all their transgressions , laying them on the head of the live Goat , and the Goat was to carrie them away into the Wildernesse , into a Land not inhabited , from whence they should appear no more .

Now this live Goat was a livelie tipe of Jesus Christ , who was to carrie away our sins , and was he indeed under that tipe that did carrie the sins of all the people , as in Isa. 53. 6. We all like sheep have gone astray , and the Lord hath laid upon him the iniquities of us all ; and he hath carried them away into the Wildernesse and lost them , buried them in the grave , cast them behind him , drowned them in the Sea of forgetfulnesse , never to be remembred any more : So that all people were cursed , and at the left hand of God bearing their own sins , till Jesus Christ did go there himself to redeem them from thence , by taking the curse on him , and bearing their sins for them , and so sets them at libertie from under the curse and wrath due by the Law , he being both God and man fitted for the purpose , having power to lay down his life , and to take it up again : And this Commandment he received from his Father , to do for us : Now he that must take on him the sins of the people , must take the curse on him also , therefore was Christ accursed for us , Gal. 3. 13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law , by being made a curse for us , as it is written , Cursed is every one that hangeth on a Tree , but Christ his own self did bear our sins in his bodie on the Tree .

And friends , I call you all friends , though enemies , and brethren , though strangers , for I hate no man , but do love all , as Christ my Elder Brother hath given me Commandment , and shewed me an example that I should follow his steps : I say there is no believer now , but once he was an unbeliever , and there is no sheep now , but once he was a Goat at Gods left hand , and under the curse , till Jesus Christ the blessed Redeemer freed you from it , and blessed you by it , at his Fathers right hand : Now while man is an unbeliever , the Scripture saith he is condemned , He that believeth not is condemned already : so that the best of us all are in a prison , in the state of condemnation , and in hell under the curse , one as well as another , till Christ the Lord Jesus doth free us from it , by breaking open the prison doors , and puting himself into this prison , hell , and condemnation with us , standing there in our steeds , to receive that curse and condemnation which by the law is due to us without him , and so deliver us and himselfe together as one man , according to those Scriptures , he was himselfe taken from prison , and from judgment , he was given for a Covenant of the people , and for a light to the Gentiles , to open the blind eyes , to bring out the prisoners from the prison , and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house , that they might be where he is , all comes out with him , he leaves not one behinde , but delivers himself and them together , and then shuts up the doors , and locks in the divell , and so keeps the keyes of death , and of hell , saying , Feare not .

Roswell .

Christ was never in hell .

Coppin .

Sir , will you denie your own Faith , which you have so often confessed in your Creed , that he descended into hell .

Robison .

What do Christ goe into hell to turne us out before him , and then come out himselfe .

Coppin .

As we are first in hell before we are in Heaven , so he comes into hell to us , and with himselfe brings us out , and carries us to Heaven , according to those Scriptures , He hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus , and together with my dead body shall they arise ; and I ( saith he ) if I be lifted up , will draw all men unto me . But take this with you also , as a bone to pick against the next time , that as you are unbelievers before you are believers , so are you to be damned before you are saved , and in hell before you are in Heaven , for the way to Heaven is through hell : He that hath an eare to heare let him heare .

DISPUTE . II. The Heads of a Dispute between Daniel French , Minister of Stroud , and Richard Coppin , on the nineth of December , being the Sabbath Day , after Morning Sermon , in the Cathedral of the City of Rochester .

Mr. Coppin coming into the place to Preach his Morning Sermon , and Mr. French having left his own Congregation , and being there , did before Sermon propound to Mr. Coppin a question , as follows .

FRench .

Sir , on Munday last , in the Dispute with Mr. Rosewell , I did hear somthing from you which did seem very strange to me , and I came now , desiring to be satisfied .

Coppin .

The Truth is alwayes a stranger to those that are strangers to that , and know it not , till the Truth hath made them free , For I was a stranger , saith Christ , and ye took me not in ; and 't is the Truth it self that must satisfie you , and not I.

French .

I desire to speak somthing to the people after you have done .

Coppin .

Truly the time will be but short after I have done , therefore if you have any thing to say to me , you had better take a day to your self some other time , and I shall be willing to give you a meeting , provided it be in love , and for edification to the people .

French .

I professe before the Lord I have no hatred nor prejudice to any mans person , but their opinions .

Coppin .

Then it seems those opinions which are not one with yours , you hate , and judg to be wrong , and your own only to be right ; but I must tell you , I am not of your spirit , for I hate no mans person nor opinion , but am reconciled to all men in their several judgements and opinions , leaving them all to the Lord , knowing that the manifestations of God are various , to some more , and to some lesse , but as every man hath received Jesus Christ the Lord , so let him walk , speak and act , standing still in that light which the Lord hath enlightened him withal , and be content with his wages , till the Lord shall give him more .

French .

'T was never well with us since there were such new lights .

Coppin .

'T is true , that which you call new light , will out-shine your old lights , and yet no new light , but the same that ever was ; so he proceeded to Morning Sermon .

CHAP. IIII. Christ no sinner , mans nature redeemed , what 's meant by the grave , death , hell , and hell fire , how man is in it , and how long . FRench .

Having some opportunity , I shall declare semthing among you , to shew you the errors of this man Mr. Coppin , how he hath abused Jesus Christ , by saying , he took on him our sinful nature , as hath been delivered from his own mouth in the last Dispute and now , which I shall shew to the contrary from severall Scriptures , that there was no sin in him , and endeavour to undeceive you of this error ; first in Heb. 7. 26. For such an High-Priest became us , who is holy , harmlesse , undefiled , separate from sinners , and made higher then the heavens : Here you may see he had no sin ; so in 1 Pet. 1. 19. We are redeemed with the precious Blood of Christ , as of a Lamb without blemish , and without spot ; still you see he was without sin , verse 23. Being born again , not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the Word of God ; therefore there was no sin in the nature of Christ , as appears by these Scriptures , and I think I have given you Scriptures enough now , and yet I have more .

Coppin .

But Sir , let me answer this first , you said you came for satisfaction , and not to preach , therefore pray let me answer ; as to the holinesse of Christ himself , as he is in himselfe the Son and Seed of God , so he is holy and without sin ; but our nature which he was to offer up and make holy , was sinful and unholy before he took it on him , and he by offering it up , ( as taking it to himself ) and by his being slain ( to live in it ) as a Lamb without blemish ; our sinful nature is redeemed from sin to holinesse by Jesus Christ the incorruptible seed living in it , and by which we are redeemed to the same holy Priesthood with him , to be as Lambs without blemish in him .

Captain Harrison .

Mr. French , You may do well to one answer another briefly , or else you have a great advantage one of another , and it will be more advantage to the Hearers .

French .

Whereas Mr. Coppin was pleased the last Dispute , that out of hell there was redemption , and he brought the words of the Prophet David , when he saith , Thou wilt not leave my soule in hell , nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption ; This is not meant hell , but the grave , for hell hath severall acceptations ; sometimes it is taken for the grave ; as in this place , and not of hell ; as you would have it ; another Scripture you brought in Amos the 9. 2. in which I am of my Brother Rosewells opinion , and not yours , for that doth not prove redemption out of hell , but a coming to judgment soule and body at the last day , to receive the sentence of eternall damnation in hell , where the worm never dies , from whence there is no redemption .

Coppin .

Prove that out of hell there is no redemption , your Brother Rosewell could not .

French .

I prove it Matthew 25. These shall goe into everlasting punishment , but the righteous into life eternall .

Coppin .

That proves it not , for they may goe into that which is everlasting punishment , and yet come forth .

French .

I deny it , though you say the word everlasting hath an end , and that Scripture which you brought in Gen. 17. concerning the first Covenant , that it was everlasting , and had an end , when the second came , I deny , for it was all but one Covenant , and everlasting is for ever ; but I am sorry to see so many people here deluded with such errors .

Coppin .

Sir , you say but what your Brother Rosewell have said alreadie , which I then answer'd , and you understand not ; for the first Everlasting Covenant , as to the conditions thereof , which was the work ; of the Law , had an end , as to us , when God made with us a New Covenant , upon better conditions , without end , though to him the first and the last is all one , and where you have the word everlasting , or for ever , go single , there it may somtimes be said to last but for a time , age , or dispensation , but where it is from everlasting to everlasting , and for ever and ever , there it is world without end .

French .

I say there is no end of the punishment in hell for the wicked , where the worm never dies , nor the fire goes out , but the wicked persons of men shall be tormented eternally in the flames , suffering the vengeance of eternal fire .

Coppin .

I denie that men shall be eternallie in it , though the fire it self be as eternal as God , for God himself is this consuming fire , when it meets with that which is to be burnt , and this fire is to try everie mans works , of what sort it is , and he being refined , as having all his sins burnt up within him , by the spirit of burning , he shall come out of the fire of Gods anger , as one purged and made white , yet the fire remains the same still in it self , as in God , and man while in it , is said to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire , as of God , so long as there is any thing of dross , wood , hay , or stubble in man , for the fire to take hold of , till all be consumed ; as the Sea , it is alwaies full of water , and never emptie , and man may go into the water to wash himself , and after come forth , yet the sea remains still the same , as before , as that which man was in , but now is forth , so is this eternal fire , which everie man is to pass through before he is refined , and it were well with you if this fire had laid hold on you , for then you would be the purer , and the sooner come forth .

French .

I do not believe that he that is once in it , shall ever come forth , for out of hell there is no redemption , and 't is horrible blasphemie to say it .

Coppin .

You have no Scripture to prove it , and I see you understand it not , but I prove that David while he lived was shut up in it for somtime , and could not come forth , the wrath of God lay so hard upon him ; as you may read in Psalmes 88. beginning at the 6. verse , Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit , in darknesse , in the deep , thy wrath lieth hard upon me , and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves , thou hast put away mine asquaintance far from me , thou hast made me an ab●mination unto them , I am shut up , and I cannot come forth : This was Davids hell here on earth .

French .

But hell in some places is taken for the grave , and some for hell , and David speaks of the grave .

Coppin .

What do you mean by grave ?

French .

Why , the grave of earth that mens bodies are buried in .

Coppin .

But David was in this grave when he said it , and y 〈…〉 in his bodie on the earth , and not in the grave as you call so , therefore pray let me ask you one question , If hell in some places be taken for the grave , as you say it is ( though hell and grave are but differing terms in Scripture ) pray what is it taken for in Hos 13. 14. where God saith , I will ransome them from the power of the grave , I will redeem them from death : O death I will be thy plagues , O grave I will be thy destruction , repentance shall be hid from mine eyes : Pray tell me what is it meant here .

French .

I am not minded to tell you .

Coppin .

Then 't is because you cannot , therefore I will tell you , by the grave is here meant hell , which God will destroy in redeeming us from it , For , saith he , I will ransome them from the grave , I will redeem them from death ; O death I will be thy plagues , O grave I will be thy destruction : God will destroy that death and hell which destroyed us , which we through fear thereof were all our life time subject to bondage , for they came together , and shall end together , as two companions , Revel. 20. 14. and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire , this is the second death , and the last enemie to be destroyed ; but what this lake of fire and brimstone is , the Prophet Isaiah tells you , Isa. 30. last . Tophet is ordained of old , yea , for the King it is prepared , he hath made it deep and large , the pile thereof is fire and much wood , and the breath of the Lord like a stream of brimstone doth kindle it .

This Tophet is the Lake or Vallie of Slaughter , prepared only for the King , the fire thereof is God himself , our God is a consuming fire , the fuel to be burnt is the devil , death and hell , with all mans works , good and bad , that he hath made his foundation to build upon , besides Christ , whether it be gold or precious stone , wood , hay , or stubble , all shall be burnt up , and he shall suffer losse , but he himself shall be saved , so as by fire , which fire is the Lord , and the stream of brimstone that kindles it , the breath of the Lord , to burn up , consume , blast , and weather whatsoever is not of God in man , but man shall be saved , and so saith the Lord , Furie is not in me , but if the wicked set bryers and thorns against me in battel , I will go through them , and consume them to together ; but this is all the fruit thereof to 〈…〉 e away their sins .

CHAP. V. Christ coming in the Clouds , the place and manner of his Throne , how he as a man , body , flesh , and bones , is not in a place above the Skies , that the Christ of God is no where contained . FRench .

But Christ shall come in flaming fire at the last day , at the end of the world , for he shall descend from heaven in the Clouds , with a shout , with the voice of the Arch-Angel , at the sound of a Trumpet , and he shall sit upon a Throne , and before him shall be gathered all Nations .

Coppin .

All this I know , and see to be now , for now is he upon his Throne , and have all Nations before him , and ever had , though you may not see it till it be manifest in you , therefore you should define what is meant by the Throne , and his siting upon it , and the place where it stands , and the Clouds in which he comes , for all people do believe that there are such things , but you should declare what , and when , and where it is , that people may know it , else how are you a Teacher of the people , if you know not those things .

French .

It is a Throne that shall stand upon the earth , and the clouds are the clouds of heaven above , overhead , in which he shall come , where we shall be caught up to meet him .

Coppin .

But define this Throne , what it is made of , and the manner of it how it stands , else you speak the things you know not , and that which you have not seen , nor heard from the Lord , but from your own imagination , as appeares , for the Scripture saith , His Throne is in heaven ; And how is it then on earth , if heaven be above , overhead , as you say it is ? But I do believe he is come , and coming dailie , and do set up his Throne in the hearts of men , where he is judging and condemning all things that is contrarie to himself , and when you see it to be in you , then you shall acknowledge it also , in the mean time you must be silent .

French .

I do be lieve he shall come from above in the clouds , overhead , with thousands of Angels , as a man in a bodily shape , with flesh , blood , and bones , for Job saith , he shall see him with those eyes stand upon the earth .

Coppin .

And Job in his life time did see him stand upon the earth in him , as he confesseth in his last Chapter , For now do mine eyes see thee , saith Job : And if you do but read Job from the beginning to the end , and understand what you read , you may see of Jobs state and condition , what it was , both before his change , and after his change .

French .

You abuse the Scriptures , and turns it which wayes your list , into an Allegorie , as a Nose of Wax .

Coppin .

The Scriptures are an Allegorie , and a great mysterie , For great is the mysterie of godlinesse ; and there is a spiritual meaning to be understood in it all along , for the sum of the whole Scripture is included in Law and Gospel , the first and second Covenant , as in Gal. 3. 24. speaking of the Son of the Bond-woman , and the Son of the Free-woman , which things , saith Paul , is an Allegorie , for these are the two Covenants , the one from Mount Sinai which gendereth to bondage , and under which all men are Bondmen , the other , which is Agar , from Mount Sion , or heavenlie Jerusalem , which is Sarah , and under which we are all Freemen , for Jerusalem , which is above , is free , which is the mother of us all , and this also is an Allegorie , and a great mysterie .

Capt. Harrison .

Ye pervert the Scriptures , and are a Blasphemer , and I will prove you so .

Coppin .

What is that you call Blasphemy ?

Capt. Harrison .

I am not to tell you now , speak not to me .

Coppin .

If you speak to me , I must speak to you : But Sir , How will you prove me a Blasphemer , by the Law of God , or the Law of man ?

Capt. Harrison .

First I 'le dispute with you , and do it by the Law of God , and then I 'le take another course .

Coppin .

Then it seemes what you cannot doe one way , you will endeavour to doe another .

Lievtenant Scot .

There is no body here that intends any hurt against you to intrap you .

French .

But he denies Christs body to be in Heaven above , and that is horrible blasphemy .

Coppin .

Prove that Christ is now in Heaven above , over head , as you say , in a body of flesh , blood , and bones , and that he shall so come , for the Scripture saith , flesh and blood shall not enter into Heaven , and though we have known Christ after the flesh , yet henceforth , known we him no more so .

French .

I prove it in Acts 1. that he did ascend up to Heaven in a body of flesh , blood , and bones , 8. Verse . But ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you , &c. And when he had spoken these things , while they beheld , he was taken up , and a cloud received him out of their sight , and while they looked stedfastly toward heaven , as he went up , behold two men stood by them in white apparel , which also said , ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into Heaven , this same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven , shall so a come in like manner as you have seen him go into Heaven : And this is up above overhead , and not within man , as Mr. Coppin would have it .

Coppin .

The Disciples here had but a carnall knowledg of Christ , for the Spirit was not yet come upon them , because Christ was not yet ascended , and they beheld him onely as he was talking with them in his suffering body , which he for that time assumed to himselfe to appeare to them in , to confirm them of his resurrection , and his being taken up in a cloud , was his swift vanishing out of their sight into the Spirit , from that fleshly appearance ( as formerly he had done , the doores being shut ) and in which they were to see him no more , and were also reproved for so looking after him , for why stand ye gazing , ye men of Galilee , up into Heaven , this same Jesus , as you have seene him goe , so in like manner shall you see him come , that is , he grew invisible to their carnall eye , and they were to see him no more till they saw him in them ; So also his coming should be to them suddainly in the Spirit , as of a rushing mighty wind , and so it was , Acts 2. 1.

Therefore this Ascention of Christ is not to be understood carnallie , but spirituallie , even as his descending was at first , for he that ascended , is the same he that first descended ; and we read not of a bodie of flesh and bones that descended , but the Holy Ghost came down upon the Virgin Mary , and the power of the most High overshadowed her ; and this coming ( onlie ) his Disciples were to look for on them , as Christ told them , Acts 1. 4. but wait for the promise of the Father ; which saith , Christ you have heard concerning me , and which you shall receive when the Holie Ghost is come upon you , and which they also did receive , as in Acts 2. and therefore to look for such a fleshlie Christ as you declare , you may look long enough before you see him .

French .

But he was caught up above , overhead , and shall so come again in the very same fleshlie bodie .

Coppin .

This word overhead , there is none written , and this word above you know not , for Christ may be said to be above , and yet in man , for the word above signifies heaven , or heavenlie things , which the Scripture saith is in man ; For if you be risen with Christ , seek the things that are above , which is beyond the reach of a carnal capacitie , being spiritual things , as love , joy , peace , gentlenesse , goodness , meekness , faith , &c. and so carries that name of things above , as the same with God , being things of a purer nature then the things that are below , as division , wrath , envie , malice , and evil speaking , which are the fruits of the flesh , and are said to be earthlie , sensual , and devillish , and so goes under that term below , or inferiour , as one with the devil , and not to be esteemed of as the fruits of the Spirit , which are alwayes in God , and so above all , as God is above the Devil , and Light above Darknesse ; and this is that heaven above , into which Christ is ascended far above all heavens , and into which we all shall be carried by him , to be for ever with him in the Fathers glory . And now pray tell me where is your heaven , which you call above , that you say Christ is in , in a body of flesh .

French .

It is the third Heaven , above the Stars .

Coppin .

How do you prove it ? when the Scripture saith , That the heaven of heavens cannot contain him .

French .

I prove it from Paul , for he was caught up into the third heaven , where he saw Christ , as before , and knew him , and saw things unspeakable , and full of glory with him .

Coppin .

But Paul was all this while living on the earth , and said , Christ was no more to be seen in the flesh after he ascended , and he being caught up into the third heaven , was his being carried up out of himselfe into high Revelations of glorious manifestations of God in him , which is Christ in us the hope of glory .

French .

But he saw Christ there personally in a body , flesh and bones , the same which he had before his death , at Gods right hand , now in glory .

Coppin .

If Christ be at Gods right hand in a body of flesh and bones , after that manner , as you say he is , then this is to make God to be a body of flesh , and bones also , and such a one as your selfe , that must be confined to a locall place , when the Scripture saith , he is unconfined to any time , place , or person , but fills Heaven and earth with his fulness , therefore when you speak of God and Christ , you should declare what they are , and what his right hand is , but because you know not , I will tell you .

God and Christ is one and the same in Spirit and glory , and Christ being in Heaven at Gods right hand , is his being in God far above all Heavens or created things , injoying the same fulness of God , as one whom God cannot be without , he being that eternal wisdome and power by which he doth all things , and by whom all things consist , therefore if any blasphemy hath been spoke , 't is you that hath spoke it , and not I.

Captain Harrison .

Sirrah , you brazenface Rabshackel , what , doe you get up here to declare your blasphemy ? come downe , or I 'le pull you downe .

Coppin .

I thought you had come in love , and not in malice , but now I see your end is to catch what you can to accuse me , and because you cannot have your end , you are angry .

Captain Harrison .

We came here on purpose to heare you , and now we have heard blasphemy enough from your owne mouth , and that you shall know e're long , and so the dispute ended ; but Mr. Coppin desired the people to come againe an houre after , for he was to Preach .

DISPUTE . III. Between Walter Rosewell and Richard Coppin , in the Cathedral of Rochester , on the eleventh of December . ROsewell .

I shall not feare this man , though he were never so well armed with gifts to maintaine his damnable errours .

Coppin .

I acknowledge my selfe ( as I am a man ) to be as the weakest and worst of men , nay , a poor worme , yet strength may be manifest in weaknesse , and wisdome in foolishnesse , For God hath chosen the poor , weak , despised , and base things of the world to confound the wise , and things that are not , to confound the things that are .

And friends and Brethren , I came here as a stranger into those parts , yet through the desires of many of you here present , therefore I am my selfe unacquainted how the actings of men have been , according to the present times , but I am inform'd that some of the chiefest of the Promoters of these Disputes , have been , and are enemies to the present Power ; I shall therefore desire that the Publike Peace , according to the present Government , may be kept and preserved .

Rosewell .

I know you speak something of this to me , as well as others , though you might have spared it ; but I confesse you have made a fair speech , as a prepara●●e unto your businesse , but let that passe , I shall begin .

CHAP. VI . That the whole nature of man was sinful , how Christ took our sins with our nature , and offer'd it up with himself without sin to the Father , that he still lives in it in us , and how . ROsewell .

In the Name of the Lord Jesus , whom you have blasphemed , I shall charge you , and let none be affended that I do begin where I did begin the last day .

Coppin .

Let us not be alwaies on one thing , but if you have any thing else to say , proceed to that , for Mr. French did speak also the same things which you had spoke before , but the other day .

Rosewell .

You said , I had no more the other day , but you shall find I have enough now ; what my Brother French spake the other day , I had no knowledg of , but I think it was unseasonable at that time , and it had been better let alone .

I say , he that from Scripture shall labour to perswade people to believe that Jesus Christ was a sinner , and that his humane nature was tainted with original sin , he is a perverter of Scripture , a blasphemer of Christ , and a venter of damnable errors and heresies , and on this I do desire to build the future structure , but then there was some things hinted for the undermining of this Proposition . Now if Christ be polluted with sins , then is our preaching vain , and your faith in vain , therefore if I do make this my main Proposition , it will not be impertinent to the businesse , therefore let every one turn to the Bible , they may all see to how little purpose those Scriptures was brought by him the other day : First , this is to pull the Crown from the head of Christ , to say he was a sinner : Secondly , I say it is a perverting of Scripture , and a seting Scripture in opposition against Scripture , 1 Pet. 2. 24. He bear our sins , Heb. 4. 15. He was in all things like us , sin onlie excepted , John 14. 30. The Prince of this world cometh , and hath nothing in me , If there had been sin in Christ , he could not have withstood the temptation of the devil , 2 Cor. 5. 21. But you see Jesus Christ was made sin for us , that is , he was made a Sin-offering for us ; I will appeal to all that 's skilled in Tongues , for the same word which is here translated sin , is in Exodus 40. Sin-offering ; where there is a dark saying in the body of the Text , there is a remedy in the side , for it is said , He was made sin for us , which knew no sin in himself : And where Christ is said to bear our sins in his body , it is not in a proper sense , for sin cannot be , and not be , in one and the same person , at one and the same time , as you say , in 1 Pet. 2. 24. He bear our sins , Isa. 53. 6. The Lord hath laid on him the iniquitie of us all : I will grant you in a sound Orthodox sense he may be said to bear our sins , and as his righteousnesse is imputed to us , so is our sins imputed to him : And now I hope I have abundantly satisfied all that are intelligible in making good this Proposition .

Coppin .

You did say the last Sabbath day in your Sermon , that this day you would make me ashamed ever to shew my face any more in this place ( as I was informed ) and this is the way indeed , for you to take up all the time , and let me have none .

Rosewell .

I do dispair now of ever making you ashamed , but I hope to make your Auditorie ashamed .

Coppin .

Pray give me leave to speak now .

Rosewell .

I will give you rope enough .

Coppin .

You have spent a great deal of time to little purpose , to make good a Proposition , which by me was never denied ; for neither you , nor any one else , did ever hear me say , that Christ was a sinner , but was holie , just , and righteous , onlie ( as the Scripture saith ) he was made sin for us , and did bear our sins in his bodie , which you understand not : But to proceed , let me ask you one question ; What flesh and blood was that of man that Christ did take on him ? Was it holie flesh , or sinful flesh ?

Rosewell .

I say that the flesh and blood of man , for the substance of it , which Christ took , was holie ; now Christ took our nature , but not our pollutions .

Captain Smith .

Sir , I conceive that Mr. Coppin hath given you satisfaction to this Proposition in the last Dispute , therefore if you have any thing else Mr. Rosewell , you may please to go on .

Rosewell .

I do but prove now that Christ did not take our pollutions , Luke 2. 35. That Holie thing that shall be born of thee , shall be called the Son of God , he took the nature of a Virgin .

Coppin .

Was the nature of the Virgin Mary without sin when Christ took it on him , in that she was a Virgin , if it were , then in what sense was she called a Virgin .

Rosewell .

In that she did never know man .

Coppin .

And so there are thousands in the world that may be Virgins , upon that account , as not knowing man , and yet be never the lesse sinful , for all have sinned , therefore you say you know not what .

Rosewell .

Pray take heed of his Juggles .

Coppin .

If man was a sinner , and the nature of man which Christ took on him was holie , then to what end did Christ take on him the nature of man , and leave man still in his sins .

Rosewell .

I did not say mens nature was not sinful . Then the people burst out into a laughter , saying , He did .

Captain Smith .

If any do laugh , it will be taken notice of .

Coppin .

Friends , seeing somtimes you cannot chuse but laugh , henceforth laugh inwardly , and make no noise .

Roswell .

I have not to do with children , I suppose this laughter was at the folly of this man , not at me : Now , I say , that the nature of man which Christ did take part of , was polluted with sin , but that part which Christ did take was holy .

Coppin .

You say then , that some part of mans nature was sinful , and some part holie , but you will say anone , that all was sinful .

Rosewell .

I say , all but that part which Christ did take was polluted .

Coppin .

You know not what to say your self , for sometimes you seem to say that all mans nature is sinful , and that Christ took on him mans nature , but not his sins and pollutions : Again , you say he took part of mans nature , which was holie , and left that part which was sinful ; but I say , the whole nature of man was polluted , for a little leaven , leavens the whole lump ; one sin makes all sinful , and Christ took on him the same , or none , even our sins with our nature , and so 't is written , He took our nature , and bear our sins , therefore friends , take notice , how this man have lost himself , and know not how to prove any thing .

Rosewell .

I say , this man will still labour to maintain that Christs nature was polluted with sin .

Coppin .

I say , the nature was ours , but it was no longer polluted , when once Christ lived in it : But I perceive you labour to maintaine Christ to be onelie that individual bodie of flesh , which was part of our flesh , and was sinfull , and not as one living in it , and so you denie the Christ of God , which is our life and light ; and you do but passe away time in repeating over one thing so often , therefore pray have done , that I may go on , to clear it up .

Rosewell .

Yea , I will give you rope enough to go to the end of your ladder .

Coppin .

That the whole nature of man was polluted throughout , the Prophet Isaiah witnesseth , For from the soal of the foot , even unto the head , there is no soundness in it , but wounds , and bruises , and putrified soars , they have not been closed , neither bound up , nor mollified with oyntment , Isa. 1. 6. So that before the coming of Christ into man , to binde up his wounds , to annoint him with oile , and to sanctifie him he is polluted throughout , Ezek. 16.

Rosewell .

Rub your Brazen-face , and go on .

Coppin .

If the nature of man had beene holie before Christ took it on him , then Christ need not have come to make it holie , but because it was polluted with sinne , therefore did Christ come and take part of the same sinfull nature , that he by living in that nature , might sanctifie and cleanse it all , and thereby present the whole nature of man pure , spotlesse , and blamelesse to the Father , making it to be accepted in him the beloved Jesus , for without him there was none righteous , no not , one , but all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God : And he hath concluded all men under sin and unbelief , that he might have mercy upon all ; and this mercie is manifested in Heb. 2. 14. That forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood , he also himself likewise took part of the same , that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death , which is the Devill , and deliver them , who through feare of death , were all their life time subject to bondage : For before Christ did take our flesh on him , the Devill and Sinne did dwell in it , but because that men should not for ever remaine so under the Dominions of sin , death , hell , and the devil ; God himself did manifest himself to live in our nature or sinful flesh , that he might destroy both his and our enemies , even sin , death , hell , and the devill in our nature , which devil had no part in him , 1 John 3. 8. For this purpose was the Son of God manifested , that he might destroy the works of the devil , without which no man could live to see the face of God in righteousnesse ; as 't is written , We must needs die , and are all like water spilt upon the ground , which could not be gathered up again : And God , without respect of persons , did find out this way in his Son to redeem us again to himselfe , even by his being manifest in our flesh , yea , in our sinful flesh , not that he was that flesh , but did live in it , to destroy the pollutions of it , and so present it to his Father , as blamelesse , and as holie as himself , For he that sanctifieth , and they who are sanctified , are all of one , for which cause he is not ashamed to call them Brethren , saying , I will declare thy Name unto my Brethren , in the mid'st of the Church will I sing praise unto thee : And again , I will put my trust in thee , and beh●ld I and the children which God hath given me ( are with thee ) Heb. 2. 11.

Rosewell .

Cannot every one read this as well as you ?

Coppin .

Pray interrupt me not , I shall yet go on , verse 17. 18. He was in all things made like unto his Brethren , that he might be a mercifull and faithfull High-Priest , to offer up for the sinnes of the people , which till he had taken them on him in our likeness , he could not doe ; and in that he himselfe hath suffered for them , being tempted , he is able to succour them that are tempted , but if our nature were holy before Christ took it on him , to what end did he take it to suffer in it ? and yet , I say , this Jesus which did take our nature on him ( and still lives in it , now in us , and will also in those that shall come after us ) was not himselfe sinfull , but righteous , and the sinfulness of it was ours , and is known onely to us , and not to him living in us , for he knew no sin , and yet he in our nature did beare all oursins , and it was the sins of all men that did crucifie him , which he did beare in ( their nature as ) his own body on the Tree , for the same nature that sinned , did suffer for sin , and not another nature , and he being both God and man , as having the nature of both , so he had power to die , and to live againe , to lay downe his life , and to take it up ; and so he became our Holy High-Priest , to offer up us and our nature in himselfe , and his nature , by one offering to the Father ( to reconcile us to God ) when he offer'd up himselfe once for all : And now answer me one question , What High-Priest is that spoken of in Heb. 5. 1. 2. 3. And that you may know , he is there said to have compassion on the ignorant , and on them that are out of the way , for that he himselfe also is compassed about with our infirmities , and what High-Priest is this say you ?

Then answered one Mr. Wife a Minister , It is spoken of Jesus Christ .

Coppin .

It seems you cannot answer your selfe , you must have some other to answer for you .

Rosewell .

I will fetch one Oyster-Wife from Billingsgate shall answer you .

Coppin .

Well , you denie not this answer made for you , concerning this Scripture in Heb. 5. that the High-Priest there spoken of was Christ , which if it be as you say , and not I , then read the next words , ver. 3. and by reason thereof he ought , as for the people , so also for himself , to offer for sins .

Rosewell .

You have confest confest what I charged you with .

Coppin .

I have only read to you the words of the Scripture ; Also if Christ be our Suretie to pay our debt , as in Heb. 7. 22. then the debt became his , as well as ours , which he paid for himself , as for us , after he had taken it to him ; and so he may be said , to offer for his own sins also , as for the peoples , according to these Scriptures , Isaiah 53. 12. He was numbered with the transgressors .

Rosewell .

Now I desire all to take notice , and they may plainly see you are a Blasphemer , I shall now follow you in your Wile-Goose-Chase ; He that shall pretend Scripture , that Christ did offer for his own sins , as also for the peoples , he is a Blasphemer ; but you have ; ergo

Coppin .

I have not pretended Scripture ▪ but have proved all things that I have said plainlie by Scripture ; and concerning that in the Heb. I did ask you what was meant by that High-Priest , and because you did not answer your self , some other bodie did for you , saying , it was Christ .

Rosewell .

But you did affirm that Christ in our nature did offer for his owne sins , as also for the peoples , and how can there be salvation in him that must offer for his owne sins ? therefore all that heare you , must conclude this to be high blasphemy against Jesus Christ , and it is dangerous damnable doctrine .

Coppin .

You say it is dangerous , and so it is to you , because it is contrary to your doctrine , and doth overthrow it , but it is not dangerous to the truth , but to that which is a lye , and that cannot stand before it , and therefore you raile against it , because you can no way overthrow it .

Rosewell .

I say he that saith Christ did offer for his owne sins is a blasphemer .

Coppin .

Is that all you can say , if it be , you were best goe back to Schoole againe , where you learn'd this , and learne some more .

Rosewell .

I have enough , and that you shall see , if I had but your book here

Coppin .

Why did you not bring it with you , seeing you can say nothing without book , I said you wanted help , and so 't is true

CHAP. VII . Of Christ , the Resurrection from the first Adam to the second , proved , with the manner how , and the time when , what body it shall arise , and from what death ; also how it was signified , by what , and when . ROsewell .

He that from Scripture doth labour to perswade men that there is no Resurrection of the body to be exspected , and that no body shall be raised at the last day , he is a perverter of Scripture , and a venter of damnable errors , but you are one , ergo .

Coppin .

I denie your minor , therefore prove it .

Rosewell .

I prove it thus , 1 Cor. 15. That as Jesus Christ was raised from the dead , so all they which have been , are , and shall be , shall be raised up at the last day , which you denie .

Coppin .

I doe grant the Resurrection of the body , and doe not denie it , though you say I doe .

Rosewell .

You did denie that the words in Job did signifie any Resurrection of the bodie ; and also that in 1 Cor. 15. which I can prove .

Coppin .

Is that Resurrection a mysterie , or no mysterie ?

Rosewell .

Yes , a great mysterie , and such a one as I do believe you do not know .

Coppin .

If you do know , pray declare it .

Rosewell .

I am not minded to declare it to you at this time .

Coppin .

Then I will tell you what it is .

Friends and Brethren , I do own a Resurrection according to the Scriptures , and such a Resurrection as you all must partake of before ye can see the Kingdome of God , 1 Cor. 15. There is a Resurrection spoken of by the Apostle , which is the Resurrection of Christ , and of our rising in and with him , from the state of the first Adam , to the state of the second Adam ; but there were some then , as well as now , that did think the Apostle had meant carnallie the rising again of the same bodie of flesh and bones , and therefore did ask the question , with what bodies they shall arise , not knowing what the Dead was , nor the life it should be raised to , and how God giveth it a bodie as pleaseth him . Now to prove this Resurrection , Christ saith , I am he which was alive , and was dead , and am alive again , and lives for evermore .

Rosewell .

Do you hear , he saith Christ was alive , and dead .

Coppin .

There is nothing can be said to die , but first it must be alive , nor made to live , but it must first die : Now Christ is he which was alive , was dead , and is alive again ; the first that was living , and the last that lives .

In John 11. 21. Martha comes to Christ , and saith , Lord , if thou had'st been here , my Brother had not died : Christ said , Thy Brother shall rise againe : I know , said Martha , he shall rise at the Resurrection , on the last day : Jesus said unto her , I am the Resurrection , and the Life , he that believeth in me , though he were dead , yet shall he live , and he that lives and believes in me shall never die , Believest thou this ? Now she had Faith to believe that he was Christ , the Son of God , but could not believe the truth of her Brothers Resurrection in Christ : therefore did-Christ blame her , saying , Had'st thou but believed , thou should'st have seen the glory of God , John 11. 40.

Now if Christ be the Resurrection , and the Life , then there is nothing in this Resurrection , but what is himself , for he is the dead raised , the raiser of this dead , and the life raised too , as he saith , I am the Resurrection , and the Life . Now take notice that I do not denie any thing of Christ all this while , but do advance him , and also our Resurrection in him , as the Scripture saith , We are raised up together with him , to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus , and this is the mysterie of the Resurrection , which you say is a great mysterie .

Now saith the Apostle to those carnal enquirers that knew not this mysterie of the Resurrection , but asked with what bodies they should arise , Thou fool , saith the Apostle , that which thou sowest is not quickned , except it die , and thou sowest not that body that shall be , but bare grain , it may chance of wheat , or some other grain , so it is not , saith be , the same body which thou sowest that is raised , but God giveth it a body as pleaseth him . And why then , say you , that the same bodie shall be raised again ?

Now Paul to prove this spiritual Resurrection , tells us , that there is one glorie of the Sun , another glorie of the Moon , and another of the Stars , and one Star differs from another Star in glorie ; so also is the Resurrection of the dead , it is sown in corruption , it is raised in incorruption ; 't is sown in dishonor , it is raised in glorie ; it is sown in weaknesse , it is raised in power , and all in us , that I may know him , saith Paul , and the power of his Resurrection , and the fellowship of his sufferings , being made conformable to his death , if by any means I might attain unto the Resurrection of the dead , for which I presse forwards , saith Paul : So that this Resurrection is to be within you , and you are to know it while you live in this bodie , for it is your rising from faith to faith , from glorie to glorie , as from one administration of God to another , Behold , saith Paul , I shew you a mysterie , we shall not all sleep , but we shall be changed ; that is , changed from the state of the first Adam , to the state of the second Adam , and so he tells us , It was sown in Adam , it was raised in Christ , it was sown a natural body , and it is raised a spiritual body , even as you see your change , for the first man Adam is of the earth earthy , a living soul , the second is the Lord from heaven , a quickening spirit , and as is the earthly , so are they that are earthly , and as is the heavenly , so are they that are heavenly ; wherefore examine your selves , and you will now find it so , for you are all of you either in the state of the first Adam , or in the state of the second Adam , and your change is from the first to the second , that as you have born the image of the earthly , so you shall bear the image of the heavenlie , for there is a bodie natural , and a bodie spiritual , all which are proper to us in this life : And thus Paul tells us of the Resurrection in a mysterie .

Now take notice that I do not denie any Resurrection in all this , which by any man may be proved , but I do declare to you the mysterie of this spiritual Resurrection , which I know , and which you say is a mysterie : Secondly , consider the death you are to be raised from , and that is the death that all men died in the state of the first Adam , and do still die , by reason of sin , from which death all shall be raised to life in Christ , the second Adam : Now the wages of sin is death , and that death which sin doth bring on man , is the same death that Christ doth raise him from , For you who were dead in sins and trespasses , hath he quickned , and if ye be risen with Christ , seek the things which are above , where Christ siteth at the right hand of God , which is spoken in the Presentence , and not in the Future , and cannot be meant of the rising of our corporal bodies , after laid in the grave , which I question whether those that talk so much of that , do yet know this spiritual Resurrection , which I hereby declare to you all ; and if any one can tell us of another Resurrection of the same body of flesh , blood , and bones again as it was , let him declare that , as I have declared this , for I denie nothing which by any other can be proved , but the Scripture saith , That flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdome of God , neither doth corruption inherit incorruption ; therefore blessed and happy are all they which have their part in this first Resurrection , for of such the second death hath no power , but they live and raign with Christ .

Thirdly , As there is a bodie to be raised , so there is also a bodie to be destroyed , and that is the bodie of sin and death , which is to die , and no more to live , For if Christ be in you , the body is dead , because of sin , but the spirit is life , because of righteousnesse , that is of Christ : And in Rom 6. there is a Resurrection from sin , to newnesse of life , spoken of by the Apostle , that like as Christ was raised from the dead , by the glorie of the Father , even so should we walk before him in newnesse of life ; for if we have been planted together in the likenesse of his death , we shall be also in the likenesse of his Resurrection , knowing this , that our old man is crucified with him , that the bodie of sin might be destroyed , that henceforth we should not serve sin .

Rosewell .

2 Tim. 2. 18. But there were false Prophets among them , as there are false Teachers among you , which say , the Resurrection is past already , and so bring in damnable errors to overthrow the saith , and we see there were some in the Apostles daies which did deny a corporal Resurrection .

Coppin .

Do you instance that Scripture as to a corporal Resurrection , which speaks nothing of it , you do add to that Scripture ( the word corporal ) and you know the punishment of him that addeth thereto , or diminisheth therefrom . Again , I do not say the Resurrection is past already , for it is not yet come to you , nor many more , therefore your Scripture is to no purpose against me ; for I say , it is to come , as well as alreadie come , and that it shall continue until the Day of Judgment be ended , or till all that shall be , are raised , and set free in this spiritual Resurrection , from death , hell , or the grave , in which they lie imprisoned and buried , by reason of sin ; but the Sadduces , who denie the Resurrection , hold there is neither Angel nor Spirit , and that do not I.

Rosewell .

I shall prove the Resurrection of the body , from Job 19. Where Job saith , He shall see God with those eyes at the last day : 1 Cor. 15. Paul saith , If the dead rise not , then is our preaching vain , and your faith is vain , and you are yet in your sins : And Job saith , Though wormes destroy his bodie , yet in this flesh , in this bodie , shall I see God , which doth clearlie prove a corporal Resurrection , but I shall give him rope till night .

Coppin .

Add not to the Scripture , for there is no such bodily Resurrection spoken of , as you declare , 1 Cor. 15. 12. so on , pray see friends , Paul doth not speak of a corporal Resurrection , but tells them of the Resurrection of the Dead , and saith , That if Christ be not risen , then all our Preaching and Believing is in vain , and we are yet in our sins : Clearlie intimating , that the Resurrection of Christ doth assure them of their being raised from sin , to walk with God in newnesse of life , For , saith he , you are sown a natural body , but you are raised a spiritual body ; and a spirituall bodie is not flesh and bones , therefore not the same bodie , as you say it is , and would have it to be .

Rosewell .

There shall be eyes , hands , and feet .

Coppin .

That there shall be eyes , hands , and feet , you are yet to prove .

Rosewell .

Job saith , He shall see God with those eyes , and that in this his flesh he shall see God : Againe , the Scripture saith , That they which are alive , and them which are dead , shall be raised , and all of them shall meet the Lord , only this corruptible must put on incorruptible , and this mortall must put on immortalitie : Again , the bodies of Believers are the Temples of the Holy Ghost , 1 Cor. 6. and the Temples of Jesus Christ , therefore the same bodies shall be raised at the last day .

Coppin .

You also bring Job to prove a Corporal Resurrection , of flesh , blood , and bones , and that this Resurrection , and seeing God with those eyes , was not to be , till after the death of his visible bodie , as you say ; but I say here is a mysterie ▪ and a spiritual sense to be understood in these words , Job . 19. where he saith , I know my Redeemer liveth , and that at the last day I shall s●e him stand upon the earth ; and though after my skin , worms destroy this body , yet in my flesh shall I see God , whom I shall see , for my selfe , and mine eyes shall behold , and not anothers , though my reins be consumed within me . But to understand this , you must know how he is the Redeemer , and when , also what is meant by the last day , and the earth which he shall stand upon , and what eyes shall behold him , &c.

Now his Redeemer was the Lord , and did then live in Job , though he knew it not , & that he should see him at the last day , is a truth , but what this last day was , and the manner how he should see him , that he knew not , till the time came that he saw him in himselfe ; therefore you shall find that Job was then in darkness , and under much affliction , uttering words without knowledg , for which he was reproved , first by the Prophet Elihu , secondlie by the Lord , thirdlie he confest it ; first the Prophet reproved him , Job 33. Chap. 35. 16. Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vaine , he multiplieth words without knowledg , Job 38. 1. 2. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind , and said , who is this that darkeneth counsell by words without knowledg , gird up now thy loynes like a man , for I will demand of thee , and answer thou me . And so he goes on to reprove Job of his ignorance of God , and in Chap. 40. 3. Job answers the Lord and saith , bebold I am vile , what shall I answer thee , I will lay my hand upon my mouth , once have I spoken , but I will not answer , yea twice , but I will proceed no further , and in Chap. 42. 3. he acknowledges his error and ignorance of God , and answers the Lord , saying , who is he that hideth counsell without knowledge , therefore have I uttered that I understand not , things too wonderfull for me , which I knew not , but now hear , I beseech thee , and I will speak , I have often heard of thee by the hearing of the care , but now mine eyes seeth thee , wherefore I abhor my selfe in dust and ashes . Thus did Job in his life time see the King , the Lord of Hosts , his Redeemer , standing upon , ( and was a conqueror of ) that earth , the first Adam which he first lived in the Image of , till the second Adam appeared , as at the last day of the first Adam in him , which he before said should come , and wa● now come to him , For now doe mine eyes see thee .

Rosewell .

Pray read a little further , and ye shall find that God saith , his freinds had not spoken right of him , as his servant Job had done ; and again , this cannot be meant of his seeing his Redeemer , for now ●is 〈…〉 ynes and reines was not consumed .

Coppin .

'T is true , Job never spoke the things that was right of the Lord , till he said , Now doe mine eyes see thee ; and this his friends could not say , for they had not seen the Lord , as his servand Job had ; therefore , though after his skin wormes had destroyed his body , yet in his flesh he did see God .

this skin was the good esteem he had of his own righteousnesse , the pride and glory of his own flesh , which he was stripped of , for boasting in it , and so saith Job , He hath stripped me of all my glory , and taken the Crown from off my head ; and the body that must be destroyed , was the body of sin and corruption which was within him , and is in all men for a time , while they live in the corrupt state of the old Adam , and the wormes are the terrors of the troubled minde , which as Troops of Robbers feeds upon the flesh of the earthly man , and Job had many in his flesh , For my flesh , saith he , is cloathed with Wormes , my skin is broken , and become loathsome , the arrows of the Almighty sticks fast in me , his Archers compasse me round about , and he cleaveth my reins in sunder . Here was the destruction of Jobs body in his life time , all his comforts were taken from him , and all those things were fulfilled upon him , and appeared in him , and yet , saith he , after all this I shall see my Redeemer , and so he did , fo● when through the manifestation of God to him , his soul within him was revived , his knowledge and understanding enlightened , and his reins , with the girdle of saith strengthened , then , saith he , Now do mine eyes see thee , and I am no more my self , but a new man in thee , for now is my change come , therefore cannot be meant of the body after a naturall death , as you say it is .

Robison .

Of all Religions , this is most damnable , to say there is no Resurrection of the body .

Coppin .

I denie not any thing which any man can prove to be true , from Scripture .

Rosewell .

I prove a corporall Resurrection of our bodies , from the example of Christs Resurrection of his Body .

Coppin .

That was a signe to us of our rising with Christ to a newness of life , both toward God and man .

Rosewell .

I denie the Resurrection of Christs body to be a signe .

Coppin .

You say the corporal Resurrection of Christ is no sign , and yet you say againe it doth signifie the Resurrection of our bodies , but the Scripture saith not so , but saith , That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father , even so we also should walk in newnesse of life , and so will he change our vile bodies here , and make them like unto his glorious bodie , by subduing all things to himself in us , which is the spiritualty and glory of our bodies .

Captain Smith .

We grant you that .

Coppin .

Then give me leave , Christ being born of the Virgin Mary , Was it also a signe to us , or not ?

Robison .

Was it but a signe to us , and no substance .

C●ppin .

I doe not say so , but I say it was a signe which I prove , Isa. 7. 14. Therefore the Lord himselfe shall give you a signe , behold a Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son , and shall call his name Emanuel . Now what did this signifie , but that as the Virgin did bring forth Christ in our nature , flesh , blood , and bones , so should Christ bring forth himselfe in every one of us , in Spirit and truth , Gal. 4. 14. My little Children , saith Paul , of whom I travell in birth againe , untill Christ be formed in you , not as a bodie , flesh , and bones in us , for that were to make many Christs , as for every man one , but he shall be formed in us in Spirit and power .

Rosewell .

I doe not believe , but Christ is here said to be a signe , but what is the thing signified , that King Ahaz should overcome his enemies , and that the Scepter should not depart from Juda , till Shilo come .

Coppin .

That is till Christ come Spirituall in us , or else what benefit is it to us to look back upon the birth and death of Christ as signes , and doe not see the things signified ; For a wicked and adulterous generati●n seeketh after a signe , and never looks on the thing signified , which is the birth , death , and Resurrection of Christ in them , which should all be made manifest in our mortall flesh , and so saith Paul , I doe always beare about in the bodie , the dying also of the Lord Jesus , that the life of Jesus might be made manifest in our bodie , and now doe I rejoyce in my sufferings for you , and do fill up the measure of the sufferings of Christ in my flesh , for his bodies sake , which is the Church , whereof I Paul am made a Minister , according to the dispensation of God , which is given to me for you to fullfill the word of God , even the mysterie which hath been hid from all ages , and now is made manifest to his Saints , to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mysterie , which is Christ in you , the hope of glory .

CHAP. VIII . The Mystery of the Trinity in relation to man , of the state of Reprobation , when , how long , and how . ROsewell .

I desire you may go on : How is Christ in you the hope of glory ?

Coppin .

Tell me , what do you mean by Christ , and then I will tell you , how he is Christ the hope of glorie in man .

Rosewell .

I do mean by Christ the Son of God , the second person in the Trinity , God our All-blessed for ever , he that did take our nature of his Virgin Mother , and doth in our nature sit at the right hand of God , and will come again at the last day to judge the quick and dead .

Coppin .

I do not denie the three persons , according to the Scripture , but you do denie Christ to be within us , and would subscribe him to a place above our heads , with another person ; therefore I will tell you what the Trinity is . First , there is God the Father that did create all things , and in whom all things live , when yet unknown to man , and that men might know him that is true , he did appear as a son amongst men , to manifest himself to men , and so he is said to be Immanuel , God withus , which is also Christ in us the hope of glory : Thirdly , there is the Holy Spirit , and that is the compleat manifestation of the fulness of all things brought home to mans understanding , wherein God , Christ , and man appears , all but one in one God , as Christ saith , I in them , and thou in me , that we all may be made perfect in one ; and saith he , The Comforter , which is the Holy Ghost , whom the Father will send in my name , he shall come , and teach you all things .

Now so long as man is without this manifestation of God , which is Christ in him , he is a reprobate , and knows not God ; but when Christ shall so appear in man to shew the Father plainly , then is there a perfect knowledg of the true God in man , John 14. 20. At that day ye shall know that I am in the Father , and you in me , and I in you , and then know you not but that Christ is in you , except you be reprobates : And now what is a reprobate , but not to have Christ in you , which is God manifest in flesh , therefore , I say , Reprobation is the not knowing of God to be in you , Rom. 1. 28. for because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge , God gave them over to a reprobate mind ; but where there is God manifest in flesh to the knowledge of any , there is Christ , and that man is no longer a reprobate , for then is God said to walk in him , as being no longer still and silent , but is seen and known to him ; as when a man dwells in a house , shuting the windows to him , and will not be seen ; so when God doth not only dwell in man , but also walk in man , discovering himself to man , by opening and leting in the light through the understanding of man , then is Father , Son , and Spirit , all three as one God , dwelling , walking , and manifesting himself in man , For , saith he , I will dwell amongst you , and I will walk amongst you , I will be your God , and you shall be my people .

Rosewell .

You have confounded the three persons .

Coppin .

No , I have united them together in their proper places , as all agreeing in one , when as they were three manifestations of that one great and glorious God , Father , Son , and Spirit .

Rosewell .

It is high time for Magistrates , Ministers , and people to look about them , when such damnable errors are uttered with so impudent a face .

Captain Smith .

Mr. Rosewell , It is the plain Scripture , I conceive , Mr. Coppin hath given the people satisfaction in those things ; for he saith , that Jesus Christ is in no reprobates , nor in no man , till they know God ; and that where God doth manifest himself to a soul , there is Christ .

Rosewell .

But Sir , he , I know , doth mean , that there is no reprobates ordained to wrath ; now tell me , will Christ be in them you call reprobates , first or last ?

Coppin .

There is no man now come to know God , but first he did not know God , and so long he was a reprobate , which that all men are , till Christ be dwelling in them .

Captain Smith .

Till Jesus Christ be manifested in them , he saith , they are reprobates .

Rosewell .

But I have a new question , that is , Will Christ be manifest in them all , first or last ? answer that .

Coppin .

I will give you a plain Scripture for an answer , 1 Tim. 2. 4. 5. Who will have all men to be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth , for there is one God , and one Mediator betweene God and man , even the man Christ Jesus , who gave himselfe a ransome for all men to be testified in due time , whereunta I Paul am ordained an Apostle , I speak the truth in Christ , and lie not .

Rosewell .

You see ●e affirms that God will save all men .

Coppin .

I have answered you in the plain words of Scriptures , which is an answer sufficient ; And Paul saith , He doth speak the truth in Christ , and lies not ; pick what you can out of that ; and of this Gospel truth , saith he , I Paul am made a Minister .

Rosewell .

You do not say that Christ shall appear in all , but you bring this as a proof ; now no Scripture doth contradict another , now this is meant , he will save some of all sorts of men of places and authority .

Coppin .

The Apostle saith all , and you say some , who perverts Scripture now , you or I ?

Rosewell .

You are not to pray for all men , therefore all shall not be saved .

Coppin .

If all shall be saved that are to be prayed for , then there is none but shall be saved , for prayers is to be made for all men .

Rosewell .

But the Apostle means all sorts of men , and that some of all sorts shall be saved .

Coppin .

Then by your own words there is no one whole sort of men in the world left out from salvation , but some of all sorts , and not all of any sort , ( you say ) shall be saved ; and the Scripture saith , all men of all sorts , for both the fulnesse of Jews and Gentiles shall come in , therefore name any of any sort that shall not .

CHAP. IX . The sin against the Holy Ghost not forgiven , what it is , who commits it , and when . ROsewell .

He that hath commited the sin against the Holy Ghost , that after strong conviction of truth , do fall away , and are perverted , they shall not be forgiven in this world , nor the world to come .

and whosoever commits sin is of him , but he that is born of God sineth not , neither can he , for his seed remaineth in him .

Rosewell .

He that is born of God sineth not , that is , willingly to make a trade of sin , yet in the best of Gods people there is sin .

Coppin .

Then he that commits sin is of the devill , and shall be destroyed , but if he that commits sin , and is of the devill , be meant of men , there is none shall be saved , if all commits sin , as you say .

Rosewell .

No , I doe not say so .

Coppin .

But you do , therefore heare , if he that commits sin is of the devill , as the Scripture saith , and that as you say , all men do commit sin ( for you say in the best of Gods people there is sin ) and that God will destroy the persons of men for their sins commited by them , who is that sinner then in the world , that shall be saved ? and what is that sinner which shall perish ? if you know , declare it , what , and who that sinner is .

Rosewell .

I doe think there is one in the Pulpit , which doth sin against God , in blaspheming his Name .

Coppin .

There is one then , but is that all , well , you say I am a sinner , but I hope you think your selfe to be a righteous person , I say then let him that is without sin , cast the first stone , the Scripture ●aith , he hath concluded all men under sin , that he might have mercie upon all , and 't is wel for me that I am a sinner , for then I am sure to have a part in Christ , for he came not to call the righteous , but sinners .

Rosewell .

If none shall be saved , but the Elect , then all shall not be saved , but it is cleare , none shall be saved but the Elect , when he is revealed from heaven , he will take vengeance on all that know not God , Isa. 27. 11. Also 2 Thes. 1. 7. 8. And indeed the whole Chapter , read and consider it seriously , and be not led away by these Imposters .

Coppin .

The Lord Jesus is now revealed from heaven in flameing fire , taking vengeance on all that know him not , neither own him in his people , as al unrighteousness of men , which hold the truth in unrighteousness , doe not , and against this the wrath of God is revealed , and not against the persons of men ; yet those men , so long as this unrighteousness is in them , they appeare not as men , yet saved by him , but doe suffer the vengeance and terror of this fierce fiery appearing of God to them , till the enemie ; the devill in them is destroyed , that made them sinners , by commiting sin in them .

Rosewell .

Take notice he doth deny a general coming of Christ at the last day , in flaming fire , rendering vengeance on the persons of men .

Coppin .

I do not denie the coming of Christ to render vengeance to whom it belongs , for vengeance is mine , saith the Lord , and I will repay ; therefore I believe some hath it now , and he is come , and doth come and will come , to take vengeance on all that know him not ( and is of the devil ) in me , you , and every man else , and when he is so come to any soul for that work , he will then let them know , that he himself is that flame of fire that will devoure his adversaries , ( to wit ) the bryers and thorns with which we fight against God in the time of our ignorance , persecuting the truth : For what was Paul when Christ came to him , was he not a great persecutor of the Church and people of God in those daies ? and Christ came to him in a flame of fire , to take vengeance on that in him which knew not God ( but had fought against the truth ) saying , Saul , Saul , why persecutest thou me ? and yet he , in that person , after that , lived and Preach'd the Gospel which he once destroyed .

French .

You had need go and be a School-boy again .

Coppin .

I am indeed a School-boy now in the School of Christ , and 't were well if you were one there also .

French .

The Lord stop thy mouth .

Rosewell .

He doth say the day of Judgement is past already .

Coppin .

I say it not , but do say that it is come , and coming , and therefore answer me to the former Scripture , which you would passe by , He that commits sin , is of the devill ; for there is yet more to be said to that before we leave it .

Rosewell .

That is , every one that continues to be of the Devill , he shall be destroyed , and there is whole heaps of them in hell now , and there for ever shall be tormented with fire and brimstone .

Coppin .

If this be all you know , I will tell you more , He that committeth sin , is of the devil ; and there is no man but doth commit sin , and so long the devil raigns in him ; but when the Lord Jesus Christ doth manifest himself in that man , to destroy the works of the devil , he then binds the devil in that man , disposses●es him of his place , throwes out all his goods and houshold stuff , and sets them on a fire together , according to this Scripture , Mark 3. 27. 28. No man can enter into a strong mans house , and spoile his goods , except he first bind the strong man , and then he will spoile his house .

This house is man , the strong man that keeps it , is the devill , ( or man in his strengh ) but when the Lord Jesus Christ , who is stronger then he is come , then is the devill bound , his goods spoiled , and all that mans sins forgiven him .

Rosewell .

I doe confesse all by nature are sinfull , but all doe not sin in that sense , so that all that hath been said is to no purpose .

Coppin .

You did say at first , you would make me so ashamed that I should not shew my face here any more ; and indeed all that hath been said by you yet , is little to that purpose .

Rosewell .

Indeed I did alwaies dispairof making your brazen-face ashamed .

Coppin .

Then give me leave to proceed , I say there is for a time in every man , the old man living and sining , and also the new man that sineth not , and those are at difference one with another , untill the one hath overcome the other , as Paul saith of himselfe after he was first converted , Rom. 7. 22. I delight ( saith he ) in the law of God after the inward man , but I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind , that I cannot doe the things that I would , for with my mind I serve the law of God , but with my flesh the law of sin , so it is no more I that sins , but sin that dwelleth in me , not the new man , but the old man that sineth .

Rosewell .

And this you doe affirm to be in every man .

Capt Smith .

Mr. Coppin , many people desire to know if you speake this of the regenerate state of man , or if it be the state of all men .

Coppin .

I say this , that all men so far as they are regenerated , doth not commit sin , but the wicked one , which is called the unregenerate part , doth rule in all men for a time , more or lesse , untill he be wholly thrown out , but when the Lord Jesus by manifesting himselfe for that work , doth begin to seize on that wicked part , then the work of regeneration begins , and then man is not all wicked , nor all righteous , but part of both , as the Apostle was , in his first conversion , and so long there is a warfare in man , till the old man be wholly subdued , according to this Scripture , he that is in Christ is a new crature , old things are past away , and all things are become new .

Captain Smith .

And concerning this , Paul saith , I thank God through Jesus Christ , with my mind I serve the law of God , though with my flesh the law of sin .

Rosewell .

He speaketh there of a regenerate state .

People say , let Mr. Coppin speake .

Rosewell .

Pray let me speak , you see with what a bundle of words this man hath heaped up a discourse , as that the wicked one in man doth commit sin , and that when Christ doth come , that is but the beginings of his regeneration , and you know that when Christ doth lay hold on any soule , there is a work of regeneration wrought on that man , and this work of regeneration , Christ doth work onely in his people , not in all men .

Coppin .

It is manifest that all men were , and are , the people of God , though til this work of regeneration is wrought in them , they do not appeare to be of God , but of the devill , having not the knowledg of God within them .

CHAP. XI . A briefe hint of generall salvation by Christ , of the people called Jews , Gentiles , and Heathens , &c. that it is the onely doctrine to keep men from sin , and to be assured of their owne salvation , how , and when . ROsewell .

The whole Scripture puts difference between the seed of the woman , and the seea of the serpent , and between them that shall be saved , and them that shall be damned , and if the devill should come from hell , and preach a doctrine to bring men to the broad way of destruction , this is the onely thing to make them believe , all shall be saved , and that whatsoever good deeds man doe , can doe them no good , and whatsoever evill deeds they doe , can doe them no hurt .

Coppin .

You say there is no greater thing in the world to bring men into the broad way of destruction , then to tell men that all shall be saved , and that it is doctrine of devills , therefore shall I goe on , and prove how God will save all men , and destroy onely the seed of the serpent in them , which is no doctrine of devills , but of Christ and his Apostles , which they preached for to call men to salvation from the broad way of destruction , into which they were led by the doctrine of damnation ( or damnable doctrine ) the doctrine of devills , For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved , and it is God that justisieth sinners , who the● shall condemn ? Not I , saith the Lord , for I will that all men shall be saved ; and of this , saith Paul , am I made a Minister , I speak the truth in Christ , and lye not , my conscience also bearing me witnesse in the Holy Ghost , that I have great heavinesse for my Brethren , according to the flesh , who are Israelites , and yet ignorant of this mysterie , their own salvation ; 〈…〉 and therefore Brethren consider seriously of the Doctrine of the Apostle in Rom. Chap. 9. 10. 11. First , he goes on and tells them , that though Israel be as the sand in the sea , yet a remnant shall be saved , meaning of the Jewes at that time , to whom the word ( Election ) only belongs , for a very small number then believed , the rest were blinded , yet he tells them it shall come to passe , that in the same place where it was said unto them , Ye are not my people , there shall it be said , Ye are the children of the living God ; what saith the Apostle , though Israel be cut off for a time , hath God therefore cast away his people which he foreknew , God forbid ? God hath not cast away his people for ever , though at this present time there remains but a remnant , according to the Election of grace , that is now , saith he , but doth not tell them it shall be alwayes so , but to the contrary he affirmes , for the holy seed was still in them , though they were blind and saw it not ; and of this he would not have them ignorant , that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel , until the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in , and so saith he , ( which said before a remnant should be saved , saith now ) all Israel shall be saved ( as it is written ) A Deliverer shall come out of Sion , and shall turn away ungodlinesse from Jacob , and this shall be my Covenant when I take away their sins , for the people shall be all righteous , a little one shall become a thousand , a small number shall become a great number , I the Lord shall hasten it in due time , that it shall no more be said , a remnant , but all Israel shall be saved , yea , Jewes and Gentiles , bond and free , all have been baptized into Christ , and shall be saved by Christ , who is all , and in all ; And the Heathen also hath he given to his Son Christ for an inheritance , and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession , to be possest by him , but of the times and seasons , Brethren , I would not have you ignorant , for he comes as a Thief in the night .

And whereas you say , that this Doctrine of Salvation to all men gives men liberty to sin , I tell you no , for when once this love of God , which is so free to all men , hath appeared to my soul , thy soul , and any soul in the world , it will keep him from the liberty of sining , and bind him fast to the liberty of Christ , as it is written , The grace of God , which brings salvation to all men hath appeared ; what to do , to give them liberty to sin , no ; but doth teach them to deny all ungodlinesse , and worldly lusts , and to live soberly and righteously in this present world ; no more according to your own wills , but the Lords will , for now they are in the power and hands of the Lord , and he doth act them which way he please for his own glory , and their good in him , and then what art thou , O man , that judgest thy Brother , thou therein judgest the Law by which he is kept ; and thou art not then a doer of the Law , but a Judge ; for man cannot do any thing of himself , but by that Law which he is kept , and therefore all men are to say , If the Lord will , we shall do this or that , for the Law of love , which is in Christ , constrains men to that which is good , from that which is evil .

And therefore to the contrarie of what you say I declare , that by your preaching of wrath , hell , and damnation , to poor souls that are weak in the faith , it doth but cast them down from the knowledge of the love of God , through which they should s●● themselves saved , and they can never see the love of God in Christ after that way which you preach unto them , and therefore pray see friends , who say they Preaches Gospel , know what Gospel 't is they Preach ; the Apostle saith , The Gospel which they preach , is not after mans wisdome , but by the demonstration of the spirit , and of power ; For we Preach , saith he , Christ crucified , to the Jewes a stumbling block , and to the Greeks foolishnesse , because they know not the mysterie of godlinesse , which is Christ in them , the wisdome of God , and the power of God ; and we preach peace on earth , and good will towards men , and to God , glory in the highest : And O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those which bring tydings of peace , and say to Sion , thy God raigneth , thy warfare is accomplished , and thy sin is pardoned ; and this Gospel did Christ preach , and command to be preached to every creature under heaven , as the work of his Ministerie .

Rosewell .

He doth maintain the salvation of all , and doth condemn others which do not so , you may plainly see now how you are misled , and I hope you are all abundantly satisfied in it ; if it were not to give satisfaction to some , I would not have put my self to this trouble to have discoursed with such a man , in whose forehead Blasphemy is written in Capital Letters , he that runs may read it .

Coppin .

Seeing you cannot tell how to call me bad enough , as you think , therefore I will give you a little more before you go , and catch what you can , that is , that no man can be assured of his own salvation , except he see the same salvation in the same Saviour , for all men , as well as for himself , which is to love his Neighbour as himself .

Rosewell .

Better and better .

Coppin .

For Jesus Christ did die and pay a price for all men , one as well as another , and if there be but a few men saved , and the greatest part damned to eternitie , as you say , there is , what assurance then can there be to any , for all were sinners , and if there were but one man to be so damned , how could any man assuredly know ( except he believe this ) but that he himself might be that one man .

Rosewell .

Blessed be God which doth so discover him to us , his Elder Brother which went before him was more subtil , not to discover those Blasphemies which lay hid in him , but in you , the devil appears in his colours ; and in his Stage-play terms .

Coppin .

I have not yet said any evil of you , though you are pleased to raile at me for speaking the truth freelie .

Rosewell .

It is not judging nor railing , to call a Blasphemer a Blasphemer , though I will not deny but there may be something spoken of a weak Brother ; and also that Scripture in the Rom. by you mentioned , when he speaks of a remnant , and that they shall be grafted in again ; and whereas you say , that all shall be saved , Matth. 22. 14. Many are called , but few are chosen . I am sorry I must be so brief , but straightened in my body ; the truth is , his lungs are better then mine , but I hope must here are satisfied in what hath been here stoken .

Robison .

We are well satisfied ; pray God keep us from this damnable Doctrine .

Coppin .

It remaines damnable to all that believe it not , for though it be a truth , that God will save all men , yet till man doth see this salvation within him , there is no satisfaction unto him , but he still remains only as one called with the multitude that shall be saved , but being not yet chosen , he remains as one unsaved ; until his time appointed comes , that he see himself saved , which will then be his choice or election to the faith by the spirit of adoption , so that many are called , but few are chosen , but the called shall all be chosen , for it is written , That the promise of salvation is to all that are afar off , and as many as the Lord shall call , Acts 2. 39.

CHAP. XII . Of the Day of Judgment , and all mens coming to it , with the time when , the place where , the manner how , the matter judged , and for what . ROsewell .

You say we preach damnation , and so do cast men downe , we do preach it to such as do go on in their sins ; and live and die in their sins , that hell is their portion ; and as for thousands which die in their infancie , the corruption of their natures is enough to damn them in hell to all eternity , I can but hint at those things , indeed if we did preach only damnation we were too blame , but when we do Preach comfort to Believers , we preach damnation to unbelievers , as Christ saith , He that believeth shall be saved , and he that believeth not shall be damned at the Day of Judgement , Rom. 2. who after their hardnesse of heart , treasure up wrath against the day of wrath , and revelation of the righteous judgment of God , who will render to every man according to his deeds , to them that are contentious , and obey not the truth , indignation and wrath , tribulation and anguish , to every soule of man which doth evill , to the Jew first , and also to the Gentile .

Coppin .

Sir , you have run through many words of wrath and judgment , but nothing is proved by you , what it is , nor when it is ; and whereas you say , there is a day of wrath and judgment , I doe acknowledge the same , and that it is both to Jewes and Gentiles , and all that obey not the truth ; but whereas you also say , that some Jewes which are dead already shall not be grafted in againe I denie , for the promise that they should come in , was then made for all the stiff-necked Jewes , that were also then , and before living , though their bodies fell in the wilderness , yet their Spirits are living , and shall again be grafted in , When the earth shall be full of the knowledg of God , and though you from Rom. 2. doe say they are under wrath , you doe not from thence prove that it shall abide on them , for ever and ever ; now I say , that that man which is under wrath must there remaine , till the Lord Jesus doth come to him , to manifest himselfe in him , to turne his wrath away from him , and so judg that in him for wrath , which is for wrath , and that for mercy which is for mercy ; but because you have not declared what this day of wrath and judgment is , I will , for a day of judgment there is , in which all men shall be judged , and receive according to their deeds , and if there be more then one day of judgment which I shall shew you , then doe you declare it , for I denie nothing which can be proved by any man from Scriptute .

Now the Scripture saith there is judgment appointed for all men , as 't is written , It is appointed for all men once to die , and after that the judgment ; and this death is adying into sin and trespasses , for the wages of sin is death , which none can be delivered from , but by judgment , and the Lord Jesus is to be the Judg of all , For the Father judgeth no man , but hath commited all judgment to the Son , who will not judg by the sight of the eye , nor hearing of the eare , but will judg righteous judgment ; and Christ saith , for judgment am I come into this world , and now , saith he , is the judgment of this world is come ; now shall the Prince of this world be cast out ; and as it began then , so it is not ended yet , but goeth on still , and shall continue so long as there is any sin , death , hell , or devill , to be judged , or condemned in man ; And that every eare and eye , that heares and sees any thing besides Christ , shall be made deafe and blind , and every mouth that speaks any thing besides Christ the truth , shall be stopped , that so the Lord himself may be all in all , and saith Peter , The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God , and if it begin at us , what shall the end be of them that obey not the Gospel of God ? why , all shall come to judgment , every man in his order , at the time when the Lord shall appear unto them .

And this is not a visible temporal Judgement on the bodies of men , but invisible in the hearts of men , which is the Temple unto which God will come and dwell in , for the Lord , whom you seek , will suddainly come to his Temple , and there sit as a Refiner and Purisier of silver , and will take away his drosse and tyn , and try them as gold is tried , therefore he saith , he will send the Spirit , and he shall convince the world of sin , of righteousnesse , and judgement , and when the Lord doth so come to judgement , then shall everie mans book be opened , and they shall be judged according to the things written in their books , which books are the consciences of men bearing witnesse , either for them , or against them , accusing , or else excusing one another , in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ , according to his Gospel ; and this is the manner of the Lords proceeding to judgement in the day of the Gospel , which to the Lord is but as one day , though thousand of years .

Head a Lawyer said , This is damnable Doctrine , what need a coming to judgement , if all shall be saved , you are a Blasphemer , and destroyes the Fundamentals of Religion by your impudency .

Coppin .

Though all men shall be saved , yet not without judgment : But Sir , I perceive you are a Lawyer , & it may be hath a fee given you , then plead Law for it , the Gospel allowes of none , but though you may know the Law better then I , it may be I may know the Gospel as well as you , and you see I have declared a judgement according to the Gospel , and have proved it all along , if you understand it , and if any man can prove any other Judgement day besides this which I have proved , let him declare it .

And I also prove , that this Judge the Lord Jesus doth accuse no man , but he that is the accuser of the brethren , is the devil , who shall be cast out , and his accusation made void , for man , while he lives under the law , lives under wrath , and is accused by the law , but when the Lord Jesus comes to any soul , as a Judg , to fulfill the law , he declares himself accused and condemned for that soule , and so frees him from the law , and quiteth him of the accusation , and now Christ accuseth not , but Moses ; and yet , saith he , You will not come to me , that you may have life , but though you receive another that comes in his own name , father then me that comes in my Fathers name , yet doe not think that I will accuse you to the Father , no , but there is one that doth accuse you , even Moses , in whom you trust .

Rosewell .

John 5. is meant , Christ will not accuse them to the Father ; yet Christ doth accuse them which doth oppose his Gospel , and will doe it , and will throw them to the nethermost hell , at the last day , in everlasting torment , soul and body ; and therefore I desire you all , as you tender the glory of God , and the good , of your own souls , have a care of such a dangerous blasphemer as this , which in such a high nature doth blaspheme the great God of heaven , Isa. 26. Thy hand is lifted up , and they will not see it , but they shall see it , and be ashamed for their envie at the people ; the fire of thy enemies shall devoure their persons at the last day .

Coppin .

You may apply this unto your self , for your own envie that hath appeared at this , and other times ; but doe you bring this to prove destruction of persons eternally at the last day , which is no such thing here meant .

Rosewell .

I doe confesse a Spirituall Judgment Day .

Coppin .

That have I affirmed all this while , for the which you crie out against me to be a blasphemer , &c.

Rosewell .

But there is another day of judgment , which will be at the last day .

Coppin .

Pray doe you prove a second day of judgment , you have confest the first , which I proved to you , and I denie not your second , if you can prove it to me also , prove the destruction of persons , as you say .

Rosewell .

Faelix did tremble when he did heare of judgment to come .

Coppin .

This judgment was to come on him then , and is to come on all now , on whom it hath not yet appeared for the destruction of sin .

Rosewell .

It doth appear there is no such judgment known unto you , Jude 15. but the Lord will come visibly , as a man from heaven , and all his Saints with him , to sit upon his Throne , and to execute judgment , and to convince all that are ungodly .

Coppin .

You should declare where this place of Judgment is , and when it is , and what this Throne is on which he sits .

Rosewell .

I will not tell you , you shall know it when it doth come , and therefore cease to pervert Scripture .

Coppin .

I do not at all judg or condemn you for speaking your judgment in what things you know , though you do judg me , for you can but speak as you have received , according to your measure , and so do I.

Rosewell .

He doth mainly labour to deny any Judgment to come on any mans person .

Coppin .

I tell you again , I denie nothing which you can prove to be true , it is your work now to prove this Judgment Day you speak of , as I have done mine .

Rosewell .

There is a Hell of fire and brimstone for ever .

Coppin .

You would do well to prove what you mean by it , now before this people .

Rosewell .

You have here said that Christ was a sinner .

Coppin .

You said these words , I never said them , but said , that he was in himself holie , harmlesse , just , and good .

Rosewell .

You said the nature he did take was sinful , and you have denied the Resurrection of the Body , and do affirm , that all men shall be saved .

Coppin .

It is a sign there is no more in you to declare , because you go over with the same things again , and again ; But how are you assured of your own salvation , tell me that ?

Rosewell .

I do believe he hath saved me , and that one day he will do it .

Coppin .

If he hath done it alreadie , then it is no more to do , and it is better to believe that you are saved , then that you shall be saved .

CHAP. XIII . The practise of Magistrates and Ministers discovered , how they one uphold another , to serve not the Lord , but themselves . ROsewell .

I hope those things need not proof , they are so clear to every intelligible man , I desire that we may be all humbled for these things , and I desire to have nothing to do any more with this man , except I shall be called to it before a Magistrate , or the like , and then I shall labour to the utmost to vindicate the truth of God , and in my Preaching and Catechistical Exercises , I shall endeavour to meet with those damnable errours of his : And by the way , take notice of those which do sow errours among you , they be such as serve not the Lord Jesus , but their owne bellies , Rom. 16. 17. 18. Mark them which cause divisions , and avoid them . Now when men shall teach a Doctrine contrary to what the Church of God hath received in all Ages , and contrary to the judgment of hundreds in this place , which are juditious , we may account him a Blasphemer , he hath blasphemy in his forehead , woe be to them which testifie lies in the name of the Lord .

Coppin .

I shall return this back on your own head , and thereby kill Golia with his own Sword , from these words , Rom. 16. Mark them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the Doctrine of Christ , and avoid them , for they are such who serve not the Lord Jesus , but their own bellies . Now let the people judge who they are , for which consider , that the Doctrine of Christ is a Doctrine of unitie , love , joy , and peace , amongst men , but some there are who have caused divisions , and offences , railings , and revilings , at this and other meetings , now and at other times , contrarie to this Doctrine of Christ , and who those are , I appeale to the people , as for my part , I know no man I have wronged amongst you , nor spoke evil of any , but in love to the Lord , the truth , and your soules ; I have onelie defended my selfe in the truth I delivered , it being so failed against .

Rosewell .

Capt. Smith , Let 's conclude , there will be no end .

Coppin .

I must speak a little more , therefore observe , they which preach for hire and lucre of worldly profit , serve not Christ , but their bellies , not the people , but themselves ; See Micah 3. 5. 6. 7. Thus saith the Lord , concerning the Prophets , that make my people erre , that bite with their teeth , and cry peace , and he that puteth not into their mouthes , they even prepare warre against him , therefore night shall be unto you , that you shall not have a vision , and it shall be dark unto you , that you shall not divine , and the Sun shall goe downe over the Prophets , and the day shall be dark over them , then shall the Seers be ashamed , and the Diviners confounded , yea , they shall all cover their lips , for there is no answer of God : The Prophets are the Priests , the Seers are the Magistrates , and those joyn together , one to keep up another , till the one shall be ashamed , and the other confounded , and so fall together .

Rosewell .

But read the 10. 11. verses , They build up Sion with blood , and Jerusalem with iniquitie , the Heads thereof judg for reward , and the Priests thereof teach for hire , and the Prophets divine for money .

Coppin .

Truly I need not read it , you have read it for me , and it fits you well , the Seers and Heads thereof judg for reward , and you the Priests divine for money , and if they will not pay you , then prepare warre against them , sue them at the Law , have them before Magistrates , and cast them into prison , as you doe , and have done , and so serve not the Lord , but your own lusts , and for ten pound advancement in one place more then in another , you will sell any people , or Parish ; for which take one Scripture more , 2 Pet. 2. 1 But there shall be false teachers among you , who privily shall bring in damnable heresies , denying the Lord that bought them , ( ye them that denie him ) and bring upon themselves swift destruction , and many shall follow their pernicious wayes , by reason of whom the truth shall be evill spoken of , and through covetousness shall they with fained words , make merchandize of you ( sell you for profit ) whose judgment of long time lingereth not , and their damnation slumbereth not , and are not those your Tythe-mongers , I shall leave to you all to judg ?

French .

Doe you speak this by me , we have seldom halfe our Tythes paid us .

Coppin .

What are ye guiltie ? Do your conscience accuse you ? I name no man , but the Priests teach for hire , they bear rule by reason of their means , and let the people , who love to have it so , judg who they be .

Rosewell .

I blesse God I am guiltlesse of this thing , of preaching for hire ; but you do see many errours have been broached here , let me crave liberty for one word of prayer , and I have done .

DISPUTE . IV. Began by William Sanbroke Minister , and carried on by Walter Rosewell Minister , against Richard Coppin , in the Cathedral of the City of Rochester , in the County of Kent , December 13.

CHAP. XIV . What is a Gospel Message , and what is not , that damnation to mankind is not eternal , how the Gospel is preached to every creature , by whom , and when . SAnbroke .

You know the businesse of this time is to state a question , about the great businesse of Salvation , and Damnation , and I shall fall briefly do the businesse in hand .

Question .

Whether such persons , meaning the Priests , and namely such of them as tell people of damnation , be evil spirits or no , as you did hint the last day ; I shall now give you the History of this Question : It is a rule in the Schools , that when any one will begin a question , that it is necessary they do first dive into the original and bottom of such a question , to see whether it runs , and to what it tends ; but this is a question I did never know till these times of ours , in this later Ages , in which we have shuffled our selves out of a Church-form , Episcopacy to Presbytery , from thence to Independency , from Independency to Anabaptisme , from Anabaptisme to Seeking , from Seeking to Vniversal Liberty , and so we have lost our selves we know not where : 1. We will see what is meant by Damnation , and that is in the Word , signified to be either temporal or eternal : 2. What is the evil spirit , and that is in opposition to the good spirit , that is the devil : 3. Consider the persons which he doth say are evil , and they are the Priests ; now this word Priests was put into the Original Copy , those are the Ministers of the Gospel lawfully called by God and men , and setled , by laying on of hands , and the Spirit , into a Congregation . Now that Proposition that doth affirm , that the Ministers which do tell people of damnation are evil spirits , he must of necessity be a Blasphemer ; That Proposition that doth say Christ is an evil spirit , that is blasphemy , ergo : For Christ did preach this Doctrine , He that believes shall be saved , he that believes not , shall be damned .

Coppin .

Your question is far fetcht , and to little purpose , and I shall answer you thus , That those Ministers that do preach the Doctrine of Damnation , telling people they are eternallie damned , are no Gospel Ministers , and do preach from an evil Spirit ; but Christ did not preach this Doctrine of Eternal Damnation to any , for he did preach salvation to all men , and the acceptable year of the Lord , For he came not to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved .

Sanbroke .

Mat. 23. 14. Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees , Hypocrites , how will you escape the damnation of hell , and therefore you shall receive the greater damnation .

Coppin .

Christ was then a fulfilling the Law , which the Scribes and Pharisees did exercise upon the people , as a burthen too heavie for them to bear , for which several woes of damnation were pronounced against them , and to be fulfilled upon them in that generation ; and Christ speaks not of eternal damnation , but of degrees of damnation , as of greater , and lesser , that should come upon them for their hypocrisie among the people , and their not believing the glad tidings of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God , which Christ told them was to be revealed in them , and which would suddainlie come unto them , yea them in that generation to whom damnation was then threatened ; and they hearing of this , demanded of Christ the time when the Kingdome of God should come , for which they then waited and hoped for , and Christ answer'd and said , The Kingdom of God comes not with observations , neither shall they say lo here , or lo there , for behold the Kingdome of God is within you , yea , within you Scribes and Pharisees , though you shut it up against your selves , and others , which many people also now do , for which their judgment of long time lingereth not , and their damnation slumbereth not , but is so much the sooner , and the greater unto them .

And therefore that forenamed place you quoted , to prove the Doctrine of Damnation , cannot be meant of eternal Damnation , since he tells them , The Kingdome of God is within them : And this , saith he , is life eternal , to know God , the true God , and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent ; therefore how doth this prove your Proposition , you say , they were finallie damned , and yet Christ tells them , the Kingdome of God was within them .

Sanbroke .

Were they Believers , or Vnbelievers ?

Coppin .

They were then Unbelievers , not knowing the Kingdome of God to be within them , and therefore did oppose it , but your Schools will never teach you this lesson of knowing Christ within you , which will confound all the wisdome and knowledge you there learn , for in the School of men you learn the things of men , but in the Schools of Christ the things of Christ ; and you shall never learn this mysterie of Christ in you , till you become Christs Scholar .

Sanbroke .

How long doth this Damnation last on them ?

Coppin .

So long as they do continue unbelievers ?

Sanbroke .

You do not understand the Text .

Coppin .

You will never say that I , or any man else , do understand in , but your selves , unlesse they would understand it in your sense , for you would have people learn no farther then you teach them , but God will destroy all the teachings of men .

Sanbroke .

But if Christ did give his Ministers a Commission to preach Damnation , then it is good and sound Doctrine so to do , and they are not evil Spirits which do it , as you do say .

Coppin .

But Christ did not give any such Commission to any of his Ministers that he sent forth to preach the Gospel , to preach Damnation , neither did they do it , nor did I say so by them , but by those that run , and were not sent by him , of which I also said somthing to this purpose in a book of mine , called , Truths Testimony , from whence I suppose you had those words , but produce but the book , and I will warrant you there is an answer to it , sufficient to prove it .

Sanbroke .

Indeed I had one of the books , but I burnt it , but to the Proposition , Christ bids his Ministers preach the Gospel to every creature , He that believes shall be saved , and he that believes not shall be damned .

Coppin .

But pray mark you , Christ doth bid his Discipies go into all the world , and preach the Gospel to everie creature , which is life and salvation to all by Christ , and not damnation to any , but salvation to everie creature , and he that believes not this Doctrine , hath damnation in himself alreadie ; and this Gospel was to be preached after Christ was risen from the dead , and had compleatlie fulfilled the Law , which before did condemn them : Now , saith he , Go preach that Gospel of peace , and of reconciliation to to everie creature in the world , that God is in me , reconciling them all to himself , for now am I risen to be the life and light of all men , and you are not to preach death and damnation , but that I am come , who is their life and salvation ; and this is their condemnation , that I am come , saith Christ , and they believe it not , or that this Gospel is preached , and men receive it not .

And now do I question whether some of you have received this Gospel Commission from Christ yet or no , and do preach the same Gospel , for the same end , after the same manner as they did , for he bids his Disciples preach the Gospel , which will save men , and you preach the Law , which will condemn men ; their salvation by Christ without works , and you damnation without works , they preach it to everie creature , and freelie , and you preach it but to some , and for hire , and so instead of preaching unitie , peace , and love amongst men , you preach division , wrath , and eternal damnation , which is no Gospel message , and such are in no Gospel way , have no Gospel Ministerie committed unto them , and therefore no Commission from Christ to preach .

Rosewell .

If the Gospel be to be Preached to every creature , then it must be Preached to stocks and stones , for they are creatures .

Coppin .

Such things are not capable of hearing and receiving the sound thereof , but to every man , to every rationall creature , the Gospel was to be Preached , and is Preached , and the sound thereof hath been heard amongst them , to all the ends of the earth .

Sanbroke .

The time shall come , that the Gospel shall be Preached to all men , and they shall all heare of this Gospel .

Coppin .

But when shall they have it Preached say you , I say 't is Preached to all the world already .

Sanbroke .

I deny it .

Coppin .

I prove it , Col. 1. 6. The Gospel which we Preach , saith the Apostle , is the same which is come unto you , as it is in all the world , and , saith he , be not removed away from the hope of the Gospel which you have heard , and which was Preached to every creature in the world , which is under Heaven , whereof I Paul am made a Minister ; yea , of that Gospel which was Preached , and which is Preached , which is Christ in you the hope of Glory , Christ the Wisdom and Power of God in every creature , as almost all this Chapter doth testifie .

Sanbroke .

To what purpose doe you bring this Scripture .

Coppin .

I bring it to prove , that whereas you say all men should have the Gospel Preached to them , but you know not when , I tell you , it hath been Preached already , is Preached , and will be Preached , so long as there is a God to be manifested , it being as everlasting as Christ , and this I have proved by plaine Text of Scripture .

Sanbroke .

That which hath been done already , that is not to be done hereafter , but you say the Gospel hath been Preached already to all men , ergo .

Coppin .

There is nothing done now , nor to be done , but what hath been done already , so saith Solomon , That which hath been , is that which shall be , and there is no new thing under the Sun ; and Christ who is himself the Gospel , and the Gospel-Preacher , is the same yesterday , to day , and for ever ; and upon this Sanbroke gave off the dispute , and Rosewell succeeded .

CHAP. XV . The Whore of Babylons rage , with her names of blasphemy against the truth , her seat and work discovered . ROsewell .

I am sorry I must take my learned Brothers place , for I did not come here to day to speak , but to be a hearer , nor shall I desire to enter into discourse any more with this man , except the Magistrates shall call me to it , it is to no purpose , he doth but insinuate into the people , to get a party for himself , therefore as a Minister of Jesus Christ , I desire to give the people satisfaction to all that love the truth : I could say much more for my learned Brother , and I do pity him that his strength failed him , if he had his lungs and his ears as this man have , he would be able to deal with him , but I thank God I have another opportunity to speak to the people .

Coppin .

You will rail now as you did before , and that is all you can say .

Rosewell .

I do not speak to you , I speak to the people , and to the Magistrates and Officers of the Souldiers , if they will give me leave , to speak to something which slipped without answer the other day , when as he had most falsly introduced many places of Scripture , and wrested them notoriously to serve his own turn , to prove that all should be saved , tag and rag , and all , then he goes on to affirm that this Doctrine of the love of God , is the onely means to keep people from sining , and to provoke to an holy walking , and if I do not overthrow this , then I desire never to be believed more , and though God can cast both body and soul into hell , yet he tells you , that God will destroy no mans person , but their sins that onely shall be destroyed , this Doctrine is quite against the whole bock of Scripture , from the beginning to the end , there are some said to be beloved of God , and some hated , Jacob have I loved , and Esau have I hated , this is spoken of persons ; indeed the Doctrine of the love of God in Christ is excellent to some , but not to be preached to all , but to onely the vessells of mercy ; but now to say that God hath an equal love to all mankinde , one as well as another , tag and rag , to unbelievers , as well as believers , to them which never had the Spirit of Faith and of Grace , to tell an Adulterer and a Drunkard , that notwithstanding his whoredomes and drunkennesse , yet he shall be saved as well as the best , this is abominable doctrine and blasphemy against the true meaning of the Holy Ghost in Scripture , and is no better then the doctrine of devils ; and we have another sort of people which come not far short of this man , namely , the maintainers of Vniversal Redemption , for if all be redeemed by Christ , undoubtedly all must be saved ; but I have done , only one word more .

Coppin .

Pray Sir let me speak as well as you , for though you said you would not direct your discourse to me , yet exspect an answer from me .

Captain Smith .

Let him have done , and we will promise you to speak .

Rosewell .

This man did say the last day I was an enemy to the State , the more to insinuate into the hearts of the people ; I do believe it will be taken notice of by some in this present Government , that it will be much to their dishonor , to discourage a faithful godly Minister , and to countenance such a Blasphemer , who is an enemy to the States , by his Preaching Blasphemy , Acts 17. 10. 11. I may say to you , as Paul did to Elimos the Sorcerer , Wilt thou cease to pervert the Word of God , and the waies of God .

Coppin .

Friends and Brethren , this man said he had nothing to say to me , and yet his whole discourse hath been of me , and raising against me , but I know from whence all railings and revilings , and the calling of truth blasphemie doth proceed , in Rev. 17. 3. You shall read there of a woman siting upon a Scarlet-coloured Beast , full of the names of Blasphemie ; this woman , is that Whore of Babylon , the Mother of Harlots , siting on this Beast , as on many waters , decking and triming her selfe with mens pretended forms of Religion , having her mouth full of the names of Blasphemie , calling all things blasphemie and heresie which is not in her way , and like her self , and this hath been in all Ages her work , to advance her own honor , pride , and self righteousnesse , above the truths of the Lord Jesus , in which truth is unitie , peace , and love towards all men , but in this Whore there is no such thing , for from whence hath all those divisions , railings , and persecutions risen , but from this Sea of troubled waters on which the Whore siteth , for in her was found the blood of the Saints , and the blood of the Martyrs of Jesus , which hath alwaies suffered under this notion of blasphemie , and so the carnal world , and blind righteous Scribes and Pharisees said of Christ , that he was a Blasphemer , a mad-man , a devil , nay , the Prince of Devils ; and great Deceiver of mankind , and why hear you him , said they , and so he was put to death as a Blasphemer and Deluder of the people , though in his mouth was found no guile ; but because by his Doctrine the people were drawn away from the world to believe in him , yet in all this you do not find that Christ nor his Apostles thus suffering for the truth , did ever rail against any of them that were instrumen●s of their sufferings , for they did well know , as I do , through the wisdome of Christ , that all men did speak and act as they knew , and were acted , and so left them and all things to him , who would glorifie himself in all things that himself doth .

And whereas he was pleased to say I would be found an enemie to this present Government , let any man judge what I have spoken or acted at any time against this present Government , but I shall prove that he hath , for he that shall oppose , contend against , or speak evil of any Law , or thing contained in this present Government , he is an enemie to it , but this man Mr. Rosewell doth contend against , speak evil of , and stand in opposition to that freedome and libertie of the people , in the exercise of their Religion towards God , which this present Government doth allow them , therefore is he an enemie to the present Government , which I prove ; for the Lord Protector in his Instrument of Government , signed by him in the Year fifty three , doth declare , That all persons professing Faith in God by Jesus Christ , though they differ in judgement from the Doctrine , Worship , or Discipline publikely held forth , shall not be restrained from , but protected in the exercise of their Faith , and practise of their Religion , so far as it extends not to Popery and Prelacy , nor to the disturbance of the Publike Peace , nor licentious practises : To all which your judgment have extended , and therefore this libertie do you oppose , and speak evil of , as the people all may witnesse .

CHAP. XVI . The return of all men home to God by Christ , the broad and narrow way , and who finds it ; that the Doctrine of Gods love in saving all men , is the only means to keep men from sin .

AGain , whereas you did declare , that this Doctrine of the love of God to all men , did give way to licentiousnesse and wickednesse , I denie , and this I have before sufficientlie cleared to you in these Disputes , that it is the onlie means to keep them from sin , and this was that which Christ did command his Disciples to declare to all the world for that end , even Gods eternal love in Christ to poor sinners , as the way and means that God had appointed to bring home to him all that were banished from him , according as 't is written , 2 Sam. 14. 14. For we must needs die , and are as water spilt upon the ground , which cannot be gathered up again , neither doth God respect any person , yet doth he devise means that his banished be not expel'd from him ; and this way and means is the Lord Jesus , who was set up from everlasting , to be the way , the truth , and the light , yea , a witnesse , a Leader and a Commander to all people , that when we were enemies to him by wicked works , and so dead in sins and trespasses , yet then did God in his Son reconcile us all to himself , and made us accepted in the beloved Jesus , that as there was a broad way in which all men did fall from God , and did become strangers to God , so there is also a narrow way , and a living way , even Christ himself , in which all men shall come to God again , and indeed there is but few , a verie small number that can finde this way , nay , so few , that it is but onlie one , and that is God in Christ , who is himself , as a Son , the way to himself , as the Father , which none can know or find , but himself , for so it is written , That no man knows the Son , but the Father , nor no man knows the Father but the Son , and he to whom the Son shall reveal him ; and so there is but onlie one , even Christ in all men , that is the way for all men to come to God by . You read of ten Lepers that were cleansed , and but one which did returne to give glorie to God , then said Christ , Where are the other nine ? Now they were all cleansed , and but one that saw it , and he glorified God , and that one was Christ in him that did see it , that gave glorie to God for him , and all the rest that were cleansed , and so there is none but Jesus Christ that can glorifie God in all , or that can trulie pray and give thanks to God for all , for he onlie is accepted of the Father , and all men , as one in him , are accepted of the Father with him , for he that sanctifieth , and they who are sanctified , are all of one , for which cause he is not ashamed to call them Brethren , and that he might gather together in one all things in Christ , of things in heaven , and things on earth ; even in him , and I in them , and thou in me ( saith Christ ) that we all may be made perfect in one .

Rosewell .

Captain Smith , will you let him go on any further .

Captain Smith .

We cannot deny him , he will claime a promise for it .

Coppin .

Hear I beseech you , for I am now declaring the gathering together of all men in Christ to be by him brought home to the Father , and therefore mark what the Scripture saith , I will , saith Christ , seek that which was lost , and bring again that which was driven away , and will bind up that which was broken , and will strengthen that which was sick , and so bring them health and cure , and I will cure them , and will cause their captivity to return , and will build them up as at the first , and so cleanse them from all iniquitie .

Now that all men sined , fell , and were lost in Adam , none will denie , because the Scripture saith it ; but that all men that sined , and were lost in Adam , shall again be redeemed and made righteous by Christ , that you call blasphemie , though proved by the same Scripture and let the people judg who perverts Scripture of us two ; Christ tells you , he came to seek and to save that which was lost , then as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive , yea , the same all that were lost in the one , are found in the other ; and the Lord Jesus did declare himselfe to all men for this purpose , and did pray for them which were enemies to him , and had imbrued their hands in his blood , Father forgive them they know not what they do , and my little children , saith John , these things I write unto you , that you sin not ; and if any man sin , we have an Advocate with the Father , Jesus Christ the righteous , who is a Propitiation for our sins , and not for ours only , but for the sins of the whole world ; and this , saith Paul , is good and acceptable to God the Father , who will have all men to be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth , woe , but will God have all men saved , and will he save all that was lost ? woe , but man will not have it so , for he would have but some of them saved , though the Lord saith , he will have all ; and now for shame say no more , that Coppin onlie will have all men saved , but say also that the Lord will have all men saved , since the Scripture is so clear for it ; and then Lord who hath resisted thy will , Lord let thy will be done , for of thee , and through thee , and to thee , are all things .

Rosewell .

He saith all men shall be saved , but doth not know when .

Coppin .

I say in due time it shall be manifest to all , for there is but the want of faith in men to believe it , which is the substance of things hoped for , and the evidence of things not seen , by which all men are assured , and draw nigh unto God , which in due time shall be manifest to all men .

Now if this Spirit of Faith , and faithfull Witness , the Lord Jesus , thus manifest in men for the salvation of their soules , will not keep men from licentiousness , there is nothing will , for which seriously consider the Apostles words , in Titus 2. 11. We were wicked and sinfull , saith he , as well as others , but when the grace of God , which bringeth salvation to all men , had appeared to us , teaching us , that denying all ungodliness , and worldly lusts , we should live soberly and righteously in this present world , speaking evill of no man , for we our selves also were sometimes foolish , disobedient , deceived , serving divers lusts and pleasures , living in malice and envie , and hating one another as well as others , but after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared , not by works of righteousness , which we have done , but according to his mercie he saved us , how , why by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the holy Ghost , and so saith Peter , see that you lay aside all malice , guile , and hipocrisies and envyings , and evill speakings , and as new born babes desire the sincere milk of the Word , that you may grow thereby , if so be you hav● tasted that the Lord is gracions .

CHAP. XVII . The complaint of Ministers to Magistrates , against those that Preach without Orders from the Vniversitie , the dutie of Magistrates not to forbid any , but to reprove such complainers .

AGaine , you say , you would have men learn and study the Scriptures , but not to Preach of them , but sure that is for feare your trade of Preaching should goe downe , and you to keep it up , will cry out to the Magistrates , to forbid and suppress all that declare any thing of the love of God to their soules , and have not the like Orders from the Universities as you have , concerning which , read Numbers 11. there was Moses a Magistrate of the Lord , and the Lord commanded him to gather unto him seventy of the men of Israell , to assist him in the work of the Lord , and to bring them up to the Tabernacle where they should receive the Spirit , and to prophesie . Now there were two men which did not come up to the Tabernacle as the rest did , but tarried behind in the Camp , and there received the Spirit , and Prophesied , whereof complaint was made to Moses of them saying , Eldad and Medad doe Prophesie , in the Camp , my Lord Moses forbid them ; why , saith Moses , enviest thou , for my sake , I would all the Lords people were Prophets , and that he would powre his Spirit upon them , though they came not up to the Tabernacle , yet having the Spirit , let them prophesie .

So now if any man do declare any thing of God , which hath not been at the Universitie , woe , he is immediatelie cried out against to the Magistrate as a blasphemer , to be forbidden , but God is not tied to place nor persons , nor learning , it is not your your Schools will make you Ministers of the Gospel , no , it is the Spirit of the Lord that doth make a Minister of the Gospel , and it was the Spirit that made Christ a Minister , for , saith he , the Spirit of the Lord is upon me , therefore will I preach glad tydings of the Gospel , and as everie man hath received the Spirit , so let them administer without any forbiding .

Now you Magistrates , you are set up for the punishment of evill doers , and for the praise of them that doe well , but are you like that godly man Moses , a Magistrate of the Lords , to discern the good which is to be praised , and the evill which is to be punished , and so to doe justice and righteousness , to countenance Godliness , if you were , you would fordid none to Preach that speaks their experience of the things of God , but would incourage all men ; and wish all the Lords people were Prophets , and that he would powre his Spirit upon them , and so like Moses , reprove any that would have them forbid , and then you would appear to be Magistrates of the Lord , as Moses was , and to doe the worke of God as Moses did , for which the Lord instruct ▪ you all .

CHAP. XVIII . A childs condition is Christs Kingdome , their coming to him , his hand laid on them , they blessed by him , of his arm to all men , and when .

AGaine , there is one thing more , which you have said , and that I must open , That is ; you say that thousands of Children are now in hell for their originall sin , which is a trouble to many people to heare such things asserted , therefore what the Lord may discover to me at this time concerning this thing , that will I declare to you ; That when the Lord Jesus would declare unto his disciples , who were subjects fit for the Kingdome of God , he takes a little child in his armes , and sets him in the midst of them , saying , except you become , as this child , you cannot enter into the Kingdome of Heaven , that is , to become a child in the knowledg of things below Christ , to know no more sin nor divell then a child doth , and to be as meek and as humble , as innocent and as harmlesse as a child is , now Christ tells them , they must be borne againe into a childs condition , that is , to be little . even as nothing in their owne wisdome , and not to know themselves , able to act themselves forth in any thing ; neither in thought , word , or deed , but in all things to be acted by another , even God , and this Spirituall birth , Nicodemus , a Ruler among the Jewes , was ignorant of ▪ saying unto Christ , How can a man be borne when he is old , can he enter the second time into his Mothers womb , and be born , no , saith Christ , not so , but except you be borne of the Spirit , of Regeneration , and the new birth and so become as a little child to know no evill , sin , nor divell , nor any thing of selfe wisdome , knowledge , or righteousness which he was concieved in by that Mother , the flesh , or carnall mind , but to be as one dead in all old things borne by that Mother , and liveing againe in a new life , to behold all things made new in him , and Christ knew that a little child was the fitest subject he could compare a soule unto , whereby he might know himselfe a subject fit for the Kingdome of God , free from all sin .

Againe , there were some that brought little children unto Christ , that he should touch them , and his Disciples reproved those that brought them , and Christ said suffer little children to come unto me , and forbid them not , for of such is the Kingdome of God , this Scripture I know is brought by the Ministers to prove the baptizeing of children with water , though I denie it not to them that are free to do it , though here were none of them baptized by Christ , for he baptized not , but his Disciples , and they baptized no children , but onely such persons as would then be under Johns administration of water , which was onely to last Johns time , and then to be made void , and people did thinke then , as some doe now , that unlesse their children did recieve baptisme , they shall not inherit the Kingdome of God , therefore would say , Oh give them that they come for , lest they should die before they had it ; Now , saith Christ , who will forbid a little child that he should not inherit the Kingdome of God , I say let such come to me , for of such is the Lords Kingdom , and they come to me as to their Saviour , their Lord , and Master , therefore forbid them not , though they were never baptized with water , for they are subjects already , fited for the Kingdome of God , as a Kingdome of righteousness , meekness , truth and love , having in them no unrighteousness , as pride , lying , and hatred , but they , like Christ , doe know noe sin , being not borne in sin , till they have the knowledg thereof , and oh that all men were become such children , free from all sin , and so receive the Kingdome of God as a little child .

Againe , he took them up in his armes , laid his hands on them , and blessed them , and this he did to let the people know that they are the blessed of the Lord , and that they are within the compass of his armes , as being never out , but always lodging in his bosom of goodness , mercy , love and favour , as being heires of his Kingdome .

And of this arme , God saith , all the day long have I stretthed it forth , to a disobedient and gainsaying people , to bring them to this state of a little child , into meekness and love , from sin and rebellion , and when this hand of the Lord shall thus come to be laid on any of you , then shall you be as a weaned child from the brest of your owne haughtie and laughtie Spirit by which you were nursed up into the state of rebellion against God , and of this the Prophet saith , who hath belived our report ? and to whom is the arme of the Lord revealed ? speaking of Jesus Christ , the arme of God , that took from us all our sins and laid upon himselfe , as 't is written , he hath laid on him the iniquities of us all , and by which arme Daniel when he lay with his face on the ground , was raised up upon the knees and palmes of his hands , and from thence to stand upright upon his feet , and when he knew it was by the hand of the Lord , he stood trembling , that is , all things of himselfe trembled in himselfe , when he stood upright in the Lord .

Now when this hand is laid on you , and doe but touch you the first and second time , which is the first and second coming of Christ in manifestation to the soule , then shall you stand upright in the Lord , and be for none but the Lord , and saith Christ , feare not , for I have the keyes of the house of David , which is Heaven , and I have the keyes of death and of hell , and I can open , and none can shut , and shut , and none can open , therefore feare none of those things which thou shalt suffer , for behold , saith Christ , I know thy works and tribulation , and the divell shall cast some of you into prison , that you may be tryed , and you shall have tribulation for a time , but be thou faithfull unto death , and I will give thee a Crowne of life , therefore feare nor , for I having the keyes , will not suffer you to be shut up any longer then I please , but will break open prisons , and prison doores , saith the Lord , and all this is done by his laying his hand upon us , and blessing of us , therefore henceforth judg charitably of all men in all conditions ; and no more judge any childe to condemnation that knowes no sin nor Devil , but rather this , that the Lords mercy is over all his works , and will lose nothing of his own .

Rosewell .

I desire to have no more to do with this man , you see I hope what his aime and end is in all his discourse : You say we would hide knowledge from the people , but I wish all men did know as much of good as I doe , provided I did know no lesse then I doe ; and I have taken a great deal of pains in my private Studies , and publique endeavours , for that knowledge I have , and if I know any easier way , I would spare my paines : You labour to bring all men off from our principles of Religion , therefore know there is many hundreds of able Ministers , and thousands of good Christians , which are furnished with arguments against you , and all the Jesuites in the world , for my part I am not worthy to carry their books after many of them , and I say you are a shame to the world , and the Turks and Papists may laugh at us to see our division in our Church , and I would not have this Auditorie juggled out of their Faith ; and if any man hath given any incouragement to such a Blasphemer as this is , let them be humbled for it , and do so no more , and I shall Preach against it to my utmost endeavour , for he doth overthrow all Ordinances of Baptisme , and Sacraments , which our Antient Fathers have used , which he saith are not necessarie to salvation since Christ ; and so is an enemy to God , Psalme 21. 8. I will end with this , Thine hand shall finde out thy enemies that hate thee , thou shalt make them as a fiery Oven in the time of thine anger , the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath , and the fire of hell shall devoure them .

CHAP. XIX . Of Baptism , how man is a fiery Oven , of the fire and fuel that is to be burnt , the Oven cleansed , man living in it , and how . COppin .

That which I declare concerning Baptisme ; is that they have no ground from the Lord Jesus Christ , by precept nor example , to baptize with water .

Gaman a Anabaptist .

Let me speak now a word or two , because you deny all Water-Baptisme .

Coppin .

Pray let me make an end with one first , and then if you have any thing to say , speak on , but I say Baptisme with water , upon any subject , hath no ground from Christ , whether by example nor command to be used , since the Death of John , being then fulfil'd by Christ ; and yet I denie it to none , whose tender conscience doth desire it , for I am become all to all , that I win them to the truth , as it is in Jesus , through my love to them , and the manifestation of Christ in them .

Rosewell .

Capt. Smith , Pray let 's have done .

Robison .

I think you will never have done .

Coppin .

So far as you speak I must answer , and there is one thing more , therefore pray have patience , for I must answer to this Scripture by him hinted in Psalm 21. 8. 9. Thine hand shall finde out all thine enemies , thy right hand shall finde out those that hate thee ; thou shalt make them as a fiery Oven in the time of thine anger , the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath , and the fire shall devoure them : There is no man so wicked , nor so righteous in himself , but the Lord will find him out , and will make him as an Oven , in which he will kindle his fire ; to burn up the briers and thorns , to wit , mans sins and iniquities which man is full of , and against which the fire of his anger is revealed , that he may devoure them , but not man , for all mans works shall be burnt , and he himself shall be saved , so as by fire , as it is written , Jacob have I loved , and Esau have I hated , though they tumbled both in one bellie , Jacob is the good , even the spirit ; Esau is the evil , even the flesh , and everie one hath this Jacob and Esau within them for a time ; but Esau which is flesh , shall be burnt by Jacob which is the spirit , the flesh shall be destroyed , but the spirit saved , and so saith the Lord , the house of Jacob shall be a fire , and the house of Esau shall be for stubble , and they shall kindle in them , and devoure them , and there shall be nothing left of the house of Esau , for the Lord hath spoken it , and anger is not in me , saith the Lord , against the persons of men , but if they set briers and thorns in my way against me , I will pass through them , and burn them up , by this shall the iniquitie of Jacob be purged , and this shall be the fruit thereof , to take away their sins , that the Lord may dwell therein , and saith the Prophet , I saw the Lord upon his Throne high , and lifted up , and his Train fill'd the Temple , and behold an Angel came with a live coal in his hand , which he had from the Altar , and he laid it on my mouth , and said , Loe this hath touched thy lips , and thine iniquitie is taken away , and thy sin is purged ; so God is said to sit in his Temple man-like , a Refiner of silver , to purge away the dross and tyn , and to destroy all together for ever . But while this fire is a kindling in man , so long is man full of the smoak thereof , that he is not able to look into his own Temple , to behold the glory of the Lord , until his indignation be overpast , and so it is written , the Temple was filled with smoak from the glorie of God , and from his power , and no man was able to enter into the Temple , till the seven Plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled , and then his wrath being over , the fire being quenched , his sins purged , and the Oven ( man ) being cleansed of all the fuel and the ashes , he shall return into his Tabernacle in peace , he shall visit his habitation , and shall not sin , he shall not be afraid to look into his own heart , but shall possesse himself with joy , and with peace , for all sin and iniquitie shall be done away , and then the Lord alone shall be exalted in his owne Temple man , and man in the Lord , for ever and ever .

Captaine Harrison .

Is there any man without sin ? Paul saith ; He was compassed with a bodie of sin and death .

Coppin .

The bodie of sin and death was to be destroyed , and he to be without sin , and though Paul was sanctified and justified in the spirituall part or new man , yet he was subject to sin , so far as he was in the flesh , as all men are , which is still waring against the spirit , till the spirit hath overcome it .

Gaman .

Let me speak now , &c.

Coppin .

Let him speak .

Robison .

We cannot stay , I have no patience .

Coppin .

Then the Lord grant you patience , if you have none .

Captaine Smith .

You had better take a day to your selfe , Mr. Gaman .

Gaman .

Well , I see you Priests are all carnal , and your weapons are not spiritual , seeing you cannot deal with this man , therefore go you and your Priests together .

Coppin .

If the Presbyterians Sect have done , then Anabaptists may begin , and take your day also , for though you are one against another , yet I see you will both joyne together against me ; and this makes good that Scripture , there 's Ephraim against Manasseh , and Manasseh against Ephraim , but both against Judah ; yet point your day when you will .

CHAP. XX . The malicious and illegal proceedings of some Ministers and Magistrates of Kent , against Richard Coppin , in the City of Rochester , with his Commitment to Prison , how , and by whom .

THe Disputes being ended , and the Ministers not relieved , but having suffer'd in their principles , and losing many of their Hearers , they to regaine them againe , have with themselves , and some men called Justices of the Peace , Members of their Churches , had several private consultations together , how they might doe to dismisse me from thence of preaching any more to the people , for which , through their false information , they obtained a Warrant against me from the Committee of Kent , but I was then at London , and having notice of it , did neverthelesse appeare to the Warrant , being willing to answer to any thing that should be laid to my charge , being also cleare and innocent in my owne spirit , of any thing that I had said or done contrarie to any Law of God or man , and I being in my lodging at Rochester , on the Eve of the Sabbath at night , intending to preach on the morrow , came an Officer of the Souldierie unto me from Captaine Smith , a Captain of the Companie there quartering , that I should come before him , into whose hands the Warrant was committed , and whose Order was by the Warrant , that I must not preach on the morrow , but to continue his Prisoner till Munday , onlie I had liberty in the meane time to go to my lodging , but the Sabbath being come on the morrow , and the people assembled together at the Cathedral , according to their former custome , I came amongst them , but a Guard of Souldiers being set in the Cathedrall , I preached to the people in the Colledge-yard in the Morning , and in the Fields in the Afternoone , untill we were disturbed by the Souldiers , who did but their duty which they were commanded by the authority of the Justices , Major General Kelsie , and others for that County .

On the morrow , being Munday , and twenty fourth of December , the said Major General Kelsie , John Parker , Charles Bowles , and Richard Watson , as Justices of the Peace for that Countie , also Captaine Harrison , and severall Ministers , ( as Informers ) met together in the Crowne-Inne of the City of Rochester , where they examined Witnesses , and received what informations they thought fit against me , in my absence , and having before determined amongst themselves what to doe with me , they sent for me to come before them , where Major General Kelsie , told me , that he had received information against me upon oath , that I was an enemie to the present Power , and of several Blasphemies that I had delivered in the Cathedrall , to the great dishonour of God , and the seducing of many people , for which cause they sent for me : I answered , that for what might be informed against me , I knew not , but I doe know nothing that I have at any time spoke , to the dishonour of God , or against the present Power , but hath ever beene , and still am more for it , then those that doe accuse me : No , said he , you did , contrary to our orders Preach yesterday , though you were forbid : I answer , that I know no Law by which they could , as yet forbid me to Preach any thing of God , that I did know , neither should I be silent so long as I had liberty , and my mouth were open ; then said he , by what authority doe you come to Preach here ? I answer , that I Preach by the same authority , that he himselfe hath pretended to Preach by , which is , by the power of God , and the authority of the present Goverment , and also in this Citie , by the desires of the people , and I Preach not for tythes and yearly maintenance to be setled on me , as the Ministers of England , and of Anti-Christ doth , but in love to the Lord Jesus , and his people , and then the Articles against me being read , which were very many , I desired to know my accusers , and they that had sworne against me , and I to answer to the articles : No , saith Major Generall Kelsie , we shall heare no answer to them at present , and so said all the said Justices , for we shall not judg of the business now , saith they , but what we doe at this time is onelie in order to a triall : I answer , that if they would not heare a answer now , I did not question but whensoever I did answer that by the wisdome and power of God which lived in me , I should be able to cleare my selfe upon them all : No , said the Major Generall , I hope not : I answer , doe you hope not , but if there were in you any true love , you would rather desire that I might , and assist me in it : for ( said I ) where doe you read in all the Scripture , that ever Christ and his Apostles , or any for them , that did ever persecute any for their judgment , or make use of any outward Law therein , but were themselves persecuted by the false Prophets , and enemies to the truth , and the truth doth always suffer , by those that know it not ▪ but said the Major , in the times of the Apostles , there were no godly Magistrates , or Governors , as be now , nor Laws established as we have : I answered , that there were Magistrates then , for the Apostles said , be subject unto the higher Powers ; and there were some that did persecute the truth , as well then as now , for they were brought before Rulers and Governors for the truths sake , as now they be , and as Christ saith , they should be for his Names sake . But said the Major , we are not come here to Dispute with you about those things , for you will word it out till to morrow night , if we let you alone , therefore withdraw the room ; then one Major Browne of Chatham-Dook , who never saw me , nor heard me before in his life , railed against me , and said that I deserved to be hanged , that I was the greatest instrument that ever the Devil had in England : I answer , that an instrument indeed I am , to discover what , and where the Devil is , as an enemie to God , and therefore am I my selfe called Devil , by the Devil ; but being commanded to withdraw the roome , I and my friends that were with me went aside into another room by our selves , and after a while came some Officers of the Souldiers with an order from the said Justices , and horses readie provided to carrie me to prison to Maidstone , which was from thence about nine miles , and where I should be from my friends , that none might come to me ; and amongst those that they supposed were my enemies , upon which some of my friends then present , went unto the Justices , and offered for my Bail thousands of pounds , and whatsoever should be desired , but no Bail would be taken , whereupon I desired before I went , to speak with them my self , they sent me word if I would come alone I might , of whom I demanded a reason why I was sent to prison without a hearing , and no Bail to be taken , the Major General said , they were not to give me an account , upon which I pleaded the priviledge of the Act of Blasphemie , by which they accused me , and that I was not wayes guiltie of it ; I also produced the Instrument of Government , signed by his Highnesse the Lord Protector , how contrarie also to that they had acted against me , whereby it no man professing . Faith in God by Jesus Christ , though differing in judgment from the Doctrine , Worship , and Discipline of other men publikely held forth , yet should not be restrained from , but protected in the exercise of their Faith and practise of their Religion , so as it extended not to Popery and Prelacy , nor to a lice●tious walking , and the disturbance of the Peace , and that all Laws , Acts , and clauses in any Law , Act , or Statute whatsoever , contrary to the foresaid liberty , should be ●ull and void : And now unlesse you can prove me guiltie of the breach of somthing in this Instrume●t of Government , to bring me under those exceptions ( to which Instrument I appeal ) you have nothing to do with me , and therefore what you in this have done against me , is contrarie to the Law of the present Government , yea all Laws of sound reason , and the Scriptures , but your owne wills , but it is not a prison , nor any thing else that you can doe against me that I feare , knowing my selfe cleare both before God and man , from what any one can justly accuse me of , but this I find , that those that are enemies to the present power , and that hate it , are suffer'd to make use of it , unjustly to persecute those , who to their power are the greatest friends to it , and there is none hath more contended for it , so far as our freedome and liberty in the truth hath been protected by it , then I have done , and for that am I a sufferer under it , though contrary to it .

And you M. Wise of Chatham , that Preach General Redemption , and as your friend Mr. R●sewell said ( whom you assist here against me ) that if all were redeemed , all must of necessitie be saved , therefore , said he , that your judgment of Generall Redemption was as erronious as those of General Salvation , and you to clear your self , as you thought , of that aspersion , did the last Sabbath day before declare in your Sermon , that though you held General Redemption , yet you did believe that not one of a hundred in all England should be saved . Then said the Major General unto me , Do you know who you are before , methinks you should not dare to be so bold in another mans room : I answered , Sir , I do know , for I am in the presence of God and man , where I am not ashamed to speake the truth , and now is my time to speak , being accused for the truth , and Sir , you were once accused your self for Blasphemie , said he , What is that to you if I were , the Law freed me : Said I , I doubt not but that it will me also , when I come to have Law , in the mean time do you do unto others , as you would others should do unto you : Then said the Major to Captain Smith , Take him away , let him not stay here to retort his words upon us : I answered , that what I speak is the truth , and am not ashamed of it , though others may of what they do . And now Gentlemen , I thank you for what you have done , for in this you will bring much glorie to God , and confusion to his enemies , though which way you know not , but I do , and so farewell .

CHAP. XXI . The confidence , joy , and freedome of a Prisoner , for , with , and in the truth ; Christ and his Generation owned , denied , imprisoned , judged , and freed , by whom , and why , of the power , life , and light of truth , most advanced , when most opposed , and how .

ANd now my jorneuy to prison , the same night , was with so much joy , and chearfulness , as ever I had in any thing in my life , I seeing the end with the begining , the last with the first , and the first with the last , even God , which is but according to my principle , and the sum of my doctrine , which I always declare to the world ; That if I goe to hell thou art there , if I goe to Heaven thou art there , if I goe to the ends of the earth thou art there also , and thy right hand doth lead me , that is , he is always with me sweetening , and refreshing , making joyfull , pleasant , and delightfull unto me , all times , places , and things , with his presence , for his owne glory and my peace , though with much sorrow to many of my friends , that a prison to me in my cause is a palace , where I sweetly injoy the Lord , my selfe , and my friends , all together in one unconfined Spirit , that in the companie of one I injoy manie , for when I am alone then are all with me , yea you all , in all parts of the world , whose Spirit is my owne , the Spirit life and power of all accompaning of me in the same work it hath done , and is to doe by me , for the perfiting of the Saints for the work of the Ministerie , and for the edifying of the bodie of Christ , till they are all come into the unitie of one spirit , to the knowledg of one God ; in which word , Christ saith , I and my Father are one , he works , and I work , saith Christ , and I am not alone , for the Father is with me , and Christ , when he was in prison , yea , when he descended into hell , injoyed the company of his Father with him , which was a Saviour unto him , and forth of a prison doth our Saviour come , Ah poore prisoners that are in prison , and know not that their Saviour is with them , that makes a prison , a prison unto them .

It is written of Christ , that he was taken from prison and ; from judgment , and who shall declare his generation , who can pitie prisoners , but he that hath all pitie , and is prisoner with them , who can shew mercy in judgment , but he that is all mercy , and himselfe under judgment , with those that are judged , this is Christ and his generation , and no pitie , nor mercy is shewed unto them , but by him that is in prison , and in judgment with them , even the Father in Christ , taking pitie of , and shewing mercy to his owne Children , generation after generation ; therefore a poor despised , rejected , cast out , imprisoned generation to the world , is the generation of Christ , for in him is no form nor comeliness . his visage is more marred then any mans , so is his generation , and who will owne it , and declare to be for it , to manifest this generation , but onelie he that can be with all , that can lay downe his life , and take it up againe , nothing of the world , of man , or the nature , in its own outward excellency & glory of righteousness & Religion , will acknowledg it , but make it self a stranger to it , though it be its own flesh , onlie a poor despised scattered seed of the same Generation , that hath nothing , nor know nothing , but the Lord to trust upon , that will own it ; no , it was that seed that men now seek to kill , flay , and burie , and would not have grow or encrease , that did own them when they were in their blood , and yet they will not own him , because they did not know him , He came to his owne , and his own reteived him not , and why was it ? but because he came not to give them a Kingdome of worldlie glorie , riches , and honour , but rather to take it from them , to strip them of all their esteem among men , and to make them denie themselves , the world , and all things therein , to take up his crosse and follow him , but this is a heavie burthen to bear , a wearie step to tread , a narrow path to go , and few there be that find it , this is the burthen that I am made to bear , the steps I am made to tread , and the path I am made to goe , but having alwayes with me the companie of the Lord , I can never faint nor be wearie , but be refreshed , and at rest in the Lord , and so through him become a Conquerour over those things , rejoycing with joy unspeakable , and which is unlawful to be uttered unto men by the Lawes of men , that now let men confine me , banish me , or do what they can unto me , the Lord , in whom I live , will not leave me , nor forsake me ; and now , though my bodie be confined , my spirit is at libertie , contrarie to the will of my enemies , who have sought to deprive me both of companie and comforts , pen , ink , and paper , as they themselves hath declared , to wearie me of my principle , to make me recant my judgement , and to draw the peoples affections from it , but the more by their endeavouring to make good their intentions , the farther off is it from fulfilling , that I freelie forgive them , and leave them to the Lord , who will render to everie man according to his deeds , and bring glorie to himselfe through all things , for the wrath of man shall turne to the praise of God , and by imprisonment , is Truths inlargement , for it shall spring out of the earth , and overflow the refuge of lies , and the Lord will ride prosperouslie because of truth , of meeknesse , and of righteousnesse , that the more you seek to stop it , with the greater currant it will run , till the parched ground is become a poole , and the drie land springs of water , for in the wildernesse shall waters break out , and streams in the Desert , and as fire among thorns , so is truth among the enemies of the Lords people , and the more you seek to quench it , with the greater flames it will burne , till it hath burnt up all the foundations and buildings of men , in their several forms and Religions , that are not founded upon Christ , the Chief Corner Stone , and this will be a Chaos and confusion , and an end of the world to men .

And now what are you ? and what do you doe ? when you seek to imprison or banish this truth away from you , which you know not , and to stop those cleansing floods which the Lord hath opened in drie places for you , and to quench those fierie coales which the Lord hath kindled amongst you to refine you , you do but add a greater encrease to the truth , for all that which is ungodlie , selfish , and wicked within you , that hath opposed the truth , shall be imprisoned by it , and drowned with it , yea , it shall be burnt with the fire , and melted with the heat , until all be consumed , and you dissolved into the nothingnesse of all things below God , where you are all lost , and you again swallowed up into his own Almightinesse , where you are found in your true and everlasting Centre , that sends you forth , and takes you in at his pleasure .

And this is the begining and end of the world , and of all your fighting against the truth , to be lost , and to be found , to be , and not to be , and therefore look about you , you that talk so much of the end of the world , when Christ shall come , do you know this end , and when it shall be ? I will tell you my experience , it is to your end , and at your end , that Christ doth come , and therefore would you prolong his coming , for his coming in , will be your going out , overturn , overturn , his rising will be your falling , and his life will be your death , for you are a lie , and he is the truth , therefore stay Lord Jesus , and come not yet , say you , that know not his coming to be in you , stay till the time of the end of the world , which you would not have to be yet , because your end must come with it , but come Lord Jesus , come quicklie , say I , and all those that know his coming to be in them , that the world of sin , death , hell , and all Devillishnesse may have an end in all men , as in them , that there may be no more wrath nor hatred , no more fighting nor quarrelling , disputing nor contending , for the truth , nor against the truth , but that heaven and earth , righteousnesse and truth may meet together , and imbrance each other in all men , and at all times , places , and things whatsoever , according to the word and will of the Lord , that there may be no more any thing at a distance , neither truth nor error , light nor darknesse , day nor night , but that in the evening there may be light , and so but one day known to the Lord over all the earth , one King , and his name one . But in the mean time you have here following Articles against the truth , and answers for the truth .