grand plvtoes remonstrance, or, the devill horn-mad at roundheads and brownists wherein his hellish maiestie, by advice of his great counsell, eacus, minos & radamanthus, with his beloved brethren, agdistis, beliall, incubus & succubus : is pleased to declare 1. how far he differs from round-head, rattle-head or prickeare : 2. his copulation with a holy sister : 3. his decre affection to romish catholikes and hate to protestants : 4. his oration to the rebells. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a64170 of text r13522 in the english short title catalog (wing t463). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 7 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a64170 wing t463 estc r13522 12594113 ocm 12594113 64007 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64170) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 64007) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 250:e138, no 11) grand plvtoes remonstrance, or, the devill horn-mad at roundheads and brownists wherein his hellish maiestie, by advice of his great counsell, eacus, minos & radamanthus, with his beloved brethren, agdistis, beliall, incubus & succubus : is pleased to declare 1. how far he differs from round-head, rattle-head or prickeare : 2. his copulation with a holy sister : 3. his decre affection to romish catholikes and hate to protestants : 4. his oration to the rebells. taylor, john, 1580-1653. brathwaite, richard, 1588?-1673. [7] p. printed for the callacuchlania, [london] : 1642. signed at end: don antonio demanibus, secretary to his infernall majesty. attributed to richard braithwaite in the wrenn catalogue. attributed to john taylor by wing. illustrated t.p. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng roundheads. brownists. a64170 r13522 (wing t463). civilwar no grand plutoes remonstrance, or, the devill horn-mad at roundheads and brownists. wherein his hellish maiestie (by advice of his great counse [no entry] 1642 1233 2 0 0 0 0 0 16 c the rate of 16 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-05 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2003-05 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-06 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion grand plvtoes remonstrance , or , the devill horn-mad at roundheads and brownists . wherein his hellish maiestie ( by advice of his great counsell , eacus , minos & radamanthus , with his beloved brethren , agdistis , beliall , incubus & succubus ) is pleased to declare , 1. how far he differs from round-head , rattle-head , or prick-eare . 2. his copulation with a holy sister . 3. his deere affection to romish catholikes , and hate to protestants . 4. his oration to the rebells . printed for the 〈◊〉 , in the yeere 1643. plutos remonstrance , or , the devill horn-mad at round-heads and brownists . i grand plvto , chiefe metropolitan in my demoniack kingdome , have by the advice of my infernall counsell , thought fit to publish this my devilish declaration , to all my welbeleved children , as well brownists as papists . his professed hate to the round-heads . 1. that whereas his hellish maiestie hath by some of his ill-affected and factious children , been termed round-head or brownist , as being converted by the moving spirit of a regenerate sister , and begetting of her a numerous issue of round-heads , prick-eares , brownists , &c. we therefore fearing that the said scandall might prove very dangerous to our infernall government , by the great disheartning of our obedient and well-affected chilldren the romish catholikes , in their plots and practises against their lawfull soveraigne , hath thought fit to declare , that hee never sided with , or tempted any the said brownists in any designe against his dearest children the catholikes , their church or ceremonies , but that it hath ever been our greatest care to animate both brownist as well as papist against our own and your common enemy the protestants , their church , king , and parliament , which is likely to prove the overthrow of me and my infernall kingdome . his copulation with a holy sister . 2. that whereas our infernall maiestie hath been thought to have had carnall copulation with one ruth incontinence , a sister in the family , be it knowne to our deere children the romanists , that though we have wished well to the said sister incontinence , and have bestowed on her some gifts of our diabolicall spirit , yet had no intention to violate our vow made to our deer spouse superstition dwelling in blind-devotion , in the parish of ignorance , in the kingdome of popery , of whom we have begotten many obedient children to effect our great designe for ireland , and are in further hope , by her yet unperfect issue , to worke some way or plot for the confusion of this present parliament , to which end wee have presented her with many tokens of our great love and favour , viz. one of the blessed virgins slippers , and many images of her son , likewise an agnus dei , made of virgins wax , that by vertue of our diabolicall coniurations , hath power to preserve from fire water , sicknesse , and the deliverance from numberlesse perills , likewise many bookes of ave-maries , imprecations and prayers to saints , also one book fairely gilt , with crucifixes on the lids , wherein is contained the price that his holinesse hath set on all sinne whatsoever , murder of kings , father or mother , rapes committed on sister , &c. wherunto is annexed a most excellent epitaph wiritten by a most reverend cardinall , and great champion for the romish church , on his most deerly beloved bitch , for whose sake , he built a new monument in his garden , on which he writ as followeth , this tombe for thee deere bitch i builded have , that worthier wert of heaven then of a grave . and for the further good of our deere sister superstition , wee have spared no paines to inspire with our diabolicall spirit of obstinacie and error , all manner of brownists , anabaptists , and many other sects , which shall the more illustrate your religion , deere romanists , and that you all drawing several wayes , may ▪ like sampsons foxes , fire the corn-fields , or church of our common enemie the protestants . his affection and care for his best-beloved sonnes the romish catholikes . 3. wherereas wee have expressed our deere affection to our catholike children , in tempting the said round-heads and rattle-heads to reproach and vilifie the sacred person of their lawfull king , and his ministers of iustice , and to speak all manner of opprobious language against the prophets of the highest , nay even to glory in their falls , and pu●t them up with sulphurous timpanies of preposterous zeale and mallice ; so that one of my dear daughters dwelling in sobeit , at hearing of the bishops commitment to the tower , presently caused a bonfire to be made , wherein she express'd her great ioy at their fall , and fired the same by her owne hot zeal , and afterward affirmed that her kitchin was more holy then the church , because she had a sinke in 't . and is not this deere romanists worth my labour , in tempting them to what my naturall-born-son the turk doth scorn ; to iustifie your own rebellious plots or treasons whatsoever , have not i made them make orthodox scripture apocrypha , to make your apocrypha orthodox ; say my deere popelings , do's not all this make for you , and to the furtherance of you and your actions , have not i made their common service almost as odious as your masse-book , and for their church , ready to be flung out at the windowes . his oration to the rebells in ireland . 4. lastly , my deere sonnes of tumult , have i been unmindfull to bear the crosse in your victorious army , under which you have atchieved victory , to the amazemement of your enemies the protestants , in recompense of which favor , have you not drank healths to my infernall maiestie in the blood of your enemies , making their sculls your quaffing-bowls , to the glory of your religion , and the freeing of many souls out of purgatory ; hath not his holinesse given you authority so to doe . then take courage , and think not on those that have miscarried in such glorious actions , let no reward of treason trouble you , so long as his holinesse bids you on , and i your chiefe captain bid you on ; on then , regard no teares of infants , nor rapes of virgins , your reward shall be in my infernall kingdom for your iust merits in unheard of cruelties , which shall eternize you and your religion , and give full content to our infernall maiestie , who to your aide will send legions of his infernall crew to accomplish your desires on your & my enemies the protestants . vale , signed by don antonio demonibus , secretary to his infernall majestie finis . the coblers end, or his (last) sermon being a true relation of that sermon, which was preached in st. georges church in southwark by a cobler last sabbath day, being the 12. of december, 1641 : who most impudently and insolently stept up into the pulpit and broached his brownisticall and erroneous opinions to his auditors. cobler. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a33528 of text r7271 in the english short title catalog (wing c4783). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 9 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a33528 wing c4783 estc r7271 11799586 ocm 11799586 49356 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a33528) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 49356) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 22:8) the coblers end, or his (last) sermon being a true relation of that sermon, which was preached in st. georges church in southwark by a cobler last sabbath day, being the 12. of december, 1641 : who most impudently and insolently stept up into the pulpit and broached his brownisticall and erroneous opinions to his auditors. cobler. [8] p. printed for i.h., london : 1641. "his text was taken out of the 30. chapter of esaiah, and the last verse" reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. eng sermons, english. brownists. a33528 r7271 (wing c4783). civilwar no the coblers end, or his (last) sermon, being a true relation of that sermon, which was preached in st. georges church in southwark by a cobl cobler 1641 1466 6 0 0 0 0 0 41 d the rate of 41 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-09 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2006-09 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the coblers end , or his ( last ) sermon , being a true relation of that sermon , which was preached in st. georges church in southwark by a cobler last sabbath day , being the 12. of december , 1641. who most impudently , and insolently stept up into the pulpit , and broached his brownisticall & erroneous opinions to his auditors . this is none of y 〈…〉 flashes , but all is most real 〈…〉 ●●uth . his text was taken out of the 30. chapter of esaiah , and the last verse . for the fire of hell is ordained from the beginning , yea even for the king is is prepared . &c. london , printed for i. h. 1641. c ◆ r the coblers end : or his ( last ) sermno the brownists are acknowledged to be the caterpillars of religion , who doe daily strive to contaminate the sincere purity thereof ; for they will not be exhorted by apostolicall confirmation , and propheticall institution of the sacred word of god , but according to the traditions of their owne roving fancies they ordaine no orthodox , but hereticall opinions , and ( that i may use their own words ) as the spirit ( of error ) moves them , they will broach new doctrine to their long eared auditors . but lest i should seeme to deviate from my intended subject , i will with out any digressing aberration proceed herein . there have bin a surreptitious lecture continued in st georges parish in southwark , in the succession of about three weeks , and last friday ( being the appointed day for the aforementioned lectur ) one vincent preached there at the same parish , but his doctrine was so schismaticall , that there was a great mutiny among the confluxe of the popular vulgar ▪ yet notwithstanding by the peculiar , & particular suggestions of some of the said parish , being of his owne tribe ▪ hee was appointed to preach on the sabbath day immediatly succeeding without the generall assent or consent of all the parishioners , and being supposed by his externall gesture to be some scholler , he had more admittance , then otherwise shuld have bin granted him . and being confident of his resolute insolencie , he nominated his text , and proceeded according to the tenour of these words following . his text was taken out of the 30. chapter of esaiah , and the last verse . for the fire of hell is ordained from the beginning , yea even for the king is it prepared , &c. which words he said like the foure rivers , that were divided into foure heads to water the garden . so his text was divided into three parts . 1. the damnation ordained . 2. the time when , from the beginning . 3. the disrespect of persons , yea for the king it is prepared . and thus he began with his first point , viz. the damnation ordained : that all those who would not preach as coblers , and tinkers , were damned . secondly , that those who heard the booke of common-prayer ( being in their imaginary supposition popish ) were damned . thirdly , that those , who would admit of bishops , and such romish priests were damned . fourthly , that those who preached or prayed otherwise , then the spirit moved him , did offend god , & those that offend god should be damned , therefore by consequence , hee that did not pray ex tempore , or preach according as the spirit shall inable him , shall without doubt be damned . and with that he cryed fire fire , so vehemently , that i wonder some did not spit on his face to quench and extinquish the flaming fire of his lustfull mind , and concupiscence . then he proceeded to his second particular , viz. the time when from the beginning : and then he affirmed positively that all men were from the beginning predestinated to be damned . but this we know ( as his other ) is a maine point of blasphemy . and moreover that no learning , either morall ▪ or divine , was requisite for the ministeriall function , but altogether as the spirit moved them . and withall he gave his assertion , and direct astipulation to heare rather a cobler , felt-maker , tinker , horserubber , as those reverend fathers , mr greene , mr. marler , mr. spencer , &c. then any other scholler , who shall premeditate his sermon . thus he proceeded in his erroneous opinions , and hereticall doctrine , scolding , and rayling at all men , and all professions , that he could recall into his memory , still crying with a deplorable exclamation , fire , fire , but to what effect i know not , unlesse he himselfe did feare hell fire for his abominable , and scandalous words . but to omit many of his ridiculous proofes , he at length came to his third point of doctrine , viz. the disrespect of persons , it is appointed for the king himselfe : but if i should describe in an apparant declaration each particular schisme , that he obstinatly produced in this regard , i should be more blamed for expressing it , then hee was for speaking it : yea , i should be more ashamed to demonstrate that , which he was not ashamed to declare . therefore ( judicious reader ) i omit the subsequence of his facinorous inference to your better mentall reservation : neither will i rub the cicatrix of this wound , least it should bleed afresh . wherefore when the alarme of his obstreperous tongue was ended in this prior division , he proceeded unto some other particulars , which were not lesse dangerous , and hereticall in explication , then the former . first he affirmed that all bishops were contrary to the word of god , and therefore diabolicall . secondly , that the booke of common-service was diducted out of the popish liturgy , and therefore ought not to be admitted , or have any approbate allowance in our publick assemblies , and congregations . thirdly , that every one might exercise the talent , according as the spirit shall enable them : for first , whatsoever comes from the spirit is truth . secondly , the spirit cannot suggest a man amisse . thirdly , that the spirit guides a mans thoughts to the right object of heavenly things . fourthly , that he which is led by the spirit , is an absolute child of god . therefore he did assure them to embrace all those good admonitions , which hee had declared unto them ; for he would warrant them that they did all proceed from the holy spirit . also , divers other things he did peremptorie affirme in his pulpit , all which would be too long for me to relate . therefore least i should trespasse too far on your clement patience , j will consummate all in a word , and conclude ; while my daily prayers shall be , that the parliament would take these premises into their grave considerations , &c. the relation of the combustion in saint george his parish in southwarke , last sabbath day , being the 12. day of december , mr. mason the curate of the said parish church should have preached , and there were divers brownistically intended , that had presented the name of one vincent unto him to preach for him who was a cobler living in holborne , and the curate asked him whether he head warrant or no to preach , he answered , that it was nothing to him , and he would preach in spight of his teeth . with that he crawled up into the pulpit , like a jackanapes , and preached there according to his wisedome , i should have said according as the spirit moved him . and after sermon there was a great hurrying over the pewes , and many came to defend him , and flinging a gray coat over his shoulders , they covered his knavery . but the church-wardens , the chiefest of the parishioners , and especially sir iohn lentle , justice of peace , commanded that he should be apprehended : who is now to answer at the common-counsell for his blasphemous words . finis . a whip for the back of a backsliding brovvnist crouch, humphrey, fl. 1635-1671. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a17047 of text s119530 in the english short title catalog (stc 3920). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 5 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a17047 stc 3920 wing w1670 estc s119530 99854737 99854737 20179 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a17047) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 20179) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 21241:237, 1196:14) a whip for the back of a backsliding brovvnist crouch, humphrey, fl. 1635-1671. 1 sheet ([1] p.) printed [by m. parsons] for humphrey chrouch [sic], london : [ca. 1640] by humphrey crouch. in verse. printer's name and estimated publication date from stc. reproduction of the originals in the british library. eng brownists -poetry -early works to 1800. a17047 s119530 (stc 3920). civilwar no a whip for the back of a backsliding brovvnist, crouch, humphrey 1640 805 26 0 0 0 0 0 323 f the rate of 323 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2007-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-09 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-09 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a whip for the back of a backsliding brovvnist . helpe neighbours helpe , good women come with speed , for of your helpe there never was more neede , mid-wives make haste and dresse you as you run , either come quickly or we re all undone , the worlds in labour , her throwes comes so quick , that with her paine shee s growne starke lunatick , for i did aske one of her bratts of late : why the lords prayer was almost out of date ▪ he told me christ had new disciples now , that of set forme of prayer would not allow ; alasse said i are they so dainty growne , such a fantastick crew was never knowne , these are the bretheren of the seperation , the cancor wormes of this our english nation , and it is feard if they be let alone , these wormes will knaw the kingdome to the bone these with the papists breed the mischeife here , whilst cockle braines builds castles in the aire , who parrot like they having learnd to prate , disturbe the church the common-wealth and state , yea church disturbers learnings enemyes , yea seeming saints , yea painted butter ▪ flyes , yea bug-beares of a kingdom silly elues , whose zeale transports you quite beyond your selves , oh know you what you doe , that yea presist , still day by day in doing what you list ▪ shame to our kingdome if this suffered bee , from hombred strife we never shall be free , if that you rule the rost you moone-calues all , why doe you force my m●se to railing fall , that never was accustomed to scould , had not so good a cause made me so hold ▪ gods sperit evermore good sperits makes , then if your sperits of gods spetits pertakes , you will be ruld by order , not by will , god is the same , the god of order still : and you cannot be his disciples right , that end what you begin in hate and 〈◊〉 i judge no man but what their accions ●now brings me of force to judge of what i know , good sister mag-pye and good brother daw ▪ that ●eapes o're hills and stumbells at a ●●raw i pray be patient trouble not the state , your friends at amsterdam do for you waite ▪ mistake me not i speake but this to prove you , i de rather have you stay b●cou e i love you , yet if you stay ●'de have you know what 's meat , betwixt an j dol● and an ornament , which if you doe ● should be g●ad to heare ▪ that to ●u church once more you would repare , which though it be of stone should not be hated ▪ cause to gods service it is consecrated , i know not what your barnes and stables were , where a●●e , bray , pray understand and heare , i speake unfainedly i blush to see , such men so wise in show such fooles to bee , what though the good and bad together meet ▪ within the church as well as in the street , shall we refraine the church ever the more , alasse ▪ alasse your argument is poore : how angry were the pharisees and why , because our saviour christ kept company with publicans and sinners thinke on this ▪ and rectifie your judgements that s amisse . you being good shall in the chansell sit , the wicked in the bellfree as 't is fit , if they be so contented on condition , you 'le come to church and not run to perdition , no drunkard nor no swearer shall sit neere you , for to anoy or other wise to feare you , because i know you timerous are by nature , and wounderous fearfull of a wicked creature , the booke of common prayes refind shall bee , or you shall pray extempory and be free from all occasion of a thing so common , no not so much as looke upon a woman ▪ they shall sit by themselves , let 〈…〉 . for feare your sperits on a suddaine rise , and leade away your mindes from what is good ▪ brethren we know you are but flesh and blood . vpon condition you to church will go , i le doe the best i can to have it so , which if i do i hope i am your friend , as i desire to be , and so ● end . finis . london , printed for humphery chrouch , a tale in a tub, or, a tub lecture as it was delivered by my-heele mendsoale and inspired brownist and a most upright translator : in a meeting house neere bedlam the one and twentieth of december, last 1641 / vvritten by j. t. taylor, john, 1580-1653. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a64208 of text r8979 in the english short title catalog (wing t515). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 11 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a64208 wing t515 estc r8979 12589759 ocm 12589759 63859 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64208) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 63859) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 250:e138, no 27) a tale in a tub, or, a tub lecture as it was delivered by my-heele mendsoale and inspired brownist and a most upright translator : in a meeting house neere bedlam the one and twentieth of december, last 1641 / vvritten by j. t. taylor, john, 1580-1653. [2], 6 p. [s.n.] london : 1641. j. t. is john taylor. cf. bm. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng brownists. great britain -church history -17th century. a64208 r8979 (wing t515). civilwar no a tale in a tub or, a tub lecture as it was delivered by my-heele mendsoale, an inspired brownist, and a most upright translator. in a meeti taylor, john 1642 1850 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2002-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-01 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-03 tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread 2002-03 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a tale in a tub or , a tub lecture as it was delivered by my-beele mendsoale , an inspired brownist , and a most upright translator . in a meeting house neere bedlam , the one and twentieth of decembler , last , 1641. vvritten by j.t. london , printed 1641. a tvb lecture beloved sisters , and my well infected brethren , attend this text , as you shall find it written in the first chapter of bell and the dragon , the third verse , as it followeth , now the babylonians had an idoll they called bell , and there were spent upon him every day , 12 gress measures of fine flower , and 40 sheepe , and 6 vessels of wine . i will first of all make a division in the former part of my text , i will leave the latter to the last , and expound that as i shall vvax to an end . now the babilonians had an idoll they called bell . this sentence i shall divide into 4 parts , because your understandings my beloved brethren , consisteth chiefly in the knowledge of divisions , the particles are these . 1. the time . 2. the nation . 3. the crime . 4. the denomination . the time . now . the nation , the babylonians . the crime , had an idoll . the denomination , called bell . now the babylonians had an idoll called bell . first i will begin with the time , you must not conceive that it was 1 , 10. 100. 1000 yeares agoe , but now , at this present , now the babylonians , &c. beloved there is much evill and abomination to be picked out of these three letters now , according to the explication of a deare deceased brother of ours which you cald anthony now , now , and cald he was from us too soone , yet the worst the wicked can say of him is , that hee dyed a dutifull death , and hee did but come when he was called , but leaving our brother as he hath left us , i will proceed with this word now , now the babylonians , now doth , plainely and significantly expound it self in these words , at this time , this present , this instant , and never were people more strangely misled by fals teaching and preaching then now : you shall heare how many sentences or questions this word now will answer me : when were golden crosses , images & pictures suffered to stand in defiance of the brethren , nay even in the open streetes ? my text doth answer now : when were lying , fcurrilous pamphlets , which abuse the brethren in prose and verse , by the name of round-head , more in fashion then now . there was one who writ a booke , intituled , a medicine for the times , where assuredly he doth vindicate that pillar of golden superstition , cheap side crosse , calling us thieves , who bare away the lead , because those limbes should not be agen set up by idolatrous people , & when was this booke generally sold to draw the hearts of the people from us , but according as it is in my text , now : but were he in our conventicle that writ it , and he that printed it , i thinke it were convenient that all of us with one a-cord shold endeavour to hang them to death , and were they here , no fitter time then now : but sithence they are not present , we will defer their execution till wee can confidently say we have them now : but because i will not trespasse upon your patience much longer then my limited time , 6 houres , i will now conclude this part of my text , and proceed to the next , which is the nation . this nation were babylonians , for so my text telleth me , now the babylonians . beloved , these babylonians are a nation that inhabited babylon , and derive their names from nimrods tower , babel , a tower , which according to my authors description , was 4 hundred thousand times higher then the tower of london , bearing twice as many hundred thousand piece of ordnance , for it was the intention of that proud nimrod , to shoot downe heaven : amongst this nation lived that grand enemy to our sect , the whore of babylon , a most fathomlesse harlot , and corrupted every man that had any part in babel ( the more fooles they ) this nimrod was the first that ever taught idolatry , for ( as i have bin told ) you know i cannot read my selfe , before ever the art of carving or painting was , hee taught the people to adore the fire , which expressed his hot zeale in idolatry , it was onely their ignorance in arts , that kept them from setting up such a crosse , as is in cheap-side : not long after nimrod succeeded king astiages : after his decease , cyrus of persia received his kingdome , as you shall read in the first verse of this chapter , and according to my text is living at this present , for , now the babylonians had an idoll , called bell. and thus much shall suffice to have bin spoken for the second part of my text , which is the nation , babilonians , now the babilonians , i will now proceed unto the third , which is their crime , their idolatry , their image worship the divell by this time had instructed them in the art of making idols , for so my text saith , now the babylonians had an idoll . this idol was made of brasse without and clay within , a brazen face , and an earthen heart , fil'd with corruption and fraught with abhomination . this word idoll properly derives it selfe from idle , which in signification , my attentive brethren , is sloth , iazinesse , they wold imploy their times in nothing but making images . i le warrant you in those dayes a journeyman image-maker might get his halfe crowne a day , doe you but censure then , my deare assembly , how they flourished in their wickednesse , but , since they had nothing else to doe but to set up idols , it shall become us to make it the busines of our whole lives to pull them downe : but take this caution with you , when you next attempt the holy destruction of that nest of idols , cheap-side crosse , be not too violent , least you suffer as our brother did , yet had hee past the pikes , he had bin living to this day . this idoll in my text , was brasse without , and earth within , a cheape idoll to those in cheap-side , for they are gold without , and lead within . beloved , lead was not made to forme idols with , but for the good of mankind , which is to make bullets , and tyle houses ; your onely way to confound this aforesaid cheap-side crosse , is to pull downe to the ground , that old idoll charin , and beat downe this with the stones , that wee may have no more cause to say , now the babylonians had an i doll called bell . i am now come to the denomination of this idoll , they cald him bell , for so saith the text . now the babilonians had an idol . this notorious babe of idolatry , who hath to name , bell , hath his name derived from that generall enemy to mankind belze-bub , one whom we all know to bee the devill ; this bell was made of brasse , & that is the only reason ( my beloved ) that our bels be held so much in contempt amongst the brethren . this bell according to the text had spent upon him every 10 great measures of fine flower , 40 sheepe , and 6 vessels of wine : now who devoured this flower ? bell , who consumed the 40 sheepe , but bell , who dranke the wine , so that there was a generall exaction laid upon each pint and quart , but bell , or a-bell . i have observed that there was never any good in that word where bell had a share in 't what was adam bell , but a hunter , so was nimrod , who built that ambitious tower babel ; i have heard with mine owne eares , those blads which call themselvs cavaleroes call a crosse bard sword troy bel. what is a bel-man but a night walker ( as i apprehend him ) nay doe not your superstitious papists curse the bretheren with bell booke and candell ; was not that cardinall an arch heretick who had to name bell armine ; doe not those persecuting papists in ireland rebel , yes double and tre-bel ; and i hope there will be such an equall uniformity amongst us who are the select brethren that no particular man may be sayd to bare the bel : nor shall any man hereafter be counted a man the sounder for being bel-metle , for bel was brasse without and clay within . now the babilonians had an idol called bell , and there was spent upon him every day 12 measures of fine flower , and 40 sheepe and 6 vessels of wine , beloved had i been to serve bell with this banquet i would have made bels eares ring noone ere he should have had it ; now who doe you conceive should worship this bell ? noe worse man then cyrus the king , as you shall find it in the fourth verse ; and syrus worshipped it and went daily to adore it . and it is thought ( by some authors ) that this syrus first made this bel , if hee did , hee was but a bel founder ; or at least the first that ever was a bel-founder . i shall love a bel-founder the worse for it all dayes of my life ; i could proceed further and would but for feare of the law , who if i should be too zealous , would censure this lecture to be a libell , therefore , this shall suffice at this time , next meeting shall perfect the worke begun : repaire to your houses and consider of these sayings , farewell . finis . a true relation of a company of brownists, separatists, and nonconformists, in monmouthshire in wales. with the manner of their doctrine, christnings, vveddings, and burialls. together vvith a relation of the knavery that some of their teachers practised to enrich themselves withall. the truth whereof will be justified by sundry people of good quality inhabiting in the said county. / by edward harris. harris, edward, 17th cent. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a87141 of text r16250 in the english short title catalog (thomason e172_31). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 11 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a87141 wing h843 thomason e172_31 estc r16250 99859998 99859998 112103 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a87141) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 112103) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 30:e172[31]) a true relation of a company of brownists, separatists, and nonconformists, in monmouthshire in wales. with the manner of their doctrine, christnings, vveddings, and burialls. together vvith a relation of the knavery that some of their teachers practised to enrich themselves withall. the truth whereof will be justified by sundry people of good quality inhabiting in the said county. / by edward harris. harris, edward, 17th cent. [8] p. s.n.], [london : printed in the yeare 1641. place of publication from wing. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng dissenters, religious -england -early works to 1800. brownists -england -early works to 1800. separatists -england -early works to 1800. a87141 r16250 (thomason e172_31). civilwar no a true relation of a company of brownists, separatists, and nonconformists, in monmouthshire in wales.: with the manner of their doctrine, harris, edward 1641 2042 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2008-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-06 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-08 paul schaffner sampled and proofread 2008-08 paul schaffner text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a trve relation of a company of brownists , separatists , and non-conformists , in monmouthshire in wales . with the manner of their doctrine , christnings , vveddings , and burialls . together vvith a relation of the knavery that some of their teachers practised to enrich themselves withall . the truth whereof will be justified by sundry people of good quality inhabiting in the said county . by edward harris . printed in the yeare 1641. a trve relation of a company of brownists , separatists , and non-conformists in monmouth shire in wales . in the county of monmouth in wales , in divers parts a number of non-conformists being assembled together , not regarding in what place they meet , whether in field , garden , orchard , barne , kitchin , or high waies , being ( as they teach ) as available to their devotion as the church : where by their doctrine they perswade their auditory to contemne the prayers of the church , and the preachers of the gospell ; also avowing their owne zealous prayers to have such power with god , as that they dare chalenge him extempore . by which leud perswasion of theirs they have drawne divers honest mens wives in the night times to frequent their assemblies , and to become of most loose and wicked conversation , and likewise many chast virgins to become harlots , and the mothers of bastards ; holding it no sinne for a brother to lye with a brothers wife ; as also a virgin gotten with childe by a brother not to be the worse , but by another , then by the wicked , and so consequently a sinne . and first of christenings ; which is that the father shall bring his child to such of that sect as shall professe himselfe to be a minister , who shall take the child into his hands and wish the father to name him , and being named , the minister useth to cut the child in the eare untill it shall bleed , and then after ( delivering the child to the father ) saith , by such a name thou child shall be called ; in which action they use neither the sprinkling of water , signe of the crosse , god fathers nor god mothers , nor any of the prayers in the common prayer booke appointed to be used for that purpose ; and they will allow of no churching of women by any meanes . the manner of their mariages is , that he that taketh upon him the place of a minister , shall aske the man that is to be married , if he wil have such a maide or woman to be his wedded wife , who saying that he will , hee also usually asketh the woman that is to bee married if that she will have that man to be her husband , who saying that she will ; then their minister will usuall say , goe together and multiply ; in which action they never use the plighting of troth , ring , praiers , or ceremonies whatsoever . of burialls . they wil allow of no praiers or ceremonies at all at the burying of the dead , but give directions that the body be throwne into a pit , much like a thing nothing worth : and being that these sects in all things are inclined to maintaine contradictions as is before said , touching the points of salvation , so they will in all other things ; and ( inter alia ) command the dead to bee laid in the ground acrosse the church or churchyard , or with their heads toward the east , but never with their feete eastward , as the ancient custome was . of a pavier ( being one of the zealous brothers , seeing one of the pastors of that sect get 20. l ’ . under colour of cancelling of sins ) that by his owne practice in the like nature got 3. cheeses and 9. l ’ and by an accident escapt hanging in the earning therof , as followeth . the pavier or zealous brother , being very intimate with the grand doctors of that unsanctified discipline , and being privy to most of their waies and secrets , and hearing it taught at one of their coventicles or meetings , that it was a great sinne for a woman to conceale any mony from her husband ( which exercise being finished ) one of the women of that auditory acquainted the teacher , that she was guilty of that sinne , in regard that she concealed 20. l ’ . from her husband , & demanded what she should doe to be forgiven of that sinne , who commanded her to bring the mony to him , promising so to dispose thereof amongst the people , that her offence in that behalfe should be pardoned , which the simple woman did , whereby she and the poore were cosened by a knave . how the pavier taking this president of the holy man of god his practice , cozened three women of their cheeses . who speedily repaired unto three rich women of his neighbours ( that he knew to be well stored with good cheese which he wanted ) and made them believe that they were such heynous sinners against god , that if speedy meanes should not be made for the remission thereof , they were in the state of damnation ; whereat the poore women being put into a great fright earnestly besought the pavier ( who they conceived to be a learned man full of sanctitie and a detester of vice ) to find out how gods wrath might be appeased , and their sinnes remitted ; who ( after much intreatie and promises of rewards ) told the women that first they should confesse their sinnes , and that according to the quantity thereof , meanes should be made for the remission therof : and being demanded how and to whom their transgressions should bee acknowledged whereby the quality therof might be evident , wished each of them to fetch him down a cheese of the biggest they had , and scales to weigh them in , which being weighed and notice taken of the weight thereof ; the pavier did cut a round circle in the middle of every one of the cheeses , and tooke out the cheese within those circles in lumps unbroken ; insomuch that there was a round hole in the middle of every of the said cheeses almost through ; and thereupon the pavier delivered every woman her owne cheese againe charging every of them by the next morning to confesse all their sinnes in those holes and that he would then come to them , and in the meane time would goe home and pray for them , and study meanes for the remitting of their iniquities , and did take home with him the lumps taken out of the cheese , and cut off all the cheese thereof neere from the rine , and made round lumps of lead fit for the filling of them holes , which he took in his pocket the next morning , and comming to the women , they brought their cheeses to him , saying that they had confessed all their misdeeds that they could remember that ever they did , whereupon the pavier wished them to fetch scales thither to weigh the cheeses , and in the meane time cunningly clapt the lead into the holes which he covered with the rine of cheese that he had in his pocket , which ( being weighed ) fame exceeded the weight they were of the day before , whereby the pavier expressed unto them , that the quality of their sinnes appeared to be so great , that if speedy meanes wore not eftsoones observed for the remitting thereof , doubtlesse they should prese them downe to hell , and therefore the pavier for to banish the multitude of their confessed sinnes from off the face of the earth , tooke the cheeses and threw them over a great bridge into a great river called eboy , wherehence the paviers wife and children by his directions tooke them up and feasted upon them a goodwhiles after . what meanes the pavier prescribed to have the womens sinnes forgiven , and how he cozned them of 9. l ’ . by promising to die for their sinnes and how be was like to be hanged by a boy in earning the mony . vpon a serious conference betwene the pavier and the women , he made it appeare unto them that every sinne was mortall and that therefore there ought to be a death before those sinnes could be blotted out of the sight of god ; whereat the women being in a perplexity not knowing what to say , desired him to invent some other way whereby they might save their lives , and promised to give any content ; wherupon the pavier standing stedfast upon his former words , told them that there must be a death had before god would bee satisfied for their transgressions , and that he loved them so well that he for a reasonanable reward would die for them rather then they should remaine in the state of damnation for their misdeeds , whereat the women became very joyfull , giving him many thanks , brought three pound a peece , which he received , and was the only thing he aimed at , and presently thereupon tooke a little stoole and a rope with him into an upper room in one of the womens houses where spying a crosse beame tyed the rope about it , making it ready for to be hanged therein , for to purchase a pardon for the womens transgressions . whereupon he ( together with the women , having joyned in fervent prayers ) stood upon the stoole , and telling them that the spirit was then strong with him , did put the rope about his necke , and wished the women to goe into the next roome , and pray for his happinesse in so great a taske . and when as they should heare him groane , they should helpe him downe , for that by that time satisfaction would bee made , and their sinnes absolutely forgiven . and so away the women went as he had bid them , leaving him upon the stoole with the rope about his necke ; instantly thereupon a sonne of the woman of the house ( being a pretty big youth , in regard of much whispering that he spied up and downe the house , stealing up staires to see the mystery thereof ) saw the pavier standing upon the top of a stoole , with his backe towards him , and his necke in a rope , and in a manner playing therewith : at the sight whereof the youth calling to minde that the pavier had been a meanes to procure him to be whipt at schoole divers times for playing at tennis and cat upon the sunday , intended to be revenged upon him then , and suddenly shifted the stoole from under the paviers feet , and runne away , leaving him there swinging , in a way indeed to performe what he had undertaken . but the women being near unto him , and hearing him schreech , speedily runne to him , and by much adoe made a shift to save his life . now for the womens paines in hindring the pavier to performe what hee had undertaken , i could finde in my heart in a manner to wish them the successe that the pavier should have , had hee beene left alone , and not by them hindred in his proceedings . finis . anterōtēmata thomæ draks ten counter-demaunds propounded to those of the separation, (or english donatists) to be directly, and distinctly answered. draxe, thomas, d. 1618. 1617 approx. 11 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a20807 stc 7186a estc s105375 99841104 99841104 5663 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a20807) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 5663) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1170:24) anterōtēmata thomæ draks ten counter-demaunds propounded to those of the separation, (or english donatists) to be directly, and distinctly answered. draxe, thomas, d. 1618. [8] p. printed by w. jones, [london : 1617?] caption title, first word in greek characters. imprint from stc. signatures: a⁴. running title reads: ten counterdemaunds. reproduction of the original in the henry e. huntington library and art gallery. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brownists -controversial literature. 2003-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-06 john latta sampled and proofread 2003-06 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion αντεροτεματα thomae dra●i . ten covnterdemavnds propounded to those of the separation , ( or english donatists ) to be directly , and distinctly answered . 1. whether , that their rent , schisme , and separation from the church and congregations of england , can ( in any probabilitie ) bee pleasing vnto god , seeing , it hath had such vnhappy beginnings , the a first founder of it , comming to iudas his shamefull and fearfull ende , hanging himselfe : and the b second totally recanting it , and reioyning himselfe to our church , as diuers of their proselites doe daily : seeing also it hath had so small encreases , and so many dismall and fatall euents , and diuisions : one side excommunicating the other , some of them turning anabaptists , and c others dying and distracted , by reason of irresolution . 2. whether , that the quintessenced profession , religion and discipline of these nouations and innouators , as it standeth in opposition to the church of england , and the rest of the reformed churches ) can bee of god , or , haue any approbation from god , seeing that it hath no vertue , power and efficacy in it ( as the gospell preached in our english assemblies by gods blessing aboundantly hath ) to winne , conuert , and drawe vnto their partie and profession , atheists , pap●sts , heretikes , rude , profane and ignorant people : the apostles , euangelists , and ther holy successors , conuerted all sorts vnto god , but these refined reformers , onely seduce the sound , and peruert and estrange from vs , those , that are otherwise well affected , and of some vnderstanding and make them twofold more refractary then themselues . 3. whether that ( in the very separatists conscience ) our reformed assemblies , ( wherein the gospell of christ is sincerely preached and professed , and the sacraments duly and rightly administred ) are worse then the iewes synagogues , in which notwithstanding christ his apostles preached ; & our ministers , worse then the scribes and pharisees , that sat in moses chaire , when christ commandeth the people to heare , and obserue and doe , whatsoeuer ( according to moses lawe ) they did bid them obserue . wherefore ( to reason à minore ad maius ) if our lord iesus , his disciples , and the people did not separate from their synagogues and assemblies , that were in faith and maners farre more defectiue then ours are , much lesse ought they to separate from our church and assemblies , wherein , all the grounds of christian religion are soundly held , and professed . 4. whether that those great multitudes of people ( though hitherto wanting the pretended church-constitution of the separatists ) that euen fasting heard our lord iesus preach , and professed themselues his disciples , ( albeit many of them were drawen , not by doctrine but by miracles , report , & with a desire to be fed ) can with any reason bee denied to bee members of the visible church , and whither those three thousands which blessed peter at one sermon conuerted ( for they were baptized , continued in the apostles doctrine , fellowship , breaking of bread and praiers . ) were not , before that presbyters and deacons were chosen , true members of a visible church , and this cannot bee refuted , and why are not our church assemblies in england , ( much more grounded in the truth ) &c. a true visible church ? and then with what conscience , doe , or can these separatists sequester and rent themselues from them ? 5. whether , ( to ascend no higher , and neerer the apostles to me as i might ) that in constantines the first christian emperours time , and euer since vnto mr. iohn caluins dayes , for the space of some thirteene hundred yeares , there was no christian churches in asia , africke , europe , because they had the same outward constitution formal state , bishops , arch-bishops , metropolitans , & church-gouernment ( for substance and substance of doctrine ) that our english church hath , and retaineth . and if those were true visible churches , why are not ours ( also ? ) 6. whether , that the reformed churches in the lower , and higher germany , in france , the church of geneua &c. ( that come neerer to their constitution and discipline , then ours doe in england , ) bee true visible churches , or no ? if they be such , why then doe they not adioyne themselues to some of them , but distast them as much as they doe ours ? and why doe they not in iudgment assent vnto any or all of those reformed churches , that with a ioynt consent ( as may appeare by the harmonie of confession ) acknowledge the church of england to be a true visible church , and giue vnto it the right-hand of fellowship ? how dare they refuse such a cloude of witnesses ? will these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 put out all their eyes ? is there no church in the world but their platonicall idea ? 7. how can the church , or , church-assemblies of england , bee false , antichristian , bastardized , wherein the gospell , is so soundly and solemnly and substantially taught and professed , and the sacraments , so rightly administred and receiued , whose bible translations , ( specially the last english translation done by his maiesty command ) are so pure , that the very separatists rest in them : wherein are so many thousands , yea hundred thousands of true converts and orthodoxe christians , that hath bred and brought forth so many excellent and renowned martyrs , who haue sealed the trueth of our religion with their bloud , and died members of the protestant churches ; wherein so many christian exiles are comfortably harboured , wherein so many sound , religious and learned pastors , doctors , preachers , as ( for proportion ) no country in the world can afford the like ; and by whose doctrine , writings , disputes , ( not to speake of the magistrates sword ) the romish ierico hath bin more shaken , and the second beast the antichrist , more fatally wounded , then by any nationall church whatsoeuer : and which church , and the members thereof , haue beene so wonderfully blessed and protected , and so strangly deliuered from the rage , tumults , designes , treasons , conspiracies of the romish antichrist and all his adherents : and in which churches ( as one of the princiall separatists i. r. in his admonition ad lectorem , in his owne name and in the name of his faction , lately prefixed before the third booke of m. robert parker , de politia ecclesi . pag. 368. confesseth , that the grace of god by the gospell , in respect of the cheife heads of true christian faith , by diuers of the faithfull preached , doth so abound , that there are very many godly and holy men in these assemblies , both of reformitants and conformitants , which they acknowledge for brethren in christ &c. we haue ( by their owne confession ) sound faith , and holinesse , why then doe they or how dare they sunder and rent themselues from such a church , and why will they for accidents and circumstances , denie and renounce the substance of a church ? and if they ( vpon bettercōsideration ) estcēc vs brethren , with what warrant cā they seperate from holy brethren in christ , is it not good and pleasant for to see brethren to dwell together in vnitie ? did not the conuerts in s. peters dayes continue dayly with one accord in the temple &c. and why doe not our separatists who would be accounted conuerted saints , imitate them , must wee leaue and forsake a goodly cittie , for the weaknesse of the walls ? 8. how can the formall state ( as they call it ) of the prouinciall , diocesan , cathedrall & parishionall churches of england , and the regiment thereof , be vnlawfull , papall , antichristian ? and how doe , or , can the lawes of the land , and ecclesiasticall cannons confirme it ? seeing that the name , calling & office of b b : whether we respect ordination of ministers or power of iurisdiction , is ( as hath ben , & will be proued ) for substance expressed in diuers places of the new testament ; seeing , it hath had a continuall succession from the apostles time to this day , as all auncient fathers and counsells acknowledge : and seeing that ( at least ) this formall estate of diocesan , parishionall and cathedrall churches , hath bin in vse , long before antichrist was hatched , for the pope was not antichrist before he had gotten the title of vniuersall bishop , nor complete vntill he had gotten into his hands both swords , that is , both ciuill and ecclesiasticall dominion : doth not euery bishop amongst vs , euery pastor and ecclesiasticall officer , abiure the prpes vsurped supremacie ? doe not our statutes , and cannons directly make againg papistry and idolafry ? what will sathan expell sathan , and will the members of antichrist fight against antichrist ? and admitt all bee , as you pretend , doe we not ( at least ) kill antichrist with his owne sword and weapons ? 9. whether , any new lawes can , or ought to be enacted , or any further reformation made without the christian princes or magistrates consent , or euer in a well ordered church hath bene enacted , or made and whether , they haue done well , to seperate with out the kings maiesties leaue and licence , and consent of the state ? 10. whether , it were not the separatists best course , to returne to gods true church and people , from which ( vpon some concealed hard dealing ) they haue made an vnlawfull rent , and therein to confer with the best learned , and if still their consciences be somewhat tender , to supplicate for some fauour and liberty , or if they will not take this course , whether it were not good for them , for the avoiding of scandall , and in expectance of some prosperous successe , by the permission of our noble king , and honourable counsell to remoue into virginia , and make a plantation there , in hope to conuert infidels to christianitie ? finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a20807-e10 maister bolton . maister browne . maister nowell of sheldon in warwicke-shire &c. mat. 23. v. 2. 3. mat. 14. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. ioh. 6. 5. 10. 11. ioh. 6. 27. act. 2. 37. 38. 41. act , 2. 46. anno. 1607. the brownists synagogue or a late discovery of their conventicles, assemblies; and places of meeting, where they preach, and the manner of their praying and preaching. with a relation of the names, places; and doctrines of those which doe commonly preach. the chiefe of which are these. greene, the feltmaker. marler, the buttonmaker. spencer, the coachman. rogers the glover. which sect is much increased of late within this city. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a29892 of text r16519 in the english short title catalog (wing b5191). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 13 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a29892 wing b5191 estc r16519 99860048 99860048 112155 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a29892) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 112155) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 30:e172[32]) the brownists synagogue or a late discovery of their conventicles, assemblies; and places of meeting, where they preach, and the manner of their praying and preaching. with a relation of the names, places; and doctrines of those which doe commonly preach. the chiefe of which are these. greene, the feltmaker. marler, the buttonmaker. spencer, the coachman. rogers the glover. which sect is much increased of late within this city. taylor, john, 1580-1653, attributed name. [2], 6 p. s.n.], [london : printed anno dom. 1641. anonymous; attributed to john taylor. place of publication from wing. the words "greene, .. glover." are enclosed in brackets on title page. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng greene, john, -feltmaker. marler, -buttonmaker. rogers, richard, -glover. spencer, john, -groom. brownists -england -early works to 1800. a29892 r16519 (wing b5191). civilwar no the brownists synagogue or a late discovery of their conventicles, assemblies; and places of meeting, where they preach, and the manner of t taylor, john 1641 2332 3 0 0 0 0 0 13 c the rate of 13 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2000-00 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2001-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2001-09 tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread 2001-09 tcp staff (michigan) text and markup reviewed and edited 2001-11 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the brownists synagogve or a late discovery of their conventicles , assemblies ; and places of meeting , where they preach , and the manner of their praying and preaching , with a relation of the names , places , and doctrines of those which doe commonly preach . the chiefe of which are these . greene , the feltmaker . marler , the buttonmaker . spencer , the coachman . rogers the clover . which sect is much increased of late within this city . a kingdome divided cannot stand . printed anno dom. 1641. the brownists synagogues . or , a discovery of their conventicles and assemblies , the distractions of these times are not unknowne to be caused by the copiousnesse of sects , religions i cannot terme them least i should disallow of that axiomaticke of k. iames of blessed memory , for he acknowledged but two religions , the good and the bad , and those were the protestants and the papists , the protestant the true , and the papists the false , but there are a company of erroneous sectarists , and haeriticall opinions , crept in amongst us , like so many weeds in a pleasant garden ; what good counsell hath our saviour given us , and how little use doe wee make of it , he bids us take heed least we be led away with the doctrine of false prophets , matth. 7. 15. yet how apt are we to believe the traditions of men . how many sects and schismes are lately sprung up here in this kingdome , that they ( like to the plagues of aegypt ) have over-run the land , but namely the brownists , the brothers of the separation , beare the greatest sway , to what an height of impudency have they of late aspired unto , being upheld by too many of that sect , they like the philisti●●s bring their goliah to fight their battels ; but there is no doubt , but there will arise a david of truth to beate down their violent & fantasticall doctrine , by which so many simple disciples are seduced , further these our sectarists will abide no degrees in schooles , all humane learning must be layd by , academies are to them abominable , nay herein they comply with the papists , whose doctrine they pretend utterly to abhorre , who hold that ignorance is the mother of devotion , and of these opinions was how , that notorious predicant cobler , whose body was buried in the high-way , and his funerall sermon was preached by one of his sect in a brewars cart , such an anti-bishop was eaton the famous button-maker in st. martins , but because they are translated from life to death : i leave them . hence come those violent outrages , and sacrilegious disorders cōmitted in the church , even in the time of divine service , and hubbubs and strange tumults raised , where reverend silence ought to be used , by laying violent hands upon the minister , rending his hood frō his neck , and tearing the surplice from his back , he hardly escaping in his own person , from being torne in peeces , and even when the psalme is singing , and the preacher , ready to goe into the pulpit , to deliver his sermon ; as likewise rending the railes from before the communion table , chopping them in peeces , and burning them in the church yard , and this to be done without authority , commission , or order , in a riotous manner , taking upon them further power then iustice requireth , i hope the parliament will take into their wise and grave considerations and pious care , the peace of the church , and not suffer it to be clowded or eclipsed by these mists and errors of darknesse and ignorance , my prayer is , & let it be prayer of all good christians , that these aegyptian locusts , that swarme in every corner of this city and kingdome , may be expelled , that we may enjoy the light of the gospell . let me gentle reader not be prolixious , and i shall here relate unto thee the names , and places where these illiterate preachers live , and make their assemblies , with the unlearned doctrines and opinions they hold . the first man that i begin with , shall be an irreverend glover , whose name is richard rogers , living nigh whitecrosse-street in the suburbs of london , in blew-anchor-alley , he oftentimes doth call a congregation as he termes it , and at his own house tels them what they should doe , which is to con●●●● the church where the relicks of religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to seperate themselves from it , and gather themselves to those which doe feed the holy flockes , which doe abhorre that diabolicall function of the bishops , which are nothing but altarwise , the spirit he tells them , moves him , and so proceeding hee tells them what first comes into his mind , his apologie is , that he speakes nothing , but that which the spirit gives him utterance for . then there is one ieremy manwood , whose doctrine is to be heard in goate alley nigh the same street , who doth commend the opinion of those wch being seperatists , to abhorre the society of the wicked , once in a forrnight doth he teach . also there is one edward gyles , whose holy brothers meet together in checker-alley nigh the same place , his doctrine is this , that the guilded crosse in cheapside , is an idolatrous crosse , for many adore and worship it as an idoll , and that it is an eye-sore to their uprightnesse , and ought to be abolished , he teacheth every first day of the moneth . there is also a buttonmaker in aldersgate-street , whose name is marler , which doth seldome misse once in a weeke , and his opinion is , that every man should follow his owne calling , why then doth he robbe levi of his due ? why doth he dare to reckon himselfe amongst the children of the prophets , his answer to which proposition is , because they prove droanes , wherefore he to show himselfe a laborious bee , doth supply their places . also there is one iohn tucke , whose associates have their convocation in fleet-lane , and his opinion is , that the booke of common prayer , had its first originall from the masse . humphrey gosnold doth teach nigh tower-hill , who doth keep his haire long , because he would not be knowne to be a precisi●n , he telleth his holy assembly , that those pipes , or organs , which are set up in pauls church , and other places , makes more noyse with their roaring , then all the bulls of basan did , when ogg their king passed by them in tryumph . ionas hawkins a fisherman is a provoker to seperation , and liveth in chick-lane . iohn brumley in chancery lane is another zelote , which doth exhort his brethren to follow him , twice in a weeke he teacheth , the women his holy & zealous sisters , well affect him . roger kennet , a yorkeshire man , doth draw a company to him , nigh the royall exchange , his opinion is , none can bee saved , but those which are of their elect. edward iohnson a chandlor , is the teacher to the society which assemble together in more-lane , and holdeth these tenents , that the house , field , or wood wherein their congregation meets , is the church of god , and not the churches we meet in , because the good and bad come both thither , neither is it lawfull to have any society with the wicked . iohn bennet , is he which teacheth nigh love lane in westmin . he disalloweth of humane learning , his reason is this , some of christs apostles were fishermen , when he called them . george dunny is the man which doth teach in the minories , he tearmeth his holy brothers and sisters the seperated saints , from the prophane church , wherein idols have bin worshipped , and where copes and surplices , the garments of the babilonish whore , is still worne . charles thomas a welchman , doth teach in warwick-lane , once in a fortnight , as hee holds none lawfull to be amongst the prophets , but those who were inspired by the spirit , so no man is fit for their holy service , but devout men , and who is familiar with the spirit . alexander smith , doth teach in the congregation which gather themselves together in shorditch , whose opinion is , no man ought to teach but whom the spirit moves , and for this one reason , may we set our selves against those schollers , as bishops , deanes and deacons , which strive to construe the scriptures according to the translation of the hebrew , greek , and latine , which last language , stinkes like a peece of biefe a twelve moneth old , yet new salted . edmund nicholson teacheth in an alley in seacole-lane , hee sayes they are the elect and pure in spirit , chosen vessels of honour , and not of this world . but now i come to the two arch separatists , greene and spencer , both which are accounted as demy-gods , they keep no constant place , but are here , and every where , the one of them is a feltmaker , which is greene , the other a coachman , both which called an assembly upon tuesday being the 28. of septemb. in houndsditch , the tenor of his doctrine was this , that the bishops function is an antichristian calling , and the deanes and prebends , are the frogs and locusts mentioned in the revelation , there is none of these bishops ( saith he ) but hath a pope in their bellies , yea they are papists in grain , they are all of them vnleavened soules , & we have turned them over to be buffetted by satan , and such like shismaticall phrases , as the evill spirit moves him . but let all judge , was not this an excellent simile of the reverend coachman , which having an occasion to make use of a place , which sayes , ye shall be like unto kings and queens , which he did apply to those which were gathered together to his sermon , hee called the men there kings , the women queens , saying , that it was an absurd thing for a king to keep company with a slave , or one of the black guard , or for a queen to keepe company with a kitchin-stuffe wench , so was it an unseemly part for any of that holy assembly , to keepe company with a reprobate , one of the wicked , or one which did accord with the late innovations raised by the corporation of prelacy , which similitude , whether it were religious , let all good men judge , for the whole needs no physitian , wherefore it is requisite in some cases , that those which are piously affected , should keepe cōpany with those that are in a wrong way , that by their admonitions , the wicked might learne to tread the pathes of the righteous , but i forbeare to speake any more of his doctrine . but to proceed to show the manner of their assembling , or rather dissembling . in that house where they intend to meet , there is one appointed to keepe the doore , for the intent , to give notice if there should be any insurrection , warning may be given them . they doe not flocke all together , but come 2. or 3. in a company , any man may be admitted thither , and all being gathered together , the man appointed to teach , stands in the midst of the roome , and his audience gather about him . he prayeth about the space of halfe an houre , and part of his prayer is , that those which come thither to scoffe and laugh , god would be pleased to turne their hearts , by which meanes they thinke to escape vndiscovered . his sermon is about the space of an houre , and then doth another stand up to make the text more plaine , and at the latter end , he intreates them all to goe home severally , least the next meeting they should be interrupted by those which are of the opinion of the wicked , they seeme very stedfast in their opinions , and say rather then they will turne , they will burne . now have i discovered their teachers , their meetings , and the manner of their meetings , i conclude , praying to god , that he would put it into the minds of some well affected christians , to complaine of them to the higher powers , the honourable and high court of parliament , for unlesse they be prevented and suppressed , it is to be feared , that this kingdome will never bee free from divisions , disturbances , and distractions , which , god of his great mercy ever defend . finis . the anatomy of the separatists, alias, brownists the factious brethren in these times, wherein this seditious sect is fairely dissected, and perspicuously discovered to the view of world : with the strange hub-bub, and formerly unheard of hurly-burly, which those phanatick and fantastick schismatiks made on sunday ... the 8 of may ... at the sermon of the right rev. father in god, henry, bishop of chichester ... taylor, john, 1580-1653. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a64152 of text r20093 in the english short title catalog (wing a3060b t427). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 20 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a64152 wing a3060b wing t427 estc r20093 12291411 ocm 12291411 58900 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64152) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 58900) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 196:1 or 265:e238, no 14) the anatomy of the separatists, alias, brownists the factious brethren in these times, wherein this seditious sect is fairely dissected, and perspicuously discovered to the view of world : with the strange hub-bub, and formerly unheard of hurly-burly, which those phanatick and fantastick schismatiks made on sunday ... the 8 of may ... at the sermon of the right rev. father in god, henry, bishop of chichester ... taylor, john, 1580-1653. [2], 6 p. [s.n.], london : 1642. item at reel 196:1 and 265:e238, no. 14 identified as t427 (number cancelled in wing 2nd ed.). reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng brownists. dissenters, religious -england. a64152 r20093 (wing a3060b t427). civilwar no the anatomy of the separatists, alias, brownists, the factious brethren in these times. wherein this seditious sect is fairely dissected, an [no entry] 1642 3654 6 15 0 0 0 0 57 d the rate of 57 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2002-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-08 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2002-08 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the anatomy of the separatists , alias , brownists , the factious brethren in these times . wherein this seditious sect is fairely dissected , and perspicuously discovered to the viewof world . with the strange hub-bub , and formerly unheard of hurly-burly , which those phanatick and fantastick schismatiks made on sunday in the after-noone , being the 8 of may , in the parish of s. olaves in the old-iury , at the sermon of the right rev. father in god , henry , bishop of chichester , in the presence of the right honorable the lord major of this renowned metropolis , and diverse worthy members of the honorable house of commons . london , printed in the yeare , 1642. the anatomy of the separatists , alias , brownists , the factious brethren in these times . svch is the all-daring and lewd licentiousnesse of these last and perillous dayes of the world , that with their faction , schisme & confusion of contradicting and dissenting sectaries , the church of england ( not long since the reformed religion ) is promiscuously shaken , deplorably enervated , miserably torne and distracted . religion it selfe is now crucified , as christ was between two thieves , viz , superstition and irreverence , which is a spice of atheisme , and of the two extreames is worse peccant in the defect , than in the excesse . the world is growne into a new confused chaos , full of new wine lately come from new england , a new spirit , new revelations , & new formes of prayer . there is such a giddinesse in the profession of religion , that every one almost is led by his own opinion , and most men in matters of judgement are divided one against another . 't is too true , that many places in the kingdom of england , and in this citty of london are too much amsterdamnified by brainelesse opinions , and severall senses , which indeed are senselesse senses in religion . religion is become common table-talke , the ordinary discourse at very our commons and ordinaries , where a man shall hardly find foure together of one mind . the papists will have their way ; the atheists will have their way ; the brownists their way ; the anabaptists their way , the familists their way ; and the sisters of the fraternity their way : so that in these various and irregular wayes , they make such an intricate labyrinth of religion , that few or none scarce can find out the right way . a man may with more facility reckon up all the species and kinds of nature , then describe all the sects , divisions and opinions in religion that are at this time amongst us . some approve of popery , because ignorance is the mother of devotion ; others affect nothing but their own silly fancyes , esteeming all things else prophanation and superstition . one at the receiving of the holy communion will not kneele , another will not stand , a third will sit downe , a fourth will not bow ; one holds reverence to be popery , another that rayles before the communion table are romish , and that all decency is superstitious . some say it is lawful to kneele at receiving the elements of the sacred eucharist , others argue and plead for it , as expedient ; some again do presse it as necessary ; and there are others ( indeed too many of that sect amongst us ) who abhorre it as idolatrous . one out of zeale , somewhat inconsiderate , cryes down episcopacy , as antichristian : another very moderate , wishes earnestly episcopacy were reformed and purged from the romish and tyrannicall government , that incumbers it : a third kind of men carryed by a contrary wind , maintaine episcopacy to be iure divino : thus quot homines , tot sententiae , so many men , so many minds . from these premisses of discord and faction , needs must there proceed much tumult and distraction to the great disgrace and scandall to the true protestant religion , to the encouragement of the wicked , who seeing that there are so many sects and separatists , will therefore be of no religion : o deus bone , in quae tempora reservasti nos● polycarp . well may we take up that exclamation of the roman orator , o tempora ! o mores ! bad times , wherein there are worse men , and worst of all manners . plenitudo hominum , sed solitudo bonorum ; a plenty of men , but a scarcity of good men . there is such a multitude of sectaries in all places , both in our cities and countries , that we may justly feare this little island will be turned into a great amsterdam . hinc illae lacrymae , one would reconcile popery and our religion together , another would introduce faction and innovations into the church : so that between the papists and separatists , the church strangely suffers . this latter sort of late days hath been very impudent and turbulent , both to the church and common-wealth . they were never more insolent at any time , then they are now at this time , and never more frequent and resident in any place then in the two famous cities , amsterdam , and this of london . they are the separatists , or brownists ; the libertines or anabaptists ; who are grown to a great head , ( for indeed they are bellua multorum capitum ) a giddy headed multitude , & are so common amongst us , that they are commonly call'd the round-heads . the fraternity at amsterdam , and the brownists in town , are brethren of the same tribe . they are nominated brownists from one browne ; as we usually terme the lutherans from luther , the calvinists from calvin , and the arminians from arminius . these are the late up-start sectaries of this age , the new crept in caterpillers of our kingdome , that do more mischief dayly , than any sect whatsoever . these are the ionahs that have raised the tempest ; these are the achaxs that do trouble our israel . they are so many for their multitude , that like bees they swarme amongst us . indeed the time was when they crept in corners , but now they are like the egyptian locusts , covering the whol land , ye may know them by their frequent and far fetcht sighes , the continuall elevation of their eyes , their meager physiognomies , solitary countenances , sharp noses , by the cut of their hayre , made even with the top of their prick-eares , ( for their haire is as short as their eye-brows , though their consciences be as vast as the ocean ) yee may further discerne them by their broad hats and narrow ●ufs , which they usually weare , the putting of their gloves under their girdles , and the folding of their hands one within another . indeed they are painted sepulchres , whited walls , whose religion consists in frequent fasting , and long prayers , which devoure widdowes houses , the outside of whose vessels are pure and washed , but within full of filth and corruption , under sheep-skins are ravenous wolves . they hold that religion ought to be guided by the motion of the spirit , not reason ; therefore they will rule religion , religion shall not rule them , or else they will go against religion , as the iewes did in meeting christ with swords and staves . they pretend sanctity , but intend impiety ; much they professe , but little good they expresse : their piety is altogether dissembled , and what that is , t is sufficiently known ; for simulat a sanctitas est duplex iniquitas . religion is of it selfe pure , unspotted , immaculate , and undefiled ; but they by their private malice , do endeavour to pollute and contaminate the purity thereof . they say they would have religion reformed , but their ayme is to have it deformed . these were called in greeke {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in hebrew paratzim ; viz. separatists , for other men they accounted profane people of the earth , but themselves the only holy men in the land ; therefore with others they would not converse for feare of defilement . in a precise manner they looke down with their eyes , when inwardly a whore is not more deceitful . they are double-minded , hollow-hearted , and wil as nimbly swallow up at a bit , another mans estate , as our dutch will pills of butter , and never purch for it , all is fish that comes to their net . vnde habeant nemo quaerit , sed oportet habere . they make it no matter how they come by it , so they have it . their mouths are replenished with yeas , and very lyes , but their tongs and hearts do as much differ as truth and errour : though they do seldome damnably sweare , yet they will most abominably lye . for lying , falsehood , and hypocrisy , these are their familiar experssions . they are much addicted to prayer and fasting ; for they frame a long babel-like prayer , made up with hums and hawes ; and though they affect fasting well , yet they love their flesh better , they much delight in private conventicles , and secret and obscure places , in which voluptuous wantonnesse has her meeting , where the spirit enlightens the understanding to see a sister in the darke : though they are superciliously rigid and censorious , yet they seem very charitable , for rather then their sisters shall want food , they will fill their bellies , and rather then they shall be naked , they will cover their bodyes . brothers they are , but not of the blade ; for they cannot endure our cavaleers ; yet they are lovers of the sisters of the scaberd . brethren they are , not of the corporation , but the separation ; like simeon and levi , they are fratres in malo . they are altogether ignorant , therefore they despise all learning : for the tongues and languages , they utterly abhorre and detest them as profane , and for our ordinary latine , they 〈◊〉 it is the language of the beast . they are resolved still to be as they are , ignorant , for they bold it idolatry and superstition to learne to re●d because the very first letter begins with a crosse . the crosse they account the marke of the beast , and though it be the ancient ensign of christianity , yet by them it is contemned , all crosses they dosie as may-poles ; the one they hold profane , and the other they averre to be superstitious . they can endure no crosse but that on silver or gold ; and for the crosse in cheapeside , it is the pillar of golden superstition , the abomination of the city , the city idoll , and a supporter of idolls , having so many images about it , which is as displeasing to their sight as the counter in woodstreet is to an indebted citizen . all ceremonies they account popish , a surplesse the snock of the whor of babilon , the sight wherof is as terrible to them in a church at noone , as the apparition of a ghost in a church-yard at midnight , an orthodox and lawfuly called , and allowed minister is not minded amongst them ; for they hold it as lawfull for artificers , and laymen , to preach in publike , and those that are most inferior , as coblers , weavers , leather-sellers , box-makers , iron-mongers , felt-makers , and such mechanick fellowes . these and their holy sisters ( for they may wel be linkt together ) are they , who by their unreverent gestures in the church disesteeme of church-prayers ; these are they who contemn the publike service of god , and cry down the lyturgie of the church of england ; that solemne lyturgie , celebrous by the piety of bishops , and martyres , hallowed with the blond of some of them who composed it , established by the lawes of this land , by severall acts of parliament in this kingdome , attested and approved by the best of all forraigne divines , confirmed by the subscription of all the clergie , accepted of by the most and best of all the laity , and hath continued since in the raignes of queene elizabeth , king iames , and our gracious king charles , in the church of england , for the service of god these 90. yeares ; that this holy exercise of religion should be by them vilified , interrupted , and depraved , what doth it tend to , but the advancing of heresie , schisme , profanenesse , libertinisme , anabaptisme , and atheisme ? we acknowledge , that some parts of our publike liturgy , may be very well corrected , ( and thankes be to god the great counsell of the king , and the kingdome have consulted and determined about it ) but the clamours now go very high : impudence or ignorance is at this time grown so frontlesse , that it is confidently expected by many , that all formes of publike worship should be utterly abrogated , and that our booke of common-prayer should bee quite abolished , as they would have episcopacy everlastingly extirpated . they affirme that that which is called the liturgy is the same with the masse , either a lethargy of worship , or a masse of idolatry ; wherein is no purity , but all papistry . in the service-booke they say there are foppish and foolish tautologies , as in these words , the lord be with you and with your spirit : and in the letany , there are vaine and ●●ivolous repetitions of words , as good lord deliver us , and we bese●●● to heare us good lord ; which they are not ashamed to say are ridiculous invocations like magick spels , and no better than conjuring . these moderne zealots ( forsooth ) are offended at the vestments and habits of the clergie ; every thing though never so laudable , decent , and necessary , if contrary to their opinion , is by them accounted profane , or superstitious . they make no reckoning of the church of god , than of a barne , or a stable , either of these is all alike to them . barnes and stables are for threshers and hostlers : the church is the house of god : yet they are so base minded , as to conjecture a barne or stable good enough for him , whom the heaven of heavens cannot containe , the high and lofty one that inhabiteth eternity . they account their own houses as holy as the church ; t is strange divinity , and yet i hold no inherent holinesse in either . i have read of a sort of hereticks about the yeare of our lord 1126. who would have all churches defaced and demolished as needlesse fabricks , and unnecessary structures ; for god dwels not in temples made with hands . sure these separatists are of their minds ; if they were not , they would mind the church better then they do ; but these love to stand without at the church doore : i am sure they have no president for it out of the word of god , that whilst the preacher and people are praying , within , they should stand prating without . that description of s. paul may be properly predicated of them : they are lovers of their own selves , covetous , boasters , proud , disobedient , unthankfull , unholy , without naturall affection , truce breakers , false accusers , incontinent , fierce , despisers of others , heady , high minded , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , magis quam , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} lovers of pleasure more than lovers of god , having a forme of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof , 2 tim. 3. 2 , 3 , 4. tha likewise of s. iude may be truly applyed to them , they defile the flesh , despise dominion , and speak evill of dignities , 8 ver. these are they who separate themselves , sensuall , having not the spirit , 19 ver. and who these persons are , who say they have the spirit , the subject of this small tract doth sufficiently declare , the separatists . they are offensive to god in the contempt of his ordinance , whose commandement is , that every soule should be subject to the higher powers ; and they are injurious to the king and state , whose power they despise , and government they affront . their lives are hypocriticall , their positions schismaticall , their thoughts perilous , their words malicious , their acts mischievous , and their opinions impious . they hold it a matter arbitrary or indifferent , which they dispense with at their own wils & pleasures , to behave themselves irreverently , unmannerly , undecently , and disorderly in gods house , in his presence , and that under pretence of avoyding superstition , dum vitant stulti vitia , in contraria currunt : what is this , but to avoyd scylla , and fall upon charybdis ? to run from one extreame to a worse , ex fuma●io flammam , out of the smoake into the flame . this is the reason they have made so many uproares , the like in pristine ages unparalleld motions and commotions in our churches of late dayes , in the cathedrall of s. paul , within these few months , and in s. olaves church in the old iewry , on sunday in the afternoone being the 8. of may , i know not by what unhappy fate , there was at that present congregated a company of rude rascals , to the number of above 100 , who as soon as the right rev. pious and learned bishop came up into the pulpit in his lawn sleeves and other vestments suitable to a prelate , they presently like an unmannerly and ill-bred crue of unruly curres , made such a hideous clamour in the church of god , crying joyntly , most impudently and with one accord , a pope , a pope , a pope , to the astonishment of the man of god , & to the admiration and amazement of the l. major , the parliament gentlemen , and other noble and worthy auditors that were then present . some of the varlets ran out of the church , others by the l. majors officers were thrust out of the church , and the doore shut upon them : and i wish this cursed sect may beever excluded as from our churches so from our cities , assemblies and societies : i am sure , in the purest times of the primitive church , there were ostiarit , doore-keepers , to debar from ingresse into the church notorious hereticks , obstinate idolaters and profane livers . i would not be accounted uncharitable , therefore my opinion is , that these sons of tumult bare no violent malice to the right reverend bishops person , ( for he is the object of every mans love ) only i imagine their inveterate spleene aymd at his function . a pope and a bishop are all one with them , when these turbulent schismatickes were in the street , they fell to picking of quarrels , and broke many glasse windowes in the church , in the time of the sermon , they were so audacious and impudent as to say , that they who were in the church were at masse , and that the lord major was a papist , whom god and the world knowes to be a gentleman of an approved and unblemished integrity and an unfained protestant of the church of england . one thing i have more to relate , that on of the rascals was the same day apprehended , & examined by some of the parliament gentlemen after sermon in the lord majors house , & was by his lordship committed , of whom hereafter ye shall heare more ; for the present , i am sorry that such an occasion is offered me to trouble the readers patience so much , with the relation of this viperous generation , and with such unsanctified sons of mischiefe as these are ; only give me leave , before i leave them , to leave this wish to them , that these brothers of schisme and sedition , with their sisters of faction and insurrection ( for they of that sexe are as bad , being of the same sect ) may in due time ( as i hope shortly they will ) suffer exemplary and condigne punishment according to their demerits . finis . a discoverie of brownisme: or, a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the english company of the seperation remayning for the present at amsterdam in holland. by thomas white white, thomas, fl. 1605. 1605 approx. 48 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a15110 stc 25408 estc s101313 99837129 99837129 1439 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a15110) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 1439) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 980:02) a discoverie of brownisme: or, a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the english company of the seperation remayning for the present at amsterdam in holland. by thomas white white, thomas, fl. 1605. [6], 26, [4] p. printed by e. a[llde] for nathaniel fosbroke and are to be solde at his shop at the west end of paules, london : 1605. printer's name from stc. reproduction of the original in the yale university. library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brownists -early works to 1800. 2004-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-11 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-01 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2005-01 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a discoverie of brownisme : or , a briefe declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practised and increased among the english company of the seperation remayning for the present at amsterdam in holland . a wicked man deceiueth his neighbour , and leadeth him into a way that is not good . pro. 16. 29. by thomas white . london printed by e. a. for nathaniell fosbroke and are to be solde at his shop at the west end of paules . 1605. to the reader . two extremities ( dangerous ) there are which in these dayes bringe no small detriment or annoyance to the church of god. the one atheistical prophanes , which is fearful ; and the other hipocritical contention , which is abhominable . and these howsoeuer they seeme to differ the one from the other , yet the one is strengthned and hardned by the other , and this with a mutuall reciprocation : against both these , the holy ghost applies a soueraigne remedie : heb. 13. 14. followe after peace and holines , without which no man cā see god. and luk : 1. . 14. 15. that we being deliuered from our enemies , might serue him in holines and righteousnes ( to auoyde prophanes ) before his face ( to flye hypocrisie ) all our dayes . of the latter of these , or rather of both , ( for the former oft times proceedeth from the latter , howsoeuer for a while enuy palliateth it selfe vnder the name of zeale as both are signified by one greeke word ) i haue giuen an instance in this treatise following in that congregatiō , which god hath made as a spectacle for others to beware of rash , heady , and contentious courses . this haue i done ( all other peaceable meanes being before vsed ) for the discharging of mine owne duety both to god and his churches , the staying of others , who would neuer be so affected to them as they are , if they knew their fearefull estate . if eyther for the breuity or rudenes of the stile it satisfie thee not : for the former i cōfesse that i haue rather endeauoured to point at things briefely , then by dilating to fill vp large volumes , of purpose omitting many the vilest thinges , partly for offending chaste eares , partly for sparing them , vnlesse further occasion be ministred by thēselues . and as for the rudenes of the stile , either by superfluous repetitions , or redundant speeches , let the inconuenience both of time & place something excuse me , being but newly arriued , neyther enioying health , nor help of bookes in the penning therof ; my minde also many waies distracted about other businesses . the time to come may bring foorth some further thing more answerable to thine expectation : in the meane time accept this in the best part . and the lord giue thee vnderstanding in all thinges . a briefe discoverye , of some of the errors and abhominations , dailye practised and increased , amongst the english companye of the seperation , remaining for the present at amsterdam in holland . it may seeme strange , that any , who pretend ( aboue all other ) sinceritie in religion , and there-vpon forsake their owne natiue country , should yet notwithstāding , be found to abound aboue others with all kinde of debate , malice , adulteries , cousonages , and such other like enormities : and that so much the more in the dayes of their banishment and extreame pouertie , which outward affliction , doth euen humble the wicked : and yet so farre from repentance , that when they are shewed and admonished of their euill dealinges , they seeke to couer , hide , cloake , reproach and reuile their admonishers of better counsaile ; which for mine owne part i could haue borne in silence , committing it to him that iudgeth iustly the sonnes of men : yet least others be deceaued by thē , as some of vs haue beene , and should be drawn by them through their painted colour of holinesse to partake with their abhominations and vnfruitefull workes of darkenes , & to runne with them to that fearefull extreamitie in cōdemning al other churches & men : i thought it my duetie according as my leasure ( which is small , & my abilitie which is lesse , would permit ) vpō experience to giue warning to others of their leaders euil dealing , wherby their people are deuoured . and , although i knowe i shall object my selfe heerein but to the reproach of virulent and venemous tongues , yet shall i be content to beare it , that others may reape benefit thereby . neither doe i this , any way to discourage the true vpright hearted , but rather that all that call vpon the name of the lord , may learne to cast frō them the cloake of hypocrisie , and the leauen of contention and maliciousnes , and so not in showe , but in deed departe from jniquitie , least they reape the fruites thereof as these haue done . i haue already written to their leader m. fr. iohnson , of his ( with the rest of their elders ) falshood , shiftings , and other contraryties : as also laying to their charge , partaking in and with their church in these blasphemous doctrines . 1 , that they held it lawfull for a man to liue with her that is not his wife , rather then to reueale himselfe , which first denyes the prophecy of christ ; secondly destroyes the nature of repentance , and thirdly is a fundamētal error cōtrary to these scriptures . math. 3. 2. 8. rom 3. 8. & 6. 1. heb. 6. 2. that there are qualities in god not essentiall , & that loue in god is not of his being , but that the selfe same loue that is in god , that is also in vs , which ouerturnes the nature of god , and the simplenes of his being , and is a ground of famulisme , and a blasphemous doctrine contrary to these scriptures . ex. 3. 14. es. 43 , 25. 1. iohn . 4. 8. to this he promised answere and performed it not , though he tooke no small paines by falsifying to discourage the witnesses , but was content to let it lye vpon him vnanswered , so becomming by his own confessiō a dūbe minister . now therfore i see no further cause of writing to him , but will turne to the christian reader ; giuing him a taste of their dealing , both in writing and practise , profession & conuersation , and yet laying that to their charge wherof due proofe can bee made , as the reader shall well perceiue by my proofes , & their answers iudging indifferently . they indeede are the men , that accuse others of simplicitie , absurdity , inconstancy in turning their coates , of being hearers and not doers of the word , of retayning open offenders & so becomming cages of euery vncleane bird , of being neither willing nor able to iustifie their estate , and this not alone of their country-men but against those churches also with whome they liue . 1. but what if themselues haue . 1. betrayed their owne cause in writing . 2 giuen the blacke letter of condēnation not alone to the churches of christ that eyther are , or haue beene since the apostles daies , but also to thēselues , & their practise by their describing of a visible church ? 3. doc practise that amongst themselues which they condemne utterly in others , & haue amongst themselues open and notorious cousners , and such other like offendors ? 4. haue giuen themselues ouer to sathan , and brought the curse on their owne heads by wicked and vngodly excommunications . are they then the holy assembly of saints marching in such a heauenly order after the lamb , whether soeuer hee goeth , whereunto no vncleane thing entreth , nor remaineth ? whether these accusations bee true or no , let the sequele declare . and first that master fr. ih. hath vtterly disproued the maine drift of all his booke , and so betrayed his owne cause , as christ alleaged against the pharises , the example of their owne children , that they might be their iudges : so may i his owne writings against himselfe , that they may be his iudge , which thus i shew . the drift of his booke is by the description of a true church , to discouer the false . this discription as oft elsewhere , so also he hath , page 196. last answer to m. iac : viz. that a true visible church of christ , is a company of faithfull people , called out by the word of god , and seperated from the world , and the false waies thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of christ. and his meaning of this discription doth further appeare by cōparing it with the third false doctrine alleadged by him , page 158. of the same booke , as also with the 17. art : of ther confession , where hee expoundes it , by seperating his church from vanitye , idolatrie , dissolute life , and all false workes of darkenes . this discription so propounded and expounded , he thus ouerthroweth , page 47. of the same booke before cited , where he affirmeth , that the israelites in egipt were gods church , prooues it by exod. 4. 22. 23. euen then , while they sinned with the idols of egipt , alleadging ezek. 20. if they committed idolatrie with the idols of egipt , how were they then a company of faithfull people seperated from all false wayes ? if he say this their sinne was not their generall estate , as he answers in an other case to m. h. page 49. the place quoted by himselfe out of ezek. 20. shewes the contrary , affirming none of them to haue for saken the idols of egipt . if he say this their sin was not of obstinacie , the same scripture sheweth that they were admōished , v. 7. yet they rebelled against him . v. 8. and as for the nature of their jdolatry it was heathenish ; will he then say that idolaters in their generall estate , with heathenish jdolatrie , rebelling after admonition , are such a faithfull people seperate frō all false waies , as he describes a true church to be ? if not , how were they gods church ? to vse tullies words , testimonium tuum quod in aliena releue est , hoc contrate graue . &c. thine owne testimony which in an other case is of small weight , this against thy selfe is of much moment . and heere he must remēber that he describeth not a true church , what it ought to be , but what it is if it bee a true church as the drift of that place , where this description is set down declares , as that , 1. it is for the clearing the question betwene them . 2. for the discerning of the true church frō the false . 3. bids m. iac compare their best asemblies with this description . &c. otherwise his aduersary might haue answered , that though the churches of englād agreed not with that descriptiō , yet might they haue beene true churches notwithstanding ; and he had writtē nothing to any purpose against him . moreouer in the answere to the preface of the same booke , sect. 6. m. fr. ih. thus speakes : any church though truely constituted , if they will rather abide in error then obey the voice of christ , are not true churches . and yet the iewes in egipt rebelling after admonition , are gods church by his account : how well these thinges hang together let the reader judge . in like māner m. ih. denies not . page 87. of the booke before cited , that the iewes in christs time , yea and after his death , were true churches , which had despised admonition before : lu. 7. 30. math. 23. 37. yet this which m. iohns . acknowledges , m. h. barrow calles blasphemy : so well they agree together . is it possible so to ouerthrow the maine drift of his owne writings , and perceiue it not ? or is it not veryfied which the wise man speaketh ? the euill man is snared by the wickednes of his owne lippes . and yet this booke he saith he did not make alone , but consulted with others heerein , and namely with maister ains-worth , a man that hath turned his coate as oft as euer d. b. if not oftner , whome hee tearmes approoued in christ : and daniel studly an elder of ther church , a man , ( not alone for his filthinesse wlth his wiues daughter , but also for supporting of manifest & shamefull vncleannes and cousning amongst them in others ) fitter for the stewes thē to be an elder in any christiā society . no better is his dealing in condemning the dutch & french churches , for despising their admonition , and yet acknowledge the iewes in christ time , to be a true church , dispising more admouition , and that of greater sinnes then euer they admonished the elders of these churches of : hée that wauereth in his owne testimony , how shall his witnesse be receiued ? but he is not alone content to confute m. ih. viz : himselfe , except he doe also by his description cut off from being true churches in their account , all the churches of christ that euer haue bin since the apostles daies : 2. now are , yea and 3. thēselues which thus i pooue . if no church that hath beene since the apostles daies or now is that we reade of , be seperate from al false waies in their accompt , then by his description and in their account must they be no true churches , but the former is true : therefore the latter . the proposition is vndeniable from his owne description . the assumption is as certaine , as will appeare , in that they account the very using of the lords prayer as a prayer , to be a false way , which was vsed from the apostles age , as tertullian saith : premissa legitima & ordinaria oratione , ius est super struendi extrinsecus petitiones . &c. the lawfull and ordinary prayer ( speaking of the lordes prayer ) being premised , &c. 2. for the churches that now are , their dealing with the dutch and french churches declare it sufficiently : & howsoeuer they seeme to put difference betweene those churches in the low countries whome they haue admonished , and those that they haue not ; yet to put the matter out of doubt , let him tell us if they account it not apostacy for one of them , so much as once to heare the word preached in any congregation dutch or french in all the lowe countries besides ▪ or if he can , let him name any one church on the face of the earth now , that holdeth not false wayes , yea euen in their constitution in their account : neyther shall he shift off the matter with his distinction of faultye and false worshippe , for when hee hath put downe the difference , whereby he distinguisheth the one from the other , which yet he hath not done to my remēbrance , then wil i shew him that there is no church that he can mentiō besides themselues , that holdes not onely faulty , but false waies also in their account , and that in their constitution . are not they then the blasphemers of the christians and their churches ? or is not this to robbe christ of his honour ? or may not that saying . pro. 11. 12. bee veryfied of themselues : bazleregnehu chasar leb . he that despiseth his neighbour is a foole . 3. but heerein others may pardon them , for they are as fauourable to others as to themselues , for except themselues be agreeable to their owne description , after wounding others , they haue turned the point of their weapon into their owne bowels : that they are not seperate from all open offenders , and all false wayes appeares . 1. in that they retaine amongst them open offendors : to giue instance , one castle was noted amongst themselues publikely in their meeting for cousnage , and that by one of their elders , and indeede knowne notoriously so to bee , which if m. ih. doubts of , he may aske his elder sta : mercer , their deacon : tho. bishop : w. knowling , robert iackson &c. and yet would m. ih. with h●s teacher m. a. and the rest of their elders , defend that hee ought not to bee publiquely dealt withall for it , because it was not orderly made publique : and this before many witnesses : neyther did that castle shew any repentance in like sorte of this sinne . besides him was not r b. ( after other moste horrible adultery ) publikelye accused in their meeting for creeping in at a windowe to come to bed to an other mans wife in her husbands absence , yet was this man neuer publiquely dealt withall , vntill this day for it , that i can learne . or if these instances serue not their turne , what will they say to their elder , daniel studley ? ( who together with his filthines afore mentioned , in supporting vncleanes in a woman a member of their church ) did also refuse to pray with his owne wife a member likewise of the same church , and yet will shew no repentance for thus doing , though he hath beene dealt withall for it ; yea and worse carryage then this , of which his wife hath often and doth continually complaine , which though he be not ashamed to commit , yet i am ashamed to mencyon . i am sure m. ih. cannot pretend ignorance heerein , for hee hath beene tolde oft of his euill dealing though hee durst not , or would not redresse it . or if these yet bee not enough , you shall haue more ( if neede be ) as iudith holder , canady , iaacob iohnson &c. how are they thē seperate from all open offenders ? or are they not defiled by cōmunicating with such ? or shall i say fitte members for such a fellowshippe ? if they say this is not in their constitutiō ; i answere yes euen in the constitution they holde false waies , which thus i prooue . 1. in their constitution they holde . first that the lords prayer is not to be vsed as a praye , rcontrary to christs expresse cōmaundment , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . secōdly , contrary to the tenor of the words , hauing the forme of a prayer in all things , as our father , giue vs , and amen annexed in the end , which shewes that they arepetitions not positions or rules which are set downe in another forme . math. 77. 21. 22. 1. ioh. 5. 14. thirdly , contrary to the vse of al christians , that wee reade of , as before out of tertullian and others may be alleadged : 2. they hold also that it is not lawfull for the innocent partyes , to retaine the offēder , as the wife her husbād , or the husband his wife , if either party haue committed adultery , no though the innocēt party vpon the others repentance , forgiuing the others sinne , be desirous still to liue with the other party in the marriage couenant as before , but haue excōmunicated the parties innocent for so doing , as namely h. c. & one homes his wife , vpon this , diuers of them accused themselues of adulterye , that so they might be ridde of their wiues , as namely one w. holder and tho : canady . 3. they haue altered many thinges which they held in their constitution , as among other , that it was not lawful for apostates to beare office , then must they confesse that they did hold false waies in their constitution , and so by consequent , then were no , true churches . 4 but what would it profit them to be free from false waies in their constitution , if their practise bee not according to their profession ? this ( to vse their owne wordes ) makes their sin the more greeuous . and sith their knowledge is but in part aswell as their loue , are not they as well as others subiect to erre in constitution as well as practise ? if m. fr : iohnson with his other helpers should yet finde out a further shift , & say that their meaning in their description afore mentioned , is , that a true church must be seperate frō all false waies , which they see , for the preuenting of them therein , i answere : 1. if they had ment onely such false waies , it had beene needefull in the description to haue implyed so much . 2. though they haue beene already pressed with exceptions against this discription , yet haue they no where as yet taken vp this starting hole that i can perceiue . 3. yet if now they should , they haue stopped it thēselues , page . 107. 108. 127. of his last answere to m. iac. and in other places of their writings . 4. let them minde , whether enough hath not beene shewed them for the clearing of these errors in their constitution before cited . 5. whether they giue not their aduersaries aduantage if they should thus answere : besides that there bee false waies , which though they were held of ignorance , would disanul a company so gathered , from being gods church notwithstanding . thus haue they paued their way with snares , to entrappe themselues . had not the simple neede to take heede how they take vp wares vpon their credit ? and haue they not abused the world that publish in print , that they neyther receiue nor retaine any such as care not how they borrow and make no conscience to pay againe ? i doubt not but their owne hearts know how false this is , in io. nicholas and others . and heere it shall not be amisse to put downe a briefe opposition betweene their true description of a visible church , and their practise : that so the reader may the better perceiue the difference between their profession & practise , & this onelye in some few knowne particulars , by this description . first for the pastor : 1. the pastor must bee indued with much patience : but their pastor with much impaciencye , as hath appeared not alone in his dealing with m. ad : and his brother g : i. and his threatning to forsake his owne congregation when he was crossed of his minde : all which are discouered alreadye by his brother : page 126. 143. 144. and knowne to be true by other witnesses , but also in other particulars whereof some shall be after mencioned an angry man stirreth vp strife and a furious man aboundeth intransgression . 2. the pasto● of the true church must be louing & cōpassionate , but their pastor vnnatural & vnmerciful , & that to his own father , yea for the time which his father was with his brother g. i. hee would not so much as once see him , or relieue his necessitie , though he were not yet excommunicated frō thē this i heard iustified to his face before many witnesses , and he could not deny it : so true it is , that he that begetteth a foole , begetteth himselfe sorrow , as the wise man speaketh . for the teacher . 1. the teacher of a true church is sincere : their teacher steined with hypocrisie , as in his dealing concerning g. i , m. sl : 2. the teacher of a true church must bee vnreprooueable : but their teacher is spotted againe and againe with apostasie in their account as before hath beene noted . 3 , the teacher of the true church must take diligent care to keepe the church from errors : their teacher hath beene a meanes to bring in , and defend false doctrines , as the latter of those two before mencioned and others that may bee alleaged . for the elders : 1. the elders of a true church must bee indued with the spirit of god : their elder da : st : with the spirit of vncleanes . 2. the elders of a true church must see the lawes of god kept : their elder would defend the transgressing of them in himselfe and others . 3. the elders of a true church doe gouerne their owne houses orderly : but the elders mencioned most disorderly as else where is cited . 4. the elders aforesaid must bee louing : their elder d : st : cruell and tyranicall , in so much that some of their owne mēbers haue complained , that if they had a matter as cleare as the sunne against him , yet durst they not deale with him for it . 5. the elders of a true church , must be vnreprooueable : but their elder st : mer : hath ( as their teacher ) beene noted for apostasie . for the deacons : 1. the deacons of the true church of christ , must haue a pure conscience & must not bee giuen to filthy lucre . but their deacon christoph : bow : for his deceiuing of many poore , euē of their owne companye , of halfe that which the magistrates of narden had giuen them weekelye , was thereupon ( when it came to light ) through widdow colgates meanes called iudas the purse-bearer in narden for so doing : not to speake of many such like instances that by him may be giuen . and for the elders ioyntly : 1. the church of christ doe priuately admonish a priuate sin of a holy & louing affection : but their elders could call , r : w : before thē in the first place , for a priuate thing : & threatē her excōmunication for that which after ward for shame they let fall . and for the peoples vncleanes , cousning , disgracing , backe-biting , & vndermining one of another amongst themselues , it is a thing so common and well knowne of them at home and abroad , that i neede not in this place to speake further of it , heauen and earth can beare me witnesse against thē in those things : oh that they would apply vnto themselues and their practise that which the prophet ieremie speakes ! will they steale , murther and commit adulterie &c. and yet crie the temple of the lord , the temple of the lord ? are these then this beautifull ? yea moste wonderful church , rauishing the sences to conceiue of it ? are these the saints then marching in such a heauenly and gracious aray , where euery stone hath his beauty , his burthen , and his order , where no law is wrongfully wrested , or wilfully neglected , no truth hid or peruerted ? or rather haue they not deluded many poore soules , with such sweete wordes , who when they haue seene their estate , and their expectations so frustrated haue vsed these wordes : they neede neuer seperate themselues , if they liue thus : for any godly societie will quickely thrust them out from them so practising as they doe certainely this their description of a visible church is as cleare a testimony , and as pregnant a sentence of condemnation against themselues and their practise as may be possible . but yet that their hypocrisie may further appeare , let me giue the reader a taste also of their dealing in condemning others , euen in those things that they would and doe practise themselues , & that in these particulers . 1. they condemne others , for communicating with open offenders and yet practise it themselues as is before shewed . 2. for making men to sweare to accuse themselues , yet m. ih. practised the same to one i. l , and it is moreouer a common practise among them , both publikely and priuately , so to doe , yet would their elder dan , studly neuer so much as denye the matter of incest with his wiues daughter , for the clearing of himselfe , though hee were requested for the satisfying of weake btetheren so to doe . 3. they condemne the dutch churches , for baptising the seede of those that are not members of their church , and yet m. iohnson with the rest could offer to receiue m. deuksberies childe to baptisme , and were offended at g : i : for witstanding it : and yet he neyther was , nor would ioyne himselfe as a member vnto them . 4. in like manner doe they deale with the dutch churches of amsterdam , for hauing but one church in the cittie . and yet m. iohnson to vrge others to ioyne to them : ( which for diuers disorders amongst them would not so doe ) could alleadge that there was no warrant for two seuerall churches to be in one city in the scriptures . 5. in the place aboue quoted , they giue the like sentence against the dutch and french churches , for deciding matters by the elders , without the body of the church , and not suffring in this respect the 18. of mat rightly to be obserued amōgst them : and yet their elders , viz : m. fr : ih. and his fellowes , could decide one t. canadyes matter , who had accused himselfe to be rid of his wife , and this without their knowledge or consent : but the said canady not resting in the elders determination , brought it to their church , alleadging that he had iniury done to him , in that w , h could bee seperate frō his wife on his owne accusation of himselfe of adultery , & he could not . and further to iustify the bringing of matters in the third place to their elders ( for so they practise before the matter bee brought to the whole church ) they could alleadge the very same reasons against m. p. that they had before condemned in the dutch. and for the 18 , of mat. how it is made a matter of partialitie and enuie , yea a cloake to couer filthines withal at eueuery pinch amōgst them , would grieue ones heart to consider . 6. they condemne the dutch & french aforesaid for worshipping god in the idoll temples of antichrist , yet themselues suffer their poore to receiue the almes of the dutch , which is a sacrifice , phil 4. 18. in the same place : and if they giue thāks in receiuing their almes ( as duety both to god & man bindes them to doe ) then doe they likewise worship god in the idoll temples : neyther will it helpe them to say that it is not publique worship , which if they could prooue , yet the commaūdement deut. 12. if it be moral , as they account it , and must bee executed on these temples , then no ciuill vse of them may be had at all ; much lesse spirituall . 7. they witnesse against the dutch , for vsing the censure of suspension : and yet themselues , could suspend m. s many moneths together before his excommunication , a man for learning & giftes worthy of his preferment among the dutch , and to good too be of their fellowship . they condemne in others nonresidency , and yet their deacon d. br. could neere three quarters of a yere be absent frō their church , saue that twise or thrice , about his maisters businesse , hee came ouer from london to amsterdam to buye and sell wares . and this without any leaue of their church at amsterdam so to doe . how did hee that hath an office waite on his office ? 9. lastly , they passe the like sentence on the dutch , for becomming one body , with excommunicates , when as they excommunicate their owne members onely for hearing the word so much as preached amongst the dutch or french , yet are they one body with an excommunicate from the french church themselues . i might heere also note their like dealing with the dutch , for their obseruation of certaine holy daies : yet doe these a mē obserue these holy daies as much as the dutch , as well in shutting their shops , as also hauing their publique meetings for worshippe on these daies : neyther haue they in so many yeares space had time to debate and discusse this matter among them , as m. ioh. answered , sect. 3. to the preface , fiue yeares agoe . but it would be long and teadious to bring the manifolde examples that in this kinde may be alleadged , but vntill further ananswere , these may suffice . now let me aske them , are these things euill in others and good in them ? or as the poet speakes iustū non iustum non iustum-iustum quod vobis labet : or wil they say as medea in ouid , video meliora proboque deteriora sequor ? but rather wil they heare the apostle rom. 2 , 1. 3. what art thou that condemnest another and doest the same ? or the prophet ps. 50. 16 , why takest thou my word in thy mouth & hatest to be reformed ? or christ himselfe , hypocrite first cast the beame out of thine owne &c mat. 7. 5. one would little thinke that knew not their euill dealing that euer they would snatch vp that to serue their owne turne , which they condemne in others . and heere although i might declare their false and impertinent allegation of scripture , as if it were no sinne to take the name of god in vaine & make the scripture serue their fancy ; but because this hath beene done already in part by g , i. in his booke page 85 , which yet lyeth on them vnanswered , and vpon further occasion may be further manifested : i will pastle by this , as also their false accusations of whole chuches , as will appeare by comparing the 7. a accusatiō , with the practice of the duch churches , and come to the 4. thing that i proposed , namely , to shewe how they haue drawne the cursse of god on themselues by rash , vniust and wicked excomunication . 1 and heere i may speak of 27 or there abouts euen one halfe of them , at that time , and that of the elder sorte : which all within a very short space were cast out for refusing to come being sent for , to the meeting of the other part , although they answered , that on the suddaine they could not come at so short space and warning , for diuers busines , but would come at any other time which on both sides should bee thought conuenient , and although one of thē h. a. was distracted in minde : but they spared none , & this excommunication was confirmed by the pastor m. ih. howbeit , afterward was this excommunication repealed with fasting and prayer , and acknowledged to be rash and vniust , and all receiued in againe , and they that withstood their receauing in , were on the other side excommunicated . notwithstanding , after this againe , because their pastor was vrged to acknowledge his sinne by one of thē , c. s. they were all turned out againe . such dallying with the lords ordnances is fearefull . 2. as also how they deliuered diuers to sathan for hearing the word preached in the dutch church , though some were encouraged by their pastor and teacher so to doe , and promised to bee borne out in it by themselues , as namely m. s. yet after they brake , promise with him & cast him out . 3. or what will they say to this ? m. iohnson with diuers others of their leaders , put downe reasons vnder their hands , that apostates might : not beare office from the scriptures , and so practised ; yet after that m. ainsworthes apostasie was discouered , to keepe him in office , they altered their judgement and practise , and those that would not be brought to their will , they cast out likewise ; although they would neuer answere their owne reasons in writing , in like sorte as they had set them downe : no nor suffer their owne reasons to be read in their meeting , being requested thereunto . is not this to play sathās part to bring men to distruction , and not vse as good meanes to recouer them out againe ? m. ad. for lesse apostasie was not suffered to beare an inferior office among them . besides , they haue cast out w. a. for recalling a former schisme ; yet the said w. a. did & still doth stand to that acknowledgement which was vnder his hand , wherewith all they were satisfied . of this i with others haue written to them , but could get no answere ; yet that schisme was for not appealing to the dutch churches : and if they doe appeale , then hath m. ih. with the rest refused vtterly to be tryed by them . 5. others they haue likewise accursed , that being the parties innocēt desired to liue with the parties offendors , as man and wife together , as before they did in the marriage couenāt , vpon forgiuenes of their sin of adultery as already is mencioned in h c. & one homes his wife . another woman they excommunicated , because the brought not her childe to baptisme to them , when her husbād had forbid her in any case so to doe , who had likewise reprooued diuers grosse abuses amongst thē , and could receiue neyther answere nor due repentance thereof frō them ; the woman alleaged that tymothies mother was a faithfull woman , and one that brought vp herson in the feare of god from his child-hood , yet did she not circumcise him : and no other cause mencioned , but that his father was a grecian . 1. tim. 4. 6. 2. tim. 1. 5. act. 16 , 3. whereunto shee could get no answere . their a doctor indeede said , that tymothies mother was dead , and so he might haue said of moses , and the prophets too . their pastor maister f. i. made doubt of that scripture , and staid her excommunication , as saying he would not consent to it : yet after the womā had a little vnfoulded his euill dealing , the same maister f. ih. at the same time , could change his note and say , if that none else would , yet would he be the man that should excommunicate her . and indeede asterward they so did , and all that would not yeild to her excōmunicatiō , as namely mistris s. widdowe ch : and r. r. though the chiefe b magistrate of the cittie forbid them so to doe . diuers other reasons were alleadged about this matter , which we shal haue time to relate , after that we haue seene their answere to this , if they will be at leasure so to doe . now may i not wish that they had not verified the orators saying ? he that once passeth the boundes of modesty , becommeth impudent out of measure . thus doe they abuse the holy ordinance of god to satisfie their owne reuenging stomacks , non it a precipitanter in quenquam torquendum . is this the long suffering spirit of meekenes in recouering and seeking the lost ? or doe they not knowe that the curse is not in vaine , if it cleaues not to them to whome it is giuen it lights on the giuer ? are not then their bulls of excommunications so many curses on their owne pates ? shall i say to vse their owne allegation out of the prophet , as he loued cursing so shall it come vnto him , and as he loued not blessing , so shall it be farre from him , and as hee cloathed himselfe with cursing like a rayment , so shall it come into his bowells like water , and like oyle into his bones ? surelye god that will not holde him guiltles that taketh his name in vaine , will neuer such profanation of his name and ordinance to goe in vaine . and for some of them that are by these accursed i know they haue learned christ otherwise then so , as to feare the cursse causeles . the lord promised to abraham whose children they are , euen manye which they haue cast out , that hee would blesse them that blesse thee , and curse them that cursse thee . &c. and let them say as dauid of shimei , it may bee the lord will doe us good for their cursing this day , yea , let them acknowledge gods goodnesse towards them in drawing them out of their tents , as i doe his mercy towards me in keeping me frō ioyning with thē , being yet sometimes addicted too much vnto thē , before i perceiued their fearefull estate . i could cite many other things yet viler , as their sauadge and cruell dealing to fatherlesse children : as namely maister p. and maister b. his children , and other such like . but i like not now to saile further in this ocean , but will content my selfe with the confession of their owne members , w. c. i thought ( said he ) that they had beene all saints , but i haue found them all deuils , and this before many witnesses : yet is this man still a member amongst them . and for these excommunicators the lord giue them grace to repent , that they may neuer haue their portion among the cursed , to heare that fearefull sentence , goe ye cursed : which is the thing i wish them from my heart . amen . since then they haue confuted their owne writings , and giuen the black sentence of condemnation to the other churches of christ that haue beene , yea and themselues , by their description , and practise that amongst themselues which they condemne in others : let others take heede howe they pertake in their sinnes , least also they taste of their fond excommunications . and for the prophane ( not to speake here of the popish factiō drowned in superstitiō , whole fruites are treachery ) let them not heerby be hardned the more in their sinne , & prophanes , but rather seeing they that ftriue if they striue not lawfully , doe yet misse of the marke they ayme at ; what shall bee the end of those that set not forward at all in the waies of god ? let them remember that the gate is straite and the way narrow that leadeth to life , & the sewnes of those that finde it . and for the israel of god , the lord giue them holynesse & peace , without the which , they shall neuer see him to their comfort . hee that causeth the righteous to goe astray by an euill way , shall fall into his owne pit . pro. 28. 10. thine in christ , tho : white . since i had finished this treatise , i heare that tho : canady before mencioned , hath liued in sodometry with his boy , as the apostle speakes of the heathen , men with men wrought filthines , &c. and notwithstanding his great wayling , is now cast out , wherin it seemeth they haue forgotten their wonted allegation : if thy brother sinne against thee not alone vntil seuen times , but seuenty times seauen , thou shalt for giue him ; if hee returne againe and say it repenteth me &c. certaine briefe reasons proouing the vse of the lords prayer as a prayer . 1. an expresse commaundement neyther contrary to nature , nor analogy of faith , and agreeable also to the drift and tenor of the place , ought litterally to bee vnderstood and obeyed . but this , mat. 6. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. and luc. 11. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 say our father , &c. is such an expresse commaundement &c. ergo it is also so to be vnderstood and vsed . 2. it christ had taught onely to pray to this effect , then had he taught nothing but that which iohns disciples and al the faithful practised before : for the prayers of the saints , as of salomon , nehemiah , daniel , were to that effect before . 3. whatsoeuer scripture hath in euery respect the forme of prayer , that is not alone matter of doctrine , but hath beene vsed also as prayer . but this scripture math. 6. 9. hath in euery respect the forme of prayer : as , our father , giue vs , leade vs , and amen , annexed in the end : ergo . and indeed how can they tell , which were prayers and which not , if not by their forme of petition ? wherby they are distinguished from doctrines , & rules proposed in an other forme , as mat. 7. 7. & 21. 22 , 1. ioh. 5. 14. 4. in a duety to bee vsed of all , the holy ghost is plaine : but if those very words are not to bee vsed as a prayer , no christian for 1500. yeares & more , did vnderstand our lords meaning . but they say that the apostles neuer vsed those very wordes in prayer . i answere : 1. an expresse commaundemēt is warrant sufficient without example . 2. there is no example in the whole booke of gen : of the obseruation of the sabaoth for 2369. yeares space after the institution of it . gen. 2. neither to come nearer , is their any example of baptising , in the name of the father , sonne and holy ghost ) yet is the commaundement of christ sufficient warrant so to doe . compare math. 28. 19. with act. 10. 28. & 19. 5. 3. it is the anabaptists reasoning against childrens baptisme , asking for an example , whē otherwise there is sufficient warrant so to doe , yet are their pretences as good or better then m : iohnsons in refusing obedience to our lords commaundement for want of an example . 4. the prayers mencioned in the new testament , are such as were poured foorth vpon speciall occasion as act. 4. 24. ioh. 17. 5. let them shewe mee an example where euer the apostles prayed before their sermons ; if they can . finis . errata . in the preface the first line , leaue out ( dangerous ) for luc. 1. 14. 15. reade luc. 1. 74. 75. for h. c. read h cooke . page . 10-in the margent for latter , ( reade former . ) page 14 , line 22. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a15110-e150 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notes for div a15110-e310 page . 147. last answ . to m. iac. answere to m. h. answer to m. iun. let : as in the true descript : of a visible ch : mat. 12. 27 last answ : to m. la. last answ : to . m. iac : answ : to m. h. page 49. cic. orat : p. qu. last answ : to m. ia : page . 196. last answ : to m. ia. refut . of giff. pro. 12. 13 answ : to the pref . sect. 1. as namely in iudith holder and others . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . tertul : lib. de orat : mr. p. i. l. w. n. and others . robert bayly . h. c. answ : to m h : page . 202 , last answ : to ia. treatise so entituled . of his booke entituled a discourse of certaine troubles and excom . &c. by m. s. pro. 17. 21. & 20. 20. 1. tim , 3. before m. powell and others . w. f , & e.h. page . 157. page . 63 iohn landen . answ : to iun. letters page george ioh. consisting of so greate a multitude of adultery . w. holder . page . 65. last answ : to h. i. rom. 12. m. ih. &c. a m. fr : ih : and the rest . of the last answ : to m ia : plautus . a neh. 6. 8. pro. 24. 28. confess : with iun : let : page . 54 w. a. w. a. williā asplen . before his departing from them . hen. cooke . a and the onely doctor in the world in their account . b the head skout . pol. virg : li : 4o. cap. 12 ps. 109. 17. 18. ex. 20. 7. gen. 12. 3. 2. sam. 16. 12. w. clerk. math. 7. 13 heb. 12. 14 rom. 1. mat. 18. 22 luc. 17. 4. a guide unto sion. or certaine positions, concerning a true visible church wherein the nature of a true church is so plainely described, as all men may easily decerne the same from false assemblies. written by a learned and judicious divine. learned and judicious divine. 1638 approx. 49 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a15866 stc 26125 estc s102219 99838016 99838016 2373 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a15866) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 2373) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1056:19) a guide unto sion. or certaine positions, concerning a true visible church wherein the nature of a true church is so plainely described, as all men may easily decerne the same from false assemblies. written by a learned and judicious divine. learned and judicious divine. ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622?, attributed name. aut 32 p. 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conversion a guide unto sion . or certaine positions , concerning a true visible church . wherein the nature of a true church is so plainely described , as all men may easily decerne the same from false assemblies . written by a learned and judicious divine . jer. 50. 5. they shall aske the way to sion , with their faces thitherward , saying : come and let us joyne our selves to the lord , in a perpetuall covenant , that cannot be forgotten . printed at amstelredam , in the yeare 1638. a guide unto sion . or certaine positions , concerning a true visible church . this our english word church , through custome of speech is commonly used for the temple or place where people come together for the worship of god ; but they that are any thing exercised in religion , know , that it also signifieth the people ▪ which gather together for divine service , and this is the first and proper meaning of the word church , as it is used to expresse the original scripture termes , kahal & ecclesia . 2. this name church , we englishmen ( which came of the saxons ) have received from the saxon , german , and dutch names cyric , kirch , kerck ; whereby those nations now , do usually cal their temples or meeting-places : but the people which come togither in them , they cal the gemeine , and the gemeinte , that is to say , the comunialtie ; and we in our first english bibles caled it , the congreation . 3 as all religion is learned out of holy scriptures , so the name and doctrine of the church , is from thence to be deduced ; and there the church is called in hebrew a kahal or b kehillah , which signifieth a convocation or assemblie of people , & c ghnedah , that is to say a congregation : in greek it is named d ecclesia , that is in like maner , a convocation , or people called forth to an assembly , and sometime e synagogue , that is a congregation : which word is also vsed for the f place wherein the people assembled . 4. the hebrue word kahal is diversly used ; sometimes more generally for a great or universal multitude , as g of nations and h of peoples ; sometimes more particularly for an assembly of one nation , as of i the israelites ; sometimes for a part of them , as k the elders and governours ; of some l of the tribes of israel a part ; or some m of all the tribes , even n men women and children : o and indifferently for any assembly , and this not onely of gods people , but of p heathens also and infidels . 5. likewise the greek word ecclesia is of as large extent and signification ; used sometime for q the church generally ; sometime for a r particular church or congregation in a citie ; sometimes more particularly in s a house or familie ; sometimes ( in the greek version of the old testament ) for an assemblie t of governours , or company u of prophets , or congreation x of the people : and finally for y any assembly lawful or unlawful , of good men or of z evil . 6. these words thus general , are in more special sort both by the scriptures , & by use of speach among all religious people , restreyned and appelied to such assemblies and congregations as are called and gathered for divine exercises : and so our english name of church is attributed peculiarly to spiritual or religious assemblies , called ecclesiastical , and not to any other assemblies civil or political . 7. of religious or ecclesiastical assemblies generally considered , there any many sorts in the world ; all disallowed of god , save one sort onely which he acknowledgeth to be his , & hath separated to him self from all the rest . 8. the many false sorts , may be reduced unto fowr ; 1. the assemblies of pagans or heathen people , which professe some god , gods , or goddesses , whom they do worship , ignorantly , having a changed the truth of god into a lie , and so serving creatures , not ( in deed ) the creator , which is blessed for ever , amen . 2 the assemblies of iewes , who professe the true god ( after a sort ) and allow the writings of moses and the prophets , but abhorre christ iesus our saviour , and reject the new testament : 3 the assemblies of mahometists , as persians , turks , moores , &c. which professe also after their manner , that b one true god of whom moses and the prophets wrote , and acknowledge c christ to be a prophet sent of god , yea and the breath or spirit of god , yet beleeve they not that he is d god , or the e sonne of god , or saviour of the world , but follow the lies and fabels of their false prophet mahomet . 4. finally the church or assemblies of false christians , which professe god and his sonne christ , into whose name they are baptised ; but by their works doe deny him , and by their errours & heresies , doe overthrow the truth of religion . 9. the first three sorts , pagans , jewes , and mahometists , because of their so open and manifest denyall of christ and salvation by him ; are generally of christians reputed as no churches ; the latter are reputed no true but false churches , and so also do they esteem of true christians , and one of another . hereupon is continual controversie between true and false christians , which is the true church , and how it may be knowen . 10. to help the weak and doubtfull in this case , i will so truly and plainly as by the grace of god j can , describe the true church , which in holy scriptures is called the congreation and church f of god , consisting of godly & holy people named g saints ; opposed to the wicked or h malignant churches , the i synagogues of satan . 11. the true church is a people k called of god by l the gospel , m from the world , unto the n communion or followship of his son iesus christ , in whom they are o coupled and built togither , to be the habitation of god by the spirit . 12. the church is said to be a people , p nation or generation , because it consisteth of many persons , or of a multitude little or great : for though a particular christian is called , & of the church ; yet no one man is a church or congregation . 13. it is a people called ; q because every concourse or assemblie is not a true church : none of themselves can come unto this estate , unlesse they be r called or drawen thereunto : and they are sayd to be called of god ; because he s onely calleth and draweth men unto christ with a t holy calling ; and addeth them u to his church ; x no humane power or authority is able to doe it . 14. the gospel z noted to be the meanes of our calling , he maketh knowen unto his people outwardly by his a word b spoken and c written , and inwardly by d his holy spirit : and thus the church are all e the taught of god. 15. the estate out of which the church is called , is sayd to be out of or from the f world ; whereby is meant , first satan the g prince of this world , from whose power they are h turned unto god ; secondly , the wicwicked people of the world , called the i children of the devil , from whose communion and followship k in their religion , and all other wicked actions , we must be separated ; thirdly the corruption of nature in our selves , the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eyes , and pride of life , l all which are of the world , and which we must m hate and n crucifie , and so turn and become o like litle children , even born agayn , that we may see the kingdome of god. 16. the estate whereunto god calleth his church in this life , p is generally q to the communion ( or followship ) of his son iesus christ , as being their onely mediator and saviour , the prophet priest and king of the church ; which they beleeving aud professing , are also made partakers ( in a proportion & in their mesure ) of these three offices with him . 17. iesus christ is the r prophet raised up of god unto his people , to teach them all that god commanded him : which also he did , both by s himselfe , and by the ministery of his servants t sent of him , and as u all the treasures of wisedome & knowledge are hid in him , so him the church must x heare ; for all y heavenly wisedome and knowledge is to be learned of him ; and every person which shall not hear this prophet , z shall be destroyed out of the people . 18. this propheticall office of christ , he bath communicated with the church , by giving a to the same his word for their instruction and comfort , and b grafting the same within them , his spirit also as an c anoynting to reach them all things ; giving d gifts also , or ministers , to open and apply the same unto their sowles , likewise power and freedome by e witnes f profession and g practise , to h hold forth that word of life as lights in the world : therby to i preach unto others the faith of christ , to k edify and build up one an other dayly therein ; to l provoke unto love and to good works ; to m a admonish and n reprehend for evil and iniquity ; to o forgive and p comfort one another in the bowels of christ ; whose word therefore all ought to labour that it may q dwel plenteously in them ; that if any man speak , it may be r as the words of god. 19. iesus the son of god , is also the s great high priest or sacrificer of the church ; by whose obedience , and sacrifice or oblation of t his owne body and blood , the church is clensed u from all syn , and x reconciled to god ; by whose intercession the church , with the holy actions and oblations of the same , are y accepted of god , and made heires of blessing . 20. and this his priestly office , is so imparted to his church , as they have not onely interest in his z death and suffrings wherby they are reconciled to god , but also are themselves made a a holy priesthood , to offer up spiriutal sacrifices acceptable to god by him : giving up b their own bodies a living sacrifice ; c mortifying their members which are on earth , and d crucifying the flesh with th' affections and lusts ; offring up e contrite & brokē harts , with f sacrifices of confession to his name ; and praying not onely every man for himselfe , but g one for another , h doing and distributing to the necessities of the saincts ; i suffring affliction for the gospel ; and finally , if they be called thereunto , powring out their sowles unto k death for the truthes sake . 21. the lord iesus christ , is also the l governour and m king over sion gods holy mount , and sitteth at his fathers right hand and n reigneth til all his enemies be made his foot stool , being o a king judge , and law-giver to his people , p commanding & ruling them by his word and spirit , q judging them in justice and equity , preserving and defending them by his almighty power , r from all their enemies . 22. and this his kingly office he so communicateth with his church , as they are by him preserved and defended from all adversarie power ; freed from the dominion a of syn , and tyranny of b satan ; from subjection to c the world , and servitude d unto men : and restored to the joyfull libertie of the children of god , e the world and all things in it made theirs : that housoever they have still to combate f with the divil , to g wrastle against principalities and powers ; to suffer h hatred and affliction of the world ; and to warre with the fleshly lusts i which fight against the sowl : yet neyther k death ; nor life , nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come , nor height nor deepth , nor any other creature , shall be able to separate them from the love of god which is in christ iesus our lord ; who hath l made them kings & priests unto god even his father , and they shall m reigne on the earth ; till having served here their tyme , they come to n reign with him in glory , in the heavens for ever . 23. vnto the participation of these promises and heavenly graces , are o all people provoked by the gospell preached ; and such as obey the calling of god , and come unto christ , are united to him their head & mediator , from whom proceedeth the iustification & sanctfication of the church . 24. iustification is the partaking of christs p justice or righteousnes , in his fulfilling & obeying q the law of god , and discharging r all our debts and trespasses by his death ; so freeing us s from the curse , and setting us in full favour t with god and under his u blessing : which righteousnes of christs , is fully made ours , & imputed to us x by faith for our justification . 25. sanctfication is the partaking of christs holynes , by being y grafted with him to the similitude of his death and resurrection ; whereby the corruption of nature or z old man in us , becommeth crucified & a buried with him , and the b new man or image of god is put on and renewed dayly in a holy conversation . 26. hitherto of the churches union and communion with christ her head : now followeth the union of the churches members one with another : which is their c couplin● togither as one body by the communion 〈◊〉 one & the same d spirit , faith , & love . 27. the union of the members one wit● another is to be considered generally o● totally ; and particularly . generally as the church is called universall or catholik , comprehending the a whol family of god i● heaven and in earth , and the b fraternity o● brotherhood of all christians which are is the world ; in whom there is but c one faith , in d one and the same god by that one lord iesus christ , through one spirit . thu● have they all one father which is god , one mother , e ierusalem which is above ; and by the mediation of christ are all made f one , baptized by one spirit into g one body , and al● made to drink into one spirit . 28. more particularly , they that are called of god , and members of the church universal , are united and gathered into many g churches or congregation , in h several cities & countries i every of which curche being joyned togither in the profession & practise of the gospell of christ , k have his 〈◊〉 power and l presence with them , and is convene or come m togither in one , for the worship of god , & performance of publick duties . 29. whatsoever promise or blessing of god , is bestowed on the church on earth generally considered : the same may be apprehended and injoyed by every particular church , ( though not in like measure by all : ) as the q promises generall , and examples particular of the church r in corinth , and others mentioned in the scripture , do confirme . 30. the testament of christ sheweth us no provinciall nationall , emperial , or other like church , having several meetings or assemblies , and speciall pastors over the same : neyther , synce th' apostles , prophets and evangelists were takē from this world , are there any other lawfull bishops or church-governours , then bishops or overseers s of the particular churches ; neyther ever was ther other lawfull head , lord , or lords spiritual , of the church , then t iesus christ alone . 31. vnto the church are to be admitted , all unto whom the covenant and promise of god doth apperteyn ; and they are so ma●y a as the lord our god shall call ; and all those are called ( in the judgements of man , ) which having b heard the word of god , do professe c repentance from dead works and faith in god , by iesus christ the alone saviour of the world , and promise d obedience to the word , through the holy gost the sanctifier of the elect . such of e all sorts and estates of people in the world , are with their f leed to be received into , and nourished in the church ; their ignorance being holpen by g instruction , their weaknes h born by lenity , their faults corrected i with love and meeknes ; and their feeble consciences k comforted with the promise of god. 32. out of the church are l all such to b● kept , as are profane , wordly and wicked , u●till they be called of god unto repentance and faith in his promise ; for every churc● rightlie constituted , must consist of faithful● and holy persons . our reasons are these . 1. the scriptures m every where so teac● 2. all wicked men are forbidden expres●● by tthe word of god , n from medling wit● his covenant , or ordinances , 3. they have no● christ for their head o and therefore cannot be of his bodie . 4 , the godly and wicked are contraries , guided and let by different causes : now two contraries are not capable of one and the same forme . 5. only faithfull men worship god aright , please him , are accepted of him , and have right to the covenant of grace and seales thereof . the ordinarie officers , perpetuallie be longing to all true churches . are pastors teachers elders deacons and helpers the election and ordination of them must be made by the free chose of the congregation f of which they are members , and wherein they are to administer . and this is cleare . 1. because the apostles g who only taught christs commandements ▪ so established the primitive churches . 2. the people amongst whome they have been conversant can best judge of their fitnes both in ●espect of their persons and families . 3. it ●●rtheretn much the diligence and faithfulness of the minister , that they whose minister ●s have freely chosen him , as unto whome under christ they commit the most pretious treasure of their soule : as also it bindes the people to greater love and conscience of obedience of him and his ministry whome themselves have made choice of . 4. the church beeing a most free corporation , spirituall under christ the lord , is in all reason and equity to chuse her ministers and servants under him , unto whome also , she is . to giue wages for their service and labour . 34. the pastor must be apt to teach , a no young scholer , able to divide the word a right ; b he must be a man that loveth goodnes ; c he must be wise righteous , holy , temperate ; he must be of life unreproveable , as god steward ; d he must be generally wel reported of and one that ruleth his owne house hould under obedience with all honestie , he must be modest e humble , meeke , gentle , & loving : he must be a man of great patience , compassion , labour , and diligence : feed the sheep of christ in green and wholesome pastures of the word : pray for them , seale up to them the promises of god by the sacraments : he must alwayes be carefull and watchfull over the flock of christ , f defend it from ravenous beasts , g and the wolfe , and take the little foxes : discerne mens deseases , and apply the word according to every disease , and every time and occurrant : and these things he must doe with all willingnes and chearfulnes , not holding his office in respect of persons , but doing his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chiefe shepheard , &c. 35. the doctor * or teacher must be a man apt to teach , mighty in the scriptures , able to convince the gainsayers : he must be of life unreproveable , one that can governe his owne househould , he must be of manners sober , temperate , modest , gentle , and loving : hee must take diligent heed to keepe the church from errours : preserve knowledge , build upon the rock ( which is iesus christ ) gould , silver , and pretious stones , that his worke may endure the triall of the fire , and by the light of the same fire , reveale the timber , hay , and stubble of false teachers : and further , hee must deliver his doctrine pure , sound , & plaine , not with curiosity or affectation , but so that it may edifie the most simple , approving it to every mans conscience , that the church may increase with the increasing of god , and grow up unto him which is the head christ iesus . 36. that this is an office different from that of the pastor , is manifest by these reasons . 1. the apostle doth so distinguish them one from another . rom. 12 , 7 , 8. ephes. 4 , 11. 2. their gifts appeare to be divers , 1 cor. 12 , 8. 3. the pastor is commaunded to take one course in teaching , the doctor another , rom. 12 , 7 , 8. 4. this distinguishing of them makes more for the building of the church , then to unite and make them one . 37. the third officers , † are governours , or ruling elders ; these men must be of life likewise unreproveable , sober , gentle , loving , temperate : governing their owne families orderly : they must bee men of wisedome , knowledge , and sound judgement , able to discerne betweene cause and cruse , betweene plea and plea , and accordingly to prevent and redresse evils . their especiall care must be to see the ordinances of god truly taught and practised , as well by the officers in doing their duties uprightly , as to see the people obey willingly & readily : it is their dutie to see the congregation holily and quietly ordered , and no way disturbed by the contentious and disobedient , froward and obstinate : not taking away the liberty of the least , but uphoulding the right of all , wisely judging of times and circumstances . they must be readie assistants to the pastor and teacher , helping to beare their burden , but not intruding into their office . 38. jt is necessarie that these officers bee perpetuallie resident upon their charge . for 1. a minister is a shepheard , and his charge a flock ; now a shepheard hath a flock to feed it continually . 2. wheresoever god placeth a man , there is daylie need of his labour and care . 3. the people are in daunger of harme if they be not watched over day and night . 4. the church requireth an officers residencie with her , as a dutie of him . 5. if they doe otherwise , they cannot give their people a good example , neither will there belove & familiarity between them . 39. deacons * must be men of honest report , indued with the holy ghost , they must be grave , temperate , not given to excesse , nor to filthy lucre : faithfully ought they to gather and collect by the ordinance of the church , the goods and benevolence of the faithfull , and by the same direction diligently and trustily to distribute them according to the necessitie of the saints . further , they must inquire and consider of the portion and the wantes both of the officers and other poore , and accordingly relate to the church that provision may be made . 40. that the deacons office is not to meddle with the word and sacraments , but onely to collect the benevolence of the faithfull , and faithfully to distribute the same : is cleare by these reasons . 1. it is an apostolicall institution , that these should attend upon the provision for the poore , act. 6 , 4. 2. the scripture maketh it an ordinarie and distinct office from others in the church , and not to be mingled with any other , rom. 12 , 8. 3. no man can in any tollerable measure discharge the office of a minister and a deacon also , act. 6 , 2. 4. the ministeries of the word are perfect without it . 41. this office was instituted , 1. that the faithfull might bee the more free from feare , and follow their owne callings diligently . 2. that the church might be the more enriched with heavenly and spirituall blessings , for the receives grace and gifts , for the discharge of each calling . 3. to stirre men up to helpe the poore the more willingly , considering that the lord hath appointed a speciall office for that purpose . 4. that there should bee no complaints , but that all the poore might be comforted against their povertie & wants . lastlie , to shew that as god hath created soule and body , so hee takes care for both . 42. the widowes a or deaconesses must be women of 60 , yeares of age at the least . for avoyding of inconveniences : they must be well reported of for good workes , such as have nourished their children , such as have beene harberous to strangers , diligent and serviceable to the saints , compassionate and helpefull to them in adversitie , given to every good worke , continuing in supplications and prayer day and night : they must minister to the sicke , lame , weary and defeated such helpefull comforts as they need , by watching , tending and helping them . further , they must shew good example to the young women , in sober , modest , and godly conversation , avoyding idlenes , vaine talke , and light behaviour . 43. these are the necessarie and onely ordinarie functions , * and offices , which our saviour hath ordained in his church , unto the due administration whereof , he hath promised his blessing to the end of the world . and these are perpetuall and to continue for ever , and beside these it is unlawfull for men ( following the devises of their owne braine ) to institute or ordaine any in the churches of god. 44. these offices though they be divers & severall , yet are they not severed , least there should be a division in the body : a but they are as members of the body , having the same care one of another , joyntly dooing their severall duties to the service of the saints : neither can any of these offices bee wanting without grevious lamenes and apparent deformitie of the body , yea violent iniury to the head christ iesus . 45. as every christian congregation hath power and commandement to elect & ordaine their owne ministers according to the rule in gods word prescribed : so right and power to practice all other ordinances of the lord , & namely to b cut of any memfrom the body : provided , that holy order of proceeding bee keept , which christ in his will and testament hath left us . 46. the rule of christ for excommunication is thus : if the fault be private , holy and loving admonition and reproof is to be vsed , with an inward desire and earnest care to winne their brother : but if hee will not heare , yet to take two or three other brethrē with him , whome he knoweth most meet for that purpose , that by the mouth of two or three witnesses , every word may be confirmed : and if he refuse to heare them , then to declare the matter to the church , which ought severally and sharpely to reprehend , gravely to admonish , and lovingly to perswade the partie offending : shewing him the heynousnes of his offence , and the danger of his obstinacie , and the fearfull judgments of the lord. lev. 19. 17. 18. mat. 18. 15. devt . 19. 15. mat. 18. 16. 47. all this notwithstanding the church is not to hold him as an enemie , but to admonish him and pray for him as a brother ; prooving if at any time the lord will give him repentance . for this power is not given them to the distruction of any , but to the edification of all . 2. thes. 3. 15. 2. cor. 10. 8. & 13. 10. 48. if this preveale not to draw him to repentance , then are they in the name and power of the lord iesvs with the whole congregation , reverently in prayer to proceed to excommunication , that is unto the casting him out of their congregation and fellowship , covenant and protection of the lord , for his disobedience & obstinacie , and committing him to sathan , for the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord iesus , if such be his good wil and pleasure , mat. 18. 17. 1 cor. 5. 11. 49. if the offence be publike , the partie is publiquely to be reproved , and admonished : if he then repent not , to proceed to excommunication , as aforesaid . 1. tim. 5 , 20. gal. 2. 14. ios. 7. 19. 2 cor. 7. 9. 50. further they are to warn the whole congregarion and all other beleevers to hold him as a heathen and publican , and to withdraw themselves from him , from all spirituall communion , and civil familiaritie , so farre as may be without the violation of any naturall or civil bond . 51. that obstinate sinners after due conviction and patience , must be censured appeareth 1. by the commandement of christ a & practice of the apostolicall b churches . 2. that the worship & service of god may c be kept & preserved from pollution , contempt and prophanation . 3. that the sinner may se his fault , be humbled d for it , and so saved in the day of the lord. 4. that the honour and good name of the church may be preserved , the which would be lost e if vile persons were suffered therein . 5. to prevent the infection f of others . 6. that by the zeale , e and holynes of the church , they without g may be gained to the gospell . 7. to glorifie gods great name which is much impeached h by the unholy walking of those which professe his truth . 8. that others may feare , i for if this course be omitted , it may be a meanes to embolden many to doe the like . 52. the repentance of the partie must be proportionable to the offence , viz. if the offence be publique , publique : if private , private : humbled , submissive , sorrowfull , unfained , giving glorie to the lord. lev. 19 , 17 , 18. pro. 10. 12. rom. 12. 19 , and 13 , 10 , and 14. 1. 53. there must great care bee had of admonitions , that they be not captious or curious , finding fault where none is ; neither yet in bitternes or reproach : for that were to destroy and not to save our brother : but they must be carefully done , with prayer going before , they must bee seasoned with truth , gravitie , love and peace . mat. 18 , 15. and 26 , 8. gal. 6 , 1 , 2. 2 tim , 2 , 24. mark. 9 , 50. ephes , 4 , 29 , iam. 5 , 15 , 19 , 20. 54. more over , the scripture shewes us , that discreet , faithfull and men able to speake unto edification exhortation and comfort , ( though not yet in office of ministery ) may open & apply the scriptures in the church , for . 1. in the iewish church a men out of office had liberty either in the temple or synagogue , publiquely to use their gifts . 2. in the time of the apostles b and primitiue churches men so preached , and the lord himselfe approved it , and that without any exception or prohibition to the contrarie 3. christ commanded c this thing : and so did his apostles afterward . 4. d the prohibiting of woemen e ( not extraordinarie inspired ) to speak in the church : clearely imports a liberty therein giuen unto men their husbands and others . 5. otherwise it would follow , either that the people should be untaught f or that now ( after the generall apostasy of anti-christ ) g there might be lawfull pastors and ministers had , before there were a church to chuse them , or a flock for thē to watch over ; or that unlawfull ministeries h might be reteynd & executed , for bringing men to the knowledge & obedience of the gospell : all which are against the word of god. lastly much good comes by this meanes , as . 1. the glory of god , in the manifestation i of his manifould graces 2. that the gifts in men be not quenched . 3. for the fitting and trying of men for the ministery . 4. k for the preserving pure of the doctrine of the church ; l which is more in danger , if some one or two alone only be heard and speake . 5. for debating and satisfying of doubts if any arise . 6. for the edifying of the church and conversion of others . 55. as christ ( our heavenlie prophet ) hath set forth unto us in the new testament the manner and forme of the gathering and constitution of the visible church : so hee requires everie faithfull christian , to make himselfe a member of some particular congregation , and there to present their bodies and soules , and to bring the gifts which god hath given them . our reasons are these : 1. otherwise they are not to be admitted unto the holy sacraments , a the seales of gods covenant : for these ought not to be administred unto any , except they be added unto some visible church : unto which the publick ordinances and ministery doth appertaine . 2. because of the presence of god b & christ : if we will come to god , we must come to that place where his presence is in a speciall manner , and where he is to be found , of all such as seeke him with their whole heart . 3. c how else have we respect to all the commaundements . 4. that the saints may mutually edifie each other , d and this followes upon their joyning together in the fellowship of the gospell . 5. to consider e , or observe our brethren as wee ought , watch over them , and seeke to reduce them unto a streight walking when they goe astray . 6. because of gods covenant f and promise : for those which are in the church , are directly ( as it were ) joyned to his blessings and graces , the which are powred forth there abundantly . 56. such as joyne themselves unto true visible churches ought first to goe unto the a elders , that by them their cause may be propounded to the whole congreg : afterward they are to come into the publick assemblie , and there make confession b of their faith openly , and promise to walke in the obedience of christ : and thus beeing found worthy , by the consent of the whole church they are joyfully to be received into the holy communion of saints . 57. as every established church , hath power and liberty to chuse their owne spirituall and ecclesiasticall officers : so , be it observed , that these officers are tyed unto that only congregation * of which they are members , and by which they were elected into office , and ought not to beare any ecclesiasticall office in another , neither can they administer the holy things of god , as officers and by vertue of a ministeriall calling any where , but in their owne congregation ; no. more then a major or bayliefe can execute civill justice out of the limitts and bounds of their owne priviledged corporation . 58. it is sure , that christ jesus hath not subjected any church or congregation , of his , to any other superior ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , then unto that which is within it selfe : a so that if a whole church or congregation shall erre in any matter of faith or religion , noe other church , or church-officers , have ( by any warrant from the word of god ) power to censure , punish or controile the same , but are only to advise them : and so to leave their soules to the immediate judgement of christ. 58. it is the dutie of every christian congregation to be carefull , that no infant be admitted unto baptisme a whose parenn ( one at least ) are not members of some perticular church . for. 1. if they doe b , by this meanes gods name is taken in vaine 2. c the holy sacrament prophaned , d 3. the church of god de filed : d. 4. the minister a covenant breaker . e 5. there is no precept nor example in the scripture for it . 6. such a practice hindereth many parents from embraceing the way and order of the gospel , and causeth them to live and die libertines . 7. it induceth ignorant people to conceive such an absolute necessity of baptisme , as that men cannot be saved without it . 58. all christians are bound to practice gods ordinances for his visible church under the gospell although the magistrate , * allow not thereof , yea forbid them upon pean of death : for as the opprobation of men and angels ; makes not the wayes of god , and workes of religion never a whitt the more lawfull , but onely , the more free from bodily danger : so neither can their disallowance make unlawfull such duties of religion as the word of god , approveth , not can they give pispensation to any person , to for beare the practice thereof . there is more of this subject shortly to be publyshed . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a15866-e110 a deut. 5. 22 b deut. 33 4 c exod . 16. 1. psal. 111. 1. d math. 16 18. act. 7 38. e ●am . 2. 2. and in the greek of the old test. often deut. 5. 22. exod. 16. 3. &c. f luk. 7. 5 act. 18. 7. g gen. 35. 11. ●er 50. ● h gen. 48 4 ezek. 〈…〉 . 24 i exod . 12. 6. k 1. chrm. 13. 1. 2 4. 5 and 29. 1. 6. 2. chron. 1. 2. 3. l 2. chron. 20. 4. 5. m 2. chron. 30. 10. 13. 25 n ezra . 10 i. o gen. 49. 6. p ezek . 27. 27 and 32. 22. & 38. 4. 7. &c. q ephe. 5. 23. &c heb 12. 23. r 1. cor. 1. 2 s rom. 16. 5. 1. cor. 16. 19. colos . 4 15. t 2 chron. 1. 3. &c. u 1. sam. 19. 20. x psal. 107. 32. y ezek. 32. 3 act. 19. 32 39. 41. z psal. 26. 5. a rom. 1. 25. b alkoran ; c azoar 4. azor 2. & 4. & 11. d azoar 12. &c. e azo . 19. ●0 . f nehem. 13. 1. 1 tim. 3. 5. 14. g 1. cor 1. 2. psal. 89 5. & 149. 1 h psal. 26 5 i rev 2 9 k 1 pet. 2. 9 l 2 thes. 2 14. m iohn 17. 6. 9. 14 & 15. 19 n i cor. 1. ● o ephe. 2. 21. 22. p 1 pet. 2. 9 q ephe. 4. 1 heb. 9. 15. r rom 9. 11 12. 24. song . 1. 3. s ioh 6. 44 t 2. tim. 1. 9. u act. 2. 47. x 2 chron 30. 6. 10. 12 rom. 8. 30. z 2 thes. 2 2● . a cor. 5. 19 b act. 5. 20. c 〈◊〉 20. 31. d nehem . 9. 20. 1 cor 2. 10 12 e ioh. 6 45. f ●●h . 15. 19 & 17. 69 g ioh. 12. 31. h act. 26. 18. i 10. k exo. 34 15. prov. 15. 8 psal. 16. 4 eph. 5. 11. 2. cor. 6. 17. l ioh. 2. 16 m rom. 7. 15. jude . 23. n gal. 6. 14. o mat. 18. 3 p ioh. 3. 3. q 1. cor 1 9 r deut. 1 15. 18. act. 3. 22. 26. s mat. 2. 5. &c t ioh. 13. 20. u col. 2. 3. x mat. 17. 5 y joh. 3. 13 & 6. 68. rev. 5. 1. 5 z act. 3. 23. a psa. 147 19. 20. jsa . 59. 21 rom. 15. 4 b iam. 1. 21. c 1 joh. 2. 20. 27. d ephe. 4. 8. 11. 1. cor. 12. 28. e jsa . 43. 10. f 2 cor 4. 13 g mat. 28 h phil. 2. 16. i act. 8. 4. k 1. thes. 5. 11. l heb. 10. 24. m rom 15. 14. n levit. 19. 17. o lnk. 17. 3. p 1. thes. 4. 18. q col. 3. 16. r 1. pet. 4. 11. s heb. 4. 14. 20. rom. 5. 19. t heb. 10. 5. 10. u 1 ioh 1. 7 x rom. 5. 10. y heb. 7. 25. and 9. 24. and 13. 15. rev. 8. 3. 4. z isa. 53. 5. rom. 5. 8. 10. a 1. pet. 2. 5. b rom. 12. 1 c col. 3. 5. d gal 5. 24 e psal. 51. 17. f heb. 13. 15. g ephe. 6. 18 h heb. 13. 16. i 2 tim 2. 3. 9. k heb. 12. 4 2 tim , 4. 6 l mat. 2. 6 m john. 12 and 15. n 1 cor. 15. 25. o jsa . 33. 22. p mat. 28 20. q psal. 72. r iohn . 10. 28. & 16. 33. rev 19. 11. 21. a rom. 6. 14. b 1. joh 5. 18 rom. 16. 70. c 1. ioh. 5. 4. d 1. cor. 7. 23. e 1 cor. 3. 22. f 1 pet 5. 8. 9 g ephe. 6. 12. h joh. 15. 19. & 16. 32. i 1. pet. 2. 11. k rom. 8. 38. 39. l rev. 1. 6. m rev 5. 10 n 2 tim. ● 12. ioh. 17 24. 1 thes. 4. 17. o mat. 28. 19. rom. 16. 26. p phil. 3. 9. q rom. 5. 19. r joh. 1. 7. s gal. 3. 13. t rom. 5. 10 u gal. 3. 9 14. x rom. 3. 25. 30. & 4. 24. 25. y rom. 6. 5. z verse . 6 a auers . 4. b ephe. 4. 22. 24. col. 3. 10. c ephe. 2. 21. rom 12. 4 5. d 1. cor. 12. 4. 8. 9. 11. 12. 13. ephe. 4. 4. 5. 15. 16. a ephe. 3. 15. b 1. pet. 5. 9. c eph. 4. 5. d 1 cor 8. 6. & 12. 4. 5. &c. eph. 2. 18. & 4. 4. 5. 6. e gal. 4. 26. f iohn . 17. 21. g 1 cor , 12. 13 h reu 1. 11. i act. 2. 41. 42. 47. & 5. 13. heb. 10. 25. k 1 cor. 5. 4. l mat. 18. 20. m 1 cor. 11. 20. 33. & 4. 5. q exod. 20 24. mat. 18. 20. jsa . 4. 5. r 1. cor. 3. 22. 23. & 1. 7. 30. &c. rev. 2. and 3. s act. 20. 17. 28. phil. 1. 1. 1 pet 5. 1. 2 t col. 1. 18. i cor. 8. 6. and 12 ; 5. a act. 2. b rom. 10 17. eph. i 13. c act. 2. 38. 41. & 8. 37. d exod. 19. 5. 8. 2. chron. 34. 31. luk. 1. 17. ioh. 2. 26. rom. 1. 5. mic. 5. 4. e gal. 3. 28 f gen. 17. 7. 1. cor. 7 14. g gole . 1. 28. & 3 16. h rom. 15. 1. &c. i gal. 6. 1. lnvit . 19. 2. 17. k 1 thes 5. 14. l mat. 3. 7 2. cor. 6. 14. &c. 27. & 22. 15. isa. 35. 8. 9. zach. 14. 21. m rev. 21. mat. 18. 17. 1. cor. 5. 5. 11. 12. tit. 3. 10. num. 15. 30. 31. n iohoa . 17. 20. &c. o 1. cor. 14. 36. gal. 5. 17 f act. 6 , and 14 , 13 and 15 , 2. 3 , 22. 2 cor. 8 , 19. g act. 1 , 15. 24 , & chap. 6 , 2 , 3 , 4. 1 timot. 3 2. 3 , 4 , 5. a 1 tim. 3. 1. b 2 tim. 2 , 15. c tit. 1 , 9. d 2 tim. 4 , 2 , tit. 17 , 8. e numb . 12. 3 , 4. esa. 50 , 4 , 56 , ier. 3 , 15 , eze. 34 , 18. 1 tim 5. 21. f ps. 23. levit. 10 , 10. g loh. 10 , 11 , 12. song . 2 , 15 * 1 tim. 3. chap. tit. 1 , cha . 2 tim. 2 , 15. 1 cor. 1 , 17 , and. 2 , 4. 1 cor. 3 , 11 , 12 , mal. 2 6 , ephes. 2 , 20. heb 6 1. 1 cor. 1 , 17. 1 tim. 4. 16 , and 6 , 20. † 1 tim. 3 & 5. chap. num. 12. 24 25. 2 chro. 10 8 , act. 15 , numb 11 16 , deu 1 13 , and 18. exo. 39 , 42 1 tim. 3 , 15 , gal. 2 , 45 , colos. 4 16 , 17 rom 12 , 8 1 cor. 11. 16 & 14 33. act 20 , 1 pet. 51 heb 54 * act. 6 , 3 1 tim. 3 , 8 , 9. rom , 12 , 8 a 1 tim. 5 9. 10. rom. 12 , 8 * 1 cor. 1● 28. rom. 12 , 8 ▪ 9 ephes. 4.8 , 11 , 12 13. a luk 9 , 46 , 47. ioh. 13. 12 17. 1 cor. 12. 12. 25 , 28 ephes. 4 , 11. 12. 13. 16. b mat. 18 17 18. 1 cor. 5 , 4. 5. 2 thes. 3. 5. with levit. 24 14. 15. 16 ●3 . mat. 18. 17. 1. cor. 11. a mat. 18 b 1. cor. 5. c hag. 2. 13. d 1 cor. 5. 9. 2. thes. 2. 14. 2. cor. 6. e rev. 2. 14. 15. f heb. 12 15. g mat. 5. 16. h eze. 36 20 , 23. i deut 17. 12. 13. a luk. 2. 42. 46. 47. & cap. 4. 16. 17. 18 act. 8. 4. & cap. 11. 19. 20. 21 & cap. 13. 14. 15. & cap. 18. 24. 25. b act. 19. 18. 24. & cap. 18. 24 25. c luk. 9. 1 & cap. 10. 1. d d rom. 12. 9. 1. pet. 4 10. 11. 1 cor. 14. 34. 35. e 1 timot. 2. 11. 12. 1 cor. 14. 34. 35. f pro. 29. 18 rom. 10. 17. 1. cor. 1. 17. rom 14 6. 7. g 2 thes. 2. 4. rev. 18. 4. & 14. 12 h pro. 9. 3. 2 kiug . 23. 5. ier. 51. 26. zach. 13. 4. act. 14. 13. ezr. 2. 6. 63. i pet. 4. 10. 1 1. k 1 thes. 5. 19. l 1 tim. 3 2. 1 cor. 14. 35. a mat. 26. 26 . ●9 and 28. 19. 20. exo. 12. 43. 48. and 20. 7. ast. 2. 38 41. and 8. 36. 37. gen. 17. b rev. 1. 13. 1 tim. 3. 5. psal. 65. 5. c psal. 119 6. luk. 1. 5 d iud. 20. rom. 1. 12 1 cor. 11. 27. e 1. thes. 5. 14. heb. 3 12 , 13. & 1. 24. 25 f psal. 133 3. esa. 60 , 15. deut. 4. 12 , 13 a 1 cor. 14 ult . b act. 19 , 18. rom. 15. 9. 10. psal. 18. 49. * act. 20 , 28. 1 cor. 7 , 17. a gal. 5. 1. mat. 3. 2. eph. 2. 19 1 cor. 12. 20. act. 2. 38. 39. & 16. 15. 33. mat. 28. 19. 20 gen. 17. 7 8. 12. eolos . 2. 12 13. rom. 9. 41. cor. 7. 14. b ex. 20. c mal. 1. 7 12. heb. 10. 29. hag. 2. 14. 5. ezech. 44 7. e mal. 28. * act. 4. 19. 20. danil . 6. 9. 10. mat. 10. 28. rev. 2. 3. cap. the confession of faith of certayn english people living in exile, in the low countreyes. together with a brief note of the speciall heads of those things wherin we differ fro[m] the church of engla[n]d. true confession of the faith, which wee falsely called brownists, doo hould ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622? 1607 approx. 88 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a08068 stc 18435 estc s119852 99855058 99855058 20528 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a08068) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 20528) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1525:06) the confession of faith of certayn english people living in exile, in the low countreyes. together with a brief note of the speciall heads of those things wherin we differ fro[m] the church of engla[n]d. true confession of the faith, which wee falsely called brownists, doo hould ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622? johnson, francis, 1562-1618. 72 p. g. thorp], [amsterdam : reprinted in the yeare. 1607. place of publication and printer's name from stc. an edition of "a true confession of the faith, which wee falsely called brownists, doo hould" which is attributed to henry ainsworth and francis johnson. reproduction of the original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate 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variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brownists -early works to 1800. 2005-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-05 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2005-05 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the confession of faith of certayn english people , living in exile , in the low countreyes . together with a brief note of the special heads of those things wherin we differ frō the church of englād . 2 cor. 4 , 13. we beleev : therefore have we spoken . harmony of confess . in the preface set before it , in the name of the french & belgick churches . the prelates & priests alway cry out , that we are hereticks , schismaticks , and sectaryes . howbeit let them know that the crime of heresy is not to be imputed to them whose faith doth wholly rely vpon most sure grounds of the scripture ; that they are not schismaticks , who entierly cleave to the true church of god , such as the prophets & apostles do describe vnto vs ; nor they to be coūted sectaryes , who embrace the truth of god which is one and alwayes like it self . reprinted in the yeare . 1607. to the reverend and learned men , students of holy scripture , in the christian vniversities , of leyden in holland , of sanctandrewes in scotland , of heidelberg , geneva , and other the like famous schooles of learning in the low countreys . scotland , germany , & france . the english people exiled , in the low coūtreys , wish grace and peace in iesus christ. this true confession of our fayth , in our iudgment wholly agreable to the sacred scripture , we here exhibit vnto al to be discussed : and vnto you ( reverend sirs ) we dedicate it for two causes . first , for that we know you are able in respect of your singular knowledg in the scriptures , and hope you are willing in respect of your syncere piety , to convince our errours by the light of gods word , if any where we erre out of the way . secondly , that this testimony of christian faith , if you also fynd it to agree with the word of truth , may by you be approved , eyther in silence or by writing , as you shal think best . it may be , we shal be thought very bold , that being despised of all , yet doubted not to sollicite you so many and so great learned men . but this we did , partly at the request of others to whom we would not deny it ; partly with desire to have the truth through your help more defended & furder spread abroad ; partly constreyned by our exile & other calamities almost infinite ; partly also moved with love of our native countrey , and of these wherein now we live and others else where ; wishing that al may walk with a right foot to the truth of ehe g●sspel , & praying daily vnto god , that the great work of restoring religion & the church decayed , which he hath happily begun in these latter tymes , by our gracious soveraigne and the other princes of these countreyes & ages ( his servants ) he would fully accomplish , to the glorie of his name & ●ternal salvation in christ of his elect in al places of the earth . touching the causes which moved vs to publish this confession of faith , & to forsake the church of eugland as now it standeth , we have truly & as briefly as we could related them , in the preface to the reader , hereafter following : & therefore thought here to omit the repetition of them . the lord iesus alway preserve you & your vniversityes to the prayse of his name , the ornament of good learning , th● propagation & maintenance of his pure religion . from amsterdam in the low countreyes . the yeare of the last patience of the saints , 1598. ❧ the preface to the christian reader . it may seem strange vnto thee ( christian reader ) that any of the englysh nation should for the truth of the gospell be forced to forsake their native country , & live in exile , especially in these dayes when the gospel seemeth to have free passage & florish in that land . and for this cause have our exile ben hardly thought of by many , and evil spoken of by some , who know not ( as it seemeth ) eyther the trew estate of the church of england , or causes of our forsaking and separation from the same , but hearing this sect ( as they call it ) to be every where spoken against , have ( without all further search ) accounted and divulged vs as heretickes , or schismatickes at the least . yea some ( and such as worst might ) have sought the increase of our afflictions , even here also if they could : which thing they have both secretly and openly attempted . this hath sathan added vnto all our former sorrowes , envying that we should have rest in any part of the inhabited world , and therfore ceaseth not to make warre with the remnant of the womans seed , which keep the comcōmaundements of , god and the testimony of iesus christ. but the lord that brought his former israel out of egypt & when they walked about from nation to nation , from one kingdome to an other people , suffered no man to do them wrong , but reproved kinges for their sakes : the same lord yet liveth to mainteyn the right of his afflicted servantes , whō he hath severed , and dayly gathereth out of the world , to be vnto himself a chosen generation , a royal priesthood , a peculiar people & israell of god : he is our hope and strength and help in troubles ready to be found , he will hyde vs vnder his winges , and vnder his feathers we shall be sure , vntill these miseries be overpast . and though we could for our partes wel have borne this rebuke of christ in silence , aud left our cause to him who iudgeth iustly al the children of men : yet for the manifestation & clearing of the truth of god from reproches of men , and for the bringing others together with our selves to the same knowledg and fellowship off the gospel , we have thought it needfull & our duty to make knowen vnto the world , our vnfeyned fayth in god , and loyall obedience towards our prince and all governers set over vs in the lord , together with the reasons of our leaving the ministery worship and church of england . which are not ( as they pretend ) for some few faultes & corcorruptions remayning , such as we acknowledg may be found in the perfectest church on earth : neyther count wee it lawfull for any member to forsake the fellowship off the church for blemishes and imperfections , which every one according to his calling should studiously seek to cure , and to exspect and further it , vntill eyther there follow redresse or the disease be growe incureable , & the candlestick be moved out of the place . but we having through gods mercy learned to discerne betwixr * the true worship of god & the antichristiā leitourgy ; the true ministery of christ & antichristiā prelacy ; the ordināces of christs testament & popish canons : have also learned to leave | the evill & choose the good , to forsake babell the land of our captivitie , & get vs vnto sion the mount of the lordes holynes , and place where his honour dwelleth . but first we desire thee , good reader , to vnderstand , and mynd that we have not in any dislyke of the civill estate and politick government in that common wealth , which we much like and love , separated our selves from that church : neyther have we shaken of our alleageance and dutifull obedyence to our soveraigne prince , the honorable counsellers , and other magistrates set over vs , but have alwayes and still do reverēce love and obey them every one in the lord , opposing our selves against all enemyes forreigne or domestical : against all invasions , insurrections , treasons or conspiracies by whomsoever intended against the prince and the state , and are ready to adventure our lives in their defence , if need require . neither have our greatest adversaryes ever ben able to attaint vs of the least disloyalty in this regard . and though now we be exiled , yet do we dayly pray & wil for the preservation peace & prosperity of our soveraigne prince & al the dominions of that kingdome . and whereas we have been accused of intrusion into the magistrates office , as going about our selves to reforme the abuses in that land , it is a mere malicious calumnie , which our adversaries have forged out of their own hart . we have alwayes both by word & practise shewed the contrary , neyther ever attempted or purposed any such thing : but have endevored thus only to reforme our selves and our lives according to the rule of gods word , by absteyning from al evill & keeping the cōmandements of iesus : leaving the suppressing and casting out of those remnants of idolatry , vnto the magistrates , to whom it belongeth . and further we testify by these presents vnto all men , & desyre them to take knowledg heerof , that we have not forsaken any poynt of the true ancient catholicke and apostolike fayth professed in our land : but hold the same groundes of christian religion with them stil , agreeing lykewise herein , with the dutch , scottish , germane , french , helvetian , and al other christian reformed churches round about vs , whose confessions published , we cal to witnes our agreement with them , in matters of greatest moment , being conferred with these articles of our sayth following . the thinges then onely against which we contend , & which we mislike in the e●glish parish assemblies , are many reliqu●s of that m●n of synne ( whom they pretend to have abandoned ) yet reteyned among them , and with a high hand maynteyned , vpholden , and imposed . the particulers whereof ( being almost infinite ) cannot wel of vs be set down , and would be tedious and yrksome to thee ( good reader : ) but the principal heads we wil truely relate , and that ●o briefly as in so large and confuse a subject we can . first , in the planting and constituting of their church ( at the beginning of queen elizabets reigne ) they receyved at once into the body of that church , as mēbers , the whole land , which generally then stood for the most part professed papists , who had revolted from the profession , which they made in the dayes of king edward of happy memory , and shed much blood of many christian martyrs in queen maryes dayes . this people yet standing in this fearful sinful state , in idolatry , blyndnes , superstition , and all manner wickednes , without any professed repentance , and without the meanes thereof , namely the preaching of the word going before , were by force & authority of law only compelled , and together received into the bosome and body of the church , their seed baptised , themselves receved and compelled to the lords supper , had this ministery and service ( which now they vse ) inioyned & set over thē , and ever synce they and their seed remayne in this estate , being all but one body commonly called the church of england . here are none exempted or excluded , be they never so prophane or wretched , no atheist , adulterer , thief , or murderer , no lyer , perjurer , witch or conjurer , &c ▪ al are one fellowship , one body , one church . now let the law of god be looked into , and there wil be found , that such persons ‡ are not fit stones for the lords spiritual howse , no meet members for christs glorious body . none of yeares * may be received into the church without fr●e professed fayth repentance and submission vnto the gospel of christ & his heavenly ordinances . neyther may | any contynew there longer then they bring forth the fruyts of fayth , walking as becommeth the gospell of christ. christ iesus † hath called & severed his servants out of and from the world . how then should this confused and mixed people be esteemed the orderly gathered true planted and right constituted church of god ? secondly , as they have reteyned the whole ●rout of the popish multitude without any distinctiō , for mēbers of their church ▪ so have they set over them ( as reason was ) the same popish clergie & prelacy , which they receved from the romish apostasie , and this day is to be found in the popish churches : to witt , archbs , primates , bbs. metropolitanes , suffraganes , archdeacōs , deanes , chauncellors , commissaries , and the rest of that rable , which rule and govern these assemblyes according to the popish canons , rites , and customes . these have the power and aucthoritie in their hands to set forth injunctions , to make and depose ministers , to excommunicate both priests and people , which they do very exquisitly , if they yeeld not vnto them their due homage and obedience . these have both ecclesiastical and civil aucthoritie , to reigne as princes in the church and live as lords in the common wealth , to punish , imprison , and persecute even to death al that dare but once mutter against their vnlawfull proceedings . of these prelates tyranny cruelty & vnlawful aucthoritie , the better sort both of preachers and people have cryed out , and long tyme sued vnto the prince and parlament to have them removed out of the church as bei●g the lymmes of antichrist . but not prevayling . they are now content ( fo● avoyding of the crosse of christ ) to submit themselves & their soules to this antichris●tian hierarchie , and beare the sinful yok● and burthen of their traditions , and to re●ceive and carry about the dreadful and d●●testable marke of the beast vpon them . thirdly , the inferiour ministery of tha● church , consisteth of priests , parsons , vi●cars , curats , hired preachers or lecturers , with clerks and other like officers , which have received their offices callings and aucthoritie from their forenamed lords the prelates to whom they sweare their canonical obedience , and promise to performe it with al● reverence and submission . their office i● to read over the service book & bbs decrees thereby to worship god , to marry , to bu●ry , to church women , to visit the sick , give him the sacrament , and forgive him al his sinnes : & if their livings or benefices ( as they are called ) amount to a certeine sūme of money in the princes booke , then must they preach , or get some other to preach for them fower sermons in a yeare in their parish . where also must be noted that the most part of these priests are vtterly vnlearned , and cannot preach at all : whereby it commeth to passe that most of the people are as blynd as they were in the dark dayes of popery . these ministers generally , aswel preachers as other , live in feare & servitude vnder their foresaid lords the bbs. for as without their licence written and sealed they cannot preach , so vpon their displeasure and for not obeying their injunctions , they are many tymes suspended , degraded , and if they will not be ruled , put in prison : so that sundry of thē have ben suspended and imprisoned for preaching against the prelats , not subscribing to their devised articles and booke of cōmon prayer , not wearing the sqare cap and surplice , not reading the service booke , & be tyed to the same , not coming to the bbs courts , visitations , inquisitions , &c. tyll now of late being wearyed with these troubles , they give place to their tyranny , and are content to conforme themselves , and yeeld their canonical obedience according to their oath , ●eeping now silence , yea going back , bearing & bolstering the things which heretofore by word and wryting they stood against , so long as there was any hope that the prince & counsel would have hea●kened vnto them , and put these adversary prelats out of the church . fourthly , for administratiō , which is by law imposed vpon all both clergie and laitie , ( for so they distinguish them ) they have gathered their service book verbatim out of the masse book , turning out of latine into english the suffrages , prayers , let any collects , &c. ( leaving out some of the gross pointes therin ) keping still the old fashio● of psalmes , chapters , pistles , gospell● versicles , respondes , also t● deum , bened●●tus , magnificat , nunc dimittis , our father lord have mercy vpon vs , the lord be wi● you , o lord open th●w my lyps , glory to god ● high , lyft vp your harts , o come let vs reioyc● glory be to the father , quicunque vult , & ● these doe they read dayly morninge an● evening all the yeare long in their priest● vestures , surplice , cope , &c. some the● saye , and some they sing , having in the cathedrall churches , the organs , quer●●ters , singing men and boyes , as in tymes pa● in pope●y . many popish errors yet remayn in that book , which their own preacher have noted , & found fault with . there a● they prescribed what prayers to read ov● the dead , over the co●n & grasse , some time in the yeare . by it are they injoyned ● keep their holy dayes to their lady ( ● they cal her ) to all saincts and angel● to all christs apostles , ( except paul a● barnabas ) whose eyes they are cōmande● to fast , as also their lent & ember day● besides frydayes and saturdayes throug● out the whole year . by this book are t●● ministers instructed how to marry , wi● the signe of the ring , &c. to baptise the hallowed font , with signe of 〈◊〉 crosse , with godfathers and godmothers , asking the child whether it wil forsake the devil and all his works , &c. to minister also their other sacrament or communion to the people kneling , as when in popery they received their maker , the words of christs institution altered , and others in stead of them taken out of the popes portuis , with innumerable such like enormities and fopperies wherewith it swarmeth . and this is all the worship and service which many parishes have vsually , except peradventure some written homilies which the vnlearned priests read vnto them . this service must first be read , and hath the preeminence , even on the lords dayes , before any preaching , yea before the bible it self . he that can read this book● distinctly , is fit ynough with them to be a preist , yea many that have ben artificers , as shoemakers , taylers , weavers , porters , &c , and without any giftes or knowledg at all , save only to read english , have ben and are admitted , & to this day maynteyned by the prelats in the ministerie . to these churches ministers & service must all the people there come every daye , yea though they hav in the next parish a preacher , and in their own a dumb vnlearned priest , yet are they all tyed to their owne church and minister , and must at the least twise a yeare , receve the sacramēt at his hāds . if they refuse this , or do not ordinarily come to their parish church , thē are they sūmoned , excōmunicated , & imprisoned tyl they become obedient ▪ in this bōdage are our countrymen there held vnder their priests and prelats : and such as by the word of god witnes against and condemne these abhominations , they hate , punish , put to death , and persecute out of the land. who now in whom any spark of true light is . cannot playnly perceive this their ministery worship and church to be false & adulterate ? doth christs eternall testament ordeyn and approve of such popish lordes and prelats to reigne over his church ? are these , those christian bishops that is * pastors , teachers , and elders , which he hath set in his church and over his owne people vnto the ende of the world ? or can those preachers which are thus created and deposed by , thus sworne and obedient vnto their spirituall lordes , be deemed true teachers of the gospell of christ lawfully called and ordeyned to that ministerye ? is that their english masse the ‡ trew & spirituall worship of god according to his owne wil ? we are taught in the scriptures † that there can be no agrement made betwixt christ and antichrist , betwixt the lawes of god and mens traditions ; that the servants of iesus may not submitt vnto or receive the marke of that beast , neyther drinke of the cup of the whore of babylons fornications , or buy any of her wares ; but must | contend for the mayntenance of that saith which was once gyven vnto the saincts , keeping their souls and bodyes pure frō antichristiā pollutions , touching ‡ no vnclean thing , nor having any fellowship with the vnfruteful works of darknes , least * by partaking with their synnes they receve also of their plagues , & drynck of the wyne of the wrath of god , & be tormented in fyre and brimstone , before the holy angels and before the lamb for evermore . if christ be god , let vs follow him : but if the pope be god , what shall we say ? why have we left him , his church and ministery , his worship & jurisdiction , or what halting and mocking with the lord is this , to put away the popes person , and reteyne his prelacy and ministery , his lawes , traditions and canons , his worship & service : or at the least to frame vnto our selves a worship ministery and church after the patterne and mould of the apostasy of rome ? which what other thing is it , then to make an image of that wild beast , and force men to worship it ? thus seest thow briefely ( good christian reader ) the thinges which we mislike in the church of england , and for which we have separated our selves as god commaundeth . to all these , if we were amongst them , should we be forced to submitt our bodyes & soules , or els suffer violence at the handes of the prelats , & end our lives by violent death or most miserable imprisonment , as many of our brethren before vs have done . for so great is the malice and power of those romysh priests , that they persecute vnto death such as speak against them : and such poor christians as they cast into their noysome prysons , can seldome or never get out ( except with shipwrack of conscience ) vntil they be caryed forth vpon the bere . neyther is there any care taken for their relief in this case : but being cast into pryson , there they are deteyned without any alloweance of meat or money for their mayntenance , be their want and poverty never so great . if they have any thing of their own , there they are driven to spend it vp : if they have nothing , there they are left by the prelates to feed on the ayre . and that they may more readily be sterved , or weakened in the truth , they are cōmonly shut vp in close pryson , their frends & acquayntance being not suffred to come at them : nay even their wives & children being kept and debarred from them by the tyranny of these bloody prelats and their instruments : whose hard harts and vnnaturall cruelty , if thou diddest vnderstand ( gentle reader ) as many of vs haue felt and to this day yet feel , it would make thy hart to bleed , considering their vnmercyfull and barbarous dealing . and how many soules haue perished in their prisons through miserable vsage , how many have ben put to death , and how many banished , though we could to their eternall infamy relate to all the world , yet wil we not blaze abroad their acts ( for we take no delight in laying opē their shame ) but mourne for them in secret , cōmitting our cause to god that judgeth justly , knowing that he that maketh inquisition for blood remembreth it , and will not forget the complaint of the poore . and thou ( christian reader ) vouch safe to remember vnto god in thy prayers such as yet remayne in bandes and pryson amongest them for the testimony of iesus , enduring a hard sight of afflictions , and having the sentence of death in them selves , are like ( if the lord send not vnexspected deliverance ) there to end their dayes . concerning our selves , who through the mercy of god have found a place of rest in this land , for which benefyt we are alwayes and every where humbly thankfull : we desyre ( christian reader ) thy charitable and christian opinion of and holy prayers vnto god for vs , whose kingdome we seek , whose ordinances we desire to establish and obey : protesting with good consciences , that it is the truth of his gospel only for which we strive against those cursed reliques of antichristian apostasie : vnto which we dare in no wise submit our selves , no not for a moment . for if it be not lawfull for christians at this day to reteyn the ceremonyes of moses law together with the gospel , as the passeover , circumcision , the priesthood , sacrifices , &c. which yet were once cōmanded by god himself : how can we think it tollerable to observe the odious ceremonies of antichrist , or submit our selves to his lawes , priesthood , hierarchie , & traditions , which the lord never allowed , & which never entred into his heart : yea which he hath so severely forbidden , with fearfull judgments threatned vnto all that shal so do . but because we have ben very grievously slaundred in our owne nation , and the bruit thereoff hath followed vs vnto this land , whereby we have ben hardly deemed of by many without cause , we have ben forced at length to publysh this brief but true confession of our fayth , for the clearing of our selves from sclaunder , and satisfying of many who desired to knowe the thinges we hold . wherein if in any thing we erre ( as who is so perfit that he erreth not ) we crave ( good reader ) thy christian brotherly censure and information , promising alwayes ( through the grace of god ) to yeild vnto the truth when it shall be further shewed vs , and leave our errors when by the light of his word they shal be reproved . in lyke manner it shall be thy par● and duty to acknowledge and submytt vnto the truth , by whomsoever it is professed , looking alwayes rather to the preciousnes of the treasure it self then to the basenes of the vessels which conteyne it , or the infirmities of those that witnes the same : in whose mortall bodyes thow shalt see nothing but the markes and dying of our lord iesus christ. but hold not thy fayth in respect of mens persons , neyther be thow moved at the evyl reports which have ben raised of vs. here hast thow the trew summe of our christian saith : try al thinges by the true light of gods word : and if thou shalt reap any profit by these our labours , give god the glory , and remember vs vnto him in thy prayers . farewell in christ iesus . 1596. the confession of fayth of certaine english people , living in the low countreyes , exiled . vve beleeve with the heart & confesse with the mouth . i. that there is but † one god , one christ , one spirit , one church , on● truth , one faith , one true religion , | on● rule of godlines & obedience for al chri●●tians , in all places , at all tymes , to be observed . ii. god is a * spirit , whose ‡ being is 〈◊〉 himself , and giveth beeing , moving , & preservation to al other things , being himself † eternal , most holy , every way infinite , in greatnes , wisdome , power , goodnes , justice , truth , &c. in this godhead there be | three distinct persons , coeternal , coequal , and coessential , being every one of them one and the same god , & therfore not divided but distinguished one from another by their several and peculiar propertie : the father , of whom are the other persons , but he of none ; the sonne , begotten of the father from everlasting ; the holy ghost , proceeding from the father and the sonne before all beginnings . iii. god hath * decreed in himself from everlasting touching al things , and the very least circumstances of every thing , effectually to work and dispose them according to the counsel of his own will , to the glory of his name . and touching his chiefest creatures , god hath in christ ‡ before the foundation of the world , according to the good pleasure of his will , foreordeyned some men and angels , to eternall lyfe , to be accomplished through iesus christ , to the prayse of the glorie of his grace . and hath also † of old according to his just purpose foreappointed other both angels and men , to eternall condēnation , to be accōplished through their own corruption and desert , to the prayse of his justice . iiii. in the | beginning , god made al things of nothing very good : and created man * after his own image and likenes in righteousnes and holynes of truth . but ‡ streightwayes after , by the subtilty of the serpent which satan vsed as his instrument ( † himself with his angels having sinned before , & not kept their first estate , but left their owne habitation : ) first | eva , then adam being seduced , did wittingly and willingly fall into disobedience and transgression of the cōmaundement of god. for the which , * death came vpon all , and reigneth over al : yea even ‡ over infants also , which have not synned after the like manner of the transgression of adam , that is , actually : hence also it is , that all since the fall of adam , are begotten † in his own likenes after his image , being conceived and formed in iniquity , and so by nature children of wrath and servants of sinne , and subject to death , and all other calamities due vnto sinne , in this world and for ever . v. al mankind being thus fallen and become altogether dead in sinne , & subject to the eternall wrath of god , both by original and actuall corruption : yet * the elect , al and onely , are redeemed , quickned , raysed vp and saved again , not of themselves , neyther by works ( least any man should boast himself ) but wholly and only by god , of his free grace and mercy ; through faith in christ iesus , † who of god is made vnto vs wisdome , and righteousnes , and sanctification , and redemption , that according as it is written , he that reioyceth should reioyce in the lord. vi. this therefore is * lyfe eternal , to know the only true god , and whom he hath sent into the world iesus christ. and on the contrary , the ‡ lord will render vengeance in flaming fire vnto them that know not god , and which obey not the gospel of our lord iesus christ. vii . now the rule of this knowledg faith and obedience , concerning the worship and service of god and all other christian dutyes , is not mens opinions , devises , lawes , constitutions , or traditions vnwritten whatsoever , but only the written word of god , conteined in the canonicall books of the old and new testament . viii . in this written word , god hath plainely reveled whatsoever he thought needfull for vs to know beleev and acknowledge , touching the persō & office of iesus christ ; in whō all the promises of god are yea , and in whom they are amen , to the prayse of god through vs. ix . touching his person , the lord iesus , of whom ‡ moses & the prophets wrote , and whom the apostles preached , is the ‡ everlasting sonne of god the father by eternal generation , the brightnes of his glorie , & the engraven forme of his person , coessential coequal & coeternal god with him and with the holy ghost : by whom he made the worlds , by whom he vpholdeth and governeth all the works he hath made : who also , † when the fulnes of tyme was come , was made man of a woman , of the | tribe of iudah , of * the seed of david and abraham , to wyt , of mary that blessed virgin , by the holy ghost comming vpon her , & the power of the most high overshadowing her : and was also † in all things like vnto vs , sinne only excepted . x touching his office , iesus christ * only is made the mediator of the new testamēt , even of the everlasting covenant of grace between god & man , to be ‡ perfectly and fully the prophet , priest , and king of the church of god for evermore . xi . vnto this office , he was from everlasting * by the iust and sufficiēt authority of the father , & in respect of his manhood , from the wōb , called & separated ‡ & anoynted also most fully & abundantly with all ne●cessary gifts , as it is writtē , god hath not measured out the spirit vnto him . xii , this office to be mediator , that is , prophet , priest , and king of the church of god , is so proper to christ , as neyther in the whole , not in any part thereof , it can be transferred from him to any other . xiii . touching his prophecie , christ * hath perfectly revealed out of the bosome of his father , the whole word and will of god , that is needfull for his servants , eyther joyntly or severally to know beleev or obey : he also † hath spoken and doth speak to his church in his own ordinance , by his own ministers and instruments onely , and not by | any false ministerie at any tyme. xiiii . touching his priesthood , christ * being consecrated , hath appeared once to put away sinne , by the offring and sacrificing of himself : and to this end hath fully performed & suffred all those things by which god through the blood of that his crosse , in an acceptable sacrifice , might be reconciled to his elect , and the blessing of abraham come vpon vs to eternal life wherefore also having † broken down th● partition wal , and therewith finished and removed all those rites , shadowes , and ceremonies , he is now entred within the vayle into the holy of holies , that is t● the very heaven , and presence of god where hee for ever liveth and sitteth a● the right hand of majestie appearing before the face of his father , to make intercession for such as come vnto the throne of grace by that new and living way : and not that onely , but maketh | his people aspiritual howse , an holy priesthood , to offer vp spiritual sacrifices , acceptable to god through him . neyther doth the father accept or christ offer vnto the father any other worship , or worshippers . xv. towching his kingdome , christ * being ●isen from the dead , ascended into heaven , set at the right hand of god the father , having al power in heaven and earth given vnto him , he doth spiritually govern his church : exercising his power ‡ over all angels and men , good and bad , t● the preservation and salvation of the elect to the overruling and destruction of th● reprobate : | communicating & applying the benefits , vertue , & frute of his prophecy and priesthood vnto his elect , namely to th● remissiō , subduing , & taking away of thei● syns , to their iustificatiō , adoptiō of sōnes regeneration , sanctificatiō , preservation & strengthning in all their conflicts against sathan , the world , the flesh , & the temptations of them : continually dwelling in governing , and keeping their harts in h●● true faith & fear by his holy spirit : which having ‡ once given it , hee never take● away from them , but by it still begette● and norisheth in them repentance , faith love , obedience , comfort , peace , ioy hope , and all christian vertues , vnto im●mortalitie ; notwithstanding that it b● somtymes through sinne and tentatio● interrupted , smothered , and as it were o●erwhelmed for the tyme. and on th● contrary , † ruling in the world over 〈◊〉 enemies , sathan , and all the vessels of wrath , limiting , vsing , restreyning them ●y his mighty power , as seemeth good ●n his divine wisdome and justice , to the execution of his determinate counsell , ●o wit , to their seduction , hardning , and condemnation , delivering them vp to a reprobate mynd , to be kept through their ●wn desert in darcknes , sinne , and sensualitie , vnto judgment . xvi the kingdome shal be then fully perfected , when he shal the second tyme come in glorie with his mightie angels , to judg both quick and dead , to abolish a rule authoritie and power , to put all his enemies vnder his feet , to separate and free all his chosen from them for ever● to punish the wicked with everlasting perdition from his presence , to gather ioyne , and carry the godly with himsel● into endles glory , and then to delive● vp the kingdome to god , even the fa●ther , that so the glorie of the father ma● be full and perfect in the sonne , the glo●rie of the sonne in all his members , & god be all in all . xvii . in the meane tyme , besides his absolute rule in the world , christ hath her● in earth * a spirituall kingdome & oeco●nomical regiment in his church , which he hath purchased and redemed to him●elf , as a peculiar inheritance . and albeit that many hypocrites do for the time ●urke amongst them ‡ whiles the church 〈◊〉 militant here on earth , yet christ notwithstanding | by the power of his word gathereth them which be his into the body of his church , calleth them from out of the world , bringeth them to his ●●ue faith , separating them * frō amongst ●nbeleevers , frō idolatrie , false worship . ●uperstition , vanitie , dissolute life , and 〈◊〉 works of darknes , &c. making them ● royal priesthood , an holy nation , a peo●le set at libertie , to shew foorth the vir●es of him that hath called them out of ●arknes into his marvelous light ; gathe●ing and vniting them together , as † mem●ers of one body , in his faith , love , and ●oly order , vnto all generall and mutu●l dutyes , through his spirit instructing and governing them by such officers & ●awes as he hath prescribed in his word , ●y which officers and lawes he gover●eth his church , and by ‡ none other . xviii . to this church hee hath made the * pr●●mises , and given the seales of his cov●nant , presence , love , blessing & protecti● here are the ‡ holy oracles , as in t● arke , surely kept and puerly taught . h● are all the † fountaynes and springs of ● grace continually replenished & flowi● forth . heer is christ | lifted vp to all n●●tions , hither * hee inviteth all men to ● supper , his mariage feast : hither ou●● ‡ all men of al estates and degrees , that ● knowledge him their prophet , priest a● king to repayre , to be enrolled amongst his houshold servants , to be vnder his heavenly conduct and government , to lead their lives in his walled sheepfold and watered orchard , to have communion heer with the saincts , that they may be made meet to be partakers of theyr inheritance in the kingdome of god. xix . and as * all his servants and subjects are called hither , to present their bodies and soules , and to bring the gyfts god hath given them , so being come , they are heer by himself bestowed in their severall order , peculiar place , due vse , being fitly compact and knit together by every joynt of help , according to th● effectuall work in the measure of ever● part , vnto the edification of it self in lov● wherevnto when he † ascended vp o● high he gave gifts vnto men , and distributed them vnto several publik function in his church , having instituted and ra●tified to continue vnto the worlds end only this publick ordinarie ministery o● pastors , teachers , elders , deacons , helpers , 〈◊〉 the instruction , government , and service of his church . xx , this ministerie is exactly * descrbed distinguished , limited concerning their office , their calling to their office their administration of their office , and their maintenance in in their office , by most perfect and plaine lawes in gods word : which ‡ lawes it is not lawfull for these ministers , or for the whole church wittingly to neglect , transgresse , or violate in any part , nor yet to receive any other lawes brought into the church by any person whatsoever . xxi . none * may vsurp or execute a ministerie , but such as are rightly called by the church wherof they stand ministers , vnto such offices , and in such maner , as god hath prescribed in his word . and being so called , they ought to giue all diligence to fulfil their ministery to be foūd faithfull and vnblameable in all things . † xxii . this ministerie is alike given to every christian congregation , with like and equal power and commission to have & enjoy the same , as god offereth fit men and meanes , the same rules given to all for the election and execution thereof in all places . xxiii , as every christian congregation * hath power and commandement to elect and ordeine their owne ministerie according to the rules in gods word prescribed , & whilest they shall faithfully execute their office , to have them † in superabundant love for their worke sake , to provide for them , to honour them & reverence them , according to the dignitie of the office they execute : so have they also | power and commandement , when anie such default , eyther in their life , doctrine , or administration breaketh out , as by the rule of the word debarreth them from , or depriveth them of their ministerie , by due order to depose them from the ministerie they exercised : yea if the case so require , and they remain obstinate & impenitent , orderly to cut them off by excommunication . xxiiii . christ * hath given this power to receive in or to cut of any member , to the whole body together of every christian congregation , and not to any one member apart , or to more members sequestred from the whole , or to any other congregation to do it for them : yet so , as ech congregation ought to vse the ‡ best help they can heervnto , and the most meet member they have to pronounce the same in their publick assembly . xxv , every member● of each christian congregation , how excellent , great , or learned soever , ought to be subiect to this censure & judgment of christ : yet ought not the church without great care and due advise to proced against such publick persons . xxvi , as christ hath * for the keeping of this church in holy and orderly communion , placed some speciall men over the church , who by their office are to governe , oversee , visite , watch &c. so ‡ lykewise for the better keeping thereof in all places , by all the members , hee hath given authority and layd duty vpon them all to watch one over another . xxvii . finally , whilest the ministers & people thus remayne together in this holy order & christian communion , ech one endevoring to do the wil of god in their calling , and thus to walke to the glory of god , in the obedience of faith : christ hath promised to be present with them , to blesse & defend them against all fraud and force of theyr enemyes , so as the gates of hell shall not prevaile against thē . xxviii . but when and where this holy order and diligent watch was intermitted , neglected , violated : antichrist that man of sinne , did together with other points of christian faith corrupt also and alter the holy ordinances , offices , and administrations of the church : and in stead thereof brought in , and erected a strange new forged ministerie , leitourgie , and government . yea and the nations kingdoms and inhabitants of the earth were made druncken with this cup of fornications and abominations , and al people enforced to receive the beasts mark and worship his image , and so brought into confusion and babylonish bondage . xxix . the present hierarchie reteyned and vsed in england of archbs , primates , lordbps , metropolitanes , suffraganes , deanes , prebendaries , canons , peticanons , archdeacōs , chancellors , commissaries , priests , deacons or halfpriests , parsons , vicars , curats , hierling roving preachers , church-wardēs , parish-clerks : also their doctors , proctors , and other officers of their spiritual courts ( as they call them ) together with the whole rable of the prelats , and their servitours from and vnder them set over these cathedrall and parishionall assemblies in this confusion , are a strange & antichristian ministerie and offices : and are not that ministerie above named , instituted in christs testament , nor placed in or over his church . xxx , these their popish offices , entrance , administration , and maintenance , with their names , titles , privileges , & prerogatives : also the power and rule they vsurp over and in these ecclesiasticall assemblies , over the whole ministration and affaires therof , yea one over another , creating priests , citing , suspēding , silencing , deposing , absolving , excommunicating , &c , their confounding of ecclesiasticall & civill jurisdiction , causes , and procedings in their persons , courts , cōmissions , visitations , the priests of lesse rule taking their ministery from & exercising it vnder them by their prescription & limitation , swearing canonical obedience vnto thē , administring by their devised imposed stinted popish leitourgie , &c. finally the dispensations which they vse for plurality of benefices , licences of non residency , licences to mary and eat flesh ( both which with them are on certain dayes & tymes forbidden , &c , ) these , we say , are sufficient proofes of the former assertion , the particulars therin being duly examined by & compared to the rules of christs testament . not to speak here , of their private baptisme , of the signe of the crosse vsed in baptisme , of questions propounded to the infants , of the priests surplice , prayer over the dead at buriall , kneeling at the lords supper , and other the like popish corruptions , almost infinite , reteyned and allowed among them . xxxi . these ecclesiastical assemblies , remayning thus in confusion & bondage vnder this antichristian ministerie , courts , canons , worship , ordinances &c. without freedom and power to redresse any enormitie among them , cannot be said in this confusion and subiection , truly to have christ their prophet priest and king , neither can be in this estate ( whilest we judg them by the rules of gods word ) estemed the true , visible , orderly gathered or cōstituted churches of christ , whereof the faithful may become or stād members , or have anie spirituall communion with them in their publick worship and administration . xxxii . therfore are * al that will be saved , bound by gods commandement , with speed to come forth of this antichristian estate , leaving the suppression of it ‡ vnto the magistrate to whom it belongeth . and all such also as have | received or exercised any of these false offices or any pretended function or ministerie in or to this false and antichristian constitution , are willingly in gods feare to give over aud leave those vnlawfull offices , and no longer to minister in this maner to these assemblies in this estate . neyther may * any of what sort or conditiō soever , give any part of their goods , lands , money , or money worth to the maintenance of this false ministerie and worship , vpon any cōmandement or vnder any colour whatsoever . xxxiii . and being come forth of this antichristiā-estate vnto the freedom & true profession of christ , besides the * instructing and well guyding of their owne families , they are willingly to ‡ ioyne together in christian communion and orderly covenant , and by free confession of the faith & obedience of christ to vnite themselves into | peculiar & visible congregations : wherin , as mēbers of one body wherof christ is the only head , they are to worship and serve god according to his word , remēbring to ‡ keep holy the lords day . xxxiiii . then also * such to whom god hath given gifts to interpret the scriptures , tryed in the exercise of prophecy , attending to studie and learning may and ought ( by the appointment of the congregation ) to prophesie , according to the proportion of faith , and so to teach publickly the word of god , for the edification , exhortation and comfort of the church : vntill such tyme as the people be meet for and god manifest men with able gifts and fitnes to such office or offices as christ hath appointed to the publick ministerie of his church : but ‡ no sacraments to be administred vntil the pastors or teachers be chosen and ordeined into their office. xxxv . and then wheresoever there shall be a people fit , and men furnished with meet and necessary gifts , they are not onely still to continue the exercise of prophesy aforesayd , but also ‡ vpon due tryal to proceed vnto choyce and ordination of officers for the ministery and service of the church , according to the rule of gods word : & so hold on * stil to walk forward in the wayes of christ for their mutuall edification and comfort , as it shall please god to give knowledg and grace therevnto . and particularly , that such as be † of the seed , or vnder the government of any of the church , be even in their infancie received to baptisme and made partakers of the signe of gods covenant made with the faithful & their seed throughout all generations . and that al | of the church that are of yeares , and able to examine themselves , d● communicate also in the lords supper , both men and women , and in ‡ both kinde● bread and wine . in which * clements as also in the water of baptisme , even after they are consecrate , there is neyther transubstantiation into , nor consubstantiation with the body and blood of iesus christ : whom the heavens must conteyn , vntil the time that all things be restored : but they are † in the ordinance of god signes and seales of gods everlasting covenant with vs , representing & offring | to all the receivers , but exhibiting only to the true beleevers the lord iesus christ & al his benefits vnto righteousnes , sanctification , and eternal lyfe , through faith in his name , to the glorie and prayse of god. xxxvi . thus being rightly gathered , established , & stil proceeding in christian cōmunion and obedience of the gospell of christ , none is to separate for faults and corruptiōs , which may & so long as the church consisteth of mortall men will fall out & arise among them , even in true constituted churches , but by due order to seeke redres●e thereof . xxxvii . such as yet see not the truth , may not withstanding * heare the publik doctrine and prayers of the church , and with a meeknes are to bee sought by al meanes yet none who are growen in yeares may be received into their cōmunion as members , ‡ but such as do make confession of their faith , publickly desiring to be received as members , and promising to walk in the obedience of christ. neyther any infants , † but such as are the seed of the faithfull by one of the parents , or vnder their education and government . and further | not any from one congregation to be received members in another , without bringing certificate of their former estate & present purpose . xxxviii . and although the particular congregations be thus distinct and severall bodies , every one as a compact and knit citie in it self , yet are they al to walke by one and the same rule , and by all meanes convenient to have the counsel and help one of another in all needfull affaires of the church , as members of one body in the common faith , vnder christ their onely head . xxxix . it is the office and duty of princes & magistrates ( who by the ordinance of god are * supreme governours vnder him over all persons and causes within their realmes and dominions ) to † suppresse and root out by their authoritie al false ministeries , voluntarie religions , & counterfeit worship of god ; to abolish and destroy the idol temples , images , altars , vestments , & all other monuments of idolatry and superstition ; and to take and convert to their own civill vses not only the benefit of all such idolatrous buildings and monuments , but also the revenues , demeanes , lordships , possessions , gleabes , and maintenance of any false ministeries , and vnlawfull ecclesiasticall functions whatsoever within their dominions . and on the other hand , ‡ to stablish and mainteyn by their lawes every part of gods word , his christian religion , pure worship , and true ministery described in his word ; to cherish and protect all such as are careful to worship god according to his word , and to lead a godly lyfe in al peace and loyalty ; yea to enforce al their subjects whether ecclesiasticall or civil , to do their dutyes to god and men , protecting & mainteining the good , punishing and restreyning the evil , according as god hath commaunded , whose lieutenants they are here on earth . xl. and thus the protectiō & cōmandement of the princes and magistrates maketh it much more * peaceable , though no whit at all ‡ more lawfull , to walke in the wayes and ordinances of iesus christ : which he hath commanded his church to keep without spot and vurebukeable vntill his appearing in the end of the world , and in this behalf , therefore , the brethren thus mynded and proceding as is before said , are both cōtinually to † supplicate to god and as they may , to their princes & governors , that thus & vnder thē they may lead a quiet and peaceable lyfe in al godlines and honestie . xli . and if god encline the magigstrates hearts to the allowance and protection of the church therein , it ought to be accoūted a singular & happy blessing of god who grāteth such noursing fathers & mothers to his church . and it behoveth al to be careful to walk worthie so great a mercy of god , in all thankfulnes and obedience . xlii , but if god withold the magistrates allowance & furtherance herein , yet * must wee notwithstanding proceed together in christian covenant & cōmunion thus to walke in the obedience of christ and confession of his faith and gospel , even through the middest of all tryalls & afflictiōs , not accounting our goods , lands , wives , children , fathers , mothers , brethren , sisters , no nor our lives , dear vnto vs , so as wee may finish our course with joy , remembring alwayes that we ought to obey god rather then man : & grounding vpon the ‡ commandement , commission , & promise of our saviour christ , who as he hath all power in heaven and in earth , so hath also promised ( if we keep his commandements , which hee hath given without limitation of tyme , place , magistrates allowance or disallowance ) to be with vs vnto the end of the world : and when we have finished our course and kept the faith , to give vs the crown of righteousnes which is layd vp for all that love his appearing . xliii . vnto al men is to be given whatsoever is due vnto them . tributes , customes , and all other such lawfull & accustomed dutyes , ought willingly and orderly to be payed and performed : our lands , goods , and bodyes , to be submitted in the lord to the magistrates pleasure . and the magistrates themselves every way to be acknowledged , reverenced , and obeyed according to godlines , not because of wrath onely but also for conscience sake : and finally , all men so to be estemed and regarded , as is due and meet for their place , age , estate and condition . xliiii . and thus , we labour to giue vnto god y t which is gods & vnto cesar that which is cesars , and vnto all men , that which belongeth vnto them : endevoring our selves to have alwayes a cleare conscience towards god and towards men : and having hope in god that the resurrection of the dead shal be of the just vnto life , & of the vnjust vnto condemnation , everlasting . now if any take this to be heresie , then do we with the apostle freely confesse that after the way which they call heresie , we worship god the father of our lord iesus christ , beleeving all things that are written in the law and in the prophets and apostles : and whatsoever is according to this rule of truth published in our owne countrey or holden by any reformed churches in their confessions abroad in the world . we do also reiect and detest all straunge and heretical opinions & doctrines of all hereticks both old and new whatsoever . xlv . finally , whereas we are much slaundered and traduced as if we denyed or misliked that forme of prayer commonly called the lords prayer : we thought it needful here also cōcerning it to make known , that we beleev and acknowledg it to be a most absolute and most excellent forme of prayer , such as no men nor angels can set downe the like . and that it was taught and appointed by our lord iesus christ , not that we should be tyed to the vse of those very words , but that we should according to that rule make all our requests and thankesgiving vnto god , forasmuch as it is a perfect forme & patterne , conteining in it plaine & sufficient directions of prayer , for all occasions & necessities , that have ben , are , or shal be , to the church of god , or any member therof , to the end of the world . now vnto him that is able to keep vs that woe fal 〈◊〉 and to present vs faultlesse before the presence of his glory with ioy , that is , to god only wise , our saviour , be glory and maiestie , and dominion , & power , both now 〈◊〉 for ever , amen . ¶ the heads of the differences between vs and the church of england as it standeth at this day , concerning divers corruptions of antichrist yet remayning among them . i. that christ the lord hath by his last testament given to his church , and set therein , sufficient ordinary offices , with the maner of calling or entrance , works , and maintenance , for the administration of his holy things , and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guydance & service of his church , to the end of the world . 2. that every particular church hath like & full interest & power to enioy and practise all the ordinances of christ given by him to his church to be observed therein perpetually . 3. that a true visible church , is a company of people called and separated from the world by the word of god , and ioyned together by voluntarie profession of the faith of christ , in the fellowship of the gospell . and that therefore no prophane persons , vnbeleevers or wicked livers , may be received reteyned or c●̄pelled to be members in the church of christ , which is his body ; god having in all ages appointed & made a separation of his people from the world , before the law , vnder the law , & now in the tyme of the gospel . 4. that discreet , faithfull , & able men ( though not yet in office of ministerie ) may preach the gospell and whole truth of god , that men being first brought to knowledg , & converted to the lord , may then be ioyned together in holy comunion with christ our head and one with another . 5. that being thus ioyned , every church hath power in christ to chuse and take vnto themselves meet and sufficient persons , into the offices and functions of pastors , teachers , elders , deacons and helpers , as those which christ hath appointed in his testament , for the feeding , governing , serving , & building vp of his church . and that no antichristian hierarchie or ministerie , of popes . arch-bishops , lord bishops , suffraganes , deanes , arch-deacons , chauncellors , parsons , vicars , priests , dumb-ministers , or any such like , may be set over the spouse & church of christ , nor reteined therein . 6. that the ministers aforesaid being lawfully called by the church where they are to administer , ought to continew in their functions according to gods ordinance , and carefully to f●ed the flock of christ cōmitted vnto them , being not inioyned or suffred to beare civil offices withall , neither burthened with the execution of civil affaires , as the celebration of mariage , bu●ying the dead &c. which things belong aswel to those without as within the church . 7. that the due maintenance of the officers aforesayd , should be of the free and voluntarie contribution of the church , that according to christs ordinance , they which preach the gospel may live of the gospel : and not by popish lordships and livings , or iewish tithes & offerings . and that therefore the lands & other like revenewes of the prelats & clergie yet remayning ( being still also baits to allure the iesuites & seminaries into the land , & incitements vnto them to plot & prosecute their woonted evil courses , in hope to enioy them in tyme to come ) may and ought to be taken away , & converted to better vse , as those of the abbeyes & nunneries have been heretofore by the princes power and authority , to the honor of god & great good of the reālme . 8. that al particular churches ought to be so constituted , as having their own peculiar officers , the whole body of every church may meet together in one place , & ioyntly perform their duties to god & one towards another . and that the censures of admonition and excommunicatiō should in due maner be executed , for sinne , convicted , & obstinatly stood in . this power also to be in the body of the church whereof the parties so offending & persisting are members . 9. that the church is not to be governed by popish canons , courts , classes , customes , or any humane inventions , but by the lawes & rules which christ hath appointed in his testament . that no apocrypha writings , but only the ca●nical scriptures are to be vsed in the church . and that the lord is to be worshipped and called vpon in spirit & truth , according to that forme of praier given by the lord iesus , mat. 6. & after the leitourgie of his own testament , not by any other framed or imposed by men , much lesse by one translated from the popish 〈◊〉 , as the book of common praier &c. 10. that the sacraments , being seales of gods covenant , ought to be administred onely to the faithful , & baptisme to their seed or those vnder their government . and that according to the simplicitie of the gospel , without any popish or other abuses , in either sacrament . 11. that the church is not to be vrged to the observation of dayes & tymes , iewish or popish , save only to sanctify the lords day : neyther to be laden in thinges indifferent , with rites & ceremonies , whatsoever invented by men ; but that christian libertie may be rete●ned : and what god hath left f●ee , none to make bound . 12. that al monuments of idolatry in garments or any other things , al temples , altars , chappels , & other places dedicated heertofore by the heathèns or antichristians to their fa 〈…〉 worship , ought by aucthoritie to be rased & bolished , not suffered to remayne , for nourishing superstition , much lesse imploied to the tr 〈…〉 worship of god. 13. that popish degrees in theologie , i 〈…〉 forcement to single life in colledges , abuse the study of prophane heathen writers , w 〈…〉 other like corruptions in schooles & academi 〈…〉 should be removed & redressed , that so th 〈…〉 may be the welsprings & 〈◊〉 series of true lea●ning & godlines . 14. finally that all churches & peop●● ( without exception ) are bound in religion on 〈…〉 ly to receive & submit vnto that constitution ministerie , worship , & order , which christ lord & king hath appovnted vnto his churc● & not to any other devised by man whatsoeve●● let him that readeth , consider . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a08068-e260 act. 28 2 rev , 〈…〉 ●al . 105. ● , 14. pet. 2 , 9. psal. 46 , 1 rev. 2. 5. * 2 cor. 6. 1. ● ▪ 15. &c psa. 94. 20. 2 thes. 2. 3. | ps. 37. 2● ▪ ier. 51. 6. rev. 18. 4. & 14. 1. neh. 6. 6. 7. ● . harmon . of confes. ‡ 1 pet. 2. 5. ier. 51. 26. * act. 2. 38. 40. 41. and 8. 36. 37. & 15 9. ioh 10. 3. 4 5. esa. 35. 8. 9. | ioh. 15. 2. 5. mat. 18. 15. 17 lev. 13. 46. num. 4. 13. † iohn . 15. 19. & 17. 14. 16 mat. 3. 12. lev. 20. 24. ●6 . 1 iohn . 4. 5. 6. about forty ecclesiasticall popish offices are at this day in the church of england , never a one appointed by christ in his testament . with what words and rites , in what habit and gesture , these things are to be done , they are taught in their rubrik . some of them in certaine english books set forth , have reckned above 100. popish corruptiōs yet reteyned in this church . * rom. 12. 1. cor. 12. eph. 4. 11. 12 13. ‡ ioh. 4. 24. mat. 15. 9. † deut. 6. 4. 5 mat. 16. 6. ● cor. 6. 14. 15. psal. 106. 34. 35. 36. | iudo . vers . 3. ‡ 2 cor. 6. 17. eph. 5. 11. * rev. 18. 4. & 14. 10 , 11. mat. 6. 24. 2 kin. 16. 10 , 11 , 12. rev●l . 13. 12. 14. 15. 〈◊〉 . 51. 6. mi● 2. 10. rev. 18. 4. 2 cor. 6. 17. 〈…〉 . 40. psal. 9. 12. heb. 13. 3. gal. 4. 4. 5. 6. & . 5. 1. 2. heb. 8. & 9. & 10. chap. 2. cor. 4. ● iam. 2. ● . notes for div a08068-e1480 † deut 6. 4. 1 tim. 2. 5. eph. 4. 4. 5. 6. 1 cor. ● . 6. & 12. 4. 5. 6. 13. ier. 6. 16. ioh. 14. 6. | 1 tim. 6. 3. 13. 14. mat. 15. 9. & 28. 20. deut. 4. 2. 6. & 12. 32 1 cor 4. 17. & 14. 33. 2 tim. ● 15. 16. 17. gal ▪ 8. 9. revel . 2● 18 , 19. * ioh. 4. 24. ‡ exod. 3. 14. rom. 11. 36. act 17. 28. † 1 tim. 1. 17. esa. 6. 3. & 66 1. 2. | 1 iohn . 5 , 7. mat. 28. 19. pro. 8. 22. heb. 1. 3. & 9. 14. phil. 2. 6. 1 cor. 8. 6. micah . 5. 2 psal. 2. 7. gal. 4. 6. iohn . 1. 1. 2. 18. & 10. 30. 38. & 15. 26. * esa. 46. 10. rom. 11. 34. 35. 36. gen , 45. 5. 6. 7. 8. mat. 10. 29 30. eph. 1. 11 ‡ eph. 1. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 10. 11. mat. 25. 34. 2 tim. 1. 9. act. 13. 48 1 tim. 5. 21. col 1 , 14 17 18. 19. 20 & 2. 10. iob 1. 6. rev. 19. 10 1 thes. 5. 9. rom 8. 29. 30. & 9. 23. † iud. v. 4. & 6. rom. 9. 11. 12. 13. 17. 18. 22. with exod. 9 16. mal. 1. 3. mat. 25. 41. iob 4. 18. 2 pet. 2. 4. 12. 1 peter 2. 8. ioh. 3. 19 rom. 2. 5. prov. 16. 4. | gen. 1. chap. col. 1. 16. hebr. 11. 3. esa. 45. 12 rev. 4. 11. * gen. 1. 26. 27. eph. 4. 24. col. 3. 10. eccles. 7. 31. ‡ gen 3. 1. 4. 5. 2 cor. 11. 3. † 2 pet. 2. 4. iud vers . 6. iohn . 8. 44. | gen. 3. 1. 2. 3. 6 1 tim. 2. 14. ec. 7. 31. gal. 3. 22. * rom. 5. 12. 18 19. & 6. 23. with gen. 2. 17. ‡ rom. 5. 14. & 9. 11. † gen. 5. 3. & 6 5. psal. 51. 5. eph. 2. 3. rom. 5. 12. deut. 27. 26. & 28. 15. &c. * gen. 3. 15. eph 1. 3-7 . & 2-49 1 thes. 5. 9. 1 pet 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. gē . 15. 6. with rō . 4 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 22. 23. 24. 25. act. 13. 38. 39. 48. rom. 3. 24. 25. 26. 2 tim. 1. 9. phil. 3. 8. — 11 , † 1 cor. 1. 30. 31. 2 cor. 5. 21. ier. 23. 5. 6. & 9. 23. 24. * ioh. 17. 3. heb. 5. 9. ier. 23. 5. 6. ‡ 2 thes. 1. 8. iohn . 3. 36. zep. 1. 4. 5. 6. rom. 2. 8. 9. ioh. 5. 39. 2 tim 3. 15. 16. 17. deut. 4. 2. 5. 6. gen. 6. 22. exod 20. 4. 5. 6. & 39 42. 43. 1 chro. 28. 19. psal. 119 in the whole psa esa 8. 19 20. & ●9 . 13. mat. 15. 9. col. 2. 8. 18. 23. luk. 16. 29. 30. 31. gal. 1. 8. 9. 2 pet. 1. 16. 19. & 3. 2. rev. 22. 18. 19. deut. 18. 18. act. 3. 22. 23. heb. 1● . 2. and through the epistle . ioh. 1. 1. 14. 18. & 12. 49. 50 & 15 , 15 & 20. 31. prov. 8. 8. 9. and 30. 5 6. 2 tim. 3. 15. 16. 17. 2 cor. 1. 20. ‡ gen. 3. 15. & 22 , 18. & 49. 10 , dan 7. 13. & 9. 24. 25. 26. ier , 23. 5. 6. psa. 2. 2. 6. 7. 12. & 16. 10. & 110. with luk. 24. 44 ioh. 5. 46. actes . 10. 42. 43. & 13. 33. &c. and 17. 3. ‡ pro. 8. 22. mic. 5. 2. iob. 1. 1. 2 , 3 & 12. 37-41 . with esa. 6. 1. 1● and with act. 28 25. heb. 1. chap. col. 1. 15. 16. 17 & 2. 9. † gal. 4. 4. gen. 3. 15. | heb. 7. 14. rev. 5. 5. with gen. 49. 9. 10. * rom. 1. 3. & 9. 5. gen. 22 18. gal. 3. 16. mat. 1. 1. &c luk 3. 23. &c. esa. 7. 14. luk. 1 , 26 , &c , heb , 2 , 16 ▪ † heb , 4 , 15 , esa , 53 , 3 , 4 , 9 , phil , 2 , 7 , 8. * 1 tim. 2 , 5. heb 9. ●5 . and 13. 20 dā , 9. 24. 25. ioh 14. 6. act. 4. 12. ‡ heb. 1. 2. & . 3. 1 , 2. 3. & . 7 , 24. & 12. 24 — 28. psal. 110. 1. 2. 4 & . 45. deu. 18. 15. 18. esa. 9. 6 , 7. act. 5. 31. esa 55. 4 dā . 7. 13. 14. luk , 1. 32. 3● ▪ * pro. ● . 23. esa. 42. 6. & 49. 1 , 5 heb. 5 , 5 , 6. ‡ esa. 11. 2. 5 & 61. 1 , 2 , 3. with luk. 4 , 17. 22. act. 10. 38. ioh. 1. 14. 16. & 3. 34. 1 tim , 2 , 5 , heb , 7 , 24. dan. 7 , 14 , act , 4 , 12 , esa. 43. 11. luk , 1 , 33. iohn . 14. 6 , * ioh. 1. 18. & 12 49. 50. & 15 , 15 and 17 , 8. deut. 18. 15. 18 19. act. 3 , 22 , 23 , 24 mat. 17 5. eph. 1 8 , 9. 2 tim. 3. 15 16. 17. † prov. 9. 3. ioh. 13. 20. luk. 10. 16. mat. 10. 40 , 41. & 28. 18. 20 deut. 33. 8. 10. eph. 4. 7 , 8 , 11 , 12 , 13. | mat. 7. 15 , 16. & . ●4 . 23 , 24. 2 pet. 2. chap. tim. 4 , 3. 4. ro● 10. 14 , 15. & 1● 17. 1 tim. 6. 3 , ● 5. ier. 23 21. 〈◊〉 10 , 1 5. rev. ● 3. &c. * ioh. 17. 19 heb ● . 7. 8. 9. and 9. ●6 . esa. 53 ▪ chap. rom. 5. 19. 1 pet ● . 2. 19. eph. 5. 2. col. 1 , 20. gal. 3. ●3 . 14. † eph. 2. 14. 15. 16. dan. 9. 24. 27. heb. 9. & 10 chap. rom ▪ 8. 34 heb. 4. 14. 16. & 7. 25. ph. 2. 8-11 . | 1 pet. 2. 5. rev. 1. 5 , 6. and 8 3 4 rom ▪ 12-1 . 12. mar. 9. 49-50 . mal. 1. 14. ioh. 4 23. 24. mar. 7. 6 7. 8. esa. 1. 12. &c. * 1 cor , 15. 4. &c. 1 pet. 3. 21. ●2 . mat. 28. 18. 19 20 , psal. 2. 6 , act. 5. 30. 31. ioh ●9-36 , rev , 19 , ●6 . rom , 14 , 17 , ‡ ios , 5 , 14 , zac. ● 8 , &c , mar , 1 , ●7 , heb. 1. 14 , iohn , 16 , 7 — 15. | eph , 5 , ●6 , 27 rom , 5 , & 6 , & ● & 8 , chap , & 14 , 17 , gal , 5 , 22 23 , 1 ioh , 4 , 13 , &c. ‡ ioh , 13 , 1 , & 10 , 28 , 29 , and 14 , 16 , 17 , & 16 31 , 32 , with luk , 22 , 31 , 32 , 40. rom , 11 , 29 , psa , 51 , 10 , 11 , 12. & 89 , 30-34 , iob , 33. 29 , 30 , esa , 54 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 2 cor 12 , 7 , 8 ▪ 9 , eph , 6 10. &c. gal , 5 , 17 , 22. 23. † iob , 1 , 6 , and 2 , chap , 1 kin. ● , 19 , esa , 10 , 5 15 , rom , 1 , 2 , & 2 , 4. 5 , 6 & 9 , 17 , 18 , eph , 4 , 17 , 18. 19 , esa , 57 , 2● , 21 , 2 peter . 2 , chap , 1 cor , 15 , 24 , 28 , dan , 12 , 2 , 3. ioh , 5 , 22 , 28 , 29 heb , 9 , 28 , 2 thes 1 , 9 , 10 , mat , 13 , 41 , 49 , & 25 , 31. 1 thes , 4 , 15 16 , 17 , iohn , 17 , 21 , — 26 1 cor , 15. 28. * ioh , 18 , 36 , 1 tim. 3. 15 , heb 3 , 6 , 9. & 10. 21 zach , 4 , 7 , act , 20 , 28. t it 2 , ●4 , ‡ mat , 13 , 25 , 47 , & 22 , 12 , luk , 13 , 25 , 2 tim , 2 , 20 , | mar , 16 , 15 , 16 col , 1 , 21 , 1 cor , 6 , 11 , tit , 3 , 3. 4 , 5. * esa , 52 , 11 , ezra . 6 , 21 , act , 2 , 40 , & 17 , 3 , 4. & 19 , 9 , 2 cor , 6 , 14-18 1 pet , 2 , 4 , 5 , 9 , 25. † eph. 4 , 12 , 16 , esa , 60 , 4 , 8 , psa , 110 , 3 , act , 2 , 41 col , 2. 5 , 6 , esa , 59 , 21 , & 62 , 6. 1 iohn . 2. 27 , ephes. 4 , 7. 8 , 11 , 12 , ier. 3 , 15 , ezek , ● chap , zach , 11 heb. ●2 . 28. 2 mat. 28 , 20 1 tim , 6 , 13 , ● ‡ mat. 7 , 15. 24 , 23 , 24 , 2● . 4 , 3 , 4. ier , ● 30 , 31 , and 21 , deut. 12 ▪ 32. rev. ● 2 , and 22 , ●9 . * lev. 26 , 11 , 12. mat , 28 , 18. 19 , 20. rom , 9. 4. esa 59 , 20 , 21 , ezek. 48. 35 , 2 cor. 6 , 18. ‡ esa , 8 , 16 , 1 tim , 3 , 15 , & 4 , 16 , & 6-3 , 5 , 2 tim , 2. 15. tit , 1 , 9 deu , 31. 26. † psal , 46 , 4 , 5 ezek 47 , 1 , &c ioh , 1 , 16 , and 7 , 38. 39 , ep 4. 4. 7 | esa , 11 , 12 , ioh , 3 , 14 , & 12 , 32 , esa , 49 , 22 , * esa 55 , 1 , mat 6 , 33 , & 22 , 2 , &c , prov , 9 , 4 , 5 , ioh 7 ▪ 37 , ‡ deut , 12 , 5 , 11 , esa , 2 , 2 , 3 , & 14 1 , & 44 , 5 , zach , 14 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , act 2 , 41 47 , heb , 12 , 22 , &c , psal. 87 , 5 , 6 , song , 4 , 12. gal , 6 , 10 , eph , 2 19 , col , 1 , 12 , 13. * see article 18 afore . & exo. 25 2. & 35. 5. 1 cor. 12. 4. 5. 6 7. 12. 18. rom. 12. 4. 5. 6. 1 pet. 4. 10. ephes. 4. 16. col. 2. 5. 6. 19. † eph. 4. 8. 10. 11. 12. 13. rom. 12. 7. 8. & 16. 1 1 cor. 12. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 11. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 28. act. 6. 2. 3. & 14 , 23. & 20. 1● ▪ 28. phil. 1. 1. 1 pet. ● . 1. 2. ● 4. 1 tim. 3. ch● & 5. 3. 9. 17. 〈◊〉 with 6. 13. 1● ▪ rev 22. 18. 1● ▪ mat. 28. 20. * rom , 12 , 7. 8 eph , 4 , 11. 12 , with the epis , to tim , and tit , a●t , 6 , 3 , 5 , 6 , & 14. 23. & 20 17 , &c. 1 pet. 5 1 , 2 , 3 , 1 cor , 5 , 4 , &c , and 9 , 7 9. 14 , and 12 , 4 &c , & heb. 3. 2 6. & pro , 8 , 8 , 9 ‡ heb , 2 , 3 , and 3 , 3 , and , 1● , . 25 , &c. 1 tim 14-15 . & 6. 13. 14. 2 tim. 3 , 14 — 17 , gal , 1 , 8 , 9 , deut , 4 2 , and 12 , 32. revel , 22 , 18 , 19 * heb. 5. 4. num 16 , 5. 40. & 18. 7. 2 chron. 26. 18. iohn . 10. 1. 2. and 3. 27. act. 6. 3. 5. 6. & 14. 23. tit. 1. 5. ier. 23. 21. num. 8. 9. 10. † act. 20. 28. 1 cor. 4. 1. 2. col. 4. 17. 1 tim. 1. 18. 19. & 4. 12 ▪ & 5. 21. & 6. 11-14 . 2 tim. 1 , 13. 14. & 3. 14 ▪ & 4. 5. 1 pet 5. 1-4 ▪ ro● 12. 7. 8 mat. 28. 20. 1 cor. 4 , 17 , & 12 4-7 ▪ & 14. 33. 36 & 16 , 1 , eph. 4. 10-13 . rev. 1. 20 , & 2 & 3. chap. 1 cor , 3. 21. 22. 23. mat , 18 , 17. see besides these , the article 20. before . * act. 6. 3. 5. 6. & 14. 23 , & 15 2. 〈◊〉 . 23. 2 cor 8. 19. 1 tim. 3. 10. and 4. 14. & 5. 22. num. 8. 9. 10. 1 cor. 16. 3. † 1 thes. 5. 12. 13. 1 tim. 5. 3. 17. 18. heb. 13 17. 1 cor. 9. 7. &c. gal. 6. 6. | 1 tim. 3. 10. & 5. 22. rom. 16. 17. phil. 3. 2 1 tim. 6. 3. 5. ezech. 44. 12. 13. mat. 18. 17. * psal. 122. 3. act. 2. 47. rom. 16. 2. mat. 18. 17. 1 cor. 5. 4. 2 cor. 2. 6. 7. 8. lev. 20. 4. 5. & 24. 14. num 5. 2. 3. deut. 13. 9. ‡ act. 15. 2. 22 with 1 cor. 3. 5. 22. & 12. 20. & 14. 33. lev. 4. chap. 2 chron. 26. 20. psal. ● . 10. 11. 12 & 141. 5. and 149. 8. 9. act 11 2. 4. 1 tim. 5. 19. 20. 21. * act. 20. 17. 28. heb. 13. 17. 24 sōg . 3. 3. esa 62. 6. ezec. 33. 2. mat. 24. 45. luk. 12. 42. 1 thes. 5. 14. ‡ mar. 13. 34. 37. luk. 17. 3. gal. 6. 1. 1 thes. 5. 11. iude vers . ● . 20. heb. 10. 24 25. & 12. 15. mat. 28. 20. luk 12. 35. 36. 37. 38. rom. 16. 19 20. deut. 28. 1. &c. zach. 2. 5. & 12. ● . 3. 4. psal. 125. 2 ▪ and 132. 12. 13. &c. mat. 16. 18. 2 thes. 2. 3. 4 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. rev. 9. & 13. & 17. & 18. ch . 1 tim. 4. 1. 2. 3. psal. 74. esa. 14. 13. 14. dan. 7. 25. & 8. 10. 11. 12. & 11. 31 ▪ 2 pet. 2. chapt . 1 iohn . 2. 18. 22. & 4. 3. and 2 ioh. verse . 7. 9. rev. 9. 3. &c & 13. 15. 16. 17 & 18. 15. 17 , 2 thes. 2. 3. 4. 8. 9. with rom. 12 7. 8. with eph. 4. 11. 12. 1 tim 3. 15. & ● . 17. let this article be conferred with the precedent ▪ & 1. 7. 12. 13. 14 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 28. confer this article with the precedent 1. 7. 12. 13. 14. 19. &c. also revel . 9. 3. &c. & ●3 . 11. 15. 16. 17. & 14. 9. 10 11. & 17. 3 , 4 , ● . & 18. 15. 17 & 22. 18. 19. io● . 10 , ●1 , luk. ●2 . 25. 26. dan 7 , 8. 25. & . 8. 10. 11. 12. 2 thes 2. 3. 4 , 8 , 9. 1 pet. 5. 3. with ioh , 3. 27 , 29. with rev. 2. 1. 1 king. 12. 27. &c. zac , 11. 15. 16. esa. 1. 12. & 29. 13. & 30. 22 mar. 7. 7. 8. gal 1. 8. &c. & 2. 4. 5. col 2. 20. 22. 2● , 1 tim , 4. 1. 2. 3. eze , 8. 5. & 13 , 9. &c. mica . 2. 11. malach. 1. 8. 13. 14 , 1 cor. 14. 34 , 35. exod. 20 , 4. 5. 6. 7. num. 15. 39. 40. psal. 119. 22. 113 138. deut. 1● . 30. 31. 32. conferre this article with the precedent : see also rev , 18. 2. 3. 4. 5. 1 cor. 14 33. ier. 15 , 19 mal , 1. 4 , 6 , 8. hos. 4. 14. 15. rom. 6. 16. 2 pet. 2 , 19. lev. 17. 1 — 9. 1 cor. 10 , 14 , 17 , 18. 19. 20. 2 co● . 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. song . 1 , 6. 7. * rev. 18. 4. esa. 48. 20. & 52. 11. ier. 50. 8 & 1● . 6. 45. zach. 2. 6. 2 cor 6. 17. ‡ rev. 17. 16. mat. 22. 21. 2 chro. 14. 3. 4. 5. & 15. 8. 9. & 17. 6. 2 kin. 23. 5. &c. rom 13. 4. | rev. 18. 4. zach. 13. 2. 4. 5. 6 & 14. 21. ier. 51. 26. psal. 119 59. 60. 128. prov. 5. 20. esa. 8. 11. 12. & 35. 8. * rev. 18. 11. psal. 16. 3. 4. prov. 3. 9. 10. with exod. 20. 4. 5. iud. 17. 3. 4. 5. ezec. 16. 17. 18. 19. 1 cor 10. 19. 20. 21. 22 with heb. 13. 10 1 tim. 5. 17. 2 cor. 8 , 3. 4. 5. * gen 18 , 19. exod , 13. 8. 14. pro. 31. 26. 27. eph. ●6 . 4. 9 , deut. 6. 7. psal. 79. 3. 4. ‡ luk. 17. 37. phil. 1. ● . ier. 50 4. 5. act. 2. 41. 42. psal 110. 3. esa. 14. 1. & 44 5. neh. 9. 38. 2 cor. 9. 13. with | 1 cor. 1 , 2 , & 12 14. 27. & 14. 2● . & 16. 1. act. 14. 23. 27. & 15. 3. 4. & 16. 5. rom. 12. 5. mat. 18. 17. 18. 19. 20. rev. 1. 20. & 2. 18. 12. 18 & 3. . 17. 14 ▪ eph. 2. 19. col. 2. 19 , ‡ exod. 20 , 8. with rev. 1. 10 ▪ act. 20. 7. 1 cor. 16. 2. * 1 cor. 14. chap. rom. 12. 6. 1 pet. 4. 10. ●1 . 1 cor. 12. 7. act. 13. 15. 1 thes. 5. 20 ‡ heb. 5. 4. eph , 4. 11. 12. num 16. 10. 39. 40. rom. 12. 7. iohn . 1. 23. 25. 1 cor. 1. 14. 15. 16. 17. with chap. 3. 5. 6. ‡ act. 6. 3. 5. 6. & 14. 21. 22. 23. tit. 1. 5. &c. eph. 4. 11. 12. 1 cor. 12. 7. 8. 14. 15. 28 , 1 tim. 3. & 5. chap. lev , 8. chap. * col , 2. 5. 6. 7 , 2 thes. 2 , 15 , iude , ver . 3 , &c , mat. 28. 20 , † act , 2. 38. 39. with rom. 9. 4 , & gen , 17. 7. 12. 27. rom , 11 , 16. 1 cor , 1 , 16 & 7. 14 , & 10 2. psal , 21 , 30 , col. 2 , 11. 12 , exod , 12 , 48 , 49 act. 16 , 15 , 33. mar. 10. 13-16 gal. 3 , 28. 29. | mat , 26. 26. 27 , 1 cor. 11 , 28. & 10. 3. 4. 16. 17 & 12. 13 act , 2 , 42 , with 1 , 14 , & 20. 7. 8. gal , 3. 28. ‡ mat. 26 , 26. 17. 1 cor , 10 , 3. 4. 16 , & 11. 23 24-29 , * 1 cor. 10 , 16. 17 , & 11. 23 , 24 25. &c. mat. 26 , 26 , 27. 29. & 15. 17. iohn . 12. 8. act. 3 , 21 , & 7. 56. † gen , 17. 11. rom , 4. 11. exo. 12. 13 , with heb 13 , 20. | 1 cor. 10 , 3 , 4. 5 , & 11. 26. 27. 28. 29. & 12. 13. rom. 2. 28. 29 , col. 2. 11 , 12. 13. act 8. 13. 36. 37 , 38. & 15. 9. gal. 3 , 27. rom. 5. & 6. and 7. and 8 , chap. 1 cor. 1. 30. 31. rev. 2 , & 3● chap. act , 15 1 , 2 , 1 cor. 1. 10. phil. 2. 1-6 . & 3 , 15. 16 , heb. 10 , 25 , iude. ver , 19 , lev. 4 , 13 , &c , 2 chron , 15. 9 , 17 , & 30. 18 19 , 2 cor 13 , 1 , 2 , 1 these . 5. 14 ▪ 2 thes 3. 6. 14 ▪ mat. 18. 17. 1 cor. 5 , 4 , 5 , * 1 cor. 14. 23. 24 , 25. psal. 18. 49. rom. 15. ● 10. 1 tim. 2. 4. 2 tim. 2. 25. ‡ 2 cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. ezr. 4 , 3. exod 12 , 43. lev. 22. 25 , deut , 7 , chap. exod. 34 , 12 , esa. 44. 5. psal. 47. 9 , & ●10 , 3. act. 1● , 18. 19. † exod. 20 , 5 , 6. 1 cor , 7 , 14 , gen , 17. 7. 12. ●7 , exod , 12 , 48. 49. act , 16 15. 33. eph , 4 , 4. 5. see also artic. 35 , before . | act. 9. 26. 27. & 18. 27. rom. 16 1. 2. 2 cor , 8. 23. col. 4. 10. psal , 122. 3 , sōg 8 8 , 9. 1 cor. 4. 17 and 14 , 33. 36 & 16. 1. col. 4. 16. mat. 28. 20 ● tim 13. 15. & 6. 13 , 14. rev 22 , 18 , 19. col. 2. 6. 19 & 4 , 16 act. 15. cap. see besides the artic. 1. 22. 33. * rom. 13 , 1 , 2 ▪ 1 pet , 2. 13 , 14 , 2 chron , 19 , 4 , &c. & 29 , & 34 , chap , iudg , 17 , 5 , 6. mat , 22 21. tit. 3 , 1 , † 2 king , 23 , 5 , &c , deut , 12. 2 , 3 , with , 17. 14. 18. 19 , 20. 2 kin 10. 26. 27. 28. 2 chron. 17. 6. psal , 101 , pro. 16. 12. & 25. 2. 3. 4 , 5 , act. 19. 27. rev , 17 ▪ 16 & 18. 11. 12 &c. ‡ esa. 49. 23. & 60. 3. 10. 11. 12 , rev. 21 , 24. deut. 17. 14. 18 19. 20. psal. 2. 10. 11. 12 , and 72. 1 , &c , & 10● ▪ ios. 1. 7. 8. 2. chr. 17. 4 , — 9 , & 19 4 , &c. & 29 , & 30 , chap. dan 6. 25 , 26 , esr , 7. 26 pro. 16 , 10 , 12. 13 , & 20. 28. & 29 , 14. esa. 10 , 1 2 , 1 tim. 2. 2 , 1 pet. 2 , 13 , 14. rom , 13. 3. 4. * act , 9 , 31 , pro 16 , 15. esra . 5. & 6. ch , 1 tim , 2 , 2. dan , 6 , 25 , 26 , rev , 21 , 24 , ‡ act , 4. 18 , 19 & 5. 28 , 29 , dan , 6 , 7. 8. 9 , 10 , luk. 21 , 12 , 13 , mat. 28. 20 , 1 tim , 5 , 21 , & 6. 13. 14. † psa , 20 , 9 , & 72 , 1 , 1 tim. 2. 4. 2 chro , 15. 1 , 2 , hag. 1. 1 , 4. 14. & 2 , 5. psal , 126 , 1 , &c , esa , 49. 23 & 60 , 16. ps 21 & 72 , rō . 13. 3 , 1 tim , 2. 2. 3. 4 , act , 9. 31. * act , 2 , 40-42 & 4 , 19 , & 5 , 28 , 29. 41 , & 16. 20 , &c , & 17. 6 , 7. & 20 , 23 , 24 , 1 thes , 3. 3. phil. 1. 27 28 , 29 , dan , 3 , ●6-18 , & 6. 7. 10 , 22 , 23. 24. luk , 14. 26 , 27. & 21 12-14 . 2 tim , 2 , 12. & 3. 12 heb. 10 , 32 &c , 1 pet. 4 , chap , rev. 2 , 10. 25. 26. & 6. 9 , & 12. 11 , 17. ‡ mat. 28. 18 , 19. 20 , 1 tim , 6 , 13 , 14 ▪ 15. 16 rom , 12 , 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. 5 , 6. 7. 8 , 1 cor. 14 , 37 2 tim , 4 , 7 , 8 , rev , 2 , 10 , and 14 , 12. 13. & 22 , 16 , 17. 18. 19 , 20. r●m , 13 , 1. 5. 6 , 7 mat , 22 , 21. ● chron , 27 , chap. ezra , 7. 26 , neh 9. 36. 37. tit. 3 1 , 1 pet. 2 , 13 , &c ex. 18. 12 & 20 , 12. &c. lev 19. 32. iob. 29 , 7. &c , with 30 , 1 &c , eph , 5. 21-33 , & 6. 1-9 . 1 pet. 5 , 5 , tit. 2. chap , mat , 22 , 21. act 24. 14. 15. 16. ioh. 5. 28. 29. dan. 12. 2. 2 cor 4. 17. 1 tim. 6. 3 4. 5. & 2. tim 1. 13. and 3. 14 15. 16. 17. mat. 6. 9-13 . luk. 11. 2. 3. 4. with mat. 14 30. & 26. 39. 42. act. 1. 24. 25. and 4. 24. 30. & 6. 4. rom 8. 26. 27. & 15 30. 31. 32. 1 pet 2. 5. iam. 1. 5. 6. and 5. 13. 1 tim. 2. 1. 2. 3. eph. 6. 18. ●● 1 thess. 5. 17. 18. phil. 4. 6. rev. 3. 4. a shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by iean de l'escluse in his advertisment against mr. brightman here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled, the profane schisme of the brovvnists. by iohn fovvler. clement saunders. robert 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a01099) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 2643) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 989:10) a shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by iean de l'escluse in his advertisment against mr. brightman here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled, the profane schisme of the brovvnists. by iohn fovvler. clement saunders. robert bulvvarde. fowler, john, brownist. saunders, clement. aut bulwarde, robert. aut 3 leaves, 4-40, [1] p. by henry laurenson dvvelling vpon the vvater at the signe of the vvriting booke, printed at amsterdam : 1612. a reply to "an advertisement to everie godly reader of mr. thomas brithsman his book" by jean de l'écluse, and a clarification of "the prophane schisme of the brownists" by christopher lawne and the authors of the present work. from p. 4 on, even numbers are on the rectos. reproduction of the original in cambridge university library. created 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tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng l'écluse, jean de. -advertisement to everie godly reader of mr. thomas brithsman his book. prophane schisme of the brownists. brownists -controversial literature. 2006-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-12 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-06 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by iean de l'escluse in his advertisment against mr. brightman . here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled , the profane schisme of the brovvnistes . by iohn fovvler . clement saunders . robert bulvvarde . luk. 12. vers . 2. for there is nothing covered , that shall not be revealed , neither hid , that shall not be knovvne . printed at amsterdam by henry laurenson dvvelling vpon the vvater at the signe of the vvriting booke . 1612. a declaration touching a booke lately printed & entituled , the profane schesme of the brovvnistes . christian reader , there vvas of late a booke published in london vnder this title , the profane schisme of the brounistes ; such a booke indeed vve sent by one of vs to be printed there , but in the publishing thereof great iniury hath bene done vnto vs , & chiefely three vvayes , by addition , by detraction & by alteration of the same : for the first , besides the addition of sundry harsh vvordes & phrases of heresies , blasphemies , diabolus , horrible crimes & c. in such place vvhere they vvere not vsed by vs , vvhich yet according to the doctrine of the brovvnistes themselves may iustly be applyed vnto them ; besides the addition in the title of the booke vvhich is doubly encreased by the publisher thereof ; beside the addition of the other titles of the severall chapters vvith a nevv table thereof added in stead of that vvhich vve had made ; besides sundry other such additions , there be also added some thinges directly contrary to our meaning & such as never came into our heads , as namely those vvordes in the end of the preface , as also to vvarne all such as haue bene the occasion of those heresies & schismes to conforme themselues to the church of god , that these caterpillars may no more rise out of them . and although vve be & c. by those vvordes the reader might conceive as though vve affirmed those ministers vvhich do refuse subscription & conformity vnto the prelacy & superstitious ceremonies vsed in the church of england , to have bene the occasion of brovvnisme & guilty of that schisme &c. but the truth is othervvise , there vvere no such vvordes vvritten in the booke vvhich vve sent to be printed , but they are foysted in & obtruded vpon vs by some falsifyer vvithout our knovvledge or consent , our iudgement is that the tyranny of lord bbs & their impositions are a stumbling block vnto many that are vveake vvhich do thereby take occasiō to fall from the church & to runne into schisme . vve assure our selves that if there vvere in the church of england such a reformatiō of the prelacy & ceremonies as is desired by the ministers there & is also obteyned in other reformed churches , there vvould not thē be such a defection vnto brovvnisme as novv the re is . vve knovv indeed that the brounistes do ioyne vvith the prelates in vpbrayding the ministers vvith this thing & vvould seeme to build their separation vpon the testimony of the ministers , as appeareth by this booke of delescluse , vvhere he labours to conclude their separation from certaine speeches of mr. brightman testifying against the corruptions of the church of england , but hovv vniustly & absurdly he hath done the same vve hope it vvil evidently appeare by this refutation follvving . secondly , there is in summe left out the greatest part of the booke vvhich vve sent to be printed , yea in exact account there is not a fourth part there of that is printed : in speciall there is not a third part of the preface printed vvherein our reasons for the maner of publishing that booke are conteyned ; there is left out a large ansvver vnto a narratiō vvrittē by mr. iohnson touching an offer of conference that vvas made vnto him ; likevvise the ansvver vnto the groundes of scripture alledged by m. iohnson in in defence of separation is left out ; divers testimonies of dutch & french ministers against thē be omitted , vvith other vvritinges of iohn iohnson & george iohnson that should have bene printed : the greatest part of the vilest slanders of the brounistes are left out : the greatest number of the chapters by far is omitted ; that vvhich should have bene the tenth chapter is made the first nine of the first being altogether omitted , besides sundry other in the middes of the booke ; & of those chapters that are there , no one of thē is fully set doune , & in some of thē more thē half the matter omitted : divers strāge matters are noted in the booke , but the occasiō there of , the profes thereof vvith the ansvver vnto the vaine cavilles & shiftes of the brounistes about the same are omitted , & in respect of these omissiōs divers thinges so abruptly set dovvne may seeme more harsh & also more incredible vnto the reader ; so that hereby it may easily appeare hovv vve are iniuried by vnreasonable omissions as vvell as by vniust additions . thirdly , for the method & order of setting dovvne these thinges that are printed , there is great alteratiō therein also : thinges spokē vpō one occasiō are related vpon an other , & not in their due place ; the speeches of one mā are so set doune as if they had bene spokē by an other ; the speeches of divers men are peeced togather as if they had bene spokē by one & the same person . in these & such like chāges both vve & those vvhose testimonies are alledged by vs have receyved some further iniurye . besides these thinges there be also as it appeareth many literall faults in the misprinting of sundry vvordes vvhich do much corrupt the sense of sundry thinges in the booke . and though thus many & great iniuries be done vnto vs yet do vvee not hitherto fully vnderstād by vvhō they are done : onely this vve vnderstād by a letter sēt frō chr. lavvne vvho vvas ētrusted vvhich this busines , that the according to the order in such like cases seeking vnto such as vvere appoynted for the allovvāce of bookes to be printed , & leaving it in the hāds of a certaine chaplaine of the archb to get it read over & vievved ūtill he himself might returne out of the coūtry into vvhich he vvas thē going dovvne before he could come vp to lōdō againe he foūd the booke already printed cōtrary to his expectatiō , & in the printing thereof so mangled & defaced as is above specifyed . and hovvsoever vve do novv disclayme this booke above mentioned as none of ours being thus corruptly printed vvith such additions , omissions & alterations , yet do vve still acknovvledge that all the particular matters of fact recorded against the the brvvonistes in that booke are such tiges as vvere takē out of our vvriting ▪ & for proofe thereof vve are able & ready to produce our testimony & vvitnesse as occasion shall requi●e ; the most of thē are testifyed & cōfessed by thēselves & the most heynous thinges evē vnder their ovvne hād vvriting ; & the rest are such thīges as either vve our selves or others vvil vvitnesse . and therfore though vve complaine brovvnistes insult there vpon ; though vve be vvronged , yet are not they cleared from the matters there noted vvhich are still in force against them . our desire & our purpose is hereafter as occasion , opportuinty & meanes shal be offred more fully to manifest their profane schisme by the publishing of those thinges vvhich formerly have bene omitted , & in the meane time vve do here present vnto the reader a fevv observations vpon the advertisement of iean delescluse vvhich he hath vvritten against mr. brightman & against the communion of saintes ; his perverse collections for separation dravvne from mr. brightman his testimony , vve have here shevved to be vaine & vvicked . the principles of brovvnisme vvhich he hath briefely alledged are here breefely ansvverd , yet so as that the vanity & errour of their separation may be easily discerned hereby : this labour vve have vndertaken cheefely for the comfort & helpe of those vveake brethren , vvho either do not sufficiently vnderstād the iniquity of this errour of the brounistes or els do not duely consider the danger of this schisme vvhich as it dayly breakes it self in pieces , so vvould it also break , ruinate & overthrovv all the churches that should admit & receyve the same . vvhen corruptions do encrease & are maynteyned , let the godly vvitnesse against the same , but let them not fret vnto separation , & so shall they vvalke vvith christe in vvhite , reu. 3. 4. an ansvver vnto the advertisement of iean delescluse concerning mr. brightman vpon the apocalyps . 1. whereas in his title he pretendes to advertise the godly reader , whom afterward in his epistle he calles gentle reader and christian reader , marke how this man doth mocke his reader ; for by his profession of brownisme he holdes all the membres of the church of england to be no visible christians , to be without true faith & without godlines , even eve-ry one as they are publique professours of the gospel in that church & yet here in this flattering title of his english booke he dissembles notably as though he would honour & record their godlines ; and thus in the very forehead of his booke , his hypocrisy beginnes to shew it self . 2. vvhereas in his title he takes on him to advertise every godly reader of mr. tho. brightmā his booke , how absurd & senselesse is it ? there be many godly readers of mr. brightmās booke which vnderstād no english at al , seing it is extant in latine , & yet he writes in english to advertise every one of them . 3. in the same place he alledgeth against the church of england that saying of the prophet 1. kim 18. 21. how long halt ye betweene two opinions ? if the lord be god follow him , but if baal be he then go after him . this is vniustly applied against them who are assured of their lawfull communion with that church ; but this sentence or the like may much more fitly be alledged against the divided & distracted brownistes , who halt betweene two opinions , & betweene two communions , some halting after the franciscane order , sone limping after the ainsworthian & popular order , some hanging in doubt betwixt both opinions , so that they dare not ioyne to either of them , but walk alone . 4. the first cause which mooved him to put forth this writing in defence of the separatiō , he sets downe in these wordes : * first the glory of my god etc. what meanes he by this speech of his god , in saying , the glory of my god ? hath he and his flock a speciall god of his owne more then other churches of christe ? it is true indeed that david & other faithful servants of god do often with the voyce of faith vse to speak of god in this manner , my king and my god as ps . 84. 3. but yet if we looke a litle further into the profession of the brownistes we may easily imagine some other cause of their speaking on this manner : for whereas r. r. in his prophecying among the prophets of mr. anisworthes company testifyed against their separation & iustifyed the church of england to be a true church , being for this vniustly excommunicate of that company it was as vniustly defended by mr. ainsworth , who layd this groud of his excommunicatiō frō deu. 13. 1. 2. &c. that he had sought to turne thē away frō the lord their god & had perswaded them to go after other gods and to serve thē , & all this onely for perswading that it was lawfull to heare a sermō in the church of engl. to pray with thē &c : in this proceeding they declare that they hold the church of engl. to be withovt the true god in that they cōdemne those that ioyne with the same to turne away frō the lord their god & to go after other god● and therfore no marvel if according to this opinion they speak of their special god , intending an other god whom we know not . this may yet further appeare in the speech of delecluse who being blamed for his schisme from the french church hath here vpon cōdemned that reformed church as having christe to be neither their king , priest nor prophet : and if they be without christe then are they without true god , ioh. 2. epist . vers . 9. and ioh. 17. 3. according to these speeches it is not strange nor inconsequent that he should meane his speciall god in the forenamed phrase . iemar the monstro●s arrian pretending that we erre about the nature of christe doth blasphemously affirme that our god is no better then the planke vnder his foote , delescluse the inordinate brownist pretending that christe is not our king doth hereby sacrilegiously both deprive christe , of his people & his people of their god , their saviour & their mediatour : and thus while he pretendes the glory of his god , he treades vnder his feete the glory of that everlasting god , who is the god & king of all the reformed churches round about . 5. againe in his declaratiō of this first moving cause that made him to publish this treati●e in defence of brownisme , he alledgeth divers scriptures which teach that the people of god ought to be holy as the lord is holy , as namely , levit. 19. 2. 1. pet. 1. 5. 16. but what meanes he by this ? can not the people of god be holy & sanctifyed vnlesse they separate from the churches as the brownistes doe ? or can they not give glory vnto god without their separation ? we see the contrary throughout the scriptures ; the , * holy prophets , the holy apostles , and iesus christe that holy one of god did keepe a holy communion among open obstinate sinners and glorified god thereby and this also in a church that was far more corrupt than that reformed church from which this delescluse hath schismed and runne away ▪ 6. vnto his other allegation , that all those that call vpon the name of christe should depart from iniquitye , 2. tim. 2. 19. it may also be answered as the former that the most holy servants of god , most zealous of his glory have kept communion which open sinners as offensiue as 〈…〉 the church of england , & yet departed from iniquity : it is a great 〈◊〉 in schismatiques that cannot distinguish betwixt departing from iniquity and departing from a church where iniquity is tolerated . christe 〈…〉 iniquity of the pharisees and sadducees and and yet departed 〈…〉 fellowship of that church , where in they remayned . 7. the second reason which he alledges for his writing of this treatise is the fervent desire which ( he sayth ) he hath of the salvation of mens soules and the gayning of them vnto god , if this be so ( as he boasteth ) we do prayse and commend him for it , but yet if he had bene as sober and modest as he is fervent , he would not have bene so forward to prayse his owne fervency , in that we commend him not , nor yet in this , that he seemes to seeke the salvation of mens soules by leading them into his schisme or separation . 8. in the declaration of this second reason he telles vs that the meanes of saying soules is to shew vnto the their erring from the truth and from going astray out of the way , iam. 5. 19. 20. : but how vnfit a man is iean delescluse for such a purpose ? do not all the brownistes generally know and consider how prone this man is to runne into errour and to go astray out of the way before many others ? among all their prophets is there any which in the exercise of prophecy have so often bene corrected for errour as this man ? his manner is indeed to be fervent and hote , but in his heate so rash and inconsiderate that often he vtters erroneous thinges and often by mr. iohnson and daniel studly hath he bene reproved and convicted of the same . he that hath so often receyved open shame and rebuke for his errour is not so meete a man to become the censurer of so learned and iudicious a writer as mr. brightman is generally acknowledged to be . 9. the third reason which he alledgeth for the publishing of this treatise , is in respect of him self , having had a hand both in the translating and printing of mr. britghtman his booke etc. but of this he may speake with shame enough in respect of his vnfaithfull dealing herein : for being appoynted by his maisters that set him on worke to print this booke & that without any leave to comment vpon it or to adde his censures , what doth this coosening companion but goes & causeth his gloses to be printed in the margent of this booke ? he there lets downe in opposition vnto mr. brightman , his contradictions of him , his interrogations , his exclamations against him o england etc. o brightman etc. yea his citations of him vnto indgement , let god and his angelles and all the world indge etc. and thus without the consent or license of those that employed him in their busines , he defaces & disgraceth the work committed vnto him , offendeth his maisters , wronges the reader , & iniurieth the authour of the books who now sleepeth in peace with the lord : but when this his deceit was found out , those that were at cost & charges for the printing of this booke did then call him to account for this his bad daaling & in fine compelled him at his owne charges to take the paines to alter and set over againe those sheetes of the booke which he had corrupted & defaced with his marginall gloses & then to leave out those gloses which he had before so boldly & deceitfully inserted in that worke : for the evidence & truth of this matter we have both the testimony of those that set him on worke , as also his owne handy-work to reprove him , viz. the misprinted sheetes , the tokens of his deceit , which we keep by vs for a monument of his falshood . the truth is that iean delescluse did fret & chafe when this rebuke was layd vpon him , but howsoever part of his punishment was remitted vnto him , yet was there no remedy , divers sheetes must needes be printed againe & he must endure the paine & labour for the setting of the same : and thus we may see the saying of the wise man to be verifyed in him , the deceitfull man costeth not that which he tooke in hunting , prov. 12. 27. the wages which he got by setting those sheets deceitfully at first was not so much , but the labour the losse & the shame withall which he had at the reprinting thereof may well be thought to be much more . 10. in the declaration of this his third reason , he telles vs of his full perswasion that there be errours & abberrations in mr. br. his book & therfore addeth further ; if i had held my peace and sayd nothing i could not have cleared my self from partaking with other mens synnes ; and so should have done contrary to that holy commandement of the apostle to timothy , 1. tim. 5. 22. according to this profession of conscience , if it be vnfeigned in him , it may be further demanded of him . 1. vvhy did he not also put forth some short writing against the latine editiō of mr. br. his booke , seing he the same iean delescluse had also a hand in the printing of it heretofore ? that book in latine hath bene out now these divers yeares ; & never till this time hath he cleared himself by any writing against it , so long therfore he may seeme to have partaken with an other mans sinne . 2. vvhereas mr. th. hath hath had a hand in the printing of mr. robinsons booke against mr. bernard , & there being in it divers errours & aberratiōs from the truth of the living god , & this not onely in the iudgement of mr. iohnson who hath openly protested against the manifold errours therein , but also in the iudgement of mr. ainsworth himself & his company , how comes it now to passe that mr. th. hath not the like care & conscience to put forah some short writing against that booke as wel as delescluse against mr. br. his booke ? why doth not i. delescluse call vpon his fellow in like manner ? why doth he suffer mr. th. to partake with mr. robinsons errours by printing his booke ? 3. vvhereas this iean delescluse was heretofore a cardmaker , seing he hath had a hand in making those cardes that are the bookes of gamesters & idle persons seing many persons might be offended & scandalized by the vse of those play-bookes , why hath he not had the conscience to put forth some short writing against those bookes of vanity ? why is he not afraid of partaking with the sinnes of those gamesters whose handes have handled the cardes that were the worke of his hādes ? vvhy did he never yet cleare himself of this evill ? a good conscience is without * partiality & seekes to prevent one offence as wel as an other . vvhat can he answer to these thinges ? when he hath answered these thinges , we have sundry more such like to demand of him . 11. besides his partiality above noted , marke his folly also in this dealing , for if it were no sin to have a hand in the printing of mr. brightmans booke , thē what neede he to seek the clearing of himself by writing against the booke : if it were a sin to have a hand in the printing thereof , thē how foolish is he to think he could by an after testification cleare himself from that sinne which he did first willingly commit ? if this were a watrrantable course why might he not still follow his old trade of cardmaking & then afterwardes cleare himself by witnessing & writing against them ? why might he not also make idoles or images & afterwardes cleare himself frō partaking with the sinne of idolatours by testifying against them ? behold here the extreme absurdity of the brownistes who condemne our communiō where we duely testify against the evilles cōmitted by others whiles they think to iustify themselves by testifying against those evilles in the committing whereof they them selves have a hand . 2. in a due testification against evill , the testimony ought to be as large as the evill , the plaister ought to be as large as the soare ; but delescluse is vncertayne whether his writing ( which he countes a plaister for the errours and sores in mr. br. his booke ) shall ever spread so far as mr. br. his booke , & therfore it must needes be folly and sin in him that shall voluntarily and wilfully publish such thinges which he accountes as stumbling blockes layd before the blinde , while he is ignorant whether his labour shall ever come so far as to help the removall thereof in many places . 12. in the subscription of his epistle he vnder writes thus thine as thou art the lordes iean delescluse , that is to say , thine as thou art a brewnist and a separatist , for al the promises of god and of salvation , they do oft appropriate vnto those that separate : those onely they declare to be the lords as touching their visible estate : therfore howsoever he wold seeme to professe friendship , it is but hypocrisy : beware of such f●endes . 13. let vs now come from his epistle to the book it self , where in he takes vpon him to shew how corruptly mr. brightman hath taught that the church of england is not to be separated from not withstanding all the sinnes and abhominations that are in the same : this poynt he sets downe both in the title of his booke and in his epistle againe , as the butte or white at which he meanes to shoote , against this make he bendes his bow and prepares his arrowes vpon the stinge : and for the proofe of this poynt he sets downe ten speciall speeches which mr. brightman hath vttred touching the corruptions of the church of england . the first speech he * alledgeth are these wordes of mr. brightman , i could not but mourne from the bottome of my heart , when i beheld in her christe loathing vs , and very greatly provoked against vs. here vpon iean deslescluse inferreth thus : i desire the reader to observe the word which he vseth of christe lothing them , which word of loathing seemeth to be taken from the 95. psal . vers . 10. where the prophet speaking in the person of the lord him self , sayth that fourty yeares long he had loathed that generation : saying that they are a people ●rring in their heart and not knowing his wayes , wherfore he sware in his wrath that they should not enter into his rest . so that by mr. brightmans owne grant , this church of england is in no better estate then were these rebelles in the wildernes , all which were consumed and entred not into his rest as he had sworne . first , this inference of delescluse is vtterly false , for though mr. b. should grant the same phrase to be vsed both of england & israel , yet doth it not follow by this grant , that england is in no better estate then those rebelles in the wildernes ; for the holy ghost often vseth ore & the same generall worde or phrase touching divers sinners which yet not with standing may not therfore be all alike so condemned , but that some of them may be in better estate then others : for example , it is sayd that the lord was angry with israel in the dayes of iehoahaz , 2. kin , 13. 3. it is also sayd in the like phrase of speech that the wrath of the lord was kindled against israel in the dayes of david , 2. sam. 24. 1. doth it now follow that israel in the dayes of david was in no better estate then in the dayes of iehoahaz ? the contrary is most evident & plaine , israel being at one time a true church & at th' other a false church by the * confession of the brownistes themselves : it is sayd in one generall phrase , i hate all false wayes , ps . 119. 128. now it is one false way to be hated or loathed that the high places were reteyned in the dayes of iehoash & others 2. kin . 12. 3. & 14. 4. it was an other false way that the goldē calves & baal were worshipped by the kinges of israel : doth it now follow that these people were one of them in no better estate then the other , because the phrase of hating or loathing might be vsed against both of them ? nothing lesse . to come neerer vnto them ; mr. robinson accounting it a false way & a violation of gods ordinance in mr. ainsworthes company that they have no separation of their aimes among them , it followes herevpon that in his account also the word of loathing or hating may be vsed against them , seing every false way reteyned is to be loathed ; and further mr. robinson holdes it a false way & order of government that is practised in mr. iohnsons church , which is therfore also to be loathed by them : doth it now follow from hence that by this graunt mr. ainsworthes company is in no better estate then mr. iohnsons , because of the same word of loathing attributed vnto both of them ? nothing lesse . the matter being thus made plaine vnto them , the simplest among them may see , what a corrupt & blinde maner of reasoning is here vsed by their elder delescluse . secondly , suppose it were granted that the church of tsrael were in no better estate then israel in the wildernes , yet what is this to the scope and purpose of his booke ? doth this prove that the church of england is therfore to be separated from ? nay , the contrary appeareth hence , seing it is vndeniably true that even israel in the wildernes notwithstanding all their abhominations which the lord loathed were yet a true church and communion with them was lawfull , as appeares in the example of moses , ioshua , aaron and other faithfull servants of god remayning among them ; and therfore so might it be with england also though being in no better estate . and thus the same arrow that he shootes at vs returnes vpon himself and pearceth the side of his owne separation . 14. in the next place he procedes & labours to perswade his reader , that the lord hath more iust cause to wath the church of england , then that of the israelites in the wildernes : vvel , suppose now , that this also were granted vnto him , would this prove that we should then separate from england ? in no sort ; for the lord had more cause to loath the church of israel in the dayes of christe , then in the wildernes , and yet even then also there was a lawfull communion with that church when the measure of their iniquity was greater , and when there was a greater then moses to convince them of that wickednes : and thus we see how that still he comes short of the mark he shootes at , seing greater abhominations then those of israel in the desert are yet no sufficient ground of separation . 15. for the further declaration of this matter , let vs a litle examine his particular instances here alledged by him , first ( sayth he ) that church had a true ministery , and true offices and officers , and so hath not the church of england by mr. brightmans owne graunt . first , let it be considered how vnworthy a thing it is , that this man which is himself an vsurper and a false officer should thus take vpon him to dispute about the ministery and the offices in the churches of god : for first , when he was yet with mr. iohnson , he was then a false officer , that whole company being in schisme & therfore a false church yeelding no lawfull officers ; 2ly , suppose mr. iohnsons company had bene a true church , and he a true officer in it yet seing he hath now schismed from that company , and was also deposed from his office by mr. iohnson and his assistants , how can he in this schisme be reputed a true minister ? 3ly , when he was yet a member of the french chuch and did there earnestly seek an office , after tryall of his giftes he was repelled and iudged insufficient and vnmeete to be a minister : now then shall he that was both kept out from entring into an office as vnworthy , and againe thrust out of an office as vnworthy after he had entred , and this both by a true reformed church and by the brownistes themselves , shall this vnworthy person come now and in the middes of his vnworthines pronounce sentence touching the truth or falshood of offices & ministeries in the church ? secondly , let it be considred , how he abuseth & wrongeth mr. brightman in saying that the church of england hath not a true ministery , offices & officers & that by mr. brightmans owne graunt : for though mr. br. do iustly complaine that the church of england wanteth some offices which it should have , & againe that it hath some officers which it should not have , yet doth he not affirme a true ministery to be altogather wanting , he doth not deny but that there are some true offices & officers therein . thirdly , though there be that defect in the ministery of the church of engl. which mr. brighman noteth , how doth delescluse prove from thence , that separation must reedes follow ? for this he bringes not so much as any shew of proofe from the scriptures to iustify such a consequence 16. that second particular exception which he bringeth touching persecution by the officers in the church of england is againe repeated by him in his tenth speech of mr. brightmans which he alledgeth & is there answered , for which see the 38. section following . 17. the third particular differēce which he affirmeth to have bene betwixt israel & eng. is , that their governmēt in israel was not a mixt governemēt partiy of the egiptians , partly of the moabites and edomites or cananeans , but simple and and pure according to the true patterne shewed to moses in the mount ; but that of england is not so , for mr. brightman affirmeth it to be partly romish and partly reformed etc. first , if it be true that mr. robinson writeth , viz. that the church officers , the priests & levites in the iewish church to whō the charge of the whole congregation for the service of the tabernackle did appertayne , had no authority by the order of their office to inflict any censure spiritually vpon the people , but onely to interpret the law ett . answ . to mr. bern. pag. 198. then is all this idle which delescluse doth here speak of their government : if the ecclesiasticall officers did exercise no government at all , then is it in vayne to dispute of the purity of a thing that was nothing . secondly , if that excommunication or dissynagogueing noted ioh. 9. 22. was but a iewish devise and without warrant of the scriptures , as both * mr. robinson doth write , and mr. smith also hath written before him , then was the governmēt of the iewes a devised governemēt , an impure ād mixt governemēt , partly divine and partly humane ; and yet not with standing this mixt government we see there was then a lawfull communion ; that mixture of devised governemēt was no ground of separation , as this delescluse would vainely collect against mr. britghman and against the church of england . thirdly , if a mixt governement be a ground of separation , then is mr. ainsworthes company to be reiected seing it doth exercise a popular confused and mixt government , consisting partly in the power of the officers , but chiefely in the power of the people : and thus the collection of delescluse serves to overthrow his owne governement : and the shame of this their mixed governemēt which mr. iohnson hath affirmed to be worse then the goverement of the church of england , doth in this respect lye the more heavily on them in that mr. iohnson hath also in a printed booke condemned the same , which booke the ainswort hians have not yet answerd . 18. the fourth particular instance which he bringeth to prove the difference betwixt israel & england is this : none of that church ( sayth he ) were admitted vnto any office but onely such as were lawfully called therevnto as aaron was , but so it is not in england etc. first , it is onely the bare affirmati of delescluse that sayth of the church of israel that none were there admitted vnto any office but onely such as were lawfully called as aaronwas ; where is his proofe from the scriptures where of he boasted in his epistle . secondly , it is a false affirmation of delescluse , for when annas & caiaphas did enterchangeably execute the high priestes office , as appeareth luk. 3. 2. ioh. 11. 51. it was not possible that both of them could be lawfully admitted vnto the execution of that office which was peculiar vnto one man during his life . thirdly , seing mr. iohnson hath offred to prove vnto mr. ainsworth & his company that in their popular governement they are like ▪ vnto korah & his company ambitiously vsurping an office wherevnto they are not lawfully called & that vpon the korites ground , numb . 16. 3. it had bene much fitter that mr. ainsworth or delescluse should have defended & cleared themselves of the evill which they lay vpon others by writing against mr. iohnson about these thinges while he is yet alive to auswer for himself , rather then to wri●e against mr. bright man that is dead & now resteth from his labours in the lord , especially seing mr. iohnson hath so often entreated , provoked & vrged mr. ainsworth therevnto & that openly in their congregation , before the rent was made : yea besides respect of the matter it self , are they not specially bound for their old covenant sake to shew the franciscanes their errour & that by writing rather then to deale with strangers . 19. from these instances above mentioned he drawes a terrible conclusion on this manner , therefore it doth necessarily follow that the estate of the church of england is worse then was the estate of those rebelles in the wildernes , & that there is nothing to be expected from christe , by any member thereof , but a powring out of his eternal wrath vpon them . in this peremptory sentence which he denounceth against the church of england he takes on him as if he would seeme to be one of those sevē angelles which having their breastes g●●ded with golden girdles do stand with the vialles of gods wrath in their handes to powre ●ut ●is vengeance on the wicked , but the truth is he is rather in this his doome like one of the angelles of sathan that accuse the brethren condemning those whom god hath iusti●yed : by this sentence he doth at once extinguish & quench the whole light & comfort of the gospell , which teacheth that there is no condemnation to those that are in christe & beleeve in his name , rom 3. 28. and 8. 1. for such beleeves there are many in the church of england holding that doctrine of faith & iustification whereby the faithfull & the saintes in al the reformed churches do hope to ente● into life everlasting , & that whereby the brownistes themselves must be saved if ever they enter into glory : now to denounce the aeternall wrath of christe to those that have true faith , what is it els but to abolish the gospell , to destroy faith & to make it of no effect ? if an angell frō heaven should come & preach vnto vs as delescluse here hath done , yet ought we not to receive him , gal. 1. 8. but here the brownistes obiect that true fayth shewes it self by workes , which ( they say ) are apparantly evill in the church of england . first , their faith sheweth it self by these fruites , by their ioy in the lord , their cōtinuall study & delight in the word of god their cōtinuall invocatiō of the name of god every day , their delight in the sabath , their love of the godly for the truth sake , their vnfeigned sorow for their sinnes , their patiēce for the testimony of christe , & sundry other such like fruites which are the vndoubted & certaine to kens of true saith , ps . 89. 15. ps . 1. 2. ioel. 2. 32. esa . 56. 4. 5. 6. mat. 10. 41. 42. mat. 5. 4. 10. 11. secondly , suppose other of their workes be evill ▪ suppose also that their refusall of separation were a sin , yet seing it cannot be thought other then a sinne of ignorance & that god had not opened their eyes in this matter , what an absurd & wicked thing is it in this estate to pronounce of them all without exception , that there is nothing to be expected from christe by any member thereof , but a powring out of his aeternall wrath vpon them , for who can vnderstand his faults and who is it but that he sinnes of ignorance , and why not in the mysterie of the separation as well as in others , especially it being such a poynt as the members of all other true churches can not comprehend the same ? not with standing such errours the members of the church of england may be vpright with the lord and accepted of him and made partakers of eternall salvation , ps . 19. 13. 1. cor. 13. 9. with 1. cor. 1. 30. ps . 32. 1. 2. but to salve or mitigate this their vnchristian and hard sentence , they tell vs that in such maner of sentences and iudgements they speak respectively , viz. that the faithfull in england cannot be accounted true christians in respect of their ministery , in respect of their constitution , in respect of their estate , being so considered etc. in this exception the brownistes do shew their vanity in seeking out frivolous pretences to colour their rash iudgements ; for first , when as true and ●ound iudgemēt is to be given touching the estate of a christian and an heire of salvation , he is then to be considred not by the halfes or by some such and such respects onely , but wholly and entirely with all his respectes togather . and so a faithfull man considered not apart from his errours and ignorances but considered togather with them and with his faith is yet to be iudged and that absolutely a true christian & an heire of salvation , suppose there besome manifest errours and offences vpon him yet his faith shewing it self in other manifest fruites thereof is a visible cover for all his offences , seing the lord hath manifested in his word that faith alone doth iustify and lay hold on everlasting righteousnes , gal. 2. 16. and 3. 7. eph. 2. 8. and therfore such a one in his outward estate and profession is still a visible christian notwithstanding any other visible iniquities wherein he ignorantly continueth . secondly , when christe at his last comming shall pronounce iudgement , he will not consider men apart frō their constitution , ministery , governement etc. he will not say in such respect i condemne thee and in such respect i do iustify thee and save thee , but he doth absolutely pronounce sentence either of salvation or condemnation , and this iudgement of the lord is generally manifested in his word & according to his word will he iudge at the last day , ioh. 12. 48. mark. 16. 16. and therfore according to this word of the lord the estate of of mē is absolutely to be declared without such respective cōsiderations and exceptions . if the questiō had bene onely about the reproofe of some particular sin in any persō , or about the comparing of one person with an other thē might they have iudged herein respectively ; for the mā that is a true christiā may in some respect be worthily reprehended & may in some respect be vnlike vnto others ; but when the question is about the iudgement of a true christian & about his obteyning of salvation , then are such partiall & respective considerations idle & of no vse : a man is in such case either absolutely to be condemned or absolutely to be iustifyed & acquit . thirdly , according to that respective iudgement , every church yea every person in the world should be condemned & stand vnder the wrath of god , because every church & every person doth erre & commit sin & in that respect being considered apart from christe is accursed , and according to this respective iudment of the brownistes , delesculse in respect of those eleven corruptions which they lay vpon the reformed churches ( supposing they were iustly imputed vnto them ) might in like manner accordingly have pronounced of them all , that there is nothing to be expected from christe , by any member thereof , but a powring out of his eternall wrath vpon them , seing no sin is in it self veniall , al sinnes with out f●●th in him do bring eternall wrath , as well one as an other . and in like maner mr. iohnson holding the same corruptions in the reformed dutch & french churches , might in this respect say of thē all as he * sayth of england , that they stand all subiect to wrath , god imputing this their sinne vnto them . for any one of the least sinnes do make men subiect to wrath god imputing the same vnto them . lastly , mr. iohnson ( as he telleth vs himself ) whensoever he vttred his hard sentence against the church of england did alwayes speak with caution and added some of these clauses , being so considred , in that estate , in that 〈◊〉 . but here delescluse without any caution or clause of consideration shuts them vp all vnder eternall wrath , makes his arrowes drun●ken with the blood of soules , & will needes have them all to drinck the cup of indignation from his hand with no lesse sin & drunkennes of errour then when he had drunken that cup of magis whereof iacob iohnson is sayd to have admonished him , he doth in this place as vainely condemne the faithfull for no sheepe of christe , as he did then commend the same iacob iohnson to be a fit pastour for his sheepe . 20. the second speech of mr. brightman alledged to shew that he doth corruptly teach against the separation is this , viz. that the most mighty king henry had expelled the pope , but reteyned the popish superstition . note here the folly of delescluse , that would prove a separation in one time by the corruptions & superstitions of an other time : as though he should say : in king henries time there were many superstitions , therfore in queene elizabeths time there ought to be a separation notwithstanding all the reformation that was procured by her meanes : what sober man would so argue ? 21. fvrther , whereas delescluse sayth that the pope cannot properly be sayd to be expelled when his doctrine and superstition is retepned , it is a vayne cavill , for first , if he stand so precisely vpon propriety of speech , the pope can not properly be sayd to be expelled , no not then where his doctrine and superstition is expelled ; it is a figurative speech to note the popish doctrine and superstition vnder the name of the pope himself . 2ly , it is yet a true and a fit speech in mr. brightman to say that the pope was expelled when the iurisdiction of the pope and the supremacy formerly annexed vnto his person was denyed and reiected , when he was no longer acknowledged to be the head of that church , when that which was vniustly arrogated vnto the person of the pope was translated vnto the person of the king as it was in king henries dayes : even as the venetians at this day might very fitly be sayd to expell the pope , if they would vtterly deny his supremacy both in civill and ecclesiastcall causes , howsoever they might reteyne many popish superstitions . 2. the third speech of mr. bright man which he bringes against him to prove a separation from the church of england is this , that there is such a forme of church established as is neither cold nor hote , but set in the middes and made of both , etc. these wordes mr. b. vttred in comparing the church of laodicea & england togather , as the type and antitype vnto one an other ; that which he sayth of england he takes frō laodicea which is also declared to be neither hote nor cold , rev. 3. 15. 16. so that by this manner of arguing he might as well prove a separation from the church of laodicea in respect of the lukewarmnes which the holy ghost shewes to have bene found therein . but that it is most erroneous so to reason , christe plainely teacheth vs while he telles vs that this church was still a golden candlestick , that the angell thereof was a starre in his right hand , & that he himself would still sup & communicate with that church ; and therfore so also may the church of england be reputed not with standing the same or the like luke warmnes . 23. vvith this third speech he desires that this which he hath set downe for the fift charge may be ioyned , where mr. b. sayth , that no other cause can be brought of their lukewarmnes , the popish governement mingled with the pure doctrine , then the love of riches and honours . and what can he conclude hence ? vvhat though they were covetous & ambitious given to the love of riches & honors & so became lukewarme ? shall this be a iust cause of separation from the church ? no ; for the scribes & pharisees were also covetous & ambitious , mat. 23. 5. etc. luk. 16. 14. & yet cōmunion with them was lawfull . 24. he desires further that this complaint of lukewarmnes may be compared with that prayse of reformation which mr. br. gives vnto the church of england in the title of his epistle dedicatory : vvel , being compared with the same it may well stand togather with it , for reformed churches may yet have lukewarme ministers & many other greevous corruptions to be complayned of : yea doth not delescluse condemne himself in this matter ? for doth not he also in the title of his booke & in his epistle written to the english readers entitle thē with the name of godly reader and christian reader ? and is there any god ●ine● without reformation ? is there any christian that is not reformed ? vvhy then may not mr. b. call those holy & reformed whom delescluse doth call godly and christian ? 25. he demandes still in the same place & sayth ; is it possible that holynes and vnholynes can raigne togather ? vve answer ; yea , in one & the same church in the divers members thereof , as in the church of the iewes , holynes raygned in christe & his disciples , vnholynes raigned in the scribes and pharisees &c. 26. he yet demandes againe & saith , is there any communion betweene christe and anti-christe ? betweene light and darknes ? betweene idolles and the true god ? can any kingdome , any church , any family , any man submit vnto the governement of anti-christe and not be defiled . vve answer , though christe & anti-christe be enimies , yet the servants of christe may lawfully communicate in that church where many abhominations of anti-christe are to be seene , sor as francis wingrave a brownist doth truely acknowledge , every abhomination of anti-thriste doth not make a church to become anti-christian for the best churches are subiect to errour and some abhominations of anti-christe , were crept into christian churches whiles the apostles lived : and yet communion was lawfull therein . even so the children of light & the children of darknes did communicate togather in christes time : as for idolles if they be no other then set formes of read prayer and such like , which the brownistes call idolles , communion with them is lawfull enough : and for governement though caiaphas was an anti-christian vsurper , yet did many persons lawfully submit vnto his power : thus hath god himself and his prophets , christ and his apostles taught vs both by their word and example and therfore let delescluse heare the prophet esay which he alledgeth , turning vnto him and saying vnto the maynteyners of schisme , wo vnto them that call that communion evill which the lord hath shewed to be good and lawfull . 27. from a fourth speech of mr. br. he reasoneth thus : moreover in his fourth charge where he maketh the state of the poore blinde papistes far better , then the condition of the angell of the church of england , and that also such as are the angelles such becommeth the church for the most part , i do observe that by his owne doctrine the estate of the church of england is worse then babylon it self , which babylon is graunted by all to be that synagogne and church of anti-christe devoted vnto destruction etc. first , he falsmes mr. br. his speech by adding a degree of comparison which mr. bri●ghtm . vsed not in saing that he makes the estate of the poore blinde papistes farr better : it had bene far better for delescluse to have to have omitted that clause , & to have repeated mr. brightmans comparison simply & truely with out such addition ; but it seemes he he favours his owne cause more thē true dealing . secondely , he corrupts & falsifies mr. brightmans speech againe by saying that he makes the estate of the poore blinde papistes far better , then the condition of the angel of the church of england as though mr. brightman had spoken generally and without exception touching the whole ministery of the church of england , whereas even by delescluses owne * former allegation of the wordes , mr. br. speakes of those angelles , who bewitched with ambition and covetousnes do refuse holy reformation , where yet also he leaves out the word onely being a word of restraint vsed by † mr. brightman of purpose to prevent the cavilles of such honest men as this delescluse here shewes him self , mr. brightman sayth that christe in this place preferreth the blinde papistes , onely before those angelles , who bewitched with ambition etc. and thus the double falshood of delescluse appeareth not onely in adding but also in omitting that which was most significant and specially to be considred . thirdly , suppose mr b. had spoken generally of the whole ministery in englād , yet is the observation of delescluse most false & vaine . it would not follow therevpon , that the estate of the church of england is worse then babylon it self as he gathereth ; for even touching those angelles bewitched with ambition and covetousnes , refusing holy reformation , mr b. speakes not simply & absolutely of thē that they are worse then the papistes , but onely in respect of the greater grace & light which they have receyved for their reformation , for so he doth also explane himself in the same place ; mr b. knew well enough that the angelles or ministers of the church of roome ( besides other greater evilles ) are also bewitched with ambition & covetousnes & do therfore refuse holy reformation &c. onely he noted them to be something more excusable in respect of their ignorance because they knew not their maisters will so as those in england doe : we may here fitly tell delescluse in mr. ainsworthes wordes ; he may much abuse any mans words if that which is spoken respectively , he will take and alledge as spoken absolutely . vvhat though the lord do in some respect p●ef●ree ch●●tim & kedar before israel ier. 2. 10. 11. ? may it be observed hence that the estate of israel was simply worse then those heathens , or that israel was to be separated from rather then they ? the papistes are in some respect worse 〈…〉 followes it not hence that they are simply & absolutely worse . 〈…〉 of the ainsworthians that they are worse then the fran●●●scanes in respect of their contention , vnquietnes & disorder , doth it follow hence that he accountes the ainsworthiās to be simply the worse & rather to be separated frō ? nothing lesse . by these examples let delescluse learne to see his solly in ga thering such observations . 28. after this false recitall of mr. br. his wordes togather with his false observation vpon the same he makes this question in the * same place . 〈◊〉 where are then those great prayses of all manner of blessinges vpō that church rehearsed in the second artickle , but cheefely these spirituall blessinges of the word purely and sincerely taught in it . first , for those earthly blessinges whereof mr. b. spake , why might they not be found in that church of england , suppose it had bene every way worse then roome ? how blinde is delescluse that makes this question so far from the purpose ? secondly , as for the spirituall blessinges of the word purely taught , seing mr. br. doth blame but some of the ministers of that church , why may not the word be purely and sincerely taught by others that are free from the blame there spoken of ? 29. a seventh speech which delesc . bringeth from mr. b. against the church of england is this that naughtines raigneth in it , the hand of god is heavy vpon it ; and againe , that in her the lawes of christe are not kept . hence he inferreth ; but what is there then to be done , even this that every soule who hath any care of salvation and of escaping the eternall flames of everlasting damnation be carefull to come out with speed from babylon etc. this conclusion of separation which delescluse here gathereth & denounceth vnder paine of eternall flames of everlasting damnation is vayne , for first all that mr. br. here sayth of england might also most truely be affirmed of that church of the jewes where in christe did communicate for there , 1. naughtines raigned & prevayled in the herods , in the priestes , elders , scribes , pharisees & sadducees &c. mat. 2. 16. and 12. 24. and 14. 9. and 16. 12. 21. 2ly , the hand of god was heavy vpō them in their manifold oppressions & miseries which they endured vnder the government of the romanes & their substitutes , mat. 2. 16. and 3. 10. and 17. 24. etc. luk. 13. 1. and 2. 1. ioh. 11. 48. 3ly , the lawes of christ were not kept there mat. 15. 3. ioh. 15. 20. 22. and now by the sētēce of delescluse , eternall flames of evelasting damnatiō must be the portion of christe & his disciples that cōmunicated with that church , who will not detest such vile cōclusions , which are like vnto arrowes shot even against the breaste of christe iesus himself ? as he that makes himself mad casteth firebrandes , arrowes and mortall thinges prov . 26. 18. so delescluse in this place casting abroad his firebrandes of eternall damnation , shooting his arrowes against heaven , & throwing mortall thinges even vpon the lord of life what doth he els herein but declare himself to be a mad man ? & why might not this his booke which he entitles an ad-vertisement be much more fitly entitled a mad-vertisement . secondly , all that mr. br. affirmeth in this place touching england hath bene affirmed by the brownistes themselves touching one an other : so that delescluse may here see how he hath kindled a fire to burne vp himself & his owne company : for 1. that naughtines raigneth among the ainsworthians it may appeare by the testimony of mr. iohnson who hath oft in publique witnessed of them as of drosse or chaffe which the lord with his fanne would purge out from them , vnder that name of chaffe the the holy ghost doth declare vuto vs the wicked among whom nanghtines raigneth ps . 1. 4. mat. 3. 12. as for the franciscanes ( besides many other greevous thinges ) some of mr. ainsworthes company do testify of them , that probable murder and approved whoredomes are tolerated or maynteyned among them ; delescluse himself is noted for one of the witnesses . 2ly that the hand of god is heavy vpon them appeareth manifestly by the * notable testimony of mr. iohnson himself : 3ly that the lawes of christe are not kept among thē of mr. ainsworthes company mr. iohnson testifyeth touching their governement , & mr. robinson touching the administration of their deacons in that they have no separation of their almes : thus delescluse by his owne maner of reasoning doth enwrap himself and his company in the flames of damnation , yea in eternall flames of everlasting damnation . 30. fvrther delescluse to prove a separation from that church where naughtines raigneth doth alledge that saying of the apostle , he which coupleth himself with an harlot , is one body , 1. cor. 6. 16. but this allegation ( though repeated * againe by hiu as a speciall ground of their separation ) is nothing to the purpose ; the apostle there meaneth that he wich coupleth himself with an harlot by fornication or whoredome , that person defileth himself by his wicked act ; for otherwise it was lawfull for a man to couple himself with an harlot by marying with her , as we see in salmon and rahab , mat. 1. 5. with iosh . 6. 25. the priestes indeed were forbidden , even by mariage to couple them selves with an harlot , lev. 21. 7. 14. that others were so forbidden we reade not . but as for ioyning in communion with a church where naughtines raigned , it was not forbidden , no not to the priestes themselves , from aaron to zacharie we never read or any godly priestes , that did ever separate vpon such a ground a delescluse doth here pretend . 31. vvhereas againe delescluse noteth that as concerning the outward blessinges of peace and prosperity in earthly thinges , by it no church , no man can have any assurance to be in the favour of god etc. this note is idle , neither hath mr b. alledged outward prosperity as a marke of of a true church and delescluse doth abuse mr. b. by insinuating vnto the reader such a matter , for to what end should he els oppose the fame ? in this note delescluse doth so fight as one that beateth the ayre fighting with his owne shadow and so offendeth against the example of the apostle , 1. cor. 9. 26. 32. in the next place to confort his reader against the tediousnes of his short writing he telles vs , that he will now begin to draw to an end concerning his charges &c. and that he will draw the rest into a short summe : but what needed he to do so , if there had bene any soundnes in this his so short a writing ? hath he not already hasted & posted so fast on that he hath forgot his reckoning ? for whereas in the beginning of his booke he hath numbred out ten charges or testimonies of mr. brightman touching the corruptions in the church of england & hath also * promised to declare his minde concerning them , notwithstanding this , forgetting his method propounded at the beginning , forgetting his promise made vnto the reader , as though he could not count ten , so hath he left out one of his number & hath not shewed vs his minde touching the sixt testimony of mr. b. which he alledged at first : thus we see he makes more hast then good speede : could he not runne except he skip with all by leaping quite over the matter which he propounded & promised to handle ? 33. come we now vnto the eighth allegation which he bringeth from mr. br. against the church of england touching some constitutions and ordinances in the same , on this maner ; excellent ordinances indeed ; for which the reformed churches may be ashamed . first of all observe here his ignorance in the mistranslation of these wordes ; for as it is signifyed vnto vs by sundry that have more learning then our selves or this delescluse , these latter wordes of mr. b. prae quibus erubescant reformatae ecclesiae are not to be translated as here they are set downe by delescluse but in a quite contrary sense ; prae quibus signifying not for whith but in comparison whereof the reformed churches may be ashamed , and as these two speeches are quite contrary , if we should first say thus delescluse hath written such thinges for which mr. ainsworth may be ashamed and then againe on th● other side to say , delescluse hath written such thinges in comparison whereof mr. ainsworth might be ashamed , for the first of cheefe speeches doth declare how ill he hath done to make his fellowes ashamed , the second sheweth how well he hath done to shame his fellowes that they can not imitate him , even such difference is there betwixt the speech of mr. b. truely translated , and betwixt the ignorant translation thereof by delescluse in this place . and herewithall is to be noted that as there is an jronie or figurative speech in the fi●st part of mr. b. his testimony , where he speaketh of excellent ordinances , even so also he speakes by the contrary when he telles vs in the latter part thereof , how the reformed churches may blush thereat , as though they had not the like ordinances , but in the translation of delescluse this jroine is not to be found . he telles vs in his epistle how he hath had a hand both in the translating and printing of mr. b. his booke , that so he might be found guilty of all manner of falsification , 1. false printing and glosing as is noted before . sect . 9. 2ly , false allegation as is shewed before sect . 27. 3ly false translation as in this place , 4ly , false interpretation & collections throughout his booke . secondly , what if the reformed churches may be ashamed of the corruptions & 〈◊〉 in the church of england ? will this prove the * speciall thinge intended by delesculse in his writing & in his allegation of mr. br. his speeches ? will this prove that mr. brightman taught corruptly when he sayd that we ought not to separate frō the church of england ? nothing lesse , in the time of christe the jewes had many wicked traditious , ordinances & customes for which the godly might be ashamed , and yet they might not then separate : the churches of ephesus & smyrna might well be ashamed of the manifold corruptions in other of their neighbour churches in asia & yet without separation . vve our selves have often seene such thinges in the brownistes for which all that professe the name of christe might well be ashamed , we have seene their contentions , disorders & conf●sions so great , that even the jewes , the professed enimies of christe being neighbours vnto the brownistes and dwelling hard by them & perceyving their bitter dissensions & divisions have laughed them to scorne & poynted at them with the finger : thus have they bene a scandall and an offence both to th●se with in & without the church : and now therfore according to the reasoning of delesclnse they are for this to be reiected & separated from . 34. delescluse in his amplification of this fore sayd speech makes a large complaint against the reformed churches , shewing that they may be ashamed because they have not dealt so sincerely and plainely with the church of england for reproofe of corruptions in the same , &c ▪ in this complaint observe first , how absurdly delescluse dealeth that being to reprove the dutch & french churches writes against them in english which they can not vnderstand ; why did he not also write against the church of england in french or dutch ? secondly , note here how he breakes his promise : he promised immediately before to be breefe & to bring that which remayned into a short summe ; & yet he is now more large and ample in laying out this testimony of mr. b. then in any of the former . in this dealing it seemes he scarse knew or cared what he sayd or did . thirdly , let the reader know that the reformed churches have plenteonsly testifyed against the corruptions of the church of england contrary to that which delescluse doth here pretend : for a tast hereof to omit other thinges we desire the reader but to looke vpon these three bookes , viz. abridgement of the booke delivered to his maiesty by ministers of lincol . etc. the answer to d. downehams sermon ; the scholasticall discourse against the signe of the crosse , wherein may be seene the pregnant and abundant testimonies of learned men in the reformed churches both against the hierarchy or prelacy and also against the superstitious ceremonies remayning in the church of england , as namely calvine , beza , musculus , bucer , martyr , bullinger , aretius , zanchius , mornaeus , iunius , sadeel , piscator , polanus , vrsinus , virel , viret , grinaeus , bucanus , goulartius , danaeus , olevian , zepperus , lubbertus , bastingius , snecanus , keckerman , with a number more , who as they have testifyed against the corruptions maynteyned by the prelates on the one side , so have they testifyed against the separation & schisme maynteyned by the brownistes and anabaptistes on th' other side : in so much that both they which plead for the prelacy and they which plead for separation do in like manner esteeme and hold the ministers of the reformed churches as their partyes and adversaries , see d. down hams defence , lib. 1. pag. 197. and h. ainsw . counterpoy . pag. 15. 35. a ninth speech of mr. brightman alledged by delescluse is touching the names of the officers of that church , that they were vnknowne vnto the church of christe , except the bishops etc. where vpon delescluse infereth in these wordes : and what is this ? shall then any soule in whom there is but a very small sparkle of the feare of god , be so bold as to dare submit vnder the government and guidance of such vnlawfull ministers and ministery ? yea verily , we see those soules that had very many and great sparkles of the feare of god have submitted themselves vnder the government and guidance of vnlawfull ministers , neither hath delescluse here brought any sound reason to shew the contrary : vve see that in christes time there were divers officers whose names had not bene heard of in the primitive church of the ●ewes , no● ever were instituted by any example of former times in that church , as namely the names of of lawyers , scribes of the people and according to the writing of of the brownistes , the names of archisynagogues , or rulers of the synagogues . secondly , it is evident , the godly may lawfully submit themselves vnto the government & guidance of such private brethren , who in respect of their sects , factions & superstitious observations have had ●uch names as were formerly vnknowne vnto the church of god , who also in respect of their wickedn●s deserved to have their names ●lotted o●t of the register of the saintes , this we see in the communion of the godly with the scribes & pharisees : and therfore if it be lawful for christians to submit themselves vnto the counsayles , admonitions & rebukes of those which for their sin ought to be cast out of the church of god & yet are vniustly reteyned : if a man may stand vnder the guidance and authority of such admonishers , so long as he testifies against their sinnes , then may he also stand vnder the government & guidance of vnlawfull officers : if a man may submit himself vnto one who is vnlawfully a member of the church , why not also vnto him who is vnlawfully a minister of the church ? if a man may submit himself in private vnto the guidance of an vnlawfull brother , then why not also vnto the publique guidance of an vnlawfull officer ? there is more proportion betwixt a member & a minister then betwixt a member & an excommunicate or an heathen , or one that ought to be excommunicate : for example , daniel studly & iean delesculse being both of them deposed from their offices for sin imputed vnto them by the franciscane brownistes , suppose they were still obstinate in the sinnes imputed vnto them deserving excommunication , & yet tolerated vnlawfully , in this estate being not iudged nor cast out by their church their admonitions for sin either in the first or second place were not to be reiected : and if their private admonition might be submitted vnto , why not their publique also if they had not bene deposed ? if in the want of due excommunication the private admonition of an vnlawfull member is of force & to be submitted vnto , then in the want of iust deposition the publique admonition or other workes of governement exercised by vnlawfull ministers is of force & to be submitted vnto : this reason is specially to be considred of those brownistes that mainteyne the popular governement & submit vnto the same . 36. bvt delescluse addes his reason why such vnlawfull ministers are not to be submitted vnto : for sayth he : are they not all thieves and robbers which enter not in by the dore but climbe vp an other way ? and will any man of wisedome commit vnto the protection and and keeping of theeves the least part of his worldly goods ? no , none wilde so vnwise for every one ●ndweth that they will but make a pray of them and spoile and rob them ? and shall any then be so carefull for thinges of so small importance and shall he not care vnto whom he doth commit the guidance of that which is the principall , namely of his soule ? first , we do directly affirme that which delescluse doth so flatly deny ▪ many men of wisedome may & will & ought to commit vnto the protection & keeping of theeves not onely the least part but the greatest part of their worldly goods : for all tyrants a wicked rulers that oppresse & spoyle their subiectes are theeves & robbers , prov. 28. 15. esa . 1. 23. hos . 5. 1. mic. 3. 1. 2. etc. yea these great thieves are in divers respectes more vile then other outpurses or then th●se that rob by the high way side , yet vnto the protection & keeping of these tyrantes men both of wisedome & godlines may & ought to commit both their lives & their goods ; those which teach men not to submit vnto such are guilty of rebellion & treason ; though saul was a tyrant & an oppressour 1. sam. 8. 11. etc. yet was submission vnto him lawfull & necessary , men of wisedome did lawfully commit themselves & their goods vnto his protection . thus the ground of delescluse his argument is taken away . secondly , men of wisedome may & ought also sometimes to commit the guidance of their soules vnto thieves ; for all false stewardes & vnfaithfull ministers that teach not the flock of god but keep back his counsell are indeed theeves also & steale the word of the lord from their neighbours , ier. 23. 30. 1. cor. 4. 1. 2. and such thieves there were many in israel , such were many of the scribes & lawyers in christes time , mat. 23. 13. etc. luk. 11. 52. and yet our saviour requires his servants to submit vnto such , to heare their doctrine , though with this caution to beware of their leaven , mat. 16. 12. men might lawfully receive their sound doctrine , while they discerned that which was erroneous & tooke heed of the same . the scribes in their corrupt and wicked administration or execution of their office were notorious theeves ; & a theevish administration is as bad as a thievis● entrance , & yet we see the ministery of such might be submitted vnto . thirdly , if the ministery of thieves and robbers may not be submitted vnto , then may not the ministery of schismatiques be submitted vnto , for schismatitiques that steale away themselves and others from the cōmunion of of the faith full are in this respect no better then theeves : and therfore by this his owne argument the ministery of delescluse is not to be submitted vnto , because as a schismatique he hath stollen away himself both from the reformed french church of old and againe of late from the franciscane brownistes , who being formerly in his account a true church , how could he so renounce and disclayme their communion without schisme ? 37. yet further he bringes here a ground of scripture oft abused by the brownistes to prove their separation in these wordes : let them alone therfore for as our saviour sayth / they are blinde leaders of the blinde : and both of them shall surely fall into the pit . the letting alone here spokē of by christe is to be vnderstood in respect of the offence which the pharisees tooke vniustly at the wordes of christe that the disciples should not be troubled therewith , as appeareth mat. 15. 12. 14. our saviour by his example did there teach vs to testify against corruptions as he himself there did against the traditions of the pharisees , vers . 3. 7. etc. but as for separation from such guides our saviour sayth nothing , yea that he meant no such thing it appeareth evidently by the communion which he and his apostles did afterwardes still reteyne in that church not separating from the same . and though they were in many thinges blinde leaders , yet not so far as that simply to heare them was vnlawfull , but to follow them blindely with out examining of that which they sayd by the word of god , such heedlesse and vndiscreete hearing and following is forbidden , to heare them as the beraeans heard paul was not vnlawfull . and if blinde guides are to be taken heed of , then we do further appeale vnto the conscience of the indifferent reader whether it were a safer thing to submit vnto the teaching of mr. brightman or of delescluse his censurer , to heare such as m. perkins , mr. greeneham , m. phillips & such like teachers or to commit their soules to the instruction of thomas cocky , ihon hales , francis iesop and such like blinde guides as do leade both mr. ainsworth himself and his whole company , let those that know these two sorts of guides consider duely of the matter . 38. the tenth speech of mr. brightman he setteth downe on this manner , finally the angell of the church of england is both a pexsecuter of the brethren and a deceyver of the prince . vvhence he inferreth with an exclamation , marvelous , and is he still for all this the angell of the church in mr. brightmans iudgement ? in mine doubtlesse he is altogather otherwise , even that angell of the bottomlesse pit , who is a king over those locustes etc. the ministers of the iewish church in christes time were both persecutours of the brethren and deceyvers of the princes and governours , and yet were still the angell of that church . they persecuted christe and sought to murder him , they seduced pilate and brought him against his owne conscience to condemne christe , luk. 23. 23. 24. yet was not separation required , neither yet did the faithfull reiect their comunion . secondly is not the angell of the separation both a persequ●tour of the brethren and a deceyver or the prince ? yes certenly , for the first 〈◊〉 ●hey persequute one an other both in worde and deede : their hard speeches of one other are manifold , they scorne one an other and laugh at one an other . they do also mutually iudge , condemne , and excommunicate one an other : for the second poynt , of deceyving the prince , it is most evident in speciall in their apology dedicated vnto the kings majestie , wherein as much as in them lay , they have sought to draw him vnto errour : this appeareth by mr. iohnsons owne confession and recantation wherein he hath recalled sundry of his errours conteyned in that booke : but the ainsworthians do still persist notwithstanding the admonition given by mr. iohnson : so that by this reason the separatists themselves are to be separated from ; we see hereby how the peece of ordinance wherewith they shoote at others doth recoyle vpon themselves & wound their owne communion . 39. now remaines the conclusion of this writing to be considred , where after the rehersall of mr. brightm . his wordes declaring their wicked and blasphemous errour , who do so fall away from this church as if christe were banished wholly from hence etc ▪ delescluse doth then cry out against him ; and so by this what soever sinnes , errours , wickednesses , abhominatiōs he hath shewed before to be both in the angell and in the church it self , all is now cured by this salve : 〈◊〉 most miserable dawbing with vntempered morter . first , note his false dealing and abuse of mr. br. as though he had sayd or meant that all the sinnes , errours & corruptions of the church of england had bene cured & salved by this his testimony against the separation ; as though he could not have reproved the schisme of the brownistes from the church of england , except he had allowed all the corruptions therein ; whereas on the contrary we have shewed how vainely and senselessely delescluse hath trifeled to prove a separation from the allegations and testimonies of mr brightman above noted : yea even in this very place mr. br. telleth vs in expresse wordes that we may neither take ▪ pleasure in them as some mayntainers of those corrup doe , neither may we forsake and fall from the church as the brownistes doe , he shewes in the same place that he wisheth health of minde vnto both these sorts that are in a contrary extremity : and this his wish shewes that he thought these co●●uptions still to be vncured , & therfore is he most iniuriously charged with the contrary by delescluse . secondly , as for his exclamation of most miserable dawbing with vntem●●●ed morter it is a notable instance of the impudency of the brownistes , who in the middes of their ignorance , do so boldly open a mouth against the learnedest ministers in the churches of god : and much more iustly may it be returned vpon delescluse his owne head , whose consequences & collections for separatiō from mr. br. his speeches are all of them vntempered morter & all his reasoning a most mise●●● dawbing : the iniquity of this his exclamation may easily be seene in this that he doth not refute mr. br. his reasons alledged in this place but passes thē over in silence : mr. br. shewes of laodicea that though the angell thereof was miserable and poore and blinde and naked yet communion was lawfull , christ still supped with the same , he shewes withall that though the like misery be also found in england , as being the antitype of laodicea , yet that there is a presence of christe communicating with them , which he proves further from the experience of the brownistes themselves compared with the scriptures rom. 10. 13. etc. rev. 3. 20. it had bene fitter for del . to have given a sound answer vnto these reasons then with a sound of wordes to have made so lowde an exclamation . thirdly , by the private and publique confession and testimony of delescluse there is a miserable dawbing with vntempred morter among the brownistes themselves , for this del. hath often avouched and affirmed that there is but one sound warrant and example in the scriptures to stay men from anabaptisme , namely the example of the apostate israelites that were not recircumcised when they ioyned againe with iudah in the worship of god , were it not for this example , he sayth that he himself would be rebaptised : if this be true that he sayth , then is both mr. clifton and mr. iohnson a miserable dawber seing they † both have vsed many other arguments and a multitude of scriptures against rebaptisation : if there be but one sound argument , then all the other are vnsound and false , and consequently vntempered morter : now these other reasons being vsed by the franciscanes while he was yet among them , why did he not testify against their vn sound doctrine and convince them of their errour ? how could he endure to see such a number of holy scriptures perverted , falsifyed and abused by mr. ioh. and mr. clift . and yet hold his peace ? how could he suffer them to give so great advantage vnto mr. smith and other anabaptistes by alledging against them so many colourable pretences and shadowes of reason wherein he thought there was no substance ? vvhat sincerity is there in the course of these men that see one an others daubing & yet wink at the same ? vvhy may we not think that delesc . doth now also discerne ād behold some dawbing in mr. ainsw . tho. cocky , ioh. hales and that he winkes at it as he did before in mr. ioh. and mr. clifton ? thus may we here see touching delescluse the onely governing elder of the ainsworthians , that as there is but one step betwixt him and anabaptisme by his owne confession , so is there never a step betwixt him and the path of hypocrisye ; he that sees his fellowes dawbing with vntempered morter and lets them alone in their sin , must needes be a miserable dawber himself , he that professeth himself a separatist from all knowne sinners , and yet sees his fellowes sinning openly in print , by abusing the scriptures in great measure and still continuing in this offence and yet tolerates them herein , how can he be esteemed otherwise then as an apparant hypocrite ? 40. once more he yet renewes his former reasoning and exclaming & sayth vnto vs : can any preach in the office of an angell purely and sincerely who is a theefe and a robber ? shall any administer purely who is not lawfully called therevnto as aaron was ? can any vnlawfull minister administer lawfully the seales of gods covenant vnto dogges and swyne purely and sincerely ? o ceasse to do evill , learne to do good ! god who is iealous etc. for the substance of this obiection it is twise answered before , section 18. & 36. yet for the further stopping of his wide mouth that without cause talketh so much of theeves , robbers , vnlawfull ministers , dogges , swine etc. we do here demand of him , can any preach in the office of an angell purely , and sincerely who is an apostata and hath for saken the most holy fayth as h. a. in the account of all the brownistes hath done ? can any administer purely who for their schisme have bene deposed from their ministery continuing still in their schisme as h. a. and this del. have bene ? can the seales of gods covenant be administred purely & sincerely vnto such as are reiected as dogges & swine , vnto such as william clerke , richard benet , george parker etc. who for their sin & wickednes are excommunicated by mr. iohnson & his company & consequently esteemed as dogges & swine though yet reteyned in communion by mr. ainsworthes company which by this meanes in the iudgement of the brownists themselves is become a stye of swine & one body with excommunicates ? shall those who by the franciscanes are accounted vnworthy to gather vp the crummes vnder their table , become stewards of the house to break the bread vnto the children of the ainsworthians ? shall those that are iudged vnworthy to heare the worde , be allowed for prophets to preach the word ? yet thus it is in thomas cocky and iohn hales , who being by mr. iohnson & his company delivered vnto satan are yet set vp for prophets by mr. ainsworth and his company to draw men from those snares of satan wherein themselves do ly enwrapped . 41. after this he seekes to lay two great sinnes vpon mr. brightman for charging them with blasphemous errour &c. and first , he would shew him to be a persecutour of the brethren & that in these wordes ; for what greater persecution could he put vpon those poore soules which have separated thēselves from those evilles by himself set downe , then to accuse or charge them of blasphemy ? yea it is such a persecution as that it is vnto death , for by the law of god a blasphemer must doe . first , it is no sin of persequution to impute blasphemy vnto those that iustly deserve the same , for luke and paul and iames did charge sundry men with blasphemy and yet were not to be accounted persequutors for the same as may appeare , act. 18. 6. 1. tim. 1. 20. ian. 2. 7. and seing delescluse hath not proved mr. brightmans accusation to be vniust vpon them , he can not iustly charge him with persecution . secondly , suppose mr. br. had bene a persequutor of the brownistes in this speech , yet is he not a persecutour of the brethren so as delescluse chargeth him , & so as mr. br. noted the angell of the church of england to be in persequuting their brethren that do remaine in communion with them , because the brownistes neither in their owne account nor in mr. br. account are brethren , but such as separate from the fellowship of the faithfull brethren . thirdly , suppose mr. b. had bene a persecutour of the brethren , yet not vnto death as delescluse doth write , for the law of god doth not simply and generally require that every blasphemer should dye as this ignorant and inconsiderate person doth affirme by his false application of the sentence of the law vnto mr. brightmans speech : the law requireth that he which curseth his god and blasphemeth the name of the lord shal be put to death lev. 24. 15. 16. but besides this high degree of blasphemy , there were many kindes of blasphemy not punishable with death by the law : every reproch , slander & evill speech either of a mans brother , or any part of gods truth may iustly according to the scriptures be called blasphemy as hath bene signified & shewed ūto vs frō these places , mat. 15. 19. eph. 4. 31. tit. 3. 2. 2. pet. 2. 12. iude , 10. and who will say , that all these sinnes were to be punished with death by the magistrate ? fourthly , suppose mr. b. had persecuted them to the death , yet might there have bene a greater persecution contrary to that which delescluse by his question doth here pretend , in saying , what greater persecution could he put vpon those poore foules etc. for there are divers kindes of death , some are more painefull & shamefull then others & some persons are more to be detested in death then others ; and those that do vniustly lay vpon men the vilest death are greater persequutours then some others that yet put men to death also : and in speciall many of the brownistes are greater persequutours of vs then delescluse dare yet for shame pretend against mr. b. for divers of them blush not to say that we have sinned against the holy ghoste , that no place of repentance is left vnto vs and all this for testifying against their schisme : now blasphemy against the holy ghost being greater then other blasphemy , matt. 12. 31. luk. 12. 10. it may hence appeare that they are greater persequutours of vs , then mr. br. is of them , seing in their blinde and rash moode they charge vs with greater blasphemy , then mr. br. doth them . lalstly , if imputation of blasphemy be persequution vnto death , then are the brownistes themselves deadly persequutours of one an other : for to omit manifold other proofes hereof , they do mutually testify of one an other as of false churches : mr. iohnson & his company say of mr. ainsworth & his company that they are a schisme and no true church : againe mr. ainsw . & his people do reiect mr. iohnsons company , yea divers of the ainsworthians do affirme of the franciscanes , that they are worse then the worlde : if some other● should thus speake of them , they would account them vncircumcised ph●●●nes , rayling on the host of the living god , * blaspheming the name of the lord & his tabernackle &c. and thus to bring the collection of delescluse vpon his owne pate , we may say vnto him according to his owne reason , who be greater persequutours of the brownistes then they themselves are mutually vnto one an other ? do they not seek one an others blood in making one an other blasphemers ? the saying of † zophar the naamathite is verifyed vpon them : the bow of steele striketh them through , the arrow is drawen out & cometh forth of the body & shineth of their gall : the gall of their owne persecution , the arrow of their owne obiection woundeth their owne sides & is coloured with their blood , so that here we may also apply vnto delesc . that which mr. ainsworth once * wrote against mr. smith , how delescluse is snared in the worke of his owne handes & in his owne obiections , is worthy to be noted with † higgaion selah , & meditated to the praise of god. 42. the second sin which he layeth vpon mr. b. is this to be a deceyver of the prince , which he notes in this particular for writing against them : and how he hath also deceyved the princes , he and others of his minde by causing them to banish and keep in banishment their most loyall and faithfull subiectes . for deceyving the prince which he obiecteth , let him know that though mr. brightman had more particularly pleaded against them and for their banishment also , yet had he bene no deceyver therein , let delescluse prove this his consequence . as touching the causes of their banishment , it is cheefely to be layd vpon those that have bene the * hee goates of the separation : these by their deceitfull reasons & perswasions have mislead & seduced many simple persons and have sought out reasons of banishment and misery vnto many by leading them vnto schisme : let those that are yet alive bewaile their offence herein . thirdly , seing the brownistes themselves do now mutually abandon one an others company why do they blame others for doing such thinges as themselves do practise ? their reiection of one an other is now more grevous then banishment , whiles they banish one an other from the pledges & seales of gods covenant ▪ yea the church of england shewes more favour and kindenes vnto the brownistes thē the francis●anes & the ainsworthians do vnto one an other , whiles they do both reiect those that are present at the worship or ministery of th' other , & do also refuse many of them to eate one with an other : do they not now by their owne example teach the magistrates & princes vnder which they live to reiect & banish them also ? fourthly , whereas the francis●anes do now professe that at may next they purpose to remoove their habitation & to go & dwell at embden , divers of the ainsworthians do affirme that they have so behaved themselves in the place where they now dwell that they are ashamed to tary there any longer , & therfore that it is time for them to remove and to be gone thence : if these thinges be so then is it not the deceit of mr. br. & others of his minde to procure their banishment as delescluse obiecteth , but it is the shame of their owne wicked conversation that doth banish the brownistes & drive them from one place to an other . fiftly , to make it plaine & evident what minde the brownistes have to banish one an other , let vs here consider what the ainsworthians have * written against the franciscanes & given vnto those arbiters appoynted by the magistrates for the hearing of their strife about their meeting house : a way of peace by these themselves propounded and by the church of leyden and vs agreed to , these after reversed and stood not vnto vnlesse we would goe dwell out of the city : and although in the treatie of the agreement , it was testifyed by the elders of that church , that vnlesse it were to the apparant vndoing of vs and of our families , we should not be dismissed againe to dwell here : yet because we would not absolutely promise to leave this citie , they would not stand to the agreement which themselves had made . besides the accusation of falshood , & covenant-breaking here noted , observe also the cruelty of the franciscanes in seeking to banish the ainsworthians & to have them out of the citie ( as they complaine ) though it were to the apparant vndoing of them and their families : is not this a mercilesse kinde of banishment that is sought by them ? do they not herein take one another by the throate with their vnpitifull handes ? may we not here see the truth of the wise mans saving ; * a poore man if he oppresse the poore is like a raging raine that leaveth no foode ? yea the raging oppression of the brownistes tendes to their apparant overthrow & vndoing even by their owne confession . and therfore as delescluse throughout his advertisement doth draw his collections from mr. br. his wordes against the church of england , even so may we 〈◊〉 better reason condemne the brownistes out of their 〈…〉 thus may we shoote with the brownistes in thie● owne bow , & wound them with their owne arrowes . lastly , besides the degrees & kindes of banishment above noted , we do here demand of the brownistes both of the franciscanes & ainsworthians , what they would doe if they had a magistrate according to their mindes , such an one as they have often wished for ; would they not then banish one an other persisting in those courses which they do now condemne mutually in one an other ? 〈◊〉 them answer vs plainely & sincerly vnto this question & then doubt we not , but even thereby also further to stop the mouth of delescluse that is here so vn●●●ly opened with complaint against mr. brightman . 43. having thus set downe the sinnes of mr. b. he comes in the next place to set downe the vertues of his owne schismaticall flocke , in these wordes ; and indeed although i am but a stranger vnto them and one of an other people , yet the truth caused me to speak thus in their behalf , that i know not any people at this day vnder the sunne more loyall and faithfull vnto their prince and country , and more zelous and religious towards god , then they are : first , being about to sound the trūpet of their praise , for defence of his modesty he telles vs that he is but a stranger vnto them and one of an other people ; but this is not enough to excuse his flattery & boasting , for though he be a stranger vnto thē as he is a french man , yet as he is a brownist & a schismatique he is one of them , & therfore notwithstanding his different nation may be as partiall in praising of them as any other of thē & above many of them , in that he is an elder , a governour & a prophet among them : it had bene much more for their credit if some other of their neighbours had praised them , but this they want being esteemed both of the magistrates & ministers of the reformed churches to be a contentious sect ; and therfore while delescluse being incorporate into their schisme doth thus extoll his frendes & brethren , it may iustly be sayd vnto him : * he that praiseth his frendes with a loude voyce rising early in the morning it shal be counted to him as a curse . secondly , for the length of his comparison , in that he sayth , he knowes no people vnder the sunne more loyall etc. how vaine & foolish is this ? though he know none in the east or west indies more loyall then these , this is nothing to their praise because he knowes not those nations at all , nor many other far nearer which are yet all vnder the sunne : and thus this large comparison is nothing els but the lowde noyse of an idle commendation . thirdly , for their commendable loyalty and faithfulnes vnto their prince and 〈◊〉 , how doth it appeare ? by what good token or argument can be demonstrate the 〈◊〉 ? yea the contrary rather might be shewed by divers instances of sundry of them who have deceyved and 〈◊〉 both the prince of 〈◊〉 owne country of his right & the governours of these countries wherein they now live of their due also , insomuch that some being taken in their deceit & in their presumptuous transgression of the lawes have smarted for the same : and where then is their singular loyalty & faithfulnes ? fourthly , for their zeale of religion where is it ? doth it not vanish into the smoke of contention ? yea is it not confessed by many of them , that they neither feele in themselves nor see in others that zeale & comfort thereof which they felt & saw before their separation ? for this also we could alledge sundry witnesses of themselves besides our owne knowledge . 44. bvt he proceedes yet further to amplify his commendations & prayses of the zeale and religion in the brownistes which as he sayth are seene in them and among them both privately and publiquely : yea in such measure as that i am fully perswaded that they are and shal be if they continue faithfull vnto the end , that people by which chiefely antichriste the man of sin shal be rooted out . behold here the proude conceit that the brownistes have of thēselves without all reason , it is much that such fantasies should enter into the head of delescluse , it is more that they should be rooted therein with such full perswasion as he speakes of , it is yet more that he should not be ashamed to vtter , yea & in print to publish this his arrogant opinion , but most of all that his fellowes & his brethren should allow or tolerate in him this strange dreame or vision of vanitye : for whereas the lord in his holy word hath noted vnto vs those honourable instruments by whom cheefely antichriste is to be overthrowne , we desire delescluse to shew vnto vs where the brownistes are numbred among them : vve see in the booke of the revelation that as the lord in sundry visions hath there declared vnto vs the speciall instruments whereby antichriste was to be exalted , so hath he also in other visions there described vnto vs those worthies and blessed instrumentes by whom cheefely he is againe to be cast downe : by the consent of the best ād learnedest interpreters there are noted out vnto vs in the apocalyps divers estates both ecclesiasticall & civill that have wounded antichriste , but no interpreter that ever yet could finde the brownistes among them : vve read of divers angelles fighting against antichriste , rev. 14. 6. 7. 8. 9. and these do fitly declare vnto vs such as iohn wickleffe , iohn husse , hierome of prage , martin luther & such like , but where be the angelles that may fiftly represent vnto vs robert browne , h. barow , francis iohnson etc. vve reade of divers that have obteyned sundry victories , conquestes and triumphes against antichriste . rev. 11. 15. 16. and 14. 14. 17. and 16. 1. and 17. 16. for the further vnderstanding whereof we desire the reader to consider & weigh mr. brightmans exposition of those places ; but where is the lot and roome of the brownistes ? vvere is their atchievement registred among these cheefe instruments of the lord ? secondly , whereas he telles vs that this his full perswasion dependes vpon a condition viz. if they continue faithfull vnto the end , whereas also mr. iohnson & his followers doe now in the account of delescluse slide back from their ancient faith & are already proved vnfaithfull , mr. robinison also halting betwixt them in some thinges , these thinges duely considred the full perswasiō of delescluse may quickly turne into a faint perswasion and his vaine confidence into a wan-hope . 45. the reason of his glorious perswasion touching the brownistes he setteth downe in these wordes : for by that purity of doctrine which they do teach and by the sincere and publique administration of the glorious kingdome of christe publiquely and before all the people ; as also by professing that glorious liberty in the gospell , that if any sin be shewed or manifested vnto them by the word of god , is amended whatsoever opposition may be to the contrary , by those thinges i say by them professed practised and taught , it is imposible that where they have place , antichriste can or have any doore to come in . first , for their purity of doctrine , they have no groundes of pure doctrine which other churches of christ round about them have not as well as they , vvhy do they exalt themselves in that which others have as well as they and before them ? other churches have this doctrine also in better and more abundant maner then they ; for h. a. i. delescluse , thomas cocky , iohn hales and such like prophets do not teach the pure doctrine with half that purity , grace , power & fruite that the ministers of other churches doe . besides their ignorance , their doctrine is divers wayes impure & mixt with sundry errours , new doctrines & faithes leading vnto schisme & confusion & is therfore in part recanted by mr. iohnson . for their glorious liberty in their publique administration the anabaptists may boast thereof as much as they , seing the anabaptistes are as publique in their administration as the brownistes and the brownistes are but followers of them therein as they are also in the most or all those thinges , wherein they differ from vs. for their sincere administration thereof against all opposition whatsoever as he boasteth , how vaine is it ? before the schisme of the ainsworthians from the franciscanes , the sinnes and * scandalles of daniel studly were shewed and manifested by divers of the ainsworthians & yet such opposition was made against them as that da. studly did neither soundly repent nor loose his office from which he is now deposed : that which the popular governement could not then effect , is now effected since that governement was changed by mr. iohnson . vvhereas he sayth that anti-christe cannot have any doore to come in , where those thinges by them professed and practised have any place , it is also false : for suppose the doctrine and discipline of the brownistes were both of them pure , even as pure as in the apostles times yet might antichriste finde a doore to come in by , as well as he did in the time of the apostles , where there were better meanes to keep him out , then the brownistes now have , see 1. ioh. 2. 18. 2. thess . 2. 7. suppose the romish antichriste have no dore to come in by among the ainsworthians , yet while they open a doore to the anabaptistes to come in amōg them , what avayleth it ? that such a doore is opened by them see the testimony of the * franciscanes , who charge mr. ainsworth and his company with this evill . 46. moreover he addeth further in praise of the brownistes : and for my part i do blesse the day in which i had that grace from my god to know both the people and their faithfull walking in their wayes and religion of god. if a stranger meete with this booke of delescluse he may be divers wayes deceyved by him in this deceitfull speech : for if he know not that the brownistes are broken and rent in the middes falling one from an other , then by this false report of delesc . he may be drawne to think that the brownistes do faithfully cleave vnto one an other and walke constantly in their wayes without schisming from one an other , which is most vntrue . and further againe if a stranger do know that they are rent a sunder , and yet withall know not of what side delescluse is , then shall the stranger be left in vncertainty not knowing whether he meane the franciscanes or ainsworthians to be that faithfull people , hereafter therfore let delescluse learne to speak more plainely and to avoyd his deceitfull speeches ; for ought that he hath here written he might be taken for a franciscane and so his faction might loose that praise of faithfullnes which he intendeth for them . 47. drawing to an end he seales vp his booke with this prayer for the brownistes ; i beseech the lord of his grace even with teares that he vouchsafe to open the eyes of their most noble and wise prince that he may see the iustice and equity of their cause and cavse them to see his royall face and presence againe with ioy and gladnes of heart vnder his dominions and iurisdictions , amen . in this prayer or forme of prayer , observe first how he dishonours the lord and takes his name in vayne by praying for the manifestation of the iustice and equity of their cause which is so full of iniustice and iniquitye : as saul took the name of god in vayne by his blessing the ziphims for their shew of compassion which indeed was cruelty 1. sam. 23. 21. so doth delescluse by blessing of the brownistes for the equity of their cause which is indeed a meere iniquity . secondly , mark here his vaine publishing of his owne devotion & zeale , viz. his praying with teares , yet is it no sound commendation of himself while his teares are spent in such a cause : delescluse may remember since he was a papist that many of those idolatours in their superstitious devotion do often times weepe & powre forth their teares before their idolles & images : as those teares can not iustify their devotion , no more can these teares powred forth by delescluse for the idoll of their separation iustify his devotion . thirdly , mark his flattery of the king calling him their most noble and wise prince : it is the property of true nobility to try the spirits of men by the scripture , as the beraeans did act. 17. 11. if therfore he be noble and most noble they will not deny but that he hath examined their spirits & the scriptures alledged by them & presented vnto his maiesty in their petitions ; & then withall if he be most wise how is it that he can not see the mysterie of their separation having their cheefe reasons & proofes layd open before him ? yea by the sentence of this delesc . there is nothing to be * expected by him from christe but the powring out of his aeternall wrath vpon him , nothing as touching his visible estate but aeternall flames of everlasting damnation , if this be his abiect & base estate , how is he most noble or most wise . fourthly , we do here demand of delescluse touching this his prayer , whether it be lawfull for any of his flock in the reading of his booke & withall of this his prayer therein to lift vp their hearts vnto the lord , to desire the same thing & to say amen with him vnto this his petition : if they may not , then is it a sory prayer which may not be assented vnto by an other , & then is he a sory guide to go before his flock in such desires as it is not lawfull for them to folow him ; but if they may pray the same thing with him & in the reading of his wordes may say amen vnto his wish , then consider on th' other side how according to the doctrine of the brownistes , he makes himself guilty of idolatry , for they tell vs that read prayer and set formes of prayer are idolles & the vse of them idolatry , mr. ain●worth in speciall hath compared them to the golden calves that ie●oboam erected , & if this be so then hath delescluse here in the end of his booke set vp a golden calfe by setting downe this forme of prayer & then all the brownistes that in the reading thereof do lift vp their hearts in prayer to desire the same thing , all these ( we say ) do then bow downe vnto his calfe & worship the same and so commit idolatry . 48. hasting to a finall conclusion he sayth ; and so ●do here end though many more thinges might be sayd touching separation from evill , and adioyning or following that which is good : mark here how he paynts the face of his separation , in calling it a separation from evill etc. whereas indeed it is a separation from that which is good because of some evill mixed therewith ▪ & a reiection of the godly for the wicked sake which is a thing most wicked , gen. 18. 25. here he will end but it had bene better for him not to have begun : he telles vs many more thinges might be sayd touching separation , we tell him also that many more thinges may be sayd against the same : the iudicious reader may easily discerne that in all these arrowes which he hath shot he hath still missed the marke , his bow of brasse is broken & all his vaine reasoninges against mr. bright ▪ are turned vpon his owne head : if he have more thinges to say hereafter let him see that they be of more weight then these . 49. last of all he addeth : and in deed in a word we shall not read from the beginning of the world to this day that there was ever any true church of god truely established but by separation : and therfore this people not to be blasphemers but true worshippers of god. behold here a heape of falshood couched vp togather in a few wordes for a farewell to his reader : for first , it is false which he sayth of establishing churches by separation from the beginning of the world : let him shew how the church of god before the flood was established by such a separation as the brownistes have in their writinges described vnto vs : we have here his bare word onely which is of no credit , his asseveration here vsed by him , viz. in deed in a word is but a word without deed & without truth . secondly , it is false which he sayth of establishing true churches by separation vnto this day : and this not onely in respect of the church of england which by mr. iohnsons confession is a true church though not established by the separation of the b●ownistes , but also in respect of the dutch & french churches which by the brownistes them selves are acknow●ledged for true churches & yet were not establis●hed by the separation in question : yea they do reiect & condemne the separation of the brownistes as schisme : do these churches then practise and reteyne a separation without their knowledge , against their willes & contrary to their doctrine ? or if they do thus maintaine a separation not being aware thereof , shall this vnwitting & vnwilling separation be a true ground & foundation of their church ? shall their ignorant practise establish them & iustify their estate ? we would faine know of delescluse how these thinges can stand sound . thirdly , suppose this assertion of his touching separation were true , yet his inference therevpon is false , in that he sayth and therfore this people not to be blasphemers : though a man hold separation yet may he be a blasphemer in many other respectes : for example , mr. smith holding the separation of the brownistes was yet a blasphemer for that which he wrote against the vse of the translated & originall scriptures in the worship of god. and so mr. ihonson still holding the separation is yet by the ainsworthians accounted a blasphemer , one that speakes evill of the way of god , in respect of his new interpretation of mat. 18. delescluse reasons here as though there was no blasphemy but against separation , how blindely & partially let the reader iudge . fourthly , he bringes yet an other false inference from the former assertion , in saying , & therfore this people not to be blasphemers but true worshippers of god : for the former assertion touching separation is mainteyned by anabaptistes yea & by some of the arrians , doth it herevpon follow that they are true worshippers of god ? nothing lesse : yet such is the fruit of delescluse his reasoning ▪ further whereas the brownistes do acknowledge the dutch & french churches to be a separate people & true churches established by separation & yet condemne the read prayer vsed by them as being a false and idolatrous worship , it may hence appeare evidently that his argument for proofe of their true worship is very vaine and false : he may here see that the truth of gods worship doth not depend vpon separation . prov. 12. 15. the vvay of a foole is right in his ovvne eyes : but he that heareth counsell is vvise . errata . pag. 3. l. 31. reade thinges . pag. 6. l. 18. and to convert them from going 〈◊〉 , p. 7. li. 15. dealing . pag. 11. l. 15. therfore . p. 13. l. 5. affirmation . p. 18. l. 15. for . pag. 19. in the margent read , ●ev . chap. 3. p. 19. l. 39. preferre pag. 25. l. 39. knoweth p. 28. l. 26. corruptions . pag. ●0 . l. 17. for . pag. 35. l. 34. fuly . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a01099-e460 * epist . to read. pag. 3. * ps . 43. 1. 2 3. 4. esa . 1. 10. ma● . 26. ●7 act. 3. 1. * ps . 119. ● 128. 1. tim. 5. ●1 . * advertisemēt pag. 5 pag. 8. 9. answ . 1. * r. clift . answ . to mr. sm. 154. 155. h. ains . counterp . pag. 7. 8. 2. ●dvertis . ●ig . 9. ●nsw . 2. 3. answ . 1. 2. * answ . to to mr. ber. pag. 187. parallel . pag. 61. 3. answ . 2. 3. advertis . ●ag . 9. answ . ob. answ . ● . 2. except . ans . to mr. iac. pag. 7. 8. answ . 1. 2. 3. answ . to mr. iac. pag. 7. 8. 4. advertis . pag. 5. & ● answ . ●●vertis . ●5 . & 10. ●●sw . ●nsw . answ . to mr. stone , pag. 2. advert●s . pag. 10. ●●●w . 1 2 * ●dvertis . ●●g . 5. † see lati●●●e edition ●f mr. b. ●●n kev. cha 〈◊〉 . vers . 15. ●ag . 106. 3. 〈…〉 * adverti●● pag. 10. answ . 1. 2. adver●● . pag. 11. answ . 1. 2. expos . of ●●at . 18. ●●pist . ●dvertis . ●ag . 14. advertis . pag. ●1 . * advert pag. 3. & ●… advertis● p. 6. & 1●… answ . 1● 2. ●dvertis . ●●pist . p. 3. ●dvertis . ●●g . 12. answ . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3. advertis . p. 7. & 12 ▪ 13. answ . 1. 2. advertis . pag. 13. answ . 1. 2. 3 advertis pag. 13. ●nsw . 1. 2. 3. advertis . 〈◊〉 . 7. & 13 ●●sw . 1. 2. advertis . pag. 13. 14 answ . 1. 2. 3. plea for ●●fa●ts , p. 〈◊〉 49. etc. ●●rief treat . ●●●gt anaba . 〈◊〉 . 16. etc. adverti●… . pag. 1● . answ . advertis . pag. 14. answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. see 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 . iob. 20. 2● 25. ans . to m● sm. pa. 4● psal . 9. 1● advertis . pag. 14. answ . 1. 2. rob. bro●ne . h. barow . fran. iohnsō h. ainsworth iohn smith iohn robinsō &c. 3. 4. 5. ●ee profa●● eschisme ●f brown. ●ag . 81. prov. 28. 3 6. advertis . pag. 14. answ . 1. pro. 27. 1. 2. 3. 4. ●●vertis . 14. ●●sw . 1. 2. advertis . pag. 15. answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. ●●nting 〈◊〉 fox , 〈◊〉 . 1. 6. 7. ●rofane ●●hisme of ●●ownist . ●ag . 80. advertis . 〈◊〉 15. answ . 1. 2. advertis . pag. 15. answ . 1. 2. 3. advertis . pa. 9. & 11 4. advertis . pa. 15. answ . advertis . pag. 15. answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. a christian reprofe against contention wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the church against such slanderes and reproches which sabine staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. the second is his preface and postscript befor and behind mr. answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by mr. robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his church, which now mr. staresmore hath published to the world. to these things an answer is giuen by a.t. a. t., fl. 1631. 1631 approx. 109 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 24 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a13299 stc 23605 estc s103240 99838997 99838997 3390 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a13299) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 3390) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1222:09) a christian reprofe against contention wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the church against such slanderes and reproches which sabine staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. the second is his preface and postscript befor and behind mr. answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by mr. robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his church, which now mr. staresmore hath published to the world. to these things an answer is giuen by a.t. a. t., fl. 1631. thatcher, anthony, attributed name. [4], 43, [1] p. successors of g. thorpe], [amsterdam : imprinted in the yeare m.dc.xxxi. [1631] a.t. = anthony thatcher?--stc. place of publication and printer from stc. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the 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nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng staresmore, sabine -early works to 1800. brownists -early works to 1800. 2003-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-11 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-12 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-12 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a christian reprofe against contention wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the church against such slanderes and reproches which sabine staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes , the first being 16. questions , called a louing tender . the second is his preface and postscript befor and behind mr. answorths last sermon , and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token , hee breatheth out his malice against vs : and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by mr. robinson , and sent to vs with the consent of his church , which now mr. staresmore hath published to the world . to these things an answer is giuen by a. t. 〈◊〉 us the foxes , the little foxes which destroy the vines , for our vines haue smale grapes . songes 2. 15. how long halt yee betweene two opinions ▪ if the lord bee god , follow him : but if baals bee hee , then go after him . 1. kings 18. 21. he that is first in his owne cause , is just : then commeth his neighbor , and maketh inquirie of him . prou. 18. 17. imprinted in the yeare m. dc . xxxi . to the christian reader . christian reader , i giue thee to vnderstand : wee haue not been forward to publish to the world these our co●…trouersies , and this thou maist take knowledge of , because the first of these our opposites books , hath been in print so many yeares , being printed in the yeare 1623 ▪ being 16. questions of their owne forming , in the which wee haue great wronge done vnto vs ; yet haue wee patiently borne both that , and also that which they have printed the last yeare against vs , vntell such time wee heard by many witnesses , that our long silence hath turned to the hinderance of the trueth , and also our owne discredit : for diners haue been perswaded through our long silence , that wee are most in fault , or else wee would haue answered before this time ▪ therfore for the trueth sake , & our owne defence , we though it need full to sett o●… this christian reprofe vnto these our opposites , in the which thou maist see the great injury , they doe vnto the trueth and also vnto vs , by their vnjust imputations and slanderes , which they haue layd vpon vs : and althought for our selues wee could haue born these injuries in silence : yet for the trueth sake , and that none that haue a loue vnto the trueth , should be hindered or stomble thereat , therefore needfull it is that they should bee informed of the trueth of things as they are , in these our troubles , which by this short answer , thou mayst take knowledge of . and although it consisteth of cōtrouersy , which it not so profitable , as some more heauenly meditations are : yet not withstanding the lord doth suffer such things to arise , for the approuing of such as are faithfull : 1. cor. 11. 18. 19 & that the people of god should not ly vpon the b●…d of security : songes the 5. 5. but keepe their christian watch , knowing that satan seeketh too surprise vs by many meanes & wayes ▪ 1. peter 5. 8. act. 20. 31. for when he can not retaine vs , in the broad wayes of the world ; then will he send out the s●…oods of his persecutions , to see if hee can swallow vs vp in it , reu. 12. 15. but when hee is restrained frō his purpose by the lord , then will hee seek to ouerthrow vs by his ministers whom hee seduceth , euen in the church of god , & so turne thē into shape , as if they were the ministers of righteousnesse , 2. cor. 15. act. 20. 29. 30. and of these things , gentle reader , haue wee had our portion , diuers of vs hauing been persecuted by inprisonment , and many till death did insue , & others banneshed , & some loosing their right & inheiritāce , and must leaue it and be exsiled : yet these troubles are not so dangerous , nor yet so greuious vnto a sincere conscience , as seducers which a●…se in the true church : and many that haue gone through persecutions , yet haue been ouertaken by seducers , & drawne away frō the true way of god ; yet this is no new thing as thou mayst see by those scripturs before alledged : and as it was with the churches of god of old , so is it at this present time with vs , for wee hauing gone through many persecutions , so haue wee had our part of trialls by decliners & seducers : and these our opposites hath greatly troubled vs with their errour , some they hath corrupted their with , & others they haue so incumbered their mindes , that they dayly trouble vs with contention : and to bring their porposes about , they came most lords dayes , diuers years & troubled vs with great desturbance , many haue been the prouocations , which they haue vsed towards vs to prouoke vs : so that wee may truely say , that as paule had fought with beast at ephesus , so haue wee at amsterdam , fought with men of a beast-like conditiō , 1. cor. 15. 32. & although i could say mor in these things , yet for the present i spare , to see if the lord will worke vpō their hearts by this christian reprofe , which if it take not effect , but that they goe on to striue against the trueth , the lord can giue a fit opportunity that their deedes may be fully layd open , cōcerning these things in question . and now christian reader , take thou heed , that thou stomble not at these things to forsake the trueth , for these things ought not to bee strange vnto thee , seeing the apostells of christ hath fortolde of these things , act. 20. 29. 30. 2. pet. 2. 1. 2. 3. yea & themselues were troubled with such trialles , whilles they were with the churches , actes 15. 2. gal. 2. 4. 5. and som preaching christ through enuie & strife , supposing to adde more affliction too the apostells bandes , phil. 1. 16. and hath not the apostell told vs , that in these last dayes shall come perillous times , and that all sortes of sinnes shall abound ? 2. tim. 3. 1. 2. 3. which should teach vs to bee more watchfull , and to judge wisly of things , and not too bee offended at the trueth , or any part thereof ; for it is the trueth that maketh vs free , iohn 8. 31. 32. & yet when the lord of glory was vpon the earth , which taught the trueth more excellent then euer did any , yet his owne disciples went backe , & walked no more with him , stombling at his heauenly doctrine : seeing it is thus , that our corrupt nature is so soone caried a syde : how should wee desier of god , to haue the spirit of discerning , & of sincerity to walke in the trueth ; & wheras wee haue been euill spoken of , too be cōtentious , and of fierry spirits , with many such like reproches : but what is the cause that wee are thus reproched ? is it not because wee withstand errour and sinne : and suerly , although wee are weake men , yet hearin wee follow the examples of the prophetes of god. was not moyses the meekest man vpon the earth ▪ yet was hee stored vp many times to great anger , because of the sinnes of the people : and who is more redy to carpe at the zeale of gods people , then louse persons , or lucke warme christians , which are redy to say as ahab , 2. cron. 18. 7. that when the word of god is spoken for their reprofe , they thinke it is neuer well spoken to them , well for mens esteem wee passe not vpon it : but i turn my speech to such as are faithfull : if they haue the loue of the trueth , and if they haue a desier too keepe the lords watch in his house , then i say to such as iehu sayd too iehonadab 2. kings 10. 15. ●…f their hartes bee vpright to the lord , & to vs as ours is vnto them , then let them no●… stagger at these troubles : but come and helpe vs in our heauenly iourney : for great are the hinderances by our corrupt flesh and this world , and satan hee vseth both these to insnare vs. but for such as are corrupt , and vnder a pretence of peace , and lowlines of minde , col. 2. 18. will either broch errour or plead for sinne ; vnto such i say with dauid , psalm 119. 115. which saith : depart from mee yee eu●…ll doers , for i will keep the commandements of my god. and this i speake not of singularity , but because i find that our corrupt nature hath not need of helpers into sinne : for wee are subject of our selues to run into sinne dayly . and now christian reader , for as much as the diuell hath in these our dayes reuiued a new his ancient course , teaching of men to abuse the name of god , in 〈◊〉 vpon them to make a couenant in their antichristian estat , which is contrary to the word of god , and is a meanes , not only to insnar themselues , but also to draye , and insnare the people of god , which are escaped out of their bounds : but concerning this poinc●… , i refer thee to the 16. 17. 18. pages of this booke : and now that which i haue written , i commit it to thy judgment , in the which i pray thee bee not partiall , but read with consideration , and then with moyses to say to him that doeth the wrong : why smi●…est thou thy fellow . exodus 2. 13. a christian reprofe against contention . mr . staesm : in the beginning of his booke settet downe as a cause of the publishing of mr. answorth sarmon : to be a loue token of remembrance to his brethren to in kindle theire affections to prayer that scandalles of many yeares continuance may be remoued that are bares to keepe many godly wise & judicious from vs , wherby wee might growe to further perfection againe . answer . that all the people of god ought to pray both for the prosperitie of the trueth and for the remouing of scandalles , that none may be hindered from the true walking in the trueth , it is their dutye so to doe . but is not mr. s. the chiefe man which is the cause of the scandell nowe in question between vs , who all though wee did bear with him in his errour , and no doubte would so haue done vntill this day , and allwayes hee resting in peace yet was hee so bussie & vnrestty that hee is the chiefe man that hath brought this scandall or offence , therefore i aduertise him to remembare the saying of our lord iesus , woe be to the world because of offences , for it must needes be that offences shall come , but woe to be two the man by whome they come ; and as mr. s. hath begone the offence : so hee is the these man that may in part by the acknowledging of his sinne heale the breach , and so helpe to take away the offences which if god vouchsafe to give unto him , i shall be glad and i hope all the people of the lord also : mr. s. instructeth vs how to remoue scandall , and in thè meane time hee runeth one sweftly two intrease the scandall by publishing of his vnjust writings hee telleth vs that the setting out of mr. answorths sarmon is his loue taken : but is this so in deed why then hath hee placed such a swet flower betweene such bitter and poysoned earbes , placeing before it his vntrue preface , and be hind it his stoffing postscript wher by hee abuseth the word of the lord , and belyeth his neybours as afterwards i shall shewe god willing : if this be the euent of mr. s. loue . what maye wee thinke will the event of his hattred be : but may 〈◊〉 not be justly feared such fruit as this that hee tocke an occasion to set out mr. answorths sarmon , that so with it hee might send abroad his vnproffitable writings , and that hee might get the better sale which alone of them selfe would haue , but littel esteeme ; but let not mr. s. pretend loue in this : for loue 1. cor. 13. thinketh not euill : but hee in this hath done euill : loue rejoyceth in the trueth . but hee strifeth in errour and contention , therfore let mr. s. feare that hee is guiltye of this scripture , prou. 26. 18. 19. 21. which saith : as a mad man casteth fire brandes arrowes & death , so is the man that dece●…ueth his neighbour , and saith am not i in sport , so hee speaketh of loue , but hee casteth vntruethes scandalles , and reproches and errour . m. staes . in the beginning of his preface showeth from the 1. sam. 7. 2. how that the people of god lamented after the lord , and as hee saith , the same affectione mee thinkes i perceive in many of you : to the which i answere , it ought not only to be the affectione of many : but of all : gods people to lament the want of the lords holy ordinances , and wheras hee speaketh of divers inconvenices for the want of the ministery , alas who will not grant it , and more then hee speaketh of , but wheras hee saith ; being divers times hurried & ●…orne . with the loud out cryes and hard handling of furious and vnmercifull spirits . these things will fall vpon the head of mr. s. himselfe : but first i answer : that wee are but weake mene and do sin in our best actions , how much more in the handling of the matteres of controversie , in the which there is allwayes opposition , yea all though the cause be never so just . and especially such subtill opposeres as mr. s. and such as are with him be , and not only subtill , b●…t violent and vnresty and labouring daily to corrupte others who should others wayes thinke . but that in these troubles in many things wee have sinned , i speake it to godes glory and our owne shame ▪ although the chiefe matter in countrouersy must ly vpon the head of mr. s. wher it is due with all the euill euentes that doth follow hee being the cause of it . but vnto his clamours , i answer , although wee bee weake & subject to fayle , yet it followeth not therfore that his clamours are true : for what be the outcryes by the which hee or any are torn with all , i hope in countrouersy men must be answered , and if sinne be committed it ought to be blamed , but haue wee done as hee hath done , not only with his tong and pene to send letters , but also in print to send abroad his injurious writings by the which hee slandereth his neighbours , and not only once , but the second time as for example his 16. questions set out the yeare ▪ 1623. would not any man that readeth them thinke that they are our grounds that hee hath sett out by the way of question , whereas in deed they are his owne framing as they may fite his owne turne beste , yea some altogether false as question the 5. and others the like may not one of them are so sett downe as that wee will approue of it : therfore as mr. s. hath done euill in making such questions , so hath the answerer , or made his answer according as his mind was declined : and as mr. s. hath done vs injurie in them , so hath hee now as i shall shewe , if wee had thus done vnto him then hee might have complained of outcryes . but hee is like a quarrelling man which layeth hard strokes vpon his neighbours , & with all crieth out that hee hath the injury : & if hee be so bold as to sett out in print such vntruethes against vs : what may wee thinke hee hath done in secret with his tong and pene wher wee cannot come to know it : a few words is convenient more to be spoken concerning his 16. questions , hee saith in his epistle that hee was much prouoked latly to further it by some amongst vs , i am doubtfull of it , although hee saith that diuers can witnesse it because i know how vnresty hee is , and how smale an occasion hee will take to be provoked vnto his end lesse strife , nay was it not rather that hee toke an occasion both then & now to sett his printery a worke , for in deed if hee goeth one as hee doth begin hee may make great vollomes to idle contention : but i hope a christian answer may satisfie a descret reader & to keepe to the mayne things that are different betweene vs , but if any did provoke mr. s. i hope they did not provoke him to sett downe 〈◊〉 nor yet to pervert our reasons by his owne formings . hee saith these questions & answers were severall times tendered to our sight which wee would not vouchsafe to regard : to the which i answer neither doe wee regard them now , but doe retourne them to the former of them to whome they are due , & desire him as reason requireth that hee will giue his leaue to frame our owne groundes , as wee haue just occasions : and for our not receiving in to publique these questions & answers , by the answer allredye geven wherin is shewed how vntrue they are , are sufficiente , not to receive them , & also wee had experiance of his troublesomnes before : and should such things be read to the congregation moreouer it was signified that if they came with repentance wee were redy to hear it , and to receiue them with gladnes , but to read his forged writings in the church wee have no warrant in the word of god , nor any example nor costome : and whereas hee saith : in these to our vnderstanding are comprehended the marrowe & substance of the things in difference betweene vs arising , both from that letter writ to london , the cause of our misery and other actions and dealinges occasioned from the same . to the which i answer first hee himselfe granteth . them to be collected and composed questions in that hee saith : in these to our vnderstanding are comprehended , which as hee saith , did arise both from the letter and other actions and dealinges occasioned : answer . but doth not our opposites knowne : that the 〈◊〉 placeing of words or the lacking of a word : or the adding of a word may change the sence , & too whome made hee these questiōs , was is not to one that was corrupted with the same errour that he held euen as dipt as himselfe , and should wee not expect a good resolution : neither will the marrowe and substance of the differences betweene vs , appeare by such questions and answers , for som questions which hee gathereth , are amisshapen and wanteth that that should be with it , and some are false and it is no marveile : for hee saith they arise from actiōs and dealings occasioned : and who knoweth not that by such compositions wee may be very much wronged and so wee are in deed . but wher hee calleth our letter the cause of our misery . to the which i answer his errour and his vnrestynes in his errour is the cause of our misery in all these troubles in questions , and for the letter although it is infearme as it is by man composed , yet is it a worke of god by his people against errour & sinne , being the manifesting of our iudgment confermed by the word of god against that samaritanest couenant : being there vnto called : and haue not wee the scriptures plantyfull for our warrant , having the prophetes and apostels for our example , it being appart of our spirituall warfare against since and seed of the serp●…nte to witnesse against such counterfait couenant as the prophet saith : osea . 10. 4. they have spoken words swearing falsly in making a covenant : and as iohn saith , reu. 2. 10. i know the blasphemy of them which say they are iewes and are not , but are the synagogue or satan : and have wee not also an example in a such like cause as this in the church of ephesus which was commanded by the holy ghost reu. 2. 2. for examining of them which saith they was apostells , and are not : and hast found them liares . and should wee be blamed for examining of them as say they are visible christians , and haue made a true covenant when in deed they are found to be liares and this man : who is the chiefe cause of this our misery hath bin found falty in this respect long ago in london for hee went to mr. lee , and his people and desired of them communion signifying to them that hee vvas as they ware : being in the same covenant , & so got into theire communion : but vvhen they came to heare that mr. s. had deceiued them : ther vvas a meeting appointed betvvene mr. lee and his people , & mr. iacobe and his people , at the vvhich mr. sta. himselfe vvas presente and three other men vvhich aftervvards 〈◊〉 members of our church vvhich testified vnto vs , hovv things vvas caried : so being come together , mr. iacobe their manifested as the truth vvas that they never intented separation from the church of england : appearing to mr. s. i for vvitnesse saying their sittes mr. s. 〈◊〉 him gainsay it if hee can : to the vvhich speech , hee had not one vvord to gainsay : yet after this hee coming over to vs hee caried himselfe in the like manner tovvards vs , and vvee being ignorante hovv things did stand and hee concealing the truth , hee had almost dravvne our teacher to yeld to lett him communicate . but vvhen these 3. brethren had given in their testimony hovv things did stand , then our teacher saith : that them it vvas to be considered other vvayes , & no doubt if the lord had continued his life hee vvould haue discouered that couenant in question , and yet for all this did this man continue in his vntrue speaking a long time after this saying that they vvere the most part separated , and vvhen hee vvas asked , vvhy hee did not then excepte against mr. iacobe vvhen hee appealled to him for vvitnesse : and being observed that your silence vvas a consent as in such causes it is offtentimes : to the vvhich hee ansvvered that it did not follovv , that because hee ansvvered not , that therfore it vvas so : and yet behold besides m. iacobes testimony vvee sence haue other vvitnesse of 〈◊〉 men , vvhich vvas at the couenant making , that none of them 〈◊〉 separated , and this is vnder ther ovvne hands ratified : and in one o●… their testimonies vvhich vvas don by their eldere hee is blamed 〈◊〉 as follovveth : vvhosoeuer shall say that they vvere separated , may vvel take shame vnto themselues , yea though it should bee m. s. himselfe , and vnto this vvriting is the hands of . three more vvhich testifye that all of them vvent to hearing in the church of england after the couenant making to ther knovvledge : and novv seing that these things are so in the vvhich this man hath gone beyond himselfe in the speciall ground from vvhence all these our troubles did arise , hovv should hee feare himselfe even in his errour , and to take heed hovv hee goeth one in his procedings least the lord leaue him vnto hardnes of harte , and to blindnes of eyes , as a just recompence for striuen against the truth : or to lay a snar in mizpach , to insnare the soules of men , or to doe as balaam did , which taught balac to put a stumbling blocke before the children of israell , which this man hath done , and doth in the maintaining of that samaritanesh couenant , as through the helpe of the lord , i shall proue in due time : and none to retourne to mr. s. preface againe hee calleth vs vnmercyfull spirits , vvho vnder pretence of godly zeale , and hatred against sinne vngodly massacre the true and living members of christ body . first i answer that if i should follow him in all his clamours and insinuations , & also his taking vp of mens weaknesse let fall in reasoning , and dispute which hee vseth to hide his ovvne faultes and transgressions : then i say vvee might haue vvorke enough to doe , and increase vnprofitable writtings . but let him knovv that all men of vvisdome vvill thinke it apo●…re shifte to helpe himselfe with mens sinnes , or infirmityes to couer his ovvne sinnes , & so to auoide the maine matter in difference therfore fit it is : seing hee would not rest in his errour in peace : that novv hee should . both justifie his errour and his vnrestynes in his errour , which vvas the cause of his casting out or else to fall vnder it : and to retourne with repentance , but seing hee hath vvritten vntru●… ths i shall make a briefe ansvver vnto them : but first vvher hee saith vvee are furious & vnmercifull , vvith other reprochfull termes before named : hee should haue stayed himselfe in these things vntill such time as hee had made good his cause in question , for vvho is not just in ther ovvne cause in their conceite which be in contention as hee is , and therfore the euill of his reproches , and all the hinderances vnto the truth , which hee speaketh of must lye vpon himselfe , except hee could make his errour truth and his vnrestynes , with seeking to se●… to be good and lavvful , which i knovv is more then hee is abell to doe . and for his quoting of scriptures hovv largly and fitly might they all be applyed vpon himselfe as 1. thess. 4. 1. might be applyed to him to show his busines before hee came to vs , and vvhill hee vvas vvith vs : and since hee vvas cast out being a raiser vp of contention so breaking those scriptures galat. ●… . 15. and 1. cor. 11. 16. also for rom. 16. 17. hovv euidently doth that scripture reproue his factious action , for the vvhich hee vvas cast out . but i leaue the manifesting of it vnto his propre place . and for the other whom hee saith are thrust out of the church : vvhich vvitnesse for them i hope all men of vnderstanding may consider , that men that haue euill causes for the most part they lack not some partaker to assist them : and for them vvere they not as forvvard as any to cast out these tvvo opposites , yea more forvvard then many , and i am suer more forward then my selfe , and vvhat hath chāged theire mindes they say the meeting of the brethren aftervvards to be spoken of vvhich i may say is lese then affige leaue to couer there shame : and therefore may it not bee well feared that respects haue stollen awaye ther affectiō seing theire reason of change is of so little vvaight : and for this i can show reasons , but at this time i spare ; because that some although justly touched : yet vvould bee to much moued , and although i could say more yet i stay here , knovving that such things doth , but tend to vaine ●…anglinge . but this man hath administred the cause to speake this . and wheras hee saith vvee reject the vvord of god & all vvholsome counsell for our amendement countrary to the very letter of the 38. article , and why did hee not shevv vvherin also : was it not because hee might doubt of the truth of his affirmation and suer , if it be layd vpon him for an vntruth , i see 〈◊〉 hovv hee can shifte it for our article speaketh of the communion that all churches haue for counsell , and helpe in all needfull things in the common faith , and this did wee practise in that our letter to the church at london , in the vvhich this man did so much oppose vs , and hath made all this troubell , and also vvee practise that article as wee haue just occasion : but doth hee meane wee breake this article because wee doe not at his pleasure his will or the willes of such as h●… stoureth vp to bring other churches , to bee judges whether hee bee rightly cast out or not , if all that are cast out should haue that righte as i know not why hee should haue more right then others : then t●… churchs should haue worke enough to doe to looke to others businesses & to neglect their owne . but wee must learne to put a differance betweene that which concearneth the common faith , and the proper power that euery seuerall church hath in it selfe : as for example in reu. 2. and 3. chap. euery particular church hath theire commandation or reprofe as they deserved : and as the church of pergamus was reproued for suffering of such as taught the doctrine of balaam , so needed they not to aske another church whether they should restraine them that so taught or , vvhether they should cast them out if they vvould not be restrained , or vvhen they had cast out anie to call for other churches to knovv vvhether they had done vvel or not in so doing , especially to such churches as vvere corrupted vvith the same errour , and hear obserue : that vvhen vvee did follovv our article in the sending our letter to the church at london at theire request , then wee did euill as hee accounts , because it was against his errour . but novv vvee must follovv him although against reason , and bring our povver in to bondage or else hee vvill tell vs , vvee reject the vvord of god , and doe contrary to our ovvne article , hee telleth vs of our teachers speech vpon his deathbed concerning christian moderation , suerly , the best of vs doth , come to shorte of it often times , but vvhy did hee himselfe so soone forget it , seing hee vvas so vnresty in his errour : for hee vvas theire , and heard his vvords . but they vvhom hee aymeth at to my best remembrance vvas not their : vpon vvhom hee taketh this occasion , to speake things not conuenient , and to bring in another mans speech vvhich helpeth not him in his matter to make it good or euill : neither will vvismen think it wisdome in him , to set out mens infirmities to the vvorld thinking therby to couer his owne : and for the causles troubles contrary to the lavv and gospell , which hee speaketh of that is to be proued by him , or they that can : vvhen vvee come to the pointe . hee saith , the church of leyden hath plainly proued it too vs. i knovv not that they haue proue any such thing . but one thing i know that they take things for granted that are not so : as for example mr. s. saith that wee doe contrary to the letter of the 8. position in our apologie , wher hee would make others beleeve that his sinnes in question are , but matters of suspected euills , and not euills in deed , vvherin hee shall sind himselfe greatly deceiued when hee cometh to the triall therof : and wher hee saith certain discontented brethren made a meeting to change that solemne agreemēt of the church , the elder consenting and acting with them . answer : how can this man cleare himselfe from a willfull vntrueth in this thing , seing their were diuers brethren their and all vvitnesse except one man , that they did nothing , but desired the elder that in the writing of the letter that hee should be carefull to keepe to the true meaning and minde of the church : in that their sentence and the reason why they did so desir him vvas because as they told the elder that some of those fevv contrary minded brethren did pervert the churches meaning alredy : and that one which indeuoured to seeke and make matter about this meeting , yet in the publique when the thing was in question hee confessed and sayd , that their vvas nothing done or concluded by the brethren . now this man being one that was present , and also being very willing to condemne the brethren , if he could haue don it , yet hee thus confessing , and all the brethren testifying as before is sayd , and denieth mr. s. accusation , and mr. s. hath bin told of these things although hee hath thus written : and doth hee not know , that if a thing bee denyed by on man , in any acte done that hee is accused of that one i say cannot be condemned , but by the mouth of tvvo constant witnesses : how then is this man guiltles which vvould condemne many , and yet not hauing one constant witnesse : & for that which hee saith the elder bringing the letter was blamed for writing contrary to the churches joint agreement , and his owne promise would not hee make the reader beleeve that the church blamed the elder ; because their agreement was altered an that therfore the letter was tourned backe again : but vvas it not hee that blamed the elder , and the other three brethren that stod with him , for their vvas no more at that time that i can remember : but for the church they knew their ovvne minde and excepted of it as their owne minde to condemne the couenant . but because m. s. and another were produced for witnesse , and hee refused it and sayd the other vvould not do it neither : therfor was it willed the elder to put that thing out : and this was the tourning back of the letter . but hovv collerable doth hee sett it dovvne to make it fayer for his porpose : much like the diuells ancient oracle vvhich might 〈◊〉 tourned tvvo vvayes , for hee telleth the reader , it was blamed , but hee telleth not by whome it was blamed , hee saith it vvas tourned backe : but hee telleth not vvherfore the church tourned it backe : & wher hee saith , that the elder vvas vvilled to writ the first peacable agreement : it may be hee might so plead or so speake , but that the church did so , it is not true : but as befor it hath bin signified , and why doth hee thus : is it not because hee would haue the reader to vnderstand it vvas because his errour vvas condemned which in deed vvas not so : and i am persuaded hee dares not say otherwayes although hee hath thus written . but their is one thing more to be spoken of : which is that hee and some with him , would bear vs downe : that the church did not condemne the couenant at the first , but left it vnjudged : to this i answer divers things briefly , & first i suppose that hee knoweth , that vpon his clamours and some vvith him that then the sentence of the church was called , vvhich gaue their sentence : that they condemned the couenant the first daye : 2. his ovvne friends vvhich as hee sayd witnessed for him : they i say tourning their mindes about towards mr. s. they made 6. or 7. vveekes contention , saying that the churches sentence vvas altered , and vvhy , sayd they , because the word false was added in the letter : therefore sayd they the church condemned the couenant sufficiently by other words . but the vvord false was auoyded for offence sake : thus it went on 6. or 7. weekes till the letter was looked into , and then it vvas found that the word false was not their . but to the thing in hād this is the testimony of his owne friends , but that which wee say or his ovvne friends haue sayd is nothing with him for hee will goe one needlesly to endlesse contention , 3. needlesse i say , for if it had bin as hee sayeth that the church had not condemned the couenant the first day , because they vvould not offend those few brethren : if then those few brethren , made an euill vs of it : i hope the church had power to condemne it , afterwards for their owne preseruation both of their membres , and of the trueth : and who compelled the church to consent : vvas it not because it was their ovvne minde to condemne the couenant . but had the church don as hee saith in that thing : then i say had hee done as the prophet saith to lay a snar in mizpha . 4. lett not him thinke that this samaritanest couenant should haue that priviledge which circoncision had which was the lords seale of old to be laid downe in honnour , yet when it was abused , the apostell left the vse thereof , and vvould not giue place for one hower : but is it a thing lickly that when the elder brought the letter to reade it , being but a weeke betweene that none of the church could minde that the sentence vvas altered , but hee & them fevv vvith him for hee knovvs their is freedom of exception to ●…ll , but one thing more is to be obserued concerning the difference betvveene the dealing of this men , and those brethren vvhom hee accuseth in that meeting , for vvhen his matter vvas in the publique hee refused to debat the matter , but vvould haue it tourned to priuate , but those brethren whom hee accuseth , did not only lay dovvn vvhat they did in that their meeting , but offered themselfes to the triall of all that if any could shevv it to be otherwayes they should do it : and not only once , but divers times vvas this in question and allwayes they offering themselfes to triall . and vvhereas hee speaketh of a thing yet worse , for either the elder alone or these priuy counsellers vvith him , stod not to this secōd agreement the church made , but vvrote another with alteration , addition , and diminishing : besides the churches knowledge and consent , and sent it for the churchs minde and act . answer first , vvher hee speaketh of the second agreement , i knovv but one agreement , tvvise spoken of , and the occasion is manifested before , tvvo if the alteration which hee speaketh of , had bin by him sett dovvne : then it may be it would appeare to be , but that vvhich hee had commission from the church to doe , as he himselfe granteth in some thing , but vvheras hee speaketh of adding and diminishing , these things are yet to proue , for i knovv not of any such thing : neither any man that i knovv of did see the letter or gaue any counsell concerning it , after it cam from the publique , but the elder himselfe . but vvheras hee saith that they were cast out vpon a very suspicion that a fevv of them met to writ to contradict the churches action . answer , i can not but marueil at him , that hee should thus ran into this vntruth to say that it vvas but suspicion , did not hee himselfe confesse , yea of himselfe manifest , both to the elder , and also to others before it came to the church besides some that heard the letter reade , and i hope hee dares not deny . but that hee did grante in the publique in the generall , that his letter was the apposing of the letter of the church , although hee would not in the particulars debat the matters . and after hee vvas cast out hee sayd , vvhat did hee , but take avvay the erronist grounds vvhich mr. delaycluce vvrit in the letter : and therfore he thinking his errour is a trueth , it may be hee thinketh so to deceiue the reader , so likevvise hee calleth the laying dovvne of the matter in the church the false information of the elder , and that tvvo of them vvere singled out , and selected from the rest . first i ansvver , vvhat doth hee call the false information of the elder , i hope hee knoweth that both himselfe , & to other vvith him did manifeste to the elder themselses that they had vvritten in opposition to the church , and so consequently contrary to that trueth , vvhich the church maintained in the letter : vvas it not this that the elder informed the church of , hee also saith that tvvo vvere singled out from the rest , in vvhich hee vvould giue the reader to vnderstand , as if all that those tvvo had got to their meeting , vvere at the first knowne vvheras in deed it vvas othervvayes : for although it was knovvne that they had a meeting to that porpose , yet euery particular person vvas not then knowne , but those tvvo opposites made knowne themselses to the elder of the church pretending to him as if they vvould submit it to correction : the elder refused to meddle vvith it himselfe , but told them that it parteined to the church ; they consented to haue it come to the church , but vvhen it vvas propounded and laid downe their , then they refused to answer or to debat the matter , nor yet to deliuer vp the letter : and the reason that they pretended vvas , because the elder in the laying dovvne of the matter sayd that that vvhich they had done vvas a thing of an euill nott , and vvas this a sufficient reason to refuse to debat the matter : vvhat i●… the elder had done like moses numb . 32. ●…4 . or like the messenger of the church , iosua 22. 18. or like ely 1. sam. 1. 14. all these vvere directly charged vvith heauy charges and they vvere cleare , yet did they christi●…lik debat their matters , & cleared themselues , but these opposites ●…ere , but touched & presently they kiked , and so fullfilled the common prouerb that agalled horse backe is soon harte : but they ought rather to haue approued themselse or to haue submitted themselues to the meanes to come out of their sinne , as dauid saith psalm ▪ 141. 5. let the righteous smite mee , it shall be a kindnes : and let him reproue mee , it shall be an excellent oyle which shall not breake my head . wher was their pretended committing it to correction when vpon so little occasion they refused triall in the ●…ght place where it should be tried . and for that speech which hee saith the informer speake that it might be holy , just & good : for ought hee knew , this was a speech spoken to prouoque him to ansvver ●…hilles they were a reasoning together . and the best of vs may escape words some times in reasoning that will not stand : yet is not this man the clearer for all that . but wher hee saith that the matter was follovved by interrogatories to finde out sinne . answer : sinne was found when his vnrestynes in his errour was found , and this being novv manifested , and layd dovvn to the church , wee needed not make much cerching to find the sinne , but rather to vse the best meanes wee could to draw them out of their sinne which then did appeare : and hovv could this be done , but their must be questiōs or demandes , or as hee termeth them interrogatories , and a little after hee calleth them intraping demandes , but hee must not shifte the thing so , for did not hee alltogether refuse to debat the matter in the publique , saying they were not according to the rull matth. 18. dealt with all , therfore they refused to debat the matter in the publique , and hee knoweth vvell , that when any is asked a question , that is not meet or reasonable they may , and doe refuse to ansvver , and so might hee have done if hee could haue shevved vnlawfull questions , but in that hee did refuse alltogether to answer or to debat , the matter therin was their sinne of opposing of gouernment , and hovv contrary vvere they in this to the seruants of god of old : numb . 32. 14. 15. 16. iosua 22. 21. who although they were charged with heauy charges and had not sinned , yet they ansvvered and cleared themselues . but these although they had sinned , yet they refused to debat or to ansvver , and neglected the meanes to come out of their sinne : and for his saying it vvas contrary to matth. 18. i refer the reader to the ansvver of his postscript . hee saith that they were cast out without knowledge of sinnes , & also that they protested solemnly they had neither don the thing so suspected nor intended it . ansvver , i still except against his word suspected , for the thing was plainly layd vpon them : for although at the first it was caried vvith a●…low and safte vvords , saying that it vvas a thing of an euill nott , and that they ought to answer euen to apparences of euill in such publique matters of the church as this was , and seing they did run vnto such an action , they ought to answer , and to that end vvas iosua 22. and 1. thes. 5. 22. brought the one shewing that christians ought to keepe themselues from apparances of euill : the other scripture shewing that if a christian doth any thing that seemeth contrary to the law of god , they ought to cleare themselues , and to this was added actes 11. wh●… petter cleared himselfe , but all this could not persuad them to ansvver and to debat the matter , so when they still refused : their sinne was condemned by ephes. 4. 3. 4. and 1. cor. 3. 3. and other scriptures , and by these scriptures was their factious or vnlawfull meeting condemned as their refusall too ansvver vvas condemned , as befor is shewed : so then sinne was knowne before they vvere cast out : but what is that vvhich hee protested they had neither done nor intended it befor i haue shewed hovv they opposed the church in the trueth , in that their vnlavvfull meeting , to the vvhich i ad this : they that maintaine an errour doe sinne reu. 2. 14. they that seduce to errour doth sinne vers . 20. they that sequester apart of the church against the church , the church maintaining the trueth doth sinne rom. 1●… . 17. and all this did they in that meeting , therfore when wee knew of their meeting to conferme that letter : vvee knew that all this vvas by them committed : but it may be hee will excepte , and say that the thing vvas not so layd downe to them at the first as now i doe , that is true , but were not they the cause of that that it was not , seing they refused to debat , the matter or to answer as i haue shewed therefore the sinne was condemned in the generalls , as i shewed before . but hovv shall wee vnderstand his protestation concerning his intendement , it may bee hee did not intend any euill , & why because hee minded it to be good , & for the trueth : but wee meddle not with his intendement , but with his action . petter though hee intended good when hee parsuaded the lord iesus not to suffer at ierusalem . but therin hee was an instrument of satan to ouerthrow the saluation of all gods electe , if satan could haue preuailed by him , and as petter good intend could not beare him out , seeing his deed was euill , yea although it was his ignorance , so will not his good intend helpe him , seing his deed vvas euill : hee goeth one vvith many clamours after his manner , to the which i haue giuen some ansvver before . but where hee chargeth vs vvith partiallity for spearing of scandallous euills least our euill combination , should be weakned discouered or broken . answer , if all that ●…ich this man saith were true , it might make vs appeare euill in the eyes of men : to the which end hee settes it out : that hee might coller his owne euills , but wee must minde it to be the fruites of his loue , and his loue token thus to do , for hee hath told vs in the beginning of his booke that therefore hee hath sett out mr. answorths sermon . but would hee haue done mr. answorth that injury , but vpon this occasion hee might also power out his malice against vs : but to the thing in hand , i considered in my selfe what hee did meane by those scandalous euills , but i could not minde what hee aimed at , so i asked m. s. vvhat hee did meane by these scandallous sinnes hee speake of in his booke , but hee shifted mee of and would not tell mee ; now what dealing is this that a man vvill sett out to the world such reproches , and refuse to manifest them to one that might vse meanes to helpe them , if their bee any : but let honnest men judge of this his doings . hee saith further that irregular proceedings haue made our brethren in all places to hange downe their heads , and hee saith wee haue bin plainly certified from sundry churches . ansvver that wee haue bin so certified from sundry churches , i know no such thing . but it is his manner if on man let a word fall , hee will apply it to all , as see the answer to his postscript : now true it is , that one church which receiued him to them by his samaritanesh couenant , they in deed do take his part or else they must condemne themselues , but for any more i knovv not any : but if it were so , it would not make him cleare in his matter ; therfore let him leaue these clamours , and stand to the cause in differance , that ●…o hee may either approue himselfe or fall vnder it . and wheras hee saith now for these , and the like offences diuers that were of vs turn the backe vpon vs , and betake themselues to liue at large , as if now the dore of indifferency or libertinisme were sett open , that it matters not whome they heare or wher they walke . the covenant examined . answer . but can hee spy the liuing at large of diuers that haue receiued the ●…rueth which novv haue declined , and can hee finde no other occasion vvhich they take for their stumbling , but those things which hee speaketh of : for those vvhich hee hath set down , i refere the reader to the answer giuen , but i can nam some friend of his , who hath rathe●… opened the dore of indifferances wherby many hath taken occasion to decline . but first i say to him , is not hee the man himselfe , which hath made a pathe way for such libertins in the maintaining of that coue nant of desemblation in the which hee vvould bring light and darknes in to one habitation , in that hee vvould make vs beleeue that antichristians neuer leauing their antichristian estat , are sit matter for to make a true couenant with god , and that they can make a true couenant , and so become visible christians , & not only so , but also daily practise their pretended couenant and keepe their communion in their antichristian assemblies vvhose in deed they are , if these be not the right samaritanes in their practise then let the indifferant judge : but hovv contrary is this vnto the scriptures , matth. 3. 6. 2. cor. 6. 14. 17. 18. re●… . 18. 4. which showeth vnto vs : that god doth receiue vs into communion vpon this condition , to come out , and to separat from the false vvayes of the vvorld and least our corrupt flesh should put differant , and so take an occasion to continue in any one false vvay more then another , therefore saith the holy ghost , and touch no vncleane thing and i will receiue you , and i vvill be a father vnto you , and yee shall be my sones and daughters , saith the lord almighty . if the lord hath made this condition , as it is cleare hee hath , who should not feare to plead the contrary or so to practise : moreouer did not they that were baptized confesse their sinnes . matth. 3. 6. and vvas not baptisme to them in the true church are newing of their couenant in christ then come , and they that were not in the true church before did they not enter into a couenant with god in christ , vvhen they were baptized , and was it not don vnto all vpon the confession of their sinnes ? how comes it to passe then that these men before named beeing vnseparated , and vvalking in their publique sinnes should be pleaded for to be sufficient couenant makers , & that they haue made a true couenant with god , let not any thinke that this distinction will helpe them in this cause to say that they walke in the trueth , so far as they see or vnderstand : suerly this is a very crooked , and a vneuen measur to measure our obedience vnto our creatour . but should the commandements of the blessed god bee limited , and bounded vnto the blind vnderstanding of sinfull man , or as if the spirit of god had not lefte sufficient derection vnto vs , either hovv far or with whome to walke in such publique matters of religion , in the which these antichristian idolaters haue lesse to say for themselues then those their predecessors which were before them exodus 32. which when they made the calfe they had not the lords order or direction , for the lords ●…ublique worship as yet giuen vnto them : and therefor they ran into that greuious sin : moyses staying long away as verse the 1. showeth : but the lord hath not only giuen plaine order , and rulles in his vvord to these men : but also hath raised many faithfull witnesses , both by voice , and also by bookes to shovv the wayes of god , and to declare their sinne vvhich they neglect , & also reject : but to come too this man vvho prepareth this pathe way in the maintaining of this couenant , hovv easie is it for sattan to preuaile with any being possessed vvith this errour whether they be in the false church then their to vvalke in this way of dessemblation , and thinke to blesse themselues as naaman did 2. kings 5. 17. with two mules load of earth thinking to serue the lord in the land of sirian , and that hee needed not to trouble himselfe to go to ierusalem : but this being contrary to the commandemēt of god , deut. 12. 13. 14. and the prophet seeing it : and also his soddan and confused motions vvhich allthough hee professed not to sacrifices to any other god saue only to the lord. but yet hee proposed and professed to bow down in the house of rimmon his masters god , and for that hee vvould aske pardon befor hee did it : now i say the prophet seeing his sodden , and confused motion bid him go in peace , that is so much as say , far yee well : as if the prophet saw it not fit to resolue his doubtes , nor to direct him to go to ierusalem where the true place of vvorship vvas : and are not these couenantmakers much like vnto him , who in their confused motions or considerations , thinke they need not to leaue or forsake their antichristian estat . but their to remaine , & thinke to blesse themselues by a sequestered meeting from their brethren the antichristians on part of the day , and to communicat with them the other part of the day : but do these men thinke that by sequestering themselues from their brethren to change their cōdition . oh no , for as the prophet showeth haggi 2. 14. that if a polluted person touch any hollowed thing , he is so far from making himselfe cleane therby , that hee maketh the holy thing vncleane , and so not acceptable : whervpon it vvill follovv that their priuat gathering together , and taking to themselues the ordinances of god is so far from sanctifying of them , that they polut the holy things of god , whilles they stād in 〈◊〉 antichristian estat : or doe they thinke they are the nearer to the lord by vsing of vvords to make a couenant , they remaining in their antichristian estat , no allthough they do it with great zeale and oath , yet it helpeth them not , as the prophet saith , hosea 10. 4. they haue spoken vvords swering falsly in making a couenant : neither lett them thinke , that it is a lowable for them to sett vp a ministery in that estat : for as it was sayd vnto their predecessor esra . 4. 3. it is not for you , but for vs to build the house vnto our god : and if the lord did so detest the old babylon vvhich was , but the tipe of this antichristian babylon that their should not be a ston taken , ierem. 51. 26. neither for corner nor for foundation , vvho should not be afeard to mannag the stones of this spirituall babylone , to bee ●…it matter for the lords house . but hovv doe these men blesse themselues some thing like vnto michah iudges 17. 13. who being in his idolatry sayd , i knovv that the lord will be good vnto mee , seeing i haue a leuit to my preist . so these men standing in their antichristian estat , thinke themselues vvell now , seeing they haue imitated the order of the church of god in their priuat meetings . but that it may the better appeare that these are the right successors of the samaritanes , i vvil compare them together . first the samaritanes they toke it one them to serue the lord , 2. kings 17. 33. but they serued their idoles also . so these couenantmakers they toke it on or pretended to serue the lord in their sequestered priuat meetings from their brethren the antichristians , and so pretended to set vp the lords ordinances , but with all they would not forsake the antichristian estat , but walk in both together , and so continue as the samaritanes did . 2. the samaritanes thus abiding in their confusion or mixed religion , yet when the people of god retourned out of captiuitie they presented themselues , vnto them to be in vnion and communion , and profered to build with them , testifying that they did seeke the lord their god as they did , saying also that they had esra 4. 2. sacrificed vnto him from their first planting in samaria : so likewise these men although abiding in their mixed religion and confusion , yet esteeme it to be the true way of god , and would be esteemed : of those that are separated to be their brethren , and professe their way and course to be the building vp of the house of god ; taking vpon them the name of a true church . 3. although these samaritanes were not accepted , but refused , yet did som of them indirectly creept into communion with the people of god : so some of these creept into communion indirectly , pretending that vvhich they were not , in the which this man was the chiefe , first as i haue before showed when hee creept into mr. lees people into their communion , and after that cam ouer heare , and vvould haue had communion with vs : but hee seeing himselfe to haue resistance heare , after this hee vvent to leyden , and creept into that church , and so made of them a bridge to git in vnto vs. 4. the samaritanes in their corrupt estat fathered themselues vpon the ancient patriarches of the church , iohn 4. 12. 20. and contended with the true church as hauing the trueth with them : so likewise these account their mixed estat to be the true vvay of god , and condemne vs for vvholly separating from the false church : and contend vvith vs for it . 5. although these samaritanes vvere thus corrupt in their estat , yet had they attained vnto the chiefe pointes of faith concerning the messias , as may appeare by the speech of the woman iohn 4. 25. vvhich vvas one not stricke in life , vers . 18. & conuersation , i say , if shee vvhich vvas but a woman , could say so much , what may wee thinke was amongst the other samaritanes ; and also wee may see how redily they receiued christ , as vers . 39. & 42. showeth , and yet for all those points of doctrine which they had receiued , notwithstanding they were condemned by our sauiour christ , iohn 4. 22. as worshipping they knew not what : which teacheth vs how to judge , and esteeme of such mixed religions . and now these couenantmakers allthough they agree with vs in the chiefe pointes of faith , yet seeing they continue in their corrupt estat , being vnseparated from the false church , wee are taught of christ how to esteeme of them , and so leaue them to be the successors of the samaritanes , and their right heires . now this is the couenant which mr. s. maintaineth , and for the which hee so bestored himselfe when it was condemned : and doth not hee lay afar ground to keepe men in the way of desemblation , and so to remaine in the false church by the maintaining of this couenant : yee , & to be a snare to such as haue left them , if once they be possessed , with this errour , and let vs take himselfe for an example , for although hee had left the church of england , both as it was a nationall church , and also the parishes holding , both to be false , and being come so far reason should haue taught him , neuer to haue to doe with such a samaritanesh people againe in church communion , seeing they remain●… as they did vnseparated : yet since hee was cast out from vs , hee went and had communion with them , and baptized his child with them also : and vvhy went hee not rather to the assemblies , seeing that that is their most proper church estat , they being yet vnseparated , and for that their priuat meetings it is , but a schisme in babell , & in that their doing they make a breach in both estats , both in their antichristian estat , and in their pretended seruing of the lord , 2. kings 17. 33. 34. as the holy ghost testifieth of their predecessor . and further i say to him concerning ●…is clamours , who of our church hath tourned their backe vpon vs excepte those which hee is the cause of about these troubles in question , vvhich hee through much labouring , and others with him hath inticed : but if hee meaneth those of the church of leyden , which hath declined or apostated , is it not more probabell or rather to plane that they haue taken their ground from mr. ro. their pastour which hath opened so many pathe wayes : for them first in setting out a book for priuat communion vvith the members of the false church , 2. in the maintining of hearing in the assemblies to be no communion , 3. in the maintaining of this samaritanesh couenant : 4. in that booke called apologie , hee doth not only vvith smoth vvords darken the trueth , vvhich formarly hee * maintained . but also hee saith plainly speaking of the church of england in the 58. page , * and hee speaketh it in the name of the church of whom hee is pastor : that their faith doth not consist in the cōdemning of others , & wiping their names out of the bead roull of churches . and a little after hee saith : neither requier vvee of any ours in the confession of their faith that they either renounce or in one vvord contest vvith the church of england : in this it appeareth that hee is ashamed , and runeth from separation , and of this his alteration hath the aduersaries of the trueth taken nottise of , long before this last book came out so as i. p. saith , * speaking of his book , called the justification of separation . which hee sett out in the defence of the trueth , it being a good vvorke , yet thus hee speaketh of mr. rob. concerning it that hee openly pluckes out some of the bowells therof vvith his owne hands , and now seeing this is so , why doth this man indeuour to lay the fault vpon vs : which withstand these errours , and therfore wee are of him , and them euill spoken of : but as it is vsually seen that such as run from their masters do speake euill of them , so such as decline , do speake euill of them that oppose them : & therfore lett none merueill that wee are euill spoken of by mr. s. and by those that assist him , for it hath bin thus allwayes with the lords people in former times , yea euen the apostells of our lord jesus hath thus bin dealth withall : and now to these opposites i speak , wheras one of them twoo hertofor hath spoken to this effect , that if the couenant could be desproued , that then they ought to acknowledge their euill in the things , for the vvhich they were cast out : and although but one of them speake it , yet seing hee speak the trueth , and as it ought to be therfor , i wish them both to consider it , and for vs if the lord giue repentances vnto them wee shall be glad , and hould our armes open to receiue them : but alas vvhat hope is their of it , seeing this man hath so many times imitated the practise of absolom vvhich vvent in to his fathers concubins , that so all should haue no hope of reconciliation between them : so the third time hath hee printed his contention to the world , as if hee did meane to continue an adversary , and therfore by these hee bideth battell : but if his cause were better then it is , yet great is the euill hee doth therin in causing the name of the lord to be scandelled . another pathe way which hee maketh for libertines is in the maintaining of his refusing , to answer which is before spoken of , by vvhich president of his wee see the euill effect that hath followed , for suerly by his example the lo●…se ones of the church , and such as are corrupted begin to oppose that diligent watch as ought to be keept in the lords house , and with his example , and his bussie writing , and printing , and priuate corrupting of mens minds labouring to corrupt all that hee thinketh , hee can worke vpon as by experiance wee haue seene , and in deed not keeping to the things as they are , as i haue showed before . therefore that his sin in this point may the better appeare , i will briefly declare , and distingest betvveen priuat and publique matters , and then apply his cause vnto that which it appertaineth vnto . first i find in the scripture that the lord both vnder the law , also in this time of the gospell did so prouide , that all his people should bee preserued from giuing themselues liberty to sinne , both sins of priuat nature , and also of publique : the generall of this i find in leuit. 19. 17. which serueth either for publique or priuat , the words are these : thou shall not hate they brother in thine hart , but thou shalt plainly rebucke they neighbour ▪ & suffer him not to sinne . 2. obserue if the sinne be of priuat natur●… and committed priuate to the knowledge , but of one brother , then is that brother bound in priuat to shew the sinner his sin : and if hee hear and repent , their it must stay , and go no further : matth. 18. 15. and prou. 25. 9. because hee is wone and a sinner conuerted from going a stray , and a soule saued from death ●…ames 5. 20. now i purpose not hear to speake of all the degrees of dealing for sin : but only out of the scripture to show that which siteth the present purpose in hand . therfore 3. in the next place obserue that some sinnes that are priuatly cōmitted , are not priuatly to be ended by that one that knoweth it , as for example the intiser to idolatry deut. 13. 6. and also the committer of idolatry deut. 17. 2. 3. which sinnes the lord would not haue keept secret , deut. 13. 8. and which sinnes was , and is the pleasure of the eternall that they should not be keept secret , because hee would haue his people keept in their obedience vnto him as it is most reason they should aboue all things , and to preserue his trueth : and for the preseruation of his people , and therefor the sinner was to be brought forth that his people should hear and feare , and do no more such wickednes deut. 13. 11. compared with 1. timoth. 5. 20. and as in these transgressions the publique church is to see the end therof . 4. so likewise concerning the breach of the ordinances that god gaue to the church , that they parteine to the generall to looke vnto as vvee may see in actes 11. 2. for hauing but heard that petter had eatten vvith some vncircumcised , they thought hee had broken the ordinances , and therfore not knowing of his vvarrant they looked vnto it , & receiued his answer , yet vvas this done in a priuat house far of them , to wit , in cesaria . 5. likewise for doctrine vvhen any is maintained which is against the faith in the generall , or against the ordinances pertaining to the churches , this also belongeth to the publique assemblie to looke vnto , as wee may see in actes 21. 22. in the speech of the elders vnto paule , which although their went a false report of him that hee taught the iewes that were amongst the gentills to forsake moyses , yet wee see vpon that reporte they had right to come together to be satisfied how it should stand , but that it was preuented by gods prouidence another way . novv these examples i hope will be sufficient for the thing in hand : and now therefore i will compare his sinne with such of these causes as be of like nature . first therfore his factious meeting agreeth with the inticer to idolatry , deut. 13. 6. in that hee indeuoured to corrupt the mindes of the brethren to that his errour before proued . 2. how doe these twoo examples reproue his refusing to answer , for neither of them had committed sinne , yet had the publique right to hear the things cleared , yee although they were the apostells of christ , but this man maintained an errour in that his factious meeting , and such an errour which being receiued openeth a vvay to libertins , and destroyeth separation : and should not this belong vnto the publique to looke vnto and as a publique thing : if it be sayd their factious meeting vvas gathered in a priuat house , was not petters action don in a priuat house also , and that far of from them of ierusalem ? therefore such things as these must not be limited , to a priuat dealing . 3. obserue : hovv this had relation to the publique naturally , for first it vvas the errour vvhich the church did beare with him in and therfore hee was to keepe his judgment to himselfe , and not to corrupt other their with , also it being in the church , and the church hauing condemned the couenant : one of them tvvo professed to write : but presently the elder gaue them to vnderstand , that if they did that then they must answer it : and in deed is it a thing reasonable that that vvhich vvas publique , and communicated vnto all the whole body that one or two men should gather apart of the church to possesse their mindes against the church ; the church maintaining the trueth : or in common reason should not the church knovv vvhat they did i●… way of opposing in that their letter , seeing they had seene , and knowne all that the church had don , suerly hee layeth vpon some to be many masters , but in this they caried themselues as if they were the churches masters : and i suppose they would haue taken it to be very euill in the church to haue keept them out of the meeting , and not to let them know what the church did in that bussines : but they were presente as reason they should , and did disput to the vttermost of their power : but what would these men haue vs to thinke of their doing , vnlesse they would haue vs , thinke that they haue a priuiledge aboue others , if they haue then , let them shew it vnto vs : but i suppose they can show no priuiledge or true reason : for as all things of priuat nature may not be made publique without due order , so likewise that vvhich is of publique natur , and is in the publique , ought not to be opposed , and contredicted in the priuat in vnderhand dealing . but that they ought , and should be redy to shevv vvhat they do in such things , of such nature as this is : and wheras hee thus saith concerning pastour and teacher : but what hope of euer such vvorthies coming in when their is such an hideous noise in the house by such vnruly masters , which cruelly smit some wound others , and cast their deare brethren out at the windowes . answer , such worthies as hee speaketh of , i hope through the mercy of god , when the lord calleth them , will not be stayed , neither by such suttell oppossares as hee is knowing that in the apostells dayes , and in all ages the churchs hath bin troubled with such , nor yet with the weaknes or sinnes , which breake forth in the church : for all ought to know that the churchs of christ , are subject to faile as no doubte , but wee doe in our best actions , but are these things true which hee speaketh , of smiting & wounding , and casting our deare brethren out at the vvindowes , i hope hee meaneth himselfe specially for one that is so dealt withall : novv for the matter of his casting out , i haue before shewed , and for the manner of his casting out , hovv can hee tearme it , a cast out at the windowes , seeing it vvas done by the free consent of the church : yea and those vvhom hee now saith witnesse for them , did not only consente , but some of them hastened the elder to cast them forth , and then their owne alliance had not to speake for them : therfore if his cause had bin good against the church as it is not , yet might hee not so to haue written : for is not the going in or the casting out at the window , opposit to the going in or casting out at the dor , as wee may see in iohn 10. 1. and is their any planner manner of proceding then by the free consent of the church either to receiue in or to cast out : and was not the incestious person so cast out 1. cor. 5. 4. yea and so was mr. s. cast out by this church , and therfore cast out at the dore , and not at the window . and wheras he saith that vvee haue been bold to vent our worst , wee could imagine against him vpon all occasion , how is this true that hee saith when a●… wee let him alone so many yeares , although hee hath don vs great injury , and that in printe as before i haue showed , and much more i could shew , if i were of his disposition . but what shall a man git by such things , but rather deshonner the lord , and the trueth , and therfore i let many of his clamours alone vnanswered , because i judge it not wisdome to contend in such vaine contention , being greeued that i am occasioned to doe so much as i haue done by him ; further hee saith ●…nd for your presumptuous determining my eternall estat , the lord for giue you . answer , hee vvould make the reader beleeue that wee judge him a cast away , and that no repentance shall be giuen to him of god : but hovv euilly doth hee deale in this thing , it appeareth thus , mr. s. after hee vvas cast out yet came hee ordinarily euery lords day a great whille and troubled vs very much with heauy contention , wher vpon as i to my best remembrance hard a brother say , that it was doubtfull to him whether hee did not sinne against the holy ghost in that his doings : novv if the brother had spoken neuer so absolut , yet vvas hee but one man , why doth mr. s. speake as if it were the generall ; but this is his manner : vvill i do desir that the lord vvill giue him grace to shovv the contrary by repentance , but what an idle thing is this that hee will print such a thing as this : this vvas but a speech spoken by one man , and hee showing his judgment vpon mr. s. euill cariages then present and also before ; what may a vvise man thinke of this man , how hee straineth other things for his porpose , seeing in this hee dealeth so euilly : for to sett downe one mans speech in such tearmes as hee that readeth , may thinke it vvas the generall : and novv i haue answered his preface , wherin i haue lett alone diuers of his clamours , and admonissions , for these reasons follovvings first his clamours and admonissions do return vpon himselfe , his grounds being taken avvay , and so hee being answered in the main differances . 2. i am vnvvilling to follovv a man of his disposition in such idle contention in clamours and reproches , and in laying open of the infirmities of men to the vvorld , for i haue learned of dauid not to tell of such things in gath , nor to publish it in the streets of ashekelon , lest the daughters of the philistians rejoyce : & i could haue rewarded him the like , but i spare such things , and i am greeued that by him i was prouoked to speake that little i haue done , but i could not vvell auoid it : let the indifferant reader judge . 3. if i should go one vvith him in such vnprofitable strife , vvho vvould respect to reade it , but to cry the trueth out in the maine things indifferant , may bee profitable to them that haue a loue vnto the trueth ; and novv to ansvver to mr. s. postscript to the brethren absent , in the vvhich hee should haue had more care to sett dovvne the trueth of things as they are , seeing hee meant to send abroad his vnprofitable writings . brethren it may hapely seem strang to you , that the people hear complained of , should be so irregular in their proceedings , and so singular as to reject the helpe of all , but since they had their reasons , i thought it requisite to giue them their due herein , the reason why they proceded not by the rulle matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to doe with it , but vvith iosua 22. and 1. thess. 5. 22. ansvver , i say contrary to him that wee refuse not the helpe of any as their is just occasion , and therefore wee haue & do still professe , that if any church or christian can show vs vvherin wee sinne in any thing , vvee are redy to heare them , but for this poinct see the answer to his preface , vvher hee chargeth vs for rejecting of our 3●… . article , but let the reader obserue , hovv hee doeth skoffe vvith his ovvne abusing of vs , first obserue that hee vvould take away strange conceites out of the mindes of the absent brethren , by the giuen to vs our due in the shovving to them our reasons , which reasons hee mindes to bee very vnsufficient for the bussines in hand . answer , and so do i minde also as hee settes them downe : therefore i vvill obserue his doings , first where hee saith the reason vvhy vvee proceded not by the rull matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to do vvith it . answer , but is this all that wee haue sayd , haue wee not showed wherin wee had to do also vvith matth. 18. in this bussines , for that rull hath three degrees , the first , the second , & the third , & their is no sin handled in the church , which is not comprehended in this rull , and this wee hold which is contrary to that that hee hath sett downe , wheras hee saith ; but with iosua 22. and 1. thess. 5. 22. hear wee are greatly abused also , for although iosua 22. is effectuall for the bussines in hand , as after i shall show , yet that in the thesalo . is not of waighte for that hee settes it downe , neither vvas it to that end brought ; those scriptures was aledged to him in the publique when hee refused to debat the matter , the one prouing that christians ought to abstaine from all apparences of euill , but seeing he had run into it , this scripture being compared vvith iosua 22. they proue that christians ought to cleare themselues in such like causes as that vvas , and as their example reproueth them that vvould not follovv it , so likewise is the example of the church of israell an example and rull for all churches , to keepe the watch of the lord , that his publique ordinances should not bee broken also . wee find the like example in actes 11. wher peter submitted himselfe to the brethren at jerusalem , clearing himselfe and showed his warrant , that hee vvas sent of god : and now to ratifie to the consciences of all these scripture alledged , looke in the phil. 3. 17. which sayeth ; brethren bee followers together of mee : and marke them which walke so as you haue vs for an example . now the apostells , i hope , their writings are the commandements of the lord : who ought not to bee afraid to practise the contrary : novv i say these scriptures agree with matth. 18. concerning all publique matters in the 3. place : therefore when that was spoken by one , that wee had not to doe in this cause with matth. 18. it was to bee vnderstood concerning priuat sinnes , and of priuate nature : therfore when wee saw how hee peruerted that parties meaning , then there were other answeres giuen to cleare it , as i haue showed : if he hath giuen to vs our due in this , let the brethren judge : and wher hee saith and the reason why they reject all others helpe , was because they sayd they were contrary to all men . answer , for rejecting of helpe i haue answered before , but lett it bee obserued how euilly hee dealeth hear vvith vs , first hee saith , they sayd and hee knoweth it vvas but one mans speech , and therfore if it hath bin altogether a mise spoken , yet vvas it not the churches : for hee knoweth that nothing is the churches , but that which is taken by voice or consent vvith a space of silence : and that is to be reckoned the churches acte , and hee hath bin told of this oftentimes , and yet both hear , and in other places hee thus abuseth vs , moreouer although the words were not formable , and therfore not proper , yet hee knew his meaning vvhich vvas that all those vvhich he stod to haue to judge of his cause , were contrary to vs in this bussines : but to show his euill dealing , let it be obserued that hee quoteth the 1. thess. 2. 15. wher the apostell saith of the jevves vvho both killed the lord iesus , and their owne prophetes , and haue persecuted vs away , and god they please not , and are contrary to all men . now his quoting of this scripture to his speech , before spoken of , and showing no reason or distinction , should not men vnderstand that that should bee our also ; novv obserue first hee taketh hold of on mans speech , and maketh that the churches . secondly hee quoteth a scripture at his ovvne pleasure , and that must bee our also : is this to giue vs or due , then let the brethren judge . hee saith thus , i refer my selfe to the indifferante presente , vvhether i haue not sett downe their offences sparingly . answer , by the replie that is giuen now vnto you , let the indifferant reader judge whether you haue not spoken laifeshly and very euill doing wrong vnto your neighbours , & vnto the trueth by causing a scandall by your vnprofitable writing , and now lett the brethren judge between vs , yea and any indifferant also , and as for vs wee do acknowledge our offences and sinnes are many , for the which the lord may justly chastise vs many wayes , and also it may bee the lord hath bid mr. s. to abuse vs vvith his tonge , as hee bad shimei to curse dauid , 2. sam. 16. 11. but as shimei was not guiltles although dauid had prouoked the lord : neither is hee guiltles although vvee haue many offences ; but how do i see adam in him posting of his sin , nay i would hee did so much as adam , for although adam did say the woman that thou gauest mee , she gaue mee of the tree : yet hee saith this also , and i did eat : wherin hee did acknowledge hee had broken gods command . if this man did say so much , i should haue hope of him : but what shall i say , i doe desir that hee may do it freely , and that is all the hurt i wish him . before this former answer vvas finished , this man hath sett out his third engion into the world , in the vvhich hee playeth the rowears part vvhich setteth out other mens colleres , to the end they may the easier surprise the marchants ships ; the penner of this , after letter appeareth to bee mr. robinson , who vvas forvvard enought to helpe this man in his corrupt estat , as it appeareth by this letter : yet novv i suppose hee vvrit by his information , but whether hee did or not , if now in the ansvver therof , their bee that spoken which please not his friends , and those which consented vnto this letter : then let them thanke this bussy man , vvhich set it out to the world ; and let them know whosoeuer they be , that the trueth must bee preferred befor the respect of any , be they few or many . the preface to the letter hath this title , an appeale on trueths behalfe , what hee meaneth by trueth hee giueth to vnderstand at the end of his preface , and referreth the reader to the letter , vvherby i vnderstand these 2. first his refusing to answer , and his factious meeting which hee calleth lawfull , but of these 2. pointes lett the reader obserue the ansvver before giuen , and then it vvill appeare that these desearueth no such title , but rather to bee titled a plaeye against the trueth . here follow the preface to the letter . our opposites after much and long strugling as vvild creatures taken in a snar , perceiuing neither freind nor forenner , knovv how to yeld them any reliefe , though they creept basely for it : being yet set to hold it out trueth fayling them . answer . now this man beginneth to shew himselfe in his kinde , and obserue , i pray , his differant cariage in the beginning of his least booke before this , and also the first hee cometh vvith fare , showes and woud make the vvorld beleeue that that which hee doth is all in loue , and therfore hee calleth vs brethren , although euen then hee did vs great injury , but vvhat maketh him to change his tune so quickly : it seemes by his ovvne words the very hearing that wee porpose to make ansvver to his clamours : and novv how doth hee bestore himselfe , telling to all to whom his writing shall come , that trueth faileth vs , and that wee are taken in a snare , and that wee can haue no reliefe with the rest of his vanting words , and all this and more hee doth , before such time as wee haue put out any ansvver vnto him : therfore hee is more like ●…nto a vvild createur , or like vnto a man that is vvilde in condition , which hauing heard that his ennimy doth porpose to meete vvith him , presently hee drayweth out his sorde , and their with smiteth round about him , and crieth out to his ennimy that hee can not stand before him : but yet i thinke hee should haue stayed himselfe , till one combat had bin tried , and not this to haue vanted himselfe . well i will leaue it to consideration whether gaall judges 9. 29. or hee bee the greatest boasteres , and if wee be as hee saith taken in a snare : hee wanteth not will to hold vs fast , but i will grant him to be the diuells snare layare , as before i haue showed , and i also grant : that hee and some with him hath in snared and troubled the mindes of some which hath troubled vs , & now that hee being a chiefe instrument in this our troubles , or strugling as he tearmeth it , let him take the shame of it vnto himselfe , and let him and all know , that wee are commanded to striue ernestly for the faith once giuen to the saincts , iude 3. and for vs i hope wee shall haue cause to say as the psalm saith , our soule as a bird is escaped out of the snare of the fowler , the snar is broken , and wee are escaped , psalm 124. 7. and for to looke for help at the hands of men , vvee leaue that vnto him which doth so labour for it ; and it shall bee sufficient for vs to haue the vvord of the lord for our warrant , to satisfie the conscience of all that feareth the lord. and wheras hee saith that wee creept basely for helpe or reliefe . i know no such thing , yet obserue how contrary hee is vnto himselfe , one whille hee saith wee reject the helpe of all , and hear hee saith that wee creept basely for reliefe , and neither of them are true , as hee would make the reader to vnderstand , for i haue answered before that wee reject the helpe of none in due order , and as their is just occasion . and vvheras hee saith novv they vnconsciennably inuent slanderes hoping after so long time past , they may now boldly change the causes of our differances , and say vvee were cast out for a tempting to lead them to idolatry , and so all wee haue published is no other then lyes , vvhich they novv threaten to manifest to all the vvorld . answer . wee vvill leaue the inuenting of slanderes vnto himselfe , vvho hath so laueshly let his tong , and pen run that way as hath bin showed , neither will vvee change the causes of our differances , and therfore i haue layd it downe before that they were cast out , for a factious or vnlawfull meeting . 2. for contempt of gouernment in their refusall to answer or to debat their matter , and 3. for contention in the manner of cariages , these were the heades of their causes of their casting out : but now doth hee thinke by this his clamours to stay vs that wee shall not speake , or lay open his sin in the perticulars as vvee haue just occasion , vvhich is contained in chose generall heads , and seeing hee would not debat his matter before hee vvas cast out , but vvould haue it tourned backe in to priuat : therfore although hee hear of it in the publique , vvee do him no injury , seeing hee administers the occasion , and if vvee should not lay open the perticulars to proue the faction , or vnlavvfull meeting , hee i suppose vvould take the aduantage therof ; therfore let the reader obserue the ansvver before giuen , but that any hath so spoken as hee settes it dovvne , i knovv none , yet if there did any so speake , they shot some thing nearer the marke , if the perticular bee looked into : and vvhereas hee saith that vvee ▪ euer haue shuned triall to such clamours , i haue ansvvered before : but wheras hee saith that this letter doth manifest it wher also contrary , to our saying is confearmed that they censered vs for not , acknovvledging intraping demandes , for christ government and a lavvfull peacable meeting for faction ▪ answer . hovv this letter doth manifest this vvhich hee saith , it vvill in the ansvvering thereof appeare in the meane time ; to him i ansvver , vvee might vvonder how mr. rob. can conferm that vvhich hee speaketh of , seeing hee vvas altogether ignorant hovv things were caried , and then on the other hand considering hovv hee vvas corrupted vvith the same errour , and more errours of like natur , vvhich also receiued him by that samaritanest couenant , and also receiued for trueth this mans information , and those that assist him ; considering of these things wee may obserue what caried away his affection : but for answer , i giue this man to vnderstand that solomon prouerbes 18. 17. hath told vs the condition of such as hee is , therfore the greatest and first complainers are not allwayes the most clears of euill : and therefore now let such as know the trueth judge and consider what is sayd betvveen vs concerning this matter . hear follovveth the ansvvering of the letter of the church of leyden . wee receiued your letter brethren , but not ansvvering either our expectation , or the vvaightnes of the bussines in hand . answer . this waightie bussines vvhich hee speaketh of , vvas a reconciling of those persons , vvhich vvas cast out for these things in question , and hovv should vvee answer their expectation , seeing those opposites were so stiffe in their sinfull course as that speech doth manifest , which one of them spake aluding to paule actes 24. 14. in vvhich speech hee vvould seem to imitat paule , but although it vvas good in paul to vse that speech , and showed his fearmnes in the trueth : yet vvas it euill in mr. s. to vse that speech in the behalfe of his sinne , and it showed his stifnes in the same , and therefore no hope of reconciliation , they so standing in that minde : and vvheras mr. robin . vvould seen to justifie him for his stifnes , saying first touching the person intended by you , i should not seeme strange to any , if hee were most forvvard vvho vvas deeply interested in the bussines , and that so far as his church estat and membership must necessarily stand , or fall vvith that couenant impugned by you , as the branch vvith the roote . answer , i denie that his membership should stand or fall by that couenant , for wee receiued him to vs one these two grounds , first as a member coming from the church of leyden , vvith vvhom wee vvere in communion . 2. as being a man capable , because hee vvas fully separated from the false church , and this hee had manifested vnto vs before wee receiued him : and although the church of leyden vvhich held the couenant true , did so receiue him by that couenant , yet wee allwayes rejected that couenant : and did not receiue him by that couenant vnto vs , for vvee hauing novv another ground to go vpon . first that hee vvas a man absolutly separated . 2. that hee being novv a member of a true church , vvhich vvas in communion vvith vs : and allthough mr. s. vvas contrary to himselfe in that hee vvas novv separated , yet held that couenant true : yet else how should wee beare vvith him in the differance of his judgment according these scripturs , rom. 14. 1. and phil. 3. 14. 15. alwayes prouided that hee keept his errour to himselfe , and not to corrupt others their vvith , and this vvill stand vvith the scriptures that so vvee receiued him : yet if any can show vs other vvayes that it will not stand , but that wee ought to haue don more ; then there is a remedy by faith and repentance in christ to helpe all our a mise doings , and not to run vnto such extreme conclusions as mr. robin . would driue it , nay yet further i say , that if the church of leyden , vvho first receiued him , and that by the vertue of that couenant ▪ if they had come to see their errour in so doing , yet vvould it not follovv that hee should bee desmembered , seeing hee vvas separated : but the church ought to acknovvledge their sinne in so doing , and to see that hee corrupted not other reu. 2. 20. with his errour : and that reason helpeth him not from gen. 29. 24. where hee saith , as zilpah vvas not , nor could bee rightfully leahs handmaide , except shee had bin labanes first rightfully : by whose gift shee was transmitted and conueyed vnto her . answer , i grant that laban could not rightfully giue her , except shee had bin his rightfully before : but if laban had stollen her , and zilpah had run avvay , and come to leahs into the land of cannan , then leahs might haue bought her , or haue hiered her , and yet laban should haue no injury offered vnto him , vnlesse his stealling her , made her his rightfully vvhich ne●… man ought to say . so likewise , neither the church of leyden , nor any true church , ought not to receiue any from such an vnseparated people , seeing they haue but stollen the ordinances of god , and haue no right vnto them . and whereas hee bringeth these reasons to proue his deepe intrest in the bussines , let all know , that no conceited intrest vvill beare out any to maintaine an errour : and therefore all his reasonings is of little weight . and for that hee saith that the couenant vvas by the churches both here and there , also in the time of those vvorthy gouernors , now at rest in the lord esteemed truely christian , i pray let vs examme the trueth of this , that the churches both here and there did so esteeme : for our selues i may say that the church neuer did receiue it , and therefore not so esteeme it : neither vvas the voice of the church euer taken concerning that couenant , but vvhen they showed their minde to bee contrary vnto it , and condemned it : or doth mr. robin . thinke that because our teacher , who was a mise informed , did a little whille esteeme of the couenant ; that therefore the church must so esteeme also , and thought that wee must doe as these which consented to this letter , which followed o●… suffered him in all , or the most of his declinings : and for that church which is present in the place vvhere those couenantmaker are , as wee are truely informed by themselues , they did neuer receiue it . how is this true then vvhich mr. robin . sayd : but if it had bin so , what vveight is there in that reason , to helpe the couenant , much like vnto the reason of the pharises iohn 7. 48. which sayd against christ , doth any of the rulers or the pharises beleeue in him , but this people vvhich know not the law , are cursed . therefore i conclud , it is not the esteeme of churches , nor of gouernors which giueth authority to such things , but the word of the lord : and where hee saith the party intended by you , should by your grounds not haue bin cast out , but left out of the church . answer , our grounds inforce not that conclusion , seeing the person vvas novv become a separated person , and a member of the church of leyden , from whence wee receiued him , as before i haue showed , in the next place there is a syd and a halfe of the printed letter spent to excues , and to justify mr. s. in that speech , in the vvhich hee seemed to imitat paule actes 24. 14. but of that i haue spoken before , yet still i answer , that those his speechs did proue his stifnes in that his former course , and therefore of reconciliation wee had no hope while hee so stod and continued , and for mr. robinson profering to come and to justifie mr. s. in that his former proceding : to the which i answer , wee know well that hee vvas redy to that bussines , and that hee was one vvith him in that his errour , and therefore just cause wee had not to bee redy to giue him intertainment to come as a moderator to middle the matter , seeing wee find no such president in the booke of god , yet this wee hold and professe , that if any can show that vvee haue sinned in any thing , vvee ought and are redy to heare them , and this haue vvee signified vnto the church of leyden by letter , and therefore the way vvas open for them to come in that manner . in the next place hee saith : and wheras the course well begone and tending to pacification , was as wee vnderstand interrupted and broken of vpon a ground taken from the course of not calling againe into question ciuill judgments , once passed by the judge according to right ; let it not bee greiuious vnto you , if wee a little warne you of that dangerous foundation vpon which it seemes you to much build your manner of procedings in the church . answer . to hould that matters being ended according to right , ought not at mens pleasures to bee called into question againe , i see not this proued to bee dangerous , by all that which mr. rob. haue sayd : for if matters rightfully ended , should at mens pleasurs bee called into question , vvhen vvould their bee an end of contention , either in the church or in the common wealthes : and for the distinction which hee puteth between the ending of ciuill judgments , & of the casting forth of the sinner by the church : namly that repentance should follow to these distinctions . wee agree and signifie withall , that if wee could see that good worke in these persons in question ▪ there vvould bee quickly are conciliation , but yet further i ansvver , to take away occasion from such as take an occasion to cauill at things equall , that wee hold it lawfull although a matter bee rightly ended : yet vvee may go ouer it againe , as the occasion may bee offered , yea and more then once : and this wee haue practised in this matter in the publique with these men diuers times : but yet it vvill not follow , that at mens pleasurs wee must do this , and bring our liberty into bondage , and so to vphold contention . but wher hee saith that a larger extent of discretion this vvay fevv causes in any age can persuad to : then this in hand , considering both the ground and cariage of the thing , and the number of the persons opposite , and vvith these intrest of all other church in the bussines . answer . the comparison of any age is more fit to shovv eloquence , and to set a glose vpon the thing in hand , rather then to proue that for vvhich it is brought , and for the ground and cariage of the thing , i haue before spoken of it , to the which i refere the reader ; and for the number of the persons opposite , i answer , although i am sory they are so many , yet i am glad they are so few , seeing these men are such suttell opposers & labour so much to corrupt the mindes of the simple : and hauing with them ioab the captaine , and abiather the preist , i meane mr. robinson and his people to establish them in their straying , and wee hauing bin to backeward to withstand them in these their doings . these things considered , it is the lords mercy that wee are preserued , but if these opposers were many more then they bee : it is no argument of weight to cause vs to yelde to any vndirect course , whereby the trueth should bee betrayed , but obserue , i pray you , that one , if not more then one of those persons whom mr. robin . would at aime haue respected ; yet a little before hee calleth a light person , and i will not striue with him about it , seeing his or their change was like the barbarians , act. 28. 6. and for the intrest of all other churches in the bussines . i answer , i knovv no proper intrest that any church had in this bussines , for the which they were cast out , but our owne in which they were members , for vnto vs it did appertaine to looke vnto their faction , in the vvhich faction they indeuoured to corrupte our members vvith that their errour , and hath not euery church a particular right to vvatch ouer their owne members : therefore i conclude , that this is but a glose to deceiue the minde of them that readeth it . and vvheras hee telleth that satisfaction for the manner of the cariage hath bin tender by the parties censured : answer , wee should haue bin glad , if they did tender repentance for the matters themselues , and had they not bin vpholden by these men in these their errours , it may bee before now , long they might haue repented of the matters also : for they were as stiffe at the first , when they vvere cast out for the manner as the matters . and where mr. robinson saith , that in a matter of meere counsaile and aduise , more then which neither the church of london requiered , nor you could afford them , any particular person aduised with , and hauing their reasons of differances from the church persuasion , may and in causes of weight such as this was ought by speech or vvriting as their is occasion signifie , that their different judgment and aduise to them whom it concernes prouided the same bee done in good manner , and with due respect to the church . answer , the trueth ought to bee respected , and also the church which maintained the trueth , but neither of these was so respected as they ought , as before bin showed , by those men in that their doings : moreouer i could except against this , that it was not properly counsail , or aduise in this point in question , vvhich that church desired , but to let this passe . i ansvver , might not any heriticke haue such pretences to broch their errours by such smouth grounds or termes , as these bee vnder the pretence of counsaile or aduise : what if the church of smyrna , reu. 2. 8. being solissited by a seducer to receiue the doctrine of balaam , and should therefore send to the church at pergamos , reu. 2. 12. for their counsaile to know whether they ought to receiue it or reject it , if then the church of pergamos did giue them counsayle not to receiue it , and that by the word of god : might those others vvhich vvere corrupted vvith that errour in that church , gather themselues apart from the church , and send their counsaile to receiue that errour , and so oppose the trueth and the church in their procedings ? m. robin . saith yea in smouth tear●…es . but i say no : because that if the ( vers . 14 ) church of pergamos and thyatira reu. 2. 20. were blamed for suffering them before to teach and deceiue the lords people , then their sinne would bee more , to lett them go on to corrupte the lords people , although they should plead with mr. rob. smouth termes of counsaile or aduise : and therefore the scripture out of prou. 11. 14. is by him abused : neither is their any liberty taken away from any , seeing none hath liberty to broach errour : and herein was the church to vse authority , and also to show reason vvhich vvee haue done and vvhen wee did it , although it was at the request of the church to vvhome vvee vvrit : then this man toke an occasion thereat to make all this trouble . further hee saith , that seeing both moyses in the law deut. 19. 15. and christ in the gospell matth. 18. 15. 16. 17. ordains , that euery matter should bee established by two or three witnesses . answer . there were more then tvvo vvitnesses vvhich knew the facte vvhich they had done from their one mouth , besides some that were their : but what need is here not to presse for vvitnesse , vvhen themselues allwayes confessed the fact ? only here is the difference , they thinke it was well doing : and so mr. robinson saith also , but wee say and knovv it to bee euill : why then do they not lay this contention a syd and stand to maintaine their cause to make it good or to acknowledge their euill : and for these scriptures by him alledged wee acknowledge the force of them , that no man which denieth a fact , can bee condemned vnder two witnesses , but what of this , i hope they should also acknowledge , that if there bee no witnesse , yet if a man do freely confesse a fact worthy of death , that then that man should dye , and yet those scriptures not in the least broken : for dauid which put the amalakit to death , knew these scriptures alledged , and also hee knew that hee broke them not ; because his owne mouth was as sufficient as many vvitnesses . now if no more vvere sayd , it were sufficient to gainsay that vvhich mr. robin ▪ saith , that wee do herein against moses and christ , and the law of the nature it selfe , where hee bringeth actes 24. 8. 13. yet further i answer , mr. robin . faileth in his ground , for hee taketh it for granted from mr. s. information , that vvee went vpon suspected euills , and this mr. s. runeth vpon also bringing our 8. position as before is showed : seeing then they mise in the ground , all falleth at once : and now you may see how well the church of leyden hath made good their charge , and which mr. s. boasted of before : and therefore mr. rob. clamours of that large liberty which hee speaketh of , and saith hee can maintaine will here fall to the ground . but vvhere hee saith : and novv brethren , vvhat shall wee say more vnto you , our and all other churches aduise you , reject in confidence of your owne vnerring judgment , and proceding in this matter . answer , for vs wee confesse that wee are subject to erre , yet ought wee not therefore to forsake any part of the trueth for tanting words , which mr. robinson herein vseth to reproch vs withall , and also maketh a show of that which is not wherein hee dealeth like mr. s. vvith vvhom hee is a brother in euill : but vvhat and where are those other churches hee speaketh of , hee should therefore haue keept himselfe to his ovvne church vvhich had consented to this euill letter , vvhich hee hath written , but if hee could shovv other churches , vvhich did so aduise vs , were it not a vvorthy argument to conuince vs. therefore i say to the law , and to the testimonies of the lord , if they can bee brought to ouersway our reasons , i trust the lord will giue vs hearts to submit therevnto , and vvhere hee vvisheth that vvee did see our weaknes , and saith then would you not procede vvith that confidence , in a matter and manner before ynheard of in the churches . answer : how true this is , it doth appeare by the answer to mr. s. preface before : for their i haue layd downe the matter and approued our course by the word of god , and haue the examples of the churches of god in the like causes , which by the vvord of the lord is approued : and for our weaknes wee knovv it , and confesse it , yet ought wee not willfully to cast away our obedience from the least of gods preceptes , or commandes , which hee hath giuen vs to walke in , vpon mr. rob ▪ suttle inticements , yet wee are redy to hear what any man can informe vs , by the word of the lord : and therefore that sentence hee might haue spared , wher hee saith , as if the word of god either came from you , or vnto you alone , and who can not abuse scripture phrases to effect their willes . lastly hee endeth his letter vvith vpbrading of vs , which is as , i suppose , a principall cause that mr. s. hath set it out to the vvorld , because it agreeth vvith his manner of reproching of vs , as followeth : and for the church here vvhich is nearliest vnited vnto you , vvhat other vse haue you had of vs since the death of your vvise and modest gouernors in all your differances and troubles ? saue to helpe to bear part of the scandall & opprobry , wherwith specially in the publique cariage of matters , you haue layden the ordinances of god and professors of the same in the eyes of all within and vvithout : but in vaine vvee speake vnto you , vvhose eares prejudice hath stopped . ansvver , in deed nearlist in dwelling , but fardist of in affection as it may appeare , not only by this bitter letter , but also to strangers , as occasionally they passe by their dwellings , by vvhome it cometh to our eares , hovv bitterly they inuay against vs ; and what is the cause , because wee wil not receiue their new found vvayes of declining , and because wee deslike that they looke not better to the lords vvatch in suffering their members to apostat : some declining to the church of england , & their liuing , other going a great compase to new england to communicat with the church of england : and some of them that are in this land professe to hear in the assemblies , as they haue occasion ; and i make no doubte , but they haue don it many times : and this their negligent watch hath effected so , that from a great company they are allmost come to nothing or fewer then those vvhom they despies , and haue sayd concerning vs , that our contentions would break vs to peeces . and further i say that our troubles haue by them bin increased in vnjust , taking part vvith our opposites ; so that the prouerbe is in them fullfilled which saith , prou. 27. 17. yron sharpeneth yron : so doth man sharpen the face of his friend ; for mr. s. informeth mr. rob. and his people a mise , and they againe sharpen his face , and harden him in his euill , and others that take his part : and so increase our trouble and also the scandall , and herin they fullfill this prouerbe : prou. 28. 4. they that forsake the law , praise the vvicked : and therfore lett it not bee though contention , allthough wee faile in the manner of the doing of it : if wee keepe and obserue the other part of the prouerbe vvhich saith ; but they that keepe the lavv sett themselues against them . and novv my brethren that are absent , i speake to all that are faithfull , if all the churches of god , gala. 1. 7. phili. 3. 18. 2. peter 2. 1. or the most of them haue bin thus troubled as the scriptur doeth plentyfully shovv , vvhy should it seeme strang vnto you , as if some strang thing had befallen vs , or as if it vvere other vvayes vvith vs then it hath bin vvith the churches of god , euen in the dayes of the apostells and in all ages , yea and hath not the apostells act. 20. 30. foretold that such things must bee , saying , for their must bee heresies amongst you , that they vvhich are approued may bee made manifest amongst you : 1. cor. 11. 19. if therfore vvee striue for the trueth , and to abolish sinne , vvee do herin the will of god : therefore our lord teacheth vs to judge with consideration iohn 7. 24. saying , iudge not according to the apparence , but judge righteous judgment . neither let any stomble or bee offended at any weaknesses they see , or espie in vs , for wee are but vveake men compased about vvith the same infirmities euen as other , yet desiring to bee helped by any ; let therfore such as haue a loue vnto the trueth , rather sett their shoulder to the lords vvorke , and helpe to bear the burden , gala. 6. 2. which the lord hath appointed : and let all know that as it is euill to giue justly an offence for any to stomble , so is it dangerous to bee offended in christ , as our lord saith , matth. 11. 6. and blessed is hee that shall not bee offended in mee . and vvher mr. rob. saith that our cares are stoped vvith prejudice . answer , it hath bin time for him to say this , if hee had conuinced vs of errour or sinne , but to run on thus vpon an vnjust ground , may rather bee judged prejudice in him . and wheras hee saith , that they will bewaile our state , which is in deed to bee bevvailed : to this i answer , allthough hee doth mise the right mark in this his bewayling of vs , for hee bevvayleth vs because wee withstand his errour and declining , yet for our selues i say vvee haue cause to bee sory , or to bewayle our sinnes and vveakness●…s , and also our troubles which our opposites hath made : and the more sory vvee are that hee and his people hath vnjustly helped them as this letter doeth manifest , and vvhich i haue noted before , yet more i say bevvayle or weepe not for vs only , but for themselues in respect of those euills and declinings before showed : and thus i end vvith the letter of the church of leyden , desiering all to consider of that vvhich is vvritten , in the which their is no eloquence , for i want learning and am but a bab in christ : yet i pray consider that when a child , pleadeth reason , it ought the more to bee regarded , because it proceed from so simple an vnderstanding : so looke vpon the cause to bee the more just and equale , because i am but weake , and haue not been hertofore so imployed . and novv as elihu saith iobe 34. 3. the ear crieth words as the mouth casteth meats ; therefore try the reasons and scriptures alledged , and as paule saith 2. timo. 2. 7. consider what i say and the lord giue thee vnderstanding in all things . fin . concerning the publique passages of things in the church which ●…re in this booke , i haue been carefull to keepe to the trueth of things , yet it may bee in some vvord or vvordes vvhich is not materiall , to change any sence may haue escaped , therefore for the more certainty of the trueth thereof , i did first reuise them with diuers brethren : and then i read it in the publique , first because all should take knowledge of the rightstanding of the cause indifferant : secondly because i would not allvvayes striue about words and things which concerneth not the things indifferant : and so to fill the vvorld full of needlesse contention , vvhich is neither to gods glory , nor yet to the comfort of him that doeth it . fault escaped . in page 2. line 8. seeing is wanting . p. 4. l. 4. read vs for his . p. 4. l. 21. a mise for inse . pag. 5. l. 2. read sinne for sence . p. 5. l. 9. read were for was . p. 5. lin . 23. read appealing for appearing . p. 5. l. 30. read said for sayth . p. 8. l. 37. read proued for proue . p. 11. l. 2. read circumcision for circoncision . p. 11. l. 23. read second for two . p. 12. l. 11. read the for to . p. 13. l. 6. read prouoke for prouoque . p. 13. l. 12. read scerching for cerching . p. 15. l. 17. our is vvanting . p. 25. l. 33. read try for cry . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a13299-e200 r. b. d. p. s. i. e. h. a. b. * iustification of separ●…tion . * obserue this is the 〈◊〉 which mr st. 〈◊〉 to haue . * an a●…row against the sep●…ration of the b●…un . pag ●…9 . line 25. certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, richard archbishop of canterbury, richard bishop of london, william bishop of lincolne, garvase bishop of worcester, william bishop of exeter, & thomas bishop of peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere. 1605 approx. 182 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 35 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a69195 stc 6572.5 estc s112734 23368998 ocm 23368998 13051 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a69195) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 13051) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 922:14 or 1812:10) certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, richard archbishop of canterbury, richard bishop of london, william bishop of lincolne, garvase bishop of worcester, william bishop of exeter, & thomas bishop of peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere. bancroft, richard, 1544-1610. 68 p. r. schilders], [middelburg : 1605. place of imprint and name of publisher suggested by stc (2nd ed.). signatures: a-h⁴ i². title in ornamental border. errata: p. 68. item at 922:14 is incorrectly identified as stc 6573. reproduction of originals in the huntington library and the harvard university library. created by 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tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brownists. church vestments -england. liturgical objects -england. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-07 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-07 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion certaine demandes with their grounds , drawne out of holy writ , and propounded in foro conscientiae by some religious gen̄tl . vnto the reverend fathers , richard archbishop of canterbury , richard bishop of london , william bishop of lincolne , garvase bishop of worcester , william bishop of exeter , & thomas bishop of peterbourough , wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true , plaine , direct , honest and resolute aunswere . isai . 66. 5. heare the word of the lord , all ye that tremble at his word , your brethren that hated you , & cast you out for my names sake , said , let the lord be glorified : but he shall appeare to your ioy , and they shal be ashamed . ier. 23. 27 thinke they to cause my people to forget my name by their dreames , which they tell every man to his neighbour , as their forefathers have forgotten my name , for baall ? isai . 8. 16. bind vp the testimony : seale vp the law among my disciples . isai . 8. 20. to the law and to the testimony , if they speake not according to this word : it is because there is no light in them . 1605. to the reverend fathers , &c. right reverend fathers , your lordships having bene a long tyme divinitie readers in the schole of christ , and some of vs also , a long tyme scholers brought vp in the same schole at your feete , give vs leave , we pray you , by way of question , and not of definition , to propound these demaundes following . and as we brieflie and plainly have opposed , so let your lordships be wel pleased simply and honestly to make vs answere . for we having ( as the men of beraea did ) searched the scriptures , for our satisfaction in the doubtes propounded , and out of them , not being able to resolve our selves , our desire is , to be resolved , by men of greater skill , and not to rest our selves vpon our owne iudgements . now then we thus propound , and we thus demaund : first , whether every supreme christian magistrate , for every commaund to be given by vertue of his christian magistracie , touching the worship of god , ought not to have the word of faith , for the ground and warrant of his commaund ; that so his commaund being of faith , may not be of sinne ? secondly , whether any supreme christian magistrate , by authoritie of holy writ , be inabled to devise , ordayne and appropriate a ministeriall garment for the ministerie of the gospell , without putting on of which garment , he may commaund the ministers of the gospell , neither publikely to pray , to preach the worde , nor administer the sacramentes ? thirdly , if it be lawfull for a soveraigne christian magistrate , by authoritie of holy writ , to ordayne and appropriate a ministeriall garment , for the ministers of the gospell , then we demaunde , whether by authoritie of holy writt , he may ordayne and appropriate such a ministeriall garment , as in matter and forme , differeth not from that proper and necessarie priestlie garment , which the prince , & chief priest of idolatrie hath appropriated to be worne by his jdolatrous priestes in their idoll service ? the reason moving vs to make the first demaund , respecteth some others , rather then our selves . for we doubt not , but that every supreme christian magistrate , will agnize , that every his mandatorie action concerning the outward worship of god , of what nature , or qualitie soever it be ( if it be not sinne ) must be of faith . and that no such action of his , can be of faith , vnles the same have the word of faith for the ground and warrant thereof . concerning the second demaund , for our partes we never yet read of any commaundement , of any word of faith , or of any godly example in holy writt , whereby the supreme christian magistrate , is either directly , or by consequence inabled to ordayne and appropriate a ministeriall garment , for the ministers of the gospell . for howsoever by imitation of the priestly garmentes , ordayned for the leviticall priesthood , vnder the law , your lordships may thinke that a ministeriall garment may lawfully be commaunded for the ministers of the gospel : neverthelesse , there being an expresse commaundement given vnto moses , vnder the law , for the one , and no generall or particular rule delivered vnto a christian magistrate , in the gospell , for the other , we desire to be satisfied by your lordships , whether such an imitation of leviticall garments , be lawfull , yea or no ? if your lordships answere , that the institution of a ministeriall garment , vnder the gospel , is not by imitatiō from the leviticall law , then we demaund , from whence the originall and ofspring of that ministeriall garment came ? if your lordships answere , that it sprange originally from mans invention , then you directly charge the christian magistrate , to have no rule of faith for the guidance of his conscience in the institution of a ministeriall garment . for your lordships very well know , and according to this your owne knowledge , have a longe tyme taught vs , that no devise or invention of man , can be a divine rule , for a christian magistrates conscience to be guyded by . but aswell for the better clearing of the proper and right vse of the priestlie garmentes vnder the law , as also of the cleare opening of this poynt , namely , that no reason can bee yeelded , from the vse of the priestly garmentes vnder the law , for the vse of ministeriall garmentes vnder the gospell , we demaund : whether your lordships did ever read in any parte of holy writ , that the priestes were commaunded to eate the passeover in any other garmentes , then in their ordinary garments ? whether your lordships did ever read in any parte of holy writ , that any holy ministeriall garment was commaunded to bee worne , by him , that cut of the foreskinne of the fleshe vpon the eight day ? whether your lordships have read in any place of holy writt , that the prophetes had any proper or speciall attire , enioyned vnto them , as a proper and necessarie habite , wherein they should exercise , and without which they might not exercise their propheticall office ? for wee finde it written ; when the prophet hasted , and tooke the ashes away from his face , that the king of israll knew him , that he was of the prophetes . whereby it seemeth vnto vs , that , that prophet , rather by his face , then by his proper propheticall garment , was discerned from other men to bee a prophet , especially in the execution of that his propheticall function : and this agayne is made more manifest , by those wordes which saule vsed , when meeting with samuell in the middest of the gate of one of the cities of zuph , he questioned with him after this maner : tell me , i pray thee , where the seers house is ? for had the prophets bene known in those dayes by their proper propheticall garmentes , then needed not saul in the middest of the gate , and at so solemne a feast , to have enquired of samuell , for the seers house . but it is written , that saule knew that it was samuell , when an ould man came vp , lapped in a mantell , and isayah was commanded to loose his sackcloth from his loynes , and to put off his shoe from his foote . and againe it is written : and in that day shall the prophetes bee ashamed every one of his vision , when he hath prophecied , neither shall they weare a rough garment to deceyve : and lastly , that iohn the baptist had his garment of camels hayre , and that a girdle of a skinne was about his loynes : by all which places it is apparant , that in ould tyme the prophetes vsed a speciall attyre , or habite , and were accustomed to put vpon them a distinct kinde of garment from other men . we confesse plainly and simply , that your lordships herein speake the trueth , neither doe we denie , that it is both lawfull and convenient for the minister of the gospell , dayly & ordinarily , to weare such a speciall kinde of civile apparell , as whereby he may be knowne from being a marchant , a lawier , a gentleman , or an husbandman : but what for that ? for to the poynt in question , what resolution is that ? for how followeth is , that the prophet isayah , the other old prophets , and iohn baptist ▪ by their every dayes rough and hayrie apparell , whersoever in the streetes , in the fields , in the markets , in the schooles , in the gates , in the court , or in the countrey , they were seene , how ( we say ) doeth it follwe ( they being knowne by their speciall garments to be of the number of the prophetes ) that therefore whensoever in the temple , in the synagogue , or in any other place , wherin they prophesied , that they put vpon that their ordinary and vsuall garment , some other garment , necessarily and properly to be worne in their propheticall office ? and without which necessary and propheticall garment , it was not lawfull for them to prophesie ? if your lordships could make good your obiection by the holy scriptures , you should then have some colour from the example of the old prophets , to affirme that extraordinary prophets , ( if there were any in our times ) might weare some rough and haytie garments ; but to alleadge these examples , as sufficient authorities for ordinary pastours & teachers , that they may or ought to weare proper ministeriall garments , whensoever they pray , preache the word or administer the sacraments , is to alleadge quidlibet pro quolibet ? insteed of a kernell , to give a nutshale , and to imagine as saul imagined , that he saw samuell when he saw satan , who to blind sauls eyes , had put vpon him the forme of an old man lapped in a mantell . and yet nevertheles we grant that from the place of samuell , we may learne thus much : viz. if any person in our age were so sottish , as to seek vnto a witche , to have the body of an archbishop raysed vp ; that satan in this case , by lapping him selfe in an archbishops pall , rochet and square cap , might transforme him selfe to the shape and likenes of thomas beckett , though he be long since dead . as for that which is alleadged out of the prophesie of isaiah , it proveth directly that his garment of sackcloth , was not any proper propheticall garment , but only such an ordinary garment , as whereby in his common and daily attire , his condition of being a prophet , was distinguished from the apparrell of other men , who were no prophetes . for if by the commandment of loosing the sackcloth from his loynes , the lord had meant a proper propheticall mantell or garment , which was only vsuall in the execution of his propheticall function , then might the same well-inough have bene put of , and yet jsaiah not have bene naked , and his buttocks vncovered . besides , if by isaiahs garment , a proper propheticall garment in the exercise of prophesie , and not a speciall ordinary garment , common with other prophets in their daily vse , had bene noted ; then by isaiahs shoes likewise , why should not a proper & propheticall kind of shoes be vnderstood ? and if so , why then by this place might not ministers be appointed , ( whensoever they pray , preache or minister the sacramentes ) to have proper ministeriall shoes or pantofles vpon their feete , aswell as proper ministeriall surplices or copes vpon their backes ? the place out of zacharie , and that argument from iohn baptists apparell , be of like interpretation with that of esai . and that out of zachary , what ells proveth it , but that the false prophets ordinarily did weare some such maner of speciall rough garments , as were after the forme of ordinary garments , worne by the true prophets ? and that those false prophets , for deceiving of the people , by colour of their garments , should have those garments , ( as it were ) plucked over their eares , and no more be suffered by their garmentes , to make their doctrine seeme more holy : seeing they were never sent from god , to bee prophets for the good of his people , but might still have continewed husbandmen or heards men , as not having any true propheticall doctrine , but only making a shew their of by their outward rough garments , as if their garments had bene sufficient to have approved their prophesies ? in like maner as at this day a number of idole ministers , have naught ▪ ells to approve them to be ministers , but only that they weare a large whit surplice with two wide sleeves , and a litle blacke cappe with foure narrowe corners . nay , againe we demand , whether your lordships have read in holy writt , that king david deviding offices to the sonnes of levie , & separating some to be singers , some to be porters , and some to be over the treasures of the house of god , according to the commandement of the lord , by the hands of the prophets samuell , gad and nathan , did appoint any other songsterlike , porterlike or other ministerlike garments , to be worne by these officers in the service of the house of god , then such only as were appointed by the law. and if your lordships can produce no place out of holy writt for the proofe of these questions ; then from the example of celebrating the passover , ministring circumcision , prophesying by the prophets , and from services done by the singers , porters and treasures , without other ministeriall garments then were appointed to be vnder the lawe : we demand what good proofe your lordships can make out of holy writt , that ministers of the gospell may be commanded , not to pray , not to preach , and not to administer the sacraments without ministeriall garments , not appointed by god , but by man in the time of the gospell ? and yet touching certaine holy garments , vsed by the priestes and levites vnder the law , your lordships have not read ( as we suppose ) that either moyses or aaron , did appoint any other holy garments for the priests or levits in their priestly or leviticall offices , then such only as the lord him selfe commanded to be made and worne ; which holy & priestly garments also , you reade that they might not be worne by the priests or levites in the vtter court , but only in the holy place , when they came to minister in the priestes and levites office before the lord. and so from the proportion of the ministery of the priesthood vnder the law , vnto the ministerie of faith vnder the gospell , we question thus : if god the only author of the priesthood vnder the law , were the only author of the priests holy and ministeriall garments , vnder the law , why should not the same god , being the holy author of the ministerie of the gospell , be likewise the only author of ministeriall garments vnder the gospell ? for otherwise how should the ministers perfectly vnderstand , that the wearing of ministeriall garments in the time of the gospell , bee aswell pleasing to the lorde , as were the priests holy garments in the time of the law ? besides , for so much as the priests when they came out of the inner court even to the vtter court to the people , and approched to those things which were for the people , were then commaunded to put of their holy and lynen garments , and to put on their other garments , namely , their wollen garments which they had put of when they entered into the inner court. from whence we againe demande , what reason your lordships can yeald out of holy writt , that the ministers of the gospell when they approche to pray , to preach the word & to administer the sacramēts , which are things for the people vnder the gospell , should put vpon them ministeriall lynen garments ? and not rather from the identitie of reason and equitie of that order , which was given to the priestes vnder the law , challendge a free and liberall vse of their ministerie in their ordinarie garmentes ? we meane such comly and cleanly wollen garmentes , as by the law , vse , or custome of the countrie , wherein they live , may lawfully be worne . where it is written that david had on him a lynen garmēt , as all the levites that bare the arke , & the singers : if your lordships from this place shal vrge , that lynen garments were ordinarily worne by the levites , among the people , when they approched to the services , which were for the people , you shall in this case but wrest the holy scriptures , to an other sense then rightly can be gathered from the same , because the same your sense directly repugneth the aforesaid testimonie of the prophet ezekiell : neither indeed doeth this place any more prove , the ordinarie wearing of lynen garmentes , by the levites among the people , in the vtter courte , then it doeth prove the ordinarie wearing of an ephod by king david , whensoever he came into the temple to worship . the reason then of the levites wearing of lynen garmentes at this tyme , being in the presence of the arke of the covenant of the lord which was now to be remooved from the house of obed edom , and to be caried vpon the shoulders of the sonnes of koath , and to bee attended vpon by other of the levites their brethren , in holy garments , it seemeth playne that this wearing of holy garmentes , in this peculiar service thus performed to the lord , in the presence of the arke , excludeth the wearing of the same garmentes in common services done among the people . besides , that the singers and levites did not at any time minister in their lynen garmentes , among the people , is apparant . for that the proper place of their ministration was before the arke in the inner court ; and this is evident by the scriptures : for it is written , that a heman and asaph and ethan were singers , and that the king left b before the arke of the lords covenant , asaph the chiefe and his brethren to minister continually before the arke , that which was to be done every day , to singe with c instrumentes , and to lift vp their voyce with ioye , and to d prayse the lord , because his mercy endureth for ever : yea and this manner of singing and ministring before the arke in the tabernacle of the congregation did not only continew vntill e salomon had built the house of the lord in ierusalem , but then also , the singers continewed their office according to their custome for it is written thus . and the f levites the singers of all sortes , as of asaph , of heman , and ieduthun , and of their sonns , and of their brethren being clad in fyne lynen , stood with cymbales and with vyolles , and harpes , at the east end of the altar , and with them an hundred and twentye priestes , blowinge which trumpettes , vnles then your lordships be able to proue by holy wrytt , that the inner courte , or holy place , wherein the altar stood , was not a place separated for the preistes , & levites alone , but that the people as well , as the priestes and levites , came into the same place , to worshipp before the arke , wee may bouldly ( as wee thinke ) affirme that you shall never be able to prove , that the priestes or levites vnder the law , did at any tyme weare any ministerial garments , when they approched into their vtter court , to the people , to doe services for the people . among the reasons ( why the priestes vnder the law were commanded to put on their lynen garmentes when they ministred in the sanctuarie and at the table ) one reason among other is rendered to bee this : namely , for that the garmentes were holy garmentes , as having from the god of holynes an holy institution . the reason also why the priestes were commaunded to put of their lynen garmentes , and to put on other wollen garmentes , when they approched to those thinges which were for the people , is this : viz. for that they should not sanctifie the people with their garmentes : from which two reasons , we question thus : first , seeing vnder the ministerie of the gospell , the ministers therof , have neither holy place , nor inner court , separated from the people ; neither any garmentes , by any holy institution , appointed by the name of holy garmentes to minister in ; we demaund , what authoritie your lordships can alleadge out of holy writt , that it should not bee as comely and as decent a thinge , for the ministers of the gospell , to approche vnto prayer , preaching the worde , and administring the sacramentes ( which are things for the people vnder the gospell ) without any ministeriall garmentes devised , and instituted only by man : as it was for the priestes to approch vnto the like things , which were for the people vnder the law , without those holy garmentes , which were ordayned by god ? secondly , the reason of the prohibition of the priestes putting on their holy and priestly garmentes , when they approched into the vtter court to those things which were for the people : being this : namelie , that they should not sanctifie the people with their garmentes ; wee demaunde with what reason deduced from holy writt , you can impugne this position , viz. that our saviour christ ( to preserve the equitie and integritie of that prohibition , aswell in the tyme of the gospell , as in the tyme of the law , did not institute any proper ministeriall garmentes , for the apostles , evangelistes , prophetes , doers of myracles , or teachers , to exercise anie their ministeriall function in , least the people putting an opinion of holynes in their garmentes , might thinke the doing of myracles , preaching the worde , prophecying , or ministring the sacramentes , to be sanctified by their garmentes ? and therefore from the manner of preaching the worde , administring baptisme , celebrating the lordes supper , doing myracles , and praying by the apostles , evangelistes , prophetes , &c. without any proper ministeriall garmentes : we question thus : in asmuch as iohn baptist did both crye in the wildernes , and baptise in iorden , having vpon him none other proper ministeriall garmentes , but onely his ordinarie garment , of camells hayre , with a girdle of a skinne about his loynes : and seeing the apostles did neither preache the worde , nor administer the sacramentes , nor doe myracles , amonge the people , in any other garmentes , then in their vsuall and ordinarie garmentes . and besides , seeing the apostles , did not institute or commaunde any proper ministeriall garmentes for their successors , namely for bishoppes , pastours and teachers to minister in : seeing ( we say ) these things can not be prooved out of holy writt to be otherwise , our desire is to be satisfied from your lordships , by some holy rule of faith , why bishops , pastors , and teachers , so long after the apostles tymes , should be commaunded , to weare any other forme or manner of garmentes in their holy ministrations , then such their ordinarie and vsuall garmentes , ( being comelie and cleanly garmentes ) as by custome , or law of the countrey , they vsually weare . for if all ordinarie garmentes be sanctified a like , to minister , and people , by the worde of god and prayer , as all ordinarie meates and drinkes be , we demand , what reason your lordships can alleadge out of holy writt , that the publike service , accomplished by the minister , in his ordinarie apparell , should not be as acceptable to the lord , as is the publique service performed by the people , in their ordinarie garmentes . and if your lordships can affoord vs no reason out of holy writt , why offering vp of prayers , preaching the worde , or administring the sacramentes , should be lesse acceptable to the lord , when the same are performed in an ordinarie garment , and not in a proper ministeriall garment : we then demaunde , whether your lordships by any rule of holy writ , can prove vnto vs , that the worde preached , sacraments administred , and prayers offered vp in a proper ministerial , rather then in an ordinary garment , can be of more efficacie , profit or edification vnto men ? for as the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withall , so must all things which are done in the church , bee done to the vse , benefite and profite of the church : vnto these two latter questions , if your lordships shall answere , that the ministration of the worde and sacramentes , can not be proved by holy writ , to bee in it owne nature , either more acceptable to the lord , or of more efficacie , profite and edification vnto men , when the same is accomplished by a minister , wearing only his ordinarie garment : and yet notwithstanding shall tell vs , that the not wearinge of a proper ministeriall garment in the service of prayer , preaching the worde , and ministring the sacraments , may be both displeasing to god , & hurtful to the people , vpon circumstance & contempt of the churches , or magistrates commaund : then we replie and affirme , that you begge the thing in question , driving vs ▪ backe agayne , to seeke your resolution of that doubt , which we moved above , in the second principall demand : for vnlesse the church and sovereigne christian magistrate , be inabled by holy writt to commaund a proper ministerial garment vnder the gospell , the not wearing of such a proper ministeriall garment , commaunded by the magistrate , or by the church , can be neither an offence to god , nor hurtfull to the people . besides if neither the church nor magistrate , have any certaine rule out of holy writt , for the resolution of faith , in commanding a proper ministeriall garment ; then lyeth the same ministeriall garment vnder a iust suspition of abomination , as being a thing invented by man : and then also how should a minister beeing bound to take for his marke the only will of god , as it is manifested & opened vnto him in the word , be excusable in foro conscientiae , if in the execution of his ministerie , he may fashion him selfe to the invention of man ? but the preaching of the worde of god , is of greater moment and importance , then that the same should be left of for the not vsing of a proper ministeriall garment . that is true indeed ( say wee ) if a minister by the vse of such a garment should not sinne ? but that a minister not fully perswaded in his minde of the lawfull vse of a proper ministeriall garment , may weare it doubtingly , and so sinne , to the end he may preache the worde : we doubte greatly whether your lordships bee able to prove this out of holy writt & of this we pray your resolutions ? for how should a man doe evill that good may come thereby , when as the scripture teacheth vs , that his damnation is iust , that so doeth ? the not preaching of the word then , being no sinne in a minister , when for the keeping of a good cōscience , in not vsing a proper ministeriall garment , he is commanded by a superiour power not to preach the word ; we demand herevpon , whether your lordships sinne not rather in pressing , then the minister in refusing this kinde of ministeriall garment . and seeing wee are fallen by occasion vpon this comparison of preaching the worde , and wearing a proper ministeriall garment , we pray your lordships patiently to heare , and quietly to answere our demandes ? our demand then , is whether in your iudgements , the preaching of the word be not in it owne nature more precious , more needfull and more profitable for the people , then can bee the wearing of a proper ministeriall garment ? if your lordships should preferre the wearing of such a ministeriall garment to the preaching of the worde , in this case , if we should hould our peace , the very stones might cry out shame vpon our faces ; for we are taught out of holy writt , that marie was commended before martha , for that shee sitting at the feete of iesus to heare him preach the word , had chosen the better parte , even one thing that was necessary , and which might not be taken from her . if your lordships answere ( as the trueth is ) that the preaching of the word , is more precious , needfull and profitable for the church , then is the wearing of a proper ministeriall garment ; then wee demand why grave , learned and godly preachers , whom the king him selfe confesseth to love and to honor , have bene put to the worse , commanded to silence , suspended & excommunicated for the not wearing of such a ministeriall garment , when as notwithstanding light , lascivious , and vnlearned ministers no-preachers , ( if so be they have worne a proper ministeriall garment ) have bene suffered quietly to enioy their functions , and their benefices ? but all preachers were never silenced , only certaine preachers not submitting them selves to the wearing of a ministeriall garment according to the orders and lawes of the church are displaced . well bee it so ? what other thing doeth this argue , but that the not wearing of a ministerall garment , is reputed to bee a sinne more haynous then is the not preaching of the word ? but there are a multitude of ministers who be not able to preach the worde ; whereas there is not one preacher but he is able to put on a ministeriall garment : what then ? did ever any preacher ( we praye you ) when hee was made a minister , bind him selfe by a solemne vowe to weare a ministeriall garment ? no. and did not every minister when he was made a minister , binde him selfe by a solemne vowe to preache the worde ? yea : and how then cometh it to passe , ( vnlesse the wearing of a ministeriall garment , bee reputed more precious then is the preaching of the worde ) that the not wearing of the one by a preacher , and the not preaching of the other by a minister , should bee offences , in degree of peyne vnmatchable ? especially when as the not preaching is a breache of the ordinance of god , and the not wearing of a ministeriall garment , but a transgression of the lawe of man ? when any husbandman shall have sowen cleane and pure wheate in his field , if the envious man shall sowe tares , in this case , if the husbandman plucke vp the wheate , and let the tares growe , would you commend his husbandrie ? but your lordships will sow the fieldes with purer wheate , and provide men of softer spirits , lesse novelous , better affected to the state , and of more discretion and maturitie of iudgement . indeed if it may please your lordships , this is soone saide ; but by your leaves , the thing is not so sone done ; yea and besides we demand what good securitie your lordships can give vnto the king and state in this case ? for in a matter of so great danger , as is the perill of the soules of the kinges subiectes , it were no good saftie ( in our opinion , ) to trust your bare wordes for the time to come ; when as in time past vpon pretence of the wante of able & preaching ministers , ye have thought it fitt , rather then to have none at all , to reteyne a number of vnpreaching ministers , knowne to bee no better then idle beastes and flow bellies . and if your lordships already have such a sufficient number of learned , sober , wise and softe spirited preachers , to bee disposed vpon vacant benefices at your commaunde , as that you bee able to furnishe the churches of all those ministers , whom you intend to deprive , for not conformitie vpon an instant : wee praye your lordshippes to resolve the kinge what charitie you have carryed towarde his people in time past , when you have collated ( for a great parte ) the benifices of your owne giftes , either vpon no preachers , or at leastwise vpon strawberie preachers ; but if your lordshippes intende hereafter to sende foorth preachers , that shall yeeld beryes , not once in the yeare onely , but at the least strawe once every moneth ; then wee demande ? what thankes you would con̄ your stewardes , in case they should provide no better cookes for the dressing of your dyners , then such onely , as vnder one whole monethes space , could not dispatch the roasting of an egge , or frying of a smelt ? if your lordships thinke that the preaching ministers , not yealding to the christian magistrates authoritie , in the not vsing of this ministeriall ( falsly by you so called indifferent ) apparell , by such their disobedience , may bee an example vnto the people , of like disobedience in other matters : then wee demande , whether your lordshippes carry not a testimonie in your owne consciences , that their abstayning from the vse of ministeriall apparrell , proceede not rather from an honest and good hearte , to the obedience of god , then of any evill affection conceyved against the authoritie of the magistrate ? for before the kingdome of england was lawfully invested in the royal person of our soveraine lord king iames , did not sundry of them abide many sharpe reproches and bitter tauntes , for their scotizing , and defending the single forme of church policie , vpheld by the kings authoritie in the realme of scotland ? yea and doe not the same ministers now at this day hartily and devoutly pray , for the life and prosperitie of the king , the queene , the noble yong prince , and all other the kings royall progenie ? yea and excepting this one point of their not conformitie vnto the ceremonies ( wherein they alleadge for them selves , the conscience of the vnlawfulnes and inconvenience of the said ceremonies ) are they not knowne to be men worthy to be respected as the ministers of christ ? men of good reputation for learning ? of honest conversation ? and peaceable among their neighbours ? and men very obedient ( this one thing excepted ) to all authoritie ? by whose good doctrine also , and example of life , the magistrates in every countie have found it more easie to continew the common people in the dewties of their subiection , and loyaltie to the supreme power ? nay , which is more at this very instant , doe not they extraordinarily declare and testifie their love , their loyaltie and their fidelitie vnto the king , when by their loanes they supply the kings want , though in the meane time they them selves want , and be driven to borrow to supply their owne necessities ? if then in these great and waightie things , appertaining to the dignitie of the kings crowne , they carefully and holily approve thē selves to be both teachers & followers of the apostles doctrine , would they not aswell ( trow you ) by the wearing of a ministeriall garment , subiect their neckes to the kings authoritie , if by a greater band of faith & obedience to the most high and mightie god , they were not drawne to the not wearing thereof ? touching the reason yealded by some , that ministeriall apparell , is to distinguish the minister from other men : it seemeth vnto vs to be a reason altogether without reason : for albeit the outward forme of a ministers ordinary apparell may lawfully and expediently differ from the outward fashion of apparell common to other men , and so the ministers person by his apparell may be knowne vnto all such as know him not by face : neverthelesse it is void of all sense , that his ministeriall apparell , in the publike service of that church , whereof he is a minister , should bee an inseparable note , to distinguish his person , from the persons of every of his people : for sithence by name , by face , by office , by place , by voice , yea by ordinary apparrell also , every minister is , or ought to be known vnto his people , what a kind of foundnesse is it , to imagine that a minister can better be knowne by wearing of a ministeriall garment , then by the dewe execution of his ministeriall function . concerning the reason of decencie and comlines vrged by some , for the vse of a white ministeriall garment , in the ministerie of the gospell , because the same cometh more aptly to bee discussed in the question following , we will not trouble your lordships at this time with any other matter , about the two first demandes : and therefore we will proceede to the thirde ; which for your lordships better remembrance , we hold it not amisse to repeate againe . if it bee lawfull for a soveraine magistrate , by authoritie of holy writt , to ordeine and appropriate a ministeriall garment , for the ministers of the gospell , then we demand , whether by authoritie of holy writt , he may ordayne and appropriate such a ministeriall garment ▪ as in matter , forme and specie differeth not from that ministeriall garment , which by the high priest & chiefe prince of idolatry , hath bene , and still is ordeyned and appropriated to be a necessary priestly garment , for his idolatrous priests , in their idoll service ? and to the end your lordships may perceave our demands to bee made cōscionably & not humorously , or novelously , we have thought necessary to lay downe and annex certaine principles or canons out of holy writ , whervpon our demands and reasons are grounded , which grounds and reasons also , we extend against crossing in baptisme , and kneeling in the acte of receving the communion . the first ground . the graven images of their gods , shall ye burne with fire , and covet not the silver and gold that is on them , nor take it to thee , least thou be snared therewith , for it is an abhomination . bring not therefore abhomination into thine house , least thou bee accursed like it , but vtterly abhorre it , and counte it most abhominable , for it is accursed . there shall cleave nothing of the damned thing to thine hands ; all they that make any image are vanitie , and their delectable things shall nothing profite . and shall polute the covering of the images of silver , and the riche ornaments of gold , and cast them away , as a menstruous cloth , and thou shalt say vnto it , get thee hence . neither be ye idolaters , as some of them were . babes keepe your selves from idoles . from these grounds of the law , the prophets , and the gospell , wee demand whether your lordships against these , can oppose any other rules of holy writt , to prove that any christian magistrate , christian minister , or christian people may be blamelesse and without fault , in foro conscientiae , if in the publike and outward worship of god , either he shall command , or they shall vse , any the relickes , monuments or memorialls , any the delectable , vaine , and vnprofitable things , some times , or now apperteyning to the idolatrous sacrifice of that great and knowne idole , the popish masse . for if every commandement of the first table of the law , be a way , and bee a path out of the which no christian ought to turne a side , either to the right hand , or to the left ; but in the which every christian is bound aswell in the time of the gospell , as every israelite was bound in the time of the lawe to walke ; then not onely that great idoll of the popish masse it selfe , sett vp and worshipped in the time of the gospell ; but then also , all relickes , monuments , memorialls and delectable things with their accessaries , appendices , and appurtinances , as a menstrous cloth , ought to be cast away , and to bee bidden get ye hence ; especially we say in the publike service and worship of the true god. for by how much more , the glorie of the sonne , who spake from heaven , doeth farre excell the honour of a servant , which spake on earth , by so much the more ought that idoll & that idolatrie , which is set vp and committed in the time of the gospell , be esteemed more vile and detestable , then was that idoll and that idolatrie set vp and committed in the time of the law . the reasons of the prohibition of coveting , and of taking any the images , their coverings , their ornaments ▪ their golde and their silver , vnder the law were in number foure : namely : first they were an abhomination to the lord. then : a feare of the peoples being snared . thirdly , a threat of being accursed : and lastly , for that they were vaine , and could nothing profite . if then that great idoll of the popish masse , with all the copes , vestiments , surplices , crosses , kneelings , candles and other memorialls and delectable things , invented for the adorning and pompe thereof , be abhominable and accursed in the sight of god , bee also vaine and can nothing profit men : if also the magistrate , the ministers and people beleeving the gospel , may be snared , and shal be accursed after the maner of the israelites , if so be without warrant from holy writt , they shall vse these things in the worship of god ; we demand , whether from the doctrine of the law , the prophets , and the gospell , we may not conclude thus : with whatsoever things , either magistrate , minister , or people may be snared , and for the vse of whatsoever things they may be accursed , those things may not lawfully be commanded or vsed in the publike worship of god. but aswell the magistrate as the ministers and people may then be snared , and shal be accursed with , and for the command and vse of copes , surplices , crosses , &c. when in the publike worship of god , they be commanded and vsed without warrant of his word : therefore copes , surplices , crosses , &c. may not be commanded nor vsed in the publike worship of god , without warrant of his word . if your lordships denie the assumpt ; and answere , that copes , surplices , crosses , &c. commanded and vsed for the adorning , and bewtifying of that great idoll the masse , bee in their owne nature thinges indifferent , and none other otherwise can be accursed or be a snare to any christian magistrate , minister or people , then as they bee imployed to the vse and service of that idoll ; and in this regarde , their free and liberall vse is no more now forbidden , then is the eating of meates sacrificed vnto idolls , and that therefore all feare of being snared and accursed , doeth cease , because wee have free libertie by the word for the eating of meates sacrificed vnto idolls ; then herevnto wee replie , that your answere is very vnsufficient and vncertaine , and without any strength of reason , drawne from holie writt . for though wee grant that nothing is vncleane of it selfe , and that we ought not to accompt that polluted , which god hath purified : neverthelesse we pray your lordships to resolve vs by holy writt , that god hath by his worde aswell purified copes , surplices , crosses , &c. for the outward vse of his publike worship , as by his word hee hath purified meates sacrificed vnto idols , for the private vse of mans life . when peter had fastened his eyes vpon the sheete , let downe from heaven by the foure corners , he cōsidered and saw foure footed beasts of the earth , and wilde beasts , and creeping things , and foules of the heaven , which were all the good creatures of god , and which also in the beginning were created for the foode of man : only for a time while israell was vnder the schoolmaistership of the lawe , certayne of these creatures were forbidden to be eaten , not because they were in their owne nature evill , or vncleane , but only because they were made vncleane for a time , by prohibition : and therefore when the fulnesse of time was come , and that christ the ende of the lawe , was rysen from the dead , the law of not eating meates forbidden ceased : and by letting downe the sheete , and commandement given to peter , to slay and to eate , peter was assured that all those meates were restored to their primarie vse , integritie , and puritie . and therefore these creatures being in their owne originall nature good ; and in the beginning sanctified by the lord , to the vse of mans life , howsoever the idolaters prophanely & abusively did sacrifice them vnto their idoles , yet could those idoles never so pullute them by their abuse , as that they might vtterly take away the good and profitable vse , for the which they were first created . but that copes , surplices , crosses , candles , and other memorialls and delectable things , authorised by that man of sinne , for the pompous service of his great idoll , the masse , bee of the nature of meates , or of the nature of gold and silver , ( howsoever sacrificed vnto idolls ) we deny . for first : meates , gold and silver in their owne nature , were by creation ( as earst was saide ) good , and to the ende wherevnto they were created ever blessed of god , and never accursed ; whereas on the other side , no reliques , monuments , or memorials of any idolatrie , were ever blessed , but ever accursed . secondly , they were never in their first originall good or profitable , no not for that vse wherevpon they were imployed : for as the idole it selfe , is vayne , vnprofitable , polluted and abhominable , yea nothing in respect of that thing which it representeth , even so also bee all the accessories and appurtenances thereof , damned and execrable . thirdly , these reliques , monumentes and memorialls of idolatrie , being not the workes of god , created in the beginning for the vse of man , but the workes of mens handes , applied to the service of an idol , are not by the prohibition of god , vncleane , and polluted only for a tyme , as certeyne meates were , but are evermore by a perpetuall decree , things damned and accursed for the vse of any service vnto god : and therefore howsoever ( as meates are vsually solde in the shambles ) they may be sold in a spinsters , or in an embrotherers shopp , and may be vsed by man , to some benefite of this life : yet that they may be translated from the service of an idol , to the worship of the trew god , without warrant of being sanctified to that vse , by the worde of god , or that the ministers and people professing the gospell , may as intyrely & freely vse and receive them in the outward worship of the trewe god , as the popish priestes and people did in the service of their great idoll the masse ; we deny : and whether you be able to prooue the contrarie out of holy writ , we demaund your resolutions ? and thus much for confirmation of the assumption of our former request : it followeth that we demaund , whether your lordships by anie rule out of holy writ , be able to repugne these conclusions following . first . all idolls with all their ornamentes , and all their appurtenances , by the doctrine of holy scriptures , as a menstruous cloth , are to be cast away and to be bidden get you hence : but the popish masse is an idoll , and all the copes , surplices , crosses , candles , &c. have bene , and yet be , ornamentes and appurtenances vnto that idole of the popish masse : therefore the popish masse , and all copes , surplices , crosses , candles , &c. as a menstruous cloth are to be cast away , and to be bidden gett you hence . secōdly . whatsoever hath bene first invented by man , and afterward appropried by authoritie of the great whore , to be a note , token , badge or ensigne vnto all her lovers , in the acte of her fornication , the same ought not to be any note , token , badge , or ensigne vnto the spouse of christ , or any her lovers , in the acte of the outward worship of the true god. but all copes , surplices , crossings have bene first invēted by man , & appropried by authoritie of the great whore , to be notes , tokens , badges , and ensignes vnto all her lovers in the acte of her fornication : therefore no copes , surplices , crosses , &c. ought to be any badge , token or ensigne , to the spouse of christ , or any her lovers , in the acte of the worship of the true god. if your lordships deny the truth of the first propositiō of the first argument to be proved by those places before quoted out of the law , the prophetes and apostles , then we pray your lordships to yeeld vs some reason , from other places of holy writt , for the confirmation of such your negation ? for vnto vs the letter of the scriptures , seeme to be very direct & plaine to the purpose , for the which we have alleadged them : if your lordships deny the consequence of the first proposition , of the second argument , and affirme that the spouse of christ , and her lovers may lawfully weare in the outward acte of the worship of the true god , the notes , tokens , badges and ensignes , commanded by the great whore to be worne in the acte of her fornication ; then we demand , by what places of holy writ your lordships be able to prove this your affirmation ? in the meane time give vs leave , according to the measure of our skill , to discharge the assum●t : of the first argument , from such error , as happily at the first view may seeme in your opinions , to bee conteyned therein . if then your lordships shall challenge the assumpt : of the first argument , either of particularitie , or ambiguitie of the wordes ( copes , surplices , crosses , &c. ) for that all copes , surplices , crosses , &c. have not bene , ●e now be ornamentes , and appurtenances vnto that great idoll of the masse , because some copes , surplices , crosses , &c. be ornamentes and solemnites for the administration of baptisme , celebration of the lords supper , and other divine services ; then for the adnulling aswell of your lordships distinction , as for the overthrow of all , both new and ould copes , surplices , crosses , &c. to be vsed by the spouse , and her lovers , in the acte of the worship of the true god , wee propound vnto your lordships these groundes of holy writt following , wherevnto also we demaund your resolutions ? beware least thou be taken in a snare after them after that they bee destroyed before thee , & least thou aske after their gods , saying , how did these nations serve their gods , that i may do so likewise , thou shalt not do so vnto the lord thy god. ye are the children of the lord your god , you shall not cut your selves nor make you any baldnes betweene your eyes for the dead : for thou art an holy people , vnto the lord thy god , and the lord hath chosen thee to be a precious people vnto him selfe , above all the people that are vpon the earth . what fellowship hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnes ? what communion hath light with darknes ? what concord hath christ with beliall , or what parte hath the beleever with the infidell ? and what agreement hath the temple of god , with idolls ? come i will shewe thee the damnation of the great whore , that fitteth vpon many waters ; with whom have committed fornication the kings of the earth , and the inhabitants of the earth are drunken with the wine of her fornication . and i sawe seates , and i sawe the soules of them that were dead for the witnes of iesus , and for the word of god , and which did not worship the beast , neither his image , neither had taken his marke vpon their forheads , or on their handes . from these grounds of holy writ , taken out of the law , we demand , whether the worship of every idoll , and false god , or not , rather every superstitious , and false worship of the true god bee forbidden ? and whether this superstitious and false worship of the trew god , bee not intended to be that maner , forme and fashion of worship , both wholy and in parte , which the gentiles vsed in the worship of their idolles ? for there being a commaundement given before vnto the children of israell , for the burning of the images , and of the vtter destruction of all the idolles of the cananites : it is by these scriptures commaunded ( after these idoles were destroyed , and the images burnt ) that the children of israell should not so much as once hearken after , or inquire ; how those nations served their gods , least they should be taken in a snare , to doe so , and likewise vnto the lord their god , as the nations did vnto their idoles : and thus much also doth that argument , drawen from the doctrine of the gospell enforce , of not having felowship , concord , parte , or agreement with beliall ; or with an idoll : of the not taking of the marke of the beast in their handes , or in their foreheads ; and therefore we again demand , whether the church ( falsly so called ) of rome , be not this great whore , with whom the kings of the earth have cōmitted fornication ? and whether shee also be not from the earth , and of this world ? whether the beautie of this great whore stand not in outwarde pompe of apparell , and outward shewes , after the manner of a strumpett ? whether this outward pompe of apparell and shewes of impudency consist not partly in copes , surplices , crosses , and such like trashe ? and whether these copes , surplices , crosses , &c. be not designed by that whore , to be the proper and peculiar cognizances , tokens , badges and ensignes of her lovers , cōmitting fornication with her great idoll the breaden god ? if your lordships can iustly deny our demaunds , in the affirmative to be true : we then agayne demaund ; if the bryde of the lambe , being a pure virgine , shall at any tyme be apparelled , in the acte of the service of her beloved , like to the minnions wayting vppon the great whore , in the acte of her fornications : wee demaunde ( wee saye ) whether the bryde ( in this case ) can be precious and amiable in the eyes of the bridegrome ? can be said to have no concord with beliall ? no parte with an infidell ? no agreement with an idoll ? can bee saide , not to take vpon her hande , vpon her forehead , or vpon her backe , the marke of the beast ? can be sayd , not to doe so , and lykwise to the brydgrome , as the mynions of the whore , doe to their idole ? or not to doe so , and lykewise , to god , as the papists doe to the devill ? nay , if the church of england herself alone ; bee not the bryde , but one of the maydes of the bride , and if also shee professe hir self , to be the first of the three , rather then the last , of the the thirty worthyes and honorable virgins ; we demand what holy reason should move this maide of england , still to fashion her necklaces , her bracelets , hir frontlets , hir cheynes , hir iewels , hir lynen apornes , hir gaudie kirtles , like to those which the most famous strumpett , that ever was , ( for pompous ostentation and braverie ) daily vseth and putteth on , especially sithence all hir other fellow maides , in other countries attending vpon the bride with most solemne vowes and obtestations , and with a most holy disdayne and indignation have abandoned and cast away , as a menstruous cloth , what attire soever hath bene , or yet is proper , to the minions of that great whore ? if your lordships answere that the maide of englande , being perfectly instructed from the bridegroms voice , ( that no cope , surplice or crosse is vncleane of it selfe , ) may command hir damsels , to attyre and fashion their liveries , colours and badges , like to those which the minions & louers of the great whore , cōmonly deck them selves withall : if so be hir commandement tend not , that hir damsells should be defiled or bee druncken with the wine of the fornication of the great whore , but only that they should be humbled at the feete of the christian magistrate , whom the bridgrome hath armed with power , to be a protector and a nursing father of all the liberties and franchises of the bride , and of hir maides : if your lordships ( we say ) to dischardge the maide of england , in foro conscientiae , shall answere thus and thus : then because the christian magistrate is him selfe not the bridgrome ; but one of the children of the bride chamber , & a friend of the bridegromes ; and for this cause , & in this respect , can not rightly command the maide of englande to be appareled otherwise in the service of the bridegrome , then as the bridegrome hath lycensed the magistrate to command ; wee then demand , by what rule of holy writt , your lordships can prove , that the christian magistrate hath commission from the bridegrome , to command the maide of england at all seasons , and in all the courts of his aboade , to waite and to attend , to present , and to put vp hir requests , hir prayers , and hir services , in such suite and change of rayment , as is common with that of the minions of the great whore ? for vnlesse the christian magistrate be armed with power from the bridegrome , to chardge the maide of england to be thus attired , your lordships can not be ignorant , but that aswell the nursing father in commanding , as the nurse child in obeying , shall sinne against the bridgrome . for howsoever it may bee lawfull for the christian magistrate to command or forbidde the vse , or not vse of every kinde of creature , which in it owne nature , by vertue of creation , is good , and therefore only called indifferent , because indifferently at the moderate pleasure of every man , the same with prayer and thanksgiving , may be vsed , or refused , for the vse of this life without offence to god ; nevertheles we greatly stand in doubt , whether the christian magistrates authoritie reach so farr as to command that the worke of mans hands be vsed in the outward worship of the true god , which for the pollution and prophanation thereof in the service of an idoll , is become for the service of the true god , abhominable and damned . nay ; if hezekiah king of iudah , be commended in holy writt , for doing vprightly in the sight of the lord , when he brake in pieces the brasen serpēt , & called it a piece of brasse , when the children of israell , by burning incense to it , abused it to idolatrie , notwitstanding the same were first set vp by moyses , at the commandement of god : how much more ought christian magistrates to destroy and to breake in pieces all maner workes of mens handes , never commanded in holy writt , either for the service of god , or for the profite of his people ? but hezekiah might have done well and vprightly also , if so be he had still reserved the serpent , as a memoriall of the miracles wrought by the looking vpon it , though for the abuse of burning incense before it , he had not broken the same in pieces . but wee beseech your lordships to informe vs rightly out of holy writt , whether this your answere in the sight of the lord , be vpright , yea or no ? first , after the peoples heartes were once turned aside , by burning incense to the serpent , it was not in the power of hezekiah to knowe , whether the peoples hearts would have bene againe vpright in the memoriall of the miracles , yea or no ? and as for the restitution of the serpent , to that integritie of doing miracles , after the peoples departure out of the wildernesse , when they were no more stunge by serpents , that to doe , was much lesse in the power of hezekiah : besides , because by the doctrine of holy writt , we be taught , not only that the forbidding of one thing , includeth a commandement of the contrary , and that the commandement of one thing inforceth a forbidding of the contrary ; but also that aswell the omission of a dewtie required , as the commission of a thing prohibited , is an offence to god : we pray your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ ; whether the holy ghost , commending the vprightnes of hezekiah , aswel for breaking to pieces the brasen serpent , as in taking away the high places , and breaking the images and cutting down the groves , doe not instruct vs that he was to have bene discommended , in case he had let the serpent stood vnbroken down , though he had cut downe the groves , broken the images , and taken away the high places ? for in our iudgments by the doctrine aforesaid , founded vpon holy writt , the breaking of the serpent , being reckoned as a part of his vprightnes , and for the which he is commended , the not breaking thereof , must needes have bene as an vnvpright and as discommendable a thing , as the not cutting downe of the groves , the not breaking the images , and the not taking away the high places . but such copes , surplices , crosses , &c. as heretofore have bene worne , and vsed at , & for idols service , are not eadem numero with ours : for all the old popish copes , surplices , &c. be long since out of date , and we will have all spicke and span new . yea be it so , yet if the fashion and workmanship of their old , be the true paterns of our new , how shall not ours be like vnto theirs ? king ahaz though hee sent not the very same altar which hee saw at damascus , but the paterne and the fashion of it , and all the workemanshippe thereof to vriah the priest , yet doeth the holy storie witnesse , that hee trespassed , and did evill , and commendeth hezekiah , that in the first yeare and first moneth of his reigne , hee commanded the levites to cary forth the filthinesse out of the temple , and all the vncleanenes that they found in the temple of the lorde , brought in by their fathers . in the second booke of the kings , the holy ghost testifying what evill hoshea the sonne of elah king of israell & his fathers had done , in the sight of the lord , sheweth vs , that they followed vanitie , and became vaine , and followed the heathen , that were round about them ; concerning whom the lord hath charged them , that they should not doe like them . and againe that they walked according to the fashion of the heathen ; and againe that they burned incense in the high places as did the heathen . and againe , that they would not obey , but hardened their neckes , like to the neckes of their fathers : and againe , that they obeyed not , but did after their old custome ? yea and the lorde by the mouth of abijah king of iudah reproved ieroboam to his face , not for that he had made priests of other countries , but that he had made him priests , like the people of other countries . but by your patience , sirs , these cases be not alike , for there was an expresse commandement in the law , that there should be but one altar , the paterne also whereof , was given to moyses in the holy mount , whereas we be not expresly forbidden in the gospell to weare copes , surplices , or to make crosses . but by your lordships favour ( say we ) the cases ( notwithstanding this your exception ) be a like : for the bride ( say we ) of the lambe ; by the doctrine of the gospell , is aswell expresly taught and bound as the israelites were , to observe and keepe the second commandment of the law ; yea shee is commanded not to fashion hir self like to this world ; not to weare the liverye of the great whore : not to marke hir selfe in the hand or in the forehead , with the marke of the beast : not to have any fellowship , concord , part or agreement with beliall , with an infidell , or with an idoll . if then the great whore doe still raigne , though not over vs ; if the beast doe still rage , though his hornes push not at vs ; if beliall be still worshipped , though not by vs : and if also this beliall , and this beast , vaunt him selfe , and this great whore glory and decke hir selfe in , and with this kind of apparelling , and this maner of crossing , we humbly pray your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ , whether amōg our priests , whosoever shall come to praye , to preach , or to administer the sacraments , with a cope , with a surplice , with a taper , with a crosse , or with a shaven crowne , like to the copes , surplices , tapers , crosses and shaven crownes , of those priestes which are priestes to them which are no gods , whether such our priestes ( wee saye ) borrowing this attyre from the great whore , and vsing the same in the service of the true god ; doe not follow vanitie and become vaine , and follow the popish idolaters about vs , concerning whom , the lord hath forbidden we should not doe like them , neither walke according to their fashion , and after their old custome , niether to have any part , fellowship , communion , concord , or agreement with them ? what sirs ? would you then have vs , to have no manner of agreement , concord , or communion , with the papistes with the beast , or with the great whore ? what , no thing at all ? why then sirs , you would belike have vs pull downe our churches , our oratories and our chappell 's ? though our desire be to keepe our selves from all the defilements and pollutions of that romish strumpett , yet doe wee dislike the pullinge downe of churches , &c. for we knowe and are fully perswaded , by rules of holy writt , that wee may lawfullie vse , not onlie churches , oratories and chappell 's : but also that we may have seates in churches ; pulpits in churches ; fonts in churches ; tables together with faire lynen table clothes , to cover these tables in churches ; bells , and ropes for bells ▪ in churches ; yea and besides that , reading , praying , preaching , administring of sacraments , singing , yea and ringing too : are thinges which lawfully may bee performed by vs in churches , because all these and every of these thinges being of some holy , naturall , necessarie , profitable , comely or good , orderly vse for the people , in , for , and toward the service of god , by some generall rule of holy writt , be approved , and therefore by the same commanded , and sanctified for our vse . but as for copes , surplices , crosses , candles at noone dayes , and such like superstitious ornaments , rites and ceremonies , because there is neither holynes , neither nature , neither necessitie , neither vtilitie , neither decencie , neither any good order that require the same ; nay , because what soever good order , decencie , vtilitie , necessitie , nature , or holines can require , may without those ornaments , rites , and ceremonies , be fully accomplished ; we affirme that they ought as a menstruous cloth be cast away , and to be bidden , get ye hence . why , sirs ? do you approve of a white lynen table-cloth to cover the communion table , and do you disallow a white lynen surplice ? what ? is it not as comely a thing , and as good an order , we pray you , for the minister at the communion table , to stand in a fyne , large , and cleane lynen surplice , as it is a thing decent and orderly , for the communion table , to be overspread with a fine and cleane lynen table-cloth ? vntill your lordships shall be able to prove vnto vs , either out of holy writt , or by some good reason , that it is , as vndecent a thing for your pages , to wayte and to attend vpon your trēchers and vpon your cuppes , without wearing whit lynen surplices , as it is a slovenly manner , for any kinde of persons to sit downe , to eate , and to drinke , at the table , without having layd before them a whit lynen table-cloth , or napkin ; we are bould to affirme , that there is great oddes , betweene the decent vse of a white lynen table-cloth , for the communion table , and betweene the vse of a white surplice , for the back of a minister . indeed , if it were as comely and as orderly a thing , for all sortes of people , aswell woemen , as men , to weare surplices vpon their vpper garmentes , when they come to the lords table , as it is a decent and orderly manner for all men and woemen , whensoever they sit downe to eate , and to drink , to have their tables covered , with fayre lynen table-clothes ; we would not then much stand with your lordships , that the wearing of a surplice , by a minister , at the communion table , might be as decent , and as orderly a thing , as is the covering of the communion table , with a fayre lynen table-cloth : but the first being a thinge vndecent , we denye the second to be decent : and yet were the latter graunted to be decent , what advantage , we pray your lordships , doth this argument of comparison ( from a white lynen table-cloth , to a whit lynen surplice ) bring for the vse of a silken , embrodered , & yellow glittering cope ? are the heartes of the priestes in cathedrall and collegiat churches , so golden , as they must signifie their goldē hearts , by their golden garmentes ? hic tacuere phriges , auro sua somnia caelant : well , by your patience ( sirs ) though wee have not much to saye for maintenance and defence of our copes , which are to be vsed onely in our cathedrall and great churches , and not in your parochiall churches , yet we pray you to carry a better estimation of the wearing of surplices , by your ministers , then you doe of the wearing of surplices , by the popish priests : because the fountayne from whence ours sprange , and the end wherevnto ours tende and are applyed , bee much every way different from theirs . why then give vs leave ▪ by your lordships favour , to demand what were the fountaynes from whence , and what are the endes wherevnto both theirs and ours sprang , and do tend ? your lordships can not denye but as theirs were first worne , without any cōmandement of god , so be ours , and that therfore , as the wearing of theirs was but by devise and authoritie of man , so is ours : as theirs were commaunded for order , comelines and decencie , vnto the minions of the great whore , so be ours commended to be decent , comely and orderly garments , for the maydes of the bryde . as theirs were for a conformitie amonge the lovers of her that committed fornication , so bee ours for an vniformitie among the lovers of a pure and chast virgin : as theirs were for notes and distinctions betweene the people and the priestes , so be ours held to be markes betweene the shepheardes and the sheepe : as theirs might not be worne but vpon the vpper peltes of their priestes , so must not ours be vsed , but vpon the vpper garmentes of our ministers : as their priestes might not sacrifice , nor make holy water without them , even so is it not lawfull for our ministers without them , to pray or to administer the sacramentes . as theirs were significant , and yet notwithstanding , were altogether idle , vayne , fruitlesse , and without edification : so be ours mainteyned to bee neither darke nor dumme ceremonies , to serve as a decent order , and discipline , and such as be apt to stirre vp the dull mynd of man , to the remembrance of his dutie to god , by some speciall signification , whereby he might bee edified , to have respect how to please god and profit the church . whereas neverthelesse they be in trueth without edificatiō , without profit , nay rather hurtfull to the church , without pleasing god , without vse , idle , vayne , and needles ; as theirs might not be vsed at any other time , or in any other place , but only in the place & at the time of their service of their false god ; so may not ours be vsed in any other place , or at any other time , but only at the time , and in the place of the worship of the true god. and lastly , whosoever amonge the priestes , refused to weare their surplices , were adiudged scismatickes and to bee excommunicated ; even so what soever minister , among our ministers , denieth to receive and to put on one of our surplices , he is at the pleasure of his ordinarie , for such refusall , to be suspended , excommunicated , and deprived . in so much as there is not any one least circumstance to be found , wherein their , and our surplices , differ in matter , forme , vse , ende , or application . and thus much of our demaundes , grounded vpon holy writt , whether the christian magistrate , may commaunde and appropriate a ministeriall garment for the ministers of the gospell , and especially such a ministeriall garment , as hath bene a priestly garment , for the priestes of that great idoll the masse . now it followeth that wee demaunde , vpon what rules of holy writt the making of a crosse , and signing of the child in the forehead in the administration of baptisme is grounded ; against which we propound these grounds of holie writt . grounds out of holy writt against the vse of the crosse in baptisme . thou shalt not make to thy selfe any graven image . all they that make an image are vanitie , & their delectable things nothing profite . every man is a beast by his owne knowledge . this people have removed their hearte farr from me , and their feare toward me , was taught by the precept of man. in vaine they worship mee , teaching for doctrines the precepts of men . from which grounds we demand : whether your lordships can prove out of holy writt , that there can be a service yealded vnto god , where god hath not given a commandement ? whether the more a man thinketh to doe any thinge by his owne wisedome , and not as god instructeth him , the more he doe not prove him selfe to be a vile beast ? whether any thing can be acceptable in the sight of god , which he never required at our handes ? whether god wil be honored , according to mans fantasie , or rather doth not detest , whatsoever is not grounded vpon his worde ? if your lordships for the avoyding of these demandes , shall deny the feigned making of a crosse , and feigned signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse , in the administration of baptisme , to be any service , or to be any worship vnto god , and therefore neither voluntarie service , neither will-worship vnto god : then we demaunde for what intent , or to what end , the making of a crosse , and signinge the forehead of the childe with a crosse , is commaunded as a necessarie service , to be performed by the minister , in that publique acte of gods worship ? for if the forme and manner of gods worship ( as you say ) be established , prescribed , & conteyned in the booke of common prayer , if also the ministration of the sacrament commaunded in that booke , be ( as you say ) no corrupt , superstitious , or vnlawfull worship , neither conteyning any thing in it that is repugnant to the scriptures : how should not the making of a crosse , and signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse , but be a pure , a religious , & a lawfull worship vnto god ? besides , if making a crosse vpon the childes forehead , and signing the forehead of the childe with a crosse , be no act of gods worship in the administration of baptisme ; then we demaund , how the minister in foro cōscientiae , can be guiltles of taking the holy name of god in vaine , when as in the act of gods service and worship , hee doth neither worship , nor serve god ? but , sirs , by your patience , the minister in obeying the authoritie of the church , when shee commaundeth him , to make a crosse , herein obeyeth god. why then , by your lordships favour , wee demaund , whether the church doe serve god , or doe but please her selfe , in that her cōmandment ? for ( say we ) where no commaundement of god , there no service vnto god : and therefore if the church , by such her commaundement , doe but please hir selfe ; and not serve and please god. then we demaund , whether the church in thus pleasing her selfe , and not serving ●od , doe not offend god , asmuch , nay rather more , then if shee had commaunded a voluntarie service , and a will-worship vnto god ? but , sirs , the acte of making a crosse , and signing the childe in the forehead with a crosse , is no parte of baptisme , for we graunt , that baptisme is perfect and absolute without it . but yet by your lordships favour , the question is not , whether making of a crosse , or signing with a crosse , be any parte of baptisme , but whether making of a crosse , and signing with a crosse , be any parte of the continued acte of the outward and divine worship given vnto god in the publick administration of baptisme ? for if it be a meere traditionall , and no divine or religious action ▪ or if it be partly traditional , and partly divine , we still vrge your lordships to prove vnto vs , by the holy scriptures , whether it were ever lawfull in any act of gods worship , to act a thing meerely traditionall , or partly traditionall , and partly divine . as for the action of sitting , standing , kneeling , going , reading , praying , preaching , and if there be any other divine , naturall , or necessarie actions , powers or faculties of the body or minde , without which no outward service can be yealded vnto god. we confesse , that the church with the magistrates consent , may determine of the comely and orderly acting of these things : because aliquo per deum mandato , omnia ea mandantur , ne quibus illud mandatum commodè & religiosè adimpleri non potest : and therefore those divine , necessarie , and naturall actions before remembred , depending vpon , or proceeding from the powers and faculties of the bodie or mind , being such as without which the outward service of god can not ▪ commodiously , decently , and orderly be accomplished , we affirme , that they be confirmed vnto vs from generall rules of holy writ . and this also may serve for an answere , for the having of water , & a vessell to conteyne water ; because , as water of necessitie is required to the administration of baptisme , so must also water ( we having no waters running through our churches ) of necessitie be cōteyned in some vessell ▪ but as for making a crosse , or signing the forehead of the child with a crosse in baptisme , because the same by your confession , is no part of baptisme ; and because also the same is not properly and simply any necessary , naturall or divine actiō , as without which baptisme can not be administred ; nay , because it is such an action , as without which baptisme very decently and orderly may be administred : wee pray your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writt , how the minister may acte the signe in the outward acte of gods worship : and yet not breake ( as earst hath bene said ) either the second commandement , by outwardly serving god otherwise then hee hath commanded in his worde , or not violate the thirde commandement , by taking his holy name in vaine ? but by your patience , sirs , this making a crosse vpon the childes forehead , and this signing him with a signe of the crosse , in token , &c. though the same be no part of baptisme , nor any parte of the outward worship of god , nor any naturall , nor necessarie action of the body or mind , without which baptisme can not be administred , yet is the same a solemnitie , & an ornament apperteyning vnto baptisme , by the order of the church ▪ which ought not to be omitted and left vndone . but by your lordships favour , this your apologie is of no fresher hue , nor of any deeper dye , then wherewith the great papistes and fond canonistes have alwayes bepainted and becouloured their signing , their salting , their spitteling , their oyling , their chrismating , and their other such like solemnities , according to these verses : sal , oleum , chrisma , cereus , chrismate , saliua , flatus , virtutem baptismatis ista figurant ; haec cum patrinis , non mutant esse , sed ornant . and therefore we pray your lordships to resolve vs by some place of holy writt , whether the papists and you , or either of you , be inabled to invent , or ordeyne such solemnities , ornaments , signes & figures of crosses to be vsed in the publique administration of baptisme , as never once came in the mind of god to have devised or vsed ? and so much the rather doe wee desire your lordships resolutions herein , because there is no maner of solemnitie , signe , figure or ornament of a crosse , required by the book of cōmon prayer , to be vsed in that administration of baptisme , which in the same book , is intituled private baptisme . for if baptisme without any reall solemnitie , or actuall ornament of a crosse , or of the signe of a crosse , may bee administred privately , how much more without these humane solemnities and ornamentes might baptisme be administred publiquelie ? there being then in the church of england , two formes & maners of the administration of baptisme , the one private , the other publike ; the one with a crosse , the other without a crosse , and both of these concluded by your late canons , not to be corrupt , superstitious , or vnlawfull , by meanes also whereof there is to be seene no cōformitie , or vniformitie betwene having solemnities & ornaments of crosses , & signes of crosses in publike baptisme , & betwene the not having solemnities and ornaments of crosses , and signes of crosses in private baptisme : we pray your ll. to resolve vs out of holy writ ; whether these ornaments & solemnities of crosses , & signes of crosses , for the stability of publike peace & quiet in the church , & the not enforcing of any mans conscience with the vse of the crosse , might not aswell be left out in the administratiō of publike , as it is in the administratiō of private baptisme ? for whether respect be had to the brethren offended , or made weake by the vse therof , or whether we regard the not cōfirming & strenghtening of the superstitious in their error , there is farr much more danger like to ensue , both to the one sorte & to the other , by the vse of it , in publike , then in private baptisme , by reason that the assembly generally is evermore great in the one , and never but small in the other . but to let passe this deformitie of crossing & not crossing , in publik & private baptisme , we will prosecute some few demands , not yet moved , concerning the feigned imaginarie and ayrie crossing , vsed in publike baptisme . and first , we pray your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ , how a minister , in foro conscientiae , can be cleare & without sinne , when as in the same publike & continewed act of gods worship , imaginarily & feignedly he shal affirme the doing of a thing , w ch indeed & in trueth he doth not , ne possibly can do ? if the minister then without some instrumēt , chalk , rudle or such like , can make no crosse vpon the childs forehead , and yet shall say ( as the booke prescribeth ) that he signeth him with the signe of the crosse , what a grosse fitten call ye that ? to affirme that the passing of the ministers hand , thūme or finger , croswise in the ayre over the childs forehead , is to make a crosse vpon the childs forehead , & that the same passing in the ayre , is also the signe of a crosse , this ( we say ) to affirme , is as if a man should assevere , that the flying of a bird in the ayre , & the slyding of a serpent vpon a stone , leaveth a bird , and the signe of a bird in the ayre ; a serpent , and the signe of a serpent , vpon a stone : and to say that there is an invisible crosse , or a signe of an invisible signe of a crosse , remaining in the ayre over the childes forehead , how absurd , and without all reason that saying is , we leave to your lordships considerations . for if it be vnpossible to make a crosse , or the signe of a crosse , vpon the running water , much more vnpossible is it to make a crosse , or the signe of a crosse , in the subtile and replenishing ayre : wherefore vnlesse your lordships can prove by some rule of holy writt , that every minister is indowed with power from above , to make crosses , and signes of crosses , which be invisible , and that these invisible signes and crosses be also invisible tokens in the childes forehead , of his being not ashamed of christ crucified , of his manfull fighting , &c. we demand , what good plea in foro conscientiae , your lordships can frame to dischardge the minister from being guilty of a thrice feigned , imaginary & lying crosse ? we say , thrice faigned at the least . first , we receive and doe signe thee : secondly , with the signe ; and thirdly , of the crosse . and what , if we saide fourthly , in token ? for what token can the child , or his witnesse , in his name receive & keepe , when as neither he , nor they , have any crosse , any signe , or any token of a crosse given or delivered vnto them at all ? which maner of crossing , signing and tokening , may well bee compared to our atturnies proceeding by signes and profers , signes and profers ; when indeed by such their pleadings they hasten not , but delay their clyents causes , only making signes and profers , signes and profers , as though by this meanes they hastened to an end , when as indeed they mind nothing lesse . but to speake no more of the ministers feigned signes and profers of making crosses & signes of crosses in the ayre , vpon or over the childs forehead ; wee demand ? whether not to be ashamed to confesse the faith of christ crucified ; whether not to be ashamed manfully to fight vnder his banner , against sinne , the world and the divell ; whether not to be ashamed to continewe christes faithfull souldier and servant to his lifes end ? we demand ( we say ) whether these three graces , be not all , & every of them , inward , invisible and spirituall graces , yea or no ? if your lordships answere , ( as the trueth is ) that these graces be all spiritual , invisible & inward graces , then because by the book of common prayer ( so the minister make a crosse ) it is not materiall of what forme the crosse be made : we demand , by what rules of holy writ , your lordships can prove , that the signe of the crosse of saint iohns of ierusalem , the signe of saint andrews crosse , the signe of saint peters crosse , the signe of the crosse made after the greeke t. or like the hebrew χ. or like the greeke x. or the signe of any other crosse , ( for there be divers other formes of crosses ) can be a token of these spirituall and invisible graces , if so be they were engraven with a diamond vpon the childes forehead . if your lordships answere affirmatively , that the signe of saint andrewes crosse , of saint iohns crosse , of saint peters crosse , or the signe of any other crosse , made by the minister vpon the childes forehead , is a token of these inward , spiritual and invisible graces ; then we demand , whether your lordships ascribe not like power to every minister , for the trāsubstantiation of every invisible crosse , feinedly made in the administration of baptisme , to the forme of a true & visible crosse , as the pope attributeth to every prieste , for the transubstantiation of every piece of bread , wherevpon he bloweth at the altar , into the body of christ ? or if your lordships answere ( because there is no crosse sensibly to be seene , but intelligiblie to be vnderstood ) that the imaginary feigned & ayrie crosse is a token of these invisible & spirituall graces ; then againe we pray your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writt , whether god did ever ordeine any invisible signes , to bee invisible tokens , of invisible graces , yea or no ? and if god did never ordeine such signes ; then we demand , what authoritie man hath to ordeine such signes ? but if your lordships shall answere negatively , viz : that the invisible signe of the crosse , imaginarily pretended to bee made by the minister , is not a token of these inward and spirituall graces ; then wee demande , whether your lordships with your owne mouthes pronounce not that thing to be false , which the booke of common prayer commandeth every minister , with his lips to proclaime to be true ? but sirs , by your leave , the church hath power from christ to ordeyne rites and ceremonies , and the magistrate may command that all things be done decently and according to order , in the time of prayer and administration of sacraments . yea , and so say we too : nay wee say more , that the christian magistrate knowing any thing to be done vndecently and vnorderly , shall sinne against god , if by his authority , he take not order , for reformation of such disorder ; but by your lordships favour , the question is not whether the church may ordeine rites and ceremonies , or whether the christian magistrate may command such things , as by the apostles doctrine are to be done , that the same be done decently and orderly : but the question is , whether all rites and ceremonies indefinitlie , and without limitation approved by the church and commaunded by the magistrate to bee decent , and to be in order , be in deed and without contradiction absolutely decent , and absolutely in order ? and for this cause and in this regarde only , both by ministers and people , without any search or inquisitiō of their agreeablenes with holy writt , absolutely to be receyved , as if the same by some holy oracle , were immediatly sent vnto them from god ? for be it supposed , that some rites and ceremonies ordeyned by the church and commaunded by the christian magistrate , be of the nature of things either vnlawfull , or inexpedient , or that they be vaine , idle , vnnecessarie and vnprofitable things : in these cases , we pray your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writt , whether the apostles rule of having all things to be done decently and according to order in the church cease not ? for how should those things be done decently and orderly in the church for the which the church hath no warrant , that the same should be done at all ? the apostle then having taught the corinthians , that the thinges which he wrote , were the commaundements of the lord , and concluding that all things treated of by him in the former partes of that chapter , touching the right vse of spirituall giftes , are to bee done decently and in order , we demaund , whether your lordships from this apostolicall rule can religiouslie conclude any otherwise then thus ? all the commaundements and all the spirituall giftes of the lord , are to be done and vsed in the church decently and orderly . but the wearing of a surplice , in tyme of prayer and administration of sacramentes , the making of a crosse vpon the childes forehead , &c. and kneeling in the act of receyving bread and wine at the lordes table , bee spirituall giftes , or at leastwise be the commaundements of the lord : therefore these things are to be done decently and in order . but now if your lordships beeing not able to strengthen your minor proposition by any place of holy writt , shall make the same answere which the romanistes frame in all like cases , for the authoritie of their church , namely : that the ministers , and people , ought preciselie to observe and doe these thinges , if not propter authoritatem apostolicam , yet propter authoritatem ecclesiae , seu christiani magistratus sic statuentis : then doe your lordships but as they doe , even runne from the rock , and buyld vpon the sand ; yea and besides , flee from the poynte in question : making the church , and christian magistrate not only to be preservers , but commanders of all evangelicall decencie and order , and then might not this consequution , and conclusion infallibly be true ? what soever thinges by the church , with consent of the christian magistrate , be , or shal be appointed , for evangelicall decencie and order in the church : the same without all exception , and challendge of any vndecencie , or disorder , must and ought to be receyved of every member of the church , for decent and orderlie thinges : but all such and such things by the church , with consent of the christian magistrate be appointed , &c. therefore all such and such things , must & ought , without all exception , be receyved , &c. yea , sirs : and is not this a good consequution , and doeth not this conclusion necessarilie followe ? for who shall be iudge of evangelicall decencie and order , if not the church and christian magistrate alone ? before we answere vnto this question , wee denie your proposition , because the same seemeth vnto vs to be rather an inversion , then a true conversion of the apostles rule , viz. let all things be done decently and in order . the meaning whereof , according to the analogie of the place , we take to be this , namely : that all thinges , or what soever thinges are to be done in the church , that the same thinges ought to bee done decently and in order : but what agreement , we pray you , hath this rule with your proposition ? or what coherence hath your proposition with this rule ? for by what arte can you frame this your proposition vpon the apostles foundation ? this your proposition ( wee saye ) namely all things , or whatsoever things the church with consent of the christian magistrate shall authorize for decencie and order , the same are all decent and orderly things . indeed , if this your propositiō could be proved true by any doctrine drawne from any other place of holy writt , we would easilie graunt , the church with consent of the christian magistrate having commanded copes , surplices , crosses , kneelings , &c. to be vsed in the church , that this the apostles rule did binde all those to kneele , to make crosses , and to weare copes , and surplices , not vngaynely , disorderly or slovenly , but comely , hansomely , and netely ; but seeing your proposition is false , and can not by any other place of holy scripture be proved true , you have drawne in the apostles rule , as it were by the hayre , and pluckt it in , as it were by the heeles , to a wrong purpose , and forced it to a wronge sense . furthermore , because these wordes decencie and order , mencioned in your proposition , carrie a double sense , we pray your lordships to resolve vs , whether by these wordes decencie & order , you meane simplie such a decencie , and such an order , as for the allowance whereof , playne and evident testimonies may be founde in holy writt , that the same decencie and order is pleasing vnto god ? or whether you meane such a decencie and order only , as for the which ( we having no other warrant , then tradition or commaundment of man ) is only pleasinge vnto man ? touching which latter kinde of decencie and order , the same being but humane , we demaund , if either ministers or people bee not fully perswaded in minde , that this humane decencie and order , is by some generall rule of holy writt , aswell pleasing vnto god ; as the same by some law of man , is knowne to be well pleasing vnto man : we demaund ( we say ) in this case whether minister or people , in foro conscientiae , be obliged to vse this so called and commaunded decencie or order , yea or no ? for albeit every soule be subiect to the higher powers ; neverthelesse , for the avoyding of error , and that the conscience of every soule may be vpright with god , in her subiection , to the ordinance of man : the conscience must take direction , not from the onely will and authoritie of man , but from the only writt and authoritie of god. and therefore as every magistrate , ought to be fully perswaded in his conscience of his commaund , before he conscionably may require , that to be obeyed which he commaundeth : even so it be hoveth every soule , before he obey , to be perswaded fully in his minde , that the thing cōmanded , ought for conscience sake , to be obeyed , because the same is approved by the holy word of god : for otherwise howsoever outwardly he may serve , and please the magistrate , yet inwardly & in the spirite , he can never be assured that in this case , he shal serve god : because the magistrates commandement simply considered in it self , is not any true spirituall guide , for the conscience of any soule , to be ledd and conducted by . now then to your lordships former question , whether the church and supreme christian magistrate , ought not to sitt , as soveraigne iudge , vpon the conscience of every soule , about the determination of all decencie and order to be kept by that soule , your lordships by this our discourse , easily may perceave , that we may well answere your demand , if we propound but one question to another . and therefore we demaund , who shal be sovereigne iudge over that soule and cōscience , that commandeth decencie & order in the church , if not only the holy word of god alone ? and if the christian magistrate must for the safetie of his soule , have some rule of holy writt , to be his soveraigne iudge , for the thing that he cōmandeth ; how should not the christiā subiect in like sorte for the safetie of his soule , have some word of faith , to be his sovereigne iudge , for his subiectiō in the thing which he obeyeth ? for so shall not the conscience of him that commandeth , be any more a sovereigne iudge over him that obeyeth , then shall the conscience of him that obeyeth , bee sovereigne iudge over him that commandeth . but , sirs , if this be so , what soverainitie doe ye yeeld vnto the christian magistrate , above the subiect , or what shall his authority avayle , when every soule commanded to be subiect to his power , shall examine the validitie of the lawfulnesse of his command ? shall not every rule of holy writ , wherevpon the christian magistrate doeth ground his conscience , for the thing commanded , be a good and sufficient ground for the conscience of every one , in the thing that is obeyed ? vnto this we answer ; that the christian magistrates conscience can not be any sufficient discharge for the conscience of him that obeyeth , vnlesse your lordships bee able to prove vnto vs by some place of holy writ , that the magistrate touching the lawfulnes of the thing commanded , can not erre . for every soule , aswell of the subiect , must answere & give an accompt for him selfe vnto god , for the thing wherein he obeyeth , as the magistrate must for the thing which he cōmandeth ; for the good and rightfull obedience , and command whereof , he hath appointed his holy word alone , to be the only iudge aswell vnto the subiect , as vnto the magistrate : or ells what soverainitie should the word of god beare over the cōscience of a subiect , if so be the magistrates conscience & command should be the soveraigne iudge over the subiects soule , & sway the subiects conscience ? and yet by this meanes doe we not take away the due preeminence and authoritie , which by the holy worde of god is given to the civill magistrate , over the subiect : for in that , that every soule is commanded to be subiect , for conscience sake , to the higher powers , this scripture by your lordships patience ( as we take it ) is to be vnderstood , not for the conscience of him that cōmandeth , but for the conscience of him that obeyeth : because the subiect , without the breach of his conscience , can not contemne the civill governement , which god hath appointed , not to be over the soule , but to be over the body . and indeed to establish the command or conscience of the civill magistrate , to be the squire & plūmet of every subiects conscience , were to wrest the holy scriptures , & to establish ( as the antichristianites do ) a tyranny over the consciences of subiects : thus much touching that later kind of humane decencie and order before spoken of . and as concerning that kind of decency & order for the which there may be testimonies found in holy writ , that they be pleasing vnto god : we affirme that the church and christian magistrate ought not only to be commanders and preservers of the same , but that both ministers and people also ought to be followers and embracers thereof . nay , we say more , yea we affirme , that every humane decencie & order whatsoever ought to stoupe and give place vnto that order and decencie for the which testimonies are to be found in holy writ , that the same be pleasing vnto god , and therfore we demand , by what rule of holy writ , your lordships can prove your late convocationall canons , to have allowance from the spirit of christ , when as by the same ye have cōmanded a decencie & order , meerly humane precisely to be observed in the church , insteed of that decencie & order which at the beginning was in the church & which being pleasing vnto god could not be but divine ? it had bene ( in our iudgments ) a fact not simply cōmendable , if your lordships had but invented and added an humane decencie and order vnto that which hath warrant from holy writt , to be divine : but wholy to disseyse the church of that decencie and order , which by testimony of holy writt , is witnessed to bee pleasing vnto god ; and to give your owne devises , decencies and orders , liverie and seysin this to doe , we demand , whether , in foro conscientiae , it be not a double sinne , and in curiae christianitatis , deserve not a double censure ? but , sirs , by your patience , what is that divine order , and what is that divine decencie , whereof we have disseysed the churches , and what decencie and order , of our owne , have we put in seysin thereof ? by your lordships favour , before we make full answer vnto this your question ; we demand , whether your lordships bee able to prove out of holy writt , that the outward forme and maner of acting any service vnto god , by our saviour christ or his apostles in prayer , preaching the word & administring the sacraments , was an vnorderly , or an vndecent forme or maner of acting that service before god , yea or no ? if your lordships answere , as the trueth is , that the outward maner of acting every kind of service by our saviour christ & his apostles , was so decently & orderly done , and so acceptable vnto god , as nothing in the outward acting thereof could be more , wee then pray your lordships to resolve vs first , what warrant you have out of holy writt , to disseyse all the ministers of the outward acting of the whole worship of god in prayer and administring the sacraments , without a surplice ? secondly , what warrant you have from the spirit of christ , to disseyse all the ministers of the acting of some part of gods worship , in the administration of publike baptisme , without making a crosse vpon the childes forehead , and signing him with the signe of the crosse ? lastly , what approbation you have from the spirit of christ , wholy to disseyse all the sonnes and daughters of god , of the acte of sitting in the acte of receiving the sacrament of the lordes supper ? for in that you have commanded that no minister , when he celebrateth the communiō , shall wittingly administer the same to any but to such as kneel , you haue , by consequence , inhibited every one that sitteth , to receive the same . and thus to establish your owne humane decencie and order of kneeling , in the acte of receiving the communion , you have disseysed vs of that euangelicall decencie and order of sitting , warranted vnto the ministers and vnto vs by the example of our saviour christ and his apostles , whē as at his last supper , he him self delivered both the bread and the wine vnto his apostles , as they sate , and not as they kneeled at the table ; whereby it appeareth that you looked not vnto the holy one of israell , nor sought vnto the lord ; and he yet is wisest . but , sirs , by your patience , it is not required as a thing of meere necessitie , as though without kneeling the sacrament might not lawfully be ministred and received at all , but for reverence and conformities sake only , it is commanded that the people should kneele . why then , by your lordships favour , we demand , vnto whom this reverence is yealded , and vnto what thing this conformitie is proportioned ? for that this forme of kneeling is not conformed to the apostles maner of sitting at the table , is evident , nether can it be denyed , but that this kinde of reverence is fashioned like to that maner of reverence , which every catholicke fornicatour , by the ordinance of his love the great whore , doeth yealde vnto his idoll , when he received his breaden god : wherefore we pray your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writt , whether your conformitie , and your reverence of kneeling ( in the acte of receiving the sacrament of the lordes supper ) may not rightly be condemned , as things not having any due reverence , conformitie or proportion with the written law of god , or example of our saviour christ and his apostles before mencioned ? besides , we demand , whether your lordships had not worthely deserved to have bene much praised and commended by all the churches , for that thanks might have bene given by many vnto god , for you , if so be for reverence vnto the example of our saviour christ , who did all things well , and conformitie to his apostles , ye had commanded the people not to have kneeled in the acte of receiving after the fashion of the catholicke fornicatours , who doe all things ill , but rather to have sitten after the maner of the apostles ? especially sithence betwene this maner prescribed of receiving the sacrament of the lordes supper kneeling , & the maner of the receiving the sacrament of baptisme , yea and the word it selfe , sitting or standing , and not kneeling , there can be found no maner of conformitie at all ; and yet as we deny not ( when we come to the font , or to the sermon , both before , & after the word preached and baptisme administred ) but that we ought reverently and vniformely to kneele in prayer & thankesgiving prescribed by the booke . even so also , we acknowledge , when we come to the lords table , that before and after the deliverie and receiving of the sacrament , we ought to confesse our sinnes , to pray and to give thankes , reverently and vniformely kneeling vpon our knees : but that we should more kneele in the very acte of receiving bread and wine , at the ministers hand , at the lords table , then in the name of our children , in the very acte of our childrens receiving water vpon their faces , or being dipt in water , wee should kneele at the font , in the time of baptisme ; we for our partes must confesse , that as yet this mysterie of conformitie and reverence , to kneele in the acte of receiving the communion , is hidden from vs : because we see no more needfulnesse of reverence and conformitie for kneeling , to be in the acte of receiving the one sacrament , then to be in the act of receiving the other : nor that there is any greater reverence , or conformitie of kneeling to bee vsed , when the minister breaketh bread for our bodyes , which perisheth at the communion table , then when he breaketh the bread of life for our soules , which perisheth not in the pulpit . nay , furthermore what conformitie is there prescribed in the booke of common prayer ; when in one & the same church , and in one & the same act of receiving the lords supper , it permitteth the minister to receive standing , and prescribeth the people to receive kneeling ? or what greater reverence is there required by the sheepe , then is to be performed by the sheepheard , who should be an example to the flocke ? the words of the book for the ministers standing , when he receiveth the communion , seeme vnto vs to bee so perspicuous and without all maner of ambiguitie , as without an absurditie they can not bee construed to command a minister to kneele ▪ for the maner how the minister of the place , or how other ministers , if any be present to helpe him , should receive , is not prescribed at all , vnlesse it be prescribed , that he and they , should receive standing . nay , howsoever in the same book it be said , that the minister shall deliver the communion in both kindes to the people in their hands kneeling , neverthelesse it followeth not herevpon , ( the law being not in the negative , but in the affirmative ) that the minister may not deliver the communion to the people standing or sitting , or that the people be exactly bound not to stand or to sitt , but to kneele . besides , because by the booke of common prayer of the seconde of edw. 6. wherevnto only ( as we take it ) touching ornaments ▪ rites , and ceremonies our booke hath reference ( which booke also of edw. the 6. by the repeale made of the statute of primo of queene mary , in the first session of this last parliament is revived ) because ( we say ) by this booke of common prayer of the second of edw. 6. kneeling , crossing , holding vp of handes , knocking vpon the breaste , and other gestures are to bee vsed , at least , as every mans devotion serveth , without blame : we pray your lordships to suffer vs without blame , and danger of your late canons , peaceably , and quietly to enioy and possesse our libertie ; that so we may receyve the communion , sitting , standing , or kneeling , as everie mans devotion serveth . and thus much for our full and perfect answere vnto your questions of disseysing the church of her evangelicall decencie and order , and of reverence and conformitie , in kneeling in the act of receyving the cōmunion ; wherevpon we most instantly pray your lordships , that you would be well pleased vpon your second thoughtes , to heale your former errours ; and withall to be content , not only to suppresse the vse of your copes , surplices , making of crosses , signing with crosses , tokening with crosses ▪ kneeling , &c. but also to restore our possession , and to give vs livery and seysin of all those decencies , conformities , and reverend maner of prayer , preaching the word , receiving and administring the sacramentes ( without copes , surplices , crosses , and kneelings ) whereof the churches were seysed in the apostles tymes : and which being moderated by the wisdome and authoritie of our saviour christ , we are most assured , can not be but well-pleasing vnto god. but , sirs , by your patience , our christian magistrate imposeth them , as matters of order , according to that forme , wherein he found the church at his coming , and this his pleasure must commaund , & may satisfie vs ; if it should please the king not to commaund them , wee , for our partes ▪ could be well content not to vrge them . see , see , what a dalliance is this in a matter of so high a qualitie , and touching the dignitie , & preheminence of so excellent a person ? what ? was your melody yesterday , and that in the presence of the king , and assemblie of his nobles ; was your melody but yesterday ( we say ) viz. no ceremonie , no bishop : no bishop , no king ? and can your lordships to day , sitting iudicially in your consistory ( to censure the ministers for not conformitie ) thus sudenly change your note , and cry openly ; no commaundement of ceremonies by the king ; no imposition of ceremonies by the bishop ? for is it not ? as if you should have layde the whole blame vpon the king , and have spoken thus : no ceremonious king , no ceremonious bishop ? and yet for all this , do not all men know , that your lordships were too too ceremonious , and too too great masters of ceremonies , before ever the king saw your faces ? and how then cometh it to passe ( ceremonies having hitherto ben vpheld by your lordlines ) that your lordlines should not now stande but by ceremonies ? or how cometh it to passe ( your lordlines heretofore being propped vp by the crowne and scepter of our late queene ) that your lordlines should now vphold the scepter & crowne of our christian king ? this your lordships gradation therefore , made vpon the first day from the not being of a ceremonie , to the not being of a bishop , to the not being of a king : and this your protestation made vpon the next day , of the being of a kinge , to the being of a ceremonie , what ells doeth the one and the other argue and importe , but a feare and a suspition ( if the king should once commande downe your lawes of ceremonies ) that the lawes of your lordlinesse likewise would of them selves , sone after fall to the ground . and therefore whether the king did conceive , that you might but glose and flatter with your gradation , or whether poore , simple and playne meaning men might be seduced by your protestation , we know not , neither is it our purpose to enquire . only we can not but much marveile , that each of you professing him selfe to be a gad , and to be a nathan : to be a seer , and to be a prophet vnto our christian magistrate , should thus protest , & thus chardge the king , to be the only spirit , by whom your selves doe speake , and the only prophet from whom your selves doe learne . nay , what a thinge is this ? your lordships prophesying vnto the king , in the name of the lord ; that your rites and ceremonies , are no way contrariant , or repugnant , but every way agreeable and consonant to the holy word of god , and meete to be reteyned , aswell for the manner and forme of gods worship , as for edification of the church , should notwithstanding openly avow the kings pleasure , and the kings command , to be the fountayne and welspring of your prophesies ? nay , which is more , your selves , making for your selves ceremonious hornes of iron , & assuring the king , that with the same he should be able to overthrowe and push downe al such as by your lordships be falsely called puritanes , what a thing is this , that you should notwithstanding , proclayme the kings minde , to be , as it were , the only mould wherein your ceremonies were cast ? nay , which is more , what a thing is this ? your lordships assuring to your selves , to bee the chiefest of the lordes priestes and levites , should notwithstanding put the holy censores into his maiesties hand , and laye the holy arcke of the covenaunt , vpon the kinges shoulders , to burne incense , and to beare it , and to carrye it him selfe alone ? nay , which is more , what a thing is this ( your lordships by a definitive sentence , publickly given , read and divulged in your sacred ( so called ) synod , having not only iudicially decreed , the lawfulnes of ornaments , rites and ceremonies , but also humbly and professedly desired the same to be cōfirmed by the kings royal authoritie vnder the broad seale of england ) that you should notwithstanding , for the execution of your said decree , call to witnes the kings commaund , and the kings pleasure ? as though the kings pleasure and commaund were the only cause , and not the effect of your decree ; and not rather your decree the only cause and not the effect of his highnes commaund ? your second canon , by which the same power is iustly ( as we cōfesse ) given to our sovereigne lord the king in causes ecclesiasticall , that the godly kings had among the iewes , will not serve to excuse you , in the making of your canons , if any of them be blame worthie ; for the godly kings of iudah , never had any authoritie to command what ceremonies should be ordeyned among the lewes : neither did king david , neither any other of the godly kings of iudah , doe any thing in building of the temple , in distribution of offices among the levites , or in any manner services performed to the lord , but the same was sent vnto them in writing from the hand of the lord , or by the mouth of the prophetes , or by casting of lott . what soever authoritie then the godly kings of iudah had , to command ceremonies once made , to be observed , the same authoritie , and none other in matter of ceremonies , doeth your canon yeald vnto the king : and therfore we beseech your lordships hereafter to carry such a loyall and conscionable reverence , and estimation , to the honor and dignitie of our christian king , and the noblenes of his kingly charitie declared by his proclamation , as that hereafter in your consistories and publique seates of iudgement , you would vse conferences , arguments , and perswasions , wayes of love , and gentlenes , workings by clemencie , and weight of reason , to reclayme all that be in the ministerie , to the obedience of the church lawes , according as by the kings proclamation you are required ; rather thē by rigour of law , shaking the kings sword , and pressing the kings commandement , to enforce the trembling consciences of your weake brethren , contrarie to the kings most noble & christian intention plainly vttered by his proclamation . there be sundrie other poyntes in his maiesties proclamation , which by your lordships worthily deserved consideration , before you had begun those violēt courses , which some of you have pursued in this case : the peremptory day assigned to the ministers for their conformitie by the king , being of more authoritie then 1000. of your canonicall admonitious , would have bene fully expired , before you had troubled the ministers about this matter , otherwise then by conferences , argumentes , perswasions , &c. all ministers who had incurred no censures of the church or penalties of the law in the queenes tyme , or since the kings raigne , before the sixth of iuly 1604. be exempted out of the proclamation ; though before the day appointed , they have not conformed them selves , to the orders of the church . and yet many such have you disquieted ? the lawes and orders of the church remayne very vncerteyne , so as it is not certeyne , to what lawes and orders established the ministers should conforme them selves , and yet before the day expired , you have vrged some ministers to cōforme them selves to canons divulged since the proclamation . the canon law , is vtterly voyd within the realme , and therefore your oath of canonicall obedience is of no force , and all your canonicall admonitions not worth a rush . the old provinciall constitutions , intreat of no such oath , besides they litle or nothing respect any orders , or ceremonies of our church . to which booke of common prayer the ministers should subscribe , in that maner and forme , as by the canon is required , is not decided . if they subscribe to the booke published since the kings raigne , they may then be called into question , at every sessions & assises , for vsing an other forme , then is prescribed in the queenes booke , the same remayning still in force & vnrepealed : if subscription be vrged to the queenes booke , then may not the ministers yeeld therevnto , because the kinge and bishops have concluded to reforme some things conteyned in the same , as being repugnant to the holy word of god. besides , the booke of common prayer of the second of edward 6. touching ornamentes , rites and ceremonies , and wherevnto for the same respect both the queenes and the kings booke hath reference , revived this last parliament , by disannulling the statute of repeale made the first of queene mary . this book , we say of the 2. of edw. 6 ▪ establishing other ornaments , rites and ceremonies , then the former bookes doe , some of those ceremonies also to be vsed , or at least at every mans devotion , and the ornaments after another maner thē ours , make vs greatly to stand in doubt , whether all ceremonies , conteyned in every of these bookes , or but some , or which of them , are to be vsed , yea or no. touching the late canons , of what authoritie many of them be , may iustly be questioned : because some of them seeme vnto vs , to be contrariant or repugnant to the lawes , statutes , & customes of the realme , som to be derogatorie to the kings prerogative royall , and other some to be repugnant to the holy word of god , and therefore in all these three respects to be voyd canons , by the common law , & statutes of the realme . lastly , howsoever some ministers might be within the cōpasse of the proclamation , not conforming them selves , before the last of novēb . to the lawes established before the 16. of iuly , neverthelesse the bishops after the day expired , ought to have attēded the kings pleasure , by what wayes and meanes , he had determined to take from among the people ; all occasions of sectes , divisions and vnquietnes , much lesse before the day , should they have attempted any thing , vnlesse , as the proclamation requireth them , they had provided meete persons , to bee substitutes , in the places of those , who wilfully had abandoned their charges . these things being thus most providently , nobly , and royally , for the quietnes of the church , set forth by the kings proclamation , it had bene a parte of very great wisedome and moderation for your lordships ( in our opinions ) paciently to have expected the kings further direction , before by your vntimely pressing the kinges commandement , authoritie and rigour of his lawes , ye had indevoured the inforcing of their consciences , without perswasions by weight of reason ; and so much the rather should your lordships have done this , that hereby ye might have satisfied , all civill magistrates , gentlemen and others of vnderstandinge , that they seeing by your conferences , argumentes , perswasions , love , gentlenes , clemencie , and weight of reason , that the cause which you maintayne , & not that which they impugne , is good , might not in any sorte have supported , favoured , or countenanced any factious ministers , in their obstinacie , as by the proclamation they are required . and yet by your lordships favour , not to conceale any thing , which hetherto we have ( as we thinke ) rightly conceaved of the kinges proclamation , we can not but informe your lordships , that by the same the king hath more tēdered the good estate of the ministers , & of their controversie in hand , then ever was tēdred , by any former prince , since poperie was banished . for when was there in england , before this time , by any kingly proclamation , any conference , argument , perswasion , love , gentlenes , clemencie ▪ & weight of reason , commanded , & rigor of the law forbidden to be vsed by the archbishops & bishops , for the reclayming of the ministers to the lawes of the church ? when were any ministers by publike authoritie , called , as it were , into open field , to stand vpon arguments and weight of reason ? whē was it appointed by publike authoritie , that any ministers should answere , and that archbishops & bishops should oppose ? that the ministers should be defendants , and the bishops plaintifes ? when was it proclaymed , by any princes authoritie , that the archbishops and bishops , to their vttermost indevours , by argumentes , and weight of reason , should prove vnto the ministers , that the book of cōmon prayer , bookes of homilies , booke of cōsecrating bishops , priests , and deacons , book of articles , and other lawes , & orders of the church conteyne nothing , in the whole , or in any parte , disagreeable either in doctrine , or governement to the word of god ? all which things by the proclamation , are intended should be done , which things also if the archbishops & bishops have done , thē indeed we confesse , the ministers ( that have not yeelded to conforme thēselves ) to be wilfull , & the king to be righteous , for the abandoning of sectes , divisions and vnquietnes , among his people , if he shall allow no factious ministers in their obstinacie . but if the archbishops and bishops have not endevoured , much lesse not indevoured to the vttermost of their powers ( as by the king they are required ) by conferences , arguments , perswasions , love , gentlenes , clemencie , and weight of reason , to reclayme al ministers , to the obedience of the church lawes ; then wee can not see , how any civill magistrates , gentlemen , or others of vnderstanding , can be intended by the proclamation to be favourers , supporters , or contenancers , of factiousnes , or obstinacie in the ministers , which are not conformable . as for those two and twentie thousande ministers , if possible there could have bene so many , who , without any conferences , argumentes , perswasions , or weight of reason vsed by the archbishops , or bishops , have turned their heeles , and as gedeons tymerous and fearfull soldiours , have returned and departed early from mount gilead , before the appointed tyme came , we leave them to the lord , vnto whom in this case they have stood , or fallen . and who is able , to rayse thē vp though for a tyme they be downe ? nay , if of the tenne thousande ( if possible there were so many ) which bee left , there should nine thousande seven-hundered , bowe downe their knees , to drinke water at the bishops poole , and but 300. only should stand vp , to lapp water with their tongues , as a dogge lappeth , in that well of water , which springeth to eternal life , yet by these 300. only , is the lord able to save israell , and to deliver the medianites into gedeons hand . nay , if of these 300. but two only shall stand vp , clothed in sackcloth , to be witnesses , yet in the end , shall these two witnesses , bee two olyve trees , and two candlestickes standing before god , who governeth the earth , out of whose mouth , if any will hurt them , shall fire proceed and devoure their enemies . and thus much have we thought necessarie to be spoken , touching our vnderstanding of the kings pleasure and commaund , declared by his highnes proclamation ; yea this also have we done , not onely in regard of our loyaltie vnto our christian king , but also in regard of the clearing of ourselves from every vniust imputation of being favourers , supporters , or countenancers of factious ministers in their obstinacie , praying your lordships to cary a favourable construction of these our demaundes ; because our desire is to be fully satisfied by holy writt , and not rest our iudgementes vpon humane authoritie , especially sithence both your lordships and our selves , by the experience of full fiftie yeares , have both heard and seene how vnprofitably , and to no good purpose this salve of humane power hath bene applied vnto the church surfeted with drinkings , and eatings , of that romish strumpet : yea and for our parts , we can not but be hartily sory , that after so long a time of triall , your lordships should still remayne so vnperswasible , as not once to make experiment of the powring in of some more sweete and medicinable oyle , to this so deadly and desperate a wound : especiallie , the sore being at this day as deepe , as noysome , and as full of dead flesh , as the same was the very first moment , that your predecessors began to stoppe the issue thereof , with this kinde of humane tente . and so wee will proceed to our last ground drawne out of holy writt , for the resolutenes of our iudgementes wherevpon , and wherein we yet stand . the third ground . if thy brother be grieved for the meate , now walkest thou not charitably , destroy not him with thy meate , for whom christ dyed . it is evill for the man , which eateth with offence . it is good neither to eate flesh , nor to drink wine , nor any other thing , whereby thy brother stumbleth , or is offended , or made weake . let vs not therefore iudge one an other any more , but vse your iudgment rather in this , that no man put an occasion to fall , or a stumbling block before his brother . from which grounds we demand . first , whether your lordships iudge not all godly ministers & true beleevers within your iurisdictions , to be your christian brethren . and whetherye , and they bee not all sonnes vnto one father , and servants vnto one lord ? whether your lordships be not of opinion , that the putting , and not putting on of a surplice , the making & the not making of a crosse vpō the childs forehead in baptisme , the wearing & not wearing of a square cap ; and kneeling and not kneeling , in the acte of receiving bread and wine at the lords table , be not things in their owne nature of like indifferencie , as were the eating , and not eating of meates , drinking and not drinking of wine , or any thing in the apostles time ? whether your lordships can prove by any place of holy writt , that these rules and precepts given by the apostles of not greeving a brother for meate ; of not walking charitably by eating meate : of not destroying him , for whom christ died with meate ; of not doing evill by eating meate , of not eating or drinking , whereby a brother stumbleth , is offended , or made weake , and of not putting an occasion , to fall before a brother by eating meate . we demand , ( we say ) whether these the apostles commandements , in the not doing of all things of like indifferencie , with that of not eating meate , and not drinking wine , do not aswell bind your lordships at this day , as they did the bishops , pastours , elders and brethren of that time ? and therefore we demand : if any of your ll. had bene archbishop of ephesus , or of creete , had bene bishop of ierusalem , rome or colosse , in the apostles time : whether vnder the title of order & vniformitie , or by right of superioritie & power , ( you might without breach or cōtradiction of the apostles doctrine ) have cōmanded any brethren , within your charge , being weak in faith , to have eaten meats , forbiddē by the law , or sacrificed vnto idols ? againe , if any of your lordships in the apostles time , had bene an archbishop or a bishop , and by your archiepiscopall , or episcopall authoritie , had commaunded the pastours , elders and brethren vnder your chardge , being weake in faith , by example of the strong in faith , and for conformities sake , to have eaten meates sacrificed vnto idols , or forbidden by the law ; we demand , whether such your commandement had bene a charitable commandement , yea or no ? yea , and we demand , whether the same your commandement ( vnder what pretence of canonicall obedience , vnitie or conformitie , soever ) might have excused the weake in faith , from sinning against christ , if at your commandment they being not fully perswaded in their minds , had eaten of these meates doubtingly ? and if the apostles charitie were so great , as that he would never have eaten flesh , while the world stādeth , rather then he would greeve or offend his weak brother , or give him an occasion to sinne ; we demād how small charitie the men of our age may seeme to have , who be so far frō not greeving & not offending a weak brother , & of not giving him an occasion to sinne , as that not only they content not thē selves , by eating flesh themselves , to grieve & to offend a weak brother , & to give him an occasion to sinne , but also cōmand a weake brother to eate that meate , by eating wherof , he can not but fal , but stumble , but grieve , but offend , but sinne , and but destroy him selfe ? this kind of charitie may deserve vnhappely the name of some synodal or provincial charitie , but certes it can neverworthely deserve to be called an apostolicall charitie . but , sirs , you mistake the matter very much , you deceive your selves , & draw not the cases rightly : the vse of crosses , copes , surplices , cappes , & kneelings are cōmanded by the christiā magistrates soveraigne authority , only as things indifferēt for orders sake , & not that men should be grieved and offended , or that they should fall , stumble , sinne , & destroy them selves : touching the christian magistrates authoritie about ordering rites & ceremonies in the church , we have somewhat at large argued before , which we had thought might have fully satisfied your lordships , but because it pleaseth you still to presse vs with the same , we must once againe plainly signifie vnto you ; that we beleeve , that your selves do not attribute any more spirituall authoritie vnto the king , to make , constitute and ordeine canons , constitutions , rites or ceremonies , then you give vnto him spirituall power to preach the word , administer the sacraments , and excommunicate : for we beleeve , that your selves with the residue of the clergie , assembled by the kings writt , in your convocation , doe chalendge all spirituall power vnto your selves , to make , ordeine and decree all maner of canons , constitutions , ordinances , ornaments , rites and ceremonies in the church . yea , and this spirituall power we beleeve , that you pretend to be derived vnto your selves , and the rest of the clergie in the convocation , not from any spirituall power invested in the person of our soveraigne lord the king , but onely from the spirituall power of our saviour christ alone . and this is manifest by your cxxxix . canon , for so are your words : whosoever shall hereafter affirme that the sacred synode of this nation in the name of christ , and by the kings authoritie assembled , is not the church of england by representation , let him be excommunicated , &c. these wordes ( wee say ) of your canon , viz. sacred synod is assembled in the name of christ , and by authoritie of the king , plainely testifie , that you hold your synode not to be assembled by authoritie of the king , in the name of the king , or in the name of christ and the king , but only in the name of christ : and therefore by your owne wordes , wee are inforced to beleeve that you attribute vnto the king none other authoritie , then such as you attribute to the godly kinges of judah : namely an authoritie to assemble and command your persons , as they assembled and commanded the persons of the priestes . what ? to execute the rites and ceremonies of the kinges of iudah ? no : but to execute the rites and ceremonies of god. and so we beleeve your persons being assembled by authoritie and commandement of the king , that your selves by your owne authoritie , and that in the name and by the power of christ , and not in the name and power of the king , doe ordeine , decree and make canons , constitutions , rites and ceremonies , as if they were sent vnto vs , by your handes , from god. and thus much doe the very first words of your first canon , and some words in your 140. 141. canons clearly prove : for howsoever in the title of your book , you vse these words : constitutions and canons treated and agreed vpon , by the bishop of london , &c. yet both in the proheme & body of your first canō , you affirme as followeth . in your proheme or title you say thus : the kings supremacy over the church of englād in causes ecclesiastical , you say not over the church & causes , but over the church in causes ▪ and in the body of the same canō you say , we first decree & ordeine , that the archb. of canterbury , &c. and in the cxl. canon your words are these : whosoever shall affime , that no maner of person , &c. are to be subiect to the decrees therof ( speaking of the synod eccllesiasticall ) made & ratified by the kings maiesties supreame authority , &c. let him be , &c. your words also in your last canō , are these , whosoever shal hereafter affirm , &c. that the sacred sinod assembled , &c. was a company of persons , &c. in making canons & cōstitutions in causes ecclesiasticall , &c. ought to be despised , &c. the same being ratified , confirmed and inioyned by the regall power , supremacie and authoritie , lett them be excommunicated ; now by all these your owne words and sentences , we decree & ordeine : decrees of the synod , making canons by the sacred synod ; ratified , confirmed , inioyned by the regall power , &c. by all these words ( we say ) we can not but beleeve , that you chalendge your ecclesiasticall power of ordeining , decreeing , & making decrees , canons , constitutions , rites and ceremonies , to be invested in your owne persons assembled by authoritie of the king , from the authoritie and power of christ ; and not from any spirituall or ecclesiasticall power , invested in the person of the king , and derived , and conveighed vnto your persons assembled by his regall writt , for then how should we not beleeve also , but that you iudged the kings writt , to be no civil , but an ecclesiasticall and spirituall writt . but howsoever ( as yet ) wee beleeve not this latter , yet still we beleeve , that you appropriate vnto your owne persons assembled by the kings writt , a sole power , and that from our saviour christ , to give vnto your decrees , canons , constitutions , rites and ceremonies , their first being and their first birthright : and that you assigne vnto the king none other power , but a power of their after birth , & of ratifying and confirming of that life , & being , which your persons have first put into them : so that the king is in this , but as it were an executioner of your canons , and not you the executioners of the kings decrees . yea & thus much m. doctor bilson , in his book intituled , true difference , betweene christian subiection , & vnchristian rebellion , pag. 243. avoweth & testifieth , whose words are these ; we never said that princes had any spirituall power , it is a false collection of yours , it is no part of our cōfession , & the sword which they bear , we never called but external & tēporall . againe to devise new rites and ceremonies for the church , is not the princes vocation , but to receive and allow such as the scriptures and canons commend , and such as the bishops & pastours of the place shall advise , not infringing the scriptures or canons , & so for all other ecclesiasticall things & causes , princes be neither the devisors nor directors of them , but the confirmers and establishers of that which is good , and displacers , and revengers of that which is evill , which power we say they have in all things , be they spirituall , ecclesiasticall or temporall . ibid. pag. 252. yea , and moreover we beleeve , if any should impugne or gaine-say , this your power of making spirituall and ecclesiasticall decrees , in your convocatiō , not to belong properly to your ministeriall power which you have by your divine offices in the church , that you would then fly for the interpretation of the statute : 1. elizab. to our late queenes iniunctions ; wherby it is declared that nothing was , is , or shal be meant , or intēded by the oath required , to have any other duety allegeance , or band , then was acknowledged to be due to the most noble kinges , of famous memorie k. h. the eight hir maiesties father , or to k. ed. 6. hir maiesties brother : and that the kings and queenes of this realme , may not challendge authoririe and power of any ministery of divine offices in the churches . but vnder god to have soveraintie & rule of all maner of persons borne within hir realmes , so as no other foreigne power , shal or ought to have any superioritie over them ; vpon this iniunction ( we say ) we build our former credence , that your lordships iudge your only persons , and the persons of the rest of the clergie , & not the ministerie of your divine offices , or any parte thereof , to be vnder the obedience of the kings power ; vnto which ministerie also of divine offices , you attribute right of ordeyning and making canons , rites and ceremonies in the church , as a right properly incident and appertaining to that ministery , not of doctrine , but of divine governement , which you challendge to be due vnto you , as vnto ministers and officers appointed to rule and governe the church vnder christ , by the holy scriptures ; and therefore we pray your lordships henceforwards to put vs vnto no more paine , to answere this your argument , of kingly and supreame authoritie . for we beleeve assuredly , if archbishops , bishops , deanes , archdeacons and the rest of the clergie , assembled by the kings writt , by their deliberate counsaile , voluntary and vnconstrayned will , had not in their synod decreed the vse of copes , surplices , crosses , square cappes , tippets , and such trash , or if they had not by the president of their assembly , most instantly supplicated the king to command the vse of these things , thus ordeined by them selves : we perswade our selves assuredly , that the king by his absolute , regall and supreame power , would never have constrayned , archbishops , bishops , deanes , archdeacons , &c. to have vndergone the yoke of these ceremonies ; for the king right well knoweth , that in so doing , he should not have walked in the wayes of the godly kings of iudah , then whose holy example to followe , his highnes hath protested , to desire nothing more . neither for any other purpose , as it seemeth vnto vs , by your late speaches in the eares of the king ( no ceremony , no bishop ) doe your selves presse these ceremonies , then that they should be in your owne hands , as crosier staves , to stay vp from falling the tottering walles of your lordly iurisdictions . and yet because we never read in holy writt , that any ceremony was ever planted by our heavenly father , to bee a leanetoo , for any bishops of gods planting , or that the vnplanting of an humane ceremony , would be the vnplanting of any of gods bishops , what should we gather from hence , but that your lordships bee no bishops of gods planting ; for bishops planted by the hande of god , in the vineyard of christ , be so fast sett , and so deeply rooted , that by no blast or storme of humane ceremonies , they can be blowne vp . and thus much touching your argument of the kings cōmandement , for orders sake ; as for the indifferencie of the things commanded , the same hath already bene handled in an other place ; but touching the last part of your exception , that the vse of these things is not commanded , to the end , that men should be grieved , offended , fall , stumble , sinne , & destroy them selves ; we reiect this , as an impertinent & insufficient answere to our demand ; for our demand tendeth not to insinuate , that we think , that these things be commanded to the end , that every man by the vse of them , should sinne , but our demand concerneth the vncharitable commandement , of the vse of these things imposed vpon a weake brother , which weake brother , by the vse of these things ( notwithstanding the commandement ) can not but full , but stumble , but give an offence , but sinne . what ? because of the commandement ? no : but by reason of his weaknes , which the commandement hath not power to ridd , and take from him . and therefore vnles your lordships by some learning taught you in holy writt , can informe your selves , & our christian magistrate , that your synode in the apostles absence , is placed in the apostolike chaire , and being so placed , hath also received by the apostles doctrine , an apostolike authoritie , to commande those thinges in his absence , which he expresly forbade in his presence , wee doubt greatly whether your convocationall assembly , can charitably by gods law command the weake in faith , to eate meate sacrificed vnto idols , and so by consequence to weare a surplice , a cope , a square cap , a shaven crowne , a fryers coule , or a monckes hood , yea or no ? nay , sithence the apostle hath directly , and in plaine termes forbidden the strong in faith , the eating of meate sacrificed vnto idolls ; because of him that shewed it , and for the conscience , not of thine , but of that other which sayeth , this is sacrificed vnto idols ; and if withall , hee have taught , that it is evill , for a man to eate with offence : we demand , by what rule of holy writt , your lordships can assure the conscience of our christian magistrate , and the soules of your assembly in convocation , that his highnes and they shall doe charitably , vprightly , and not sinne , in the sight of the lord , in case by a commandement , ye impose a necessitie of eating meates , or vsing things of like indifferencie , vpon the weake , which the weake , by the apostles doctrine have free libertie , nay rather which by the apostles doctrine they be taught , so longe as they be weake , not to vse . besides , if eating , drinking , appareling , crossing or kneeling , doubtingly & without faith , or with offence , be sinnes against the soule & defilements of the soule , we then pray your ll. to deale plainly with vs , & divinely to teach vs , whether it be an apostolike charitie , to cōmand the doing of a thing which can not be done , either by the weak in faith , but doubtingly ; or by the strong in faith without offence , giving an occasion to fall , or putting a stumbling block before his brother ? but , sirs , by your patience , the christian magistrate doeth not inioyne , neither doeth the clergie in their convocation decree , that the ministers or people , should weare a surplice , make a crosse , or kneele doubtingly and without faith , only his commandement is , that they kneele , that they make a crosse , and that they weare a surplice . yea , by your lordships favour , we demand , whether such their doubting , & such their being without faith , can either be purged by any glister or be dispensed with , by any facultie of humane authoritie ? yea , and whether any humane dispensation , or purgative receipt , may be of such validitie and operation , in foro conscientiae , that it may exempt the patient , or the dispencer in foro conscientiae from sinne , in case hee iudge his apparell , crossings and kneelings , to be vncleane ? for though the christian magistrate , be perswaded through the lord iesus , that there is nothing vncleane of it selfe , yet to him that iudgeth it vncleane , to him it is vncleane . and therefore albeit the christian magistrate may not sinne in his commandement , yet may neither minister nor people , be without sinne , in their obedience . for the conscience only of the cōmander ( be he never so christian ) can not be any warrant for the conscience of him that obeyeth doubtingly . but , sirs , it is their folly , & their wilfull peevishnes , that ( having bene so long a time instructed ) they have no better profited , in the knowledg of their christian libertie , & of the cleanes of the things : ( by my faith ) if they continew weake longe , it were not amisse to bring some of them to the stake . oh! my lords , bona verba quaesumus , soft fire maketh sweet malt , preach faith we beseech your lordships , but swear not by your faith : for by your lordships favour , if the apostle ( having aswel by doctrine as by example taught the weak brethren , among the romans and corinthians , of their christian libertie , did neither reprove them of peevishnes , wilfulnes , or folly , neither yet condemne their ignorance of christian libertie to be a sinne against christ , albeit the same their ignorance , consisted only about the vse of meates , created for the benefit of mans life ; wee desire your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writt , whether ignorance of christian libertie , in the weake of our time , which consisteth about the vse of things dedicated to the service of an idoll , may be a sinne against christ , for not vsing the same , in the worship of the true god ? besides , we demand , by what rule of holy wtitt your lordships in these things may condemne an other mans servant , or iudge his errour of christian libertie in this case , to bee worthy of punishment ? for seeing ye be not able to make him stand , whom god hath left weak , & not inabled to stand : and seeing the apostle did not prescribe vnto the weake brethren of his time , any time for the amendement of their errour , of the not vse of things indifferent , but did rather bind him self & all other , for all ages to come , by his example , never to eate flesh , while the world standeth , that he might not offend his brother , or cause him to fall , or to stumble : the apostle , we say , having appointed no time , no not while the world stādeth in this case , & all others of the same nature , we demand , by what rule of holy writt , your lordships may limite a certaine time , as by the eight , tenth or twelfe moneth for the reformation of iudgment , in this but supposed errour , of not vsing popish apparell , crossings and kneelings ? nay if by the decree & canons of the apostle , both ministers & people , be infranchised , to vse , and not to vse , these things freely & frankly without lett ; we then demand , by what rule of holy writ , it may be lawfull for your synode , by a provinciall ordinance and constitution , to change and to turne this their christian freedome and libertie , into a meere slavish servitude and necessitie ? and therefore we protest from your synod , and avow , that your synode in this case , was not guided by the spirite of christ , and that therevpon it followeth your decrees , ( so many of them ) as abate the edge of charitie , whetted vpon the brethren , by the apostles rule , or bringing into bondage againe , servants manumissed by the authoritie of christ , that the same your decrees are both erroneous in them selves , and iniurious to the church of god. for vnlesse the world have bene dissolved since the apostles tyme , and that the same world , stand not now , which stood then ; or vnles the same be not charitie now , and the same freedome now , which the apostle cōmended for charitie , and left for freedome : or vnles you would have vs , winke with our eyes , least we should see , and stoppe our eares , least wee should heare , and harden our heartes least we should vnderstand , & consequently have no faith , except it be a synodall , a provinciall , or a canturbury-church faith : we must needes speake both what wee have seene , what we have heard , and what we have vnderstood , out of holy scriptures ; namely that some of your synodall decrees be opposite & repugnant to the apostles both christian charitie and christian libertie . for if it be sinne for one brother , to do any acte , by doing whereof an other brothers conscience , is wounded and made weak ; if also whosoever shall wound the weake conscience , of a brother , and sinne against a brother , doth sinne against christ : then of necessitie be your canons of popish rites & ceremonies , both vncharitable canons against your brethren , & sinfull canons against christ . for though it were free for christians to vse copes , surplices , square cappes , crosses , &c. civilly vpon their backes , heads or foreheads ; yet if some remayne ignorant of this libertie , and thinking them to be vncleane , as having bene things offered to the service of an idoll , should by the example of others , with wavering consciences , enterprise to vse them , when inwardly they thinke the vse of them to displease god : if in this case ( we saye ) men shall sinne against christ : how much more shall they sinne against christ , when they shall vse them in the worship of god ? against which vse , they have many testimonies out of holy writt , seated in their consciences by the finger of god , that their vse is altogether vnlawfull in the worship of god. on the other side , if it be no sinne against christ , for weake brethren not to vse either these or any other relickes , monumentes and memorialls of idolatrie ; in the service and worship of the true god : if also the weake in faith can not vse thē waveringly , without sinne against christ , if lastly they have libertie and freedome , by the apostles doctrine , not to vse them at all ; we desire your lordships to resolve vs out of holy writt , how it may be lawfull , in foro conscientiae , to bring weake brethren , before the seates of magistrates , to excommunicate them , to revile them , & to speak all maner of evill against them , for vsing their apostolicall freedome , for being charitable , and for not committing sinne . but , sirs , by your patience , they be not handled after any such maner , simply , and only for not vsing the surplice , not making a crosse , not kneeling in the act of receyving the communion , but for contempt of not vsing and making the same , and not kneeling at the comandement of the christian magistrate , whom not to obey in things indifferent , is to sinne against christ ; and for this sinne they ought to be excommunicated , &c. though this be a maxime in some learning , non solent quae superabundant vitiare scripturas ; yet by your lordships favour , your &c. swelleth to high , and gulleth the passages of a softe spirit overmuch : your argument also of christian magistracy ; at the least three times already vrged , is in this place more then superabundant , as amounting above the third , vnto a fourth degree of comparison . but to the poyntes . and first , because ( as earst hath bene said ) it was the decree , and supplication of your synod that begate this commandement , and not this commandement , that travayled , and brought your synodall decree and supplication to the birth : touching which your synodall decree , for the vse of these ornaments , rites & ceremonies , by the weak , what els is there to be added , then that we deny againe , what in effect , more then once , & twice , we have in this behalfe denied before : namely granting these thinges in their owne nature to be indifferent , and that they may be vsed in the service of god , by them that be strong in faith , & have knowledge of their indifferencie : neverthelesse we deny that by any decree of the church , they may be appointed to be vsed , by the weake , and them that have no knowledge of their indifferencie : for this we have learned of the nature of things indifferent , if the cōscience be strong , that the things be good ; if the conscience be weake , that they bee evill : not in regarde of their owne nature , but in regarde of the conscience of him that iudgeth them to be evill . for as it is not meate it selfe , but the vse of meate , wherevnto the apostle would have men sticke , so is it not apparell , a crosse , or a ceremonie , wherevpon the servantes of christ are to cast their eyes , that they may not be reprehended , by their consciences rightly guyded , for the vse of that thing which they vse ; and how should a conscience bee rightly guyded in the thing which he vseth , vnles he have grounde out of gods worde for the thinge which he vseth ? but he hath ( you will say ) a commaundement of god , to obey the higher powers , in the vse of thinges indifferent . this is true in deed ( saye we ) if they ( having for the guyde of their consciences , the holy worde of god ) shall iudge the thinges , and the vse of the things , for the service wherevnto they bee commaunded , to be indifferent ; but they being not fully perswaded in their myndes , both of the indifferencie of the thinges , and of the vse of the things , in that service wherevnto they bee commaunded , how can your lordships proove , that in this case the church may decree , and the magistrate command them to do an act , in the doing whereof , they shall commit sinne , yea and which they can by no meanes avoyde , if in doing the thing commanded , they stand in doubt . for he that doubteth is condemned , in that he doth , because he doeth it not of faith . and what soever is not of faith , is sinne . wherefore , because no canon , nor decree of the church , can cleanse a mans conscience of the weaknes of faith , or poure strength into the same that he sinne not ; we affirme , that every decree , and canon of your synod , which giveth an occasion of offence , and emboldeneth the weak in faith to sinne , by the vse of these rites and ceremonies , in the worship of god , is a canon and is a decree conteyninge matter in the substance of it , contrary and repugnant to the doctrine of the apostle : and that therefore it is no sinne , for any brother weake in fayth , not to obey the same , though at the request of your synod , it hath pleased our christian magistrate to inioyne him therevnto : because the ground-worke of your decree being sandy , the buylding of the magistrate , can not surely and firmely stande : this your lordships argument therefore of the lawfull vse of indifferent things , by commandement of the christian magistrate , for orders sake , is but a begging of the point in question : for wee hold , that no church , nor christian magistrate , can decree or impose any rites and ceremonies ( being relickes , monuments , or memorialls of idolatrie ) to be vsed , no not for orders sake , in the worship of the true god ; because the vse of all relickes , monumentes , and memorialles of idolatrie , in divine worship , is not a thing , not only not indifferēt , but a thing in all respectes , meerely and absolutely vnlawfull . and therefore it importeth your lordships to proove vnto vs , by some holy writt , the contrary of that which we affirme : namely , that the vse of all relickes , monumentes , and memorialles of idolatrie , ( as thinges indifferent for orders sake ) may be decreed by the church , and inioyned by the christian magistrate , in the worship of god ; what we have alleadged out of holy writt , for the proofe of our generall negative , your lordships have seene and read , and now we wayte and exspect that you would produce your stronge reasons , for the proofe of your generall affirmative . our generall negative is this . no reliques , monumentes , or memorialls of idolatrie may lawfully be decreed by the church , or inioyned by the christian magistrate to be vsed by the ministers and servants of christ , as indifferent rites and ceremonies , for orders sake , in the worship of god : and if none , then not your copes , surplices , crosses , &c. your lordships affirmation . all reliques , monumentes , and memorialls of idolatrie , may lawfullie be decreed by the church and inioyned by the christian magistrate to be vsed by the ministers & servants of christ , as indifferēt rites & ceremonies , for orders sake in the worship of god : and if all , why not then a friers coule , for an archbishop : a monkes hood , for a bishop : a shaven crowne , for a deane ? and a shaven chinne for an archdeacon ? but now alas , alas , to adde and to speake but one worde touching the vse of these rites , &c. appointed by your synod for orders sake , may not we , and all the churches take vp a complaynt , and lamentably cry , saying : alas , alas , what ? was it not possible for your sacred synod assembled ( as you say ) in the name of christ , but that the same must decree popish and idolatrous rites and ceremonies , to be still continued in the church for orders sake ? or was it not possible , for your sacred synod , assembled ( as you say ) in the name of christ , but that the same must needes devise and decree such rites , and ceremonies , for orders sake , as by the vse whereof your weake brethren , the servantes of christ , can not be but tempted , and captiously insnared ? or was it not possible for your synod , to have vsed their iudgement , but to the perill of the soules of their brethren ? but to put occasions of falling and of stumbling , before their brethren ? but by your patience , sirs , we abhorre the popish pollutions of the surplice , of the crosse , and of the idolatrous kneeling to a piece of bread . and as we take not our garmentes , rites , and ceremonies from the papistes , but from their betters , so we professe the detestation of their superstitious abuses , and restore them to their ancient integrity . but by your lordships favour , all men have not knowledge of the idoll , as you have , all mens knowledge among vs doth not edifie , but by their knowledge many men be puffed vp : all men among vs professe not a detestation of their pollutions : all men doe not knowe those betters from whom ( as you say ) they were taken . neither lastly doe all men vnderstande , what that ancient integritie is whereof you speake . the papistes you know , as they daily commit fornication with that great whore , so doe they greatly delite , and much solace them selves , to see their minionly priestes attired in the vnchast colours of their wanton paramoure . nay , with great insolencie and ostentation they vaunt , that crosses , surplices , &c. are to be received and vsed , not as things indifferent , but as necessarie parts of gods divine worship . the atheistes , as they neither embrace the doctrine , nor reverence the person of the minister of christ , much lesse doe they regard from whence ministeriall apparell originally came . only if they live vnder an ordinary , who glorieth to be a ceremonie master , they can then find witt , and opportunitie , and agilitie , and nimblenes ynough , to make vse of these ceremonies , as by them to worke mischief against their godly minister , if at any time them selves be reproved for their drunkennes , whoredome , vsurie , swearing , poperie and such like : but if any of them being of the age of 60. 70. or 80. yeares , shal be willed by their honest ordinarie , to returne home , and to learne of their minister the catechisme , before they prosecute their presentment , for the not wearing of a surplice in this case , rather then they wil be religiously taught the principles of godlines , at their ministers hand , they force not for xxv . yeares space together , to bee wholy silent : liking in the meane while the not wearing of a surplice well ynough . and as for our partes , and others of the religion , we doubt very much whether your lordships be able to prove , that the surplice , the crosse in baptisme , or kneeling in the act of receiving the communion , were by their first originall of any integritie , for an orderly or comely vse of outward divine service or worship , as now they be vsed , yea or no ; for though now they bee vrged as decent and comely signes and ornaments , to the forme of gods worship ; yet if at the beginning they were not for this end and purpose , drawne directly or by consequence , from some expresse commandement of god , but were meerely the devises & inventions of men : then can we not assure our selves , that they be restored , to their ancient integritie . for how should their originall bee of ancient integritie , when they had beginning , not from the will of god , but from the witt of man ? not from the well of life , but from the pitt of death ? when they were not pure , but corrupt , & therefore without integritie ? for which cause we are to beware least we be taken in a snare by them , provoking the lord to anger through the workes of our owne hands . and howsoever these ceremonies be taken from men , better affected to the gospell , then be the papistes : neverthelesse seeing servants ( be they never so young ) are not to be guided by their fellow servants ( be they never so old ) without knowledge of their lord & masters pleasure , first declared vnto them by his prophets or apostles , we pray your lordships to prove vnto vs , out of holy writt , that these ceremonies hold their originall from god. for , if they be not according to the old way , which is the good way , and wherein we are bidd to stand , and to behold , and to aske after it , namely , the testimonie which is bound vp , and the law which is sealed vp among gods disciples , then shall the pastours offend for running about so much , to change their wayes , going after things that doe not profit ; yea ( if they doe not according to this word ) they may iustly be reproved , because their is no light in them . the ancienty then of your ceremonies , let the same be as ancient as possibly ye can devise , yet in respect of the ancient of dayes , and of him that inhabiteth the eternitie , they shal be but novelties , and the author of them but a novelist . for as this saying in the schoole of reason , is true , omne magnum tum est paruum , cum sit aliquid maius ; so is this saying also in the same schoole true , omne vetus tum est novum , cum sit aliquid vetustius . yea and the holy scriptures teach vs , to call those things new , whatsoever man inventeth , be the errour never so old . they have ( saith the holy ghost ) offered vnto devills , not vnto god , but to gods whom they knew not : new gods , that came newly vp , whom their fathers feared not ; and in an other place , they are pronounced to be accursed when they turne after other gods , which they have not known , whereby also is reproved the vanitie and fondnes of those men , which leave that which is certeine , to follow that which is vncerteine . if the apostle then , the first and most ancient father of all the children whom he begate with the word of the gospell , and the planter of all the churches among the gentils , never knew those or any the like rites , ornaments , or ceremonies , much lesse never knew them to be for any decent and orderly forme of gods worship , in any of the churches which he begate , and which he planted ; it must needes follow ( as wee conceave ) that the children of the church , ( who devised and appointed these rites and ceremonies , for an orderly and decent forme of gods worship , in the ages succeeding the apostles ) left the ancient integritie together with the certaine and single forme of gods worship , setled in the apostolicall churches , without any ministeriall apparrell , crossings or kneelings in the act of receiving the communion : and so following their owne hearts , became novelistes vnto the apostles , in these vncerteine and new found ceremonies . neither for the poynt in question is it materiall , whether they were children , next and immediatly succeeding the apostles , yea or no : for so soone as they declined from that integritie , & simple maner of gods worship , and from that certeyntie , wherein the apostle left the churches , even so soone was their vncerteyne and newly start vp forme of gods worship corrupt and impure : for when the lord hath once spoken wordes , and doeth add no more , thereby we are taught , by his example , to lay our handes vpon our mouthes , to bee content with his word , and to add nothing of our owne . yea and we bee warned to beware , least our heartes deceyve vs , and least we turne aside by devisinge foolish inventions , according to our owne fantasies . wherefore your lordships argument , of such ancientie , and of such integritie of these ceremonies , as declineth from that ancient , and in al poyntes and qualities certeyne and vpright forme of gods worshippe practised without copes , surplices , crosses , and kneelings in the acte of receyving the communion , by the apostle in all the churches planted by his ministerie , argueth rather corruption and noveltie , then eyther any ancientie or integritie . and therefore we pray your lordships , that hereafter you would be advised by vs , not to license your scribes and prolocutors , to cast an imputation of noveltie vpon the ministers of christ : or to vpbrayde them with that odious and reprochfull name of novelistes : least for their safegard , and iust defence in this behalfe , they be constreyned to pray for remedy , protection , & ayde from our sovereigne lord king iames : that by a writ of errour , out of the recordes of the high court of parliament , to be graunted vnto them , they may procure the reversing , and adnihilating of your worthie orators , their vniust and novelous accusatiō : for vnlesse it should seeme a small matter , in your lordships sight , to vpbrayd our sovereigne lord the king , his nobles and commons of both realmes , with a blemish of being novelistes , and to be complotters of novelties , for that his highnes , and they , by al good counselles , endevour , that the english , and scottish nations , should bee vnited into one people , and be restored to their first and ancient name of brittans : and that the two realmes , england and scotland , as in most ancient time should be called by the name of great brittany , vnles ( we say ) it should seeme a small matter , in your eyes , to traduce the king , his nobles and commons , in this case , of being novelistes , wee pray your lordships to beare with vs ; if we tell you playne , that for our partes we can not throughly discerne , with what honestie your scribes be indowed , when as in their pamphlettes , they blaze the ministers of christ to be novelistes . which ministers notwithstanding hate nothing more then noveltie , and crave nothing so much as that the most certeyne and most single forme of gods worship , left to the churches , by the apostle , without your many , and vncerteyne rites and ceremonies , might be restored , to her primative , and apostolicall ancientie , and integritie . god save king iames . faults eschaped in the print . pag. 6. lin . 6. is for it . pag 6. li. 10. followe , for followe . pag. 17. li. à fine 8. oovet , for covet . pag. 18. li. à fine 7. prohibition , for prohibition . pag 24. li. 4. outward , for outward . pag. 26. ad marg . li. 2. numb . 21. 8. 9. pag. 27. marg kin 10. 10 , for 16 10. pag. 42. li. 12. comn : and , for command . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a69195-e250 the like demande wee make concerning the command of the church . the like demande wee make of the abilitie of the church . 1. ki. 20. 41. 1. sam. 9. 1● obiection . 1. sā . 28. 14 isa . 20. 1. zech. 13. 4. math. 3. 4. answers . 1 chro. 23. 6 1 chro. 25. 1. 1 chro. 26. 20. 1 chro. 9. ●2 . 2 chro. 19. 25. exo. 28. 12 29. 30. 35. 41. 43. eze. 42 , 13. 14. eze. 44. 15. 17. 18. 19. ezek. 42. eze. 44. 15. 17. 18. 19. 1 chro. 15. num. 4. 15. a 1. chr. 15 17. 19. b 1. chro. 16 37. c 1. chro. 45. 16. d 1. chro. 16. 41. e 1. chr. 6. 32. f 2. chro 5. 12. obiection . answere . bishops . gentl. bishops . gentl. ●ishops . gentl. deut. 7. 25. deut , 7. 26. deut. 13. 17 isa . 44. 9. esa . 30. 22. 1 cor. 10. 7 ● iohn . 5. 2● act. 11. deu. 12. 30 31 deu. 14. ● . 2 1. cor. 6. 14 15. 16 rev. 17 1. 2 revel . 20. 4 deut. 12. 30. 31. 2 ki. 1● . 3. 4 bishops . gentl. 2. k● . 18. 4. bb. gentl. 2. ki. 10. 10 2. ki. 29. 5● 15. 16. 17 2. ki. 17. 15 8. 11. 12. 40. bb. gentl. bishops . gentl. bishops . gentl. bb. gentl. treat : of ceremon : sect . 3. exod. 20 isa . 44. 9. ierem. 10 ▪ 14. 15. 17 isa . 29 , 13 math. 15. 8. constitut . & ca. published 1604. com . 4. 10. bishops . gentl. bishops . gentl. bishops . gentl. bb. gentl. ● cor. 14. 40. bb. gentl. 1 cor. 14. 4● bb. gentl. ●om . 13. bishops . gentl. const . 27 mar. 14. 18. isa . 21. 1. 2 bb. gentl. levi. 18. 3. 19. 27. 2. cor. 6. 14 15. 16. bb. gentl. lord bishop of lincolae ● 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 25. h. 8. c. 19. iudg. 7. 3. reve. 11. 3. 4. 5. rom. 14. 15. rom. 14. 20. 21. rom. 14. 13. 1. cor. 8. 13. bishops . gentl. 1. chron. 13. 2. title , admonition to simple men . 1. cor. 10 28. bishops . gentl. rō . 14. 14 bb. gentl. rom. 14. 1. cor. 8. cor. 10. 28. bb. gentl. rō . 14. 23 bb. genel . in a libell cast out in london against one of the sherifes and certaine ministers . bishop horne . deut. 31. 28 ierem. 16 isai . 8. 16 iere. 2. 8. 36 isa . 16. 20 deu. 32. 17 deut. 27. 5. deut. 9. 12. deut. 5. 22. deu. 11. 16 a iust and necessarie apologie of certain christians, no lesse contumeliously then commonly called brownists or barrowists. by mr. iohn robinson, pastor of the english church at leyden, first published in latin in his and the churches name over which he was set, after translated into english by himself, and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen apologia justa et necessaria quorundum christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum brownistarum sive barrowistarum. english robinson, john, 1575?-1625. 1625 approx. 178 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a10834 stc 21108 estc s102955 99838714 99838714 3102 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a10834) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 3102) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1152:09) a iust and necessarie apologie of certain christians, no lesse contumeliously then commonly called brownists or barrowists. by mr. iohn robinson, pastor of the english church at leyden, first published in latin in his and the churches name over which he was set, after translated into english by himself, and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen apologia justa et necessaria quorundum christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum brownistarum sive barrowistarum. english robinson, john, 1575?-1625. [72] p. successors of g. thorp], [amsterdam : printed in the yeere of our lord m.dc.xxv. [1625] a translation of: robinson, john. apologia justa et necessaria quorundum christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum brownistarum sive barrowistarum. place of publication and printer from stc. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic 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understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brownists -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. 2004-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-06 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-06 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a ivst and necessarie apologie of certain christians , no lesse contumeliously then commonly called brownists or barrowists . by mr. iohn robinson , pastor of the english church at leyden , first published in latin in his and the churches name over which he was set , after translated into english by himself , and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen . psal. 41. 2. o blessed is he that prudently attendeth to the poore-weakling . printed in the yeere of our lord m.dc.xxv . a iust and necessarie apologie . the cryme of heresy none ought patiently to indure , sayd ierom of ould ; and that not without cause : for whereas in other accusations , eyther a mans goods , or good name , or bodily life , at the most , is indaungered ; in this , the life of the soul ( which fayth is ) commeth in question . but well it is for the servants of iesus christ , that they have him ( their gratious lord , and saviour ) for their iudg : by whose alone judgment ( notwithstanding all mens prejudices ) they shall stand , or fall for ever . and , if any others any where , surely i , and they with me , have need to get this divine comfort deeplie printed in our hearts ; whose profession giues occasion to many , as doth our condition liberty unto all , to spare no severitie of censure upon us . four sorts of heavie freinds we have found , and felt in sorrowfull experience wheresoever we have become . the first whereof is the unhallowed multitude , who living without god in the world ; and walking themselvs perversly , and in the workes of darknes , cannot but hate , as the light it self , so all those , who haue receaved grace of god , to walke therein with good conscience . and as the apostles in their dayes were everie where most vexed with the hatred of the unbeleeving iewes , their own countrymen ; so are we by the like of ours like mynded . of whom whilst the most do want their countrie for causes so unlike unto ours , no marvayl though there be no better concurrance of eyther affection , or action between us . the second is of them , who are enamoured on that romish hierarchie , as on a stately , and potent ladie . against which , and for the holy presbyteriall government , as christs institution by his apostles , whilst we doe in word and deed , give a free , & full testimonie ; alasse , with how many , and how great waves of affliction are we overwhelmed by their ●atred , and power ? dem●trius of ephesus , with his silver-smiths , was of all other men , to the apostle paul ( opposing himself to the majestie of diana , and the●● profit withall ) the most infestuous . and who will marvayl , if we nothing obsequio●s to the hierarchicall diana ( in her self , magnificent enough , & enough advantageable unto hers ) be abhominable unto this kinde of people , aboue all others , even atheists , papists and most flagitious persons not excepted , whom they haue devout enough , and over , unto that goddesse . a third kinde is of those , who so servily inbondage themselues , and their consciences , either to the edicts of princes , or to the determinations of certaine doctors , or to both these jointly , as that they think nothing well done in case of r●ligion , which eyther these teach not , or they commaund not : and on the other side , almost any thing warrantable , which is commended by the one of them , or commaunded by the other . and as of these some are so transported with wa●pish zeale , as they can scarcely without a fit of an ague , eyther speak to , or think of him , who a litle steps out of their troad ; so others of them are so cunning , and wote so well how to make their market , that though they be indeed almost like mynded with us in all things , yet do they vehemently affect unchristian emnitie with us : not because they themselues judge us so deserving ; but others , whom therein they think it a poynt of their wisdom to gratify . the fourth , and last sorte are they , who through credulitie , and lightnes of beleif haue their ears open to the false , and feigned suggestions of slaunderous tongues . these men whilst they are over good , and easie towards the evill , and injurious , unto whom they give credence ; become injurious themselus to the good , and innocent : though in truth it be hard to say , unto which of three they doe the greatest wrong ▪ whether to their brethren , of whom they causelesly conceaue amisse , whilst either they greedily devour , or easily receave such false reports , & vituperies , as venemous tongues spit out against them : or to their own souls , which they thereby make accessorie to others mallice : or to the calumniators themselus , whom they put in heart to go bouldly on in reproaching the innocent , whilst they know , where to finde receavers for their slaunders , as do theeues for their stoln goods . now , alasse , what sufficient bulwark of defence haue we ( poore people ) to oppose unto the violence of so many , and mightie adversaries ? first , and most ( as a brazen wall ) 〈◊〉 cons●●ence before god , and men ( so farre as humain frailtie will permit ) pure , and unsteyned . next , thine equanimitie joyned with wisdom ( godly , and christian reader ) : for whose cause we haue pe●●ed , and published this our just , and necessarie defence : lest being circumvented by prejudice , thou mayst happen to hate that whereof thou art ignorant : then which nothing in tertullians judgment , is more uniust , no not though the thing in it self iustly deserue hatred . by this we do earnestly crave , that ( as thou safely mayst , so ) thou wilst ingenuously passe sentence upon us , and our profession and not by the unsavourie reportes eyther in word , or writing , of our adversaries whomsoever : who do most commonly take libertie to suggest against us ( underlings , ) not what in truth & conscience they should ; but what eyther fame reporteth , or ignorance suspecteth , or mallice inventeth , or proud contempt deems suiteing with our meannes and simplicitie . two opprobries ( amongst others infinite ) haue beene of late by our adversaries cast upon us ; by which we are not onely occasioned , but after a sorte necessitated to the publishing of this our apologie : lest by not resuting such criminations ( so great , and greivous ) we should seeme to acknowledg a cryme , as cyprian speaketh . the former , by some of those , who in our owne countrie , are reputed the cheif masters and patrons both of religion & truth : by whom there hath been , not a flying bruit spread amongst the multitude ; but a solemn accusation to them in speciall authoritie , framed against us : first , that we ( lewd brownists ) do refuse , and reject one of the sacraments : secondly , that we haue amongst us no ecclesiasticall ministrie , but doe giue libertie to everie mechanicall person to preach publiquely in the church . thirdly , that we are in errour about the verie trinitie . fourthly , and lastly , that being become so odious to the magistrates here , as that we are by violence to be driven the countrie , we are now constreyned to seek some other , and farr parte of the world to settle in . the other contumelie is in a duch rhime without name , framed it may be , ( and as commonly it comes to passe ) between the cup and the wall , as sayth the proverb . this balad-maker comparing the receaved religion in the dutch churches to a tree : the sectaries in the countrie ( of which he nameth not a few ) to certayn beasts endeavouring this trees ruine , and overthrow , likens the brownists to a litle worme , gnawing at the root thereof ; and not having lesse will , but lesse power to hurte , then the residue . wee are indeed wormes and not men , the reproach of men , and despised of the people , whom high and low , and all that will , may without daunger , tread , and trample under foot . but to giue thee satisfaction ( christian and indifferent reader ) whosoever thou art , that chusest rather to take knowledg of mens innocencie , then to condemn the same unknown ; and that it may appear unto thee , how alike unhonest our adversaries are in their accusations , though of unlike condition in themselus , we do professe before god and men , that such is our accord in the case of religion , with the duch reformed churches , as that we are ready to subscribe to all , and everie article of faith in the same church , as they are layd down in the harmonie of confessions of fayth , published in their name : one onely particle ( and the same not of the greatest weight ) in the sixth article , touching the scriptures , being conveniently interpreted , and conformably to it self , & the generall judgment of the learned amongst them . the scope of the article is , ( as appears in the margent ) to distinguish between the books canonicall , and apocriphall , as they are called . touching which apocryphall notwithstanding it is judged , and affirmed , that they may be read in the church . which if it be meant of their private reading by the members of the church , we willingly assent : if of publique , pastorall , and ecclesiasticall reading , we are indeed otherwise mynded : neither admit we any other books to that dignitie in the church , then such as were penned by the holy men of god , moved by the holy ghost . 2 pet. 1 , 21. and as the apostle iames testified of the iewes , that they had moses read in the synagogue everie sabbath day : so we think it sufficient for the christian assemblyes , that with moses christ , that is , the books of the new testament be joyned with the old , and they alone be read . neither need we seek further , or for other arguments to confirme our opinion , then the article it self affoardeth us . the words thereof are these : moreover , we put a difference between the holy writings , and those which they call apocryphal , to wit , so as the apocryphall may indeed 〈◊〉 read in the church , & that it may be lawfull to take instructions from ●hem , so far sorth , as they agree with the canonicall books : but such 〈…〉 hand is their authoritie , or firmnes , that upon their testimonie any doctrine of faith , and christian religion may be founded , much lesse that they haue force to infringe , or weaken the others authoritie . and first , if the apocriphall books be publiquely read in the church , as well as the canonicall , the difference which in word is professed , seems indeed by this so reading them , to be taken away : since the selfe same religious act ( viz. publique reading ) is performed about the one and other , although not altogether to the same end . and if publique reading of the canonicall scriptures be commanded of god in his worship , either the reading of these apocripha books is a parte of gods worship also , ( which the belgick churches do not beleiv ) or els they must be unlawfull to be read publiquely in the church , especially comming together for that onely end of worshipping god. publiquely , i say ; for the private reading of them , as of other books , comes not under the respect of worship properly , but of an act , and exercise preparati●● unto worship , as both law●ers , and divines speak . secondly , in this verie article , the canonicall bookes , as opposed to the apocriphall , are called holy writeings . the apocriphall then are not holy , as not being hallowed to this end , that is not commaunded of god in the holy writeings of the prophets , and apostles . now what haue the holy assemblies to do , especially convening , and meeting together for the solemn worship of god , and exercising themselus in the same , with books not holy , that is , not hallowed , or injoyned of god , for his most holy service● thirdly , seeing these books are apocriphall , that is , hidden , and concealed , their verie name may put them in minde of their duetie in concealing themselvs within the vaile of privacie . and surely no small immodestie it is in them , which ought to conteyn themselus in private use , and interteynment , thus bouldly to presse into publique assemblie . they must therefore change either their names , or their manners ; as women by their sex , so they by their name , well expressing their nature , are inhibited all libertie of speaking in the church . i●d , and conclude out of our countrie-man m. broughton , that those apocriphall books are so stuffed with trifles , fables , lyes and superstitions of all sorts ; that the midle place between the ould and new testament , as ill becomes them , as it would do a turkish slaue , and leaper , between two the noblest princes of all europe . but to return whence i dig●essed . seing that ( as appears in the preface ) the intention of the belgick churches was , as in divulging their confession , to render a reason of the hope , which is in them , and plainly to make known their perswasion in the matter of fayth ; so also in publishing the harmony of confessions , to giue all men to understand , and take knowledg of that most near conjunction which they haue with the sacred , and truely catholique church of god , and all the holy and sound members thereof : by what tight , or rather injurie could we be excluded from the followship of the same churches , who do 〈◊〉 better accorde , and have greater congruitie with them in the matter of fayth & religion , then the greatest part of those , whose confessions they do publi●● to the veiw of all men , as the congnissance , and badges of their christian consociation ? and with what conscience of a christian , or rather licentiousnes of a rhymer , could that adversarie traduce us to the world , as endeavoring the ruine of the reformed churches ? but perhaps , that which may be , is suspected to be by some , ( which also the false accuser doth insinuate in his libell against us ) and that , what in word we professe , we denye in deed ; and what we would seem to build with our tongues , we do , as it were , with our hands pull down . if so it be , and that in deed we be found to be such , i doe freely confesse , that no censure upon us can be too severe , no hatred more greivous then we do deserv . now the guilt of this evill must cleav unto our fingers , if at all , one of these two wa●es , either in regard of our selvs , or of the reformed churches . for our selvs , and our course of life , ( for necessitie compelleth , as it were foolishly to bable out that , wherein modestie perswadeth silence ) and how we converse with god , and men , whether publiquely in the church , or privately in the family , we refuse not , by the grace of god bestowed upon frayl creatures , labouring of the same humain infirmities with other men , the search and censure of our most bitter adversaries , if not destitute of all , both honestie , and wisdom . touching the reformed churches , what more shall i say ? we account them the true churches of iesus christ , and both professe , & practise communion with them in the holy things of god , what in us lyeth ; their sermons such of ours frequent , as understand the dutch tongue ; the sacraments we do administer unto their known members , if by occasion any of them be present with us ; their distractions , and other evils we do seriously bewayl , and do desire from the lord their holy , and firm peace . but happily , it wil be objected , that we are not like-mynded with them in all things , nor do approve of sundry practises in use amongst them , if not by publique institution ( which it seems they want ) yet by almost universall consent , and uniform custome . i graunt it ; neither doubt i , but that there are many godly , and prudent men in the same churches , who also dislike in effect the things which we doe : and amongst other things , this mal●part , and unbridled bouldnes of unskilfull men , who make it a very may-game to passe most rash censure upon the fayth , and so by consequence , upon the eternall salvation of their brethren , and to impeach their credit , whom they neither do , nor perhaps willingly would know : lest that which they lust to condemn unknown , they should be constreyned to allow , if they once knew it : and withall to disallow that , into which they themselvs haue been led formerly by common errour of the times . which maladie is also so frequent , and ordinarie , as that it may truely be said of many , that they then think themselus most acceptable unto god , when they can make their brethren ( differing from them in some smaller matters ) most odious unto men . this rageing plague except the lord god in mercie asswage , and bend the mindes of godly , and modest men ( the ministers of his word ) to put to their helping hand that way , it wi● without all doubt , come to passe , ( which god forbid ) that the multitude of christians will come to judg of their estate with the lo●● not so much by the christian vertues , which themselvs indeed have as which they imagine others want . but that it may appear unto thee ( christian reader ) wherein 〈◊〉 do dissent from the dutch reformed churches , and upon wha● grounds : and that none may take occasion of suspicion , that the things are either greater , or more absurd , for which those hateful● brownists are had by many in such detestation , then indeed an● truth they are , i will breifly , as i can , present unto thy christian vei● either all , or the most , & our greatest differences , with the ground● thereof . chap. i. of the largenes of churches . and first , it is evident , that the most , especially cittie-churches , are so great and populous , as that two or three dive● temples are not sufficient for one , and the same church to meet● at once . we on the contrarie , so judg , that no particular churc● under the new testament , ought to consist of more members , the● can meet together in one place ; because , 1. the holy scriptures speaking definitely of the politicall , or ministeriall , commonly called , visible church , instituted by christ and his apostles , by his power , understand none other then on● congregation convening , and comming together , ordinarie at least in one place . math. 18 , 17 , 20. gathered together in my name : wi●● 1 corinth . 5 , 4. when you are come together . act. 2 , 44. al● that beleeved were together : and chap. 5 , 12. they were all with one accord in salomons porch . also chap. 6 , 2 , 5. and chap. 13 , 1 , 2. with ●4 , 27. and 14 , 23. with tit. 1 , 5. act. 15 , 4 , 22 , 25. and 21 , 22. so 1 corinth . 11 , 20. when yee therefore come together in one , to wit place , not minde , as some conceipt , for from that the corinthians were to far : and lastly chap. 14 , 23. if the whole church come together into some place . 2. there is then had the most full , and perfit communion of the body in the holy things of god , which is the next and immediate end of the visible church , when all the members thereof do convene , and assemble together in some one place . and if nature , as philosophers teach , ever intend that which is most persit , much more grace . now that the church ( commonly called visible ) is then most truely visible indeed , when it is assembled in one place ; and the communion thereof then most full , and intire , when all its members inspired , as it were , with the same presence of the holy ghost , do from the same pastor , rec●av the same provocations of grace , at the same time , and in the same place : when they all by the same voice , ( banding as it were together ) do with one accord pour out their prayers unto god : when they all participate of one , and the same holy bread ; and lastly , when they all together consent unanimously , either in the choice of the same officer , or censuring of the same offender , no man admitting a due thought of things , can make doubt of . 3. we have the apostle paul giving it in charge to the elders of everie particular church ( as was that of ephesus ) that they take heed unto al the flock , whereof the holy ghost made them bishops , or overseers , to feed the church of god , which he hath purchased with his own blood . but surely , as that flock is verie inordinate , if not monstrous , which for the largenes thereof , neither ever doth , nor possibly can feed together ; so that sheepheard of the lords flock seemeth not aright , and as he ought , to fulfill his charge , which doth not at the least , everie lords day , minister unto the same , the wholesom food of gods word . ad hereunto , that in these huge and vast flocks , the governers cannot take knowledg of the manners of the people private , or publick ; no nor so much , as of their presence at , or absence from the church assemblies : whereby what domage cometh unto true pietie , any man may easily conjecture , and miserable experience makes too too manifest in the reformed churches . i conclude therefore , since ( as iunius sayth ) it concerneth the pastour throughly to know the church committed unto him , the persons , their works and courses , without the knowledg of which things , he shall profit them no more then a tincking cymball , &c. that it were a point of good provision both for the conscience of the officers , and edification of the people , that a division were made of the cittie-churches , which by continuall accession of members , are thus grown out of kinde , into different , and distinct congregations , under their certain , and distinct pastours , and elders . if any object , that there is one visible , and catholick church , comprehending as the parts thereof , all the particular churches , and severall congregations of divers places ; as there is one ocean , or sea , dive●sly called , according to the divers regions by whose shores it passeth ; and that therefore this matter is not worth labour spending about it , i answer , first , that the catholick church neither is , nor can be called visible : since onely things singular are visible , and discerned by sence : whereas universals , or things catholick , are either onely in the understanding , as some are of minde , or as others think better , are made such , to wit universals , by the understanding , abstracting from them all circumstanstiall accidents , considering that the kindes intelligible have their existence in nature , that is in the individuals . 2. the catholick church , with due reverence unto learned ned men be it spoken , is verie unskilfully said to be one , as the sea is one . for , first , it is expressedly said gen. 1 , 9 , 10. that the waters which were under the heauens , were gathered into one place , or conceptacle , which god called sea , or seas . but the catholick church , which is said to comprehend al particular congregations in her bosom , is not gathered together into one place , nor ever shall be , before the glorious coming of christ. 2. the ocean is a body so continued , as that all , and everie part thereof is continually fluent , so as the self same waters , which in their flux do make one sea , do in their reflux by contrarie windes , make another , and so contrariewise . but thus to affirm of particular churches , and their materiall constitutive cause , were most absurd . 3. if some one particular sea were drawn drie , or should fail his course , a disturbance of all the rest would necessarily follow ; but and if the sea should in divers places at once happen to be exhausted , or drawn drie , there would then be a fayling of the ocean : neither were the waters now gathered into one place , neither made they one sea , and body of water , either continued , or conjoyned . but now , on the other side , upon the defection , or dissipation of this or that particular church , no such impediment should come in the way , but that the rest might hould their full course , as before . yea , i adde moreover , if all , and everie particular assembly in the world should languish , and fall away , ( one onely excepted ) that ( onely ) one did still remain the true , & entire church of christ , without any either subordination , or coordination , or dependencie spirituall , save unto christ alone . the reason is plain , because this singular , and sole assembly may under christ the head , use , and enjoy everie one of his institutions : the communion of saints combyned together in solemn , and sacred covenant , the word of god , sacraments , censures , and ministrations whatsoever by christ appointed , and therewith the same christs most gratious presence . and upon this ground it is , that the apostle paul doth intitle the particular congregation , which was at corinth , and which properly , and immediately he did instruct , and admonish , to the body of christ , the temple of god , and one virgin espoused to one housband christ. we may not therefore under pretence of antiquitie , unitie , humain prudence , or any colour whatsoever , remove the auncient bounds of the visible and ministeriall church , which our right fathers , to wit , the apostles , have set , in compar●son of whom , the most ancient of those , which are so called , are but infants , and beardlesse , as one truely , and wittily sayth . there is indeed one church , and as the apostle speaketh , one bodie , as one spirit , one hope of our calling , one sayth , one baptism ; that is , of one kinde , and nature ; not one in number , as one ocean . neither was the church at rome in the apostles dayes , more one with the church of corinth , then was the baptism of peter one with pauls baptism , or then peter , and paul were one . neither was peter or paul more one , whole , intire , and perfit man ( consisting of their parts essentiall , and integrall ) without relation unto other men ; then is a particular congregation ( rightly instituted , and ordered ) a whole , intire , and perfit church immediately , and independently , in respect of other churches , under christ. to conclude , since the pastor is not a minister of some part of a church , but of the whole particular church , act. 20 , 28. attend to the whole flock , or church , whereof the holy ghost hath made you bishops &c. if the ministers office be to be confined within the circle of a particular congregation , then also the ministeriall church it self . now the pastors office is either circumscribed within these bounds , or els the angell of the church of ephesus was also the angell of the church of s●●rna ; and so the pastour of this church is also the pastour of that ; and by consequence , of all ; that is , everie pastour is an universall bishop , or pope by office , if not for exeq●ution , yet for power ; according to which power , we are to judg of the office . what then ? will some man say . is it not lawfull for a pastour to exequute his pastorall office but in the congregation over which he is set ? i answer with the apostle no man taketh this honour unto himself , but he that● is called of god , as aaron , hebr. 5 , 3 , 4. it is not lawfull for thee ( reverend brother ) to do the work of a pastour where thou art no pastour , lest thou arrogate to thy self that honour , which apperteyns not unto thee . thou art called , that is elected , and ordeyned a pastour of some particular church , and not of all churches . it is not onely lawfull , but requisite , that the pastour of one church ( or ●aither he that is the pastour ) and so any other member , imparte the gift either spirituall , or bodily , which he hath receaved , to other churches , out of the common bond of charitie , in which he is obliged : not so , to exequute a publique office over them by the prerogative of authoritie , which he hath not but onely over his owne . we will illustrate this by a similitude . any citizen of leyd●n may enjoy certain priveledges in the cittie of delph , by vertue of the politick combination of the united provinces , and cittie , under the supream heads thereof the states generall ; which he is bound also to help and assist with all his power if necessitie require ; but that the ordinarie magistrate of leyden should presume to exequute his publique office in the cittie of delph , were an insolent , and unheard of usurpation . the verie same , and not otherwise , is to be said of pastors , and particular churches , in respect of that spirituall combination mutuall under their chief , and sole lord iesus christ. chap. ii. of the administration of baptism . the dutch reformed churches ( as is evident by their practise compared with then profession ) are neither so true unto their own grounds , as they ought , neither do they so well provide for the dignitie of the thing , whilst they administer the sacrament of baptism to the infants of such , as are not within the covenant , nor have either parent a member of any church , because 1. baptism now ( as circumcision of ould ) is the seal of the covenant of god with the faythfull , and their seed , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed . genes . 17 , 9. and the seal of the righteousnes of fayth . rom. 4 , 11. and is one , as there is one sayth , and one baptism . ephes. 4 , 4 , 5. and therefore ought not to be administred to others , then those within the compasse of the same covenant : nor but upon fayth coming between , either of the partie to be baptized , or of one parent at the least . if any shall answer , that this gratious promise of god is not to be restreined to the next immediate children , but is extended euen to those , who follow a fa●r off , i grant it , except infidelitie , or other sin come between ; by which the parents with themselvs break off their seed externally & actually from the cōmunion of the church , & holy things thereof . and if we be not to insist in the next , and immediate parent , why in the grand-father , or great-grand-father , and so for the rest , till we climbe up , as high , as to no●h himself ? whereupon it should follow , that not the infants of iewes , nor of turks , no nor of gentiles neither , should have baptism denyed them . surely the grace of christ must needs be universall , and wherein all have interest , if the seal thereof apperteyn unto all . neither should the church ( amongst whose sacred furniture baptism is ) by this rule be any more the house of god , peculiar to his children and servants ; but more like a common in , whose doore stands wide open to all that passe by the high way . 2. the apostle 1 corinth . 7 , 14. upon this ground , that the one parent is a beleever , avoweth the childe holy : which otherwise he pronounceth impure , in respect of the covenant , and holynes thereof ( leaving unto god his secret judgments ) . now what have the impure , and unhallowed to do with the holy things of god ? and what hath the pastour , and sheepheard in holy things to do with them , who are no portion of the lords flock ? what have i to doe ( sayth the apostle ) to judg them that are without ? do not ye judg them that are within ? so ( reverend brethren ) what have you to do , to baptize them that are without ? do you not baptize them that are within , and them alone ? in the number of whom yet you reckon not those infants ( though baptized by you ) nor belonging to your charge . whence also ( god knoweth ) it cometh to passe , for the most part , that they who are thus by you baptized into the name of the lord , are by their godlesse parents education made the servants of sathan . 3. the baptism of infants , in all soundnes of judgment , serveth , and that immediately for the comfort of their godly parents ; whose hearts it filleth with no small joy , whilst they behould the gratious promise of god made to them and their seed , ratified and confirmed by this seal : even as of ould the circumcision of isaak was granted , and injoyned by god unto abraham his , and our father , first and immediately , for the confirmation of his fayth . whence i conclude , that the seal of the righteousnes of faith ( which baptism is ) doth no more belong to the seed of godlesse parents , then doth the comfort flowing from the righteousnes of fayth unto the parents themselvs . whom as it would effectually move to more serious , and sad thoughts of their own estate with god , if they beheld their infants ( so dear unto them ) excluded thorough their default from the comfortable ●eal of gods covenant ; so can they not but , by the undue administration of the same , take occasion of hardening themselvs in their accustomed perversnes . i conclude then with tertullian speaking ( as iunius interprets him ) of the children of such , as were strangers from the covenant of god , let them come , when they are grown to year●s ; let them when they have learned , and are taught wherefore they come ; let them then be made christians , when they can know christ. chap. iii. of written leyturgies . vve cannot but mislike that custome in use , by which the pastour is wont to repeat and read out of a prayer-book certayn formes , for his and the churches prayers , and that for these reasons , 1. because this externall mean and manner of worshiping god in prayer is no where found in the written word , ( by the prescript whereof alone he is to be worshipped ) whatsoever either the iewes fable of the leyturgie of ezra ; or the papists of s. peters , or s. iames leyturgies . yea , contrariwise , i add for overplusse , that it did not seem good to the apostles , the last penmen of the 〈◊〉 . ghost , that any such prescript form for such end should come in use , in the churches . and this seemeth unto me verie clear , from the former epistle of paul to timothy , chap. 2 , 1 , 2. the kings of the earth in those dayes , and such as were in authoritie under them , being , as it were , so many sworn enemies of the name of christ , this conceipt might easily ( and it seems did ) creepe into the mindes of divers christians , that these kindes of men were raither to be prayed against , then for , by the servants of christ. and now , what was the medicine prescribed by the apostle for this malad●e in that epistle written to timothy for that verie end , that he might know how to converse in the church of god ? did he now either send timothy to any leyturgie formerly let forth for his own and others da●●tion ? or did he himself frame any for the purpose , whose b●●ten troad the churches following afterwards should not erre ? nothing lesse : although a more ●it , and full occasion for that busines scarce be offered : which without doubt , paul would ●o more have l●t slip , th●n did the other apostles , th●t which was more light , for the introduction of deacons , if ●t had seemed good to th● h. ghost ( by whose singe● he was guided in the ordering of the churches ) that any such book-prayer should have come into use . three things especially are objected , which must here be cleared . the first is , that david , and other prophets penned the book of psalmes for the mother church of israell . the second , that christ himself delivered to his disciples a certain form of prayer , commonly called , the lords prayer . the third , that moses from the lord numb . 6. gave direction to aa●on , and his sonnes , in what form of words they should blesse the children of israel . i answer first generally , that the consequence followeth not from the authoritie of christ , and of moses , and of the apostles , in ordeyning these , and these forms of divine worship , for the like authoritie in ordinance bishops , and pastours , to ordeyn other , and divers forms , for the same end . what can be spoken more insolently ? christ the lord , moses , the prophets , and apostles being immediately , and infallibly guided by the spirit of christ , have prescribed certain set formes of gods worship ; therefore others though not immediately and infallibly guided by the same spirit , may also prescribe them . why may they not by this argumentation , as well frame us a new canon of holy scriptures , considering that even th●se verie formes , wherewith also they equalize their own , are parts , and portions of the same scriptures . more particularly . and first for psalms . i deny that there is th● same reason of a prayer , and of a psalm ; or ( whereupon the difference hangeth ) that singing , and praying are all one . for the question is not , which i desire the reader once for all to bea●●●n minde ) eyther of the internall affection of him which singeth , or prayeth , or of the subject matter of the song or prayer : but of the externall act , and exercise of praying and singing . now these two exercises both the holy scriptures , and common sence in everie man , that pleaseth but to open his eyes , and look upon them , do plainly difference . for first , if to sing be to pray , then whosoever singeth prayeth : but how far from truth this is , the psalmes of david , 1 , 2 , and many others in which not the least parcell of prayer is to be found , do plainly evince . 2. is any man sad amongst you , ( sayth the apostle ) let him pray : is he merry let him sing . to pray then , and to sing , are not the same , nor which do agree ( to wit primarily ) with the same constitution of the minde . 3. in prayer the pastours voyce is onely heard , unto which the people , as the apostle teacheth , are to add their ame● but in singing , all the multitude have as well their part for tunable voice , as the pastour himself . neyther can divers possibly sing together , without confusion , but by a certain , and set form both of words , and syllables : which yet may be done in church prayer , and is everie where . 4. we have the same apostle els where teaching us thus : speaking to your selvs in psalms , hymnes and spiritual songs , &c. and again , let the word of christ dwell in you plenteously , with all wisdom , teaching and admonishing yourselvs mutually in psalms hymns , &c. in singing then we doe speak to our selvs , or one to another mutually : but in praying , neither to our selvs , nor to our brethren , but unto god alone . and the reason hereof is evident . when as we read or sing the psalms of david ( for what other thing is it to sing out of a book , then to read with a loud , and harmonious voice ? of which harmonie singing is a kinde ) : these self same psalms in this verie use do still remain , and so are read or sung , as a part of the word of god in the holy scriptures : and in which god speaketh unto us : whereas on the other side , we do speak unto god , in all our prayers , whether mentall onely , or vocall withall . 5. even these verie psalmes , whose matter is prayer , and thanksgiving , were framed , and composed by the prophets into psalms , and spirituall songs , for this verie end , that the men of god might in them teach us , as in the written word of god , whereof they are parts , both what petitions they in their distresses put up to the lord , and also what thanksgiving they returned upon their deliverance , that so we in reading & singing them , might instruct and admonish ourselvs both publiquely , & privatly , whether by way of doctrine , or admonition , or consolation , for the promoteing of the glorie of god in our hearts . lastly , that i may discend unto them , who are onely taught by experience ; if any going out of the temple , wh●lst the church were singing a psalm , either before , or after sermon , being asked of one that met him , what the church were then doing , should answer that it were at prayer ; would he not be judged by all men to tell a ly ? but altogether without cause , if to sing be to pray , as many imagine . touching the lords prayer . we deny it to be the meaning of christ , teaching his dise ples , when they pray to say , our father , &c. to binde them , and the holy ghost in them , by which they ought to pray , to a certain form of words , & sillables , which they should repeat by heart , or ( which is our question , ) read out of a book . because , 1. the two euangelists matthew , and luke of whom both the one and other did aright both understand , and expresse the meaning of christ , do not precisely keep the same words . 2. by these words , when you pray , is meant , whensoever you pray : whereupon it should follow , that we were tyed to this stint of words alone , and alwaies : and so might lawfully use none other , except it be lawfull for us sometimes to pray raither by the levell of our own dev●se , then of christs prescript . the words therefore of cyprian are good in a good sence . to pray otherwise then christ hath taught , is not onely ignorance , but guilt , seeing he himself hath sayd , you reject the precept of god , that you may observ your own tradition . 3. amongst the manie , and manifould prayers of the apostles to be seen in the holy scriptures , this form of words is not found : and yet can it not be denyed , but they alwaies prayed as they were taught in this place by their master christ : whose meaning therefore it could not be to tye them necessarily to anie such certain of words . 4. it appears by the context , that the purpose of christ is to speak of private , or raither secret prayer , and such as everie christian apart from others , and in his closet , with the doore shut unto him , should pour out unto the lord. now that one alone , and by himself should say , our father , seems not verie congtuous . lastly , seeing of the like there is the like consideration , if the apostle iames in these words , go to now , ye that say , to day or to morrow we will goe into such a cittie &c. and vers . 15. for that ye ought to say , if the lord will , we shall live , and doe this or that , do neither simplie fault with the form of words , nor prescribe necessarily anie other , but onely ( to use calvins words ) wakens them from their dream , who without respect of the divine providence , will make themselvs maysters of a whole yeare , when there is not a moment in their power : so neither are we to conceav that our saviour christ math. 6. and luke 11 doth injoin unto his anie set words to pray in , but onely shewes whither all our prayers and vowes ought to be referred , as with all other orthodox writers about this matter , the said author speaketh : howsoever divers uns●kilfull men cease not still to sing unto us , euen to loathsomnes , the song , when you pray say , as the papists do theirs , this is my bodie : as though the controversie were about the words , and not raither about the meaning of them . but for that we are verie odiously traduced by divers , as abhorring from this form , and that we will not ( as they use to speak ) say the lords prayer , i will in few , and plain terms set down what our judgment is about it . 1. and seeing that , as the poet hath it , the names do commonly suit with the things , we may see , and sorrow withall , in the phrases in common use about this most christian duetie of prayer , what it is with the unhallowed multitude of christians to pray , namely to say prayer , to read prayer , to hear prayer , and raither any thing then indeed to pray , that is , then to pour out the conceptions of a godly and devout minde unto god , from faith and feeling of our wants , by the holy ghost . 2. we do affirm , that this form of words is unproperly , how commonly soever , called the lords prayer : as neither being a prayer as it is the lords , nor the lords as it is a prayer . as it is of the lord christ , and so the lords ( whether by himself uttered in words , or committed to writing by his euangel●sts ) it hath the consideration , and respect of a sermon , and of euangelicall doctrine , in which christ taught his disciples ; and not of a prayer put up to his father : as on the contrarie it neither was , nor could be used prayer wise by christ , in so manie words ; with whose most persit sanctimonie it did not agree for him to say , forgive us our trespasses . 3. we do firmly beleiv , that all , and everie both church and person is bound alwayes to pray , as christ hath there taught : whether we respect the matter there propounded , or the affections there injoyned , or the commodious , and compend●ous simplicitie , which christ our saviour , and onely mayster , there opposeth , both to the vain bablings , and oft repetitions of the heathens : and that in these things , and them alone , the commandement of christ doth consist , we both firmly beleiv , and confidently avow . 4. and lastly , we doubt not but that this verie form of words may be , and is rightly used in prayer unto god , provided there be neither opinion of necessitie , by which superstitious persons think themselvs stinted by the lord to words , and sillables , nor of perfection , by which many are of minde , that they have then at the last , and not before prayed per●itly , when they have repeated this form of words . and it is well , if some spot of this myre cleav not to the fingers of many ministers ; which make it a matter of great conscience not to conclude their , and the churches prayers applyed specially to the present state of things , with this number , and measure of words . which custom as it is used verie commonly , so in my judgment , with no great reason , for these two causes . first , it seems to crosse all good order , and method , by which men should d●scend from the more generall unto that which is more speciall : and not go the clean contrarie way , as in this they do . secondly , since the rule , according to phylosophie , and good reason , is alwaies before the thing ruled , and that this form is by christ inst●tuted , for this purpose , that it might be the rule , and squire of all our prayers , and as tertullian saith , is premised , as the foundation of all our accessorie d●s●●es , me thinks the same should raither be used in the first place ; upon which as the same author hath it , everie one should build the circumstances of his occasioned requests . it remayneth that in a few words i answer that , which is by some objected touching those solemn blessings , at the first imparted by the patriarks to their first born , and after by the preists to israel the first born of god. and to let passe , 1. that the composers , and imposers of the leyturg●es now in use have not equall authoritie with moses the man of god , not are th●● writings any way comparable with his : 2. that moses did not prescribe unto the priests a st●nt of words for blessing ( much lesse to be read out of a book ) but the substance of the thing ; which by manie arguments , save that i studie for brevitie , might be proved . 3. if that were moses his minde , and the lords by him , the minister were bound to the same form of blessing upon the israell of god now , which the church is : since there is nothing in it not morall , and perpetuall , or not concerning the church now , as then . i do answer this one thing , & the same in calvins words , viz. that these blessings were not ordinarie prayers , but a lawfull author●tie divinely interposed to testifie the grace of election : which 〈◊〉 also confirms by divers reasons . neither can anie man who considers the words of the text make question , but that the priests in blessing ( israel , not god ) do direct their speach unto israel by way of promise , and not unto god by way of prayer . so blesse you ( saith moses ) the children of israel , saying unto them , the lord blesse thee , &c. the same is to be judged of the salutations of the apostles in their epistles , ( whereof they are a part , and so a part of the holy scriptures ) : albeit yet they in them , as the preists in their blessings , desired to have their truly loving affection taken knowledg of by them to whom they wrote : and what good things they both desired at the hands of the lord for them , and also promised them in his name . 2. we dislike all reading of prayer in the act of praying , as inconvenient , yea directly contrarie unto that act ? in prayer we do pour out matter , to wit the holy conceptions of the minde , from within to without ; that is , from the heart to god : on the contrarie , in reading , we do receav and admit matter from without to within ; that is from the book , into the heart . let him that prayeth do that which he doth , not another thing , not a divers thing . let the whole man , and all that he is , both in soul and bodie , be b●nt upon god , with whom he converseth . the eyes of the minde are lifted to god in prayer ; and why not the eyes of the bodie also ? both which ●e that prayeth , by intending them upon a book , both depresseth , & averteth from god. the apostle exhorteth , that the men pray , lifting up pure hands to god in everie place . in like manner , ( besides the reason of the thing , we have the patriarks , prophets , christ himself , with his apostles , and disciples , for insample of lifting up the eyes to heaven in prayer . not this gesture of body is simply necessarie but most convenient , ( save in some great temptation , and depression of minde , both to expresse , and further the intention of a godly heart . let devout and learned men ( if they please , commit to writing their holy meditations , and secret conferences with god , as did austin , and others amongst the ancients ; and many of later time● which may be read , and that with no small benefit both by pastour and people ; but privately , and for better preparation unto prayer . now the preparation unto prayer is verie unseasonable at the self-same time of the solemn performance thereof ; and unreasonable in , and by the self same act . 3. seeing that publique prayer ( as bucanus saith ) is a second part of the ministrie ; as also that amongst the gifts of the holie ghost , wherewith the pastor is indued from above , that is not small , not to be despised , by which he is able conveniently both for matter , and form , to conceav a prayer according to the churches present occasion ; , and necessities ; by the reading of this prescript form that ( truly excellent ) gift giuen of god for this end is made void , and of none use , and the spirit ( contrarie to that which ought to be ) extinguished . the manifestation of the spirit ( saith the apostle ) is given to everie one ( especially to everie pastour ) to profit withall . but he who reads a form of prayer conceaved , and consigned by another , doth not manifest the pastorall gift , ( for of the internall affection our question is not ) of the spirit given to him to profit withall , but to that other by whom the form of prayer was ind●ted . 4. if to read such a form of prayer be to pray aright , and pastour like no probable reason can be rendred , wherefore to read a sermon , or homilie , is not as well to preach aright , and as is required of the pastour of the church . which so being , small reason had the apostle , treating of the ecclesiasticall ministerie , which principally consists in these two exercises , to crie out , as he did , who is sufficient for these things ? for who is not sufficient even of the vulgar sort ? who can not read a leiturgie , and an homilie ? 5. the spirit ( saith the same apostle , speaking of all christians ) helpeth our infirmities , for we know not what to pray , as we ought . yes , paul , ( with your l●av right well ; for we have in our prayer-book , what we ought to pray , word for word , whether the spirit be present or not . what then is to be done in this busines ? that which tertullian saith the christians of his time did . we pray ( saith he ) without any to prompt us , because we pray from the heart . but he who reads his prayers , or rather the prayers of him that p●nned them , and his lesson out of a book , hath one that prompts him , and that diligently , both what , and how much , and after what manner , and with what words and sillables he ought to pray . lastly , if it would be just matter of shame to any earthly father , that his childe , who desired of him bread , fish , or an egge , should need to read out of a book , or paper , father , pray you give me bread , fish , or egge ; how much more contumel●ous is it , to our heauenly father , and his holy spirit , wherewith he furnisheth all his children , specially his ministers according to their place , that an help so unworthie , and more then babe●sh , and indeed the instrument of a foolish sheepheard , namely a bare reader ( with which kinde of vermin rome , and england are pestered ) should be used by such godly , & learned pastors , as wherewith the reformed churches are furnished chap. iiii. of the ecclesiasticall presbyterie . vve do so acknowledg , and approve of , as divinely instituted , the presbyte●●es of the particular churches , as with all we judg them sundrie wai●es defective . as first we require : that all receaved into the colledg , and company of elders , even those which are called governers , should be apt to teach , and able to exhorte with sound doctrine , and convince g●●nsayers , and that not onely privately , or in the consistorie , but in the publick assemblie also , as the nature of their publique office requireth . i am not ignorant , what that learned man gersom bucer in his late treatise hath published about this matter , neither do i unwillingly assent thereunto : provided onely , that what he requires in those elders , that they be able to performe publiquely , and in the church assembly , if not exactly , yet competently . a second defect , which we wish supplyed is , that of annuall , o● tryennuall or temporarie , they might be perpetuall , and for l●fe , ( except by some casualtie , or occurrence they be disabled ) as the pastours themselvs . this terme of years for the elders administration in the reformed churches , the forenamed author in the same place doth not so much defend , as excuse ; but it seemeth raithe● needfull to have it reformed ( which is also the desire of the said learned man ) and that for these reasons . 1. the apostle paul calling unto him the elders of the church of ephesus to m●letum , doth pronounce of them all , as well the governers , as those that laboured in the word , that they were made bishops or overseers of the same church , by the holy ghost . now the authoritie of that the appo●nter ought to work in the appointed great conscience , not lightly to relinquish that charge , which by the disposition of the holy ghost they had taken upon them . 2. the same apostle doth in the same place admonish , and exhort the same elders that they should take heed unto themselvs , and to all the fl●●k , lest the same , after his departure should unhappily be damnified , either by wolves entering in among them , or such as should rise up from themselvs speaking perverse things . now if the date of their eldership , & charge were shortly to be out , they might well think with themselvs , that the apostles admonition for after times did not much concern them , whose term of office should so shortly be expired , and were perhaps to follow the apostles departure at the heeles . 3. it was sacriledg for the levites being consecrated to the lord , for the service of the tabernacle and temple , to retire from the office undertaken by them , although ( age growing upon them ) they were exempted from some the more labo●●ous works of that ministration : how then is it lawfull for the elders , or deacons ( being now no more at their own disposing , but as the levites of ould , the lords sacred and consecrated ones ) to withdraw so lightly from his speciall service ? no man under the law might change a beast , if clean , no not a better for a worse , if once hallowed to the lord. how much lesse may the church then discharge her officers ( or they themselvs ) ministering faythfully , and as they ought ? lastly , the apostle paul instructing the church in timothy to keep the commandement of christ unrebukeable untill that his glorious appearing , doth not permit , no not to the widowes & d●aconesses to ●elinquish the office once taken upon them : unto whom for that verie cause he forbids mariage it self , otherwise permitted to all , and to some injoyned . how much lesse lawfull is it for the elders , or deacons of the church ( whose both condition , and ministerie is far more excellent ) for far lighter causes , to look back , and relinquish their vocation , wherein christ hath in such sort placed them ? a third thing there is , and that of most moment , viz. that the elders do not administer their publique office publiquely , as they should , but onely in their private consistorie . and first , the administrat on of everie office doth ●n right follow the nature of the same ; whether domesticall in the familie , or civill in the common wealth , or spirituall in the church : the elders office then being publique , requires answerable , and publique administrat on . not that it is unlawfull for the elders to convene , and meet apart from the bodie , and to deliberate of such things as concerns the same , and so to do sundrie things by vertue of their office , but because that is not sufficient , neither do they indeed fulfill their publique , and church office , office , which in the lord they have receaved , except as privately , and and in their consistorie , so also ( and that specially ) publiquely , and in the face of the congregation they exequute the same . 2. the apostle beseecheth them of thessalonica that they would in love highly esteem for their works sake , not onely them which laboured among them , to wit , in doctrine ; but them also , which were over them in the lord , and admonished them . but of the work of their elders which govern , the reformed churches must needs be ignorant ; neither doe , or can they know , whether they be good , or bad . their pastours they do prosequute with due love , & honour , out of their own certain knowledg of them and their work , but their elders onely by hearsay . lastly , the same apostle warneth the elders of ●phesus , that they attend & take heed to the whole flock , in which they were made bishops . but it cannot be , that he should ministerially , as he ought , feed the whole church , whose voice the greatest part thereof never so much as once heareth . to lead , or receav a she●p now and then into the sheepfould , to confirm one that is weak , or correct one that strayeth , and that apart from the flock , is in no wise to feed the whole flock , as the apostle requireth . and that this point may be made the more plain , let us discend unto some such particulars , as in which the elders office seemeth specially to consist . and they are , the admitting of members into the church , upon profession of faith made , and the reproving and censuring of obstinate offenders , whether sinning publiquely , or privately with scandall . as we willingly leave the exequut on , and administration of these things to the elders alone in the setled , and well ordered state of the church , so do we deny plainly , that they are , or can be rightly , and orderly done , but with the peoples privat●e and consent . for the first , christ the lord gave in charge to his apostles to preach in his name remission of sins , and therewith life eternall : and that such iewes , or gentiles , as should beleiv , and repent , viz. professe holily faith and repentance , ( for to judg of the heart is gods prerogative ) they should receav into the fellowship of the church , and baptize . and that these all , and everie of them were publiquely , and in the face of the congregation to be administred , the acts of the apostles do plent●ously make known . and if baptism , the consequent of the confession of faith , in them baptized , and the badg of our consociation with christ and his church , be to be celebrated publiquely , why is not the profession of saith proportionably ( although by the formerly baptized through a kinde of unorderly anticipation ) to be made publiquely also , and therewithall the consociation ecclesiasticall , as the former ? the covenant privately made , and the s●al publiquely annexed are disproportionate . i further add , that since persons admitted into the church , are by the whole bodie , if not of enemies , at least of strangers become and are to be reputed b●ethren ●n christ most nearly joyned , and they with whom , they are to call upon one common father publiquely to participate of one holy bread , and with whom they are to have all things , even bodily goods after a sort common , as everie one hath need , it seemeth most equall , that not onely the presbyters ( the churches servants under christ ) but the whole commonaltie also should take knowledg in their persons , both of their holy profession of faith , and voluntarie submission made as unto christ himself , so to his most holy institutions in his church . to come to the second head . and 1. those who sin , that is , with publique scandall , rebuke publiquely , sayth the apostle , that others also may fear . and if the elders themselvs , of whom he speaketh , for whose credit the greatest care is to be taken much more any other , as beza rightly observeth . and that not for this cause alone , that when the punishment comes to one , the fear might reach unto many , which yet wise men in all publique exequutions would haue carefully provided for , but also that both he that so sinneth may be the more ashamed , and others both within , and without may withall take knowledg , how litle indulgent the church is to her own dearest ones in their enormous sins . 2. with this also it well conforteth , that christ the onely doctour of his church would haue not onely sins scandalous committed in publique , publiquely reproved , and before the multitude , but even those which are private , obstinately persisted in , when he saith , tell the church , &c. i am not ignorant how diversly divers men do interpret these words : whilst some by the church do understand the civill come of the magistrate ; others the hierarchicall bishop , with his officials ; others the senate of elders excluding the people . and thus whilst these strive for the power , and name withall of the church amongst themselvs , the church indeed , and which christ the lord meaneth is well nigh stripped both of power , and name . the first of these three interpretations i will not trouble my self with ; as being almost of all , and that worthily expleded , and rejected ; and aboundantly refuted by divers learned men : the two latter are to be aslau●t●d with almost the same weapons . the former of these two , though it be in it self the more different from christs meaning , yet comes it in this circumstance now in consideration , the nearer the truth in our judgment , considered in its exequution : since neither the bishops , nor their officials , chauncelours , commisaries , or other court-keepers do exclude the people from their consistories , and courts : but to offer themselvs in their publique judgments , and censures to the ve●w of all , who please to be present thereat . and i think 〈…〉 of either amongst gentiles or iewes , or christians ( be it spoken without offence ) before this last age , that publique judgments and other acts of publique nature , as these are , should be privately exercised , and without the peoples privitie . it was not so in israel of ould , where by gods appointment the elders were to sit , and judg in the gates of the cittie : nor in the synagogues themselvs , from which manie are of minde , how truly i will not say , that the christian eldership was derived , after the roman tyrannie had confined into them the iewes civill conventions , and judgments ; nor in the primative church , no not in some ages after the apostles , as might easily be proved out of tertullian , cyptian , and others , if i would trie the matter in that court : but it is much more safe , as austin saith , to walke by the divine scriptures . and first the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 church , originally greek , answering to the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth primarily , and properly signifie a convention of citizens called from their houses by the publ●que c●yer , either to hear some publique sentence or charge given : but translated to religious use , denoteth an assemblie of persons called out of the state of corrupt nature into that of supernaturall grace , by the publishing of the gospell . now the elders , or presbyters ( as such ) are , and so are said to be , called , to wit , to their office of eldership , but called out they are not , being themselvs to call out the church , and unto it to perform the cryers office . neither do i think that the name ecclesia , church , hath been used by any greek author , before the apostles times , or in their daies , or in the age after them for the assemblie of sole governers in the act of their government , or indeed before the same governers had seazed into their own , & onely hands the churches both name and power . but you will say , as learned men use to do , that these elders susteyn the person of the whole multitude , and supplie their room , for the avoiding of confusion ; and so are ●ightly , as commonly called the church representative . i answer . first , no godly , no nor reasonable man will affirm , that this representation is to be extended to all the acts of religion , or indeed to others , then these , which are exercised in the governing of the church . what is it then ? the elders in ruling , and governing the church must represent the people , and ocupie their place . it should seem then , that it appe●teyns unto the people , unto the people primarily , and originally ( under christ ) to rule and govern the church , that is , themselvs . but who will so say of a government not personall , but publique , and instituted , as the churches is ? 2. if the elders in their consistorie represent the church , then whatsoever they either decree , or do agreeing to the word of god whether respecting faith or manners , that also the church decreeth and doth , though absent , though ignorant both what the thing is , which is done , and upon what grounds it is done by the elders : this being the nature of representations , that what the representing doth within the bounds of his commission , that the represented doth primarily , and much more , as but using the other for his instrument . now how dissonant this is to true faith and pietie , how consonant unto the papists implicit faith , no man can be ignorant : and i had raither wise men should consider , then i aggravate . 3. the constant , and universall practise of the apostles & apostolick churches do quite crosse this consistorian course . the apostle paul , well acquainted with the meaning of christ , doth 1 cor. 5. so reduce into practise , the rule and prescript of his maister matth. 18. or to use the words of the bishop of chester , there commaunds to bring into practise this power , in the name of christ , with his spirit , as he seems to leav no place for doubting to him , who with diligence , and without prejudice , will compare together these two places , what the lord meaneth , when he saith , tell the church , this our apostle doth in that place reprove not the elders or governers alone , but with them also the whole commonaltie and bodie , for tolerating the incestuous person amongst them . which therefore accordingly , as his authoritie apostolicall , and care for all the churches d●d require , he admonisheth , and directeth , that as mindefull both of the sinners repentance , and salvation , and therewith of their own puritie , they would exclude , by due order , that wicked man from their holy fellowship . and that by these words , ( when ye are come together ) the whole church is to be understood , manie , but heavie freinds to the peoples libertie , iesuites , p●clatists , and others do graunt . but we will annex certain reasons for the further clearing of the thing . 1. they among whom the fornicatour was , who were puffed up , when they should have sorrowed , and out of the middest of whom , he was to be put , who had done that thing ; they were to be gathered together in one , and to judg and excommunicate that incestuous person . but the fornicatour was not amongst the elders alone , neither were they alone puffed up when they should have sorrowed , neither was that wicked man to be taken out of the midst of them , and still left in the midst of the people ; and therefore not to be judged by them alone , but by the church with them , though governed by them . 2. it did not of ould apperteyn onely to the levites and elders in israel , to purge out of their houses the materiall leven , but to everie father of familie also : so by proportion to the whole church now to purge out the leven spirituall there spoken of : which also could not leven the whole lump , or church , in the apostles meaning , except it had concerned the whole church to purge it out . 3. the apostle wrote not to the elders onely , but with them to the whole bodie , not to be commingled with fornicators , covet●us persons , or the like , called brethren : he therefore admonisheth them , as the other , to cast their stone at the incestuous man , for the taking him away from the lords people . manie more arguments , and the same verie clear , might be drawn to this end , out of the text it self ; but for brevitie sake i will omit them , and annex this onely one which followeth , from the second chapter of the second epistle . the same apostle writing to these same corinthians about the same incestuous person , but now penitent , as before delinquent , seriously exhorts them , that look what severitie they had formerly shewed in censuring him for his sin , the like compassion they would now shew , in ●eceaving him again upon his repentance : therein plainly insinuateing , that this busines was not in the hands of the elders alone , except we will say , that they alone were made sad by the apostles reproof , that they alone by their studie , defence , indignation , zeal , &c. testified , that they were pure in the thing , and except it belonged to them alone to pardon , and comfort the repentant sinner , and to confirm their love unto him . and whereas some would inclose this whole power within the apostles circuit ; as if he alone , bishop-like , had passed sentence judicia●ie upon the offender , and onely committed the declaration , and publication of it in the church , to some his substitute , i deem it not lost labour breifly to ●hew how erroneous this opinion is of externall monarchicall government , yea power also , which is more , in the church of christ. and , first , one alone , how great soever , cannot suffice to make the church , or a congregation , which christ hath furnished with power of binding , and loosing math. 18 , 17 , 18. both reason , and scripture teaching , that for an assembly , and congregation at least two or three are required . ver . 19. the church ( which name signifies a multitude , designeing by a new trope , one alone singular person , as saith d. whitakers against stapleton , going about to prove that the name of the church belongs to the pastours , or byshops , or pope alone . 2. it is expresly affirmed 2 cor. 2 , 6. that the incestuous person was censured by many : which many or more , the apostle opposeth to himself alone , as appeareth by the context ; and not to all , as some erroneously think . 3. the apostle plainly , and sharply reproveth the corinthians for that before his writing they had not voyded that sinfull man , their holy fellowship , and so prevented the reporte by which such a crime , and the same unpunished came to his ears . this their power then the man of god doth not seaze into his own hands as forfeyt by their default in not using it , but vehemently ( and as became a faithfull minister ) exhorts and admonist●es them to use it , as they ought in the judging , purging out , and taking from among themselvs that wicked man , and so any other within , or called a brother , sinning in the like manner . 4. if the apostle paul being absent from corinth had excommunicated this sinner , then had he judicially condemned , and judged a man unaccused , unconvicted , and unreproved ( at least face to face , and before his judg ) : then which what more unjust can be imagined of , or ascribed unto the holy apostle ? i conclude therefore with peter martyr , the apostle , as great as he was , doth not so far usurp to himself power , as that he one , and alone by himself should excommunicate : which yet the pope , and ma●y bishops ( both romish and english ) dare do : injudging he goes before others , as it is meet the cheif in the church should do , that so the lesse skilfull multitude might be directed in judging by their voting before them . thus much of this place . the next followeth , which is acts 1 , when another was to succeed in the room of iudas the traytour , not peter alone , or the apostles with him , but ( that the ordination might be just and lawfull , being made with the knowledg of the people assistent , and examined by the verdit , and judgment of all ) the multitude of the disciples together did substitute two , whom they deemed most excellent , that of them the lord , who knew the hearts of all men , might take unto himself the man , which he knew most fit . that which belonged unto god , namely , to designe an apostle immediately , was left unto him : the disciples also in this work , rete●●ing what might be their libertie : which calvin notes upon this place , to have been a kinde of middle temper . the third place followeth , which is act. 6. handling the choice of deacons , and that by the same church in ierusalem , not now small , as before , but ( which i wish may be marked to stop the passage , which some think lyes open for escape through smaller assemblies ) now become great , and populous . in this busines the apostles informe the church what kinde of men they ought to chuse : the multitude chuseth whom they judg fit , and meet accordingly ; and the same present to the apostles : upon whom so chosen by the people , the said apostles impose hands as a solemn symbole of their consecration , joyning therewith common prayer . now if the deacons onely betrusted with the churches monie were not to be made but by the peoples suffrage , and election , much lesse pastors & elders , unto whose fidelitie under christ the same church doth commit the incomparable treasure of their souls . to the same purpose ( in regarde of the matter in hand ) serveth that , which we read act. 14 , 23. where paul and barnabas do ordeyn elders in everie church , by suffrages ( not their own as some fancie , unto whom to lift up , & to lay on hands is all one ) but the peoples ; or by the lifting up of hands , by which signe , the grecians , as appears in demosthenes , and others , the peoples vote or voyce-giving in their popular assemblies was wonte to be made . i ad ( which is especially to be observed ) that the apostles in doing their part in the ordination of elders , did what they did , as it were , by the way : staying onely , most like , two or three daies in a place : so as they could not possibly by their own experience take sufficient knowledg , what persons in the church were apt to teach or govern : who able to exhort with sound doctrine , & to convince the gainsayers : how unblamable they were , how watchfull , given to hospitalitie , temperate , &c. and with these , how mannered wives , and children they had . these things onely the bretheren which conversed with them publiquely , and privately , could sufficiently take knowledg , and experience of . vpon their electing them did the ordination conferred by the apostles , as the hands of the church , depend . by election the persons elected have right to their offices ; into the actuall possession whereof they are solemnly admitted by ordination . this troup of proofes , that known , and notable place act. 15. shall shut up : in which we have the peoples libertie in the churches both of antioch , and ierusalem plentifully confirmed and commended by apostolick practise to ensueing churches , and times . and first , it is evident , that in the church of antioch together with the elders ( which it appears then it had act. 14 , 21 , 23. ) the brethren were admitted into the fellowship of the busines , and disquisition made about circumcision : paul & barnabas with the rest of the delegates then sent being brought on their journey by the church . ver . 3. the letters also being written back from ierusalem to the brethren which were at antioch , ver . 23. and which is specially to be noted , then , and not before , delivered when the multitude were come together . vers . 30. so in the church at ierusalem the messengers from antioch were receaved not onely of the apostles and elders , but of the church with them , vers . 4. and as the question was propounded so was it , discussed before the whole church by the apostles , & elders comming together to look unto that busines . ver . 6. yet not so as the brethren were wholly bound to silence , seeing that ver . 11. the whole multitude is said to have held their peace , that is , to have yeilded to peters speach , and reasons . lastly , as silas and iudas were sent with paul and barnabas , by the apostles , and elders with the whole church unto antioch , vers . 22. so were the letters written back in the name of them all to the brethren at antioch . ver . 23. and although the decrees to be observed by the churches of the gentiles , ( whereof no one , excepting antioch , had any delegates present ) which were also part of the word of god , and holy canon , could come from none other then the apostles , immediately inspired by the h. ghost , they notwithstanding in the publishing of the same , did not disdam the consenting suffrage of the brethren of that particular church of ierusalem , where the assembly was . and surely , if it ever did , or could apperteyn to any church officers or governers whatsoever to represent the church-assemblies , in elections , censures , and other ecclesiasticall judgments , and occurrences ; then without doubt unto the apostles in an eminent , and peculiar manner ( especially living in that rude , and childish state of the church ) considering both how superlative their office was , and how admirable their gifts , and endowments of the holy ghost , together with their incomparable both pietie , & prudence : by which they were both most able , and willing to promote the christian faith in holynes . and although this constant , and uniform both practise , and institution of the apostles unto divers ( politick persons , swelling with pride of fleshly reason , dispising apostolicall simplicitie , and who , as ●●eneus speaks , would be rectifiers of the apostles , seem worthie of light regard , yet to us , who beleiv with theodoret , that we ought to rest in the apostolicall , and propheticall demonstrations , and who with tertullian do adore the fulnes of the scriptures , they seem of singular weight , and moment . and whilst i consider with my self in the fear of god , how it was the apostles duetie to teach the disciples of christ to observ whatsoever he commanded them ; and how the apostle paul testifieth , that even the things , which he wrote touching order , and comlynes to be observed in the church-exercises , were the commandements of the lord , as also how the same apostle clearly professeth , that he and his fellow officers were onely to be reputed as ministers and ambassadours of christ , to whom therefore in the exequution of their office it was not permitted to do , or speak the least thing , which they had not in charge from him , it is unto me a matter of great scruple , and conscience , to depart one hair-breadth ( extraordinarie accidents ever excepted ) from their practise , & institution , in any thing truely ecclesiasticall , though never so small in it self : whatsoever , by whomsoever , and with what colour soever is invented , and imposed , touching the government of the church which is the house and tabernacle of the living god. and a partner in this faith i do hope to live , and die , and to appear before iesus christ , with bouldnes in that great and fearfull day of his coming . i add , that seeing the christian congregation as the spouse of christ , free , and ingenuous , hath the church officers whosoever , as christ iesus her housbands , so also her servants for iesus sake , whom under christ she trusteth with her eternall salvation , and unto whom for their labour shee oweth wages for releif and maintenance ; considering also how much it makes both to whet on the diligence of the ministers , and to inforce the diligence of the people , whilst these on the one side consider with themselvs , how they have them set over them , whom above others themselvs have liked , and made choice of ; and they on the other side , that they are set over those by whom they before others were made choice of , and elected : that which cyprian hath , seemeth most equall , and of institution morall , and unchangeable , that the commonaltie fearing god & keeping his commaundements , should have the speciall hand either in chusing of worthie preists , or ministers , or of rejecting the unworthie : which also , saith he , we see to be founded upon divine authoritie . the same is to be held of excommunication . seeing that it behooveth the christian multitude to avoide the fellowship of the excommunicated not onely in the course of religion , but even in common , and familiar conversation ( the rights of nature , familie , and common wealth ever kept inviolated ) : and that whom yesterday i was to repute a brother near , and dear in christ , to morrow i must hould as an heathen , and publican , and as , for the destruction of the flesh , delivered to sathan : who is so unequall a judg , as not to think it a most equall thing , that the multitude should clearly , and undoubtedly take knowledg both of the heynousnes of the crime , and incorrigeable contumacie of the person , after the use of all means , and remedies for reclayming him . this if it be not done , then doth not the church herein live by her own , but by her officers faith ; neither are her governers to be reputed as servants , but lords unto her ; neither do they exercise their office popular●lie in the church as they ought , but tyrannicallie , as they ought not , by chrisostoms verdit . his words are these . he who bears himself upon an externall and worldly power , because he rules legally , and that men must of necessitie obey him , doth oft times , and that not without cause , exercise authoritie against the will , and wel-liking of his subiects ? but on the other side , he who will be over those , who voluntarily submit unto him , and can him thank , and yet will presume to do things as himself liketh , & as if he were to give account to none other thereof , that man raither exerciseth his author●tie tyrannically then popularly . the lord god put it into the hearts of those who bear greatest sway in the reformed churches , to indeavour the furnishing of the same with such elders , as may both fully , and constantly , and popularly , discharge their place , for the peace of their own consc●ences before god , the edification of the churches over which they are set , as also for the abateing , if not abolishing , of that contempt in which prelat●sts , and supercilious persons use to hould these lay-elders , as they call them . but now lest any should take occasion , either by the things here spoken by us , or els where of us , to conceave , that we either exercise amongst our selvs , or would thrust upon others , any popular , or democraticall church-government ; may it please the christian reader to make estimate of both our judgment , and practise in this point , according to these three declarations following . first , we beleev , that the externall church-government under christ the onely mediatour , and monarch thereof is plainly aristocraticall , and to be administred by some certain choice men , although the state , which manie unskilfully confound with the government , be after a sort popular , and democraticall . by this it apperteyns to the people freely to vote in elections and judgments of the church : in respect of the other we make account , it behoves the elders to govern the people even in their voting in just libertie , given by christ whatsoever . let the elders publiquely propound , and order all things in the church , & so give their sentence on them ; let them reprove them that sin , convince the gain-sayers , comfort the repentant , and so administer all things according to the prescript of gods word : let the people of faith , give their assent to their elders holy and lawfull administration : that so the ecclesiasticall elections , and censures may be ratified , and put into solemn exequution by the elders , eyther in the ordination of officers after election , or excommunication of offenders after obstinacie in sin . 2. we doubt not but that the elders both lawfully may , and necessarily ought , and that by vertue of their office , to meet apart at times from the bodie of the church , to deliberate of such things as concern her welfare , as for the preventing of things unnecessarie , so for the preparing ( according to just order ) of things necessarie , so as publiquely , and before the people , they may be prosequuted with most conveniencie , and least trouble that may be . 3. by the people whose libertie , and right in voteing we thus avow , and stand for ; in matters truly publique and ecclesiasticall , we do not understand ( as it hath pleased some contumeliously to upbraid us ) women , and children ; but onely men , and them grown , and of discretion : making account , that as children by their nonage , so women by their sex are debarred of the use of authoritie in the church . chap. v. of holy-dayes . it seemeth not without all leven of superstition , that the duch reformed churches do observ certain dayes consecrated as holy to the nativity , resurrection , and ascention of christ , and the same also ( as it commonly comes to passe where humain devices are reared up by the side of divine institutions ) much more holy then the lords day , by him himselfe appoynted . and for this , first we are taught by moses , thus speaking unto the people of israel in the name of the lord. verily my sabbaths ye shall keep for it is a signe between me and you thoroughout your generations that ye may know that i am the lord that doth sanctifie you , that it appertayns unto god alone ( and to no man , or angel ) as to sanctifie whether person , or thing , so to institute the signes , or means of sanctification , of which number holy dayes are . i ad , if the lord as lehovah , and the god of his people is●ael , and supream lawgiver , do ordeyn the sanctification of a day in the decalogue , how far should gods servants be , eyther magistrates from takeing this honour of god unto themselves by commaunding a holy day ; or subjects by observing it to give the same unto any other save god alone ? 2. it was not the least part of israels defection , first in the wildernes , afterwards under ieroboam ; that they ordeyned a ●east to ichovah , whom they represented to themselvs by the goulden calvs which they had made . 3. seeing that every first day of the weeke ( called by iohn the lords day ) is consecrated by christ himself and his apostles to the memoriall of christs resurrection , and gods solemn worship ; it seems too much for anie mortall man to appoint , or make an anniversarie memoriall ( and the same most solemn and sacred ) of the same resurrection , or so to observe it . lastly , that you may see it was a man , from whom this device came , and so erred , as one saith ( not to meddle with the uncertaintie either of the day of the month , or month of the yeare in which christ was born , as it is most certain on the contrarie that , this 25 of december cannot be the time , what good reason ( i would know ) can be rendred , why a day should be consecrated rather to the birth , circumcision , and ascension of christ , then to his death , seeing that the scriptures every where do ascribe our redemption and salvation to his death , and passion in speciall manner ? chap. vi. of the celebration of mariage by the pastours of the church . sixtly , and lastly , we cannot assent to the receaved opinion and practise answerable in the reformed churches , by which the pastours thereof do celebrate marriage publiquely , and by vertue of their office : because 1 the holy s●r●pture divinely inspired , that the man of god , that is the minister , may be perfitly furnished to every good work , doth no where furnish or oblige the minister to this work . 2. marriage doth properly and imediately appertein to the family , ( which is primarily framed of man , and wife ) and citties , and other politicall bodies consisting of manie familyes . secondarily , and mediately to the common wealth , and publique governers of the same : who therefore weighing their office , and what concerneth them doe accordingly , in the low countries , comelily , and in good order●●y that knott of marriage amongst such theire subjects , as require it at their hands . neither did god as a minister joyn in marriage our first parents ( as some would make him ) but as their common father by right of creation , and the chief maister of the marriage : neither ought the pastours office to be streched to anie other acts then those of religion , and such as are peculiar to christians : amongst which marriage ( common to gentiles as well , as to them ) hath no place . lastly , considering how popish superstitition hath so far prevailed , that marriage in the romish church hath gott a room amongst the sacraments , truly , and properly so called , and by christ the lord instituted ; the celebration , and consecration whereof the patrons , and consorts of that superstition will have so tyed to the priests fingers , that , by the decree of evaristus the first , they account the marriage no better then incestuous , which the priest consecrates not ; it the more concerns the reverend brethren , and pastours of the reformed churches to see unto it , that by their practise they neither doe , nor seem to advantage this popish errour . and these are the points of our difference frō the belgick churches : which are nei●her so small ; as that they deserv to be neglected , especially of them unto whom nothing seemeth small ; which proceeds from the gracious either mouth or spirit of the lord iesus : nor yet so great , as to dissolv the bond of brotherly charitie , and communion . if any now shal object , that there are yet other things beside these , in which we consort not so well with them , nor they with us ; as for example , 1. in the sanctification of the lords day , in which we seem even superstitiously rigid . 2. in a certain popular exercise of prophesi amongst us : 3. in our dislike of the publique temples , and sundry other indifferent things , as they are termed ; besides , that we are accused by some for not having in due estimation the magistrates authoritie in matters of religion ; i do answere , and first , that in the two first of these , the same churches do not differ from us in judgment , but in practise : as appears evidently by the harmonie of the belgick synods lately published by s. r. of the former of those two , the author of the same book , testifieth in his preface to the reader , that the synod held at middleborough in zeland , 1581. did supplicate unto the magistrate , that by his authoritie he would decree the sanctification of the lords day , abolishing the manifould abuses thereof . that sanctification then of the lords day which the reformed churches do endeavour unto , and desire to have fortified by the magistrates authoritie , that we ( considering it as immediately imposed by christ upon his churches ) by the grace of god , labour to perform , being thereunto induced by these , amongst other reasons . chap. vii . of the sanctification of the lords day . first the sanctification of the sabboth is a part of the decalogue , or morall law , written in tables of stone by the finger of god : of which christ our lord pronounceth , that no one ●o●e , or title shall passe away . now if it be unpossible for one title of the law to be dissolved , much more for a whole word , or commandement , and one of ten ; by which it should come to passe , that christians now were not to count of ten commandements of the moral law , but of nyne onely . if reply be made that the fourth commandement is so ceremoniall , that notwithstanding it hath this morall in it , that some tyme be assigned , and taken for the publique ministerie , and exercises of religion , i answer : 1. that the same may be said in generall , of the mosaicall ceremonies whatsoever : all , and everie one whereof affoardeth something morall . for instance , the mosaicall temple , or tabernacle had this morall in it , and perteyning to us , as well as to the israelites , that it was a fit and convenient place for the church assembly . is therefore the precept for the tabernacle as well morall , as that for the sabboth ? is it alike a part of the decalogue , and morall law ? is it alike one of the ten commandements ? 2. if the morall sanctification of the sabboth stand in this , that sometime be assigned to the publique ministerie , then were the israelites , especially the preists , and levites , bound to an everie day sabboth and sanctification morall , being bound everie day to offer in the tabernacle , and temple , two young lambs , the one at morning , the other at evening for a daylie sacrifice . 3. if the second precept of the decalogue do in the affirmative part injoyn all outward instituted worship of god ; then also by consequence it requi●es some set time ( as a naturall circumstance absolutely necessarie to everie finite action ) in which the same worship is to be performed . in va●n then is the fourth commandement , and to no purpose , if it injoyn nothing at all , but that which was injoyned before , namely in the second . 4. the verie essence of the fourth commaundment consists in this , that a day of seaven be kept holy , that is separated from common use , and consecrated to god , in wh●ch as in a holy day the works of divine worship , and such as serve for the spirituall man ought to be exercised , as appears plainly by the reason taken from gods example , upon which the commandement is founded . take this away , and the life of the precept seemeth to suffer violence . the truly godly take some tyme for the exercises of gods worship not onely publique , and ecclesiasticall , but private also , and domesticall : yea in their closets , as christ teacheth . yet are not these either times , or places , in which such things are done , then others ar● ▪ eyther therefore a day in it self must be holy , by divine institution , or the decalogue is may●ed in the fourth commandement . but you will doubtlesse object the change made from the last daie , to the first day of the week . i answer , 1. that change is mee●ly circumstantiall , & in which also the essence of the precept i● not abolished , but established . as for example . god promised unto children duly honouring their parents a long life in that land ( to wit of canaan , then to be possessed by his people ) which the lord thy god gave unto them . the same promise by the apostles testimonie still stands good to obedient children , though out of canaan , and in another land , so doth the same precept stand in force for the sanctification of the sabboth , though removed to another of the seven dayes by the lords hand . 2. it is evident that this alteration was made both upon weightie ground , and warrantable authoritie . the ground is christ our saviours resurrection from the dead : in wh●ch mans new creation ( at least in respect of christ working the same in the state of humiliation for that ●nd undertaken ) was perfeited : a new kinde of kingdome of god , after a sort established : and , as the scriptures speak , all things made new . and why not also a new sabboth after a sort ? in which yet notwithstanding the former ( as ●he creation also by christ● is not so properly abolished , as perfited . the authoritie upon which this change lea●eth , is no lesse then of christ himself : who , first , by word of mouth for the fortie dayes after his resurrection , taught the disciples the things , which apperteyned to the kingdom of god , that is , as calvin saith , whatsoever things they published either by word or writing afterward . 2. by his example , or fact , setting himself in the middest of the same his apostles , the first day of the week , and as iunius saith , everie eigth day , till his ascension into heaven : & therein not onely blessing them with his bodily , but much more , with his spirituall , and that speciall presence . 3. by his spirit speaking in his apostles , whose office it was to teach his disciples to observ what things soever he had commanded them , and to declare unto them the whole counsail of god : who also in their whole ministration were to be reputed none other then the ministers of christ , and lastly whose both writing ( & preachings accordingly ) even about order and comlines to be kept in the church exercises were the commandements of the lord iesus . agreable hereunto it was , that the apostle paul coming to troa● , and there with his companie abid●ng seven dayes , he did not till the first day of the week ( which yet was the last of the seven ) call together the a●sciples to eat bread , that is to communicate in the lords supper . hereupon also it was , that the same apostle ordeyned , that on everie first day of the week , as on a day sanctified for the holie assemblies , and ●ttest for most effectuall provocations to the supplying of the necessities of the poore saints , everie one of the richer sort , should lay something apart , as god had blessed him , for the releif of the churches in syria , at that tyme oppressed with great penurie , and want . lastly upon none other ground but this , was this day , by iohn the apostle , named expresly the lords day , as being consecrated to the resurrection and service of the lord iesus : for which end also it was kept in the primitive churches , as appeareth by most ancient and authentick writers . neyther did pathmos more distinctly denote a certain and known iland , and iohn a certain and known person , then did the lords day a day certain , and known especially unto christians , unto whom the apostle wrote . whereunto also agreeth that of austin , this lords day is therefore so called , because on that day the lord rose again , or that by the verie name i● might teach us , how it ought to be consecrated to the lord. the second reason is , because the sanctification of the sabboth ( the circumstantiall change notwithstanding ) doth as well belong to us in our times , as to the israelites in theirs ; whether we respect the reason of the commandement , or the end . the reason is taken from the example of god himself , who rested the seventh day from the works of creation . the ends are , 1 , that we framing our selvs to gods example , after six daies spent in servile works , or works of acquisition , might rest the seaventh . 2. that we might recount with our selvs , not onely with thankfull , but also composed hearts , as the creation of man , and of all other things for mans good , so also his re-creation , & renovation clearly shineing in the resurrection of christ from the dead . 3. that sequest●ing our hearts , tongues , and hands from everie servile work ( so far as humain infirmitie will bea● ) we might cons●crate unto god a certain and set time , & day , for the works of pietie towards him , and of charitie towards men . and albeit the state of israell of ould compared with ours , was childish , and elementa●ie , and so needed the more helps both for restraint , and supportance ; yet have not we atteyned to such manlike perfection , as that we need none at all in this kinde . and ( not to meddle with the table of christians , whose ave●s●es from the due sanctification of this day gives no obscure testamonie , that the same is sacred , & of god , from which their prophane conversation so much abhorreth ) how behooffull , and necessarie it is for the true worshippers of god , that for some certain , and whole day they should emptie , and disburden their hearts of their earthly cares ( though in themselves lawfull ) that so they might wholy consecrate themselvs to god , publiquely in his house , and privately in their own ; partly by preparing themselvs , and theirs for the publique worship , and ministrie , & partly by calling to minde in themselvs , and instructing , and examining of those which belong unto them , as they ought , touching the things which they have publiquely heard ; as also in m●ditateing of the most glorious works of gods hands , the verie experience of everie godly , and devout man may teach him . he that sels himself to the holy , and severe observation of this the lords sabboth , turning away his foot from the sabboth , not to do that wherin he delighteth , on the lords holy day , & calling the sabboth a delight , the holy of the lord , & honourable and shall honour him , not doing hi● own wayes , nor performing his own pleasure , or speaking his own words ; then shall he delight himself in the lord , and he will cause him to ●ide upon the high places of the earth , and feed him with the heritage of iacob his father , because the mouth of the lord hath spoken it : where as on the contrarie , no man doth or can neglect the same without apparent prejudice and wrong to pietie , and goodnes both in himself , and those under him . to let passe other things , how easily doth this thought steal into the heart not thoroughly perswaded of the holynes of this day ? what now ! there is in the day no holynes by gods appointment , save onely , as in it , the publique sermons of the church with prayer , and thanksgiving are to be frequented , and performed : for me to be present at everie sermon , speciallie made in the cittie , both on the lords day , and everie other day of the week , my speciall calling , and worldly affairs will not permit : besides , it were verie commodious for me on this lords day , to make an end of such or such a work which i have in hand , to deal in such a busines , to undertake such a journey ; and what should hinder me from so doing ? but provided alwaies , upon this condition , that look what this day wants , the morrow , or next day shall plentifully supply : or , if it so fall out , thorough mine importunate bu●sines , that i bee something more behinde this week in these things , i will certainly , and at the furthest , the next week be so much the more frequent in them , and so make god , and my soul amends . and why ( as is the guise of ill debters ) will not men desire , and take longer day , even to months , and years also ? considering how on the one side the heart of man is dayly faster taken & held by the bait of worldly profit , and pleasure ; and on the other , lesse affectioned to gods holy word , by the lesse frequent hearing of it . and hence , alasse , cometh it to passe , that true pietie languisheth so much in the most , and with it such other christian vertues as use to accompanie it . hence flow those tears of sorrow , and lamenting , which no true christian casting his eyes upon the reformed churches can forbear . the third reason is taken from that apostolicall determination ( wrested by many to a contrarie meaning ) coloss. 2 , 16 , 17. let no man therefore judg you in meat , or drink , or in respect of a feast or new moone , or sabbaths ; which are the shadow of good things to come , but the bodie is christ. whence it appeareth more then plainly , that onely those sabboths are abolished by christs comeing in the flesh , which were types and figures of christ to come , of which sort as there were not a few instituted of god by moses , so doth this apostle here , and elswhere sufficiently declare the abrogateing , and abolishing of the same by christ. but that the sabboth , of which we now speak comes in that reckoning we plainly deny . for , 1. in its primary institution gen. 2. there can nothing be found not wholy morall . let a man haveing many e●es as argus , search the same with a candle , he seekes ( as we say ) a knot in a bul●ush , if he think to find in it any either shadow of christ , or shadow of shadow . if any shall except , that god by moses did enjoyn unto the israelites the sanctification of this day , that it might be a signe between him , and israel throughout their generations , that they might know , that he is the lord that doth sanctifie them , i do answer , first , in the words of arminius , that the reason upon which god did afterwards commend unto his people , the sanctification of the sabboth because it was a signe between god and his people , that it was iehovah that sanctified them , may be applyed to the times of the new testament , & further with them also the sabboths sanctification . 2. admit that this use were ceremoniall , and typicall in the fourth commandement , yet were there no force in the consequence from one end & use typicall , and ceremoniall , superinduced , and brought in upon the precept , to prove the precept it self ceremoniall , and typicall in the institution . by the same reason it may be affirmed , that both the covenant of god made with abraham , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , as also the right of the first born , for a double port on , & manie things more of like consideration , were merely ceremoniall , and typicall , seeing that even unto them also , were annexed , and that by gods appointment , divers typicall , and temporall respects : of which notwithstanding none soundly minded will deny , that the one is euangelicall , and the other naturall . 3. considering that the observation of this sabboth was either injoyned ( as i perswade my self it was from gen. 2 , 1 , 2 , 3. & exod. 16 , 26 , 30. ) to adam , in innocency and not yet needing christ ; or at least , that the reason of the institution did fit the state of innocencie as well , as it did the israelites afterward i doe undoubtedly conclude , that the same sabboth in the primarie , and essentiall institution thereof is not to come upon their file , which as the shadows of future things had christ for the body . fourthly , i argue from that premonition of christ math. 24 , 20. pray that your flight be not in winter nor on the sabboth . i am not ignorant how the most divines both ancient , and later do understand this sermon ( as chrisostom saith ) as made of the iewes ; seeing that , as the same authour hath it , neither the apostles did observ the sabboth day , neither yet were they in iudea when these things were done of the romans : many of them having departed this life , and the rest ( if anie survived ) having bestowed themselvs in other places . but ( with due reverence to them all be it spoken ) it seemeth by the text to be otherwise . for 1. christ made not this sermon to the iewes , as iewes , but to his disciples , and those alone , and the same comming unto him secretly to be taught by him : whom he forewarned in the same place how that first at the hands of the iewes in iudea , and after , of the gentiles every where , they should be evill intreated for his names sake . v. 3 , 4 , 9. 25 , 26. with luke 21. 12. secondly , our saviour in saying pray ye , makes it plain , that that he speaks of them , and their associates unto whom he speakes , to wit , christians . lastly how could it be that christ , who by his death ( now drawing so neare as that there was but a step unto it ) was to abrogate , and abolish all iewish ceremonies , and shadowes , should to carefully provide for the so religious observation of a shadowish , and ceremoniall sabboth : and that not for a day or two , but for so many yeares after the same his death ; could anie thing more weightie be spoken by christ , or which could more deeply imprint in the hearts of men a religious regard of the sabboth , then that it behooved them to obte●n by prayer at gods hands , that they might not be const●eined unto that thing although permitted them of god in case of urgent necessitie , which might violate and interrupt the publique , and solemn sanctification thereof ; it is true then which chrisostome saith , that the apostles did not observ the sabboth , to wit , iewish : but the christian sabboth , o● lords day they did undoubtedly celebrate . the fift and last reason may be fetcht from the verie gentiles themselvs , who directed by the glimps of the light of nature , how darkly soever shineing in them , had their holy daies , and some of the same such , as in which not so much as the pleading , and determining of suites were admitted . it seemeth naturall , that some day , and morall that some day certain , and distinct , be sacred unto god : and the same ( as iunius saith ) every seaventh day ) : in which men forbearing all servile works , may consecrate , and give themselvs to god in the duties of pietie , and of charitie to men . which with what hinderance unto the one , and other is everie where neglected , can scarse either be uttered , or conceaved . for what tra●va●l if upon the overslipping of the most seasonable seed-time , a slender harvest follow ; or that ( the market day being neglected ) penu●ie of provision should be found in the family ; we christ an● have the lords day by the lord christ assigned us for the exercises of pietie , and mercie , in which he offers , and exhibits h●rself in the fruits of his gracious presence in a singular manner to be seen , and injoyed of his , religiously observing the same . let us at no hand ( as alike unmindfull of gods ordinance and mans infirmitie suffer ) the fruit of such a benefit to dy in our hands : but let us accordingly acknowledg the same in thought , word , and work , to his honour , and our own good . chap. viii . of the exercise of prophecie . there are they ( whose names i forbear , for their credits sake ) who have not spared , and that in their publique writings , to lay to our charge , that we will needs have all , and everie member of the church a prophet , and to prophesie publiquely . with what mindes they let loose their tongues to utter these , and manie mo most false and absurde vituperies against us , we leav it to god to judg , who knoweth : with what conscience , and desert of credit therein , unto thee ( christian reader ) into whose hands this our apologie shall come . we learn from the apostle paul 1 cor. 14 , 3. that he who prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification , exhortation , & comfort : which to perform conveniently , and as becomes the church-assemblie , we make account comes within the compasse but of a few of the multitude ; happily two or three in each of our churches , considering their weak , and depressed estate . touching prophesie then we think the verie same , that the synode held at embden 1571 hath decreed in these words . 1. in all churches , whether but springing up , or grown to s●me ripenes , let the order of prophesie be observed , according to pauls institution . 2. into the fellowship of this work are to be admitted not onely the ministers , but the teachers too , as also of the elders and deacons , yea even of the multitude , which are willing to confir their gift receaved of god , to the common utilitie of the church : but so as they first be allowed by the judgment of the ministers , and as the apostle somet●mes said , we beleev , and therefore we speak , so because we beleev with the belgick churches , that this exercise is to be observed in all congregations , therefore we also observ it in ours . of this our both faith & practise , we have these amongst other speciall foundations . the first we fetch from the examples in the iewish church , where libertie both for teaching and disputing publiquely both in temple and synagogue , was freely given to all gifted accordingly , without respect had to any office . if any object , that the examples of christ , and the apostles in this case are incompetent , seeing that christ was furnished with his own , and the apostles with his authoritie ; he alledgeth that which is true in it self , but to small purpose ; considering we lay not our foundation in this , that christ and his apostles so d●d ; but in that libertie so to do , was alwaies , and in all places graunted , & sometimes offered them . this libertie they obteyned not by the authoritie of christ , which the rulers of the synagogues & temple no more acknowledged then they did christ himself : but by the order then receaved , and still continued to this day amongst the iewes , that they whom with the scriptures they call wise men , without all regard of publique office , having any word of exhortation to the people , should say on , as we have it written act. 13 , 23. whereunto ●ad , that divers of them in whom we instance were furnished with no such authoritie specially from christ. the second we take from the apostle paul 1 cor. 14 ▪ where to the full , he informeth the church at corinth of the order of that exercise , which they had formerly violated . which whole order ( according to bezaj is apparently taken , from the receaved custom in the iewish synagogues . which custom saith peter martyr ) seeing it was of ●uld both good and laudable in the synagogues of the iewes , the apostle disdeyns not to transfer it to the church of christ. of which also he tenders this reason , because it was not a legall ceremonie , but servs to the edification of the church . if this be so , then must they needs take their marks amisse , who imagine that the apostle in this place speaks of the extraordinarie gift , and exercise of prophesie . and although it be not like , that the church of corinth was , in that so plenteous effusion of the gifts of the spirit , altogether destitute of extraordinarie prophets , yet that the apostle did not in that place aime at them , may be proved by manie mo , and the same ( as i think ) firm arguments drawn from the self same text . which that i may do the more commodiously , the prudent reader must call to minde , that upon the foundation of the extraordinarie prophets , as well as of the verie apostles , the church is built ; and that that mysterie of christ , by the spirit immediately , and infalliblie inlightining their minde , was in the same manner , though not in all in the same degree , revealed to them , and the other . this so considered , 1. it seems altogether unprobable , that so manie prophets of this ranke ( although inf●riour in gifts ) should have been found in that one small congregation , as the apostle insinuates ver . 24 , 29 , 31 , that corinth had . 2. the apostles in corinth not onely behaved themselvs inordinately in the church , but withall ( as by interpreters from ver . 29 , and 32 is generally delivered were subject to errour in the verie doctrine which they propounded ; which to affirm of the extraordinarie prophets , these skilfull m●ister builders , who together with the apostles la●d the foundation , together participated the same holy spirit , seemeth not a litle to shake the foundation of christian religion . and if one of these extraordinarie prophets might 〈◊〉 , why not they all : and 〈◊〉 the prophets , why not the apostles . and ●f they might 〈◊〉 , how should it appear , that they have not cried ? and so by consequence , what either then was , o● now is the firmnes and certaintie of the christian fa●th ? 3. seeing that the apostle ver . 34 , 35 , injoyns women deep silence in this church exercise , not permitting them a all to speak ; it seems most plain that he hath no●y , nor respect at all , to these extraordinarie gifts and endowments of prophesie authorising even women furnished with them , to speak publiquely , and in mens presence , as appears in mirjam , deborah , huldah , anna , as also even in iezabel her self in regard of order , and others . lastly , the apostle ver . 36 , upbraideth those verie prophets unto whom he directeth his speach , as such , as from whom the word of god came not : but without cause , yea not without notable injurie , if they were extraordinarie prophets , that is , inspired with the holy ghost , and his immediate instruments : seeing that from these kinde of prophets , as well as from paul the apostle the word of god came , though in different degree , and measure . the third foundation of this exercise is laid in the manifould , and the same most excellent ends atteynable onely by this means . 1. that god may be glorified , whilst everie one doth administer to another the gift , which he hath receaved , as good dispensers of the ma●●ssuld grace of god. 2. that the spirit be not extinguished , that is the gift of prophesie , or teaching ; in which it may so come to passe , that some in the church , though no ministers , may excell the verie pastours themselvs . 3. that such as are to be taken into the ministerie of the church , may both become , and appear apt to teach . this seeing the apostle would have done , he would questionlesse have some order for the doing of it : which , excepting this of prophesie , we have none of apostolicall institution . 4. that the doctrine of the church may be preserved pure , from the insection of errour : which is far more easilie corrupted , when some one or two alone in the church speak all , and all the rest have deep , and perpetuall silence enjoyned them . 5. that things doubtfull arising in teaching may be cleared , things obscure opened , things 〈◊〉 convinced ; and lastly , that as by the beating together of two stones 〈◊〉 appeareth , so may the light of the truth more clearly ●hine by disputations , quest●ons , and answers modestly had , and made , and as becomes the church of saints , and worke of god. 6. for the edification of the church , and conversion of them that beleiv not : and this the raither because it apperteyneth not properly to the pasteurs , as pastours , to turn goats or wolves into sheep , but raither to 〈◊〉 the flock and sheep of christ , in which the h. ghost hath made them overseers . 7. and lastly , lest by excluding the commonaltie and multitude from church affairs , the people of god be devided , and charitie lestened , and familiaritie , and good will be extinguished between the order of ministers and people . chap. ix . of temples . to speak nothing of the office of the christian magistrate in demolishing the monuments , and snares of idolatrie ( which these temples want not , if themselvs be not such ) i account that the consideration is one of a temple , as a temple , that is , a holy place , as it is counted of the most , consecrated either to god himself , or to some saint ( made therein a false god , though being a true saint ) whose name it bears ; and which for its magnificent building , and superstitious form agrees far better to the 〈◊〉 religion pompous , and idolatrous as it is , then to the reformed , and apostolicall simplicitie . and another , and the same far divers , of a place , although in the house sometimes consecrated for such a temple , partly naturall , which is simplie necessarie to everie 〈◊〉 action ; partly civill , in which the church may well , and conveniently assemble together . the former use i deem altogether unlawfull ; the latter not so , but lawfull , provided alwaies that the opinion of holines be removed , and withall such blemishes of superstition , as wherewith things lawfull in themselvs are usually stayned . chap. x. of things indifferent . vve do so repute manie things as indifferent , or mean in themselvs and then own nature ( & as houlding a middle place as it were , between the things simplie commaunded , and the things simplie forbidden of god , as that the same things being once drawn into use , and practise , do necessarily undergoe the respect and consideration of good or evill . this the apostle teacheth 1 corinth . 14. in his so diligent warning the church of corinth , that all things be done decently , in order , and to edification . the things then thus accounted indifferent , when they once come into use in the church , do either work the exercises of religion the more comely , orderly , and edificative , and are such as without which , the same exercises cannot be performed but confusedly , uncomelily , and un●iuitfully , at least in part , or els they swarve from the apostolicall canon . with this commaundement of the apostle , yea of christ the lord , agrees the rule of the phylosophers , the accessorie fell●w●th the nature of the principall . for example . let the principall , as they speak , be some naturall good thing , the verie least accessorie or circumstance , by which this principall is rightly , and orderly furthered , and promoted undergoes also the consideration of a naturall good . the same rule houlds in actions civill : much more in the things , which appertein to religion , and gods worship . i therefore conclude , that the least ●ite , or ceremonie serving rightly , and orderly to further the principall act , and exercise of religion , doth worthily obteyn , after a sort , the respect and denomination of a religious , and ecclesiasticall good thing : which principall act if it do not truely , and effectually promote and advance , it is a vain addition at the best , beseeming onely vain purposes , and persons , which worship god in vain , teaching for doctrines mens traditions : seeing whatsoever is to be done in the church , is also , and first to be taught , that so it may be done . 2. whatsoever hath being in nature , is some certain thing first , and properly , and to be reduced to some certain , and distinct head . now all things whatsoever in use , either in , or about gods worship , may and must be referred necessarilie to some one of these three heads . eyther they are things naturall , and simplie necessarie to the exercise ; of which sort are the naturall circumstances of time , and place , without which no finite action can be performed : also for the administring of baptism , either a fonte or other vessell to hould water : and so for other adjoints absolutely necessarie for the administring of the holy things of the church : or secondly , they are things civill , and comely : as for example , a convenient place in which the church may conveniently , and comelily meet together , not a stable , or swynestye , also that habit of the minister , that coveting of the l. table , those ministring vessels , and other accessories , and appurt●nances whatsoever , without which the holy things of god , cannot be dispensed so ●●villy , and comely , as is meet . or lastly , they are properly things sacred , and holy , and by consequence , parts of externall divine worship : and the same either commaunded by god , and so lawfull , or of mans devise , & therefore superst●t●ous . now if any shall further ask me , what power then i ascribe eyther to the civill magistrate , or church-governors for mak●ng lawes about things indifferent ? i answer touching church-governers first , being to treat by and by of the magistrate , that no such power , to speak properly , belongs unto them ; as being not lords but servants of the church , under christ the onely lord thereof : exercising , as saith austin , from christ , and the apostles a m●mb●●● , not a lordship : and who therefore are to learn , if ther will be c●ment with their 〈◊〉 , which 〈◊〉 them , that a 〈◊〉 better becomes them , then as●pter , as bernard speaketh , for to ●●ake lawes , by all mens graunt , belongs to them , and them onely , who do swey ●●●pters , 〈…〉 lords 〈…〉 . moreover the holy scriptures everie where teach , that the highest church-officers , and governers are but ambassadours of god , and interpreters , and proclaymers or cryers of his word . but neither 〈…〉 nor interpreter , nor cryer , no nor the herald , the most honourable of all proclaimers , or publishers of edicts , can commaund any thing 〈◊〉 of the least matter by his own authoritie , as lunius sayth rightly . it is certain , that the governers of churches do stand in need of wisdom and discretion for the applying , & determining of the common rules of order and comlynes taken from the scripture , and common sense , to certain cases , and according to certain circumstances : but what makes this for the power of making lawes in the church ? which as m. perkins makes account , is a part of christs prerogative royall : considering withall , that neyther the church , not the meanest member thereof is further bound unto these their determinations , then they apper to agree with order , and comlines : neither are the ministers in any thing at all , ( as are the magistrates in manie things to be obeyed for the authoritie of the commaunder , but for the reason of the commaundment , which the ministers are also bound in duetie to manifest , & approve unto the consciences of h●m over whom they are set . chap. xi . of civill magistrates . vve beleev the verie same touching the civill magistrate with the belgick reformed churches , and willingly subscribe to their confession : and the more , because , what is by many restreyned to the christian magistrate , they extend indefinitely , and absolutely to the magistrate whomsoever . and that surely upon good ground : seeing the magistracie is one , & the power the same , whether the person be christian or heathen : neither is there wanting in an heathen magistrate ( that he might rule as he ought ) authoritie of order , but will of person : neither is his power increased by the accession of christianitie , but onely sanctified , as is first his person . the prince rules over his subjects , as he is a prince , and they subjects simply , not as faithfull or christian , he or they . onely christ the lord of our faith hath the faithfull ( as faithfull ) for his subjects : neither are the subjects of kings as subjects , ●ame part of the church , but of the kingdom . besides , there is one and the same christian faith of the prince and subject , and all things common unto both , which spring from the same ; seeing that in christ iesus there is neither servant , nor freeman , i ad neither magistrate , nor subject , but all are one in him . as therefore none , no not the least power of publique administrat on comes to the subjects by their christianitie ; to neither is the princes , thereby at all increased . and indeed how can it ? the magistrate though●-heathen hath power , as the minister of god for the good of his subjects to command and procure in and by good , and lawfull manner , and means , whatsoever apperteines either to their naturall , or spirituall life , so the same be not contrarie to gods word : upon which word of god if it beat , god forbid , that the christian magistrate should take libertie to use or rather abuse his authoritie for the same : which yet if he do eyther the one , or other , whether by commanding what god forbids , or by forbidding what god commaunds , seeing it comes by the fault of the person , not of the office , the subject is not f●●ed from the bond of allegiance , but as still tyed to obedience as active for the doing of the thing commanded if it be lawfull , so passive , if unlawfull , by suffering patiently the punishment though unjustly inflicted . lastly if anie civill , and coactive power in things whether civill , or ecclesiasticall , come to the magistrate , by his christianity , then if it so fall out that he make defection from the same , whether by idolatrie , or heresie , or profanes , it must follow , that thereupon his kingly power is dim●nished , and abridged : whereby how wide a window , or gate rather would be opened to sed●tions subjects under pretext ( specially catholick ) religion , to taise tumults in kingdoms , no man can be ignorant . chap. xii . of the church of england . there remains one , and that a great matter of exception against us , and the same the fountain well nigh of all our calamitie : to wit , that we seem evill-affected towards the church of england , and so averse from the same , as that we do no lesse then make a plain secession , and separation from it . i answer , first , that our fayth is not negative : as papists use to object to the euangelicall churches , nor which consists in the condemning of others , and wipeing their names out of the bead-●oul of churches , but in the edifying of our selvs : neither require we of anie of ours in the confession of their fayth , that they either renounce , or in one word contest with the church of england , whatsoever the world clamours of us this way . our faith is founded upon the writings of the prophets , and apostles , in which ●o mention of the church of england is made . we deem it our dutie what is found in them to beleev with the heart to righteousnes , and to confesse with the tongue to salvation . secondly , we accord ( as far as the belgick , and other reformed churches ) with the church of england in the articles of faith , and heads of christian religion published in the name of that church , and to be found in the harmonie of the confessions of fayth . thirdly , if by the church be understood the catholick church dispersed upon the face of the whole earth , we do willingly acknowledg , that a singular part thereof , and the same visible , and conspicuous is to be found in the land , and with it , do professe and practise what in us layes , communion in all things in themselvs lawfull , and done in right order . but and if by the word church be understood a spirituall politick body , such as was in her time , the church of israell ; and in hers the church of rome , corinth , the seven churches of asia , and others with them partaking of the same apostolicall constitution , and as unto which do apperteyn the oracles of god , sacraments , censures , government , and ministerie ecclesiasticall , with other sacred institutions of christ ; i cannot but confesse , and professe ( though with great greif ) that it is to us matter of scruple , which we cannot overcome , to give that honour unto it , which is due from the servants of christ to the church of christ , rightly collected , and constituted . and , that there may be place left in the eyes of the prudent reader for our defence in this case , so far forth as equitie and reason will permit , he must once , and again be intreated by me , seriously to weigh with himself , and in his heart , this one advertizement following . that a man may do a thing truely pleasing , and acceptable to god , it sufficeth not , that both the door in his person be accepted of god , the thing done commaunded by god , and that he do it with good , and holy affection before god , except withall , and first he be possessed of that state , & condition of life , which may affoard him a lawfull calling to that work . that a man , though never so good , with never so good a minde , should exercise the office , or do ( though the best ) works of a magistrate , father of famillie , housband , steward , citizen , or messenger , except he were first lawfully called , and preferred to the state of a magistrate , maister of sam●lie , housband , or the like ; so far were he from deserving anie praise for so doing , as on the contrarie he most justly incur●ed the censure of great rashnes , and violation of all order in familie and common wealth ; as taking unto himself that honour , unto which he was not called of god. the same houldeth , and that specially in course of religion , which is the specially state of mans life : so as if anie either as a pastour dispence the holy things of the ministeriall church , without a lawfull pastorall calling going before ; or participate in the same , out of a just , and lawfull church-state ; neither that dispensation , nor this participation can be warranted , but both the one , and other are usurpations , and in which is seen not the use , but abuse of holy things , and confusion of order . and as it behoveth everie person first to beleev , and know , that he is truly a christian , and partaker of the grace of christ , before he can hope to please god in the performance of this or that particular christian work ; so doth it also concern everie christian to provide , that he be first possessed of a just , and lawfull church-order , before he so much as touch with his least finger the holy things of the church thereunto proper , and peculiar . proper , i say , & peculiar , amongst which i do not simpl●e reckon the hearing of the word , which both lawfullie may , and necessarily ought to be done , not onely of christians though members of no particular church , but even of infidels , prophane persons , excommunicates , and any others : as being that in which no communion spirituall passeth , either ecclesiasticall , or personall , between the teacher , & heater , but according to some union ecclesiasticall or personall going before : seeing that christian saith comes by hearing the gospell , by faith union , & from union communion . this thus prem sed , i will speak a few things of the church of england ; not by way of accusation of it , but for our own purgation in the eyes of the godly , and equall reader , of the imputed c●ime of schism , so far as truth , and equitie will bear . and first , seeing that the people of god is materially ( as they speak , the church of god , it is required to the constitution of a holy church of god , that the people be holy , or saints and sanctified i● christ iesus : truely , and internally in regard of god , and their own consciences ; externally , and in appearance in respect of others , whom it concerns to discern and judg of them , according to the word of god , and rule of charitie . and considering that our question is about the church externall , and visible , as it is called , we are not so fond , or raitha● frant●ck , as to require , in respect of others , other holynes in the members thereof , then that which is visible and externall . now how marvaylous a thing is it , and lamentable withall , that amongst christians anie should be found so far at ods , with christian holines , as to think that others then apparently holy at the least , deserved admittance into the fellowship of christs church , and therewith of christ ? do , or can the grat●ous promises of god made to the church , the heavenly blessings due to the church , the seales of divine grace given to the church , apperteyn to others then such ? are others to be admitted into the familie of god , the kingdom of christ , and as it were the suburbs of heaven ? the church of god is by him called , and destinated to advance his glorie in the holynes of their lives , and conversations ; what then have those to do with it , or it with those , who , as calvin saith , live not but with gods dishonour ? for they , as the same author both truly and holily affirmeth ) who are called , and accounted the people of god , do bear as it were in their forheads , the name of god , whereupon it cannot but come to passe , that before men even god himself after a sort should be steyned with their filth . and this i deem the raither to be observed , seeing that there are to be found , and these not a few , who would thrust upon the churches of our thrice holy lord , a verie stage-like holynes : stoutly striveving to make it good , that to constitute a true , and lawfull member of the visible church , no more is required , then that a man with his mouth confesse christ , although in his works he plainly declare himself to be of the synagogue of sathan . but what saith the holy spirit of these impure spirits ? they professe they know god , saith the apostle , but in their works they deny him , being abhominable , and rebellious , and to everie good work reprobate . are abhominable persons to be brought into the temple of god ? rebellious persons into the kingdom of god ? such as are reprobate unto everie good work into the familie of god , which is as it were the storehouse of all good works ? if anie one that is called a brother , be a fornicatour , or covetous , or idolatour , or rayler , or drunkard , or extortioner , or anie waie a wicked one , such a one by the apostles direction , is to be expelled , and driven out of the churches confines . and seeing that , as one truly saith , it is a matter of greater contumelie to thrust out , then to keep out a guest , with what conscience can such plagues be receaved into the church , to the purgeing out wherof the same church , furnished for that end with the power of christ , stands in conscience bound ? or by what authoritie i pray , can such persons be compelled into the bosom of the spouse of christ , as for the expelling of whom far from her fellowship , & imbraceing all authoritie ought to conspire ? he that saith he hath fellowship with god , and walks in darknes is a lyer , and doth not truly . profession of christ therefore with the mouth , in those that work the works of darknes , and so by consequence , that by which a man is raither branded for a naturall child of the divell , then marked for a true member of the church . lastly , david that holy man of god , and tipe of christ , doth holily professe , that he who works deceipt , shall not continue in his house : and shall the workers of decept , and of all wickednes not onely be admitted , but even constreyned into the house of the living god , which the church is : o iehovah , holynes becometh thine house to length of dayes . which notwithstanding ( a sicknes desperate of all remedie ) that so it stands with the church of england , no man to whom england is known , can be ignorant : seeing that all the natives there , and subjects of the kingdom , although never such strangers from all shew of true pietie , and goodnes , and fraught never so full with manie most heynous impieties , and vices ( of which ranck whether there be not an infinite , and far the greater number , i would to god it could with anie reason be doubted ) are without difference compelled , and inforced by most seveere lawes civill & ecclesiasticall , into the bodie of that church . and of this confused heap ( a few , compared with the rest , godly persons mingled among ) is that nationall church , commonly called the church of england , collected , and framed . and such is the materiall constitution of that church . but if now you demaund of me , how it is formally constituted ; & whether upon profession of fayth , and repentance ( in word at least ) made by them of years , any combynation , and consociation of the members into particular congregations , ( which consociation doth formally constitute the ministeriall church , and members thereof , as both the scriptures and reason manifest ) either is , or hath been made since the universall and antichristian apostasie and defection in poperie ? nothing lesse ; but onely by their parrish perambulation , as they call it , and standing of the houses in which they dwell . everie subject of the kingdom dwelling in this or that parrish , whether in cittie , or countrie , whether in his own or other mans house , is thereby , ipso facto , made legally a member of the same parrish in which that house is situated : and bound , will he , nill he , fit , or unfit , as with iron bonds , and all his with him , to participate in all holy things , & some unholy also in that same parrish church . if any object , that yet the minister of the parish may suspend from the supper of the lord flagitious persons , and so by complaint made to m. chancelour , or m. officiall , procure their excommunication ; to let passe , that this is meerly a matter of form for the most part , and a remedie as ill , as the disease , i do answer , that even by this is proved undeniablie that which i intend : viz. that all these parrishioners before mentioned , are not without , but within , and members of the church ( and the same , as before constituted ) whom she judgeth . there is besides these a third evill in the way , and the same as predominant , and overtopping all other things in that church , as was saul higher then all the rest of the people : and with whose rehoboam-like ●inger we miserable men are pressed , and oppressed : and that is , the hierarchicall church government in the hands of the lord bishops and their substitutes : ( the verie same with that of rome , the pope the head onely cut off , upon whose shoulders also many , though not without notable injurie , would place the supreme magistrate ) and administred by the self same canon law . now this vast , and unsatiable hierarchicall gulfe , swallowing up and devouring the whole order , and use of the presbyterie , and therewith the peoples libertie , and withall , by m. parkers testimonie ( with whom a bishop in england is the pastour of the whole diocesse , and the priests or ministers , onely his delegates and helpers ) the verie office of the pastours themselvs , as did the seaven lean , and evill favoured kine the seaven fat , and the seaven wizened ears the seaven full that went before them , and so by consequence , not being of christ the lord , but of him rayther , who opposeth and advanceth himself against whatsoever is called god , or is worshiped ; so as he sits in the temple of god , as god , ( for unto god alone dwelling in his temple it apperteyns to appoint the offices of the ministers , & to prescribe the peoples bonds ) our hands are bound by that supreme , and sole authoritie of iesus christ in his churches , upon which both the order of presbyterie , and libertie of people , and office of pastour are founded , and from whom as the one onely lord , all ecclesiasticall power floweth , and by whom all ministeries are instituted , from giving any the least honour or obedience to the same hie●archicall exaltation in it self , or its subordinates , which ( as phylosophi● teacheth ) are one with it . wherein yet i would not so be understood , as if we were at anie defiance with the persons of the bishops , much lesse with the kings civill authoritie whereof they are possessed , whether in matters civill or ecclesiasticall . of their persons their own lords shall judg , to whom they stand or fall . there have been of that ranke who in our marian da●es have preferred the profession of the truth of the gospell before their lives : i hope there are also of their successours , who , if pressed with the same necessitie ( which god forbid ) would give the same testimonie , though at the same rate , unto the same truth of god revealed unto them . now as concerning their civill authoritie ; albeit we do not beleev , that the same is at all competent to the true ministers of the gospell , especially in that eminencie , externall glorie , and pompe of this world , in which they far exceed manie worldly princes , and rayther seem to represent the tryumphant , then the militant church ; yet for so much as they both obteyn the same by the gift of the king , and exercise it in his name , we do not unwillingly yeald honour , and obedience unto it , and to his majestie in it . but whereas it seems unto manie plain , and evident , that we may adjoin our selvs to the church of england without any subjection , or relation unto the spirituall government , and governers thereof ; that is altogether beyond our capacities : neither can we comprehend it , how it may be that he , who subjects , and joyns himself to anie publique , and politique bodie , or communitie , whether spirituall , or civil , becomes not in so doing , ipso facto , subject to the publique government , and governers thereof , and undergoes not a relation , and respect actually unto them . they raither are with all seriousnes to consider , how faythfully , and sincerely they quit themselvs , and their consciences before god , and men , who contending , and proving in and by so manie words , and arguments , that the hierarchicall government is papall , and antichristian , do neverthelesse submit themselvs thereunto both in the respect , and relation politicall formerly mentioned , and also in acts properly ecclesiasticall , into which the ecclesiasticall government , and spirituall policie of the church doth necessarily diffuse it self . now i do earnestly entreat thee , whosoever thou art , acquainted with belgick , or raither christian libertie , and either free from the mists of prejudice , or if anie way prejudiced , yet not chusing raither to serve a preconceaved opinion , then to follow an apparent truth , that thou wouldest truly & ingenuously tell , whether if the magistrates here ( from which they are far ) should by publique edict , under severe penaltie constreyn all , and everie the native subjects of the countrie into the bosom of the church , without anie difference made , either in respect of fayth or manners , according to the place of their habitation , and should set over this church so collected and constituted , an hierarchicall bishop provinciall or diocesan , in whose hands alone , with his officials , chauncellours , commissaries , archdeacons , and other court-keepers , canonicall authoritie should be placed , to constitute and depose ministers , excommunicate , and absolve both ministers , and people , yea whole churches ( yea with the living the dead , that they may obteyn christian buriall ) : whether now in this confused heap , and under this spirituall lordship , thou wouldest endure to remain either pastour or member . i suppose not . you ( brethren ) have not so learned christ ; whom you acknowledg both for the author of your faith , and instituter of your order ecclesiasticall . neyther yet we , having learned otherwise by the grace of god. christ the king doth gather , and form unto himself another kinde of kingdom amongst men , and the same to be administred by other officers , and according to other lawes . and if no place upon the face of the ●ruth should be free for us ( poore creatures ) refusing upon meer conscience of god ( as thou god the judg , and searcher of hearts knowest ) to commingle , and prostitute our selvs in and unto this confusion , and domination hierarchicall , we have most assured hope , that heaven it self is open for us by christ , who is the way , and whom in this dutie also we do serve , in which we shall at the length be fully free from this , and all other incumbrances . our adversaries bear in hand not onely others , but even us our selvs also , that we do for certain trifleing matters , & as they speak , circumstantiall corruptions , sequester our selvs from the church of england . and as nurses use to lisp with children , so they , that they might discend to our capacities , do oft and much instruct us , that unworthie members must be born in the church , especially of private persons ; that some corruptions at least in the discipline and externall rites , are to be tolerated ; that there may be the temple of god , though prophaned ; the holy cittie though without a wall ; the feild of the lord , though the enemie sowtares amongst the wheat ; also a heap of wheat , though much chaffe commingled therewithall . and that we , dul-bayards as we are ; may at the length conceav those things , they verie seriously inculcate & whet upon us in these & the like considerations : as that the israelitish church in its time was steyned with almost all enormities , both for manners and fayth : that ●nto the same all israelites and iewes whatsoever without difference , were violently compelled by king iosiah and others ; as also , that in the parable , all were compelled to come to the mariage , good and bad , that the house might be filled . lastly , that in the apostolick churches themselvs , there were not wanting some who practised , and others who taught vile , and evill things : that in one place the discipline was neglected , in another the verie doctrine of fayth corrupted , and manie the like matters , which it were to long to repeat . surely , foolish were we if we knew not these things , impudent , if we denyed them to be true for the most part ; and lastly , unequall , if we acknowledged not , that manie the same , or like blemishes after a sort , will , and do creep into the churches of our dayes : which yet to disclaym as unlawfull for the same , stood neither with wisdom , nor charitie . but the prudent reader may plainly observe by the premises , that they are other matters , and of greater weight , for the most part , wherewith we , and our consciences are pressed . we do not judg it an evill intollerable ( though greatly to be bewayled ) that evill men should be suffered in the church ; but that all of most vile , and desperate condition , that such , and so great a kingdom affoards , should thereinto will they , nill they , be compelled : nor that the discipline ( as they call it ) or ecclesiast call government instituted by christ , is neglected or violated , but that another plain contrarie unto it is set up by law , and fully , and publiquely everie where exercised : neither lyes our exception against any personall , or acc●dentarie profanation of the temple , but against the faultie frame of it , in respect of the causes constitutive , matter and form : neither strive we about the walles of the cittie , but about the true , and lawfull citizens , the policie and government of the cittie of god , and essentiall administration of the same . but to give more ful satisfaction to the indifferent reader , it seems worth the labour to descend particularly to a few , and the same the cheifest objections made on the contrarie behalf . and of them , that which may and ought to be said touching the church of israel , & its condition compared with the christian churches seems to deserve the first place . and touching it ; first , the constitution of the church of israel is not to be considered in that whole , much lesse apostaticall , nation , but in holy abraham , from whom it came , & in whom it was holy , as the lump in the first fruits , & the branches in the holy root : and that by vertue of the gratious covenant , i will be thy god , & the god of thy seed , first contracted with abraham himself , & after renued with his seed , whole israell . but now to affirm any such thing of the whole english nation were foolish ; to prove it impossible . 2. god doth not now a daies select , & seve● from others as his peculiar , anie whole nation or people , as sometimes he did the people of israel , both ecclesiastically , & civilly : but in everie nation they who feare god , & work righteousnes are accepted of him . these , in what natiō soever combyning together in holy covenant , and worshiping god after the prescript of his h. word are that holy nation , the common wealth of israel , the israel of god , the temple & tabernacle of the living god , in which he hath promised to dwell : these he would have scattered in all places of the world , & to hould intercourse with the men of the world in the common affairs of this life , for their gaming if it may be unto christ : god adding dayly unto the church such as should be saved . whereas on the contrarie , unto the church of england , whereof all natural english are together , & at once made members , it can hardly be , if at all , that anie at anie time should be added . 3. the verie land of canaan was legally holy , & the land of the lords inheritance , & whose fruit was to be circumcised , & her sabbaths kept , by the lords appointment : & in which alone by divine ●●ght 〈◊〉 were to be payed . and as holy things are not to be mingled with , or prost●tuted unto prophane , so neither was anie place in this land to be permitted unto prophane persons to dwell in . the seven prophane nations , which formerly had inhabited it , were altogether to be destroyed by the israelites being to possesse it for their inheritance , neither was mercie to be shewed them . after , if any , whether born in the land , or strangers , did ought with an high hand , he was to be cut off from among his people . herewith accords that of david the king , i will betime destroy all the wicked of the land . lastly , ●e that did not seek the lord god of israell with all his heart , was to be put 〈◊〉 death , whether small or great , whether man or woman . far be it from godly princes , & other potentates in the world , to think , that it behooveth them in this rigorous manner to deal with their subjects : although there want not , who partly from a preposterous , & iudaizeing zeal , & partly to serv their own ambition , cease not to inculcate unto the kings of the earth , above that is meet , the examples of the kings of iudah . 4. it is not true that the kings of iudah or israel did const●●yn any into the church by force , or compel them to undergo the condition of members , but only being members , to do their dutie . all the israel●tes and posteritie of iakob , had their part in the lords covenant : unto which also they were bound to stand under perill of cutting off from the lords people , both spiritually & bodily , according to the dispensation of the ould testament in the land of canaan . but of this our question is not for the present : that neither is to be considered , whether king david , salomon , iehosaphat & others did force circumcision , & other mosaicall institutions upon the edom●tes , ammonites , and others by them subdued , & held in civill subjection ; or whether they compelled them by coactive lawes , would they , nould they , fit or unfit , into the church of god. that this was so , cannot be affirmed with modestie : which yet except it so were , hath nothing in it , which e●ther can hurte our cause , or help our adversaries . lastly , he who well weigheth with himself what legall , and typicall holines was in use of old in israel , shadowing out the true , & sp●ritual holines ; and withall by how much , both the more clear revelat on of heavenly things , & more plenteous grace of the spirit ●s afforded to the churches since christ , then was formerly to israel , he shall see manie things making for the tolerating of much in israel ; which in us 〈◊〉 plainly intollerable : and that god will not use that patience & long-suffering towards any church now , nor permit , or wink at those things in it , which for the hardnes of their hearts , he bore in that ancient people . the parable of the tares matth. 13. followeth ; with which as with some thunderboult , men both learned , and unlearned think us beaten all to fitters . but first , these words , let both grow togither till the harvest , v. 30. ( frō which alone they do dispute ) christ the lord doth not expound nor meddle with , in the opening of the parable : from them therefore nothing firm can be concluded . 2. christ him●elf interprets the feild , not the churh , but the world v. 38. as also the harvest not the end of the church , but of the world , v. 39. and if by the world , you understand the church , you must needs say , that christ in the expounding of one parable , used another . 3. both the text it self , & reason of the thing do plainly teach that he doth not speak at all of excommunication , which servs for the bettering of the tares , but of their finall rooting up to perd●tion . lastly , admit christ spake of men apparently wicked in the church , either not to be excommunicated in certain cases ( which with gellius snecanus i confidently denie ) or not excommunicated as they ought to be , & therefore to be born of private members ; the former of which is too ordinarie , especially in churches enjoying peace , & prosperitie : the latter of which ( the church not being desperately bent on evill ) i easily assent to , yet doth this place affoard no medicine for our grief ; which ariseth not from any corrupt , or negligent administration of the churches discipline , thorough the car●lesnes or want of wisdom ( it may be too much wisdom such as it is ) of the administers thereof , which are personall things ; but from the verie constitution of the church it self , & subject of ecclesiasticall both government and power . yea , i ad unto all these things , that we for our parts are willing in the busines , and controversie in hand to appeal unto the tribunall of this verie parable , and that expounded by our adversaries themselvs , & do willingly condiscend , that by it alone judgment be given in this matter . our saviour christ doth plainly teach , that this feild was sown with good seed alone ; & that after , whilst men slept , the enemie , the divel came , & sowed ●ares amongst the wheat . but on the contrarie , in the sowing the english f●●ld , whether we respect the nat●onall or parochiall churches , together with the wheat the tares , & that exceeding the other infinitely , were at first , & yet are sown , & that of purpose , & under most severe penalt●●s . and hence is the first & princ●pall pr●judice to our english harvest , & frō which i conceav all the rest to come . for unto this ch. thus clapped , & clouted together of all persons of all sorts , & spirits without difference , no man equally & prudently weighing things , can denie , but that the pompous & imperious hierarchicall government , together with all its accessories doth right well accorde . to the things objected from the parable of the mariage luke 14. & mat. 22. i onely answer , that those servants were the prophets and apostles ; the son christ himself ; the compulsion to be made no otherwise , then by the preaching of the word : by which , as calvin hath it , god doth importunately sollicit our slo●thfulnes , not onely pricking us with exhortations , but cōpelling us with threatnings to come unto him : which word of god as it is by some wholly contemned , so doth it extort from others , onely an externall & hypocritical obedience , but by manie is receaved , through the blessing of god , with al holy & devout affection . now unto these pa●ables of christ manie are wont , and that very busily , to annex one of their own . a heap , say they , of wheat although it have much chaf mixed with it , & the 〈◊〉 more in quantitie then the wheat is , 〈◊〉 notwithstanding truly , & is rightly termed a heap of wheat ; according to the phylo●ophers rule , the den●mination to not of the greater , but better part . i answer ; first , that this axiom is not simply true : for if in the church , or any other convention popular , or in which things passe by voyces , the greater part hap to exceed the better , the denominat on of that passage , or decree , and so the whole processe of the matter , is according to the greater , though the worser part . 2. the chaf in that wheat is either of the same wheat , or of other , & brought from els where : if of that same , then it makes nothing to the present purpose , since wicked men appe●●ein not to the persons of the godly , no● are their chaf : if of other , & from els where , it may easily be added in that quantitie & proportion , as that neither it may deserv the name of an heap of wheat , but of chaf ; nor he that sels it for wheat , of an honest merchant , but of a deceiptfull impostour . 4. the things objected from the apostolicall churches are altogether personall , & accidentall ; from which that the churches gathered of men , and by men governed , should be exempted , is ●aither to be desired , then hoped for . but for us , the things which most afflict us in the ch. of england , & presse us in the respect fore-mentioned to a secession from the same , do concern the verie materiall , & formall constitution of the ministeriall church , together with the essentiall administration of the church-policie . and how different these things are , who seeth not ? lastly , it is objected , that in the ch. of england lively faith , & true pietie are both begotten , and nourished , in the hearts of many , by the preaching of the gospell there . god forbid , that we should not acknowledg that , & withall , that infinite thanks for the same are due to gods great power & goodnes , both in respect of our selvs and others : who notwithstanding the great confusion , both of persons , and things there to be found , vouchsafeth to his elect so plentifull grace , covering under the vayl of his superaboundant goodnes & mercy , by their ●●ncere fayth in christ iesus , their sins & aberrations , whether of ignorance , or infirmitie . what then must be done ? should we continue in sin , that grace might abound ? or shall we against knowledg go on to walk inordinately , because in our ignorance god hath vouchsafed us of his grace in that disordered state of things ? without the ministerial church ( of which we speak ) the preaching of the gospell both may , & useth to be had , & by it sayth to be ingenerated , except christian churches be to be gathered of infidels & unbeleevers . besides , what minos , or rha●amant will deny , that even in the bosom of the romish church some fa●thfull persons may be found ? how much more in that of england , in which the main truths of the gospell , the most & greatest errours of poperie being banished , are taught by so manie godly & learned men , with such zeal , and earnestnes ? now what of these things ? is it therefore lawfull for a christian , eyther to content himself with himself , without joyning to any christian congregation ; or to continue still in the bosom of the church of rome , as a member under the pope th● head ? i therefore conclude out of m. brightman , whose words i had raither use then mine own , speaking of the government & ministerie of the church of england , the fruit , to wit , of the word preached , doth no more exempt from blame our corruptions , then a true child doth adulterie . and here thou hast ( christian reader ) the whole order of our conversation in the work of christian religion , set down both as breifly , and plainly , as i could . if in anie thing we●er , advertise us brotherly , with desire of our information , & not ( as our countrimens manner for the most part is ) with a minde of reproaching us , or grat fying of others : and whom thou findest in errour , thou shalt not leave in obstinacie , nor as having a minde prone to schism . e●re we may ( alasse too easily ) : but heretiques ( by the grace of god ) we will not be ? but & if the things which we do , seem ●ight in thine eyes , ( as to us certainly they do ) i do earnestly , & by the lord iesus admonish and exhort thy godly minde , that thou wilst neither withould thy due obedience frō his truth , no● just succour from thy distressed brethren . neither do thou indure , that either the smalnes of the number , or meannes of the ●ondition of those that professe it , should prejudice with thee the pro●ssion of the truth : but have in minde that of te●tullian , do we measure mens faith by their persons , or their persons by their faith ? as also that of austin , let matter weigh with matter , and cause with cause , and rea●●● with reason : but especially that of the apostle , my brethren , have 〈◊〉 the faith of our glorious lord iesus christ in respect of persons . but now , it so come to passe ( which god forbid ) that the most being eyther forestalled by prejudice , or by prosperitie made secure , there be few found especially men of learning , who will so far vouchsafe to stoop , as to look upon so despised creatures , and their cause ; this alone remaineth that we turn our faces & mouths unto thee ( o most powerfull lord , & gratious father ) humbly imploreing help from god towards those , who are by men left desolate . there is with thee no respect of persons , neither are men lesse regarders of thee , if regarders of thee , so the worlds disregarding them . they who truly fear thee , and wo●● righteousnes , although constreyned to live by leav in a forrain land , exiled from countrie , spoyled of goods , destitute of freinds , few in number , and mean in condition , are for all that unto thee ( o gratious god ) nothing the lesse acceptable : thou numbrest all their wandrings , and puttest their tears into thy bottels : are they not written in thy book ? towards thee , o lord , are our eyes ; confirm our hearts , & bend thine ear , and suffer not our feet to slip , or our face to be ashamed , o thou both just , and mercifull god. to him through christ be praise , for ever , in the church of saints ; and to thee ( loving and christian reader ) grace , peace , and eternall happines . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a10834-e100 ierom to p●●●mach . ioh. 3. tertullian 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 . cypr. tr●ct . 〈…〉 psal. 22 , 9. act. 15. 21. harmonie of confess . of the script . art. 6 , conf. belg. preface to the ●arm of confess . act. 2 , 42. heb. 10 , 25. te●tul apol. ch . 37. 1 cor. 10. 17 act. 20 , 17 , 28. iunius 〈◊〉 . lib. 1 , cap. 2. object . answ. see sadell against tur. in solut . 2. sylog on math. 1● . scalig de subul . ex●● . ●07 . 1 cor. 12 , 27. 2 cor. 6 , 10● & 11 , 2. 〈◊〉 . ●n prov. eph. 4 , 4 , 5. see i●arm . of c●nfess . belg. & french , calvin , be●a . &c. c●los . 2 , 11 , 12. 1 cor. 5 , 12. t●●tul of ●ipt . ch . 18. iu●us annot . in ide● cap. psay 29 , 13. mat. 28 , 10. co●os . 2 , 23. 1 〈◊〉 . 3. 1● . 〈◊〉 6. iam. 5. 17. 1 cor. 14 , 16 ● phes 5 , 19. colos. 3 , 16. scalig. po●t . li 1. c● . 2. iude 21. cyprian . de ●at . domin . mat. 6 , 6. iam. 4 , 13. calv. in iam. ch . 4. v. 15. idem in mat 6 , 9. vrsiu●s , b●can●s , piscator , p●●●ins , &c. tertull lib. de ora● . exod. 4 , 22. see m. 〈◊〉 son of written 〈◊〉 . gal. 6 , 16. calvin . in gene● . c. 27 1. 1 tim. 2 , 8 ▪ bucanus cōm●n places of prayer . 1 thes. 5 , 19. 1 cor. 12 , 7. act. 6. 2 cor. 2 , 16. rom. 8 , 26. t●tul . apol. against the gentles . zac. 12 , 10. rom. 8 , 26 , iude ●0 . zac 11 , 15. 1 tim. ● 2. tit. 1 , 5 , 7 , 9 〈…〉 gov . nam . p4 . 32 , 33 , 44. pag. 34. 35 , 36. act. 20 , 17 , 28. 〈◊〉 . 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. numb . 8. i●vi . 17 , 9 , 10. 1 tim. 5 , 21. ●nd 6 , 14. 1 corm . 14 , 37. 1 tim. 5 , 11 , ●2 . colos. 4 , 17. 1 thes 5 , 12 , 13. 1 tim. 5 , 17. act. 20 , 17 , 28. 1 cor. 10 , 17 act. 2 , 44 , 45. 1 tim. 5 , 20. beza in ann . on the place . math. 18 , 15 1● , 17. beza , zanch●us , parker , g bucer , &c. aug●●●t of ch●●● . 〈◊〉 lib. 3. bish of winch●●● , ans●●● to tertus pa. 43. 2 ge●in . 11 , 28. ver . 1 , 2 , 4 , 7 ▪ 13. v. 1. 7. i●s . 9. 11. ch . 7 , 9 , 11. and 2 , 7 , 8. see the bishop of church , answer to tertus p. 41 , 42. whitakers of the authoritie of the script . lib. 1. see 〈…〉 chap. 2. pet. ma● . 〈◊〉 1 ●or . ch . 5. act. 1. cyprian l. 1. epist. 4. ver . 15. gal. 1 , 1. calvin in act. 1. act. 6. act. 14. 1 tim. 3. tit. 1. act 15. see whit k. of the author . of ii. 〈◊〉 lib. 1 , ch . 5. sect . 1. see iohan. wolph . in 2 long . c. 23. 〈◊〉 . against heres . ●ib . 3. theodor. dial . 1. tertull. against hermog . mat. 28 , 20. ● cor. 14 , 37 ch . 4. 1. a cor. 5 , 5. ● tim. 3. 2 cor. 4 , 5. 1 tim. 4 , 16 , ch . 5 , 17 , 18. cypr. epist. 4 , li. 4 , 1. math. 18. 1 corinth . 5. chrisost. in epist. to tit , see bodin of commonu● . book 1. chap. last . 1 cor. 12. 28 1 tim. 5 , 17 heb. 13 , 17. act. 20 , 18. 1 cor. 14 , 34 , 35. 1 tim. 2 , 12. exod. 31 , 13 exod. 20. 〈◊〉 . 3 , 16 , ● . k●ch●m . cu●s phyl . d●●p . 28 , c. 6. g●n . 1 , 27. & 2 , 22. chem. ●xam . part . 2 of mar . bu●anu● in commo● places . 〈…〉 pag. 11 , 12. math. 5 , 18. exod. 25 , & 26. exod. 20. num. 29 , 38 ex●d . 20. ephes. 6 , 2. 2 cor. 8. 17 luke 7 , 28. calv. in act 1 , 3. ioh. 20 , 19 26. luke 24. 36 〈◊〉 gen 2 , 2. mat. 28 , 18. act. 20 , 26. 1 cor. 4 , 1. 1 cor. 14 , 37 act. 20 , 66 , 27. 1 cor. 16 , 1 , 2. rev 1. 10 ▪ ●gnat ad magnes . ●ull . martyr . apol. 2. tertull. de idol eus●b . l. 4 , 23 de dionis . august . de verb. apoll. serm . 15. 1 pet. 1 , 3. esay 58 , 13. gal. 4 , 1. esay . 58 , 13 , 14. colos. 2 , 16. 17. exod. 31 , 13. armin. in theol . disp . pr●v . p. 186 , 187. gen. 49 , 3. gal. 3. 8 , 16 , 17. mat. 24 , 20 chrisost ho●● 77. 〈◊〉 mat. 24. 〈◊〉 . 3. var 〈…〉 〈…〉 gen. 2 , 2. harm synod 〈◊〉 . pag. 21 22. 2 cor. 4. 13. luke 2 , 46 , 47 & 〈◊〉 4 , 15 , 16. ad. 8 , 4 n●th 11 19 , 20. 21. & ch . 13. 14 15 16 & ch . 18 , 24 , 25 , 26 , & ● in. 18 , 18. mat. 23. 34. 1 cor. 1 , 20. 〈…〉 1 cor 14 〈…〉 p. 1. 〈◊〉 on 1 cor. 14 , 31. ●ph . 2 , 20. ch . 3 , 4. 5. fool 15 , 21. iudg. 5 , 1. ● kin. 22 , 14 〈◊〉 2 , 36. apoc. 2 , 20. 1 pet. 4 , 10 , 11. 1 this. 5 , 9 2● . 1 tim. 1 , 3. 1 ioh. 4. 1. apo. 2 , 2 , 7. with c. 1 , 11. see 〈◊〉 . acent . ●ra●ag . ●ath . pag. 168 , 169. iuke 2 , 40. & 4 , 21 , 2● . act. 17 , 2. & 18 , 24 , 26 , 28. 1 cor 14 35 〈…〉 l. 6 , c. 12 , 3● 1 cor. 14 , 4 , 24 , 25. act. 20 28. 〈◊〉 against tu●● . s●●h . pa. 67 , 68. 〈◊〉 mart. in 1 〈◊〉 . 14 , 29. 〈…〉 2 , 15. pet. mart 〈◊〉 2 〈◊〉 . 10 , 27. ioh. wolph ●n 2 king. 17 , 19 , and 19 , 6. math. 15 , 9. izec . 44. 11 ma● . 20. 2● . 2 cor. 4 , 5. 1 pet. 1 , 3. august of the 〈◊〉 of god l. 19. b●r●t . of caus. 〈◊〉 . 2. 〈◊〉 contr . 3. l. 5 , c. 7 , 〈…〉 c. 18. 〈…〉 on 2 〈◊〉 . of 〈◊〉 . ●p of ch●● . to ●citus ● . 35. r●n . 13 , 4. rom. 10 , 10 ▪ he●● . 5. 4. rom 1 , 7. 1 cor. 1 , 2. 2 cor. 1 , 1. calvin in 1 conn . c. 5. idem in rom. 2 , 24. revel . 4. 8. tit. 1 , 16. 1 cor. 5. 1 ioh. 1 , 6. ioh. 8. 40. psa. 101 , 7. psal. 93 , 5. 1 corin. 5 , 11 , 12. park . eccles . pol 3 , 35. and hier. generally . gen. 41. 2 thes. 2 , 4. 1 chran . 29 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 19. 1 cor. 5 , 4. ch , 12 , 5 , 28. rom. 14 , 14 theodoret. dial. 1. colos. 2 , 5. rom. 11 , 16. gen. 17. 7. exod 10. 6. l●v. ●0 25. act. 10 , 35. 1 cor 5 , 10. act. 2 , 42. 〈…〉 19 , ●● , 25. gen. 14. 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 7 , 15 num. 1● . 13. 〈…〉 15. 12 1● . see rev. 2 , 5. and 3 , 16. & ●●thall par●u● on 1 cor. 7 , 11. vers . 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. se● s●ee . of ch . di●cip . 2 part m●th . 2. p. 24 , 27 , 25 28. calvin in math. 22 , 9. m. bright on rev ch vers . 26. ter●u● pre●er 〈◊〉 heret . austin against maxim. 3 , 14. iames 2 , 1. certayne letters, translated into english, being first written in latine. two, by the reverend and learned mr. francis iunius, divinitie reader at leyden in holland. the other, by the exiled english church, abiding for the present at amsterdam in holland. together with the confession of faith prefixed: where vpon the said letters were first written junius, franciscus, 1545-1602. 1602 approx. 192 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 30 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2006-06 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a20920 stc 7298 estc s105409 99841137 99841137 5697 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a20920) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 5697) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1234:28, 1525:05) certayne letters, translated into english, being first written in latine. two, by the reverend and learned mr. francis iunius, divinitie reader at leyden in holland. the other, by the exiled english church, abiding for the present at amsterdam in holland. together with the confession of faith prefixed: where vpon the said letters were first written junius, franciscus, 1545-1602. r. g., fl. 1602. junius, franciscus, 1545-1602. christian letter. johnson, francis, 1562-1618. ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622? [2], 57, [1] p. printed, [amsterdam] : in the yeare. 1602. preface signed by the translator of the junius letters: r.g. a reprint of "a christian letter", 1602, with additions and answers answers. the replies are signed by francis johnson and others. prior publication in latin not traced. the confession of faith is attributed to henry ainsworth. place of publication from stc. p. 5-30 identified as stc 18434 on umi microfilm reel 1525. reproductions of the originals in the henry e. huntington library and art gallery and the bodleian library. appears at reel 1234 (henry e. huntington library and art gallery copy) and at reel 1525 (bodleian library copy). created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user 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unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brownists -controversial literature. 2005-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-03 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2006-03 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion certayne letters / translated into english / being first written in latine . two , by the reverend and learned mr. francis iunius , divinitie reader at leyden in holland . the other , by the exiled english church , abiding for the present at amsterdam in holland . together with the confession of faith prefixed : where vpon the said letters were first written . esa . 53.1 . who beleveth our report , and to whom is the arme of the lord revealed ? printed in the yeare . 1602. r.g. the translatour of m. iunius his letters : to the christian reader . svch as of late yeares have rent themselues from the holie service of god , used im the publique congregations and churches of england , being destitute of any sound warrant from the worde of god , have sought from time to time so much the more earnestly ( as the manner of such is ) to shroude themselves vnder the shadowe of humane authoritie . hēce it came to passe that master francis iunius , a mā of great learning , and godlinesse , was solicited by some of them ( as may appeare by these letters ensuing ) in the yeare 99. to be a favourer of their erronious opinions and of their vnchristian disordered and vndutifull proceedings : whose answere , being delivered by himselfe to a religious and worshipful knight , and so comming to my handes , i have presumed to communicate with thee , by the motion of some godly and well disposed , hoping that through the blessing of god , and thy prayers it may proove a good meanes to stay such as are wavering , to confirme such as doe stand , and to recover such as are fallen . for although he doe not enter into an exact discussing of the question with arguments , objections , and answeres : yet he vseth a very grave and godly admonition , which is oftentimes of greater fruite , then a long and learned disputation . and whosoever doth diligently studie the booke of god , shal finde , that the holy prophets & apostles do in manie places insist upō a plaine & simple asleve●ation of the truth rather then vpon multitude of proof & arguments . besides , if we observe the story of the holy martyrs of our own church & others , we may preceive that by the sound profession of their faith , and suffering for the same , they have glorified god and advanced the kingdome of iesus christ aswel as others have done by arguments and reasons . and yet notwithstanding if thou do well obserue these letters of master iunius , thou shalt finde in them not vaine and emptie wordes : but waightie and sounde reasons grounded upon the holie scriptures of god. thus praying thee to take these first fruites of my poore laboures in this kinde in good part , and beseching god to give a blessing hereunto ; i bid thee heartily farewel in the lord. thyne in the lord , r.g. the answer to r.g. his epistle prefixed before mr. iunius letters . such as have separated themselves / from the corrupt service of god / vsed in the publick congregations and parishes of england being persecuted with af●lictions reproches and slanders both at home and in the land whe● now they live exiles : have ben constreyned to publish to the world / the confession of their christian faith / and causes of their departure from the foresayd english synagogues for clearing of the truth of god and witnesses of the same / both which were much and many wayes calumniated . more specially they dedicated that litle book to al christian vniversities neer about to be discussed / approved or reproved by the godly learned in them and sending one in particular to the hands of m.h. iunius , a man of great learning and godlines / dwelling neer vnto them to be by him and the rest of his brethrē of the vniversitie at leyden judged of they received from him a letter lately by one r.g. trāslated and printed in english whether with the authors consent or not is yet vnknowne : but the copy ( as the publisher sayth ) was given out by the author himself / who might had done wel to have given a copy of the answer likewise ▪ or if he did / the translator hath not dealt indifferently to publish one and not an other . how ever it were / al men may see how just and necessary occasion those eriled christians now have / to print their answer also which vpō the receipt of his letter they sent vnto him / but hitherto have spared to give out any one copy either of his or theirs : whether for doubt of their owne cause or reverend regard rather of that mā / let the sequel declare / and let the discrete reader by it judge / whether party hath most advantage . as for the translators censure that they sought to shrowd themselves vnder the shadow of humane authoritie . this brief narratiō of the cariage of the matter / and the plaine apologie which they make vnto mr. iunius of their proceedings / wil shew it ( vnto al godly wyse ) to be but the surmise of a malicious hart . and were it not that the weaknes and badnes of their cause compelleth them thus to doe it might seem strange that any of the church of england would publish such a writing as this in their owne defence / as if it approved their estate / and condēned those foresayd christian exiles : when any whose eyes ar in his head / may see by mr iunius his writing vnto them / as christian brethren / and refusing at al to vndertake the maintenance of those english parishes or conviction of such as separate from them how far it is frō justifying those synagogues estate . yea al wiseharted may and will we doubt not easily discerne how naked and helplesse they be which neither by their friends at home / nor the most learned abroad can otherwise be ●elieved then by such things as hitherto they have printed or howsoever this present generation shall judge of these things / yet the ages to come / ( which wil be lesse partial ) wil easily give sentence . the better to certify thee ▪ good reader of the whole cause / and cariage therof / here is with these lecters set forth also their confession of faith / with the epis●le and preface as it is in latine . and wheras ther is since that time published also a second epistle of mr. iunius ther is now the answer to it set forth likewise : which answer was presently written vpon the receipt of his letter / but not then sent for causes partly before noted and now more fully signified and sent to mr. iunius himself . the things which here are mentioned of corruptions in some other churches and dealings that have passed about thē ar yet spared from being published in print at large til further occasion and provocation be . onely the general and brief h●●ds of the matter in controversie / at now printed ( as they were sent vnto mr. iunius / although we were loth to do it but that their was necessarie occasion given by things which passed in the letters / as al mē may see . moreover it is not to be omitted / how in the printed copy of mr. iunius letter / * some things were corrupted / by alteration omission / and c. otherwise then in the original by himself first sent / they do stand and ar yet to be seen . this it is not likely mr. iunius himself would doe but was ( perhaps ) the printers fault / or rather indeed the translators evil mind for his mother churches advantage / whō falshood seeketh to vphold / when syncerity and truth hath forsaken her . it shal therfore rest vpon him / as the first fruits of his evil labours in this kind , til he clear himself . the apostles and prophets / and martyrs by him mentioned / dealt not so . neither yet did they alwayes insist vpon a plaine and simple asseveration of the truth , but mainteyned it also with proofes and arguments from scripture / and sound reason / against such as oppugned the same . act. 17.2.3 . and 18.28 . and 28.23 . rom , 1.17 . and 3.4.10 . and 4.3.7.17 . and 9.7.9.12.13.17.20.25.27.29.33 . and 10.5.11.15.19.21 . and 11.2.9.26 . 1 cor. 15.3.4.25.27.45.54.55 . gal. 3.6 8.10.11.13.22 . and 4.21.22.27.30 . esa . 40.12 . and 41.21.22.23.24 . and 44.6 . and c. mal. 4.4 . acts & monuments in the historie of mr. brute , thorp , lambert , ridly , philpot , bradford , and many others . and though the apostles and prophets had / yet no mās asseveratiō now / may be compared with theirs / but must be tried by their writings . and so these christian exiles / published to that end their faith vnto the world / against which to this day / neither mr. iunius nor any els of that or the other vniversities / have to our knowledge vsed any one weighty and sound reason grounded vpon the holy scripture of god , as this translator would bear men in hand he doth / and as the prophets did in al their asseverations / taking their ground from the law before given . mat. 22.40 . the lord rebuke satan / and make bright the glorie of his name and gospel / and turne to the profit of every faithful soule / these things now published by his vnworthy and contemned servants / to his owne eternal prayse in christ . amen . to the reader . by the printers default there are ( good reader ) a few faults escaped in the printing some whereof are here noted . which with the rest thou observest thy self / we pray thee amend / thus . pag. 11. lin . 13. then to make . pag. 12. l. 8. all that . pag. 15. l. 20.21.22.32.33.34 . blot out these marcks : * ‡ ( ( * " ‡ . pag. 16. l. 1. also * of old . and lin . 7. iob. 1.6 . pag. 17. l. 3. vnwritten . and blot out / of men . pag. 18. l. 13. act. 3.22 . pag. 24. l. 34. eph. 4.11 . pag. 25. l. 20. ●iev . 2.1 . 1. king. 12. pag. 27. l. 28. gal. 3.28.29 pag. 29. l. 1. no whit . l. 18.1 . tim. 2.2 . l. 49. exod. 18.12 . and 10 . 1● . pag. 39. l. 7. churches of this city / that etc. and then be delivered . l. 27. contend . pag. 40. l. 26. publish . pag. 41. l. 1. their private confessions of faith their apol . l. 7.8 . prevaile . pag. 42. l. 22. let vs. pag. 45. l. 13. ingenuously . pag. 47. in the margent . l. 10. licet vobis . and l. 13. discindere . p. 48. l. 10 / cōsent . p. 50. li. 9. evē to strive earnestly . p. 51. l. 32. taunting . pag. 53. l. 3. yea so . l. 13. many weak ones / before so many deadly . pa. 54. l. 1. amst . is such / as being but one / yet it meeteth in three severall places : wherevpon it is so confus . etc. and li. 32. gal. 4.10.11 . note besides / where mr. iunius in his second letter ( pag. 47. ) pretendeth / as if there had ben some fault in the messenger or vs that he knew not to whom or whither he should have written his first : that in the book it self which was delivered vnto him there was particular mention both of the place and of the partyes from whō it came : as may be seen in the epistle prefired before it / which is of the dedication to the vniversityes . and els how knew he at the moneths end more then before / to whom and whither to send as he did ? which poynt is so very playne / as to himself we thought there needed not then so much as any mention of it . yet thought we here to note it / least some others not observing so much / might thinck the fault wherof he speaketh to ly on vs or the messēger / which ( what soever it were ) is still to rest vpon himself / for ought we know . the confession of fayth of certayne english people / living in exile / in the low countreyes . together vvith the preface to the reader which we wish of all may be read and considered . 2. cor. 4 / 13. we beleev : therefore have we spoken . harmony of confess . in the preface set before it , in the name of the french and belgick churches . the prelates and priests do alvvay cry out , that vve are hereticks , schismaticks , and sectaryes . hovvbeit let thē knovv , that the crime of heresy is not to be imputed to thē , vvhose faith doth vvholy rely vpon most sure grounds of the scripture : that they are not schismaticks , vvho entierly cleave to the true church of god , such as the prophets and apostles do describe vnto vs : nor they to be counted sectaryes , vvho embrace the truth of god vvhich is one and alvvayes like it self . to the reverend and learned men , the students of holy scripture , in the christian vniversities of leyden in holland , of sanctandrewes in scotland ▪ of heidelbergh , geneva , and the other like famous scholes of learning in the low countreyes , scotland , germany , and france . the english exiles in the low countreys , wish grace and peace in iesus christ . this true confession of our faith , in our judgment wholy agreable to the sacred scripture , we do here exhibit vnto all to be discussed : and vnto you ( reverend sirs ) we dedicate it for two causes . first , for that we know you are able in respect of your singular knowledge in the scriptures , and hope you are willing in respect of your syncere piety , to convince our errours by the light of gods word , if in any thing we be out of the way . secondly , that this testimony of christian faith , if you also fynd it agree with the word of truth , may by you be approved , eyther in silence or by writing , as you shall think best . it may be , we shal be thought very bold , that being despised of all , yet doubted not to sollicite you so many and so great learned men . but this we did , partly at the request of others to whom we would not deny it : partly with desier to have the truth through your help better defended and further spread abroad : partly cōstreyned by our exile and other calamityes almost infinite : partly also moved with love of our native coūtrey , and of these wherein now we live , and others else where : wishing that all may walk with a right foot to the truth of the gospell , and praying daily vnto god , that the great work of restoring religion and the church decayed , which he hath happily begun in these latter tymes , by our gracious soveraigne and the other princes of these countreyes and ages ( his servants ) he would fully accomplish , to the glory of his name and eternall salvation in christ of his elect in all places of the earth . as for the causes which moved vs to publish this confession of faith , and to forsake the church of england as now it stādeth , we have truly and as briefly as we could related them in the preface to the reader , hereafter following : and therefore thought here to omit the repetition of them . the lord iesus alway preserve you and your vniversityes to the praise of his name , the ornamēt of good learning , the propagation and maintenance of his pure religion . from amsterdam in the low countreyes . the yeare of the last patience of the saints , 1598. the preface to the christian reader . it may seeme strange vnto thee ( christian reader ) that any off the englysh nation should for the truth of the gospell be forced to forsake their natyve contrye / and lyve in exile / especially in these dayes / when the gospell seemeth to have free passage / and florish in that land . and for this cause have our exile bene hardly thought of by many / and evil spoken of by some who know not ( as it seemeth ) eyther the trewe estate of the church of england or causes of our forsaking and separating from the same / but hearing this sect ( as they call it ) to be every where spoken against have ( with out at all further search ) accounted and divulged vs as heretickes / or schismatickes at the least . yea some ( and such as worst might ) have sought the increase of our afflictions / even here also yf they could , which thinge they have / both secretly and openly attempted . this hath sathan added vnto all our former sorrowes / envying that we should have rest in any part of the b inhabyted world / and therfor ceaseth not to make warre with the remnant of the womans seed / which keepe the commaundemēts of god and have the testimony of iesus christ . but the lord that c brought his former israell out off egypt / and when they walked aboute from nation to natiō / from one kingdome to an other people / suffered no man to do them wronge / but reproved kinges for their sakes : the same lord yet lyveth to maynteyne the right off his afflicted servantes / whome he hath severed / and dayly gathereth out off the world / to d be vnto himselff a chosen generatiō / a royall priesthood a peculiar people and israell off god : he e is our hope and strength and helpe in trobles ready to be found / he will hyde vs vnder his winges / and vnder his feathers we shall be sure vntyll these myseries be over past . and though we could for our partes well have borne this rebuke off christ in silence / and left our cause to him who iudgeth iustly all the children off men : yet for the manyfestation and clearing of the truth off god from reproche off men / and for the bringing off others togither with our selves to the same knouwledge and fellowship off the gospell / we have thought it needfull and our duty to make knowen vnto the world / our vnfeyghned fayth in god / and loyall obedience towardes our prince / and all governours set over vs in the lord / together with the reasons off our leaving the ministery worship and church off england . which are not ( as they pretend ) for some fewe faultes and corruptions remayning / such as we acknowledge man be found in the perfectest church on earth : neyther count we it lawfull for any member to forsake the fellowship off the church for blemyshes and imperfections / which every one according to his calling should studeously seeke to cure / and to exspect and further it vntyll eyther there followe redresse or the disease be growen incureable / and the f candlestick be moved out off the place . but we having through gods mercy learned to discerne betwixt gap the true worship off god / and the antichristian leitourgie / the true ministerie off christ and antichristian priesthood and prelacy / the ordinances off christes testament and popysh cannons : have also learned to leave h the evill and choose the good to forsake babell the land off our captyvitie / and get vs vnto sion the mount of the lordes holynes / and place where his honour dwelleth . but first we desyre thee / good reader to vnderstand / and mynde that we have not in any dislyke of the civill estate and politicke goverment in that common wealth / which we much lyke and love seperated our selves from that churche : neyther have we shaken of our alleageance and dutyfull obedyence to our soveraigne prince elezabeth her honorable consellers and other magistrates set over vs but have alwayes and still do reverence love and obey them every one in the lord / opposing our selves against al enemyes forreigne or domesticall : against all invasions / insurrections / treasons or conspiracies by whome soever intended against her majestie and the state / and are ready to advēture our lyves in their defence / iff need require . neiter have our greatest adversaryes ever bene able to attaint vs of the least disloyalty in this regarde . and though now we be exiled / yet do we dayly pray and will for the preservation peace and prosperity off her majestie and all her domynions and wheras we have bene accused off intrusion into the magistrates office / as goeing about our selves to reforme the abuses in that land / it is a mere malicious calumnie / which our adversaries have forged out of their owne hart . we have alwayes both by word and practise shewed the contrary / neyther ever attempted or purposed any such thinge : but have indevored thus onely to reforme our selves and our lyves according to the rule off gods word / by absteyning from all evyll and keeping the commandements off iesus : leaving the suppressing and casting out off those remnants of idolatry / vnto the magistrates / to whome it belongeth . and further we testifye by these presents vnto all men / and desyre them to take knowledge herof that we have not forsaken any one poynt of the true ancient catholicke and apostolicke fayth professed in our land : but hold the same groundes of christian religion with them still / agreeing lykewise herein / with the dutch / scottysh / germane / french / heldetian / and all other christian reformed churches round about vs / whose confessions publyshed / we call to witnes our agrement with them in matters of greatest moment / being cōferred with these articles of our fayth following . the thinges then onely against which we contend / and which we mislyke in the englysh parish assemblyes / are many reliques of that man off synne ( whome they pretend to have abandoned ) yet reteyned among them / and with a high hand maynteyned / vpholden / and imposed . the partici●ers wherof being almost infinite ) cannot well off vs besett downe / and would be tedious and yrksome to thee ( good reader : ) but the principall heades we wil truely relate / and that so briefely as in so large and confuse a subject we can . first in the planting and constituting of their churche ( at the begining of our queene elizabets reigne ) they receved at once into the body of that churche / as members / the whole land / which generally then stood for the most part professed papistes who had revolted from the profession / which they made in the dayes of king edward off happy memorye / and shed much blood off many christian martyrs in queene maryes dayes . this people yet standinge in this fearfull sinfull state / in idolatry / blyndnes superstitiō and all manner wickednes / without any professed repentance / and without the meanes theroff / namely the preaching off the word goeing before / were by force and aucthority of lawe onely compelled / and together receved into the bosome / and body of the churche / their seed baptised themselves receved and compelled to the lords supper / had this ministery and servyce ( which now then use ) inioyned and set over them / and eversynce they and their seed remayne in this estate / being all but one body comonly called the church of england ▪ here are none exempted or excluded / be they never soo prophane or wretched no athiest / adulterer / thiefe / or murderer / no lyer / periured / witche or coniurer and c. all are one fellowship one body / one churche . now let the law off god be looked into / and there wil be found / that such persones i are not fit stones for the lordes spiritual howse / no meete members for christes glorious body . k none of yeres may be receved into the churche without free professed fayth repētance and submission vnto the gospell of christ and his heavenly ordynances : neyther may any contynew l there longer then they bring forth the fruytes off fayth walking as becometh the gospell of christ . christ m iesus hath called and severed his servants out of and from the world . how then should this confused and mixed people be esteemed the orderly gathered true planted and right constituted church of god. secondly as they have reteyned the whole rout of the popysh multitude without any distinction / for members of their churche : so have they set over them ( as reason was ) the same popysh clergie and prelacy / which they receved from the romysh apostasie and this day is to be found in the popysh churches : to wit● / archbs , primats , bbs , metropolitanes , suffraganes , archdeacōs , deanes , chauncellors , commissaries , and the rest of that rable / which rule and governe these assemblyes according to the popysh cannons / rites / and customes . these have the power and aucthoritie in their hādes to set forth iniunctions / to make and depose ministers ▪ to excomunicate both priest and people which they do very exquisitly if they yeld not vnto them their due homage and obedience . these have both ecclesiasticall and civill aucthoritie / to reigne as princes in the churche and lyve as lordes in the common wealth / to punysh imprison / and persecute evē to death all that dare but once mutter against their vnlaufull proceedinges . of these prelates tyranny cruelty and vnlawfull aurthoritie the better sort both of preachers and people have cryed out / and longe tyme sued vnto the prince and parliamēt to have them removed out of the churche / as being the lymmes of antichrist . but not prevayling they are now content ( for avoyding of the crosse of christ / to submitt them selves and their soules to this antichristian hierarchie / and beare the sinfull yoke and burthen of their traditions / and to receve and carry aboute the dreadfull and detestable marke of the beast vpon them . thirdly / the inferiour ministery of that churche / consisteth of priests / parsons / vicars / curats / hired preachers / or lecturers , with clarkes , sextons , &c. all which have receved their offices callings and aucthoritie from their ●orenamed lordes the prelats , to whome they have sworne their canonicall obedience / and promysed to performe it with all reverence and submyssion . their office is to read over the servyce booke and bps. decrees , thereby to worship god / to marry / to bury / to church women / to visit the sicke / give him the sacrament / and forgyve him all his sinnes : and if their lyvinges or benefices ( as they are called ) amount to a certeyne summe of money in the queenes booke / then must they preach / or get some other to preach for them fower sermons in a yere in their parish / where also must be noted that the most part of these priestes are utterlye vnlearned / and cannot preache at all : wherby it cometh to passe that most of the people are as blynde as they were in the darke dayes of popery . these ministers generally / aswel preachers as other / lyve in feare and servitude vnder their foresaid lords the bbs. for as without their lycence wrytten and sealed they cannot preach / so vpon their displeasure and for not obeying their injunctions / they are many tymes suspēded degraded / and if they will not be ruled / put in prison : so that sundry of them have bene suspended and imprisoned for preaching against the prelats , not subscribing to their devised articles and booke of comon prayer not wearing the square capp and surplus / not reading the service booke / and be tyed to the same / not coming to the bishops courtes / visitations / inquisitions / and c. tyll now of late being wearyed with these trobles / they give place to their tyranny / and are content to conforme themselves / and yelde their canonicall obedience according to their oathe / keeping now silence / yea going back / bearing and bolstering the thinges / which heretofore by word and wryting they stoode against so longe as there was any hope that the queene and counsell would have harkened vnto them / and put these adversary prelats out of the churche . fourthly / for the administration / which is by lawe imposed vpon all both clergie and laitie , ( for so they distinguish them ) they have gathered their service booke verbatim out of the masse boo●● / turning out of latine into englysh the suffragies , prayers , letany , collects , &c. ( leaving on● some of the grosse pointes therin ) keeping still the old fashyon of psalmes chapters pistles / gospells / versicles respondes / also te deum , be●edictus , magnificat , nunc dimittis , our father , lord have mercy vpon vs , the lord be with you , o lord open t●ow my lyps , glory to god on high , lyft vp your harts , o come let vs rejoyce , glory be to the father , quicunque vult , &c. these doe they read dayly morning and evening all the yere longe in their priestly vestures / surplus / cope / and c. some they saye / and some they singe having in their cathedrall churches / the organs , queristers , singing men and boyes as in tymes past in popery . many popysh errors yet remayne in that booke which their owne preachers have noted / and found fault with ▪ there are they prescribed what prayers to read over the dead / over the corne and grasse / some tyme in the yere . by it are they inioyned to keepe their holy dayes to their lady ( as they call her ) to all saincts and angells / to all christes apostells / ( except paul and barnabas ) whose eves they are commaunded to fast / as also their lent and ember dayes / besydes frydayes / and satardayes through out the whole yere . by this booke are the ministers instructed how to marry with the signe of the ringe / and c. to baptise in the hallowed font with signe of the crosse / with godfathers and godmothers / asking the childe whether it will forsake the devyll and all his workes / and c. to minister also their other sacrament or communion to the people kneeling / as when in popery they receved their maker / the wordes of christes institution altered and others in stead of them takē out of the popes portuis / with innumerable such lyke enormyties and fopperies wherewith it swarmeth . and this is all the worship and service which many parishes have contynually / except peradventure some wrytten homelyes which the vnlearned priestes read vnto them . this service must first be read / and hath the preeminence even on the lordes dayes before any preaching yra before the bible it self : he that can read this booke distinctly is fit ynough with them to be priest / yea many that have ben artificers / as shoemakers / taylers / weavers / porters / and c. and with out any giffes or knowledge at all / save only to read englysh / have bene and are admytted and to this day maynteyned by the prelats in the ministery . to these churches ministers and servyce must all the people there come every daye / yea though they have in the next parish a preacher / and in their owne a dumbe vnlearned priest / yet are they all tyed to their owne church / and minister / and must at the least twise a yere receve the sacrament at his handes . if they refuse this / or do not ordinaryly come to their parish churche then are they summoned / excommunicated / and imprisoned / tyll they become obedient . in this bōdage are our countrymen there held vnder their priests and prelates : and such as by the word of god witnes against and condemne these abhominations / they hate punysh put to death / and persecute out of the land . who now in whome any sparke of true light is cannot playnly perceive this their ministery worship and churche to be false and adulterate ? doth christes eternall testament or deyne and approve of suche popish lordes and prelats to reigne over his churche ? are these those christian bishops / that is o pastors / teachers and elders / which he hath set in his churche and over his owne people vnto the worldes end ? or can chose preachers which are thus created and deposed by / thus sworne and obediēt vnto / their spirituall lordes / be deemed true teachers of the gospell of christ lawfully called and ordeyned to that ministerye ? is that their englysh masse the trewe and p spirituall worship of god according to his owne wil ? we are taught in the scriptures q that there can be no agrement made betwixt christ and antichrist / betwixt the lawes of god and mens traditions : that the servants of iesus may not submytt unto or receve the marke of that beast / neyther drinke of the cup of the whore of babylons fornycations / or buy any of her wares : but must s contend for the mayntenāce of that faith / which was once gyven vnto the sainctes / keeping their ▪ soules and bodyes pure from antichristian pollutions / touching t no vncle anethinge u nor having any fellowship with the vnfruteful workes of darknes / w least by partaking with their sunnes they receve also of their plagues / and dryncke of the wyne of the wrath of god / and be tormented in fyre and brimstone / before the holy angells and before the lambe for evermore . if christ be god let vs follow him : but if the pope be god / what shall wee say ? why have we left him / his church and ministery / his worship and jurisdiction / or what halting and mocking with the lord is this / to put away the popes person and retayne his prelacy and ministery his lawes / traditiōs and cannons / his worship and service : or at the least to frame vnto our selves a worship ministery and church after the patterne and mould of the apostacye of roome / which what other thing is it / them to make an image of that first wild beast / and force men to worship it ? x thus seest thow briefely ( good christian reader ) the thinges which we mislike in the churche of england / and for which we have separated our selves / as god commandeth . y to all these / if we were amongst them / s — uld we be forced to submytt our bodyes and soules / or els suffer violence at the handes of the prelats / and end our lyves by violent death or most miserable imprisonment / as many of our bretheren before vs have donne . for so great is the malice and power of those romysh priests / that they persecute vnto death such as speake against them : and such poore christians as they cast into their noysome prysons / can seldome or never get out ( except with shipwracke of cōscience ) vntyll they be caryed forth vpon the bere . neyther is there any care taken for their reliefe in this case : but being thus cast into pryson / there they are deteyned without any alloweance of meate or money for their mayntenance / be their want and poverty never so great . if they have any thing of their owne / there they are driven to spend it vp : if they have nothing / there they are left by the prelats to feede on the ayre . and that they maye more readily be sterved / or weakened in the truth / they are comonly shut vp in close prison / their frends and acquayntance being not suffered to come at them : nay even their wyves and children being kept and debarred from them by the tyranny of these bloddye prelats and their instruments : whose hard hartes and vnnaturall cruelty / if thou didest vnderstand ( gentle reader ) as many of vs have felt / and to this daye yet feele it would make thy hart to bleede / considering their vnmercyfull and barbarous dealing . and how many soules have perished in their prisons through miserable vsage / how many have ben put to death and how many banyshed / though we could to their eternall infamy relate to all the world / yet wil we not blaze abroad their acts ( for we take no delight in laying open their shame ) but mourne for them in secret / commytting our cause to god that judgeth justly / knowing that he z that maketh inquisition for blood remembreth it / and will not forget the complaint of the poore . and thou ( christian reader ) voutch safe to remember vnto god in thy prayers such as yet remayne in bandes and pryson amongest them for the testymony of iesus / enduring a hard fight of afflictions / and having the sentence of death in themselves are lyke ( if the lord send not vnexspected delyverance ) there to end their dayes . concerning our selves who through the mercy of god have found a place of rest in this land / for which benefyt we are alwayes and every where humbly thanckfull : we desyre ( christian reader ) thy charitable and christian opinion of / and holy prayers vnto god for vs / whose kingdome we seeke / whose ordinances we desyre to establysh and obey : protesting with good consciences / that it is the truth of his gospell only for which we stryve against those cursed reliques of antichristian apostasie : vnto which we dare in no wise submytt our selves / no not for a moment . for if it be not lawfull for christians at this daye to receyue the ceremonye● of moses lawe together with the gospell as the passeover / circumcision / the priesthood / sacrifices / and c. which yet were once commaunded by god himself : how can we thincke it tollerable to observe the odious ceremonyes of antichrist or submytt our selves to his lawes / priesthood / hierarchie and traditions / which the lord never allowed / and which never entred in to his hart : yea which he hath so severely for bydden / with fearefull judgements threatned vnto all hat shall so do . but because we have bene very grievously slādred in our owne nation / and the bruit thereoff hath followed vs vnto this land / wherby we have bene hardly deemed of by many without cause / we have bene forced at length to publysh this briefe but true confession of our fayth / for the cleering of our selves from sclander / and satisfying of many who desyred to knowe the thinges we hold . wherein if in any thinge we erre ( as who is so perfit that he erreth not ) we reade ( good reader ) thy christian brotherly censure and information / promysing alwayes ( through the grace of god ) to yeild vnto the truth when it shall be further shewed vs / and leave our errors when by the light of his word they shal be reproved . in lyke manner it shall be thy part and duty to acknowledge and submytt vnto the truth / by whome soever it is professed / looking allwayes rather to the preciousnes of the treasure it self then to the basenes of the vessells which conteyne it / or the infirmities of those that witnes the same / in whose mortall bodyes thow shalt see nothing but the markes and dyeing of our lord ihesus christ . but hold not thy fayth in respect of mens persons / neyther be thow moved at the evyl reports wich have bene raised of vs : here hast thow the trewe summe of our christian fayth / try all thinges by the true light of gods word : and if thou shalt reape and profit by these our labours / gyve god the glory / and remember vs vnto him in thy prayers . farewell in christ iesus . 1596. the confession of faith of certaine english people , in the low covntreyes , exiled . we● beleeue with the heart , & confes with the mouth : that there is but * one god , one christ , one spirit , one church , one truth , one faith , one true religion ‡ one rule of godlines and obedience for all christians , in all places , at all tymes , to be observed . 2 god is a * spirit , whose ‡ beeing is of himself , and giveth beeing , moving , and preservation to all other thing● , beeing himself ☽ eternal , most holy , every way infinit● , in greatnes , wisdome , power , goodnes , iustice , truth etc. in this godhead there be * three distinct persons coeternall , coequall , and coessentiall , beeing every one of them one and the same god , and therefore not divided but distinguished one from another by theyr severall and peculiar propertie : the * father of whom are the other persons , but he of none ; the sonne ‡ begotten of the father from everlasting , the holy ☽ ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne before all beginnings . 3 god ‡ hath decreed in himself from everlasting touching all things , and the very least circumstances of every thing , effectually to work and dispose them according to the counsell of his owne will , to the glory of his name . and touching his cheefest creatures ▪ god hath in christ ‡ before the foundation of the world according to the good pleasure of his will , * foreordeyned some ●en and angels , to eternall lyfe to be ‡ accomplished through iesus christ , to the ● prayse of the glorie of his grace . 〈◊〉 hath also of al● according to his iust purpose foreappointed other both ●●xes● and ui●● , to eternall condemnation , to be accomplished through their owne corruptiō and desert to the praise of his iustice * in the beginning god made al things of nothing veri good : and ‡ created 〈◊〉 after his owne image and liknes in righteousnes ād holines of truth but * streight ways after by the subtiltrie of the serpēt which sathan vsed as his instrument ( himself with his angels having sinned before and not kept their first esstate , but left their owne habitation ) : first * eva , then adam being seduced , did wittingly and willingly fall into disobedience and trāsgressiō of the co●mnaund●●●nt of god. for the which , death ‡ came vpon all and reigneth over all ▪ pea euen ‡ over infants also which have not sinned after the like maner of the trangression of adam , that is , actually : hence also it is , that † all since the fall of adam , are begotten in his owne liknes * after his image , being conceyved and formed in iniquitie , and so by nature children of wrath and servants of sinne , and subiect to death , and al other calamities due vnto sinne in this world and for ever . 5 all mankind being thus fallen and become altogether dead in sinne , and subiect to the eternall wrath of god , both by originall and actuall corruption : yet * the elect all and onely , are redeemed , quickned , raysed vp and saved againe not of themselves , neyther by works ( lest anie man should boast him self but wholly and only by god of his free grace and mercy through faith in christ iesus ‡ who of god is made vnto vs wisdome , and rights a●s●es , and sanctification , and redemption , that according as it is written hee that resorceth may reio●ce in the lord. 6 this therfort is * lyfe eternall to know the only true god , and whom hee hath sent into the world iesus christ . and on the contrarie the ‡ lord will render vengeance in ●laming fire vnto than that know not god , and which over not the gospell of our lord iesus christ . 7 how the rule of this ●nowledge faith and obediēc● , concerning the worship ād service of god and all other christiā dinityes , is not mens opinions devises , lawes constitutions or traditions w●ritten whatsoeuer , of men , but onely the written word of god , conteyned in the canonicall bookes of the old and new testament ▪ 8 in this word iesus christ hath plainely reveled whatsoever his father thought needfull for vs to know , beleeue and acknowledge as touching his person and office , in whom all the promises of god are yea , and in whom they are amen to the prayse of god through vs. 9 touching his person , the lord iesus , of whom , moses and the prophets wrote , and whom the apostl●s , preached , is the ‡ everlasting ▪ sonne of god the father by eternall generation , the brightnes of his glorie , and the engrauē forthe of his person , coeffitiall co●qual , and coeternall , god with him and with the holy ghost : ioy whō hee made the worlds , vp whō hee vpholdeth and governeth all the works hee hath made : who also , † whē the fulnes of tyme was come , was made man of a woman , of the tribe * of iudah , of * the seed of dauid and abraham , to wyt , of mary that blessed virgin , by the holy ghost comming vpon hir , and the power of the most high ouershadowing hir : and was ▪ also † in al things lyke vnto vs , sinne only excepted . 10 touching his office , iesus christ only i● made the medi●tor of the new testamēt , even of the everlasting couenant of grace betweē god & mā to be per●●c●ly and fully the prophet , priest and king of the church of god for evermore . 11 vnto this office hee was from everlasting , * by the iust and ●●fficient authoritie of the father , and in respect of his manhood from the wa●●h ●all●d and seperated ād † anoynted also most fully and abōdātly with all necessary gifts , as it is written : god hath not measured out the spirit vnto him . 12 this office to be mediator , that is , prophet , priest , and king of the church of god , is so proper to christ , as neyther in the whole , nor in any part thereof , it can be transferred from him to any other . 13 touching his † prophecie , christ hath perfectly revealed * out of the bozome of his father , the whole word and will of god , that is needfull for his servants , eyther joyntly or severally to know , beleeve or obey : hee also ‡ hath spoken and doth speake to his church in his owne * ordinance , by his owne ministers and instruments onely , and not by any false † ministery at any tyme. 14 towching his priesthood , christ * beeing consecrated , hath appeared once to put away sinne , by the offring and sacrificing of himself : and to this end hath fully performed and suffred all those things , by which god through the blood of that his crosse , in an acceptable sacrifice , might be reconciled to his elect : and having ′ broken downe the partition wall , and therewith finished and removed all those rites , shadowes , and ceremonies , is now● entred within the vayle into the holy of holiest , that is , to the very heaven , and presence of god , where hee for ever lyveth and sitteth at the right hand of maiestie● apperring before the face of his father , to make intercession for such as come vnto the throne of grace by that new and living way : and not that onely ▪ but maketh his people a ‡ spirituall howse , and holy priesthood , to offer vp spirituall sacrifices , acceptable to god through him . neyther doth the father acce●● , or christ offer vnto the father any other worship , or worshippers * 15 towching his kingdome , christ * being risen frō the dead , ascended into heaven , set at the right hand of go● the father ▪ having all power in heaven and earth given vnto him ▪ he doth spiritually governe his church : exercising his power ‡ over all angels and men , good and bad , to the preservation and salvation of the elect , to the overruling and destruction of the reprobate : * communicating and applying the benefits , vertue and fruite of his prophecy and priesthood vnto his elect , namely to the remission , subduing , and taking away of their sinnes , to their iustification , adoption of sonnes , regeneration , sanctification , preservation and strengthning in all their conflicts against sathan , the world , the flesh , and the temptation of them : continually dwelling in , governing and keeping their harts in his true faith and fear by his holy spirit , which having once given it , hee never taketh away from them , but by it still begetteth and nourisheth in them repentance , faith , love , obedience , comfort , peace , ioy , hope , and all christian vertues , vnto immortalitie , notwithstanding that it be somtymes through sinne and tentation , interrupted , smothered , and as it were overwhelmed for the tyme. agayne on the contrary , † ruling in the world over his enemies . sathan , and all the vessels of wrath , limiting , vsing , restrayning them by his mighty power , as seemeth good in his divine wisdome and iustice , to the execution of his determinate counsel , to wit , to their seduction , hardning and condemnation , delivering them vp to a reprobate mynde , to be kept through their owne desert in darcknes , sinne , and sensualitie , vnto iudgement . 16 this kingdome shall be then fully perfected when he shall the second tyme come in glory with his mightie angels to iudge both quick and dead , to abolish all rule , authoritie and power to put al his enimies vnder his feet , to separate and free all his chosē from them for ever , to punish the wicked with everlasting perdition from his presence , to gather , ioyne , and carry the godly with hmiself into endlesse glory , and then to deliuer vp the kingdome to god / euen the father , that so the glorie of the father may bee full and perfect in the sonne , the glorie of the sonne in all his members , and god bee all in all . 17 in the meane tyme , bisides his absolute rule in the world , christ hath here in earth a * spirituall kingdome and aeconomicall regiment in his church , which hee hath purchased and redemed to himself , as a peculiar inheritāce ▪ and albeyt that manie hypoc●t●es do for the tyme lurke amongst them ‡ whiles the church is militant here on earth , yet christ nothwithstanding ●oy the power of his word gathereth them which be his into the body of his church , calleth them from out of the world , bringeth them to hid true faith / separating them * from amongst vnbeleevers , frō idolatrie , false ▪ worship , superstitiō , vanitie , dissolute life , and al works of darknes , &c. making thē a royall priesthod . an holy natiō a people set at libertie to shew foorth the virtues of him that hath called them out of darknes into his mervelous light , gathering and vniting thē together as * members of one bodi in his faith loue and holy order , vnto all generall and mutuall dutyes , ‡ through his spirit instructing ād governing them by such officers and lawes as hee hath prescribed in his word by which officers and lawes hee governeth his church , † and by none other . 18 to this church hee hath made the * promise● , and giuen the seales of his covenant , presence , loue , blessing and protectiō : here are the ‡ holy oracles as in the a●ke , suerly kept and puerly taught . heere are all the † fountaynes and springs of his grace continually replenished and slowing forth , heere is christ lifted vp to al nations , hither hee inuiteth all men to his supper , his mariage feast , hither ought ‡ all men of all estates ād degrees that acknowledge him theyr prophet , priest and king to re●●yre , to bee enrolled ●mongst his houshold seruants , to bee vnder his heauenly conduct and goverment , to leade theyr liues in his w●lled sheepfold ād watered orchard , to haue communion heer with the saincts , that they may bee made meet to bee partakers of their inheritāce in the kingdome of god. 19. and as * all his servāts and subiects are called hither , to presse their bodies and soules , and to bring the gyfts god hath given them so beeing come they are heer by himself bestowed in theyr severall order , peculiar place , but vse , beeing fitly compact and knit togeather by every ioynt of help , according to the effectuall worke in the measure of every part , vnto the edification of it self in love : whervnto when hee ‡ ascended vp on high he gave gifts vnto men , and distributed them vnto several publik fūctions in his church , having instituted and ratified to continue vnto the worlds end , onely this publick ordinarie ministery of pastors , teachers , elders , deacons , helpers , to the instruction , government , and service of his church . 20 this ministerie is craftely ‡ described , distinguished , limited , concerning these office ▪ their calling to their 〈…〉 administration of their office , and the●● maintenance in their off●●e , by most perfect and ●s●●ne lawes in gods word : which * lawes it is not lawfull for these ministers , or for the whole church wittingly to neglect , trangresse , or violate in anie part nor yet to receive anie other lawes brought into the church by any person whatsoever . 21. none ‡ may vsurp or execute a ministerie but such as are ri●tly called by the church whereof they stand ministers , vnto such offices , and in such maner , as god hath prescribed in his word . and being so called , they ought * to give all diligence to fulfill their ministerie , to be found faithfull and vnblameable in all things . 22. this ministerie is alike given to every christian congregation , with like and equall power and commission to have and enioy the same , a●● god offerith 〈◊〉 men and meanes , the same rules given to all for the election and execution thereof in all places . 23. as every christian congregation ‡ hath power and cōmandement to elect and ordeine their owne ministerie according to the rules in gods word prescribed , and whilest they shall faithfully execute these office , to have them † in super abundant loue for their worke sake , to provide for them , to honour them and reverence them , according to the dignitie of the office they execute : so have they also * power and commandement when anie such default , eyther in their lyfe , doctrine , or administration breaketh out , as by the rule of the word debarreth them from , or depriveth them of their ministerie , by due order to depose them frō the ministerie they exercised : yea if the case so require , and they remayne obstinate and impenitent , orderly to cut them of by excommunication . 24. christ * hath given this power to receive in or to cut of anie member , to the whole body together of every christian congregation , and not to anie one member apart , or to more members sequested from the whole , or to anie other congregation to do it for them : yet so , as ech congregation ought to vse the ‡ best help they can heervnto , and the most meet member they have to pronounce the same in their publick assembly . 25 every member of ech christian congregation , how excellēt , great , or learned soever , ought to be subiect to this censure and judgment of christ : yet ought not the church without great care and due advise to proceed against such publick persons . 26 as christ hath for the keeping of this church in holy and orderly communion , placed some speciall men over the church , who by their office are to governe , oversee , visite , watch &c. so ‡ lykwise for the better keeping thereof in all places , by all the mēbers , hee hath given authority and layd dutie vpon them all to watch one over another . 27 finally , whilest the ministers and people thus remayne together in this holy order and christian communion , ech one endevoring to do the will of god in their calling , and thus to wallie to the glory of god , in the obedience of faith , christ hath promised to be present with them , to blesse and defend them against all fraud and force of theyr enemyes , so as the gates of hell shall not prevaile against them . 28 but when and where this holy order and diligent watch was intermitted , neglected , violated : antichrist that m●n of sinne did together with other points of christian faith corrupt and alter also the holy ordinances , offices , and administrations of the church : and in stead thereof brought in and erected a strange new forged ministery , leitourgy and government . yea and the nations kingdomes and inhabitants of the earth were made drunken with this cup of fornications and abominatiōs and all people enforced to receiue the beasts marke and worship his image and so brought into confusion and babilonish bon●age . 29 the present hierarchy retayned and vsed in englād of arch●b . primates , lordbishops , metropolitanes , suffraganes , deanes , prebendaries , canons , pe●icanons arch-deacons , chancellors , commissaries , priests , deacons or halfpriests , parsons , biccars , curats , hireling roving preachers , church-wardens , parish-clerkes : also their doctors , proctors , and other officers of there spiritual courts ( as they call them ) together with the whole rable of the prelates and their servitou●s from and vnder them ●et over these cathedrall and parishionall assemblies in this confusion are a strange and antichristian ministerie and offices : and are not that ministerie above named , instituted in christs testament , n●● placed in or over his church . 30 these their popish offices , entrance , administration and maintenance , with their names , titles , privileges , and prerogatives : also the power and rule they usurp over and in these ecclesiasticall assemblies over the wholl ministerie , wholl ministration and affaires therof , yea one ouer another , creating priests , citing , suspending , silencing , deposing , absoluing , excommunicating , etc. their confounding of ecclisiasticall and civile iurisdiction , causes and proceedings in their persons , courts , commissions , visitations , the priests of lesse rule , taking their ministery from and exercising it vnder them by their prescription ād limitation , swearing canonical obedience vnto them , administring by their devised imposed , stinted popish leitourgie , &c. finally , the dispensations which they vse for plurality of benefices , licences of non residency , licence to mary and eat flesh ( both which with them are on certaine dayes ād tymes forbidden &c. these ( we say ) are sufficient proofs of the former assertion , the perticulars therin being duly examined by and compared to the rules of christs testamēt . not to speake here , of baptisme administred by midwives , of the crosse vsed in baptisme , of questions propounded to the infants , of the priests surplice , prayer over the dead , at buriall , kneeling at the lords supper , and other the like popish corruptions , almost infinite , reteyned and allowed among them . 31 these ecclesiasticall assemblies , remayning thus in , confusion and bondage vnder this antichristian ministerie cour●● , canons , worship , ordināces &c. without freedom and power to redresse anie enormitie among them , cannot be said in this confusion and subiectiō , truly to haue christ their prophet priest and king , neither can be in this estate , ( whilest wee iudge them by the rules of gods woord ) esteemed the true , visible orderly gathered , or constituted churches of christ wherof the faithfull may become or stand members , or haue anie spirituall communion with them in their publick worship and administration . 32 therfore are * all that will be saved bound by gods commādement with speed to come forth of this antichristian estate , leaving the suppressiō of it ‡ vnto the magistrate to whom it be lōgeth . and all such also as have † receyved or exercised anie of these false offices or anie pretended function or ministery in or to this fals● ād antichristiā constitutiō , are willingly in gods feare to give over and leave those vnlawfull offices , and no longer to minister in this maner to these assemblies in this estate . neyther may any of what sort or condition soever , give any part of theirs goods , lands , money , or monry worth to the maintenance of this false ministe●ie and worship vpon any commandement or vnder anie colour whatsoever . 33 and being come forth of this antichristian estate vnto the freedom and true profession of christ , besides the instructing and well guyding of their owne families , they are willingly to ioyne ‡ together in christian communion and orderly covenant , and by free confession of the faith and obediēce of christ to vnite themselves into † peculiar and visible congregations : wherin , as members of one body wherof christ is the only head , they are to worship and serve god according to his word , remembring to * keep holy the lords day . 34. then also * such to whom god hath given gifts to interpret the scriptures , tryed in the exercise of prophecy attending to studie and learning , may and ought ( by the appointment of the congregation ) to prophecy , according to the proportion of faith , and so to teach publickly the word of god , for the edification , exhort●tion and comfort of the church : vntill such tyme as the people do meet for , and god manifest men with able guifts and 〈◊〉 to such office or offices as christ hath appointed to the publick ministerie of his church ; but ‡ no sacraments to be administred vntill the pastors or teachers be chosen and ordeined into theyr office . 35 and then wheresoever ther shall be a people fit , and men furnished with meet and necessary guifts , they are not onely still to continue the exercise of prophecy aforsaid , but also vpon due tryall to * proceed vnto choyce and ordination of officers for the ministery ād service of the church , according to the rule of gods word : and so hold on ‡ stil to walke forward in the ways of christ for theyr mutuall edification and confort , as it shall please god to give knowledge and gra●e therevnto . and particularly , that such as be of the † seed , or vnder the governmēt of anie of the church , be even in their infancie receyved to baptisme , and made partakers of the signe of gods covenant made with the faithful and their seed throughout all generations . and that all ″ of the church that are of yeares , and able to examine themselves , doo communicate also in the lords supper ▪ both men and women , and in * both kindes , bread and wine . in which ‡ elements , as also in the water of baptisme , even after they are consecrate , there is neyther transubstantiation into , nor cōsubstantiatiō with the bodye and blood of iesus christ : whom the heavens must conteyne , vntill the tyme that al things be restored . but they are † in the ordinance of god signes and seales of gods everlasting covenant with vs representing and offring * to all the receyvers , but exhibiting only to the true beleevers the lord iesus christ and all his benefits vnto righteousnes , sanctification , and eternall lyfe , through faith in his name to the glorie and prayse of god. 36 thus being righly gathered , established , and still proceeding in christian communion and obedience of the gospell of christ , none is to separate for falts and corruptions , which may , and so long as the church consisteth of mortall men , will fall out and arise among them , even in true constituted churches , but by due order to seeke redresse therof . 37. such as yet see not the truth , may heare the publik doctine and prayers of the church , and with al meeknes are to bee sought by all meanes : yet none who are growne in yeares may bee received into their communion as members , ‡ but such as doe make confession of their faith , publickly desiring to be received as members , and promissing to walke in the obedience of christ . neyther any infants , † but such as are the seed of the faithfull by one of the parents , or vnder their education and government . and further * not anie from one cōgregation to be received members in another , without bringing certificate of their former estate and present purpose . 38 and although the particular congregations be thus distinct , and severall bodies , every one as a compact and knit citie in it self , yet are they all to walke by one and the same rule , and by all meanes conveniēt to have the cōsell and help one of another in all needfull affaires of the church , as members of one body in the common faith , vnder christ their onely head . 39 it is the office and dutie of princes and magistrates ( who by the * ordinance of god are supreme governors vnder him over all persons and causes within their realmes and dominions ) to ‡ suppresse and root out by their authority all false ministeries , voluntarie religions and counterfeit worship of god : to abolish and destroy the idoll temples : images , altars : vestments , and all other monuments of idolatry and superstition : and to take and convert to theyr owne ●●vile vses not only the benefit of all such idolatrous buildings and monuments : but also the revenues / demeanes / lordships / possessions / glea●es and maintenance of any false ministeryes and vnlawfull ecclesiasticall functions whatsoever within their dominions . and on the other hand † to establish and mainteine by their lawes every par● of gods word / his christian religion / pure worship / and true ministery described in his word : to cherish and protect all such as are carefull ●o worship god according to his word / and to lead a godly lyfe in all peace and loyaltie : yea to enforce all their subiects whoever ecclesiasticall or civile / to do their dutyes to god and men●protecting and mainteining the good punishing and restraining the evill according as god hath commaunded / whose lieutenants they are here on earth . 40 and thus the protection and cōmandement of the princes and magistrates maketh it much more * peaceable / though no wit at all ‡ more lawfull / to walke in the wayes and ordinances of iesus christ which he hath commanded his church to keep without spot and vnrebukeable vntill his appearing in the end of the world . and in this behalfe therefore the brethren thus mynded ād proceeding as is before said / are both continually to † supplicate to god / and as they may to their princes and governors that thus and vnder them they may leade a quiet and peaceable lyfe in all godlines and honestie . 41 and if god encline the magistrates hearts ●o the allowance and protecction of the church therin , it ought to be accompted a singular and happy blessing of god who granteth such nourcing fathers and nourcing mothers to his church . and it behoveth all to be carefull to walke worthie so great a mercy of god in all thankfulnes and obedience . 42 but if god withold the magistrates allowance and furtherāce herein , yet * must wee notwithstanding proceed together in christiā covenant and communion thus to walke in the obedience of christ / ād confessiō of his faith and gospell even through the middest of all tryalls and afflictions / not accompting our goods / lands / wive● / children / fathers / mothers / brethren / sisters / no nor our lyves dear vnto vs so as we may finish our course with ioy / remembring always that we ought to obey god rather then man : and grounding vpon the ‡ commandement / commission and promise of our saviour christ / who as hee hath all power in heaven and in earth / so hath also promised ( if we keep his commandements which he hath given without limitation of tyme / place / magistrates allowance or disallowance ) to be with vs vnto the end of the world : and when we have finished our course and kept the faith / to give vs the crowne of righteousnes which is layd vp for all that love his appearing . 43 vnto all men is to be given whatsoever is due vnto them . tributes / customes / and all other such lawfull and accustomed dutyes / ought willingly and orderly to be payed and performed : our lands / goods / and bodyes / to be submitted in the lord to the magistrates pleasure . and the magistrates themselves every way to be acknowledged / reverenced and obeyed according to godlines / not because of wrath only but also for conscience sake : and finally / all men so to be esteemed and regarded / as is due and meet for their place / age / estate and condition . 44 and thus , wee labour to give vnto god that which is gods , and vnto cesar that which is cesars , and vnto all men , that which be longeth vnto them : endevoring our selves to have alwayes a cleare conscience towards god and towards men : and having hope in god that the resurrection of the dead shal be of the iust vnto life , and of the vniust vnto condemnation , everlasting . now if any take this to be heresie : then do wee with the apostle freely confesse that after the way which they call heresie , wee worship god the father of our lord iesus christ : beleeving all things that are written in the law , and in the prophets and apostles : and what soever is according to this rule of truth published by this state or holdē by anie reformed churches in their confessions abrode in the world . we do also reiect and detest all straunge and hereticall opinions and doctrines of all hereticks both old and new whatsoever . 45 finally , wheras wee are much flandered and traduced as if we denyed or misliked that forme of prayer commonly called the lords prayer : wee thought it needfull here also concerning it to make known that we beleeve ād acknowledg it to be a most absolute and most excellent forme of prayer , such as no men nor angels can set downe the like . and that it was taught and appointed by our lord iesus christ not that we should be tyed to the vse of those very words , but that we should according to that rule make all our requests and thanksgyuing vnto god , forasmuch as it is a perfect forme and paterne conteining in it plaine and sufficient directions of prayer , for all occasions and necessities , that have ben , are , or shal be , to the church of god , or any member therof , to the end of the world . now vnto him that is able to keep vs that wee fall not , and to present vs faltlesse before the presence of his glorie with ioy , that is , to god only wise our saviour , be glory and maiestie , and dominion , & power , both now & for ever , amen . maister ivnivs his first letter , concerning the confession of faith aforesaid . to his beloved in christ the brethren of the english church , now abiding at amsterdam . grace mercie and peace from god the father and our saviour iesus christ . i have received of late ( belooved brethren in christ ) a little booke by one of your companie ; which is intituled , the confession of faith of some english men banished in belgia , and have knowne your desire partly by the speach of the same messenger , partly by the preface of the writing . but as concerning my selfe , beloved brethren , whom “ for nearnes sake peradventure yee have thought meete to be called vpon a part , i verily see not how much i can doe in this cause , or how i can fit your purpose . for i knowe that now long since euery man doth abound in his owne sense ; and that those that are other wise minded are “ with a brotherly mynd so fare to be borne with , holding the heade and fundation , til the lord reveale things further vnto them . i know it is my part not to play the busie body , but that i should serve the truth and charitie in my standing and measure which the lord hath bestowed vpon me , in christian modestie and simplicitie , as farre as my skil and abilitie wil stretch vnto . certainely when i considered “ this cause more diligently , i thought nothing more commodious or more safe for the publick and for you and my selfe , in all this matter , thē that we should embrace a holy silēce , if there be any thing , wherein we be offended , and that we commit our cause to the lord , the author of our faith , and righter of our cause . but because after a sort , you will not suffer mee to be silent , and to cōdole in secret for the woundes of the church , which is rent more then inough , by actions , especially being thrust forth in publik in this our age ; i wil declare faith fully , and with a good cōscience before god what i thinke : beseeching him who is author of truth and peace that he would leade both you and me alike into all truth according to his promise , & also dispose each of our mindes and affections to interpret brotherly one anothers requestes , answeres , admonitions , and finally all our duties , although ( as it commeth to passe , and is incident to man ) disagreeing from our sense and taste . i obserue therefore that there are three heads or chief poynts in your little booke , wherein you desire our counsell and iudgement . the first head is of doctrine , which you professe in your little booke . the secōd is of fact , whereof yee accuse the english churches . lastly the third is , of the conclusion , which you inferre by comparing that your doctrine with that practise of england ; namely that yee cannot with good conscience entertaine a communiō with those churches , but that yee doe abhorre them with all your heartes . therefore i will speak briefely of these 3. things , “ what i think , entreating you brotherly to take my answere in good part . i marvell that the point of doctrine , or little booke of your confession , beloved brethrē , is sent ouer to me . i marvell that it was sent ouer to all the students of holy scriptures in all christian vniuersities ; for if there be a certaine consent of doctrine as you pretend it , truely i do not see what need there was , that you should set forth a newe confession in this consent of holy and auncient doctrine . but if there be a dissention peradventure in the doctrine , or rather a differēce , that in deed ought not to bee dissembled , if so be that yee thought it necessarie , that your doctrine should be declared . besides , in that you send to mee ; yea that you send to publicke viewe , “ your confession , i marvell , brethren , yea i greatly maruell , what your meaning should bee , both in respect of the ende and the fact . for if ye haue set it foorth to that end , that yee might purge your selues , i pray you brethren , wherefore doe yee desire , to purge your selues with so many soules ; who have not knowē you as yet to bee accused ; who can neuer take knowledge of the right or wrong of your accusation ; and who are not called vnto it by any lawfull means ? and ( that which is worse ) wherfore would yee haue this done before so many “ deadly enemies to god and the church , who thirst after nothing so much as the blood of the church of god , and doe reioyce that we vndiscreetly make a publishing of these wounds : that they by these very wounds might spoyle the church , that pretious bodie of christ , of the blood of veritie , and juyce of charitie ? finally , why doe yee this before so many weake ones , who not yet knowing , that yee are borne ( as i may so say ) are offēded , rather with a carcasselike stink of schismes in the church , before they knowe certainely the bodie whereunto they may cleaue ? alas brethren , is your purgation so much worth vnto you that therfore the publicke good of the church should bee brought into so greate danger ? a christian an humble , and godly minde ought to bee otherwise affected , and setting aside the respect of their owne priuate good , constantly thus to determine , let the earth rather first swallowe me vp ( as the poet saith ) and let mee rather bee accursed for my brethren , then that by me , and for my credit sake even one of these little ones should be offended and kept from comming to christ , and abiding in christ my sauiour . verily let what will of my estimation goe to wracke , who am a christian , let me be trampled vnder all mēs feete , so that by my fact , i take nothing from christ , from his body , no not the lest thing . “ and that you my brethren are thus determined and resolved bending all your counsels to this end ; i am as strōgly perswaded , as he that is most . but the end which you have in common , alas for griefe , in this particular case ( pardon if i speake more freely , for yee would have me to speak ) from it yee seeme to have erred . for herein , if i see anie thing , the contemplation of your cause hath deceyved you , which thing i trust yee your selves without doubt will marke if ye would goe a little from that your particular sense “ from your cause . i have shewed that there is some errour in that end . let vs come to the fact . in the fact yee frame a purgation of your selues . that thing is denyed to none , if there be cause , if measure , if place , if time . but where fore with mee brethren , who doe neither heare these accusations of yours ; neither if i should heare them , would i receive them rashly ? wherefore in publick ? where yee knowe that it falleth out for the most part , that they who purge them selues , before they be accused , eyther bewray thēselues , or raise suspiciōs against themselues more easely thē they can afterward wash away . yee knowe that the publicke voice is neither a iust iudge oftentimes , nor at any time almost a lawfull iudge ; so greatly doth evil preuaile and beare sway in the publick . therefor yee appeale to these iudges , who can neither iudge , not take knowledge : finally , they are not onely no iudges , but not so much as witnesses : so the private cause is not furthered , and the publique is many waies hindered . ye will say thē , who shall bee ? what judges , what witnesses shal we call vpon ? your owne preface shall answere yee for me . for whē , ye pronūce that ye have foūd a place of rest by the mercy of god in these places ( ye doe acknowledge i thinke your owne words ) ye plainely signifie two things . one , that if ye have found a place of rest , ye shall doe wisely , if ye doe not stirre , where ye may be in quiet . the other that where you haue a lodging , and a quiet seate that there in deed you must receiue the iudgement of your doctrine and faith , if ye will have the same lawfully knowne and approoued . ye are in a church furnished with the servants of god , whose pietie , learning , and brotherly loue to the members of christ good men doe know . it is an vnlawfull course verily , to omit those among whom yee are and to call upon an other church , or the whole publik state , “ or this vniversity , or me who am a weake member therein , either in part , or in common . this order is godly , iust , lawfull , and tendeth to peace , and edification , which you ought first , modestly to have regarded , and to which i being a weake brother , am bounden by brotherly duetie , to recall my brethren , that goe astray , and not to be caried headlong , and to rush vpon the knowledge of things by this meanes offred ; besides all equitie and good order . till ye shall doe this , i admonish , exhort , pray , and beseech by the most sacred & holy name of christ , that ye would not call vpon me , neither any other , neither the publick it self : for by this preposterous course ( as we may so say ) ye do not disburthen your selues , as ye thinke , of enuy and blame ( if there be any ) but ye doe with suspition and praejudice burthen your owne cause , “ which i verily do not preiudice at all , i speak it religiously before the lord. let them speake first , with whom yee soiourne , whom yee deny not to be your brethren . but if peraduenture they shall not satisfie you , or yee shall not satisfie them , then let a new course be taken by lawfull order ▪ this no good man will denie , but till this be attempted , it will be vnprofitable to you , and hurt full to the church , to take another course . but neither i , nor my colleagues , nor other wise men , will euer be so vnwise as to preuēt or take this thing out of the hands of them , to whom the knowledge thereof doth of right appertaine . and so much of the doctrine . i come to the accusation which yee use against the church of england , as ye write . in this accusation beloued brethren , i doe louingly entreat you , that yee would not take it in ill part , if i doe admonish yee of a few things which i thinke , i may of right doe . first , what need is there , that yee should accuse them ? yee haue giuen place , yee haue ( as wee may so speake ) passed ouer into another court : wherefore you haue giuen place , no body desireth to know , or doth trouble you . if wrong be done you in england ( that i may grant there was done : it belongeth not to me , to affirme or deny who haue not knowne it ) yet this iniury hath ceased to prosequute you being departed from them . what compelleth you to be mooued , and to take vpon you , the burthen of accusation ? why are yee not quiet being without the daunger of any hurt ? why doe yee not rather passe ouer the iniury that is past ? why doe yee not beare it ( if there be yet any ) in silence and hope , rather then to mooue that which is in rest ? it is plainely a christian part , if thou beare it , and a prudent part , if thou abstaine from stirring the evill that is well appeased , an impotent thing , if thou doe contrariwise . and to what end i pray you is it ? to the end that you might purge your selues ? but here is no man that doth repeate anew , or lay these accusations against you . wherefore serueth this purgatiō ? that yee may be euen with them against whom yee cōplaine ? but this is not the part of a christian . i doe not thinke that this is your meaning . is it to reforme them ? this indeed is an holy endeuour . but if yee could not doe this when yee were present , cōsider what yee can doe when yee are absent . but first of all consider with your selues , by what meanes yee take this way , namely to accuse to me , to others , to the publike , in the theatre of the church , in the circle of the world ▪ ah beloued brethren , was it euer heard of , that any priuate man ( to say nothing of a great communitie ) was euer amended by this course further consider i pray you before whom yee bring these things . i will speak of my selfe , to whom alone yee would commit this your little booke ; i know not whether in this your little booke yee call upon me , as an intercessor , or examiner , or a iudge . for if as an intercessor , were it not better that your cōplain●s were kept secret , then layed open ( which tendeth to reproch ) and the church of christ , innumerable soules , weake , strangers , to be beaten with the types of your impression . it is most manifest , that they against whom yee deale , wil be more prouoked “ by this grieuous sting if as an examiner , by what right can i doe it ? who haue no lawful authority from god , from the church , from the magistrate , or frō both the parties : neither if it should be committed , would i easily accept it ; i am so privie to my selfe , of my owne insufficiencie ; for who am i ? or what am i ? that i should be able , throughly to see euery particular thing , concerning you , and them , which are required to a iust examination . and this the right course of examination doth require , otherwise ( as seneca wisely saith ) he that judgeth one party being not heard , albeit he iudgeth that which is right , yet he is vniust . yee are not a little deceiued in this your iudgement beloued brethren : yee almost do me an iniury , when ye call me to be a busie body , or think that i wil take upon me the part of an examiner , or ( that which is more subject to envie and farre from duetie ) of a iudge . and brethrē , that which i say of my selfe , thinke that is the answere of the other brethren “ which are any where els in churches and vniversities . no wise man will rashly goe downe these steps , or clime vp to this seate of judgement . in deed concerning your faith and doctrine something may be said , if you expound it , and if the thing be done in order . but touching the accusatiō of your coūtreymen and of mattets passed to and fro ; no wise man by my consent , wil , on this condition take vpon him the burthen of iudging . and for gods sake , consider the event of this fact . for i pray you whom would it profit if that were done which yee desire ? certainly neither would it profit you nor thē , nor these with whom ye soiourne , nor the church of god. contrariwise whom would it not hurt ? this thing would set you more on fire : “ as contentions are woont the more to make hote , the more they are stirred . it would more alienate them whom yee pretend to be to injuriously enstranged from you : for this is not the way of teaching , nor of informing , nor of seeking reconciliation . it would rent asunder the good men whose hospitality yee doe now commodiously vse either frō you , or amongst themselues ( which duetie they have not deserved of you by their hospitalitie , ) it would set a more grievous fier on the whole church , and spread through all her ioynts , which god turne away . and that “ vnwise mā which should vsurpe this authority , it would make a scorne to ill tōgues , while good men would pittie his vaine labour and your expectation . lastly ( that i may also adde this , and marke brethren , how sincerely and brotherly i deale with you ) albeit i might and would lawfully give sentence both of your faith which yee declare , and also of the fact of accusatiō which yee bend against your countreymen : yet yee by this course and maner of dealing have taken from me the authority of doing that which yee require touching your fact ; your selves by this maner of request do hinder your owne desier . ye will marvalle perhaps at that which i say , and yet it is so . for you doe so require my iudgement as you doe also with all require the iudgement of all vniversities and students . if you request this in common ; then you doe not desire that i should doe it alone : but if particularly , doe you thinke that any of vs will be so mad , that when the judgement of so many good men and diligence is desired , some one palamon should take vpon him the chiefest parts : and should by him selfe speake of that thing , which is required of so many as learned , yea better learned , and better furnished with pi●●ie , judgement , and experience , which requireth a serious consultation , an holy communication , and a ripe inoffensive judgment . but now of the third thing what shal i say ? “ your selves i think , beloved brethren , do mynd that if i cannot on this condition , neyther ought , to give answer concerning the two points a foresaid ▪ it would be vtterly vnjust if i should as yet determine any thing on eyther side towching the cōclusion which you draw frō thence , that is , from those premisses . but i verily suspēd my iudgemēt , brethrē i suspend my iudgemēt in this cause , even as god & nature , & reason , and al lawes command me to do . ye know i think the causes by these things which ye haue now read , & shal learne besides by other things which god shal minister vnto you ( i hope ) by the spirit of trueth and wisdome . i ought not to iudge with my selfe of matters vnknowne , at least not so evident , neither yet with such forward boldnesse to pronoūce among you or others , the matter being not sufficiently manifest to my selfe . god knoweth and iudgeth , “ to whom stand or fall as many as are his servants . otherwise i trust yee are not ignorāt that there are three things which euē frō the verie infancie of the church , the holy fathers would haue to be distinguished by the word of god , among the people of god , namely , faith or doctrine , conversation or manners , and the order of discipline . and all wise men haue taught this with one consent , and delivered it to posteritie , that where the foundation of the truth of doctrine remaineth , which is the piller of saluation , although with most corrupt manners and discipline , there the church remaineth , & that no man ought rashly to separate himselfe from that church ( whiles he may tarry in it without ship wracke of faith and conscience ) or take from it the name of a church , especially seeing euery church consisteth of pastors and flocke , which if some pastors or prelates trouble , yet it is vnmeete that this name either should be taken away from the other pastors , which christ doth witnesse by the doctrine of truth , or from the flocke which christ hath purchased with his owne bloode , and doth daily sanctifie with the washing of the newe birth by the worde . this ought to be sufficient for you if any thing have offended you at home , “ that now the fatherly & mercifull providence of god hath provided for you elsewhere . certainely whiles yee inueigh against those churches , yee shal make that your cause neuer the better , neither more probable with good men : which thing if yee have not yet considered and conceived by my aduise and counsell , and by the admonition of those which wish you wel , experience it selfe at last ( god grant it be not to late , and he informe you in good ) will prooue all th●se things vnto you . for by the trueth of doctrine , holinesse of life , by the worke of faith and patience , and by the dueties of charitie euen towards them of whome yee professe that ye are wronged , yee shal rather approove your selves and your cause , thē by outcryes and publishing of writings , euen as our sauiour is saide to bring iudgement to victorie not by filling the streetes with shouting and clamours , but by blowing gently into the smoking flax and tender handling the bruised reede . which thinges seeing they be so , i beseech you most louing brethrē in christ by that most holi name of christ which ye profese , by those bowels mercie , wherewith christ hath embraced vs frō on high , that yee would thinke of another course , that yee would take another way to salvation , to edificatiō , to peace . “ if there be consent , shake not your faith , which is not to be winnowed againe by new reasons . this course is suspitious . but if it must needs be sifted , let it suffice you that it be first approved by those servants of god among whome yee dwell : this is certainnly a lawfull course : forgiue the former iniuries if any have beene , by christian charitie to them from whom yee have received the same , & hide them frō others by christiā wisdome . there is no feare , that by so doing yee should “ be burst : god will enlarge your harts by the spirite of charitie most cōmodiously . looke to your selues that overcomming al sharpnesse and al bitternesse of minde yee may be acceptable to christ and profitable to the church , and that “ the sweet odour of your pietie may be spread in speach , in life , in order to all the godly without the stench of enmitie and schisme . iudge not that yee be not iudged : but abstaine from those heavie determinations and conclusions ( as they call them ) against othermen , neither labour either to get abetters or partakers in that your former iudgement ( which would be saide in you to be a spice of faction in them of imprudencie , or else to drawe them to an vnseasonable , vncivill , inconvenient and dangerous deliuerie of opinions . pitie your selues i beseech you ( most louing brethren ) and the whole flocke which is gathered among you . haue pittie of them whome thorough error & infirmitie yee cry out be hurt . pitie your entertainers among whome it were a most i●iurious thing that ye should sowe these tates , especially being admonished . and it would be a greate indignitie by clamours and writings to brede in them suspicions and sinister opinions , eyther of your selves or of those your adversaries ( as you count them ) or els of both . finally pitie the church of christ , which verily it is not comely , nor expedient neither in any case tolerable amōg so many and greeuous wounds which are “ universally given vnto it , to be further galled with this particular wound . so let god almightie loue you and iesus christ that most mercifull lord , and our sauiour be mercifull vnto you . and if i shall be able to doe any good in the publicke cause and yours , assure your selves that i will spare no diligence , no labour , no paines , that you with vs and all togither may be filled with sāctimony ( without which none shal se god ) with the good things of the lord in his house , and before his face . and the god of peace which hath raised from the dead our lord iesus that great sheepeheard of the sheepe , by the blood of the eternall couenant , make you perfect in euery good worke to doe his will , working in you , that which is acceptable in his sight by iesus christ , to whom be glorie for ever and ever , amen . and i pray you brethren suffer this word of exhortation , which i have briefely writtē vnto you . the grace of god be with you all , amen . from leyden this saturday the 9. of ianuary . 1599. yours in the lord francis iunius . the answer to the letter aforesaid . to the reverend and learned mr. francis iunius , our beloved brother in christ , at leyden in holland . grace and peace from god the father and the lord iesus christ our saviour . reverend sr. and beloved brother in christ / we have lately received your letter / which you sent vnsealed to the ministers of the dutch and frēch churches / that it might first be read of thē / and them be delyvered to vs. we have also read and weighed it / and thought it meet to wryte agayne / partly to thank you that vouched safe to write vnto vs : partly to satisfy you ( if we can ) in some thinges wherein we see you are mistaken : in the wryting wherof / we humbly request that speaking freely that which the thing it self requireth you would take it in good part / as you are woōt . many thinges indeed you have wrytten which we do willingly acknowledg and consent therein with you . those we will not touch at all . the rest we will prosequute in the same order / as by your self ●hey are propounded . whereas there was a litle booke exhibited vnto you by one of vs / it is not so to be takē / as if you were called vpō alone or apart from others . for the brother which delyvered you the booke certified vs / that this passed betwene you / that by you it should be communicated with your colleagues the governours of that vniversity / and that you tooke vpon you to do it . now if you have so done / how is it that you alone wryte back againe ? why also do you so often repeat and seeme to reprehend that you / you ( we say ) alone / apart / are called vpon ? if you have not done it / mynde then on whome the blame lyeth that it is not communicated with thē in that vniversity / to whome by vs it was dedicated . and we do now agayne entreat you / that being myndfull of your promyse you would performe it : that so you with the other learned and godly men and brethren there / may eyther convynce our fayth and cause of errour / or els together with vs conted for this sayth once gyven to the saints . the one of these we take it must needes be donne . and we gather it by comparing together iam. 5.19.12 . with iude ver . 3. this also is the very thing which we did desire and still do desire in that epistle dedicatory . and let these thinges once spoken / suffyce ( we pray you ) for the crimination of calling on you apar● , which in this letter of yours you have so oftē objected and repeated . next you propound three tinges to be considered in the booke it self / of which you promyse to speake / briefly and brotherly / what you thinke . 1. the first head ( you say ) is of the doctrine , which we professe in our booke . be it so indeed . here we expected ( because you purpose to wryte of the doctrine we professe ) that you would have discussed the articles of our fayth / and reproved the errours ( if there be any ) by the light of gods word . and who would not have expected this ? but behold / there is not a word of the doctrine and fayth it self . what may this meane ? is it because your self beleeu this faith to be trew-sound groūded on the word of god and agreable thervnto ? if so why thē wryting these thinges / do you not professe it ? why do you dissemble it ? specially / whē you heare that this fayth is traduced as schisme / as heresy ? but you see perhaps that in the doctrine of faith we erre from the truth . if it be so / why then wryte you / and yet shew not the errours ? why do you not ( as much as in you is ) bring into the way such as do erre ? do not whē request is made that the errours may be shewed by the light of the holy scripture ▪ certainly your godlynes perswadeth otherwise : yea / god himself requireth otherwise . iam. 5.19.20 . yet now when you touch not the doctrine it self / what is it that you wryte in this behalf ? even this only / that you would perswade we have erred herein that we have publyshed the confession of our faith . first of al this concerneth the maner / not the matter it self . but yet let vs weigh your reasons : if ( say you ) there be a certayne consent of doctrine : then there was no need that we should set forth a new confession in this agreement of holy and ancient doctrine . doe you indeed speak as you thinke ? how is it then that some while synce / when the germane and french churches had before publyshed their confessions of fayth / yet afterward the belgick / scotish / and other churches set forth theirs also / notwitstanding that they agreed with them in the holy and anncient doctrine ? yea tell vs ( we pray you ) what you think of that godly and learned mr. beza his pryvate confession of fayth lately publyshed ? not to speake of many other wrytten and divulged by many of the martyrs also / in their severall ages . do not all these agree in the holy and anncyent doctrine of godlynes ? or should not therfore these confessions have bene publyshed ? what soever you shall say for them / mynd the same also as spoken for vs. secondly you say , if there be any dissention in doctrine , that ought not to be dissembled , &c. but what is this to vs / who have playnely shewed and reckned vp the thinges wherein we dissent from the church of england / with whom we have to do in this behalf ? neyther that only / but have also in our confession not obscurely signified / concerning the thinges wherein the other churches of this city and ours as yet do not agree . after these thinges / you come to discusse the end and fact of our publyshing this confession . touching the end , we have shewed it in the epistle and preface set before the booke it self . and we answer further / that we did this to the same end / that all the reformed churches of late did publysh theirs . for proof wherof / let the preface of the harmony of confessions / compared with ours / speak for vs. if you take away the reasons by both alleadged / we yeeld . but if you cannot / then see whether both here and other where often in this letter you do not through our sydes strike at all these churches lykewise . our cause and cleering , we commyt to god and to all godly that love the truth . such as before knewe not our cause they may now by this meanes have knowledg therof . such as be enemyes of god / of the church / of the truth / have nothing by this book of ours / wherof to rejoyce . they will rather be grieved when thus they shall see antichrist that man of synne to be more and more discovered / whom the lord in the end will wholy consume and abolysh / with the spirit of his mouth in the testimony ( not in the silence ) of his servants . 2. thes . 2.8 . with rev. 12.11 . and 14 6 7 8. and 20.4 . fynally / such as be weak and by reason of the stink of schismes know not the true body of christ whervnto they should joyne themselves / they may by this meanes be better instructed and induced more certainly to know and imbrace the true church and fayth of christ . thus desyre we that the publyck good of the church be holye forward / that christ may have the preeminence over all . and thus have we spoken of the end / in which as yet we see not any mistaking or errour . touching the fact , we answer in lyke maner as before concerning the end . yea and the thinges which here you bring / for not doing it in publyck / you may vrge the very same lykewise against all the reformed churches / against athanasius , origen , augustine , tertullian , and others of the fathers / against zuinglius , luther , calvine , beza , and many other of these ages / godly men / and divers of them also martyrs of iesus christ : who have set forth in publyck their confessions of fayth private their apologies complaynts / disputations / yea and their letters concerning matters in religion publyckly controverted . but these things perhaps came not in your mynd / whiles there was before your eyes only the contemplation of our particular cause : which thing your self ( we trust ) will perceive / if you turne your eyes a lytle from vs vnto others approved by your self . moreover howsoever the evill ( wherof you wryte ) do prevayte in publyck : yet alwayes and every where wisdome is justified of her children / as christ hath taught / mat. 11.16.19 . and this shall suffice vs and all that are godly . lastly / in a case of such weight and necessity / who should rather be called vpon then the students of the holy scriptures in christian vniversityes ? who ( we pray you ) are esteemed to be of better or sounder judgment ? whome doth it more concerne to take knowledg / of the truth and errours in religion ? who should better instruct in the truth / or convince falshoold ? and to conclude / who can or ought to attend more to the discussing of these things ? but you object / that seeing we have here found place of rest , here also we must receive the judgment of our doctrine and fayth , if we will have the same lawfully knowen and approved , &c. here come many things to be considered . first what if the rest and breathing / which here we enjoye / come vnto vs / not by the ministers ( of whome you speak ) but by the magistrats : which we do alwayes and every where acknowledg with thanckes . secondly what if these ministers ( men indeed learned and wise ) should be of the same mynd with you / that they would not heare or speake any thing concerning our fayth and cause : inasmuch as they would not be eyther intercessours , or examiners , or iudges ? furthermore / what if our confession of fayth have ben exhibited to them above three yeares synce / that by them it might eyther be approved / or the errours ( if there be any ) convinced ? what if some of them have denounced vs as hereticks and schismaticks ? what if they have received certayne articles full of lyes and sclaunders / spread abroad against vs / and yet to this daye have not gyven vs a copy of them / no though they were desyred ? what if vpon occasion offered we have dealt with them touching certaine corruptions yet remayning in their churches / which notwithstanding they would not so much as acknowledg ? and finally / what if we after the concealing and not regarding of all these thinges / have now agayne this last yeare delyvered them the confession of our fayth in wryting / before it was put forth in print ? you see what we could answer in this behalf : but we would rather have burned these thinges in forgetfulnes / if you had not so vrged vs as from you they might not now be concealed . pardon you therfore and let them also ( we intreat ) pardon vs / that we speak freely : for you would have vs speak / yea you constreyne vs against our will to wryte these things / which we would have covered in silence / hoping hereafter for better . besydes these / we answer also that in the preface before our confession is signified / that not here only but almost every where we are traduced as heretickes / and schismaticks : and that therfore it concerned vs / to declare our fayth and cause not to these only but vnto all . the very thing which before vs on lyke occasion ( as is aforesaid ) both dyvers of the ffathers have don of old / and in later wines almost all the reformed churches / and of the martyrs not a few . and hitherto of your reasons alleadged against the publyshing of our our fayth : which how weak they are now judg your self . but suppose they were strong / and that therfore herein we had erred / that our confession came forth in publyck : yet now it is publyshed / the errours ( if any be found in it ) are certeynly to be shewed and convinced by the word of god. otherwise you may easily gather that we shall be more cōfirmed in this fayth . and seing you ( learned sr. ) do purposely wryte cōcerning the doctrine which we professe / and yet shew not any one errour in the doctrine : consider wel what you have done . will you be ready to help them who erre ( as you think ) in the manner and circumstāces ? and will you afford no help at all in the matter and fayth it self ? far be this from you from your godlynes learning / wisdome / charity . and thus much of the first poynt which you noted concerning doctrine . 2 the second head is of the fact wherof ( as you say ) we accuse the englysh churches . here also we expected / that you would have discussed those fower poynts / which are particularly rehearsed in the preface of this book / and which we shewed to be done and vsed by / them dayly in their divine worship : for which also we testifyed that we are banished and have departed from them . but of these neyther / have you not one word and yet this was the specyall fact / which we noted for to be considered in that church . that other of the prelats tyranny and persecution of vs / we touched but by the way and in a few wordes . we marvell therfore / yea and greatly marvell that these thinges which directly concerne the matter and cause it self / should thus every where be let passe by you / who yet pretend to bring into the way such as do erre . but les vs see nevertheles what the thinges are which you do here so much vrge . the first is / that those churches from which we have departed , should not by vs be accused about the word accusation we will not contend : onely this we say / we vse it no● ( that we remember ) except whē we treat of our owne cause who by them are accused of heresy schisme sedition etc. of which for asmuch as we are accused among them / here and every where : what good man will deny vnto vs place of defence : but you say / no man desyreth to know why we came thence , and that the injury also hath left to prosequute vs being departed from them how these things escaped you we marvell . for in both of them you wryte other wise then the thing is . for both many do dayly desier to know why we came thence / and the injury hath prosequuted vs being departed / into this place to this very day of the former we need cyte no witnesses : for they are almost infinite . of the latter / besydes the latine bookes publyshed at home by our owne contreymen / besydes the libels which they have sparsed against vs in this city besydes the sclaunders wherewith then do also pursue vs every where : besydes all these ( we say ) the ministers them selves of the churches dutch and frēch both here at amsterdam and at dordrecht are able to testifye ▪ they have received ( as we said afore ) certeyne articles full of lyes and sclaunders / wrytten against vs / and yet still they have them for ought we know ▪ moreover / if none of these things had fallē out opēly before the world yet who knoweth not that antichrists retinew ( such as be the prelats ) do still resemble the nature and conditions of the dragon / who out of his mouth cast waters like a flood after the woman / that he might cause her to be caryed away of the flood whom being present he could not devoure . rev. 12. and 13 chap. as for that you annexe of concealing injuryes , it hath ben observed by vs / as much as we could . for neyther have we in particular related them / neyther can we if we would . we have noted only in generall / that these prelats have done the very things / which the scripture foretold should by the beast and antichrist be commytted neyther are we in this kind of writing eyther the first / or alone . thus heretofore have many of the servants of god wrytten / who in their severall countries have ben many wayes ve●ed by antichrist . neyther that only / but they have also noted downe the particuler persons / names / places / tymes / martyrdomes / causes / actions / injuryes . search ( if you please ) the ecclesiasticall writers almost of everye age : search the acts and momments of the martyrs / in this countrey in ours / in scotland / in france / in the other countryes almost all here about : yea search the acts of the apostles / and see if such particular historyes be not there also recorded . yet further / tell vs ( we pray you ) if this course had ben held by all / which you seem to exact of vs : from whence then could you or any other have that knowledg and evidence , as now is had / of the fulfilling ( throughout severall ages / of those prophecyes which are in the scriptures / of the beast / of the false prophet / of antichrist / of his mystery / exaltation / tyranny / marchants discovery / fall / etc. how should from their owne acts / the adversaryes mouthes be so stopped / as now we see / heare and read / is dayly done by the martyrs and servants of christ ? lastly / how could your self and other learned men have so expounded that divine book of the revelation ( not to speak of other scriptures lykewise interpreted ) as you have now already done / which great fruit / and gratulation of all the godly ? of the end which here againe you vrge / we have spoken both before in this letter / and in the epistles prefixed to the book it self . adde herevnto / that if the prelats and other adversaryes of the truth be not by these and the lyke wrytinges amended / they shall yet doubtlesse be made the more vnexcuseable . the visard also by which they have deceyved you ( as it seemeth ) and almost all others / was to be pulled of . but this could not be donne for the knowledg of all ( as was mee● ) otherwise then by publyck wryting . to omytt others / we appeale vnto your conscience ( learned s. ) whether you did think the estate of that church and of those prelats to be such in any measure touching their antichristian constitution / leitourgy / ministery / hierarchy ( which your self acknowledg to be that other beast / in rev. 13 , 11.18 . ) as now for certeyne you heare and see it in that book as it were paynted out before your eyes . but of these things ynough is sayd in the book it self surely these and the lyke their vnfruitfull workes of darknes / were to be reprooved / not dissembled / not allowed : especyally seing they are so stiffely by them retayned / defended / vrged : and that vnder a pretence of the gospell / with which they have no more agreement then darknes hath with light / beliall with christ . neyther is this to take vp burthens of accusations , but to take away the visard of antichristian apostasy / and to witnes the truth of iesus christ against antichrist . which duty our lord and saviour christ requireth of you / of vs / of all the godly : the lord ( we say ) who in these latter tymes hath begunne to discover that lawles man of sinne / and will at length consume him with the spirit of his mouth / by the word of the testimony of his servants . so far of is it / that they should be accounted busy bodyes , which performe this duty to christ : or that we herein have don you any iniury . so far of also is it / that we should think what you speak of your self , the same to be answered vs by the rest of the bretheren that are any where els in churches , in vniversityes . not to speak of others / we know that mr. beza that worthy servant of god hath in causes not much vnlyke answered otherwise . but of this matter more herafter . in the meane tyme ( that we also may deale syncerely and brotherly with you ) mynd we pray you / whether you have not done your self iniury / whiles you have climed into this seate so confident●● to pronounce that of others ▪ wherof ( as we think ) you cannot any way have certaine knowledg : yea whiles you alone determyne of that matter / which ( to use your owne wordes ) requireth serious consultation and holy communication . touching the event , we commit it to god / who ( we certeynly hope ) will worck al these things for good both to vs / and to thē by whom we are exiled and to these amonge whom we sojorne / and to the church of god every where . and to whom ( we pray you ) would it not be good / if that were done / which we des●er ? ffor our selves , if we erre / let the righteous smyte and reprove vs / it shal be a benefyt and precious oyntment vnto vs. for our adversaries , if they be the more estraunged / it shal be their own fault not ours / nor theirs that shall godlyly and freely testifie what they see in this cause : and who knoweth / whether by this meanes they may be brought to consider more then heretofore both of the vnlawfull constitution of that church / and of their outragious cruelty : and therevpon seriously endevour a godly redressing of the former / and an vtter repressing of the latter ? for the good among whom we sojourne , they shall have better knowledg of our fayth and cause : they may also grow vp together more strongly in the truth of the gospell / whiles thus they are stirred vp more carefully to endevour that the corruptions wherewith their churches yet are faulty may be duly abolyshed / and whiles such as are seduced by the errours of the papists / anabaptists / and other hereticks troubling these churches are vpon this occasion drawne from such estate and stirred vp to search / knowe / and embrace the truth of gospell . fynally for the whole church , we hope it shall hence also receive much profyt / if this fayth and cause ( which now a long tyme hath ben condempned for schisme and heresy ) if also that antichristian apostasy ( which now a long tyme vnder the visard of godlynes hath deceived the world in the mystery of iniquity ) if these things we say / being of so great moment / be examyned and discussed by the canon of the scriptures / of so many and so worthy men furnyshed with learning / godlynes judgment / wisdome . and thus much of the second poynt which was concerning the fact . the third ( you say ) is of the conclusion inferred vpon comparing together the doctrine and fact aforesaid . here first you affirme / you with●●ould your self in suspence in this cause . be it so . it is god that can reveale this also vnto you / and perswade your conscience by his spirit and word . then you annex some things concerning the doctrine and consent of the fathers and all wise men in all ages : but you propound them so doubtfully that ( as touching our cause ) we cannot perceive what your meaning is . your wordes may so be vnderstood / as we most willingly consent with you in this matter : agayne / they may be so taken / as we dissent from you not a lytle nor without cause . we are perswaded / that separation should not be made from any church eyther rashly / or at all so long as we may remayne with sound fayth and cōscience . you must therfore speak more playnely / what you think of our separation if you suppose we have erred in this behalf : all those things being discussed by the word of god / which we have menc●oned in the preface and confession aforesaid . in the meane tyme heare and ponder well ( we pray you ) what mr. beza that learned man and well deserving of the church of christ hath wrytten and publyshed some while since concerning this question . thus he hath in his epistles publyshed / in the right epistle sent to ed : grir dall heretofore p●elate of london wherein wryting of the state and corruptiōs of the churche of england he sayeth , if it be trew which is commōly reported , and wherof my self am not yet perswaded , that private baptisme is there permitted to women , i see not what is to turne back againe from whence men came , if this be not : &c but if those things ●e true , which i thincke are not lykely , to wit , that the metropolytanes retayne in vse those most fil●hy abuses ( then which the church of antichrist hath not any thing more intollerable ) namely , pruralyties of benefyces , lycences of non residency , l●cences to mary and eat flesh , and other the lyke : this were cert●nly ( which i speake with horrour ) not a corruption of christianity , but a manifest defection from christ : and therfore they not to be condemned ▪ but commended rather , which oppose them selves to such endevours , &c. these and many other the lyke sayings he hath in his epistles and other bookes publyshed . now as touching the things which he thought not to be so much as lykely , we know them to be most true : neyther these only but almost an hundreth the lyke / as we have touched in the preface of our confession . among which we bes●ec● you consider these three specially ( yet so as you turne not your eyes away frō the rest ) the confirmation of such a● have be●● baptised ( when nowe they are waxen older ) administred by the prelats themselves vnto this day : their holy orders of clergy : the discipline and sanctions of the cannō law ( as they call it ) yet reteyned in that churche : and tell vs ( we pray you ) freely and syncerely / what now you think of the estate of that church / and of our separation . ●erily ( if we conceive you right ) your self expound the marke , the name , and the nomber of the name of the beast , to be vnderstood of these , three last aforesaid abhomynations of antichrist : in your exposition of rev. 13. ver , 16.17.18 . and to receive these / you know also well i● forbydden vnto all vnder payne of eternall damnation . rev. 14.9.10 11. and 18.4.5 . but to returne to m. beza agayne / in him there are many thinges ( cōcerning our cause ) to be carefully observed : first / that his private epistles he set forth in publyck : secondly / that in t●● he di● not dissemble / but freely and ingeniously declare his iudgment of the estate of the church of england : thirdly that yet he was n● busibody ▪ or vnwise which would clime into th●● seate / or by provoking that church made his cause the worse with good mē etc. fourthly / if ther were nothing els yet by this we may well think / that what you say of your self / is not the answer of the other brethrē which are in any place in churches and vniversityes : lastly that he should not have burst , if he had dissembled these things / nor yet while he wrote the godly and faythfully / was factious vnciuill , or sowed any ●a●es , but ha●e witnes to the truth of the gospel of christ and did truly shew that ●e trod in the steps of the apostle who wryteth and testifyet thus of himself and of all the faithful servāts of christ / we cānot ●o any thing against the truth , but for the truth . 2 cor. 13.8 but these things by the way : yet so as you may well consider with your self ( beloved brother ) whether the things which here and ther in your letter you seem to insinuate against vs fal not vpō the very head of that most godly mā mr. beza by lyke right or rather indeed by lyke wrōg . of other lyke godly and learned 〈◊〉 we will not now speake : it shall suffice here to have mencioned him / alone . and where you seem to acknowledg for true pastors the prelats and priests by thē created ( such as the english ministery is knowē to be ) mynd how well you have done this and how agreably with the spirit of god / which calleth such / locusts , false prophets , the whores marchants / &c. but touching that which you speak of christ our saviour how he brought iudgment to victory , not by crying out and filling the streets with clamours , but by blowing softly vpon the smoking flax and handling tenderly the brused reed . this we do indeed most willingly acknowledg / and pray that we may alwayes followe this his most sacred example . neverthelesse / this also must be remembred that christ dealt after one maner with the weack ( of whome here the speach is ) after an other with the * scribes and pharisees and other the like sworne enemyes of the truth : such as at this day be the prelats and their complices : which who is it that doth not know ? who is it that doth not acknowledg . the same also may be seē in the apostles of christ and in their dealing with simon magus , elymas , hymenaeus , alexander , philetus , diotrephes , &c. which things being so we humbly besech you ( reverend and beloved sr. by that most holy name of christ / which you professe / by the mercyes of god wherewith he hath loved vs in christ / that you would thnik of another course ( then such as yet it seemeth you allow ) that you would take an other way for discovering and destroying the defection of antichrist for setting forward the salvation edificatiō and peace both of vs and others . hold on to defend the true fayth ( as now a good while you have done with great praise and fruit of the godly ) and discover errours : maynteyne good causes and forsake evill : strive for christ and the truth of his gospell / and fight against antichrist and the remnants of his apostasy . let it be manifest to all / what your mynd and judgment is / not only concerning the fayth of christ / but also concerning the mystery / apostasy / and iniquity of antichrist : ffinally / as touching our selves in specyall / if you wryte agayne / we do humbly and earnestly entreat / if any where we have erred in our fayth and chuse / that you vouchsafe to shew it vs by the light of gods word ▪ otherwise it wil be suspected / seing you bestow so much paynes in discussing these things which concerne the māner and not the matter it self that eyther you do dissemble your iudgment ( what soever it be ) or that in very deed you are of the same mynd with vs : specially seing now you have wrytten / that you do not any preiudice at all to our cause , and have spoken this religiously before the lord. pity● ( we pray you ) our church , here exiled every where reproched / eaten vp in a maner with deep poverty despised and afflicted wel nere of al against which sathan hath now a long tyme attempted all vtmost extremyties . pity them , from whome we have departed , who vnder pretence of the gospell contynew still in antichristian defection / and do so stifley hold and eagerly maynteyne it / as there is scant any among them that dare so much as hisse against it . pity these churches ( among whome we sejourne ) in which wheter you look at the publyck prayers / or the administration of the sacraments / or the execution of discipline / there be sundry ●a●es , ( if they may be called ●ares ) or rather corruptions / and those also not of small moment : at which as is reported the anabaptists / and others not a few that lyve here do stumble : of which also we have heretofore conferred frendly with the ministers of these churches ( men indeed learned and our bretheren beloved ) but hitherto we do not accord therein : yet hope for better consent herafter / by the blessing of god / and throug the help of you and other godly men . finally / pity the whole church of christ , which verily it is not meet nor expedient neyther indeed ought among so many and grievous woundes of hers vniversally inflicted / to be further galled with this particular wound / that you should not take it in good part to have by vs the true faith of christ publyshed and the remnants of antichrists apostasy discovered . and thus have we wrytten freely and boldly vnto you / good sr whom we do vnfeynedly acknowledg to be godly / learned / and well deserving of the church of christ . for we had rather / that men should fynd fault with our boldnes / then that christ should reprove vs for leaving his cause . neyther doubt we but your self according to your wonted and commendable humanity / wil pardon vs this fault / whereinto we have ben drawen / not with a mynd to contradict / but with love of verity and affection of charity . and god himself even our father / which hath loved and called vs in christ / and hath given vs eternall consolation and good hope through grace / fulfill in you all the gratious pleasure of his goodnes and the work of fayth with power / that the name of our lord iesus christ may bee glorified in you / and you in him . the grace of our god and lord iesus christ be with your spirit . amen . from amsterdam : the 19 of the second moneth called february / 1599. yours in the lord most addicted . francis iohson . ●aniel studley . stanshall mercer . henry ainsworth . georg knyveton . christopher bewman . and the rest of the english people exiled for the gospell sake and at this present remayning at amsterdam . mr. iunius his second epistle . to his beloved brethren the english people at amsterdam . grace and peace from the lord. your letters ( loving brethren ) i received yesterday and read . if your messēger had shewed mee before , to whome , or whither i should have written , the matter had beene other wise caried : but i sought and wayted a whole moneth , being vncertaine to whom i might send . if any thing were done otherwise then we would , it was your owne fault . that ye giue no place to false suspition , i did nothing without the knowledge of my brethrē and colleagues . to you i gave counsell : if it please you not , you may let it alone for me : it becommeth not vs to be contentious : for it is not our custome , nor the custome of the churches of god. now that messenger of yours spake onely to me , without letters , and called not on any of my colleages : what thē is the blame you lay vpō me ? * none forbad me to give counsel alone . you asked indeed about a matter of faith , but wee thought good rather to deale about giving you cōsell . what ? if a mā answere not according to your prescript , is it by and by an iniurie ? give vs leave , brethrē , i pray you , to use our own iudgement : we thought it fitter to give you counsell , then to make an answere to your demaundes , and that this wee might doe vnto you in brotherly dutie . if we might not , ″ yet will wee bee more indifferent towards yow : you may for vs abstaine , you may rent the letters , and we also will concele it . i wrote as touching counsell , because i thought ther was need of it . i wrote not of the question , because i thought the time was not for it . otherwise i had neuer thought of you , or your matters , no not so much as in my dream : so greatly doe i shunne to bee a medler in other mēs matters . you will say , why w●s not the time for it ? surely because the matter was not cleere to me , to have beene handled in order , and good maner : wherunto by giving you counsell , i called you backe . for if you kept good manner and order , yow might hav shewed it : if you kept it not , you might have returned vnto it and observe it . i knewe nothing at all , either by you , or by any other , which i speake , to the ende that you suspect none that is innocent . our manner is to make answere in order , to them that aske according unto order : if any aske not in order , our manner is to call them backe to order , as is meete : yea if any vrge vs a hundred times besides order : we will call him backe an hundred times vnto order ; or else by silence take order for our owne quietnesse and securitie . will you therefore take the thing in question for graunted : pardon me● ( deare brethren : ) this is more thē either y●ririe or charitie doth teach . hee that speaketh a thing different , speaketh neither this not that “ of the questiō : but he who vppon advice dooth speake a different thing , dooth deferre his iudgement , giving sentence on neither side if you will not permit mee to do this , which euerie man may lawfully doe , “ i will take this one thing as my right , to keepe silence , that i may free my speach from cauillations . hee that shall say “ i cōfesse the thing , shall wittingly offend against the truth . others have set forth confessions . i know it , and i commend it : for eyther they seemed and were sayd to stagger in the hands of their persecutors , or else “ moved of consciēce they did it orderly with the consend and approbation of the church : but he who writeth with a mind to dissent , writeth against order , and sifteth the soares of the church against the law of charitie . but you professe , that if there be any dissention , you do not dissemble it ▪ surely in your confession i see no token wherby i may be certainely perswaded of it . haue me excused : my senses are to dull to smell out things that are so secret . and yet now i thāke you euē for this , that you acknowledge your dissent in some things from the ministers of the church of amsterdam : and i thanke god which moued mee to suspend my iudgement . therefore i did well who beeing altogether ignorant of your matters , did yet so write that i prevented a thing by you dissembled , ( or at least obscurely set down ) by whole some counsel . the end , which is the cleering of your selves ( although i knew nothing of you ) you shall sooner attaine in one day by dealing with the church wherein you are , then in an hundred yeare ( if you should live so long ) by writing to other churches “ hither and thither . you do not yet perswade me that you have dealt orderly : if we sticke constantly to order , and you dislike it , at least beare with vs. for whereas you say that you are euery where proclaimed heretickes , &c. i knewe nothing of you , neither should yet have knowne any thing if you had held your peace : so strongly are my eares stopped against al rumors . of the fact of the english churches , i have not certaine knowledge : why would you have vs speake ? you might have been silent as i admonished you by my letters , and will you not let vs be so ? “ you may if so be you know the thing so well , have the iudgemēt of it with your selves : but to publish it among the people , to call for abettors of it , and to exact like iudgement of vs you cannot . keepe your confidence to your selves , and leave vs our modesty , who have resolved not to speake of other mens matters , except we know them thoroughly . you thinke that other good mē will say otherwise , but i think better of them who in my perswasion are furnished with knowledge , skill , and wisedome from heaven , that they would sooner subscribe to our modestie , then to this your iudiciall confidence . to looke to the event , is a point of wisdome : which if you regard not , i pray god the author of all wisedome to give you discretion . touching the conclusion , ( bretheren ) what shall i say otherwise then i haue said ? i verily have resolved neither for you , nor for any mortall man to bee headie and inconsiderate in iudging : especially when it neither belongeth to me to do it , neither can it bee done with any fruit . if you can doe it rightly , wee doe not hinder you : but let vs who cannot , professe this one thing to you , that we can be no iudges . touching others whome we knowe , we have spoken else where : but touching them , because we knowe thē not , “ wee do not yet speak . cōcerning beza ( how excellent a man ) that which you often say , take heede brethren , you bee not deceived . he spake by way of supposition , which you expresse in your letters : we , because we see , and experience doth teach vs , that his wordes being spoken by way of supposition , are vnderstoode of many as spoken simply , dare not so much as answere by way of supposition . is this such an hainous and capitall fault with you ? bee it farre from you brethren , bee it farre from you to take that course with good men , which god , reason , and the times haue taught vs to be daungerous . rash and headie iudgements are not to be required , not to bee endured , not to be heard . that god of truth might iustly punish vs , if casting a side discretion ( which is most needefull in these times ) wee should answere alwayes to all questions according to the lawes prescribed by such as propounde the same . these three things according to god and vnder him are a lawe to vs , veritie , charitie , and discretion . if any one of these bewanting , we are afraid to offend . we crave of you ( brethrē ) that at least , you woulde leave vs this our religious feare , till all thinges bee made more plaine and easie vnto vs : and if you thinke your selves more strōg in iudging , beare with vs as with weake ones , til by godly quietnes and holy studie , we may attaine to more high and certaine thinges . that which wee may doe , truely , godlily , brotherly , wisely , we will neuer be slacke to doe , if wee may profite you and the church of christ . the lorde furnish you ( beloued brethren ) with his spirit , and direct you to veritie and charitie in holy wisedome and faith to the glorie of his name , the edification of his bodie , and obtayning of your owne salvation , amen . leyden , wednesday , the 10 of march. 1599. yours vnfeynedly , fran iunius . the answer to mr. iunius his second letter . to the learned and our beloved brother in christ mr. francis iunius at leyden in holland . grace and peace from god the father and our lord iesus christ . reverēd sr. your letters were delyvered vs : which when we had read / we thought thus with our selves : if we wryte againe / it wil be thought perhaps ●ontentious if we hold our peace it may prove hurtfull to the truth . what is then to be done ? we must absteyne from contending / yet so as the truth be not forsaken for which the apostle exhorteth even to ●omesty . thus then ( worthy sr. ) receive our answer briefly . in that you did nothing in this matter , without the knowledg of your brethren and colleagues , we therefore give you thanckes : for now you have had consultatiō together / yet shew you nor any one errour in our fayth and cause . touching that we rested not in your counsell , we had many and waighty reasons so to move vs which we signifyed to you in our former letters / but you have her● in silence passed by them . vntyll you take them away / we think it cannot be shewed that in this matter we have done any thing otherwise then in good manner● and order meet and needfull . publyck infamy requireth publick apology . others that have set forth their confessions , are by you acknowledged and commended we belyke only have offended in so doing : a●d that which every church man lawfully do ( and almost every man vpō iust cause ) yet to vs and our church you will not permit it . so indifferent are nou towards vs. neyther when they set forth their confessions did the whole . ca●holick church consent : and if you speak of ●●e consent and approba●●on of a particular church / so also was our confession publyshed but they wrote dissenting from the church of rome and the like / being moved of conscience . and the very same thing have we lykewise done / dissenting from a daughter of the romysh church / touching her leitourgy / hierarchy / constitution to wit the church of england . yet they thus wryting neyther wrote ag●inst order , nor sifted the soares of the church against the law of charity . no●no● we neythre and touching : he dissention not conceale , what need we wryte otherwise then as before we have done ? it is with the church of englād / that we had and still have to deale in this behalf : and that difference we did by name and vnder certayn h●ad●● particularly relate : as both the thing it self and our exile did necessarily require . now although in some thinges we ▪ differ from the ministers of these churches / yet were they not before they despise admonition to be dealt with in lyke sorte . else you might indeed some what rightly vrge order and the lawe of c●●rity , if their names and pe●uliar descriptiō of that differēce had bē by vs particvlarly specifyed in that book . nevertheles whosoever know and consider the practise of these ●hurches ( and of such only we speak ) they may by that practise and our confess●on cōpared together pe●ceive there is difference betwene them and vs yea we know that some have so observed . otherwyse if it be as you pretend that in our confession you see not a●y token whereby you may ▪ ●e● certainly perswaded there of ▪ how is it t●at in so great agreement they should by so many be judged as true churches in the right fayth we as hereticks ? besydes that even by this you do also grannt that you see not but they consent in one with vs / touching the corruptions of the church of england , and our separation from them : seing he that hath but half an eye man there see these most playnly propounded . in which behalf we give thancks both to you / and to god that hath brought you to give this judgment and testimony , for this is the very thing wherein we desyred your opinion . and by this appeareth also how needfull it was for vs to set forth the confession of our fayth / as now we have done in respect of the church of england with which we have to doe and from which for that we dissent / we are accused as hereticks and schismaticks / yll reported of and dryven into crile . touchinge the end , fact , and event , they being all in our former letters discussed / we will now speake no more of them agayne : save this only / that in the preface besydes other thinges we noted this / that we therfore publyshed the confession of our fayth / to the end the truth of god ( what lay in vs ) might be cleared from reproch of men / and that others might be brought together with our selves to the same knowledg and fellowship of the gospell . of the lyke wrytings and acts of others / approved by all the godly we need say nothing . neyther will we speake more of the many and grievous afflictions which for this fayth now a long tyme we have susteyned . only we will mention ( because you do thus vrge vs agayne ) a litle booke wrytten by your self of your owne lyfe . in which you relate many troubles and afflictions which heretofore you have suffered for religiō sake / being pursued by the enemyes of christ and his truth . now if any should obiect against you / that many godly men knew not these things concerning you ) neyther should yet have knowen them if you ●ad held your peace , that you have given place , and have passed ouer into another court , that former injuryes , if any have bene , should by your self be borne in silence and hope , be forgiven by christiā charity , to those from whom you received them , and hid from others by christian wisdome , that there is no feare , least by so doing you should be burst , that every one should rather approve him self and his cause ▪ by dueryes of piety , and charity , then by outcryes and publyshing of wrytings , that the adversaries are no● by this meanes made better , but more provoked by such a grievous sting : that you might , if so be you knew the thing so well , have the judgment of it with yo●r self , and not publysh it abroade , that you should not take vp burth●ens of accusations , nor have judiciall confidence , that it is a point of wisdome , to look to the event : that rash and heady judgments are not to be required , not to be endured , not to be heard , &c. if any ( we say ) should object these thinges against you which you do against vs : would you not think it were vnjustly done of thē ? why then do you that to others / which you would not have done to your self ? why vrge you these thinges so vnjustly against this church of christ and all the members of it ▪ which hath suffered mo afflictions of all sortes / mo reproches imprisonments / losses / banishments deathes / then your self and divers other good men ( yea though your troubles were tē tymes doubled ) whose particular storyes notwithstanding are wrytten / publyshed / and approved . but we will let these thinges passe : for neyther do we lyke this course of aunting / disdayning wynding away from the point in hand so often used by you in your letters vnworthely : neyther do we deny but your aflictions were as you have related / heavy and to be lamented which also / if you contynew fayth full to the end / the captaine of our faith and beholder of our warfare will abundantly reward in the heavens even iesus christ / to whome we commytt and commend this whole cause : the conclusion also hath ben debated before / and now what others think of our cause we referre to themselues eyther by silence to be insinuated / or other wise ( as they think best ) to be expressed . in the meane tyme we cannot omit m bezaes modest and yet confident judgment : whose supposition , because it is , knowne to be of things most true and certa●ne / it is all one as if it had b●n simply propounded . and thus to collect we are perswaded is neyther to deale ●ll with good men / neyther hath god , reason or the tymes ever taught it to be daungerous . nay , this rather do all these teach vs to be full of daunger whē as men are content to wink at the defection and remnants of antichrist / and do not so much as by way of sup●osition beare witnes to the truth of christ against them / being called into● question . and here ( if you please ) ponder with your self the first originall of that antichrist his growth his exaltation ▪ which beza considering / judged 〈…〉 daungerous / as in the same epistle he professeth / that it putteth him ingreat ho●rour and feare , as often as he thinketh of these things , and foreseeth the same or indeed more grievous punishments to hang over the heads of many people who at first did gladly re●ive the go●pell / ●to which now by litle and litle they fall away . as touchinge our selves we are not then who eyther can or will prescribe la●es vnto others . we are of al men the meanest and weakest . and this w● do freely and syncerely professe : and by all meanes we desyre to absteyne from to much confidence and to follow after an holy modesty . and now of you ( learned sr. ) and of other lyke godly learned / strong / discreet men / we desyre to be instructed and informed yea to be brought agayne into the way / if any where we be found to erre in our fayth and cause . this also do those three things which according to god and vnder him ought to be a law to all men / verity , charity , and discretion instantly call for at your handes . in which respect we exhort / pray / and beseech you by the most sacred name of christ that you come to help the lord among the mighty . religious feare ( which in all and every where is commendable ) will nothing hinder this day it will further rather : whiles we cōsider that we are so to feare least we offend / as we do still remember withall / that god hath not gyven vs the spirit of fearefulnes / but of strength and love / and soundnes of mynde : that we should not be ashamed of the testimony of our lord / neyther of them that be his prisoners exiles / witnesses . 2 tim. 1.7.8 . pardon ( we pray you ) that we wryte thus freely vnto you . the regard of the truth and love of you wringeth it from vs. for we are studious of the truth of god / and also of your name and estimation . if there be any thing wherein we may be serviceable vnto you without hinderance of the truth and love / you shall commaund vs. and we trust you will require nothing of vs otherwise . farewell in christ iesus : to whome we do hartely commend your holy and profitable labours and studyes . amsterdam : the 18 , of march 1599. yours with entier affection in the lord : the brethren of the english church at amsterdam / exiles of iesus christ . another letter of the same church to mr. francis iunius , wherin their second aforesaid was included and sent vnto him . here included ( learned sir ) we send the answer to your second letter ( longe synce delyvered vs ) which we wrote the day after we had received yours : not afterward thought we needed not send it ( vnles some other occasion were offered ) both because your self intimated as if you would be silent / if we wrote agayne / and because in very deed you did in those letters yeeld vs the cause and answered nothing at all to any purpose / eyther touching our confession of faith which was publyshed / or touching our former letters / which we sent vnto you thereabout . of all which things / now let the reader judge . if you aske / why we chaunged our purpose / and have now sent you this letter / which was wrytten so longe synce : ●o here this litle booke included withall / to witt / your letters trāslated into english and set forth in print . wherevpon we are constreyned / not only to send these wrytten vnto you / but to set them forth in publyck also in the english tounge . yet let nothing here offend you : for it is we / if any / that are injuried yea and the truth it self : inasmuch as your first letter was publyshed alone / without our answer which you receyved from vs. by whose fault / to what end / with what equitie / mynd you well . sure that priest which trāslated yours / wryteth in his preface ( how truly you know ) that your self delyvered the copy of your first letter to a worshipfull knight / of whō he receved it / and turning it into english imprinted it , yet have we not hitherto gyvē vnto any so much as a copy eyther of yours or our owne : providing ( what we could ) for your credyt / ye so / as we neglected our owne our selves / and were traduced by others / as now by this book publyshed will appeare vnto all . but perhaps in this matter you purposed one thing / he another . whatsoever it were / now you cannot but see / how the prelats and priests of our countrey do so interpret your letters / as if they had bene wrytten against the truth of the gospell of christ / which we professe / and for defence of the antichristian apostasy and tyranny / wherein they persist . which thing we leave vnto you / to be weighed seriously before the lord. neyther is it to be omitted / that your private letters are set forth in publyck : yours ( we say ) who took it so yll that the cōfession of fayth of this whole church should be made publyck : whom these very letters of yours wrote so much of the publyck view , of publishing the woundes of the church , vndiscreetly , before so many deadly enemyes of god and the church : of not offending any one of christs disciples of not provoking churches : of every one abounding in their owne sence , &c. it is marvell if your translatour turne not your owne wordes vpon your self and tell you / that a christian an humble and godly mind ought to be otherwise affected , and setting a side the respect of their owne pryvate regard . &c. but this the more vnjustly if he made your letters publyck without your knowledg . which we indeed at first did suspect : tyll we saw your second epistle come forth some while after the other . neyther could we well thinke other wise of the matter / specially seing you wrote vnto vs / that we might rent the letters , and that you also would conceale it . knowe moreover / that in the edition of your letters / there be certeyne clauses wherin the translation is not answerable to yours in latine sent vnto vs : which we by your originall amend in our edition nowe ready to be published . these ( and many other things which yet we conceale ) seem vnto vs to be of some moment . but we are deceived perhaps in our owne cause : and therfore you and your translatour would / omytting all cōfutation / that others should have the iudgment therof : you in delyvering / he in publyshing your letters . but why then did you not douchsafe to give vs any knowledg therof ? at least / why did you not so provide as that letter of ours which was in your handes / should also be translated and published ? did you thinck that * he which is first in his owne cause is iust ? why then did you not also mynd / that his neighbour comyng after him will make inquiry of him , that so both partyes being heard / judgment may be gyven according to truth and equity ? for which cause / though we have hytherto borne this / yet will we hereafter meet with such dealing by the best and fyttest meanes we can . neither doubt we / but all these things ( howsoever now they stand ) will at length fall out for good both to vs and to all other / which love christ with all his ordinances / and hate antichrist with all his abhominations . and having this hope / we will expect and endure whatsoever it shall please god / who is the lord and faythfull maynteyner of his servants . concerning the differences ( wherof you write agayne in your letters ) which are betwene vs and the dutch church of this city / it needeth not that we wryte vnto non of the particulars otherwise then as before we have donne . if you do yet desyre more we give you to vnderstand that above a yeare synce we delyvered in wryting the true and particular narration of the whole matter / to the ministers and whole eldership of that church : who ( if yet they have not ) ma● now communicate it with you . by it also will appeare / that we have donne what was our duty and as brotherly as we could . if not / let the errour be shewed and it shal be corrected god willing . in the meane tyme / because we are both pryvatly and publyckly so much vrged by you herevnto / we will briefely note the chief heades / wherin we differ from them / and where about we have had dealing with them / both before and synce you wrote vnto vs. they are these which follow : 1. the estate of the dutch church at amsterdam : is so confused as the whole church can never come together i● one : the ministers can never together with the flock sanctify the lords ●a●e the p●esence of the members of the church cannot certeynly be knowen : and fynally no publyck action whe●her ex●ommunication or any other can rigg●ip be performed . vvhich is cotrary to these scriptures , 1. cor. 12.27 . and 11.20 , 23. math. 18 , ●7 . with 1. cor. 5 , 4. act. ● . 2.5 . numb . 8.9 , act. 20 , 28. 2. they baptize the seed of them who a●e not members of any visible church of whom moreover they have not care as of membe●s / neyther admytt their parents to the lords supper . gen. 17 , 7.9.10.11 . 1. cor. 7 , 14. exod. 12.48 . with 2. caron 30 ▪ 6. &c. numb . 9.13 . hos . 2 , ● , 4. with rev. 17.1 . ezech 16 , 59 , &c. 3. in the publyck worship of god / they have devysed and vse an other forme of prayer besydes that which christ our lord hath prescribed mat. 6. reading out of a book certayne prayers invented and imposed by man. exod. 20 , 4 , 5. and 30 , 9. with psal . 141.2 . and rev. 8 , 3. lev. 10 , 1. esa . 29 , 14. with mat. 15.9 . rom. 8 , 26. eph. 4.8 . 1. pet. 2 , 5. 4. that rule and commandement of christ / mat. 18 , 15 , 16 , 17. they neyther observe nor suffer rightly to be observed among them . 5. they worship god in the idol temples of antichrist . exod. 20.4 . with deut. 12 , 2 , 3. 2. king. 10 , 26 ▪ 27 , 28. and 18 , 4. act. 17 , 23. rev. 18 , 11 , 12 , &c 6 the ministers have their set mayntenance after another manner then christ hath ordeyned / 1. cor 9 , 14. and that also such / as by which any ministery at all / whether popish or other whatsoever might be maynteyned . 7. their elders chaunge yearly / and do not continew in their office according to the doctrine of the apostles and practise of the primitive churches rom. 12 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. 1. cor. 12 , 11 , 12 , &c act 20.17.28 . 1. pet. 5.1 . / 2.3 4 see also ▪ numb . 8.24 . &c. 8. they celebrate mariage in the church / as if it were a part of the ecclesiasticall administration / wheras it is in the nature of it merely civill . ruth . 4. chap. 9. they vse a new censure of suspension , which christ hath not appointed . mat. 28.20 . gal. 3.15 . 2. tim. 3.16 17. 10. they observe dayes and tymes consecrating certeyn dayes in the yeare to the nativity , resurrection , ascension of christ etc. exod. 20. commaundement / 2. and 4. rev. 1.10 . 1 cor. 1● . 1.4.2 . act 20.7 . col. 2 16.17 . esa . 66 , 23. gal 10.11 . 11 they recei●e vnrepētant excommunicates to be membres of their church : which by this meanes becometh one body with such as be delivered vnto sathā . 1. cor. 5.5 1. tim. 1.20 . these ( among other ) are the corruptions of the church aforesaid : which they are neyther able to defend nor willing to forsake . herein therfore we differ from them as they which knowe this estate of theirs may perceive by our confession compared with their errours noted before : which the lord give them to see and mynd . and for your self ( good sir ) take you heed in godlynes ▪ that in this cause you do not in any respect with hold the duty which you ow vnto them / or defence which you ow vnto the truth . so let god almighty also love you / and christ our saviour be mercifull vnto you . and this you may do truly / godlye / brotherly / wisely with great profit to vs and the church of christ every where ▪ therfore we exhort and beseech you in the lord that you be carefull alwayes to help ( no way to hurt / the church and cause of christ ) by your studyes endev●urs / labours : which being thus directed the lord iesus blesse to the glory of his name / and your owne comfort for ever . amen . amsterdam . the first day of the seventh moneth called iuly . 1602. yours in christ by whose grace we witnesse the truth of his gospell● against the will worship and remnants of antichrist what soever : francis ●ohnson . stanshall mercer . david bres●o . henry ainsworth . c●ristoph●r boman . daniel studley . thomas bishop . with the rest of the brethren of the english church now living as straungers at amsterdam . a third letter , written by mr. iunius , vpon receipt of the ▪ last aforesaid , and of his tvvo former imprinted before in england , and therevpon by vs sent vnto him included withall . to his beloved brethren in christ the english people at amsterdam . salutations in christ . an huge bundell of letters , beloved brethren , i received from you yesterday in the evening . i gave you counsell to rest from questiōs : you commaund me to enter into questions . i continew still in my purpose : for i esteem more of peace in the church then of the seeds of strife : they that are fedde with these seeds , shall reap the fruit . where you conclude and pronounce that i do therefore assent vnto you , it is a false conclusion : as towching the matter i have enjoyned my self silence : and although i be an hundred tymes called vpon by letters , i will continew still in the argument of counsell till i see another course taken . if it like you not , let it alone : neyther do i like the handling of questions in this tyme. it is more according to god that i be silent from questions in this estate of things , then that i powre forth my self and you together into them . you move many things in your letters , i wil rest frō those things , and will occupy my self religiously in the work of the lord. christian wisdome will never suffer me to speak of questiōs controverted , the one party being vnheard . that my letters vnto you , were translated into english , i have now first knowen it by you : i knew not that it was done . you object that my letters were not shewed by you . i beleev it : for both by letters and reports of many i have ben certifyed that they were not shewed . if it please you , shew them , for me you may . all shall see , how false reports have ben given forth concerning thē . i neyther am ashamed of them , neyther ever will be . but i pitty you ( i speak it vnfeynedly ) who for my letters give forth in publick your conclusions . with good men good dealing should be used . that the copyes of my letters were carryed into england , your selves may easily cōjecture , by what meanes it came to passe . about tē moneths synce , the soveraign quenes ambassadour was there and two of your company dined with him . what hapned at that dinner you can remember . he came hither vnto me : he marveled at the fact of your departure : i told him that i had writtē vnto you , he desired a copy . to you i gave counsell : whosoever gave it forth in publick , hath done it without my knouwledg : i will not answer for an others doing , but for myne owne . in the meane while i will pray god that he frame your mynds vnto the truth , wisdome , love , and peace , and all our mynds vnto his glory . farewell in the lord. from leyden in holland . the 16. day of iuly . 1602. yours vnfeynedly , fr. iunius . the answer to mr. iunius his third letter . to the reverend and our beloued brother in christ mr. fr. iunius at leyden in holland . grace and peace in iesus christ . your third and very brief letter ( beloved sir ) we received this last week . they were your letters imprinted and included that made the ●uge bundell , if so it were . it is not well said of you / that terme the confession of christian faith and defēce of publishing it to be questiōs and se●ds of strife , nor that you say we cōman● you to enter into questions . for the conclus●on , whether it be true or false / now let others judge which shall see your letters together with ours . towching the matter , you have enjoyned your self silence . yea and towching the maner and other things also where you can fynd no answer neyther . yet for the matter it self if so be that with the papists anabaptists or any the like we did erre frō the true faith ▪ we doubt not but you would open your mouth to answer / to refute / to convince . but because in our faith you can shew no errour / and yet in this tyme and estate of things like not ●o stand for vs and this cause it is safest to be silent . wisely done in deed but not according to god / who denoūcing by the prophet hath said / cursed be he that doth the worck of the lord fraudulētly , and cursed be he that kepeth back his sword from bloo● : on the contrary / blessed be he that shall reward thee , as thou hast rewarded vs o daughter of babel to be destroyed : blessed be he that shall take and scattering dash thy children against the stones . if this against moab and the materiall babylō how much more against antichrist and the spirituall babylon with al the daughters and abominatiōs thereof ? if this against the shadow and type how much more against the substance and body it self ? of the argument of co●nsell ynough is said . if you repeat it a thousand tymes / and yet take not away our answer and reasons alledged in our first letters / we will alwayes repeat the same answer againe . those many things which are conteyned in your letters and ours do now come forth in publick . neyther doubt we but this is the work of the lord. see therefore that you be occupied therein religiously . that any should speak of things controverted , we desier not otherwise then the reformed churches and those godly mē and martyrs of iesus who with like purpose have published their confessions of faith and causes of their troubles being so constreyned . that your letters were not shewed by vs , we wrote not but this that we gave not a copy of them to any : for what cause / we wrote in our former . shewed they were and read in the publick meeting of our church if your mynd were to have them shewed to others that knew we not . but now that you write this is your mynd / we shall shew them together with ours publickly vnto all and if any have givē forth any false reports con●erning them , let thē now be ashamed . in the meane time your self provided by sending yours at first vnsealed / that they should be shewed to others and be read also of others before vs. neyther doth it excuse the matter / which you wrote in your second , that ●●e messenger shewed you not to w●ōer whither you should have written , and that therefore you sought and wayted an whole moneth , being vncertayne thereof . for we did signify both these expressely / in the epistle dedicatory prefixed before that book which by the messenger was delivered vnto you . els how knew you at the moneths end more thē before whither and to whō to send ? or when you knew / why did you not seale your letters ? was it because you would have the shewed ? we beleev it : as also that for the same cause / the copyes of thē were caryed into england . and this too we knew / before they were translated in english : but we held our peace / wayting to see what would follow therevpon . now your self see they are translated and given forth in publick . for them therefore and with them / we trāslate and publish ours : by which will appeare that we have dealt well with good men . you may call them as you please : it skilleth vs litle : this is the very thing we desier and endevour / that the simplicity of the gospell of christ / the iniquity of the defectiō of antichrist / may more and more be made knowen vnto all . if for this thing you pity vs , we will beare it : praying that god in christ would pitty you . where you write / that two of our company dined with that honorable ambassadour / it is not true / that we know of . neyther can we cell / what hapned at that dinner . he sent not for vs to come vnto him / neyther did we like to intrude our selves . if by vs he would have ben certifyed of our cause / we would have done it willingly and syncerely . and you also / when he demaunded of you / might have shewed our letters with your owne / and the cōfession of our faith / and given also copyes of both the letters . so might the translatour have given forth both in publick . so had you provided / that sentence should not be given / the one party being vnheard . which thing christian wisdome , your self say , suffreth not ●o be done in questions controverted . in this behalf therfore you have erred / and this by you is to be answered : notwithstāding that for his doing / himself is to answer / that translated and published yours without your knowledg . for our selves / if any where we erre / shew it ( we pray you agayne and agayne ) by the word of god / that is / by the onely rule of truth / and we shal yeeld most willingly . and thus we pray god that he would guyde you together with vs and all his alway vnto iesus christ / and that he would keep vs in him / who onely is the way , the truth , and the life . whose name be blessed for ever . amen . amsterdam . iuly . 21. 1602. yours in the truth and peace of the gospell of christ : f. io. h. ains . d. st. s. mer. c. bom. t. bis . d. bre. together with the other brethren of the english church at amsterdam . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a20920-e130 * for proof herof see mr. iunius owne words noted in the margine of his letter herafter folowing , and compare also this edition of it , with the translators before published . notes for div a20920-e600 act. 28 , 22 b rev. 12. c psal . 105 , 13 , 14. d 1 pet ▪ 2.9 . e psal . 46.1 . f apoc. 2 , 5. gap 2 cor 6 , 14 , 15 , &c. psal 9● , 20. 2 thes . 2 , 3. h psa . 37 , 27 ier. 51 , 6. rev. 18 , 4. & 14 , 1. neh. 6 , 6.7.8 . harmon of confess . i 1 pet. 2 , 5. ier. 51 , 26 k act. 2 , 38 40 , 41 & 8 , 36 , 37 & 15 9. ioh. 10 , 3.4 5. esa . 35 , 8.9 l ioh. 15 , 2.5 mat ●8 , 15 , 17 lev. 13 , 46. numb , 4.13 m ioh 15 , 19. and 17.14 , 16. mat. 3 , 12 lev. 20.24 26. 1. ioh. 4.5.6 about forty ecclesiastical popish offices are at this daye in the churche of englād never a one appointed by christ in his testament . apoc. 13. vvith what words & rites , in what habit & gesture , these things are to be done , they are taught in their rub●ik some of them in certaine english books se● forth , have reckned aboue 100. popish corruptions yet reteyned in this church . o rom. 12 1. cor. 12. eph. 4. p iohn . 4 , 24 mat 15 , 9 q deu 6 , 4 , 5 mat. 16 , 6 2. cor. 6 , 14 15 psal 106 , 34 35.36 . s iude : ver . 3 t 2 cor. 6 , 17. u eph. 5 , 11. w reb. 18 , 4 & 14 , 10 , 11. mat. 6 , 24. x 2. king. 16 , 10 , 11 , 12. apoc , 13 , 12 14 , 15. y ier. 51 , 6. mich. 2 , 10. rev. 18 , 4. 2 cor. 6 , 17. act. 2 , 40. z ps . 9.12 ▪ heb. 13 , 3 ▪ a gal. 4.4.5 6. & 5.1.2 . heb. 8. & 9 & 10. chap. 2 cor. 4 , 7 iam. 2 , 1 notes for div a20920-e1370 * deut. 6.4 . 1. tim 2.5 . ephe. 4.4.5.6 . 1 cor. 8.6 . & 12.4.5.6.13 . ier. 6.16 . ioh. 14.6 . ‡ 1 tim. 6.3.13.14 . mat. 15.9 . & 28.20 . deut. 4.2.6 . & 12.32 . 1 cor . 4.17 . & 14.33 . 2 tim. 3.15.16.17 . gal. 1.8.9 . re●el . 22.18.19 . * ioh. 4.24 . ‡ exod. 3.14 . rom. 11.36 . act. 17.28 . ☽ 1 tim. 1.17 . esa . 6.3 & 66.1.2 . 1 ioh. 5.7 . mat. 28.19 . prou. 8.22 . heb. 1.3 . phil. 2.6 . 1 cor. 8.6 . micah . 5.2 . psal . 2.7 . gal. 4.6 . ioh. 1.1.2.18 . & 10.30.38 . & 15.26 . heb. ● . 14 . * ioh. 4.24 . * ioh. 4.24 . ‡ exod. 3.14 . rom. 11.36 . act. 17.28 . ☽ 1 tim. 1.17 . esa . 6.3 & 66.1.2 . 1 ioh. 5.7 . mat. 28.19 . prou. 8.22 . heb. 1.3 . phil. 2.6 . 1 cor. 8.6 . micah . 5.2 . psal . 2.7 . gal 4.6 . ioh. 1.1.2.18 . & 10.30.38 . & 15.26 . heb. ● . 14 . ‡ esa . 46.10 . rom. 11.34.35.36 . gen. 45.5.6.7.8 . mat. 10.29.30 . eph. 1.11 ‡ esa . 46.10 . rom. 11.34.35.36 . gen. 45.5.6.7.8 . mat. 10.29.30 . eph. 1.11 * ep● . 1.3.4.5.6.7.10.11 . mat. 25.34 2 tim. 1.9 . act. 13.48 . 1 tim 5.21 . col. 1.14.17.18.19.20 . & 2.10 . ioh. 1.6 . rev. 19.10 . 1 t●es . 5.9 . rom. 8.29.30 . ●● . 23 . ●ud . ver . 4 & 6. rom. 9.11.12.13.17 18.22 . with exod. 9.16 . mal. 1.3 . mat. 25 41. iob. 4.18 . 2 pet. 2.4.12 . 1 pet. 2.8 . ioh. 3.19 . rom. 2.5 . prov. 16.4 . ‡ esa . 46.10 . rom. 11.34.35.36 . gen. 45.5.6.7.8 . mat. 10.29.30 . eph. 1.11 * gen. 1. chap. col. 1.16 . heb. 11.3 . esa . 45.12 . rev. 4 11. ‡ gen. 1. 26.27 . eph. 4.24 . col. 3. to . eccle. 7.31 . * gen. 3.1.4.5 . 2 cor. 11.3 . 2 pet. 2 , 4. iud. ver . 6. ioh. 8.44 . * gen. 3.1.2.3.6 . 1 tim. 2.14 eccle. 7.31 . gal. 3.22 . ‡ rom. 5.12.18.19 . & 6.23 . with gen. 2.17 . ‡ rom. 5.14 . & 9 11. † rom. 5.12.18.19 . & 6.23 . with gen. 2.17 . * gen. 5.3 . & 6.5 . psal . 51 , 5. eph. 2.3 . rom. 5.12 . deut. 27.26 . & 28.15 . &c. * gen. 3.15 . eph. 1.3 . — 7. & 2.4 . — 9. 1 thes . 5.9 . 1 pet. 1.2.3.4.5 . gen. 15 6. with rom. 4.2 3.4.5.6.22.23.24.25 . act. 13.38.39.48 . rom. 3.24 25.26 . 1 tim. 1.9 . phil. 3.8.9.10.11 . ‡ 1 cor. 1.30.31 2 cor. 5.21 . ier. 23.5.6 . & 9.23.24 * ioh. 17.3 heb 5.9 ▪ ier. 23.5.6 . ‡ 2 thes . 1. ● . ioh. 3.36 . zep. 1.6 ioh. 5. ●9 . 2 tim. 3.15.16.17 . deut. 4.2.5.6 . gen. 6.22 . exod. 20.45 6 & ●9 . 42.43 . 1 chro. 28.19 . psal . 119. in the whole psal , esa . 8.19.20 . & 29.13 . math. 15.9 . col. 2.8.18.23 . luc. 16.29.30.31 . gal. 1.8 9. ● . petr. 1.16.19 . & 3.2 . reve. 22 ▪ 18.19 deu. 18.18 . act. 3.22.23 . heb. 1.1.2 . & through the epistle . ioh. 1 ▪ 1.14 18. & 12 49.50 . & 15.15 , & 20.31 . pro. 8.8.9 . & 30.5.6.2 . tim. 3.15.16.17 , 2. cor. 1.20 . genes 3.15 . & 22.28 , & 49.10 , dan. 7.13 , & 9.24.25.26 , ier , 23 ▪ 5.6 . psal . 2.2.6.7.12 . & 16.10 . & 110. with luk , 24 44 , ioh. 5.46 . act. 10.42.43 . & 13.35 . &c & 17.3 . ‡ prouer : 8.22 . mich. 5.2 , ioh , 1.1.2.3 . & . 12.37 . — 41 , with esa . 6 . 1● 10 & with ▪ act. 28.25 . heb. 1 , cap col , 1 . 1● , 16 , 17. & 2.9 . † gal. 4.4 . gen. 3.15 . * heb. 7.14 . reve. 5.5 . with gen , 49.9 , 10. * rom. 1.3 . & 9.5 . gen. 22 18. gal. 3.16 . mat , 1.1 . &c. luk : 3 ▪ 23 : & c : esa : 7 : 14 : luk : 1 : 26 : and c : heb. 2.16 . † heb. 4 15. es . 53.3 4.9 . phil. 2.7.8 . 1 tim. 2 5. heb. 9.15 . and. 13.20 . d●n . 9.24.25 . ioh. 14 6. act. 4.12 , ● heb. 1.2 . & 3.1.2 . ● . & 7 , 24 & 12.24 . — 28 , psal . 110.1.2.4 . & 45 deu. 18.15 : 18 : esa : 9 : 6 : 7 : act : 5.31 : esa . 55 : 4 : dan : 7 : 13 14. luk. 1.32.33 . * pro. 8.23 . esa . 42.6 . and 49.1.5 . heb. 5.5.6 . † esa . 11.2.3.4 5. and 61.1.2.3 . with . luk. 4.17.22 . act. 10.38 . ioh. 1.14.16 , and 3.34 . 1 tim . 2.5 . heb. 7.24 . dan. 7.14 . act. 4.12 . esa . 43.11 . luk. 1 , 33. ioh. 14.6 . † mat. 7.15.16 . and 24.23.24 . 2 pet. 2 chap. 2 tim . 4.3.4 . rom. 10.14.15 . and 16.17 . 1 tim . 6.3.4.5 . ier. 23.21 . ioh. 10.1 — 5. rev. 9.3 . &c. * ioh. 1.18 . & 12.49.50 . and 15.15 . and 17.8 . deut. 18.15.18.19 . act. 22.23.24 . mat. 17.5 . eph. 1.8.9.2 . tim . 3.15.16.17 . ‡ pro. 9.3 . ioh. 13.20 . luk. 10.16 . mat. 10.40.41 . and 28.18.20 . deut. 33 8.10 . * ioh. 1.18 . & 12.49.50 . and 15.15 . and 17.8 . deut. 18.15.18.19 . act. 22.23.24 . mat. 17.5 . eph. 1.8.9.2 . tim . 3.15.16.17 . † mat. 7.15.16 . and 24.23.24 . 2 pet. 2 chap. 2 tim . 4.3.4 . rom. 10.14.15 . and 16.17 . 1 tim . 6.3.4.5 . ier. 23.21 . ioh. 10.1 — 5. rev. 9.3 . &c. * ioh. 17.19 . heb. 5.7.8.9 . and 9.26 . esa . 53. chap. rom. 5.19 . 1 pet. 1.2.19 . ephe. 5.2 . col. 1 20. ′ ephe. 2.14.15.16 . dan. 9.24.27 , heb 9. and 10. chap. rom. 8.34 . heb. 4 , 14 , 16. and 7.25 . ‡ 1 pet , 2.5 . * revel . 1.5.6 . & 8.3 , 4. rom. 12.1 , 12. mar , 9.49.50 . mal , 1.14 . ioh. 4.23.24 . mar , 7.6.7.8 . esa . 1 , 12. &c. * 1 cor. 15.4 . et c. 1 pet. 3.21.22 . mat. 28.18.19.20 . psal . 2.6 . act. 5.30.31 . ioh. 19.36 . revel . 19.16 . rom. 14.17 . ‡ iosh . 5.14 . zach. 1.8 . &c. mar. 1.27 . heb. 1.14 . ioh. 16.7 . — 15. eph. 5.26.27 . rom. 5. & 6. & 7 , & 8 , chap. and 14.17 . gal. 5.22 , 23. 1 ioh. 4.13 . & c. * ioh. 13.1 . and 10 , 28.29 . and 14 ▪ 16.17 . and 16.31.32 . with luke . 22.31.32.40 ▪ rom. 11.29 . psal . 51.10.11.12 . & 89.30 . — 34. iob. 33.29.30 . esa . 54.8.9.10 . † 2 cor. 12 7.8.9 . ephes . 6.10 . & c. gal. 5.17.22.23 . iob. 1.6 . and 2. chap. 1 king. 22.19 ▪ esa . 10.5.15 rom. 1 ●1 . & 2 , 4 5.6 . and 9.17.18 . eph. 4.17.18.19 . esa . 57.20.21 . 2 pet. 2 chap. 1 cor. 15.24.28 . dan. 12.2.3 . ioh. 5.22 28.19 . heb. 9.28 . 2 the. 1 ▪ 9.10 , mat 13.41.49 . et 25 , 31. 1 thes . 4.15.16.17 . ioh. 17.21.26 . 1 cor. 15.28 . * ioh. 18.36 . 1 tim. ● . 15 . heb. 3.6.9 & 10.21 . zach. 4.7 . act. 20. ●8 . t it 2.14 . ‡ mat. 3.25.47 . & 21 . 1● . luk. 13.25.2 tim. 2.20 . ● mat , 16.15 , 16. co● , 1 , 11 , 1 cor , 6.11 , t● . 3 , 3 , 4 , 5. * psa , 52 , 11 , ezra , 6 , 21. act , 2 , 40. & 17 , 3 , 4 , & 19 , 9 , 2 cor , 6 , 14 , — 18 , 1 pit. 2 , 4 , 5 , 9 , 25 , * ephe , 4 . 1● , 16 , esa , 60 , 4 , 8. psal , 110 , 3 , act , 2 , 41 , col , 2 , 5 , 6 , ‡ esa , ●9 , ●1 , & 62 , 6. 1 ioh. 2 , 2● , ephe , 4.7 , 8 , 11 , 12 , ier , 3 , 15 , ezek , ●4 , chap , zach , 11 , 8 , heb. 11.28 , 1● , mat , 23 , 20 , 1 tim , 6 , 1● , 14 , † mat , 7 , ●● , & 24.23 , 24. 2 〈◊〉 4 , 3.4 , ier , ● , 3● , 22 , & 23.21 , d●ut , ●● , 3● , revel , 2.2 , & 22 , 18 , 19. * lev 26 , 11 , 12 , mat , 28 , 18.19 , 20 , rom , 9 , 4 , esa , 59 , 20 , 21 , ezek , 48.35 , 2 cor , 6 , 18 , ‡ esa . 8 , 16 , 1 tim , 3 , ●5 , & 4 , 16 , & 6 , 3 , 5 , 2 tim , 2 , 15 , tit , 1.9 , deut , 31.26 , † psal . 46 4 , 5. ezek. 47 , 1. &c , ioh. 1.16 , & 7. 38 , 39 , ephe , 4.4 , 7. esa , 11 , 12 , ioh , 3.14 , & 12 , 32 , esa . 49.22 , esa , 55 , ● . mat. 6.33 , & 22 , 2. &c. prov. 9.4 , 5 , ioh , 7 , 37. ‡ deut. 12 : 5 : 11 : esa . 2 : 2 : 3 : & 44.5 : zach. 14.16.17 , 18.19 . act. 2 , 41.47 : heb , 12 : 22 : &c : psal : 87 : 5.6 . song : 4 : 12 : gal : 6 : 10 : col : 1 : 12 : 13. ephe : 2 : 19. * see article 18. afore : & exod. 25 2. & 35.5 . 1 cor . 12.4 , 5.6.7.12.18 , rom , 12.4 , 5 , 6. 1 pet , 4.10 . ephe. 4 , 16 , col , 2.5 , 6 , 19 , ‡ ephe , 4.8 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. rom. 12.7.8 . & 16 , 1. 1 cor 12 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 11 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 28 , act. 6 , ● , 3 , & 14.23 , & 20 , 17 , 28 , phil , 1 , 1 , 1. pet. 5 , 1 , 2 , ● 4 ▪ 1 tim , 3 , chap , & 5 , 3 , 9 , 17 , 21 , with 6 , 13.14 , revel . 22 , 18 , 19 , mat , 28 , 20. ‡ rom. 12.7.8 . ephe. 4.11.12 . with the epist . to tim. and tit. act. 6.3.5.6 . and 14.23 . and 20 . ●● &c. 1 pet. 5.1 ▪ 2.3 . 1 cor . 5.4 . et c. and 9.7 , 9.14 . and 1● . 4 . et c. with heb. 3.2.6 . and prov . 8.8.9 . * heb. 2.3 . and 3.3 . and 12.25 . et c. 1 tim. ● . 14.15 . and 6.13.14 . ● tim. 3.14 . — 17. gal. 1.8.9 . deu. 4.2 . and 12.32 . revel . 22.18.19 . ‡ heb 5.4 . num. 16.5 : 40. and 18.7 . 1 chron . ●6 ▪ 8. ioh. ● . 10.1.2 and 3. ●● . act. 6.3.5.6 . and ●4 . 23 . tit. 2.5 . ier. 2● . 21 . n●m . 8.9.10 . * act. 20.28 . 1 cor. 1. ● . col. 4.17 . 1 tim. ● . 18.19 . and 4.12 . and 5.21 . and 6.11.12.13.14 . 2. tim. 1.13.14 and 3.14 . and 4.5 . 1 pet. 5.1.2.3.4 . rom. 12.7 , 8 , mar , 28 , 20 , 1 cor 4. ●● . and 12 , 4 , 5.6.7 , and 14 , 33 , 36 , and 16.1 , eph , 4 , 10.11.12 , 13 , revel . 1.20 . 1 cor. 3.21 , 22 , 23. mar , 18 , 17 , see besides these , the article 20. before . ‡ act. 6.3.5.6 . & 14.23 . & 15.2.3.22.23 . 2 cor. 8.19 . 1 tim. 3.10 . & 4.14 . & 5.22 . numb . 8.9.10 . 1 cor. 16.3 . † 1 tim. 3.10 . & 5.22 . rom. 16.17 . phil. 3.2 . 1 tim. 6.3.5 . ez● . 44.12.13 . mat. 18.17 . * 1 the● 12.13 . 1 tim. 5.3.17.18 . heb. 13.17 . 1 cor. 9.7 . &c. gal. 6.6 . * psal . 122.3 . act. 2.47 . rom. 16.2 . mat. 18.17 . 1 cor 5.4 . 2 cor. 2.6.7.8 . lev. 20.4.5 . & 24.14 . num. 5.2.3 . deu. 13.9 . ‡ act. 15.2.22 . with 1 cor. 3.5.22 . & 12.20 . & 14.33 . lev. 4. chap. 2 chro. 26.20 . psal . 2.10.11.12 . & 141.5 . & 149.8.9 . act. 11. ● 4. 1 tim. 5.19.20.21 . ‡ mar. 13.34 . ●● . luk. 17.3 . gal. 6.1 . 1 thes . 5.11 . iud. ver . 3.20 heb. 10.24.25 . & 12.15 ●ct 20.17.28 . heb. 13.17.24 . song . 3.3 . esa . 62.6 . ezek. 33.2 . mat. 24.45 . luk. 12.42 . 1 thes . 5.14 . mat. 28.20 ▪ luk. 12.35.36.37.38 . rom. ●6 . 19.20 . deut. 28 1. &c. zach. 2.5 . & 12.2.3.4 . psal . 25 2 & 132.12.13 . &c. mat. 16.18 . 2 thess . 2.3.4.8.9.10.11.12 apoc. 9. and 13. and 17 and 18. cap 1 tim 4.1 , 2.3 . psal 74 esa . 14.13 14. dan , 7 , 25. and 8.10.11.12 and 11.31.2 , pet 2 , cap , 1 ioan. 2.18 : 22. and 4.3 . and 2. ioh. vers● , 7.9 . apoc. 9.3 . &c. and 13.15.16.17 . and 18.15.17 . 2 thes . 2.3.4.8.9 . with rom. 12.7.8 . and with eph. 11.12 . 1 tim. 3.15 . and 5.17 . let this article be confered with the preceden . 1.7.12.13.14.19.20.21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 28 : confer this article with the precedent 1.7.12.13 14 , 19. &c. also revel . 9 ▪ 3. &c and 13 : 11.15.16 17 , and 14.9.10 : 11 and 17.3.4.5 . and 18.15 17 , and 22.18.19 , ioh. 10 , 1. luk. 22.25 , 26. dan. 7.8.25 . and 8.10.11.12 . 2 thes . 2 : 3.4.8.9.1 pet 5 : 3. with ioh. 3.27.29 , with rev. 2 11. reg , 12 : 27. &c. zach. 11.15.16 . esa . 1.12 . and 2● , 13 and 30.22 mar. 7.7.8 gal. 1.8 . &c. and 2.4.5 . col . 2.20.22.23 , 1 tim. 4.1.2 , 3. ezec. 8 , 5. and 13.9 . &c. mica . 2 11 mal. 1 , 8 ▪ 13.14 . 1 cor . 14.34.35 . exo. 20.4.5 , 6.7 . num. 15 39.40 psa , 119.21.113.128 . deut ▪ 12.30 — 32. confer this article with the precedent : see also reu , 18 , 2.3.4 . ● . 1 cor . 14 , ●3 . ier. 15.19 . mal , 1 ▪ 4.6.8 . hos 4.14.15 . rom , 6.16 2 pet. 2 19 lev. ●7 . 1 — 9.1 cor . 10.14.17 , 18.19.20 . 2 cor . 6.14.15.16 , 17 , song . 1.6 , 7. * rev. 18.4 . esa . 48.20 . & 52.11 . ier. 50.8 . & 51.6 ▪ 45. zach. 2.6 . 2 cor. 6.17 . ‡ rev. 17.16 . mat. 22.21 . 2 ch●o . 14.3.4.5 . & 15.8.9 . & 17.6 . 2 king. 23.5 . &c. rom. 13.4 . † rev. 18.4 . zach. 13.2.4.5.6 . & 14.21 . ier. 51.16 . psal . 119.59.60.128 . prov. 5.20 . esa . 8.11.12 . & 35.8 . rev. 18.11 prov. 3.9.10 . psal . 16.3.4 . with exod. 20.4.5 . iudg. 17.3.4.5 . ezec. 16.17.18.19 . 1 cor. 10.19.20.21.22 . with heb. 13.10 . 1 tim. 5.17 . 2 cor. 8.3.4.5 . ‡ luk. 17.37 . phil. 1.5 . ier , 50.4.5 , act. 2 , 41.42 . p●●l . 110 , 3. esa . 44.5 . n●h . 9 : 38 : 2 cor. 9 : 13. with † 1 cor. 1 , 2 , & 12 , 14 . 2● . & 14.23 , & 16 , 1 , act. 14 , 23 , 27 , & 15.3 , 4 , & 16 , 5 , rom , 12 , 5 , m●t. 18 , 17 — 20 , rev , 1 , 20 , & 2 , 1 , 8 , 12 , 18 , & 3 , 1 , 7 ▪ 14 , eph , 2.19 . c●l . 2 , 19. * exod , 20 , 8. with rev , 1.10 . act. 20.7 , 1 cor , 16 , 2. gen. 18.19 . exod. 13.8.14 . pro. 31.26.27 . eph 6 . 4●9 , deut. 6.7 psal . 78.3.4 . * 1 cor. 14 , chap. rom , 12 , 6 , 1 pet , 4 , 10 , 11 , 1 cor , 12.7 . act. 13. 15 , 1 thes . 5 ▪ 20 , ‡ heb. 5.4 . eph , 4.11 , 12. num , 16.10.39 , 40. rom , 12 , 7 , ioh. 1 , 23.25 , 1 cor. 1.14 , 15 ▪ 16 , 17. with chap , 3.5 , 6. * act 6 , 3.5 , 6. & 14.21.22.23 . tit , 1.5 . &c. eph. 4.11.12 . 1 cor. 12.7 , 8.14.15.28 , 1 tim. 3. & 5 , cap. lev. 8 cap. ‡ col . 2.5.6.7 . 2. thes , 2 , 15 , iud. ver , 3. & mat. 28.20 , † act. 2.38 , 39 , with rom. 9.4 . & gen , 17.7.12.27 . rom. 11 , 16. 1 cor. 1.16 . & 7.14 . & 10.2 . psal . 22 30. col 2.11.12 , exod. 12.48.49 , act. 16.15.33 , mar. 10.13.14.15 , 16 , gal. 3.8.29 . ″ 1 cor. 10 , 3 , 4 , 5 , & 11 , 26 , 27 , 28 , 29 , & 12.13 , rom , 2 , 28 , 29 , col. 2.11 , 12 , 13. act , 8 , 13 , 36 , 37.38 , & 15 , 9 , gal , 3 , 27 , rom. 5 , & 6. & 7 , & 8. cap. 1 cor. 1.30.31 . * mat , 26 , 26 , 27 , 1 cor. 11.28 , & 10.3 , 4 , 16.17 , & 1● , 13. act , 2.42 with . 1 , 14 , & 20.7.8 , gal. 3 , 28. ‡ 1 cor. 10 , 16 , 17. & 11.23 24 , 25 , &c , mat. 26 , 26.27.29 . & 15 , 17 , ioh , 12.8 , act , 3.21 , & 7.56 , † gen. 17 11 , ronn , 4 , 11 , exod. 12 , 13 with heb , 13.20 , * mat. 26.26 , 27. 1 cor. 10 , 3 , 4 , 16 , et 11 , 23 , 24.25.26.27.28.29 . reu , 2 , & 3 , cap , act , 15 , 1 , 2 , 1 , cor. 1 , 10 , phil , 2 , 1 — 6 & , 3 , 15 , 16 , heb , 10.25 , iudae , ver , 19 , leu , 4 , 13 , &c , 2 chron. 15.9.17 . & 30 , 18 , 19 , 2 cor , 13 , 1.2 , 1 thes . 5 , 14.2 thes , 3 , 6.14 , mat , 18 , 17 , 1 cor , 5.4 , 5 , ‡ 2 cor . 6.14 : 15.16 . ezra . 4.3 . exod. 12.43 . lev. 22.25 . deut. 7. cap. exod. 34.12 esa . 44.5 . psa . 47.9 and 110.3 . act 19.18.19 . † exod. 20 5.6 . 1 cor. 7 14 : ge. 17 7.12.27 , exod. 12 , 48.49 act. 16.15.33 . eph , 4.4.5 ▪ see also arti. 35. before ● act , 9 ▪ 26.27 and 18.27 . rom. 16.1.2 . 2 cor. 8.23 . col. 4.10 . * 1 cor . 14.23 , 24.25 . psa , 18.49 rom. 15.9.10 . 1 tim , 2.4 . 2 tim. 2.25 . psal . 122.3 cant . 8.8 9 1 cor . 4.17 . and 16 ▪ 1 mat , 28.20 . 1 tim. 3.15 . and 6 13 14 reu 22.18.19 . col . 2.6.19 ād 4.16 act , 15 , cap. see besides the article 1.22 , 33 * ro● . 13 1 2 ▪ 1 pet ▪ 2.13.14 . 2 chron . 19.4 &c and 29. and 34. cap. iud. 17 5.6 . mat ▪ 22 21 , t it 3 ▪ 1. ‡ 2 reg. 23 , 5. &c deu. 12.2.3 . with 17 , 14.18.19.20 ▪ 2 r●● . 10 26.27.28 , 2 chron , 17.6 , psa . 101. pro. 16.12 and 25.2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , act : 19 27 reu 1● 16 and 18 11 12 , &c. † esa 49 23 and 60 ● . 10.11.12 . reu 21.24 deu. 17.14 18 19 20. psalm 2 10 11 12. and 72 1 &c and 101. iosh . 1 , 7.8 . 2 chron 17 4.7 8.9 and 19.4 &c and 29. and 20 capit . dan 6 25.26 esra 7.26 pro 16 10 12 13 and 20 28 and 29 14. esa 10 1.2 1 tim 2 2. 1 pet . 2 13 14 rom. 13 3 4. * act. 9.31 pro 16 15 ezra 5 & 6. cap. 1 tim 2 2. dan. 6 25 26 reu 21 , 24 ‡ act 4 , 18 19 & 5 28.29 . dan. 6.7.8 , 9 , 10.22 . luck 21 , 12.13 . mat 28 , 20 1 tim 5.21 . & 6.13.14 , † psal 20.9 . & 72.1 . 1 tim. 2 , 2. 2 chro . 15.1 . 2 hag. 1 , 1 ▪ 4.14 . & 2.5 psa . 126 1. esa . 49.23 ād 60.16 . psal , 21 & 72. rom. 13.3 1 tim 22.3 4 act. ● . 31 * act. 2.40.41.42 . & 4.19 & 5.28.29.41 & 16.20 &c & 17.6.7 & 20.23.24 . 1 thes . 3 3. phil . 1.27.28.29 dan , 3.16.17.18 . & 6.7.10.22.23.24 luk. 14.26 : 27 and 21.12 13.14 . 2 tim. 2.12 and 3.12 . heb. 10.32 &c 1 pet . 4. cap. reu. 2.10.25.26 and 6.9 and 12.11.17 . ‡ mat , 28.18.19.20 . 1 tim. 6.13.14.15.16 . 2 tim. 4.7 , 8 ▪ . rev. 2 10. and 14.12.13 and 22.16 — 20. rom. 13.1.5.6.7 mat. 22.21 . 1 chron . 27. cap. ezra . 7.26 . neh. 9 , 36 , 37 , tit ▪ ●● . i pe . 2 ▪ 13 , &c. exo 18 . 1● , 20 , 12 &c le ▪ ●9 , 32 , iob , 29 ▪ ● &c with 30 ▪ 1 &c eph. ●●1 — 33 & 6 , 1 — 9 , 1 pet , 5 ▪ 5 , tit , 2. cap. mat , 22.21 , act. 24.14.15.16 , ioh , 5 , 28 , 29 , dan , 12 , 2 , 3. 2 cor , 4 , 17 , 1 tim , 6 , 3.4 , 5. & 2 tim. 1.13 , and 3 , 14.15 , 16 , 17 , mat. 6 , 9-13 luk , 1 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , with mat , 14.30 and 26 , 39.42 , a●● , 1.24 , 25 and 4 , 24 , 30 and 6 , 4 , rom , 8 , 26 , 27 and 15 , 30 , 31 , 32 , 1 pet. 2 , 5 , iam , 1 , 5 , 6 and 5.13 1 tim. 2 , 1 , 2.3 . eph , 6.18 , 19. 1 thess . 5.17 , 18. phil. 4.6 . reu. 8.3.4 . notes for div a20920-e3220 “ m. iunius his words are , propter vicinitatem which r.g. in his translation hath omitted . “ fraterno animo . “ caus●● hau● . “ vt sentio . “ confessionem . “ infestis . “ atque hoc quidē fratres vobis esse constitutum deliberatūq . huc adlaborare consilia vestra , tā sum persuasus , &c. sed quem fin●m in communi habetis , ab eo &c. videmini aberrasse . “ a causa vestra . “ aut academiam hanc . “ cui ego quidē nullū praejudiciū facio , religiose dico coram domino . vt dem ●irisse factā . impotens . “ hoc gravi aculeo . “ qui vbiuis locorum sunt . hac lege . “ res ista vos magis inflamma●●t , prout contentiones magis f●rv● facere solent quò moventur magis . illos magis abaliena●et , quos iniquius abalienatos à vobis esse ob●enditis , &c. “ imprude●●m . “ ipsi opinor , fratres charissimi , animadvertitis , si de antecedentibus illis duobus capitibus nec possum ea lege , nec debeo respōsum dare , id planè iniquū fore si de ea conclusione , &c. “ cui stant . “ quòd jam . &c. “ si consensio est . “ rumpamini . “ odor suavissimus . “ vniversè , vniversally , or , every where notes for div a20920-e3680 eph. 5.11 . reb. 18.6 ▪ 7 ier. 50.14 . mat. 16.3.4 and 23. cap. notes for div a20920-e4880 * nemo vetuit ut solus consilium darem . ″ si non licuit nobis , at nos aequiores erimus erga vos : licet per nos abstinere , literas licet descindere , etiam nobis dissimulaturis . “ de questione . “ vnum mili assumam pro jure meo , silentium , &c. “ qui me confessum dixerit in veritatem impinget sciens . “ religione adducti . “ huc illuc . “ vos 〈◊〉 novistis probe , 〈…〉 vos 〈◊〉 potest●s : se● in vulga id peo 〈◊〉 &c. non potestis . “ ne adhue quidem dicimus . notes for div a20920-e5120 iude ver ▪ ● there 〈◊〉 one conditi●n of a fa●e church ●●other of a 〈…〉 ( though co●rupted ) ●ven till it despise admonition vita d.f. iunij , publyshed in the yeare 1595 bez. epis . 8. notes for div a20920-e5510 * pro. 18 , 1● consider here also your owne ●llegation out of seneca before pag. 35. notes for div a20920-e6370 ●er . 48.10 . psa . 137.8 . ● whether parish congregations be true christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by richard baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, mr. baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, a theological dialogue, or, catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by richard baxter. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 1684 approx. 237 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 71 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2006-06 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a27068 wing b1452 estc r16512 12545784 ocm 12545784 63048 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a27068) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 63048) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 305:13) whether parish congregations be true christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by richard baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, mr. baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, a theological dialogue, or, catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by richard baxter. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 44, 32 p. printed for thomas parkhurst ..., london : 1684. "a short answer to the chief objections in a book entituled a theological dialogue, &c." has separate paging. part 2, page 32 has faded print in the filmed copy. part 2, pages 1-32 photographed from the yale university library copy and inserted at the end. reproduction of original in bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng baxter, richard, 1615-1691. -treatise of episcopacy. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. -mr. baxter's judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies. chauncy, isaac, 1632-1712. -theological dialogue. brownists. protestantism. 2005-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-03 john latta sampled and proofread 2006-03 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion whet●er parish c●●gregations be true christian churches , ●●d the capable consenting incumbents , be truly their pastors , or bishops over their flocks . 〈◊〉 whether the old protestants , conformists , and noncon●●rmists , or the brownists , were in the right herein . and how 〈…〉 our present case is the same . 〈◊〉 by richard baxter , as an explication of some passages in his for●●● writings , especially , his treatise of episcopacy , misunderstood and misapplied by some ; and answering the strongest objections of some of them , especially a book called , r. baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies , as by law required . and another called , a theological dialogue . catholick communion once more defended , upon ●●ns necessitating importunity . by richard baxter london : 〈◊〉 in parkhurst , at the bible and three 〈◊〉 , near mercers chappel . 1684. communion with parish churches vindicated , in answer to a book entituled , the judgment of mr. baxter , against communicating , &c. mistaking my writings . a church is not formally , quid physi●um , but quid morale politicum relativum , a political relative being . ii. the same name signifieth both the genus and species , that are divers by use . iii. the same is true of the name [ pastor . ] iv. diocesan churches are of three sorts . 1. such as have at present but one fixed assembly , but design to gather more hereafter : such , dr. hammond thought they were in scripture times . 2. such as have one diocesan governour , or superintendent over many inferior churches , and their pastors . 3. such as have one only bishop or pastor , having no other true pastor , elder , church-ruler , or presbyter of christs institution under him ; but chappels which have no such ruler or pastor . v. the first sort of diocesans we have now nothing to do with . the second sort is controverible , some holding it sinful , some lawful , and some ( and very many ) to be of divine institution , as successors of the apostles , not in the extraordinaries , but in the ordinary parts of their office : christ having made an imparity ( or a superiority of some over others ) they think that to say without proof , that he changed that order in one age , is 1. to charge him with mutability and levity . 2. and to diminish from his law ( which hath a curse . ) the third sort of diocesans , is either 1. of a diocess ( like a great parish with chappels ) so small that one pastor may possibly oversee it . ( this is tollerable , when more cannot be had ; and when they can , it hurts only ●he well-being of the church ) : or 2. it is of a diocess so great as that one man cannot do what is essential to a pastor , and so it is undone : this nullifieth that species of churches which is of christs institution . vi. a particular church of christs institution of the lowest political order , is , [ a competent number of neighbour-christians , who by christs appointment , and their own exprest consent , are associated with one or more past●● for the right worshipping of god in publick , and the edification of the members , by the exercise of the said pastoral office , and their mutual duties to god , to their pastors , and each others , for the welfare of the society , and the pleasing and glorifying of god. ] vii . the pastoral office as over this first or lowest church , and as it is in unfixed ministers , related yet to no one church more than another , differeth but as the subject matter ( or object ) of their charge doth differ , and not in the fundamental power or order . viii . this pastoral office is essentially ministerial to christ as the prophet , priest , and king of his church . 1. a power to teach . 2. to lead in worship . 3. to guide by the keys of reception , admonition , exclusion and restoration . ix . it is not inconsistent with this pastoral office to be governed by superiors , whether magistrates , or ecclesiasticks ( as others were by apostles , and by timothy , titus , &c. ) therefore every limitation , restraint , rebuke , or punishment , for mal-administration , nullifieth not the office , nor yet allowing an appeal to superiors . x. to hinder a pastor from forcible excluding men from church or sacrament , and allow him only to do it by application of gods word , is agreeable to his office. xi . it is power and obligation to exercise , and not the present actual exercise , that is essential to the office in the fundamental relation : but should the non-exercise be total and stated , it would not make up a church in act ; no more than a mere power to teach , will make a school in act . xii . he that hath the entire power , and statedly exerciseth but one part of it , statedly omitting an essential part , may be in order an empowred minister ; but his society is but a half church : but if it be only an integral part that he omits , it may be a true church , tho faulty ; or if it be an essential part , and not statedly , but only by some present impedition . xiii . the name of church pastor and diocesan , being formally relative in signification , are really divers things , as the fundamentum , relate , correlate , and terminus , are divers . they are therefore considerable . i. as instituted and described by christ . ii. as understood , described and consented to by sound orthodox pastors and people . iii. as described by laws and canons . iv. as esteemed and described by many mistaking bishops , clergy and people , some super-conformists , and some misjudging , that the law saith as they : the word as to these senses is equivocal . xiv . christs institution went before mens corruption ; and is to be held to by all christians , who own him to be the maker and ruler of his own church : and no man hath power to null his institution , nor to warrant 〈◊〉 to make his church another thing . xv. by christs institution every ministerial elder and pastor hath power . 1. to teach the people . 2. to lead them in worship . 3. to receive by baptism , and to communion , or to refuse on just cause ( tho under government ) as aforesaid : ( the whole office i have copiously described in my universal concord , 24. years ago . ) xvi . the parishes that have capable christians and ministers consented to by their sumbmission , are such true churches ; their neighbourhood and christianity making them capable matter . not that a man is of the church , because he is in the parish ( atheists , infidels , sadduces , hereticks and refusers , may dwell there , ( its thought that of 60000. that dwell in one london parish , 10000 communicate not , and so 40000 or 50000 , are not of that church ) but those that are capable consenters , and communicants . xvii . this sort of churches we were in possession of 166● , and till august 24. 1662. and of 9000 ministers , then 2000 only were put out , the other 7000 continuing in . and of those that were put out , some few gathered part of their old flock into private churches , renouncing , and disswading them from the publick : most gathered no such churches , but help their old people as they could , not drawing them from the parish churches , till the time of the kings licences for more open ministry . many led them to the parish churches , and took themselves for fellow pastors , with the publick ministers , and lived in love and communion with them . the people were not by the new law cast out with the ministers . most of the people in the 2000 parishes of the ejected , and almost all in the other 7000 ▪ who before communicated , or were ca●able of it , continuing the parish communion . and so are churches , if they were so before . xviii . the generality of the former protestant bishops , and clergy , took the parish rectors to be true pastors of the parish churche● , as bishop usher proved them : the church of england is confessed to be of this mind , before the wars . it is not certain that arch-bishop laud thought otherwise : if he did , hey●n names but five that joyned with him in his main cause , of whom mountague , if not more , were for the contrary cause in this point . xix . they then took a curate to be a pastor , and to have all that is essential to the presbyters office ; and to be a presbyter and no pastor , is a contradi●tion in the sense of protestants and papists , except what is said for lay-e●ders . in france they call all their parish-pastors , curates ; the word sig●ifieth the curam animarum . xx. no law since 166● . hath changed any essentials of the parish-pastors o●●nce ( and so none hath nulled it ) from what it was in 1640. they that affirm the contrary , must prove it . the law before , subjected parish-pastors to diocesans : it imposed the oath of canonical obedience , and a promise of the same in ordination ; it was the same to the ecclesiastical courts as now . if any pretend to such singular skill in law , as to say that there was no law for the book of ordination , which made the ordained to covenant to obey their ordinaries , nor any law for the canons , i hope he will have more reason than to lay the controversie about separation on his odd conceit , when all the people in england have in the days of the four last soveraigns , been forced to submit to these as legal ; and no such pretender could at any time deliver them . books have been written , and pleas used against submitting to the courts that declared not that they held their authority from the king ; but the judges still over-ruled it against them and they that profest to hold it from the king , did many , if not most , mean but the liberty of publick exercising it , as the ministry is held under him , or the adjunct cogent power , or the circa sacra . xxi . the law enableth the parish-minister to receive into the church by baptism , ( tho under canonical prescripts , which dissenters much dislike ) , and to catechize youth , and certifie their fi●ness for confirmation , before they communicate : it bindeth them to reject all from communion , who are not confirmed , or at least are not ready and desirous of it ; it tells us who is to be taken for ready , those that have learnt the catechism , and solemnly own their baptismal covenant . the pastor hereby hath power to try all the unconfirmed , whether they are thus ready or not . the canon requireth him to deny communion to all that live in any scandalous sin : the law and canon bid him to instruct the congregation , to lead them in publick worship , and in the name of christ to reprove , admonish , comfort , administer the lord supper , visit the sick with instruction and prayers . all which , with the aforesaid power of judging who shall be communicants , is full as much as is essential to a parish-pastor . solemnly to pronounce them excommunicate , beside refusing communion , is not essential . if it were , they have power to do it , after the bishops sentence . if it were essential to do it as ungoverned , or finally , or without appeal , then apostolick , yea and magistrates government would null the pastors office. xxii . the altering some words in ordination , and putting out the name [ pastors ] from most places in the litturgy , where they were applied to parish-ministers , is no change at all of the office , much less of its essence . it takes no power from them , which they had : but it was done by the interest of some men , who thought that presbyters , who swore the three kingdoms against bishops , had taken too much upon them , and in opposition they endeavoured to keep them under , and so would diminish their pretences for parity . but this changeth not the species of the office. and it s known who these men were : and tho some of them are of opinion , that diocesan bishops only may regularly confer ordination , and exercise jurisdiction over the clergy , and that meer presbyter ordination with us is null . 1. these same men had a chief hand in debating and wording the kings declarations october , 1661. concerning ecclesiastical affairs , and therein the king after debates with lords and bishops , distinguisheth the meer pastoral preswasive power , from the episcopal ( which is cogent ) and alloweth the rural deans with the presbyters of his deanry , to exercise the said pastoral perswasive power , and the other pastors also to joyn with the bishops . and the law still calls them rectors : the liturgy yet calls them past●rs ; the word pastors , being a metaphor , they take to be general , bish●ps and priests being with them two orders of pastors . therefore because it doth not distinguish them , they usually leave it out , and put sometime bishops and curates , and sometime bishops , priests and deacons : the common description of a bishop by them , is , that he hath the sole power of presiding and determining in ordination , and jurisdiction , s●ne quo non , oft alledging jeroms , quid facit episcopus , quod non facit presbyter excepta ordinatione . and yet the law still binds them , not to ordain without presbyters imposition of hands with them . and arch-deacons and presbyters , surrogates , &c. excommunicate . and in the ember-week , they are every day to pray by the liturgy . [ so guide and govern the minds of thy servants , the bishops and pastors of thy fl●ck , that they may lay hands suddenly on no man. ] where bishops and pastors cannot be taken for synonyma , whilst they speak of all that lay on hands . and they distinguish not [ pastors and curates ] where they change the words , but [ bishops and curates . ] but nothing more proveth what i say , than that the law yet bindeth all priests to all that is essential to an episcopus gregis , a pastor of a particular church ; see the exhort . in ord. of priests , [ we exhort you in the name of our lord jesus christ , that you have in remembrance , into how high a dignity , and to how weighty an office and charge ye are called ; that is to say , to be messengers , watchmen , and stewards of the l●rd , to teach and to premonish , to feed and provide for the lords family , to seek for christs sheep , that are dispersed abroad , and for his children , who are in the midst of this naughty world , that they may be saved by christ for ever ; have always therefore printed in your remembrance , how great a treasure is committed to your charge , for they are the sheep of christ , which he bought , &c. the church and congregation whom you must serve is his spouse and his body ; and if it shall happen , the same church , or any member thereof to take any hurt or hindrance by reason of your negligence , ye know the greatness of the fault , and the h●rrible punishment that will ensue : wherefore consider with your selves the end of your ministry towards the children of god , towards the spouse and body of christ , and see that you never cease your labour , your care and dilig●nce , till you have done all that lieth in you according to your bounden duty , to bring all such as are or shall be committed to your charge , to that agreement in the fai●h and knowledg of god , and that ripeness and perfectness of age in christ , that there be no place left among you , either for error in religion , or viciousness of life : forasmuch then as your office is both of so great excellency , and of so great difficulty , ye see with how great care and study ye ought to a●ply your selves , as well that ye may shew your selves dutiful and thankful to the lord , who hath placed you in so high a dignity , as also to beware that neither you your selves offend , nor be occasions that others offend . and after their covenant to preach according to the scripture , they promise [ to give faithful diligence , to administer the doctrine , sacraments , and discipline of christ as the lord hath commanded , and as this church and realm hath received the same , according to the commandments of god : so that you may teach the people committed to your care and charge with all diligence to keep and observe the same . here doctrine , sacraments , and discipline , are their office-works : gods commandments are their rule , tho on supposition that this realm hath received them according to his commandments . next they covenant with all faithful diligence to banish all erroneous and strange doctrines contrary to gods word , and to use both publick and private monitions and exhortations , as well to the sick as to the whole , within your cures , as need shall require , and occasion shall be given : and [ to keep quietness , peace and love among all christian people , and especially among them that are or shall be committed to their charge . all this is setled by law , and all ministers subscribe to it : and is not this enough to the essence of a pastors office ? what is the reason ? the next promise is [ reverently to obey their ordinary , and other chief ministers , to whom is committed the charge and government of them , following with a glad mind and will , their godly admonitions , and submitting themselves to their godly judgments . this shews that , 1. it is not a strict divine right that is meant over them ; for all ordinaries , and other chief ministers , pretend not to such right . 2. if others superiority null their office , then none is in office but the king : was di●trep●es no minister , because john threatned him as his superior ? it 's liker he had been none for resisting john , of the two : were all degraded that obeyed the apostles ? if it should be an error , that a parochial bishop is a governor over his junior-presbyters , or a diocesan over both ; that nulleth not the presbyters office : the presbyterians give a classis or synod as much power over particular churches , as the episcopal give to diocesans ; ( or near ) : and yet few separatists have thence concluded that they have no particular churches , or that this nulleth them ; contrarily , ab est tertii adjecti ad est secundi valet argumentum ; parish churches are govern'd churches subject to superiors ; ergo , they are churches . and the law calls them churches , 〈◊〉 , it taketh them for churches , ( while it taketh no essential from them ) . xxiii . there are some particular drs. in england indeed , who say that there is no church without a bishop of its own , and 〈◊〉 epi●c●pus , ibi ecclesia , and that ecclesia est pl●●s ep●s●●● adu●ata , and that our parish ministers are no bishops , and that their sole ordinations are nullities ; and consequently it would follow , that their parish churches are truly but parts of a church infimae specie● : and because these men speak against reordination , and yet require those to be ordained again , who were here ordained by mere presbyters , therefore it seemeth plain , that they take the former for no true ordination : these men i have oft confuted , especially in my treatise of episcopacy : and hence some gather , that i charge this error on all the church of england , and take the law and clergy to nullifie the parish-ministry and churches : therefore i am specially obliged to answer such misconcluders , lest they make my writings a means of deceit against my sence , and against my will : for so unhappy is the controversal world , even of men of worth and name , that if i do but say that two is less than three , and that four is more than three , they fear not to say , that i contradict my self , and r. is against b. and sometimes i speak for , and sometimes against the same cause ; and these being ordinary disputers and church-guides , what hope have the christian flocks of unity and peace , but by such mens ceasing their disputes ? here therefore it must be noted , 1. that the men of this opinion are not to be called , the church of england . the most of the bishops and clergy formerly were against them , dr. hammond , and bishop gunning , and a few more , were almost the first that seemed to go so far . 2. and yet even these few do usually except the case of necessity , and of the forreign churches , ( as dr. sherlock hath lately done at large ) so that then they cannot take their episcopal ordination received , to be essential to the priesthood . 3. and these men themselves call our parish societies , parish churches , and deny not the presbyters to be episcopi gregis , and to have a pastoral care of the peoples souls , for they own the liturgy , ordination , and other writings of the church , which assert it . 4. their opposition to presbytery hath carried them to appropriate the name bis●op to the diocesans , but by it they mean only a bishop over presbyters , having the power to ordain and depose them , and to ●● be chief in governing all the flocks ; but the controversie de nomine , and de re are not the same : this denieth not all pastoral episcopacy in presbyters over the flocks under them : that these men by running into extreams do ill , many have written to prove : but maiming the parish ministry , or too much limiting it , is not nullifying it . 5. let it be considered , that even the separatists say not that the power of ordination is essential to pastors : some of them take pastors unordained , only elected and received with prayer : some take men ordained by n●ighbour pastors , that have no power over them : some take men ordained by bishops , some by magistrates : and jurisdiction over n●ighbour pastors i am sure the separatists will say belongs neither to the being or well being of a pastor . if then it be the power of ordaining , and of jurisdiction over other pastors , which the diocesans deny the parish pastors , the● deny them nothing hereby essential to thei● office . all that can with any colour be said , is , that the law now seems to be on these mens side , by requiring reordination . but , 1. the law-makers profess to establish the church , and not to change it to another thing . 2. the law-makers were not all of one mind in the reasons of their laws ; nor had all studied these kind of controversies : many of them , and of the clergy to this day , say that it is not a proper ordination that they require , but the giving them authority to exercise their ministry in england , and the decision of a doubtful case : part of the church taketh them for true ministers that were ordained by presbyters , and part do not ; and that the congregations may not divide , they say they require this like baptizing after a doubtful baptism [ if thou art not baptized , i baptize thee . ] i am against this : but this proveth not that they take a presbyter for no pastor : yea tho they should take his ordaining others to be a nullity ; ordaining not being essential to him . xxiv . the act of uniformity , or the like law , cannot make the church no church , or of another species , than 1. as it is esteemed by god and his law. 2. or as it is esteemed by the greater part of the christian clergy and laity : tho the law should speak as the foresaid odd innovators do . for , 1. all christians profess that christ is the only just institutor of the essentials of his own churches : all christians profess communion with them as churches of christs making by his law : the present church of england professeth this in many books ; it bindeth all ministers to hold to scripture sufficiency , and use discipiine as well as doctrine and worship , as christ commandeth : it openly holdeth all laws and canons about church essentials , yea and integrals , to be void and null that are against the sacred scriptures , and law of god : there is no power but of god : god hath given no power to nullifie his institutions . 2. all true christians who consent to a parish minister , and attend on his ministry , and join in the assemblies , openly profess to own him first as a minister of christ , and to join in worship and communion of the church as prescibed by christ , which no man hath power to overthrow . 3. the parliament and convocations , and bishops and clergy , all confess that they have no power to overthrow the church essentials or offices of christs institution : they have not revoked the church writings in which all this is oft professed : they confess that if their laws mistake and do contrary , they bind us not : they never openly professed a war against god or jesus christ : what if one dr. s. parker , make christ subject to the king in his kingdom ; he is not the kingdom , nor the church of england : for all his words they never made any law to command christ , or to punish him : they never cited him to appear before them , nor did any penal execution on his person , which government implieth . they bow at his name , and profess subjection to him . therefore if the law had by error said any thing inconsistent with the essence of churches and ministry , it had not been obligatory to pastors or people ▪ but they ought still to take churches and pastors to be what christ hath made them , and described them to be . xxv . suppose a law should say , all families shall be so under diocesans as to have no power but from them , and all shall subscribe to this . this doth not null family-power and society as instituted by god , nor make it a sin to live in families , nor dissolve them all ; but all must continue in families as inst●tuted by god : and if any subscribe to this , it will not make it a sin in all wives , children and servants to live in those families . if the law had said , all schools in england shall be essentially subject to diocesans , must we therefore have had no more schools ? or if the school-master subscribe to them , is it a sin to be his scholar ? if the law should say , all christians shall choose their own pastors , and meet and pray and preach as they please , but only in essential subjection to diocesans , must all therefore give over church communion ? if the law had said , all the parish-assemblies in england shall henceforth be essentially subject to the pope , or a forreign council , we must not therefore have forborn all such assembling , but have kept to the state and duty appointed us by christ . xxvi . here the mistaking opponents say , 1. that indeed de jure none can change the essence of christs ministry and churches , but de facto they may , and have done . ans . what is meant by [ changing it , de facto ? ] have they de facto , nulled christs power , law ▪ or offices and churches ? what ? nulled it by a nullity of pretended authority , and overcome his power without power ? de jure and de facto , to be a true church or pastor , is all one christ made true ones : de facto they cannot unmake them , but by destroying matter or form , because they cannot do it de jure : they have destroyed neither matter or form of such parish churches as i plead for , and which christ instituted ; for they had not power to do it : indeed they may de facto make other sort of churches and ministers to themselves , ( tho not de jure ) but not to us ▪ who stick to christs institutions . xxvii . but say they , we confess , if the law did bid all assemblies in england meet in dependance on diocesans , private and publick ; this would not alter the species of our separate churches , because man hath not power , and we consent not . ans . very good . and i pray you what alters the case , as to the parish-churches ? is it that they have steeples and bells , or that they have tythes ? it 's the calamity of dissenters , that they either cannot consider , or can feel no strength in the plainest truth that is said against them ; but thoughts and sense run all one way , which they think right . xxviii . obj. but say they , constitutive and declaritive laws must be distinguished . they can but declare our meetings to be diocesan , which is false ▪ 〈…〉 the parish-meetings such . ans . 1. remember that declaring the parish-churches to be such , doth no more constitute them such , than yours : why then talk you so much of the words of bishops , and clergy , and books , as if their declarations made them such ? 2. but how doth a law constitute one ( the parochial ) to be diocesan , ( or null ) , more than your separate meetings , if by a law of toleration it should say the same of them ? the truth is , they are such to consenters that judg them such : but they constitute them not such to any that consent not to such a constitution , but hold to christs . xxix . but it is said , that our thoughts alter not constitutions , they are our own immanent acts , that nihil ponunt in esse ; and therefore the pastors and churches will be what law maketh them , whatever we think . ans . are not churches formally relative societies ; what maketh them such , but thoughts and wills of men expressed ? gods mind exprest in his institutions is his premised consent ; our consequent obedient consent maketh christians , pastors , and churches : if a law cannot make the parish consent to null christs officers and churches , it doth not null them to them . if a law say , all marriages shall be void unless the bishop remarry them : this maketh them not void to any that consent not , but say , we stand to the valid marriage we had what doth another mans consent do to constitute me a christian or church-member ( except parents for infants ) ? and if my thoughts and consent put nothng in esse , then the thoughts and consents of the conforming clergy alters not their churches ; and what then is that constituting cause you talk of ? is it only the law ? for shame say not so ; gods own law as commanding us to be christians , pastors or churches , maketh us not such , without consent : and can mans law both null gods law , and make us of what species it doth but bid us be , without our consent ? xxx . but here our disputants think they expose me to derision : what ? do i intimate that one and the same congregation , may be two churches of different species ? ans . i think to be such by open profession , is disorderly and unusual : but i think he that denieth this , is unfit to deride the ignorance of another . 1. if the people in one kingdom may be , in specie , two kingdoms , the people of one assembly may be two churches ; but bishop bedle in his printed letter said , that ireland was then two kingdoms , the king being sovereign to some , and the pope to other : and i think hungary is so now , between the emperor and turks . 2. when paul ordinarily held his assemblies in the jewish synagogues , where half were infidels , and half christians , ( before he separated his christians from them ) i think they were two churches . 3. if independents had leave to meet in the parish churches , where the parish minister , and their own minister should preach by turns , and the parish only heard theirs as a lay preacher , or none of their pastor , and so they heard the parish preachers ; i doubt not , but they would be distinct church ▪ if one parish church have two pastors , and one of them be professedly for an essential subjection to the pope , and the other against it , and half the people of one mind , and half of the other , i think they are two churches in one place . if those anabaptists who take none but the re-baptized for church-members , should with their pastors join with independents in worship , tho esteeming them no churches , i suppose you think they would be distinct churches in one place . but i think none of this is the case of the churches that i join with ; for i suppose they null not christs species of ministers to themselves or me . but if they did it to themselves , that would not do it to me . xxxi . obj. but one and the same minister cannot be of two species , and therefore relation to him cannot constitute distinct churches . ans . 1. one and the same man cannot be a minister of christ , and no minister of christ ; so much is true , nor of any two inconsistent species : but if you will call any circumstantial difference a distinct species , that will no● hinder the consistence : the same man may be christs minister , and the kings chaplain , or a dean , or pre●endary , or a diocesan bishop , or subject to a diocesan , such bishops as chrysostom , augustine , ambrose , 〈◊〉 , parke● , grindal , ush●r , davenant , &c and their chaplains did not cease to be christs ministers . 2 relation to one of these men may make two sorts of consistent churche● , if the same man have a parish and a diocess , as the german superintendents have , and many other bishops ; the warrantableness we are not now disputing . 3. yea , one and the same parish minister may be pastor of two churches in one assembly : if he openly profess himself orthodox , the people that so own him are a church ; and if he secretly to a party of them profess himself an anabaptist , or a papist , and they unite with him as such , they are another church , such as it is ; vespae habent favos , & marcionitae ecclesias : tertul. xxxii . obj. but the grand objection is , no man can be a pastor of christ against his will : the parish ministers have all by conforming , renounced the essence of the christian ministry , and subscribed and sworn this renunciat●● by subjecting themselves to diocesans , and swearing never to endeavour any alteration of the diocesan government , and the vestries who represent the churches , have sworn the same ; and you have of●en said that the diocesan form of government , 1. deposeth the parish bishops , and maimeth the ministry . 2. dep●seth the parish churches . 3. and maketh parish discipline impossible . ans . it is impossible to write that , which no man can misunderstand , and make an ill use of . i have oft told you , 1. that i am in doubt , whether arch-bishops as successors of the apostles , only in the ordinary continued part of their office , be jure divino , or not . 2. that congrational bishops over presbyters , being ejusdem ordinis , are an old venerable and lawful humane institution . 3. that congregational bishops , only over the laity , are all presbyters as such , and of christs institution . 4. hereupon i have oft distinguished diocesans into two sorts . 1. those that are but the governors of true particular churches , that depose them not , but rule them by the word perswasively : these are called bishops , being really arch-bishops : these i never charged of the consequents forenamed : and if the king make them cogent magistrates also , i will obey them . i take the judgment of the church of england manifest in ordination , liturgy , articles , &c. to be for such diocesans only , tho i vastly dissent from many things in the canons by which , and the mode in which some exercise their government . 2. the other sort is the innovators form of diocesan government , which hold that there is no church without a bishop , and no bishop but diocesans , ( either bishop of laity or presbyters ) and so that the parish churches are no churches , but part of the lowest sort of true political churches : these i take to be super-conformists , yea nonconformists , and dissenters from the church of england , tho they may strive to get the name of the church to themselves . now , what i say of these innovating nonconformists , and their designs and attempts , our mistaking separatists say , i speak of the laegal church frame , and so of all the bishops and parish-churches . and i see no hope of delivering the church of god from the trouble of incogitant confident erroneous dissenters , that are not able to distinguish . xxxiii . i further answer this great objection ( being concerned in consc●ence to do it , when men father their mistakes and separation on me . ) 1. the parish-ministers that i joyn with , ( and i think the most that ever i knew ) have not ( that i know of ) renounced any thing essential to a parish-pastor : i before said , ordination and jurisdiction over presbyters or other churches , is no part of its essence . to be obedient to a diocesan , is no such renunciation . therefore it is no such renunciation to promise to obey them in lawful things , subordinate to obeying christ . if it prove a mistake in them , and that they owe no such obedience , every such mistake doth not degrade them . he that said , that ( he that will be greatest , shall be servant of all ) thought not that to obey an equal , did null the ministry . nor he that said , be su●ject one to another . christ and peter paid tribute to avoid offence , tho the children be free . but what if a man be in doubt , whether such obedience be not his duty : is it not the safer side much more if he verily think it his duty ? 2. to take diocesans to be jure divino , is said by some to be destructive of the pastoral office , and churches , and a change of the english church-government . but it 's error . for 1. it is not the destructive diocesan government , which acknowledg no church and pastor under them , that those in question consent to ; but the governing diocesan , who ruleth subject pastors and churches . 2. this question of divine right , is threefold . 1. of that which by d●●ire right is necessary , ad esse . 2. of that which is by divine right , best and m●st elegible , or needful , ad melius esse . 3. that which is by right of divine concession lawful , but not necessary . the church of england never determined , which of these was the diocesans case : all conformists judged it lawful ; multitudes judged it better than other forms : many judged it necessary when it might be had . but no law determined for any of these alone . unless you will say , the preface to the book of ordination doth it , by saying [ it is evident to all men diligently reading holy scripture , and ancient authors , that from the apostles time , there have been these orders of ministers in christs church , bishops , priests , and deacons . which offices were evermore had in such reverend estimation , &c. ] here some say , that the church of england took not these for three distinct orders before 1640 , but now : therefore by the word [ these orders ] is meant only two . ans . at this rate , he must have the bette● , whom the hearer best trusteth , whatever he say : if [ these orders of ministers , bishops , priests , and deacons , ] speak not three orders , i cannot understand them . here note partiality ; the same that refuse to subscribe them , because they speak three orders ; yet say , they speak but two ] when they argue that church-government is changed 1662 , from what it was 1640. indeed aelfricks laws in spelman , make bishops and priests the same order , and so do a great part of schoolmen and other papists ; but the english bishops and clergy were some of one mind , and some of another about it , and determined it not . unless this preface be a determination , the name [ order and office ] being both used . and ( to instance in no other ) saravia ( tho no english man , yet of the church of england ) wrote more strongly almost than any that i ever read , for diocesan episcopacy ( against beza , &c. ) and that upon this ground of divine right , that they succeeded the apostles , and such as timothy , titus , &c. in the government of many churches . ( and the kings divines at the isle of white went all on that ground ) . to say then , that to plead a divine right for them , is new , is to contradict large historical evidences . and were it true , that this had been never before imposed or subscribed ; surely it is not an opinion of the divine right of governing of many churches , that renounceth the being of those churches ; it asserteth them to be by divine right . for that which is not , is not governable . non entis , non sunt accidentia . but where and how hath the law or church altered the case since 1640. these words were in the book of ordination before , and i know of none plainer that way since . it s destructive diocesan government , which renounceth the government of any subject churches , but of one only , and of any pastors that i argue against , and not governours of such churches . xxxiv . but it 's objected , that they swear [ not to endeavour any alteration of church-government ; therefore they renounce the pastoral office , because the present government excludeth it . ans . 1. this is to dictate , and not to prove : the diocesan government hampered and fettered it by the canons in the time of whitgift and bancroft , but null'd it not : he that reads the canons , or knows the church , and thinks that it's government hath no need of amendment , is far from my mind : but governing is not nullifying . 2. it is not true ( that ever i heard ) that they swear what this objection saith : the ministers do not swear , but subscribe it , and swear obedience in licitis & honestis : ( and i could never learn what law commands that oath ) . and if it should extend to obey all the canons , it 's that which i would be full loath to swear ; but i know no canon that utterly nulleth the parish-churches and ministers ▪ and a justice that sweareth to execute the laws , is not supposed thereby to justifie every law , nor to execute any , if it should be against gods law , that exception being still supposed . 3. their subscription never to endeavour alteration , engageth them never to endeavour to destroy the parish churches and ministry , and so is for them : for that would be a great alteration indeed . 4. if you should think otherwise ; yet if the subscriber , or swearer think himself , that it is not destructive , but governing diocesans , that he subscribeth to ; it is not your opinion or exposition , that bindeth him against his own ; no , tho you were in the right , as to the imposers sense : for , ignorantis non est consensus . it 's unjust to face them down that they mean what they profess they do not . ask forty conformists , whether they think the government which they promise not to alter , be that diocesan form which ruleth parish churches and pastors , or that which denieth their being , and i think few will profess the latter sense . 5. and suppose the worst , that any parish-priest were of that mind ; yea , and were really no true pastor , as to his own acceptance with god ; he may yet be a pastor so far true , as is necessary to the essence of the church , if the people know it not : for the innocent suffer not for the guilties sin . if a man be a secret atheist , or heretick , or do counter●eit ordination and election , and really had none , and the people be deceived by him , and know it not while he possesseth the place , and doth the work ; his baptisms and administrations are valid to the church , as a church , tho not to himself and his ministry . the jews church was not null , when the high priests had no lawful call , but bought the office of r●man heathens . xxxv . obj. but the vestry swears never to endeavour any alteration . ans . 1. the vestry was never empowred to give the sense of the church herein . 2. i never lived where any such things as vestries were , but in london ; unless you will call the ministers and church-wardens the vestry . and what 's london to all england ? 3. if they are so sworn , it is as a new thing since 1661. but then they are sworn , ( whoever is for it ) never to end 〈…〉 in popery , nor destroying dioce●ans , but only not to alter 〈…〉 i doubt with m●re officers than we wish continued ) 4. and whereas those that i now deal with , say , that indeed before 1640. 〈…〉 churches and pastors , but now it doth by 〈…〉 ; let it be considered , that the lawmakers are so far from professing any 〈◊〉 al●●rat●n , that it is only the long-parliament , and the 〈◊〉 alterati●● , that they complain'd of ; and therefore swea● corporations , vestries , militia , nonconformists ( by the oxford oath ) and engage all conformists never to endeavour any alteration so that they thought that it was the old government that they setled . and now all this great part of the whole kingdom is sworn , as i said , against popery and foreign jurisdiction , against patriarchs , and against putting down parish churches and pastors , that they will never endeavour it ( by consent or execution of any mens commands ) . the alterations made before these oaths , were not essential . xxxi . i add one more argument , that owning subjection to governing diocesans , as such , nulleth not the su●ject churches and pastors ; else by parity of reason , subjection● to arch-bishops would null the diocesan churches and bishops , which it doth not do ; nor do you think it doth ; yea , tho all diocesans solemnly promise to obey their arch-bishops in their consecration . xxxii . if you do know of any minister that is for destructive diocesans , that will not nullifie the offices of all the rest , that never were of that mind or consent : yea , if the law so meant ( as you say , but prove not ) you know how commonly conformists say , that the meaning of the subscription and oaths , is only against [ seditious or unlawful sorts of endeavour to alter . ] be this true or false , it proveth that those men consent not contrary to their sense of the subscription , and so renounce not their churches . xxxiii . indeed the new laws have made ministerial conformity much harder than it was before 164● . and also lay conformity with u● the church-do●rs , by the aforesaid oaths ; and also lay conformity within the church seemeth very hard in some particular offices , especially baptismal circumstances . but i think the ordinary communion in the liturgy , is better than it was before : for 1. the ●pistles and gospels are used after the new translation , which were used after the old . 2. divers collects have some mistakes changed [ as on this day ] at easter , whitsuntide , when it was not on that day . 3. the minister is newly enabled and required to keep all from the sacrament , who are not ready to be confirmed , ( that is , that are not catechized , and ready understandingly , to renew their baptismal covenant ) which is a very great addition of power : and if any practise it not , that 's his fault , and a neglect of execution of his power ; and when he puts scandalous sinners from the sacrament , he may say , [ as a minister of christ and rector of this church , i judg you unmeet for its communion , and forbid it you . ] and no more is essential to his church discipline in excommunication . it 's too true , that the exercise of this it clog'd with further prosecution by him , in the chancellors court , which i think few will undertake . and it 's true , that such ministers are required to publish the excommunications of lay-men , past in the bishops names , tho it be according to such canons , as the 6 th , 7 th , 8 th , &c. but a man in fetters , is a man : it changed not the pastoral office , when heathen emperors persecuted it , and when such christian emperors , as anastasius , zeno , basilicus , theodosius 2d . constantius , valens , &c. vexed or cast out those that were not of their opinions . it nulleth not the office in switzerland to have none but the magistrates discipline . xxxiv . the objectors grant , that , if any parish-church shall by minister and people consenting , be formed according to the rules of the gospel , they are true churches , tho the law should be against them , or command the contrary . ans . 1. much more then , if the law be for all that is essential . 2. and doth not this say as much as i am pleading for ? name me , if you can , any thing essential , which all ministers promise not at ordination ? if any after renounce it , the crime is personal : prove it before you say it , and forsake him , and charge not his fault on others . i think you are not of their minds , that say , [ the law bindeth every subscriber and swearer to the sense of the imposers , when he took it through mistake in another sense , because they refused to explain it ; especially , if he declared his sense : much less doth it bind him to your sense , against his own . xxxv . but then ( say the objectors ) such churches are dissenters ; as such you joyn with them , and not as setled by law , and so it is but a conventicle , and is excommunicated by the canon , or you excommunicated for saying it is a church , and joyning with it . ans . 1. what if all this be true ? doth it follow , that i must separate from it ? are not your private churches more unquestionably excommunicate , &c. by the canon , and yet you separate not from them ? can you see but on one side ? 2. but your affirmation proveth not that the law nulleth such ministers , or churches , as use the liturgy , and subscribe in the favourable sence , tho it should prove a mistake . it must first be tryed and judged to be a mistaken sense , and even where they ( strangely ) excommunicate , ipso facto , the fact must be proved and declared by the judg , before priest and people are bound to execution , ( tho the law be loco sententiae ; the 〈◊〉 being proved and declared ) , no man is bound to do execution on himself . 3. i would seriously advise these brethren to think , whether all good christian men and women are bound to study the laws of england , before they may resolve what church to ●●mmuni●ate with ? yea , whether they must be all so well skill'd in law , as to decide these law-controversies , that you and i are not agreed in , and lawyers themselves do ordinarily differ in ; that is , whether by law the parish-churches and pastors be changed and n●lled , and diocesses be made the only churches , ●●simae species ? must all forbear communion till they are so good lawyers ? why may it not suffice to know christs law , and to profess to obey it , and to do nothing against it willingly ? he that will promise to communicate with th● church , but as it is established by law , should have more skill in the law than i have to know , how it is established ; and every communicant hath not so much more than i. xxxvi . but ( say they ) then you are bound to av●●d s●andal , by professing openly that you communicate 〈◊〉 a dissenter , and not with the church as established by law. ans . 1. then i should falsly say that which i either think is otherwise , or am not resolved in . i tell you , few can truly say this , if any . 2. what need this , when the open profession of all christians is , that it is a church and worship of christs making , which they own and intend , and none that is against them ? and when the articles of the church of england , and the ordination covenant own scripture-sufficiency , and disclaim all that is against gods word : must we be supposed to renounce religion , when we meet to profess it ? and surely for disowning any thing which the nonconformists judg unlawful , all the books written by them , and all the notorious sufferings in twenty two years , ejection and prosecution , are no obscure notification of their judgments , without speaking it at the church ●oors , or before the assemblies : must i openly protest against independency , anabaptistry , or presbytery , ( if i dissent ) before the face of their congregations , if i will communicate with them ? 3. but to stop your demand bef●re i communicated in the parish ●hurch , where i now am ; i went to the incumbent , and told him that i would not draw him into danger , or intrude against his will : i had been ●●iled by the kings commission , and after by the lord keeper , to debate about alteration in the liturgy and worship , and discipline ; and i thought that thereby i wa● by 〈◊〉 6 , 7 , 8. ipso facto excommunicate , but not bound to do execution on my self ; and therefore if i were separated , it should not be my act ; but i left it to his will : he took time , and upon advice admitted me . obj. but you must tell them that the parish church hath no dependance on the bishops , but as the kings officers ; and that it is independent , and then you fall not under our opposition . ans . 1. how many lawyers and civilians do openly say ( as crompton before cosins tables ) that all church government floweth from the king. and doth that satisfie you ? 2. and why must the parish church and pastor needs be independent ? will you have no communion with presbyterians ? 3. and what if it be dependent on the diocesan , as governour ( tho not as destroyer ) ? is it any more destructive of its essence , than to be governed by a classis or council ? xxxvii . as for your telling us , w●●m the canons e●c●mmunicate , or 〈◊〉 lay-chancellors , officials , surrogates , archdeac●ns , &c. exc●mmunicate , what oaths they imp●se , &c. tell them of it , and not us , who are not responsible for other mens deeds . it no more concerneth our cause of parochial lay-communion , than to tell us how bad men some ministers are , nor so much neither : for i that willingly joyn in the liturgy , will not willingly , if i know it , so much as seem to own the ministry of any man that is notoriously insufficient , atheistical , heretical , or so malignant , or wicked , as to do more hurt than good ▪ avoid such , and spare not . xxxviii . obj. they want the peoples c●nsent , and so are no past●rs . ans . the people shew their consent by ordinary submission and communion . obj. the people must be supposed to consent to the law , which maketh them no pastors , but the bishops curates . ans . both the suppositions are before confuted ; both that the people are supposed to consent to any law against gods , and that the law maketh curates to be no pastors . xxxix . to conclude the objections about the essence of parish churches . 1. the question is not . whether there be not a sort of diocesan prelacy , which nulleth them ? 2. nor wh●ther there be not some men in england that write and plead for such diocesan churches as have no true episcop●s pregis , much less episcopus 〈◊〉 under them , but are 〈◊〉 bishops in that diocess ? nor of what number , power , or interest these men are of ( against whom i have oft written ) ? 3. but whether the law be on their side , or against them ? for the old diocesan government of subordinate pastors and churches , is to me n●w uncertain : i did once incline most to the fi●●t sense of the law ; but on sec●nd thoughts hope better of it , and am not lawyer good enough to be certain 4. but if it should be so , i verily think ●●e main 〈◊〉 , of the 〈…〉 , and therefore 〈◊〉 not to renounce their p●rish ●overnment , ●ut only to use it in subordination to the bishop . 5. and i am p●st doubt that all the communicants of england , are neither ●ound to decide this law-doubt , nor to understand it , nor to believe that the law hath altered the government . 6. and if they did believe it , they ought to keep on in church assemblies ▪ according to christs law , taking all that 's against it , as void , as long as they are put ●n no sin themselves , nor the church notoriously renounceth its ●ssentials . 7. and if they were stated members of other churches ( e.g. the gre●k , the dutch , the french ) ; they might ●ccasionally communicate in our parishes transiently ( without examining the pastors call and discipline , but judging by possession and practice ) . 8. and if they should prove no lawfully called ministers , their office would be valid to those that blamelesly were deceived and knew it not . 9. and if they were sure that they were no true ministers , they may joyn with them in all worship belonging to lay-christians . 10. but if they prove able , godly ministers of christ ( tho faulty ) setled by law to the advantage of religion in a christian kingdom , where all are commanded thus to maintain national concord ; and the upholding those churches , is the very national possession of the protestant religion , and it goeth for publick disobedience and scandal to forsake them , and that at a time when many forsake them too for unjust grounds , and by suffering for it , stand to unwarrantable accusations of them , and sharply censure those that do not as they , and oppugne peacemakers , and all this after the old nonconformists full confutation of the separatists unwarrantable way , and the doleful experience of subversion of all sorts of government ; by the prosecution of such mistakes , i say , if all this should be the case , it is deeply to be considered . xl. but the most effectual hindrance , is the opinion of unlawfulness in j●yning in the liturgy ; yet my last objectors confess that [ it is lawful to some , and that it is n●t communion in it , much less in all forms , which they call unlawful t● all : and the sober sort are loth to say t●at the millions of christians in england , and scotland , who live where they can be in no other churches , should rather like atheists live without all church-worship and local communion . and in gaining this , i have gained the better half of what i pleaded for . and they confess , and so do i , that publick communion may be one mens duty , and anot●●rs sin , as circumstances vary . i confess one man may possibly live under so intollerable a minister , as is not to be owned . and even some of the high adversaries of nonconformists seem of this mind , and break the canon ; and having pastors , who they think do not heartily conf●rm , ●ut plead for peace and moderation ; they revile them as trimmers , and will not communicate wi●h them , but go out of their own parishes ( and thousands seldom any where . other circumstances also may vary mens cases . ●ut some objectors at last t●ll us , that the great difference which they mean , is differe●t light : t●e ●ld martyrs , reformers and nonconformists , had not so much light as we , and so it w●s not th●●r sin ; but greater light being now m●r● common , it will be a common sin to j●yn in the liturgy ▪ ans . 1. it is ordinary and easie for men to magnifie their own understandings ; but gods law was then the same as now ; and they were bound to know it ; their ignorance might make sin less ( and stripes fewer ) but could not make it none . 2. i have many reasons to think that it is your light that is l●ss , and the old nonconformists and conformists ( in this ) that was greater . 1. that is the greater light that most agreeth with gods word , and th● universal churches practice accordingly . 2. the writings of the old nonconformists yet extant , give better reas●ns than the seperatists did , and therefore had clearer light . what vast difference is there in the writings of ball , hildersham , am●sius , ( manuductions ) gifford , paget , bradshaw , &c. on that part , and johnsons , cans , penrys , &c. on the other ? 3. the theological writings and labours of the nonconformists in all other points shewed , that they were men of incomparable more light than the separatists ; and is it like that god would give men such rare light only in church ▪ communion , that had so little comparatively in the rest of divinity ; except ainsworth's skill in hebrew , ( in other things by paget laid too naked ) how few old separatists have left any considerable fruits of great light unto the church ? read the writings of cartwright , dudley fenner , hildersham , john reignolds , dod , perkins , bai● , parker , ames , bradshaw , &c. besides scots ▪ and all foreigners , such as calvin , beza , zanchy , sadeel , and hundreds more ; and compare these with the writings of the separatists , and judg who had greater light . 4. since 1660. all the london ministers , and others with them t●at offered the king to set up in the parish churches the old liturgy with some alterations , were men ( except my self ) who shewed in their writings and preaching ▪ as much light as the separatists have shewed , even brown , or john goodwin himself , ( that wrote prelatical preachers are no teachers of christ ) : where do they now shew greater light than others ? this boast to me deserveth pity more than confutation : anabaptists , and others say the same , but i find much less light in them both , when i read and hear them ; tho i truly love and honour all that is good in them : if you have so much more light than we and all the reformed churches , shew it us in other excellencies . xli . but i must more particularly consider of this authors allegation of my own words against me , especially my treatise of episcopacy : and i do heartily thank him for calling me to review it . for , 1. i profess to write nothing which may not be amended . and 2. if mens misunderstanding turn my writings to a snare and scandal , it greatly concerneth me to remove it by explication , or by retractation of any thing that needeth it . and 1. i do find that i have incautelously given some occasion to the mistake ; for thol entituled my book , not against diocesan episcopacy , but against that sort of diocesan churches , prelacy and government , which casteth out the primitive church sp●cies of ●piscopacy , ministry , and discipline ] ; and tho to avoi● mistake , i said in the preface , i ●ere give notice to the reader , that whenever 〈…〉 me speak as against the english diocesan prelacy , i mean it as described by cosins and dr. zouch , and as relating to the et c●tera oaths and 〈◊〉 ▪ and not in opposition to the laws of the land ; yet all this was not enough to avoid misunderstanding ! indeed i took the church government to be described and judged of by the churches own sentence , more than by the ●●w ; and i had read the said et cetera oath and canons with the words that so it ●ught to stand , which i think could mean nothing less , than that so by gods law it ought to stand ; and i had read the old canons , 6 th , 7 th , and 8 th . which ex●ommunicate , ipso facto , all men , with●ut excepting l●rds or parliament m●n , who affirm that any thing in the church government , by arch-bishops , bishops , deans , arch-deacons , and the rest that bear office therein , is repugnant to the word of god : and i read the canons that forbid ordained ministers to preach till they are further licensed by bishops ; yea , and in the church or elsewhere so much as to expound any doctrine or matter , but only to r●ad scripture and homilies , &c. with much more like this . 3. and then i took the stated restraint of the ministry , with lay-chancellors , and officials decre●ive power of excommunication , and absolution , and the foresaid civilians denying all g●venment to presbyters , to have been quoad exercitium quantum 〈◊〉 ; at least an overthrow of parish churches , rectors and discipline . 4. and i thought that the bishops and chancellors could never have so long done all this , and ruled by these canons , if the law had not been on their side . 5. and i thought that the authors of the canons of 1640 being a c●nvo●a●i●n , it was to be called the church of england : and specially when i found the most highly honoured doctors pleading , there was no bishop but d●●cesan , and no church without its proper bishop . by all these inducements ( with long sad experience ) i oft speak so incautelously calling this , the english d●●●●san frame , that the reader might easily think that i meant it was that frame that was setled by law ; whereas having read ●ryn , h●ntley , leigh●●● , and others that deny the law to be for it , and being my self a stranger to that case of law , i should have more fully separated the law case from the new convocation case , and much more from the destructive innovators case , who nullified the foreign churches , with whom it was that i disputed ; and specially considering that the canons and oath of 1640. were a●ter cashier'd by parliament , and never since restor'd , no not by the parliament of 1662. upon all this , 1. i retract all words that seem to determine the case in law , ( if any such be there ) or that by darkness tend so to the readers error . 2. and all words that make the writings of superconformists and subver●ers , or chang●rs of the church government , or the canons of the convocation 1640 to be the sense of the church of england , when it is said , that before its sence was otherwise and alteration is now abjured , or disowned by most of the land ; and conformists usually profess another sense : upon this very reason i write this short debate to avoid the injuring of the re●ders of my writings , about the english diocesan frame . xlii . the book i animadvert on , is called , mr. baxters judgment and reasons against c●mmunicating with the parish assemblies as by law r●qu●red . ans . i am for communicating with them in the essentials of christianity , and communion , as the law requireth , if i understand it , because the law of christ requireth it : but in whatever circumstances any law shall ●e against christs law , i communicate not according to such a law. xliii . all that he citeth out of my writings , p. 2 , 3 ▪ is against his cause , which he thought was for it , as i have proved . what he citeth § ● . the first is unproved , the second i own , and is nothing for him . xliv . p. 5. and oft throughout , he alledgeth , that i make the par●shes not compleat particular churches . ans . no wonder ; those may be true churches , that are not compleat in integrity or degree ; will you separate from all churches that are not so compleat ? i know not of any strictly compleat on earth : many true churches are incompleat as to integrals , much more as to ornament , order , and strength : and all particular churches are less compleat than the universal ; and that on earth , alas how far from compleat : believe him not reader , that r.b. is against your joining with all churches , which he proveth to be not compleat , yea , or to be very faulty and defective in point of ●oliness , love , or order of ministers or people : but they are true churches in essentiality , tho parts of a diocess , as that is of a nation ; not meer parts of the lowest single church . p. 6. § 2. what i say of suspending the power , is not nulling it in the office ; and what i say of practice by canons , and visitation articles , is not said of law ; much less of all the churches and pastors consent to them ; and what i say of misgoverning in exercise , is not said of a national profession , that so it ought to b● . p. 7. he citeth my words further against restraint of the ministers power . but 1. that nulleth not christs institution of it . 2. more power is given . as 1. to deny the sacrament , as is said , to all that are not ready to be confirmed . 2. to deny absolution to all the sick , who do not humbly and earnestly desire it , &c. and the power of doing it by ministerial application of gods word , is all that is properly ministerial , though they take all cogent power from us : mans taking away our power , is but hindring the exercise quantum in se , but the power is of christ , which they cannot take away . p. 8. they cannot suspend our commanded act , ( but only our doing it with liberty and advantage ) : i can refuse the sacrament to the unfit , tho it be to my trouble . p. 9. i say there are many additions to the old conformity ▪ that make the case harder to clergy and laity than of old : but i there maintain that none of these additions do make parochial communion now pleaded for , unl●wful . xlv . p. 10. he saith , if we might not endeavour to restore the old prelacy , then not to give strength to it being restored : and ( say others ) , lest we be perjured , having sworn and covenanted against it . ans . this needeth impartial consideration : they say , that our covenant engagement maketh that unlawful to us , which was lawful to the old nonconformists . but 1. did not gods law make it unlawful to them , or to us before ? then you think we covenanted to do somewhat th●t ●ods law bound us not to ; if so , it was superstition ; and is not adding our self-made vows and duties , as bad as adding ceremonies ? 2. yea , they then thought brownism a sin ; and if they mistook not , we cannot by covenanting turn sin into duty . 3. ad hominem , the author professeth independency : and i suppose he knoweth , that the chief of that way , did some write , to prove that the covenant bound not ( at last ) , and some likened it to an almanack out of date ; and some said , it was a league which was dissolved , and so bound not ; and how great a party thought that it bound them not from pulling down both king , and many parliaments , and conquering scotland , res ips● loqunta ●st : and even king and parliament , lord spiritual , temporal and commons , have declared it their judgment in the corporation act and declaration , which bindeth all the corporation officers to declare without exception , that there is no obligation on them , or any other from the oath , called the solemn league and covenant : it 's true indeed , that the presbyterian ministers , and soldiers ▪ and people , thought that this covenant bound them to restore the king ; and said , let us keep our covenant , and trust god with the issue ; and g. monks army officers in their address to him , glory in it , not doubting but the king would find such his best subjects ; but the law that bindeth men to declare that there is no obligation on them or any other , tells them they did err when they thought it bound them to restore the king : whether this be true or not , i meddle not with ; but by this you see , that there are few in the land of any party , save presbyterians , that can charge us with covenant breaking ( herein ) for going to the parish churches , without contradicting themselves or guides ; but this is but ad hominem . 4. but what words be they in the covenant that we violate ? did it mean , if power restore the liturgy , and bishops , and will suffer no other churches , we will rather all give over all worship of god in churches , than we will join with them ? this were a wicked oath , and could no more oblige us , than to give over all family worship ; i hope few sober men ever so sware . 5. i so little consent to the corporation declaration , that i do believe that i was bound by that vow to do as i have done in going to the parish churches . for 1. i am bound by it against prophaneness , and all that 's c●ntrary to sound doctrine and godliness : but to forsake all publick worship of god without necessity , is prophaneness , and c●ntrary to godliness . 2. i am bound in my place and calling to oppose popery ; but to tell all the protestants in england , that they sin if they forsake not all the parish churches , is to pre●are them for the reception of popery , seeing that will be the national religion which possesseth those parish churches : by deserting our garisons we shall deliver them up . 3. i am bound by it against schism ; and i am not able to excuse it from being schism , if under all the obligations that now lye upon us , i should by my constant avoiding the parish churches , even unto sufferings declare , that i take their communion for absolutely unlawful , and so slander so many churches of christ , and seduce others with me into the same error and sin : this would be schism and covenant-breaking in me ; whatever it is in others . xlvi . obj. but you swore against prelacy and liturgy , and now you strengthen them . ans . 1. as the covenant was made the terms or test of national church union , excluding all the episcopal , who were half the kingdom and more , i think it was a rash sinful engine of unavoidable division : but when i took it , it was not so imposed , but offered to them that were of that mind , and i saw not then that snare . 2. i never swore against the common-prayer , nor against the englsh frame of prelacy , ( much less , all episcopacy ( any further , than in my place and calling to endeavour reformation according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches : and this i have endeavoured to the utmost of my power , perhaps more than my accusers . and 3. there is much good in the liturgy , parish order , and government : i never did covenant against that ; and therefore the ministers who laboured for reformation and concord 1660 and 1661 , thought they kept their covenant by craving some amendments , and not an abolition ; and if we did think any thing to be bad that was good , we must not be obstinate in that error ; forsaking the good which is our duty , is not the way to amend any sin or error ; avoiding gods publick worship , and living like atheists ( save in private ) is not the way to amend the faults of publick worship or government : praying to god for what we want , and owning the scriptures , and christian religion , and communicating with christians on lawful terms , is not encouraging any sin in church priests or prelates , unless men by our duty will be encouraged to sin ; and we must not forsake duty to avoid such mens encouragement : the sons of the coal are most angry with those that come nearest to them in all things save their sin and error ; and say , those that stand afar off cannot hurt them : i do not just●fie all that is in every assembly that i join with ; must i needs renounce local communion with every independent , presbyterian , or anabaptist church , that i dissent from , for fear of strengthning them : i covenanted as much against schism as faulty prelacy ; and yet if i must join with no church that is guilty of schism , alas whither shall i go ? 4. i humbly desire you to examine , whether your way be not a breach of the covenant you plead ; not only as it advantageth prophaneness , popery , and schism , but as it strengtheneth that which you say i strengthen ; he knoweth not england , who knoweth not that perceiving the error of unwarrantable separation , and the unjust accusations of the liturgy and churches , used by very many ( besides some failings in some private churches ) hath been , and is a grand cause of encouraging too great a number , even to superconformity , and to the fierce opposition of us , and to the utmost confidence in their own way : and as you charge me more than others as drawing more to the communion of godly protestant parish ministers ( that is , to christian catholick love , peace , and communion ) : so do the sons of the coal , the superconformists more fiercely revile me as stopping more , than you have done from their extremities . gods word is a sufficient rule , keep to that , and fear not breaking any self-made laws . xlvii . obj. but by this latitude you may join with papists , and say , you judg of them according to christs description . ans . i answered this in the former book : when i joyn with any church as a church , i join with them as meeting to profess and practice christian faith and worship , their by faults i own not : but if they openly profess idolatry or heresie , instead of worship and faith , or if they meet to practice any sin which renders the whole church or worship rejected by god , i must not assemble with them , but avoid them ; which i must not do for tolerable failings , lest i avoid all the world : i say again , i will cast away my wine or broth for poyson in it , which i will not do for a fly : if the church renounce christs description in the essentials , notoriously , i will not call it a church against their own consent : but if they do it only in some accident or integrals , i will only disown those faults . xlviii . obj. but , say they , ( p. 13.14 . ) it is impossible there should be two national churches , at least in one nation ; therefore by joining with a parish you can be no part of the national church ; tho we confess that if you join with a parish assembly that forms it self into a compleat single church , and the people ●onsent to take the parish minister for their pastor , and the minister should exercise the whole power of a pastor in this parish church , mr. b. may hold communion with this parish church , and not own the diocesan constitution . ans . of two churches in one assembly i spake before . 1. doth this author think that exercise of power is as essential to a minister as power : yea , that it must be the whole power that is exercised ; and so that no one is a true pastor among the presbyterians , when the classis exerciseth the highest part of the power ; nor in helvetia , where discipline is unexercised ; nor in england from the first reformation : were all the conformists that submitted to diocesans no church-pastors ? nor no independents , whose churches having many pastors and elders , no one exerciseth ( no nor hath ) more than part of the power ? integrity and essentiality , office and exercise , are not all one . 2. all good ministers that i know in the parish assemblies , do consent to the pastoral office , and the people love them , and shew their consent by ordinary communion ; and they exercise all essential to the office , tho under the restraints of government , not owning ( in consent ) destructive , but governing diocesans , some as de jure divino , lawful ; some as best , some as necessary , many as merely impowered to a cogent government by the king ; and doth not your concession imply , that these are true churches ? of intolerable men i speak not . 3. what you confidently deny , is certainly true : there may be two national churches in one nation , if not three ; that is , the word is equivocal , and hath divers sences ; and it is not called national , because all persons in the nation are of it , but because that the diffused parts of the nation own it formally in a publick national relation . 1. a christian kingdom as such , is by many called a national church ; thus england is such . 2. a coalition of the most , or all the publick ministers in a nation in synodical agreements for communion as such , is called a national church ; such also is england . 3. the subjection of the most of the clergy in a nation by consent to some ecclesiastical primate , patriarch , or other constitutive , governing head ( as a bishop is in his diocess ) may make a national church in another sence . the same men may be of divers of these equivocal churches ; or if part be for one form , and part for another , yet agreeing in the same ordinary , external communion ; one part may be called national as well as the other . the question is de ●omine , the name equivocal from diversity of relations : i own , 1. a christian kingdom . 2. i own a national association of parish churches and pastors . 3. tho these submit to diocesan superiority , and be parts of a diocess , but true single churches , i do not therefore separate from them . 4 ▪ a national church , headed by one constitutive , pastoral head , i disown ; call which you will the national church . but ( saith he of his approved parish church ) , p. 14. such a church a●●i●meth to it self all that past●ral p●wer that in pursuance of canon and statute law , is fixed in the bishop . ans . incogitantly spoken ; do all independents assume the power of ordination , jurisdiction over others , citations , licencing , subspendings , degradings , silencings , instituting , inducting , &c. which are so fixed on the bishop : if none of this be pastoral power , then the appropriating it is no depriving parish ministers of pastoral power ; and to be under magistrates power nulls not the pastors . xlix . what he saith about unlawful terms of communion , p 21. &c. in the instances of kneeling , putting off the hat , standing up , &c. i answer , 1. the author all along seemeth to forget , that i am not accusing him , not telling every man his duty , but only giving the reasons of my own and such others practice : so they make a long ado , to vindicate him whose manuscript i answered , and say , his question was only , whether it be lawful to communicate with the churches as setled by law , and not in other respects ? when i ever told them , i meddle with none of their questions , but my own , viz , 1. whether i and such other do well or ill in that communion we hold with the parish churches ? 2. whether all protestants in england are bound in conscience to renounce and avoid communion in the liturgy with all parish churches and chappels , and rather to give over all church worship ? i only gave my reasons , why that manuscript ( divulged and boasted of as unanswerable ) changed not my judgment ; and i answered that in his arguments , which went further than the question put by them , and assaulted my own assertions ; having before in my christian directory , and cure of church divisions ( without naming him ) fully answered his printed reasons , to prove it unlawful to use an imposed form or liturgy , especially because ministers must use their own gifts . but if any man believe that it is a sin to communicate kneeling , or standing , or sitting , unless he lye down as christ did ; or at any time , save at a feast or supper ; or any where save in an inn or an upper room , or with any women , or more than twelve , or if they think it sin to kneel at prayer , or be uncovered , or to sing psalms in our metre and tunes , whether these men should separate from all the churches that will not receive them in their own way , or how far they do well or ill that will not let every man do what he will , is none of the case that i have before me : it will not follow , that i must separate from a church that bids me kneel , and be uncovered , &c. because you take it to be sin : put not your measures on all others . and here because same maketh mr. faldo the author of the vindication , which i answered , that i may so far vindicate him , as to shew , that it 's ●earce likely ; i ask , whether if mr. faldo did well as a pastor to keep up a church at barn●● many years , which would not endure the singing of a psalm of praise to god , but constantly forbore it , tho his judgment was against them ▪ ( besides that many of them were not only against infant baptism , but f●rther differ'd in other things ) ? was this communion more lawful or laudable than with honest parish ministers in the liturgy ? did he the whole office of a pastor : what if the bishop had forbid him to sing ●salms ? is not the church state more concerned in the whole congregation ▪ than in an absent bishop ? what greater omission or defect is there in many parish-churches ? i again say , that i am so far of the judgment of hildersham , john ball , &c. that i had rather joyn ( caeteris paribus ) in a church that useth the psalms , chapters , and all the lords-day prayers in the liturgy , before sermon , than one that only giveth us one psalm ( or none ) and a pulpit-prayer and a sermon without all the rest of church worship . l. i will conclude all with repeating a little of the explication of my misused writings ▪ i. the pastoral oversight of the laity by the elders , or bishops of the several flocks , is of christs institution , and belongs to all true presbyters : and tho in necessity it may be done by divers transient ministers , pro tempore , most regularly , every church should have it s stated pastors . ii. where such churches are large , the work requireth many ministers , where each one hath but part of the charge . iii. reason and church-consent among these , made one a president over the rest , and called him the bishop pecularly , ( if it were in marks days , as hierom saith , it was in john's ) . and tho this be not essential to a church , it is lawful , and fit ; and at last it grew to so great a reputation and opinion of necessity , that all churches had such bishops , and gave them a negative voice , and ordained not without them , and defined churches as essentiated by relation to them , ecclesia est plebs episcopo adunata . if now such men as j.o. mr. nye , dr. goodwin , &c. should have in one church six or seven young men of their own training up to be their assistant-presbyters , i do not think an independent church would take it for any crime that he should have a negative voice in acts of order and discipline , or that they should ordain ministers therein without his consent . iv. by degrees single congregations increased to as many as our great parishes that have chappels , and tho still they communicated in the chief church at some special times of the year ; they ordinarily met in divers places , and the presbyters officiated some in one meeting , and some in another ; at first , whosoever the bishop daily sent ; but after their particular tyths or chappels were assigned to each ; yet all together were esteemed but one church , governed by one bishop , and his colledg of presbyters . v. when they increased yet more and more , fixed chappels were assigned to fixed presbyters ; but not as distinct churches , but parts of the diocesan church , tho at last they were larger than one bishop and colledg could guide , according to the first institution . vi. yet long every christian city had a bishop and church , and every incorporate big town , like our corporations or market-towns , was called a city ( not because it had a market , as a reverend slanderer seigneth me to lay , but because custom the master of language , called all corporations and great towns by that name● : but at last the bishops being loath to diminish their jurisdiction , decreed that very small cities should have no bishops , ne vi●c●eat nomen episc●pi . and in process of time in some countries , the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or city , was appropriated at the princes pleasure to some very few corporations , peculiarly priviledged above the rest : so that a king that would have had but one bishop in his kingdom ( as it 's said that all the aba●●ian empire hath had but one ) might have done it by calling but one town a city . vii . yet the people and bishops being sensible that there was more work for a bishop in a city-diocess , than one could do ; in many countries they had rural bishops set over p●pul●ns country churches : and tho these were subject to the diocesans , yet hereby the churches were multiplied : but the bishops soon grew jealous and weary of these rural-bishops , and most places put them down , and set up instead of them a kind of itinerant visiting presbyters , empowring all arch-bishops and ach ▪ deacons , till at last to save themselves the labour , and yet not diminish their dominion , they set up the courts of lay-chancellors , officials , and many such offices , besides the arch-deacons , surrogates , &c. viii , ▪ in england ( as is agreed by most historians ▪ ) at first one bishop had but one church or temple . ( and at luindisfarne saith bede , it was so po●● a thing , that it was a house thatcht with reeds . ) the pastor of this one church was to convert as many as he could in all the countrey about him . the heathen country might be his diocess , but not his church . the converted christians got into several monasteries , and not into parish-churches . these monasteries were partly for society in religious exercise , and partly for studies , like schools to educate youth for the ministry ▪ so that long a diocess was only the bishops church with divers monasteries . at last , gentlemen for their convenience built and endowed parish-churches ; the bishops old single churches being called the cathedrals : and finally , by the help of princes , all the land was divided into parishes , subject to the cathedral-bishops , to whom deans and chapters were added in imitation of the old bishops colledg of presbyters in every single church . ix . when the rural-bishops were put down , the presbyters power in their several parishes was somewhat enlarged : and the diocesses at last became so great , that the bishops were sain to commit more of the oversight to the presbyters : tho they kept them under by severe canons , lay-deputies , and the cogent sword. x. it grew then a controversie among the papists themselves , whether the parish incumbents were proper pastors , and had any power of government , and how much . and my objectors confess , that they were reputed pastors among the papists , and that linwood calleth them pastors , and the laity oves : i have cited in treat of epis . ●ilesa●us , and many more that prove it . ant. de dom. spalatensis , is large and full in it . sp●lman in r. a●l●ricks law , shews that the bishop and presbyter made but one of their seven orders : a great sort of the schoolmen say the same . most drs. say , that the presbyters essentially as sacredetes , have the power of the keys , inf●ro interi●re ; by which they mean not , a power that must be kept secret , but that which consisteth in the perswas●v● use of gods word on c●nfer●n●e , privately or publickly , as distinct from magisterial and c●gent power . and if they ●e of one order , then if one be a past●r , the other is so also . that they are taken , but in partem curae , is nothing against it , but for it . for equal presbyters in one church , have each but partem curae . the reformation finding th●ngs in this case , determined none of the disputes , de nomine , whether parish rectors shall be called ●pis●op●s gregis , or pastors , or rectors , or i●cumb●nts ; but use these names promiscuously . nor did they dispute whether the parishes are political churches . but the definition , and not the name , is the thing now before us in debate . god hath given every such minister the essence of a pastoral oversight of his flock : men may hinder the exercise , but can no more alter the christian office power , than they can deprive a husband of the power over his wife . and the diocesans at last have been necessitated to permit the essential pastoral power ( by the word ) to the incumbents , having none else to use it by . but lawyers have taught many to call nothing government , that is not cogent on the unwilling ; and so to say , that government is not in the presbyters , but the bishops ; and that all is derived from the king ; which is all true , of cogent government by the sword , in f●ro exteriore ; but not as to pastoral government of the flock by gods w●rd . as bishop bilson of obedience hath distinguished , and applied well at large . xi . now to come nearer our case , diocesan bishops have put down the ranks of bishops which of old was setled as presidents over the presbyters in every church , in cities , and of the lowest order ( described by ignatius , and cyprian , and others ) : every lowest church hath not now a bishop over the presbyters , as it had for divers hundred years . and by this they have unchurched all the old sort of churches in the sense of them that say , there is no church where there is no bishop over pre●byters : and they have set up a diocesan church and bishop , only w●●re should be many churches and bishops ; and thus , 〈◊〉 hom●●●m , i argued with them , &c. but indeed this parochial episcopacy , or pr●sid●ncy being wrongfully said to be essential to the church ( being at most b●t useful to peace , ad melius esse ) and the epicopacy or pastoral care of the laity without any power over the clergy ; being it that is essential to single church pastors , in truth no man can alter this . in consent and ●●putati●n , it is altered by those that think parish curates no pastors , and deny any essential power over their flocks . but it is not in consent and reputation destroyed by them that acknowledg their essential power , and subject only themselves as pastors to the oversight of diocesans and magistrates . they do but destroy the 〈…〉 of episcopacy of humane institution ( which was over presbyters in 〈◊〉 ch●rch●● ▪ but not the episcopacy over the flock which is of christs ins●i●utio● ▪ xii . 〈◊〉 whether most in england are of this opinion , or of that , for 〈◊〉 or for meer g●verning episcopacy , and which way the laws go , and 〈◊〉 may be called the sense of the church , when convocations and bishops seem to differ , and men change their opinions with the age and interest , it is impossible for me to be sure . but i know how they govern , by what canons , and by what courts ; and as all their cogent power is from the king , it is no wonder if they be chosen by him : but the old sort of bishops that had no forcing power , was so constantly otherwise chosen , that their canons nulled the magistrates choice . and our present canons since 1604 , tho they null not the parochial pastorship , do so far restrain it , as i hope my conscience shall never approve . but yet , for that i will not forsake what is of god , nor make mans failings a pretence against my duty to god and man , to the violation of love , unity and peace . yet i will try by distinct speaking to make both the case and my meaining plainer , if i can : and thereby to shew , that our case differeth but gradually from the old nonconformists , as to lay-mens parochial communion , where there are honest ministers . and that the old nonconformists had better evidence , scripture and reason on their side , than either those innovators , who make parish-pastors to be but de specie , of humane institution , made by bishops , and changeable by them , having just so much power as they please to give them ; or the brownists , that are so much of the same principles , as to think that mens laws or canons can change the form of the office , or that judg it nullified by tollerable imperfections , and communion made unlawful by such faults , as are found in almost all the churches on earth . qu. whether according to the description of the scripture , and the exposition of dr. hammond himself , all qualified parish ministers be not true pastors and bishops of the flocks , and with their consenting christian communicants , true particular churches ; and de facto all be not in the power given them by god , which is essential hereto , and in the power generally acknowledged by the legal church ? ans . i have spoken to this so largely in my treatise of episcopacy , ( and there added the testimonies of writers , old and new , protestants and papists ( that i will give but a breviate of it here . the essence of the church ministry consisteth in power and obligation from christ , to teach , to guide in worship , and to oversee and guide the conversation and communion of the flocks ; if it were not of christ , they were but officers of men , de specie , even of an office of mans making . dr. hammond saith , that christ gave the keys only to the apostles , and they only to their successors : that there is no evidence that there were any of a second order of presbyters in scripture time ; that this order was after made by man , mr. dodwell sheweth how and why ; and more fully than dr. hammond , asserteth , that such presbyters have no more power than the ordaining bishops intended to give them : or saith dr. h. if they have a first power , it is such as may not be exercised without a second ; so that it is indeed no true power to act : and the dr. plainly tells the london ministers p. 80 , 81. there is no manner of incongruity in assigning of one bishop to one church , and so one bishop in the church of jerusalem , because it is a. church , not churches : being forced to acknowledg that where there were more churches , there were more bishops . and he denied our presbyters , that were not diocesans , to be bishops ( both city and country presbyters ) : and consequently that our parishes were no churches . and on these grounds he and bishop gunning , and such others , judged presbyters ordination null , because they were no bishops . and the said dr. ( tho i thought he had been next petavius , one of the first that had expounded the new testament elders , to be all bishops of several diocesses ) yet tells us that he thought most of his brethren were of his mind herein : and when we in worcestershire formed a pacificatory association of the epicopal , presbyterians , indep●ndents , and peace-makers , agreeing lovingly to practice so much in doctrine , worship and discipline as we were for , according to our several principles , forbearing each other in the rest , and dr. warmst●●● , and dr. tho. good , being for bishops , subscribed to it , dr. peter gunn●●g wro●e largely against so doing to dr. warmstrie , and took him off , upon these aforesaid principles ; and they then called their judgment , the judgment of the church of england , and wrote as if the church had been of their mind , and gone their way . i wrote ●large answer to dr gunning's paper , ( not printed ) and proved that the old protestant bishops and doctors were of another mind , largely citing their testimonies in my christian c●nc●rd , and plainly warned english protest●nts to take heed of these innovators , and that the name of the church and episcopacy deceive them not against the church and protestant cau●e ; many ●ose against me for this with great indign●tion , especially arch-bishop bramhall , and two or three learned writers , and would make the world believe , that it was the church of england which i sought to defame and bring under suspition , and which owned gr●tius and his way of reconciliation with rome , when as it was for departing from the professed principles of the reformed bishops and doctors , and from the book of ordination , and other writings of the church that i blamed them : yet would they needs claim the name of the church of england . and it is not here seasonable for me to tell , how many and how great men in 1661 , and 1662 seemed by their w●rds and doings to be full ( at least ) as high as they , nor how they expressed it , nor how many strongly conceited by the act th●● requireth reordination of men ordained by presbyters , and by the number rejected who refused it , that the parliament had been of th●ir mind , and much more the ●●nv●cation called the church-repr●sentative ; especi●lly when they heard men call the old bishops and arch-bishops ( such as ●sher , downame , 〈◊〉 , &c. in i●eland , and g. abbot , rob. a●b●t , grindal , and many such in england ) puritans and presbyterians : and when p●● . h●l●● maketh arch bishop abbot . and the bishops and clergy in his days to ●e of one mind ( vilified by him ) and arch-bishop laud and his clergy after , of another : in this case i gave the name of the present diocesans , to those that thus claimed it , and pretended so confidently to the present possession of it ; but i thought not their claim just : and when i sometimes used the name of english di●cesans , for this sort who nullifie the parish churches and pastorship , it was but to notifie them that so claimed it , supposing i had oft sufficiently opened my sense , and usually added that they nullifie them not effectively , but quantum in se , and by their consequences . but i again now tell the reader , that i think the judgment of the church of england , considered as humanely constituted by publick professions , and by law , ( much less as divinely constituted ) is not to be measured or named from any innovators , or any that most confidently claim it , or think they are uppermost at the present , and thereby have that right ; but ( as divine ) by gods word , whose sufficiency we all profess ; and as humane , by the published church professions ; that is , the liturgy , the book of ordination , the 39 articles of religion , the apology of the church of england , the defence of that apology set in all churches , the book of h●milies , nowels catechism , the r●f●rmatio legum ec●les ▪ the canons , and the licenced books of the protestant bishops and doctors , such as arch-bp . cranmers , bp. h●●pers , arch-bp . ●arkers , arch-bp . grin●als , arch-bp . abbots , arch-bp . edward sandys , arch-bp . whitgift , bp. pilk●nton , bp. jewel , bp. ally , bp. babingt●n , bp. m●rt●n , ●p . hall , bp. davenant , bp. ●rideaux , bp. br●wn●ig , b. ●otter , bp. miles smith , bp. carl●on , bp bayly , bp. parry , bp. c●wper , and many more such , ( besides those in ir●land aforesaid ) : and such ●rs as dr. wh●taker , dr field , dr. crakenth●●pe , dr. sutlive , dr. mas●n , dr. vvhite , dr. ●i●y , dr. chaloner , dr. vvard , dr. vvillet , dr. holland ▪ and abundance more ; besides all other old licenced writers : i think that all these do fitlier notify and denominate the church of englands judgment , than the writings of one irish arch-bp . and dr. hammond , and dr. gunning ( since bp. ) and a few more such in the points wherein they differ from the rest , ( tho grotius and their chaplains be added to the number . ) and now i will add this further evidence in the conclusion , ( besides that as i said before ) the present laws put us to abjure alterations , and therefore sure they never thought that they so altered the government themselves , that even while they say that the parishes are no churches , but parcels of churches , and the priests are no bps. of the flock , most really acknowledg them the thing , that deny the name . and the argument from the definition is stronger than from the name . and here i will but name first , the scripture descriptions of a bp. and 2. dr. hammonds exposition of those texts . 3. and the matter of fact among us . the first part of the bps. office is teaching the flock . under this teaching part , 1. the bishops office is to preach to them , 1 pet. 5.2 , 3. feed the flock of god which is among you , taking the oversight ( or episcopacy ) thereof , &c. dr. hammond : the bps. of your several churches i exhort . — take care of your several churches , and govern them , &c. qust . whom doth the law require to do more in feeding and guiding the flock ? the incubment that preacheth daily , or the bp. that never seeth the most , nor ever preacheth to one flock of many ? who are they [ that are among the flock ] the incumbent that dwells with them , or the bp. that is a stranger to them ? 1 thes . 5.12 . we beseech you brethren to know them that labour among you , and are over you in the lord , and admonish you , and to esteem them very highly in love for their work sake , and be at peace among your selves . dr. hammond . pay your bps. as great a respect as is possible , for the pains they have taken among you . qust . who laboureth among them most in the several parishes , publickly and privately ? the bp. that never saw them , or the incumbent that layeth out all his study and time on them ? who are most among them ? who most admonisheth them ? what is meant by [ among themselves ? ] is it that lincoln shire , leicester-shire , northamton-shire , buckingham-shire , be at peace among themselves , from gainsborough to oxford-shire ? or is it not rather that neighbour christians that see each other , so live in peace ? 1 tim. 5.17 . the elders that rule well , are worthy of double honour ; especially they tha● labour in the word and doctrine . dr. hammond : let the bps. that have discharged that function well , receive for their reward twice as much as others have ; especially those that preach the gospel , to whom it was news , and continue to instruct congregatons of christians in setled churches . quest . on whom doth the law impose most preaching ? on bps. or on parish priests ? and who doth most of that work ? heb. 13. remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of god. dr. hammond : set before your eyes the bps. and governours , who have been in your church , and preached the gospel to you . quest . ask the parishes who those be ? 2 tim. 4.2 . i charge thee before god , and the lord jesus christ , who shall judg the qui●k and the dead at his appearing , and his kingdom , preach the word , be instant in season , out of season , reprove , rebuke , exhort , with all long suffering and d●●●rine . not only dr. hammond , but all that are for prelacy expound this of a bps office . quest . ask the people who most performs it . 2. the bps office is also to watch over all the flock , personally , by conference , instruction ▪ counsel , admonition , exhortation , reproof , comfort , as every one shall need saith bp. jer. tayl●r pref. to treat of rep. no man can give account of th●se that he knoweth not . acts 20.10 , 28 , 31. i taught you publickly , and from house to house . — take heed t● your selves , and to all the flock over which the holy ghost hath made you bps , to ●eed the church of god which he hath purchased with his own blood. — therefore watch , and remember that by the space of three years i ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears . dr. hammond . instructing both in the synagogues , and the private schools , and in your several houses whither i also came . — wherefore ye that are bps. or governors of the several churches . — look to your selves , and the churches committed to your trust , to rule and order all the faithful under you . quest . is this done more by the diocesans , or by the incumbents ? do diocesans teach from house to house , from southwark to christ-church , from n●wark to alesbury or tame ? who doth the law appoint to warn every one in the church , from house to house , and night and day , & c. ? col. 1.28 . whom we preach , warning every man , and teaching every man in all wisdom , that we may present every man perfect in christ jesus ; heb. 13.17 . obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as those that must give account . dr. hamm●nd : obey those that are set to rule over your several churches , the bps. whose whole care is spent among you , as being to give account of your proficiency in the gospel . q●st . is it the diocesan or the incumbent that the law requireth to preach to , and warn every man , & c. ? and that watch for their souls as those that must give account ? is not the incumbent of this or that parish fitter to watch and give account of each soul , than the diocesan for a whole country , or many counties , who never saw them ? can he do as ignatius's bishops , that must take notice of all the church , even servants and maids ? 3. the bishops office is to be a visible example to all the flock , of humility , meekness , patience , holiness , charity and good works . heb. 13.7 . remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of god , whose faith follow , considering the end of their conversations . dr. hammond : set before your eyes the bishops — observe their manner of living . quest . vvho can observe his example whom he never saw nor know ? or who can make an unknown man his pattern ? do the fl●cks see more the incumbents example , or the diocesans ? it is their example that sak to them thword of god , that the apostle sets before them : and who be those ? perhaps it will be said , that fame may tell the di●cess of the example of their diocesan , tho they see him n●t . i answer , 1. but the text speaketh of those that preach to them . fame may as well tell us of the good works of any other bishop , as of the diocesan : many bishops in london live near us ; it may tell us of any other good mans life . what is this to the text ? 1 pet. 5.3 . neither as being lords over gods heritage , but being examples to the flock . dr. hammond : vvalking christianly and exemplary before them . q. vvhat ? before them that never knew them , nor could do ? doth the diocesan or the incumbent more walk as a known example before the parish flock , for their imitation ? 4. it is part of a bishops office as a general minister , not only to teach the church , but to preach to those that are yet no members of the church , matth 28.19 . go and disciple me all nations . 1 tim. 5.17 . they that 〈◊〉 in the word and doctrine . dr. hammond : to preach the gospel to whom it was n●ws . acts 26.17 , 18. to whom i send thee , to ●p●n their eyes , and turn them from darkness to light , and from the p●wer of satan unto god , &c. not that fixed pastors must wander to do this , as un●ixed missionaries ; but within their reach . hence dr. hammond noteth out of clemens r●m . that they are made bishops over the infidels that should after believe● : and bishop d●wname saith , that the city and territories are their diocesses , when the christians were but few ; and as dr. h. saith , but one congregation , whic● one bishop only with a deacon or two served : so that either a diocess was no church , or it was a diocesan church of heathens save that congregation . our great parishes , that have 70000 , or 60000 , or 40000 , or 20000 souls , have not the sixth part ( that i say not the tenth ) so many communicants . who is it that preacheth most for the conversion of the rest , atheists , sadduces , infidels , hereticks , bruitists , and impious ones ? is it the diocesan or the incumbent ? who doth the law most require it of ? 5. it is part of the boshops office to catechize or teach the novices that have need of milk , and are as children in danger of being tost up and down and carried to and fro with every wind of doctrine . see eph 4.14 , 15 , 16 ▪ heb. 5.11 , 12. with dr. hammonds paraphrase . quest . doth the law and church lay more of this on diocesans ▪ or parish pastors ? 6. it is the bishops work to defend the truth against gainsayers , and confute adversaries , and stop the mouths of hereticks , infidels , and other enemies ; as is confest by dr. hammond , on many texts to timothy and titus , as 2 tim. 2.24 , 25 , &c. not by force , but by evidence of truth . and doth not the law and church lay more of this on the incumbents , than the diocesans ( who are not u●iquitaries ) ? ii. the second part of the bps. office , is guidance , and officiating before the church in publick worship ; in subordination to christs priesthood . 1. by confessing sin , and to be the subintercessor , or the mouth of the church in publick prayer , thanksgiving , and praise to god. 2. in consecrating , and distributing , and giving in christs name , the sacrament of communion . 3. to bless the congregation in the name of the lord , &c. all these dr. hammond maketh the bps. office , and so doth the scripture , and so did justin martyr , tertullian , &c. citations in a confessed case would but be tedious . quest. and who doth this most in all the churches ? who confesseth sin , prayeth for mercy , praiseth god , administreth the lords supper , blesseth the people , &c. the bp ▪ to many hundred churches , or each incumbent to each church ? and on whom doth the law most impose it ? and what doth the diocesan in it , more than any one of the rest ? 2. dr hanmond , on acts 2. and acts 4.33 , 34 , 35. sheweth that it was the bps. part , to receive all the offerings of the communicants , and all the tythes and first fruits , &c. who doth this most ? the diocesan in all the parishes of his diocesse , or the incumbents ? 3. dr hammond , ( and many old canons before him ) tells us , that the bp. was out of the church flock , to take care of all the poor , orphans , widows , strangers ; deacons were herein but servants under them ▪ dr. hammond , on 1 cor 12.28 . the supreme trust and charge was reserved to the apostles and bps. of the church . but the poor will starve if the incumbent with his assistance do not more in this than the diocesan . 4. it is the bps. office to visit the sick . jam ▪ 5. call for the elders of the church , and let them pray over him , &c. dr. hammond , in v. 14. because there is no evidence , whereby these may appear to have been so early brought into the church ( that is subpresbyters ) and because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plural doth as way conclude that th●re were m●re of these elders than one in each particular church , and because elders of the church was both in the scriptures style , and in the first writers the title of bps. and lastly , because the visiting of the sick is anciently mentioned as one branch of the office of bps. therefore it may very reasonably be resolved that the bps. of the church , one in each particular church , are here meant . quest . is it the diocesan ( perhaps 50 miles off ) that the sick must send for , or that the law and church impose this on , ( to visit the sick , and pray over them , &c. ) ? or is it the incumbents ? iii. but the great doubt is , who hath the power of government , and who actually governs , ( not by the sword ) but with the ministerial pastoral government ? and here it must still be remembred . 1. that this particular power of the keys or government , is only by the word of god opened and applied ; as bp. bilson hath proved , and is commonly confessed ; some call it perswasive , some directive , some doctrinial ; but it is not such meer direction or perswasion as any man may use to another ; but such as is the part of one commissioned to it as his office ; an authoritative perswasion , and a judicial decision , as by an intrusted steward of christ : but only on conscience , and on voluntiers , and not by any power to exercise force on body or purse . 2. that governing , and unjust restraining this power , is not taking it away from the pastor ; and laying penalties on men for exercising some part of that which christ hath given , doth but bind men to bear that penalty when the exercise is necessary . now let us consider wherein the governing power doth consist . 1. it primarily consisteth in judging who is capable of baptisme and so baptizing them . this is the first and great exercise of the keys , and that 〈◊〉 foro exteriore . to judge who shall be taken publ●ckly for a christian , and in christs name to invest him solemnly in the number of the faithful , delivering him a sealed pardon of all his sins , and a grant of right to grace and glory . can there be a higher exercise of the keys ? matth. 28.19 , 20. it is the apostles work [ disciple me all nations , baptizing them , &c. ] and dr. hamm●nd thinketh that in scripture-time there were no baptizing presbyters , but bishops ; and indeed it is so great a use of the keys , that this chiefly condemneth laymens and womens baptizing ; at least the trying the catechized , and judging of their capacities must needs be the prime great act of church-power , whatever be said of the execut●●n . now papists and protestants generally place this power in parochial incumbents , yea , and in all other ●resbyters : even those that convert countreys of infidels , and are under no particular bishop , must baptize and judg of the catechumens capacity for baptism ; and are parish incumbents denied this office ▪ power of the keys ? and is it the diocesan or they that use it by baptizing ? obj. the canon requireth them to baptize all infants brought according to law , and so not to be the judges . ans . you should say , and so command● them how to judge . the magistrate may command men how to do their office-work , and yet neither be the maker nor unmaker of the office , ( tho he mistake : ) if rulers misgovern , that 's their sin , but the office of pastors is still the same , and we must not misobey , but suffer , and as b●shop bilson saith , go on with our work as long as we can . 2. and to bid them do more than they would , is not to null their power of doing less . and to punish a man for his duty , is not to di●oblige him from it , till it truly disable him . 2. a second great exercise of the church keys , is ministerially as from christ to declare his laws ▪ and charge men to obey them , both the church together , and particular persons singly . as legislation is the first and great part of christs government [ before judicature ] so the ministerial declaring christs commands , and demanding obedience , is the great act of government . the same word therefore comprehendeth feeding and ruling , 1 pet 5.2 , 3. &c. matth. 24.45 , 46. who then is a faithful and wise servant , whom his lord hath made ruler over his houshold , to give them meat in due sea●●n ? it is ruling by seasonable feeding . 1 thes . 5.12 . to be over them , is exercised by labouring amongst them , and admonishing them , 1 tim. 5.17 . ruling well , is nothing greater than labouring in the word and d●ctrine , 1 tim. 3.2 . a bish●p must be apt to teach : dr. hammond , one that is able and ready to communicate to others the knowledg that he him●elf hath . heb. 13.7 , ●7 , 24. ruling the fl●ck is by teaching and watching over th●m . to be the greatest is to be most serviceable to all ; to be ruled by them , is to know them , to esteem them highly in love for their works sake , to obey gods word delivered by them , and their conduct in mutable circumstances , heb. 13.7 . 1 thes . 5.12 and to imitate their good examples , 1 pet. 5.3 . and what law forbids incumbents to promulgate christs commands , and charge men to obey them ? or to go to any negligent person of his flock with the same charge ? or to go to any drunkard , fornicator , railer , and to tell him from god of h●s sin and danger , and exhort and command him to repent and amend ? and who most doth this work among us ? 3. another part of government is to judg professing christians capable of sacramental communi●● , and admit them , and deliver it them as christs ministers , b● his com●●●si●● , an● from him ; and therein to renew their publick abso●ution , and the●r co●enant p●i●●ledg , and their delivered part in christ , and right to life : no●e dare d●●y that this is a high part of the power of the keys , and proper governme●t , to judg who is capable of church communion , and receive them , and deliver them from christ , the pledg of life . and all papists and protestants almost , judg this power essential to the priesthood , and common to all parochial incumbents : and the church of england ( as i said before ) , 1. delivereth it to them in ordination . 2. requireth them to catechize and cert●fie for such as shall be confi●med ; and methinks the diocesan here useth less of the judicial power than the incumbent , for he doth but lay his hands on them and say a prayer over such as come to him ; for no man can dream that he can examine all the people in his diocess so far as to judg whether they are fit for communion : therefore he is supposed but to execute the judgment of the certifying incumbent ( if he take all at a venture , without a certificate , or knowledg , or if the incumbent be unfaithful , i cannot help or excuse that ) . 3. they are required to keep away all that be not confirmed , or ready , and desirous of it . 4. they may hear any just accusation of the scandalous . 5. they may admonish him , ( if he will speak with them ) . 6. they may refuse him if obstinate and impenitent . 7. they may declare the reason why they do so , as christs ministers by his authority , and tell the church their duty to avoid the communion of such . 8. they may bind him over to answer his contumacy at the bar of god ; and what of this is denied by the church , to belong to the incumbents office ? and who else is capable of doing this in parishes that have multitudes of ungodly persons ? if all this should be made so difficult by the multitude and badness of delinquents , or by bad canons , or bad government of the church by diocesans , officials , &c. and thereby be almost all left undone , i cannot help that , nor excuse it ; but what i have said against such doing is too little : and if priests be so bad , that they will ( any where ) sooner scorn it than practice it , at the rate that it must cost them , i am as much against such priests as others are : but i will not therefore make the office of christ● ministers , the creature of man , and mutable at his will ▪ nor will i forsake faithful ministers for the sake of the perfidious ; no nor for their own tolerable faults or imperfections . and now consider seriously , 1. whether there be any essential part of the office of a pastor , denied by that which may justly be called the church of england , to the parish incumbents . 2. and whether incomparably more of it , even of the government of the flocks , by the k●ys of christs institution , be not by law and canon required , and in fact performed by the said incumbents , than by the diocesans . and whether any use it , if they do not . if it be alledged , that i have in my treatise of episcopacy , named many instances in which they are deprived of the exercise of the very essentials ; i still answer , that if any shall by misgoverning canons or practise lay penalties on them that will perform their office , these do their part to destroy it ; but their sin may consist with the true office that is hindred : if we cannot pray without penalty , we are yet bound to pray : and if any such penalties should prevail with any ministers to cast off so much of discipline as is indeed their duty , their office is so far destroyed as to its exercise : but it is not every ill council , canon , bishop or priest of old when they began to be corrupted , that changed and nullified the pastoral power and office as from christ . i have repeated things over and over here , because i would not be misunderstood , nor leave a snare behind me to mislead men . the sum again is , 1. the pastoral office in specie is instituted by christ and his spirit , therefore the essence of it is unchangeably fixed by him ; and no bishops or churches may change it , by pretending they may give presbyters as their servants what degree or kind of power they please ; or make the office another thing . ii. the said office in mutable accidents or circumstances may be altered by princes laws , or the several churches agreements , and thus far it is humane . of the divine sort was the apostolick and other extraordinary prophetick offices : and the ordinary presbytery , commonly called priesthood , and elders setled over particular churches , were episc●pi gregis ; bishops , over the flock . and of the humane sort is the presidency of one in every single church over the rest of the presbyters , who was the episcopus presbyterorum , a bishop over the presbyters of one single church as well as over the people : this was the old episcopacy of the first three centuries ; this is it which i say our diocesans have put down ; and we that would have them restored , and would have such a bishop and assistant , elders in every church , are by the heighth of impudency , said to be against bishops , because we would have them restored to each church ( tho not as essential to it , as hath been thought of old ) yet as a way of peace , to comply with ant●quity , and avoid singularity ; and they that put down many score or hundred bishops and instead of them would have but one , call themselves episcopal . iii. whether arch-bps . ( diocesans . ) as successors of the apostles in the ministerial care of many churches ( by the word and not the sword ) be of divine or human institution , i am in doubt . iv. the cogent power by the sword is only the magistrates ; and if diocesans appropriate this only , they are magistrates ; and thereby take none of our office from us . v. the ●ssence of the parish ministerial oversight being of god , de specie , and the accidents that are mutable from man , the existence of the office in individual persons , is not without consent of the pastors ; so that no man can be a pastor against or without his will ; ( nor yet without a capacity in qualifi●ati●n ; so that if you prove any person to be uncapabl● , or else to have truly disclaimed and renounced the essentials of his office : i am not about to perswade you , that such a man is a true pastor . vi. but then we must know , that indeed it is such an incapacity , or renunciation , and not a tollerable defect ; nor subscriptions and oaths , which by unseen consequences may seem to renounce it , when the man took them in a sense which renounced it not : for tho such a man may greatly sin by taking oaths or subscriptions in a forced sense , which plainly taken would infer worse , yet his sin is not a renunciation of the office , if he declare that he meant it in a better sence , and took it on such mistake ; for we must not for bare words against mens meaning , quibble or dispute our selves into unwarrantable separations out of christian communion , especially when it is specially necessary . vii . and if any lay-men , or men unauthorized will usurp the keys , or any councils will make hurtful canons , and hinder men in the work appointed by god , we must be faithful and patient , and god in due time will judg and decide all causes justly . viii . the office-power is essentially related to the work ; so far as parochial incumbents are allowed the work as of christ , they are acknowledged to be pastors and bishops of the flocks , tho the name were denied them ; and so far as the bishops office may be delegated to lay-men , or to clergy-men of another order ; so far it is humane , and not proper to them by gods institution . they therefore that say , all diocesans jurisdiction may be so delegated to them that are no bishops , but that the pastoral rectorship by word , sacraments and keys cannot be delegated to any men that are not of the same office ; do thereby say as much , as that the diocesan government is of men ( and may be changed by men ) but the pastoral incumbency is of christ , and cannot be changed . the lord that instituted it , protect it ; and save it from satans most dangerous assault , which is by getting his own servants into it by error , and malignity , and strife , and cruelty , to do his work as the ministers of righteousness , and as by christs authority , and in his name . london aug. 13. 1684. postscript aug. 25. 1684. he that gave me notice of this book which i answer , did withall send me a manuscript to be privately answered , containing the very same things , but somewhat enlarged : his displeasure against my former mention of his private writings to me , and the contents , made me confident that he would not have any thing published which i should answer to his last : by which i found my self in a notable strait : for if he at once privately sent me his reasons , and also in another book printed them , if i should answer his private papers ( which reason forbad me doing in my condition , for his use alone ) i should judg my self forestalled from answering the printed book , because the matter being the very same ( and 't is likely by the same man ) i should be supposed to have broken the laws of civility , to have answered his private papers . but ( having no amanuensis , or scribe to take any copy of his papers , or my own ) i thought it the best way to return his unanswered ( they being written for my use , which reading will as fully serve as answering them ) but supposing the printed papers must be answered , i inserted also an answer to the strength of all his additionals in the manuscript . and at last he giveth me some notice of his thoughts of publishing the manuscript , or a vindication of it . which falls well for the readers use , that i have answered that manuscript before it is published , without taking notice of it , and s● avoiding wordy altercations . the author professeth himself my great acquaintance . who he is , i know not ; but he seemeth to be a very rational sober man. god forbid that i should ever contribute ( unless duty do it accidentally ) to the grievance of such men . i doubt not but he speaketh as he thinketh . and i doubt i have given him occasions by some uncautelous words in my writings . i truly thank god and him , that i am called to review them , and to clear my sence before i die . and i adjure the tearing persecuting sect , to think no more strangely and odiously of our differences in this case , than of the sharp contention of paul and barnabas ; or that men should scramble if gold and pearls were scattered in the streets , where dogs and swine would never strive about them . gods servants would please him : we are all of weak understandings : the wisest best know their weakness : the rest are nearest the state of the fool , who rageth and is confident . it is impossible but offence must come , luke 17.1 . but wo , wo , wo , to any who will make canons so extreme hard for men to agree in as terms of their union and communion , and excommunicate all that say a word against any word , ceremony , circumstances or office of their train ; and when they have done , cry out against men for not agreeing to every syllable , which a thousand to one are uncapable of understanding , and the better men understand them , the more they dislike them . a short answer to the chief objections in a book entituled : a theological dialogue , &c. the chief matter of this book is already answered by the holy ghost , 1 cor. 1.10 . 1 cor. 3. rom. 16.16 , 17. eph. 4.4 . to the 17. phil. 2.1 , 2 , 3. 1 thes . 5.12 , 13. john 17.22 , 23 , 24. and 1 cor. 12. and acts 20.30 . the spirit and stile of it is answered in the third chapter of james throughout . i have nothing then to do but to answer the pretended argumentation of it : for the author shall not draw me from my defensive part , to play the part of a plaintif against others , or to wast my time in altercations , and spend many sheets to tell the world that another man hath not skill to speak sence , and that he seduceth others by ambiguous words , and by confusions . obj. 1. to prove us sinful for being members of the church of england , he saith pag. 15. [ is he not by communion in the sacarment of baptisme made a member ? page 13. is not baptisme ( according to the liturgy ) a symbol of incorporation into the church of england ? confirmation another ? receiving the lords supper another symbol ? &c. ans . 1. baptism as such incorporateth no man into any particular church , but only into the universal , as it did the eunuch , acts 8. 2. the ceremonies or circumstantials of baptism , only shew what men submit to , rather than to be unbaptized , and not what particular church they are of . 3. this objection would insinuate that all that are baptized in the publick manner in england , were thereby incorporated into an unlawful church , which they must by being rebaptized , or by open renunciation disclaim , and so that it is not lawful to communicate with any that were baptized in the parish church , till they have repented it , or are rebaptized , or penitent openly . and if you must have all in england renounce their baptism before you will take their communion for lawful , the same reason will hold against your communion with all the rest of the churches on earth . and when you cut off your self from all , saving a shred , are you a member of the undivided body of christ ? 4. if our baptism in england doth incorporate into their church ( which you suppose is no church , being a false church ) , doth not baptism into your church incorporate persons into yours ? and what then , if your schism prove a sin ? what if rebaptizing prove a sin ? what if the covenant descri●ed by your client , ( to obey none but christ , in matters belonging to worship ) prove a sin ? are they all guilty of all these , and such others ? obj. ii. all that are liable to a church excommunication when they have offended , are declared members of the church . but all communicants and native inhabitants are so . therefore the law hath excepted none . — how comes it to pass , that the church hath power of excommunicating any person , but by vertue of incorporation , which she hath by the same law ? he that is not in the church , how comes he to be cast out ? — is he not by communion in the sacrament of baptism made a member ? ans . 1. doth their esteeming you a member , prove that you are so ? 2. you know that they excommunicate papists , and atheists , who deride them for it and say , it 's a strange church that will cast us out , because they cannot compel us to come in . 3. if this be a good ▪ argument , that all are of their church that are excommunicate , then you are either safe from excommunication ; or of their church , whether you will or not : if to make good your argument , you will aver that no separatist , independent , presbyterian , anabaptist , or quaker , was ever ▪ excommunicate , or imprisoned as such , you will change the current of intelligence , and comfort many that can believe you , and teach them how to escape a prison for the time to come . but if not , you make your self and all these parties , incorporate members of the church of england , as well as me . 4. do you think a lay civilian by excommunicating , can prove or make a man a member of any church against his will ? then mens argument against parish churches , for want of consent , is void . they may be made such against their wills . 5. but tho few men d●sl●ke the lay-excommunicators and absolvers more than i do ( nor grudge more at the bishops and deans who use them , and let them put their names to the excommunications ; especially of the poor church-wardens for not swearing , &c. ) yet let us not render them causelesly ridiculou● . i imagine that they excommunicate not known papists , anabaptists , and such like , out of their church ( who they know were never in it ) but out of the universal church : if this be not their sense , let them give it you themselves , for i am not bound to be their interpreter . and yet to moderate our censures of them , i 'le tell you a wonder : within this hour i received a letter of credible intelligence , of a chancellor who hearing of a conventicle not presented by the church-wardens , and being told that they met to repeat the publick sermon , said , god forbid that they should be hindered . obj. iii. page 8. a church in a sense is a christian kingdom , that is , a royal nation under christ their king. but there is no such gospel-church in your sense ; for there was neither christian kingdom nor king in the ap●stl●s days . ans . the institution may be in the gospel before the existence : christian kings and kingdoms are neither unlawful , nor needless , because there were none then . the prophets not only foretel that nations shall come in to christ and serve him , but that all nations that do it not , shall perish . and christs commission to his apostles was , to go and disciple all nations ( as much as in them lay ) baptizing them . nations as such , were , first to be discipled , and then baptized , ( infants are part of nations ) . and matth. 23. christ would have gathered jerusalems children ( all the jewish nation ) into his church , as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings . and rom. 11. only their own unbelief broke them off from being a national church , ( including infants ) . and it is part of the saints triumph , that the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of the lord , and of his christ . if you will read mr. beverlys book , called the whole duty of nations , it will give you full proof of this . where hath the gospel extensively much prospered where princes and rulers were not christians ? the turks give liberty of religion . and yet the sometime famous greek churches , ( corinth , philippi , coloss , ephesus , laodicea , philadelphia , and more than all the west , are apostatized , or withered to a few ignorant vicious scandalous christians . obj. iv. 8. if such a confederation in lawful circumstantials , as well as integrals , will make a church , i know not why we may not have a catholick visible church organized , if this be a due acception of a church . ans . this is as much as to say , if the name church may be used equivocally ( as all words must ) of several sorts , then all those sorts may be the same . i deny it . if you dislike the use of the name , you have your liberty as a grammarian to forbear it . but sure the name and the thing are not all one , nor the controversies about them . 2. but we have a catholick visible church organized , as i have oft proved against the papists , viz. under one , christ the head , and his ministers as his subordinate officers . obj. v. page 3. if you touch a mans finger , you touch the man : we have communion with an integrum perpartes ; and with a genus by the species ; and with both by individuals : nay as every part of the scripture , one verse or sentence of it makes up sence ; so every part of the liturgy as in form and manner therein contrived , is liturgy ; and worship thereafter is according to the liturgy , tho it be but part of the w●rship . page 20. as for the falseness in integrals , it gives the denomination to the whole ; for an integral part is an essential part of the whole . much more there is to the same purpose , making him guilty of all that useth a part . ans . 1. you have the freedom of using words at your pleasure , but not imposing them on mankind ; when necessity hath taught the world to distinguish essential and integral parts , you have no authority to confound their language , by the quibble of calling integrals essential causes of the whole : a totum per aggregationem ▪ as a heap of sand , or a field of grass , is not constituted of a proper essentiating form , and so homogeneous matter aggregate is all the being it hath . and if you make contiguity an essential cause , or how else you will , you have liberty of speech : but we will not be cheated by it to believe that it causeth any more than totality or integrality , and the absence of it is a privation of no more . and all mens graces , obedience , and worship , are defective in point of integrality and degree , and i hope you will not say that they need no favour , or pardon , or amendment . 2. all human actions have their faults : must we therefore do nothing , or converse with no men ? england is one kingdom ; if there be one or many faults in its laws or officers , may we therefore obey none that are faultless ? the laws are the rule of national justice ; may a judg , justice , officer or subject use none of them , because some are faulty ? doth that make him guilty of all ? bonum est ex causis integris : the fault of a part may indeed denominate the whole faulty so far . but the whole law or liturgy may be called faulty for a part , and yet he that useth either , not be guilty of any of the bad part , for using the good . the law and liturgy are one thing , and the use is another : its faults are no further his , than he owneth them ; your bread or meat may be called bad , if part only be bad , and yet if you eat none but the good part , it will not hurt you . 2. but if it must be otherwise , no man may hear you , or joyn with your churches : and do you think ( as aforesaid ) that mr. faldo , and all his church at barnet , lived not in a sinful communion very many years , that omitted at least an integral part of publick worship , the singing of gods praise ? christ with his disciples sung a hymn after the sacrament . the jews church made it the chief part of their worship . james prescribeth it us in all our holy mirth , such as the lords day is appointed for , 1 cor. 14.26 . every one had a psalm , and with them no one had a psalm , tho his judgment was for it ; the question was , whether he should forsake them for refusing it : i thought not , because it was better that they had something that was good , than nothing . but your argument would not only unchurch them , but make all sinners that communicated with them : for omissions of great duties are faults , and greater faults than tolerable failings in performance : he that prayeth not at all , doth worse than he that prayeth by a book ; and he that preacheth or teacheth not at all , doth worse than he that readeth a sermon ; so that their total stated omission and opposition to singing , by your false rule , denominated them no worshippers of god , if the whole must be denominated from a part . how many private meetings in london , never sing a psalm for fear of being discovered ? yea , how many seldom read a chapter , but only preach and pray , and sometime administer the sacrament ? must we needs say therefore that they omit all worship ? vi. on such occasions i argued , that if we must not communicate with any parish church because of the faults of the liturgy , it will follow , that we must not communicate with any church on earth that hath as great faults ; and that by this we must renounce communion with all christs body on earth : all the armenians , nestorians , eutychians , copties , abassines , georgians , greeks , russians , papists , yea lutherans , have a more faulty liturgie , or manner of worship , than the english . yea the churches called calvinists have their liturgies and faults : and i instanced in switzerland , because as god hath of late most preserved their peace , so they are taken to be the honestest sort of protestants , that in poverty serve god with soundest doctrine , and least scandal of life , but yet have no proper discipline but the magistrates ? is it a sin to have confederacy or communion with their churches ? to this he plainly saith page 11. it is : that is , all that confederate with them , as churches , are guilty of their error , called erastian : for subjection t● such discipline is the condition of their communion . ans . subjection is an equivocal word : if it were by profession or subscription of consent it were indeed to be guilty of that error ( tho not by a fau●t of the part denominating the whole , to make their worship unlawful , or their churches none ) but if by subjection you mean but joyning in their churches as christian and protestant for doctrine and worship , notwithstanding the defect which they cannot help , yea which they disclaim , bare accusation will not prove this a sin ; but by this we see how much of christs church you are for separating from . 2. for my part i have oft published , that it is not the least part of my charge against popery , that they unchurch almost all the christian world save themselves : but yet they are about a 4th or 3d part of professed christians themselves ; and divers of them do not unchurch the greeks ; but to unchurch or forbid communion with all that are as faulty , as the helvetians and all other protestant churches that have liturgies or partial faults , is that which i dare not be guilty of : i think that to say , that a thousand parts to one of christs church , are none of his churches , is next to deposing him from his kingdom : much like as it would be to say , no part of london is the kings but amen corner , nor any part of england but barnet or brentford . 3. and is it not one of our just accusations of the papists , that they say all the protestant churches are no true churches , and the ministers no true pastors ; and that communion with them is unlawful ? and shall we now justifie them and say as they ( tho not on the same reason , but for a far smaller difference ) ? is this our running from popery ? 4. yea , is it not the great thing that we accuse the superconformists for ? that they make us to be no true ministers or churches ? and are we indeed of the same mind ? one side saith , we are no true ministers for want of bps. ordination , &c. another side saith , you are no true ministers for having communion with the bishops and churches , &c. vii . i mentioned the judgment and practise of the old nonconformists and presbyterians , not as a rule , but as a comparative example . to this he saith , p. 11. you and they might as well own the church of england in the form and constitution as it is established as the parish churches to be particular gospel churches , &c. — p. 12. to say you join with a quatenus , and own not the very constitution and standing of the church , with which you join in the sense the church asserts it , is the greatest equivocation in practice that is : the old nonconformists nor you are to be no presidents to us in this case — so far as the old nonconformists , and the old reforming conformists went forward with reformation to bring the church out of the wilderness , we honour them ; but when they turn back again , and entice the people so to do , we are afraid to tempt god in that manner — p. 14. those ●ld nonconformists that did so , are no presidents to 〈◊〉 ; if they halted and were lame , must we be so ? such communicants are not acceptable to any church , and i know what church would never admit them , were it not to punish and expose them and their profession , as ridiculous and inconsistent with its self : and as for french and dutch , what are they to us , &c. — p. 16 ▪ he calls mr. fenns joining in the liturgy with exception of some part [ the sul●en practice of a half-paced doting nonc●nformist . ans . first to the cause , and secondly to the persons . 1. to call any practice , equivocation , or by any ill name ▪ is no proof that it is so ; nor is here a word of true proof given us : i ask the considerate ; is it in the power of a law-maker , to make all worship and duty to god unlawful by commanding to do it for an unlawful end , or upon false principles ? what if a law said , all people shall worship god , not because the scripture commandeth it , but because the state commands it ? would this make it unlawful to worship god ? i would disown the principle , and go on . what if the law should say , the pastoral office is not of divine right , but humane , must the office therefore be renounced ? and why can such a law any more bind me to judg of church-constitutions by the lawmakers words , rather than by gods word ? suppose that the anabaptists say , that rebaptizing is the true way of church-gathering : is it a sin to communicate with them , if they will receive me when i profess the contrary . i am against the covenant which you defend , as making an independent church : is it therefore a sin to communicate with them , because it is not as constituted by that covenant ? what do parties more differ in of late , than forms , orders , modes and circumstances of church government ; and if they be of many contrary minds , were it twenty , there can be but one of them in the right : and is it unlawful to join with all the rest ? must we needs be sure which of these is in the right ? almost all the churches that i hear of in the world , have their agreed professions published ; the protestants are gathered in the corpus confessionum ; the english church principles and orders are expressed in the book of canons , the liturgy , ordination , the 39 articles , the homilies , the apology , &c. must every one stay from their churches , till he hath read and understood all these books , and be sure that there is no fault or error in them ? what if it be poor men or women that cannot buy all these books ? and what if they cannot read ? whom shall they get to read them all ? and how shall they have time to study them , or capacity to understand them , when we can hardly get them to learn a catechism and anderstand it ? you will say , that is their crime that make all these confessions and books : they will answer , but that 's none of our fault : we made them not , and yet must we not communicate with any church that maketh such ? the old separatists , called brownists , published their confession , and therein owned many parish churches in england , and communion with them : i recited their words in my reasons , &c. but you are gone beyond them : the new ▪ england churches printed their confession , and all there agreed not to it : the english independents published their principles and confessions : and the presbyterians and they agreed in the westminster synods confession , catechism and directory : is every poor man and woman bound to stay from all their churches , ( when for 14 years they had no other ) till they understand all these , and know that they are faultless ? or if there be any fault in any one of all these books , is every one guilty of them that cometh to the churches ? the anabaptists published their confession : the dutch have theirs : many churches agreed with them in the synod of dort. the french have theirs ; the saxons , the helvetians , geneva , the bohemians , the protestants in general had the augustane , and many more have theirs . reader , see with whom these writers will hold communion , who make it unlawful to join with any church that have any fault in their constitutions , or agreed doctrines or orders . let us rise upward , till we come to the apostles days : none of all these churches named , dare profess all their agreements and confession to be without fault , that ever i heard of , except the english , who bind ministers to assent and consent to all things commanded and prescribed in three books and excommunicate those that say their books or ceremonies and government hath any thing contrary to the word of god ; but no lay-man is bound to believe them ; wickliffe , and john h●s , the waldenses , and the bohemians confessions , are not faultless : of the papist , and the s●cinians , we will make no question ; the forenamed churches of greeks , russians , armenians , abassines , nestorians , jacobites , &c. are , alas , past question faulty : the general councils upward from that of trent , basil , constance , &c. to the six first , yea , the four first , which some equal to the four gospels , are far from ▪ being faultless in the judgment of these objectors , and of my self : the arrian and other heretical councils are past question ; even that of nice , the first and best , i suppose he and i think did not well in setling church-power as they did , and forbidding all kneeling on the lords days , in adoration , and other the like : the donatists and the novatians , called the puritans of those times , had faulty agreements ; were it but for bps. and arch-bps . ●e will think them so : this writer can name no one church on the face of the earth orthodox or heretical ( tho aerius called presbyters equal with bps. ) that was not for bishops over presbyters from the year 100 after christ , t●ll the reformation , that ever i could read of : yea , consider whether they were not in the apostles days , when jerome , who most depresseth this degree , saith , that there were such at alexandria chosen by the presbyters from the days of mark : and mark died long before john the apostle : but episcopacy is not all : not only epiphanius but all church history that speaketh of such matters , agreeth , that ( besides the croud of latter ceremonies ) there were certain ceremonies called the customes of the universal church , which all the known churches agreed in , ( even those that differ'd about easter-day , and other such ) that is , 1. cloathing the baptized in white garments . 2. giving them milk and hony to tast . 3. anointing them with oyl . 4. not kneeling in adoration on any lords day , or any other day between easter and whitsunday . there is no notice when these began , so ancient were they , nor of any one church or christian that refused them ; but they were commonly called the traditions apostolical , or customes of the universal church . now i agree with this author , that these things were indeed a deviation from the apostles practice , and ought not to have been thus used : but the question is , whether every christian was guilty of the fault that had communion with any of these churches ? and whether had he then lived , he should have separated from all the churches on earth ? by this you see , that this opinion must needs make men seekers , who say , that the church was in the wilderness , and lost all true ministry , ( and , say they , particular churches , and scripture ) after the first ( or at most the second ) century : and so that for fourteen hundred years christ had no visible kingdom on earth : and consequently , that we have no wiser answer to the papist [ where was your church before luther ] than to say that it was invisible ; that is , that we cannot prove that there was any such thing on earth ; and consequently , that we cannot prove that christ had any kingdom on earth , and was its king ; that is , whether there was any christ in actual church-administration ? and doth separating from the whole visible church-communion agree with the prophecies and precepts of union ? was this church like a grain of mustard seed in its growth ? was all the wonderful works of redemption wrought for no visible society after one or two hundred years , in which a few persecuted ones were visible ? is not this the next step ( and a temptation ) to utter infidelity ? if christ have now no visible church on earth , but the people called brownists or separatists , doth it answer the scripture description of him and his church ? and is it not exposing christianity to the scorn of infidels , so to say ? would not almost all rather turn papists , than believe this ? and be rather of their church , than of none . 2. but let us next speak of the persons . i may speak my thoughts without imposing on you . i think that the major vote is no rule to the minor , nor always is in the right . if a hundred men that understand not greek or hebrew , translate a text one way , and a good linguist another way , i will more suspect their judgment than his . and so in the like case . but if i hear a few odd persons condemn the judgment of the generality that are far better acquainted with matters of the same nature , [ as if school-boys that are but in their accidence , should oppose all the upper forms in expounding horace , or hesiod , or homer ] , which , think you , should i most suspect ? — i say again to you , compare the writings of bucer , peter martyr , calvin , beza , melancthon , chami●r , blondel , dailee , and a bundance such ; and also greenhams , perkins , dr. j●●n r●ignolds , cartwrights ▪ dods , hildershams , hieroms amesius's , payne● , r●l●e●ks , and many such , yea with such conformists as jewels , bp. downames , john downames , davenants , bp. halls , arch-bp . ushers , bp. rob. abbots , dr field● , dr. challoners , dr. airys , &c. i say , compare these with the theological writings , of mr. penry , mr. can , and all other called separat●sts or brownists in their times , and tell me whether these later did manifest more holy wisdom in heavenly things , more skill in all other points of divinity , than the former : if their writings ( giving mr. ainsworth his due honour in hebrew and piety ) were as far below the other , as the lower forms of school-boys are beneath the highest , which should we most suspect to have had the greater or the lesser light , specially when the lower condemn and cut off themselves from communion with all christs known churches on earth for thirteen hundread years . when mr. smith ( and lately a very good man here ) thought none fit to baptize him again , but baptized himself ; was not that singularity a just cause of suspicion ? yet i make not the old nonconformists your rule . viii . i argued also , from the common frailties of us all , that it will be unlawful to communicate with any church on earth , even with those of the objectors mind , if we are guilty of the sins in doctrine , worship and discipline , of all churches that we communicate with . i will aggravate none , nor render that odious which god accepteth : my work is to confute those that do so . but i say , that 1. we have all many errors ; and men use to put their errors into their prayers and preaching 2. do not men use to deliberate more , and study what to write , than what to preach ? and have men reason to be confident that our preaching will be more sounder than our writing ? this author exclaims against me , as popish , arminian , for justification by works , for merit , &c. may it not be expected that i preach as bad as i write ? and is it not then a sin to be my hearer ? can i think that he will not preach as ill as he writeth in this book ? and are all sinners therefore for hearing him ? i promise him that if i know of any parish minister that will usually preach with as much error , reflexion and gall as he here writeth , i will be none of that mans hearers , or usual communicants . but to this he saith , p. 19. we distinguish between the rule of worship , and the administration and performance : — 1. it is not sins of ordinary infirmity . 2. nor sins not foreknown , so as to prevent joining with them , but them that worship god by a false rule , &c. ans . 1. this is the great strength of all his book , that we sin by a false rule , but they sin only against a true rule ; but i think nothing is sin indeed , but that which is against a true rule , even gods word ; making and using a false rule , is therefore sin , because it is against the true rule . most hypocrites are supposed to own a true rule while they are false to it , and sin against it . to sin against knowledge , and an acknowledged rule , is an aggravation of the sin , and such shall be beaten with many stripes : paul opens it to the jews , rom. 2. at large , therefore this will not excuse our communion with such . 2. this reason crosseth the business of the opponent ; for whereas the greatest reason against communion with parish churches is the badness of the communicants , and ministers lives ; these are not the obeying of the law or canons , but disobeying them : the law , called the rule , bids no man swear rashly , lye , be drunk , unclean , slander , rail , &c. nay it commandeth the minister to deny the sacrament to such : ignorance , unbelief , hypocrisie , are not commanded , but forbidden by that rule : ministers break the rule , i● they preach error , or heresie , or against love and peace , and promote not godliness , and mens salvation , with all holy diligence , by doctrine and life ; so that no sins against this is cause of separation , if it be only using a false rule that is , just cause . 3. but what is the false rule ? the word rule maketh all this excuse and accusation of his a meer equivocation : in general , a rule is any thing to which we purposely conform our actions , that they may be right : of this there are divers sorts . 1. the primary rule is the absolute law of god , to which all mens actions should be conformed . 2. subord●nate humane rules : these are of divers sorts . 1. the obliging commands of authority . 1. of magistrates . 2. pastors . 3. parents and masters of families . 4. school-masters and tutors of youth , &c. 2. contracts or agreements of men for concord . 1. gods law is never a false rule , but an erring expositor may make the words the matter of a false rule by putting on them a false sense . 2. just subordinate rules are not false , justly used . 1. magistrates rule either by common laws , or temporary and particular mandates , both being obligatory to duty , and indeed but several sorts of laws , while they use but that authority which god gave them . laws or mandates are just rules . 2. pastors can make duty by ruling-authority for none but the flocks committed to them : they may command what god authorizeth them to command ; whether it be by word or writing , is all one : and whether you will call it a law or not , the name altereth not the case : tho indeed in the general notion , all is true law , which authoritatively by command maketh a subjects duty . it s a true rule when the ruler goeth not beyond his authority ▪ heb. 13.7 , 17 , 24. 1 thes . 5.12 , 17 , &c. 3. the same must be said of parents , masters , tutors , &c. 4. agreements or contracts are rules made for concord by the self-governing power that all men have over themselves : and they are just rules when justly used . 5. besides all these , most make a mans own reason , judgment or conscience , the immediate subordinate rule of his actions . indeed it is more fitly called the discerner of his rule and duty , as the eye is to the body : for it maketh not duty , but discerneth it made : but if any will call the understanding a rule to the will , instead of a guide , we may bear with the impropriety . all this is clear truth . now the question is , how any of these subordinate rules are just or false ? 1. two things god hath not only allowed , but commanded them all to do about religion . 1. to command subjects as gods officers to obey gods laws , and in just cases to punish the breakers of them , in matters within their jurisdiction . and to do this by laws , mandates , judgment and execution . 2. to make subordinate mandates or laws for determining such circumstances as god hath commanded them to determine , by the general law of governing or ruling , and of doing all to unity concord , edification , peace , order , and decency . these things christian-magistrates may do nationally . pastors to their flocks , masters to their families and scholars ; and equals ( pastors and people ) may make fit agreements where they are free : and these rules may be called false or true , in several degrees . 1. it 's gross falsood and usurpation , to set up an office forbidden of god , and false in its very nature . 2. it 's next in degree false , for men of an office of gods institution , to command things utterly out of their calling and jurisdiction , in which they have no power from god mediately or immediately . conscience binds none to formal obedience ( propter authoritatem imperantis ) to either of these ; tho material obedience , and non-resistance , may be duties . the lower degree , is when the office is of god , and the matter is in their power , and not only belonging ad alienum forum ; but they mis-determine it in the manner , not usurping anothers office , but doing their own amiss : tho herein conscience is not bound to obedience ; gratia materiae sub ratione indebiti modi ; yet if the matter be not forbidden of god , obedience may be a duty herein , sub ratione medii , necessary to several ends ; that is , to concord , to honour the governor , to avoid off●nce , and to avoid greater hurt to the church , others , or our selves . but if the thing commanded be forbidden of god , no man must do it . but divers things commanded unlawfully in the manner , may become duties by that command , because they be made thereby needful means of unity , peace , honour to rulers , &c. as aforesaid , which else would have been sin ( as to meet at an inconvenient time or place , to use a translation , metre , &c. less fit . ) now all these being subordinate rules , they bind only subordinately by virtue of gods supreme rule , who made them rulers ( and he is no ruler that can give no rule ) ; even as corporation by laws bind only by vertue of the soveraigns higher law. and tho this author would be the ruler of language so far , as to say that all sinful worship is not false worship , they that use words , as greater masters have long stated the sence , do know , that the falseness is the disconformity to gods supream rule , and that may be in all the degrees forementioned : and rules or worship are both false so far as they are disconform to the law of god. and now wherein is our rule , false and theirs true ? 1. we own no rule of direct immediate obedience to god , nor of any universal or unchangeable duty to god , but what his law ( of nature , or supernatural ) doth make us . we hold that no man hath power to alter gods word , to command any thing against it , nor any thing which god hath appropriated to himself , as to make new conditions of salvation , new sacraments , new laws , as gods , or new duties for themselves , necessary to salvation ; no , nor any thing but what gods own general law doth command or allow them to determine , being left by him undetermined , to their power and rule . we hold that if any ruler go contrary to , and beyond those rules of god , it is their sin , and not ours , and we openly disown it : and so do our rulers in general themselves most expresly in the books of articles , ordination , homilies , apology , &c. binding all ministers to the scripture for the rule of their preaching and living , only infallible , sufficient in all things necessary to salvation ; and that if councils , or any men err or disagree with scripture , they are not to be followed . we openly renounce all false rules , and canons ; but if for such sin against their own profession of scripture-sufficiency , we must renounce communion with all that are guilty , we scarce know the church on earth which we must not renounce . and the opponents in particular . 2. for let us try now whether you have no rule which you call false , as well as false or sinful practice . but i will first take in his fuller explication , left i mistake him . ix . page 37. i roundly assert against you , that tho every church of christ hath the liberty aad priviledge to act prudentially , or make prudential determinations concerning the present use of indifferent things pro hic & nunc , yet to make any standing or binding determination and laws for themselves or other , is altogether unlawful , as highly derogatory to the kingly office of christ , and robbing themselves or others of their granted priviledge , and so a forfeiture of their charter : and so all your by-standing laws and subordinate laws for worship which you talk of , are unwarrantable additions to the word of god. ans . 1. this indeed is round assreting ; but your word is no proof , and here is no better . contraily , 1. those whom christ maketh rulers of his church , and commandeth to do all things , not particularly determined by him , as shall conduce to peace , concord , order , decency , and edification , may rule accordingly by such determinations . but some such there are whom christ maketh rulers of his church &c. ergo , &c. maj. prob. matth. 24. who then is a faithful and wise servant , whom the lord hath made ruler over his houshold to give them meat in due season , &c. 1 thes . 5.12 . know them who are among you , and are over you in the lord , &c. 1 cor. 4.12 . let a man so account of us , as of the ministers of christ , and stewards of the mysteries of god , &c. heb. 13.7 , 17.24 . remember them who have the rule over you , &c. obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account , &c. salute all that have the rule over you , &c. 1 tim. 5.17 . the elders that rule well are worthy of double honour : 1 cor. 14.26 . let all things be done to edifying . 4. let all things be done decently and in order . 33. god is not the author of confusion , but of peace , as in all the churches of the saints . by all this , it is evident that church rulers there must be ; and such successors of the apostles in the ordinary parts of their office as christ will be with to the end of the world , matth. 28.20 . and also in what their rule consisteth . now to the question of imposing : ( i premise , that tho this usurper of a magistry in language will have imposing taken still in an ill sense ; i leave that to him , it is enough for me to tell him that i take it according to the prime signification [ to put a thing on others ] without respect to well or ill doing it . ) 1. i know not whether by every church , he intend a meer voting body of people and pastors by consent , or the pastors alone as the rulers of a voluntary people . 2. i know not whether he take [ prudential determinations ] as distinct from governing obligations , or not . 3. i know not whether by [ present use ] he mean it only for one present meeting , or for more , and for how many and how long : and [ by standing ] how long he meaneth . i grant to him that no man may make universal or unchangeable laws , but temporal and mutable , and only for his own subjects . but i maintain , 1. that pastors may by word or writing make binding commands or determinations to their flocks of the foresaid modes and circumstances of religion and worship . for 1. they are such as are necessary in genere , and the determination to this or that sort disjunctively necessary : somebody must determine them ( and that for more than the present meeting , even statedly ) : and it belongs to the rulers office to do it : none else is fit or hath any other power , than by contract . i have oft enough instanced in particulars . it is not meet that every meeting the people be put to vote where to meet next : and there is no certainty that they will agree ; but some be for one place , and some for another : an ordinary capacious place is necessary : it is the rulers office to appoint it . it 's no sin against christ for him to require them to come to the same place , from year to year , while it is fit . 2. the same i say for a commanding determination of the lecture-days , or times of meeting , which the pastor may prescribe statedly by his office , without the peoples votes . or if all such things were imposed by a major vote on the minor , their vote would be a governing rule to the minor part . 3. while praying with the hatt on , is by the custom of the country a sign of unreverence , the pastors ( or elders that rule well ) may command the flocks by their authority , ordinarily , and not at the present only , to be uncovered at prayer and sacrament in the assembly , without wronging christs power , unless obeying it be wronging it . the same i say of usual kneeling at prayer . 5. if the congregation be called to confess their faith , or renew their covenant with god , the rulers may command all that consent , to signifie it by such a sign , as standing , or lifting up the hand , or subscribing , &c. and they are bound to obey them . 6. i have oft enough instanced in translations , metres , tunes , utensils , ornaments , and many such like . obj. the pastors make no laws . ans . dally not with names : any thing is a law which ruling authority maketh duty : if writing it , maketh a law , they may write it : but a verbal-mandate is one species of a law : and imposeth and determineth , and obligeth to obedience ; and it is sin to disobey , because god commandeth them to obey , heb. 13.17 . and even by the 5th commandment . it doth as truly limit , and oblige when pastors command , as when magistrates do it , tho they force not by the sword. obj. but these are but natural circumstances , and belong no more to worship , than to any other things . ans . it 's a sad thought to me to think how many seem satisfied with such an answer as this . all substances have their accidents , quality , time , place , &c. but yet the accident of one substance is not the accident of another ; the quantity and quality of a man is not the quantity and quality of a toad , &c. when these accidents are adjoyned to worship , they be not accidents of other things . is speaking no part nor accident of worship , because speaking is used in common things ? kneeling is used in other cases : but kneeling in prayer to express reverence , is not common to other things . putting off the hat sheweth reverence to a prince : but to be uncovered at prayer or sacrament is the accident at least of that worship , and not of other things : metre and tunes belong to ballads : but the metre and tune of psalms doth not , but is appropriate to those psalms . time and place belong to all natural actions : but the time and place separated to gods worship is an accident only of that . it is not the natural specification of an act or circumstance , or the generical nature that we speak of ; but the individual accident or circumstance as appropriate to a religious work . is love to god no worship , because love is a natural act ? is praying no act of religion , because we may pray to men ? is eating and drinking no part of the sacrament , because we use them as natural acts for our daily sustenance ? is washing no part of baptism , because we wash at other times : thinking is a natural act , but holy thinking is more : were davids sorts of musick no part or accident of worship , because musick is natural or artificial ? it magnifieth these acts to be applied to worship , and it is a commendation of worship-ordinances that they are suited to nature , and advance and sanctifie it . now at last i come closer to my question : have you no church rulers among you ? no elders that rule well ? is it unlawful to communicate with you , if those elders by mandates which are obligatory to the flock do prescribe days , and hours , temples , or publick places for ordinary worship , and if they command you to use the new translation rather than the geneva , publickly , or prescribe the same metre and tunes , rather than your congregation shall sing , some one psalm , and some another : or if they command them to be uncovered at sacrament and prayer , or to kneel at prayer ? &c. if you take this power from the pastors , and will separate from them for such obliging laws or mandates , you do that very thing which you fiercely talk against ; you destroy or resist christs kingly government by his officers oh what is man ! what are the best of men ! what doth the church and world suffer by them ! the same men that cry up christs kingdom , call it rebellion against him to obey his officers : as if we must depose or disobey the king , unless we disobey all his judges , justices and officers . all the obligatory decisions that the apostles made about their love feasts , anointing the sick , the kiss of love , long hair , covering or uncovering , order of prophecying , and of collections , &c. were not standing laws to us ; nor done by uncommunicable power ; but were temporary laws , and local , and such as their successors , when fit , may make . if you have no such rulers in your churches , you should queston whether your churches have the true order of pastors , as well as you question the parish ministers : do they not want ruling power , as well as theirs ; specially if you deny the very power , and they be but hindred in the exercise . obj. but some may be forced to say , our pastors do nothing , but by the peoples consent . ans . they are their pastors by consent , and rule them as voluntary , and not by force : but their rule and precepts are never less obligatory on conscience by vertue of gods command to obey them : must they prescribe none of the things forementioned , till all have voted it , or consented ? they must command them to consent , and they sin if they disobey , tho they can force none to obey . object . but some may be driven to say , we allow such prescribing power to pastors , but not to magistrates . ans . 1. what power the kings of judah used in worship , david , solomon , asa , jehosaphet , hezekiah , josiah , i need not tell . 2. christ came not to put down kings , but to sanctifie their office : all power is given him : by him kings reign : the kingdoms of the world are his by right : rulers are his ministers for our good : they must punish evil doers , and promote well doing : he commands us to honour and obey them ; they are keepers of both tables : they may drive ministers to their duty , and punish them for mal-administration : tho they may usurp nothing proper to the pastoral office , nor forbid them any such thing , yet such circumstances as belong to the nation , or to many churches , and not to this or that in peculiar , the magistrates may determine : it is of great use , that all the approved churches in a nation , signifie their consent in the same confession of faith ▪ the same anniversary days of humiliation and thanksgiving ( as is done about the powder plot ) and the same translation of the scripture , if not also the same psalm books ; god strictly commandeth concord , and to serve him with one mind and mouth , and to avoid confusion , and division , and discord : what reason can any man give why christs officers appointed to rule by the sword , may not thus discharge their trust ? shall we sin if the law impose a translation , psalm book , or reverent gesture , unless we separate ? is commanded obedience become a sin ? and yet not if a pastor or a ruling majority of people injoin it , or unless we leave all to confusion ? x. here therefore i utterly renounce the opinion that shall hold that such things being lawful when uncommanded , become unlawful when commanded by such as in ministry , magistracy , or families , or schools , are rulers : yea , if the ruler misdo his work , the sin is his ; i must not separate from every kingdom , church , or family that is ill governed : nor am i discharged from obedience in lawful things by the addition of some unlawful commands that destroy not acceptable worship , and turn not our food to poyson : i tell those ministers that publickly charge this on nonconformists , that they must not charge any doctrine of seekers or anabaptists , or such separatists , to be the nonconformists doctrine : i know not one meer nonconformist of that mind : what we of this age thought of ep●scopacy , liturgy , and magistracy , all that would come in and own that cause openly with us , have told the world in our published proposals of 1660 and 1661 : to which we refer them that would know their minds . xi . but when i oft alledged the example of christ and the apostles , this objector and answerer saith , p. 19. we make not christ and his apostles hypocrites ; for we have proved , that christ never joined with false worship , so much as with his presence at the place of it , unless with this intent , to bear witn●ss against it ; nor did he ever advise his disciples so to d● : as for moses chair , it was then christs own institution , and he had th●n no other church or institution on earth . ans . it was cautelously done to pass by the instances of the apostles that neither separated , nor commanded one man to separate from all the faulty churches , rev. 2.3 . notwithstanding the woman jezab●●s doctrine , and that of the nicolaitans , which god hated , and the evil practices ; nor from the church of corinth , where were carnal schisms , defraudings , lawsuits before heathens , incest unlamented , sacrament disorders , even to excess of drink , disorder in church worship , &c. nor from any other faulty churches . meth●n●s th●y that are so strict against any additions in modes of worship , should not so much add or alter scripture , or accuse it of de●●ctiveness , as to suppose the apostles to have culpably communicated with such churches , as co●inth , coloss , ephesus , sardis , laodicea , smy●na , &c. yea and with the jews , who by falsifying the rules , called it unlawful to eat with the gentiles , or to eat what moses law fo●bad , and not to keep their days : pauls accomplishing of his vow in the t●mple , and becoming a jew to the jews , was fully contrary to the opponents d●ctrine . and as to christs practice ; we said before you , that he conformed not to any evil , nor should you but did he not send the lepers to a false ill-called corrupt sort of priests , to do by , and with them , what the law required ? did he not ord●narily joyn in the synagogues in their worsh●p ? could he have leave constantly to teach there , if he had there used to cry down their ordinary worship ? had the ceremonious pharisees no ill forms nor ceremonies in their worship ? again , i say , their long prayers which were the cloak of their oppression , were either ●xt●mporate , or forms of liturgy . if extemporate , then the worst of hypocrites may constantly use long extemporate prayers , and it had been no injury to the spirit in them , to have perswaded them to use christs form instead of them . if they were liturgies ▪ then christ did not separate from such ; no nor reprove them at all , when he reproveth the hypocritical abuse of them : yea , seemeth to commend them , while he nameth them , as a cloak to cover evil , which nothing is fit for , that is not good . obj. he had no oth●r church ? ans 1. then most in england m●y go to the parish churches , where they have no other church to go to . 2. but christ had twelve apostles , and 70 , or 72 other teachers , and many more disciples ; were these no church , nor matter for a church ? xii . obj. page 4. god hath not left it in our power to communicate with any society , when they make that the condition of my communion , which i am convinced of to be sin to me , that i question whether it be lawful or no , &c. ans . how oft have i answered this , without any reply ? 1. if they make your consent to any sin , the condition of your communion , you must avoid it : but if they put no sin on you , to be present when they sin , is a condition to all church communion , and to your own praying , who sin in all your self ; you before excepted sins of ordinary infirmity , as not warranting separation : and when did you ever prove that the composing and imposing of the liturgy , ( much more the obedient use of the lords-day part ) is not a sin of infirmity , as much as slandering it and the churches , and writing such books as yours ? accusing is not proving . 2. if your taking it for sin be true , you must forbear it : if you mistake it for sin , which is duty , ( per se or per accidens ) you sin against god , and truth , by your mistake , and by your omission . god bindeth you to alter your judgment ; and so he doth , if you take an indifferent thing for sin , tho here it is safest to forbear . an erring conscience is no lawmaker ( less then a magistrate ) , but a misconceiver , and doth , ligare non obligare . xiii . obj. but none of the things are indeed worship , which you say men may command ? ans . that man shall be none of my guide , that makes questions of bare names to seem to the people , as if they were about the matter named . [ they are such accidents of the worship , which god himself commandeth , as are done in the outward expression of reverence and honour to god , and the more decent and edifying performance of his own institutions . ] this is the description of them , ( kneeling , being uncovered , swearing with outward signs , singing in tunes , metre , &c. ) . agree to the thing , and call these worship or no worship , as you please . you say , false worship is no worship ; if so , it is no bad worship ; but all faulty worship is not null . xiv . as for his general talk of me , how much i have promoted popery , and being for justification by works , and merit , &c. i give him leave to ease his stomach without an answer , and all those to be deceived by him that will take his word , and not read mine ; especially , my treatise of imputed righteousness . page 9. he saith , when the scripture speaks of justification by faith : doth any sound divine or christians understand it of the act of believing , but that its the obj●ct of faith that justifieth ? ans . see how strictly these men stick to scripture , that will have it the sole law of circumstances , and yet can deny it , as expositors , at their pleasure ; when paul over and over so often saith , that we are justified by faith , and faith is imputed for righteousness ; and christ saith , thy faith hath saved thee . it is not faith that they mean , but christ . it is faith in christ . there is no faith , but the act or habit of believing , rom. 3.21 . the righteousness of god , which is by faith of jesus christ , on all that believe . 25. through faith in his blood . 26. the justifier of him which believeth in jesus : many ways such will be odiously perverted , if you put christ instead of faith ; we are justified by no meritorious cause , but christs righteousness : but that righteousness justifieth not infidels , nor any but qualified receivers ; and faith is that qualification . is not this true ? and is it not enough ? if you would preach or write censurious disputes , whether it be the physitian , or the medicine , or the patients taking it , that cureth him ; or the meat , or the giver , or the eating it , that feedeth men , take your course : i had rather answer that , and most of your books w●th groans and tears , than with disputing . xv. as for his threatning to open my faults as fast as i discover them . i may save him the labour , and lament them my self . two i will confess now , besides all heretofore . 1. i fear i did sometime by connivence , and by too oft preaching against the faults of the bishops about 1640 , encourage some that were set upon accusing and separating , over much . tho i ever disliked and opposed that spirit , and fore●●w what divisions and sins attended . 2. tho , when i took the league and cov●nant , it was not imposed , but offered to volunteers , ( and i never gave i● but to one , and kept the countrie from taking it ) ; yet seeing now , what i saw not then , i repent that i took it . ( tho being taken , i dare not say that it bindeth not as a secondary self-obligation to that which god bound me to before . ) my reasons are ; 1. because , as after imposed , no knowing man can believe that the thousands of ignorant people that took it , who never understood the controversies of prelacy , could take it in truth , judgment , and righteousness , and so must sin . 2. because it cut the nation in two parts , on pretence of union , and engaged us against such excellent persons , as vsher , davenant , and against the greatest half of the land , when we should have united on the terms of the b●ptismal covenant . 3. because , being before by god and our allegiance sufficiently ●lliged to the king , by a further vow of mens own making against his will , they entangled the consciences of the people about the meaning and the obligation of it ; some thinking it bound them not to him ; and other , that it bound them to fight for him , and yet to oppose the prelacy that he was for . and now the law for corporations binds men to declare that there is no ob●igation at all from that o●th ( either for the king , or against any sin ) . xvi . there are also more than one of my opponents , who tell me , that because i live in prosperity my self , and suffer not , therefore i am insensible of the case of suffer●rs , and add affliction to the afflicted , and have not due compassion on them . ans . if this be true , it is a great sin . but 1. why do the same men accuse me for perswading men to avoid sufferings , as they think , by ill means ? it is indeed to save men from suffering by mistake for that which was their duty , to the injury of others , and to reserve their patience for better uses , being like enough to have need of it all . 2. i thank god i am so far from being insensible of the sufferings of the church of christ throughout the world , that i may say with paul , rom. 9.1 . i have continual sorrow in my heart for the wars , blood , c●uelties exercised on them , and much more for their own sin . and sure all the wrath that is agai●st me for labouring to save this land from division , self-destroying and suffering , 1661. and since , might have been avoided , had i been so self-saving as the accusers feign me . 3. i thank god my suff●rings have been far less than i expected or deserved of god , and not worthy to be called sufferings in comparison of thousands in foreign lands . and i humbly thank the king that they have been no greater ; but if they had , all had been now almost at an end . i am not willing to name them , lest it seem to savour of impatience , but remembring pauls example to such accusers ( to the corinthians ) i will briefly say , 1. from 1639. to 1660. i suffered more assaults and oppositi●n than some of them , by divers penalties for divers duties against iniquity . 2. i think i was the first silenced since the bishops return . and the hot displeasure against me for my pac●ficatory labour 1660. and 1661. is not unknown . 3. enquire whether there be more virulent and voluminous accusations printed against me , or any one of them . 4 i have had no p●storal maintenance these 23 years , and no church to maintain me , nor any stipendary lecture ; and for about 15. years i received no gift of money from any , but one man , which i could not without incivility refuse . 5. when i went twice a day to their church at acton , i was sent to the common gaol ( accused for a sermon for meekness and obedience , and submission to government ) and when i built a chappel , it cost me about 20 l. to get a minister out of the prison ( that had formerly been imprisoned for the kings service ) for preaching but one sermon there , when i was twenty miles off . 6. all that i had , was distrained on , and taken from me , all my books , and the very bed i lay on , for preaching after ( though , bona fide , they had been on just considerations given , or made over to another , and were not mine , but the present use of them only reserved to me ) and this by many warrants , as convict by the oaths of i know not whom , nor when , nor could ever know my accuser or witness , nor was ever summoned to speak for my self , much less to examine the witnesses . 7. i have been put in city and countrey to remove my habitation about twelve times , and my person twenty , in the midst of my pains , to my great cost and trouble . 8. how many thousand pounds my conscience hath cost me in the loss of a bishoprick ( by the lord chancellor offered ) since 1661. besides all other losses and charges , i leave you to compute , and ask you which of you hath lost more ? tho i acknowledg with thankfulness to god that i never wanted food or raiment . 9. and while i am now writing for parochial churches and communion , and know no law of the land that i break , i am hated ; and while i keep my bed in pain , or my couch , there are new assaults which i think not fit to publish . 10. and all this is but as a flea-biting in comparison of the sufferings which i carry about me by continual pain or langour through age and many uncurable diseases : and under the expectations of death , how small a matter is it to me , whether i dye in a gaol for my duty to god , or in my hired house , out of which i have very few times gone these two years , but it hath been a prison to me . what difference but conceit and consent ? if our rulers think it for the interest of any cause or party that i dye in prison , i shall acknowledg gods will in the effect of theirs , and it shall not be in their power to make me suffer for any thing but my duty to god ( besides faults long ago pardoned , and common humane infirmities ) . and it is not mens calling duty by the name of the most odious sins , that depriveth martyrs of their reward with god. the false imputation of sin by men , was not the least part of the sufferings of christ and his apostles , and the martyrs in all ages . xvii . and because others as well as i , have need of such admonition , i will tell my brethren , that our chief work is ( the same with j●bs ) to frustrate the tempter , and see that in all this we sin not , nor charge god foolishly : and he that only triumpheth in suffering in conscience of his innocency , and doth not know that suffering hath its proper temptations , and studyeth not wisely how to escape them , will suffer more by himself than by all his enemies . i will therefore tell you what are the temptations here which i fear and watch against . 1. lest the injuries of men should destroy my due charity to them : tho its true that the setled study and labour of some , for factious or carnal ends , be to destroy christian love , and serious godliness , and the souls , bodies , and estates of the most innocent who they think stand in their way , ( and falsehood , hatred and destruction are the devils work and image ) and no man must extenuate such crimes , john 8.41 , 42. yet diabolisme is not to be imputed to all that men suffer by ; much less to our govornours , whom we must honour : paul himself persecuted in ignorance ; and christ said , they know not what they do ? much less must we blame others , if truly the cause be only in our selves . 2. much more must we watch against desires of revenge , or call for fire from heaven , or imitate any that injure us , by requiring evil with evil , but see that we forgive as we would be forgiven . if they be impenitent , and god forgive them not , their suffering will be heavy enough . 3. we must watch against blinding passions , that it carry us not into contrary extremes , that we may be far enough from sin ; and so lest we fall into sin on the other side . too few can keep to the line of truth ; most reel like drunkards from side to side . 4. we are much in danger of biassed study ; never studying impartially what may be said against us , and for our opposers , but only all that may be said for us against them . 5. men that have a good cause are too apt to betray and spoil it by an ill manner of defending it , by mixt errors , ill arguments or passions , to the hardening of the adversaries and afflictors . 6. we must take heed that we fear not suffering wrong , more than doing wrong . he that doth the wro●g is a far greater sufferer or loser , than he that is wronged . our study must be , that we neither think , wish , speak , or do any wrong to our adversaries and afflictors . 7. we must watch lest the great wickedness of any adversaries should be so much in our eye , as to tempt us to make light of our own sin , because it is not so great as theirs . 8. and we must watch lest the conscience of our good cause or innocency to man , should make us foget our many sins against god , for which he may permit men by injury to afflict us . 9. we must watch lest we judge of the cause by the person , and should take truth to be falshood , and good to be evil , because bad men or adversaries own it ; or lest we take falshood to be truth , and evil to be good , because good men hold it ; and lest in love or pity we justifie the s●n of any sufferers . 10 but we must specially take heed lest fleshly interest and love of r●ches , liberty or life , should bias and blind our judgments , to take any thing to be lawful which we think is necessary to our quietness and safety , and to use sinful means to avoid danger and sufferings . these are my studies , and i think them necessary to all . and the rather when ( it grieveth my heart to see , so ) many carryed by suffering so far from unity , charity , and moderation , that they even joyn with those whom they sharpliest accuse , ( tho by other reasons ) to do their very work , and to destroy that which they think they are promoting . for instance , 1. they blame the papists and such conformists for saying that the ministers of the reformed churches are no true ministers : and they say the same . 2. they blame them for saying their churches are no true churches . and they say the same . 3. they blame them for recusancy , and saying it is unlawful to communicate with them ; and they say the same . 4. they blame them that silence ministers , and forbid and hinder them from worshipping god. and they themselves disswade all the land from all publick church-worship , where none but with those that use the liturgy can be had . 5. they justly blame love-killing reproachful sermons . and they write love-killing reproachful books . 6. they justly blame false accusers of particular persons , and they ●●lsely accuse almost all the churches on earth , as no true churches . 7. they are justly for mutual forbearance , and against cruelty ; and they unjustly aggravate the faults of almost all church-worshippers on earth , as so odious that it must be separated from ; and in a sort excommunicate them 8. they fear popery is ready to take possession of the land and church , and they exhort all protestants to forsake all the publick churches , which are the garison of the protestant cause , that so the gates may be set open , and the adversaries may find the houses ready swept and garnished , or the garison emptied for their coming . 9. they are against the ejecting of the ministers 1662. and yet crying down a comprehension , they would not have them restored , unless it were on terms that will take in them also ( and who knoweth whom ? ) 10. yea , the very top of popery is to appropriate all power of church-government and worship to the clergy , and to make magistrates therein but the clergies executioners , saying they are only for civil government , for the body , but the pope and clergy only for religious government of the church , and for the souls . and some called by dividing names among us , say , that christ only and his ministers have power in such matter● , and that princes sin if they command but a translation , a reverent gesture , a church-ornament , and such circumstances ; and that it 's a sin to obey them . when i see that exasperation by afflicters hath cast some sufferers into such self-contradicting ways , i will set on my heart and judgment a double watch in sufferings and abuse . and now reader i again say , that tho i was dragg'd to this sort of work as against my will , i thank god ( and my sober sort of opponents ) for calling me to it , that before i dye i might explain my writings , and not by writing only against one extreme , leave them behind me as snares to tempt men to the other extreme . and i here leave my testimony again against all malignity that would charge these errors on the innocent for a cloak of hatred , and cruelty , and oppression , that i know not one meer nonconformist that holdeth any of these errors ; and i verily believe that the independents that i am acquainted with , are true servants of christ ; and many called anabaptists , sober , godly christians ; and that some called separatists retain christian charity , and meerly for fear of sinning , flye too far from others . and as for all the rest , it is not mens calling them all dissenters , nor their suffering together , that can make the innocent responsible for the faulty , who perhaps do more against their mistakes , than ever such accusers did ( to cure them ) . and i must tell the abaddons , that the opposition that hath been raised against them among those that i was acquainted with before 1641 , and 1642 , was caused chiefly by the badness of those that made it their trade to preach against strict and serious obedience to god , as puritanism , and hypocrisie , and made it the ladder of their aspiring ambition to make such odious , and to hunt with jealous severity those that used for mutual help in the ways of salvation , to pray together ( especially if they fasted ) or consulted how to obey gods law : justacting over the part of the bps that martin separated from , described by sulpitius severus , rendering all suspected of priscillianism that were more than others in reading the scripture , fasting and praying ) and clapping on the back with encouragement the drunkards and prophane ignorant rabble , who in every town were the haters of the godly conformists and nonconformists ; and making these the instruments of their malice , and praising them , and the multitude of ignorant , reading priests , as more worthy subjects , than men fearing god. ri. hooker in his preface describeth these ; and he that readeth his europae speculum , may know that it was no better conformists that his most beloved pup●l , sir edwin sandys was against , while he was one of the zealous parliamentarians . it 's true that many were very hot against bishop laud and the arminians , and against dr. heylin , and dr. pockington , for proving sunday no sabbath , and calling the table an altar , and the ministers , priests , and the sacrament a sacrifice . blame not men that had read of their principles and practice , how rome is a leech that must live on blood , and cannot stand without it , if they were afraid of coming thither again , or drawing too near it . upon my knowledg , the debauchery and malignity of many that hunted them , and would not let them stay at home in peace , and the terror of two hundred thousand murdered in ireland , was it that drove most that ever i knew into the parliaments army : and fear doth often drive men to seek for self-defence to that which seemeth next at hand . had those whom they feared been such as their functions obliged them to be , men of holiness , love and peace , they would have been less prejudiced against the rest ; they bore easily with dr. chappel , mr. may●en , and some other godly charitable men that were reputed arminians . i here adjoin it to my confessions : 1. that i thought worse of that called arminianism than i should have done : ( and have proved in my catholick theology , ( not yet writ against by any that i know of ) that the difference is not in any great and intolerable error on either side ) . 2. that the practice of them that prophaned the lords day , and the malignity of their abettors , made me too much offended at the books that called the lords day no sabbath , and the ministers , priests , and the table , an altar , and the sacrament , a sacrifice : for i now know that these allegorical names were usual with the best of the ancient churches without contradiction : and that the lords day is indeed never called the sabbath in the new testament ; and that the word sabbath in the bible signifieth a day of ceremonial rest , which was a jewish ceremony ; and that all such are by paul said to be put down , and that the lords day is a day of holy assemblies and rejoicing in spiritual , evangelical worship . ignorance and prejudice in these controversies prevailed , not from argument , but from the experience of the quality of too many that opposed them : they thought it a most improbable thing , that god should illuminate vicious , worldly haters of godliness , and desert those that most desired to please him . and of late times , what abundance have been driven from the publick churches , by those that rail at them when they come there , and would get the birds into their net by throwing stones and bawling at them ; and would get the fish to take the bait , by beating the waters . the bishop of worcesters silencing me , and preaching as he did , and the imprisonment of many of the people after , affected my old hearers with so much distast of that sort of men , that all the writings and perswasions i could use , would not reconcile them , nor scarce keep them from falling out with me for my perswasions : and now they have a worthy , pious , preaching bishop , a man of love and peace , and a good minister , they all crowd the church , and are like to fall in love with such bishops . and i must testifie , that with the generality of the nonconforming laity , i never found , but it was good preaching and good living that won their love : and they will honour and follow such men , whether bishops , conformists , or nonconformists . xv. since the writing of this , i understand that some timerous persons have been afraid to communicate in publick , or joyn with the liturgy , by hearing that some that have done it , have been so troubled in conscience , that they have fallen into despair , and a doleful state of trouble . to this i answer , 1. you shall never prove that i have perswaded any minister , to give christs body and blood as a drench to the unwilling , or to make the sacrament of love , the instrument of malice or cruelty , or a snare to strangle souls . it must be that offence must come , but wo to them by whom it cometh . the old church made men beg for church-communion ; if any withdraw from it , and excommunicate themselves , they did not send them to goal for their conversion , to force them to say , that they repent , and to force them to communion . 2. but i must say , that these ministers or people that have so ill taught these troubled souls ( by doctrine or example ) as to tempt them to take their duty ( or a lawful thing ) for so deadly a sin , are far from being guiltless of their trouble , distraction or destruction . if any should make them believe that it were such a dangerous thing to pray by a book , to sing davids psalms , to communicatie with presbyterians , not to be rebaptized , not to keep the saturday sabbath , &c. and then , when he hath affrighted one to make away himself in melancholy despair , should use this instance as an argument to affright away others also from their duty ; i should think that he were too blame : this were not by good words and fair speeches , but by bad words and deeds , to deceive the hearts of the simple , in causing divisions and offences . 3. i believe i have had with me in my time many scores that have had such melancholly terrors , without any such cause ; and must the matter of their trouble therefore be proved faulty ? i have known those that for many years could have no peace of mind , while they continued orthodox and religious ; and at last hearing irreligious sadduces , turned ●ilthy , and ranters , and were never under trouble more ( that could be perceived ) but boasted of their peace . who knoweth not that melancholly maketh many of the most sound and blameless persons , like spira , a weary of their lives , thorough desparation . 4. i can tell these objectors of eminent ancient godly men , that long forbore publick communion , and at last used it , and have had more comfort and edification , than ever they had before ; and the more for breaking through all the sharp censures of their former company , in obedience to their consciences herein : and when they have seen a scandalous person with them at the sacrament , have gone with humility , love , and tears , and told him of his sin and danger , and had such success as hath comforted them more than avoiding that communion ever did : yea , i know those that being threatned by violent pastors , that use dissenters with rigor , have humbly and submissively so pleaded with them from scripture and experience , against that spirit and way , as hath overcome them , and melted them into a more tender and peaceable mind and course . a postscript on a book of mr. j. f's . since the writing of all foregoing , i have received another book sent me by j.f. whether he will be angry if i expound this j. faldo , i cannot tell ; i read it over to see if there were any thing in it that should change my judgment : but i will not promise to do so by any more such . nor will i so much as tell the reader what my judgment said of it in the reading ; much less write down the answers which readily offered themselves to my understanding as i went on ; for it would but more provoke him , i see , and do the reader little good , unless by helping him to lament the churches case through the infirmities of such as i and he are ; and the more patiently to bear all our present sufferings , by considering how unable we are to agree what to chuse for our selves , if we had our wills , and how far we should be from desired concord . i will not write a book to contend on the question , whether mr. faldo or i be the wiser or better man : i am conscious of so much ignorance and badness , that if it may edifie the reader , let him think of me as ill , as mr. faldo and all such men would have him : if he have a good cause , i wish the reader may be of his mind : if not , i find not my self obliged to talk on against such writers any further , for his rescue ; nor do i think i can say any thing herein , which at his rate mr. faldo cannot answer . i only say , that he and such other have satisfied me , that the liturgy-vvorship in the common lords day office is comparatively purer than the vvorship of many is like to be , who oppose it . his counsel is good , to know what the vvorship is before i consent to it : i have tried what is in the liturgy ; i concurred with many better men , 1661 in telling the vvorld , how far we could approve or use it . i find in it much good , and in the ordinary lords day common service , no fault that should alienate me from conjunction with the church therein . to talk of faults in baptizing , burial , marrying , &c ▪ is to say nothing to this point ; i never saw any of these used since i joined with the church in the lords-day vvorship : but how to try mr. f. his vvorship before-hand , i know not he saith , that if we will be at the cost of it , we may have better worship . and tho he seem displeased for being called a consenter to my catholick communion , either he consented that the parish-church-worship should rather be used than none , or else ( which i suspect ▪ ) when i have read his book , i cannot understand so much as what he is for or against ; what he meaneth by a meeting of four , whether he take it for a church , i know not : i take it not for a church , that hath no minister or sacrament : and if he know of so many score , or hundred thousand nonconformable ministers as may guide all the people in england , as such churches of four , i do not : and if communion in the liturgy be simply unlawful , it is so to all the land. i think there are millions in the kings dominions , that can have no other church-worship than with the liturgy , at what rate soever they would purchase it . if his conceits of my self contradictions were as true as they are false , i will tell him other reasons of what he counteth unaccountable , than that i wrote one book in 1659 , and another in 1684. i am now 25 years elder than i was then ; and it s a shame to learn nothing in so many years : i am more above all worldly hopes than he is : i am past all capacity of them . i have less cause of fear than he : they will hardly confine me to a prison narrower than my bed and couch . my glass is almost run : if i be not more apprehensive of my speedy account , and it awe me not to own nothing but the truth , without dawbing with one extream or other , i am much to blame . and i have seen some more of the experience of both extremes ( tho alas i saw too much before ) . and after all , comparing all together , i leave posterity my thoughts . 1. that i had rather the church had a liturgy ( to make all foreknow what worship they meet for ) with free prayer also in its place , than to have either alone . 2. if they must be separated when the minister is of tryed soundness and ability ; i had rather have his free prayer alone . but for many others , i had rather have the liturgy alone . and for instance , mr. faldo hath oft told me , that his church at barnet ( as i twice said before ) not only omitted , but renounced or opposed all singing of psalms for many years ; that many of them were of such ill opinions , that he was put to much work to save them from being quakers ( and at what cost they can now have church-meetings when he hath left them , i know not ) . for mr. faldo to hold up such a church even to suffering , and to write against communion with the liturgy , where there are able godly ministers , is either erroneous partiality in him , or i am blind in my unwilling ignorance . to which i further add again , that i cannot expect that men preach sounder doctrine than they studiously write ; nor that they pray more soundly than they preach ; and if mr. faldo , and all such writers , so pray , and so preach , and so live , ( much more if also their churches have such maimed worship as aforesaid , and some of them unordained ministers , and many churches men of many contrary doctrines ) i take the common-prayer book worship and communion , to be much purer than theirs . the lord make our successors wiser , better , and more peaceable than we are . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a27068-e15820 § 1. an inquirie and ansvver of thomas vvhite his discoverie of brovvnisme. by francis iohnson pastor of the exiled english church at amsterdam in holland johnson, francis, 1562-1618. 1606 approx. 256 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 55 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a04541) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 20072) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1314:03) an inquirie and ansvver of thomas vvhite his discoverie of brovvnisme. by francis iohnson pastor of the exiled english church at amsterdam in holland johnson, francis, 1562-1618. white, thomas, fl. 1605. discoverie of brownisme: or a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the english company of the seperation remayning for the present at amsterdam in holland. [16], 92 p. g. thorp?], [amsterdam : 1606. imprint from stc. in response to: white, thomas. a discoverie of brownisme: or a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the english company of the seperation remayning for the present at amsterdam in holland. reproduction of the original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of 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keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-01 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2005-01 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an inqvirie and ansvver of thomas vvhite his discoverie of brovvnisme . by francis iohnson pastor of the exiled english church at amsterdam in holland . psal. 55.12.13.14 . suerly myne enemy did not defame me : for i could haue 〈◊〉 it : neither did mine adversarie exalt himself against me : for i would have hid me frō him . but it was thou ▪ o man , even my companiō , my guide , & my 〈…〉 which delighted in consulting together , and went into the house 〈…〉 companions . 1606. to the christian reader , grace and peace from christ our lord & saviour . two sorts of adversaries , the church still hath among men . the one , of such as be without : the other , of such as arise from within the church it self . both heavie enemies : but the latter , far the more grievous , many wayes . by both of them haue we ( as others before vs ) ben exercised , a long time , and in straunge maner . yet in and against them all , hath the lord by his power and of his mercy hitherto preserved vs , and i trust will so do vnto the end . of late hath risen vp one thomas white , despitefully reviling vs , and wickedly blaspheming the name and tabernacle of the lord. a man , that was himself heretofore separated from the church of england , holding the prelacy ministery worship and confusion thereof to be antichristian : vvho also was a joyned member of a church in the vvest parts of england professing the same faith with vs : and afterward coming over to amsterdam , and desiring to be partaker of the lords supper with vs , did in our publick meeting before vs all , with his owne mouth , testify his consent with vs in the same faith we professe : from which he is now revolted : and of which he is become a notable adversarie : setting himself tooth and nayle ( what he can ) against vs and our cause : and that both privately & publickly , as now himself hath manifested to the world . so as in himself ( though it may seem straunge ) are found both the extremities , whereof he speaketh in his preface , which bring no small annoyance to the church of god , hypocrisie , and prophanenes . his hypocrisie , now layd open , in the particulars aforesaid , and many other knowen vnto vs concerning him . his prophanenes , plainly appearing , both in forsaking the truth of christ ( as esau sold his birthright for a messe of pottage ) and in oppugning it in this maner : which sheweth in him a despising , if not a despiting also of the trueth : as esau contemned the birthright , when he had sold it . and thus the instance , which he would falsely give in others , may fitly be observed in himself , for both the extremities aforesaid : as also that howsoever they seem to differ the one from the other , yet indeed they strengthen & harden each other , with a mutuall reciprocation , and proceed also the one from the other , howsoever for a while envy do cloak it self vnder the name of zeale &c. vvhich that it may yet the better appeare both in and from himself , i will here set down a letter of his , written while he held our cause , to a minister of the church of england : and ( to vse his owne wordes ) as christ alleadged against the pharisees , the example of their owne children , that they might be their iudges : so will i against himself his own writing & dealing , that they ( as his children ) may be his judges . the letter is this which followeth , taken from his own originall copie . a letter written by thomas vvhite , to mr i. a. minister at m. in vviltshire . ps. 7.9.59.2.140.5 . oh let the malice of the wicked come to an end , but guide thou the just . deliver me from the wicked doers , and save me from the bloudy men . the proud have laid a snare for me , and spred a net with cords in my pathway , and set grennes for me . selah . sir , the pillars of the kingdome of darknes haue ben especially three , ignorance , falsehood , and violence . how far your self have waded with others in these , in your late dealing against vs , by sermons conference & letters , let the sequele shew . 1. for the first , you in conference at w.vv. would vndertake to prove the reading ministery to be a true ministery , though you refused to iustify your owne , and that by this argument . whosoever preaches the gospell is a true minister , but the reading minister preach the gospell , therefore a true minister . for answer to your argumēt , i denyed the first propositiō , especially in that sence as you took preaching for any publishing of the gospel , which you presently left without defence . but if the reading ministery be a true ministery , then is it the ordinance of god , and if it be the ordinance of god , then may not the magistrate remove such a ministery vnder any pretence without sinne . an ignorant proctor , for an ignorant ministery , an vnfit tyme for such a doctrine of desolation , to keep darknes still in the land , when the lord hath shaken his sword against it . 2. your ignorance further appeares in the expounding of the parable you entreated on math. 13.24.1 . in expounding ( field ) for the church , whē as , though there by ( kingdome of heaven ) be meant the church , yet by ( field ) must be meant the world , for the kingdome of heavē is in the ( field ) except the church should be in the church , or our saviours exposition were vntrue , verse 38. where field is expounded to be the world . 2. in that you would vndertake to expoūd a dark parable not by playne places of scripture , but contrary to the tenour of the scriptures , and ordinance of god both in church & common wealth , for if by ( tares ) be meant open offenders , which may not be plucked vp , then may not open offenders be cast out in the church , nor put to death by the magistrate . 3. you said in conference that all that preached the gospel , act. 8.4 . had extraordinary gifts , which you went about thus to prove . philip. act. 8.5 . had extraordinary gifts , therefore all the rest had . which argument you could not then nor ever will be able to prove , the very recitall of it is sufficient answer vnto it . 4. and your insufficiency was even confessed by * one of your owne fellowes ( as i heard ) who when he heard that you were to preach on that parable , said that he marvelled that you would vndertake it being so vnfit : he would some more sufficient man would vndertake it : with many such words tending to the like effect . thus have you shewed your self not alone ignorāt , & so acknowledged after a sort by some of your selves , but also are become an vpholder and pleader for darknes in others . but if your dealing had ben alone of ignorance your fault had not ben so great , but you have added falsehood & deceit therevnto , as may appeare : 1. in that you were not ashamed openly in the pulpit ( which you made the chaire of falsehood ) to teach that excōmunicatiō had no ground from the 18. of math. contrary to the coherence , drift , circumstances , consequence of that scripture , & by cōference also with other scriptures : as shal be shewed if you will vndertake the defence of your own doctrine . in that scripture is shewed a power which christ hath given to his church , ver . 17.20 . for the removing out of their communion , ver . 17. such as remayne vnrepentant and obstinate in their sinnes , ver . 16.17 . and therefore excommunication . to what end should this doctrine tend , if not to bereave the church of that power which christ hath left for the sweeping of vncleannes out of the house of god. but this shall be further shewed , from whose breasts you suckt this poisoned milk , which now you give others to drinck : if you will not leave the doctrine to the wide world without defence . 2. in that you trussed vp another false doctrine on the same scripture , that the party offēder mat. 18.17 . should be an heathē & publican only to the party first offēded , not to the whole church : whē as the whol church hath as much cause to be offended as the party that was first offended , yea & more cause thē that party had at first to be offended , by reason of the continuance in his sinne , which the offender hath added to his former sinne . if you had vnderstood what had bene meant by ( trespasse , verse 15 ) you would not haue thus abused this scripture : as may also be further shewed . in this point , one of your ministers , but of greater wisdome & discretion then your self hath signifyed his contrary iudgment to you thereon ( as i have heard ) as knowing i doubt not the falsehood and vanity of your assertion thereon . yea i dare vndertake that many of your our owne ministers of best reformed iudgments , will be ashamed of these black drops which falls from your lipps . 3. in that you published in like sort that though open offenders did communicate with true christians , yet were they not defiled thereby , traducing mr iohns : 〈◊〉 affirming the contrary . and yet when you came to the triall of it in conference between you and my self , you said your meaning was of a true christian in the sight of god , not of a true christian in the sight of men , as he is a member of the visible church , and that such a christian could not sinne or be defiled with sinne in that he was regenerate or borne of god , which was never the question betweene vs , and so a true christian did not sinn though he should commit idolatry , adultery , or the like , in that sence that you tooke sinning : yea a true christian might as much be defiled with sinne in communicating with open offenders , as by committing adultery , for any thing you have said in that conference , which is vnder your hand . this was your miserable shifting , i feare against the light of your conscience . yet mr ies. a few dayes after , in a conference betweene mr pow. and himself at mr bayl. on the same question took it in an other sense , yea in that sence , as which you said you meant not , neither could i bring you vnto it , as may appeare in that conference . such confusion of languages doth well become the builders of babell . 4. for that in your letter to mr st. s.w.w.n. dated the 20. of ian : 1603. you would vndertake , though no other would assist you , yet your self , by word , or writing , or howsoever , against whomsoever , to iustify your ministerie , doctrine , &c. and yet by word in conferring you refused to iustify your ministery , whē you were provoked therevnto : yea when i offred to prove it false in those particulars you mentioned , and to be separated from . i offred also to prove your doctrine false on the 18. of mat. and 13. of mat. but you refused . i desired that i might propose one argument concerning the question between vs , but you would deale no further , except you might put downe some proof further of that which we never doubted of : viz : that a true christian in the sight of god did not sinne in the regenerate part as he was borne of god. was this timorous & fearefull dealing answerable to your bombasted boastings , let others iudge . these be the doctrines of desolation which you do scatter : let others now iudge what cause we haue to account you a false prophet , and they in miserable case that are led by such blind guides . did you not tremble to wish in the pulpit that the lord would stop your mouth if you spake not the truth . your dealing hath confirmed vs , and bene a meanes ( through gods goodnes ) to gaine others to the trueth we professe , and for your self remember seing you care not what you teach , nor how you take the name of god in vaine , that which is written , ion. 2.8 . that they that wayt vpon lying vanities forsake their owne mercy . 3. and yet least the measure of your iniquity were not full already , you add violence & persecution to your former evill dealing . when you are not able to stand by the word you try whether you can suppresse vs by the sword . 1 your self would not suffer mr pow. to make answer to you at slaughtens . fearing least your falsehood should be discovered thereby . 2 afterward mr ies. by letters intreated him not to make you answer publikly , that you might speak what you would without controlement . 3 and seing these meanes would not prevayle , your self to shew whose servant you are , with others went vp againe & againe as if much paynes had bene too little to procure a warrant to attach him , & will. we. told mr pow. that mr aw . was the procurer of the warrant . thus do you by falsehood & violence seek to vphold your ruinated kingdome , when truth & verity hath forsaken her . and you shew yourself in deed to be an edomite , red with bloud , ob. 1.10 . like the scarlet coloured beast , who hath a mouth like a dragon . 4 your associate mr at. could tell me , that an other place was fitter for me , meaning the prison ▪ to whō i answered , that if i had the gift of dissembling which he had , to subscribe against my conscience as he did ( i told him then whē & wher ) i might live longe enough , & inioy achans wedge , as himself doth without abridgement of liberty . you of all others may be ashamed to dissemble thus with the prelates , knowing how basely you have thought & spoke of them : 5 you mr aw . could call vs brethren , & afterward being vrged for your dissembling , you could expound your meaning that it was in respect of creation : and so cayn , ismaell ; & antichrist , be your brethren too , yea & nearer of kin then so , by persecution too . 6 your self could say not long since , that of all sects on some conditions you could soonest joyne to vs , as being nearest the truth : & yet a little after call vs rebells : but rebellion being a high degree of treason , your self if you conceale it 24. houres will incurr the danger thereof , looke you to it . 7 you promised by writing to put downe reasons to iustify your ministerie , and doctrine betweene vs conferred of , but we thought before how slack we should find you in performance . at your next comming to slaughtens . i pray you not to spend an houre and half in confuting vs in proving that we never denyed , as you did before , & not to contradict your self as mr ies. did , disproving his owne doctrine the same tyme that he repeated it . the doctrine was that whosoever was reputed to be a minister & taught the doctrine in the foundation sound he was a true minister , and yet in the same place at the same time he said that a non resident was a thief and a robber . now i hope he will confesse that a non resident is reputed by them to be a minister and may teach the doctrine in the foundation sound , therefore a thief and a robber may be a true pastor , ( or els he disproved his own doctrine ) which cannot be . with grief of heart i assure you i write these things , having bene sometimes perswaded that you had more conscience , and true knowledg of god then can be perceived in this dealing . thus haue i given you a tast of your evill dealing , the lord give you true remorse at the sight of your sinn , or els remēber that which mr fox hath written of the terrible end of persecuters . if you haue any thing to say in answer , do not snatch here and there as your maner is , but directly and orderly iustify these doctrines which are laid to your charge as false . thus as before , so still committing our cause to the iust iudge , i take my leave : this present the 25. of mon. 2. 1603. he that desireth your good from his heart . tho. vvhite . this letter he wrote , as is aforesaid . since which time , being here discovered and disappointed of his expectation , he hath with demas embraced this present world , and left the trueth of christ : & is become a sworne enemy thereof himself , and a pleader for like fruits of darknes in others . will he now therfore behold himself in his owne glasse , and not forget what maner a one he is , but apply to himself his owne speaches , of the pillars of darkene● , of making the pulpit the chaire of falsehood , of abusing the scripture , of black drops falling from his lips , of miserable shifting against the light of his cons●ience , of confusion of language and building vp babel , of bombasted boastings , of doctrines of desolation , of false prophets & blind guides , of wayting on lying vanities & forsaking his own mercy , of seeking to vphold the beasts ruinated kingdome , of being an edomite , of having a mouth like a dragon , of the gift of dissembling , of enioying achans wedge , of base thinking & speaking of the prelates heretofore , of being now neare a kinne to cain , ismael , & antichrist , of the terrible end of persecutors , of committing our cause to the iust iudge , &c. and how would he reply againe , if mr a. to whō he wrote this letter , should now answer him by the words of his owne mouth out of his libell against vs , & aske him , are these things evill in others & good in him ? or as the poet speakes , iustum non iustum non iustū iustū quod vobis libet : or will he say as medea in ovid , video meliora proboque , deteriora sequor ? but rather will he heare the apostle , 2.1.3 . what art thou that cōdēnest another , & doest the same ? or the prophet , psal. 50.16 . why takest thou my word in thy mouth , and hatest to be reformed ? or christ himself , hypocrite first cast the beame out of thine owne ey , &c. mat. 7.5 . or if he will heare none of these , yet let him remember & take to himself his owne allegation of tullies words , testimonium tuum quod in aliena re leve est , hoc contra te grave , &c. thine owne testimony , which in another case is of small weight , this against thy self is of great moment . now of his hatred & malice against vs & the truth ( since he left it ) what should i need to speak ? himself hath proclaymed it to the world . and howsoever he would cloak & cover it with pretence of discharging his duty to god & his churches , of care for others , of omitting many the vilest things , of offending chast eares , of sparing vs , &c. yet doth he therein but the more verify that saying of salomon , hatred may be covered by deceit : but the malice thereof shall be discovered in the congregation . shemei himself , yea and rabshakeh , could besides other things pretend even the name of god , when they rayled & cursed most bitterly . wherein also what other thing hath he done in his invective against vs , but as the iesuites and other papists have often done against luther , calvine , beza , &c. of whom they shame not to forge and publish notorious lyes & sclanders : and all to obscure the truth professed by them ? vvhose steps how this enemie of ours hath followed , let others iudge . and let himself remember his owne saying heretofore , if he will regard no others , that a man who hath run away from his maister , wil seldome give him a good report . but thus is he the fitter servant for his maisters the prelates , by whose authority he pleaded here before the magistrates that his book was printed : and vnder them belike hopeth to be sheltered in england , whither he hath now betaken himself : for what cause he knoweth best . but wheresoever and howsoever he bestow himself , let him know , god will find him out : from whom he cannot fly , nor escape his judgement . for as enoch the seventh from adam prophecyed , so is it in all ages to be remembred , behold , the lord cōmeth with his thousands of saints , to do iudgement against all men , & to rebuke all the vngodly of them , of all the workes of vngod●ynes which they have vngodly committed , and of all the hard things which vngodly sinners have spoken against him . iude , ver . 14.15 . for which cuase , we could for our owne parts so have left him , & born in our bosome all his reproach , without giving any answer : had we not considered that by him not onely our selves but even the faith of christ which we professe is traduced and oppugned ; and many that are weak might thus be kept or turned away from the truth ; and salomon saith , he that is first in his owne cause , is iust , till his neighbour come and make inquiry of him . therefore thought we it best at this time to make the answer ensuing . vvherein as now we have followed the counsell & rule of wisdome , which saith , answer a foole according to his foolishnes , least he be wise in his owne eyes : so for hereafter ( vnles there be great & speciall occasion to the contrarie ) we may the better follow the other counsell and rule which wisdome in the same place teacheth , saying , answer not a foole according to his foolishnes , least thou also be like him : and specially for this man , who hath not delite in vnderstanding , but that his heart may be discovered : whom god hath already made a spectacle to others of heady , contentious , and hostile opposition against the faith and witnesses of iesus . neither let him or any other of our enemies think their case the better , because of our sinnes or troubles or weak walking in the faith , whereō they do so much insist . concerning which , my answer shall be with the words of the prophet , reioyce not against me , ô myne enemie : though i fall , i shall arise : whē i sit in darknes , the lord shall be a light vnto me . i will beare the wrath of the lord , because i have sinned against him , vntill he plead my plea , & execute iudgement for me : he will bring me forth to the light , i shall see his righteousnes . and he will look vpon myne enemie , and cover her with shame , which said vnto me , where is the lord thy god ? myne eyes shall looke vpon her , now shall she be troden downe as the myre in the streetes . and in this will we rest , and wayt vpon the lord the god of our salvation : trusting in him , that notwithstanding our vnworthines and his chastising which we have deserved , yet he will look vpon vs in mercy , and make all things worke for good vnto vs in christ : and that thus the vttermost opposition of all our enemies ( howsoever they set them selves against vs , whether against our cause or against our persons , against our faith or our walking in it ) shall turne to our good , & to the furtherance of the truth witnessed by vs : which we have much found that adversaries of all sorts have a long time and many wayes oppugned , as they yet daily do and cease not : though all in vaine . for great is the truth , and will prevaile : and greater is he that is with vs then they all that are against vs. to him be praise and glorie for ever and ever . amen . esay 54 , 15.16.17 . behold , he shall gather together , but without me : whosoever shall gather himself in thee , against thee , shall fall . behold , i have created the smith that bloweth the coales in the fire , and him that bringeth forth an instrument for his work , and i haue created the stroyer to destroy . but all the weapons that are made against thee , shall not prosper : and every tongue that shall rise against thee in iudgement , thou shalt condemne . this is the heritage of the lords s●rvants , and their righteousnes is of m● ▪ saith the lord. an inqvirie and ansvver of thomas vvhite his discovery of brownisme , or ( as he calleth it also ) his declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practised & encreased among the english company of the separation remayning for the present at amsterdam in holland . to any that are exercised in the word of god , or know the nature and power of sinne in themselues , or the doctrine & pledges of remissiō of sinnes by ch●ist in his church , or the power & vse of excōmunication for impenitent sinners , or the churches duty vpon their repentance to receive them againe , etc. to any such ( i say ) it cannot seem strange , that in true churches and christians , sinnes & enormities , sundry and great , should fall out & be found . the condition of the church of the iewes before christ , of the primitive churches after christ , yea of the whole church and people of god from the beginning of the world to this day , shew it plainly and certainly so to haue ben . which work of god so disposing , and case of his churches and the members therof so being , howsoever many haue stumbled thereat & abused it to their own destruction & deceiving of others , yet thus would god preach vnto the world and have his own people learne and lay to hart other & better things thereby . as namely , how sinfull & miserable we are in our selves ; how subtilly and continually sathan seeketh to devoure vs ; how fast we had need alway to hold faith in christ , and to fight the good fight thereof against all enemies of our salvation and obedience ; how needfull it is to live in the church of christ vnder his conduct and governmēt ; how carefull we had need be to make an end of our owne salvation with feare & trembling ; also how exceeding great the mercy of god is vnto vs in christ his sōne , by whom not only when we were enemies we were reconciled to god by his death , but being also reconciled are saved by his life ; and finally how infinite his power & wisedome is both in preserving his elect to salvation through the middest of so great corruption , and in bringing the wayes of the wicked vpon their own heads to their iust destruction : and all to the praise & glory of his name . these and the like good vses may & should we make of the foresaid condition of the church here on earth . neyther did we ever think or professe otherwise of our selves , but that we are sinfull & prone to evill in our selues aswell as others , obteyning salvation onely by iesus christ. yet may not our or any weaknes of man praejudice the truth of god. so that admitting it were with vs as this adversarie thomas white hath written against vs , yet ought none therefore to be turned away from the truth professed by vs , but to make other vse thereof , for their own good , as we our selues also ought . but now if the things he obiecteth , be many of them notorious lyes , divers of them purposely perverted , few of them truely related , and all of them ( as all may see ) maliciously abused against vs : how iustly shall that returne vpon his own head , which he would in ●his manner bring vpon vs ? according as it is said , he that diggeth a pit shall fall therein , and he that roleth a stone , it shall return vpon him . his mischief shall returne vpon his owne head , and his iniury shall descend vpon his owne pate . prov. 26.27 . psal. 7.15.16 . to come to the libell it self : he beginneth it with blasphemy , in the very title thereof , calling it a discovery of brownisme . what our cause and testimony is , we haue long since published in the confession of our faith : which this man knoweth well , & hath (a) in his book alledged the 17. article thereof . if then he take our cause ( for which we are reviled vnder the name of brownists ) to be errour , why did he not confute it ? if it be the truth , why doth he thus blaspheme it ? but so to be reproached , hath ben * the case of the apostles and christians of old . and at this day are the protestants thus dealt with by the papists , who blaspheme the truth vnder the name of zuinglianisme , lutheranisme , calvinisme , &c. and well it fitteth the priests of england , that as they partake with the papists in so many other things , they should also follow their steps in blaspheming the truth and witnesses thereof . that which he annexeth , calling his book also a declaration of some of the erros and abhominations among vs , as it enlargeth the title of his book , so it increaseth the wicke●nes of his sinne . for may not the reader hereby gather , that he would perswade , eyther that we hold and haue many other errours & abhominations besides them that here he imputeth vnto vs , or that all our cause and testimony is nothing els but error and abhomination ? as also when he saith , the errors and abhominations be dayly practised & encreased : and that not onely in some particular persons , but even among the company of the separation , ( and as he speaketh in his preface ) in that congregation wherein he would give his instance of prophanenes and hypocrisie . this congregation he nameth to be the english company of the separation remayning for the present at amsterdam . where the reader is to know , that we who by some are termed brownists ( of a mans name who heretofore witnessed this cause ) are by others called the company of the separatiō , because we do separate frō the prelacy , pri●sthood , worship & confusion of the church of england as being antichristian , & do also practise the ordinance of christ which he hath given for the government ministery worship and order of his church . this for the title . like therevnto is his treatise also . where for his generall accusations of debate , malice , adulteryes , cousonages , and other enormities , &c. this may serue in generall to be answered : 1. if he meane of some particular persons among vs , falling into such sinnes , it hath ben and is the case of all the churches of christ vpon earth , as may be seen in those of corinth , galatia , ephesus , &c. and what need or vse els should there be of the rules & power given by christ to his church for casting out obstinate sinners , and receiving the rep●ntant in againe ? but if he meane of the body of the church , as if we approved or reteyned such being cōvinced & vnrepentant , himself knoweth it is a malicious sclander , and his own objections ( afterward in his book ) of sundry persons whom for their sinnes and obstinacy therein we have cast out from among vs , may shew it also to others so to be . we are carefull ( he hath seen it himself ) that such be not reteyned or allowed among vs. and we find that even our carefulnes herein is abused against vs : because when any of vs are knowen to haue fallen into sinne and are dealt with according as the case requireth , whether they repent & so remayne in the church , or whether they persist in their evill and so are cut of , it is still objected against vs , and we are published to abound with such sinnes & en●rmities . thus might the best churches that ever w●re in the world be traduced : as hereafter there is further occasion to shew in some particulars . 2. for our selues ( as i said before ) we confesse , and professe it also , that we are subiect to sinne and infirmity , as other men : looking for salvation , not by our own righteousnes which is of the law , but onely by the righteousnes which is of god , through the faith of christ. yet , notwithstanding all the sinnes and vnworthynes of vs , let this still be held firme ( at least till vve be soundly confuted ) that our cause is the truth of the gospell of christ , witnessed against the errors of the defection of antichrist . 3. the accusations made against vs , are to be considered with their proofs : which will afterward come to be seen . in the meane time , let it be observed , whether if some would set themselues to collect particular instāces of debate , malice , adulteries , cousonages , & such other like enormities , daily cōmitted by many in the church wherevnto this man is now revolted , though they wrote no vntrueths ( as he doth many ) but noted onely the truth of things as they are indeed , neyther took the space of thirteen or fourteen yeares ( as he hath done ) but of any one yeare among them , how might they fill , i will not say a few sheeds of paper , but even many volumes of books therewith ? and if t. white were asked according to his own words here , whether he had not himself partaken with their abominatiōs & vnfruitfull works of darknes : and whether he would give warning to others of their leaders evill dealing , whereby their people are devoured : would he not think you verify his own other sayings here , shewing himself to be far from repentance , seeking to cover , hide , cloake , reproach and revile , vsing falsehood , shiftings , contrarieties , etc. all which are knowen to be so true and comon both in himself and the church whereto he is returned as i need not write thereof at all : their estate & dealing proclayme it to all that h●ue eares to heare and hearts to regard it . our banishment & poverty ( whereof he speaketh ) encreaseth his & their sinne against vs yet much the more . for are not they the persons that bring these afflictions vpon vs ? and is it not onely because we witnesse the truth of our lord iesus christ , against the falsehood of antichrist yet remayning among them , in the ministery worship order & government of their church ? but let them know that he which judgeth iustly the sonnes of men , will remember his banished , and execute justice and judgment to all that are oppressed . for the poore shall not alway be forgotten , nor the hope of the afflicted perish for ever . and in the meane tyme , even in the middest of all our afflictions , are we comforted in the lord , for whose sake we endure them : & great benefit do we further reap by them , not only for our own good many other wayes , but in this in particular , that these our troubles are a speciall meanes to keep discover and remove from among vs a number of hypocrites , such as this t. white , who ( if it were not for our poverty and banishment ) would flock faster vnto vs and lurk longer among vs , vnder a painted colour of holynes , making show as if they would depart from iniquity & call vpon the name of the lord ( and who more then they ? ) when in deed their harts be fraight full of the leaven of hypocrisy contention maliciousnes and all maner of iniquity : which in such case and estate of things doth oftentimes both sooner and more appeare , then otherwise it may be ever would . the calumniation of condemning all other churches and men , we haue often answered and cleared heretofore , & this also knowen to himself . yet thus he writeth , that in this as in the rest of his dealing all might see , how it is himself that runneth into fearfull extremities , and reproacheth with a virul●nt and venemous tounge . for our selves , besides our reverend estimation of other churches and good perswasion of other men , so often published to the world , we haue also shewed it in our walking towards them , and namely in our dealing with the dutch ●nd french churches of this citie as with true churches . which had we not so esteemed of them , we neither could nor would so haue done and dealt with them , as we haue . the letter he speaketh of , i haue still with me . his falsehood and other bad dealing therein , i will here omit , save onely about the doctrines by him layd vpon vs. 1. the first is that we held it lawfull for a man to live with her that is not his wife , rather then to reveale himself . this he saith : but how doth he proue it so to be held by vs ? if malice had not possessed him , this error had never ben imputed to vs eyther as held by the church or partaken in by the elders . sometimes in deed we haue had speach among vs of the vnlawfulnes ( as we were perswaded ) for man and wife to live together after adultery cōmitted ; & about the band of wedlock being broken thereby ; & whether that in the case of adultery vnknowen to others , the offenders were to reveale themselves , or not . about which latter points when we shewed our judgment & reasons , this tho. white ( who then was present ) did much vrge , that a man who knew such a crime by himself must reveale it , or els live in sinne , & with one that was not his lawfull wife . wherevpon some of vs reasoned with him about it , holding that a man should not so reveale himself . the end was , that we differed in judgem●nt about these things , & having had speach of them but by occasion , so rested for the present . will he now therefore make collections and frame positions of his owne or others spe●ch●s , and say ( as in his letter ) that they are false doctrines that ly vpon the church , or ( as here in his libell ) that they are blasphemous doctrines of the church ? what good dealing this is , let the reader judge . and concerning the question aforesaid , whereas some of vs were thus minded about it , that a man having cōmitted adultery ( which is vnknowē to others ) is not bound by the word of god to reveale himself , but vnfeynedly to repent thereof : and that in such case he may notwithstanding lawfully continue with his wife : although i be not here in particular to handle this point : yet i will now propound these few things to be considered about it . as namely , what scriptures teach a man so to accuse ●imself ; whether it be not vnnaturall for a man so to do ; whether in israell the womā spoken of numb . 5.12.13 . were bound to reveale her adultery ( being vnknowen ) vntill or vnlesse her husband were moved with the spirit of ielousy , as the law there is given ? and , whe●her ●●w ●en should of themselves reveale such their case to the magistrates , who haue power to put them to death for it ? by what law of god they are bound therevnto ? and whether els they cannot haue true rpentance but deny the prophecy of christ & erre fundamentally , as here he would perswade ? 2. the second is , that there are qualities in god not essentiall , & that love in god is not of his being , but that the self same love that is in god , that is also in vs. himself knoweth and hath bene here convinced of the notable falsehood hereof , yet shameth not thus to publish it against vs. and that now the reader may know how the matter arose , i will briefly shew it . we haue in our church * the vse of the exercise of prophecy spoken of in 1 cor. 14. chap. rom. 12.6 . 1 thes. 5.20 . in which , some of the brethren such as for gifts are best able ( though not in office of ministery ) deliver from some portion of scripture , doctrine , exhortation , comfort ; sometimes two at a tyme , sometymes mo : then also if there be occasion , vpon the scripture treated of , are questions propounded and answers made accordingly : and the whole action moderated by some of the officers and overseers of the church . in this exercise , the first epistle of iohn being treated of , vpon these words , he that loveth not , knoweth not god : for god is love : the poynt aforesaid was by way of qu●stiō spoken of . and about it there was reasoning by two or three of the brethren & this white himself , with obiections and answers diversly . wherevpon this doeg , by some of those br●threns reasoning & the * opinion of one of them about this matter , took the occasion thus to reproach vs : which first he did more privately , and now hath done it publikely to the world . wherein his evill dealing is the more notorious , because himself being then present , knoweth how both at the same tyme b the moderation thereof by one of the elders was according to t●e truth , disproving the error aforsaid which he would impute vnto vs ; and afterward ( he carying himself verie yll about it & other things ) that the matter was againe heard & examined in the publick congregation , where to his face he was convinced to be a false accuser therein . besides he knoweth the confession of our faith long since published , which alone doth so fully cleare vs in it , as very shame of men , if no feare of god , might haue restrayned his lying lippes , and kept him from blaspheming vs with so black a mouth . 3. a third thing there was , ●nd that obiected by him publickly in the church , and noted also in his letter , as a false doctrine lying vpon the church : namely , that vvhen a matter is in the third place to be brought to the church by the rule of christ , mat. 18.15.16.17 . our order being that the ●lders first have knowledg thereof given them by the parties themselues , then that the case being such as is to come to the church , it be publickly propounded and handled by them , as in respect of their office apperteyneth vnto them , being the governors and overseers of the church : this he blamed then as an error & false doctrine , contrary to christs rule , mat. 18. but here now he concealeth it . and good cause why . for when he was called vpō for his proof hereof in the publick congregatiō where he had made the accusation : he was glad to answer , that he vvas not provided : and this also after a weeks respite to consider of it . wherevpon he was rebuked as hasty to accuse and slow to prove , whereas wisedome would haue taught him , first to haue bene provided of proof before he had set himself to accuse as he did . but if now he think it to be no error in vs , and therefore speakes not of it , he might even by this haue learned to set a watch before his mouth , at least not to haue barked rgainst vs in so vile a maner as he hath done . or if he still think that we erre therein , contrary to christs rule , mat. 18. ( as he obiected heretofore ) why hath he not here noted it downe with the other aforesaid ? is it because that ordinance of christ overthroweth the prelacy and government of the church of england ( whither he is now revolted ) it being such as they neyther do neyther can in their constitution obserue that rule at all ? but how then can he approue them for a true church in such estate , and how will he answer the reason alledged by vs against thē c heretofore in this respect ? which is this , every true visible church of christ hath christs power spoken of mat. 18 ▪ 17.18 . to cast out ●●●unate sinners from among them : but the ecclesiasticall assemblyes of england haue not the power of christ there spoken of , to cast out obstinate sinners from among them : therefore the ecclesiasticall assemblies of england cannot ( in their constitution ) be accounted true visible churches of christ. and hitherto of his false & blasph●mous doctrines objected against vs in his letter . which in his libell he saith i promised to ansvver & performed it not . yet in the letter it self he writeth that * i said , i had spoken vnto him both privately & publickly , & now would not further haue to do vvith him . and concerning his letter , my answer was to this effect ( as i remember ) sent him by i.l. one of his own company , besides my speach vnto himself : that the contents of his letter vvere partly private , partly publick : that for the private , i required proof ; and for the publick , i vvould not deale privaely . wishing also the said i.l. to deale with him for some reports ( ascribed to him in the letter ) concerning me which he denyed , and to end it between themselves who were of one company together : and as i should heare thereof , so i should consider what to do for the rest . this let him aske of i.l. his own companion : and let himself now look vnto it who it is that falsifyeth . for not ansvvering his letter by vvriting , i had good reason : as may appeare by that which before is alledged . and wisdome teacheth , there be persons who are not to be answered according to their foolishnes , and times also when to speak and when to be silent : pro. 26.4 . eccles. 3.7 . vvith 2 king. 18.36 . the dumbe ministers spoken of d in the place here cited by him , he hath now consorted himself withall , being returned to his old vomit , and become as dumbe as any of them for defending the truth against the aduersaries thereof : yet opening his mouth above all his fellowes in blaspheming the truth and witnesses of it . wherein the case of the worst dumbe dog in england is ten thousand fold better then his : and happy it had ben for him , if his toung had cleaved to the roof of his mouth , and his hand never vsed pen , more then theirs : whereas now his sin is vnspeakably greater & his estate infinitely more miserable . but leaving him to the iudgmēt of god , i will proceed to the other particulars of his book : desiring the reader , for all his pretence of due proof of his charges , to remember that saying of salomon , he that is first in his ovvn cause is iust : then cometh his neighbour , and maketh inquir● of him . prov. 18.17 . of the first head of th : white his treatise . that which followeth in his treatise , himself reduceth to fower heads . in which order i will also handle them . the first is , that he saith vve haue betrayed our ovvn cause in vvriting . and to prove it , he alledgeth that i erre in the description of a true visible church , and thereby overthrovv the mayn drift of my vvritings . i answer : 1. his reason followes not . for may not i or any other of vs erre in some thing ▪ & yet our generall cause not be betrayed ? agayne , did not nathan the prophet erre about the building of the temple , and peter the apostle about the gentiles calling and comunion ? could now an edomite or pharisee have iustly gathered , that they had therefore betrayed the cause of israel or of the christians witnessed by them against the adversaries ? to come nearer to our owne times , it is well knowen that mr. calvine , luther , beza , fulk , powell , sutcliff , &c. writing against the papists anabaptists and the like , haue in sundrie things erred , even concerning the very pointes of the difference between them : shall vve say therefore that they have betrayed the cause handled betvveen them and their aduersaries ? and overthrovven the mayne drift of their ovvn vvritings ? not to speak of the martyrs put to death by the papists , how both many of them , and in many things , have erred , even concerning the causes controverted in their tymes . should we therefore conclude that they betrayed their own cause ? or that they did not witnesse the truth notwithstanding faithfully even vnto death ? 2. our cause towching the church of england , is , that the estate thereof is such in their prelacy , priesthood , worship , confusion , &c. as it is not lawfull by the word of god for any to ioyne or continue with them in such estate : and moreover , that it is the duty of all christians , to receive and keep the faith and ordinances of christ , vvherein the primitive churches vvere planted by the apostles . to discusse and make these things more playne , i reduced our whole cause to seaven questions , and so propounded them : viz , 1. whether the lord iesus christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his church sufficient ordinary offices , with their callings , workes , & maintenance , for the administration of his holy things , and for the sufficient ordinary instruction , guidance , and service of his church to the end of the world , or no ? 2. whether the offices of pastors , teachers , elders , , deacons , and helpers , be those offices appointed by christ in his testament , as aforesaid . or whether the present ecclesiasticall offices of archbishops , lordbishops , suffragans , deanes , prebendaries , canons , petticanons , priests , deacons , archdeacons , doctors of divinitie , bachelers of divinity , chapleins or housepriests , commissaries , officialls , proctors , apparitors , parsons , vicars , curates , vagrant or mercenary preachers , church-wardens , sidemen , clerkes , sextins , and the rest now had in the cathedrall and parishionall assemblies , be those offices appointed by christ in his testament as is aforesaid , or no ? 3. whether the calling and entrance into these ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid , their administration , and maintenāce now had and reteyned in england , be the manner of calling administration & maintenance which christ hath appointed for the offices of his church above named , or no ? 4. whether every true visible church of christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world & the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of god , & ioyned togeather in fellowship of the gospell , by voluntary professiō of the faith and obedience of christ ? and whether the ecclesiasticall assemblies of the land be such , or no ? 5 whether the sacraments ( being seales of righteousnes which is by faith ) may be administred to any other but to the faithfull and their seed , or in any other ministery & manner then is appointed by iesus christ the apostle and high priest of our profession ? and whether they be not otherwise administred in the cathedrall & parishionall assemblies of england at this day ? 6. whether the book of common prayer with the feasts , fasts , holy dayes , stinted prayers , and leiturgy prescribed therein , and vsed in these assemblies , be the true worship of god commaunded in his word , or the devise and invention of man , for gods worship and service . 7. whether all people and churches ( without exceptiō ) be not bound in religion , only to receive & submit vnto that ministery , worship , and order , which christ as lord and king hath given and appointed to his church ? or whether any may receive or ioyne vnto another devised by man , for the service of god ? and consequently , whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall ministery , worship , and order of the cathedrall and parishionall assemblies , can be assured by the word of god that they ioyne to the former ordeined by christ , and not to the latter devised by man , even the man of sinne , for the worship and service of god ? now reducing our cause to these heads , if it were so that i erred in one of them , is therefore our cause betrayed ? or should my particular error , be imputed to the whole church , or reputed the betraying of our generall cause ? is there not difference to be put between erring through ignorance ( if this were an errour ) and betraying with knowledge ? or if this maner of reasoning which he vseth might be admitted , who can deny but the protestants of england , and of all sorts , have an hundred and an hundred tymes betrayed their own cause , and overthrovven the very drift of their owne writings ? and if they think it not of weight against them for their multitude of knowen errours , with what face can it be vrged against vs for one supposed errour ? 3. for the description it self which was given of a visible church , i still hold it to be good . it was thus , a true visible church of christ is a company of faithfull people , by the word of god called out from the vvorld and the false vvayes thereof , gathered together in fellovvship of the gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of christ. this is the description : which he would proue to be false , partly by gathering my meaning thereof in other places of that & other books , partly and particularly by my judgment concerning the israelites in egypt , spoken of in the ans. to m● ia. pag. 47. where before i answer him , let me advertise the reader that if there be any weight in this exception , it was found out , not by th. white ( as by his book might be supposed ) but by some of the ministers in vviltshire , specially by one mr io. ie. and other his fellowes there , who have bestowed much labour in reading our writings , vvhether for love to the truth , or that they might finde somewhat thereby the more to cavill against it , let their walking and dealing shew . vvhose disciple novv this white is become , having heretofore stood as opposite against them , as white is to black . now therfore to answer them all vnder one , i will write somewhat touching this matter : referring the further handling of it ( if there be need ) till some other adversaries , with whom we ha●● to deale concerning it and the other heads of our cause , give further occasion . two things ( as i said ) about this description are specially noted and vrged : the first about the meaning ; the other about my vvriting of the israelites in egypt . for the first , the meaning is plaine by the words themselues , and by the drift of that and all other of our boo●s , as may appeare not onely by the places here cited by him , but by many other compared together , and particularly by an expresse declaration annexed vnto it in our apologie against the oxf : doct. pag. 36.44.45 . yet now againe to explane and proue the truth of that description , i will here treat a litle more thereof . to esteem and describe aright a true visible church , we must look especially to two things , 1. the calling of christ ; 2. the covenant and cōmunion of the church : to christ his calling , like as the apostles every where describe the churches according to it : as namely , the churches of ephesus , corinth , rome &c. for which see these scriptures , rom. 1.5.6.7 . 1 cor. 1.2.9.24 . gal. 1.6 . & 5.8.13 . ephe. 1.1 . with 4.1.4 . col. 3.15 . 1 thes. 2.12 . & 5.24 . 2 thes. 1.11 . & 2.14 . heb. 3.1 . 1 pet. 1.15 . & 2.9.21 . 2 pet. 1.1.3 . iude , ver . 1. now it cānot be denyed but christs calling of his churches & people , is vnto the whole faith of the gospell & willing obedience thereof , & f●ō all evill & iniquity that is any way repugnant therevnto , & therefore frō the false worship & wayes of the vvorld whatsoever they be or wheresoever . and herevpon did the apostles reproue the churches still when they fell into any sinne eyther against the first or second table , as not walking worthy the holy calling whervnto they were called in christ ; and required of them also obedience to all the cōmaundements & ordinances of christ f●ō tyme to tyme. therefore should white and his teachers have better observed that clause of the description aforesaid , by the vvord of god called out etc. so might they have perceived ( if they had love to the truth ) both that the description is good ; and that the abberrations of true chu●ches are so far from proving it any way false , as they do in deed approue the truth of it : in asmuch as the verie being of a church by the calling of christ requireth of them to walk otherwise . another thing that we are to look vnto , yet also depending vpon the former , is the churches covenant and cōmunion . this covenant is to be considered , as made by them vnto the lord , and one with another , to walk together in the truth of the gospell , in all the cōmaundements and ordinances of the lord : and therefore to forsake and avoid whatsoever is there against . as may appeare by these scriptures , exod. 19.3 — 8. 2 king. 23.2.3 . esa. 2.2.3 . & 14.1 . and 44.5 . ier. 50.4.5 . act. 2.41.42.47 . and 11.21.24 . rom. 12.5 . 2 cor. 9.13 . ephes. 4.4.5.6 . phil. 1.1.5 . therefore also , the description aforesaid is good . and so might the adversaries haue perceived , if they had well observed that other clause therein , of being gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the gospell &c. and what els is it that giveth the being to a true visible church , but the calling of christ , & the churches covenant according thervnto ? wherevpon in a true church may and ought these things following alway to be observed : 1. that it hath christ alone for the mediatour , that is , for the prophet , priest , and king thereof . 2. that it is to be accounted the spouse and body of christ , the househould citie and kingdome of god , the ground and pillar o truth , a church of saints , &c. 3. that the promises and pledges of gods covenant presence & blessing do appertayne vnto them in that estate . 4. that it apperteyneth to christ , to remove his candlestick & take away his kingdome from a church when and as he pleaseth . 5. that every true visible church hath authority and power frō christ to receive in members willingly professing the same faith with them , & to cast out obstinate offenders from among them . 6. that the want or transgression of christs ordinances doth not simply or presently disanull them from being a true church . for example , when a people are so called and covenanted as aforesaid , though yet they have none in office amōg thē ( eyther pastors , teachers , elders etc. ) they are notwithstanding a true visible church . and by their calling and covenant they have power in christ , as he giveth them fit men and meanes , to chuse and enjoy these , as any other of his ordinances . likewise also , when any of the church yea or the whole do transgresse , eyther in some thing which yet they have not seen , or whereinto now they are fallen , they are notwithstanding a true visible church . and by their calling and covenant they have power in christ to redresse them . which when vpon knowledg they shall refuse , and ●o continue , then are they to be esteemed according as their case shall require . so then , to judge rightly of a true church , we must look ( as the apostles did ) at their calling and cōmunion in the gospell . which being observed , it wil be easy to put difference between the errours , and the constitution of true churches : as christ and his apostles did , in the churches of asia , achaia , galatia , &c. to reprove them for the one , and yet to approue them as true churches for the other . and this also vntill christ himself remove his candlestick and take away his kingdome from among them : which is to be left vnto him , to do when & as it pleaseth him . and this also might serue for answer to the exception drawen from my writing , concerning the israelites in egypt : who sinned with idols , and yet were gods people . but it being so vrged by divers as it is , i will note a few things more concerning it in particular . the objection is made thus , if they cōmitted idolatry vvith the idols of egypt , hovv were they then a company of faithfull people separated from all false vvayes ? i answer , by the lords former calling of them to the obedience of himself , who was by covenant the lord their god , and they his people . gen. 12. & 17. & 46. vvith exod. 2.23.24.25 . & 3.7 8.15.16 . numb . 20.16 . deut. 26.7 . which also is laid as the ground of the admonition , for calling of them from that idolatry spoken of , ezech. 20.7 . and may not a people so separated as aforesaid , fall into this sinne of idolatry , aswell as into other sinnes ? see the case of israel afterward againe , exod. 32. where moses in his prayer to god , calleth israell the lords people , even then when they had cōmitted such idolatry , as the lord would presently have consumed thē for it . exod. 32.1.10.11 . and of israell againe , see what is recorded , iudg. 2. &c. and likewise of the church of rome , which at first was a true church separated from all false wayes , yet fell into this sinne , and cōtinueth therein . rom. 1.6.7.8 . & 16.19 . vvith rev. ● . & 13. and 14. & 17. chap. but this was the generall estate of the israelites at that tyme. what then ? so may it fall out with a true church : as now hath ben shewed : and so we are taught , lev. 4.13.14 . yet here also might be demaunded , whether he meane it to be so generall , as including all of israel therein , specially considering what is written of some in those tymes , ex. 1. & 2. & 6 . 20-27 . numb . 1. vvith heb. 11.23 . &c. and , whether this idolatry were publike , or private , like as that spoken of , ezech. 8 , 12. zeph. 1.1.4.5 . but howsoever , their sinne vvas also of obstinacy : for they vvere admonished from the lord , & yet they rebelled against him , as the scripture sheweth , ezech. 20.7.8 . and even the same scripture sheweth also , that for this cause they deserved themselves & god thought to haue powred out his indignation vpon them : but stayed it , in respect of his ovvn name ( which is called vpō*his churches & people ) , & not because of their estate , as now it was , ezec. 20.7.8.9 . and how doth this then overthrow , & not rather cōfirme , the des●ription aforesaid ? or must we not alway desribe & esteem a church by the conditiō thereof according to the revealed word of god : & yet leave vnto the lord to esteem & deale therewith notwithstanding as in any respect seemeth good vnto himself ? or when god saith , he is the lord their god , and calleth them his sonne and first borne , whom he might in respect of their own estate cast of , can we not so esteem of them , but we must therevpon conclude , that in the description of a true visible church , idolatrie and all false wayes are not to be excluded ? or ( to speak of the questions controverted at this day ) that rome , in all her idolatries , is notwithstanding still to be reputed the spouse of christ , and not to be rejected as an harlot ? and so likewise all the churches that be her daughters in that estate ? againe , what if it were ( as * some think ) that israell first rebelling , and so provoking god to wrath , as is aforesaid , did afterward through the affliction which by pharaoh was encreased vpon them , turne into their own hart , and crie vnto the lord god of their fathers ( as we read , exod. 2. and 3. numb . 20.16 . deut. 26.7 . ) ? should we not then put difference between obstinacy still persisted in , & that which is afterward repented of & amended ? not to speak of the israelites estate in egypt , how in their kindred and families the church consisted and was governed , and how then they had not the word written ; ●eyther of their estate afterward in the wildernes , how god did never so punish thē for any of their transgressions ( though of the same nature ) before his law given vnto them , as he did after : as may be observed in the history : so teaching all ages succeeding , to take speciall heed to his written word , & according to it to esteem & walk in all things . wherefore to end this point , thus i think , that for israel & all other people and churches , we are bound alwayes so to esteem and walk , as by the word of god we have direction and vvarrant from him , and neyther to judge nor , vvalk othervvise : and as christ giveth to all true churches their being , so to leave vnto him to take it away when and as he pleaseth . and for this case of israel in particular , let me further aske , whether such of the israelites as should now have left that idolatry spoken of , ought not also to have left cōmunion therein with the rest so transgressing : and yet to have left them to the lord to esteem and deale with them as in any respect should seem good vnto himself ? for that which he objecteth next out of the preface to the last answ . to mr ia. sect . 6. it is concerning churches wilfully persisting in errour and disobedience of the trueth and voice of christ ; and shewed by the example of the churches of the iewes 〈…〉 ●●●son objected about them by d.b. for which i refer the reader to that preface & sectiō , together with that which is said in the answer to the 4. section of the same preface : and more particularly , to that which i haue written about this poynt in the booke it self , pag. 161.195.196 . & in the answer to mr a.h. pag. 61.62 . where the reader shall fynd what i haue written , and what my judgment is , concerning this matter : namely , that all good and lawfull meanes being first vsed towards true churches fallen into sinne , if they amend not ▪ but wilfully persist therein the lord hath threatned to remove the candlestick out of his place , and to take his kingdome frō amōg the : requiring also of such as are willing to obey the truth & voice of christ , now to save themselves from such a froward generation , & to walk in obedience of his faith & commaundements . rev. 2.5 . mat. 21.42.43 . esa. 8.12 — 16. act. 2.40.41.42 . & 13.46.51 . & 18.5.6 . & 19.8.9 . and according to this would i be vnderstood , wheresoever i speak concerning this argument . for the iewes in egypt rebelling after admonition , besides the difference to be put between obstinacy persisted in , and that which is repented of ( which is thought to haue bene their estate ) i have here before shewed how we are to discerne , between their estate in respect of their owne desert , and the lords mercy vnto them for his name● sake notwithstanding . which diversity of respect being now revealed vnto vs in the word of god concerning them , we are therin to rest , and so to speak and esteem of their estate as the scriptures teach vs. ezech. 20.7.8.9 . with exod. 4.22 . and 3.10.18 . & 8 , 22. and 12. chap and 15.16 . hos. 11.1 . for the iewes in christs time and after his death , what i think and my reasons thereof , the reader may find also in the treatise aforesaid : both in the preface , sect . 4. & 5. and in the book it self , pag. 161.195 . for that he objecteth here , about their estate after admonition , two things are to be obserued : the one concerning that people ; the other concerning their admonition . for the first , touching the people , god had chosen that nation out of all the nations of the earth to be his ; he had done great & wonderous things for them ; he had given them his word and statutes ; he had promised that of them and to them he would send the messiah ; him they expected ; for refusall of him they were to be cut of , and the gentiles to be graffed in ▪ many were the cities and synagogues of them ; to to ierusalem the males came but thrice a yeare , &c. and for the second , towching admonition , god would haue them fully taught admonished and convinced that the messiah was now come , & that iesus was he : therefore was iohn baptist appointed to shew him vnto them , and to baptise in his name ; therefore did christ send his disciples into their cities to preach & testifie it vnto them ▪ therfore also did christ himself every where among them teach & confirme it by his doctrine and miracles : and being the true passeover shadowed out by all their types , was put to death at their feast of passeover , & rose againe the third day acco●●ing ●o the sc●iptu●es ; to accomplish the promises made vnto the fathers , and to leave ●he iewes without all colour o● 〈…〉 ●●lief and obstinacy they should be cut off . these things and the like noted of them in the scripture , are to be observed of vs , that we may aright esteem of their estate , and of the lords account of them and dealing with them . yea the scriptures here cited by himself shew this very thing , how the lord did not at first cut of that people , but after he had vsed sundry meanes vnto them , and that also many tymes . luk. 7.30.31 , &c. mat. 23.37.38 . and the same is playnely declared , mar. 21.33 — 43. and throughout the history of the evangelists and actes of the apostles . besides for admonition also obserue , how god requireth that a particular man for a private ●●nne be admonished in the 〈◊〉 secōd and third place , before he be cast out , mat. 18.15.16.17 . and in rejecting an heretick , that it be done after the first and second admonition , tit. 3.10 . also in the lord his owne dealing with the particular churches of the gentiles , that he gave them space to repēt , after the admonitions given vnto them , before he would remoue the candlestick out of his place , rev. 2.4.5.16.21 . & 3.3.16.18.20.22 . and what then should let , that we should not likewise obeserve gods dealing with the iewes at that tyme , and accordingly esteem of their estate ? concerning whom , note also , when now they had despised all the former meanes and crucified iesus , then the apostles testifying vnto them that he was the christ , did first at ierusalem & after wheresoever they came and found the disobedient , teach all to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation . act. 2.14 — 40. & 13.14 — 51. & 18.5.6 . & 19.8.9 . & 28.25.26.27 . thus haue i touching this point shewed my mynd : wherein if i erre , let it be shewed by the word of god. and though in some things i differ in judgment from mr h barrow ( that faithfull martyr of christ ) yet doth it not prejudice the truth testified by both of vs , against the antichristian estate of the church of england . this themselues may ob●erue in thei● owne writers against the papists : in whom it were endles to recount the differences found amōg thē , & frivolous to pretend thereby approbatiō of the romish church in their estate . we all here know but in part : and who is he that erreth in nothing ? if then in this i were mistaken , haue i therfore betrayed our cause , or overthrowen the mayne drift of my writings ? nay if this be all the errour in my writings that with all his searching he cā fynd , i shall rather think our cause to be so approved and my drift atteyned therein , for the truth of christ against the present estate of their church , as they are not able eyther to defend themselues or convince vs by the word of god , and therefore now set themselues to search snatch and cavill at something for objection against vs. which also if they fynd , and it be graunte● them , albeit our defence therein were the weaker , yet were theyr cause therefore never a whit the better . to conclude this poynt , besides personall abuse of divers ( of which 〈…〉 where he hath it agayne ) he objecteth against me , that i condemne the dutch and french churches , for despising our admonition &c. but in what writing of ●●nne hath he found this , or in what words haue i spoken it to any , or in what dealing towards them haue i shewed it ? where is the due proof of his charges , which ere while he told vs of ? how reverendly we think of these churches , we haue often shewed and published heretofore ; which i need not here repeat . and what dealing hath passed between vs and the elders of the dutch and french churches of this city , i shall haue occasion hereafter to shew more particularly : to which place i 〈◊〉 it ▪ now onely let the reader here consider how truely and fitly his shutting vp of this point may be applyed to himself : who heretofore hath held and witnessed the same testimony with vs against the church of england , and corruptions of these churches here : but now wavereth or rather in deed is revolted in both , as the world seeth , and his walking sheweth : he that wavereth in his owne testimony , ●ow shall his witnes ●e received ? but thus is that verifyed in him which the wise man speaketh , the ●vill man is snared by the wickednes of his own lippes . of the second head of th● white his treatise . hitherto of the first ●ead of his 〈…〉 , ●hat he saith we cut of from being true curches in our account , all the churches of christ that ever have ben since the apostles dayes , or now are , y●● and our selue● also , his proof of all this , he would fetch , partly from the description aforesaid , partly from a 〈◊〉 treatise entituled , a true description out of the word of god , of the visible church . his instances are three , 1. of the chruches that haue ben since the apostles dayes ; 2. of the churches that now are ; 3. & of our selues . touching which ( omitting that i haue answered before to his former exception , which may here agayn be remembred , though i repeat it not ) let the reader now first obserue and marke it well , how he saith , the churches that haue ben since the apostles dayes , and not , the churches that were in their dayes . beli●● 〈…〉 that th● 〈…〉 said cutteth not them of : and if not them , then not any other at all . for that which made them to be true visible churches , doth and must make all other so to be , to the end of the world , namely , the calling of christ and their mutuall covenant and communion in his gospell : as we haue shewed before out of the scriptures . wherevpon i reason thus : if the description aforesaid cut not of the primitive churches planted by the apostles , from being true visible churches of christ ; then doth it not cut of any other which since that tyme haue bene , are , or shal be to the end of the world : but the former is true : therefore the latter . the proposition is vndenyable , from the scriptures and demonstration aforesaid . it is one and the same thing that giveth being to all true visible churches of chr●●t . that which gave being to the churches of ierusalem , antioch , rome &c. gaue also being to the churches of galatia , corinth , ephesus , &c. notwithstanding the corruptions they fell into . and that which then gave being to them , giveth being to all that haue ben since , or ever shal be . the church is the body of christ , and every one members for their part ; he is th● 〈◊〉 ●f the body , & from him doth all the life & power thereof p●oceed : he is not devided . the assumption is as certa●ne , 〈◊〉 will appear● , in that the primitive churches planted by the apostles , were companies of faithfull people , by the word of god called out and separated from the world and the false vvayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellovvship of the gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of christ. this is proved by the acts of the apostles and their epistles throughout . and if this man , or his maisters of whome he learned to object against this description , do deny it ( as by their exceptions & reasons is implyed ) may not we justly returne vnto them , that which vnjustly they would impute vnto vs , and say , are not they then the blasphemers of the christians and their churches ? or is not this to robbe christ of his honour ? or may not that saying be verifyed of themselues , he that despiseth his neighbour is a foole . pro. 11.12 . but let vs come to his proof concerning the churches spoken of by himself . thus he concludeth it : if no church that hath bene since the apostles dayes or novv is that we read of ▪ be separate from all false vvayes in their account ▪ then by this description and in tho● 〈…〉 churches : but the former is true : therefore the latter . answ. the whole sillogisme fayleth , as he hath propounded it . in the proposition or first 〈…〉 tha● which in the description is particularly specified and needfull alway to be observed ( namely , to be companies by the word of god called out from the world and false wayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the gospell &c. wherfore his proposition is not so vndenyable as h● suppos●th from tha● description . and when these particulars which now he hath omitt●d be 〈…〉 to be implyed , yet then also by further following of ●he assumptiō may there be occasion to obserue more concerning it . and for the assuption it self or second part of the reason , it must needs fayle in like maner , because of that omitted in the proposition aforesaid . his reason therefore ( if he would haue reasoned soundly and to the purpose ) should haue bene framed thus : if no church that hath bene since the apostles dayes or now is that we read of , be in their account , by the word of god called out and separated from the world and the false wayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the gospell , by voluntarie profession of the faith and obedience of christ , then by his description and in their account must they be no true churches : but the former is true : therefore the latter . answ. 1. the very propounding of the reason thus , sheweth the weaknes of it . 2. and what if we would not be drawen to speak of the churches since , but onely of them that were in the apostles dayes : keeping onely to the word of god and that which is recorded therein ? if they cannot by it or the example of those churches disproue our testimony , what would it help them or hurt vs , if we answered them no further ? 3. yet to answer this reason notwithstanding , and to omit the proposition , as is aforesaid : i requier proof of the assumption , because all that he hath brought for confirmation of it , doth not yet proue it : as will appeare by discussing his allegations , concerning the churches he speaketh of , 1. that were then ; 2. that now are ; 3. and our selues . for the first , viz , the churches heretofore since the apostles dayes , all that he saith is that we account the very saying of the lords prayer as a prayer to be a false way , which was vsed from the apostles age &c. ans. 1. is this all he can alledge against vs concerning those churches & tymes ? others 〈…〉 would perswade they have it by 〈◊〉 also of those w●ite●s , that archbishops , primates , metropolitans , archdeacons , stinted formes of prayer , the vse of the signe of the crosse , and a number of such like things haue ben from the apostles age . should we therefore believe them herein ? and how cometh it that this antiquarie hath never a word of all these for those tymes ? is it that he thinketh we hold them not now for false wayes of governing the church and worshipping the lord ? or is it not in deed because the hypocrite would not yet be seen to speak for these , and would notwithstanding so diss●mble the matter , as yet may please all sorts that are against vs ? 2. to speake of that he alledgeth , admitting all he saith here to be true , yet is not the assumption thereby proued . for in all true churches , the calling of christ and the churches covenant to obey the gospell bindes them from all errour and false wayes : notwithstanding that both the members and the whole body be subject to fall into them from tyme to tyme , while we live here on earth . if then this saying of the lords prayer as a prayer be a false way of worshipping god , it was excluded by their calling and fellowship in the gospell : howsoever they fell into the vse of it . if it be not a false way , then were it but our errour so to think , which we were also to corrrect , & the description notwithstanding still should stand good . now what our judgement is concerning the right vse of that forme of prayer , together with our reasons out of the scripture thereabout , we haue often shewed and published heretofore , in divers treatises , which till they be answered and refuted , i shall not need here to repeat them , or to insist any further vpon that matter . onely thus much now , if the vsing of the lords prayer as a prayer , be a part of the worship of god appointed by christ , then did the apostles in the planting of the primitive churches teach them so to vse it : for they were inioyned by christ to teach whatsoever he commaunded them , and so they did : mat. 28.20 . with act. 2.42 . and 4.24 — 31. and 20.27 . 1 cor. 11.23 . but that they taught to vse it thus , none can shew eyther in their acts , or in their epistles . and tertullian saith , ( if they regard his testimony ) * scriptura negat quod non notat : the scripture denyeth that which it noteth not . this man therefore and such as do so hold , that the lords prayer is to be vsed as a prayer , are bound to shew by the scriptures that the apostles did teach the first churches thus to vse it : vnles they would ( with the papists ) argue the scripture of imperfection , or the apostles of vnfaithfulnes . 3. the distinction of faulty and false is here also to be observed . true churches may be faulty in sundry things ( as those of asia , corinth &c. and yet not straightway therefore be false churches . true prophets may be faulty in divers things ( as ieremiah , ionah , &c. ) and yet they be no false prophets . true worshippers of god may be faulty in their worship many wayes ( as may be seen in corinth , colosse , &c. ) and yet not therefore be false worshippers . by which examples also may appeare , both what difference is between false and faulty , and how needfull it is alwayes in these cases to be duly regarded . 4. his proof , that the lords prayer was vsed as a prayer from the apostles age , is out of tertullian whose words be these : quoniam dominus prospector humanarum necessitatū seorsum post traditam orandi disciplinam , petite inquit & accipietis , & sunt quae petantur pro circumstantia cuiusque , praemissa legitima & ordinaria oratione quasi fundamento , accidentium ius est desideriorum , ius est superstruendi extriusecus petitiones : cum memoria tamen praeceptorum , ne quantum a praeceptis , tantum ab auribus dei longè simus . because the lord that seeth mans necessities did apart after the doctrine of prayer delivered say , ask & ye shall receive , and there be things to be asked according to the circumstance of every one , the lawfull and ordinary prayer being premised as a foundation , we may for the desires that fall out , we may from without it build therevpon our petitions , yet with remēbrance of the things cōmaunded , least we be as far frō the eares of the lord as from his commaundements . towching this testimony ( if it were a thing to be stood vpon in this case ) many things might be excepted . 1. tertullian lived about 200 yeares after the apostles dayes . 2. many things were held lawfull & ordinarily vsed in his tyme , which were not at all in the apostles dayes : as , prayer with cloakes put off , and hands washed ; signing with the crosse , and annoynting with oyle after baptisme ; godfathers and godmothers ; mixing of water with wine in the lords supper ; oblations for the dead ; lenten fast ; holy water &c. 3. he also followed & was infected with divers errors , which 〈…〉 judgement , even in his owne tyme reproved and rejected : as , the iewish errour of the chiliastes , that the godly shall haue a pleasant life on earth , a thousand yeares before the end of the world : also , that the angels fell for lust of women ; that noah , abraham , and others of those tymes were righteous by the righteousnes of the law of nature : whither also may be referred his errors about freewill , satisfaction for sinnes , superstitious fasts & heresies of montanus , &c. not to speak how from his exposition of the lords prayer ( even in this book here alledged ) the papists would gather proof for their heresie of transubstantiation , and the lutherans of consubstantiation . againe , he disallowed sundry things , which were approued thē by others according to the truth : as , the baptisme of children , second mariages ; fleing in tyme of persecution &c. 4. but if they think there be such weight in tertulliās testimony , why do they thē at their preaching vse the lords prayer after their owne prayers , when as tertullian saith it vvas first premised as a foundation vvherevpon petitions from out of it might be built ? which ( admitting the vse of it , yet ) sheweth a quite different vsing of it then , from that which now is had . and let it here be noted by the way , that tertullian doth often in that book call it a forme & doctrine of prayer , and sheweth that christ hath not tyed vs to the vse of those words , but thereon to build our petitions as vpon a foundation , according to the need & occasion of euery one , following his precepts . why also do they not hear●en to tertullian , when in the same book he saith , * such things are iustly to be charged with vanity , as are done without authority of any precept eyther of the lord or of the apostles : and when other where he saith a the apostles did faithfully deliver to the nations the discipline they received of christ : and , b that no continuance of times , or supportation of persons can preiudice the truth ? if they wil belieue tertulliā , their book of cōmon prayer , their prelacy , priesthood , crosse , surplice , and the like reteyned among them , may justly be charged with vanity , as being never appoynted by the lord or his apostles . neither can al their gloses perswade that ever they came from christ , seing the apostles did not deliver them to the nations , as appeareth by their writings . nor is it material , whatsoever continuance of tymes they pretend , or supportation of persons they may have . none can preiudice the truth , as tertullian sayth . and for the poynt in hand except they can shew that the apostles did teach to vse the lords prayer as a prayer , it is neither the continuance of tymes , nor the supportation of any persons , be they old writers or churches , that can be admitted for a sufficient warrant , even by tertullians owne testimonie . for the churches that now are , we also refer it to our dealing with them . in our writings wee haue often signified our esteeming of them for true churches : and in our walking towards them wee haue alwaies shewed it . and this more particularly , as we have had more special occasion , in our dealing with the dutch & french churches of this city . when some of their members haue left them , because of their corruptions , and come to joyne themselues vnto vs , we haue required such first to deale with them , as with true churches alway should be done , namely , to advertise the elders first , and then the whole body of the church whereof they were ( if they might be suffered ) of the corruptions , for which they thought to leaue them . which we require not of such as come vnto vs from any false church . also , when some of our church have gone vnto them , and declined from the truth which they professed with vs , vnto their corruptions , we haue had dealing thereabout with the elders both of the dutch and french churches of this towne , that were by the rest of their elderships deputed therevnto , before we would proceed with the parties for this their revolt and transgression . and when the dutch church here received such to be members of them , as our church excommunicated for their sinnes , we also admonished their elders hereof , desiring that by themselves or by vs knowledg of these things might be given to the whole body of their church . which course of dealing we vse not with any false church or the ministers thereof . but to insert here in particular the dealing that hath passed between vs & them of this towne , would be to long : & their corruptions whereabout we have dealt with them , are already published . by which and this that hath here bene said , let the reader judg , wheth●r we haue not cause to put differēce between them & the other churches of these countries not so dealt withal . for not hearing of them in other of their congregations in these countreys , this i answer : that seeing by the mercy of god we haue seen and forsaken the corruptions yet remayning in the publick ministration and condition of these churches ( if they be al like to them of this city ) we therefore cannot partake with them in such case , without declining and apostasy from the truth which we haue our selues already received and professed . this also i speak of the members of our church so walking and witnessing as is aforesaid , and not of the members of their owne churches , whose duty i think it is , before they may leaue them for their corruptions , first to signify them vnto them , and by al good meanes to seek the redresse therof among them , as being members of the same body with them . which i take also to be the duty of all such , as haue knowledge of their corruptions , and being not of them , yet would cōmunicate with them in their publick administration . and this for true churches . but as for any false , these are not the duties or rules prescribed for them , but other of a far differing nature , namely , when once we see their abhominations , to separate from them without delay , and to witnesse against them even vnto death . the further declaration whereof with confirmation from the scriptures , the reader may have in divers of our treatises already published about our cause . as in the refut of mr. giff. in the answ. to mr. a.h. pag. 61. &c. but he provoketh me yet further , and saith , if he can , let him name any one church on the face of the earth now , that holdeth not false waies , yea even in their constitution in their account . although i might answer as before , that the calling of christ and the churches covenant to walk in the faith of his gospell excludeth al false wayes in all true churches ( whether as yet seen or vnseen ) and therfore in the reformed churches so acknowledged by vs : yet because he presseth me so earnestly to name but any one church , on the face of the earth , i wil giue the instance , of that church in the west parts of england whereof himself was a joyned member , when he separated from the church of england , and held the same faith with them and vs , from which he is now apostate . and let him now name any false way holden by them in their constitution in our account . of the distinction to be observed between faulty & false worship , i haue spoken * here before . as also , of his blaspheming the christians and their churches , despising neighbours , and robbing christ himself of his honour . and now by that which hath ben said , let the reader obserue how true it is in himself , that after al his earnest endevour not alone to wound but even to kill others ( if he could ) he hath turned the poynt of his weapon into his owne bowels . which will also yet further appeare in that which followeth , in his particular objection against the church whereof we are our selues , which he saith is not agreable to our description aforesaid . against our selues , the proof he bringeth is this that he saith , vve are not separate from al open offenders , and all false vvayes : and to shew this , he produceth many particular persons and matters . i answer : admitting al he saith against vs both the generall and particulars were true , yet notwithstanding the description aforesaid should stand good , and our church also agreable therevnto . for this yet should be the errour of our practise , not of our covenant or calling in christ : according to which we are alway to esteem or churches , as we haue ●hewed before . otherwise to reason as this man doth against vs , were to condemne those churches of asia , galatia , corinth , and all that ever haue bene from the beginning to this day . but to come to the particulars , his first allegation is , that he saith we reteyne among vs open offenders : and for instance the first he nameth is one cast. noted publikly in our meeting for cousonage &c. a man that is of the church of england , and so was a good while before this book of whites was published . sometyme in deed he lived among vs here , but after a while began to be so noted and dealt with , as fynding the church to be no harbour for him ( but that he must walk better , or be cast out from among vs ) he returned to england , where he knew he might be reteyned in that church , and where th. white his fellow will ( no doubt ) brook him well ynough . but further he saith , the elders here defended that he ought not to be publiklie dealt withall for it , because it was not orderly made publik . indeed we hold , that private sins should privatly be dealt with , & if any bring in publick without private dealing going before ( according to the rule given by christ , math , 18.15.16 . ) we suffer it not , but rebuke them that so walk . wherevpon this white himself being by one of the brethren reproved for so dealing with the party aforesaid , it seemeth still to stick on his stomack : and the more , because afterward vpon speach thereof my self with the rest of the elders signifyed our dislike of such disorderly and evill walking . touching his repentance , such as were then present do testify that he shewed it for such things as could be proved against him , & in other things stood vpon his clearing . but whatsoever this white hath w●itten here against him , now that he is returned to the church of englād , whither himself also is revolted , the point of his weapon ( if there be any sharpnes in it ) is turned into his owne ▪ and that churches bowels . the same falleth out in his next instance about adultery . for that man also is declined to the church of england , and there now liveth . thus still is he snared in his owne wordes . but yet further see how he dealeth here in that which followeth . he saith , r.b. was publickly accused in our meeting , for creeping in at a window to come to bed to another mans wife . that this is false , is testified by such as were present at the meeting spoken of , & that he did not creep in at a window so to do , we heare is testifyed even by themselves from whom the speach of these things did first proceed . which being so , why or how should wee deale vvith him publickly thereabout ? and touching the man spoken of , it is well knowen that as he hath sinned , so he hath also repented : having therein before him the example of david in israel . vvhere if vvhite had lived , as he hath done among vs , would it not have bene counted horrible ( to vse his own word ) so to have dealt with them , as he hath dealt with vs ? his next instance is of one of our elders , mr st. against whom he objecteth in particular three things ; the first , filthynes ; and of this ( to vtter his malice the more ) he speaketh fower tymes in a few leaves together , sometymes vnder the termes of filthynes with his wives daughter , sometymes of vncleannes , sometymes of incest . for which mr. st. hath called him before the magistrates here , for a sclaunderer , desiring that proof may be brought , or satisfaction made according to justice . the second is , supporting vncleannes in a woman a member of our church . the woman he hath named * before to be iud. hol. for which also she hath called him before the magistrates of this ci●● where we live . the third is , refusing to pray vvith his ovvn vvif● a member likevvise of the same church . towchi●g which he saith , h● is perswaded such cases may and do sometimes fall out between man and wife , as while ●he things so continew between them , they may lawfully absteyne from prayer the one with the other , vsing all good meanes within their own walles to be reconciled together , and to live so each with other as their prayers may not be interrupted : and that he hath not refused to pray with his wife , but in such case and maner . these are the particulars objected , after which a generall is annexed of vvorse cariage then this , often complayned of by his vvife & committed by him , which the man saith he is ashamed to mētiō . but as he nameth not the thing so neither doth he mention the persons to whome she hath complayned thereof . and if there were not some other cause in it , who can think that he is ashamed to mention any thing , that hath a forehead to write and deale so shamefully as he hath done ? towching myne ovvn knovvledg and dealing about these things ( to speak of no other now ) this th. vvhites wife can testify what i did therin a good while since , whereof she hath particular knowledg , and which by this dealing of his i am now constrayned to publish . as i remenber , about some five yeares since , there came vnto me a brother of the church yet living , and told me with great heavines how he heard that mr st. had lyen vvith his vvives daughter , and that the matter should be heard publikly in the church . i told him , this was the first tyme i heard it , & inquired who it was that reported it to him : which he told me : then i went my self & inquired from one to another of whom they had it , til by degrees it was brought to rose ph. ( now the wife of this th. white ) to whom when i came , she did for some things which she had spoken name her authors of whom she heard them , but for this , could name none at all , but confess●d it vvas her ovvne addition : and then shewed great sorrow and repentance for her so doing . now how she was rebuked for this her evill dealing at that tyme , i need not here to write : but leaving the reader to lay this dealing of hers then , and this of her husbands now together , and accordingly to esteem thereof : i wil proceed to the next instances here alledged . they are of iud. hol. tho. can. ia. ioh. &c. whome he mentioneth here by name to be open offenders , but sheweth not how or wherein . of iud. hol. i wrote before , how she hath called him before the magistrates hereabout . and so hath iacob ioh : a man that hath laid downe his life for the name of christ , being for his witnesse thereof condemned to death , and brought to the place of execution , & then reprived , & since ●ent away out of the lād as banished . and touching tho : ca. himself that here findeth fault for reteyning him as being an open offender , doth afterward in a postscript at ‡ the end of his book , fynd fault with the casting of him out , as being a man penitent , and therefore not so to be dealt withall , but still to be reteyned , according to christs rule , mat. 18.22 . luc. 17.4 . by his owne confession therefore , such as repent of their sinnes , are to be reteyned in the church , and not now to be counted for open offenders . vvhat meaneth he then thus to write of any persons repenting of their sinnes , as if while such were reteyned , the church were not separate from open offenders ; or they vnfit members for the fellowship thereof . but if all these things were as he saith , yet are they not in our constitution , and therefore not of weight against the description aforesaid . vvhich himself perceiving , attempteth therefore otherwise to prove that even in the constitution of our church we hold false wayes . vvhere note by the way , how himself yeeldeth that the fo●mer evils which he hath objected , are not in our constitution . and as not they , so neyther any other . for ( as we haue said , and are constreyned often to repeat it ) the calling of christ and our covenant , which is to obey the faith of the gospell , excludeth all evill & false wayes whatsoever . yet let vs consider the particulars which here he hath alledged the first is , that he saith we hold the lords prayer is not to be vsed as a prayer , contrary to christs expresse cōmaundement , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . i answer , if it be christs commaundement so to vse it , then did the apostles to whom it was given , both so vse it themselves , and teach others likewise to do . neyther of which can be shewed . then ought we alwayes whensoever we pray , to vse this for our prayer , seing christs expresse commaundement is , when ye pray , say , our father &c. and so the apostles and christians in all ages haue sinned , when they prayed and said it not . yea and these men themselues do aboue all other transgresse herein , who pray many tymes without vsing of it , and yet think it to be christs expresse commaundement , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . yet also when they shall haue considered , that it conteyneth all things , whatsoever from the beginning of the world to the end thereof haue bene or can be asked aright by any , it would be knowen with what reason or proportion of faith any particular person or church can so vse it as they speak , without speciall explication and application of the severall heads to them selues and their present occasions . secondly , he saith our opinion is contrary to the tenour of the words , having the forme of a prayer in all things , as our father , give vs , and amen annexed in the end , vvhich shevves that they are petitions not positions or rules vvhich are set dovvn in an other forme , mat. 7.7 . & 21.22 . 1 ioh. 5.14 . ansvv. if it be intended by the tenour of the words having the forme of a prayer , that it should be so vsed : then besides the answers already made , i ask , vvhether we should vse it , as it is set downe by mathevv , or by luke . for luke doth not onely vary from mathevv in divers words , but also omitteth the whole conclusion , yea and the word amen , which is here alledged for a proof that it is so to be vsed as is aforesaid . but in deed other vse may be made ( then these men do ) of the propounding it thus by way of petitions rather then of positions or rules , as in other places is done : namely , that christ hereby would shew the right maner of praying vnto god , that we may with confidence come and speak vnto him in our prayers , propoūding our requests holily , carefully , reverendly , without babling , according to our severall occasions &c. and so meeteth with the manifold errours that in the vse of prayer haue crept into the world : as may be seen among the papists , neutral-protestants , anabaptists , adamians , euchetians , and other hereticks idolaters superstitious and ignorant people : some thinking that we should not our selues come directly to god in prayer , but vse the mediation of some saints or angels &c. others , that reading on a book is prayer to god , though it be of other mens words prescribed vnto vs ; others , that we should repeat the same things over againe and agayne ; others , that we should vse sighs without words ; others , that we should not pray vnto god at all , seing he knoweth what we need ; and others , that we should ever be praying , giving no place eyther to other exercises of religion , or to any labour of the hands , &c. all which and the like heresies , and abuses of the heavenly and most comfortable vse of prayer , christ hath prevented and condemned by this his direction for prayer , propounded after the forme and maner aforesaid . 3. thirdly , he saith our opiniō is contrary to the vse of al christians , that we read of , as before out of tertullian and others may be alleadged . answ. then is it contrary to the vse of the apostles and primitive churches of whom we read in the scriptures . which if any could shew , that alone would end the question : whereas the vse & testimony of any other persons churches or ages cannot do it : as tertullian himself sheweth when he saith , that is truest which is first , that is first which is from the beginning , that is from the beginning which is from the apostles . but now admitting his proofs were good , that the lords prayer ( as it is called ) were to be vsed as a prayer , yet were it then further needfull to be knowen , whether it be christs cōmaundement that we should vse it for our prayer alone by it self , or that we should ioyne it with other prayers conceived by our selues withall . if he say , we should vse it alone , his owne testimony out of tertullian ( besides their own practise ) is against him , who saith , that it being premised as a foundation , other petitions may be built there vpō . and if he say , we should ioyne it with the other prayers conceived by our selues , the practise and testimony of the apostles is against him . for which see , mat. 8.25 . act. 1.24.25 . and 4.24 — 30. phil. 1.3.4.9.10.11 . & 4.6 . 1 thess. 5.17.18.19.23 . 2. the second thing is , that he saith we hold it not lawfull for the innocent parties , to reteyne the offender , as the wife her husband , or the husband his wife , if eyther partie haue committed adultery , no though the innocent party vpon the others repentance , forgiving the others sinne , be desirous still to live vvith the other party in the mariage covenant as before , but haue excommunicated the parties innocent for so doing . this in deed we haue held ( the most of vs ) heretofore : and some of vs are ‡ so perswaded still . and while we were generally so mynded , we also held it our duty accordingly to walk , taking the innocent partie that reteyned such offenders , though vpon their repentance , yet to be defiled and to liue in sinne with them , as * coupling themselues with an harlot , but since vpon further consideration of this question , discussing it among our selves , when we could not fynde divorce in the scriptures any where commaunded , but * permitted onely ; and that such offenders repenting thereof , are not to be reputed in that case of harlots , but to be † washed from their sinne & justifyed in iesus christ : we have vpon these and other like reasons altered our former judgement , and now haue thus observed and agreed thus concerning this matter , that where the magistrates inflict not death vpon such offenders ( as by the law of god they should ) it is in the liberty and power of the innocent party , eyther for that crime to put away the offender , or vpon their repentance to reteyne them : but this with these cautions , 1. so as themselues were no meanes or cause of the others so transgressing . 2. that they be no nourishers of them in the like for tyme to come . 3. that this remission and acceptance of the offender by the innocent party be done before sufficient winesses . 4. that this also ( as the mariage at the first ) be alway in the lord. and for the churches & the ministers dutie therein , that it is onely to teach and require of them repentance , after the example of christ , ioh. 8.10.11 . or els to see them cast out of the church , according to the apostles doctrine , 1 cor. 5.11.12.13 . this is that which now the most of vs do think concerning this question : being notwithstanding ready to heare , if any can shew vs better frō the word of god , which is the ground and rule of the constitution of our church . touching the case and excommunication of h. c. and e. h. his wife ( of which he speaketh both here and afterward againe ) how will he prove the persons spoken of to be repentant , when as the one of them denyed the fact , which she had before confessed to two of the brethren ; & the other in the iudgment of the church shewed himself vnrepentant many wayes , which i will not here mention . and if he do not shew them to haue repented , how hath he proved that for which he alledged them ? besides that there were also other causes for which they were excommunicated . as for that which he saith , divers of vs have accused themselues of adultery that so they might be ridde of their wives : this also he should have proved , and not onely haue said it . for we know that the persons whome he nameth ( w. h. and t. c. ) haue said and avouched earnestly , that they did it not to that end , but being perswaded that they ought not to continue with their wiues , having by their adulterie broken the bond of mariage between them . besides , if by him or any it could be proved so to be as he saith , he knoweth we would not beare with such wickednes , but deale with them according to their demerit : howsoever without all shame he do thus abuse vs. and here by the way let me a little note this mans crossing of himself , and bad dealing against vs still . before in the beginning of his book , he imputed vnto vs abounding with adulteries , and that above others , as if it were a sinne common and borne withall among vs , and this also more then among others . yet here now his objectiō against vs , about the case of adultery , is such , as any may see he thinketh we haue ben too severe therein , and that aboue others . what this our opinion was , is shewed before . wherein although we have chaunged our iudgment , as is aforesaid : yet even this particular sheweth how greatly we haue alway detested that sinne , and how contrary this white is to himself , that he might by any meanes deale wretchedly against vs. 3. the third thing is , that he saith we haue altered many things which we held in our constitution , as among other , that it was not lawfull for apostates to beare office . he saith , many things , yet nameth but one . towching which i might answer , that although many of vs did in deed so take it , yet it was not here so generally received by all as he seemeth to suppose , because that as there was divers times occasiō of question about it , there were of the brethren that shewed themselues to be diversely mynded : but at length the matter being often and much vrged , we did thus agree about it , that we think it not meet to chuse such into office as haue before tyme declyned frō the truth , without good caution first had thereabout : as namely , 1. that there be consideration had both of the nature of the thing done , & of the quality of the person , & of the estate of the church . 2. that the church have good and due tryall of such being returned , afore they chuse them into office . 3. that with these cautions , the fittest be taken into office whom god giveth in the present estate of the church . and all these things so mynded and observed of vs , as if at any time a better way be shewed out of the word of god , we be ready to receive it in the lord. this is that whereof hitherto we have agreed about this matter : the particulars whereof there will be occasion to set downe more at large hereafter . but now admitting that the whole church held it not lawfull for such to beare office , & afterward altered it ( as here he saith ) : yet was this alteration but of our judgement and practise , not of the churches constitution , as i haue shewed before : and therefore his collection herevpon ( that we held false wayes in our constitution , & by consequent , then were no true churches ) is both false & frivolous . 4. the fourth he propoundeth as a question , saying of vs , what would it profit them to b● free from false wayes in their constitution , ● their practise be not according to their profession ? but the question and point here treated on is , whether the description aforesaid be true , or not ; and whether we our selues be a true church according vnto it ? if we erre in practise , is it therefore a false description , or we a false church ? the churches of asia and achaia erred greatly in their practise , were they not therefore true churches according to the said description ? but yet where the practise is not according to the profession , it makes the sinne the more grievous . true , and therefore tho : white his sinne is vnspeakably grievous , as all they do know who haue seen what great and earnest profession of the truth he hath made heretofore , from which now he is grievously fallen . but for our selues he asketh further , sith their knowledg is but in part aswell as their love , are not they aswell as others subiect to erre in constitution aswell as practise ? if he meane in judgment aswell as practise , we graunt it : and we haue alwayes professed it : howsoever he write against vs , as if we were such as professed perfection of knowledg and practise in this life : from which errour himself knoweth vs to be as far , as we know him to be from trueth and godlynes . but if he meane by our constitution , the way of god wherein we are set , the calling of christ with the churches covenant , which giveth being vnto the church , then i answer , that difference must be put between the way of god it self , and our weak walking therein ; between the calling of christ together with the covenant of the church , & our sinning and transgressing in our owne wayes notwitstanding ; between the church considered in christ the head thereof , in whom we are washed from all our sinnes , guyded in in the way of truth , and preserved to eternall life , and between the church considered in the members thereof , as we are in our selves every one sinfull and subject daily to erre both in judgment and practise : and this not onely in the members severally , but in all of vs ioyntly together . if this distinction be not observed , who can shew that ever there was or can be true church vpon the earth , or how we can haue true comfort in this life to our selves , or esteem and discerne aright between things that differ , as we ought ? and if it be observed , any may see that all his exceptions against vs are of no moment . it is not our knowledg or practise , but our calling & covenant in christ that secludeth in our constitution all false and evill wayes , whether as yet seen or not . for which cause also i need not here stand vpon his needles and erroneous discourse about that which he calleth a shift , though in deed it be a point much to be respected , namely , ‡ that a true church must be separate from all false wayes , which they see . for as i haue shewed alreadie , we ought if we will consider aright of a church , to look at their calling and covenant in christ , which is from all false wayes whatsoever , seen or vnseen , to the obedience of faith . howsoever therefore we haue erred or may erre in judgment or practise ( as we and all men in this life are alway subiect to do ) yet doth it not therefore follow , eyther that the description aforesaid is not good , or that we are not a true church notwithstanding . further towching our selues , we acknowledge & professe before all men , that divers things heretofore obserued amōg vs at the first , we have since altered and do from tyme to time alter and amend , as god giveth vs by his word to discerne better therein : yea and herevnto are we bound and haue power in christ even by the constitution of our church . so free from all false wayes is the constitution it self , and yet we that are in it subiect to erre notwithstanding many wayes . so far are we also from the straunge opinion and impietie of them , that having in this latter age of the world disclaymed the pop●s person and rec●iv●d some truthes of the gospell , yet reteyning many abhominations of antichrist withall , would now stand still , and admit of no further proceeding or alteration among them . as if they had at first seen & received the whole truth and all the ordinances of christ. or as if antichrist should not now by degrees be discovered and consumed , as heretofore he rose vp and was exalted . 2 thes. 2. rev. 14. and 17. and 18. and 19. chap. with ier. 51.25.26.45.46 . and now by that which hath bene said let the reader obserue , whether this fellow haue not entrapped himself and his mother church , while he thought to haue ensnared vs. neyther let any be so simple , as to give credit in the cause of religion to any , further or otherwise but as warrant and confirmation is brought out of the word of god , which is the ground and rule of all trueth ; nor to refuse that which is approved by it , for the aberration , opposition , or calumniation of any whosoever they be . his abuse both here and other where in his book , of that which we haue published in print , i leave also to the reader to observe , and for himself to answer to him that knoweth his heart . as for i. n. whom he nameth in particular more then others whom he would insinuate , for borrowing and making no conscience to pay againe : he hath called him before the magistrates here , as others before mentioned : affirming & offring to shew how in the very particular alledged by white ( when he was here demaunded his proof ) for thus divulging him , he hath offred his creditour goods sufficient for his debt with overplus : and having had to deale with him for much , hath satisfyed all to a little , yet remayning : having also had hindrance by the sicknes and otherwise . and for the generall , we acknowledg that men ought to be carefull both how they borrow and how they pay againe , and should measure these , as all other affaires , with judgment and conscience , according to godlynes . psal. 37.21 . and 112.5 . rom. 13.8 . and we know also , that yet notwithstanding it is the case sometime of men fearing god , not onely to be but even to dy in debt : as we read of one of the sonnes of the prophets ; 2 king. 4.1 . but all this which hitherto he hath said , being not ynough , eyther for the vent of his owne rancour and malice against vs , or to please our adversaries whose favour he would purchase by traducing of vs : he now further pretendeth to frame an opposition between our practise , & the treatise entituled , a true description out of the vvord of god , of the visible church : thus setting himself to seek and abuse against vs whatsoever he can out of any of our writings . to shew his wicked dealing herein as it is , would require to insist vpon the particulars of that description , and to compare therewith the estate and walking of our church : & that would aske a long treatise , which here i purpose not . it shall suffice , that the reader , especially such as haue knowledg of our church which he blameth , and of the church of england to which he is returned , do compare them both with that description : and accordingly esteem of both as he shall fynd the estate of them to be in deed and in truth . thereby also will plainely appeare , how this adversarie neither writeth nor walketh in the feare of god : to whom notwithstanding he must giue account of al these things . and for the particulars he mentioneth , that the equitie of our cause and iniquitie of his dealing may better appeare , i will in the treating of them first set down the words of that description from whence he would draw his opposition , and then speak of the particulars themselues . and first , for the body of the church considered in her parts ( as here he would seem to except against vs from one to another , through the severall parts of this body ) thus it is set downe in that description of a true church , pag. 2. suerly if this church be considered in her parts , it shall appeare most beautifull , yea most wonderfull , and even ravishing the senses to conceive , much more to behold , what then to enioy so blessed a communion . for behold her king and lord is the king of peace , and lord himself of all glorie . she enioyeth most holy and heavenly lawes , most faithfull & vigilant pastours , most sincere & pure teachers , most carefull and vpright governours , most diligent and trustie deacons , most loving and sober relievers , and a most humble , meek , obedient , faithfull , & loving people , every stone living elect and precious , every stone hath his beautie , his burden , and his order . all bound to edify one another , exhort , reproue , & comfort one another lovingly as to their owne members , faithfully as in the eyes of god. thus it standeth in that description . towching which now i would aske , 1. whether he hold this description herein to be true and agreable to the word of god. 2. whether he dare deny iesus christ to be the king and lord of our church . 3. whether he acknowledg him onely to be the king & lord of every true visible church vpon the earth . 4. whether these be the offices and functions which he as lord and king hath appointed to his church , namely , pastors , teachers , elders , deacons , relievers . 5. whether these be had in the church of england to which he is now gone , and in whom they are there to be found . 6. whether the church officers there be so qualified , as here is set downe . 7. finally , whether if any would compare the estate of that church , in the body , officers , members , lawes , and walking thereof , with the description of a true visible church out of the word of god , he might not make another maner treatise and other maner of obiections against them , then this priest of theirs doth against vs. but to proceed , for the pastor ( with which office he beginneth first ) thus are his qualities and duties set down in that descriptiō of a true church , pag. 3. their pastour must be apt to teach , no yong sch●ler , able to divide the word aright , holding fast that faithfull word according to doctrin● , that he may also be able to exhort , rebuke , improve , with who●some doctrine , & to convince them that say against it : he must be a man that loveth goodnes : he must be wise , righteous , holy , temperate : he must be of life vn●eproveable , as gods steward : he must be generally well reported of , and one that ruleth his owne houshold vnder obedience with all honestie : he must be modest , humble , meek , gentle , & loving : he must be a man of great pacience , compassion , labour and diligence : he must alway be careful and watchfull over the flock whereof the lord hath made him overseer , with all willingnes and chearfulnes , not holding his office in respect of persons , but doing his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chief shepheard , &c. and afterward , pag. 4. the pastours office is , to feed the sheep of christ in green and wholsome pastures of his word , and lead them to the still waters , even to the pure fountaine and river of life . he must guide and keep those sheep by that heavenly sheephook and pastorall staffe of the vvord , thereby drawing them to him , thereby looking into their soules , even into their most secret thoughts : thereby discerning their diseases , and thereby curing them : applying to every disease a fit and convenient medicine , & according to the qualitie and danger of the disease , give warning to the church , that they may orderly proceed to excommunication . further , he must by this his sheephook watch over and defend his flock from raven●us beasts and the wolfe , and take the little foxes , &c. thus far that description . now among these qualities and duties he excepteth onely about two : the one concerning pacience , the other love and compassion : which also are such , as it is fitter for the church & people with whom i have lived , to speak therein then my self . neither will i set to excuse my self , knowing how subiect i am to fall into infi●mity , and to fayle in duty otherwise then i ought or would . 1. therefore towching the former , which is of impaciency , i will not stand to speak what i could , about the persons whom he nameth in particular , the dealing then vsed , the discourse now written , the other witnesses vnmentioned , and the like : neyther to alledg , how deserved reproof and severity is oftentimes accounted too much sharpnes and impaciencie ; and that anger sometymes is both needfull and lawfull &c. but omitting these things , i will for my self answer this , that i am a man subject to like passions as others be . and if moses that man of god and * meekest of all men on the earth , yet had this spirit so vexed , as he spake vnadvisedly with his lippes : what am i that i should not much more so think and acknowledg of my self , who am so privie to my owne weaknes , as i am ? 2. and for the second thing , which is concer●ing love and compassion , why should i think otherwise but that i may sometimes fayl therein ? yet this man for it of all other might haue laid his hand on his mouth , to whom ( when at fi●st he came a straunger & poore into these countreyes ) i gave meat and drink and lodging about nine or ten weekes together , till he returned againe into england . towching my father ( of whom he speaketh in particular ) i do and will alway acknowledg that i was so bound to him both by nature and for his care and charge of my bringing vp , as i never did or could do ynough to shew my self sufficiently thankful . and what then should i do speaking of any thing i haue done by any meanes that way ? and in particular for the tyme whē he was here , what i did & offered him to do , at his cōming hither , remayning here , and going from hence , with other particulars that might be noted , i will not here speak neyther , what my self could if it were anothers case , or what divers others know and could testify if it were needfull . neither wil i stand to shew what i could towching the pretence which he maketh about his being here in necessity . of m. sl. his abuse of me and maner of dealing at the time here intended , i will forbeare also to speak what he knoweth i might . if he at that tyme spake hereof ( as here is affirmed ) why might i not passe by it with silence , as i did at the same tyme a multitude of his raylings & contumelies , as white himself & the many witnesses then present did see and can testifie , if they will ? when shemei rayled on david , and rabshakeh on israel , david held his peace , and hezekiahs people answered not a word . 2 sam , 16.5 — 13. 2 king. 18.36 . yet now i thought good to speak and write thus much considering there is a tyme to speak , as there is a tyme to keep silence . eccles. 3.7 . pro. 26.4 5. but to leave these men , that which i will here speake further is this only , that it is needfull for all in all things carefully to observe and follow the rules prescribed by christ , not declining to the right hand or to the left ; not preferring one to another ; not yeelding to our owne affections & desires , but submitting them alway to the will and loue of god. as we read , that levi was commended of moses and blessed of god , for not respecting father , mother , brethren , or children , but preferring before them the keeping of the word and covenant of the lord : deu. 33.8.9 . and it is noted in the description aforesaid , among the pastors duties there mentioned , that he hold not his office in respect of persons , but do his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chief shepheard . in the performance whereof also the pastor and other elders and governou●s of the church are to be accounted and regarded as fathers . but i will no further insist herevpon : neyther speak i these things to excuse my self in any thing i have done or omitted otherwise then i should . i acknowledg my sinnes are many and my infirmities great : and my strength and salvation is onely in the lord iesus : for whose sake i have ( through his mercie ) suffred much rebuke , and i trust shall patiently beare it to the end . next he cometh to speak of the teacher , whose qualities and duties are thus set downe in the description aforesaid , pag. 3. their doctor or teacher must be a man apt to teach , able to divide the word of god aright , and to deliver sound and wholsome doctrine from the same , still building vpon that sound groundwork , he must be mighty in the scriptures , able to convince the gainsayers , and carefull to deliver his doctrine pure , sound and plaine , not with curiositie or affectation , but so that he may edifie the most simple , approving it to every mans conscience : he must be of life vnreproveable , one that can governe his owne houshold , he must be of maners sober , temperate , modest , gentle and loving , &c. and afterward , pag. 5. his speciall care must be to build vpon that only true ground-work , golde , silver , and pretious stones , that his work may endure the triall of the fyer , and by the light of the same fire , reveale the tymber , hay , & stubble of false teachers : he must take diligent heed to keep the church from errours . and further he must deliver his doctrine so plainly , simplie , & purely , that the church may increase with the increasing of god , and grow vp vnto him which is the head , christ iesus . hitherto is that description : wherein the qualities and duties set downe , be many and great . 1. yet cannot this adversarie satisfy himself with them all as he would : and therefore coming to make exceptions against the teacher , he fetcheth his first , out of the generall description of the church spoken of before , objecting that the teacher is sleyned with hypocrisie : and to proue it he alledgeth his dealing concerning g. i. m. sl. yet sheweth it not so much as in any one particular : thinking belike that some are so simple in themselues or so set against vs , as they will take his word for proof sufficient , who ●eyther knoweth that dealing himself , & in the things which he knoweth can ly so notoriously , as if he had the art of lying and would be a teacher thereof vnto others . 2. the second thing he objecteth , is apostasie : because that many yeares since having received this cause he did sometimes yeeld to heare the ministery of the church of england . but synce that tyme hath so approved himself among vs , both in the witnesse of the trueth & in the service of the church , as hath ben for the great help and comfort of vs all , and my self in particular bound to testify concerning him , as paul did of marcus barnabas sisters sonne , that that he hath ben my workfellow vnto the kingdome of god , which hath ben to my consolation . col. 4.10.11 . for the question it self and our account of apostasie , i shall write more particularly hereafter . 3. the third thing is , that he saith he hath ben a meanes to bring in and defend false doctrines . but what be they ? first , the latter of those two before mentioned . now that latter was about apostasie in the matter aforesaid . so as then himself accounteth them to be apostates , that having held our cause do afterward yeeld to heare the ministery of the church of england ; and that it is a false doctrine , that any such may afterward beare office in the church . and what then is this whites own case , who being a minister of the church of england , left both that church and ministery , and received our cause , and witnessed the trueth against them , and yet now hath yeelded not onely to heare but even to execute himself the ministerie of that church againe ? but he will say , that among the errata ( at the end of his book ) he noted this for one , that for the word ( latter ) we should here read , former . i have obserued it : and well in deed might he note it amōg his errata , who even while he would blame others of errour , doth so straungely erre himself as to put latter for former , one contrarie for another . but this might be an oversight ( as often falleth out in printing ) which therefore i would not haue noted , but that i think there is a worse thing in it : namely , that at first he both wrote and meant it of the latter , which is about apostasie , vntill he had himself apostate from the t●ueth and executed agayne his ministery received from the prelates in england : and therevpon now would alter it , measuring the doctrines of religion , not by the word of god , but as may best serue his own turne . and i am perswaded the rather thus to think for these reasons : 1 because when he began to set himself to be an enemie of this church and could not prevaile as he desired , he then began to make question about apostasie , whether any such might beare office in the church : 2. if we vnderstand it here of the former , as his errata now would haue it read , it is nothing to the purpose at all : seing there is in it no speach of any points of doctrine , but of hypocrisie ; and seing an hypocrite may notwithstanding teach true doctrine . for els it would follow , that neither iudas nor white himself did heretofore teach true doctrine when they preached , because iudas was and he is an hypocrite , both of them through hypocrisie betraying christ into the hands of his enemies . his other proof of false doctrines which he pretendeth is set down after his woonted manner , others that may be alledged : yet not naming any , which no doubt he would have done if he could , or if he durst adventure the triall of them with the teacher of our church whom he thus envieth and abuseth , who notwithstanding for his learning , wisdome , and godlynes , as also for his faithfull teaching of the church and vpright walking toward all , is so well knowen & approued , as neither he nor we need regard any adversaries malice & opposition against him . after this he commeth from the teaching to the ruling elders , whose properties and duties are thus noted in the description abovesaid , pag. 4. their elders must be of wisedome and iudgment , endued with the spirit of god , able to discerne between cause and cause , between plea and plea , and accordingly to prevent and redresse evils , alwayes vigilant & intending to see the statutes , ordinances , and lawes of god kept in the church , and that not onely by the people in obedience , but to see the officers do their duties . these men must be of life likewise vnreproveable , governing their own families orderly , they must be also of maners sober , gentle , modest , loving , temperate , &c. and afterward againe , pag. 5. their especiall care must be , to see the ordinaunces of god truely taught & practised , aswell by the officers in doing their dutie vprightly , as to see that the people obey willingly and readily . it is their dutie to see the congregation holily and quietly ordered , and no way disturbed , by the contentio●s and disobedient , froward and obstinate : not taking away the libertie of the least , but vpholding the right of all , wiselie iudging of times and circumstances . they must be ready assistaunts to the pastour and teachers , helping to beare their burden , but not intruding into their office . thus is the description . now towching our elders , he taketh here his exception against two of them . the first is , mr da. st. against whom it may be he is the more eagerly caryed , because he discerned so quickly into him , being a notable white hypocrite , and dealt so plainly & roundly with him as he did : and therefore also exc●pteth not a word against him , for his ability to discerne into persons and causes and to deale with them accordingly , nor for sundrie other of the properties and duties here required , though they be many and waighty . yet some things he speaketh of , which he had twise before , besides that which he hath also hereafter : so as i need not repeat and speak of them , as he doth againe and againe . yet somewhat more i will note here touching the particulars excepted out of the description . 1. the first is , of being indued with the spirit of god : of which we haue seen many and great testimonies in mr st. from tyme to tyme. he hath bene an auncient disciple of christ in the faith of the gospell this many yeares ; he hath given vp his life for the name of the lord , being adjudged to death , & so remayning many yeares vnder the sentence and dayly expectation thereof , till he was banished ; he now liveth still an exile for the same truth of christ ; and in the governement of the church hath had to deale with so many causes , persons , and dispositions ( yea oppositions also of sundry people ) as if he had not bene indued with the spirit of god , & that in great measure , he had never bene able so to have endured & waded through them all , as he hath done . which also may both strēgthē himself still in the lord , & stop the mouth of all his adversaries . and for this th. white himself , let it here be considered : 1. whether he be fit to beare any office at all , yea or to be so much as a member in the church of god , if he be tried but by this one particular , of being indued with the spirit of god. 2 with what spirit he hath written this book of his . 3. whether he haue not therein many times and sundry wayes blasphemed the holy spirit of god. for which he shall answer to the lord. 2. the second thing is , that he saith he would defend the transgressing of the lawes of god in himself and others . note , that he saith not he hath done it , but that he would do it . and how shewes he this ? not so much as by pretence of any one particular for proof thereof , yet this is the man that would perswade his reader he could make due proof of any thing he layeth to our charge . 3. the third thing is , about the governing of his house : for which he referreth to that he hath els where cited , and so do i to that which is there said . yet let himself take this withall , that if the things be true which are reported and observed concerning his own family , he might have found work ynough at home , and cause ynough to cast a beame out of his owne eye . but i will not follow his course in this maner ( howsoever it might be iust ) to deale with him as he doth with others . 4. the fourth is , of crueltie and tyranny : for proof whereof he allegeth that some of our owne members have complayned , that if they had a matter as cleare as the sunne against him , yet durst they not deale with him for it . but who be these some he speaketh of ? why doth he not name them at all ? or would he haue vs to think that they be some such as hate the light , knowing that their works are evill , and whome he therfore concealeth : that he might shew himself with his fellowes mr p● . and the rest to be fit receivers for such reporters ? or why did he not obserue , that the elders must be men of wisdome and judgement , able to discerne between cause and cause , plea & plea , & that it is their duty to repress the contentious & disobedient , froward and obstinate ? which by whomsoever it be done , who can otherwise think but such will be as ready to open theyr mouthes against them , as they are to please themselves in their own eyes ? but howsoever they may for a while lurk & walk in the dark , yet god in his time will bring them to light & discover them , as he hath done this white himself & sundry other the like heretofore . 5. the other of the elders he speaketh of , is mr st. mer. against whom he excepteth for apostasie . the matter was thus . about thirteen yeares synce , a litle while after he was come to this cause which we professe , being in the countrey with his friends , he was there perswaded that he would heare some of the ministers of the church of england preach : which he did once : and straightway after being affected therewith , did it no more . which also he made knowen himself , whereas otherwise it was vnknowen to vs. now after that time living with the church , and being wel approved among vs , he was about five yeares since chosen to be one of the elders . thus is the case : wherein now mark this hypocrites dealing . the qualities and duties required in the elders being so manie and great , as in the description are noted : was there nothing whereat he could except , but this onely ? and was his malice such , as rather then he would say nothing , he would except evē for that which himself accounteth to be good and lawfull ? let such dealing then returne into his owne bosome , and be a comfort to such as be thus abused by him . from the elders , he cometh to the deacons , whose qualities & office is set down in the aforesaid description of a true church , pag. 4. their deacons must be men of honest report , having the mysterie of the faith in a pure conscience , endued with the holy ghost : they must be graue , temperate , not given to excesse , nor to filthy lucre . and afterward againe , pag. 5. the deacons office is faithfully to gather & collect by the ordinance of the church , the goods and benevolence of the faithfull , and by the same direction , diligently and trust●lie to distribute them according to the necessitie of the saincts : further they must enquire and consider of the proportion of the wants both of the officers and other poore , and accordinglie relate vnto the church , that provision may be made . here he excepteth onely against one of our deacons , mr c. bow. to whom about eleven yeares synce , the magistrates of narden did once ( and not weekly , as this man intimateth ) send a litle money to be given to the poore of the church : which he together with one of the elders ( mr. g. kniston ) did accordingly bestow vpō such as they iudged to stand most in need . whereof because goodwife colg . ( the woman of whom he speaketh ) had not a part , therevpō by her meanes it seemeth was this report raised of mr. bow. which now this fellow hath published : and for which with his many such like instances , he is by mr b. called before the magistrates as a sclanderer . and touching the woman no marvel if shee so abused him , who hath synce in other things caryed her self so vngodlily , as she is cast out of the church , and so remaineth . and for mr. bow : how wel he hath approved himself in his office , i shal not need to relate : neither need he regard any sclanderous tong or pen , knowing his owne integrity , and having the churches testimony , to which he hath with good approbation ministred in that office now about fourteen yeares . after this dealing with sondry of our officers in particular , the adversarie commeth to speak of the elders ioyntly . against whom he obiecteth , that we called r.w. ( that is rose white his wife ) before vs in the first place , for a private thing . but it was , for that her child was kept vnbaptized ; and for that we heard she had entertayned ma. sl. at her table , who is a man excōmunicated by our church , whereof she was then a member . for these things onely was she called before the elders : and for the first , together with her apostasie from the truth which before tyme she had professed with vs , she was a while after excōmunicated by ●he whole church . for the latter whenas she answered that it was her husbands doing , without her liking , and against her will ( though not so signifyed vnto him ) & that her self gaue the excommunicate no countenaunce as approving his estate , we rested therein : instructing her onely how to cary her self in such cases for tyme to come , & exhorting her to be carefull accordingly to walk as by the word of god we have rule and direction . now for the hypocrite her husband himself , whereas he saith here , the church of christ do privately admonish a private sinne of a holy and loving affection : how will he shew this in the church of englād , whither he is gone ? or doth he hold it not to be the church of christ ? or that it is by some priviledg not bound to the ordinances of christ ? not to speak how himself by his owne mouth is condemned , whiles he acknowledgeth that christiās ought thus to walk , & yet publisheth he careth not what , things private or publick , true or false , and that with a wicked and malicious affection . lastly , from the officers he cometh to the people : objecting against them vncleannes , cousoning , disgracing , backbiting , and vndermyning one of another amongst themselves . but this onely in generall termes : and so might any vnclean mouth , and backbiting sclanderer , traduce any people in the world . will he now then apply to himself & to his practise and † consorts in this work , that which the prophet speakes , with our tounge will we prevaile ; our lippes are our owne ; who is lord over vs ? psal. 12.4 . why boastest thou thy self in malice , ô man of power ? the loving kindnes of god indureth every day . thy tounge imagineth mischief , it is like a sharpe rasor , ô thou worker of deceit . thou lovest evill more then good , lyes more then to speak the truth . selah . thou lovest all words that may destroy , ô deceitfull tounge . but above all , mark now the wickednes and blasphemie of his conclusion of this point . which that it may the better appeare , & with lesse praejudice of others be regarded , i will put the case in an instance of iacobs family , before christs coming in the flesh , and of the church of corinth , synce christs time : and therein will alledg ( not things forged , perverted , and abused , as this enemy doth against vs ) but true things onely and such as are recorded in the scriptures themselves . that the family of iacob was the church of god , cannot be denied . now in it we fynd , that iacob having two wives and two concubines , his wives envied one another ; rachel stale away her fathers idols ; dinah his daughter was deflowred ; his sonnes deceitfully beguiled the sichemites ; simeon and levi slew them in a rage ; reuben committed incest with bilhah his fathers concubine ; the other brothers hated envied and sold ioseph into egipt ; and coloured it with lving to iacob their father ; iudah lay with thamar his daughter in law , taking her to be an whore , &c , will now any man of knowledg and fearing god infer therefore herevpon , and say , were these then the church ▪ the saincts , the israell of god ? were these the fathers of the tribes of israell , so greatly renowmed through all posterity ? were these the stones , the precious stones , embossed in the high priests brestplate ? were these the twelve patriarks for the tyme of the law , answerable to the twelve apostles for the tyme of the gospell ? yet such you see are the conclusions , but in deed the delusions , of this blasphemous wretch . but see it further in the church of corinth vnder the gospel . in which , were schismes and dissensions , strife & envying , wrath and backbiting ; vncleanes and wantonnes , fornication and incest , hurting and jnjurying one of another , abusing of christian liberty , sitting in the idols temple at the idols feast , declining from the lords ordinance in the vse of the sacraments , prayer and prophecy ; denying of the resurrection , &c. if now this white paynted hypocrite had lived in that age and church , as he did with vs of late , would he nothing haue respected their faith , their order , their constitution , wherein they were set by the apostle : but reprochfully have concluded and inferred against them , as here he doth , saying , are these then this beautifull ? yea most vvonderfull church , ravishing the senses to conceiue of it ? are these the saincts then marching in such a heavenly & gracious aray , where every stone hath his beauty , his burthen , and his order , where no law is vvrongfully vvrested , or vvilfully neglected , no truth hid or perverted ? thus indeed he shall shew himself to be one of those ministers of sathan ( spoken of in that epistle ) who can transforme himself as though he were a minister of righteousnes ; whose e●d ●hal be according to his workes : howsoever f●r a tyme he may d●lude many poore soules and frustrate their expectation , as already he hath done . as for w. ha. & e. ha. whose words ( as if they were of waight ) he recordeth , he should haue remembred , that these his companions are such whose mouth is no sclander , two such like as himself , poor soules in deed as touching faith and godlynes , but abundantly rich ( so to speak ) in dissembling , lying , rayling , backbiting &c. and therefore fit witnesses for such an accuser , their owne sayings fit testimonies against themselues , that they never needed to have separated themselues from the church of england , as they did , being such also as this society would quickly have thrust them out from among vs , so living and practising as they do . no marvell then if when they had seen our estate , they were frustrate of their expectation , & therefore returned agayne to the church of englād , knowing it to be a fit cage for such birds . and hitherto of the second head of his treatise , concerning the ●●scription of a visible church . according to which , if we would compare the estate of the church of england , in the members , officers , worship , ministration , &c. as he hath done ours : let the reader consider , whether it would not in truth be found so cleare a testimony against them and their practise , as neither he nor all his consorts ( the prelates and their chapleynes ) could ever be able to turn away . neyther that onely , but even their own description of a visible church , as it is set downe in their articles of religion agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. artic. 19. which is thus , the visible church of christ is a congregation of faithfull men , in the which the pure word of god is preached , and the sacraments be duly ministred according to christs ordinance , in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same . which ( to vse his own words ) is a cleare testimony , & a pregnant sentence of condemnation against themselves and their practise . of which also i have otherwhere spoken heretofore , which yet re●ayneth vnanswered . of the third head of th : white his treatise . the third is , that he saith we condemne others , in those things that we would and do practise our selves . which he pretendeth to shew in divers instances . 1. the first is , for communicating with open offenders . for which he refererth to that which is before shewed : and so do we : adding this further , that our church is so far from communicating with such , as it excommunicateth them , when once they are convinced and found obstinate : which himself knoweth to be true . 2. the second is , for making men swear to accuse themselves . a thing which neyther my self practised to i. l. ( as here he falsely objecteth ) neyther is at all practised among vs eyther publikly or privately that i know of . and for the matter of incest so reproachfully divulged against mr st. this man knoweth himself that rose white his own wife was the rayser of that opprobrious report , that he had lyen with hi● wives daughter : and that she both confessed it vnto me her self , & could not deny it here before the magistrates , when she was by mr st. now of late brought before them about it : as this man himself also is for a sclanderer , as i shewed before . for his not denying it for the clearing of himself , though he were requested for the satisfying of weak brethren so to do , he saith that he remembreth it not . but being thus dealt withal , he hath written this answer himself , which here i will annex out of his owne writing given vnto me hereabout . the malice and envie of this t. w. ( against me da. stud. ) hath appeared to be exceding great , both in his often speaking of me in his book as he hath done , and especially in this place , where making an end of mentioning my name , he thought he vvould powre forth his rancour to the full , therefore thus he saith , yet would not their elder da. stud. never so much as deny the matter of incest with his wives daughter , for the clearing of himself , though hee were requested for the satisfying of weake bretheren so to do . in these words of his , he would make the vvorld beleive as if some came vnto me in frendly vvise to know vvhether i had committed incest or no , and as if they required my direct answere vnto it for the satisfijng of weak bretheren . to vvhich his vvords i answere : first thus : that there never came any so vnto me as he falsely forgeth , and therefore herein he lyeth egregiously . secondly i aske vvhy he did not set downe vvhat my answere vvas to such as he insinuateth came vnto me . for if my answer vvere evil , no doubt he vvould not haue spared to sett it dovvn : if it vvere good , they vvould and ought to have rested in it . further it is to be mynded , that he hath not named them that came vnto me , vvhich if he had done , himself saw that then his wickednes vvould the more appeare . thirdly this i do affirm , that such as have spoken vnto me ( about this slander and reproch raysed of me ) in any christian and orderly manner , i have answered them to their full satisfaction : and to such as disorderly and reprochfully have spoken to me thereof , i have , ( mynding the persons as i esteemed them ) eyther passed by them with silence , or else vrged them to do the vvorst they could vnto mee , being ready to answere them according to their dealing vvith me , as i have now endevoured to do vvith this t. w. & rose his vvife ( the first author of this accusation ) vvhom i have called before the magistrates , for slandring of me . fourthly being thus provoked by him , my answer now is , that if t.w. vvith his father if he vvere living ( being reputed to have skill in the black art ) had the help of him , and of all the divells in hell ioyned together , yet should he never be able to prove this his vvicked slander vpon me . moreover i vvould demaund these things of t.w. as followeth : first vvhether he vvill denye that his father spake thus of him , i misse my ayme if ever this my sonn t.w. do proue a good man. secondly , vvhether he wil deny that he knowes not some that can tell of his evill dealing about clokes . thirdly vvhether he vvill deny that he hath not dealt yll vvith some about a bible . fourthly : vvhether hee vvill deny that he hath committed the like sinne as t.c. hath , vvhom he mentioneth in his book . lastly i ask him , vvhether if he do not presently deny these things , or any the like , that by any shal be demaunded of him , he be content to have it taken for granted that then he is gilty of them . if this be his iudgment , let him take it to himself , as vvise as he vvill be othervvise mynded . and thus i leave him & this his dealing and account thereof , to him that iudgeth righteously , and so end vvith this saying , an hypocrite with his mouth hurteth his neighbour , but the righteous shal be delivered by knowledg , da. st. 3. in the third , he hath againe cowched divers vntruths together . as when he saith we condemne the dutch churches , for baptising the seed of those that are not members of their church . which is not so : but we dislike in the dutch church of this towne , that they baptise the seed of them who are not members of any visible church , and besides admit not the parents themselves to the lords supper . great difference there is between these two , not to be members of their church , and , not to be members of any visible church . and this it seemeth himself perceived , and therefore kept not our words , as he had them set downe in the book alledged by himself . but yet more , in that he saith my self with the rest could offer to receive mr deuxburies child to baptisme , who neither was neyther would ioyne himself a member vnto vs. for mr deuxb . ( who dwelt about fifteen miles from vs ) being desirous that we would baptize his child , we wrote vnto him that we could not admit of it , vnles he would make profession of the same faith with vs , & be careful so to walk , eyther with vs or with some other church , in the same truth of the gospel , as god for his dwelling & estate should give him opportunity . which he not performing we baptized not his child . and of this refusal of ours , himself spake but a day or two before his death , to one of the mēbers of our church , a soldier who was then with him in the army where he was slayne . which things being so , how then should it be as he saith further , that we were offended at g : i. for withstanding it , when we our selves so wrote and dealt in it , as is aforesaid . or how had he any hand in this busines , when mr deuxb . writing to one of the elders , had answer from them all ioyntly , of whome he was none ? 4. in the fourth , his bad dealing doth yet further appeare : it being a matter , wherewith himself is acquainted , and yet propoundeth not the case truely , as he knoweth it to be . vve have indeed misliked in the dutch church ( not churches , as he speaketh ) of amsterdā that consisting of so great a multitude , it is but one , and yet meeteth in three severall places : by meanes whereof , the whole church cannot come together in one ; the ministers can not together with the flock sanctifie the lords day ; the presence or absence of the mēbers of the church cannot certainly be knowen ; nor any publick action be rightly performed . which reasons we signifyed to themselves in our dealing with them heretofore . on the other side , we misliked also that a few people , being straungers together in one towne , of one language , of one profession in religion , & having not before tyme their peculiar officers , should in such case yet divide themselues into severall churches : for which i required example or warrant out of the scriptures , and alledged my self divers reasons about this question . and what contrariety now is there in these things , being laid together as they ought , with their true and due circumstances ? such perhaps as the false teachers would pretend against paul , when he circumcised timothee , act. 16.1.3 . and yet would not circumcise titus , but withstood the false brethren that vrged it , gal. 2.3.4.5 . the others he speaketh of , were himself and some other with him , who had left the church of england , and came to dwell here . touching whom , seing he pretendeth that they ioyned not to vs for divers disorders amongst vs , i wil here advertise the reader a few things cōcerning them , and those also specially out of their own letters , which being as their owne children shall also be their iudges . whē they had left the church of england , as having a● antichristian ministery , worship , confusion , &c. they first joyned in & to a church in the west parts of england professing the same faith with vs. a while after , they came over hither , & at first communicated with vs : but afterward ( being about twelve or thirteen ) they ioyned themselues here as a body together , to walk in the same faith and way as we do ; reputing and calling themselves a church , distinct from vs , and in their letters to the church of the west countrey thus inscribed them , the church in amst. to our bretheren the church in the west , partakers of the same heavenly vocation , &c. and in the letter wrote thus , for our consultatiō & resolution thus it is , to meet apart by our selves , aswell for the redresse of disorders that may arise , as also for the administration of the word , expecting the blessing of god which hath not chosen vs for our multitude , seeing we were the fewest of all others . and againe in the same letter , for our own estate , though our hope to be a body distinct in our countrey vvere , yet is not our hope to be a distinct body in a straung countrey frustrated , but rather accomplished . and afterward againe speaking of vs , and themselues , they say , for the other churches estate , though that acknowledgment of them vvere graunted , yet all things considered , vvhether god doth not offer vs occasion to increase the number of the churches , and our selves to vvalk together in holynes to the lord , vvho have had better experience one of another then of that churches estate , that by this meanes the adversaries reproches , of one church , and flocking therevnto , setting vp one head , may be stopped , is the thing vve pray you to ponder . thus they wrote in a generall letter together . and in another of theirs written in particular by this t. white & tho. pow. we ( say they ) through gods mercy haue our meetings now apart from our bretheren the church in amsterdam , building vp our selves vvith that small ability that god hath inabed vs vvithall &c. as also receiving such members as vve fynd meet and desirous of our fellowship . and afterward in the same letter , w● haue had one meeting already together , vvherein m. w. is ioyned . consider that vvhich is vvritten , exo. 7. ● . and pray vvith vs that the lord vvould s●nd the northvvynd and the southvvynd , the one cold the other hote , luk : 12.55 . that is , the liuely graces of his spirit in the preaching of his law and gospell , to blow vp that our garden may be fruitfull , cant. 4.16 . but not an eastvvynd vvhich vvithered ionas gourd , ion 4. thus wrote they then of themselves . by which may appear , both what they intended , and for what . they intended to be a severall church from vs , though they were but a few , and of the same faith , living straungers together , in the same towne , &c. and the cause why they did it , that they might redresse disorders among themselves ; that they might be a distinct body in a straung countrey , as they purposed in our native countrey , before they came over hither ; that they might encrease the number of churches ; that they might stop the adversaries reproches , of one church , and flocking therevnto , setting vp one head ; that they might receive such mēbers as were desirous of their fellowship ; and that they might also themselves be a garden , fruitfull , &c. if these things were so as then they wrote , how saith he now in his book , that the cause why they would not ioyne to vs , was for disorders amongst vs ? how do his letters and his libell agree together ? specially seing in the same letters , at the same tyme , they write vs to be their brethrē the church in amsterdam ; of whose estate they had not that experience &c. belike he had forgotten the old saying , mendacem oportet esse memorem , a lyer had need have a good memorie . and further , if it were as he saith now , why did they not then so alledg , that we might haue insisted therevpon ? why shrank they from the handling of the question between vs , which we would have discussed by the scriptures , had not they refused as they did ? but ( if some be not mistaken ) there was an other cause then any of the aforesaid , which they will not make knowen , namely , that mr po. & this white might have bene officers of that church , whereof they had little hope among vs to satisfie their desier : which whether it were so or not , themselves know best . and howsoever , yet with what face can this hypocrite write as he doth , that they would not joyn to vs for divers disorders among vs , when but even a while after , they returned to the church of england , which they knew certainly to have not onely divers disorders , but even a multitude of the corruptions of antichrist the sonne of perdition . well might he write of these things , as he did in another letter of his to mr s. w. respice finem , look to the end . for as they sowed , so have they reaped ▪ not having the wind of gods grace to blow vpon them that they might be a fruitfull garden , but the worme of gods judgment to smite them that they might become a withered gourd . and this according to his owne prophecy ( though as caiaphas speaking more trueth then himself intended ) when to the same mr s. w. he wrote thus also , certainly if god doth not worke mightily for vs we shall come to desolation . balaam even then when he would have cursed israel , prophecied the truth , though against his will. 5. the fift is a meer calumniation , like the rest . in the place quoted , we blame in the dutch ( as we do also in the french ) church of this towne , that the rule and commaundement of christ , mat. 18.15.16.17 . they neyther observe , nor suffer rightly to be observed among them . ( if this man-pleaser could approue them herein , why doth he not ? ) for our selves we do carefully observe it , & think all the churches of christ are bound so to do . for deciding of matters which are of publick nature , they are made knowen and decided among vs in & by the whole body of the church , and not by the elders alone . yet therein we have this order , that all such matters be first signifyed to the elders , to whom the oversight of the church and affaires thereof apperteyneth : by whom likewise they are proprounded advised & treated of also publickly , as the cases do require . of which points we have spoken sufficient ( at least till we be answered ) in our apologie against the oxf. doct. pag. 63.64 . notwithstanding if any come to the elders , eyther for our advise or to have some matters brought to the church , we shew them what we think to be best as we are perswaded our selves : & yet debar not any from proceeding further , so as they will answer their doing to the church , as there the case shal be found to be . and this to be our practise and maner of walking , i think this man himself knoweth well . for t. c. his matter , the elders did not decide it ( as he falsely saith ) but shewed him what we our selves thought to be best according to godlynes , and required of him to do no otherwise in it , then he could answer to god and to the church . of the matter it self , as also of w. h. is spoken here before , pag. 33. and for that he saith here , seeing w.h. his wife put him away , who can constreine her or any other in like case to retein such if themselves be not willing . for the bringing of matters in a third place to the elders , as they have obiected : mr p. himself & the rest of them have ben answered , that we do not so : but that when in the third place a matter is to come vnto the church by that rule of mat. 18. this is the order we keep therein , that first knowledg thereof be given to the elders , the overseers of the church , then that they seing the matter to be such and so dealt in as is to come to the church , it be by them publickly propounded and prosequuted as is meet : whereas otherwise both the church might be troubled and mens names and private matters be brought in publick without iust cause . and this we do , not adding to that rule of christ ( as this man and his followers have still objected ) but having that care and keeping that order in the observation thereof , as the scriptures els where lead vs vnto . for which , see 1 tim. 5.17.18.19.21.22 . & 4.14 . heb. 13.17 . rom. 12.7.8.1 . thes. 5.12.13.14.27 . rev. 2.1.7.8.11.12.18.29 & 3.1.6.7.13.14.22 . with exod. 3.16 . & 4.29.30.31 . & 12.21 . and with 1 cor. 14.40 . by which also may appeare how frivolous it is , that he saith we alledge the same reasons for our practise , which we approue no● in ●he dutch. as if we should put no difference between the eldership alone hearing and deciding the publick matters of the church , & between the elders according to their office having knowledg advising and propounding of such matters to be heard and discussed by the body of the church jo●ntly together ; or as if the reasons which warrant a lawfull thing , should also beare out that which is vnlawfull ; or that we should not therefore disallow them , when by any they are so applyed ? and for the abuse of that rule of mat. 18. whether through evill affection in partiality and envie , or to an evill end to cover filthynes withall , if any do so as he saith ( measuring others it may be by the length of his owne foot ) they are to answer it to god , who knoweth the heart and tryeth the reynes to give to every one according to their works . our duty is , for that which man may see & judge , to have that rule as all other the ordinances of christ carefully observed among vs : whereat let him consider if his heart grieve not more then it doth that the church of england , of which he is , neyther doth nor can in their estate observe that nor many other the ordinances of christ : by reason whereof they cannot be esteemed a true church of christ in such constitution : as i shewed before , pag. 8. 6. for the sixt , which is about the worshipping of god in the idol tēples of antichrist , can he not put difference between the ordinarie publick worship of the church in such places , and the occasionall receiving of a●mes therein by the poore ? neither between the benevolence of a church to the ministers or saints of christ ( which is ●he sacrifice spoken of phil. 4.18 ) & the relief of a city given to the poore that dwell among them , be they of any religion whatsoever , one or other ? which i speak not , as discommending the care they have for the poore among them ( which is very great , and much commendable ) but to shew the nature of this action , & how it is performed . nor will he discerne between the solemne appointed worship of god by the church so assembled together , and the private duties of thankfulnes , of salutation , or the like ? or doth he think we hold it not lawfull to walk vp and downe in the idol temples , as they vse in powles at london ; or if we be walking there , to lift vp our hearts to god as occasion may be ; or if we meet some there of whom we have received a benefit , to give thē thankes , or if their temples were made prisons ( as in powles aforesaid there are divers ) and some of vs committed thither ( as heretofore sundry have bene by the prelates ) that we would not pray there , yea & preach also as there might be occasion ? or when we did so , would he therevpon inferre ( as now he doth ) that we cōdemne others in those things which we would and do our selues ? a senseles conclusiō : but wel beseming a baals priest , that hath a good will ( if he had ability withall ) to plead for baals altars and houses . as for the poynt it self , and the place of deut. 12. we haue written already in other treatises not yet aunswered . therefore need i not now write more about it here . but let the reader obserue here how this idoll priest himself yeeldeth these places to be idoll temples , and the temples of antichrist : yet bringeth no warrant for the reserving and appoynting of them to spirituall vse in the worship of god : but saith playnly , if the cōmandement deut. 12. be moral ( which he cannot deny , if he hold it morall for the images and altars ) that then no civill vse of them may be had at all , much lesse spiritual . and yet i suppose he will not deny , but iehu the king of israel put the house of baal to a lawfull vse , 2 king. 10.27 . 7. the seaventh is , that whereas we shewed the dutch here , that they vse a new censure of suspension , which christ hath not appoynted : yet we ourselves suspended m. s. many moneths together before his excōmunication : but this he should have proved so to have ben . the dutch suspend their members from the lords supper , and yet admit them to participation of the word and prayer . so did not we . but the case was thus : the said mat. sl. having declined from the truth which before he professed with vs to sundry errors of the dutch here , it required many dayes to deale with him and convince him in them all , which we were carefull to do . now when some of them being handled , he was admonished by the church to repent and returne to the truth , and he notwithstanding obstinately persisted against the voyce of christ so speaking vnto him , there were some of vs who thought it not lawfull to have any more spirituall cōmunion with him when he came to our publik metings . whereabout there b●ing some question , and all the particulars being not yet finished , it was agreed for the present , when he did so come , to deale with him about the residue of the poynts yet remaining . which being donne , and divers dayes ( week after week ) being so imployed for the convincing of him in all : the church did then excōmunicate him , as here is said , and so he remaineth at this day : a man overcome with the love of this world ( here called his preferment ) and never a whit too good , when he was at the best , to be of our fellowship , which is in the gospell of iesus christ. for which , he that thinketh any too good , is himself stark naught . 8. for the eight , about non residency , howsoever he speak of mr br. his absence fr●m the church , and this without any leave thereof , yet himself knoweth that he with some others of vs was vpon speciall occasion sent by the church into england , and there imployed a long time about that busines : wherein also what good paynes he took & with what great carefulnes , even this white himself was often a present beholder & witnes . when he stayed there , vpon other occasion , he saith it was not so long as here is deceitfully pretended , ( though longer then he or we would have had it ) and that he could not then possibly do otherwise , as things fell out . but i will not here insist to speake , what may be done in cases of necessitie or speciall occasion ; or to put difference between factours , servants , and men agreing together on mutuall conditions ; nor vpon the difference that is between ministers of the word and the deacons ; and specially the difference between one man having two three or fower benefices ( as they call them ) by reason whereof , though he be still with some of those churches , yet must he needs be a non resident all his life , and between one church having two three or mo deacons , by meanes whereof though some be absent vpon occasion , yet there are other vsually present to performe the duties apperteyning to the office notwithstanding . but of these things i will not stand . for that which we desier and approve is , that he which hath an office should waite on his office , rom. 12.7.8 . 9. now followeth the last of his instances , but not the least for the lyes and sclanders conteined therein . the first particular here spoken of is about this , that we blamed in the dutch church of this towne , that they receive vnrepentant excommunicants , to be members of their church : which by this meanes becommeth one body with such as be delivered vnto sathan . but this man had no list to set it downe in our owne words , because he hath no love to speak of things as the truth is . and if there were no other corruption but this onely in the church aforesaid , let such as are of judgment consider whether we have not just cause to put difference between it , & the other churches of these countreyes that stand not in like transgression : ( of which we spake before , pag. 25. ) and whether we which know these things and have had dealing with them thereabout , may suffer the members of our church to joyne with them in this estate , in any part of their worship and ministration , be it the preaching of the word , or any other whatsoever . yet notwithstanding it is false that he saith we excommunicated our owne members onely for hearing the word preached amongst the dutch or french : for those whome yet we haue cast out hereabout , it hath bene partly for their revolting frō the trueth which they have professed with vs , to the corruptions of these churches ( which declining as they may shew in hearing the word preached among them in such estate , so are we accordingly to esteem thereof ) and partly for other sinnes withall , whereinto they have fallen . and a most shamelesly it is , that he saith we are our selves one body with an excommunicate from the french church . the party whom he intendeth ( now one of the elders of our church ) was not excommunicated by them , but did himself leave them for their corruptions , after he had long & much dealt with them in all good manner to the vttermost of his power thereabout , & they persisted therein notwithstanding . the next particular here spoken of , is about our dislike of them for that they observe daies and times , consecrating certaine dayes in the yeare to the nativitie , resurrection , ascension of christ &c. which this adversarie himself knoweth we do not : though his conscience be so seared as he careth not how he bely vs and abuse the reader , so he may seem to say something against vs. and straunge it is ( if he were not impudent out of measure ) that he is not ashamed to say that we observe their holy dayes as much as they do . a thing which is false , in both the instances which himself giveth hereabout : the one being about the shutting of shops , the other about our publick meetings for worship , on those dayes . for towching the first , such of vs as shut their shops , do it not in respect of religion or with observance of publick worship as they do , but partly thinking it to be a thing civill which may be done at the magistrats appointment , seing no spirituall observation is vrged vpon vs withall , partly chusing rather so to do then to pay the penalty whereto otherwise they are lyable , it being far more then in compasse of the day they could by their labour obteyn . others of vs do on those dayes follow their ordinary labour , & some have bene called and have answered it before the magistrates , alledging divers reasons of their doing , in regard of gods requiring but one day in seaven for publick worship , and permitting six for labour , & because of the popish and superstitious observance of these tymes still reteyned , and other the like . and what though in these things , being matters of such nature and question , we have differed in judgment ? is it any other thing then the christians in the primitive churches , & at this day , & in all ages haue ben & may be in divers cases subject vnto ? for the second , it is a notable deceitfull vntruth , that we have our meetings for worship on their holy dayes : for although their easter and whitsunday falling alwayes on the lords day , & the feast of ascension of the fift day on the week called ascension thursday , we haue our publick meetings on those dayes , yet it is not at all in respect of their holy dayes , but because that weekly we have our meetings on those dayes all the yeare thorow . besides , if we observed their holy dayes as much as they do , we should have a religious regard of them & have our publick metings for worship as they have , on christmasse day & the morrow after , also on the morrow after easter and whitsunday . which dayes together with the former he knoweth they observe , and we not . yet shameth he not thus to write as he doth : as if his lords the prelates had given him a dispensation to lye and calumniate , no matter how , and that now he is growen so wicked and shameles that he counteth it nothing so to do , if thereby he may please his lords or pleasure himself : god thus justly punishing his former hyprocrisie and present apostasy : & so matching his writing with his walking , as it should be an evident testimony in the sight of all how vndeniably his owne collections are true in himself , as in his lords too , which so injuriously he would apply vnto vs ; and how far he is behind the very heathen , even medea her self which said , video meliora proboque , deteriora sequor , i see better things & approve them , but i follow the worse : wheras himself , after the example of his patrones , though he see better things , yet doth not so much as approve them , but set himself to oppugne them what he can possibly ; and for the worse things , doth not onely follow them , but approve and applaud them most shamefully : yea and therevnto bringeth pretended allegation of scripture , as if it were no sinne to take the name of god in vayne , and make the scriptures serve his owne fancy , yea his lyes & calumnies . for which certainly the lord will not hold him guiltles . and where he pretendeth against vs as if he could declare false and impertinent allegation of scripture , and yet passeth by it vndeclared : the reader observing his purpose and dealing may easily gather , that if he thought himself able to do it , he wanteth no will therevnto . that which he referreth vnto in a book already published , will not prove it so much as in part ; no though himself with all his ayders do joyne withall . the point is about the scriptures alledged by vs against the yearely chaunge of the elders in this dutch church , and not continewing in their office according to the doctrine of the apostles and practise of the primitive churches : which scriptures be these , rom. 12.4.5.6.7.8 . 1 cor. 12.11.12 . &c. act. 20.17.28 . 1 pet. 5.1.2.3.4 . and numb . 8.24 . &c. where there be many reasons expressed and included , plainely disproving the yearely chaunge and dismission aforesaid : as namely , the authority and work of the lord making them overseers of his church , and placing them as members in his body ; the duties of wayting on their office , of feeding the flock cōmitted vnto them , of attendance , care , and watchfulnes therein ; the account to be given thereof vnto the lord ; and the reward to be hoped for from him according to his promise at that day ; and other the like . neither can any example , or reason of sound consequence , be shewed frō the scriptures for warrant of their practise . but i need not speak further of this point , vnles some would vndertake their defence against vs in the particulars wherein we have had to deale with them . which neyther themselves could performe , nor any other would yet so much as attempt for them , though some great learned men have had just occasion therevnto , if they could have done it . as for that he saith of the book aforesaid lying vnanswered , we have divers reasons for so leaving it . 1. it is but part of a book , printed before the rest was finished : and to see the whole , might be of speciall vse if an answer should be given vnto it . 2. synce the writing thereof , it pleased god to visite him with sicknes that he died : and seing he is dead , we do so leave him : forbearing now to write what we could : a● is well knowen to many . 3. he did not , like as this man , leave or contrary our generall cause and testimony against the church of england : but held it so himself , as of late going into england he was there taken and put in prison for this cause , where he died vnder their hands . these reasons among other we have of not answering it : being notwithstanding alway ready ( as there is just and needfull occasion ) to answer for our selves , & to defend the trueth and equity of our cause & dealing , or wherein we haue erred to acknowledg and amend it , as we have often signifyed heretofore . now for that wherewith he cōcludeth , even false accusations of whole churches , & would shew it by comparing the 7. accusation in our letters to mr iunius , with the practise of the dutch churches : it is to be observed , that the particular corruptions there noted whereof we have advertised the eldership of this dutch church , be ele●ē in all : so as this enemy graunteth himself ten of them to be true : and for the other , that one whereof he speaketh , namely their yearly chaunge of elders , it also is so true , as the ministers themselves deputed among them to deale with vs , & knowing best their owne estate & practise , did never so much as once offer to deny it ; and their continuall practise ( if they have not left it of late ) avowcheth it against all gaynsayers . yet this flatt●rer ( to speak somewhat for them ) shameth not to say that is false which is very true : like as here before against vs he affirmed those things to be true which are very false . a fit servant for his lords the prelates , with whom it is cōmō in all their dealing against vs , to account & give out of the truth that it is falsehood , and againe of falsehood that it is trueth : that in himself and his masters may be seen verifyed that saying of plautꝰ here alledged , iustum non iustum , non iustum iustum , quod vobis placet . let them therfore consider their wayes in their heart , and lay their hands on their mouth : els let them know that out of their owne mouth they shal be judged , according to those denuntiations & reproofs here spoken of , both by the apostle , rom. 2.1 — 9. and by the prophet , psal. 50.16 — 22. and by christ himself , mat. 7.1 — 5. luk. 19.22 . which i leave this hypocrite with his fellowes to ponder and apply to themselves : and will now conclude this third head of his treatise , and our answer to his false accusations , with that saying of apuleius , insimulari quivis innocens a quovis nebulone potest : or rather with that answer of nehemiah , it is not done according to thes● words that thou sayest : but thou feynest them of thyne own heart . and with that of salomon in his proverbes , be not a witnes against thy neighbour without cause : for wilt thou deceive with thy lippes ? and hitherto concerning the third head of his treatise . of the fourth head of th : white his treatise . the fourth and last is , that he saith we have drawen the curse of god on our selves by rash vniust & wicked excōmunication . where first in generall observe these things . 1. that we have the power and vse of excommunication : without which no church can walk aright in obedience of the faith of christ ▪ nor long continue without manifold errors and corruptions prevayling among them . 2. that even by this appeareth we hold that evill men may creep into and arise in the church . 3. and that when they are once knowen and will not be reclaymed from their evill , we approue them not , but cast them out from among vs. and so this fourth poynt being well observed , overthroweth the whole tenour and intendement of all his writing against vs. now to come to the particulars . 1. about thirteen yeares synce , this church through persecutiō in england , was driven to come into these countreyes . a while after they were come hither , divers of them fell into the heresies of the anabaptists ( which are too common in these countreys ) and so persisting were excommunicated by the rest . then a while after that againe , many others ( of whom specially i think he speaketh he●● ) some elder some younger , even too many , though not the ha● ( as i vnderstand ) fell into a schisme from the rest , and so many of them as continewed therein were cast out : divers other of them repenting and returning before excomunication , & divers of them after . as for him in particular of whom he speaketh that he was distracted in mynd , 1. he was not then so knowen to be , neyther so reputed of his fellowes , but onely that he had some trouble of conscience which disquieted him . 2. yet sithens it hath bene pleaded by some that he was dist●acted , wherevpon to himself it hath ben offred by the church , that if he would come & affirme as much publikly in the church as he and others had said more privately to some of vs thereabout , and that the contrary could not by any be shewed against him , then the church would acknowledg that they offended in casting him out , and he should be received agayne . but this he would never yet do : although it have bene signifyed to him againe and agayne by my self and others , that thus the church had agreed concerning him . and thus standeth his case . for the excōmunication in generall , it was in deed recalled : wheervpon c.s. one of the schismed here mentioned by him , wrote vnto me thereabout . ( and here the reader is to know that my self with some others of vs , both of the officers and other brethren , were then prisoners at london , while these things fell out in the church being in the low countreyes . ) now in his letter he wrote , that the brethren had revoked it as rash and vniust , denying also that he and the rest with him had made the separation &c. with this letter i acquainted the other also then in prison : & we thought it best ( considering the case as we had before ben informed and tooke it to be ) to send his letter to the brethren aforesaid , that they might see how he had written thereof , & we might know the truth of things how they stood . wherevpon the matter being againe and further examined both by them & by vs ( as in such estate and distance of place we could do ) it was in the end agreed vpon by the church , that the excommunication was iust and not to be recalled , notwithstanding the errors in the maner of proceeding thereabout : which the church then did and alway is ready to acknowledg , and wherevpon they had before revoked it 〈◊〉 vniust , onely in respect of that cir●umstance , but not at all clearing the schismed of their transgression they stood in ▪ which at that time the schismed themselues agre●d vnto , confessing the cause they stood for , to be evill . and now both for their good whom this matter more specially concerneth , as also for the satisfying of others , and that th. white his abusing of vs may better appeare , i will here briefly note downe the grounds whervpon the excommunication was esteemed iust & not to be recalled : as i find in some writings reserved about this matter : which was thus . 1. the excommunicated were found to be abettours of an evill cause , and therevpon to have made the schisme at the first : and so were guilty of the sinne for which they were proceeded against . and this was then agreed on all hands , as we were let to vnderstand . 2. they also were afterward divers tymes and wayes reproved & admonished thereof ; they had sight of the witnesses testimonies about the matter then in question ; they heard the reasons gathered by one of the brethren for their conviction ; the church sent vnto them of the best able of the brethren to deale with them , besides that we wrote from london concerning this matter , exhorting them to peace &c. and all this before the last message of the church vnto them , which was that they should ●●me to the church , & there they should be convicted , or if they came not they should be cast out . 3. they yet remayned impenitent and despised the churches voyce and authority . which appeared by their answer to the churches message aforesaid , being to this effect , that as by cōmaundemēt or as vnto the church they would not come at any time : and , that whereas some of them were to go out of the towne on the morrow , and all of them were at that time vnprovided to maynteyne their cause , if they might have a hand with them in appointing another day , they would come to conferre with them and mainteyne that they did . in which answer be divers things shewing their impenitency and despising the churches authority . 1. their answering resolutely , that by comaundement or as vnto the church they would not come at any time . 2. that they would have an hand in appointing the day when they would come . which might have greatly infringed the libertie & power of the church , to yeeld vnto schismaticks an equall authority in such cases . 3. that their comming should be to conferre and mainteyne their cause , not to shew repentance . besides that some of them also dispitefully asked the brethren , when they would draw out their woodden dagger , &c. now whereas it hath bene objected , that they refused not simply to come , that charity would have taken things in the best part , that the church might have appointed them another day &c. it was also graunted that these and all such things should have bene duly weighed afore the censure had bene executed , and that whatsoever errour was committed therin is alway to be acknowledged : yet for the reasons before alledged , the censure was deemed to be just and not to be recalled . and for those he speaketh of that withstood their receiving in againe , even this sheweth that there were then among themselves which thought the excommunication was not to be revoked . yet were not they therefore excommunicated , as he saith : but were earnestly exhorted to rest in their difference of judgement , and notwithstanding it peaceably to continew with the church , if it were but till they could vse the advise and help of others for the better clearing of this conttroversy which had so long & much troubled thē . yet they would not , but left of all communion with the church : and so persisting , were for this cause excommunicated : who also afterward vpon acknowledgement of their e●rour therein were received agayne . finally for the reversing agayn of the censure aforesaid , who k●oweth not that even the best and wisest men have their second & 〈◊〉 thoughts : and that in some cases this befell the prophets & apostles themselves : howsoever here he terme it a dallying : esteeming others belike by himself who hath so chaunged and rechaunged his faith and profession as if he thought he might dally with religion at his pleasure . but the lord is not mocked : as he hath sowed to the flesh , so let him look of the flesh to reap corruption . for as every man soweth , so shall he reap . gal. 6.7.8 . 2. of the second instance , which is about such as have heard the word preached in the dutch church , i have spoken before . if he had named the divers he speaketh of , it might have bene shewed that they were cast out for divers causes . as m. sl. whom onely he nameth in particular was , for receiving and maynteyning these errors , 1. the baptising of the seed of such as are no mēbers of any visible church of christ , neyther can be themselves received to the lords supper in any such church . 2. read prayer , or a set forme of prayers prescribed by men for th● worship of god : as also , mainteyning that that onely is not to be vs●d in the worship of god , which god himself hath commaunded . these are other things then onely hearing the word preached , as this proctor for excommunicates objecteth agayne and agayne in his libell . and both the teacher and my self told him aforehand what would follow , if he ioyned with the dutch in these corruptions aforesaid . which m. sl. himself knoweth to be true . as he doth also that the other matter here intimated , was about their temples ( whither he was to bring the schollers to the publick worship ) : concerning which there being then some diversity of judgement , and himself affirming that he had alwayes held it lawfull to heare in those places , & so had ‡ before practised , after he was come to this cause , i said ( as i remember ) that it should not trouble my self , & for others i would therein perswade them the best i could : † but whereas we heard that the dutch baptized all that were brought vnto them , & vsed also read prayer in their worship , i told him also that if these things being so he should partake with thē therein , that thē his case would prove such as we could not keep cōmunion together . yet he went on , & persisted , and so for his receiving and mainteyning of these corruptions among them , about baptisme and read prayer , he was cast out of the church . by which also , this mans dealing and depraving a●ter his maner , may here be observed . and for the generall , of excommunicating such as being of vs have declined to the corruptiōs of these churches , the law of god requireth that all sinne and sinners be censured without respect of persons . and who ever would have blamed ‡ such of the primitive churches as were free from the errors found in † others of them at the same tyme , about the resurrection from the dead , fornication spirituall and bodily , iustification by workes of the law &c. if any of their members declining therevnto they should have excommunicated them for this cause . if the particulars noted in this dutch church be not errors & corruptions , why is not that poynt vndertaken to be cleared ? if they be such , why should we not for them accordingly censure our members declining therevnto ? 3. of the third , which is about the question of apostasie , ( often spoken of by him who is so notable an apostate himself ) i have spoken somewhat before , pag. 34. now further the reader is to know , that while my self with some other of vs were prisoners in england , there fell out question about this matter among the brethren here in these countreyes . whereof knowledge being given vnto vs from hence , we wrote a letter vnto them , setting downe what our judgment then was about this point , & the reasons perswading vs therevnto . and this is that wherof he speaketh here : which we wrote to the church being absent from it . whereabout some of the brethrē from hence wrote vnto vs a while after , how they were contrarie mynded , and their reasons thereof . afterward it pleased god so to dispose as we were discharged out of prison , and came over hither . being here , there was speach and question againe about this matter : and some of vs did now consider further about it , more being observed out of the scriptures about this point , then at the first had ben . and so began the alteration of our iudgment to be such as it is . which was a good while before ever we heard any thing concerning mr a. so very false it is which here he writeth thereabout . and for those that were cast out , these things are to be observed : 1. both the poynt in generall , and the case in particular was considered . for the generall , these questions were spoken of , whether the priests being speciall types of christ , the exception out of ezech. 44. where they are spoken of , do yet include all persons , tymes , offices , and conditions , &c. also , whether even in the tyme of the law , the levites ( which were not of the priests ) falling to idolatry , and afterward repenting , might not againe have and execute the same office & function as they had before : and in the new testament , whether iohn mark at first refused by paul for his apostasie , act. 15.37.38 . was not afterward received by the same apostle and employed in the ministerie of the gospell notwithstanding , col. 4.10.11 . &c. for the particular , it was also considered , what the exceptiō was about ( which is spokē of before , pag. 42. ) that thēselves could not deny but he was a man very fit for the office in all other respects ; that he was already in office , and the thing before this tyme not knowen to the church concerning him ; ( although if it had bene knowen , consideration were to be had of the nature of the thing done , of the condition of the person , of the estate of the church , and other the like circumstances to be observed thereabout ) that both before and after his being in office he had well approved himself to and with the church , to the great help & comfort of vs all , &c. 2. yet notwithstanding they persisted and left of to participate with the church in all his ministration therin . 3. we entreated them that they would not so walk , but to continew with vs as before , at least till we might eyther among our selves or by others have further help and dealing about this matter : but they would not . wherevpon they were for this leaving of communion with the church , together with other causes which he noteth not , cast out : and some of them a good while synce vpon their repentance received in againe . for that which he saith of not answering the reasons in writing , note these things : 1. we were absent from the church , when we wrote the reasons aforesaid in a letter sent hither : but now were here present with the church to speak mouth to mouth with any that did or should make question thereabout . 2. we also signified , that if it were so that we were absent , having like occasion as before , we would then write as before we had done : but being now present to speak and reason together , we thought it best so to do . not to speak any thing now of the persons and their dealing that would have it otherwise . 3. yet when the matter was still vrged , we further advised & agreed about it , of some particular circūstances or cautions to be observed therin : which were set down in writing , and given to the ruling elders , for any that would come to read or reason thereabout : and vpon occasion we gave the same also in writing to the eldership of the dutch church here . these things t. white himself knoweth , and heretofore thought it sufficient to satisfy any that were reasonable : howsoever now he write thereof . and where he saith we would not suffer the reasons to be read in our . meeting , being requested there vnto : sometimes in deed we did not suffer it , wishing the parties that were contrary minded vnto vs to shew their reasons out of the word of god ( whether they were those conteyned in that writing or any other ) and so to reason from that ground , which is the onely rule of our faith : sometimes also for the more satisfying of all , they were both read and reasoned of in our publik meeting . as for playing sathans part , let him apply it to himself , who hath heretofore both by word and writing out of the scriptures approved our cause against the antichristian estate of the church of england , and having now left and oppugning it , yet hath not , ( nor ever can ) vse as good meanes to disprove it , and to approve the estate of that church whither he is returned : with whom also it is so common throughout his book , to obiect against vs things very false , & to conceale or deprave the things he knoweth to be good : and all this to calumniate the truth and vs that wi●nesse it before the world . for that which he annexeth of mr ad. such as were here present , do neyther remember it , nor think it to be true : howsoever he affirme it : and if it had so bene , yet who knoweth not that alteration of practise doth vsually follow alteration of judgement ? and if in other cases , why not in this also ? finally we do here know but in part : & are subiect to erre both in our judgment and in our walking : as i deny not but in these things thus much vrged vpon vs we may have done . yet our desire hath bene and i trust shal be alway to try all things by the word of god , and to keep that which is good . 4. the fourth instance is of w.a. cast out for recalling a former schisme , spoken of a little before in his first instance . whatsoever w.a. now say , the church heard and see what then he spake & did . if he do still repent of that schisme , standing to the acknowledgemēt he made , that matter is soone ended . to the writing of th. white and others about this matter , this answer was given by the elders ( which the messengers can testify ) that it being about excomunicatiō , it was a matter which cōcerned the whole body of the church , and therefore if they had any thing to say thereabout , they should come to the church at our publick meeting , and there they should have an answer . but thither came they not . so themselves kept back an answer from themselves . and still th. vvhite keepeth on his course to write falselie . what the schisme here spoken of was & whereabout , see before , pag. 65. as for appealing , seing it is from an inferior iudge to a superiour , we hold it antichristian to enterteyne or admit of such appeales from one church to another , because christ the lord hath given like & equall power & authority to all his churches on the earth . yet notwithstanding may and ought one church to help another , by any good meanes they can , as there is occasion . but what is this to the appealing and tryall whereof he speaketh , when such as be excōmunicated by this church , would have their matters and the like submitted to the dutch and french churches here , or any other els where ? for which themselves could not by the word of god shew any warrant : and against which we had & have these reasons following . 1. that the iudge which god hath ordeyned in these cases , is to be submitted vnto , and not to any other , deut. 17.8.9.10.11.12 . 2. that the highest iudge ordeyned now of the lord for all sinners by ecclesiasticall censure , is the church , even that particular church whereof the sinner is a member , mat. 18.17 . with 1 cor. 5.4.5.12.13 . 3. that all churches of christ haue equall power , and are not one over another , but have christ himself over all , and in middest of all , rev. 1.13 . & 2.1 . and therefore in vrging our church to submit to another church , they sought to draw it into antichristiā bondage , which we might by no meanes yeeld vnto , gal. 5.1 . rev. 14.9.12 . 4. the sinne and sinner being bound in heaven ▪ how may the cause be submitted to men on earth ? mat. 18.18 . 5. if the censures of the church , then also other doctrines of the gospell & our faith in christ , might aswell by the same ground be brought to like submission . 6. it is contrary also to the confession of our faith published , artic. 24.25 . 7. and this way there would be no end of strife : for if the two churches disagreed , a third & higher must be sought vnto by like reason ; and if yet they agreed not , an higher then that : and thus might the vsurped supremacy of the romish church and pope grow and be established . 8. finally if we might & would assent , yet these dutch & french churches do not heare any such matters ; but they are heard and handled onely by the eldership ( by them erroneously put in place of the whol● church ) as we have had experience vpon other occasions . now though we might not ( for these and like reasons ) submit as they required , yet we also signifyed that if these churches or ministers , or any els whosoever , could shew vs by the word of god to have faulted in any thing , we were willing and ready to heare them . these are our reasons and this is our refusall and walking in such cases . which this white knoweth full well , and therefore his sinne is the greater , to write and deale notwithstanding as he doth . 5. the fift instance , which is about receiving the penitent offenders in cases of adultery , is spoken of before , pag. 32.33 . to which i refer the reader : & will now onely aske of him , whether he would have any to reteyne vnrepentant adulterers and adulteresses , and so to partake in their sinne ? it may be some of his lords the prelates can quickly take him out as bad lessons as this : specially he being so apt a scholler for such maisters . yet may not we reteyne such members in our church . and if we should , what exclamations would he make against vs , as in deed justly he might ? here therefore mark the wickednes of this impe of sathan , common to him with such enemies of the truth and church . if any stand from and against the church , be they never so lewd & wicked , he is ready to favour & partake with them . but if any continue with the church , though they repent of their sinnes as david , he will not cease to maligne and abuse them , yea & to defame the whole church therby , as if it were a company of adulterers &c. as before in his book hath appeared . 6. the sixt instance is of his owne wife , rose white , excommunicated for two things , though he mention but one : 1. first for not bringing her childe to baptisme ; 2. for falling from the truth which she had professed with vs , to the corruptions of the dutch church here where she ioyned her self a member . and the man he speaketh of , her husband , is himself , matches one for another . for the abuses which he speaketh of , to give an instance , was not one of them our observing of that rule mat. 18.15.16.17 . in such maner as we do ? for which when he had reproved the church , and was after a weeks respi●e called vpon for his proof , he was glad openly in the church to say he was vnprovided : and came no more to our meetings to prove it at any tyme afterward . yet such is his face as he will boast of his reproving abuses amongst vs. towching his wives alleadging of the example of timothees mother that did not circumcise him , and no other cause mentioned but that his ●ather vvas a grecian , he saith she could get no answer ; whereas the whole congregation then present knoweth how many things were answered about it , & sundry reasons vsed about this case of not bringing her child to baptisme , vpon her husbands forbidding : as , that the covenant of grace made with the church in christ , was without respect of persons or sexe , there being in him neyther male nor female , gal. 3.28 . and therefore though the father should refuse or neglect , the mother hath right and ought to present . that she might not deprive her seed of the sacrament of baptisme vpon her husbands will , any more then her self of the lords supper if he should forbid her , because that by the believing womā the children are clean , as well as by the believing man. 1 cor. 7. ●4 . & she now being of our church & her husband not , we were to call vpon her for performance of her duty . that baptisme was a signe of incorporating into christ , and salvation by his death and resurrection , so as her neglect of baptising her child could not but be iniurious both to christ and it . when these & the like perswasions were vsed vnto her , and she had nothing to answer but asked why then timothees mother did not circumcise her child , our teacher ( as he remembreth ) answered that the cause was not certainly knowen , for it was not expressed in the scripture : if she were living and present we would demaund of her self , but she is now dead and gone , wherefore it were hard for vs to determine of the cause , but this ro. white was living and present & must give account of her own wayes : that we must not walk by example but by law of god : for even the most righteous may offend , & moses himself faulted in neglecting the circumcising of his sonne . exod 4. and if timothees mother being a iewesse did mary with a gentile an infidel , who therefore would not suffer her to circumcise her sonne , & she obeyed him ; that such mariages were forbidden of god and vnlawfull : and then she sinning in marying with him , why might she not also sin in keeping her child vncircumcised for him , if that were the cause as now this woman pretended ? wherefore she was put in minde rather of the examples of other good women , as abigail , 1 sam. 25. the elect lady . 2 ioh. epist. also of some spoken of in the machabees ( though that book be apocrypha ) which lost their liues for causing their children to be circum●ised . 1 mach. 1.63 . 2 mach. 6.10 . it was also demaunded by some of vs , how it could be shewed otherwise but that timothe●s mother might be ‡ in the faith of the gospell before he was born and he in that respect might be vncircumcised ▪ also , whether the women in noahs tyme should have refused to enter into the arke , or the women of israell in moses tyme to go themselves with their childen through the red sea , if their husbands had bene against it ? both which were types and resemblances of our baptisme , as the scripture sheweth , 1 cor. 10.1.2 . 1 pet. 3.20.21 . these and the like reasons being then shewed and spoken of , and now vpon this occasion thus noted downe , let the reader here consider of this mans dealing and his wives , and accordingly esteem thereof as now he findeth it to be . his scoffing at the teacher of our church , not onely for his words then vsed , but even at the office it self which he executeth ( and therein at the † ordinance of christ ) hurteth not him nor vs , but encreaseth this skorners sinne & judgement vpon his owne head . for that which he saith of myself , i did in deed with hold my consent towching the first cause of her excommunication about the childes baptizing : making some doubt about the case aforesaid , partly in respect of the husbands authority over his family , partly because of the objections arising about the case & scriptures alledged out of act. 16.3 . &c. yet notwithstanding i gave my cōsent as touching the second cause thereof , for her falling from the truth to their corruptions here : and that so , as i said also i was willing for it to pronounce the sentence my self , if the church should so appoint . by which compared with his writing may appeare , how still he keepeth on his woonted course against vs , & hath himself drawen fourth this vnfolding of his evill dealing and his wives too . for the others of whom he speaketh ( viz , mrs sl. goodw. ch. & r. m. ) they were excommunicated for other causes then he hath noted downe . and it is not our maner to cast out any for differēce of iudgement in such cases , if they be content notwithstanding to walk peaceably with the church , and to cary themselves towards the excommunicates as they should by the word ●f god. but if they joyne with them in their evill , as some of these more specially did with his wife , then are they also for so doing justly subiect to the ●ame censure with them , as in this case likewise came to passe . that which he speaketh of the magistrate is false : he did not forbid , but perswaded vs not to do it . though if he had or should forbid vs any thing which god requireth at our hands , we have learned to obey god rather then man : as we did then answer him , that what we did , we would alwayes be ready to approue by the word of god. and now by that which hath bene said , let the reader judge whether this fellowes hard forehead verify not the oratours saying , he that 〈◊〉 passeth the bounds of modestie , becommeth imp●dent out of measure . excommunication we vse as the holy ordinaunce of god , to recover the parties that have sinned ( if so it be his will ) and to keep the church from the leaven of their wickednes . if we did it not , we should dishonour god , and be accessary to their evill . but observing it , we vse the remedie which christ hath given vs , for their good : and if it work not so in them , then is their destruction the more iust vpon their heads , and we are cleare . neyther doth the long suffring spirit of meeknes hinder but that due execution of the lords judgement vpon obstinate sinners be inflicted . and being so done , neyther will this mans cursing vs for good hurt vs , not his blessing of himself & others in evill help them . therefore to his many curses denounced against vs , i will give no other answer , but say with salomon , the curse causeles shall not come , but fly away as a birde : and returne vpon him that allegation out of the prophet , as he loved cursing , so shall it come vnto him , and as he loved not blessing , so shall it ●e farre from him : and as he clothed himself with cursing like a garment , so shall it come into his bowels like water , & like oyle into his bones . and for his blessing of himself and others in evill , i will referre him to that denuntiation of moses against every such one , as when he heareth the wordes of the curse , yet blesseth himself in his heart , saying , i shall have peace , although i walk according to the stubburnes of mine owne heart , 〈◊〉 adding drunkennes to thirst : the lord will not be mercifull vnto him , but then the wrath of the lord and his ielousy shall smoke against that man , & every curse that is written in the book of the law shall light vpon him , and the lord shall put out his name from vnder heaven , and the lord shall separate him vnto evill out of all the tribes of israell , according vnto all the curse● of the covenaunt , that 〈◊〉 written in the book of the law. deut. 29. ●9 . 20.21 . for that which he speak●th of our tents , it is to be noted that this man himself desiring heretofore to partake with vs in the lords supper , did in our publick meeting compare our and all true churches to the tents of shem , & the assemblies of the church of england ( whither now he is returned ) to the tents of corah , dathan , & abiram . what remayneth therefore but that according to the words of his owne mouth and course of his own walking he be left to the lord the iealous god that judged corah & his cōpany ? who also is the god of shem , & will performe to the sōnes of iapheth whō he perswadeth to dwell in shems tents , according to his promise made of old to abraham sonne of shem , & father of the faithfull of all nations , saying , i will blesse them that blesse thee , and curse them that curse thee . gen. 12.3 . for that which he annexeth about fatherles children , himself knoweth we approve no such dealing . and some of the persons to whom they were comitted are departed this life . the living belike could not serve his turne : but he will digge into the graves of the dead . who cannot answer for themselves . or if he meane of any that are alive , why gave he not ( after his maner ) some knowledg who they be ? would he not that the matter should have ben considered and answer made accordingly ? or would he that we should speake what we heare concerning a fatherles child . who was long since with that woman who is now this whites wife , and ran away from her : who knoweth best her self how she vsed her ? for our selues we mislike all hard and evill vsage of any , much more savage and cruell dealing to fatherles children , who ought most of all to be pityed and holpen . if any such have more specially felt their part of our common troubles and poverty , why will he not consider his lords the prelates their savage and cruell dealing with vs , who have made many poore orphanes and widowes among vs , besides many other great calamities brought vpon vs by their meanes ? of which to begin to speak were to enter into an ocean sea : so many and great they are ▪ and not vnknowen to this white himself : howsoever he can like now to sayle in that sea , where putting away a good conscience , he hath concerning the faith made shipwrack . for that which he saith of w.c. the man himself affirmeth that be spake not these words at all which he hath printed of him : and that he told this whites wife before the book was published , and spake it synce to his owne face , that it is a lye . some words he confesseth he spake which were evill : but those also spoken by him about a yeare before he ioyned to the church , as himself testifyeth . yet white obiecteth his speach as the confession of our own members , affirming also what he hath printed to be spoken before many witnesses . which if it were , yet till we should know it , & after knowledg & dealing with him find him obstinate in such evill , how could we but have him still a member among vs ? but if such speaches , yea or publick writings , of the members of the church of england would content men , as white will with this content himself , how easy were it for his one to to produce a thousand , and none of them perverted neyther ? the conclusion of his libell , is like the rest . the censures of christ in his church , he blasphemously calleth our fond excommunications . which † before in like manner he termed our buls of excōmunications . suerly god that will not hold him guiltles that taketh his name in vaine , will never suffer such prophanation of his name and ordinance to go in vaine . such de●iding and despising of the lord and his ordinances is fearfull . and a fearfull thing it is to fall into the hands of the living god. all his lords the prelates authority and authorizing of his book to be published ( as himself alledged here before the magistrates ) will not help him before the lord , who is a consuming fier . from whom what can he or any so persisting look for els , but to be cast out from his presence , and to have their portion among the cursed to heare that fearfull sentence , go ye cursed into everlasting fier , which is prepared for the divell and his angels . mat. 25.41 . and thus hath this esau shewed himself to be one of those prophane , of whom he speaketh here , hardened in his sinne and prophanenes , and of which also he spake in the preface at the beginning of his book : that in him might be seen the truth of that which salomō saith , the lippes of a foole devoure himself : the beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishnes , and the latter end of his mouth is wicked madnes : & that thus also it might appeare , how far he is frō being of the israel of god , that follow peace and holynes , without which no man shall see the lord. heb. 12.14 . towching his postscript about t. c. the man himself saith he is falsely traduced by him , as he was likewise accused by some other here to magistrates for the same thing , who could not prove it against him , when the matter came to be examined . and see here still the bad dealing of this man , who publisheth his name in this manner to the world , onely vpon an hear-say , not knowing whether the thing were true or false , and then also when he heard withall that he had greatly bewayled his sinne , and had not afterward given him any iust or needfull cause so to do . for the casting of him out , it was thought meet and good , considering his former dealing & the present case , so to proceed : yet not without differēce of judgment in some of vs thereabout . but he was shortly after received in againe , being repentant for his sinne . now here let the reader observe , how this man which blameth others for not forgiving of penitent sinners , hath not ceased throughout his book to publish and object the sinnes of such against the whole church and the parties themselves : besides the manifold falsehoods and blasphemies into which also he is ●un . but his madnes is become manifest to men , and his judgement sleepeth not with god : who will remember and reward him according to his workes . nehem. 6.14 . 2 tim. 4.14 . a note of the particulars ( spoken of before , pag. 62. ) wherein we differ from the dutch and french churches of this city , & wherabout we have had dealing with such of their ministers as by the rest of their eldership were deputed therevnto . 1. that the estate of the dutch church of amst. is such , as being one , yet it meeteth in three severall places : whereby it commeth to passe that the whole church cannot come together in one : the ministers cannot together with the flock sanctify the lords day : the presence of the members of the church cannot certainly be knowen : and finally , no publick action , whether excommunication or any other , can rightly be performed . which is contrary to these scriptures , 1 cor. 12.27 . & 11.20 , 23. math. 18 , 17. with 1 cor. 5 , 4. act. 6.2 , 5. numb . 8.9 . act. 20.28 . 2. they baptize the seed of them who are no members of any visible church : of whom moreover they haue not care as of mēbers , neyther admit their parēts to the lords supper . gen. 17.7 , 9 , 10 , 11. 1 cor. 7.14 . exod. 12.48 . with 2 chron. 30.6 . &c. numb . 9.13 . hos. 2.2.4 . with rev. 17.1 . ezech. 16.59 . &c. 3. in the publick worship of god , they have devised & vse an other forme of prayer , besides that which christ our lord hath prescribed mat. 6. reading out of a book certaine prayers invented and imposed by man. exod. 20.4.5 . and 30.9 . with psal. 141.2 . and rev. 8.3 . lev. 10.1 . esa. 29.13 . with math. 15.9 . rom. 8.26 . eph. 4.8 . 1 pet. 2.5 . 4. that rule and commaundement of christ , 18.15.16.17 . they neither obserue nor suffer rightly to be observed among them . 5. they worship god in the idol-temples of antichrist . exod. 20.4 . with deut. 12.2.3 . 2 18.11.12 . &c. 6 the ministers have their set maintenance after an other maner then christ hath ordeined , 1 cor. 9.14 . and that also such , as by which any ministery at all , whether popish or other whatsoever , might be mainteyned . 7. their elders chaunge yearely , and do not continew in their office according to the doctrine of the apostles and practise of the primitive churches . rom. 12.4.5.6.7.8 . 1 cor. 12.11.12 . &c. act 20.17.28 . 1 5.1.2 . 3.4 . see also numb . 8.24 . &c. 8. they celebrate mariage in the church , as if it were a part of the ecclesiasticall administration , whereas it is in the nature of it meerly civill . ruth . 4. chap. heb. 13.4 . 1 cor. 7.2 . 9. they vse a new censure of suspensiō , which christ hath not appointed . math. 28.20 . gal. 3.15 . 2 tim. 3.16.17 . 10. they observe dayes and tymes , consecrating certyan dayes in the yeare , to the nativity , resurrection , ascension of christ , &c. exod. 20. commaundement , 2. & 4. rev. 1.10 . 1 cor. 10.1 . ● . act. 20.7 . col. 2.16.17 . esa . 66.23 . gal. 4.10.11 . 11. they receive vnrepentant excommunicates , to be members of their church : which by this meanes becommeth one body with such as be delivered vnto sathan . 1 cor. 5.5 . 1 tim. 1.20 . about this matter we had dealing with them divers tymes heretofore . and we desired that knowledg thereof might by themselves be givē to the whole body of their church , or that they would take order that it might be done by vs. but they refused both . whereabout we had afterward some further dealing with them . in which time , divers messages and answers passed between vs. which we had thought here to have inserted : but now think good for the present to forbeare them : wishing rather that they might be buried amōg themselves by amendement hereafter , then that we should be constreyned eyther by themselves or others ( as we are already too much provoked ) to publish them to the world , for the further manifestation and clearing of our cause and maner of dealing with them . the cautions ( spoken of before , pag. 34. & 68. ) concerning the question following . question . whether such as sometimes have fallen from the truth , may afterward by the church be taken into office . answer . we take it not to be meet , without these and the like cautious : viz. first that there be due consideration had both of the nature of the thing , and of the quality of the persons , and also of the estate of the church . for the nature of the thing , 1. whether it be from the trueth to the idolatry of the heathen , or to some false christian worship : and here further , whether to the papists , anabaptists , lutherans , or other protestants professing reformation in sundry things , & those of great moment &c. 2. whether at the first appearing & receiving of the truth , or when the adversaries haue ben soundly & throughly convinced . 3. whether in dispersion and absence from the church , or living and remayning with it . 4. whether drawen , circumvented , & overcome by others ( as aharon , and some of the galatians , exod. 32.1.23.35 . gal. 1.6 . ) or drawing , intising & seducing of others ( as they of whom we read ezech. 44.12 . deut. 13.5.6.12.13 . ) such as now also be they which publish writings against the trueth , the church , &c. 5. whether they did voluntarily yeeld of themselves , or fainted being broken with troubles and persecutions . 6. whether they joyned themselves as members , or were present onely at their worship . 7 , whether ( being ioyned as members ) they did partake onely , or did administer also and execute their worship themselves . 8. whether slipping aside for a tyme through infirmity , or falling away long & resisting the meanes offred for their recovery , or labouring ( what they could ) to chaunge or abolish the true religion & worship of god. 9. lastly , whether before or after the church hath discussed and agreed what to do in this matter . for the quality of the persons , 1. whether they were in office before or not . 2. vvhether they be fit for office , or not . els what blot should they beare in this behalf who for their sundry defects are altogether vnfit , & therefore never to be taken into office , though they never had fallen from the trueth ? as they of aharons seed , who had a blemish in their body , might never be priests , though they did neuer fall to idolatry . lev. 21.17 . &c. for the estate of the church , 1. vvhether it were but newly and weakly entred into the faith and way of christ , or had ben long and well established therein . 2. vvhether as yet it were vnsetled and tossed hither and thither , to and fro , or were setled and well together . 3. whether it haue great and present need of some to be taken into office . 4. vvhether it have others in all respects , as fit to be chosen . as paul when he refused iohn mark , had silas , whome he chose to take with him , act. 15.25.26.27.32.38.40 . secondly , that the church do well know or trie such as have so fallē , afore they do afterward entertayn them into office . as paul may be noted to haue done with mark , whom yet barnabas did sooner receive , as being his sisters sonne , well knowen vnto him before . col. 4.10 . & 2 tim. 4.11 . with act. 15.38.39 . finally , that none be contentious , but that all of vs duly considering the former cautions and the like , we take the fittest whom god in this estate of the church doth offer , endeavouring to keep the vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace , that we may with love and comfort proceed in that wherevnto we are come : to the prayse of god , and to the further building & vpholding of the whole church & of * all the members thereof in the trueth of the gospell of iesus christ. 1 cor. 11.16 . ephe. 4.2.3 . phil. 3.15.16 . gal. 6.16 . this for the present , so to be mynded & observed , as if others shall at any tyme shew vs better from the word of god , we be alway ready to receive it in the lord. an answer to the reasons alledged to prove the vse of the lords prayer as a prayer . objection . 1. an expresse commaundement neither contrary to nature , nor analogie of faith , and agreable also to the drift and tenour of the place , ought litterally to be vnderstood and obeyed . but this math. 6.9 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. and luk. 11.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , say , our father , &c. is such an expresse cōmaundement &c. ergo it is also so to be vnderstood and vsed . answer . 1. this reason was alledged before : where see what is answered vnto it . pag. 30. 2. the assumption or second part of the reason is but barely affirmed , not proved at all . 3. how is it agreable to the nature of prayer and analogy of faith , that one man or church at any time should so pray , as asking all things that ever any in the world haue needed or shall need vpon any occasion whatsoever ? or that we now should offer such prayer and worship vnto god , as we cannot have assurance by the scriptures , that ever the apostles or other christians approved of god did so vse at any time ? or to keep alwayes a set forme of words for our prayer to god ? 4. how is it agreable to the drift and tenour of the place , that christ did so commaund it to be vsed as he pretendeth ? 1. for then it should be sinne to pray at any time , and not to say it , seing christ hath thus given his commaundement concerning it , luk. 11.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . &c. when ye pray , say , our father &c. 2. and thus also we should be bound to say it twise over together at everie time we vse it : because mathew and luke in some words and clauses recorded it diversly : and who can say we ought to vse the words of the one more then of the other ? 3. but both * the cōmaundement it self , and the circumstances about it noted in the evangelists , shew it to be given for a rule of prayer ; and therefore so to vse it , is that which is agreable to the tenour and drift of the place : as we haue heretofore shewed in ‡ divers treatises yet vnanswered . 5. by literall vnderstanding of christs words in the same sermon , do the anabaptists gather , that it is vnlawfull for christiās to take an oth , to go to warre , to beare magistracy &c. pleading the expresse words and commaundement of christ. math. 5.34.39 . &c. with many other pretences which they have thereabout . shall we therefore admit of their errors , or vnderstand those scriptures , as they would have vs ? not to speak of other as expresse speaches , or any collections thereabout : as mat. 6.17 . ioh. 13.5.12.14.15 . objection . 2. 2. if christ had taught onely to pray to this effect , then had he taught nothing but that which iohns disciples & all the faithfull practised before : for the prayers of the saints , as of salomon , nehemiah , daniel , were to that effect before . answer . 1. what if all this be graunted ? what would follow therevpon ? doth not christ in the same sermō of his , teach the very same things that moses in effect had taught before ? but now by reason of the false gloses of the pharisees , he explaned them , according to their true meaning . math. 5.17 . &c. 2. in like maner there being great abuse about prayer , as is particularlie noted by mathew , christ sheweth them how to vse it aright . math. 6.5.6.7 . &c. 3. if he meane , that the prayers of the holy men in former tymes were of such things as here be cōprised , it is true , that they thē prayed to this effect : but if he meane that they prayed with like intendement and in like manner as christ now taught the apostles and christians hereafter to do , he is deceived . for in their prayers they intended and looked at christ to come , they prayed that god would send him according to his promise , that he might performe the things spoken concerning him , &c. but now christ directed all hereafter to pray in his name , as being come and exhibited according to the promises that went before concerning him . ioh. 14.13.14 . & 16.23.24 . 4. the purpose of christ in giving this forme of prayer , was not onely to teach to pray to this effect , but to give direction also concerning all other things that are needfull to be knowen and observed in the right vse of prayer . as in other books already published we have shewed in divers particulars . objection . 3. whatsoever scripture hath in every respect the forme of prayer , that is ●ot alone matter of doctrine , but hath bene vsed also as prayer . but this scripture math. 6.9 . hath in every respect the forme of prayer : as , our father , give vs , leade vs , and amen , annexed in the end : ergo . and in deed how can they tell , which were prayers and which not , if not by their forme of petition ? whereby they are distinguished from doctrines , and rules proposed in an other forme , as mat. 7.7 . & 21.22 . 1 ioh. 5.14 . answer . 1. the proposition or first part of the reason needeth proof : if he speak of the vse of the very words , as they are set downe . but if he speak onely of praying for such things to such end and in such maner as is recorded , then we graunt it : and he speaketh nothing against vs , but fighteth with his owne shadow . 2. for some instances herein , let these scriptures be considered , ier. 31.7 . hos. 14.3.4 . ioel. 2.17 . which haue in every respect the forme of prayer , and yet were given to be directions of the matter and maner of the prayers which then they should make , and not to prescribe thē the very words which they should vse . as likewise in this particular of mat. 6.9 — 13. compared with luk. 11.2.3 , 4. 3. for the assumption or second part of the reason , that it is propounded in forme of prayer , see the answer before : pag. 31. and let them now at length tell vs , if it were so to be vsed as they say , whether we should follow mathew or luke therein , and whether we should at the end thereof vse the conclusion , and say amen , or not : seing mathew hath it so , and luke not . 4. the very propounding of it in forme of petition conteyneth in it great and needfull doctrine for the right vse of prayer . of which also see before , pag , 31. 5 the scriptures and rules of prayer here mentioned by himself ( mat. 7.7 . and 21.22 . 1 ioh. 5.14 . ) shew that neither christ intended , nor the apostles vnderstood it so , that those very words ( as they are set downe ) should be our prayer vnto god. for which observe these clauses , aske , seek , knock : as a sonne asketh of h●● father bread , or fish &c. mat. 7.7 — 11. whatsoever ye aske , &c. mat. 21.22 . if we aske any thing according to his will &c. 1 ioh. 5.14 . thincketh he , when christ commended vnto vs the needfull , carefull , and fervent vse of prayer saying , aske , seek , knock &c. that his meaning was , get by rote and say over , our father which art in heaven , &c. or is the saying of these words , prayer to god , as when a child being hungry commeth to his father and asketh bread , or having bread asketh fish or other food according to his need ? or why did christ vse such a generall clause , whatsoever ye aske : and iohn , if we aske any thing according to his will &c. if they had meant we should for our prayer vse that forme spoken of , wherein they knew are conteyned all things that can possibly be asked according to the will of god ? or should we therefore vse these words onely for our prayers , and no other at all ? but of this question we have written other where already : which may suffice , till we be answered . objection . 4. 4. in a duty to be vsed of all , the holy ghost is playne : but if those very words are not to be vsed as prayer , no christian for 1500. year●s & more , did ever vnderstand our lords meaning . answer . 1 salomon answereth , relating the words of christ , that they are all plaine to him that will vnderstand , and streight to them that will find knowleledge . prov. 8.9 . 2. in the duties ●o be vsed of all , about the sacraments , &c. the holy ghost is plaine : yet have christians swarved from our lords meaning therabout , as long since as he speaketh of : yea even in the apostles times they began in divers things to go astray therefrom , as any that is acquainted with the scriptures may perceive . 3. if erroneous pleading frō former times , without scripture , were proof sufficient , how many and great errors might be pleaded for ? as the antichristians do , for a multitude of their heresies and abhominations , which i will not stand here to particulate . 4. see also what is answered before , when to like purpose he alledged tertullians testimonie , pag. 23. &c. exception . 1. but they say that the apostles never vsed those very words in prayer . i answer : 1. an expresse commaundement is warrant sufficient without example . answer . he taketh for graunted that which he should prove , namely , that there is an expresse commaundement so to vse it as he pretendeth . of which point we haue spoken before . and let the reader observe , how he cannot shew by any scripture at all , that the apostles vsed those words for their prayer at any time . neyther can he deny , but they vnderstood it aright , and prayed according to the true meaning thereof . exception . 2. 2. there is no example in the whole book of gen. of the observation of the sabaoth for 2369. yeares space after the institution of it . gen. 2. neither to come nearer , is there any example of baptising , in the name of the father , sonne , and holy ghost , yet is the commaundement of christ sufficient warrant so to do . compare math. 28.19 . with act. 10.48 . & 19.5 . answer . what a reason is this ? as if we thought nothing were observed of old , whereof there is not mention in the history ; or as if no difference were to be put in the vnderstanding of the scriptures , but that if one be vnderstood litterally , then must all other likewise . he might aswell have told vs , we read not in the scriptures that methuselah did ever eat any meat , and yet lived 969 yeares , the longest of any that are mentioned in the storie . and for the apostles and others at that time administring baptisme , how plaine is it in the scriptures cited by himself , that they baptised in the name of the lord , as they were appointed ? if he could shew but in generall termes , that the apostles at any time when they prayed , sayd over the lords prayer : though it be not written in particular that they said , our father which art in heaven &c. there were some proportion in his maner of reason , which now is not . besides , the apostles and evangelists themselves recording the institution and vse of the lords supper , observe not the same words alike , yet all of them agree in the same matter and substance ? mat. 26.26.27.28 . mark. 14.22.23.24 . luk. 22.19.20 . 1 cor. 11.24.25 . and why should we not think likewise of their administration of baptism● , that it was according to th● cōmaundement of christ , though the same particular words be not rehearsed ? or how can any make question of it , when it is recorded that they baptised ( not in their owne name , but ) in the name of the lord : act. 2 , 38.41 . & 10.48 . rom. 6 , 3. 1 cor. 1.13.15 . gal. 3.27 . with mat. 28.19 . and so by their example have taught vs how to vnderstand and vs● these things aright ? exception . 3. 3. it is the anabaptists reasoning against childrens baptisme , asking for an example , when otherwise there is sufficient warrant so to do : yet are their pretences as good or better then mr iohnsons in refusing obedience to our lords commaundement for want of an example . answer . a childish collection frō the anabaptists errour about children● baptisme . how often shall we speak it , that other sufficient warrant from the scriptures , is as good as a thousand examples ? and why will he needs shew himself to be like the anabaptists : who would bring in a worship of god , for which there cannot be shewed sufficient warrant eyther by precept , or by example , or sound collection from the scriptures ; and so by consequence in tyme deprive the church of that true worship of god which we are taught both by commaundement and by example and by vnanswerable reasons drawen out of the word of god ? wherein the very experience of former tymes so extreemly corrupted in this exercise of prayer , might and ought to teach vs to be more carefull . for administring the seale of gods covenant , and sacrament of i●itiation , & consequently of baptisme , vnto children being the seed of the faithfull , we have both precept , example , and vndeniable reasons out of the word of god : which i will not here stand to relate . if our reasons towching the vse of the forme of prayer spoken of , be so weak as he pretendeth , why did he not vndertake to answer them : but chuse rather to insist vpō the pretences which now he hath purposelie published concerning that argument ? and why will he never leave begging of that which he should prove , that i● 〈◊〉 our lords commaundement to say over the very words prescribed , mat. 6. ● luk 11. for our prayer vnto god ? exception . 4. 4. the prayers mencioned in the new testament , are such as 〈◊〉 powred forth vpon speciall occasion , as act. 4.24 . ioh. 17. answer . an absurd pretence : and such as wherein he is against himself , yeelding that the lords prayer is not to be vsed vpon speciall occasion : or els he speaketh nothing to the purpose . and if it teach vs not how to pray vpō speciall occasion , how is it a perfect directiō ? or if it do , & yet be not in such case to be vsed , how plain is it that christs meaning & the apostles vnderstanding of it was such as not to prescribe it for our prayer , but for our instruction and direction therein ? againe christ saith , when ye pray , say , our father &c. therefore also vpon speciall occasion , if that were his meaning , as he would perswade . not to speak how themselves commonly hold and give out that it is such as is fit to be vsed at all tymes and for all occasions . so well they agree together . but why doth he cite here , ioh. 17. wherein christs prayer a little before his death is mentioned ? is it to shew that though christ did not then vse it , praying vpon speciall occasion , yet at other times he did ? if this b● his intendement , who will believe him that christ who had no sinn , could aske forgivenes of sinne , as in that forme of prayer is prescribed ? if this be not his meaning , to what purpose is that scripture alledged , vnles it be to reason against himself , & to shew still his owne foolishnes ? exception . 5. 5 let them shew me an example where ever the apostles prayed before their sermons ; if they can . answer . 1. have they not read what is written of the apostles , act. 6.4 . how they said to the brethren at ierusalem , look ye out men whom we may appoint to this busines ( of the deacons office ) : and we will give our selves continually to prayer and to the ministration of the word ? nor how the apostle paul gave direction concerning publick prayer , when he wrote to the churches and to timothee about publik doctrine , whether it were in propheticall or ministeriall vse of the word of god. 1 cor. 11.4 . and 14. chap. 1 tim. 1. and 2. chap. or when paul taught timothee that the food of the body is to be sanctified vnto vs by prayer , should he not think likewise of the food of the soule ? 2. and what though the particular circūstance of time ( before , or after ) be not set down ? or that the apostles having to deale with severall sorts of persons & occasions , did diversly cary themselves according therevnto ? 3. or doth it not ly vpon the ministers in publik , to be aswell the mouth of the church vnto god in prayer , as to be the mouth of god to the church in doctrine ? or should we think that the apostles did not carefully performe the whole worke of the ministery committed vnto them ? 4. finally , let these men shew vs an example in the apostles or primitive churches , where ever they said their prayers over by tote ; or vsed a book of common prayer among them ; or read any prayers at all for their prayer to god ; or had archbishops , lordbishops , archdeacons , priests , parsons , vicars , &c. eyther for vse of prayer , or for any other service ministery or government of the churches of christ. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a04541-e100 gen. 25.33.34 . heb. 12.16 . whites discov . pag. 4. ignorance . * mr sedg . to mr pow. falsehood . mr ●● . violence . whites discov . pag. 20. whites discov . pag. 6. pro. 26.26 . prov. 18.17 . pro. 26.5 . prov. 26.4 . prov. 18.2 . micah . 7.8.9.10 . notes for div a04541-e1820 (a) wh. discovery . pag. 5· * act. 24.5 . & 28.22 . mat. 18.15 17.18.22 . luke 17.4 . 1 cor. 5.1.4.5.11.12.13 . esa. 16.4 . psal. 103.6 psal. 9.18 . * besides the ministery of the vvord . * since altered , as himself knoweth . b and this also with consent of the church then signified . c ansvv. to mr a. h. pag. 62. * to i.l. in his ovvn hearing . d ansvv. to mr h. ia. p. 17 4. * tremell . and iun. on exod. 2.23 1 cor. 1● . pro. 12.13 . * lib. de monogam . tertul. lib. de orat. * tertull. lib. de orat . a lib. de praescript . aduersus haeret . b lib. de virgin . veland . confess . with mr iun. letters pag. 54. * pag 23. mr r. ia. * whites disco . p. 7. in the margent . a.p. at northampton . ‡ whites discov . pag 26. contra marcion . lib. 4. c. 5. lib. de orat . ‡ yet resting with peace in their difference of iudgment therabout . * 1 cor. 6.16 . * mat. 19. † 1 cor. 6.9.11 . ‡ of this , i think my self haue had speach with this th. white heretofore howsoever now he write as if he had never heard it of any of vs. a true descript . of a visible church . * num. 12.3 . ps. 106.33 . deut. 5.32 1 tim. 5.21 . mat. 10.37 . † the prelate of lond. &c. gen. 29. & 30. & 31. & 34. gen. 34. & 35. & 37. & 38. chap. epist. to he corinhians . 2 cor. 11.13.14.15 . answ. to mr , h. i. p. 14. &c. pro. 11 , 9 , confess . with mr iun. letters . pag. 54. and that we might & would , if he did thus . w. simson . apologie . discovery . refutatiō . questions . answer to mr h. &c. 1 cor. 10.18 . act. 15. rom. 14. phil. 3.16 . a discourse of certaine troubles & excom . &c. confess . with mr iun. letters . pag. 54. nehem. 6.8 . prov. 24.28 . ‡ in these countreyes , being from the church vpon occasion . † but afterward i did speak more to him here about , as he may remēber . ‡ smyrn● philadelphia &c. † corinth . galat. pergamu● &c. and these were in deed the causes that made vs think more and otherwise of this matter , thē we had done . which we also shewed in the church . ‡ 2 tim. 1.5 . and 3.14.15 . and 1 tim. 4.6.12 . with act. 16. & 17. & 18. & 19. & 20. chap. † ephe. 4.11 . rom. 12.7 . a●t . 5.29 . prov. 26.2 psal. 109.17.18 . numb . 16. gen. 9.29.27 . † whites discov . p. 24. prov. 11.21 . eccles. 10.12.13 . notes for div a04541-e14090 * aswell those that have fallen as the rest . notes for div a04541-e14510 * mat. 6.9 . ‡ apologie . discovery . questions . answ : to mr h. &c. see also iob 22.17 . esa. 44.17 . ier. 2.27 . hab. 2.19 . 1 cor. 11.20 . &c. gen. 5. 2 tim. 4.4.5 . a common apologie of the church of england against the vniust challenges of the ouer-iust sect, commonly called brownists. wherein the grounds and defences, of the separation are largely discussed: occasioned, by a late pamphlet published vnder the name, of an answer to a censorious epistle, which the reader shall finde in the margent. by i.h. hall, joseph, 1574-1656. 1610 approx. 299 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 80 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a02522 stc 12649 estc s103653 99839402 99839402 3818 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a02522) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 3818) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1103:18) a common apologie of the church of england against the vniust challenges of the ouer-iust sect, commonly called brownists. wherein the grounds and defences, of the separation are largely discussed: occasioned, by a late pamphlet published vnder the name, of an answer to a censorious epistle, which the reader shall finde in the margent. by i.h. hall, joseph, 1574-1656. robinson, john, 1575?-1625. answer to a censorious epistle. [6], 145, [5] p. printed [by william stansby] for samuel macham, and are to be sold at his shop in pauls church-yard, at the signe of the bull-head, london : 1610. dedication signed: ios. hall. a reprinting of and reply to: "an answer to a censorious epistle" by john robinson, the separate printing of which has not survived. printer's name from stc. with two final contents leaves. running title reads: an apologie against brownists. a variant of the 1610 edition with "for eleazer edgar" in the imprint. reproduction of the original in the yale university. library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the 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utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng robinson, john, 1575?-1625. -answer to a censorious epistle. church of england -controversial literature. brownists -early works to 1800. 2004-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-06 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2004-06 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a common apologie of the chvrch of england : against the vniust challenges of the ouer-iust sect , commonly called brownists . wherein the grounds and defences , of the separation are largely discussed : occasioned , by a late pamphlet published vnder the name , of an answer to a censorious epistle , which the reader shall finde in the margent . by i. h. london printed for samuel macham , and are to be sold at his shop in pauls church-yard , at the signe of the bull-head . 1610. to ovr gratiovs and blessed mother , the church of england . the meanest of her children dedicates this her apology , and wisheth all peace and happines . no lesse then a yeare and a halfe is past ( reuerend , deare , and holy mother ) since i wrote a louing monitory letter to two of thine vnworthy sons ; which ( i heard ) were fled from thee in person , in affection , and somewhat in opinion : supposing them yet thine in the maine substance , though in some circumstances their owne . since which , one of them hath wash't of thy font-water as vnclean , and hath written desperately both against thee , and his owne fellowes : from the other , i receiued ( not two moneths since ) a stomakful pamphlet ; besides the priuate iniuries to the monitor , casting vpon thine honourable name blasphemos imputations of apostasie , antichristianisme , whoordome , rebellion : mine owne wronges i could haue contemned in silence , but , for sions sake , i cannot hold my peace : if i remember not thee , o ierusalem , let my tongue cleaue to the roofe of my mouth . it were a shame , and sinne for me , that myzeale should be lesse hote for thine innocency , then theirs to thy false disgrace . how haue i hastened therefore to let the world see thy sincere truth , and their peruerse slanders . vnto thy sacred name then ( whereto i haue in all piety deuoted my selfe ) i humbly present this my speedy and dutifull labour : whereby i hope thy weak sonnes may be confirmed , the strong encouraged , the rebellious shamed : and if any shall still obstinately accurse thee , i referre their reuenge vnto thy glorious head , who hath espoused thee to himselfe , in trueth and righteousnesse : let him whose thou art , right thee : in the meane time , we thy true sonnes , shall not onely defend , but magnifie thee : thou maiest be blacke , but thou art comely : the daughters haue seene thee , and counted thee blessed ; euen the queene , and the concubines , and they haue praised thee : thou art thy welbelouedst , and his desire is towards thee : so let it be , and so let thine be towards him for euer ; and mine towards you both , who am the least of all thy little ones , ios . hall . a common apologie against the brownists . section . i. the entrance into the worke . if truth and peace ( zacharyes two companions ) had met in our loue , this controuersie had neuer beene ; the seuering of these two hath caused this separation ; for while some vnquiet mindes haue sought trueth without peace , they haue at once lost truth , peace , loue , vs and themselues . god knowes how vnwillingly i put my hand to this vnkind quarrell : nothng so much abates the courage of a christian , as to call his brother aduersary : we must doe it ; woe to the men by whom this offence commeth : yet by how much the insultation of a brotherly enemy is more intollerable , and the griefe of our blessed mother greater , for the wrong of her owne ; so much more cause i see to breake this silence : if they will haue the last words , they may not haue all . for our carriage to them : they say , when fire the god of the chaldees had deuoured all the other wooden deities , that canopis set vpon him a caldron full of water , whose bottome was deuised with holes stop't with waxe , which no sooner felt the flame , but gaue way to the quenching of that furious idoll . if the fire of inordinate zeale , conceite , contention haue consumed all other parts in the separation , and cast forth ( more then nebuchadnezers furnace ) from their amsterdam hither ; it were well if the waters of our moderation and reason could vanquish , yea abate it : this litle hin of mine shall be spent that way : wee may trie and wish , but not hope it : the spirits of these men are too-well knowne , to admit any expectation of yeeldance : since yet , both for preuention and necessary defence this taske must be vndertaken , i craue nothing of my reader but patience and iustice : of god , victory to the truth : as for fauour , i wish no more then an enemy would giue against himselfe : with this confidence i enter into these lifts , and turne my penne to an aduersary , god knowes , whether more proud or weake . section . ii. the answerers preamble . it is a hard thing euen for those which would seem sober minded men in cases of controuersie , to vse soberly the frownes and disaduantages of causes and times : whereby whiles men are dei●cted and troden downe , they vse to behold their opposites mounted on high , too repiningly , and not without desperate enuie : & so are oftentimes moued , to shoote vp at them as from below , the bitter arrowes of spightfull and splenish discourses , thinking any hatefull opposition sufficiently charitable , to oppugne those aduersaries , which haue them ( as they feele ) at so great an aduantage : vpon this impotent malitiousnesse , it commeth to passe that this aunswerer vndertaketh thus seuerely and peremptorily , to censure that charitable censure of ignorance , which ( as shall appeare in the sequell ) he either simply , or willingly vnderstood not : and to brand a deare church of christ with apostacy , rebellion , antichristianisme : what can bee more easie then to returne accusations ? * your preamble ( with a graue bitternes ) charges me with 1. presumption vpon aduantages , 2. weake and weightlesse discourse , 3. ignorance of the cause censured : it had beene madnesse in me to write , if i had not presumed vpon aduantages , but of the cause , of the truth , not of the times : though ( blessed bee god ) the times fauour the truth , and vs : if you scorn them and their fauours , complaine not to be an vnderling : thinke that the times are wiser , then to bestow their fauours vpon willfull aduersaries ; but in spight of times , you are not more vnder vs in estate , then in conceipt aboue vs : so wee say the sunne is vnder a cloud , we know it is aboue it . * would god ouerlinesse and contempt were not yours , euen to them which are mounted highest vpon best desert ; and now you that haue not learned sobrietie in iust disaduantages , taxe vs , not to vse soberly the aduantages of time : there was no gall in my penne , no insultation , i wrote to you as brethren , and wish't you companions : there was more danger of flattery in my stile , then bitternesse : wherein vsed i not my aduantages soberly ? not in that i said too much , but not enough ; not in that i was too sharpe , but not weighty enough ; my opposition was not too vehement , but too sleight and slender : so , strong champions blame their aduersary , for striking too easily : you might haue forborne this fault , it was my fauour that i did not my worst : you are worthy of more weight , that complaine of ease . the discourse that i rol'd downe vpon you , was weake and weightlesse ; you shall well finde this was my lenitie , not my impotence . the fault hereof is partly in your expectation , not in my letter : i meant but a short epistle , you look't belike for a volume , or nothing ; i meant onely a generall monition ; you look't for a solide prosecution of particulars : it is not for you to giue taskes to others pennes . by what lawe must wee write , nothing but large scholasticall discourses ? such tomes as yours : may we not touch your sore vnlesse wee will launce , and search it ? i was not enough your enemie ; forgiue me this errour , and you shall smart more : but not onely my omissions were of ignorance , but my censures , though seuere and solemne : an easie imputation from so great a controuler : i pardon you , and take this as the common lot of enemies . i neuer yet could see any scribler so vnlearned , as that he durst not charge his opposite with ignorance ; if dr. whitaker , m. perkins , m. gyfford , and that oracle of our present times , dr. andrewes , went away content with this liuerie from yours ; how can i repine ? if i haue censured what cause i knew not , let me bee censured for more then ignorance , impudencie : but if you know not what i censured ( let all my trust lie on this issue ) take both ignorance , boldnesse , and malice to your selfe : is your cause so mysticall ▪ that you can feare any mans ignorance ? what cobler or spinster hath not heard of the maine holds of brownisme ? am i only a stranger in hierusalem ? if i know not all your opinions , pardon me : your owne haue not receiued this illumination ; i speake boldly , not your selfe ; euery day brings new conceites , and not one day teaches , but corrects another , you must be more constant to your selues , ere you can vpbraide ignorance or auoide it : but whether i knew your prime fancies , appeares sufficiently by a particular discourse , which aboue a yeare since was in the hands of some of your clients , and i wonder if not in yours : shortly ; am i ignorant ? if i were obstinate too , you might hope ( with the next gale ) for me , your more equall aduersarie , at amsterdam . as i am ; my want of care and skil , shal ( i hope ) loose nothing of the trueth by you , nor suffer any of your foule aspersions vpon the face of gods church and ours . but whiles we striue ; who shall be our iudge ? the christian readers : who are those ? presume not , yee more zealous and forward countrey men , that you are admitted to this bench : so farre are wee meere english , from being allowed iudges of them ; that they haue already iudged vs to be no * christians : we are goates and swine , no sheepe of god : since then none but your parlour in the west , and amsterdam , must bee our iudges , who ( i beseech you ) shall be our aduersaries ? god be iudge betwixt you and vs , and correct this your vnchristian vncharitablenesse . section . iii ▪ the parties written to , and their crime . i wrote not to you alone : what is become of your partner , yea , your guide ? woe is me , he hath renounced our christendome with our church : and hath wash't of his former water , with new : and now condemnes you all , for not separating further , no lesse then we condemne you for separating so far . as if you could not be enough out of babylon , vnlesse you be out of your selues . alas miserable countrimen , whither runne you ? religion hath but his height , beyond which is errour and madnesse : hee telles you true , your station is vnsafe , either you must forward to him , or backe to vs. * i obiected separation to you : yet not so extreame as your answere bewrayes : a late separation , not the first ; my charity hoped you lesse ill , then you will needes deserue : you graunt it odious , because it casts imputation of euil vpon the forsaken : of euill ? yea of the worst , an estate incurable and desperate . he is an ill phisitian that will leaue his patient vpon euery distemper , his departure argues the disease helpelesse ; were wee but faulty , as your landlord churches , your owne rules would not abide your flight : hence the church of england iustly matches separatists with the vilest persons : god himselfe doth so : who are more vile then patrons of evill ? yet no greater woe , is to them that speake good of euill , then those that speake euill of good : so , wise generalls punish mutinous persons , worse then robbers or adulterers : so corah and his companie ( a storie cunningly turned vpon vs by your martyr ) for their opposition to moses were more fearefully plagued then the idolatrous israelites : these sinnes are more directly against common societie , the other more personall : and if both haue like iniquitie : yet the former haue both more offence and more danger : and if not so , yet who cannot rather brooke a lewd● seruant , then an vnduetifull sonne , though pretending faire colours for his disobedience ? at least , you thinke the church of england thinkes her selfe gods church , as wel as your saints of amsterdam : you that so accurse apostacie in others , could yee expect shee should brooke it in you ? but your reasons are iust and well grounded : euery way of a man is right in his owne eyes : said wee not well , that thou art a samaritane , and hast a diuell , say the iewes ? what schisme euer did not thinke well of it selfe ? for vs : wee call heauen and earth to record , your cause hath no more iustice then your selues haue charitie . section . iiii. the kinds of separation , and which is iust . yet there is a commendable and happie separation , from the world , from the prince , and men of the world , and whatsoeuer is contrarie to god : who doubts it ? there were no heauen for vs without this , no church ; which hath her name giuen by her father and husband of calling out from other . out of the egypt of the world dooth god call his sonnes : but this separation is into the visible church from the world , not ( as yours ) out of the church , because of some particular mixtures with the world : or ( if you had rather take it of profession ) out of the world of pagans and infidels , into the visible church , not out of the world of true ( though ●aultie ) christians into a purer church . that i may here at once for all giue light to this point of separation : we finde in scripture a separation either to good , or from euill : to good , so the leuites were separated from among the children of israel to beare the arke , and to minister : so the first borne , first fruites , and cities of refuge : so paul was ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) separated , which some would haue allude to his pharisaisme , but hath plaine reference to gods owne words ( act. 13. 2. ) separate me barnabas and saul : though this is rather a destination to some worthy purpose , then a properly called separation . from euill , whither sinne or sinners : from sinne , so euery soule must eschew euill , whether of doctrine or manners , and disclaime all fellowship with the vnfruitfull workes of darknesse , whither in himselfe or others . so s. paul charges vs to holde that which is good , and abstaine from all appearance of euill : so ieremie is charged to separate the pretious ( doctrine or practise ) from the vile . from sinners , not onely practised by god himselfe ( to omit his eternall and secret decree whereby the elect are separated from the reprobate ) both in his gratious vocation , sequestring them from nature and sinne , as also in his execution of iudgment , whether particular , as of the israelites from the tabernacles of corah , or vniuersall , and finall , of the sheepe from the goates ; but also inioyned from god to men , in respect either of our affection , or of our yoake , and familiar society , whereof saint paul : be not vnequally yoaked with infidels , come out from among them , and seperate your selues . in all this we agree : in the latitude of this last onely we differ : i finde you call for a double separation , a first separation in the gathering of the church : a second , in the managing of it : the first at our entrance into the church , the second in our continuance : the first of the church , from pagans & worldlings , by an initiatory profession : the second of leud men from the church by iust censures : you speake confusedly of your own separation , one while of both , another while of either single . for the first , either confesse it done by our baptisme , or else you shall be forced to hold we must rebaptise : but of this constitu●ine separation anone . for the second , of sinners , whether in iudgement or life , some are more grosse , haynous , incorrigible : others lesse notorious , and more tractable : those other must be separated by iust censures : not these : which censures if they be neglected , the church is foule and ( in your pastors word ) faultie , and therefore calles for our teares , not for our flight . now of churches faulty and corrupted , some race the foundation , others , on the true foundation build timber , hay , stubble : frō those we must separate , from these we may not . peters is eternall , whither shall we goe from thee , thou hast the wordes of eternall life : where these wordes are found , wo be to vs if we be not found . amongst many good separations then , yours cannot be separated from euill , for that we should so farre separate from the euill , that therefore wee should separate from gods children in the communion of the holy thinges of god , that for some ( after your worst done ) not fundamentall corruptions , wee should separate from that church , in whose wombe we were conceiued , and from betwixt whose knees wee fell to god : in a word ( as one of yours once said ) to separate not only from visible euill , but from visible good , as all antichristian : who but yours can thinke lesse then absurd and impious ? grant we should be cleane separated from the world , yet if we be not , must you be separated from vs ? doe but stay till god haue separated vs from himselfe : will the wise husbandman cast away his corne-heape for the chaffe and dust ? shall the fisher cast away a good draught because his drag-net hath weedes ? doth god separate from the faithfull soule , because it hath some corruptions , her inmates , though not her commaunders ? certainely , if you could throughly separate the world from you , you would neuer thus separate your selues from vs : beginne at home , separate all selfe-loue , and selfe-will , and vncharitablenesse from your heart , and you cannot but ioyne with that church , from which you haue separated : your doctor would perswade vs you separate from nothing but our corruptions : you are honester , and graunt it from our church : it were happie for you , if he lied not : who in the next page confutes himselfe , shewing that you separate from vs , as christ from the samaritans , namely from the church , not the corruptions only ; and not as hee did from the iewes , namely from their corruptions , not from their church : his memory saues our labour , and marres his discourse . section . v. the antiquity and examples of separation . yet if not equity , it were well you could pleade age : this your separation in the nature and causes of it ( you say ) is no lesse auncient then the first institution of enmity betwixt the two seedes , you might haue gone a little higher , and haue said , then our first parents running from god in the garden , or their separation from god by their sinne : but wee take your time , and easily beleeue that this your late separation was founded vpon that auncient enmity of the seede of the serpent , with the womans . that subtile diuell when he saw the church breath from the persecutions of tyrants , vexed her no lesse with her owne diuisions : seeking that by fraude , which by violence he could not effect . hence all the fearefull schismes of the church , whereof yours is part . this enm●ty hath not onely beene successiuely contiuued , but also too visibly manifested by the actuall ( but wilfull ) separation of heretickes and sectaries from the chuch in all ages : but i mistake you , yours is as auncient as the gospel : what ? that euangelium aeternum of the friers ? whose name they accursedly borrowed from reuel . 14. 6. or that euangelium regni of the familists ? or that euangelium aliud , whereof saint paul taxeth his galatians ? none of all these , you say ; but as that gospell of peace , of truth , of glory ; so auncient , and neuer knowne till bolton , barrow , and browne ? could it escape all the holy prophets , apostles , doctors of the old , middle , and later world , and light onely vpon these your three patriarchs ? perhaps nouatus or donatus ( those saints ) with their schooles had some little glimpse of it ; but this perfection of knowledge is but late and new : so , many rich mines haue lien long vnknown , and great parts of the world haue been discouered by late venturers . if this course haue come late to your knowledge and obedience , not so to others : for loe , it was practised successiuely in the constitution and collection of all t●ue churches , through al times , before the law , vnder the law , after it : wee haue acknowledged many separations : but as soone shall you finde the time past in the present , as your late separation , in the auncient and approued you quote scriptures , though ( to your praise ) more dainty indeed then your fellowes . who cannot doe so ? who hath not ? euen sathan himselfe cytes the word against him which was the word of his father . let vs not number , but weigh your texts : the rather , for that i finde these as your master-proofes , set as challengers in euery of your defences : in gen. 4. 13. caine a bloody fratricide is excommunicated : in gen. 6. 1. 2. the sonnes of god married the daughters of men . in gen. 7. 1. & 7. noah is approued as righteous , and enters the arke : in 1. pet. 3. 20 , 21. the rest in noahs time were disobedient , and perished : what of all this ? alas , what mockage is this of the reader , and scriptures : surely , you euen ioyne scriptures , as you separate your selues : this is right as your pastor , to proue all members of the visible church , elect and pretious stones , cytes 1. k. 7. 9. where is speech only of salomons house in the forest of lebanon , his porch for his throne , his hall , his pallace for pharachs daughter , and when hee comes to describe the office of his imaginary doctor thwacks fourteene scriptures into the margent , whereof not any one hath any iust colour of inference to his purpose : and in his discourse of the power of the church ( that hee might seeme to honour his margent with shew of textes ) hath repeated sixe places twise ouer in the space of sixe lines . for these of yovrs : you might obiect the first to the cainites not to vs : cain was cast out worthily . doe wee either denie , or vtterly forbeare this censure ? take heed you follow him not in your voluntary exile to the land of nod. the second you might obiect to those mungrell christians that match with turkes and pagans . there are sonnes of god , that is , members of the visible church , and daughters of men , which are without the bounds , meere infidels ; it is sinne for those sonnes to yoake themselues with those daughters . what is this to vs ? noah was righteous , the multitude disobedient : who denies it ? yet noah separated not from that corrupted church till the flood separated him from the earth , but continued an auncient preacher of righteousnesse , euen to that peruerse and rebellious generation . but it sufficeth you that caine and the giants were separated from the rest : we yeelde it : what will follow hence saue onely that notorious malefactors must be cast out , and professed heathen not let into the chruch ? vve hold , and wish no lesse : your places euince no more . these , before the law : in leuit. 20. 24. 26. god chose out israel from other people : this was gods act , not theirs : a sequestring of his israelites from the gentiles , not of israel from it selfe : yours is your owne , and from men , in all maine points , of your owne profession : but therefore israel must be holy : if any man denie holinesse to be required of euery christian , let him feele your maranatha . in nehem. 9. 2. the israelites separated themselues from the strangers , which were infidels : whether in their marriage , or deuotion : neither gods seruice , nor an israelites bedde was for heathens . this was not the constituting of a new church , but reforming of the olde : if therefore you can parallell vs with pagans , and your selues will bee iewes , this place fittes you . lastly , what if there be an hatred betwixt the world & christs true disciples , ioh. 17. 14. 16 ? what if peter charged his auditors to saue themselues from the errours and practise of that froward generation , whose handes were yet freshly imbrued with the blood of christ , act. 2. 40. ? what if the same which peter taught , paul practised , in separating his followers from hearing some obstinate and blasphemous iewes , act. 19. 9 ? vvhat if the church of corinth , were saints by calling , 1. cor. 1. 2 ? and therfore must be separated from the yoake of infidels , 2. cor. 6. 17 ? are these your patternes ? are these fit matches for your brethren , baptized in the same water and name , professing euery point of the same true faith , vsing ( for substance ) the same worshippe with you ? hee that saith he is in the light , and hateth his brother is in darkenesse , 1. ioh. 2. 9. section . vi. what separation is to be made by churches in their planting , or restauration . bvt all these examples perhappes are not so much to warrant what you haue done , as to condemne the church of england for what shee hath not done : for such a separation she neither hath made nor doth make , but standes actually one with all that part of the world within the kingdome without separation . loe here the maine ground of this schisme , which your proto-martyr barrow hammers vpon in euery page ; an ill constitution : thus he comments vpon your wordes : for where such prophane confuse multitudes without any exception , separation , or choice were all of them from publique idolatrie , at one instant receiued or rather compel'd to be members of the church , in some parish or other , where they inhabited , without any due calling to the faith by the preaching of the gospell going before , or orderly ioyning together in the faith , there being no voluntarie or particular confession of their owne faith and dueties made , or required of any , and lastly no holy walking in the faith amongst them : who can say that these churches consisting of this people were euer rightly gathered or built , according to the rule of christs testament . in his words and yours i finde both a mis-collection , and a wronge charge . for the former : the want of noting one poore distinction breedes all this confusion of doctrine , and separation of men : for there is one case of a new church to be called from heathenisme to christianity , another of a former church to be reformed from errours , to more sincere christianity ; in the first of these is required indeede a solemne initiation by baptisme , and before that , a voluntarie and particular confession of faith , and therefore a cleare separation , and exception of the christian , from the infidell : in the latter neither is new baptisme lawfull ( though some of you belike of olde were in hand with a rebaptization : which not then speeding , succeedeth now to your shame ) nor a new voluntary and particular confession of faith besides that in baptisme ( though very commendable ) will euer be prooued simply necessary to the being of a church ; so long as the erring parties doe actually renounce their doctrines , and in open profession imbrace the truth ; and ( as generally in the publique confession ) so particularly vpon good occasion giue iust testimonies of their repentance : this is our case , we did not make a new church , but mended an old : your clifton is driuen to this hold by necessity of argument ; otherwise he sees there is no auoiding of anabaptisme : mended , saith your doctor , and yet admitted the miscelline rabble of the prophane ? say now that such separation were not made : let some few be holy , and the more part prophane : shall the lewdnesse of some disanul gods couenant with others ? this is your mercy ; gods is more : who still held israel for his , when but fewe held his pure seruice : let that diuine psalmist teach you how full the tents of israel were of mutinous rebels in the desert ; yet the piller by day & night forsooke them not ; and moses was so farre from reiecting them ; that he would not indure god should reiect them to his owne aduantage : looke into the blacke censures , and bitter complaints of all the prophets , & wonder that they separated not : looke into the increased masse of corruptions in that declined church : whereof the blessed eyes of our sauiour were witnesses , and maruell at his silent and sociable incuriousnesse : yea his charge of not separating ; yee knowe not of what spirite you are : nowe you flye to constitution , as if notorious euils were more to tollerable in the continuance , then in the collection of assembles : sar di had but a few names that had not defiled their garments ; god praises these , biddes them not separate from the rest ; thyatir● suffers a false prophetesse ? the rest that haue not this learning , yet are bidden but to hold their owne ; not to separate from the angell , which hath not separated iezebel from the church . section . vii . what separation the church of england hath made . your charge is no lesse iniurious ; that the church of england hath made no separation : concerning which , you haue learned of your martyr , and ouerseers so to speake , as if before her late disclamation of popery , in queene elizabeths time , she had not beene . her monuments could haue taught you better , and haue ledde you to her auncient pedigree not much below the apostolike daies , and in many discents haue shew'd you not a few worthy witnesses and patrons of truth ; all which with their holy and constant of-spring it might haue pleased you to haue separated from this imputation of not separating : will you know therefore how the church of england hath separated ? in her first conuersion she separated her selfe from pagans ; in her continuance she separated her selfe from grosse heretiques , and sealed her separation with blood : in her reformation she separated her selfe from wilfull papists by her publique profession of truth , and proclaimed hatred of errour ; and she daily doth separate the notoriously euil by suspensions by excommunications , though not so many as yours : besides the particular separations of many from the acknowledged corruptions , in iudgement , profession , practise . all these will be auowed in spight of all contradiction : with what forehead then can you say ; the whole church of england hath not at all separated ? after all your shifts and idle tales of constitution , you haue separated from this church against the lord , not with the lord , from it : if there be christ with vs , if the spirit of god in vs , if assemblies , if calling by the word : whatsoeuer is , or is not else in the constitution , there is whatsoeuer is required to the essence of a church , no corruption eyther in gathering or continuance can destroy the truth of being , but the grace of being well : if christ haue taken away his word and spirit , you haue iustly subduced ▪ els you haue gone from him in vs. and when you haue al done , the separatists idol , visible constitution , will proue but an appendance of an externall forme , no part of the essence of a true church : and therefore your separation no lesse vain then the ground , then the authours . lastly , if our bounty should ( which it cannot ) grant , that our collection was at first deepely faulty : cannot the ra●ihabition ( as the lawyers speake ) bee drawne backe ? in contracts ( your owne similitude ) a following consent iustifies an act done before consent , and why not in the contract betwixt god , and his visible church ? loe , he hath confirm'd it by his gratious benedictions , and as much as may bee in silence , giuen vs abundant proofes of his acceptation : that after-act , which makes your baptisme lawfull , why can it not make our church ? section . viii . constitution of a church . bbut for as much as constitution is the very state of brownisme , let vs ( i beseech you ) inquire a little into the complexion of your constitution : whether physicke , or lawe , or architecture haue lent you it : sure i am , it is in this vse , apocryphall : neuer man vsed it thus scrupulously till your times : though , what neede you the helpe of fathers or schooles , new words must expresse new paradoxes . it is no treason to coyne tearmes : what then is constitution ? your doctor can best tell vs : as the constitution of a common-wealth , or of a city is a gathering or vniting of people together into a ciuill policy : so ( saith he ) the constitution of the common-wealth of israel , and of the city of god , the new ierusalem , is a gathering and vniting of people into a diuine politie : the forme of which polity , is order : which order is requisite in all actions , and administrations of the church , as the apostle sheweth , and specially in the constitution thereof : so that next vnto faith in god , it is to be esteemed most necessary for all holy societies . hence paul reioyced in the colossians order and faith : to this constitution therefore , belong a people as the matter , secondly , a calling or gathering together as the form , wherof the church consisteth . the constitution of the church of england is false in both : vvhy so ? ha●● we not a people ? are not those people called together ? to preuent this , you say our constitution is false , not none : vvhy false ? because those people haue neither faith , nor order . for faith first : vvho are you , that dare thus boldy breake into the closets of god , the hearts of men ? and condemne them to want that , which cannot be seene by any but diuine eies ? how dare you intrude thus into the throne of your maker ? consider , and conferre seriously : vvhat faith is it , that is thus necessarily required to each member in this constitution ? your owne doctor shall define it : faith required to the receiuing in of members , is the knowledge of the doctrine of saluation by christ 1. cor. 12. 9. gal. 3. 2. now i beseech you in the feare of god , lay by a while all vnchristian preiudice , and peremptory verdicts of those soules , which cost christ as much blood as your owne : and tell mee ingenuously , whether you dare say , that not onely your christian brethren with whom you lately conuersed , but euen your forefathers , which liued vnder queene elizabeths ? first confused reformation , knew not the doctrine of saluation by christ : if you say they did not , your 〈◊〉 iudgement shal be punished fearefully , by him whose office you vsurpe . as you looke to answere before him that would not breake the bruised reede ; nor quench the smoaking flaxe , presume not thus aboue men and angels : if they did , then had they sufficient clayme both to true constitution and church : but this faith must be testified by obedience , so it was : if you thinke not so , yours is not testified by loue : both were weake , both were true : weakenes in any grace or worke , takes not away truth : their sinnes of ignorance could no more 〈◊〉 gods couenant with them , them multiplicity of wiues with the patriarches . section . ix . secondly ▪ order . vvhat wanted they then ? nothing but order ; and not all order , but yours : order , a thing requisite and excellent , but let the world indge whether essentiall : consider now , i beseech you in the bowels of christ iesus , whither this be a matter for which heauen and earth should be mixed : whether for want of your order , all the world must be put out of all order , and the church out of life and being : nothing ( say we ) can be more disorderly , then the confusion of your democracy , or popular state ( if not anarchy● ) where all ( in a sort ) ordaine and excommunicate ; we condemne you not for no true members of the church : what can be more order 〈◊〉 ( by your owne confusions ) then the 〈◊〉 ▪ church at amsterdam , which yet you graunt but faulty , if there be disproportion and dislocation of some parts , is it no true humane bodie ? will you rise from the feast , vnlesse the dishes be set on in your owne fashion ? is it no city , if there be mud-walles halfe-broken , low cottages vnequally built , no state house ? but your order hath more essence , then you can expresse ; and is the same which politicians in their trade call ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) an incorporating into one common ciuill body ; by a voluntary vnion , and that vnder a lawfull gouernment : our church wants both : wherein there is both constraint , and false office . take your owne resemblance and your owne asking : say that some tyrant ( as basilius of russia ) shall forceably compell a certaine number of subiects into mosco , and shall hold them in , by an awfull garison , forcing them to new lawes and magistrates , perhappes hard and bloody : they yeeld , and making the best of all , liue together in a cheerefull communion , with due commerce , louing conuersation , submissiue execution of the inioyned lawes : in such case , whether is mosco a true city , or not ? since your doctor cytes aristotle ; let it not irke him to learne of that philosopher , who can teach him , that when clisthenes had driuen out the tyrants from athens , and set vp a new gouernement , and receiued many strangers , and bondmen into the tribes , it was doubted , not which of them were citizens , but whither they were made citizens vniustly . if you should finde a company of true christians in vtmost india , would you stand vpon tearmes , and inquire how they became so ? vvhiles they haue what is necessary for that heauenly profession ; what need your curiosity trouble it selfe with the meanes ? section . x. constraint requisite . you see then what an idle plea constraint is in the constitution of a city , the ground of all your exception : but it is otherwise in gods citie , the church ; why then doth his doctor shippe parallell these two ? and why may not euen constraint it selfe haue place in the lawfull constitution or reformation of a church ? did not manisses after his comming home to god , charge and commaund 〈◊〉 to serue the lord god of israel ? did not worthy iosiah when he had made a couenant before the lord , cause all that were found in ierusalem , and beniamin to stand to it , and compelled all that were found in israel , to serue the lord their god ? what haue queene elizabeth , or king iames done more ? or what other ? did not asa vpon obeds prophesie , gather both iudae and beniamin , and al the strangers from ephraim , manasses , and simeon , and enact with them , that whosoeuer would not seeke the lord god should be slaine ? what meanes this perue●snesse ? you that teach we may not stay princes leasure to reforme , will you not allow princes to vrge others to reforme ? what crime is this , that men were not suffered to be open idolaters , that they were forced to yeeld submission to gods ordinances ? euen your owne teach that magistrates may compell infidelles to heare the doctrine of the church ; and papists , you say elsewhere ( though too roughly ) are infidells : but you say , not to be members of the church : gods people are of the willing sort : true , neither did they compell them to this : they were before entred into the visible church by true baptisme , though miserably corrupted . they were not now initiated , but purged : your 〈◊〉 doctor 〈◊〉 vs from bernard that faith is to be 〈…〉 , to bee compelled yet let him 〈◊〉 that the guests must bee compelled to come in , though not to eat when they are come . compelled , not by perswasions ; for these were the first inuitation● , therfore by further meanes ; though this conceit hath no place with vs ; where men were vrged not to receiue a new faith , but to performe the old ; to abandon that wicked idolatry which had defiled them ; and to entertaine but that truth , which the very power of their baptisme challenge that their hand ▪ but this was the old song of the donatists ; far bee it from our conscience to compell any man to the faith . if god did not draw vs , and by asweat violence bend our wils to his , when should we follow him ? either you haue not read , or not cared for the practise of the auncient church , and augustines resolution concerning the sharpe penalties , imposed vpon the donatists ( would god none of your kindred ) in his time , with his excellent defences of these proceedings . section . xi . constitution of the church of england . bvt tell vs then , what should haue beene done ? the gospell should haue beene euery where preached ; all conuer●s should haue been singled out , and haue gi●en a voluntary and particular confession of their faith , and repentance : i answere you : the gospell was long and worthily preached in the dayes of king edward ; enough to yeeld both martyres to the stake , and professors to the succeeding times : were their holy sermons , their learned writings , and their pretious blood ( which was no lesse vocall ) of no force ? afterwards , in the beginning of famous queene elizabeths reparation , what confluence was there of zealous confessors returning now from their late exile ? how painefully and diuinely did they labour in this vineyard of god ? how did they ( with their many holy partners , which had shrowded themselues during that storme of persecution , in a dangerous secrecy ) spread themselues ouer this land , and each-where drew flockes of hearers to them , and with them ? is all this nothing to their ingrateful posterity ? if you murmure that there was no more , take heede least you forget there were so many : for vs , wee doe seriously blesse god for these , and triumph in them . all this premised ; now comes a christian edict from the state , that euery man shall yeelde obedience to this truth , wherein they had beene thus instructed : it was performed by the most , whose submission , what was it but an actuall profession of their faith , and repentance ? and since such was their face , who dares iudge of their hearts ? more then this , if euer can bee shewed absolutely necessary in such a state of the church to the very constitution , and repaired . beeing thereof , i do here vow neuer to take the church of england for my mother . we know , and grieue to see how scornfully your whole sect , and amongst the rest , your resolute dr. turnes ouer these gratious entrances and proceedings of these two royall and blessed reformers ; and whom should he finde to raise his scoffes vpon , but that saint-like historian master foxe ? now ( saies master foxe ) a new face of things began to appeare , as it were in a stage , new players comming in , the olde thrust out : now ( saieth your doctors comment ) new bishoppes came in , as players vpon the olde stage of the popish church , as if the church were no whit altered , but the men : shall we say this is too much malice , or too little wit , and conscience ? euen in the lord protectors daies , that holy man reports , that after the scriptures restored , and masses abolished , greater thinges followed these softer beginnings , in the reformation of the churches : learned and godly diuines were called for from forraine parts , a separation was made ( though not so much willing , as wilfull ) of open and manifest aduersaries from professors , whether true or dissembled : commissioners were appointed to visite euery seuerall diocesse . euery bench of them had seuerall godly and learned preachers to instruct the people in the truth , and to disswade them from idolatry and superstition . the popes supremacy not thrust , but taught downe : all wil-worshippe whatsoeuer , oppugned by publique sermons : images destroyed , pilgrimages forbidden , the sacraments inioyned to be reuerently , and holily ministred , ecclesiastical persons reformed in life , in doctrine : processions laide downe , presence and attendance vpon gods word commanded , the holy expending of sabboth dayes appointed , due preparation to gods table called for , set times of teaching inioyened to bishoppes and other ministers , all shr●nes and monuments of idolatry required to be vtterly taken from publique and priuate houses : all this , before his parliament : by that , all bloody lawes against gods trueth were repealed , zealous preachers encouraged , so as ( saith that worthy historian ) god was much glorified , and the people in many places greatly edified : what neede i goe further then this first yeare ? heare this and be ashamed , and assure your selues that no man can euer read those holy monuments of the church but must needes spit at your separation . after that sweete and hopefull prince , what his renowmed sister queene elizabeth did , the present times doe speake and the future shall speake , when all these murmurers shall sleepe in the dust . the publique disputations , zealous preachings , restaurations of banished religion and men , extirpations of idolatry , christian lawes , wise and holy proceedings , and renewed couenants with god , are still fresh in the memories of some , and in the eares of all , so as all the world wil iustly say , you haue lost shame with truth , in denying it : yea to fetch the matter yet further , if the reader shall looke backe to the daies of their puissant father king henry the eight , he cannot but acknowledge ( especially during the time of queene anne , and before those sixe bloody articles ) a true face of a church ( though ouer-spreade with some morphue of corruptions ) and some commendable forwardnesse of reformation : for both the popes supremacy was abrogated , the true doctrine of iustification commonly taught , confidence in saints vntaught , the vanity of pardons declared , worshippe of images and pilgrimages forbidden , learned and godly ministers required , their absences and mis-demeaners inhibited , the scriptures translated , publickly and priuately inioyned to be read , and receiued , the word of god commaunded to be sincerely and carefully preached : and to all this , holy master foxe addeth for my conclusion , such a vigilant care was then in the king and his councell , how by all wayes and meanes to redresse religion , to reforme errours , to correct corrupt customes , to helpe ignorance , and to reduce the mis-leadings of christs flocke , drowned in blinde popery , superstitious customes , and idolatry to some better forme of reformation , whereunto he prouided not onely these articles , precepts , iniunctions aboue specified , to inform the rude people , but also procured the bishops to helpe forward the same cause of decayed doctrine , with their diligent preaching , and teaching of the people . goe now & say , that suddenly in one day , by queen elizabeths trumpet , or by the sound of a bell , in the name of antichrist , all were called to the church : goe , say with your patriarch that wee erect religions by proclamations , and parliaments . vpon these premises i dare conclude , and doubt not to maintaine against all separatists in the world that england ( to goe no higher ) had in the daies of king henry the eight , a true visible church of god , and so by consequent their succeeding seede was by true baptisme iustly admitted into the bosome therof , and therefore that euen of them without any further profession , gods church was truly constituted : if you shall say that the following idolatrie of some of them in queene maries daies excluded them : consider how hard it will be to prooue that gods couenant with any people , is presently disanulled by the sinnes of the most , whether of ignorance , or weakenesse ; and if they had herein renounced god , yet that god also mutually renounced them . to shut vppe your constitution then : there is no remedy : eyther you must goe forward to anabaptisme , or come backe to vs : all your rabbines ca●not aunswere that charge of your rebaptized brother : if wee bee a true church , you must returne , if wee bee not ( as a false church is no church of god ) you must rebaptise : if our baptisme be good , then is our constitution good . thus your owne principles teach . the outward parte of the true visible church is a vowe , promise , oathe or couenant betwixt god and the saints : now i aske , is this made by vs in baptisme , or noe ? if it be , then we haue ( by your confession ( for so much as is outwardly required ) a true visible church : so your separation is vniust : if it be not , then you must rebaptise : for the first baptisme is a nullity : and ( if ours be not ) you were neuer thereby as yet entred into any visible church . section . xii . the aunswerers title . as for the title of ring-leader , wherewith i stiled this pamphleter ; if i haue giuen him too much honour in his sect , i am sory : perhappes i should haue put him ( pardon an homely , but in this sense , not vnusall word ) in the taile of this traine : perhaps i should haue endorsed my letter to master smith , and his shadow ; so i perceiue he was : whatsoeuer , whither he lead or follow , god meetes with him : if hee lead : behold i will come against them that prophesie false dreames ( saith the lorde ) and doe tell them , and cause my people to erre by their lies . if he come behinde ; thou shalt not follow a multitude in euill ( saith god ) . if either , or both , or neither , if he will goe alone ; woe vnto the foolish prophets ( saith the lord ) which follow their owne spirits , and haue seene nothing . howsoeuer , your euill shall bee reproued by the light of gods word : your coni●●ction i cannot promise , your reproofe i dare , if therupon you shall finde grace to see and heale your errours , we should with all brotherly humblenesse attend on foote vpon your returne on horse-backe ; but if the sway of your mis-resolued conscience bee heady and vnresistable , and your retyring hopelesse ; these not solide reasons , these pretty pamphlets , these formall flourishes shall one day be fearefull and materiall euidences against you before that awefull iudge , which hath already sayd , that iudgements are prepared for the scorners , and stripes for the backe of fooles . section . xiii . the apostacie of the church of england . i professed to bestow pitie and sorrow vpon you and your wrong : you entertaine both harshly , and with a churlish repulse : what should a man do with such dispositions ? let him stroke them on the backe , they snarle at him ; and show their teeth : let him shew them a cudgell , they flie in his face : you allow not our actions , and returne our wrong ; ours is both the iniurie and complaint : how can this be ? you are the agents , we sit still , and suffer in this rent : yet ( since the cause makes the schisme ) let vs inquire , not whose the action is , but whos 's the desert : our church is deepe drencht in apostacie ; and wee crie peace , peace : no lesse then a whole church at once , & that not sprinkled , or wetshod , but drencht in apostacie ? what , did we fall off from you , or you from vs ? tell me , were we euer the true church of god ? and were we then yours ? we cannot fall vnlesse we once stood : was your church before this apostacie ? show vs your ancestours in opinion : name me but one that euer taught as you doe ; and i vow to separate : was it not ? then we fell not from you : euery apostacie of a church must needs be from the true church ; a true church , and not yours ? and yet can there be but one true ; see now whether in branding vs with apostasie , you haue not proued yours to be no true church : still i am ignorant : queene maries dayes ( you say ) had a true church , which separated from poperie , chose them ministers , serued god holily , from thence was our apostacie : but , were not the same also ( for the most part ) christians in king edvvards dayes ? did they then , in that confused allowance of the gospel , separate ? or ( i pray you ) were cranmer , latimer , ridley , hooper and the rest , parts of that church , or no ? was there any other ordination of ministers then from them ? reiect these , and all the world will hisse at you ; receiue them , and where is our apostacie ? what antichristianisme haue we , whereof these were freed ? but you leape backe ( if i vrge you farre ) from hence to the apostles times , to fe●ch our once true church from farre , that it might bee deare : you shall not carue for vs : we like not these bold ouer-leapes of so many centuries : i speake boldly , you dare not stand to the trial of any church , since theirs : now , i heare your doctor say this challenge sauors of rome : antiquitie is with you , a popish plea : we haue willingly taken vp our aduersaries , at this ( by pretence , their owne ) weapon : you debarre it in the conscience of your owne nouell singularitie : yet your pastor can be content to make vse of tertullian alone against all fathers ; that such things are iustly to be charged with vanitie , as are done without any precept either of the lord or of the apostles : and , the apostles did faithfully deliuer to the nations the discipline they receiued of christ , which we must beleeue to be the tumultuary discipline of the refined house-full at amster dam : what ? all in all ages , and places till now apostates ? say if you can , that those famous churches , wherein cyprian , athanasius , ambrose , hierome , austen , chrysostome , and the rest of those blessed lights liued , were lesse deepe in this apostacy then ours ? o apostaticall fathers , that separated not ! yea , say if you dare , that other reformed churches are not ouer the ankles with vs in this apostacy ? what hard newes is this to vs , when as , your oracle dare say not much lesse , of the reformed churches of netherlands , with whom you liue ? thus he writes : for not hearing of them in other congregations in these countries ; this i answer , that seeing by the mercie of god , we haue seene and forsaken the corruptions yet remayning in the publique ministration , and condition of these churches ( if they be all like to these of this citie ) , we cannot therfore partake with them , in such case , without declining and apostasie from the truth , which we haue our selues already receiued , and professed . see here , to partake with them in gods seruice is apostacy ; if so in the accessoryes , alas , what crime is in the principall ? it were but apostasie to heare an english sermon ; a dutch is no lesse : woe is you that you dwell still in meshech : good men ; it were not more happy for you then the church , that you were well in heauen . no lesse then apostasie ? let no reader bee appalled at so fearefull a word , this is one of the tearmes of arte familiar to this way : find but any one page of a duch printed volume without apostasie , excommunication , commingling , constitution , and suspect it not theirs : heresie is not more frequent at rome , then apostacy at amsterdam , nor indulgences more ordinary there , then here excommunications . common vse makes terrible thinges easie : their owne master sl. for holding with the dutch baptisme , and read-prayers is acknowledged to be cast our for an apostate : yea their doctor mr. a●nsworth is noted with this marke from themselues : there is much latitude ( as happy is ) in their apostasie : for when stanshall mercer and iacob iohnson were to be chosen officers in their church , and exception was taken by some at their apostacy , answere was made , it was not such apostacy as debarred them from office , it was but aslippe . iohn marke ( whether , as isychius and theophilact think , the blessed euangelist , or some other holy minister ) is by the whole parlour at amsterdam , branded with this same apostasie ; who departed indeed , but from paul in his iourney , not from christ in his faith , and therefore his ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is expounded by ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) act. 15. 38. why do we think much to drinke of an euangelists cuppe ? yet let this ignorant epistler teach his censorious answerer one point of his owne ( that is the separatists ) skill : and tell him that hee obiects two crimes to one poore church , which are incompatible ; want of constitution and apostasie . thus writes your master of vs : if it were admitted ( which can neuer bee proued ) that they sometimes had beene true established churches . loe here , we neuer had true constitution , therefore we are not capable of apostasie : if we once had it , and so were true churches , heare , what your pastor saith : as christ giueth to all true churches their being , so wee must leaue it vnto him to take it away , when , and as he pleaseth . and therefore since he hath not remoued his candlesticke , nor taken away his kingdome , in spight of all obiected apostasies , we still continue so : and by consequent your separation vpon this ground is most vniust . an apostate had wont to bee the fearefull surname of damned iulian : tortus was an easie accusar , to whom yet , we may say with elihu , num dicis regi , apostata ? behold now so many apostates as men : holy cyprian describes him by forsaking christs colors , & taking vp arms for gentilisme in life , or herefie in iudgment : and augustine telles vs , there cannot bee a greater sinne then apostasie ; making else-where this sinner , worse then the infidell and the olde vulgar can giue no worse tearme to ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) where he findes it , yea to ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) rebels themselues . what doth this brand to a church , not christian onely ( though you denie it ) but famous : of whom is truely verefied ( after all your splene ) that which the spirit writes to the angel of ephesus : laborasti & non defecisti : say if you can , what article of the christian , and apostolike faith haue we renounced ? what heresie maintaine wee ? wherein haue wee runne from the tents of christ ? what hold we that may not stand with life in christ , and saluation ? vve challenge all men and diuels in this point , for our innocence : distinguish , for starke shame of so foule a word ; or ( which is better ) eate it whole ; and let not this blemish be left vpon your soule and name in the records of god , and the world ; that you once said of a church too good for yours , drencht in apostacy . if we crie peace , whiles you crie apostasie ; surely we flatter , whiles you rayle : betwixt these two dangerous extremes , wee know an wholsome meane , so to approue that we foster not security : so to censure , that we neither reuile , nor separate : and in one word , to doe that which your pastor could exhort the separators from your separation ( for euen this schisme hath schismes ) if we should mislike , yet to rest in our differences of iudgement , and notwithstanding peaceably to continue with the church : had you taken this course , you should neither haue needed to expect our pitie , nor to complaine of our cruelty . surely , whether our loue be cruell , or not , your hatred is , whereof , take heede least you heare from old iacob , cursed be their wrath for it was fierce , and their rage for it was cruell . how can you expect compassion , when you breath fire , and write gall ? neuer mention the fury of others indignation , till the venemous and desperate writings of barrow and greenwood bee evther worne out with time , or by the thunder-bolts of your ( not rare ) censures be strucke downe to hell , whence their maliciousnesse came . i forbeare to recapitulate , how much rather had i helpe to burie , then to reuiue such vn-christian exprobrations ? section . xiiii . the separatists acknowledgements of the graces of the church of england . ingratitude and vnnaturalnesse to your mother is obiected , in that you flie from her , yea now ( wo is me ) that you spit in her face , and mark her for an harlot : vvould god the accusation were as farre from being iust , as from being triuiall : yet perhappes you intend it not in the lightnesse of this charge , but the commonnesse : you haue caused me to smart for my charity , yet i forbeare it not : vvhat is your defence ? that you haue done her no wrong , to your knowledge . modestly spoken , but doubtfully : we know your wrong , but we know not your knowledge : it is well if your wrong be not wilful : an ignorant wrong is both in more hope of amends , and of mercie : but is not this caution added , rather for that you thinke no hard measure can possibly be a wrong to so vile a church ? i aske , and would be denied : no , you doe freely , and with all thankefulnesse acknowledge euery good thing she hath : vvhatsoeuer you doe to vs , i will not any more in fauour of you , wilfully wrong my selfe : you haue bidden men now to take you as a complete separatist : and speake this for your selfe and yours . let the reader now iudge , whether the wrong of your sect be wilful ; and acknowledgment of our good , free and thankfull . your first false-named martyr shall giue the first witnes of the titles of our church : vvho ( saith he ) that were not drunke and intoxicate with the vvhores cuppe ; could affirme this confuse babell , these cages of vncleane birds , these prisons of foule and hatefull spirits , to be the spouse of christ ? and else-where , he calles the people of our church goates and swine . is this any wrong to your knowledge ? the same author : they haue not ( saith he ) in their churches any one thing in their practise and proceedings , not one pin , naile , or hooke according to the true patterne : doe you not now freely and thankefully acknowledge our churches good things ? vvhat is more ordinary with him , and his brother in euill i. greenewood , then to call our worthie ministers baals priests , cainites , the marked seruants of antichrist , sellers of the vvhores wares , worshippers of the beast . is this yet any wrong to your knowledge ? pastor iohnson sticks not to say , that the ministerie and worshippe of the church of england were taken out of the vvhores cuppe : and plainely stiles our church ( as which of you doe not ? ) daughter of the great babilon , that mother of whoredomes and abhominations of the earth : yet more ; that hierarchy , worshippe , constitution and gouernement , which they professe and practise , being directly antichristian , doe vtterly destroy true christianity , so as their people and churches , cannot in that estate be iudged true christians : do you not now freely and thankfully acknowledge our good things ? what can any diuell of hell say worse against vs then this , that we are no christians ? or what good can there be in vs , if no true christianity ? if wee denied euery article of the christian creed : if we were mahumetans ( as your good pastor stickes not to compare vs ) , if the most damned heretiques vnder heauen , what could he say but no christians ? your teacher and pastour ( which is a wonder ) agree : for your doctor ainsworth makes this one head of his poysonous counterpoyson , that christ is not the head , mediatour , prophet , priest , king of the church of england : you , their disciple are not yet promoted to this height of immodestie ; yet what are your good things ? euen to you , we are apostates , traytors , rebels , babylonish : this is well for a learner : hereafter ( if you will heare me ) keepe our good things to your selfe , and report our euill . yea , that your vncharitablenesse may bee aboue all examples , monstrous ; you doe not onely denie vs any interest in the church of christ , but exclude vs ( what you may ) from all hope and possibilitie of attaining the honour of christendome : for when a godly minister protested to master barrow , the trueth of his ministerie ; vpon the approbation also of his people , hee receiued this answere from him : though you had such allowance , it could nothing auaile , but rather ouerthrow your ministerie ; they being as yet vngathered to christ , and therefore neither may not in this estate chuse them a minister , nor any exercise a ministerie vnto them , without hainous sacriledge , o desperate iudgement ; we neither are christians , nor can be : no christianitie without faith , no faith without the ministerie of the word , no word to vs without sacriledge : what are we , that the very offer of bringing vs to god should be criminall ? these are your acknowledgements of our good : who haue learned of your pastour to kisse and kill all at once : to blesse and curse with one breath : your mercies are cruell . section . xv. the vnnaturalnesse of some principall separatists . bvt who can wonder at your vnnaturalnesse to the church , that heares what measure you mete to your owne ? errour is commonly ioyned with cruelty : the outragious demeanures of the circumcelliones in augustines time ; and more then barbarous tyranny of the arrians before him are wel knowen by all histories , and not enough by any : god forbid , that i should compare you to these . heare rather of nouatus , the father of a not-vnlike sect , of whom cyprian reports , that he would neither bestow bread on his father aliue , nor buriall on him deade , but suffred him both to starue and stinke in the street : and for his wife ( least he should be mercifull to any ) hee spurned her with his heele , and slew his owne childe in her bodie : what need i seeke so far ? i grieue to thinke and report , that your owne pastor hath paralleled this cruelty : his owne brother ( which is no lesse sauadge ) though one of your sect , is the publick accuser and condemner of him in this crime to all the world : who after a pittifull relation of his eight yeares quarrels with him , and foure years excommunication , in his epistle before a large volume to this purpose , writes thus : after all these , hath not our kind , carefull , and old father come a long iourney to make peace ? hath he not laboured with you , the elders and the church , to bring you to peace ? hath hee not vsed the helpe and counsell of the reformed churches herein ? yet will you not be reclaimed , but adding that sinne aboue all , haue also ●●●strously excommunicated your father , the peace-seeker , &c. and straight ; how oft desired he you ( as if he had beene the sonne , and you the father ) euen with teares , that you would repent . in a word , how came he and i to your doore , shewing you that it might bee ( vpon his departing ) you should see his face no more , &c. yet you forced him by your ill dealing , still to leaue vpon you , his curse , and all the curses writen in gods booke against vnthankfull and disobedient children . thus farre a brother concerning a brother , against father and brother ; other strangely-vnkind vsages of both , i had rather leaue to the discouery of master white , and this miserable plaintiue , who haue written enough to make an enemy ashamed : but whereupon was all this fearefull broile in a pure church ? for nothing but a little lace , and whale-bone in his wiues sleeue . the troian warre could not be slaundered with so weighty a beginning . as for your elder , daniel studly ( whom your pastor so much extolleth ) if master whites apostasie may be your shift against his relation ; let him speake who should haue beene a fellow-elder with him , banished for your trueth , though erected by your censure : marke ( saith g. iohns . of this studly ) how the lord hath iudged him with vnnaturalnesse to his owne children , suffering them to lie at other mens feete , and hang on other mens hands , whiles he , his wife , and her daughter fared daintily , and went prankingly in apparell , euen in this place of banishment . it is no ioy to me to blazen these , or your othersins ; would god they were fewer , and lesse in vs all . onely it was fit the world should know , as how vndutiful you are to your common parent , so that father , brother , children beare part with your mother in these your cruelties . section . xvi . what the separatists thinke themselues beholden to the church of england for . if then such bee the good things of our church ; what good can you acknowledge to haue receiued from her ? nothing giues what it hath not : a baptisme perhaps ; alas , but no true sacrament , you say : yea the seale of gracelesnesse and mischiefe ; as little are you beholden to the church for that , as the church to you , for your good acceptation : why are you not rebaptized ? you that cannot abide a false church , why doe you content your selues with a false sacrament ? especially , since our church , being not yet gathered to christ is no church , and therefore her baptisme a nullity . what else doe you owe to the liberality of this step-dame ? you are close ; your pastor is lauish for you both ; who thus speakes of himselfe , and you , and vs : i confesse that whiles i was minister in your church of england , i stood in an antichristian estate , yet doubt i not , but euen then , being of the elect of god i was partaker through faith , of the mercy of god in christ to saluation , but as for you ( master iacob and his fellow-christians ) whiles you thus remaine , you cannot in that estate approue your selues to haue the promise of saluation . behold here , the church of england gaue you but an antichristian estate ; if god giue secret mercy , what is that to her ? gods superabundant grace dooth neither abate ought of her antichristianisme , nor moue you to follow him in couering , and passing by the manifold enormities in our church , wherewith those good things are inseparably commingled : your owne mouth shall condemne you : doth god passe ouer our enormites , and doe you stick , yea separate ? doth his grace couer them , and do you display them ? haue you learned to be more iust then your maker ? or if you be not aboue his iustice , why are you against his mercie ? god hath not disclaimed vs by your owne confession ; you haue preuented him . if princes leisures may not be stayed in reforming , yet shall not gods in reiecting ? your ignorance inwrapped you in our errours : his infinite wisedome sees them , and yet his infinite mercie forbeares them : so might you at once haue seene , disliked , stayed : if you did not herein goe contrary to the courses of our common god , how happy should both sides haue beene ? yea how should there be no sides ? how should wee be more inseparably commingled , then our good and euill ? but should you haue continued still in sinne that grace might haue abounded ? god forbid : you might haue continued here without sinne ( saue your owne ) and then grace would no lesse haue abounded to you , then now your sinne abounds in not continuing : what neede you to surfet of another mans trencher ? others sinnes neede no more to infect you , then your graces can sanctifie them . as for your further light , suspect it not of god : suspect it to be meere darkenesse : and if the light in you be darknesse , how great is that darkenesse ? what ? so true and glorious a light of god , and neuer seene til now ? no worlds , times , churches , patriarches , prophets , apostles , martyrs , fathers , doctors , christians euer saw this truth looke foorth besides you , vntill you ? externall light was gods first creature , and shall this spirituall light , whereby all churches should be discerned come thus late ? mistrust therefore your eyes , and your light : and feare isayes woe , and the iewes miserable disappointment : we wait for light , but loe it is darkenesse , for brightnesse , but we walke in obscuritie . section . xvii . the motherhood of the church of england , how farre it obligeth vs. the church of england is your mother , to her small comfort ; she hath borne you , and repented . alas , you haue giuen her cause to powre out iobs curses vpon your birth-day , by your not onely forsaking but cursing her : stand not vpon her faults , which you shall neuer proue capitall : note only the best parent might haue brought forth are bellious sonne to be stoned . what then ? doe we preferre duetie to piety , and so plead for our holy mother church , that we neglect our heauenly father , yea offend him ? see what you say : it must needes be an holy mother that cannot be pleased without the displeasure of god : a good wife , that opposes such an husband : a good sonne that vpbraides this vniustly : therfore is she a church , your mother , holy , because she bred you to god , cleaues to him , obeyes his commaundements , and commaunds them . and so farre is shee from this desperate contradiction , that she voweth not to hold you for her sonne , vnlesse you honour god as a father . it is a wilful slaunder , that you could not but heynously transgresse vnder her : i dare take it vpon my soule , that all your transgression which you should necessarily haue incurred by her obedience , is nothing so heynous , as your vnchariblenesse in your censures and disobedience . conscience is a common plea euen to those you hate : we inquire not how strong it is , but how well informed : not whether it suggest this , but whereuppon . to goe against the conscience is sinne , to follow a mis-informed conscience is sinne also : if you do not the first , we know you are faulty in the second : he that is greater then the conscience will not take this for an excuse : but wherein should haue beene this transgression : so vnauoidable , heynous , against conscience ? first in the want of many ordinances , to which we are most strictly bound , both by gods word , and our owne necessities . section . xviii . the want of pretended ordinances of god , whether sinfull to vs : and whether they are to be set vp without princes . can you thinke this hangs well together ? you should here want many of gods ordinances : why should you want them ? because you are not suffered to inioy them : who hinders it ? superior powers : did euer man willfully and heynously offend , . for wanting of that which he could not haue ? what hath conscience to doe with that which is out of our power ? is necessity with you become a sinne , and that haynous ? dauid is driuen to lurke in the wildernesse , and forced to want the vse of many diuine ordinances : it was his sorrow , not his transgression , he complaines of this , but doth he accuse himselfe of sinne ? not to desire them had beene sinne , no sin to be debat'd them : well might this be sauls sin but not his . haue you not sinnes enow of your owne , that you must needes borrow of others ? but i see your ground : you are bound to haue these ordinances ; and therefore without princes , yea against them : so it is your transgression to want them in spight of magistrates , gaudentius the donatist taught you this of old ; and this is one of the hebrew songs which master b●rrow sings to vs in babylon , that we care not to make christ attend vpon princes , and to be subiect to their lawes , and gouernment : and his predecessor ( the roote of your sect ) tels vs in this sense the kingdome of heauen must suffer violence ; and that it comes not with obseruation ; that men may say , loe the parliament or loe the bishops decrees : and in the same treatise . the lords kingdome must wait on your policy , forsooth ; and his church must be framed to your ciuill state &c. iust as that donatist of old , in augustine , quid vobis &c. what haue you to doe with worldly emperours ? and as that other in optatus : quid imperatori cum ecclesia ? what hath the emperour to doe with the church ? yea your martyr feares not to teach vs , that gods seruants being as yet priuate men , may and must together build his church , though all the princes of the world should prohibit the same vpon paine of death : belike then you should sin haynously , if you should not be rebels : the question is not , whether we shold aske leaue of princes to be christians ; but whether of christian princes wee should aske leaue to establish circumstances of gouernment : god must be serued , thogh we suffer ; our blood is wel bestowed vpon our maker , but in patience , not in violence . priuate profession is one thing ; publique reformation & iniunction is another ; euery man must doe that in the maine : none may doe this , but they of whom god saies , i haue said , ye are gods : and of them : there is difference betwixt christian and heathen princes : if ( at least ) al princes were not to you heathen : if these should haue beene altogether stayed for , religion had come late : if the other should not be stayed for : religion would soone be ouer layd with confusion : lastly , the body of religion is one thing , the skyrts of outward gouernment another : that may not depend on men to be imbraced , or ( with loyalty ) prosecuted : these ( vpon those generall rules christ ) both may , and doe , and must : if you cut off but one lappe of these with dauid , you shall be touched : to denie this power to gods deputies on earth , what is it , but ye take too much vpon you mo●es and aaron , all the congregation is holy : wherefore lift ye your selues aboue the congregation of the lord ? see , if herein you come not too neere the walles of that rome which ye so abhorre and accurse , in ascribing such power to the church , none to princes . let your doctor tell you , whether the best israelites in the times of abijah , asa , iehosaphat , ezekiah , iosiah , tooke vpon them to reforme without , or before , or against their princes ? yea did nehemiah himselfe without artahshaht ( though an heathen king ) set vpon the walles of gods city ? or what did zerubbabel , and ieshua without cyrus ? in whose time haggai and zechariah prophesied indeede , but built not : and when contrary letters came from aboue , they laid by both trowels and swords : they would bee iewes still , they would not be rebels for god : had those letters inioyned swines flesh , or idolatry , or forbidden the vse of the law , those which now yeelded , had suffered , and at once testified their obedience to authority , and piety to him that sittes in the assembly of these earthen gods. i vrge no more : perhaps you are more wise or lesse mutinous : you might easily therefore purge your conscience from this sinne , of wanting what you might not perforce enioy . say that your church should imploy you backe to this our babylon , for the calling out of more proselites : you are intercepted , imprisoned : shall it bee sinne in you not to heare the prophesies at amsterdam ? the clinke is a lawfull excuse : if your feete be bound , your conscience is not bound . in these negatiues , outward force takes away both sinne and blame , and alters them from the patient to the actor : so that now you see your straight bonds ( if they were such ) loosed by obedience , and ouer-ruling power . section . xix . the bonds of gods word vniustly pleaded by the separ . bvt what bonds were these straight ones ? gods word and your owne necessity : both strong and indissoluble where god hath bidden , god forbid that we should care for the forbiddance of men : i reuerence from my soule ( so doth our church their deare sister ) those worthy forraine churches which haue chosen and followed those formes of outward gouernment that are euery way fittest for their owne condition . it is enough for your sect , to censure them : i touch nothing common to them with you : a while the world standeth , where will it euer be shewed out of the sacred booke of god , that hee hath charged . let there be perpetuall lay-elders in euery congregation : let euery assembly haue a pastor and doctor , distinct in their charge and offices : let all decisions , excommunications , ordinations be performed by the whole multitude : let priuate christians ( aboue the first turne , in extremity ) agree to set ouer themselues a pastor , chosen from amongst them and receiue him with prayer , and ( vnlesse that ceremony be turned to pompe and superstition ) by imposition of hands . let there be widdowers ( which you call relieuers ) appointed euery where to the church-seruice let certaine discreete and able men which are not ministers be appointed to preach the gospell and whole truth of god to the people . all the learned diuines of other churches are in these left , yea in the most of them censured by you : hath god spoken these things to you alone ? pleade not reuelations , and wee feare you not : pardon so homely an example : as soone and by the same illumination shal g. iohns . proue to your consistory the lace of the pastors wiues sleeue , or rings , or whale-bones , or other amongst you ( as your pastor confesseth ) knit stockings , or cork-shooes forbidden flatly by scriptures , as these commanded . we see the letter of the scriptures with you : you shall fetch blood of them with strayning , ere you shal wring out this sēse : no , no ▪ ( m. r. ) neuer make god your stale : many of your ordinances came from no ●ier then your own braine : others of them though god acknowledges yet he imposed not : pretend what you will : these are but the cords of your owne conceit , not bonds of christian obedience . section . xx. the necessity of their pretended ordinances . the first of these then is easily vntwisted : your second is necessity : then which , what can bee stronger ? what law , or what remedy is against necessity ? what we must haue , we cannot want : oppose but the publique necessitie to yours : your necessity of hauing , to the publique necessity of withholding : and let one of these necessities ( like two nailes ) driue out another : so they haue done , and your owne necessity ( as the stronger ) hath preuailed ; for that other necessity might bee eluded by flight : you haue sought and found else-where , what the necessity of our lawes denied , and the necessity of your conscience required . beware lest vniustly : sinne is as strong bond to a good heart as impossibility ; christians can not doe what they ought not : contrary to the lawes of your prince and countrie , you haue fledde not onely from vs , but from our communion . either is disobedience no sinne , or might you do this euil that good may come of it ? but what necessity is this ? simple and absolute , or conditional ? is there no remedy but you must needes haue such elders , pastors , doctors , relieuers , such offices , such executions ? can there be no church , no christians without them ? what shall we say of the families of the patriarkes , of the iewish congregations vnder the law , yea of christ and his apostles ? either denie them to haue beene visible churches , or shew vs your distinct offices amongst them : but as yet ( you say ) they were not : therefore god hath had a true church ( thousands of yeares ) without them : therefore they are not of the essence of the church : you call me to the times since christ : i demand then , was there not a worthy church of god in hierusalem from the time of christs ascension , till the election of the seauen deacons . those hundred and twentie disciples , act. 1. 15. and three thousand conuerts , act. 2. 41. those continuall troupes that flocked to the apostles , were they no true church ? let the apostles and euangelists bee pastors and doctors : where were their elders , deacons , relieuers ? afterwards , when deacons were ordained , yet what news is there of elders , till act. 11 ? yet that of hierusalem was more forward then the rest : we will not ( as you are wont ) argue from scriptures negatiuely : no proofe yet much probability is in saint paules silence : hee writes to rome , corinth , and other churches : those his diuine letters in a sweet christian ciuility salute euen ordinary christians : and would hee haue vtterly passed by all mention of these church-officers amongst his so precise acknowledgment of lesser titles in others , if they had beene ere this ordained ? yet all these more then true churches , famous some of them , rich , forward , and exemplary . onely the philippian church is stiled with bishops and deacons , but no elders besides them . the churches of christ since these , ( if at least you will graunt that christ had any church till now ) haue continued in a recorded succession through many hundreds of yeares : search the monuments of her histories : shew vs where euer in particular congregations all these your necessary offices ( as you describe them ) were either found or required . it was therefore a new-no-necessity that bound you to this course , or ( if you had rather ) a necessity of fallibility : if with these god may be well serued , he may be well serued without them . this is not that vnum necessarium that christ commends in mary : you might haue sate still with lesse trouble , and more thanks . section . xxi . the enormities of the church in common . bvt besides that we ought to haue had somewhat which we want , we haue some what which wee should haue wanted : some ? yea many antichristian enormities . to say we are absolute , and neither want nor abound , were the voice of laodicea or tyrus in the prophet : our church as shee is true , so humble : and is as farre from arrogating perfection , as acknowledging falshood : if she haue enormities yet not so many : or if many , not antichristian . your cham hath espied ninety one nakednesses in this his mother , and glories to shewe them , all his malice cannot shew one fundamentall errour : and when the foule mouth of your false martyr hath said all , they are but some spottes and blemishes , not the old running issues , and incurable botches of egypt : the particulars shall plead for themselues . these you eschue as hell : while you goe on thus vncharitably , both alike : doe you hate these more then master smith , and his faction hates yours ? his character shall be iudge : so doe we value your detestation as you his . it were well for you if you eschued these enormities lesse , and hell more : your sinfull subiection to these vnchristian humours will proue more fearefull then to our antichristian enormities . section . xxii . the church of england , is the spouse of christ. she may be your mother ( you say ) and not the lords wife . it is a good mother that hath children and no husband : why did you not call her plaine whore ? your old embleme is , as is the mother , so is the daughter . these are the modest circumlocutions of a good sonne ; who cares not to proue himselfe a bastard , that his mother may bee mark't for an harlot : be you a true lo-ammi , but england shall neuer ( i hope ) proue an apostate israel : we haue no calues in our dan and bethel none of iero●oams idolatry : vvee haue still called god ishi , and neuer burnt incense to baalim : it is your sinagogue that hath fallen away from vs , as israel from iuda : but these children were bidden to plead : gods command shields them from the note of vngracious . abraham must sacrifice his sonne and this sonne must condemne his mother ; shew vs either our equall desert , or your equall warrant . vvhere hath god proclamed our church not his ? by whose hand hath he published her diuorce ? you haue shamed her wombe , not she her bed , not god her demeanure . your tongues are your owne , who can forbid you ? vve know you will plead and excuse , and censure , and defend , till all the world be weary : we may pray with hierome to this sense that of the psalmist increpa domine bestias calami : yet wee see your pens , tongues , and presses , busie and violent . i will not apply to you that which augustine of his donatists . though truth compell you to be dumbe , yet iniquitie will not suffer you to be silent . but if you write whole marts and worlds of volumes , you shall neuer be able either to iustifie your innocence , or excuse your fault : in the meane time the noyse of your contentions is so great that your truth cannot bee heard : learned iunius , and our learnedst diuines , and neighbour churches , haue oft heard your clamors , neuer your truth : so little haue you of this and so much of the other , that we are ready to wish ( as he of old ) either our selues deafe or you dumb . section . xxiii . how the church of england , hath separated from babylon . the spirit of your proto-martyr would hardly haue digested this title of babylon , mother of gods people ; a murdering step-mother , rather : she cannot be a mother of chil●ren to god , and no church of god : notwithstanding , gods people ( would he say ) may be in her , not of her . so babylon bore them not , but sion in babylon , but i feare not your excesse of charity : you fly to your doctors challenge ; and aske what we say against you for vs , which rome wil not say for her selfe against vs : will you iustifie this plea of rome , or not ? if you will ; why doe you reuile her ? if you will not : why doe you obiect it ? heare then what we say both to you and them , our enemies both : and yet the enemies of our enemies : first we disclaime , and defie your pedigree and theirs . the church of rome was neuer our mothers mother : our christian faith came not from the seuen-hilles : neither was deriued either from augustine the monke , or pope gregory . britanny had a worthy church before either of them look't into the world : it is true that the ancient roman church was sister to ours : here was neare kindred , no dependance : and not more consanguinitie , then ( while she continued faithfull ) christian loue : now she is gone a whoring , her chast sister iustly spitteth at her : yet euen still ( if you distinguish , as your learned antagonist hath taught you , betwixt the church and papacy ) shee acknowledges her sisterhood , though she refraines her cōuersation : as she hath many slauish and factious abettors of her knowne and grosse errors ( to whom we deny this title ) affirming them the body whereof antichrist is the head , the great whore , and mother of abhominations ; so againe how many thousands hath shee , which retayning the foundation according to their knowledge , ( as our learned whitakers had wont to say of bernard ) follow absolom with a simple heart : all which to reiect from gods church , were no better thē presumptuous cruelty . it were well for you before god & the world , if you could as easiely wash your hands of vn-naturall impiety , and trecherousnesse , as we of bastardy & vniust sequestration . there can be no bastardy , where was neuer any motherhood , wee were nephews to that church , neuer sons : vnlesse as rome was the mother citie of the world , so by humane institution , we suffered our selues to bee ranged vnder her patriarchall authority , as being the most famous church of the west : a matter of courtesie , and pretended order ; no necessity , no spirituall obligation . as for our sequestration , your mouth and theirs may be stopt with this answer : as all corrupted churches , so some things the church of rome still holds aright ; a true god in three persons , true scriptures , though with addition , a true christ , though mangled with foule and erroneous consequences ; true baptisme though shamefully deformed with rotten traditions ; & many other vndenyable truths of god : some other things ( and too many ) her wicked apostasie hath deuised and maintained abhominably amisse ; the body of her antichristianisme , grosse errours , and ( by iust sequel ) heresies ; their popes supremacy , infallibility , illimitation , transubstantiation , idolatrous and superstitious worshippe , and a thousand other of this branne : in regard of all these latter , we professe to the world a iust and auncient separation from this false faith and deuotion of the romish church ; which neither you will say , nor they shall euer proue , faulty : yea rather they haue in all these separated from vs , who stil irrefragably professe to hold with the auncient , from whom they are departed . in regard of the other we are stil with them , holding and embracing with them what they holde with christ : neither will you ( i thinke ) euer prooue that in these we should differ : as for our communion , they haue separated vs by their proude and foolish excommunications : if they had not , wee would iustly haue begunne : from their tyranny and antichristianisme , from their miserable idolatrie : but as for the bodie of their poore seduced christians , which remaine amongst them vpon the true foundation ( as doubtlesse there are thousands of them which laugh at their pardons , miracles , superstitions and their trust in merites , reposing only vpon christ ) we adhere to them in loue and pitty , and haue testified our affection by our blood , ready vpon any iust call to doe it more ; neither would feare to ioyne with them in any true seruice of our common god : but the full discourse of this point , that honourable and learned plesses hath so forstalled , that whatsoeuer 〈◊〉 say , would seeme but borrowed . vnto his rich treatise i referre my reader , for full satisfaction : would god this point were throughly known , and well weighed on all partes . the neglect or ignorance whereof hath both bred and nursed your separation , and driuen the weake and inconsiderate into strange extremities . this say we for our selues in no more charity then truth : but for you ; how dare you make this shamelesse comparison ? can your heart suffer your tong to say , that there is no more diffrence betwixt rome and vs , then there is betwixt vs and you ? how many hundred errours , how many damnable heresies haue we euinced with you , in that ( so compounded ) church ? shew vs but one mis-opinion in our church that you can proue within the ken of the foundation ? let not zeale make you impudent : your doctor could say ( ingenuously sure ) that in the doctrines which she professeth , she is farr better and purer then that whore mother of rome , and your last martyr yet better : if you mean ( saith he ) by a church ( as the most doe ) that publique profession whereby men do professe saluation to be had by the death and righteousnesse of iesus christ , i am free from denying any church of christ to be in this land : for i know the doctrine touching the holy trinity , the natures and offices of the lord iesus , free iustification by him ; both the sacraments , &c. published by her maiesties authority , and commanded by her lawes , to be the lords blessed and vndoubted truthes , without the knowledge and profession whereof no saluation is to be had : thus he with some honesty , though little sense . if therfore your will do not stand in your light , you may well see , why we should thus forsake their communion , and yet not you ours . yet though their corruptions be incomparably more , wee haue not dared to separate so farre from them , as you haue done from vs for lesse : still wee holde them euen a visible church , but vnsound , sicke , dying ; sicke not of a consumption onely , but of a leprosie or plague ( so is the papacy to the church ) diseases , not more deadly then infectious . if they be not rather in sardies taking ; of whom the spirit of god saieth , thou hast a name that thou liuest , but thou art dead ; and yet in the next words bidds them awake , and strengthen the things which are ready to die . and though our iudgement and practise haue forsaken their erroneous doctrines and seruice , yet our charity ( if you take that former distinction ) hath not vtterly forsaken and condemned their persons . this is not our coolenesse , but equality : your reprobation of vs for them , hath not more zeale then headstrong vncharitablenesse . section . xxiiii the separation made by our holy martyrs . bvt how could you without blushing once name cranmer , latimer , and those other holy-martyres , which haue beene so oft obiected to the conuiction of your schisme ? those saints so forsooke the romish church , as wee haue done , died witnesses of gods truth in that church , from which you are separated : liued , preached , gouerned , shed their blood in the communion of the church of england which you disclaime and condemne as no church of god , as merely antichristian : either of necessity they were no martyrs , yea no christians , or else your separations and censures of vs are wicked . chuse whether you will ; they were in the same case with vs ; wee are in the same case with them : no difference but in time : eyther their blood will be vpon your heads , or your owne : this church had then the same constitution , the same confusion , the same worshippe , the same ministery , the same gouernement ( which you brand with antichristianisme ) swayed by the holy hands of these men of god ; condemne them , or allow vs. for their separation : they found many main errours of doctrine in the church of rome ( in the papacy nothing but errours ) worth dying for : shew vs one such in ours , and wee will not onely approue your separation , but imitate it . section . xxv . what separation england hath made . the church of england dooth not now wash her hands of babilonish abhominations , but rather shewes they are cleane . would god they were no more foule with your slander then her owne antichristianisme . here will bee found not pretences but proofes of our forsaking babylon ; of your forsaking vs , not so much as wel-coloured pretences : you beginne to be ingenuous ; while you confesse a reformation in the church of england : not of some corruptions , but many , and those many not sleight , but maine . the gifts of aduersaries are thankelesse : as ierom said of his ruffinus , so may we of you , that you wrong vs with praises : this is no more praise then your next page giues to antichrist himselfe . leaue out many , and though your commendations be more vncertaine , we shall accept it : so your indefinite proposition shall sound to vs as generall ▪ that we haue reformed the maine corruptions of the romish church : none therefore remaine vpon vs ; but sleight and superficiall blemishes , so you haue forsaken a church of a foule skinne , but of a sound heart , for want of beauty , not of truth . but you say many , not all , that if you can picke a quarrell with one , you might reiect all : yet shewe vs that one maine and substantiall error , which we haue not reformed : and you doe not more embrace those truths with vs which we haue receiued , then we will condemne that falshood which you haue reiected : and imbrace the truth of that separation which you haue practised . the degrees whereby that strumpet of babylon got on horse-back you haue learned of vs , who haue both learned and taught , that as christ came not abruptly into the world , but with many presages and prefigurations ( the day was long dawning ere this sunne arose ) . so his aduersary ( that antichrist ) breaks not suddenly vpon the church , but comes with much preparation , and long expectance : and as his rise , so his fall must be graduall , and leisurely : why say you then , that the whole church euery where must at once vtterly fall off from that church where that man of sinne sitteth ? his fall depends on the fall of others , or rather their rising from vnder him : if neither of these must be sudden , why is your hast ? but this must not be , yet ought : as there must be heresies , yet there ought not : it is one thing what god hath secretly decreede , another what must be desired of vs : if we could pull that harlot from her seate , and put her to iezebels death , it were happy : haue we not endeuoured it ? vvhat speake you of the hyest towers , and strongest pillers , or tottering remainders of babylon : we shew you all her roofes bare , her walles raced , her vaults diged vp , her monuments defaced , her altars sacrificed to desolation : shortly al her buildings demolished , not a stone vpon a stone saue in rude heapes , to tell that here once was babylon : your strife goes about to build againe that her tower of confusion . god deuides your languages : it wil be wel , if yet you build not more then we haue reserued . section . xxvi . the maine grounds of separation . yov will now be free both in your profession and gift , you giue vs to haue renounced many false doctrins in popery : and to haue imbraced so many truths : we take it vntill more : you professe where you sticke , what you mislike : in those foure famous heades , which you haue learned by heart from all your predecessors : an hatefull prelacy , a deuised ministery , a confused and prophane communion , and lastly the intermixture of grieuous errors . what if this truth were taught vnder an hatefull prelacy ? suppose it were so ? must i not imbrace the truth because i hate the prelacy ? what if israel liue vnder the hatefull egyptians ? what if ieremy liue vnder hatefull pashur ? what if the iewes liue vnder an hateful priesthood ? what if the disciples liue vnder hatefull scribes ? what are others persons to my profession . if i may be freely allowed to be a true professed christian , what care i vnder whose hands ? but why is our prelacy hatefull ? actiuely to you , or passiuely from you ? in that it hates you ? would god you were not more your owne enemies : or rather because you hate it ? your hatred is neither any newes , nor paine : who or what of ours is not hatefull to you ? our churches , belles , clothes , sacraments , preachings , prayers , singings , catechismes , courts , meetings , burialles , mariages : it is maruell that our aire infects not : and that our heauen and earth ( as optatus said of the donatists ) escape your hatred : not the forwardest of our preachers ( as you tearme thē ) haue found any other entertainment ; no enemy could be more spightfull , i speake it to your shame . rome it selfe in diuers controuersary discourses hath bewrayed lesse gall , then amsterdam : the better they are to others , you professe they are the worse : yea would to god that of paule were not verified of you : hatefull , and hating one another : but we haue learned , that of wise christians not the measure of hatred should be respected , but the desert : dauid is hatred for no cause , : michaiah for a good cause : your causes shall be examined in their places : onwards it were happy if you hated your owne sinnes more , and peace lesse : our prelacy would trouble you lesse , and you the church . section . xxvii . the truth and warrant of the ministery of england . for our deuised office of ministery , you haue giuen it a true title . it was deuised indeed by our sauiour when he said , go teach all nations and baptise ; and performed in continuance when hee gaue some to be pastors and teachers ; and not only the office of ministery in generall , but ours whom hee hath made both able to teach , and desirous , seperated vs for this cause to the worke , vpon due tryall admitted vs , ordayned vs by imposition of handes of the eldershippe , and prayer , directed vs in the right diuision of the word , committed a charge to vs ; followed our ministery with power , and blessed our labours with gratious successe , euen in the hearts of those whose tongues are thus busie to denie the truth of our vocation : behold here the deuised office of ●our ministery : what can you deuise against this ? your pastor , who ( as his brother writes ) hopes to worke wonders by his logicall skill , hath killed vs with seuen arguments , which hee professeth the quintessence of his owne , and penryes extractions , whereto your doctor referres vs as absolute . i would it were not tedious or worth a readers labour to see them scanned . i protest before , god and the world , i neuer read more grosse stuffe so boldly and peremptorily faced out : so full of tautologies and beggings of the question neuer to bee yeelded . let mee yet mention the maine heads of them , and for the rest be sory that i may not be endlesse . to proue therefore that no communion may be had with the ministery of the church of england , he vses these seuen demonstrations first , because it is not that ministery which christ gaue , and set in his church : secondly , because it is the ministerie of antichrists apostasie : thirdly , because none can communicate with the ministery of england , but he worshippes the beasts image , and yeeldeth spirituall subiection to antichrist : fourthly , because this ministery deriueth not their power and functions from christ : fiftly , because they minister the holy things of god by vertue of a false spirituall calling : sixthly , because i● is a strange ministery , not appointed by god in his word : seuenthly , because it is not from heauen , but from men . now i beseech thee christian reader , iudge whether that which this man was wont so oft to obiect to his brother ( a crack't braine ) appeare not plainely in this goodly equipage of reasons , for what is al this but one , and the same thing tumbled seuen times ouer ? which yet with seuen thousand times babling shall neuer be the more probable . that our ministery was not giuen and set in the church by christ , but antichristian , what is it else to be from men , to bee strange , to be a false spirituall calling , not to bee deriued from christ , to worship the image of the beast ? so this great challenger that hath abridged his nine arguments to seuen , might aswell haue abridged his seuen to one and a halfe . here would haue beene as much substance , but lesse glory : as for his maine defence : first , wee may not either haue , or expect now in the church that ministery which christ set : where are our apostles , prophets , euangelists ? if we must alwayes looke for the very same administration of the church which our sauiour left , why doe wee not challenge these extraordinary functions ? doe we not rather thinke , since it pleased him to beginne with those offices which should not continue , that herein he purposely intended to teach vs , that if wee haue the same heauenly busines done we should not be curious in the circumstances of the persons : but for those ordinary callings of pastors and doctors ( intended to perpetuity ) with what forehead can hee denie them to bee in our church ? how many haue we that conscionably teach and feede , or rather feede by teaching ? call them what you please , superintendents ( that is ) bishoppes , prelates , priests , lecturers , parsons , vicars , &c. if they preach christ truly , vpon true inward abilities , vpon a sufficient ( if not perfect ) outward vocation : such a one ( let all histories witnesse ) for the substance , as hath bin euer in the church since the apostles times : they are pastors and doctors allowed by christ : we stand not vpon circumstances and appendances of the fashions of ordination , manner of choyce , attire , titles , maintenance : but if for substance these be not true pastors and doctors christ had neuer any in his church , since the apostles left the earth . all the difficulty is in our outward calling : let the reader graunt our graue and learned bishoppes to be but christians , and this will easily be euinced lawfull , euen by their rules : for , if with them euery plebeian artificer hath power to elect and ordaine by vertue of his christian profession ( the act of the worthiest standing for all ) how can they deny this right to persons qualified ( besides common graces ) with wisedome , learning , experience , authority ) ? eyther their bishoppricke makes them no christians ( a position which of all the world , besides this secte , would be hissed at ) or else their handes imposed are thus farr ( by their rules of separatists ) effectual . now your best course is ( like to an hare that runnes backe from whence she was started ) to flye to your first hold : no church , therefore no ministery : so now , not the church hath deuised the ministery , but the ministery hath deuised the church : i follow you not in that idle circle : thence you haue beene hunted already : but now , since i haue giuen account of ours : i pray you tell me seriously , who deuised your office of ministery ? i dare say , not christ , not his apostles , not their successors : what church euer in the world can be produced ( vnlesse in case of extremity for one turn ) whose conspiring multitude made themselues ministers at pleasure ? what rule of christ prescribes it ? what reformed church euer did , or doth practise it ? vvhat example warrants it ? where haue the inferiors laid hands vpon their superiors ? vvhat congregation of christendome in all records affoorded you the necessary patterne of an vnteaching pastor , or an vnfeeding teacher ? it is an old policy of the faulty to complaine first : certainely there was neuer popish legend a more errand deuise of man then some parts of this ministery of yours , so much gloried in for sincere correspondence to the first institution . section . xxviii . confused communion of the prophane . yovr scornefull exception at the confused communion of the prophane multitude sauors strong of a pharisee , who thought it sinne to conuerse ( cum terrae filijs ) the base vulgar , and whose very phylacteries did say , touch me not , for i am cleaner then thou . this multitude is prophane ( you say ) and this communion confused : if some be prophane , yet not all , for then could be no confusion in the mixture : if some be not prophane , why do you not loue them as much as you hate the other ? if all maine truthes be taught amongst some godly , some prophane : why will you more shunn those prophane , then cleaue to those truths , and those godly ? if you haue duely admonished him , and detested and bewailed his sinne ; what is another mans prophanenesse to you ? if prophanenesse be not punished , or confusion be tolerated , it is their sinne , whome it concerneth to redresse them : if the officers sinne , must we runne from the church ? it is a famous and pregnant protestation of god by ezechiell : the righteousnesse of the righteous shall be vpon him , and the wickednesse of the wicked shall be vpon himself . and if the fathers sower grapes cannot hurt the childrens teeth , how much lesse shall the neighbours ? but whither will you runne from this communion of the prophane ? the same fault you find with the dutch and french ; yea in your owne . how well you haue auoided it in your separation , let master white , george iohnson , master smith be sufficient witnesses , whose plentifull reports of your knowne vncleannesses , smothered mischiefes , malitious proceedings , corrupt packings , communicating with knowne offenders , bolstering of sinns , and willing conniuences , as they are shamefull to relate , so might well haue stopt your mouth from excepting at our confused communion of the prophane . section . xxix . our errours intermingled with truth . how many and grieuous errors are mingled with our truths shall appeare sufficiently in the sequell ; if any want , let it be the fault of the accuser , it is enough for the church of amsterdam to haue no errors . but ours are grieuous : name them , that our shame may be equall to your griefe : so many they are , and so grieuous that your martyr , when he was vrged to instance , could find none but our opinion concerning christs descent into hell ; and except hee had ouer-reached , not that . call you our doctrines some generall truthes ? looke into our confessions , apologies , articles , and compare them with any , with all other churches , and if you finde a more particular , found , christian , absolute profession of all fundamētall truths in any church since christ ascēded into heauen , renounce vs , as you do , & we wil seperate vnto you : but these truths are not soundly practised : let your pastor teach you , that if errours of practise should be stood vpon , there could bee no true church vpon earth : pull out your owne beame first : we willingly yeeld this to be one of your truths , that no truth can sanctifie errour : that one heresie makes an hereticke : but learne withall , that euery error doth not pollute all truthes : that there is hay and stubble which may burne , yet both the foundation stand , and the builder be saued : such is ours at the worst , why doe you condemne where god will saue ? no scripture is more worne with your tongus and pennes , then that of the leauen . 1. cor. 5. 6. if you would compare christs leauen with pauls , you should satisfie your selfe . christ sayes the kingdome of heauen is as leauen ; paule saies grosse sin is leauen : both leauens the whole lumpe : neither may be taken precisely , but in resemblance : not of equalitie , ( as he said well ) but of qualitie : for notwithstanding the leauen of the kingdome , some part you grant is vnsanctified ; so notwithstanding the leauen of sinne , some ( which haue striuen against it to their vtmost ) are not sowred : the leauening in both places must extend onely to whom it is intended : the subiects of regeneration in the one ; the partners of sinne in the other : so our sauiour saith , yee are the salt of the earth ; yet too much of the earth is vnseasoned : the trueth of the effect must bee regarded in these speeches not the quantity : it was enough for saint paule to shew them by this similitude , that grosse sins where they are tollerated haue a power to infect others : whether it be ( as hierome interprets it ) by ill example , or by procurement of iudgements : and thereupon the incestuous must be cast out : all this tends to the excōmunicating of the euill , not to the seperating of the good : did euer paule say , if the incestuous be not cast out , seperate from the church . show vs this , and wee are yours : else it is a shame for you that you are not ours : if antichrist holde many truths , and we but many , we must needes bee proud of your prayses : we holde all his truths , and haue showed you , how we hate all his forgeries , no lesse then you hate vs : yet the mistery of iniquity is still spun in the church of england ; but with a siner threed : so fine that the very eyes of your malice cannot see it , yet none of our least motes haue escaped you : thankes bee to our good god , wee haue the great mistery of godlinesse so fairely and happily spunne amongst vs , as all , but you , blesse god with vs , and for vs : as soone shall you finde charity and peace in your english church , as heresie in our church of england . section . xxx . whether our prelacy be antichristian . to the particular instances : i aske where are the proud towers of their vniuersall hierarchy : you answere roundly : one in lambeth , another in fulham , &c. what vniuersall ? did euer any of our prelates challenge all the world as his diocesse ? is this simplicitie , or malice ? if your pastor tell vs that as well a world as a prouince , let me returne it ; if he may be pastor ouer a parlour full : why not of a citie : and if of a citie , why not of a nation ? but these you will proue vnruinated towers of that babell : you aske therefore whether the office of archbishops , bishops , and the rest of that ranke , were not in queene maries daies , partes of that accursed hierarchy , and members of that man of sin . doubtlesse they were : who can deny it ? but now ( say you ) they haue the same ecclesiasticall iurisdiction continued : this is your miserable sophistry : those popish arch-bishoppes , and bishoppes and clergie were members of antichrist ; not as church-gouernours , but as popish : while they swore subiection to him , while they defended him , whiles they worshipt him aboue all that is called god , and extorted this homage from others , how could they be other but limmes of that man of sinne : shall others therefore which defie him , resist , trample vpon him , spend their liues and labours in oppugnation of him be necessarily in the same case , because in the same roome ? let me helpe your anabaptists with a sound argument : the princes , peeres and magistrates of the land in queene maries dayes were shoulders and armes of antichrist ; their calling is still the same ; therefore now they are such : your master smith vppon no other ground disclaimeth infants baptisme , crying out that this is the maine relique of antichristianisme . but see how like a wise master you confute your selfe : they are still members of the bodie , though the head ( the pope ) bee cutte off : the head is antichrist , therefore the body without the head is no part of antichrist : hee that is without the head christ , is no member of christ ; so contrarily : i heare you say , the very iurisdiction and office is here antichristian , not the abuse : what ? in them , and not in al bishops since , and in the apostles times ? alas , who are you that you should oppose al churches & times ? ignorance of church-story , & not distinguishing betwixt substances and appendances , personall abuses , and callings , hath ledde you to this errour : yet since you haue reckoned vp so many popes , let me helpe you with more : was there not one in lambeth when doctor cranmer was there ? one in fulham when ridly was there : one in worcester when latimer was there ? one at winchester when philpot was there ? we will goe higher ; was not hilarius at arles , paulinus at nola. primasius at vtica , eucherius at lyons , cyrill at alexandria , chrysostome at constantinople , augustine at hippo , ambrose at milaine ? what should i be infinite ? was not cyprian at carthage ? euodius and after him ignatius in s. iohns time at antioch , polycarpus at smyrna , philip at cesarea , iames and simeon and cleophas at hierusalem , and ( by much consent of antiquity ) titus in creet , timothy at ephesus , marke at alexandria : yea to be short , was there not euery where in all ages , an allowed superiority of church-gouernours vnder this title ? looke into the frequent subscriptions of all councels , and their canons ? looke into the registers of all times , and finde your selfe aunswered : let reuerend caluin be our aduocate : i would desire no other words to confute you , but his : he shall tell you that euen in the primitiue church , the presbiters chose one out of their number in euery city , whom they titled their bishop , least dissention should arise from equality . let hemingius teach you that this was the practise of the purest church : thus it was euer , and if princes haue pleased to annexe either large maintenances , or stiles of higher dignity , and respect vnto these , doe their additions annihilate them ? hath their double honour made voide their callings ? why more then extreme needinesse ? if aristotle would not allow a priest to be a tradesman , yet paul could yeeld to homely tent-making , if your elders grow rich or noble , doe they cease to bee , or beginne to be vnlawfull ? but in how many volumes hath this point beene fully discussed ? i list not to gleane after their full carts . section . xxxi . the iudgement and practise of other reformed churches . from your owne verdict you descend to the testimonies of all reformed churches : i blush to see so wilfull a slaunder fall from the penne of a christian . that all reformed churches renounce our prelacy as antichristian , what one hath done it ? yea , what one forraine diuine of note , hath not giuen to our clergy the right hand of fellowshippe ? so farre is it from this , that i. alasco was the allowed bishoppe of our first reformed strangers in this land , so farre that when your doctor found himselfe vrged ( by m. spr. ) with a cloud of witnesses for our church and ministery , as bucer , martyr , fagius , alasco , caluin , beza , bullinger , gualter , simler , zanchius , iunius , rollocus , and others , he had nothing to say for himselfe , but though you come against vs with horse-men and chariots , yet wee will remember the name of the lord our god , and turnes it off with the accusation of a popish plea , and reference to the practise of the reformed : and if therefore they haue so renounced it , because their practise receiues it not : vvhy like a true make-bate doe you not say , that our churches haue so renounced their gouernement ? these sisters haue learned to differ , and yet to loue , and reuerence each other : and in these cases to enioy their owne formes , without prescription of necessity , or censure . let reuerend beza bee the trumpet of all the rest ; who tells you that the reformed english churches cōtinue , vpheld by the authority of bishops , & archbishopps , that they haue had men of that ranke , both famous martyrs , and worthy pastors and doctors : and lastly congratulates this blessing to our church : or let hemingius tell you the iudgement of the danish church : iudicat caeteros ministros &c. it iudgeth saith he , that other ministers should obey their bishoppes in all things , which make to the edification of the church , &c. but what doe i oppose any to his name-lesse , all ? his owne silence confutes him enough in my silence . section . xxxii . our synodes determination of things indifferent . there was neuer a more idle and beggerly cauill then your next : your christian reader must needs thinke you hard driuen for quarrels , when you are faine to fetch the popes infallibility out of our synode , whose flat decree it was of old : that euen general councels may erre , & haue erred : but wherin doth our facred synod assume this infallibility , in her determinations ? vvherefore is a synode , if not to determine ? but , of thinges reputed indifferent ? vvhat else are subiect to the constitutions of men ? good and euill are either directly , or by necessarie sequell ordered by god : these are aboue humane power . vvhat haue men to doe , if not with things indifferent ? all necessary thinges are determined by god indifferent by men from god , which are as so many particulars , extracts from the generals of god : these things ( saith learned caluin ) are indifferent , and in the power of the church : either you must allow the church this , or nothing . but these decrees are absolute , what lawes can be without a commaund ? the law that ties not , is no law : no more then that ( saith austen ) which tyes vs to euill . but for all men , and all times ? how for all ? for none ( i hope ) but our owne , and why not for them ? but without exception , and limitation : do not thus wrong our church : our late archbishopp ( if it were not piacular for you to reade ought of his ) could haue taught you in his publique writings , these fiue limitations of inioyned ceremonies : first , that they be not against the word of god : secondly , that iustification or remission of sinnes be not attributed to them : thirdly , that the church bee not troubled with their multitude : fourthly , that they be not decreede as necessary , and not to be changed : and lastly , that men be not so tyed to them , but that by occasion they may be omitted so it be without offence and contempt , you see our limits : but your feare is in this last , contrary to his . he stands vpon offence in omitting , you in vsing : as if it were a iust offence to displease a beholder , no offence to displease and violate authority : vvhat law could euer be made to offend none ? wise cato might haue taught you this , in liuie , that no lawe can bee commodious to all : those lippes which preserue knowledge , must impart so much of it to their hearers , as to preuent their offence : neither must law-giuers , euer fore-see what constructions will bee of their laws , but what ought to be : those thin●● which your consistory imposes , may you keepe them if you list ? is not the willing neglect of your owne parlor-decrees punished with excommunication ? and now what is all this to infallibilitie ? the sacred synod determines these indifferent rites for decency and comlinesse to be vsed of those , whom it concernes , therefore it arrogates to it selfe infallibilitie : a conclusion fit for a separatist . you stumble at the title of sacred : euery straw lies in your way ; your calepine could haue taught you ●hat houses , castles , religious businesses , olde age it selfe , haue this stile giuen them : and virgill ( vittasque resoluit , sacrati capitis ) no epithete is more ordinary to councelles and synods : the reason whereof may be fetched from that inscription of the elibertine synode ; of those nineteene bishops is said : vvhen the holy and religious bishops were set : how fewe councels haue not had this title ? to omit the late ; the holy synod of carthage , vnder anastasius : the holy and peaceable synode at antioch : the holy synode of god and apostolicall , at rome vnder iulius . the holy and great sinode at nice : and not to be endlesse : the holy synod of laodicea ( though but prouinciall ) . vvhat doe these idle exceptions argue but want of greater ? section . xxxiii . sinnes sold in our courts . some great men when they haue done ill , outface their shame with enacting lawes to make their sinnes lawfull . while you thus charge our practise , you bewray your owne : who hauing seperated from gods church , deuise slaunders to colour your sinne : wee must bee shamefull , that you may bee innocent : you load our ecclesiasticall consistories with a shameles reproach : farre bee it from vs to iustifie any mans personall sinnes ; yet it is safer sinning to the better part : fie on these odious comparisons : sinnes as saleable as at rome ? who knowes not that , to be the mart of all the world ? periuries , murders , treasons are there bought & sold : when euer in ours ? the popes cofers can easily confute you alone : what tell you vs of these , let me tell you : mony is as fit an aduocate in a consistory , as fauour or malice : these , some of yours haue complained of , as bitterly , as you of ours . as if we liked the abuses in courts : as if corrupt executions of wholesome lawes must be imputed to the church , whose wrongs they are . no lesse haynous , nor more true is that which followeth . true elders ( not yours ) should bee indeede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : this we call for , as vehemently ( not so tumultuously ) as your selues . that they should feede their flockes with word and doctrine , we require more then you : that patrons present , bishoppes institute , arch-deacons induct some , which are vnable , we graunt and bewaile : but that our church-lawes iustifie them , wee denie , and you slaunder ? for our law ( if you know not ) requires , that euery one to be admitted to the ministery , should vnderstand the articles of religion , not onely as they are compendiously set downe in the creede , but as they are at large in our booke of articles ; neither vnderstand them onely , but be able to proue them sufficiently out of the scripture , and that not in english onely , but in latine also : this competency would proue him ( for knowledge ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : if this be not performed , blame the persons , cleare the law . profound master hooker telles you , that both arguments from light of nature , lawes , and statutes of scripture , the canons that are taken out of ancient synodes , the decrees and constitutions of sincerest times , the sentences of all antiquity , and in a word , euery mans full consent and conscience , is against ignorance in them that haue charge and cure of soules . and in the same booke ; did any thing more aggrauate the crime of ieroboams apostasie , then that hee chose to haue his clergie the scumme and refuse of his whole land : let no man spare to te●l it them , they are not faithfull towards god ; that burden wilfully his church , with such swarmes of vnworthie creatures : neither is it long , since a zealous and learned sermon dedicated to our present lord arch-bishoppe by his owne chaplaine , hath no lesse taxed this abuse , whether of insufficiency , or negligence ( though with more discretion ) then can be expected from your malicious penne : learne henceforth not to diffuse crimes to the innocent . for the rest : your baal in our dispensations for pluralities , would thus pleade for himselfe : first hee would bidde you learne of your doctor to distinguish of sinnes : sinnes ( saith he ) are either controuertible , or manifest : if controuertible or doubtfull , men ought to bear one with anothers different iudgment ; if they doe not , &c. they sinne : such is this : if some be resolued , others doubt : and in whole volumes plead , whether conuenience , or necessity : how could your charity compare these with sinnes euicted ? secondly , he would tell you that these dispensations are intended and directed , not against the offence of god , but the danger of humane lawes : not securing from sinne , but from losse : but , for both these points of non-residence and insufficiency , if you sought not rather strife then satisfaction : his maiesties speech in the confer . at hampton court , might haue staied the course of your quarrelous pen : no reasonable minde , but would rest in that gratious and royall determination . lastly , why looke you not to your owne elders at home ? euen your handfull hath not auoided this crime of non-residency : what wonder is it , if our world of men haue not escaped ? section . xxxiiii . our loyaltie to princes cleared , theirs questioned . yov that confesse our wisedome and honesty , must now pleade for your owne : your hope is not more of vs , then our feare of you . to depose kings and dispose kingdomes is a proud worke : you want power , but what is your will ? for excommunication it is cleare enough : while you fully holde that euery priuate man hath as much power in this censure , as the pastor ; and that princes must bee equally subiect with them to these their censures : let any man now deuise , if the brownists could haue a king , how that king could stand one day vnexcommunicated ? or if this censure meddle onely with his soule , not with his scepter : how more then credible is it , that some of your assemblies in queene elizabeths daies concluded , that shee was not ( euen in our sense ) supreame head of the church , neither had authority to make lawes ecclesiasticall in the church : it is well if you wil disclaime it : but you know your receiued position ; that no one church is superior to other : no authority therefore can reuerse this decree ; your will may doe it : yea what better then rebellion appeares in your next clause ? while you accuse our loyaltie to an earthly king , as treasonable to the king of the church , christ iesus : if our loyaltie bee a sinne , where is yours ? if we be traytors in our obedience : what doe you make of him that commands it ? vvhether you would haue vs each man to play the rex , and erect a new gouernement , or whether you accuse vs as rebels to christ in obeying the old : god blesse king iames from such subiects . but whose is that so vnsauorie weede ; no bishoppe , no king ? know you whom you accuse ? let me shew you your aduersary ; it is king iames himselfe in his hampton conference : is there not now suspition in the word ? surely you had cause to feare that the king would proue no good subiect : belike , not to christ : vvhat doe you else in the next , but proclaime his opposition to the king of kings ? or ours in not opposing his ? as if we might say with the israelites . o lord our god , other lords besides thee haue ruled vs : if we would admit each of your elders to bee so many kings in the church , wee should stoope vnder christs ordinances : shewe vs your commission , and let it appeare , whether we be enemies , or you vsurpers ; alas , you both refuse the rule of his true deputy , and set vp false ; let this fearefull doome of christ light where it is most due : euen so let thine enemies perish o lord. section . xxxv . errours of free-will , &c. fained vpon the church of england . goe on to slaunder : euen that which you say you will not speake , you doe speake with much spight and no truth : vvhat hath our church to doe with errours of vniuersall grace or freewill : errors which her articles doe flatly oppose : what shamelesnesse is this ? is shee guilty euen of that which shee condemnes ? if some few priuate iudgements shall conceiue , or bring forth an error , shal the whole church doe penance ? would god that wicked and heretical anabaptisme , did not more growe vpon you then those errours vpon vs : you had more neede to defend , then accuse : but see christian reader , how this man dragges in crimes vpon vs , as cacus did his oxen : vve doe ( forsooth ) part stakes with god in our conuersion : wherein ? in a deuised ministery : the meanes of conuersion ; we ll fetch 't about : there may be a ministery without a conuersion ; and ( êconuerso ) there may be a conuersion without a ministery : vvhere now are the stakes parted ? yet thus we partstakes ( with the apostle ) that wee are gods fellow-labourers in this great worke : hee hath separated vs to it , & ioyned vs with him in it ; it is he ( as we haue proued ) that hath deuised our ministery : yea your selfe shall proue it : it is his peculiar to appoint the outward ministerie , that giues the inward grace . but hath not god giuen inward grace , by our outward ministery ? your hearts shall be our witnesses : what will follow therfore , but that our ministerie is his peculiar appointment ? section . xxxvi . kneeling at the sacrament of the lords supper . ovr kneeling you deriue ( like a good herald ) from the errour of transubstantiation : but to set downe the descent of this pedigree ; will trouble you : wee doe vtterly denie it , and challenge your proofe : how new a fiction transubstantiation is , appeares out of berengaries recantation to pope nicholas : the errour was then so young , it had not learned to speake ; shew vs the same noueltie in our kneeling : till of late men held not the bread to be god ; of old they haue held it sacred : this is the gesture of reuerence in our prayer at the receite , as master burgesse well interpreted it , not of idolatrous adoration of the bread . this was most-what in the eleuation : the abolishing wherof cleares vs of this imputation : you know we hate this conceit , why doe you thus force wrongs vpon the innocent ? neither are we alone in this vse : the church of bohemie allowes , and practises it : and why is this errour lesse palpable in the wafers of geneua ? if the king should offer vs his hand to kisse , we take it vpon our kneees : how much more when the king of heauen giues vs his sonne in these pledges ? but if there were not something more then iust reuerence , why do we solemnely kneel at the communion not at baptisme ? can you find no difference ? in this ( besides that there is both a more liuely and feeling signification of the thing represented ) we are the parties , but in the other , witnesses : this therefore i dare boldly say ; that if your partner m. smith should euer ( which god forbid ) perswade you to rebaptise , your fittest gesture ( or any others at full age ) would be to receiue that sacramentall water , kneeling : how glad you are to take all scraps , that fall from any of ours for your aduantage ? would to god this obseruation of your malitious gatherings would make all our reuerend bretheren w●ary of their censures : surely , no idolatry can be worse then that popish 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the bread , and the crucifixe , striue for the hier place ; if we should therefore be so tyed to kneele before the bread , as they are tyed to kneele before the crucifixe , their sentence were iust : they adore the crucifixe , not wee the bread ; they pray to the crucifixe , not we to the bread , they direct their deuotions ( at the best ) by the crucifixe to their sauiour , wee doe not so by the bread , wee kneele no more to the bread , then to the pulpit when we ioyne our prayers with the ministers : but our quarrell is not with them ; you that can approue their iudgments in dislike , might learne to followe them in approbation , and peaceable communion with the church : if there be a galled place you will be sure to light vpon that , your charitie is good : whatsoeuer your wisedome be . section . xxxvii . whether our ordinary and seruice-booke , be made idolles by vs. yet more idolatry ? and which is more , new , and strange ; such ( i dare say ) as wil neuer be found in the two first commandements , behold here two new idols , our ordinary , and our seruice-booke , a speaking idoll , and a written idoll . calecute hath one strange deity the diuell , siberia many , whose people worship euery day what they see first . rome hath many merry saints : but saint ordinary , and saint seruice-booke , were neuer heard of till your canonization . in earnest , doe you thinke wee make our ordinary an idoll ? what else ? you kneele deuoutly to him when you receiue either the oath or absolution . this must needs be religious adoration : is there no remedie ? you haue twise kneeled to our vice-chauncellour , when you were admitted to your degree ; you haue oft kneeled to your parents , and godfathers to receiue a blessing , did you make idols of them ? the partie to be ordained kneeles vnder the hand of the presbitery : dooth hee religiously adore them ? of olde they were wont to kisse the handes of these bishoppes , so they did to baal : god and our superiours haue had euer one and the same outward gesture : though here , not the agent is so much regarded ; as the action : if your ordinary would haue suffered you to haue done this peece of idolatrie , you had neuer separated . but the true god-bell and dragon of england is the humane-diuine-seruice-booke : let vs see what ashes or lumpes of pitch this daniel brings : wee worship god in and by it , as papists doe by their images : in deed we worship god in , and by the prayers contayned in it : why should we not ? tell mee why is it more idolatry for a man to worship god in , and by a praier read , or got by hart , then by a praier conceiued ? i vtter both , they are both mine , if the heart speake them both , feelingly and deuoutly , where lies the idoll ? in a conceiued prayer , is it not possible for a mans thought to stray from his tongue ? in a prayer learned by heart , or read , is it not possible for the heart to ioyne with the tongue ? if i pray therfore in spirit , and hartely vtter my desires to god , whether in mine owne wordes , or borrowed ( and so made mine ) what is the offence ? but ( say you ) if the lord iesus in his testament haue not commanded any such booke , it is accursed , and abhominable : but say i : if the lord iesus hath not any where forbidden such a booke , it is not accursed nor abhominable : shew vs the place where , that we may know it with you : nay , but i must shew you where the apostles vsed any such seruice-booke : shew you mee , where the apostles baptized in a basen : or where they receiued women to the lords table : ( for your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. cor. ii. will not serue ) shew me that the bible was distinguish't into chapters and verses in the apostles time : shewe mee that they euer celebrated the sacrament of the supper at any other time then euening , as your anabaptists now doe : shew me that they vsed one prayer before their sermons alwaies , another after , that they preached euer vpon a text : where they preached ouer a table : or lastly , shewe me where the apostles vsed that prayer which you made before your last prophecy ; and a thousand such circumstances , what an idle plea is this from the apostolike times ? and if i should tell you that saint peter celebrated with the lords prayer , you will not beleeue it : yet you know the historie . but let the reader know that your quarrell is not against the matter , but against the booke , not as they are prayers , but as stinted , or prescribed : wherein , all the world besides your selues are idolaters : behold all churches that were , or are , are partners with vs in this crime . oh idolatrous geneua , and all french , scottish , danish , dutch churches : all which both haue their set prayers with vs , and approue them . quod ad formulam , &c. as concerning a forme of pra●ers and rites ecclesiastical ( saith reuerend caluin ) : i do greatly allow that it should bee set and certaine , from which it should not bee lawfull for pastors in their function to depart . iudge now of the spirit of these bold controllers , that dare thus condemne all gods churches , through the world as idolatrous : but since you call for apostolike examples : did not the apostle paul vse one set forme of apprecations , of benedictions ? what were these but lesser prayers ? the quantitie varies not the kinde : will you haue yet auncienter precedents ? the priest was appointed of olde to vse a set forme vnder the law , num. 6. 23. so the people , deut. 26. 3. 4 , 5. &c. 15. both of them a stinted psalme for the sabboth , ps. 92. what saith your doctor to these ? because the lorde ( saith he ) gaue formes of prayers and psalmes , therefore the prelates may : can we thinke that ieroboam had so slender a reason for his calues ? marke ( good reader ) the shifts of these men : this aunswerer calles for examples , and will abide no stinting of prayers , because we shew no patternes from scripture : we do shew patternes from scripture , and now their doctor saith , god appointed it to them of olde , must we therefore doe it ? so , whether we bring examples or none , we are condemned : but mast. doctor , whom i beseech you should we follow , but god in his own seruices ? if god haue not appointed it , you crie out vpon inuentions : if god haue appointed it , 〈…〉 , we may not follow it : shew then where 〈…〉 inioyned an ordinary seruice to himselfe , that was not ceremoniall ( as this plainly is not ) : which should not be a direction for vs ? but if stinting our prayers be a fault ( for as yet you meddle not with our blasphemous collects ) it is well that the lords prayer it selfe beareth vs company , and is no small part of our idolatrie : vvhich , though it were giuen principally as a rule to our prayers , yet since the matter is so heauenly , a●d most wisely framed to the necessity of all christian hearts , to denie that it may be vsed intirely in our sauiours wordes , is no better then a fanaticall curiousnesse : yeelde one and all ; for if the matter be more diuine , yet the stint is no lesse faulty : this is not the lest part of our patcherie : except you vnrip this , the rest you cannot . but might not god be purely and perfectly worshipped without it ? tell mee , might not god bee purely and perfectly worshipped without churches , without houses , without garments , yea without handes or feete ? in a word , could not god bee purely worshipped , if you were not ? yet would you not seeme a superfluous creature : speake in your selfe : might not god be intirely worshipped with pure and holy worship , though there were no other bookes in the world , but the scripture ? if yea , as who can denie it , that knowes what the worshippe of god meaneth ? vvhat then doe the fathers and doctors , and learned interpreters ? to the fire with all those curious artes and volumes , as your predecessors called them : yea let me put you in minde , that god was purely and perfectly worshipped by the apostolicke church before euer 〈…〉 testament was written : see therefore the idlenesse of your proofes ; god may be serued without a prescription of prayer , but ( if all reformed churches in christendome erre not ) better with it : the word of god is perfect , and admits no addition : cursed were we , if we should add ought to it : cursed were that which should be added : but cursed be they that take ought from it , and dare say , ye shall not pray thus , ovr father , &c. doe we offer to make our prayers canonicall , do we obtrude them as parts of gods word ? vvhy cauill you thus ? vvhy doth the same prayer written adde to the worde , which spoken addeth not ? because conceiued prayer is commanded , not the other : but first , not your particular prayer : secondly , without mention either of conception , or memorie , god commaunds vs to pray in spirit , and with the heart : these circumstances onely as they are deduced from his generals , so are ours : but whence soeuer it please you to fetch our booke of publique prayer , from rome or hell ; or to what image soeuer you please to resemble it : let moderate spirits heare what the pretious iewell of england saith of it : vvee haue come as neere as we could to the church of the apostles , &c. neither onely haue we framed our doctrine , but also our sacraments , and the forme of publique prayers according to their rites and institutions . let no iewe now obiect swines-flesh to vs : hee is no iudicious man ( that i may omit the mention of cranmer , buc●r ridley , taylor , &c. some of whose handes were in it , all whose voices were for it ) with whome one iewell will not ouer-weigh tenne thousand separatists . section . xxxviii . marriage not made a sacrament by the church of england . how did confirmation escape this number ? how did ordination ? it was your ouer-sight , i feare , not your charity : some things seeme , and are not : such is this your number of our sacraments : you wil needes haue vs take in marriage into this ranke : why so ? wee doe not ( you confesse ) call it a sacrament as the vulgar , mis-interpreting pauls mysterium , ep. 5. why should we not if we so esteemed it ? wherefore serue names , but to denotate the nature of things ? if we were not ashamed of the opinion , wee could not be ashamed of the worde : no more ( say you ) did christ and his apostles call baptisme and the supper , sacraments ; but we doe , and you with vs : see now whether this clause doe not confute your last : where hath christ euer said , there are two sacraments ? yet you dare say so : what is this but in your sense an addition to the word : yea , we say flatly , there are but two : yet we doe ( you say ) in truth create it a sacrament : how oft , and how resolutely hath our church maintained against rome , that none but christ immediatly can create sacraments ? if they had this aduantage against vs , how could wee stand ? how wrongfull is this force , to fasten an opinion vpon our church which shee hath condemned ? but wherein stands this our creation ? it is true , the partyes to bee married , and their marriage represent christ , and his church , and their spirituall vnion : beware least you strike god through our sides : what hath gods spirit said , either lesse , or other then this ? ephe. 5. 25. 26. 27. & . 32. doth he not make christ the husband , the church his spouse ? doth he not from that sweet coniunction , and the effects of it : argue the deere respects that should bee in marriage ? or what doth the apostle allude elesewhere vnto , when he saies ( as moses of eue ) we are flesh of christs flesh , and bone of his bone ? and how famous amongst the ancient is that resemblance of eue taken out of adams side sleeping , to the church taken out of christs side sleeping on the crosse ? since marriage therefore so clearely represents this mistery : and this vse is holy and sacred : what error is it , to say that mariage is consecrated to this mistery ? but what is the element : the ring ; these things agree not ; you had before made the two parties to be the matter of this sacrament ? what is the matter of the sacrament , but the element ? if they be the matter , they are the element ; and so not the ring ; both cannot be ; if you will make the two parties to bee but the receiuers ; how doth all the mistery lie in their representation ? or if the ring bee the element , then all the mistery must be in the ring , not in the parties : labour to bee more perfect , ere you make any more newe sacraments : but this ring is laide vpon the seruice-booke : why not ? for readinesse , not for holinesse : nay , but it is hallowed ( you say ) by the booke : if it be a sacramentall element , it rather hallowes the booke , then the booke it : you are not mindful enough for this trade : but what exorcismes are vsed in this hallowing ? or who euer held it any other then a ciuill pledge of fidelitie ? then follow the wordes of consecration : i pray you , what difference is there betwixt hallowing , and consecration ? the ring was hallowed before by the booke ; now it must be consecrated : how idlely ? by what wordes ? in the name of the father , &c. these words you know are spoken after the ring is put on : was it euer heard of , that a sacramentall element was consecrated after it was applyed ? see how ill your slaunders are digested by you : the place is the church , the time the lords day , the minister is the actor , and is it not thus in all other reformed churches aswell as ours . behod , we are not alone : al churches in the world ( if this wil do it ) are guilty of three sacraments : tell me , would you not haue marriage solemnized publiquely ? you cannot mislike : though your founder seemes to require nothing here but notice giuen to witnesses , and then to bed : well , if publique ; you account it withall , a graue and weighty businesse : therefore such , as must be sanctified by publike prayer : what place is fitter for publicke prayer then the church ? who is fitter to offer vp the publike prayer , then the minister ? who should rather ioyne the parties in marriage , then the publique deputie of that god , who solemnly ioyned the first couple ? who rather then he which in the name of god may best blesse them ? the prayers which accompany this solemnity are parts of gods worshippe , not the contract it selfe : this is a mixt action , therefore compounded of ecclesiasticall and ciuill : imposed on the minister , not vpon necessity but expedience : neither essentiall to him , but accidentally , annexed , for greater conuenience . these two friuolous grounds haue made your cauill eyther very simple , or very wilfull . section . xxxix . commutation of penance in our church . see if this man be not hard driuen for accusations when hee is faine to repeate ouer the very same crime , which hee largely vrged before : all the world will know that you want variety , when you send in these twise-sodde coleworts : somewhat yet we finde new , commutation of penance ; our courts would tell you , that here is nothing dispensed with , but some ceremonie of shame in the confession : which in the greater sort is exchanged ( for a common benefit of the poore ) into a pecuniary mulct ; yet ( say they ) not so , as to abridge the church of her satisfaction , by the confession of the offender : and if you graunt the ceremony deuised by them , why doe you finde fault that it is altered , or commuted by them ? as for absolution , you haue a spight at it , because you sought it , and were repulsed : if the censures be but their owne ( so you hold ) why blame you the menaging of them in what manne● seemes best to the authors : this power is no more a limme of the prelacy , then our prelacy is that beast in the reuelation : and our prelacy holdes it selfe no more saint iohns beast , then it holds you saint pauls beast . phil. 3. 2 section . xl. oath ex officio . i aske of auricular confession ; you send mee to our high commission court : these two are much alike : but here is also very absolute necessity of confession : true ; but as in a case of iustice . not of strife to cleare a truth , not to obtaine absolution : to a bench of iudges , not to a priests eare ; here are too many ghostly fathers for an auricular confession : but you wil mistake ; it is enough against vs , that men are constrained in these courts to confesse against themselues : why name you these courts onely ? euen in others also oathes are vrged , not onely ( ex officio merclnario , but nobili ) : the honourablest court of starre-chamber giues an oath in a criminall case to the defendant ; so doth the chancerie , & court of requests : shortly to omit forraine examples how many instāces haue you of this like proceeding in the cōmon laws of this land ? but withal you might learn that no enquiry ex officio may be thus made but vpō good grounds , as fame , scandal , vehement presumption , &c. going before , and giuing iust cause of suspition : secondly , that this proceeding is not allowed in any case of crime , whereby the life , or limmes of the examined partie , may be endangered : nor yet , where there is a iust suspition of future periury vpon such inforcement : thus is the suspected wife vrged to cleare her honesty by oath : thus the master of the house must cleare his truth , exod. 22. 8. thus achan and ionathan are vrged to bee their owne accusers , though not by oath : but if perhappes any sinister course be taken by any corrupt iusticer in their proceedings : must this be imputed to the church ? look you to your petty-courts at home ; which some of your owne haue compared in these courses , not only to the commission-court of england , but to the inquisition of spaine : see there your pastor defending himselfe to be both an accuser and iudge in the same cause : see their proceedings ex officio without commission : and if your prisons cannot witnes it , your excommunications may . section . xli . holy-daies how obserued in the church of england . we haue not lost , but cast away the idolatrous shrines of saints : their daies wee retaine ; theirs , not for worshippe of them , which our church condemneth , but partly for commemoration of their high deserts , and excellent examples : partly for distinction : indeede therefore gods daies , not theirs : their praises redound to him : shew vs where we implore them , where wee consecrate daies to their seruice : the maine end of holy-daies is for the seruice of god , and some , as socrates sets downe of olde ( quo se a laborum contentione relaxent ) for relaxation from labor : if such daies may be appointed by the church ( as were the holy-daies of purim , of the dedication of the wall of ierusalem , the dedication of the temple ) whose names should they rather beare ( though but for mere distinction ) then the blessed apostles of christ : but this is a color only : for you equally condemne those daies of christs birth , ascension , circumcision , resurrection , annunciation , which the church hath beyond all memory celebrated : what then is our fault ? we keepe these holy as the lords daie : in the same manner , though not in the same degree : indeede , we come to the church , and worshippe the god of the martyrs and saints : is this yet our offence ? no : but wee abstayne from our most lawfull labor in them ; true , yet not in conscience of the day , but in obedience to the church : if the church shall indict a solemne fast : do not you hold it contemptuous to spend that day in lawful labour ; notwithstanding that liberty of the sixe daies which god hath giuen ? why shall that be lawfull in a case of deiection , which may not in praise and exultation ? if you had not loued to cauil , you would rather haue accepted the apologie , or excuse of our fister churches in this behalfe , then aggrauated these vncharitable pleas of your owne : yet euen in this your owne synagogue at amsterdame ( if we may beleeue your owne ) is not altogether guiltlesse : your handes are still and your shoppes shut vpon festiuall daies ; but we accuse you not : would god this were your worst : the masters of our courts would tell you , that they would not care so much for this dispossession , as that it should be done by such coniurers as your selfe . section . xlii . our approbation of an vnlearned ministery disproued . your want of quarrels makes you still runne ouer the same complaints : which if you redouble a thousand times will not become iust , may become tedious : god knowes how farre we are from approuing an vnleared ministery : the protestations of our gratious king , our bishoppes , our greatest patrons of conformity in their publique writings , might make you ashamed of this bold assertion : we do not allow that it should be , we bewaile that it will be : our number of parishes compared with our number of diuines , will soone shew , that either many parishes must haue none , or some diuines must haue manie congregations , or too many congregations must haue scarce diuine-incumbents : our dread soueraigne hath promised a medicine for this disease : but withall tels you that ierusalem was not built all on a day . the violence you speake of is commonly in case of wilful contempt , not of honest and peaceable desire of further instruction , or in supposall of some tolerable ability in the ministery forsaken : wee doe heartily pray for labourers into this haruest : we doe wish that all israell could prophesie : we publish the scriptures , we preach , catechize , write , and ( lorde thou knowest ) how manie of vs ▪ would doe more , if we knew what more could be done , for the information of thy people , and remedy of this ignorance which this aduersary reproues vs to approue . we doubt not but the seruice said in our parish-churches , is as good a seruice to god , as the extemporarie deuotions in your parlors : but it is an vnknowne deuotion , you say : through whose fault ? the readers , or the hearers , or the matter ? distinct reading you cannot denie to the most parishes : the matter , is easie praiers , and english scriptures : if the hearers be regardlesse , or in some things dull of conceite , lay the fault from the seruice to the men : all yours are free from ignorance , free from wandering conceits : we annoy you not , some knowledge is no better then some ignorance , and carelesnesse is no worse then mis-regard . section . xliii . penan●es inioyned in the church of england . comming now to the vaults of popery , i aske for their penances and purgatorie ; those popish penances , which presumptuous confessors inioyned as satisfactorie , and meritorious vpon their bold absolutions : you send me to sheet-penances and purse-penances , the one , ceremonious corrections of shame , inioyned and adioyned to publique confessions of vncleannes , for the abasing of the offender , and hate of the sinne : such like , as the auncient church thought good to vse for this purpose . hence they were appointed ( as tertullian speaketh ) in sackcloth and ashes , to craue the prayers of the church , to besmeare their body with filthynesse , to throwe themselues downe before gods minister , and altar ; not to mention other more harde , and perhaps , no lesse ancient rites ; and hence , were those fiue stations of the penitent , whereby hee was at last receiued into the body of his wonted communion : the other , a pecuniarie mulct imposed vpon some ( not all , you foulely slaunder vs ) lesse hainous offences ; as a penaltie , not as a penance ; i hope you denie not : sodomy , murther , robberie , and ( which you would not ) theft it selfe , is more deepely auenged : but did euer any of ours vrge either sheet or purse as the remedy of purgatory , or inioyne them , to auoide those infernall paines ? vnlesse we doe so , our penances are not popish , and our answerer is idle . section . xliiii . the practises of the church of england , concerning the funerals of the dead . your next accusation is more ingeniously malicious ; our doctrine you graunt contrarie to purgatorie : but you will fetch it out of our practise , that we may build that which we destroy : let vs therefore purge our selues from your purgatorie : wee absolue men dying excommunicate ; a rare practise , and which yet i haue not liued to see : but if law-makers contemne rare occurrents , surely accusers do not : once is too much of an euill : marke then , doe we absolue his soule after the departure ? no , what hath the body to doe with purgatorie ? yet for the body : doe we by any absolution seeke to quit it from sinne ? nothing lesse , reason it selfe giues vs that it is vncapable either of sinne or pardon ; to lye vnburied or to be buried vnseemely , is so much a punishment , that the heathens obiected it ( though vpon the hauocke and furie of warre ) to the christians : as an argument of gods neglect . all that authoritie can do to the dead rebell , is to put his carkasse to shame , and denie him the honour of seemely sepulture : thus doth the church to those which will die in wilfull contempt . those grecian virgines that feared not death , were yet restrained with the feare of shame after death : it was a reall not imaginarie curse of iezabel . the dogges shall eate iezabel . now the absolution ( as you call it , by an vnproper , but malicious name ) is nothing else , but a libertie giuen by the church ( vpon repentance signified of the fault of the late offender ) of all those externall rites of decent funerall : death it selfe is capable of inequalitie , and vnseemelinesse : suppose a iust excommunication : what reason is it , that he which in his life and death would be as a pagan , should be as a christian in his buriall ? what is any , or all this to purgatorie . the next intimation of our purgatorie , is our christian buriall , in the place , in the maner : the place holy ground , the church , church-yard , &c. the manner ringing , singing , praying ouer the corps . thus therefore you argue , we burie the body in the church , or church-yard , &c. therefore we hold a purgatorie of the soule ; a proofe not lesse strange then the opinion : we doe neither scorne the carkasses of our friends , as the old troglodites : nor with the olde egyptians respect them more , then when they were informed with a liuing soule : but we keepe a meane course betwixt both , vsing them as the remainders of dead men , yet as dead christians : and as those which we hope one day to see glorious : wee haue learned to call no place holy in it selfe ( since the temple ) but some more holy in their vse , then others . the old ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of the christians , wherein their bodies slept in peace , were not lesse esteemed of them , then they are scorned of you . galienus thought he did them a great fauour ( and so they tooke it ) when he gaue them the liberty not only of their churches , but of their former burying-places . in the same booke eusebius commends astyrius a noble senatour for his care , and cost of marinus his buriall . of all these rites of funerall , and choice of place , we professe to hold with augustine , that they are onely the comforts of the liuing , not helpes of the dead : yet as origen also teacheth vs , we haue learned to honour a reasonable ( much more a christian ) soule ; and to commit the instrument or case of it honourably to the graue . all this might haue taught our answerer , that wee make account of an heauen , of a resurrection ; not of a purgatory : but we ring hallowed belles for the soule : do not those belles hange in hallowed steeples too ? and do we not ring them with hallowed ropes ? what fancie is this ? if papists were so fond of olde : their folly and their belles ( for the most part ) are both out of date ; we call them soule-bels , for that they signifie the departure of the soule , not for that they helpe the passage of the soule . this is mere boyes-play : but wee pray over , or for the dead ; doe wee not sing to him also ? pardon me , i must needs tell you , here is much spight , and little wit. to pray for the consummation of the glorie of all gods elect : what is it , but thy kingdome come ? how vainely doe you seeke a knot in a rush , while you cauil at so holy a petition ? goe and learne how much better it is , to call them our brothers , which are not , in an harmelesse ouerweening , and ouer-hoping of charity : then to call them no brothers , which are in a proud and censorious vncharitablenesse : you cannot be content to tel an vntruth , but you must face it out : let any reader iudge how farre our practise in this , hath dissented from our doctrine ; would to god in nothing more : yes ( saith this good friend ) in the most other things ; our wordes professe , our deeds denie : at once you make vs hypocrites , and your selues pharises . let all the world know , that the english church at amsterdam professeth nothing which it practiseth not : we may not be so holy , or so happy . generality is a notable shelter of vntruth : manie moe , you say , popish deuises , yet name none , no , you cannot . aduanced aboue al that is called god ? surely this is a paradoxe of slaunders : you meant at once to shame vs with falshoode , and to appose vs with riddles : we say to the highest , whom haue wee in heauen but thee ? and for earth , your selfe haue granted we giue too much to princes , ( which are earthen gods ) and may come vnder pauls ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) . eyther name our deity , or craue mercy for your wrong : certainely , though you haue not remorse , yet you shall haue shame . section . xlv . the churches still retained in england . the maiesty of the romish petty-gods ( i truely told you ) was long agone with mythra and serapis , exposed to the laughter of the vulgar : you straine the comparison too farre ; yet we follow you : their priests were expelled : for ( as your doctor yeeldeth ) other actors came vpon the same stage : others in religion , else it had beene no change : their ministery and monuments exposed to vtter scorne : their masses , their oblations , their adorations , their inuocations , their anoylings , their exorcizings , their shrift their absolutions , their images , roode loftes , and whatsoeuer else of this kind : but the temples of those olde heathens were demolished and raced : here is the quarrell : ours stand still in their proude maiesty : can you see no difference betwixt our churches and their temples ? the very name it selfe ( if at least you haue vnderstood it ) kirke or church ( which is nothing but an abbreuiation of ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the lords house ) might haue taught you , that ours were dedicated to god , and theirs to the diuel , in their false gods : augustine answeres you , as directly , as if he were in my roome : the gentiles ( saith he ) to their gods erected temples , we not temples vnto our martyrs , as vnto gods , but memorials as vnto dead men , whose spirits with god are still liuing : these then if they were abused by popish idolatrie , is there no way , but downe with them , downe with them to the ground ? well fare the donatists yet , your olde friends ; they but washed the walles that were polluted by the orthodoxe . by the same token that optatus askes them , why they did not wash the bookes , which ours touched , and the heauens which they look't vpon : what , are the very stones sinfull ? what can be done with them ? the very earth where they should lie on heapes would be vncleane : but not their pollution angers you more , then their proud maiesty : what house can be too good for the maker of all things ? as god is not affected with state , so is he not delighted in basenesse . if the pompe of the temple were ceremoniall , yet it leaues this morality behinde it , that gods house should be decent , and what if goodly ? if we did put holines in the stones , as you doe vncleanenesse , it might be sinne to be costly : let mee tell you , there may bee as much pride in a clay wall as in a carued : proude maiestie is better then proud basenesse : the stone or clay will offend in neither , we may in both : if you loue cottages , the auncient christians with vs , loued to haue gods house stately , as appeares by the example of that worthie bishoppe of alexandria , and that gratious constantine , in whose daies these sacred piles began to lift vp their heads vnto this enuyed height : take you your owne choice , giue vs ours : let vs neither repine , nor scorne at each other . section . xlvi . the founders and furnitures of our churches . all this while i feared you had beene in popish idolatrie , now i finde you in heathenish : these our churches are still possessed by their flamins , and arch-flamins : i had thought none of our temples had beene so auncient : certainely i finde but one poore tuinous building , reported to haue worne out this long tyranny of time : for the most , you might haue read their age , and their founders in open records : but these were deriued from those : surely , the churches as much as the men : it is true , the flamins , and what euer other heathen priests , were put down , christian bishoppes were set vp : are these therfore deriued from those ? christianity came in the roome of iudaisme , was it therefore deriued from it ? before you tolde vs , that our prelacy came from that antichrist of rome , now from the flamins of the heathen : both no lesse , then either : if you cannot bee true , yet learne to be constant . but what meane you to charge our churches with carued and painted images ? it is wel you write to those that know them ; why did you not say wee bow our knees to them , and offer incense ? perhaps you haue espied , some old dustie statue in an obscure corner , couer'd ouer with cob-webs , with halfe a face , and that miserably blemished , or perhappes halfe a crucifixe inuerted in a church-window , and these you surely noted for english idols : no lesse dangerous glasse you might haue seene at geneua , a church that hates idolatrie , as much as you doe vs : what more ? massing copes and surplices : some copes ( if you will ) more surplices , no massing : search your bookes againe ; you shall finde albes in the masse , no surplices : as for organ-musicke , you should not haue fetch 't it from rome , but from ierusalem : in the reformed church at middleburgh , you might haue found this skirt of the harlot : which yet you grant at least crept out of babylon ; iudge now ( christian reader ) of the weight of these grand exceptions : and see whether ten thousand such were able to make vs no church , and argue vs not only in babilon , but to be babilon it selfe : thus babilonish we are to you , and thus sion-like to god : euerie true church is gods sion : euerie church that holdes the foundation is true , according to that golden rule , ephes. 2. 21. euery building that is coupled together in this corner stone , groweth vnto an holy temple in the lord : no aduersarie either man or diuell can confound vs , either in our euidences , or their owne challenges : wee may be faulty , but we are true : and if the darknes you finde in vs be light , how great is our light ? section . xlvii . on what ground separation or ceremonies was obiected . he that leaues the whole church in a grosse and wilfull error , is an hereticke ; he that leaues a particular church for appendances is a schismaticke : such are you , both in the action , and cause : the act is yeelded , the cause hath beene in part scanned , shall be more : this i vainely pretended , to be our consorting in ceremonies with the papists : behold here the groūd of your loude challenge of my ignorance : ignorance of your iudgement and practise : here is my abuse of you , of my reader : and , how durst i ? good words ( m. r. ) what i haue erred , i will confesse : i haue wronged you indeed : but in my charity : i knew the cause of brownisme , but i knew not you : for ( to say ingenuously ) i had heard and hoped , that your case had beene lesse desperate ; my intelligence was , that in dislike of these ceremonies obtruded , and an hopelesnes of future libertie , you and your fellowes had made a secession , rather then a separation from our church ; to a place , where you might haue scope to professe , and opportunity to inioy your owne conceites : whence it was , that i tearmed you ringleaders of the late separation , not followers of the first , and made your plea against our church , imperfection , not falshood : i hoped you , as not ours , so not theirs : not ours in place , so not quite theirs in pieuish opinion : i knew it to be no new thing for men inclining to these fancies , to beginne new churches at amsterdam , seuerall from the rest : witnesse the letters of some ( sometimes yours ) cited by your owne pastor : i knew the former separation , and hated it ; i hoped better of the latter separation and pittyed it : my knowledge both of * master smith whome you followed , and your selfe , would not let mee thinke of you , as you deserued : how durst i charge you with that , which perhaps you might disauow ? it was my charity therefore , that made my accusations easie : it is your vncharitablenes that accuses them of ignorance . i knew why a brownist is a true schismaticke ; i knew not you were so true a brownist . but why then did i write ? taking your seperation at best : i knew how iustly i might take occasion by it to disswade from seperation : to others good , though not to yours : now i know you better , or worse rather , i thinke you heare more : forgiue me my charity , and make the worst of my ignorance . i knew that this separation ( which now i know yours ) stands vpon foure grounds : as some beast vpon foure feete . first , god worshipped after a false manner , secondly , prophane multitude receiued , thirdly , antichristian ministery imposed , fourthly , subiection to antichristian gouernement : the ceremonies are but as some one paw in euery foote : yet if wee extend the word to the largest vse , diuiding all religion into ceremonie , and substance : i may yet , and do auerre , that your separation is meerely grounded vppon ceremonies . section . xlviii . estimation of ceremonies , and subiection to the prelates . and touching ceremonies ; you refused them formerly , but not long : and when you did refuse them , you knew not wherefore ; for immediately before your suspension , you acknowledged them to be things indifferent , and for matter of scandall by them you had not informed your selfe ( by your own confession ) of a whole quarter of a yeare after : why refused you then , but as the poet made his playes , to please the people , or as simon magus was baptized for company ? but refusing them , you submitted to the prelates spirituall iurisdiction : there was your crime ; this was your camell , the other your gnats : did euer any prelate challenge spirituall rule ouer your conscience ? this they all appropriate to the great bishoppe of our soules : and if other ; graunt them as your malice faineth : what sinne is it to be the subiect of a tyrant ? now vpon more grace , refusing the prelacy , you haue branded the ceremonies : so you did before your separation : tell vs how long was it after your suspension , and before your departure , that you could haue beene content ( vpon condition ) to haue worne this linnen badge of your man of sinne ? was not this your resolution , when you went from norwich to lincoln-shire , after your suspension ? denie it not ; my witnesses are too strong . but let vs take you as you are : these ceremonies , though too vile for you , yet are good enough for our ministers of england : as if you said , lord , i thanke thee , i am not as this publican : why , for our ministers ? because , those are the liueries , and these the sworne seruants of the antichristian bishoppes : we haue indeede sworne obedience to our ordinarie , in honest and lawfull commaundements , but seruice to christ : but dooth all obedience imply seruitude ? this obedience is , as to spirituall fathers , not to masters : yet so are wee the seruants of christ , that we are ready to giue our seruice to the least of his saints : thus vile will wee be for god : how much more to those whom god hath made ( as hierom saies ) principes ecclesiae : whiles they command for god : what doe we herein , but that which epiphanius vrged of olde against aerius ; what but the same which ignatius ( that holy and old martyr ) requires ( not once ) of all presbyters , and offers the ingagement of his owne soule for vs in this acte . as for our ceremonies , aggrauate them how you can for your aduantage , they are but ceremonies to vs : and such , as wherein we put no holinesse , but order , decency , conuenience : but they are preferred ( you say ) in our church , before the preaching of the gospell : a most wrongfull vntruth ; vvee holde preaching an essentiall part of gods seruice , ceremonies none at all : the gospell preached we holde the life and soule of the church , ceremonies eyther the garment , or the lace of the garment : the gospell preached we hold the foundation and vvals , ceremonies hardly so much as reede , or tile : but how then ( say you ) haue they ouerturned our best builders ? this is a word of rare fauor : i had thought you had held vs all ruiners , not builders : or if builders ; of babel , not of hierusalem : in which worke , the best builders are the worst . those whose hand hath beene in this act would tel you , that not so much the ceremonies are stood vpon , as obedience : if god please to trie adam but with an apple , it is enough : vvhat doe we quarrel at the value of the fruit , when we haue a prohibition ? shimei is slaine : what merely for going out of the citie ? the act was little , the bond was great : what is commaunded matters not so much , as by whom ; insult not , wee may thanke your outrage for this losse . for your retortion of my zoar and sodome : i can giue you leaue to be wittie , you vse it so seldome : but when you haue played with the allusion what you list , i must tell you that hee which will needes vrge a comparison to goe on foure feete , is not worthy to goe vpon two : zoar was neere to sodome , not part of it : zoar was reserued when sodome was destroyed : zoars neerenesse to the place where sodome stood , needed not haue giuen lot cause of remoueall . zoar might safely haue beene the harbour of lot : his feare was for want of faith : god promised him and the place security : the far-fetcht application therfore of the wickednesse of zoar to our ceremonies might wel haue been forborne and kept to your selfe : much lesse needed you ( like some anti lot ) to call for fire and brimstone from heauen vpon your zoar. section . xlix . the state of the temple , and of our church in resemblance . how you would haue behaued your selfe in the temple to the mony-changers : you will aunswer when we proue our church to be gods temple , built of that matter , and in that form which god hath prescribed : and here you send vs to 1. k. 5. 17. & 2. chr. 2. 8. ignorantly ; as if salomons temple had stood till christs time : when neither the first , nor second ( though called beth gnolam ) out lasted more then foure hundred yeares : or as if the market had beene vnder the very roofe of that temple : whether herods were built of the same matter with salomons , and in full corespondence to it , i dispute not : it was certainely dedicated to gods seruice , and that ( which you would hardly digest ) in a solemne anniuersary holy-day ; though not erected vpon the word of any prophet . but to let passe allegories : we must proue our selues the true church of god : thus we doe it : vve are true christians , for we were baptized into the name of christ ; we truely professe our continuance in the same faith , into which we were baptized : we ioyne together in the publique seruices of god : we maintain euery point of the most ancient creeds : wee ouerthrowe not the foundation by any consequence , therefore what euer is wanting to vs , what euer is superfluous , in spight of all the gates of hell , we are the true church of god. let me aske you : were not the people of the iewes in the prophets and in christs time a confused heape of dead and defiled , and ( for i will vse your tautologies ) polluted stones , and of all rubbish , of bryers and brambles of the vvildernesse , for the most part fitter for burning then building ? can we be worse then they ? if wickednesse can defile a church , they shal iustifie vs : did either those prophets or our sauiour , rather shewe their obedience to god in departing from it , then their valour in purging it : you haue well imitated these heauenly patternes , but what ? can your charity finde nothing but rubbish ? not one square stone , not one liuing ? you will bee iudging till god iudge you : if you take not heede of these courses , you will so runn with the hee goates , that you wil stand with the goates on the left hand : that god , whose place you haue vsurped , giue you more wisedome and loue . section . l. whether ministers should endure themselues silenced . the valour of our most zealous reformers hath truely shewed it selfe in yeeldance : as in duels , so here , he is the most valiant that can so master himselfe as not to fight : you according to the common opinion of swaggerers , blame the peaceable of cowardise , and accuse them of suffering . behold a newe crime : that they suffer themselues to be driuen out : vvhat should they haue done ? should they haue taken armes , and crie the sword of god , and gedion ? you that wil not allow a prince to compell subiects , vvill you allow subiects to compell princes ? god forbidde : this were high treason against gods annointed : what then ? should they approue the ceremonies by subscription , by practise ? this you exclaime vppon as high treason against the highest : vvhat yet more ? should they haue preached with their mouthes stop't ? this is it , which you haue learned of your founder , and through not many handes receiued , and required with no lesse violence : clamour and tumult is that you desire ; still let our sinne be peaceable obedience , yours fury and opposition your headstrong conceit is , that it is a sinne to be silenced : men must preach euen when they may not : all times , before you , would haue wondred at this paradoxe : for how euer the apostles , which had not their calling from men , would not be silenced by men , yet wee finde that all their successours held that those hands which were layd vpon their heads , might be laid vpon their mouthes : looke into all histories : those constitutions ( which though not apostolike ( yet were auncient ) in the seuenth canon punish a bishop or presbiter , that vpon pretence of religion separates from his wife , with deposition : and if any presbiter shall shift his charge without licence ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and lastly inflicts the same penalty vpon fornication , adulterie , periury . the great nicene councels take the same order with some misliked bishops , and presbiters in diuers canons : gaudentius in the councell of sardi , takes it for graunted , that a bishop may by bishops be deposed : so the second councell of carthage , can. 13. so the fourth councell of carthage more then once imposes degradation : so leo the first threats to put some offending persons from the office of their ministrie : so ( that i may not be endlesse ) blessed cyprian aduises rogatianus a good olde bishop , which was abused by a malapert deacon , by the authority of his chaire to right himselfe , and either to depose , or suspend the offender . leontius in socrates , is depriued of his priesthood : yea , what councell or father giues not both rules and instances , of this practise ? see how farre the auncient church was from these tumultuous fancies : no , no , ( m. r. ) we well finde , it is doing that vndoes the church , not suffering : if your fellowes could haue suffered more , and done lesse , the church had bin happy : as for our church officers , you may raile vpon them with a lawlesse safety : there is a great ditch betwixt you and them : else you might pay deare for this sinne of slandering them with their cheape peny-worths : how idly doe you insult ouer those , whom your mony-changers haue driuen out of their pulpits : when you confesse ( after all your valour ) that they haue driuen you both out of church and country : who can pitty a miserable insulter ? section . li. power of reforming abuses giuen to the church : and the issue of the neglect of it . you that can graunt there will be corruptions in all other churches , will endure none in ours : if england should haue either vnleauened wafers , or drunken loue-feasts ( though no other blemishes ) she could not but be babilon : wee enuie not your fauours : these , or whatsoeuer like enormities , christ hath giuen power vnto his church to reforme : but what if the church neglect to vse it ? what if those euils , which are brought in , by humane frailty , will not by diuine authority be purged out ? now the errour ( by your doctrine ) is growne fundamentall ; so christ is lost , and the foundation raced : if wee shall then assume ( against our friends , to conuince our enemies ) the church of geneua hath been seriously dealt with , in this corruption , and disswaded by vehement importunity , yet still persisteth : how can you free them , and charge vs ? see how we loue to be miserable , with cōpany . this power to purge out all corruptions , christ hath not giuen vs : if he hath giuē it you ; you must first begin to purge out your selues : you haue done it ; but still there remaine some : would god wee had as much execution as power : our church should be as cleane as yours is schismaticall : if you should measure faculties by their exercise : naturall rest should be the greatest enemie to vertue : and the solitarie christian should be miserable : this power of ours is not dead , but sleepeth : when it awaketh vnto more frequent vse , ( which we earnestly pray for ) looke you for the first handsell of it : none can be more worthy : as it is ; we offend not more in defect then you in excesse : of whom that your lazarello of amsterdam g. i. could say , that you haue excommunications as ready as a prelate hath a prison : christ is in many that feele him not ; but wee want not the power onely , but the presence of christ : how so ? he was with vs while you were here : did he depart with you ? will the separatists engrosse our sauiour to themselues , and ( as cyprian said of pupianus ) goe to heauen alone ? yea , confine the god of heauen to amsterdam ? what insolence in this ? we haue him in his word : wee haue him in his sacraments : we haue him in our hearts : we haue him in our profession , yet this enemie dare say we want him : wherein ? i suppose in our censures : vve haue peters keyes ( as his true successours both in office , and doctrine ) : our fault is ; that we vse them not , as you would : vvhat church doth so ? your first martyr doth as zealously inueigh against the practise of geneua , and all other reformed congregations in this point , as against vs : both for the wooden dagger ( as he termes it ) of suspension , and for their consistoriall excommunications : vvoe were to all the world , if christ should limit his presence onely to your fashions : heere you found him , and heere you left him : vvould to god wee did no more grieue him with our sinnes , then you please him in your presumptuous censures : in the rest you raile against our prelates and vs : can any man think that christ hath left peaceable spirits , to goe dwell with railers ? indeed , yours is free-hold : so you wold haue it : free from subiection , free from obedience : this is loosenesse , more then liberty : you haue broken the bonds , and cast the cordes from you : but you miscall our tenure : vve hate villenage no lesse then you hate peace ; and hold ( in capite ) of him , that is the head of his body , the church : vnder whose easie yoake wee doe willingly stoope in a sweet christian freedome ; abhorring , and reprouing ( and therefore notwithstanding our personall communion auoiding ) all abhominations : in these two respects therefore of our confusion , and bondage , wee haue well seene in this discourse , how iustly your sion accounts vs babylon : since it is apparent for the one , that here is neither confusion , nor babylonish , nor without separation : for the other , no bondage , no seruility : our prelats being our fathers , not our masters : and if lords for their external dignity , yet not lords of our faith : and if both these your respects were so , yet so long as we doe inviolably hold the foundation , both directly , and by necessary sequell : any railer may terme vs , but no seperatist shall proue vs babylon : you may flye whether you list : would god yet further , vnlesse you had more loue . section . lii . the view of the sinnes and disorders of others , whereupon obiected : and how farre it should affect vs. i neede no better analyser then your selfe , saue that you doe not onely resolue my parts , but adde more : whereas euery motion hath a double terme : from whence , and whither : both these could not but fall into our discourse ; hauing therefore formerly expostulated with you for your ( since you will so terme it ) impiety , in forsaking a ceremonious babylon of your owne making in england : i thought it not vnfit to compare your choice with your refusall : england with amsterdam , which it pleaseth you to intitle a substantiall babylon : impiety and madnes are titles of your owne choice , let your guiltinesse be your owne accuser : the truth is , my charity and your vncharitablenes haue caused vs to mistake each other : my charity thus : hearing both at middleburgh , and here , that certaine companies from the parts of nottingham and lincolne ( whose harbinger had beene newly in zeland before me ) meant to retyre themselues to amsterdam , for their full libertie , not for the full approbation of your church : not fauouring your maine opinions , but emulating your freedome in too much hate of our ceremonies , and too much accordance to some grounds of your hatred : i hoped you had beene one of their guides ; both because lincoln-shire was your country , and master smith your oracle , and generall : not daring therefore to charge you with perfect brownisme , what could i thinke might bee a greater motiue to this your supposed change , then the view of our ( so oft proclaimed ) wickednesse , and the hope of lesse cause of offence in those forraine parts : this i vrged , fearing to goe deeper then i might bee sure to warrant : now comes my charitable answerer , and imputes this easines of my challenge , to my ignorance ; and therefore will needes perswade his christian reader , that i knew nothing of the first separation , because i obiected so little to the second . it were strange if i should thinke , you gather churches there by town-rowes ( as we in england ) who know that some one prison might hold all your refined flocke : you gathered here by hedge-rowes ; but there it is easier to tell how you diuide , then how you gather : let your church be an intire body , inioying her owne spirituall communion , yet if it be not a corrasiue to your heart to conuerse in the same streetes , and to be ranged in the same towne-rowes with iewes , arians , anabaptists , &c. you are no whit of kinne to him , that vexed his righteous soule with the vncleanenesses of foule sodom . that good man had nothing but ciuill society with those impure neighbours : he differed from them in religion , in practise , yet could hee not so carelesly turne off this torment : his house was gods church ; wherein they had the spirituall communion of the saints : yet whiles the citie was so vncleane , his heart was vnquiet : we may ( you graunt ) haue ciuill society with ill men , spirituall communion onely with saints : those must be accounted the world , these onely the church : your owne allegations shall condemne you . they are not of the world ( saith christ ) as i am not of the world : both christ , and they were partes of the iewish church : the iewish church was not so sanctified , but the most were extreamely ▪ vncleane : therefore wee may bee partes of a visible vnsanctified church ; and yet be separate from the world . saint paul writes to his corinthians , sanctified in christ , saints by calling : true , but not long after , he can say , ye are yet carnall . in his second epistle : come out ( saith he ) from among them : but , from whom ? from infidels by profession , not corrupted christians . section . liii . the nearenesse of the state and church , and the great errours found by the separatists in the french and dutch churches . the church and state , if they be two , yet they are twins , and that so , as eithers euill proues mutuall : the sinnes of the citie not reformed , blemish the church ; where the church hath power and in a sort comprehends the state , she cannot wash her hands of tollerated disorders in the cōmon-wealth : hence is my comparison of the church ( if you could haue seene it , not the kingdome ) of england , with that of amsterdam : i doubt not , but you could be content to sing the old song of vs , bona terra , mala gens : our land you could like well , if you might be lordes alone , thankes be to god it likes not you , and iustly thinkes the meanest corner too good for so mutinous a generation : when it is weary of peace it will recall you : you that neither in prison , nor on the seas , nor in the coasts of virginea , nor in your way , nor in netherland could liue in peace , what shall we hope of your ease at home ? where ye are , all you thankful tenants cannot in a powerful christian state moue god to distinguish betwixt the knowen sinnes of the citie , and the church : how oft hath our gratious soueraigne , and how importunately beene solicited for a tolleration of religions ? it is pittie that the papists hyred not your aduocation : who in this pointe are those true cassanders , which reuerend caluin long since confuted : their wishes herein are yours : to our shame and their excuse : his christian heart held that tolleration vnchristian and intollerable , which you either neglect or magnifie : good constantine wink 't at it in his beginning , but as dauid at the house of zeruiah : succeeding times found these canaanites to be prickes and thornes , and therefore both by mulctes and banishments sought eyther their yeeldance or voydance . if your magistrates hauing once given their names to the church , indevour not to purge this augean stable ; how can you preferre their communion to ours ? but howsoeuer now , least we should thinke your land-lords haue too iust cause to pack you away for wranglers , you turne ouer all the blame from the church to the city ; yet your pastor and church haue so found the citie in the church , and branded it with so blacke markes , as that all your smooth extenuations cannot make it a lesse babylon then the church of england : beholde now by your owne confessions either amsterdam shall be , or england shall not be babylon : these eleuen crimes you haue found and proclaimed in those dutch and french churches : first , that the assembles are so contriued that the whole church comes not together in one : so that the ministers cannot together with the flock sanctifie the lords day ; the presence of the members of the church cannot be knowne , and finally no publique action , whether excommunication , or any other can rightly be performed . could you say worse of vs ? where neither sabboth can be rightly sanctified ; nor presence or absence knowne , nor any holy action rightly performed , what can there be but mere confusion ? secondly , that they baptise the seede of them who are no members of any visible church ; of whom moreouer they haue not care as of members , neither admit their parents to the lordes supper : mere babylonisme , and sinne in constitution , yea the same that makes vs no church : for what separation can there be in such admittance ? what other but a sinfull commixture ? how is the church of amsterdam now gathered from the world ? thirdly , that in the publique worshippe of god they haue deuised , and vsed another forme of prayer , besides that which christ our lord hath prescribed , mat. 6. reading out of a booke certain prayers inuented and imposed by man. beholde here our fellow idolaters : and ( as followes ) a daily sacrifice of a set seruice-booke , which in stead of the sweete incense of spirituall prayers is offered to god , very swines-flesh , a new por●uise , and an equal participation with vs of the curse of addition to the word . fourthly , that rule and commandement of christ , matth. 18. 15. they neither obserue , nor suffer rightly to be obserued among them . how oft haue you said that there can bee no sound church without this course , because no separation ? beholde the maine blemish of england in the face of amsterdam ! fiftly , that they worship god in the idoll temples of antichrist : so the wine is mar'd with the vessell , their seruice abhomination with ours : neyther doe these antichristian stones want all glorious ornaments of the romish harlot , yet more . sixtly , that their ministers haue their set maintenance after another manner then christ hath ordained , 1. chr. 14. and that also such , as by which any ministery at all , whether popish or other might bee maintained : either tithes , or as ill : beholde one of the maine arguments wherby our ministery is condemned as false and antichristian , falling heauie vppon our neighbours . seuenthly , that their elders change yearely , and do not continue in their office , according to the doctrine of the apostles and practise of the primitiue church : what can our church haue worse then false gouernours ? both annuall and perpetual they cannot be : vvhat is ( if not this ) a wrong in constitution ? eightly , that they celebrate mariage in the church , as if it were a part of the ecclesiasticall administration : a foule shame and sinne : and what better then our third sacrament ? ninthly , that they vse a new censure of suspension which christ hath not appointed : no lesse then english presumption . tenthly , that they obserue daies and times , consecrating certaine daies in the yeare to the natiuity , resurrection , ascension of christ : beholde their calender as truely possessed : two commaundements solemnely broken at once ; and we not idolaters alone . eleuenth , which is last and worst , that they receiue vnrepentant excommunicates to bee members of their church , which by this meanes becomes one one body with such as be deliuered vnto sathan ; therefore none of christs bodie : england can be but a miscelline rabble of prophane men ; the dutch and french churches are belike no better , who can be worse then an vnrepentant excommunicate ? goe now and say , it is the apostasie of antichrist to haue communion with the world in the holy things of god , which are the peculiars of the church , and cannot without great sacriledge be so prostituted and prophaned ; goe say , that the plaguy-spirituall-leprosie of sinne rising vp in the foreheads of many in that church , vnshut vp , vncouered ( yea wilfully let loose ) infects all both persons and things amongst them : goe now and flie out of this babylon also , as the hee-goates before the flocke , or returne to ours : but howeuer these errours bee grosse , perhappes they are tractable ; not the sinne vndoes the church , but obstinacy ; here is no euasion : for behold , you do no more accuse those churches of corruption , then of wilfulnesse : for diuers times haue you dealt with them about these fearefull enormities : yea you haue often de●ired , that knowledge thereof might be by themselues giuen to the whole body of their church , or that ( at least ) they would take order that it might be done by you : they haue refused both ; what remaines , but they be our fellow-heathens and publicanes ? and not they alone , but all reformed churches besides in christendome , which doe ioyntly partake in all these ( except one or two personall ) abhominations : will you neuer leaue til you haue wrangled your selues out of the world ? but now i feare i haue drawne you to say , that the hellish impieties both in the citie , and church of amsterdam are but frogges , lyce , flies , moraine and other egiptian plagues , not preiudicing your goshen : say so if you dare ; i feare they would soone make the ocean your redde sea , and virginia your wildernesse . the church is noahs arke , which gaue safetie to her guests , whereof ye are part ; but remember that it had vncleane beasts also , and some sauage : if the waues drowne you not , yet ( me thinkes ) you should complaine of noysome society : sathans throne could not preiudice the church of pergamus , but did not the balaamites ( the nicolaitanes ? ) yet their heauenly communion stood , and the angell is sent away with but threates . section . liiii . conuersation with the world . as it were madnesse to denie that the church should conuerse with the world in the affaires thereof : so to denie her communion in gods holy things , with any of those of the world , which professe christianity ( as yet vncensured ) is a point of anabaptisticall apostasie : such of the world are still of the church . as my censure cannot eiect them , so their sinne ( after my priuate endeuor of redresse ) cannot defile me : i speake of priuate communicants : if an vnbidden guest come with a ragged garment , and vnwashen hands , shall i forbeare gods heauenly dainties ? the master of the feast can say , friend , how cam'st thou in hither : not , friendes why came you hither with such a guest ? god biddes me come : he hath imposed this necessity , neuer allowed this excuse : my teeth shall not bee set on edge with the sower grapes of others : if the church cast not out the knowne vnworthy , the sinne is hers : if a man will come vnworthy , the sinne is his : but if i come not because he comes , the sinne is mine : i shall not answer for that others sinne : i shall answere for mine owne neglect : an other mans fault cannot dispence with my duetie . section . lv. the impure mixtures of the church of england . as there is no element which is not through many mixtures departed from the first simplicitie : so no church euer breathed in so pure an ayre , as that it might not iustly complaine of some thicke and vnwholsome euaporations of errour and sinne . if you challenge an immunity , you are herein the true broode of the auncient puritanes : but if too many sinnes in practise haue thickened the ayre of our church , yet not one heresie : that smoake of the bottomlesse pit hath neuer corrupted it : and therefore iustly may i auerre , that here you might drawe in the cleare ayre of the gospell : no wherevpon earth more freely : and if this be but the opinion of custome , you whom absence hath helped with a more nice and dainty sent , speake your worst : shew vs our heresies , and shame vs : you haue done it , and behold foure maine infections of our english ayre : the first , the smoake of our canons : wittily : i feare the great ordinances of the church , haue troubled you more with the blow , then the smoake : for you tell vs of their plantation against the kingdome of christ : what kingdome ? the visible church : which is that ? not the reformedst peece of ours , whole best are but goats and swine : not the close nicodemians of your owne sect amongst vs , which would be loath to be visible : not forrainers , to them they extend not : none therefore in all the world , but the english parlour-full at amsterdam : can there be any truer donatisme ? crie you still out of their poysoning the ayre : we hold it the best clensed by the batteries of your idle fancies , by ridding you from our ayre , and by making this your church inuisible to vs ; smart you thus , till we complaine . the second is the plague or leprosie of sinne vnshut vp and vncouered : wee knowe that sinne is as ill , as the diuill can make it , a most loathsome thing in the eies of god , and his angels , and saints : and we grant to our griefe that among so many millions of men , there may be found some thousands of lepers : good lawes and censures meete with some , others escape : it is not so much our fault , as our griefe : but that this leprosie infects all persons , and things , is shamefully ouer-reach't : plague and leprosie haue their limits , beyond which , is no contagion ; if a man come not neare them , if hee take the winde in an open ayre , they infect not : such is sinne : it can infect none but the guiltie : those which acte or assent to , or bear with it , or detest it not , are in this pollution : but those which can mourne for it , and cannot redresse it , are free from infection : how many foule lepers spiritually did our sauiour see in the publique ayre of the iewish church ? wherewith yet he ioyned , and his , not fearing infection so much , as gracing the remnants of their ruinous church : were those seuen thousand israelites whose knees bowed not to baal , infected with the idolatrie of their neighbours ? yet continued they still partes of the same church . but this yet exceedes : not onely all persons , but all thinges ? what ? our gospell ? our heauen , earth , sea ? our bookes ; coyne , commodities ? beholde , you see the same heauen with vs , you haue no bibles but ours : our ayre in his circular motion comes to bee yours : the water that washeth our iland , perhappes washeth your handes : our vncleane siluer ( i feare ) maintaines you : our commodities ( in parte ) inrich your land-lords : and yet all things amongst vs infected ? you are content to take some euil from your neighbors . the third is our blasting hierarchie , which suffers no good thing , ( that is no brownist , no singular fancy ) ( for what good things haue we but yours ? ) to grow , or prosper amongst vs , but withers all both budde and branch , would to god the root also : the last , is the daily sacrifice of a seruice-booke : an incense , how euer vnsauorie to you , yet such as all churches in christendome hold sweete , and offer vp as fitte for the nostrils of the almightie ; we are not alone thus tainted ; al christian churches that are , or haue bin , present the same censers vnto god : but ours smels strong of the popes portuise : see whether this be any better then triuiall cauilling : if either an ill man , or a diuill shall speake that which is good ; may not a good man vse it ? if a good angell , or man shall speake that which is euill , is it euer the better for the deliuerer ? if sathan himselfe shall say of christ ; thou art the sonne of the liuing god , shall i feare to repeate it ? not the authour but the matter , in these things is worthie of regard : as ierome speakes of the poysoned workes of origen , and other dangerous treatisours , good things may be receiued from ill handes ; if the matter of any prayer be popish , fault it for what it containes , not for whence it came : what say you against vs in this , more then master smith ( your stout anabaptist ) saith of our baptizing of infants : both of them equally condemned for antichristian : still therefore wee boast of the free , and cleare ayre of the gospell , if it be annoyed with some practicall euils , we may be foule , the gospel is it selfe , and our profession holy , neither can we complaine of all euils , while we want you . section . lvi . the iudgement of our owne , and our neighbours of our church . that which followeth is but wordes , a short answere is too much : that all christendome magnifies the worthinesse of our church , in so cleare euidences of their own voyces you cannot denie ; and now when you see such testimonies abroad ( lest you should say nothing ) you fetch cauils from home : those men which ( you say ) complaine so much of their miserable condition vnder the prelates impositions , haue notwithstanding with the same pens and tongues not onely iustified our church but extold it : you haue found no sharper aduersaries in this verie accusation , for which you malitiously cyte them : how freely , how sully haue they euinced the truth ? yea the happinesse of the church of england against your false challenges : and yet your forehead dare challenge them for authors : so hath their moderation opposed some appendances , that they haue both acknowledged and defended the substance with equall vehemence to your opposition : neither doe they suffer ( as you traduce them ) for seeking another church-gouernement : looke into the millenaries petition ( the common voyce of that part ) i am deceiued , if ought of their complaints sound that way , much lesse of their sufferings : deformitie in practise is obiected to them , not indeuour of innouation ; that quarrell hath beene long silent , your motion cannot reuiue it : would god you could as much follow those men in moderate and charitable carriage , as you haue out-run them in complaint . it pleaseth you to deuise vs , like pictures vpon course canuasse , which shew fairest at farthest ; attributing forraine approbation ( which you cannot denie ) to distance , more then to desert . how is it then , that ( besides strange witnesses ) we which looke vpon this face without preiudice , commend it ( god knowes ) without flatterie : we can at once acknowledge her infirmities , and blesse god for her graces : our neighbours , ( yea our selues ) of scotland , know our church so well , that they doe with one consent praise her for one of gods best daughters ; neither doe the most rigorous amongst them , more dislike our episcopall gouernement , then embrace our church : what fraud is this , to flie from the church in common , to one circumstance ? wee can honour that noble church in scotland , may we not dislike their alienations of church-liuings ? if one thing offend , doe all displease ? yet euen this gouernment , which you would haue them resist to bonds and banishment ( who knowes not ? ) begins to find both fauour and place : what choice other churches would make , as you doubt not , so you care not : if you regarded their sentence : how durst your reuile her as a false harlot , whom they honour as a deere sister ? if you were more theirs then we , you might vpbraide vs : now you tell vs what perhaps they would doe , we tell you what they doe , and will doe : euen with one voyce , blesse god for england , as the most famous and flourishing church in christendome : your handfull onely makes faces , and enuies this true glorie ; who yet ( you say ) despise not our graces , no more then we those of rome : see how you despise vs while you say , you are free from despight : how malicious is this comparison , as if we were to you , as rome to vs : and yet you despise vs more : wee graunt rome a true baptisme , true visibilitie of a church , though monstrously corrupted : you giue not vs so much : thankes be to god , wee care lesse for your censure , then you doe for our church : we haue by gods mercy the true and right vse of the word , and sacraments , and all other essentiall giftes and graces of god ; if there might bee some further helpes in execution , to make these more effectual , we resist not : but those your other imaginary ordinances , as wee haue not , so wee want not : neither the chaldeans , nor any idolatrous enemies could make sion babylon , nor the holy vessels prophane ; so as they should cease to be fitte for gods vse : but they were brought backe at the returne of the captiuitie to ierusalem : such were our worshippe , ministery , sacraments , and those manifold subiects of your cauils , which whiles you disgrace for their former abuse , you call our good euill , and willingly despise our graces . section . lvii . the issue of separation . all the sequell of my answerer is meerely sententious : it is fitter for vs to learne , then replie : where the truth gaines ( say you ) god looseth not ▪ i tell you againe , where god looseth , the truth gaineth not , and where the church looseth , god ( which indowed her ) cannot but loose : alas what can the truth either get or saue by such vnkinde quarrels ? surely suspicion on some handes , on others reiection : for ( as optatus of his donatists ) betwixt our licet , and your non licet many poore soules wauer and doubt : neither will settle , because wee agree not : thankes are not lost , where new fauours are called for , but where olde are denied , while your posie is : such as the mother such is the daughter ; where are our olde , our any mercies ? they are vnthankfull , which know what god hath done , and confesse it not : they are vnfaithfull to god and his deputie , which knowing themselues made to obey , presume to ouer-rule , and vpon their priuate authoritie , obtrude to the church those ordinances to bee obserued , which neuer had being but in their owne idle speculation . your sequestration and our confusion , are both of them beneficial , where they should not : and as you pretend our confusion for the cause of your separation ; so is your separation the true cause of too much trouble , and confusion in the church : your odious tale of commixture hath cloyed and surfeited your reader already , and receiued aunswere to satietie : this one dish so oft brought foorth , argues your pouertie : the visible church is gods drag-net , and field , and floore , and arke , here will be euer at her best , sedge , tares , chaffe , vncleane creatures : yet is this no pretence for her neglect : the notoriously euill she casts from her brest , and knee , denying them the vse of her prayers , and ( which your leaders mislike ) of her sacrament ; if diuers through corruption of vnfaithfull officers , escape censure ; yet let not the transgressions of some , redound to the condemnation of the whole church : in gods iudgement it shall not , wee care little , if in yours . wee tell wicked men , they may goe to hell-with the water of baptisme in their faces , with the church in their mouthes , we denounce gods iudgements vnpartially against their sinnes , and them : thus we flatter , thus wee deceiue , if yet they will needs run to perdition : perditio tua ex te israel . our clergie is so romish as our baptisme : if therefore romish , because they came thence , wee haue disproued it : if therefore romish because they haue beene vsed there , we graunt and iustifie it , that auncient confession of their faith which was famous thorough the world we receiue with them : if they hold one god , one baptisme , one heauen , one christ shall we renounce it ? why should wee not cast off our christendome and humanitie , because the romanes had both ? how much rome can either challenge , or hope to gaine in our clergie and ministration is well witnessed by the blood of those martyrs , eminent in the prelacie , which in the fresh memories of many was shed for god , against that harlot : and by the excellent labours of others , both bishops and doctors : whose learned pens haue pulled downe more of the wals of rome , then all the corner-creeping brownists in the world shall euer be able to doe , while amsterdam standeth . it is you that furnish these aduersaries with aduantages , through your wilfull diuisions : take scilurus his arrowes , single out of the sheafe , the least finger breakes them , while the whole bundle feares no stresse : wee know well where the blame is , our deseruings can be no protection to you : you went from vs , not we from you . plead not our constraint , you should not haue beene compelled to forsake vs , while christ is with vs : but who compels you not to call vs brethren ? to denie vs christians ? your zeale is so farre from iustifying the wicked , that it condemnes the righteous . section . lviii . the brownists scornefull opinion of our people . how scornefully doe you turne ouer our poore rude multitude , as if they were beasts not men ; or if men , not rude , but sauage : this contempt needed not : these sonnes of the earth may goe before you to heauen : indeed as it was of old said , that all egyptians were physitions : so may it now of you : all brownists are diuines , no separatist cannot prophesie : no sooner can they looke at the skirts of this hill , but they are rapt from the ordinary pitch of men : either this change is perhaps by some strange illumination , or else your learned paucitie got their skill amongst our rude and prophane multitude : we haue still many in our rude multitude , whom wee dare compare with your teachers : neither is there any so lewd and prophane that cannot pretend a scandall from your separation : euen these soules must be regarded ( though not by you . ) such were some of you , but ye are washed , &c. the wise hearted amongst vs doe more then suspect , find out our weakenesses , and bewaile them ; yet doe they not more discouer our imperfections then acknowledge our truth : if they bee truely wise , wee cannot suspect them , they cannot forsake vs : their charitie will couer , more then their wisdomes can discouer . section . lix . the conclusion from the fearefull answere of separation . my last threat , of the easier aunsweres of whoredomes , & adulteries then separation , you think to skoffe out of countenance . i feare your conscience will not alwayes allow this mirth ; our consistories haue spared you ynough : let those which haue tryed , say , whether your corrupt eldership be more safe iudges : if ours imprison iustly , yours excommunicate vniustly ; to be in custodie is lesse grieuous , then out of the church : at least , if your censures were worth any thing , but contempt : as hierom said of the like : it is well that malice hath not so great power as will : you shall one day ( i feare ) finde the consistorie of heauen more rigorous , if you wash not this wrong with your teares ; that tribunall shall find your confidence , presumption ; your zeale , furie : you are bold , surely more then wise : to proclame , we haue no need of such criers : doubtlesse your head hath made proclamations long , now your hand begins : what proclaime yee ? separation from the communion , gouernment , ministery and worship of the church of england : what needed it ? your act might haue saued your voice : what should our eyes and eares be troubled with one bad obiect ? but why separate you from these ? because they rise vp rebelliously against the scepter of christ : the scepter of christ is his word : he holdes it out , we touch and kisse it : what one sentence of it , doe we wilfully oppose ? away with these foolish impieties , you thrust a reed into your sauiors hand , & say , haile king of the iewes , and will needes perswade vs none but this is his rodde of iron : lastly , vpon what warrant ? of his will and testament : you may wrong vs ; but how dare you fasten your lies vpon your redeemer and iudge ? what clause of his hath bid you separate ? we haue the true copies . as we hope or desire to be saued , we can find no sentence that soundeth toward the fauour of this your act : must god be accused of your wilfulnesse ? before that god and his blessed angels , and saints , we feare not to protest that we are vndoubtedly perswaded , that whosoeuer wilfully forsakes the communion , gouernement , ministerie , or worshippe of the church of england are enemies to the scepter of christ , and rebels against his church and annointed : neither doubt we to say , that the mastershippe of the hospitall at norwich , or a lease from that citie ( sued for , with repulse ) might haue procured that this separation from the communion , gouernement , and worshippe of the church of england , should not haue beene made by iohn robinson . finis . a table of all the sections contained in this booke . the entrance into the worke . fol. 1. the answerers preamble . fol. 3. the parties written to , and their crime . fol. 6. the kindes of separation and which is iust . fol. 8. the antiquitie and examples of separation . fol. 12. what separation is to be made by churches in their planting , or restauration . fol. 16. what separation the church of england hath made . fo . 19 constitution of a church . fol. 21 order 2. part of constitution , how farre requisite , and whether hindred by constraint . fol. 23. constraint requisite . fol. 24 constitution of the church of england . fol. 26. the answerers title . fol. 31. the apostasie of the church of england . fol. 33. the separatists acknowledgements of the graces of the church of england . fol. 39. the vnnaturalnes of some principall separatists fol. 42. what the separatists thinke themselues beholden to the church of england for . fol. 44. the motherhood of the church of england , how farre it obligeth vs. fol. 45. the want of pretended ordinances of god , whether sinfull to vs : and whether they are to bee set vp without princes . fol. 48. the bonds of gods word vniustly pleaded by the separatists . fol. 51. the necessity of their pretended ordinances . fol. 52. the enormities of the church in common . fol. 55. the church of england is the spouse of christ. fol. 56. how the church of england hath separated from babylon . fol. 57. the separation made by our holy martyrs . fol. 62. what separation england hath made . fol. 63. the maine grounds of separation . fol. 65. the truth and warrant of the ministery of england . fol. 66. confused communion of the prophane . fol. 70. our errours intermingled with truth . fol. 71. whether our prelacie be antichristian . fol. 74. the iudgement and practise of other reformed churches . fol. 77. our synodes determination of things indifferent . fol. 78. sinnes sold in our courts . fol. 81. our loyaltie to princes cleared , theirs questioned . fol. 84. errours of free will , &c. fained vpon the church of england . fol. 86. kneeling at the sacrament of the lords supper . fol. 87. whether our ordinarie and seruice-booke , be made idols by vs. fol. 89. marriage not made a sacrament by the church of england . fol. 95. commutation of penance in our church . fol. 98. oath ex officio . fol. 99. holy-daies how obserued in the church of england . 100. our approbation of an vnlearned ministery disproued . fol. 102. penances inioyned in the church of england . fol. 103. the practises of the church of england , concerning the funerals of the dead . fol. 104. the churches still retained in england . fol. 108. the founders and furnitures of our churches . fol. 110. on what ground separation or ceremonies was obiected . fol. 112. estimation of ceremonies , and subiection to the prelates . fol. 114. the state of the temple , and of our church in resemblance . fol. 117. whether ministers should endure themselues silenced . fol. 119. power of reforming abuses giuen to the church : and the issue of the neglect of it . fol. 121. the view of the sinnes and disorders of others , wherupon obiected : and how farre it should affect vs. fol. 124. the nearenesse of the state and church , and the great errours found by the separatists in the french and dutch churches . fol. 127. conuersation with the world . fol. 132. the impure mixtures of the church of england . fo . 133. the iudgement of our owne , and our neighbours of our church . fol. 137. the issue of separation . fol. 140 the brownists scornefull opinion of our people . fol. 143. the conclusion from the fearefull aunswere of separation . fol. 144. errata . read welbeloueds for welbelouedst . epist pa. vlt. con●iction for coniunction . pag. 32. line 19. vncharitablenesse for vnchariblenesse . pag. 47. line 18. optat. lib. 3. for opt. lib. 30. marg . pag. 49. rules of christ , for rules christ. pag. 50. line 1. places ; onwards . for places onwards . pag. 66. line . 18. our ministerie for your ministerie . pag. 67. line 8. that houses for what houses pag. 80. line 16. waryof , for weary of , pag. 88. line 16. shrifte for strife . pa. 99. l. 12 enuie for annoy , pag. 103. line 13. ingenuously , for ingeniously , pag. 104. line . 19 which are ; in , for which are in , pag. 107. line 13. besides , many quotations in the margent , are misplaced ; the matter will leade the reader to the right place : the words of the aduersarie are onely those , which haue this note of sep. set before them . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a02522-e100 meam iniuriam patiētertuli impietatem contra spōsam christi ferre non potui . hier ad vigilant . notes for div a02522-e180 zach. 8. 19. matth. 18. 7. otho frising . ex philon. vr. chaldaeorum ruffiin . eccl●s . hist. l. 2. c. 26. dan. 3. vid. treatis of certain● godly minist . ag . barr. notes for div a02522-e310 1. retorted . s●p . it is a hard thing euen for sober minded men in cases of controuersie , to vse soberly the aduantages of the times : vpon which whilst men are mounted on high , they vse to behold such as they oppose too ouerlie , and not without contempt ; and so are oft times emboldened to roule vpon them as from aloft very weake and weightlesse discourses , thinking any sleight and slender opposition sufficient to oppresse those vnderlings , whom they haue ( as they suppose ) at so great an aduantage . vpon this very presumption it commeth to passe , that this author vndertaketh thus solemnly and seuerely to censure a cause , whereof ( as appeareth in the sequell of the discourse ) hee is vtterly ignorant : which had he beene but halfe so carefull to haue vnderstood , as hee hath beene forward to censure , hee would either haue beene ( i doubt not ) more equall towards it , or more weightie against it . * 2. confuted . * hier. marco . presbyt . de cauernis cellularum damnamus orbem ; in sacco & cinere volutati de episcopis sententiam ferimus : quid facit sub tunica paenitentis regius animus ? cypr. l. 3. ep. 9. haec sunt initia haereticorum , vt sibi placean : , vt praepositum superbo tumore contemnant . harison once theirs , in psal. 122. of brown. antichristian pride and bitternes . bredw . pref . m brinsly his pref . to the 2. part of the vvatch. optat. mil. de donat. collegae non eritis , si●o litis , fratres estis &c. disclaimed by themselues . answer against broughton page . 21. separat . schism . m. giff. an ignorant priest. barr. p. 64. confer . of d. and. & m. huchius . with barrow . m. spr. 3. 〈◊〉 . siderat . iren. l. 1. per singulos . dies nouum aliquod adsectant . &c. * bar. confer . with hutchins . fo . 1. browne estat● of true christians defence of true christians against the doct. of oxford . iohnson ( against iacob . ) passim . barr. against gyfford . sepa . as this epistle is come to mine hands , so i wish the answere of it may come to the hands of him that occasioned it : intreating the christian reader , in the name of the lord , vnpartially to behold without either preiudice of cause , or respect of person , what is written on both sides , and so from the court of a sound conscience to giue iust iudgement . notes for div a02522-e550 to m. smith and m. rob. ring-leaders of the late separation at amsterd . charact. of the beast , written by m. smith . pref. be it knowne therefore to all the separation , that we account them in respect of their constitution to be as very an harlot , as either her mother the church of england , or her grandmother rome is &c. iterato baptizatus scienter , it erato dominum crucifigit . de consecr . dist . 4. qui vis &c. * the crime of separation , how great . sep. the crime here obiected is separation , a thing very odious in the eyes of all them from whom it is made : as euermore casting vpon them the imputation of euill , whereof all men are impatient : and hence it commeth to pass● that the church of england can better brooke the vilest persons continuing communion with it , then any whomsoeuer separating from it , though vpon neuer so ▪ iust and well grounded reasons . vid. iohnson preface to his inquirie . esay . 5. 20. m. penry in his disc. of this subiect . num. 16 31. ●xod . 32. 30. prou. 21. 2. notes for div a02522-e720 sepa . and yet separation from the world , and so from the men of the world , and so from the prince of the world that raigneth in them , and so from whatsoeuer is contrarie to god , is the first steppe to our communion with god , and angels , and good men , as the first steppe to a ladder , is to leaue the earth . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . num. 18. 14 : num. 16. 9. deut. 10. 1. exod. 13. 12. leuit. 15. 21. deut. 4. 41. rom. 1. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1. thess. vlt. ad fin . iere. 15. 19. vide tremel ▪ & iun. num. 16. mat. 15. ad fin . 2. chro. 19 2. 1. cor. 6. ad fin . nulla cum malis conuivia vel colloquia misceantur , simusque ab ijs tam separati , quam sunt illi ab ecclesia dei profugi . cypr. l. 1. epist. ad cornel. 2. char act . of beast praef . iohns . inquir . ioh. 6. 68. h. cl. epistle before treatis of sinne ag . holy gh. neque propter paleam relinquim are am domini , neque propter pisces malos rumpimus retia domini . august . ep. 48. answ. counterpoyson p. 2. counter p. p. 7 & 8. &c notes for div a02522-e1110 sep. the separation we haue made in respect of our knowledge , and obedience , is indeed late , and new yet is it in the nature and causes thereof as auncient as the gospell , which was first founded in the enmity which god himselfe put betwixt the seede of the woman , and the seede of the serpent , gen. 3 , 15 ●useb : h●st eccl : hen : steph. ap●l . herod . fo● a●t & monum . h. n. his booke gal. 1. 6. eph. 6. 17. colos. 1 5. 1. tin. 1. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . sep. which enmity hath not onely beene successiuely continued , but also visibly manifested by the actuall separation of all true churches , from the world in their collection and constitution , before the law , vnder the law , and vnder the gospell , gen. 4 : 13 , 14 , 16 & 6. 1 , 2 , & 7 : 1 , 7. with 1 pet : 3 , 20 , 21 & 12. 2 i●● 20 , 24 , 26 neh : 9 , 2 ioh : 17 , 14 , 16 , act. 2 , 40 , & 19 , 9 , 1 : cor 6 , 17 : iren. de valentin . l. 1. ianumerabil● multitudin●m scripturarum quas ipsi sin●erunt afferunt ad stuporem insensatorum . vid. preface to master iacobs and iohnsons confer . & barr. pass . descript , of true visib . ch : nihil autem ●irum fi & ex ipsius instrumento a●tentur argumenta , cum oporteat haereses esse , quae esse non possent si non & perperam scripturae intelligi possent . tertull. de resur . ibid : so barrow tearmes mast. gyff . re●ut . p. 102. si christianus iudaicae praeuaricanti carnaliter coniungatur , a commumone ecclesiaesegregetur . dist. 28. q. 1 caue . & cap. si quis iudaicae , &c. 1. pet. 3. 19. 2. pet. 2. 5. notes for div a02522-e1590 sep. which separation the church of england neither hath made , nor doth make , but stands actually one with althat part of the world within the kingdom , without separation : for which cause amongst others , we haue chosen by the grace of god , rather to separate our selues to the lord from it , then with it from him , in the visible constitution of it . in his preface to the reader , and in his causes of separ defended p. 4 eiusdem p. 10 resutat . of m. gyff . p 22. & 2. transgress . p 51 , 52. & 55. 66 & 70. 85. & 86. &c. inconstanc● of brown p. ●o . inquiry into m. white , confessed by fr. iohnson p. 63. passag . 'twixt clifton and smith : and concerning the constitution of the churches , &c. but the constituting of churches now after the defection of antichrist may more properly be called a repairing then a constituting , &c. p. 60. psal . 106. matth. 23. reuel : 34. reuel . ● . 24. notes for div a02522-e1800 bar. p. 22. & 55. fr. iohns . ag . m. h. act. & mon. passim . troubl . and excom . pa. 191 m. spr. p. 1. fr. iun. lib. de eccles. ratihabitio retroha●● , &c. subsequens consensus iacob in leam fecit cos coniuges , d. 29. q 1. s. sed obijcitur barr. ag . gyff notes for div a02522-e1950 h. answ. counter p. p. 17● colos. 2. 5. tertull. de prescript . tu vt homo extrimsecus vitumquemque nosti , putas quod vides , vides autem quonsque oculos habes , sed oculi domini sunt alti , homo in faciem , deus in praecordiae contemplatur . principles & inferences concerning the visible ch. an. 1607 , p : 13 notes for div a02522-e2080 part of constitution , how farr requisite , and whether hindred by constraint . d. 〈…〉 brownists . brow● 〈◊〉 of true christians inquir into m. white . answ. ibid. arist. pol. 3 : c : 1. arist. pol : 3 : c. 1 : edesius & frumentius pueri a meropio tyrio-philosoph● in indian deportati , postea ibi christianam religionem plantarunt . ruffin . l. 1. ● 9. faemina i●ter iberos . notes for div a02522-e2210 2. chron. 33. 16 2. chr. 34. 32. 33 2. chron. ●5 . 13 : barr. ag . ciff . brow. reform . without . tarry : greene wood confer with cooper . brow. refor : without tar . confer . with d. and ▪ m. hutch ▪ confer . with d. an. refor . without tar . ber. fides suadenda non : cogenda . counterpois . dixit paterfamilias seruis quoscunque inueneritis , cogite intrare &c. aug. ●p . 48. pless . de eccles. c. 10 augustin . quod si cogiper legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisset , vos ipsi miseri 〈◊〉 nobis ad fidem purissimam cogi debuistis , sed absit a nostra conscientia , vt ad 〈…〉 . august . epist. 48. 〈◊〉 . 68. qui freneticum ligat , & qui 〈…〉 quod 〈◊〉 umus sanctum est . notes for div a02522-e2450 bar. and greenew . pas●im : h. answ . counterp . act & monum . edit . 5. p. 1180. counterp . 226. p. martyr . p. fagius . bucer . &c. sixe arti. 1547 pag. 1182. col. 2. 60. act. & . monum pag. 999. & 1000. act & monum edit . 5. p. 1002. bar. ag . gyff . conference . with sperin . & m. egerton . greenw . & bar. arg. to m. car. twr . m. trauers , m. chark . browne reform . without . tarrying . m. smith ag . r. clifton . principl . & i●fer . pag. 11. notes for div a02522-e2780 separ . to the title of ring-leader , wherewith it pleaseth this pistler to stile me , i answere that if the thing i haue done be good , it is good and commendable to haue beene forward in it ; if it be euill , let it be reproued by the light of gods word , and that god to whom i haue done that i haue done , will ( i doubt not ) giue me both to see , and to heale mine errour by speedy repentance : if i haue fledde away on foote , i shall returne on horse-backe : but as i durst neuer s●t foote into this way , but vpon a most sound and vnresist able conuiction of conscience by the word ier. 23. 32. ezech. 13. 2. of god ( as i was perswaded ) so must my retyring be wrought by more solide reasons from the same word then are to be found in a thousand such pretty pamphlets and formall flourishes as this is pro. 9. 21. notes for div a02522-e2950 separ . your pitying of vs , and sorrowing for vs , especially for the wrong , done by vs , were in you commendable affections , if by vs iustly occasio●ed ; but if your church bee deepelye drencht in apostacie , and you crie peace peace , when suddaine and certaine desolation is at hand , it is you that do wrong , though you make the complaint : and so being cruell towards your selues , & your owne , whome you flatter : you cannot be truely pitifull towards others whom you bewaile . a treatise of the ministery of england , against m. h pag. 125. h. amsworth in his fore-speech to his count. inqu . into vvh . tertul. l. de orat tert. l. de praescript . so de virginib , veland . that no contin●ance of time can prejudice t●uth . sime reprehendas errantem , patere me quae so errare cum talibus , aug. hi●r . fr. iohnsonin his an●w . to t. vvh p. 26. aunsw ag . broughton , p. 17 these dutch ch. offend not only in practicall disorders , but in their constitution , gouerament w●●sh p , &c. troubl . and excom . at amsterd . p. 10. brown charged with it by barr. letter . to m. egert . ● . iohnson ibid. p. 194. fr. iohnson inq. act. 15. 38. departing . ● . not going with them barr. pres. to the separation d●fend . in his obseruations p. 251. vve doe not there condemne the parish assemblies as separated from christ , but tr●ue them not as yet gathered to christ. so conser . ●●th sperin . p. 9. fr. iohnson . inquir . pag. 36. h. bar. obseruat . 242. no faults disanull the being of a church , vntill contempt of gods word be added thereunto after due conuiction ▪ the faults & errors of a church may be seuerely reproued and conuinced according to the quality thereof , and yet the church not be condemned . n. b. iob. ●4 . 19. vulg. edit . c●pr . epi ad cornel. non est maius pechcaatum quam apostat are a deo. aug. in ps. 18. prou. 6. 12. iob 34. 18. ezec 2. 3. apocal. 2. 3 , thou hast laboured , and not giuen in . tert●l . de pat , si hominibus pla●●t●r , dominus offenditur , sivero illud entimur & laboramus vt 〈◊〉 dco piacere , & 〈◊〉 & maledicta debemus humana contemnere . confessed by m. ioh●s . loc . seq . inq. of th. vvhite p. 65. gen 49. 7. sep. but i will not discourage you in this affection , least we find few in the same fault : the most in stead of pitty and compassion , affoording vs nothing but fury and indignation . cypr. de s●●●plic . prael . quid facit in corde christiano luporum seritas & canum rabies ? august . confess . l. 9. c. 9. qual●a solet eructare turgens indigesta discordia ? notes for div a02522-e3520 se● . the first action laid against vs , is of vnnaturalnes and ingratitude towards our mother the church of england , for our causelesse separation from her : to which vniust accusation , and triuiall querimony , our most iust defence hath beene , and is , that to our knowledge we haue done her no wrong : we do freely , and with all thankfulnesse acknowledge euery good thing she hath and which our selues haue there receiued . h. barr. praef. to the separ . defended , causes of separ . def . p. 12. confer . with d. andr. praef. to separ . def . gyff . refuted touch donat. obseruat . of m. h. bar. p. 239. fr. iohns . reas. 9 , ag . m. iac. p. 74. iohns . ag . m. iac. except . 3. nota bene. ibid. counterpoys . pag. 127. & 131. barr. confer . with m. sperm as bar hims hath written it . pag. 9 fr. iob. 7. reas. aga . iac p. 64. g. iohns . praef. to the pastor . notes for div a02522-e3740 russin . l. 2. eccl. hist. c , 3. aug. epist. & possid . in vita aug. euseb hist. eccl . damnis grauissimis & caedibus afficiebant , armati diuersis telis . socrates l. 2. c. 22. & 30. cypr. l. 2. ep. 8. nouati pater in vico fame mortuns nec postea ab illo sepultus . sic optat. l. 1. purpurus donatista occidit sororis filios &c. g. iohns . discourse of troubles and excommunications at amsterdam printed 1603 ibid. p. 5. discouery of brownisme . vid. g. iohns . booke . inq. into th. vvh . discou . same epist. p. 15 they say fi●●a ●ponsae . mihi accusatio etiam vera contra fratrem displ●cet hieron . aduersus ruffin . notes for div a02522-e3980 bar. exam . before the archb. and l. anderson browne state of christians d. 39 qui non habet quod det , quomodo det ? vox donat. opta . l. 1 barrow . supra . fr. ●●hns . ag . m. i●cob p. 41. 〈◊〉 . 2. sep. the superabundant grace of god couering and passing by the manifolde enormiti●s in that church wherewith these good things are inseparably commingled , and wherein we also through ignorance and infirmity were inwrapp ed. sep. but what thē ? should we still haue continued in sinne , that grace might haue abounded ? if god haue caused a further truth like a light in a darke place , to shine in our hearts , should wee still haue mingled that light with darkenesse , contrary to the lords owne practise ? ge. 1. 4. and expresse precept , 2. cor. 6. 14. gen. 1. 2. es. 5. 20. vvoe to them that put darknesse for light . es. 59. 9. notes for div a02522-e4170 deu. 21. 22 ▪ 23. sep. but the church of england ( say you ) is our mother , and so ought not to be auoided ▪ but say i , we must not so cleaue to holy mother church , as we neglect our heauenly father , and his commandements , which we know in that estate we could not but transgresse , and that heynously , and against our consciences , not onely in the want of many christian ordinances , to which we are most straightly bound , both by gods word and our owne necessities . mater ecclesia , mater est etiam matris nostrae . aug. ep. 38. notes for div a02522-e4270 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nemo per exteriorem violentiam corrumpitur : si interior innocentia custodiatur . c. ● . q. 3. custodi . &c. ad docendum populum israeliticum , omnipotens deus prophetis praeconium dedi ▪ , non regibus imperauit . aug. l. 2. contr . gau. c. 11. barr. causes of scpera , def . p. 6. brow. reform : without tarrying . aug. contr . petilia n. l. 2. optatus mileuit . lib. 3● barr. 2. exa●●i● nation before the l. archb. and l. chiefe-iustice . compar . with his reply to m. gyff . art. 5. ● sam. 24. 6. num. 16. 3. counter poys . p. 230. 2. chr. 13. 2. chr. 14. & 15 ▪ 2. chr. 29. 2. chr. 30. 2. chr. 34. ezr. 2. & 3. 2. ezr. 4. 23. 24 ▪ notes for div a02522-e4680 a august . ep. 58 ▪ pastores autem & doctores qu●s maxime vt discernerem voluisti eosdem puto esse sicut & tibi visum est , vt non alios pastores , alios doctores intelligeremus , sed ideo cum praedixisset pastores , subiunxisse doctores , vt intelligerent pastores ad officium suum pertinere doctrinam barr. ag . gyff . inueighs for this cause against the consistory of gene●a . fr ▪ iohns . complaints of the dutch and fr. churches . discription of a visible church , cannot make a distinct. in the definition of their offices . state of christians 119. descript. of vis . ch. h. clap. epist before his treatise of sinne ag : the holy ghost . brownists fourth position . trouble and ●xcom . at amsterdam . fr. iohns . in a letter to m. smith . notes for div a02522-e4800 nulla necessitas maior est charitate . h●eron . apol. ad ruff. fr. iun. de eccl. sed accidunt persaepe tempora quibus aut noua ecclesia generatur , aut altera pars interumpitur ( scilicet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) et tamen ecclesia esse non d●sinit , formà nimirum essentiali adhuc permanente . act 7. beg . cypr. l. 3. ep. 9. meminisse diaconi debent quoniam apostolos ( id est ) episcopos & praepositos dominus elegit , diaconos autem post ascensum domini in caelos apostoli sibi constituerunt episcopatus su & ecclesiae ministros . rom. 1. 8. 1. cor. 1. 5. 1. thess. 1. 7. gal ▪ 4. 15. phil. 1. 2. notes for div a02522-e4970 sep. but also in our most sinfull subiection to many antichristian enormities , which we are bound to eschue as hell . fr. iohns . ag . m. iacob . bar. gyff . refuted , i. transgress p. 28. notes for div a02522-e5060 sep. she is our mother ▪ o may she be , and yet not the lords wife , euery mother of children is not a wife . ammi and ruhae●ah were bidden to plead with their mother apostate israel , & plead that she was not the lords wife , nor he her husband . ho. 2. 1. 2. cypr. de simpli● . praelator , adulterari non potest sponsa christi , incorrupta est & pudica . 1. kin. 12. 29. hos. 2. 16. 2. 13. sep. and though you forbid vs a thousand times , yet must we plead : not to exccuse our fault , but to iustify our innocency : and that not only nor so much in respect of our selues , as of the truth which without sacriledge we maynot suffer to be condēned vnheard . and if you yet heare her not , rather blame yourselues as deafe , then vs as dumb . hierom. ad eustoch . epitaph paulae ex psal 67. august . contr . epist. parmen . li. 1. epistol . iuni. ad separ . notes for div a02522-e5270 giff. refut . 2. transg . sep. is not babylon the mother of gods people , whom he therefore commandeth to depart out of her , least being partakers of her sinnes , they also partake of her plagues . reuel . 18. 2. answ. for● speach to counter poys . sep. and to conclude , what say you more against vs , for your mother the church of england , then the papists do for their mother and your mothers mother , the church of rome , against you , whom they condemn as vn-naturall bastards and impious patricides in your separations from her , a simone zelota niceph. alij a ios. arimath , cuius hic sepulchrum cernitur . angli pascha graeco more celebrarunt . iacob armin. disp cant. 8. 8. fr. iun. lib ▪ sing . de eccle. phil. morn du plesses . lib. de eccles. cap. 10. counterp . p. 171. 1. p●nry . exam. before m. fanshaw & iust. yong. fr. iun. l. de eccles . m. hooker eccles. pol. du plesses . l. de eccl iacob . armin. disput . d. reynolds thes. d. feild of the ch. reuel . 3. & 2. notes for div a02522-e5530 sep. and were not luther , zuingli● cranmer , latimer and the rest begot to the lord in the wombe of the romish church , did they not receiue the knowledge of his truth when they stood actuall members of it ? whō notwithstanding afterwards they forsooke , and that iustly for her fornications . notes for div a02522-e5620 sep. but here in the name of the church of england , you wash your hands of all babylonish abominations , which you pretend you haue forsaken , and her for , and with them . and in this regard you speake thus : the reformation you haue made of the many and maine corruptions of the romish ch. we do ingenuously acknowledge , and de● withall imbrace with you all the truths which to our knowledge you haue receiued in stead of them ▪ but rome was not built all in a day . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hierom. apol. aduers. ruffi . 1. l. 1. ●tissa est mihi ●audatio tua , id est accusatio mea . bonum ex integra natura , malum ex singulari defectu . sep. the mistery of iniquity did aduance it selfe by degrees , and as the rise was , so must the fall be . that man of sinne , and lawlesse man , must languish and die away of a consumption . 2. thes. 2 8. and what though manie of the highest towers of babel , and of the strongest pillers also be demolished , & pulled down , yet may the building stand still , though tottering to and fro ( as it doth ) and only vnderpropped and vpheld with the shoulder and arme of flesh , without which in a very moment it would fall flat vpon , and lie leuell with the earth . notes for div a02522-e5780 bar. & gr. ag . giff. confer . & eam . passim , pe●●y in his exa . sep. you haue renounced many false doctrines in popery , and in theire plac●s embraced the truth . exod. 1. 2. 3. &c. ier. 20. 1. ier. 5. vlt. but what if this truth bee taught vnder the same hatefull prelacy , in the same deuised office of ministery : and confused communion of the prophane multitude , and that mingled with many greeuous errors . iohns . pres. to his 7. reas. iohns . 7. reas. p. 66. tit. 3. 4. psal. 69. 4. notes for div a02522-e5990 mat 28. 19. eph. 4. 11. 2 tim. 2. 2. 1 , tim. 3. 1. act. 13. 1. tim. 3. 9. 1. tim. 5. 22. 2 tim. 2. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . discourse of the trouble & excem . at amst. certaine arg. ag the com. with the minist . of england . counterpoys . vbires convenit quis non verba contemnat , ? august . de ordin . 2. brow. state of christians . notes for div a02522-e6200 perplexae sunt istae duae ( initates in hoc seculo inuicemque permixtae donec vltimo iudicto dirimantur . aug. de ciuit. d. l. 1. 33. eze. 18. 20. orig. vnusquisque propter proprium peccatum morietur , in proprid iusticiâ viuet , &c. fr. iohns . artic. ag . the dutch & fr. answ. ag . brough ton . discouer . of brown. troubles and excom . at amst. charact. pres . cypr. ep. 2. iidem in publico accusatores in occulto rei , in semetipsos censores pariter & nocentes : damnant foris , quod intus operantur , notes for div a02522-e6370 ●arr . conser . with m. hutchins . &c. & d. ●ndr . sep. shall some generall truth●s ( yea though few of them in the particulars may bee foundly practised ) sweeten and sanctifie the other errours ? doth not one heresie make an hereticke , and doth not a little leauen , whether in doctrine or manners le●uen the whol lumpe ? 1. cor. 5. 6. gal. 5 9. hag. 2 13. if antichrist held not many truthes , wherewith should he countenance so many forgeries , or how could his work be a mistery of iniquitie ? which in rome is more grosse , and palpable , but in england spun with a finer threed , and so more hardly discouered . but to wade no further in vniuersalities ; wee will take a little time to examine such particulars , as you your selfe haue picked out for your most aduantage , to see whether you bee so cleare of babels towers in your owne euidence , as you beare the world in hand . inquir . into m. white p. 35. mat. 13. 33. m. bredwell . hierom. in hoc ignoratis , quia malo exemplo possunt plurimi interire ? sed & per vnius delictum in omne populum indaeorum iram dei legimus adue nisse . 1. tim. 3. 16. notes for div a02522-e6530 sep. where ( say you ) are those proud towers of their vniuersall hierarchie ? one in lambeth , another in fulham , and wheresoeuer a pontificall : prelate is , or his chauncellor , commissary , or other subordinate , there is a tower of babel vnruinated . to this end i desire to know of you whether the office of arch-bishoppes , bishoppes , and the rest of that ranke , were not parts of that accursed hierarchie in queene maries dayes , and members of that man of sinne ? if they were then as shoulders and armes vnder that head the pope , and ouer the inferiour members ; and haue now the same ecclesiasticall iurisdiction deriued and continued vpon them , wherof they were possessed in the time of popery ( as it is plaine they haue by the first parliament of queene elizabeth ) why are they not still members of that body , though the head the pope be cut off ? 7. arg. 1. answ. counterpoys . character of the beast ag . r. clifton . arch-deacon . beatissimus papa passi●n in epist . ignat. ad trallian . euseb. l. 3. ex euseb. hier. catalog script . epiph. ●nio , &c. cal. instit l. 4. hieron . euagrio heming . potest . eccles. clas . 3. c. 10. hinc ecclesia purior secuta tempora apostolorum , fecit alios patriarchas , quorum erat curare vt episcupi cuiusque d●ocescos rite eligerentur , vt suum munus episcopi singuli probe administrarent &c. arist. pol. 7. potentia diuitiarum , & pauper tatis humilitas vel humiliorem vel inferiorem episcopum non facit . hieron . euagr. notes for div a02522-e7010 sep. and so do all the reformed churches in the world ( of whose testimony you boast so loud ) renounce the prelacy of england , as part of that pseudo-clergie , and antichristian hierarchie deriued from rome . answ. counterpoys . 3 consid. ps. 10. 7. bez. de ministr . euang. c. 18. cited also by d. down p. 29. heming . iudicat caeteros ministros suis episcopis obtem perare debere . potest . eccles. c. 10. notes for div a02522-e7160 article . 21 sep. infallibility of iudgement . it seemes the sacred ( so called ) synode , assumeth little lesse vnto her selfe in her determinations : otherwise , how durst she decree so absolutely as she doth touching things reputed indifferent , viz. that all men in all places must submit vnto them without exception , or limitation . except she could infallibly determine , that these her ceremonies thus absolutely imposed , should edifie all men at all times , how durst she thus impose them ? to exact obedience in and vnto them , whether they offend or offend not , whether they edifie or destroy , were intollerable presumption . obligatio fine coercione nalla . reg. iur. non iura dicenda sunt , &c. de ciuitat . l. 19. answ. to the admon . p. 279. cited also by d. sparkes . p. 14. aug. ep. 86. in his enim rebus , de quibus nih●● certi statuit scriptura diuina , mos populi dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt . li●ius decad. 4. l. 4. nulla lex satis commoda omnibus est , id ▪ modo quaeritur , si maiori parti & in summa prodest . cum consedissent sancti & religiosi episcopi . bin. tom. 1. p. 239. sancta synod . carthagi . 4. sub anastasio . 553. sancta & pacifica synod antiocben . 1. p. 420. sancta dei & apostolica synodus 413. peruenit ad sanctam synodum can . nic. 18. 309. sancta synod . la●dicena . 288. notes for div a02522-e7410 sep. dispensations with the lawes of god and sins of men . to let passe your ecclesiasticall consistories wherein sins and absolutions from them , are as venall and saleable as at rome . is it not a law of the eternall god , that the ministers of the gospell , the bishops or elders should be apt and able to teach ? 1. tim 3 ▪ 2. tit. 1. 9. and is it not their greeuous sin to be vnapt hereunto . esa 56. 10 11. and. yet who know-not that the patrons amongst you present , that the bishops institute , the archdeacons induct , the churces recei●e and the lawes both ciuill and ecclesiasticall allow and iustify ministers vnapt and v●able to teach . g. ioh. trou . and exco . at amste . insufficiency & 〈◊〉 reside●cy of ministers . insufficiency & non residency of ministers . sep. is it not a law of the eternall god that the elders should feede the flocke ouer which they are set , labouring amongst them in the word and doctrine ? act. 20. 28. 1. pet : 5. 1. 2. and is it not sinne to omit this duety ? can. 34. m. hooker 5. b. eccles. pol. pag. 26. 3. d. down . of the office and dignity of the mi●ist . dispensations for pluralities . sep. plead not for baall . your dispensations for non-residency & pluralities of benefices , as for two , three , or more ; yea tot quot , as many as a man will hau●e or can get are so many dispensations with the lawes of god , and sinnes of men . these things are too impious to be defended , and too manifest to be denyed . counterpoys . p. 179. dist. 34. can. lector . papa potest contra apostolum dispensare . & caus. 25. q. 1. can. sunt quidam . dispensatin euangelio &c. de concess . praebend . tit. 8. can. proposuit secundum plenitu● inem potestatis de iure possumus supra ius dispensare . & glossa paulo insr. papa contra apostolum dispensat . &c. sum. confer . p. 52. m. vvhites discou . notes for div a02522-e7720 bar. ag . gyff . inconst. of brow. p. 113 ibid. inquir . into th. vvhite . sep. disposition of kingdomes and deposition of princes . you are wiser and i hope honester then thus to attempt , thogh that receiued maxime amongst you no ceremony , no bishoppe ; no bishoppe , no king ; sauors too strongly of that weed ▪ but what though you be loyall to earthly kings and their crownes , and kingdomes , yet if you be traytors and rebels against the king of his church iesus christ , and the scepter of his kingdome , not suffering him y his lawes and officers to reigne ouer you , but in stead of them do stoupe to antichrist in his offices and ordinances : shall your loyaltie towards men excuse your treasons against the lord ? though you now crie neuer so lowd we haue no king , but caesar , ioh. 19. 15. yet is there an other king , one iesus , which shall returne , and passe a heauy doome vpon the rebellious , luc. 19. 27. these enemies which would not haue me reigne ouer them , bring them and slay them before me . p. 36. es. 36. 13. notes for div a02522-e7890 sep. parting stakes with god in con●ersion . not to speake of the errour of vniuersall grace , and consequently , of freewil that groweth on apace amongst you , what doe you else but put in for a part with god in conuersion though not through freedome of will , yet in a deuised ministery , the meanes of conuersion : it being the lords peculiar as well to appoint the outward ministery of conuersion , as to giue the inward grace . 1. cor. 3. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . notes for div a02522-e8000 de consecr . d. 2. ego bereng . apol. sep. where ( say you ) are those rotten heapes of transubstantiating of bread ? and where , say i , learned you your deuout kneeling to or before the bread , but from that error of transubstantiatiō ? yea what lesse can it insinuate , then eyther that , or some other the like idolatrous conceipt . if there were not something more in the bread and wine then in the water at baptisme , or in the word read or preached , why should such solemne kneeling be so seuerely pressed at that time , rather then vpon the other occasions : and well and truely haue your own men affirmed that it were farre lesse sinne , and appeareance of an idolatry that is nothing so grosse , to tye men in their prayers , to kneele before a crucifixe then before the bread and wine , and the reason followeth , for that , papists commit an idolatry farre ▪ more grosse and odious in worshipping the bread , then in worshipping any other of their images or idols whatsoeuer . apol of the min. of lincoln . dioc. part . 1. pag. 66. notes for div a02522-e8130 sep. adoring of images . to let passe your deuout kneeling vnto your ordinary when you take the oath of canonicall obedience , or receiue absolution at his hands , which ( as the maine actions are religious ) must needes be religious adoration , what is the adoring of your truely humane ( though called diuine ) seruice-booke in and by which you worship god , as the papists doe by their images ? if the lord iesus in his testament haue not commanded any such book , it is accursed and abhominable if you thinke he haue , shew vs the place where , that we may know it with you . or manyfest vnto vs that euer the apostles vsed themselues or commended to the churches after them any such seruice-booke . was not the lord in the apostles time , and apostolicke churches purely and perfectly worshipped , when the officers of the church in their ministration manifested the spririt of prayer which they had receiued according to the present necessities and occasions of the church , before the least parcell of this patchery came into the world . and might not the lord now be also purely and perfecty worshipped though this printed image , with the painted and carued images , were sent backe to rome , yea or cast to hell from whence both they and it came ? speake in your selfe , might not the lord be intirely worshipped with pure & holy worship , thogh none other book but the holy scriptures were brought into the church : if yea ( as who can deny it that knowes what the worship of god meaneth ) what then doth your seruice-booke there . the word of god is perfect and admitteth of none addition . cursed be he that addeth to the word of the lord , and cursed be that which is added , and so bee your great idoll the communion booke , though like nabuchadnezzars image some parte of the matter be gold and siluer , which is also so much the more detestable by how much it is the more highly aduanced amongst you . paulus . in vitae ambros. passag . twixt clifton an● smith . aegypti● vbi lautè epulati sunt , post caenam id faciunt . socr. l. 5. 21. platia . initio . caluin . ep. ad protect . angl. ep. 87. answ. to the minist . counterp 237. counterp 236. omnibus aricubus gr●gis ( id est ) apostolis suis dedit morem orandi , dimitte nob●s &c. aug. ep. 89. apolog. p. 170. accessimus &c. h bar. ag . gyff . notes for div a02522-e8480 sep. multitudes of sacraments . the number of sacraments seemes greater amongst you by one at the least , then christ hath left in his testament , and that is marriage ; which howsoeuer you doe not in expresse tearmes call a sacrament , ( no more did christ and the apostles call baptisme and the supper sacraments , ) yet do you in truth create it a sacrament , in the administration and vse of it . there are the parties to be married and their marriage , representing christ and his church , and their spirituall vnion : to which mysterie , saith the oracle of your seruice-booke expresly , god hath consecrated them : there is the ring hallowed by the said s●ruice-booke , ( whereon it must be laid ) for the element ; there are the wordes of consecration ; in the name of the father , and of the sonne , and of the holy ghost ; there is the place , the church ; the time vsually , the lords day ; the minister , the parish-priest . and being made as it is , a part of gods worship , and of the ministers office , what is it if it be not a sacrament ? it is no part of prayer , or preaching , and with a sacrament it hath the greatest consimilitude , but an idoll i am sure it is in the celebration of it , being made a ministeriall duty and part of gods worshippe , without warrant , call it by what name you will. br. state of christians . 172. notes for div a02522-e8620 sep. power of iudulgences . your court of faculties from whence your dispensations and tolerations for non-residencie , and plurality of benefices are had ▪ together with your commuting of penances and absoluing one man for another . take away this power frō the prelats & you main the beast in a lim . notes for div a02522-e8710 sep. necessity of confessions . in your high commission court very absolute , wher by the oath ex officio men are constrained to accuse themselues of such things as whereof no man will or can accuse thē ; what necessity is laid vpon men in this case , let your prisons witnes d. cosens his apol. d. andr. determ . de iure iurando 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . num. 5. 12. iosh. 7. 19. 1. sam. 14 43. g. iohns . & m. crud . trouble at amsterd p. 132. non potest quis in vna causa ●●dem momento duas portare personas , vt in eodem iudicio & accusator sit & i●dex . optat. mileuit . l. 7. notes for div a02522-e8920 sep. prosite of pilgr●mages . though you haue lost the shrines of saints , yet you reteine their daies and those holy as the lords day , and that with good profit to your spirituall carnall courts , from such as prophane them with the least & most lawfull labour , notwithstanding the libertie of the six daies labor , which the lord hath giuē : & as much would the masters of these courts be stirred at the casting of these saints daies out of the calender , as were the masters of the possessed maid , whē the spirit of diuinatiō was cast out of her , act. 16. 19. socr. l. 5. c. 21. est. 9. 17. nehem. 12. 27. 1. mac. 4 29. ioh. 10 23. august . ep. 44. sc●as a christianis catholicis n●llum col● mortuorum , nihil demque vt numen adorari quod sit factum & conditum a deo quae toto orbe terrarum , &c. sicuti quoque do●●ini passio & resurrectio & in caelum ascensus & aduentus spiritus sancti an niuersaria solemnitate celebrantur . aug. ep. 118. churches of fr. & flanders in harm . confes . th. vvhites discouer . p. 19. notes for div a02522-e9120 sep. constrained and approued ignorance . if an ignorant and vnpreaching ministery be approued amongst you , and the people constrained by all kinde of violence to submit vnto it , & therewith to rest ( as what is more vsuall throughout the whole kingdome ) then let no modest man once open his mouth to deny that ignorance is constrained and approued amongst you . confer . at hampt . english seruice . sep. vnknowne deuotion . if the seruice said or sung in the parish church may be called deuotion , then sure there is good store of vnknowne deuotion , the greatest part in most parishes , neither knowing nor regarding what is said , nor wherfore . notes for div a02522-e9250 sep. what are your sheete-penances for adulterie , and all your purse-penances for all other sins ? then which though some worse in poperie , yet none more cōmon . sacco & cineri incubare , corpus fordibus obscurare , presbyteris aduolui , & aris dei adganiculari . tert . de p●●it . can on . greg. neocaesar . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. notes for div a02522-e9360 sep. touching purgatory , though you deny the doctrine of it and teach the contrary , yet how wel your practise sutes with it , let it be considered in these particulars . your absoluing of men dying excommunicate after they bee dead , and before they may haue christian buriall . aug. de ciuitat . l. 1. athenienses decreuerunt ne siquis se intersecisset sepeliretur in agro attico . &c. sep. your christian buriall in holy ground ( if the party will bee at the charges ; ) your ringing of hallowed bels for the soule : your singing the corpes to the graue from the church style ; your praying ouer or for the dead especially in these words , that god wold hasten his kingdome , that we with this our brother ( though his life were neuer so wretched and death desperate ) and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation both in body and soule . sleeping-places caemiteria . euseb. l. 7. c. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 splendid ssimae sepulturae tradidit . eus. l. 7. c. 15 curatio funeris , conditio sepulturae , pompa exequiarum , magis sunt viuorum solatia quam subsidia mortuorum . aug. de ciuit l. 1. c. 12. si enim paterna vestis & annulus anto char . est posteris , nullo modo ipsa spernenda sunt corpora . aug de ciuit. l. 1. c. 13. orig. contr . cels. l. 8. rationolem animam honorare didicimus , &c. sep. your generall doctrines and your particular practises agree in this , as in the most other things , like harpe and harrow . in word you professe many truthes , which in deede you denie . these and many mo popish deuises ( by others at large discouered to the world ) both for pompe and profite , are not onely not rased and buried in the dust , but are aduanced amongst you , aboue all that is called god. notes for div a02522-e9730 sep. you are farre from doing to the romish idols , as was done to the aegyptian idols mythra and serapis , whole prie●●s were expelled their ministery and monuments exposed to vtter scorn and desolation , their temples demolished and raced to the very foundation . socrat. hist. eccles. l. 5. c. 16. 7. bed. h●st . eccl. l. 1. cit. gregor . ep. aug suoc . 30. & edilbe●toregi c. 32. contra sibi &c. sed & h●r●ticorū templa vastata a constantino . euseb. l. 3. c. 63. aug. de ciuit . l. 8 c. 27. hocker 5. b. c. 13 id aug. contr . max●min . arian . nonne sitemplum &c. optat. mileuit●n lib. 6. i. auistis proculdubi● pallas , iudicate quid de codic● bus secistis : aut vtr●mque lauate aut , &c. s● quod tangit aspectus lauandum est , vt parietes . &c. videmus rectum , videmus & coelū &c. haec a vobis lauari non possunt . athanas. apol. euseb. de vita const. otho fri●ing . l. ● . c. 3. notes for div a02522-e9970 sep. but your temples especially your cathedrall and mother churches stand still in their proude maiestie possessed by arch bishops , and lordbishops like the flamins and archssamins amongst the gentiles , from whom they were deriued lumb . lib. 4. d●st . 24. isid. l. 7. e●imol . cap 12 and furnished with all manner of pompous and superstitious monuments , as ●arued and paynted images , massing copes and surplices , chaunting and organ-musicke , and many other glorious ornaments of the romish harlot , by which her maiesty is commended to , and admired by the vulgar , so farr are you in these respects for being gon , or fl●d , yea or crept either , out of babylon . theuphilus ep●s● . cum ●aeteras s●●tuas deorum confi●ngeret , v●am integram seruari i●●sst . eamque in loco publico e●exit vt gentiles tempore progrediente non inficiarentur se ●umsm●di d●us col●sse . 〈◊〉 grammat● us hac dere valded scruciatus dixit grauem plagam religioni gr●corum inct●●●m , quod illa vna statcia no● euerteretur . socrat. l. 5. c. 16. sep. now if you be thus ▪ babylonish where you repute your selues most syonlike , and thus confounded in your owne euidence , what defence could you make in the things wherof an aduersary would challenge you : if your light be darkenesse , how great is your darknes ? notes for div a02522-e10080 sep. but for that not the separation but the cause makes the schismaticke ; and least you should seeme to speak euill of the thing you know not , and to condemne a cause vnheard , you lay downe in the next place the supposed cause of our separation , against which you deale as insufficiently . and that you pretend to bee , none other then your consorting with the papist in certaine ceremonies : touching which and our separation in regard of them thus you write . m. h. if you haue taken but the least knowledge of the grounds of our iudgement and practise , how dare you thus abuse both vs and the reader , as if the onely or chiefe groūd of our separatiō were your popish ceremonies ▪ but if you go only by guesse hauing neuer so much as read ouer one treatise published in our defēce , & yet stick not to passe this your censorious doom both vpon vs & it ; i leaue it to the reader to iudge whether you haue beene more lauish of your censure or credit . most vniust is the censure of a cause vnknowne , though in it selfe neuer so blame-worthy , which neuerthelesse may be prais-worthy , for ought he knowes that censures it . inq into m. vvhite . * vvhich vpon the lords prayer hath confuted some positions of that sect . bar. & . grecu● , passim . pen● . exam. notes for div a02522-e10200 sep. and touching the ceremonies here spoken of , howsoeuer we haue formerly refused them , submitting ( as all others did and d●e ) to the prelates spirituall iurisdiction , ( herein through ignorance strayning at gnats and swallowing camels ) yet are we verily perswaded of them , and so were before we separated , that they are but as leaues of that tree , and as badges of that man of sinne , whereof the pope is head , and the prelates shoulders . and so we for our parts see no reason why any of the bishops sworne seruants ( as all the ministers in the church of england are canonically ) should make nice to weare their lords liueryes . which ceremonies notwithstanding wee know wel enough , howsoeuer you for aduantage extenuate , and debase them vnto vs , to be aduanced , and preferred in your church , before the preaching of the gospell . 1. cor. 4. 1. hierom. in ps. 44. heming . class . 3 potest . eccles. c. 10. vtcuique suus clerus & sua plebs in his quae domini sunt , piè obsequerentur . ignat. epi. ad tarsens . sep. it is much that they being not so much as reede nor any part of the building ( as you pretend ) should ouerturne the best builders amongst you as they doe . sep. the proportion betwixt zoar & them holdes well : zoar was a neighbour vnto sodome both in place and sinne , and obnoxious to the same destruction with it : and it was ●ots errour to desire to haue it spared , gen. 19. 15 , 18 , 19 , 20 and so he neuer found rest nor peace in it , but forsooke it for feare of the same iust iudgement , which had ouertaken the rest of the cities , vers . 30. the application of this to your ceremonies i leaue to your selfe , and them to that destruction , to which they are deuoted by the lord. fidem domino habere debuerat quise cam seruaturum propter cumdixerat . mercer . in genes . notes for div a02522-e10490 sep. how we wold haue behaued our selues in the temple , where the mony-changers were , and they that solde doues , we shal answere you , when you proue your church to be the temple of god , compiled and built of spiritually-hewen and liuely stones 1. kin. 5. 17. 18 & 6. 7. 1. pet : 2. 5. and of the cedars , firs , and thyne trees of lebanon . 2. chr. 2. 8. framed and set together in that comely order which a greater then salomon hath prescri●ed : vnto which god hath promised his presence . but whilst we take it to be ( as it is ) a confused heape of dead and defiled , and polluted stones , and of all rubbish , of bryers and brambles of the wildernesse , for the most part , fitter for burning then building , we take our selues rather bound to shew our obedience in departing from it , then our valour in purging it , and to follow the prophets councel in flying out of babylon , as the hee goats before the flock , ie● . 50. 8 notes for div a02522-e10600 sep. and what i pray you is the valour which the best hearted and most zealous reformers amongst you , haue manifested in driuing out the mony-changers ? doth it not appeare in this , that they suffer ▪ themselues to be driuen out with the two stringed whippe of . ceremonies , and subscription , by the mony-changers , the chancellers and officials , which sell. sinnes like doues ; and by the chiefe priests the bishoppes which set them on worke ? so farre are the most zealous amongst you from driuing out the mony-changers , as they themselues are driuen out by them , because they will not change with them to the vtmost farthing . bar. refor , without tar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . vvee charge him not to serue any more . so can. 15. can. 25. cum compertū fuerit deponatur . can. 10. de clericatus honore periclitabitur . can. 2. e clero deponatur & sit alienus a canone . can. 17. et can. 18. a ministerio cessare debuerit concil . sardic . c. 4. cōcil . carth. 4. c. 48. & 56. 57. leo. ep. 1. sect. 5. cypr. l. 3. ep. 9. s●cr . l. 2. c. 21. notes for div a02522-e10810 bar ▪ ag . gyff p. 27. & 88. sep. for the wafers in geneua , and disorders in corinth , they were corruptions which may and doe ( or the like vnto them ) creep into the purest churches in the world : for the reformation wherof christ hath giuen his power vnto his church , that such euils as are brought in by humane frailty , may by diuine authority bee purged out . this power and presence of christ you want , holding all by homage ( or rather by vilenage ) vnder the prelates , vnto whose sinfull yoake you stoup in more then babylonish bondage , bearing and approuing by personall communion , infinite abhominations . troubl . & excom . at amsterd . an tu solus ecclesia es ? et qui te offenderit a christo excluditur . hieron . eriphan . cypr. solus in caelum ascend . pupianus ? et ad acesium nouatianum constant. erigito tibi scalam acesi , & ad caelum solus ascendito . socr. l. 1. c. 7. bar. gyff . ref . so some of their owne haue termed their excommunication . confess . by m. iohns . inqu . p. 65 col. 1. 18. sep. and in these two last respects principally , your babylonish confusion of all sorts of people in the body of your church , without separation , and your babylonish bondage vnder your spirituall lords the prelates , we account you babylon , and flie from you . amari parens & episcopus debet , non timeri . hier. ad theophilum . notes for div a02522-e11000 sep. m. h hauing formerly expostulated with vs our supposed impietie in forsaking a ceremonious babylon in england , proceeds in the next place to lay downe our madnesse in chusing a substantiall babylon in amsterdam : and if it be so found by due trial , as he suggesteth , it is hard to say , whether our impiety or madnes be the greater . sep. belike m. h. thinkes we gather churches here by towne-rowes , as they doe in england , and that all within the parish procession are of the same church . wherefore else tels hee vs of iewes , arrians , and anabaptists , with whom we haue nothing common but the streetes and market-place ? it i● the condition of the church to liue in the world , and to haue ciuill society with the men of this world , 1. cor. 5. 10. ioh. 17. 13. but what is this to that spirituall communion of the saints , in the fellowshippe of the gospell , wherin they are separated , and sanctified from the world vnto the lord ? ioh ▪ 17. 16. 1. cor. 1. 2. cor. 6. 17. 18. separation from the world , how required . ioh. 17. 16. 1. cor. 1. 2. 1. cor. 3. 3. notes for div a02522-e11170 sep. we indeed haue much wickednes in the citie where we liue ; you in the church . ●ut in earnest , doe you imagine we account the kingdome of england babylon , or the citie of amsterdam syon ▪ it is the church of england , or state ecclesiasticall , which we account babylon , and from which we withdraw in spirituall communion : ●ut for the common-wealth and kingdome , as we honor it aboue all the states in the world , so wold we thankfully embrace the meanest corner in it , at the extreamest conditions of any people in the kingdome ▪ cassand . de offic boni viri . bellar. de laicis euseb. in vita const. fr. iohns . articles ag . the fr● and dutch churches . bar. ag . gyss . counrtepoys . sep. the hellish impieties in the citie of amsterdam doe no more preiudice our heauenly communion in the church of christ , then the frogs , lyce , flyes , moraine , and other plagues ouerspreading egypt , did the israelites when goshen the portion of their inheritance was free exod 8. 19. nor then the deluge , wherewith the whole world was couered did noah , when he and his family were safe in the arke , gen. 7. nor then sathans throne did the church of pergamus being established in the same citie with it , re● . 2. 12 , 13. notes for div a02522-e11520 sep. it is 〈◊〉 will of god and of christ , that his church should abide in the world , and conuerse with it in the affaires therof which are common to both : but it is the apostasie of antichrist to haue communion with the vvorld in the holy things of god , which are the peculiars of the church , and cannot without great sacriledge be so prostituted and prophaned . duobus mod● non te ma●ulat malus , vid●licet si non consentis & si redarg●is d. 23. q. 4. a malis . notes for div a02522-e11590 sep. the ayre of the gospell which you draw in is nothing so free and cleare as you make shevv : it is only because you are vsed to it , that makes you so iudge . 1. canons . sep. the thicke smoake of your canons , especially of such as are planted against the kingdome of christ the visible church , and the administration of it , do both obscure and poyson the ayre , which you all draw in , and wherein you breath . 2. sinne vncensured . sep. the plaguy-spirituall-leprosie of sinne rising vp in the foreheads of so many thousands in the church , vnshut vp , vncouered , infects all both persons and things amongst you . leu. 13. 45. 46. 47. 2. cor . 6 , 17. certe nullius crimen maculat nescientem . aug. ep. 48. 1. reg. 19. 18. 3. heirarchy . sep. the blasting hierarchie suffers no good thing to grow , or prosper , but withers all both budde and branch . 4. seruice-booke . sep. the daily sacrifice of the seruice-booke which in stead of spirituall prayer sweete as incense , you offer vp morning and euening , smels so strong of the popes portuise , as it makes many hundreds amongst your selues stop their noses at it ; and yet you boast of the free and clear ayre of the gospell wherin you breath . patres nostri non solum ante cyprianum vel agrippinum , sed postea , saluberrimam consuetudinem tenuerunt , vt quicquid diuinum atque legitimum in aliqua haeresi vel schismate integrum reperirent approbarent potius quam negarent . august . notes for div a02522-e11880 sep. that all christendome should so magnifie your happinesse ( as you say ) is much , and yet your selues , and the best amongst you , complain so much both in word , and writing , of your miserable condition , vnder the imperious and superstitious impositions of the prelates , yea and suffer so much also vnder them , as at this day you do for seeking the same church-gouernment and ministery , which is in vse in all other churches saue your owne . socrat. l. 1. c. 4. constant. alex. & ario. ac tamet si vos inter vos vic●ssim de re qu●piam minimi momenti dissent●tis ( siquidem neque omnes de omnibus rebus idem sentimus nihilom●nus tan● fi●ri p●terit , vt eximia concordia sincerè inter vos , integr●que s●ru●tur , & vna inter omnes communio & consociatio custodiatur . sep. the truth is , you are best liked where you are worst knowen . your next neighbours of scotland know your bishops gouernment so well , as they rather chuse to vndergoe all the miserie , of bonds and banishment , then to partake with you in your happinesse this way , so highly doe they magnifie and applaud the same which choice i doubt not other churches also would make , if the same necessitie were laid vpon them . sep. and for your graces , we despise them not nor any good thing amongst you , no more then you doe such graces and good things as are to be found in the church of rome , from which you separate notwithstanding . we haue by gods mercie the pure and right vse of the good gifts and graces of god in christs ordinance which you want . neither the lords people , nor the holy vessels could make babylon syon , though both the one and the other were captiued for a time . lastly , it is thus written , and we thus aduised . m. smiths . retort vpon m. cliston . p. 50 , . notes for div a02522-e12010 sep. where the truth is a gayner , the lord ( which is truth ) cannot be a looser . neither is the thankes of ancient fauours lost amongst them , which still presse on towards new mercies . vnthankfull are they vnto the blessed maiestie of god , and vnfaithfull also , which inter licet vestrum & non licet nostrum , nutant ac remigant animae christianorum . optat contr . parm. sep. knowing the will of their master do it not , but go on p●esumptuously in disobedience to many the holy ordinances of the lord , and of his christ , which they know , and in word also acknowledge , he hath giuen to his church to be obserued , and not for idle speculation , and disputation without obedience . it is not by our sequestration , but by your confusion , that rome and hell gaines . sep. your odious commixture of all sorts of people in the body of your church , in whose lappe the vilest miscreants are dandled , sucking her brests , as her naturall children , and are be-blest by her ( as hauing right thereunto ) with all her holy things as prayer , sacraments , and other ceremonies , is that which aduantageth hell , in the finall obduration and perdition of the wicked , whom by these meanes you flatter and deceiue . non enim propter malos boni des●rendi , sed propter bonos mali tolerandi sunt , &c. sicut tolerau●runt prophetae &c. aug. ep. 48. bar. ag . gyff . sep. the romish prelacie and priesthood amongst you , with the appurtenances for their maintenance and ministrations are romes aduantage . which therefore she challengeth as her owne , and by which shee also still holdes possession amongst you , vnder the hope of regayning her full inheritance at one time or other . sep. and if the papists take aduantange at our condemnation of you , and separation from you : it concerns you , well to see where the blame is , and there to lay it , least through light , and inconsiderate iudgement , you iustifie the wicked , and condemne the righteous . notes for div a02522-e12270 sep. and for the suspition of the rude multitude , you need not much feare it . they will suspect nothing that comes vnder the kings broad seale : they are ignorant of this fault . though it were the masse that came with authoritie of the magistrate , they ( for the most part ) would be without suspition of it : so ignorant and prophane are they in the most places . 1 sam. 10. 10. it is the wise hearted amongst you that suspect your dealings , who will also suspect you yet more , as your vnfound dealing shall be further discouered . notes for div a02522-e12360 troub . & excom at amster . g. iohns . professes he found better dealing in the b●shops consistories ; and might haue found better in the inquisition . hieron . cypr. de simplic . praelat . ad pacis praemium ven●re non polerunt , qui pacem domini discordiae furore ruperunt . ibid. inexpiabilis & g●auis culpa discordiae nec passione purgatur . sep lastly the terr●ble threat you vtter against vs , that euen whoredomes and murders shall abide an easier answere then separation , would certainly fall heauy vpon vs , if this answere were to bee made in your consistory courts ; or before any of your ecclesiasticall iudges ; but because we know , that not antichrist , but christ shal be our iudge , we are hold vpon the warrant of his word and testament , ( which being sealed with his blood may not bee altered ) to proclaim to all the world separation frō whatsoeuer riseth vp rebelliously , against the scepter of his kingdome , as we are vndoubtedly perswaded , the communion , gouernment , ministery , and worship of the church of england doe . iohn robinson . a defence of the holy scriptures, worship, and ministerie, used in the christian churches separated from antichrist against the challenges, cavils and contradiction of m. smyth: in his book intituled the differences of the churches of the separation. hereunto are annexed a few observations upon some of m. smythes censures; in his answer made to m. bernard. by henry ainsworth, teacher of the english exiled church in amsterdam. ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622? 1609 approx. 363 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 70 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a13202 stc 235 estc s117973 99853182 99853182 18551 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a13202) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 18551) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 906:09) a defence of the holy scriptures, worship, and ministerie, used in the christian churches separated from antichrist against the challenges, cavils and contradiction of m. smyth: in his book intituled the differences of the churches of the separation. hereunto are annexed a few observations upon some of m. smythes censures; in his answer made to m. bernard. by henry ainsworth, teacher of the english exiled church in amsterdam. ainsworth, henry, 1571-1622? [4], 121 [i.e. 132] p. by giles thorp, imprinted at amsterdam : in the yere 1609. page 132 missing in number only. answers john smyth's "the differences of the churches of the seperation" (stc 22876). reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng smyth, john, d. 1612. -differences of the churches of the seperation. brownists -early works to 1800. 2005-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-04 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2005-04 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a defence of the holy scriptures , worship , and ministerie , used in the christian churches separated from antichrist : against the challenges , cavils and contradiction of m. smyth : in his book intituled the differences of the churches of the separation . hereunto are annexed a few observations upon some of m. smythes censures ; in his answer made to m. bernard . by henry ainsworth , teacher of the english exiled church in amsterdam . imprinted at amsterdam by giles thorp in the yere 1609. the chief things handled in this treatise . of worship . pag. 5. &c. the iewes worship scanned . pag. 11. &c. prophesying or preaching ; whither it be worship . pag. 16. &c. singing of psalmes , pag. 21. of scripture , or books in general . pag. 22. of the original scriptures . pag. 24. &c. the hand-writing of ordinances , coloss. 2. pag. 28. whither christ , luk. 4. ended the law of reading . p. 31. whither reading be the ministratiō of the letter . 2 cor. 3. pag. 32. of the law and gospel given in books & tongues . p. 37. of the cōmandements to read the scriptures . p. 39. 41. &c. of translations of holy scripture . pag. 45. &c. of the 72. interpreters in israel ; and whether they synned in translating the bible . pag. 51. &c. argumēts against the use of translations in gods worship , answered . pag. 57. &c. arguments for the use of translations ▪ &c. mainteyned . p. 69. &c. of the hellenists , or iewes that ●pake greek . p. 73. &c. of the ministerie and eldership . pag. 88. &c. reasons against 3. sorts of elders , refuted . pag. 89. &c. reasons for 3. sorts of elders , defended . pag. 97. &c. of the treasurie pag. 114. observations upon m. smythes censures , against church ▪ government by the eldership , pag. 118. &c. it is true of an haeretik which solomon sayth in parable , * a foolish woman is troublesome : experience hereof wee have in this adversary whom i deal against . for he not content to manifest with mouth , nor to write with pen , nor to print in publik once , his owne follyand shame , with calling vpon us to † justific our proceedings or repent of them ; dooth in an other book the second time “ require an answer , and fretting in himself that we passed over his vanitie with silence , he biddeth us battel with the third alarme in his book the character of the beast , lately published . wherin , ( to shew how near he is allyed to those which say , * who is like unto the beast , who is able to warr with him ? ) he † requireth , nay chargeth , yea challengeth us ( as he saith ) to the defense of our errors vawnting moreover against us , that we are guiltie in our consciences of our disabilitie to defend them , and therefore subtilly draw back and pretend excuses ; triumphing also over vs , as they that hitherto in craftines have withdrawn from the combat , in the matter of the translation , worship and presbyterie . thus hath he lifted up * his horne on high , and spoken with a stif neck ; as if even the mightie were “ afraid of his majestie , and for fear fainted in themselves . in regard of which insolencie ; all men i think may see , it is now time , if ever , to take up sheild and sword against him , and hew his hornes that so have pushed the flock of christ , wherof not long since he professed himself to be a member with us : though now having left the truth to folow leasing , he maketh open warr with the saincts . and wheras among other * swelling words of vanitie , he sayth , † loe we protest against them to have a false worship of reading books : we protest against them to have a false government of a triformed presbyterie ; we protest against them to have a false ministerie of doctors or teachers , &c. i have taken in hand to set forth our iust defense , in these particulars , and to shew the frawd and malignitie of this boaster : leaving the other point about the constitution of our church in baptising of infants , to others that have already begun to convince his heresie therin . and this which i have undertaken is rather for others ( who may be troubled with his writings ) then for his own sake , who yeeldeth smal hope of good , seing he procedeth so fast in evil ; and out of a “ proud hart hath stirred up strife . wherin also such hath been his ficklenes , as † no constancis is in his mouth . for ( not to speak of * three sundry books wherin he hath shewed himselfe of 3. several religions , ) in this one book which j deal against , he sayeth and unsayeth and contrarieth his own grounds for to shift and hide his blasphemies , that litle needed him so earnestly to have caled for an other mans sword to peirce the bowels of his errour ; when his own hand fighteth against himself , and the spear which he tosseth , turneth into his hart . i had much rather have folowed more cōfortable meditations , in the peaceable practise of the truth ; thē thus to cōtēd with those that seek strife , & that fight against the faith which themsevles once professed ; having found such by experience , to be above others , most malignant enemies : but truth oppugned , may not be for saken ; and † wolves that would ravin , must be beaten from the fold , least the sheep be devoured or scattered . now therefore i being to encounter this false prophet , doe humble my self under the good hand of god whose power is made perfect in mans infirmitie ; whose mercie susteyneth in violence of the enemie ; whose truth is a sheild and buckler . he blesse these my labours unto his people ; that * the righteous may see and reioyce , and all iniquitie may stop her mouth . amen . a defence of the holy scriptvres and worship of god , used in the christian churches of the separation : against the calumnies of m. smyth . the book intituled the differences of the churches of the separation , which we are chalenged by the author to answer : carieth in the very name therof , a delusion of the reader . for if he look for plaine differences , what they affirme and we deny ; he shal not find them expressed : if he take the differences to be implied , as that whatsoever mast. smyth affirmeth we deney , and what he deneyeth we affirme ; then is the reader much abused , & we injured ; who hold in that book , truth & error to be unequally mixed . seing then neyther expresly nor implicitly the reader can see the differences : what are they but delusions ? the many questions which he asketh in the end , conteyning the summe of al his book , manifest the authors frawd : for if he know & dare say wherin we differ , what need he desire our direct answer ? it became him to refute , & not for to fish with hooks of demands , wherin we would differ from him . ther was one onely difference between m. smyth and us , when first he began to quarrel ; though synce he have increast them , and increaseth dayly , with deadly feud and open opposition , as al men may see . that difference was this . he with his followers breaking off cōmunion with us , charged us with synn for using our english bibles in the worship of god ; & he thought that the teachers should bring the originals the hebrew and greek , and out of them translate by voice . his principal reason against our translated scripture was this . no apocrypha writing , but onely the canonical scriptures , are to be used in the church , in time of gods worship . every written translation is an apocrypha writing , & is not canonical scripture . therfore every written translation is unlawful in the church in time of gods worship . why he counted every translation apocrypha , and what he meant therby , appeareth by these words of his ‡ a written translation ( sayth he ) or interpretation is as wel & as much an human writing , as an homilie or prayer , written & read . the like impietie he hath also printed in his book , saying a translation being the work of a mens wit & learning , is as much and as truly an humane writing , as the apocrypha ( so commonly called ) writings are , and seeing it hath not the allowance of holy men inspired , but is of an hidden authoritie , it may be iustly called apocrypha &c. and therfore not to be brought into the worship of god to be read . that this point of the translation was the onely difference , as it is known to al that then heard his publik protestatiō ; so his words in writing shew it . ‡ translations written ( sayth he ) are not refreyned in the case of scandal , for we desired that they might be refreined for our sakes , that we might keep communion , & it would not be yeilded . so if we would have layd aside our translated bibles , communion ( they say ) should have been kept with us . now for the true differences on our part , at that time and stil , they are thus . we agree with m. smyth herein , that onely canonical scripture is to be used in gods worship ; & that no apocryphal writing is to be used in gods worship . but we disagree & deney , that every written translation is an apocryphal writing ; affirming that the scriptures in english and other languages , rightly translated out of the originals , are canonical ; & so to be read in the church in the worship of god. after much time spent about this controversie , he manifested other differences , touching the ministerie and treasurie ; and soon after published this book of differences : wherin , having his latter thoughts ( as he thought ) better then his former , he † retracted a former book of principles &c , and al other his writings , so farr forth as they were overthwarted by this his last book . he also acknowledged the * ancient brethren of the separation ( as he calleth us ) are to be honoured , that they have reduced the church , to the true primitive and apostolik constitution , which consisteth in these three things , 1 the true matter , which are saincts onely , 2 the true forme , which is the uniting of them togither in the covenant . 3 the true propertie , which is a communion in al the holy things , and the power of our lord iesus christ , for the mainteyning of that communion . to this blessed work of the lord wherin those ancient brethren have laboured , i know not ( sayth he ) what may more be added , i think rather there can nothing be added . and was he now setled in his course ? nothing lesse , for the strange womans * pathes are moveable , they cannot be known . soon after this god stroke him with blindnes , that he could no longer find the door of the church , out of which he was gone by schisme , and which he had assaulted with error . our entring in by the covenant of god with † abraham to the faithful and their seed , hath been as a brazen wal , whereagainst he hath runn himself , to his utter ruine , if god in mercie raise him not up . and now as a man benummed in mynd , he cryeth out against us , contrary to his former fayth and confession ; * loe , we protest against them ( sayth he ) to bee a false church , falsly constituted in the baptising of infants , and their own unbaptised estate . and agayn , we protest against them , that seeing their constitution is false ; therfore there is no one ordinance of the lord true among them . thus † wine sheweth it self in m. smyth to be a mocker , & strong drink to be raging : whiles he having drunk † the wine of violence proclaymeth open warr , against gods everlasting covenant . the defense of which grace , being already in the hands of two worthy soldiers of christ , mr clifton whom he hath printed against , and mr robinson , whom he next threatneth : i leave vnto them ; not doubting but god their strength , will * teach their hands , to fight , and their fingers to battel , in so good a cause against this enemie . but because he still vrgeth his former quarrels of the scriptures and ministerie : i purpose with gods grace to set against him in these ; desiring the lord my rock , to † gird me with strength , and to make my way entyre . touching the first , namely , the vse of translated scriptures in the worship of god : m. smyth thus summeth vp the difference , in the forefront of his book . 1. we hold ( saith he ) that the worship of the new testament properly so called , is spirituall , proceeding originally from the hart : and that ▪ reading out of a book ( though a lawful ecclesiasticall action , ) is no part of spiritual worship : but rather the invention of the man of syn , it being substituted for a part of spiritual worship . 2. we hold that seing prophesying is a part of spirituall worship : therefore in time of prophesying it is vnlawfull to have the book as a help before the eye . 3. we hold that seing singing a psalm is a part of spirituall worship ; therefore it is vnlawful , to have the book before the ey , in time of singing a psalm . here first let the reader observe , that the mayn and true difference which was between m. smyth and us , about the translation , is not mentioned : but is brought in after , as by the way , in hādling these matters ; and other points never controverted between vs , are made heads of the differences . in which doing , m. smyth hath graced the very portch of his building , with imposture and frawd . 2. in saying , of himself and his brethrē , we hold &c. he giveth the reader to vnderstand , ( vnlesse he meant to delude him , ) that they whom he dealeth against , hold the cōtrary : wheras he neither dooth , nor is able to produce any proof hereof against us ; neyther ( i dare say ) can he tel what we hold , of these points . thus secondeth he his fraud with injurie ; and maketh these two , as iachin & boaz , the pillars for to bewtifie the temple of his book . now because his whol battel against the translated scriptures , is cheefly out of this bulwark of spiritual worship , wherin he hath intrenched himself , and flyeth therto at al assayes , when other shifts fayle him : i wil begin with it , as himself also dooth , and come to translations anon . of worship . wheras the word worship is diversly used , somtime more largely , somtime more straightly ; by reason wherof it hath not at al tymes a like proper signification : m. smyth spying this , ( as by his limitation of properly so called may appear ; ) takes advantage to himself for to bolster out his former blasphemies , & to deal against us for idolaters , & the holy bible for an idol ; under the aequivocatiō or double meaning of this word worship ; restreyning it wher he should not , & inlarging it where he ought not . and though he treateth of this thing at large , handling the fountaine , the helps , the essence or nature , with the parts and kinds of worship : yet the divers use of the word which was needful first to be shewed , ( if he meant not to deceiv , ) he hath quite omitted ; that , therfore i wil first manifest . worship , in our english tongue , and as it is used to expresse the original scriptures , is diversly taken . somtime largely , as when it expresseth the greek word latreuo ; as philip. 3 , 3. we ar the circumcision which † worship god in the spirit : & act. 24 , 14. so ” worship i the god of my fathers . and thus both the english & greek answereth to the hebrew ghnabad , which properly signifieth to serve , exod. 3 , 12. deut. 10 , 12 , 2 sam. 15 , 8. also when it expresseth the greek word sebomai ; as act. 18 , 13. to * worship god contrary to the law ; & act. 18 , 7 , iustus a ‡ worshipper of god. and so both it & the greek answer to the hebrew jaré ; which properly signifieth to fear or reverence , as mat. 15 , 9. in vaine they ” worship me ; for that which in hebrue is , their fear towards me isa 29 , 13. so * iob. and ionas , as the hebrew sayth , feared , as the greek translateth , worshipped god. also when it interpreteth the greek word threskeuo , as col. 2 , 18. the worshipping of angels ; and vers . 23. in wil-worship ; or voluntary religion . thus worship is largely used , for the feare and service of god , or any religious action . more strictly and properly , worship is vsed to english the greeke word proskuneo ; as mat. 2. 2. we are come to † worship him ; and rev. 11. 16. they ” worshipped god ; rev. 13. 4. they ” worshipped the dragon , &c. and so both it and the greek word , doe expresse the hebrue hishtachavah , which properly signifieth to bow downe or prostrate ones self . exod. 20. 5. thus the worship of god generally , comprehendeth the performing of all duties required in the first * table of the law : specially and properly , to worship is to bow downe & supplicate vnto god. the meaning of the word being thus distinguished ; let vs now see how m. smyth dooth deal in the point . he , where he † professeth to handle the nature or essence of spiritual worship , and the essentiall causes and kindes thereof , sheweth these things in two particulars ; first in the essentiall causes ; 2. in the proper kindes or parts of the worship of the n. testament . the essential causes are matter and forme . the matter of gods worship ( sayth he ) is the holy scriptures , which conteyneth the word of god or the gospell , the subiect whereof is christ iesus : the forme or sowl that quickeneth it , is the spirit col. 3. 16. with ephe. 5. 18. 19. 20. then he illustrateth this , by the ceremoniall worship of the old testament . and the matter of that he maketh to be beasts , incense , oil , fat , corn , wine , and the like creatures whereof the sacrifices &c. wer made , with all the actions thereto perteyning . the forme he sayth appeared in 4. things ; 1. honey , and 2. leven which must be absent for the most part ; and 3. fyre and 4. salt which must allwayes be present . then for the kindes of spirituall worship , he sayth they are praying , prophefying , and singing psalmes . psal. 50. 14 — 17. 1 cor. 11. 4. and 14. 15. 17. 26. iam. 5. 13. rev. 19. 10. i wil not here stand to scan the good order which m. smyth hath used in handling the nature and essence of worship , whiles omitting the efficient causes , obiects and ends , which properly perteyne to the discourse of actions : he insisteth vpon matter and forme which he calleth essentiall causes : so taking that which is more vnproper , & difficult . but seing he hath chosen this way , i will follow him therein . and first i observe , how he intending to shut out the reading of the scriptures from spirituall worship ; yet maketh the scriptures to be the matter of worship : now how the matter of a thing , should be shut out and vnlawfull to be there , it requireth some skill to know . secondly , the scriptures being ( as he sayth ) the matter , and the spirit the form of this action of worship ; ( though properly the spirit is the † efficient cause ; ) it would be knowne why m. smyth in an other place sayth that * actions of administring the church or kingdom of christ , are not actions of spirituall worship properly so called , making those actions to be admonition , examination , excommunication , pacification , absolution &c. are not these to have the matter of the scriptures , and form of the spirit , as well as prophesie which th' apostle sayth , is a speaking † to edifying to exhortation and to comfort ? are we not aswell bound to the scriptures in admonishing , as in exhorting and must not the same spirit give life vnto both ? let paul himself be our example : he teacheth that * the whole scripture is profitable , as for doctrine so for † rebuke or conviction , and for correction ; and he in practise , rebuking and opposing against elymas , saying , * o ful of all subtilty and of all mischief , child of the divil &c. did this by the holy spirit , wherof he is noted then to be † ful . in preaching to the men of antiochia , he admonished them * by the word of the prophet abakuk : in preaching to the iewes in rome , he rebuked them ” by the word of the prophet esaias ; and peter in his sermon at ierusalem pacified their pricked consciences , by the promise of god , to them and to their children ; actes 2. 37. 39. so the word and spirit were matter and form of their rebukes , admonitions , pacifications , &c. even as of their other doctrines & exhortations , and therfore by mr sm. owne grounds , were spirituall worship ; and so his first plot where he made * actions of opposition , difference , plea & strife , not to be actions of spiritual worship ; is a wagmire wherinto this his conceipt of prophesie or preaching to be spirituall worship , is sunk , and by it overthrown . and sure the prophets and apostles and christ himself never observed this new coyned difference , for † they in their prophesying or preaching of the word , did intermixe rebukes with comforts , admonitions with exhortations , and opposed against syn and synners vsually in their sermons , as the whole historie of the bible sheweth . now by mr smyths divinitie they worshipped not god , when they spake by way of opposition , difference , plea or strife , in their doctrine ; but when they spake to edifying exhortation or comfort ; this was the worship of god properly so called . if this distinction be not true , then m. sm. is a deceiver , properly so called ; who to make things serve his hereticall humour and hide his blasphemies against our reading of the holy scriptures in the church , hath digged thus deep to find a pit whereinto to fell the righteous ; though himself by gods iudgement be fallen into the same . and here , by the way i will briefly note m. smyths methode in contriving of his book for the advantage of his cause . the three offices of christ , in prophesie preisthood and kingdome ; he reduceth vnto two , 1. kingdome and 2. preisthood ; ‡ comprehending prophesie vnder the preisthood as a branch of it . deut. 33. 10. rev. 1. 6. with 1 cor. 14. 31. act. 2. 17. 18. whereas by the same ground of deut. 33. 10. he mought have made the kingdome also a branch of the preisthood ; for the preists were to teach iaakob gods judgements and israel his law , as well in cases of * controversie plea and strife , ( which m. smyth maketh actions of administring the kingdome ; ) as in other doctrines of exhortation and comfort . but i find in the scripture that moses ( not aaron the preist , ) is made a figure of christ † as a prophet ; and prophets there were many in israel of other tribes then levi : seing then moses & the prophets caried types of christs prophesie ; aaron and the priests , of his priesthood ; david and the kings , of his kingdom ; i would not now confound the priesthood & prophesie in christ , any otherwise then the priesthood and kingdome ; but keep a like distinction in them al ; & as in christ the head , so in the church his body . againe as in heavenly order the 1. manifestatiō of mans syn and miserie by the law , of his justice & happines by the gospel ; also the 2. work of mans redemption by sacrifice ; & 3 the conservation of this grace wrought for the church , against al enemies ; are three distinct things , one following another : so christ in his administratiō observed this order & distinction ; first , † teaching the church as a prophet , above three yeares ; then * offring up himself as a preist & sacrifice to his father for his church ; and lastly rising & “ ascending into heaven to the right hand of god , there to † reign as king until al his enemies be made his footstool . now m. smyth maketh prophesie one with the priesthood , because he would have these two to be gods worship : & the kingdome he speaketh of first ; and excludeth al the actions of it from gods worship . whereas the gospell is called * the word of the kingdome ; and christ when he preached ( or prophesied ) is sayd to † preach the kingdome of god ; and the doctrines which he taught , were the * secrets of the kingdom ; and the apostles in their sermons † preached , expounded and testified the kingdom of god. wherefore they be deep waters which m. sm. hath found ; that the actions of administring the kingdome should not be worship : and yet the preaching of the gospell , or prophesying , shal be worship , and that in the highest degree , properly so called . if he followed not fansy in these things , rather then sound judgement ; let the prudent iudge . like vanity he sheweth in this , that having made the scriptures to be the matter of our worship now , he makethnot them to be the matter also of gods worship in israel , but beasts , incense , oil , fat , &c. and the form of our worship to be the spirit , but the forme of theirs to appear in honey , leven , fyre & salt . what , had not they the † written word of god , for a ground of their religious actions , as well as we have the “ written word ? had not they * the good spirit of god to instruct them , as we have ? had they not † praying prophesying , singing &c. by the spirit , as we ? how is it then , that this man maketh the matter and form of gods worship in israel , to consist in such carnall things ? there is a depth of abomination herein , which is the ground of his anabaptising heresie . for wheras th'apostle magnifieth the * iewish church , above the gentiles in many respects : this proud gentile disgraceth them extremely , saying † that their ministerie worship & government was carnal ; that faith and repentance was not required to the matter , that is , the people of that church , but onely a carnall holynes ; with many such like vituperies , which out of his carnal hart he uttereth against them . but for their worship which we have in hand , let him shew if he can , what one thing we have which they had not before vs. he maketh the parts of our worship to be three , praying , prophesying , singing ; all these they had , and vttered them by the spirit , as the scriptures every where manifest : and though they had many carnal rites with these , as sacrifices , incense , &c. yet was not their worship carnal : for we have also some carnall rites , as washing with water in baptisme , the eating of bread & wine in the lords supper ; have we therefore a carnall baptisme , a carnall supper ? if not , neyther had they a carnal worship , though carnall rites were adjoyned unto their worship . but as god whom they worshipped was a spirit , so worshipped they him in spirit , and with faith , exspecting that promise which god made vnto them of salvation by christ ; as paul testifyed of the whol body of that church ; that * the twelve tribes instantly serving ( or worshiping ) day and night , hoped to come vnto it : shewing further , that the gentiles are of the same , or † one joynt body with them ; fellow-heyres , and partakers of the promise in christ. m. s. having shewed ( as he thought ) the matter and form of the iewes worship , inferreth vpon it thus . * hence it followeth ( sayth he ) that the worship that beginneth in the book or translation commeth not originally from the spirit , but from the letter or ceremony , and so is not properly of the new testament , but of the old , 2 cor. 3. 6. if this followeth , upon the former description of their worship and ours , i think it comes a great way behind , that few wil be able to see it . for , did the matter of their worship , the beasts , incense , oil , &c. proceed out of the book ? or did the form seen in fyre and salt , come from the book , any otherweise then our praying , preaching , and ministring of the sacraments dooth or must doe . did they look on a book when they kindled fyre on the altar , or cast salt on the sacrifice ? if not , how followeth this halting inference ? that the worship performed in reading the scriptures proceedeth originally from the spirit , even from god , whose spirit is in his word , and who hath commanded it to be read : and that such reading is not the ministerie of the letter spoken of , 2 cor. 3 , 6. shall through gods grace , anon be proved ; in handling the second point , of the scriptures . here next followeth to be considered mr smythes allegories & opening the worship of the new testament , by the type in the old . their * church , ministery , worship , government , &c. as he sayth , were all literall and ceremonial . their litterall or typicall worship , was performed in two places , 1. the holy place , 2. or the court . the worship in the holy place , typed ( sayth he ) most properly the worship of the new testament , which was typed by the holy place , rev. 11. 1. 2. 2 cor. 6. 16. heb. 8. 2. and 9. 11. 1 pet. 2. 5. the worship of the tabernacle or holy place , consisted of 3. parts , 1. that which perteyned to the brazen altar , 2. that which was performed at the golden altar , 3. that which concerned the table of shew bread , exod. 37. & 38. with exod. 29 , 38. & 30. 7. 8. 34 — 38. levit. 24. 1. — 9. at the brazen altar were offred sacrifices propitiatorie and eucharisticall , signifying , prayer , thanksgiving , prophesie . at the golden altar was perfume , signifying prayer , thanksgiving , preaching the gospel . upon the table of shew bread was the candlestik , and 12. loves with incense . the candlestik signifyed the church ; shining by doctrine , &c. the shew bread , signified the 12. tribes or church , present before the lord , fed with christ &c. as the holy place with the altar and preists , did properly signify ( saith he ) the church , worship , and saints , rev. 11. 1 , 1 pet. 2. 5. under the new testament : so the court without the holy place whither all the people came , & the typical service performed there , did signifie the confused assemblies of antichristian persecutors , & their ceremonial worship , rev. 11. 2. which the spirit in that place caleth gentiles or hethen in these respects . the parts of typical service performed in the court , were reading and musik , wherein the levites were cheif agents ; though the preists also and any of the people might read and sing . the scriptures read and tunea musically , are prophesies , prayers , thanksgivings . in this discourse god would let the reader see , how m. smyth is given over to blindnes of hart , in judging spiritual things : by that blyndnes which is in him in discerning carnal things , & which are set before al mens eyes . for , to make the legal shadowes serve his fansie , he placeth the brazen altar in the holy place or tabernacle with the golden altar , table and candlestik : wheras the scripture sheweth it was set in the court-yard of the tabernacle † before the doore , and that a good distance off , having the laver * between the tabernacle and it , in which the preists did wash when they went into the tabernacle . and to this place at the dore of the tabernacle , did “ the people assemble , & it was † holy . if m. sm. saw not this in the scripture , yet reason mought have taught him not to make a chimney of the lords tabernacle covered & hāged with imbroidered curtayns . the boards of the tabernacle were but * ten cubits high , ( the brazen altar being “ three cubits ; the † tent and coverings were spread over them on hie , and a vayl * hanged at the door . vpon the altar was a fyre “ always kept burning , & here whole sheep and oxen were burned to ashes , many at once , sometime † a thowsand . can any reasonable man now think , that this was within the tabernacle , which was so low & little a place ? would the lord have the curtayns to be ” embrodered with cherubims , the boards to be covered with gold , that al mought be dight with smoke and swoot ; & continually in danger to be set on fyre ? yet m. smyth wil needs have it there , because he thought it would fit his turne wel . with like discretion he placeth the candlestik upon the table , though moses plainly telleth , that it ( being very great , of a * talent of gold , about 160 pound weight , ) was † set on the south side of the tabernacle , & the table with shew bread on the north . but his eye sight fayled not so much in the shadow , as his hart was blinded in the shadowed thing . for he maketh the 1 tabernacle , 2 altar , & 3 preists , to signifie the 1 church , 2 worship , & 3 saincts under the new testament : the 1. court of the tabernacle , he wil have to signifie the assemblies of antichrist ; the 2 israelites there assembling , to signifie the antichristian persecutors : 3 the typical service in the court , as reading the scriptures , & singing them with musik ; to signifie the ceremonial worship of antichristians . for none but antichristians ( as he thinketh ) do read the scriptures in their worship . behold unto what great impietie he abuseth the word of god. the body of the church of israel , the † son and first born of the lord , his * chosen and cheif treasure , “ precious unto him above al peoples of the earth , on whom he set his love , † riding upon the heavens for their help , & on the clowds in his glorie ; a people * blessed and saved by the lord , the sheild of their help and sword of their glorie : this people he maketh to signifie the antichristian persecutors , hated of god , children of the divil , for whose overthrow and confusion christ “ rideth on the heavens in his glorie with a garment dipt in blood , and a sword for to slay them , and fil al the fowles of the aier with their flesh . the worship and service commanded by god unto his people , and his good word to instruct them , by which he caled them † from the service of divils : this false prophet maketh to signifie the service of antichristian idolaters , which * worship divils . thd lords “ holy courts , wherein they that dwelt were † blessed , for which the sowles of the saincts * longed and fainted , counting one day there better then a thowsand otherwhere : is now made to signifie the synagogue of satan , and place where the divil dwelleth . so then the israel of god which according to his wil worshiped and served him “ with song and sacrifice ; the prophets , preists , levites , yea christ himself and his apostles , which often went thither to worship god and teach the people ; these al were figures and significatiōs of antichristian persecutors ; excepting the preists onely whom m , smyth of his courtesie , maketh figures of christians , when they did their service in the holy place . by this interpretation , when zacharie the priest was † in the temple burning incense , and the whole multitude of the people were without in prayer , wayting for his coming out to * blesse them : he & his service , signified christians and their worship of god ; they with their prayers , signified antichristians and their worship of the divil . yea god himself is highly blasphemed by this wretched exposition : for seeing by types & figures he taught his people how for to serue him , & led thē by earthly signes to heavenly things signified ; how can it be sayd or thought without blasphemie , that the publik worship of the whol congregation appointed by god himself , did signifie hellish things , and antichristian idolatries ? but what may we think induced m. sm. to this impietie ? even satan deceived him by one place of scripture which he † citeth in his book ; viz. rev. 11. 2. where iohn was willed in a vision , to castout the court which is without the temple , and not measure it , for it is given to the gentiles . hence doth m. smyth gather that the israelites which were wont to worship in the courts of the lord , did signifie the gentiles , that is the antichristians , and consequently the court must betokē antichrists church , and the worship antichrists worship . thus one dark scripture is alleged to overthrow the cleare doctrine that shineth throughout al the prophets . yet even this place it self mought have taught him better . for first the commandment to * measure the temple , altar , and worshipers , signified the restoring or repayring of gods church and people , after some destruction & desolation ; as the like visions shewed “ to ezekiel and zacharie , after the destruction of solomons temple , do manifest . secondly , wheras the court and the holy citie was not mesured here by iohn ; as before by † the other prophets , they were , and as afterwards * iohn did see : it may teach us , that as yet there was not a ful restauration of gods church and worship , from the defection of antichrist . thirdly in that the court is here sayd to “ be given to the gentiles , & the holy citie should be troden under foot of them , & a time limited how long , two & fourtie moneths : this argueth that the court was not made , nor the citie builded for them : but by gods permission , for the chastisement of men , was given unto them for a season , during which tyme his two witnesses should prophesie against them . and thus it is said of the figure the first temple and city , † i have given the dearly beloved of my sowl , into the hands of her enemies . so al iudah * was given into the hand of the king of babel : and “ esaias complayneth how the adversaries had troden down gods sanctuarie , as here † they tread down the holie citie . and if the court of the temple must needs signifie antichrists court , because it was given to the gentiles ; then must the holy citie , ( by which name * ierusalem is often alled ) : signify also antichrists citie & church , because it was troden downe of the same gentiles ; but all the prophets † shew that it signified the church of god. fynally , if m. s. would have interpreted scripture by scripture & not by his own fansie , he mought have seen a figure of those gentiles , rev. 11. set forth by the psalmist , “ o god the gentiles are come into thy inheritance , thine holy temple have they defiled , and made ierusalem heapes . where by gentiles are not meant the israelites , but babylonians or other hethen persecutors : and the very name gentiles rev. 11. whereby antichristians are called , should have taught him to look for their type , not in the church of israel , but in their adversaries ; as antichrists church is called * babylon , and christs † ierusalem . and as the gentiles of old , exposed “ the dead bodies of gods saints , unburied , to the beasts and birds : so these gentils † here , having killed the lords witnesses , would not suffer their carkesses to be put in graves . but m. smythes base account of israel to be but a carnal people , brought him to this dotage ; to make them in their assemblies and worship , to be figures of antichristian persecutors . this being thus cleared ; the reader may tast , how unsavoury and bitter m. smythes wormwood is , who to abolish the reading of gods word out of his worship and service ; would make the reading of it in the church of israel , to signify it should be read in the churches of antichrist , but not of christ. having handled thus the essential causes , of gods worship , with the types in israel ; next folow the parts and kinds of the same , which m. sm. sayth are 1. praying , 2. prophesying , 3 & singing psalmes . psal. 50. 14. 17. 1 cor. 11. 4. and 14. 15 — 17. 26. iam. 5. 13. rev. 19. 10. worship , properly so called , whereof he would seem to intreat : is not so large as here he makes it : and if he mean worship in generall , it is more large then these three particulars do expresse . worship strictly taken , for that which in greek is proskunesis , betokeneth a prostrating or supplicating vnto god : & is in scripture applied and annexed vnto prayer , exod. 34. 8. 9. vnto thanksgiving , gen. 24. 26. 27. vnto offrings & sacrifices , ( after whichit was performed , ) 1 chron. 16. 29. with 2 chro. 29. 29. unto the bringing of first fruits , with acknowledgement of gods goodnes , deut. 26. 2 — 10. vnto confession praysing and blessing of god ; nehem. 9. 3. 2 chron. 7. 3. 1 chron. 29. 20. iob. 1. 20. 21. and sometimes it is set downe absolutely , where these or some of them , are to be understood . act. 8. 27. exod. 4. 31. wherefore it is truely and properly applyed vnto all manner supplication or calling on the name of god. but that it may fitly be applyed unto prophesying , no scriptures that i know of , manifest ; neyther will the nature of the action bear it . prophesying ( to speak properly of it , as is meet in such controversies , ) is one of the extraordinary gifts of god vnto his church by his spirit ; as we have example in israell , num. 11. 25. 26. as was foretold by ioel to be at christs coming , ioel 2. 28. 29. and as was fulfilled vpon the apostles & members of the primitive churches . act. 2. 4. — 17. and 19. 2. — 6. 1 cor. 14. now why m. sm. should choose out this one gift , and neglect all others ( except singing a psalme : ) and make it above the rest , properly worship , i cannot tel . if he vse it for that which generally is called the preaching of the word , it is not fit in this place , where propriety is by himself pleaded for , and should in deed be vsed . he mought have seen in the same 14. to the corinthes , fowr wayes of teaching noted by the apostle , vers . 6. eyther by revelation , or by knowledge , or by prophesie , or by doctrine ; and examples of these fowr , in the christians practise : for paul spake of revelations to the church of corinth , 2 cor. 12. 1. 2. &c. and iohn by revelation , to the churches in asia . rev. 1. 1. 2. 4. 9. 10. &c. and by knowledge the same man spake to the church in generall , when he reported that which they had seen , heard , handled and knowne to be true ; ioh. 19. 35. 1 ioh. 1. 1. 3. and peter dooth the like ; 2. pet. 1. 17. 18. by prophesie , when by secret instinct of the spirit , they wer moved to speak somthing which tended to the edifying exhortation & comfort of the church , 1. cor. 14. 3. 29. 30. 31. act. 19. 6. by doctrine , when they scanned the scriptures and gathered doctrines , and exhortations from them , heb. 4. 3. 4. 7. & 7. 1. 2. &c. rom. 4. 3. 4. &c. luk. 4. 17. 18 — 21. and this latter is the surest way and safest now for the church , when by the scriptures they are taught the wil of god : the other extraordinarie and miraculous gifts being ceased . therfore the evangelists and ordinarie ministers of churches are not exhorted to prophesie , but to feed , preach , read , teach , exhort comfort &c. act. 20 , 28. &c. 1 pet. 5 , 1 , 2 , &c. 1 tim. 4 , 13 — 16. 2 tim : 4 , 2. 1 tim. 3. 2. tit. 1 , 9. though prophesie was not to be despised , 1 thes. 5 , 20. even as the preists and levites in the law , were not appointed ordinarily to prophesie but to † teach , which they did by * reading & expounding the scriptures : and prophesie was “ extraordinary to them or any other of what tribe so ever . although therfore the preaching of the word now among us , may be called prophesying , for the like use and effects in the church : yet have we not that proper gift or exercise , any more then of tongues : which we attayn by ordinary labour and stvdie , they had without studie . act. 2 , 4. and 19 , 6. but however m. sm. taketh the word , i deney prophesying to be worship properly so called : and wil consider his reasons , vvhich are tvvo , 1. praying & prophesying are ioyned togither ( † sayth he ) as parts of worship , 1 cor. 11 , 4. and men must be uncovered at both of them . agayn , 2. prophesying and psalmes are coupled togither for the same purpose . 1. cor. 14. 26. the first reason is insufficient , for in 1 cor , 11 , 4 , praying & prophesying are joyned indeed togither , but not as parts of worship properly so caled , that is of the glosse , not of the text . the thing there spoken of concerneth al ecclesiastical actions : & tvvo differing ech from other are named , to imply al the rest . for paul speaketh of the habit of men and women , vvhich became them to have in al publik meetings : vvhich vvas , that vvomen should be veiled , men unveiled on their heads : and this not onely because of the vvorship of god : but also † because of the angels , which are not to be worshiped ; and because of the man , * whose glorie the woman is : yea because of “ nature it self , which by giving women long hayr , teacheth them therby , that their heads should be covered . and by the man † having on ( or over ) the head , is not meant the having of a hat , cap , or bonnet upon his head , for that was lawful even in gods worship , the preists having † bonnets upon their heads , by gods appointment ; and to this day , the eastern countries put not off their bonnets or tucks when they pray or worship . but it was the having of a covering or veil ( called by the apostle peribólaion & catacálumma , ) which was a signe of * dishonour and subjection , unmeet for men which were principal in the assemblie , & caried gods “ image and glorie upon them ; but meet for women , which were inferior to men , both by † creation and otherweise , and therfore were to have * power upon their head , that is , a veil , signifying the power & authoritie which men had above them , as in al places , so cheifly in the church assemblies , wher women mought “ not speak , for the same cause . and that it was a shame and dishonour for men to have their heads covered , appeareth by other scriptures ; as ier. 14. 4. the ploughmen were ashamed they covered their heads . so david & his men in their sorow and affliction † had their heads covered ; and haman * in his mourning covered his head ; where the greek hath the very phrase ( kata kephales ) which th'apostle “ here useth . and that among the greeks also , ( such as the corinthians were ) the like custome was for men to cover their heads in dishonour , reproch , and grief ; † humane histories do record . but bonnets or miters on the head , were a sign * of honour : even as with us , the masters wear hats , when servants stand bareheaded . whereas therfore the apostle willeth women to be veiled or covered , it is not onely for the worship of god properly so caled , but because of gods worship in general , yea because of reverence and submission to men and angels . so it followeth not , because men must be unveiled at prayer and at prophesie , therefore these two actions are of one and the same nature : for they mought not be veiled in the church at al ; unlesse perhaps in extraordinary time of mourning and sorrow , they covered their heads , as i have shewed examples in israel . the other reason from 1 cor. 14 , 26. where prophesying & psalms are coupled togither ( as m , smyth sayth ) for the same purpose ; is more weak and lesse to the purpose . for prophesie is not named there ; but if it had been named , it would not have proved it worship properly , any more then tongues , revelations , interpretation , doctrine , which there are named , be parts or kinds of worship . and if because things are named togither we must therefore count them of the same nature , then † fayth , hope , and love coupled togither , and many other things in other scriptures , must be esteemed the same : which is vanitie to affirme . yea in this * very chapter , mr. smyth mought have learned the contrarie ; for it is sayd “ if al prophesie , and one that beleeveth not come in , he is rebuked of al &c. and so he wil fal down on his face and worship god , and say plainly that god is in you indeed . wher paul sheweth a difference between prophesie & worship , as in name so in gesture , by faling down , whereas at prophesie they † sate . and if men should kneel or prostrate themselves at the ministerie of the word and sacraments , it were liker idolatrie then seemly behaviour in the church : but at worship properly so caled , kneeling , bowing , falling down &c , are the most fit gestures : so as one is put sometime for another , as when mathew sayth the leper ” worshiped christ , luke recording the same sayth , * he fel on his face and besought him . and how often throughout the scriptures is bowing and falling down joyned with worship ? so in israel , at the ministerie of the word , the people “ stood up ; but at the worship of the lord they bowed down . moreover worship being directed unto god himself , ( for he that boweth , kneeleth , prayeth &c. doth these things unto god , as by the angel it is commanded † worship god : ) and prophesie being directed unto men , ( as paul sayth * he that prophesyeth speaketh unto men ; ) also the next end of worship , being the glory of god ( ex. 23 , 14 — 17. with ioh. 12 , 20. act. 8 , 27. ) but the next end of prophesie being the edifying exhortation & comfort “ of the church , these things may teach us that prophesie is not worship properly so caled , that is proskunesis : but onely in a general sense , as latreia or sebasis , even as reading the scriptures ( which is for mens edifying , exhortation and comfort as prophesie is ) and al other like ecclesiastical actions . and this word latreuo , paul † applieth to himself , in his preaching of the gospel ; of vvhom we may learn vvhat manner of vvorship prophesie is . whereas therfore m. smyth hath accused us of idolatrie , for reading the scriptures in the church ( vvherein vvee doe but that god commanded , in that manner and to that end ) and the man himselfe calleth and esteemeth prophesie to be worship in the proper sense : he is taken in the snare which he set for the righteous ; and if any be idolaters for such things , himself is one and principall . or , how ever it be for that , all men may see how he hath sought to abuse vs by his aequivocation , & to shrowd himself in a conceited fansie . yet one thing more i will observe touching the sacraments , which m. sm. speaketh not of in this place ; but elswhere in that book sayth thus ; * the publishing of the covenant of grace , and the putting to of the seales : is onely one concrete action or part of worship : for the publishing of the covenant giveth being to the seales : otherweise , breaking bread and baptising are but putting of seales to a blank . here first i note by the way , how m. s. acknowledgeth the lords supper and baptisme to be seales of the covenant of grace ; ( as in † another place also he calleth them ; ) yet now being put to his shifts for defense of his anabaptisme , he is driven thus to say , * i deney that baptisme is the seal of the covenant of the new testament . thus the windie clowd carieth himself to and fro , and rather then he will forgoe his error , he wil contradict that which before he had well written ; though it may be also confirmed by the testimony of the holy ghost , who calleth cir cumcision ( the figure † of our baptisme , ) a seale of the righteousnes of faith . rom. 4 , 11. but , to the point in hand , if the publishing of the covenant , and the putting to of the seal as baptising with water ; breaking , giving , taking , eating of bread &c. be one concrete , that is , one joynt action or part of worship ( as i grant it is , taking worship generally : ) why is not the reading and expounding or preaching of the word , also one conjoyned action and part of worship : especially seing they were joyned together in israel , as nehem. 8. 8. they read in the book of the law of god distinctly , and gave the sense &c. if the preists and levits then whose office was to † teach iaakob gods judgements and israel his law ; did thus teach with reading : and if it be true that th'apostle sayth , * moses of old time hath in every citie them that preach him , he being read in the synagogues every sabbath : and if christ himself first † read the text of scripture and after that preached from it : have wee not as good ground to say that reading and preaching is one joynt action and part of worship , as preaching and baptising ? but it was satans policie to disgrace the reading of gods book , and seek to thrust it quite out of the worship of god ; that men mought prophesie ( as now they use to speak , ) out of their harts ; and honour that as gods proper worship ; and so the serpents word if it were mixed with the lords , mought the more easily be unespied , the scriptures being absent . but god hath joyned his “ word together with his spirit : that his people should not be deceived by such as † walk in the spirit , and ly falsly . singing of psalmes . m. sm. wil have to be the third part of worship ; because praying and singing psalms are put together ( † sayth he ) in the same sense , ( that is , as parts of worship . ) 1 cor. 14. 15 17. iam. 5. 13. act. 16. 25. and prophesying and psalmes are coupled together for the same purpose . 1 cor. 14. 26. here agayne m. s. omitteth the needful distinction of psalmes and singing of them . for some psalmes are written in the bible , as canonical scripture , given to the church for to be read , expounded , and sung : which m. s. himself granteth , even of the translation , saying , * it may be read in the church and sung in tunes . and this singing is with harmonie of voices . an other kind of psalm there is , which one man vttereth in the church , and others hear him : of which sort the apostle speaketh , 1 cor. 14. 26. when ye come togither , as every one of you hath a psalm , or hath doctrine , or hath a tongue , or hath a revelation , or hath interpretation , let all things be done to edifying . this kind is far inferiour to the other , as being uttered by men subject to err as wel in singing as in teaching , and it is to be tried by the psalms in scripture , and other authentik books . this was an extraordinary gift as strange tongues and the like . yet m. s. loving to handle things confusedly , that his error might lesse appeare , speaketh here of singing psalms as of one sort , and nature . again , that he might make all serve his own fansie , he describeth singing of psalms to be † the shewing of our thanksgiving to god , by the manifestation of the spirit , philip. 4. 6. 1 cor. 14 , 15 — 17. wheras we find in the scripture many psalms directly penned for * doctrine and instruction to the church , as othersome are for thanksgiving to god : yea matter of all sorts , historie of things past , prophesie of things to come , rebuke , threatning , comfort , lamentation , and what not , is mixed in songs of the scripture , and why such psalms might not by the spirit be suggested to christians in pauls time , ( as wel as thanksgivings , ) i know not any reason at all . so that his reasons of prayer & song mentioned togither , are insufficient to prove them both of one nature properly ; as before is noted of prophesie : rather we are to distinguish praying , singing , prophesying , as three severall gifts and works of the spirit : and all of them gods worship and service in the church according to their severall kinds and nature . but it seemeth strange vnto me , that m. sm. should now both allow of the scriptures to be sung in tunes in the church ; and also make the singing by gift of the spirit , a part of gods proper worship in the new testament ; and yet he & his disciples to use neither of these in their assemblies . if it be an ordinary part of worship , why perform they it not , but quarrel with vs , who accounting it an extraordinary gift now ceased , do content our selves with joint harmonious singing of the psalmes of holy scripture , to the instruction and comfort of our harts , and praise of our god. separating our selves ( as the holy ghost * willeth vs ) from such as dote about questions and strife of words , whereof cōmeth envie , contention , and many other euils . of the scriptvres . having ended the point of worship , with the nature & parts of it : it remayneth now to see , how this thing is applied by m. s. against reading of the scriptures . and first in the generall touching all manner writings , he sayth that † books or writings are in the nature of pictures or images , and therfore in the nature of ceremonies , and so by consequēt reading in a book is ceremonial . if m. sm. can prove books & images to be both of a nature , & both alike ceremonies : he may be a proctour for the pope , who hath brought images into the church , for laie mens books . and if the book be to him that readeth , of the nature that an image is to him that gazeth : who would not plead for them both alike , to be used or rejected ? but what if an other would come and say , that words or speaches are in the nature of trumpets or bells ; and therefore in the nature of ceremonies ; and so by consequent as the * silver trumpets ; & † golden bells in the law were ceremonies , & ended by christ : so speaking or preaching of the word is likeweise ceremonial & men now must ▪ be all taught by the spirit . hath not this as good a colour against the audible voice , as the other against the visible writing ? for as the sound of the voice affecteth the eare and understanding of the hearer ; so the sight of the letter affecteth the eye & understanding of the reader : and as far dooth a book differ from an image , in this respect , as a man from a bell . a bell when it soundeth in the eare , yeeldeth no distinct articulate voice , for the edifying of the hearer ; but a man when he speaketh , is vnderstood of the hearers , & his reanable voice dooth edify : so an image when it is looked vpō , affoardeth a man no edification ( no not if it were an image sent frō heaven , unlesse it had a † voice withall : ) but a book when it is read , informeth the mind , and feedeth not the eye onely , as dooth a picture . an image & picture hath a “ mouth & speaks not ; no spirit or breath of life is in thē : but the book of god , is * theopneustos , inspired of god , his spirit & life is in it ; it is not a dumb teacher , but † speaketh & “ testifyeth the mind of god ; and by that which is there written the spirit * speaketh to the churches . wherfore a mayn difference is to be put between livelesse pictures & gods lively oracles in his book ; & so in all writings . and if m. s. continue in this mind that a book and an image are both of a nature , i could with he would set out no more books , but images in their sted : so should lesse harm come unto mens soules , then now dooth by reading his hereticall writings . but if books and writings be in nature of ceremonies , & reading ( as he sayth ) ceremonial ; wherof he giveth this reason , for as the beast in the sacrifices of the old testament was ceremonial , so was the killing of the beast ceremoniall : ) how is it , that he sayd before of reading , that it is a lawful ecclesiastical action ; dooth not the * lying tongue vary incōtinently ? for shall we have legall ceremonies , ( the † shadow of things to come , whose body is in christ , ) to be used as lawful ecclesiasticall actions ? may we not then have pictures & images of “ cherubims &c. for ecclesiastical use ; as we have the holy scriptures , which by m. s. religion , are in the nature of images & ceremonies . in another † place he sayth , as musicall instruments and playing vpon them was typicall , because it was artificial : so reading of a book was typicall also , because it is meerartificial . so then the playing on the organs , and the reading of the scriptures are both of a nature , both types and ceremonies , & so abolished . how near these reasons & groūds do reach to iudaism & familism , i leave unto the wise to judge ; and future things wil shew more : for as yet the † wandring starrs have not run al their course . of the original scriptures . after his censure of books in general , to be of the nature of images : m. sm. cometh to fight against the use of gods scriptures in his worship ; beginning even with the originals , the hebrue and greek as they were written by the prophets & apostles . wherin he is fallen into a higher degree of error , or of frawd ; then when we had controversie with him : for then * his plea was , no translation ( for it is apocrypha ) but onely the canonical scriptures are to used in the church in tyme of gods worship . now he wil out with canonical scripture also , for the reading of it , he thinketh was a ceremonie ended by christ : thus see we fulfilled the saying of the prophet , “ they proceed from evil to worse . and first to prove them ceremonies , he layeth these grounds . † the holy originals ( sayth he ) signifie and represent to our eyes , heavēly things : therfore the book of the law is called the similitude of an heavenly thing . heb. 9. 19 — 23. holy scriptures or writings began with moses , exo. 24 , 4. and 31. 18. ioh. 1. 17. 2 cor. 3 , 7. before moses , holy men prophesied out of their harts , and received and kept the truth of doctrine by tradition from hand to hand . 2 pet. 2 , 5. jude ver . 14 , 15. deut. 31 , 24. when moses had written the law , he caused it to be put by the ark in the most holy place , as a witnesse against the people , deut. 31 , 26. therefore the apostle caleth it the handwriting in ordinances which was contrary to us , which christ nayled to his crosse . col. 2 , 14 , eph. 2 , 15. hence it followeth that the holy originals , the hebrue scripture of the old testament , are ceremonies , 2 cor. 3 , 3 , 7 num. 5 , 23. 24. & by necessarie consequent . the book or tables of stone , typed unto the jewes their hard hart , void of the true understāding of the law . 2 cor 3 , 3. hebr. 8. 10. ezek. 36 , 26 , 27. 2 cor. 3 , 14 , 15. the ynk wherwith the letters were written , signified the spirit of god. 2 cor. 3 ; 3 , heb. 8 , 10. with exod. 31 , 18. the letters written or characters ingraven signifieth the work of the spirit , who alone doth write the law in our harts . by proportion . also deut. 9 , 10. with heb. 8 , 10. reading the words of the law out of the book , signifieth the vttering of the word of god out of the hart , by proportion . see also 2 cor. 3. 2. 3. 6. 1 cor. 12 , 7. the writings of the old testament being ceremonial , are therefore abolished by christ onely so far forth as they are ceremonial , col. 2. 14. 20. gal. 4. 9. the thing signifyed by the book , viz the law of god & the new testament remayneth , 2 cor. 3. 11. 7. heb. 8. 6. 7. 13. here first may be observed , how m. sm. professing to treat of the originall scriptures , in which both old and new testament , both law and gospel are written unto vs : taketh one part onely , to weet , the law or old testament , and from it will conclude against the whole body of the scriptures ; and this fallacie he often useth in his writings . but if all he here sayth were graunted , that the writings of moses were abolished by christ : yet will it not therevpon follow that the writings of the other prophets and of the apostles also , are typicall , ceremoniall and abolished . nay rather the contrary would follow thus ; that as circumcision , and the passeover &c. were figurative shadowes ended by christ , no more to be used ; but baptisme and the lords supper instituted by christ in sted of the former , are continually to be practised : so the writings of the old testament , if they were shadowes & ended by christ , yet the writings of the new testament , given insted of the other , are never to be abolished . secondly , let it be considered what m. sm. hath here left unto vs , not ceremoniall and unabolished ; the thing signifyed ( sayth he ) by the book , viz , the law of god and the new testament : but where is this to be had ? not in letters written with ynk , on paper , or parchmēt , for all these he sayth are ceremoniall and so abolished ; but written in mens harts as in books , with the spirit as with inck , and so to be uttered by men , out of their harts . if satan can but perswade this point , he will bring out of mens harts , as out of the bottomlesse pit , a smoke of heresies , insted of the fyrie law of god , & who shall control him . for mens harts now , are the same which gods book was of old ; and as israell fetched their lawes , doctrines , worship , and services from the scriptures written with inck : so christians now must fetch their lawes , doctrines , worship . &c. from the harts of men , as from the tables of the lavv , and vvhat is from thence uttered , is to be counted , as written with inck of gods spirit . for the hevenly things themselves are as much yea more to be honoured , esteemed , credited ; then the book which was but a type and similitude of heavenly things . h. n. the enemie of gods scriptures , can shew no stronger ground for his familisme , wherein he reprocheth scripture learning : then this which is here layd by m. smyth . but the scriptures and reasons which he hath brought , be farr from proving so deadly an error . for the book of god as alwayes , so stil , signifieth and representeth to our eyes heavenly things ; ( although * some figurative extraordinary vse thereof be abolished : ) for it signifieth and teacheth vnto vs the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven . and as the book of the lavv was a witnesse † against israel , when they ¶ walked rebelliously and with a stiffe neck : so is it a witnesse to this day “ against all christians that walk in like sort . but such in israel as had the word * neer vnto them in their mouth and in their hart for to do it ; the book of the law was a witnesse for them ; a † sure testimony giving wisdom to the simple , a perfect law , converting the sowl ; and the statutes of the lord therein , were right unto them , and rejoyced the hart , the commaundement of the lord was pure and gave light unto the eyes : even so to all faithful christians now , the writings of the prophets & apostles is a “ sure word , to which they do wel to take heed , as to a light shining in a dark place ; by it they ¶ beleeve , and so come to life ; and by it * their joy is made full . agayn m. sm. erroneously substituteth one extraordinary use of some part of the scripture , for the ordinary uses of the whole . moses wrote in a book the old testament or covenant of works , ( summed vp in exod. 20. 21. 22. and 23. chapters : ) which book was read in the peoples eares , and sprinkled with blood , as the people also was ; for a sanction or confirmation of the testament : in which action there was an extraordinary and figurative vse of the book for that time , which now is abolished by christs blood which hath confirmed the new testament , and abrogated the old . the holy histories , prophesies , psalmes , parables &c. were never thus sprinkled with blood ; but onely that book wherein the conditions of the covenant were written . wherefore there were besides this , other ordinarie permanent & perpetual uses of the scriptures , by † reading them privatly and publikly , for the teaching exhorting comforting reproving of the people , according to their daily need & occasion , that every child of god might have knowledge * of the certainty of the word of truth , for to answer words of truth to them that sent unto him ; as solomon sayth . and therfore as at the publik solemn assemblie of al israel in the sabbath year , the law was “ read unto them al , that they mought learn , & fear god , and keep al his words , they & their children : so at their particular assemblies in their synagogues throughout every citie , both moses and ⸫ the prophets that wrote after him , were read every sabbath day : and this from old time , even unto christs dayes on earth , who himself † in his own person and action allowed and sanctified this holy custome ; and commended by his apostles * al the scriptures fore written , unto his disciples ; and gave them also other scriptures , for like end and use ; & warned them that no man should “ presume above that which is written . wherefore it is a deceit of satan for mans ruine , to seek to make the scriptures generally & wholly ceremonial and abolished ; because of that extraordinarie use of them at the sanction of the law , at mount sinai . but the counsel of god unto his people is , ⸫ seek in the book of the lord , and read ; & † search the scriptures , for in them ye think to have eternal life . as for the law of god to be written in mens harts by the spirit , this taketh not away the use of the law written in books with ynk ; for in israel when the bible was read every sabbath , david had the law of god within * his bowels , whereby he declared righteousnes in the great congregation ; and as he , so every other righteous mans mouth , spake of wisdom , & his tongue talked of judgment , * the law of his god being in his hart , as moses “ commanded : yet ceased not the reading of the law out of the book . so at this day , true christians in wose harts gods law is written , are not ( no though they be † ministers extraordinarily furnished with grace ) to leave the reading of the law written in books any more then they did in israel ; and christs apostles have written the word even ⸫ with paper and ynk , as they spake it with voyce ; to meet with their dotage that dream ynk and paper to be meerly ceremoniall . as for al hypocrites , they are now as heretofore stony harted , and the outward letter written with ynk , resembleth their hypocrisie . but whereas m , s. having cited deut. 31. 26. inferreth , therfore the apostle caleth it the handwriting in ordinances which was contrary to us , which christ nayled to his crosse col. 2. 14. eph. 2 , 15. he mismatcheth the places : for paul speaketh of † worldly rudiments , the outward services of the law , ( which elswhere he caleth also * beggerly rudiments ) such as was “ circumcisió ; the observing † of dayes & moneths &c. which ordinances were as an handwriting or obligation against the iewes , witnessing that they were debters unto god , synners , miserable , & under the curse : unlesse they saw and learned christ in them : by whom the obligation is cancelled , and curse done away . for by circumcising thēselves , they acknowledged ( as by a bil of their hand ) that they were born in syn , and impure by nature : even as we by baptising our selves , doe the like . by offring sacrifices for syns , they acknowledged themselves actual transgressors of the law , and the killing of beasts , argued themselves were vvorthy of death . novv it vvas not possible * for the blood of buls and goats to take avvay synns , and the lavv “ taught them so much : therfore it vvas a † schoolmaster to lead them to christ , that they mought be made righteous by faith . this handwriting vvhich stood thus in decrees against the ievves , and vvhich rose up as an adversarie and contrary unto them : christ blotted or vviped out by his death on the crosse , vvhere he spoiled also the * principalities and powers , the divils vvhich vvere readie to plead against israel , & urge this hādvvriting , these ordinances vvhich they practised , against them ; if they used them not vvith fayth in christ , but vvith expectation of justice by works of the law . now this word handwriting figuratively used and applied to the legal ordinances , m. smyth taketh properly , for the written law and prophets : as if christ had blotted out them : and taken them from his church , even as he took circumcision , altars , sacrifices , &c. which how far it is from truth , i leave unto every conscience 〈◊〉 judge . but were it as he thinketh , the writtten word of god , yet must it then be limited , so farr forth onely as men do abuse it , and learn not christ by it ; for to such onely it is a handwriting , contrary to them : and so is at this day . but this is not the proper use or end of the law or scripture in it self , for it preacheth to men the † word of fayth , and righteousnes therby in christ , as wel as righteousnes by works of the law : and the gospel hath * witnesse of the law and prophets , and they “ testifie of christ , & are a † sure word unto christians . wherefore it were woe vvith us , if these vvere blotted out , and taken avvay as ceremonies and shadovves abolished : the reading vvhereof both publik and private , is a continual light and comfort to our harts , and confirmation of our holy fayth . and to substitute mens harts ( vvhich are , by testimonie of the prophet , “ deceitful and wicked above al things , ) in sted of the holy bible , vvhose vvords † are al true and faithful : is a miserable exchang ; for eyther men must be as vvere the prophets , * moved and caried by the holy ghost ; and so all their vvords taken for heavenly oracles : or else vve shal be fed vvith chaffe in sted of vvheat , and drink deadly poyson in sted of vvholesome liquor . the serpent is subtile † more then any beast of the field : he savv this ground of making the scriptures of god , ceremonies , and abolished by christ , vvould be distasted of many , yea of any that feareth god : therefore he laboureth to svveeten this vvormvvood , vvith an after receipt : vvhich yet is so tempered , as it may serve to help forward his purpose , in taking the book of god out of the church . m. smyth in the † next place granteth , that the holy scriptures are the fountain of al truth : the ground and foundation of our fayth : that by them al doctrines , and every spirit is to be iudged : that they are to be read in the church and to be interpreted : neverthelesse , not reteyned as helps before the eye , in tyme of spiritual worship . there is no such battel , as when a man is at warr with himself : & it is a special judgment wher with god smiteth his enemies . would any man think that such bitter & sweet waters could come out of one fountain , as have flowed here ? standeth this eyther with religion or with reason ; that that which as an adversary , is blotted out , nayled to christs crosse , & abolished as being ceremonial and a worldly rudiment ; should yet be the fountayne of all truth , the ground of faith , &c. if these will stand togither , what wil not ? then also may circumcision , altars , sacrifices , and other iewish services , although they were shadowes and abolished by christ ; yet be reteyned and used of christians , with a little qualification , and distinction of worship properly so called : and this will like the iewes very well . but we that have learned christ , cannot brook such contrary potions . for if the book , writing & reading of it be iewish shadowes ended and abolished by christ ; and the hart and speaking out of it , be the shadowed thing , the heavenly truth , figured by , and substituted for the other : we would keep the substance , & leave the ceremony for such as follow shadowes . but if the book of god , the written scriptures , be the fountaine of all truth , and foundation of our faith ; as it is in deed , and we so esteem it : then can we not but detest , that former plot , as a groundwork of satan , that hung vp the scriptures as our enemy vpon the crosse , so blotting them out as a cancelled bond , and abolishing them for ever . wherefore the reading and expounding of the scriptures , continueth , now as of old in israel , where the lavv and prophets were read in the synagogues every sabbath , for to teach & inform gods people in his vvayes : so read vve them still for like end and vse , and shall by gods grace ( maugre satans slights ) so do vnto the end . and as for the snare , the distinction i mean , of spiritual worship properly so called . which vvas set to take the simple : it is broken * before ; and the adversary himself , if any man be , is caught vvith the same . yet ceaseth he not , but proceedeth vvith reasons , † that the originall scriptures are not given as helpes before the ey in worship . but the foundations being already overthrovvn ; vve shall vvith lesse difficultie and more brevitie , discover and do away the errors . his reasons are . because christ used the book to fulfil all righteousnes , mat. 3. 15. & having by the use of the book fulfilled the law of reading , he shut the book in the synagogue , to signifie that the ceremonie of book worship , or the ministerie of the letter , was now expired and finished . luk. 4. 20. ioh. 19. 30. first here is the law of reading brought to an end , according to that first ground of ceremonies ; & contrary to the second grant that the scriptures are to be read in the church and to be interpreted : which reading and interpreting if it be not gods worship and service , it is the worship of the divil . thus m. sm. wavereth as a reed shaken with the wind . secondly , in the other side of the leaf , † m. sm , forgetting himself as a drunken man , sayth , all the worship that was appointed by moses for the preists , was limitted to the holy place , whether the people were not admitted ; and therefore reading was of an other nature performed in the utter court or synagogue or elsewhere , eyther by the levites or any other learned men ; ( quoting againe luke 4. 16. ) and so no part of worship properly so called , but onely a ceremonial ground or foundation , of inward or outward spirituall worship , common to the churches of all ages . if this be so , how ended christ the ceremonie of book-worship , where none was to end ? if there were no proper worship in the synagogues but exercises of an other nature ; then christ reading in the synagogue , read not worship ; and shutting the book there , shut not up book worship , nor caused it to exspire ; and so m. sm. hath lost his dream . agayn , if christ by shutting the book there , signified an end of reading ; and the reading that there was , ( as m. s. even now sayd , ) was such as is common to the churches of all ages : then christ hath ended all manner reading whatsoever in the church , even that which is common to all ages ; or else the allegorie will turn to a fansie ; & so all reading must be abolished out of the church ; & that would the divil faine bring to passe . but the reason of ending reading , is slight ; that because christ shut the book and gave it to the minister , therfore he ended the work of reading . he used not to do such weighty matters , by dumb signes , without * word of signification . and if the closing of the book were such a mysterie : what was the taking and opening of the book , nothing ? proportion will cary it to be the beginning , as well as shutting should be the end . but they be vain speculations , to gather from mute actions , an otherthrow of morall lawes , permanent and needful for the the church in all ages . neyther was this the first or the last time of christs reading thus ; for as his custome was ( sayth † the scripture ) he went into the synagogue and stood vp to read : neyther was it a decent thing , that he having received the book shut , should redeliver it open ; their books being long rolls or volumes , not bound vp like ours . finally this argument against reading , hath like weight of truth , as the papists have for their vanities , who “ allege for prayer in a strange tongue , that christ prayed eli eli lama sabachthani , which the people that heard him , vnderstood not : and * that he preached out of s. peters bote , to signify how in s. peters chaire , his doctrine should alwayes be stedfastly professed . such trifles must be brought wher sound proofs are wanting . 2. because reading words out of a book , is the ministration of the letter . 2 cor. 3. 6. namely a part of the ministerie of the old testament which is abolished , heb. 8. 13. 2 cor. 3. 11. 13. and the ministerie of the new testament , is the ministerie of the spirit . 2 cor. 3. 6. this scripture of the 2. cor. 3. m. sm. often allegeth for his purpose ; pag. 1. & 7. & 13. & 19. and 20. he thought belike it would sound well in simple folks eares , that the reading of scriptures should be the ministerie of the letter . but the ignorance & evil of the allegation is great ; and fitted for satans policie , to draw men from reading the book of god. for if reading be the ministration of the letter there spoken of ; then is it the ministration of death & damnation , as the apostle there calleth it , vers . 7. 9. and then the papists have doon best of al , forbidding the people to read the scriptures , least they should gather out of them errors , and so death and damnation . and who can comfortably read the scriptures , if that be the ministerie of the letter , and so death ? but out vpon such a slanderous interpretation ; it is farr from the apostles meaning . he calleth the law the letter , figuratively , because it was written with letters , & graved on stones : he intendeth not the books of the prophets , wherin both law and gospel was written , & alwayes to be read for instruction , comfort & salvation to the people . the law vvas first spoken , and aftervvards vvritten by moses : the gospel of christ vvas also first spoken , and aftervvards vvritten by his apostles . if vvriting and reading made the other the letter , then maketh it this the letter also ; and so the vvord of life , shal be the ministration of death . the lavv if it had never been vvritten , but onely spoken , yet had it been the ministration of death : for all israel hearing it , † vvere afrayd , and death seised vpon their consciences : and this by hearing gods lively voice from heaven , not by hearing the stony tables read , for it is not manifest that ever they vvere read unto them , but onely put and kept in the ark for a testimony . deut. 10. 1 — 5. and when the 10. cōmandements were read * out of the book , there was no such feare : and the glorie of moses face terrified the people when he † spake and talked with them , for which he put a veil vpon him : but of reading out of a book at that time ( wherto the apostle here hath reference , ) there is not a word . so it was not reading onely but speaking also without book , which was the ministration of the letter to the iewes ; and as paul here calleth the law the letter , so elswhere he calleth it , “ the voice of words . it is not therefore the writing , but the thing written which he intendeth . and if m. sm. should fall to the heresie of iustification by the works of the law , and teach this in prophesie out of his hart , though he never read line in the holy bible , yet should he be a minister of the letter and of damnation to his disciples . of this letter paul sayth , * it is the ministration of death : but of the scriptures christ saith ¶ serch them , for in them ye think to have eternal life . of this letter paul sayth , it is † the ministerie of condēnation ; but of the holy letters in gods book , he sayth , * they are able to make one wise unto salvation through the faith vvhich is in christ iesus . the law is called the letter ( not letters as the “ scripture is called ) by a similitude : for a letter is an outward visible thing appearing to the eye of an other that looketh on ; whereas the thing whereon it is written , whither paper or stone , is not moved or changed therby . such is the doctrine of the law to the professor of it . it maketh him seem a fayre hypocrite before men : they look and see the commandments of god written on his forehead , on the fringes of his garments , and on his dore posts : but his hart and mynd are stony stil. for the law renueth no man , but syn that is in us , † taketh occasion by the law , and worketh in us al manner transgression of the law , and so death . but the gospel is the spirit that renueth & quickneth by faith in christ : and changeth * the stony hart into flesh , and writeth there the lawes of the most high . thus by the letter is not meant the holy scriptures , which are gods instrument for our renovation : but the external work of the law upon a man : in which sense paul also mentioneth circumcision in the letter rom. 2. 29. meaning outward circumcision of the flesh to be seen and read of men : where to take it as this man doth 2 cor. 3. of reading the scriptures , were to follow the “ devouring words of the deceitful tongue . 3. because upon the day of pentecost and many yeares after the churches of the new testament did use no bookes in time of spiritual worship , but prayed , prophesied and sang psalmes merely out of their harts act. 2 , 4. 42. and 10. 44. 48. and 19 , 6. 1 cor. 14 , 15 , 17 , 26 , 37. 4. because no example of the scripture can be shewed of any man ordinarie or extraordinarie , that at or after the day of pentecost used a book , in praying , prophesying , and singing psalmes : if yea , let it be don and wee yeeld . nay , it is not in mens power to yeeld to the truth though it be shewed them : or though their own writings convince them : it is in † god that shevveth mercy . first m. smyth holdeth that such reading as vvas in the ievves synagogues * was common to the churches of all ages . secondly he sayth “ the scriptures are to be read in the church , and to be interpreted , col. 4. 16. compared with luk. 24 , 27 , & 1 cor : 14 , 27. and 12. 10 by proportion . 2 pet. 3. 16. if these assertions and these places alleged , ( let the reader look and examine them ) prove that the scriptures are to be read in churches ; as in deed some of them doe : we need fight no longer : the enemie unawares hath yeilded the feild . his florish that he maketh , how the churches of the new testament used no books , because no example can be shewed : is a deceitful argument . for when there is a ground from god to doe the thing : we are to suppose men did it , although it be not expressly “ written . and this adversary granteth the scriptures were to be read ; and we are sure that the churches were to be taught by the men of god : and paul sayth that al the scripture † is profitable to teach , to improve , to correct , to instruct in righteousnes : that the man of god , that is the * minister of the new testament as wel as of the old , may be absolute , & made perfect unto al good works . wherfore as the preists and levits which were to “ teach israel , taught them by † reading & expounding the scriptures ; so doubtlesse did the ministers in the apostles dayes , upon the same ground and proportion ; though their particular form of administration be not expressed . that cavil of spiritual worship which as a leprosie overspreadeth al m. smyths book , is before taken away . praying never was by reading out of a book ; prophesying & singing psalmes , being extraordinary gifts of the spirit , were also uttered by the spirit , without a book . al this notwithstanding , the scriptures were read and expounded to the people , & so must be stil ; and this though it be not proskunesis adoration supplicatiō or worshiping of god , in the strict sense ; yet is it latreia his worship or service in general . 5 because none of the bookes of the newe testament were written many yeres after the day of penticost , at the least 7. yeares : and the churches al that time , could not use the books of the new testament which they had not . but they could use the books of the prophets , which they had : wherin both old & newe testament were conteyned . and peter cōmended the churches for * taking heed vnto them , as to a light that shined in a dark place . 6. because the churches of the greeks had no books to use , that they might use lawfully ; for they understood not hebrue , and the septuagints translation ought not to be used or made ; & the apostles made no greeke translatiō . &c. if they had no books to use , they were blamelesse if they used none . but they had the greek translation , which was lawful to be made and used in the iewes synagogues ; as anon shall be shewed , when the septuagints work cometh to be scanned . 7 because as in prayer , the spirit onely is our help ; and ther is no outward help given of god , for that kind of worship ; so also in prophesying and singing 1. cor. 11. 4. and 14. 16. god never gave books to read for prayers unto him : but * pre , pared mens harts and bended his ear . and as every man † knew the plague , ( and consequently the benefit ) in his owne hart , so was he to pray & supplicate unto god , who heard in heaven , and was mercifull , and did , as he knew every mans wayes and hart . but as in praying men speak their minds to god : so in preaching god speaketh his mind to us ; and this he doth by his scriptures and by gifts unto men for teaching and applying them ordinarily to his church . prophesying and singing , hath often been performed by the spirit without book , “ both in the old testament and in the new * . if any now have such gifts , it were folly to say they must read them out of a book . reading the scriptures is for ordinary teaching ; which by extraordinary gifts , was never destroyed ; and things coordinate , ar not contraries . 8 because it is against the nature of spirituall worship : for when we read , we receive matter from the book into the hart : when we pray , prophesy , or sing , we utter matter out of the hart , unto the ear of the church ezek , 2. 8. — 19 and 3. 1. — 4. rev. 10. 8. — 11. if ezekiel a preist under the law , prophesyed without a book ; and yet reading the book of the lawe and expounding it , was their ordinary service every sabbath , as before is manifested : all men may see , that these two may stand together in gods worship , and not one throw out an other , as m. sm. would have it . neyther is it against the nature of spiritual worship , to read gods book in the eares of the church : for if it be worship in them to heare the spirit speak out of the ministers hart ; it is worship also in them to hear the spirit speak , out of the holy book . and it cannot be deneyed but gods spirit * speaketh there ; and that which commeth out of the hart of man , must be tried by that book ; and accordingly , accepted or refused . as for the minister himself when he readeth out of gods book , and when he speaketh by gift of the spirit the meaning of the scripture , to the people ; he serveth god in them both : having christ himself for an example . luk. 4. 17. — 21. 9. because upon the day of pentecost , fyerie cloven tongues did appear , not fyerie cloven books . act. 2. 3. and alwayes there must be a proportion betwixt the type and the thing typed . upon the day of pentecost the fyerie law was given in books , deut. 33. 2. exod. 24. 4. 12. upon the day of pentecost the fyerie gospel was given in tongues , act. 2. 3. mat 3. 11. act. 1. 5. the book therfore was proper for them , the tongue for vs. in deed if any fyerie bookes had appeared at the giving of the law , m. smyths allegorie would have had some light : but when as no such thing was seen , but onely † a voice of words was heard , as moses telleth vs ; we should beware of such clowdy collections . the fyerie law mentioned deut. 33. 2. hath plain reference to gods promulgating of the law , by voice out of the midds of fyre , exod. 19. 18. 19. & 20. 1 — 18. deut. 4. 11. 12. afterwards those & other lawes were written by moses in a book , exod. 24. 4 and god himself vvrote the ten words on tables of stone : not then at pentecost , but 40. dayes after , deut. 9. 9. 10. even so the fyery doctrine of the gospel was first uttered by voice , and afterwards written in books , luk 1. 1. 3. act. 1. 1. &c. ioh. 20. 30. 31. the book then was not proper to them , ( as m. s. feighneth , ) but common also with vs. god by moses “ first spake , then wrote to his church : christ by his apostles , first spake , then wrote also , to the same church : and though the * son of thonder wanted no gift of utterance by voice , yet christ † bad him write : when if he had pleased he could have sent him to speak . and * blessed is he that readeth , and they that heare the words of that prophesie , and keep those things vvhich are vvritten therin : but cursed is he that despiseth reading of the lords book , and dissvvadeth the church from that use thereof ; by colourable reasons causing the † blind to goe out of the vvay : and all people should say , amen . 10. because as all the worship which moses taught began in the letter outwardly , and so proceeded inwardly to the spirit of the faithful : so contraryweise all the worship of the n. testament signified by that typicall worship of moses , must begin at the spirit , and not at the letter originally . 2 cor. 3. 6. 8. 1 cor. 12. 7. or els the heavenly thing is not answerable to the similitude therof . the true and proper worship which moses taught israel was the worship of god in spirit and truth , deut. 5. 7. 8. and 6. 4. 5. 6. though he led them herevnto , under veiles and shadowes , and by the covenāt of works brought them to christ , who doeth both that covenant and shadowes away as the wise did vnderstand ; psal. 32. 1. 2. with rom. 4. 4. 5. 6. 7. psalm . 40. 6. and 51. 6. — 16. &c. vvith heb. 10. 8. 9. their spiritual vvorship , proceeded from the spirit and hart unto god , 1 king. 8. 22. 23. 33. 35. 38. &c. ezra , 9. 5. 6. &c. nehem. 9. 5. 6. &c. of the legal worship , & m. smythes inept allegorizing therof , is spoken * before ; also his abuse of that scripture , 2 cor. 3. 6. is already ¶ manifested ; vvith his aequivocation about this vvord worship : that the reader may be vvearied , to have the same things oft repeated . onely novv the falshood and snare of these reasons against reading gods vvord , being discovered : let him learne to bevvare of satans deceipt . for the mouth of an heretik is a deep pit , like the * strange vvomans : he with whom the lord is angrie shal fall therin . after this m. sm. feighneth 4. obiections for bookworship , as he termeth it ; and then frameth ansvvers as he seeth good ; but ever and anon retyring to his old skonce of spiritual worship , thinking therby to vvard off all blovves . though it be a vvearynes to follovv such an empty clovvd ; yet for help to the vveak , i vvil briefly shew his vanity . reading in the old testament was commanded by moses , deut. 31. 9-13 . was amplified by david , 1 chron. 16. & 25. was practised by josiah 2 chrō . 34. 30. by ezra and nehemiah , neh. 8. 8. and 9. 3. allowed by our saviour christ , luk. 4. 16. & by the apostles , act. 13. 14. 15. and reported as a thing of ancient approved continuance . act. 15. 21. to this hs answereth ; first , the reading commanded by moses was onely once every 7. yere , deut. 31. 10. 11. and therefore it was no part of ordinary worship , and there is no commandement in moses , given eyther to the preists or levites , for ordinary reading of the law in the tabernacle . secondly , hence it foloweth , that reading in the old testament , was no part of the worship of the tabernacle or temple , or of the service performed by the preists therin , &c. thirdly , therfore reading was of another nature performed in the utter court or synagogue or elswhere , eyther by the levites or any other learned men of what tribe soever : math. 23. 2. luk. 4. 16. act. 13. 14. and 15 , 21. deut. 31. 9 . -11 . 1 chron. 16. 4. 7. 37. 39. & 15. 1. 8. & 28. 13. 2 chron. 34. 14. 30. 31. neh. 8. & 9. and so no part of worship properly so called , but onely a ceremonial ground or foundation of inward or outward spiritual worship common to the churches of all ages . lastly it is not deneyed but that reading now is to be used in the church : onely we say it is not a part of spiritual worship , or a lawful meanes in time of spiritual worship . m. smyth cannot see any commandement in moses for ordinary reading of the law in the tabernacle : and no marvel , for neyther could all the sadducees see any doctrine in moses that taught the resurrection of the dead ; but christ could † find it by necessary consequence : moses commanded “ the feast of boothes to be kept seven dayes to ●he lord , mentioning but holy convocations & sacrifices : m. sm. ( i dare say ) will not gather reading , out of this commandement . but ezra the preist and all israel with him , saw it here implyed and practised it , * by reading the book of the law of god , every day , from the first day unto the last : when they kept this feast . if every seventh day was to be sanctified in israel , & all things be sanctified by the word and prayer ; and in the synagogues they sanctified the sabbathes by “ reading the scriptures : reason mought teach us , that the tabernacle was not behind the synagogues in holynes . and where findeth m. sm. a commaundement to read the law in the synagogues ? yet was it commanded , or els it was will worship and vanitie . the ordinance for levi to ¶ teach israel gods law ; was commandment ynough both to read and preach it , as they did dayly : and they were not so dul or carnal , but they could wel perceive this to belong to their charge and ministerie . but here m. sm. sayth , that the reading in israel was no part of worship properly so called : forgetting himself ( it seemeth ) when elswhere he sayth , that the * worship that beginneth in the book , is from the letter or ceremonie and so is not properly of the new testament but of the old ; and againe that , † book-worship is iudaisme and so antichristian ; and idolatrie now vnder the new testament ; and againe , that “ christ shut the book in the synagogue to signifie that that ceremonie of bookworship , or ministerie of the letter was now exspired . thus fighteth he against himself ; one while they had book worship ; an other while it was no part of worship ; & if properly so called help not here at a need , m. sm. wil be found a calumniator both of vs , and of israel , and of christ himself . for he would have his reader think that we whom he opposeth , made arguments for bookworship , which here he answereth , wheras we never spake or thought of reading to be worship in such a sense , as he would draw it vnto , nor othervveise worship then reading vvas in the synagogues , by christ himself , neyther vvas there controversie about worship at all , but onely whether it were gods word or mans , that we read in the church , in the worship of god. but now to cloak his blasphemous error , he hath dived into his wit , to bring out a distinction of properly so called : so cogging the reader with the * die of deceit , and calumniating vs. and hath he not also injuried israel in charging them vvith book worship , and belyed christ himself , that he should use and finish a ceremonie of book worship ? when yet here he granteth it vvas of another nature , it vvas no part of worship properly so called : it vvas that vvhich is cōmon to the churches of all ages . as one tossed in the sea of error , so reedeth this adversary to and fro , and staggereth like a drunken man. the second objection he forgeth thus . reading is commanded in the new testament , col. 7. 16. 1 thes. 5. 27. and a blessing promised therto , rev. 1●5 . and the cōmandement is that it be practised in the church : therfore it is a part or meanes of the worship of the new testament . the summe of his answer hereunto is . not everie thing performed in the church , is a part of spiritual worship : for al the parts of publik administration of the kingdom ar done in the church , and yet cannot be said to be parts of spiritual worship properly so caled chap. 1 , and 2. properly so called , is a common vizar of deceit , puld off before as here it shal be agayn . for m. smyth divided the whole leiturgie of the church , into actions of the kingdom and of the preisthood of the saincts . chap. 1. and 2. the actions of administring the preisthood , he made to be actions of concord and union : and of these generally he sayth , they be actions of spiritual worship properly so called . the actions of administring the kingdom , he made to be actions of opposition , difference plea and strife : and of them generally he sayth , they are not actions of spiritual worship properly so caled . now here and often he deneyeth reading of the scriptures to be such spiritual worship , therfore it is no action of the preisthood ; therfore no action of concord or union . so when the preists and levites read the law in the synagogues , and at their † solemn feasts ; we may not say , they did any action of the preisthood ; and when christ read the prophet esaias , luk. 4. we may not say he did an action of concord or union ; & when * paul would have his epistle read in the churches of colosse & laodicea ; and christ would have the “ revelation read of al , we must not understand them to meane reading as an action of concord or union in the church ; for then it must be an action of the preisthood , and consequently worship properly so called : which m. sm. wil by no meanes admit of : for he hath limited their bounds : and if any read the scriptures in the church as an action of concord and union , he wil draw it as by the haire of the head , along these grounds , to be † antichristian & idolatrous ; so setteth he his * mouth against heaven . yet reading he granteth , but it must be of an other nature : and what is that trow we ? he is loth to speak : of the preisthood it is no part ; and in handling the actions of the kingdom , he specifieth it not ; onely there he sayth , that bookes of al sorts may be produced for finding out of the truth : and he quoteth among other act. 7. 22. and 17. 28. 1 cor. 15. 33 , tit. 1. 12. where the learning of the aegyptians , and testimonies of the hethen poets are alleged : and further he nameth particularly translations , dictionaries , histories , chronicles , commentaries . &c. behold here what place this man alloweth the reading of the scriptures , yea even of the originals : they must not be read but by way of opposition , difference , plea and strife ; they must not be read but where when and as histories , chronicles , commentaries , books of hethen poets and al other like , may be read and produced : so they are tollerable , otherweise there is no place allowed them : though elswhere he † esteemeth better of them then of other writings . but in the actions of the preisthood , in the actions of concord or union , to read them is idolatrie . what haeretik professing christ could more have sought the disgrace of gods holy book ; then thus to shut it quite out of gods worship , allowing it no other place , by these his wicked grounds , then iulian the apostata christs deadly enemy , would and did allow it ( though he esteemed worse of it ) in his blasphemous writings . for eyen he in cases of opposition , plea and strife , * alleged the testimonies of holy scriptures , among other writings ; but in his worship of his gods he would none of them . no marvel though god have stroken this man like elymas with the blindnes of anabaptisme ; it is a just recompence of his former error : that as he would have deprived the church of the use of the scriptures , the instrument of gods covenant : so himself now should be deprived of the covenant with abraham and his seed , and become an alien from “ the common wealth of israel . but let us proceed with his answer . moreover ( sayth he ) when he commandeth his epistles to be read in the churches , his meaning is not strictly literal : that is that the very words which he wrote should be repeated verbatim out of the book : but his meaning is that the sense of the words or meaning of the apostle should be related , whither by reading the very words , by expounding the meaning by interpreting or translating . &c. loe here the shifts of haeretiks . paul willeth the church † to read his epistles , yea * chargeth them in the lord , to read them to al the brethren ; and writeth to them again , to “ keep the instructions , taught by his epistle : m. smyth sayth the meaning is not strictly literal , that the words which he wrote should be repeated : but the sense ralated . as if paul wāted fit words to set down his meaning , & they that should read , could tel it better . he that readeth , must read words as they ar written , specially in gods book , & epistles from the holy ghost , wherein † no one word is vaine idle or unprofitable , no word misplaced or out of order : and he that shal presume to add or diminish or change the order in reading gods writings , doth wickedly , and * is neer unto the curse . if things in reading be difficult , god hath given gifts unto men to open and expound them , to the understanding of al : but this expounding is not reading . reading is first , exactly to the letter ; exposition cometh after with such words as god putteth in the expositors hart ; as by “ daniels practise , we may learn. neyther are the words of the expositor comparable to the words of the writer ; these being divine , are al as silver † fined seven times , no drosse mixed with them . the other being humane , ( i speak of ordinary men as we are ) and shewing the mans judgmēt that expoundeth them , are mixed with humane infirmities , mistakings , and sometime deadly errors . wherfore reading of the original scriptures wherof here we treat , must be strictly literal , as is in the book . translations are after to be spoken of ; and is here vainly inserted , for paul wrote in greek , which al in colosse , laodicea , thessalonica , and the whol country over , used as their vulgar tongue , that they needed none to translate for them . further m. s. answereth , that the apostle wrote upon particular occasions , for particular ends , and the commandment of reading was special in these respects to them &c. yet acknowledgeth he at last , an absolute necessity of reading ; onely he denyeth it to be a lawful help or part of spiritual worship . &c. as the apostles , so the prophets wrote upon particular occasions ; yet is there a general use , for † whatsoever is fore written , is fore written for our learning , as paul himself teacheth . wherefore this cavil is frivolous . an absolute necessitie of reading the scriptures now , as they were read in israel , and in the christian churches , and to the same end : is al that we hold , and stand for . which how it is worship is before shewed . the apostle 1 tim. 4. 13. 16. commanded timothee and so al elders to attend to reading : wher reading is ioyned with exhortation and doctrine ; & so importeth , that it is to be understood of the ioyning of reading in the time of spiritual worship . this obiection ( as the rest ) is made of m. smyths own fashion ; and was never thus framed by us . and here he excepteth , that it is not spoken of the execution of his office , but of preparing himself to the execution of it . &c. that reading in the publik church is necessary , he is forced to acknowledge : and in that we rest . if he think this place is not meant of publik , but of private reading : he may keep his iudgment . my self see no cause why it may not also be meant of the publik execution of his office ; for paul departing from ephesus , “ besought timothee to abide there and look unto the church ; and after † wrote this letter for his direction how to behave himself in gods howse , whiles he taried away , and in it sayth , * til i come attend to reading , to exhortation , to doctrine . where seing al these are publik ecclesiastical actions , ( as m. sm. himself granteth , ) seing they are joyned thus togither , & with this limitatiō til j come ; what letteth but these al should be executed by him in publik ? private reading for his own preparation , was to be alwaies , and not onely til pauls coming . and as for such preparation , it is mentioned after , in vers . 15 , and both again jointly vers . 16. for the salvation of himself and others . let it be granted that the apostles and evangelists used no books being extraordinay men , and having the extraordinary direction of the spirit , for they needed no such helps of books as we doe : yet wee being ordinarie men have need of books . &c. this last objection , i reject as frivolous , and falsly intimated to be ours . the apostles i am sure had no greater measure of the spirit then christ : yet he † read publikly in the book : and so did holy men of god before * him : & publik reading is grāted yet necessary : therfore we are to use it . though we have more need of the book then the apostles , ( our memories and judgements not being sanctified like theirs , ) yet had they their infirmities , and “ used books . but it is gods ordinance of reading , that we stād for : which how m s. hath sought to undermine , and how he is snared in the work of his own hands ; is worthy to be noted with † higgajon selah , and meditated to the praise of god. of translations . the first and onely controversie between m. sm. and us being about the scriptures translated or overset into other tongues , which he affirmed to be apocrypha and humane writings : how ever he hath sought to excuse and hide his error , yet hath he no wil to forsake it , as appeareth by this , that having spoken of writings 1. by men inspired of god , as the prophets and apostles , and 2. by ordinarie men of al sorts ; he shuffleth the translations of the holy scriptures among these latter ; and affirmeth that * there is no better warrant to bring translations of scripture written into the church , and to read them as parts or helps of worship , then to bring in expositions , resolutions , paraphrasts and sermons upon the scripture , seing al these are equally humane in respect of the work equal ly divine in respect of the matter they handle . very impious is this comparison which thus matcheth a mans comment or written sermon , with gods written word set over into an other tongue : for it debaseth the majestie of gods law , and advanceth too high , the basenes of men . translation is that in writing , which interpretation is in speaking : namely the expressing of an others mind : but commenting or expounding , is the expressing of ones own mind or understanding . the scriptures first written in hebrue , and secondarily written in english : do set forth one and the same word & mind of god unto us , though which different letters & sownds : as emmanuel is interpreted and translated god with us , mat. 1 23. messias is interpreted chrjst in greek ; anojnted in english. iohn . 1. 41. here the hebrue , greeke and english differ onely in outward letter & sound ; the meaning substance or essential form being one in them al , & the word of god , so caled by relation , because the mind of god is made knowne hereby to the mind or understanding of man. the different letter or character changeth not the nature of the thing : for if it did , then emmanuel written by † matthew in greek letters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and by * esaias in hebrew letters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , should not be one and the same name of christ ; and so the apostle should be made a falser , & our gospel betrayed to faithlesse iewes . the different sound or pronūciation changeth not the nature of the thing : for then messias and christ shoul not be one and the same ; and so the gospel and new testament , and our faith were overthrown ; and more then iewish superstition should prevail . but god who hath sanctified by his * spirit , all sounds and languages to the ear : hath also sanctified by the same spirit all † letters and characters to the eye ; as th'apostles practise sheweth , writing with greek letters , words and phrases ; which had beene profaned by lying histories and lascivious poets , unto all manner idolatry and wickednes . herevpon it followeth , that the word of god , in whatsoever letter or language it be written or spoken vnto vs ; is the word of god stil ; so to be reverenced and regarded : and not to be basely and profanely counted among humane and apocryphal writings . a comment or exposition of scripture , as for example , vpon this word emmanuel , sheweth the mans iudgement mind or understanding that commenteth ; telleth the reason of this name why it was given to christ , discourseth of his godhed , of his manhood , of the uniting of these two in one person , of the end and use of these , and many such like things . this being done by ordinary men , is properly an humane writing , ( though it may be , agreeable to the word of god , ) shewing by letters as by signes , what is the mind or understanding of such a man in this mysterie of christs incarnation : even as paul sayth of his owne divine writing ; when ye read ye may know myne understanding in the mysterie of christ. ephes. 3. 4. now god hath by his prophets and apostles written to his church a short summ of his mind and will ; guiding and * carying them , and † inspiring their writings with his good spirit ; that there should be nothing but “ words of truth , faithfulnes , equitie and perfection in them ; that men mought have a sure ground for their faith and actions , throughout all generations . and minding mans weaknes , the holy ghost hath omitted to write * many things , ( though otherweise in their nature very good : ) penning such onely as were needful and profitable for our faith and salvation : giving vs warning also to take heed of other things , because there is no end of making many books , and much reading is a wearynes to the flesh . ecclesiast . 12. 12. but because in these scriptures , somethings are † hard to be vnderstood , and all men know not how to use and apply gods word unto their times , estates , actions , &c. therefore hath christ given * gifts unto men , to open and apply the scriptures for the edification of the church vnto the worlds end : alwayes binding them both teachers and hearers , to the foundation layd † by the prophets and apostles , whose writings are sufficient to make men wise “ unto salvation through the faith which is in christ iesns . for this cause the holy scriptures are necessarie for al churches , to be read & expounded unto the people : & as every nation differeth in language , so to have the word spoken and written in their vulgar tongue , which change of the tongue or letter , changeth not the nature of the word spoken or written , but it is stil divine and heavenly . onely because in this changing or translating , imperfections , wants , errors may fal in : therfore the first writings as the prophets & apostles penned them , are to be made the absolute canon , rule , touchstone , whereby al translations are to be tried : by which being tried & found faithful , it is the same word of god , in what language or letter soever , & differeth as much frō humane cōmentaries or expositions , as heaven dooth from earth . but mr. sm. avoucheth mens written sermons or cōments upon the scripture , & the scripture it self written in english , to be equally humane in respect of the work equally divine in respect of the matter they handle . of this his bold and false assertion he maketh no proof at al , it is a speculation of his own hart . two carnal reasons he setteth down , which are these . to translate the originals into any mother tongue is as wel and asmuch the worke of a mans wit and learning , as to analyse the scriptures rhetorically or logically , to collect doctrines and uses theologically , to give expositions and interpretations of places doubtful . where first if m. s. mean the action of translating simply , without reference to the mater and thing translated , he doth but dally and seek to deceiv : for writing , printing , translating are al alike humane actions , but the things written printed translated , are differēt , some good some evil , some of god , some of men and of the divil . the books of moses written printed or translated , are gods law ; the book of mahomet written printed or translated , is the divils law : the actions of writing , printing , translating , are mere humane actions in all of these . now if because translating is an humane action , therefore the thing translated must also be humane , & the work of mans wit and learning : then also because writing and printing are humane actions , therefore the bible written or printed in hebreue greek & al languages , must likewise be humane , and the work of mens wit and learning : and then there can be no divine scriptures but the very first copies which the prophets & apostles wrote with their owne hands : and if satan could perswade this ; he would be glad . secondly if mr. sm. meaneth the thing translated , as moses law , davids psalmes or other like in english : that these are as wel and as much the work of a mans wit and learning ; as an exposition of doubtful places in them or doctrines and uses collected from them ; he teacheth wicked error , which al of judgment & cōscience wil abhorr . the holy scriptures faithfully expressed in english or any language , is the work of gods wisdome & unserchable knowledge : and cannot without injury to his majestie , be said to be the work of mans wit & learning ; though man have used his skil in writing or translating it according to the original copie given of god. this plea of mr. sm. is like as if ieroboam should have sayd ; the * cherubims and † the brazen bulls in solomons temple , are as wel and as much the work of mans wit & skil as my * golden calves ; & if they may be admitted into the house and worship of god , then why not these ? if m. sm. should answer that the cherubims and bulls which solomon made , were commanded of god , and from the divine pattern , though humane art did make them ; but ieroboams calves were from his own hart : so answer i in this case ; the translation is from the divine pattern of gods original book , and commanded to be made and used ; but to write comments or homilies to read in the church , is frō a mans own hart , and hath no commandement or warrant from god so to be used ; but are forbidden . eccles. 12. 12. secondly he sayth the translator cannot conceive nor expresse in writing the whol mind of the holy spirit conteyned in the originals , but onely some good part of it : the expositor , paraphrast , commentator may expresse as much as the translator , yea and in respect of some particulars , as hebraisms , grecismes and the like considerations much more . if a translator cannot expresse the whol mind of the spirit in al the bible , by his interpretation litteral or grammatical : then much lesse can the expositor expresse the whol mind of the spirit in the bible , by his exposition theological . for it is a thowsand times easier for a translator to do his duty to the ful , then for the expositor : yea this latter is utterly unpossible , i say not onely for one man , but for all the men in the vvorld . though the translator cannot expresse to the full every vvord and sentence in the bible , yet the most part he may ; vvheras the expositor cannot do any at all , but is still to seek all dayes of his life , and they that come after him also . hebraismes cannot alwayes be expressed , through defect of the language : yet translation is needful , and the translator is blamelesse . for example , this name god called in hebrue aelohim , gen. 1. 1. is in greek translated theos , and that by the apostles often in the new testament . here is a vvant in the language , for aelohim is in form the plural number , signifying the trinitie ; yet joyned with a word of the singular number bara , he created : signifying the vnitie of the persons in the godhed . such a phrase the geek tongue vvanted : therefore the apostles admit of the greek propriety , doing the ful dutie of translators & the defect resteth in the language , of which they were not lords . and that the lord respecteth not so much the words and phrases , as the matter meant by them ; infinite examples in the scriptures do manifest . but whereunto leadeth this cavil ? what if all cannot be expressed in the translation , shall we therefore have none in the church ? then neyther may we have any preaching by the voice of man ; for none can fully expresse in his sermon , all things that god intendeth by a place of scripture , or any ground of religion . and if preaching must be vsed , though many humane infirmities be mixed with it ; then also reading the scriptures ( and consequently the translations to them that know not the originals , ) must be used , though fewer humane infirmities be mixed therewithall ; seing these both are the ordinances of god , as before hath bene proved . but then m. sm. wil draw commentaries and homilies into the church also . but that is denyed to be gods ordinance . he hath * appointed the lively voice of his graces in the mouthes of his servants to be heard in the church , for the opening and applying of the word vnto them : but not their writings to be read . and because of some infirmities in translations , to disgrace them , as this man dooth , and match them with commentaries ; it is capele●●in ( as the † apostle speaketh , ) to play the false vintner with the wine of gods word . for as such a falser to make sale of his mixture , wherein some wine , much water , yea perhaps some puddle water is brewed togither , mought say , you can have no wine but such as is turned out of the first vessel ; and it cannot be in the turning of it out , but some of the spirit and strength of the wine vvill vapour avvay , some tast it wil have of the nevv cask ; therefore you may as well drink of this liquor , for in respect of the vessell they are both alike changed , in respect of the matter they are both alike wine . let m. sm. therefore cease his odious comparisons of the translation with the comment : or else let him shew us some comment or sermon written upon any text , wherin at the least there is not water and wine , and perhaps death in the pot . of the lxxii . interpreters . here † m. smyth before he proceed further , takes up an accusation against the church of israel , who in the dayes of ptolomee philadelphus king of egypt , and at his request sent 72. learned iewes to translate the hebrue bible into greek before the apostles time almost 300. yeares . this their translation ( sayth m. smyth , ) was a grevous syn . 1. for that the covenant of grace ought not to have been preached vnto the gentiles til the fulnes of time mat. 10. 5. 6. 1 tim. 3. 16. rom. 16. 25. 26. with mat. 10. 5. 6. & 28. 19. and therefore that the lxx. by their translation did communicate it to the graecians , before the fulnes of the time , was their greevous syn . i answer in the behalf of israel ; first , by m. smythes divinity , the church of israel * was a carnal people , had a carnal covenant or promise of carnal things , &c. how is it then that he chargeth them here with profaning , the covenant of grace ? and how wil this agree with his grounds of anabaptisme ? secondly , by his divinity also , the scriptures and reading of them , is the mimistration of the letter 2 cor. 3. 6. that is of death & damnation ; as * before hath been handled . how then could the litteral translation & reading therof , be the ministerie or covenant of grace ? the ministration of death , was fit ynough for the gentiles that were to die . or , did it kil them before the tyme ? thirdly i deny his collection from those scriptures against this action : for although the fulnes of time was not yet come , that god would send preachers with the power of his spirit , to convert all nations : yet followeth it not herevpon , that no gentile , no nation , ( no not though they desired it , as king ptolomee desired the bible ; ) mought have the truth imparted unto them . there is no such law made of god ; nay the cōtrarie is playne . for , 1. ther were many strangers , aegyptians & others that went out with israel to the land of canaan , not forbidden nor debarred of grace with israel , exod. 12. 38. nay the law admitted any stranger to circumcision & the passeover , & so to the covenant of grace , exod. 12. 48. 49. 1 cor. 5. 7. 2. the gibeonites which were of the worst sort of hethens , devote to destruction , yet obteyned mercie with god , to be in the covenant of his grace . josh. 9. 27. 2 sam. 21. 1. 2. 5. &c. 3. there were also in solomons time 153. thowsand and 600. strangers , none exempted from partaking with israels mercy . 4. god gave his law to be read even unto strangers also , deut. 31. 12. so far vvas he from vvithholding grace , if any sought it . 5. and solomōd dicating the tēple prayed even * for strāgers , that dvvelt in far countries , ( vvho mought vvhen they heard of gods name , come thither and pray in that house ) that they even all people of the earth mought know gods name , & fear him as did his people israel . all vvhich do shevv the untruth of m. sm. collection , that it vvas a syn for israel to impart the scriptures and covenant of grace to the gentiles . because all the gentiles ought to have been proselytes of the iewes church , and to have come to ierusalem to worship , exod. 12. 43. 49. mat. 23. 15. act , 2. . 10. and ought to have learned their tongue and worship , which was prevented by the lxx. translation . first , this reason enterfeireth vvith the former ; for , if all ought to have beene proselytes : hovv might not the covenant of grace be preached vnto them ? could they be converted vvithout the vvord of the covenant ? here the accuser of the saincts hath † rolled a stone , which is returned unto himself . secondly , their conversion vvas not hindered but furthered by the greek translation ; for many novv might read and hear of gods name , enquire after his truth and finding it , come to ierusalem , and learn that tongue , if they could . so yet the seventie are not found in syn , vvhich helped men to righteousnes . because the hebrue characters and writings were ceremonies , and so ought not to have been prophaned among the grecians by their wr●ings &c. whether the characters were ceremonies or no , the lxx . are innocent of this blame ; for they wrote the bible to the gentils in the greek characters , syllables , words , sounds &c. and not in hebrue . if m. smyth make the substance of the scripture a ceremonie , that is a shadow to be ended and abolished at christs coming , it is † a wicked error . or if he make the characters ceremonies in that sense , it is erroneous : for the hebrues converted to christ may & ought to read the hebrue scriptures in the church , as they were wont in their synagogues . the profaning and abusing of the translated scripture was in deed a syn , in al that so did : so was it if any israelite or stranger profaned the hebrue . yet hebrue copies might goe abroad , notwithstanding the danger of profanation , how much more the greek ? the personal synns of some , may not hinder the publik good . otherweise , at this day bibles should not be printed and commonly sold , because atheists and profane people may buy and abuse them . the scriptures are as much to be reverenced now , as ever they were ; although m. sm. hath laboured their disgrace . if it were unlawful to sing one of davids psalmes in a strange nation as babylon , psal. 137. 4. then much more unlawful was it to translate the scriptures into a strange tongue : for the ceremonial law was bounded within the holy land . if at this day turks captiving christians should ask in scorn and mockage to sing some spiritual song for them to laugh at , i doubt not but we should answer them as the iewes did the babylonians ; & not expose gods word to derision . but if any would hereupon infer , it were syn to translate the scriptures into vulgar tongues , m. s. himself * would condemn him : like mesure must be meted to himself , for these frivolous reasons . the scriptures were not ceremonies , ( though there was some figurative use “ of the book of the law , ) but if they had been , yet this is an error in m. smyth . to bound them within the holy land . for circumcision was a shadow , ( or as he calleth it , a ceremonie ) yet did they it in babylon , and many shadowes moe . and for the scriptures , who doubteth but the iewes had and used them in babel , which was out of the holy land : yea some of the scripture was written and sent to babylon , as ier. 29. 1. &c. some written in babylon , as the prophesies of ezekiel and daniel , ezek. 1. 1. &c. and some written in the babylonian language , and not in hebrue , as ezra . 4. 7. 8. &c. dan. 2. 4. 5. &c. wherfore if any babylonian would have sought for god , the scriptures should not have been deneyed him . the translation &c. is contradictorie to the lords mercy to the iewes church , and their special privileges . psal. 147. 19. 20. rom. 3. 1. 2. act. 10. 28. and 22. 1. 2. 3. 4 — 18. eph. 2. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. act. 13. 46. 47. 48. rom. 16. 25. 26. this reason is in a manner the same with the first , and so before answered . the iewes privileges even then appeared , that the gentiles must have the instrument of mercy , the scriptures from them . and that god gave them this not for themselves onely , but also for the gentiles occasionally , is before proved . generall mercy i know there was not , as is now under christ. peters fact was caled in question , about conversing and eating with them , being uncircumcised , act. 11 , 2. 3. not for letting them partake of the privilege of gods word : for it was permitted the gentiles to hear the word read and preached in the synagogues , as appeareth acts. 13. 42. 44. 46. 48. and how was it contradictorie to gods mercy to the iewes , when his prophets wrote some of the scriptures in the hethens language : as did daniel and ezra , which are mentioned before . because that seeing the hebrue writings were ceremonies , it was unlawful for the septuagint to change them from their proper kind , and to picture them out by the greek writings for the greeks use . here agayn is a repetition of the third reason , refuted before : and if he wil he may make it twentie ; by a little change of the words . but the weight of the argument is shewed to be too leight : and greek writings for greeks use , was no more unlawful , then chaldee writing for the chaldeans use ; which the lxx . had learned by daniels example , if no way els . because the lxx did of purpose concele many things , as iudging the gentils unworthy to know them fearing also least they should profane such holy mysteries , wherein their consciences told them plainly that their translation was syn . also they did pervert many things of purpose , add somthing , and infinitely corrupt their translation , which was their greevous synn . this last reason seemes to come from m. smyths gealous head , or surmising hart : and it is overthrown by himself . for a little after he † sayth , it is manifest by histories that the lxx . translation is lost ; and this that goeth under the name of the lxx . is a patcherie made out of ancient writings . if this be so , how knowes this accuser , that they infinitely corrupted their translation ? seeing he never saw their work , which long synce is lost ? belike he thought it might be so ; and therfore he wrote it was so . if he make not better proof of this his heighnous charge ; al men may see whose sonne he is , that so calumniateth the saincts : & readeth without book not onely their infinite errors , but what their consciences told them also . his inference hereupon , that the apostles would never account so synful a translation to be holy scripture coming from the holy ghost , nor approve the use of it in the greek churches ; this faleth with his weak reasons : there being no such greevous syn proved against the greek translation : but rather we may judge it a blessed work of god , that hereby brought many gentiles to be proselytes , and prepared them for the receiving of the gospel . albeit i deney not but errors were in the translation , some of which as occasion was , the apostles in their writings did amend . and whereas he further sayth , there could be no use of the lxx translation for reading in the latine church of the romans . i answer , first if there was use of it , in the greek churches onely : it is ynough to warrant like use of translations in al churches , in what tongue soever . secondly , there could be use of it even in the church of rome , where the greek tongue was commonly known before the apostles time , as † tullie testifyeth , and the poets * taxed the people for it . and if they understood not greek , is it likely that paul would have written his epistle to the romans in greek , as he did ? seeing he misliked speaking ( and consequently writing , ) in an unknown tongue . 1 cor. 14. 6. 18. 19. m. sm. having spent his strength , ( though in vain ) to heap syn upon israel for translating the bible : “ procedeth unto arguments against reading translations in time of worship . where first i wil give the reader advertisement , how contrary this enemie is to himself : and then i wil come to his frawd against the truth . of the scriptures set over into other languages , commonly caled translations ; he thus affirmeth † a translation is as much and as truly an humane writing , as the apocrypha ( so commonly caled ) writings are . againe he sayth , translations are not the pure word of god , and so contrary to eccles. 12. 10. mat. 15 , 9. agayn , * that translations of scripture , and written sermons upon the scripture , are equally humane in respect of the work , equally divine in respect of the matter they handle . these and the like blasphemous opinions he sought to infect our church withal , for which he was resisted : these laboured he by word and writing to confirm , with sophistical reasons , the pillars of al heresie . yet even in this same book , he pulleth down this his former uncouth building ; it being the nature of error , as the “ foolish woman , to destroy her howse with her own hands . for afterwards he writeth thus , † the translation agreable to the originals , is a secondary scripture , yet much inferiour to the originals . so then it is not apocryphal , unlesse he use a fallacie in this word scripture : for we understand hereby ( as christ * himself did ) holy scripture , inspired of god : as 2 tim. 3. 15. 16. it may be read ( sayth he ) in the church , and sung in tunes . then ( say i ) it is not as the apocryphal ( so commonly called ) writings are : for their very name signifying hidden , teacheth that they are not to be read in the publik church . jt may ( sayth he ) be expounded in the church . but so ( say i ) may not homilies be , nor apocryphal writings . and if m. s. in his synagogue doe read and expound such scriptures to his people , he maketh thē with himself notorious idolaters . exod. 20. 4. 5. 2 tim. 3. 16. 17. eccle. 12. 10. the matter of it ( sayth he ) agreable to the originals , is inspired to weet , of god. but the matter ( say i ) of the apocryphal books , as iudith , tobie &c. though exactly translated , is not inspired vnlesse of the divil ; for lyes and fables are in them both , the translations i mean , and the original greek copies . jt may be made a ground of our faith ( sayth he ) and an instrument to try doctrine by . then is it ( say i ) not apocryphal but canonical : for it is made a † canon , that is , a rule of our faith and walking . but far be it that humane apocryphal writings should have such vse in the church of god ▪ wil m. sm. ground his faith upon this , that ther are * seven holy angels , which present the prayers of the saincts ; and that lying raphael , ( of the kinred of “ azarias , ) is one of them ? wil he ground his faith upon this , that † the smel of the hart and liver of a fish perfumed on the coles , wil so drive away the divil , that he shal never come againe any more ? or wil he have his disciples to try their religion by such crooked instruments ? no marvell though they be led with him into the ditch , when they try his doctrine by that which they professe to be as much and as truly an humane writing , as the apocrypha ( comonly so called ) writings are . for it argueth that eyther they use the bible but for a shew and colour , ( seing they esteme so vily of it : ) or else that they honour the base borne apocrypha , as inspired of god. which is the very syn & snare , that they have sought to bring upon us . now let vs examine his arguments . 1 thes. 5. 21. try all things , keep that good thing . but no man ignorant of the tongues can trie whither the translation be fit or good : & therfore no man ignorant of the tongues , can strictly keep or read a translation in time of worship . here first m. sm. striking at the translation , mysseth that , and hitteth onely the ignorant reader of it : for if one have skil of the tongues , & know it to be truely translated ; this reason maketh nothing against his reading , but for it . so m. sm. playes the sophister , to argue against a holy thing , because of the ignorances & infirmities of some men . he mought thus have cavilled against reading the law in israel ; that no man blind of sight ( as was “ ahijah the prophet ) could trie whither the original scriptures were truly written or not . secondly , if he proceed further as he hath begun , hereafter he may come with like reason thus : try al things , keep the good thing : but no man ignorant of the tongues , can trie whither the interpretation of scriptures which the minister giveth in preaching the word , or any text that he allegeth in his doctrine be fitt or good ; then mind what conclusion the divil wil make hereupon , in a simple mans conscience : to draw him to doubt of , and consequently to forsake and despise , not onely al reading , but also preaching of the word , because he being ignorant of the tongues , cannot judge or trie whither that which is read or taught be true ; according to the original scriptures . and thus he falleth into the snare of satan , which mr. sm. here hath set in secret . thirdly , this reason overthwarteth that which elsewhere the man granteth ; that the † translation may be made the ground of our faith and an instrument to try doctrine by . this being so , how dooth pauls counsel ( trie al things &c. ) make against translations ? rom. 14 23. 1. tim. 1. 4. 7. heb. 11. 6. whatsoever cōmeth not from faith is syn . but no man ignorant of the tongues can of faith use the translation , seing he cannot examin it whither it be good or bad ; and so beleve or refuse it . therefore it is not of faith in him , and so it is syn for him , to use it before the eye in time of worship . like sophistrie and impietie is in this argument as in the former ; for it concludes not the thing unlawful in it selfe , but onely in him that is ignorant of the tongues ; and his faith , it seeks to shake . for ther is no faith without * gods word , and where to have this word he cannot tell . if it be set over from the originals to his mother tongue in writing , he cannot trie whither it be good or bad : if the minister translate or interpret it by voice , the poor man is as much uncertain , or more , whither the teacher speak true or false . thus can he neyther read nor hear of sayth , if m. smyths engine once take him : but eyther he must look for enthusiasmes , or revelations from heaven ; ( vvhich some anabaptists have dreamed of ; ) or els , he faleth to profanenes or desperation . and it is not m. sm. distinction of worship properly so called , that here vvil comfort the troubled sovvl ; for he must doe † al , especially his ecclesiastical & religious actions of fayth , and not his proper vvorship onely . yea the serpent wil build more on this rotten foundation , and assault him also that hath skil in the tongues and trouble him , saying ; though thou hast knowledge of hebrue and greek , yet hovv canst thou tel vvhither this that thou readest , be the pure vvord of god ? there be many * ievvish fables and humane “ traditions , that have been vvritten in hebrue , and in greek also : and vvhither god spake or vvrote these things , as novv thou readest them , thou knovvest not : and therfore canst not of faith make this book a ground of thy religion and vvorship . and if thou vvilt credit m. smyth , loe he telleth thee , that † as antichrist hath polluted al gods ordinances , so hath he violated the original scriptures . do not thou therfore build thy fayth upon the scriptures any longer ; but beleev that which m. smyth and his like , shal prophesie out of their harts , for so he * sayth , holy men prophesied before moses time : ( and indeed so some prophesyed “ in ezekiels time , though they vvere blamed for it : ) & † books are in the nature of pictures and images , and therfore ceremonies , and reading a book is ceremonial ; and † reading prophesies in the time of the law , was a type of prophesying : and * reading the words of the law out of the book , signified the lettering of the words of god out of the hart : and “ christ fulfilled the law of reading , and shut the book in the synagogue , to signifie that the ceremonie of book-worship or ministerie of the letter was now exspired and finished : and now † the worship of the new testament must proceed originally from the hart and spirit . wherfore lay aside the scriptures , and hear what men shal prophesy out of their harts ; orif that like thee not , exspect thou revelations and visions from heaven . thus m. sm. as a * snare on mispah , & a net spred upon tabor , hath layd in his book such a groundwork against the script ▪ as fitteth the divils purpose to intāgle mens sovvls ; although to deceive the birds withall , he hath strewed some wheat at the mouth of the pit , as , that translations may be made the ground of our faith , & an instrument to trie doctrine by : &c. so breathing out of one mouth , both hot and cold . a translation made verbatim from the originals is absurd by reason of the difference of the dialects , & therfore unlawful seing it edifieth not , 1 cor. 14. 26. a translation paraphrastical or a paraphrast if it be lawful in time of worship to be read then why not a written sermon . these are but blocks , to make the blind stumble . gods word may be set over into english , for the most part word for word without absurditie : and where our language wilnot bear the strict proprietie of the original phrases ; we are warranted by the apostles allegations of scriptures in an other tongue , to use such words as the language wil affoard , to expresse the other withall . though tongues differ one from another in proprietie of speeches : yet god hath sanctified them all , for instruments to convey his word and law unto us ; and this in writing as well as in speaking . dan. 2. 4. &c. act. 1. 4. 8. 9. — 11. & 15. 23. rev. 1. 11. 19. written sermons are the works of men : gods book set over into english , though with some diversitie of phrase , is gods book and word stil ; for ( as hath been shewed ) it is not the letter or sound , but the thing signified & meant by them , which properly is gods word , and which we are so to reverence . but m. sm. having granted that the translation may be read in the church , made a ground of our faith &c. and now asking why a written sermon is not also lawful in gods worship : eyther alloweth humane writings to be read in the church , as wel as gods writings translated , which is a notable error ; or els he cavilleth against the truth , contrary to his cōscience : and in his reasoning , dealeth like a false coyner ; who because the gold of the common wealth is not so fine perhaps , as the gold of * ophir or † vphaz : sayth to the merchant , if such course metal may be taken for mony ; then why not brasse or copper ? a paraphrast , commentarie or exposition upon a chapter which conteyneth more of the contents of the originals and the holy ghosts meaning is vnlawful to be read in time of worship : therefore a translation of a chapter which conteyneth lesse , is unlawful also to be read in time of worship . first by mr. sm. grownd layd in the “ beginning ; a paraphrase , comment or any humane writing , may be used in the administration of christs kingdome , in like sorte as the scriptures ; which is erroneous . secondly he addeth more to his error , in teaching here that a cōmentary hath more of the contents of the holy ghosts meaning then the text it self in english or othertrāslatiōs . his cōclusiō therfore bringeth forth vanitie , and ¶ his belly hath prepared deceit . no cōmentary in the world made by an ordinarie man , conteyneth the meaning of god , so as the text it self in a faithful translation of the book or chapter dooth . thirdly , mr. sm. confesseth that † the matter of the translation agreable to the originals is inspired : but not the writing or character . if the thing written be inspired of god , then is it canonical scripture , 2. tim. 3. 16. then not apocryphal nor an humane work , as a commentarie : then conteyneth it more of the contents of the originals , then any mans exposition . as for his exception of the writing or character , it is but vanitie : for the apostles had the matter of their writings by inspiration , frō god : as for the writing or character , that was not inspired ▪ but gods word was written in such characters , words , phrases , as the hethen greeks , philosophers and poets , had used long before . lev. 22. 22. mal. 1. 8. 13. 14. mat. 22. 37. rō . 12. 1. 2. ps. 119. 45. & 103. 1. god wil be served with the best we have . but ther is no one translation the best we hav , seing the lord may in time of worship , minister better to him that administreth , if he understand the originals ; if he understand not the originals he hath it not at all , for it is an other mans work ; and therefore no one translation written may be read in time of worship . m. sm. is like one of them that † hunteth the sowles of gods people ; setting reasons as hayes to intangle . no one translation ( sayth he ) is the best we have seing the lord may in time of worship minister a better : as good a reason against reading the translated scriptures ▪ tures , as if he should have sayd unto an israelite , no one sheep of thy pasture is the best thou hast : seeing the lord may in time of worship minister a better , ( as he did the ram * to abraham : ) therfore no one sheep of thym may be offred for sacrifice mal. 1. 8. nay his reason against translations hath not so good a colour as this : for it is certaine that god once ministred a ram to abraham for sacrifice ; but it was never heard that god so ministred an other translated book to read , then that which was brought to be read . the gift of interpreting or expounding by voyce , is of an other kind , and not properly reading , wherof we intreat . but let us follow m. sm. in his circle , & see whither he wil lead us . no translated bible may be read in gods worship , for god may minister a better : what then ? shal i bring the original bible & look on that , exspecting what interpretation god wil give me to speak : seeing i may not read ? not so neyther ( sayth m. s. ) “ the holy original scriptures are not to be reteyned as helps before the eye in time of spiritual worship : so then neyther is that the best sacrifice yet , but i must exspect the lord to minister a better . if neither the translated bible nor the original be the best : where then is the word that is best to be read or uttered to the people ? in a mans owne hart : that must be the book out of which m. sm. wil have gods lavv to be read in his vvorship : al other books are as images and ceremonies , abolished , & ended by christ. though he plead here against translations , colourably ; yet he aimeth at gods book generally , even as his holy prophets and apostles vvrote it . but the vvickednes of this engine is before discovered . also for translations this further i say ; the scriptures in english are the best for to read unto english eares ; better then eyther hebrue or greek , which they cannot hear . and seeing it is needful the scriptures should be read ; the translation is best . yet so , as no christian is tied to the words of the book , but if he know any error in print or tralation , or any better words to expresse gods mind ; he is to do all things for the best unto the church ; giving the sense togither with his reading , as the practise was in israel , nehem. 8. 8. but he that withdraweth corn , the people shal curse him , † sayth solomon : how much more deserveth this mā the curse of gods people , that hath sought to withdraw from them in al their publik worship , the whol scriptures and book of god , whereby the true corn and bread of their sovvles , is broken unto them . deut. 16. 16. 1 chro. 21. 24. eph. 4. 8. rom. 12. 3. we must worship god with our own , not with another mans : with that which cost us somthing , not with that which cost us nothing . but for one ignorant of the tongues to read the translation and offer it to god , is to offer to god an other mans labour not his own , that which cost him nothing , but is an other mans cost , therfore it is unlawful . al vvisdoms vvords † are playn and straight ; but m. smyths are rough and crooked . who ever said before , that men read translations and offred them to god ? he mought as vvel have sayd , vve minister the sacraments unto god. for if he mean , the last end is the glory of god : so is it of al a christian mans actions . did paul vvhen he * charged that his epistle should be read unto al the brethren the saints , mean they should read and offer it unto god ? or had it been for them to except ( as this man here cavilleth ) we must worship god with our own , not with an other mans , with that which cost us something , not with that which cost us nothing : but this epistle cost us nothing , it is another mans cost and paynes : therfore it is unlawful to read it , and offer it to god. if this reason had been ridiculous in them , vvhy they vvould not read pauls epistle : even so is it here in m. smyth , for vve read the bible ( vvhich is gods epistle “ unto us , ) in no other manner , nor to no other end then they read pauls letter vvhich vvas part of † holy scripture ) in the church , and the book costeth us as much , as that cost them . and david vvhich vvould not * offer burnt offrings wtihout cost : vvould he not read , or be at the reading of the book of the lavv in the church , because it cost him nothing , “ but had been vvritten by moses , and freely given unto israel ? never vvas ther heard more childish sophismes . but vvhat if a man translate a book or chapter or text himself and vvriteth it : this is his ovvn cost , i think : & then he may read and offer it to god , or els m. s. cavilling is litle vvorth . reading a translatiō is not cōmanded , nor was ever practised by christ , the apostles , or primitive churches in time of worship , & so being devised by mā , is the account of vain worship mat. 15. 9. and wil-worship col. 2. 23. and so a kind of idolatrie , and therfore the translation is self before the eye in time of worship an idol , and so hath a curse denounced against the use of it in time of worship . rev. 22. 18. exod. 20. 4. 5. though they curse , yet thou wilt blesse , sayth * david to god against his enemies : and so say i against this adversary , who curseth the reading of the scriptures , as a wil-worship ; which god “ hath blessed : so maketh he himself by his blasphemie , a † child of the curse . and by his own mouth let him be judged : for thus he writeth in his book . * mat. 28. christ commandeth to goe teach al nations , and therefore al nations may have the holy scriptures translated into their own vernacular tongue , that thereby they may learn the truth . then further he addeth . the translation agreable to the originals , may be read in the church and sung in tunes , may be expounded in the church , may be made a ground of our faith &c. from whence i reason , if christ commanding the apostles to teach mat. 28. did therby intimate a commandement ( or permission ) of translations to learn the truth by ; and such translations may be read & expounded in the church , & made a ground of our faith : then we & al other christian churches that have made and used translations to this end , are not idolaters , neyther have used wil-worship , nor incurred the curse : but it hangeth over m. s. own head , if he prevent it not by repentance . writing and reading the law is a part of preaching the law , act. 15. 21. deut. 33. 10. with nehem. 8 , 7 , 8 , mat. 28. 19. with 1 thes. 5 , 27 , eph. 3 , 4 , col. 4 , 16 , rev. 10 , 10 , 11. with rev. 1 , 19 , and 22. 18. preaching must be in al languages , therefore writing and reading must be in al lāguages : & being a part of preaching of the word and one joynt action with it , ( so as one and the * same word is used in the holy tongue both for to read and to preach , ) it is a part of the vvorship or service of god in spirit , in the gospel of his son , as paul speaketh ; rom. 1. 9. but “ woe unto them that speak good of evil , and evil of good ; and vvith feighned vvords make merchandise of mens sovvls : † their judgment long agon is not farr off , and their damnation sleepeth not . a translation being the work of a mans wit and learning , is asmuch and as truly an humane writing as the apocrypha ( so commonly called ) writings are ; and seeing it hath not the allowance of holy men inspired but is of an hidden authoritie , it may be iustly caled apocryphon , for the signification of the word importeth so much , and therfore not to be brought into the worship of god to be read . the apocryphal vvritings are humane both in matter and form , in language , letter , vvords , sentences , method and order : the book of god set over into english , notwithstanding the difference of the letters and sounds , is yet for the substance divine , the words , sentences and methode heavenly . he that translateth faythfully , altereth not the nature of the work translated , neyther maketh he it his own . luke translating into greek esaias prophesie from the hebrue , ( luk. 4. 17. 18. ) and we translating it into english , have not changed the prophesie it self , from divine to humane , from gods work to mans : it was no fruit of our wit or learning to find out such a prophesie of christ ; but we understanding the originals , expresse the same thing in english which esaias wrote , and it is his prophesie not ours . and the visions of iohn in the revelation now englished ; are not as much and as truely an humane writing , as if m. smyth should make a book of visions or dreames , out of his own witt and learning , and set it forth in english. wherefore his hart is striken with * the darknes of aegypt , that can see no difference betwixt the prophets and apostles set over into our tongue , and other mens apocryphal writings ; but maketh these alike asmuch and as truly humane . agayn this enemy of gods book is herein condemned by his own mouth , for the apocrypha commonly so called , are holden and described thus ; “ these books &c. are called apocrypha , that is books which were not received by a common consent to be read and expounded publikly in the church , neyther yet served to prove any poynt of christian religion , save inasmuch as they had the consent of the other scriptures called canonical to confirm the same , or rather whereon they were grounded . these things are spoken of the apocrypha , not as touching the outward letter or language , but for the substance or things in them conteyned . but m. smyth alloweth translations to be read and expounded publikly in in the church , and made a ground of our fayth : which agreeth as wel with this his argument , as did the evil servāts plea with his practise . luk 19. 20. 22. &c. al the arguments used against the reading of homilies and prayers , may be applied against the reading of translations in time of worship , as , 1. they do stint or quench the spirit , which is contrary to 1 thes. 5. 19. 20. 2 cor. 3. 17. 2. they are not the pure word of god : and so contrary to eccles. 12. 10. mat. 15. 9. 3. they are the private works of men : contrary to 1 cor. 12. 7. 8. 2 pet. 1. 20. 4. they are the private openings or interpretations of the prophesies of scripture , contrary to 2 pet. 1. 20. 5. they contradict the gifts bestowed by christ upon the church for the work of the ministerie : contrary to eph. 4. 8. 11. 12. act. 2. 4. joh. 16. 7. 6. they derogate from the vertue of christs ascention , and dignity of his kingdom : contrary to ephe. 4. 8. 7. they blemish christs bountie to and care of his church , contrarie to ioh. 14. 16. 18. 26. 8. they disgrace the spirit of god , setting him to schole : contrarie to 1 ioh. 2. 27. 9. they bring into the church a strange ministration , contrarie to 1 cor. 12. 5. and so a new part of the gospel or covenant , contrarie to gal. 3. 15. 10. they do not manifest the spirit which cometh from within , but the letter which cometh from without 2 cor. 3. 6. therfore they are not spiritual worship , joh. 4 , 24. with 2 cor. 3. 17. gal. 5. 1. and 4. 31. indeed if lyes may goe for arguments , here is a heap . what lucian could have written more reprochfully & slanderously of the holy scriptures ? cannot the written word and spirit of god , his scriptures and his gifts to open them , stand togither : but one must contradict , stint , quench , and disgrace another ? did christ when * he took the book , read the text , and after spake from the same to the people : did he herein contradict his own gifts , blemish his own boūtie , stint or quench the spirit in him ? or did the church of israel contradict gods gifts or quench his spirit , when they preached & read the law “ every sabbath : or did the churches of colosse , thessalonica &c. run into any of these evils , by † reading the scriptures in the publik assemblies ? nay rather this adversary would quench the spirit , by abolishing the scriptures out of gods worship : seeing gods spirit is in his scriptures , and he having commanded them to be written , commandeth also him that hath an ear , to hear what in them * the spirit speaketh to the churches . let him not here cavil that he meaneth these things of translations onely ; for vve have heard before , hovv even the original scriptures are also by him shut out of gods vvorship ; and the reading of them so , condemned for ministration of the letter , iudaisme & antichristian . but some special things here are , vvhich he seemeth to bend at translations onely : as that they are not the pure word of god , and so cōtrary to eccles. 12. 10. math. 15. 9. so then belike , vvhen vve read the lavves of god , * thou shalt not kil ; thou shalt not steal ; honour thy father and thy mother : or any other scriptures hovv faythfully soever translated into english ; vve read not the pure word of god ; nor as solomon sayth , † an upright writing , the words of truth : but we do that which christ blamed the pharisees for , matth. 15. 9. worship god in vain , teaching doctrines the precepts of men . loe here some part of the deepnes of satan , who would perswade that the pure word of god , the upright writing , the words of truth , cannot be written in english ; no nor spoken ; for if they may be spoken , they may be written : but vvhatsoevet is written , ( & by consequent spoken ) of us in our mother tongue , is a doctrine and precept of men . for thus farr reacheth this impious argument . againe wher he calleth them private works of men , private openings or interpretations of prophesies , contrarie to 1 corin. 12. 7. 8. 2 pet 1. 20. hee injureth the holy scriptures : for the work or thing it self is gods , whosoever hath written , printed or translated it . the decree of king ahashverosh , when it was translated and published * into al the provinces after every peoples language , was it a private decree of him that translated or wrote it ? if m. smyth should translate paules epistles , or iohns revelation ; should we esteeme them m. smyths epistles or visions ? these be but delusions to make the work his , or of the nature of him , that is but the interpreter or oversetter of the same . neyther do the scriptures by him alleaged , speak ought against trāslations ; for god having given to his church , the “ scriptures for a a ground of their fayth ; and * gracious gifts unto men for opening and applying the scriptures : the one of these destroyeth not the other , but they confirm ech other . and peter “ speaketh not of translation or grammatical interpretation of a tongue , caled † hermencia : which even an infidel that wanteth gods spirit , yet having skil in the tongues , can do : but he speaketh of a theological resolution , opening and applying of the prophesies , called of him epilusis , which may be done without any translating at al , as christ * unlosed or expounded his owne parables , mark. 4. 34. and as ioseph “ opened or expounded the dreames told unto him . thus see we the weaknes of these reasons ; and how m. smyth quoteth many scriptures to prove things that we al hold : as that it is syn to quench the spirit , to contradict gods gifts &c. but for that which we deney , namely , that in reading the scriptures we commit these evils ; this be wil have taken for granted : thinking belike his readers wil be so simple , that if any one propositiō of an argument be proved , the whol shal be yealded unto . how then dooth he reason against us in vain , seing in his arguments there † remayns but leasing ? the last of his reasons followeth . children may read a translation perfectly wel : but children cannot perform any part of spiritual worship : therfore reading a translation is no part of spiritual worship . the second proposition is untrue , and injurious to al the children of god ; and the divil it seemeth put in his hart to write this , as a ground of his anabaptisme , wherunto soon after he drew him ; and now hath moved him to write further , that † an infant is no more capable of baptisme then is any unreasonable or unsensible creature ; thus evil men and deceyvers waxe worse and worse , * deceiving and being deceived . is not the praysing of god , a part of his worship ? & christ when the children cryed hosanna in the temple , defended their fact against cavilling iewes , by this , that out of the mouth of babes and fuklings , god had made perfit the prayse . mat. 21. 15. 16. wherfore this one testimonie is ynough to confute and “ stil this enemie and avenger , whom satan useth to wreak his teen upon the children and infants of the lord. but i wil turne his owne weapon against him thus . mr. sm. anabaptised himself with water : but a child could have done the like unto himself , who cannot performe any part of spirituall worship : therefore mr. sm. anabaptising himself with water , did no part of spirituall worship : and consequently it was carnal worship , and service of the divil . if he answer , that a child though he could cast water on himself , & utter such words as he heard mr. sm. speak withal ; yet could he not preach or open the covenant as mr. sm. did : i answer in like manner , though children may read the scriptures perfectly wel ; yet can they not preach nor open the covenant as did the preists and levits , nehem. 8. 8. and as christ himself did when he read in the synagogue , luk. 4. wherefore reading and preaching being joyned togither , as baptising with water & preaching : he that condemns the one outward action because a child can doe it , condemneth also the other by the like reason . and mr. sm. having thus written of children , and doon to himself ; the babes and sucklings whose soules he would murder by depriving them of the covenant promise and visible seal of salvation in the church ; shal rise up in judgment & shall condemn him in the day of christ. objections for translations answered and mainteyned . after this mr. sm. “ professeth to answer objections for translations : where he taketh his libertie to make the objectiōs , as liked him best to answer , thus . rom. 4. 3. what saith the scripture , and then followeth the septuagints translation . heb. 3. 7. the holy ghost sayth ; and then folow the words of the lxx. translation : and it is observed that the apostles quote the words of the seventies translation not onely where they expound the meaning of the holy ghost , as heb. 10. 5. rom. 4. 3. where the apostles follow the lxx. not the hebrue , but also in their devises besides the original ; as in the second cainan , luk. 3. 36. 37. and in the 75. persons of iaakobs familie , act. 7. 14. whereas there is but one cainan and 70. persons in the hebrue . if the originals themselves are not to be vsed as helps in time of spiritual worship , as hath been proved ; then this obiection is of no force for translations . but the original scriptures are to be used in gods publike worship , by such as understand them ; as hath ben proved : therfore this answer is of no force against translations . secondly , if it were of force to bring translations to be read in time of worship , it were available thus far even to bring in to the time of worship , the errors of the translations . &c. whatsoever the scripture & holy ghost sayth , may be read & heard in gods publik worship ordinarily ; as before hath been manifested : errors by gods special extraordinary dispensatiō admitted because of mens infirmities ; as cainan in lukes genealogie , &c. are not of vs ordinarily to be followed ; that we should put new persons into genealogies , no more then we may dispense ordinarily with gods commaundements , because himself dispensed with the iewes for * putting away their wives , for having many wives , and the like ; which he suffred † for the hardnes of their harts . the holy ghost needeth not the lies of men to work his work , nor the seventies errors to support the faith of theophilus and the graecians . &c. and it is one thing by connivencie to passe by syn , as was the tolleration of polygamie , divorce and usurie , see act. 17. 30. another thing to translate errors from a translation into the original , which is to approve them , and this whosoever affirmeth , speaketh litle lesse then blasphemie . thirdly , therfore as antichrist hath polluted al gods ordinances , so hath he violated the original scriptures ; and therfore one cainan must be put out , for some ancient copies have it not : and for 75. there must be seventy al : pente for pantes : as rom. 12. 11. kairo kurio , and it is possible easily to mistake so smal a matter , in copying out any thing , as experience teacheth . thus mr. sm. is slipt aside from translations , to quarrel with the original scriptures and correct them : where ( though i would not folow his wanderings ) i observ breefly these things . 1. he restreyneth , the holy ghost from using the seventies errors ( bearing with mens weaknes : ) because he needeth them not : why doth he not also restreyne god from suffering divorce & many wives to one man in israel , seing he needed not thus to have done then , more then now ? shal man limit the holy ghost , to doe no more then he needeth ? 2. he mismatcheth gods passing by the syn of hethens idolatrie , act. 17. 30. with gods † permission of divorce and * polygamie in his law , and putting in cainan in luk. 3. the first was horrible syn in al that did it , though god overlooked it upon their repentance : the latter not so , but tolerable ; and lukes naming of cainan , holy . 3 he injurieth luke , intimating as if he put errors from a translation into the original ; indeed he had so done , if from the lxx. he had put it into moses hebrue ; which was farr from him . but he onely sets it downe out of a common known & received record , into the genealogie which he wrote ; which al would allow of , & by which they would trie lukes writing : where the leaving of it out , mought have caused much strife . and if god so bare with the iewes hardnes of old : what mouth can blame him for bearing with the weaknes both of iewes and gentiles here ? nay rather his mercy is to be magnified for writing his word so : as the weak mought not stumble or fal away , the froward mought not cavil . for had the apostles written in hebrue , the grekes ( & of liklihood many iewes ) ▪ could not have vnderstood : and if they should have ordinarily left the common translatiō , not onely the gentiles mought have made doubt , but the iewes would have taken occasion to speak evil . for they reverenced the labours of the 70 ▪ greatly , and would suffer no other translatiō . god therefore who turneth al things to his glorie turned this his indulgence , to the praise of his grace . 4 mr. sm. hazardeth the credit of the original scriptures , and of al mens faith ; in saying antichrist hath violated them , as he hath polluted al gods ordinances . it is not good , they say , to bely the divil : & antichrist hath evil ynough upon him though he be not charged with violating the originals , which this accuser wil not easily prove . no doubt but copiers , and writers might fail , and did mistake ; and some thinking to mend the new testament by the old , or luke by matthew , might make it worse ; which by true copies may be amended . so faults are in translations through ignorance or oversight . but this point if it were true , helpeth translatiōs and hurteth them not . for if the originals be violated , and yet are not for the faults to be rejected : so translations may be violated , & the errors in the part , are no cause to reject the whole . 5 he presumeth to put cainan out , because it is not in some ancient copies : these some i take it wil prove but one , which beza mentioneth : and if the credit of it wil countervayl al others in cainan , it must do the like also in a great part of the genealogie beside ; † varying al the names from ioseph up to david , according to matthewes narration : which is to overthrow lukes purpose quite . for he deduceth christ from nathan his father in the flesh ; and not from the brother solomon , his father but in the kingdom , as matthew dooth . but to change pente five , into pantes all , act. 7 , 14. without warrant of any greek copie at al , is too much boldnes ; & cannot be be born out by kurio & kairo , where many copies are for a ground . if men that perceive not the counsel of god in penning his word , shal presumptuously change it according to their owne conceipt : we shal have nothing left sound or uncorrupt . rather , if men be ignorant , let them † lay their hand on their mouth . lastly ( sayth he ) fully to answer the obiection whatsoever is good in the lxx translation , was taken out of the new testament , and ancient fathers of the greek church . for it is manifest by histories that the lxx translation is lost , and this that goeth under the name of the lxx is a patcherie made out of ancient writings : & therfore the holy ghost doth not aim at the lxx . translation at al , as is imported in the obiection . this is not fully but foolishly to answer : for though the lxx . trans . were now lost , yet was it not lost in the apostles dayes , nay ther was no other but that known in the world ; & to reason because we have it not now , therfore they then aimed not at it at al , is without reason or colour of truth . neyther doth m. smyth manifest by histories that the seventies translation is now lost : rather the translations of aquila , symmachus , theodotio , & others that synce the apostles time set over the bible in greek , these al are lost , save some peeces of them ; and that which we have , is for the body of it the seventies , though much corrupted with words and sentences of the other . and this hieroms translation of the prophets from the septuagint , and his commentarie citing the divers versions of aquila , symmachus &c. sheweth : and the best greek bibles now extant , that have varias lectiones do confirm the same . neyther if al were granted which he would , is the objection fully answered : for the apostles * cite the scriptures in greek , which the prophets wrote in hebrue ; eyther therfore they aymed at the septuagint or translated it themselves . whereupon it followeth that the hebrue text set over into greek , is the scripture of god stil , and speech of the holy ghost . or ( if m. smyths divinitie had then been known , ) the unbeleeving iewes mought have alleged , that paul proved not his doctrine by canonical scripture , but by apocryphal writings , that were equally humane with the rabbines commentaries in respect of the matter : and in respect of the letter & language , worse . there were greeks and graecians , hellenes and hellenistai , rom. 1. 16. act. 6. 1. the greeks were so by progenie and blood , the graecians or hellenists were iewes by progenie , borne in grecia . therfore paul calleth himself an hebrue of the hebrues . phil. 3 , 5. these graecians had forgotten their language , and spake greek onely ; and in their synagogues had the greek translation read unto them : and the apostles coming into their synagogues approved that act : and so it followeth , that reading translations is lawful in worship . the distinction of greeks and grecians , is vain ( sayth m. sm. ) as appeareth by these places compared , act. 21. 39. & 18. 2. 24. with act. 6. 1. phil. 3. 5. for paul was born at tarsus in cilicia , and aquila at pontus , and apollos at alexandria : and yet are al called jewes , not hellenists or graecians . and act. 6. 1. the hellenists murmured against the hebrues : the hellenists did understand their own tongue , and had not forgotten their own language . this reason of greeks and grecians , was propounded not as certain , but as probable : because humane writers testifyed it , and in the scriptures , some footsteps onely mought be seen . that there is a distinction in scripture of hellenes greeks , & hellenists greekists or graecians ; al that have eyes to see , and judgment in the tongue , may read : though in our english this difference is not alwayes manifested . for ordinarily they of that nation are called hellenes greeks . ioh. 12. 20. act. 16. 1. & 18. 17. and 21. 28. rom. 1. 14. and often in that and his other epistles . hellenists or grecians are mentioned act. 6 , 1. and 9. 29 , & 11. 20. the hellenes or greeks are usually set against iewes ; as act. 14. 1. & 18. 4. and 19. 10. and 20. 21. rom. 1. 16. and 2. 9. 10. and 3. 9. and 10. 12. 1 cor. 1. 24. and 10. 32. and so in other places ▪ the hellenists or grecians , are set against hebrues , act. 6. 1. the hellenists were such as spake greek ; for hellenisti is the greek tongue , act. 21. 37. as ebraisti is the ebrue tongue , iohn . 19. 20. al hellenes or greeks could their own language ; but many of other nations could speak it also , it being spread over al ; and such were called not hellenes but hellenists ; as a latine is he that is born in latium , or of that blood ; but a latinist is he that can speak latine , what country man soever . that the iewes were dispersed in the greek nations , we may read al over the historie : for there were synagogues of iewes at salamis , act. 13. 5. at antioch of pisidia : act 13. 14 : at iconium , act. 14. 1. at thessalonica , act. 17. 1. at beraea , act. 17. 10. at athens , act. 17. 16. 17. at corinth , act. 18. 14. at ephesus , act. 18. 19. and other places . their dispersion among the gentiles , had been about 300 yeres : for ptolomee lagi king of aegypt , surprising ierusalem unawares , caryed many thowsands of them captives , and made them freemen of alexandria upon their oath of fealtie ; and after them many iewes went thither of their own accord , as † iosephus witnesseth . and his son ptolomee philadelphus who procured the bible to be turned into greek ; willing to gratifie the iewes , made free six skore thowsand of their captives : who remayning in those parts , not onely learned greek , but forgat hebrue , as may evidētly be gathered by ben sirachs words in his prologue before his fathers book , among our apocrypha , caled ecclesiasticus . for * he in the dayes of ptolomee euergetes , ( who reigned next to philadelphus ) turned his fathers hebrue work into greek , that they which remayned in banishment ( as he sayth ) and were desirous to learn , might apply themselves to good manners , and live according to the law . this paynes he might hav spared if his people al , could hav understood hebrue . also under the tyran antiochus , the iewes troubles & dispersiō cōtinued & increased , as the book of machabees witnesseth : and so th'apostles in their dayes found synagogues of the ievves , almost in al cities of the gentiles , as before is shevved . novv vvho knovveth not , that farr fevver yeres then three hūdred in a strange land , vvil make a people , specially in bondage and affliction , forget their native speech : vvherfore as it is most probable , that many ievves had forgot hebrue , so is it almost incredible , that al should keep it , in such estate ; vvhen also they maried vvith the gentiles , as timothees mother is a president . acts. 16. 1. moreover in ierusalem it self it may be probably gathered they knevv & spake greek . for when paul spake once in hebrue to them , it it is noted how the people kept the more silence . see act. 22. 1. 2. and 21. 37. 38. 39. 40. and very learned iewes , as philo of alexandria , who lived in the apostles dayes , and josephus , wrote eloquently their works in greek , having smal skill in hebrue , as by their writings may be gathered . now for m. smyths exception , that paul , aquila , & apollos , are called iewes not hellenists : it is nothing to the matter : for i grant , al were called iewes but not al hebrues : and in act. 6 , 1. not iewes , but ebrues ar murmured against by the hellenists , that is , by such as spake greek . wherfore , he needed not have caled the distinction vain , when himself can make but such an emptie ansvver . neyther sheweth he any reason at al , why paul reckoning up his privileges ( phil. 3 , 5. ) caleth himself an ebrue of the ebrues : & unlesse it be for the language i can shew none sufficient . for thus i mind his speech ; by kindred or stock in general , he was of israel by tribe in particular he was of beniamin ; by language an ebrue ; by profession of law or religion , a pharisee ; for zele , a persecutor of the contrary ; and for legal righteousnes , unrebukeable . herein the gr. scholiast agreeth with me , saying that the name ebrue is added pros ●●desin tés ebraidos glosses , for his skil in the ebrue tongue . the like he speaketh of himself 2 cor. 11. 22 , they are ebrues , so am j , they are israelites , so am j , they are abrahams seed , so am j. it is wel known this people had much to boast of for their stock of israel , famous throughout al the bible ; likeweise of abraham † they boasted because of gods * covenant with him , and of his fatherhood . but of heber they had nothing to rejoyce more then of other patriarchs , save for the language onely , which was derived from him to abraham the “ hebrue , and so to his posteritie , til in dispersion it was lost of some , by others reteyned . and if it be excepted that paul was born at tarsus in cilicia , and therfore an hellenist as others there : i answer , though there he was born , yet his bringing up was in † ierusalem at the feet of doctor gamaleel , where he learned both the language and law of the pharisees ; and therfore boasted to be an ebrue as wel as any other . and for those whom the scripture calleth hellenists or greekists they seem to be no other but iewes . for they that were proselytes or converts among the hethen , are called hellenes greeks ; as iohn . 12. 20. ther were * greeks among them , that came up to worship at the feast . neyther know i why a greek converted to iudaisme should hav the name of a greekist , seeing by his conversion , he doth more degenerate from greekisme ; so that the name were unfit . besides , in act. 2. 10. & 13. 43. such converted strangers , are called prosclytes not hellenists . likevveise vvhen paul nevvly converted , disputed in ierusalem vvith the hellenists , and they vvent about to slay him , act. 9. 29. this their cariage argueth that they vvere ievves , for it is not like that strangers vvould have been so busie in that place . also the hellenists in antiochia act. 11. 20. seem to be ievves there , to vvhom the gospel vvas first preached ; as in the vvords immediatly “ before is noted , they preached to no man , but to the iewes onely : after that , † many moe vvere converted there dayly : & vvhen the gentiles of the city had received the fayth , they vvere troubled * concerning circumcision , ( this fel out about 7. yeares after the conversion of the hellenists , act. 11 ) and then the church at ierusalem vvriting therof , directed their letters † to the brethren of the gentiles in antiochia : al vvhich do persvvade that the hellenists first spoken of vvere ievves . hereuppon i conclude , that the testimonie of learned men , “ recording hovv the hellenists vvere dispersed ievves , that used the greek bibles in their synagogues ; hath more probabilitie , if not certainty to be true , even by the scripture ; then m. smyths sleight ansvver can turn avvay . but he hath yet more to speak . a. secondly ( sayth he ) it cannot be proved by scriptures , that the hellenists had the gr. transl . read in the synagogues : it is manifestly otherweise by the reasons used before against the translation of the lxx . r. those reasons were rather calumnies ; & i have before refuted thē , shewing that no such syn can be proved upō the sep. fortheir trāsl . that the greek bible was read among the hellenists , the point before handled giveth light ; & i leave it to the judgment of the wise further i answer , that seing by scripture we learne that not iewes onely but † greeks were present in the synagogues ; it cannot be thought that the lectures there were in hebrue ; which the iewes themselves in liklihood , the greeks of certainety , could not understand . thirdly ( sayth m. s. ) the worship of god properly so called of the whol church of the iewes was performed in the holy place at ierusalem , and so that which was performed in the synagogue was not properly the worship of the whol church of the iewes : but was of that nature that passed between christ and the doctors in the temple luk. 2. 46. with act. 17. 2. neyther is that which we performe in our assemblies , the worship of the whol church of the christians , but of our own particular church : neyther is our reading the scriptures , the worship of god properly so called : as before i have manifested . so in the mans answer , lodgeth guile and deceit . though all the iewes worshiped at the temple thrise in the year , yet followeth it not thereupon they had no proper worship in their synagogues . for mr. smyth himselfe counteth prophesie or preaching , proper worship ; and this was in their synagogues . againe prayer & thanksgiving is worship properly ; & this they did other where then in the temple as appeareth act. 16. 13. neyther can we think of our godly forefathers ( howsoever mr. sm. counteth them a carnal church , ) that they would read and preach the word , and not pray in their synagogues ; yea their synagogues were caled oratories or prayer howses ; as witnesseth philo a iew in the apostles age , who complayning of the outrage offred in alexandria ( the city wher he lived ) by throwing downe the synagogues * caleth them proseuchas oratories ; and mentioneth also the synagogues of rome , by the same name . fourthly ( sayth m. sm. ) if the hellenists read the seventies translation as a part of their proper worship having forgotten their own language , therin were committed these synns : 1. forgetting their tongue , one part of the ceremoniall law . nehem. 13. 24. 2. instituting worship in a common tongue , which was as unlawful as sacrificing a dog . 3. therefore it was false worship ; as it was to sacrifice an unclean beast proper worship is an vnproper term wherwith mr. s. would cloke his error , before discovered . but had it been proper worship , yet this mans charge of them were both unproper and untrue . for , although the willing neglect and forgetting of their hebrue , was syn : yet the constreyned losse of it was not syn . the scripture alleged mought have taught him this ; for † they that of lust maried strange wives , which taught their children azotik or ashdod speech , are justly blamed by the holy ghost : but were any blamed for speaking babels tongue , where they had been prisoners neer 70. yeares ? nay ezra and daniel wrote a great parte of their books in babylons language , and not in hebrue . and if it had been such a breach of the ceremonial law as is intimated ; daniel and his brethren who refused the * king of babels diet , would also have refused his language , which they did not at al. the comparison of sacrificing a dog is odious : for mought not converted strangers pray and praise god in their mother tongues ; did god abhorr their languages , as doggs in sacrifice ? daniel was skilful both in sions tongue and babels : and he writing his book , recordeth his own prayer and thanksgiving in babylons language ; dan. 2. 20. — 23. he that should have condemned this for false worship : the godly iewes would have counted him a dog . the prophets warned israel of the idols of babel , but never of their tongue : nay ieremie in canaan , teacheth the people in the chaldee tongue , how they should answer and confute idolaters . ier. 10. 11. and what wil this calumniator of the saints , say of christ himselfe , who prayed on the crosse , “ eloi eloi lamma sabachthani , which was syriak not ▪ hebrue , though the scripture which he had reference unto , psal. 22. 1 , was hebrue . and ordinarily he spake syriak , as by † ephphatha , talitha coumi and other like words recorded by the evangelists , may be probably gathered . lastly ( sayth m. sm. ) if they read the seventies translation , and the apostles came in & heard : it followeth not they did allow it , as a part of the worship of the new testament , any more then circumcision &c. first this followeth , that the bible translated , is the bible stil ; and moses turned into greek , is moses stil : for it is not sayd that apocryphal humane writings were read in the synagogues , but the † law and the prophets . so it proveth the question , that the scriptures in our mother tongue , are divine writings , not humane , as m. sm. avoucheth . hereuppon it wil folow undenyablie , that they are to be read in al christian churches now , as then in israel : and not as profane & apocryphal , to be quite thrust out of gods worship . the apostles shewed an end * of circumcision , and like legal shadowes : but never any end or ceasing or reading the scriptures : nay they shew plainly the contrary . 2 pet , 1 , 19 , 2 tim. 3 , 15 , 16 , 17. 1 thes. 5 , 27. deut. 31. 12. the reasons that are alleged for reading the law are perpetual , and therfore the law of reading is perpetual : the moral reasons are , hearing , learning , fearing god , and keeping his lawes . hereunto m. smyth answereth : first the law of reading is not moral in the particular act , but in the equitie , for it was commanded to be doon but once in seven yeare , at the feast of tabernacles , deut. 31. 10. and if it had been moral in the particular act , it should have been from the beginning , which was not so , seing it began with moses , and it should continue after the end of the world , for moralities indure for ever : but books and so reading of books shal perish . men should “ kisse the lips of him that answereth upright words : but our adversary answereth with a froward mouth . he sayth the law was commanded to be read but once in seven year : these words , but once , are not of the law , but of his own false comment . there was a special charge to read the book then , in the eares of al togither ; not intending to read it but then . for every sabbath , was to be † sanctified , and al things are sanctified by the word and prayer ; and israel knew this wel , and therfore from old tyme read the word in the synagogues * every sabbath ; and our lord christ “ accompanied thē in this holy work ; so that he is more then sadducean blind , which sayth it was commanded to be doon but once in seven year . no better is the next plea , that because writing & reading began with moses & was not frō the beginning of the world , therfore the law of reading is not perpetual , neither bindeth us now : a familist or atheist may likewise say , baptisme or the lords supper in the particular outward act , is not to cōtinue til the worlds end , because it was not from the beginning , but began with christ. a practise commanded of god , at what time soever ; is to continue til by him it be repeled , which reading the scriptures never was , but repeted and augmented , by the apostles writings . like vanitie is in the reason following : books and reading of books shal perish , when the world is at an end : therefore now whiles the world continueth , we are not bound to read gods book . mought he not have made these reasons against preaching the word , and other ordinances of god , as wel as against reading ; seeing these shal cease also at the end of the world . but a * seduced hart hath deceived this man , that he cannot deliver his sowl , nor say , js there not a lye in my right hand ? secondly ( sayth he ) it is moral in the equity , that is , that al meanes must be used to attayn the knowledge of the truth , wherof reading is a principal : and yet hence it followeth not , that reading is eyther part or meanes of spiritual worship : for books are things meerly artificial , as are pictures and images , gen. 4. 22. here again the enemie is caught in the snare of his own tongue : for if reading gods law be a principal mean to attayn the knowledge of the truth now , as it was in israel , deut. 31. 12. and so moral & perpetual : then his former cavils against the objection , may be cast as dung upon his own face . then do we wel to read gods word in our church , for that end : and m. sm. hath doon wickedly for it to blame us , and charge us with idolatrie . to hide this his shame , he runs into his old borough , that it is no part or meanes of spirituall worship ; but out of this he hath been often hunted before : and wee are sure that observing it according to gods wil , we worship & serv god in spirit and truth , as wel in this as in other like ordinances of the gospel . his matching of books with tubal-cains craft ( gen. 4. 22. ) & images , sheweth how his idol error hath † shut his eyes that he cannot see , his hart that he cannot understand . for in holy scriptures ( wherof we speak ) the mynd of god is made known unto us , and his spirit † is in them , so as when we read in the book of moses , we read that which is spoken to us of god ; as the evangelists * in playn words teach us : whereas in handicrafts we see or enjoy but the fruit of mans wit and skil ; and an image without life , is the “ teacher of lyes . such impious comparisons seem rather to come from tubal-cains forge , then from any possessed with the spirit of god. reading the law was performed in the synagogue , and not tyed to the temple : an argument that reading is not ceremonial but moral , for no part of ceremonial worship was performed from the tabernacle or temple . this objection with the reason , ( i think ) was never so made of any , but by m. smyth himself . it is true that reading was not tyed to the temple ; it is true also ( though this argument thus framed , hardly proveth it ) that reading is not ceremonial . the last branch is untrue , for some ceremonies or figurative services were performed out of the temple . his answers to this obiection , are for the most part true , being wel understood : but in part false , when by the way he denyeth reading the law to be a moral action ; wherof he giveth no reason at al : and the thing is handled before . luk 4. 16. christ stood up to read and redd his text , and then preached out of it . now his actions are our instructions : and therefore we are to read words out of a book , in time of preaching or prophesying . this objection m. smyth hath falsified : it was never thus pressed by us for translations , whereof now we treat : but thus . luke reporteth that christ “ read where it was written the spirit of the lord is upon me &c. this text luke setteth down in greek , which esaias wrote in hebrue ; whereupon it followeth , that the scripture translated into an other language , is the same scripture stil for the substance of it , though the letter and language differ , and is not an apocryphal humane vvriting , and so an idol in gods vvorship , as mr. smyth blasphemed . els , luke and the new testament cannot be defended against ievves that should cavil , hovv humane apocryphal vvritings , are cited for divine and canonical . thvs serveth it to prove the reading of translated scriptures , by necessary consequence : and that vve are not bound to bring the book of the law and prophets in hebrue when we vvould read to the people , and so interpret or read mentally out of it , as m. smyth then dreamed : though since he is fallen to forbid the original hebrue also , in gods vvorship , as vve have heard before . but m. s. finding ( as seemeth ) this objection too heavie for him , hath sought to change it , as he could best make ansvver : vvhich is thus . first in that it was doon in the synagogue by christ which was neither priest nor levite , it is an argument that it was no proper part of the worship of the old testament , but of that nature as was the exercise performed by christ and the doctors in the temple , so that reading most properly is searching the scripture , which is not worship . christ as his custome was , ( sayth * the scripture ) went into the synagogue on the sabbath day , and stood up to read : and after speaking from the scripture which he had read , “ al bare him witnesse , and wōdred at the gracious words , which proceeded out of his mouth . he † sate dayly teaching in the temple and in the synagogues among the people . but al this reading and teaching : vvas no proper part of the worship of the old testament , ( vvith m. smyth ) because he was neither preist nor levite . hovvbeit , * before he vvould needs persvvade us by a mystical interpretation , that christ having by the use of the book fulfilled the law of reading , he shut the book , to signifie that the ceremonie of book-worship was now exspired . so svveet an accord & harmonie is in his vvriting . wel , christs action here is excluded from being a part of gods vvorship . but m. smyth though he vvere neyther priest nor levite of the old testament , nor apostle , prophet , evangelist , pastor nor teacher , no nor member of the church of the nevv testament , ( he and his followers having dischurched themselves and dissolved their communion ; ) yet he in that estate , preached , and anabaptised himself , and then anabaptised others : and this in him was the worship of god , or els of the divil , properly so caled . and hath not this man behaved himself like a proud korah , that without al office would presume to do these things which he counteth proper worship ; and yet censureth christs action in reading & preaching of the word to be no proper part of worship , because he was neyther preist nor levite ? shal the word out of christs mouth , read and applied with al grace of the spirit ( which he had without measure ) be no proper part of gods worship ; and shal the word which mr. smyth uttereth out of his hart , be proper worship ? and of what nature may we think , was that exercise performed by christ and the doctors in the temple ? was it none of gods worship ? he was i am sure “ in his fathers busines , among the teachers of the word , whom he heard , whom he asked , whom he answered with such understanding as astonied al that heard him . if m. smyth esteme his own teaching or prophesying used in his synagogue to be the worship of god ; and this of christ and the teachers of israel in the temple , to be not his worship : he is worthy of al true christians , to be holden anathema . but reading ( sayth he ) is serching the scriptures , which is not worship . but reading ( say i ) as christ now did , is proclayming the word of god unto the people : and if preaching be worship , reading in this sort is worship : not proskunesis , supplication or prostrating unto god : but latreia † a worship or service of god in the spirit , in the gospel ; as before hath been manifested . secondly ( sayth m. smyth ) christ had the originals the hebrue text of esay the prophet , and read or interpreted out of it : for it is doubtful whither he uttered the hebrue words , or spake the sense of the hebrue in the syriak dialect , and therefore from hence reading a translation cannot be concluded , but eyther reading or interpreting the originals . how it maketh for translations , i shewed before against m. smyths frawd : and to that we have no answer , but by-matters brought as clowds to darken the light . and if we had alleged this for the originals , yet mr. smyth would not have allowed it , as before hath been shewed . he doubteth whither christ spake in syriak or not : but if he so did , & preached or prophesied in that common language , ( as before i have shewed it most likely , ) and preaching or prophesying be properly worship ; and instituting worship in a common tongue , be as unlawful as sacrificing a dog , as m. smyth before † affirmed : wil not he be found a blasphemer of christ , as one that speaks not by the spirit of god , * calling iesus execrable ? thirdly ( sayth he ) hence cannot be concluded that manner of preaching now used , that a man shal take his text , and then divide it into parts , analysing it rhetorically and logically , collecting doctrines and uses from every member , &c. of his text , al this while he hauing his book before his eye , to help him at al assayes : a thing whereof i am assured the holy scripture yeeldeth no warrant that it may be counted a part of spiritual worship . for though the scripture may be so handled , and that for very profitable use ; yet that is rather a scholastical lecture , then an ecclesiastical worship , it is rather an inquisition and serching of the holy spirits intent and purpose then prophesying if the scriptures may be so handled , and that for very profitable use : surely mr. smyths schisme , and charge of idolatrie layd upon us , had very unprofitable use , and wicked end . for his owne conscience can testifie for us , if it be not feared ; that we never pleaded for other use of the scriptures , then was in israel , where christ † read the text , and after taught from and applyed it ; where the * law was read , the sense given , and the people caused to understand the reading ; where “ lectures were of the law & prophets in their synagogues every sabbath ; and other such like exercises . but because we did thus out of our translated english bibles ( of him called apocrypha , ) he accused us of idol-latrie , that is the worship or service of idols ; we mainteyned it to be theo-latrie , that is , the worship or service of god , because it was gods word , not mans , though written in english. this point is now sought to be shifted off , and a nue question made , whither reading the scriptures in the church may be caled worship : which i have cleared before . his sophistical distinction of scholastical lecture , and ecclesiastical worship ; we heard not of til now ; and it serveth him in no stead : for every such lecture in the church to christs scholars , is the latreia or service of god , not of idols ; and is a manifestation of the holy spirits intent , as of old was in prophesying . the teacher most properly doth then inquire & serch , when he prepareth himselfe privatly by reading , studie and meditation , to expound the scriptures in publik . were not the voices of the prophets in israel , a manifestation of the spirits intent ? but when they were read in the synagogues , their * voices were heard , as the scripture teacheth ; act. 13. 27. lastly ( sayth m. s. ) if we must needs be tied to this example of christ , ( which j see no reason for , seeing reading was of the old testament , ) then the example of christ shall bind also thus farr , as that the book shal be layd aside , so soon as the text is read , and the book that is used , shal be the originals , which is nothing for vocal but for mental reading , or for interpreting , which i never have thought to contradict . &c. no man that i know , tieth to follow this particular example . we doubt not but men may teach , without any book . but that it is lawful by christs example here , to read , open and apply the scriptures ; as by other examples of him also , to preach without reading . the mayn thing is left , and new questions set on foot . we know wel , he at first contradicted not mental reading ( as he calleth it ) or interpreting out of the originals though now he writeth against the use of the originals also , as before we have seen : so fast he runns on in error . his cōceipt of mental reading , as it hath no groūd frō christ here , nor any prophet or apostle , to be the ordinary way of reading or interpreting scripture : so mind we it to be a far more vncertayn and erroneous course ; let the man make as many querees after it , as he will. having answered these few objections , as we see ; he * afterwards questioneth whither the hearers may have their translations or the originals to read or search in time of prophesie . which he deneyeth . of this point , though it was not controverted between us , yet i wil speak what i mind about it . not condemning it , as dooth he ; nor iustifying it , as it is abused by some ; but shewing the mean , which i take to be best . his first reason is ; that the prophets and apostles wrote books , but never divided them into chapters or verses , henry stephen first made the verses of the n. testament : whereupon he concludeth that the hearers could not serch their bookes in time of hearing . i deney the consequence ; for in reading the law & expounding it , comparing words with that which went before and after ; the hearers mought serch and see ; though it were with more difficultie . secondly the hebrue bibles that we have , are all divided into chapters and verses ; as also into other sections , noting where the lecture of the law began and ended , and the lecture of the prophets answerable to it . whither the first writers did this , or the church after them , i wil not dispute ; but that thus they might doe , i make no doubt : for god hath left to the discretiō of the church and ministers , what quantitie of scripture to read and teach of . and this was the practise in th' apostles dayes ; for it was not possible that every sabbathall the law and prophets should be read over : & the hebrue letters and marginall notes , are sufficient records of the antiquitie of them . the churches practise in the books of the prophets , sheweth us our libertie in the apostles writings ; which cannot be read over at once . and long before henry stephens time the greek copies of the new testament had chapters and sections though otherweise then we now have . and matthewes gospel parted into 68. chapters or titles , and 355. sections , was in a manner as easie for the readers to serch , as it is now with us ; and so the rest . his second reason is , that th' apostles in citing scriptures , quote not chapter and verse , but onely say it is written by zacharie , by jeremie ; the scripture sayth , &c. this reason dependeth on the former , and is there answered , in part . further i observe , the apostles speak diversly , sometime naming † no book at all ; sometime naming the book , as * the psalmes ; sometime a part of the book ; as “ the second psalme , and how they particulated matters in their doctrine , is not set down ; the summonely of things is recorded . the argument therfore concluding , thus , it is not written that they quoted chapters , therefore they did it not ; is not of force , negatively . but if if be true which hilarie an ancient writer † recordeth that the seventie greek interpreters did number and order the psalmes ; and we find that sometimes the apostles quoted what psalm in nōber they alleged ; it may warrant us such like use of humane labours , for help of our memorie . his third reason is of like nature , that no mention is made of any hearer that had his book &c. yet mought it be , say i , though it were not mentioned , they used to dispute in their synagogues ( after the lecture was ended ) ; and that † by the scriptures : and the hearers serched * the scriptures dayly for trial of doctrine . who now can say that the hearers had or used no books in the synagogues ? his 4. reason is , that serching quotations hindreth attention , for the mind and affections are distracted from hearing by seeking the places &c. this i grant to be amysse , in all that so use their books ; for diligent eare shoud be given to all that is spoken . howbeit this abuse , may not abolish the lawful use : for as by turning of leaves many hinder thēselves in time of hearing ; so many againe attentively hearkning , and comparing things spoken with the matters before and after in the chapter , are not hindred at all , but greatly furthered by looking on their books . and for this matter , i rest with that rule given by th' apostle , for all things to be doon unto edification , seemlily , and with order . 1 cor. 14. 12. 40. his last reason is , that manuscripts being few , and very dear , ( there being yet no printing found out ) all could not have or bring their bookes ; but there is onely one kind of true aad profitable hearing : eyther all to have bookes and serch or none . if god have left it to the wisdom and discretion of his people when and how to use the scriptures , so it be not to confound actions or hinder their good : i wil not bring their libertie into bondage , nor prescribe a law , where god hath given none . though written copies were dear , yet were they many ; & many had them ; not all : for all now have not . that such as have not books , or cannot read , should prejudice other that have & can , there is no reason . it is not therefore for us to walk by example in this case , but by general ground and equitie from gods law : who permitteth us free use of the scriptures for our edification , according to which if men use them in private or publik , they do well . thus am i at an end about the mayn cōtroversie of the scriptures , which for the readers good i have beaten out and explaned , shewing the true differences which he handled covertly for his best advantage . wherein the judicious may discern , how mr. sm. hath been up and down , wavering like a reed shaken of the wind ; sometimes seming to allow translations , sometime bitterly writing against them : that as easie it is to know * the way of a serpent upon the rock ; as the way of a man with his mineon error . a defence of christs ministerie in the church : against the contradiction of m. smyth . vnto the former battel against the scriptures , m. sm. addeth strife about the ministerie : affirming that the triformed presbyterie ( as he calleth it ) consisting of three kind of elders , viz. pastors , teachers , rulers , is none of gods ordinance , but mans devise ; and that lay elders ( so called ) are antichristian . that other point , being an idol of his own invention , which he would have had worshiped in our church , i have more largely dealt against : this latter being a thing oft discussed heretofore , and no new thing by him alleged ; i wil the more briefly answer . m. smyth a while before , both agreed in judgment with us ; and wrote † in defence of this ministerie which now he oppugneth : but that his first fayth and labours , he retracteth in this book : and sithence is fallen into further error about the covenant between god and his people . so by degrees he is come to undermine the word , the ministerie , and the covenant of grace , three mayn grounds of christian religion : to manifest himself one of those which * privily should bring in damnable heresies , even denying the lord that hath bought them , and bring upon themselves swift damnation . touching the eldership , his assertion is ; “ the presbyterie is uniform consisting of officers of one sort . esa. 66. 28. compared with exod. 28. 1. and num. 11. 24. 25. 1 tim. 3. 1 — 8. act. 14. 23. phil. 1. 1. ier. 23. 1 — 4. ezek. 34. 1 — 6. if this opposite would have avouched the contrarie , he mought with farr more reason have alleged these scriptures . for isa. 66. 21. speaketh of preists & levites . , which had charge of the sacrifices & sanctuarie : and num. 11. 24. mentioneth the lxx . elders of israel , joyned with moses to ayd him in the government : and which mought not meddle with the sacrifices . and are these fit scriptures to prove officers of one sort ? if he mean no other uniformitie in the presbyterie , then was between those elders and the preists , he fighteth with his own shadow , not with us : who hold a more strict agreement in the eldership of the church now , then was in that eldership and preisthood of the law ; where one tended to civil causes , the other to ecclesiastical . but i wil come to his † reasons , proving the elders to be of one sort , viz. al pastors . first in the old testament ( sayth he ) there was but one kind of priests , who had equal authority to administer al the holy things : excepting the high priest , who typed forth christ : so proportionably in the new testament , there is but one sort of elders , who succede the preists in the dispensation of holy things . esa. 66. 21. behold here at first , the falshood of this adversarie : even now he quoted scriptures that spake of preists , levites and other elders ; al which were different : and here he taketh one sort onely , preists , to conclude about the eldership of the church of christ. but thus to reason from part of the figure ; to the whol thing figured , is mere deceit . again , he misseth in his proportion , making al the elders now , to succeed the preists then , who had equal authoritie to administer al the holy things . for the prophet speaketh both of preists and levites isa 66 ▪ 21. which had not equal authoritie in al the holy things , as the law plainly sheweth , numb . 16. 8. 9. 10. 40. and 18. 2. 3. if now al the elders be of one sort , & equally administer al the holy things , proportion is not kept with the priests and levites of the law as esaias prophesied . m. sm. saw this inconvenience , and therfore * afterwards seeketh thus to shift it off . the deacons ( sayth he ) in the new testament are answerable to the levites in the old ; as the elders ar answerable to their preists esa. 66. 21. compared with 1 chron. 26. 20. here agayn he useth his former fallacie , concluding from part of the levites , unto the whole . and taking one peece of scripture he neglecteth many other vvhich make against him . for as 1 chron. 26. 20. shevveth that some levites had charge of the treasures ; so 1 chron. 23. 27. 28. &c. and 25. 1 , 2. &c. and 26. 1 , 2. &c. & num. 18 ▪ & other scriptures many , shevv that othersome vvere assistants to the preists in the service of the lords hovvse in al businesses , stāding “ every morning and evening to give thanks and to prayse the lord : and togither vvith the preists † did teach & instruct the people , according to the blessing which moses pronounced upon the whole tribe , deut. 33. 9. 10. so that the levites were ministers also of the word & prayer , which is directly differing from the deacons office in the church now , as appeareth act. 6. 2. 3. 4. as in the old testament there was the sanhedrim which consisted of 70. ancients for the administration of the kingdom , which was a type of the visible church , all which elders in their first institution * did prophesie and were of one kind under moses : so in the new testament under christ jesus which is the king of the church ther is asu●●drion or eldership consisting of ancients of one kind , who administer for the good of the church . rev. 4. 4. & 5. 6. first here is the same fallacie that we had before , concluding frō a part to the whol . for in the former , esaias was cited for preists and levites to be figures of our ministers , and now the ancients of israel are alleged for figures also ; & because these anciēts were of one sort , therefore all the presbyterie figured both by preists of levi , and by ancients of other tribes , must be all of one sort . the conclusion is vanitie . rather the reason should be framed thus , as the teaching preists were of one sort and the governing elders of an other ; so the teaching ministers , and the governing elders differ at this day . or , taking those elders politik , to be figures of our elders ecclesiastik , as m. sm. maketh them , the true proportion is but this , as governing elders then , so governing elders now , are all of one sort ; and this is that which we hold . neyther wil his other places rev. 4. 4. and 5. 6. help him any better . for he seemeth to understand by that vision , the church ; and by the 24. elders about the throne , ( all which were of one kind ) the eldership of the church : but he should with all have considered , that besides those elders , there were 4. other † winged creatures ful of eyes , which incessantly praysed god , and went * before the elders in this action of worship : and these were of the number “ of the redeemed by christ blood , and of the kings and preists that reigned on earth ; and being as meet to signifie the teachers of the church , as the 24. are to signifie the ruling elders ; wil rather shew a difference between the teachers and governours of the church ; then that they should be of one sort . how beit i rest not in his exposition of those elders : but that is another point . againe ( sayth he ) if pastor , teacher , elder , had been 3. offices formally differing , the apostle intending to teach the several officers of the church , would have mentioned them , 1 tim. 3. but there he onely mentioneth bishops and deacons , according as philip. 1. 1. go : bishops are onely of one sort or kind . how m. sm. understandeth this phrase of formally differing , i cannot tel ; his logik is not like every mans : the speach being well taken , i admit of ; and doe deney the consequence of his argument , that if they differ formally they should have been mentioned 1 tim. 3. for it is as if he should have sayd , if preists & levites differ formally , moses would so have mentioned them , deut. 33. 8 . -10 . nay moses having mentioned the difference * other where ; thought it not needful to set it down here ; and so dooth th' apostle . it is a weak ground to conclude against a thing , because it is not written in such or such a chapter . but the apostle ( sayth he ) intendeth to teach the several offices of the church . not so ; but rather he intendeth to shew , how officers in generall should be qualified ; and setting downe things common to all , it had been needlesse repetition to speak of the pastor first , and the same things of the teacher , and againe the third time , the same of the elder : he useth no such tautologies . and timothee needed not to be taught what offices belonged to the church , though he mought have need to be put in mind of their qualifications . yet even in the same epistle , upon other occasions , he mentioneth † the difference of the office , some being to rule wel , some to labour in the word and doctrine . of which we shall speak anon . and in his other epistles , the like differences ar playn . rom. 12. 7. 8. 1 cor. 12. 4. 5. 28. moreover , ( sayth he ) if th' apostles had ordeyned three kind of eldrs actes . 14. 23. they would have mentioned them with their several kinds of ordinations : but that is not doon : for in one phrase their election and ordination is mentioned : go ; their ordination being one , their office is one , and not three . a reason much like the former , & of like vanitie ; for to say , such a thing is not mentioned in such a place , therfore it was not doon ; is inconsequent . and here the minding of his owne words , mought have stayed him from so concluding : for if luke writing the action , doth in one phrase yea even in one word summ up both the election & the ordination , which yet ar different , and doon with many circumstances : may he not also under the general name elders , imply differēt sorts . agayn where the holy ghost expresseth not any one kind of ordination , nor any one word spoken to the officers , concerning their charge and office layd upon them ; which yet no doubt was doon : who would look for a severall kind of ordination , to be mentioned in such a place ? further if ther had been 3 kind of elders at ephesus , then the apostle at miletum would haue given them severall charges as having several duties lying upon them : hut th' apostle act. 20. 28. giveth them one general charge common to them al , namely the dutie of feeding , the work of the pastor . go , they are all pastors . these reasons be al of a sute : and the prayer of david seemeth to have prevailed against this man , for † when he shooteth arrowes , they ar as broken : or like unto strawes . first , we cannot say what several charges paul gaue those elders ; seing all his words in particular are hot recorded . for there is no doubt , but he spake many moe words , then are set downe : and it is usuall in the scriptures , to summ up mens speeches . secondly suppose he gave no several charges , but one general common to them all , which was † poimainein to feed and govern the flock : yet wil not this prove that they had all one undistinct office : any more then that peter had no other then a common pastours office , because christ gave him but a general charge common to al pastors * poimaine , feed my sheep . the preists and levites had distinct offices , as before is manifested : yet hezekiah speaking to them al generally , ( as paul dooth here to the elders , ) gives them not several charges , according to their severall duties , but useth one common exhortation to them al : which if one would pervert , ( as this man dooth pauls speech , ) he mought plead that all the levits then were properly to burn incense , as that al the elders now should properly do the pastors dutie . see 2 chro. 29. 4. 5. — 11. the conclusion which he maketh that therefore al are pastors , if he mean it in the strict sense , is deneyed , as inconsequent . if in the large sense , it is from the question , and deceiveth by ambiguitie : for christ is a * pastor , the apostles-were † pastors , and so are all bishops & governours generally : yet no man i think doubteth but these do differ . besides . eph. 4. 11. pastors and teachers are all one office . for wheras the apostle had spoken distributively before of apostles prophets , evangelists as intending them several offices : he speaketh copulatively of pastors and teachers , exegetically teaching that they are both one office . first , let it be observed , how himselfe doth say , apostles , prophets evengelists were several offices ; yet can he not deny , but generally they were to poimaeinein , that is doe the dutie of pastors , feeding and governing the church of christ : & so his former exception against act. 20. is found of no weight . also his reasons from isa . 66. 21. & numbers 11. 25. for one sort of officers to be figured in the law , are of as little valew ; unlesse we should think that the principal officers of the christian church , were not figured or prophesied of at all . secondly the exposition which he giveth of ephes. 4. 11. is against the apostles purpose , who distinctly and distributively setteth down the divers gifts and offices of the church : and therfore cānot be thought to expresse one & the same office by two names . for though he speak copulatively , pastors and teachers , yet is ther no reason why these should be taken for one , seeing this word and , coupleth divers things & divers officers ; as apostles and prophets , eph. 2. 20 , and 3 , 5. apostles and elders act. 15 , 2. prophets & teachers , act 13 , 1. and a thowsand the like . neither needed he teach exegetically , by way of exposition what the pastors office is ; seeing it was as wel , if not better known , then the prophets office or evangelists : neyther is it an exposition , when the latter is as dark and more then the former ; and the first more proper then the second . for the proper name of the office , as m. sm. takes it , is pastor : now to say pastors that is teachers , were to explayn the proper by the unproper , or commune name , which neither paul nor any wise writer useth to doe . but is ignorance or a worse thing that causeth m. sm. to pervert so plain a place . the apostle particulating the several offices some apostles , some prophets &c. doth in the last branch according to the elegancie both of the hebrue and greek tongues , omitt the word some , putting and in the sted , in the very same meaning . an example of the bebrue may be seen hos. 3. 4. where the prophet telleth how israel should remayn without king , and without prince , and without offring , and without statue , and without ephod , and teraphim : meaning and without teraphim . here in the last place the word without , is omitted , and to be understood of the reader , as our english translation dooth expresse ; for it were trifling to say as mr. smyth , that the two last are one , because and coupleth them , or that exegetically one expoundeth an other , when as it is but an elegancie in the language : as al that have skil in it can tel . the like is in the greek tongue , and in pauls own writing ▪ gal. 3. 28. there is neither jew ( sayth he ) nor greek ; there is neither bond nor free : there is neither male and female : that is nor female ▪ where and coupleth in the last place , male and female , not as of one kind but divers ; and meaneth the same that nor did before . the very like phrase and elegancie useth he here , eph. 4. 11. as any that favoureth the language and purpose of the apostle , may perceive . and this is plainly confirmed by the syriak , which speaketh of the two last as of the former , saying , and some pastors and some teachers . it is also manifested by paul himself elswher distinguishing these two offices , as 1 cor. 12 , 8. to one is given the word of wisdom , and to another the word of knowledge : and rom. 12. 7. 8. or he that teacheth on teaching , or he that exhorteth on exhortation . and if in one place he putteth a difference ; we should not think that in another he takes it away . and there is no playn doctrine set down in scripture , but may be corrupted by such violent expositions as mr. smyth maketh of this place . lastly ( sayth he ) if al the elders have the pastors gifts , and the works of the pastor , and the pastors ordination , then they have al the pastors office . but al the elders have the pastors gifts viz. the word of wisdome or the gift of exhortation , tit. 1. 9. and therefore the pastors work , as act. 20. 28. 1 pet. 5. 2. which is feeding or exhorting : and so the same ordination . act. 14. 23. therfore al the elders have the same office of the pastor , and so are al of one sort . the second part of this reason is deceitful ; for though in some sort and common mesure al the elders have the pastors gifts , & ordination , and doe the pastors work ; being al bishops , that is , careful lookers to , and feeders of the flock : yet in special manner & measure they differ in al. otherweise , we may also confound other offices : as apostles and evangelists , the evangelists and the pastors . for paul an apostle sayth of timothee an evangelist , * he worketh the work of the lord , even as i. had these two therfore one office ? agayn , timothee and titus evangelists , and the other pastors of the churches , had the same gifts , namely the word of wisdom to exhort , 1 tim. 6 , 2. tit. 2 , 15. with rom. 12 , 8. and therefore the same work , ( as these scriptures alleged shew ; ) and the same ordination by imposition of hands of the apostle and eldership 2 tim. 1. 6. 1 tim. 4. 14. with act. 14. 23. wil m. sm. hereupon conclude , therfore al pastors have the same office with the evangelists ? if he acknovvledge an error in that , so may he doe in this . for it is the special excellencie of the gifts of exhorting , teaching , ruling , which causeth the pastors , teachers , rulers , to be designed unto several works and offices . for it were vanitie to suppose , that the teachers mought be without the word of wisdom at all , or pastors without the word of knowledge , or rulers without both . everie levites lips were to preserve knovvledge , for the people to seek the lavv at his mouth , as at the preists ; deut. 33. 8. 10. mal. 2. 7. yet vvas ther difference in the office so in christs church vvhere gifts are bestovved in varietie , he that excelleth in the vvord of vvisdome and exhortation more then doctrine , is ( being lavvfully caled thereto , a pastor ; and he that excelleth in doctrine more then in exhortation , is a teacher : and they that excel other brethren in discretion gravitie &c. though they have not meet gifts for pastors or teachers , are ( being caled thereunto ) elders or governours , to assist the other in guiding the vvayes of the church . and needful are they unto the same , for one man may vvel teach an hundred , but tvvo men vvil scarse govern half so many in peace and order : so great a difference there is , betvveen the knovvledge of the truth , and the due vvalking and practise of the same . whereas therfore m. s. gives al the elders , the word of wisdome , and so the pastors office ; meaning strictly and properly : he contraryeth the apostle vvho sayth , † there are diversities of gifts ; and to one is given the word of wisdom , and to another the word of knowledge ; and agayn speaking of office , he mentioneth * distinctly teaching , & exhorting , & ruling , not in one person but in sundry . although sometime speaking of the eldership in general , he ascribeth the same vvork in general thereto , as in tit. 1. act. 20. and other like places . of the ordination act. 14. vve spake before . novv after al these reasons , m. sm. thus concludeth . hence this con●ectorie ( sayth he ) ariseth : that the eldership consisting of three sorts of elders , is the invention of man , having both an antichristian ministerie and goverment in it . and therfore when the popish prelacie was supprest , and the triformed presbyterie substituted , one antichrist was put down , and another was set up in his place . &c. vvith other like contumelies . but the falshood and vanitie of his reasons having been manifested , al these reproches do turn into his ovvn bosome , and in him is fulfilled the word of the prophet , * whiles like the raging sea , he thus casteth up mire and dirt . for god having given to his church “ diversities of giftes , diversities of administratiōs ( or offices , ) and diversities of operations , some for to † teach , some to exhort , some for to rule ; and having evidently distinguished between “ teachers , and governours ; between those elders that * rule wel , and those that labour in the word & doctrine : it must needs be the spirit of antichrist and of satan , that thus despiteth christs holy ordinances , which this adversarie himself sometime acknowledged and walked in ; and now hath forsaken , without ground of truth . but he hath more yet to say , in answering the obiections for 3. sorts of elders : which he thus * layeth down . the first objection . 1 tim. 5. 17. in this place the apostle maketh two sorts of elders , 1. those that rule onely , 2. and those that teach and rule . and ephe. 4. 11. he maketh 2. kindes of those that teach , pastors and doctors . therefore there are 3. kindes of elders formally differing each from other . mr smythes answer . the apostle to timothee teacheth that elders are to be honoured for 2. workes , wel ruling and laborious or painful teaching : and the place dooth not import a distribution of officers , but a commendation of several workes of one office : and the specialty consisteth not in the workes of ruling & teaching which are common to all elders ; but in the qualitie of the works , viz. wel ruling , and painful teaching , as if th' apostle should say . elders are to be had in double honour for wise government , but much more are they to be honoured for their laborious and painful teaching . replie . if emptie words mought cary away matters , it were woe with the truth of religion , for ech spirit of error would bear it down . a doctrin most playn , set forth in evident words ; is here turned aside , with a deceitful glosse , contrary to the tenour of the text . two several works he acknowledgeth ruling and teaching : yet two several men for these workes he wil not admit of . but had he learned the apostles word , † who is sufficient for these things ? he mought have seen a reason of the counsel of god , in adding helps to the teachers of the word . for if the apostles those excellent master builders , had need of supply , for want of sufficiencie ; how much more need have wee weaklings ? it is gods usual administration in his church , for several works to appoint several persons : so to moses he committed * the goverment political , to “ aaron the ecclesiastical . to moses he adjoyned † 70. ancients of israel ; besides the * ordinarie inferiour governours : to aaron he “ gave for a gift the whole tribe of levi. the levites had also their special distributions , † some helping the preists in sacrificing &c. some tending to song and musik , some warding the tabernacle , some looking to the treasures : al joyntly the ministers and teachers of the church . deut. 10 , 8. & 33. 10. christ also providing for the good of his church , as he hath * diversities of operations or effects to work in the same , so hath he given “ diversities of gifts , and these to † diverse persons , and also with * diversities of ministeries or offices , “ some to teach , some to exhort , some to distribute , some to rvle ; that that gift which is dimm in one man , may shine clear in an other , and the church have the use and benefit of al. now comes m. sm. and he not being able to deney the diversities of works and operations required in the church : yet dareth deney the diversities of offices , and wil have one man in one limited office of the pastor , to do al that perteyneth to exhorting , teaching , and governing of the church : though the scriptures doe so plainly distinguish . and if men excelling in the gift of exhortation , be chosen to attend unto that ministration or office of exhorting ; and others excelling in the gift of teaching , others in governing , be chosen to execute their gifts in the teachers and governours offices ; this he exclaymeth to be antichristian : for one office he thinks must doe al. to this end wresteth he these words of paul * the elders that rule wel , are worthy double honour : specially they that labour in the word & doctrine . the specialtie sayth m. s. consisteth not in the works of ruling & teaching , but in the qualitie of the works , viz , wel ruling & fupainll teaching . i deney this violent construction : and affirm the specially here added of paul , to respect a special distinct person in and for his work : as may thus be manifested . the apostle treateth of honour , and unto whom it belongeth . * honour widowes ( sayth he ) which are widowes in deed . give “ double honour to the elders that rule wel : speciallie to them that labour in the word . as honour & double honour , respecteth several persons in their several estates and imployments ; so double honour and special double honour , respecteth several persons in and for their several works and imployments ; some ruling wel , othersome labouring in the word . thus the scripture is plain . but m. s. will have the specialtie to consist in the qualitie of the work , viz , wel ruling and painful teaching , as if paul would have double honour given to them that rule and teach , but specially if they rule wel & teach painfully . but thus he neither speaketh nor meaneth . for al rule is either wel or yll : but ill rule deserves no honour , therfore it were unmeet to appoint double honour in this respect , where * open rebuke rather is due , and where losse and dammage followeth , because the work must burn . 1 cor. 3. 14. 15. but take it as the apostle speaks and intends , widowes indeed are to have honour : the wel ruling elders are to have double honour , thus it is meet , and the meaning evident . now the specialtie cometh after wel ruling , and respecteth an other work , labouring in the word : where the former word wel is again to be understood . for false teachers laboured in the word , to seduce and deceiv : such were to have no special double honour , but their “ mouths stopped , and to be † turned away from , though they creep into howses , though they use * fair speech and flattering , though they take such pains , as they “ compasse sea and land to make one of their profession . again , the word labouring makes not the specialtie : as m. smyth interpreteth it , painful teaching ; for labour is a common dutie lying upon al church officers , whose office is not in idlenes . none can rule wel but with labour : none can teach well but with labour : and therefore pavl useth this word of all the officers , 1 cor. 16. 16. so the specialty here is not for labour simply , but for labour in the word & doctrine , which some elders did ; differing from labour in government , which othersome did , as is evidēt both by this & other scriptures , as 1 cor. 12. 28. thirdly teachers ; after that governours : and rom. 12. 7. 8. he that teacheth on teaching : he that ruleth with diligence . thus several men were imployed in these several labours or works , and in respect of the persons imployed , is the word specially added , and purposly put between rulers & teachers , as if the apostle should say , they that labour in ruling are worthy of double honor , specially they that labour in teaching . and that this is pauls mind his plain words shew , when he sayth , they that rule , and they that labour : where this word , they , leadeth to diverse persons ; as in other scriptures , * they that have doon good , and they that have doon evil ; “ they that weep and they that rejoyce ; and innumerable such speeches . agayn the word specially being put between them that rule , and them that labour , confirmeth this yet more : for it increaseth the distinction : as when paul in the same epistle sayth , god is † the saviour of al men , specially of the faithful : the word specially distinguisheth the faythful from other common men of the world , who have not fayth in god , and yet are saved or preserved by him , that is the preserver of al his creatures , and saveth * man and beast . so to titus he sayth , “ there are many deceivers of minds , specially they of the circumcision ; where the word specially distinguisheth those of the circumcision from other deceivers ; and meaneth not the same , but different persons . and if here we take it not so for several persons ( where wel ruling is first set down , and specially comes after , for such as labour in the word and doctrine : ) we overthrow the force and grace of pauls gradation , or stepping to his specialty . and if he had meant as m. s. takes it , for the qualitie of the works , doon by the same persons : it should be as otherwhere paul writeth , they that ▪ labour † much or labour * more then the rest : but he speaks not so here . m. s. expounding the place of the same persons to be honoured for wise government , but much more for their painful teaching : confirmeth not his doctrine by any circumstances of this scripture , but citeth others saying , answer . that this is so see tit. 1. 9. and 1 thes. 5. 2. 1 3. with 1 tim. 3. 1. 4. in timothee the apostle sayth every bishop must be didacticos , and proistamenos : and therefore that some elders are onely didacticoi , and not proistamenoi , is contrarie to the apostles intent . further in titus , the apostle expoundeth didacticos to be able to exhort with wholsom doctrine , and to convince the gainsayers : how then shal some of the elders be rulers onely ? replie . that al bishops must be didacticoi , that is , apt and ready for to teach , reprove &c. i grant : yet that they must therfore hav al one office ideney . for apost . prophets , evangelists , &c. were al didacticoi , yet differed in office . but how then shal some of the elders be rulers onely ? i answer , even ruling elders are to be didacticoi , and yet have the office of ruling onely . for every one set over others to teach or inform them in faith or māners , must have aptnes to teach the things perteyning to their office , and convince the contrarie : or els they are unfit for the place . but have they not then the teachers office ? no , for this aptnes to teach is common to al offices of government , but in several sorts , according to every mans function . for example , an apostle must be apt to teach as an apostle : and though a man have aptnes to teach as a pastor , yet hath he not therefore aptnes as an apostle . for the office is greater , and requireth greater gifts . so a ruling elder must be apt to teach as a ruler : yet hath he not therfore aptnes to teach as a pastor , in whom greater skil is required . let us see this in israel ▪ aptnes to teach was to be in al the governours : in the whole tribe of levi generally , deut. 33. 10. in the preists of levi more specially , mal. 2. 7. deut. 24. 8. in the judges of israel also according to their office , deut. 1 , 13 , 16. with exod. 18. 15 , 16 , 21 , 22. for this cause god gave the 70. elders , the spirit of prophesie , num. 11. 17. 25. and in the reformation by k. iehoshaphat , we find not onely preists and levites , but other princes of the king , sent for to teach the people , 2 chr. 17 , 7 , 8. 9. these al were didacticoi , apt to teach , but in several respects , and measures , and in several offices . otherweise if one wil understand aptnes to teach , strictly as in the pastors office : then are pauls words to be taken figuratively † the whol for a part , or general for a particular : as a bishop , that is a teac●hing bishop , must be didacticos . and thus the scripture som●●me speaketh ; as deut. 33. 8. 10. of the whol tribe of levi , it is sayd they shal teach ; they shall put incense &c. when as , though al were to teach , yet all were not to burn incense but the * preists onely ; also in deut. 10. 8. of the tribe of levi in general , it is sayd , god separated them , to bear the ark , to stand before the lord to minister unto him , and to blesse in his name . yet were there special things about † blessing , “ bearing the ark , and other ministration , which belonged to the preists of the levits in particular . even so paul writing to timothee and titus , of the eldership in general , may note some things , which more specially perteyn to some onely in particular . touching the word proistamenos ; provost or ruler ; although i wil not deney but every elder may be so called in a large sense : yet specially it is the title of ruling elders onely . and it is an oversight in m. smyth to write that th'apostle sayth , every bishop must be proistamenos : for that word hath relation to the † ruling of his owne howse , which every bishop must be able wel to do ; but in relation to the church , the governing elders onely * are called proistamenoi ; and it is their “ peculiar titie , even as pastors and teachers are peculiar titles to others , and the name bishop and elder , † common to them all . in the last place m. sm. repeateth his former reason from ephes. 4. how the apostle sayth not some pastors , some teachers , but pastors & teachers copulatively . but that is before answered , and the playne meaning of paul manifested , to be , some pastors and some teachers , as the ancient syriak speaketh , and other reasons from that and the like scriptures do confirm . the 2 , obiection . 1 cor. 12. 5. 8. 28. the apostle sayth , ther are diversities of ministeries namely one that hath the word of wisdom , another that hath the word of knowledge , another that hath government , vers . 28. therefore the eldership consisteth of three sort of elders . &c. mr smythes answer . first it is granted that there are diversities of ministeries , as ephe. 4. 11. 1 tim. 3. 1. 8. phil. 1. 1. namely apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastors , deacons . yet it foloweth not hereupon , that elders are of divers sorts , as is pleaded . see vers . 28. agayn the word diaconia , signifyeth sometime any spiritual work proceeding from any member or officer of the church , as 2 cor. 8. 4. almes is caled diaconia , 1 pet. 4. 10. diaconein signifieth any work that proceedeth from any gift . so it may signify here : and all the works that follow almost : may be referred thither . onely there are certaine energemata mentioned in vers . 10. replie . i perceive though the light shineth in darknes , yet * the darknes comprehendeth it not : especially when men doe “ wink with their eyes , least they should see . the sun shineth not clearer at noon , then the truth shineth out of this scripture , with m. s. seeks to darken with a clowd of deceit . the apostle teacheth , first that * one and the same spirit of god , bestoweth on the church diversities of gifts ; to † one the word of wisdome , to another the word of knowledge , &c. secondly , that “ one and the same lord , ( iesus ¶ christ ) giveth to his church , diversities of ministeries or offices , that so the divers gifts may be ministred to the people , * doctrine by the teacher ; exhortation by the exhorter or pastor ; government by the ruler &c. thirdly that one and the same god ( the † father of whom are all things ) “ worketh or effecteth diversities of effects or operations in the church , by those divers gifts , and divers ministeries . for example ; as christ is given for ¶ prophet * preist and † king of the church ; a prophet to work upon the knowledge of men , that they may discern syn and righteousnes : a preist to work upon the will and affections , killing them as sacrifices , “ that a new and reasonable creature may be given up to god ; asking , that the things taught by prophesie ; and applied by preisthood , may be orderly practised in life , preserved from † all adverse power , and in the end perfected : even so in his church ( besides extraordinarie miraculous ministeries of apostles , prophets , evangelists , tongues , giftes of healing and the like , which were but for a time , ) he hath set ordinarie permanent ministeries to the worlds end ; of † teachers that by the “ word of knowledge should teach & inform the minds of men ; of ¶ pastors , that by the * word of wisdome should exhort and apply the truth vnto the conscience and hart of men ; and of † governours , that by “ diligent rule , should look unto the practise and walking of men , & conserve the church in order and peace . thus god effecteth divers effects by the divers ministeries in his church , as the apostle teacheth . now though in the enumeration of the ministeries , teachers & governours * are evidently distinguished , as thirdly teachers , after that , governours ; and elswhere as plainly distinct in their administrations , as † the elders that rule well , & they that labour in the word and doctrine : and againe , * he that teacheth on teaching : he that ruleth , with diligence : yet mr sm. would darken all this light , with this dimm answer , it folowes not hereupon that elders are of divers sorts : see verse 28. as if he should say , though th'apostle plainly speaks it , yet do not you beleeve him . so though paul expresseth the office of teachers , 1 cor. 12. 28. which m. s. wil hav to be the exegesis that is the expositiō of the word pastors ephe. 4. 11. and so must needs be the proper and plaine name of the office : yet in his book where he pleads for the abomination of anabaptisme , he thus proclaimeth , among other challenges , * loe. we protest against them , to have a false ministerie of doctors or teachers : as if he would have the world to take notice , that he meaneth to warr against heaven . with like grace striveth he against the word diaconia , ministerie , ( which the apostle useth , 1 cor. 12. 5. ) saying that it signifyeth sometime any spirituall work &c. and , so it may signifie here . but if such shifting & winding may be admitted , we shal have no truth so plain , but may be oppugned : yea iudaisme and atheisme may be mainteyned . for we allege against iewes to prove the death of christ how the angel prophesied messiah shal be slayn dan. 9. 26. i , sayth the iew , but messiah somtime signifieth any one that is anoynted ; preist or king ; & so may it here be meant of any anointed governor , & not of him that is properly the messiah . tel an atheist that “ god made heaven and earth ; and he may answer that aelohim god is somtime vsed to signify angels , psal. 8. 5. with heb. 2. 7. sometime to signify magistrates , psal. 82. 1. 6. and therfore he beleevs not any such god properly , as we professe . thus every truth , upon a diverse use of the word , may be turnd away . but sheweth mr. sm. any reason , why diaconia should so signifie here ? none at all : but sayth , so it may be , and telleth of certayn energemata mentioned vers . 10. which is as much to the edifying of the reader , as if he had told him there are certayn giants † of the sons of anak , with whom it is not safe to meddle . he should not thus trouble the reader with clowds ; the truth is cleare and playn . for diaconia is the most proper fit word that the apostle could possibly use ; it being the ordinarie word used for ministerie of every kind ; as the ministerie or office of the apostleship , rom. 11. 13. 1 tim. 1. 12 , the ministerie of the evangelists , 2 tim. 4. 5. the ministerie of pastors or teachers , col. 4. 17. the ministerie of rulers , and ministerie of deacons , rom. 12. 7. 8. act. 6. 1 tim. 3. 12. 13. so diaconos is everie minister , and diaconia everie ministerie or administration of what sort soever . now paul here spake † before of divers gifts to be administred ; and * after of divers effects or operations of the gifts being administred ; & between “ booth mentioneth diversities ( diaconioon ) of ministeries or offices wherby those gifts should be administred and manifested in the church , that they might be effectual : which what can they be , but the offices or ministeries committed to men and executed by them for this end ? even as immediately foloweth * the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withall . and after by a similitude of † the body , and members , applied “ to the church and officers , he confirmeth the same . but though the wisdom of god * powreth out her mind unto us , and maketh us to understand her words : yet some men † wil none of her counsel , they dispise all her correction . the 3 objection . the apostle rom. 12. 6. 8. maketh an opposition between prophesie and an office and maketh five kinds of officers , pastors , teachers , rulers , deacons , widowes . m. s. answer . that is denyed to be the true resolution of the place &c. for although there be five several actions repeted , yet doth it not follow that there are five several officers to perform those actions : for one person may perform them al , and yet be no officer , viz. teach , exhort , rule , distribute , shew mercy . 1 cor. 14. 3. 26. 31. rom. 12 , 13. 1 cor. 5. 5. replie . behemoth is so big that he “ trusteth to draw up iarden into his mouth ; but no beast ( i trow ) weeneth that he can drink up all the waters of the sea . korah thought so wel of his † holynes and abilitie , that though he were but an ordinarie levite , he could doe the preists office also : but i never heard of man til now , that could perform al the actions that are to be doon in a church . the apostles could not * tend to two offices therein at once , but got others to doe one ; & notwithstanding complayned of their inabilitie in that , saying “ who is sufficient for these things ? and may one person now perform al actions ? needs must the works become much more easie ; or the person that dooth them , much more mightie , then any that lived in the apostles time . how ever it may be in distresse and extremitie , that one man may do som things one after another , about al these actions , yet perform them he cannot . and who but one striken † with madnes and blindnes and astonying of hart , ( as moses did prophesie ) to grope at noon day , as the blind gropeth in darknes , could read this scripture rom. 12. and the other places cited , & gather such a doctrine from them ? the apostles purpose in rom. 12. is to perswade unto vertue , among vertues specially to * sobrietie or modestie , which bewtifieth al good actions . hereunto he perswadeth by this , that every man hath but his part and mesure from god , & one hath not al. this he confirmeth by the similitude of the “ body , whose members have not al one office or action , but many : † so is it with the church ; for god hath given * divers gifts unto the many members or persons of the same ; some have simplie the gift of prophesie , which they may use to the edifying of the church , some have an † office or ministerie also whereunto they are appointed and must attend . some are teachers , * some exhorters , some distributers , some rulers , some shewers of mercy . every one of these must look to the administration and dispensation of his gift , in sobrietie , according to the measure and vocation that he hath from god , for the good of the whole body of the church . the like doctrine is taught again , 1 cor. 12. 4. 5. 8 — 12. &c. now let him that readeth consider , whither m. sm , doctrine that one person may perform al these , be not as directly opposite to the apostles meaning and scope , as darknes to light ? but he hath yet more to answer . answer . agayn the distributive particle eite fowre times repeted , in prophesie , diaconia , exhorting , and teaching , importeth thus much : that the apostles intention is not to subordinate teaching and exhorting to diaconia , but to oppose ech of these 4. particulars to other , as thus : prophesie is the manifestation of a gift , 1 cor. 14. 3. diaconia is the office , & there are divers kinds therof 1 cor. 12. 5. teaching is one action or work of the prophets or officers 1 cor. 14. 26. exhorting is another action or work of them . 1 cor. 14. 3. hence it foloweth that teaching & exhorting are aswel subordinate to prophesie as to diaconia . replie . thorns and snares ( sayth “ solomon ) are in the way of the froward : that find we here . for to trouble and intangle the simple reader , al shifts are sought out , least truth should prevaile . first the objection was of m. smyths own contriveing , as he liked best to answer : otherweise he could not ( i suppose ) be ignorant , that most learned men of these times , ( so far as i have seen ) though they detest his error , do grant his conclusion . but he concludes not the question , namely that 1. teaching , 2. exhorting , 3. distributing , 4. ruling , 5. shewing mercy , are al to be performed in the church by one person : or that paul intends any such thing here . i have before shewed the contrarie . but i wil labour to break his snare , that the simple fal not therin . diaconia he rightly interpreteth office , and sayth , there are diverse kinds thereof : citing 1 cor. 12. 5. let this be compared compared with his answer before to the second objection : where he pleaded that diaconia in 1 cor. 12. 5. mought signifie a work . there he set himself to cavil against the truth , here unawares he granteth it . wel , seing diaconia here is an office ; and there be offices divers : let us proceed . teaching ( sayth he ) is one work of the prophets or officers ; exhorting is an other work of them . of them , i grant ; for they are divers : but is it of him , that is of one and the same officer ? is ther any word or title that intimateth this ? none at al , but the contrarie : for as the apostle mentioneth divers works , teaching exhorting &c. so mentioneth he divers persons , the teacher , the exhorter , the distributer , the ruler . neyther doth he say , let him that teacheth , teach , & exhort , & distribute , and rule , as if one man should do al : but , let him that teacheth teach , let him that exhorteth exhort . as if he should speak of the members of the body ( which similitude he used ) let that which seeth , see circumspectiv : let that which heareth , hear attentively ; let that which speaketh , speak warily &c. would any reasonable man think , that one member must doe al these actions , that the eye because it seeth , it also must hear , and speak : and not understand this of the three several members , the eye , ear , and tongue ? even so unreasonable is the collection , that paul should mean one person to do those several actions . but m. s. striving about the particle eite , which signifieth whither & or , & applying it to the 4. particulars ; maketh the two last to be teaching & exhorting : wherein he useth deceit for advantage . for he putteth the action for the actor that doth it . the apostle sayth , or he that teacheth , or he that exhorteth , so noting two persons : m. sm. sayth or teaching , or exhorting , so noting two actions . thus he intending to have many actions doon by one person , wresteth the scripture , and maketh it speak after his own fansie . this being observed , his pleading about eite wil be little worth , for the apostle by it , dis joyneth things thus . * gifts ye have divers , which gifts ye use and manifest , either by prophesie ( which “ any private person in the church may doe , even as al other like gifts , of † tongues , interpretations , psalmes and the like : ) or by ministerie that is by office and charge layd upon you , which as it * is divers , so every one must “ attend unto , and look that he † fulfil the same thus is here a ful and perfect distribution of al the gifts that are in the church , by the two general sorts of persons , or subjects that have them : 1. private brethren , or 2. publik officers . this first division being perfect : that which followeth is an under division , or an other division , not of the gifts , but of the persons that have the gifts : which are five , 1. teachers , 2. exhorters , 3. distributers , 4. rulers , 5. shewers of mercie . the two first whereof have the signe of disjunction or before thē , in the other it is to be understood : for such defect is cōmon . now al these persons are to be referred , eyther to the former 1. prophesie , or 2. ministerie , that is office : or both . but seing no scripture , that i know of , speaketh of distribution , or ruling , or shewing mercie , under the name of prophesie : therefore i refer them to the latter word office or ministerie , to which they al agree . teaching and exhorting i grant are doon in † prophesie , by private brethren : but that they are more specially doon in * ministerie by publik officers , none i think wil deney . and that here paul referrs them to ministerie , seemeth to me most evident : for prophesie was limited by him , “ according to the proportion of fayth : so that if any brother in prophesying , kept unto the proportion of fayth he did yenough : but an officer must not onely do this , but must also attend vnto the continual doing of it , † in season , out of season , * privatly , publikly , and therfore must “ give himself hereunto ; whereas a private brother followeth other vocation , and speaketh but † when he seeth occasion . for this cause , paul sayth here , * an office should be in the office , or ministerie in the ministration : meaning that it should be waited upon , and executed in sobrietie . and then comming to the teacher and exhorter , he useth like speech , in doctrine & in exhortation , meaning that they should give themselves to these works , and execute them with modestie . so the officers , rather then the private brethren ( upon whom no such burden is layd ) seem here to be intended by teacher & exhorter , and so consequently diverse officers , as there be divers actions for them to perform , and have diverse gifts of god for the same end . but m. s. continueth his answer thus . further if diaconia be the genus to these 5. species folowing , then i say that diaconia signifieth not an office , but a work : and of workes there are those 5. kindes . that diaconia doth sometime signify a work is plaine . 2 cor. 8. 4. 1 pet. 4. 10. lastly , the apostle that knew how to speak would never have made teaching and exhortation members distributive with prophesie and diaconia , if he had intended to make them species subordinate to diaconia : therfore questionlesse that is not his intention . rather then he wil yeeld to the truth , he seeks every corner of error : and now the diverse use of the word diaconia must agayne be urged , against the proper meaning of the same , against the evident light of this scripture , & against the mans own former interpretation . and sure he is used to rough wayes and words , that sayth it is playne , diaconia signifies a work : the scriptures that he quoteth shew it not . the word signifieth ministerie or office , and ministration or service doon unto any other : but work is an unproper interpretation . let linguists judge . nay let m. s. himself judge , if he wil be tried by himself ; for in his book against m. bernard ( written after this ) he hath this proposition ; † the true ministerie hath a true office , in execution wherof it is exercised ; rom. 12. 7. 1. cor. 12. 5. 28 eph. 4. 11. i would gladly know how m. sm. wil prove his aslertion from these scriptures , if diaconia do not signify an office in this place . but it is gods special judgement against haeretiks , that they should be * autocatacrit●i , condemned of themselves . yet were it translated work , what would it help him ? of workes there are 5. kindes sayth he . who denyes it ? but are there not also as many kind of workers ? let this be disproved : otherweise to strive for the former , is to fight with his shadow . the apostle ( we doubt not ) knew wel how to speak ; and therefore spake not as m. s. feighneth , of teaching & exhortation as distributive members ; but of the teacher and exhorter . and all men know that an office and officer have fit reference each to other ; so ministerie being mentioned in generall , the several ministers ar fitly next named . but of this point i spake before . the 4. objection the apostle by the commandement of christ ; writeth to the angels of the ● ▪ churches of asia rev. 1. & 2. & 3. that is to the pastors which ar but one in every particular church . for so the wordes are , to the angel of the church , &c. mr smythes answer . first it can never be proved by scriptures , that there was but one pastor in a church , it is playn , act. 20. 28. that ther were many in the church of ephesus , ( that was one of those 7. churches ) that did perform the work of the pastor , which is poimainein to feed ; even all the elders vers . 17. with verf. 28. and therefore ther were many pastors in that church in pauls time . againe , al churches had officers of one sort , & one kind of presbyterie ; &c. replie . this is the last objection which m. sm. maketh and answereth . other reasons many there are , more pregnant : this alone without conference with other scriptures , i know will not prove many sorts of officers but it may serve to confirm the point thus : seing in ephesus the were * many elders ; & christ here directeth his epistle to the † angel or messenger of that church ; this seemeth to be one that had the principal charge of the whol , that is the pastor . but it can not be proved ( sayth m. s. ) that there was but one pastor in a church . neyther can it be proved ( say i ) that there were many . yes sayth he , al the elders in ephesus were * poimainein to feed , or doe the pastors work therfore there were many pastors . i answer , it followeth not ; for the reasō deceiveth by aequivocatiō or double meaning of the word . pastor , generally taken is any governour ; paricularly and strictly ( wherof now we speak ) it is the “ exhorter , or he that hath * the word of wisdome . in the general meaning christ is † the pastor , the apostles “ pastors , * all the elders of a particular church ar pastors . wil he conclude hereupon , that an apostle and a pastor properly so called , is all one office ? the apostle sheweth the contrarie , ephes. 4. 11. as then an apostle and a pastor be diverse officers , though both doe poimainein , feed : so pastors , teachers , rulers , may be different officers , though all do poimainein , that is feed & rule the flock . the pastors in israel , in the scriptures which he before alleged , ier. 23. 1. ezek. 34. 2 , had they al one particular office ? farr otherwise . for preists and levites were distinct in office , and other elders distinct from them both , as before i have manifested . yea not onely the sacrificers , but the civil governors were pastors . k. dauid was a pastor “ taken to feed iaakob and israel . accordingly in act. 20. & 1. pet. 5. al the elders may feed , & yet not al be in one & the same , but in distinct office . answer further , ( sayth mr. sm. ) the angel of every one of those churches , dooth not signfy one pastor onely in every church , but eyther the college of pastors if they were many , or the company of the most sincere and holy men , that most opposed the corruptions of the church , or were most holy and zelous in life & doctrine . that an angel signifieth a company of men , is plaine , rev. 14. 6. 8. 9. & 18 , 4. replie . it is not playn , but very obscure and figurative , if an angel signifies at any time , a company of men ; the scriptures alleged shew it not . for though there is no angel or messenger mentioned , but there is a people also implied , to whom he is a messenger ; as there is no pastor , but implieth a flock ; yet is not the pastor the flock , nor the angel the people . special persons are rather noted by the angels in my judgement . to take the angel for a company of the most syncere and holy men ; is further from the mark : seing some are written to , in whom little zele or sinceritie can be gathered , rev. 3. 1. 15. and to passe by the officers , and direct the letters to private persons , and such especially ; is not according to order ; encommended by christ to the church , 1 cor. 14. 40. answer . lastly ( sayth m. s. ) in all likelyhood there were some extraordinary men yet living in the churches , eyther prophets or evangelists , that had extraordinarie gifts , whose zele and holynes might win them special estimation in the churches : in regard whereof it might be the holy ghost intending his epistles to the whole church , cheefly directeth them to these persons so qualified , as men best able to prevayl with the church , and caleth them angels , whether one or more : as iohn the baptist is caled an angel. mark. 1. 2. replie any thing hath more likelihood with mr. sm. then that which is most likely to be true . can this have all likelihood , that the evangelists or prophets extraordinarie , on whose * foundation christs church is builded , should come to that corrupt estate , which some of these angels were come into ? rev. 3. 1. 15. hath it al likelihood that such as were officers of all the churches in generall , should be intitled angels of particular churches ? but it seemeth m. sm. thinketh the name angel must needs import some zelous or godly person : wherin he is mistaken . for the angels are the † starrs in the firmament of the church , and of these starrs or angels , many are “ cast by the dragons tayl , from heaven to earth , and some have * the key of the bottomlesse pit ; & some angels † hold the wind of gods spirit from blowing on the earth . so that the angels or starrs in the book of revelation , usually signify the ministers of the churches , whither good or evil . who rather in likelihood haue the title of angels or messengers given unto them , both from the like title given by god himself to the preists of israel , mal. 2. 7. and by the iewes common phrase , who called him that was cheif ruler in their synagogues , sheliach tsibbur , that is the legate or messenger of the congregation ; which name sheliach the rabbines * use for maleach an angel ; and the chaldee paraphrast putteth meshammesh that is , a minister , in the sted . now christ used to speak familiarly and to the understanding of the people , & so i doubt not but he dooth here . and although it be questionable whither there may be moe pastors then one in a church ; yet see i no likelihood of moe then one here ; though many elders . for the pastor both by his name ¶ gift & “ imployment , hath special charge of the flock in such things as christ writeth of to these churches . and as archippus in the church at colosse is in special charged to † take heed to his ministerie to fulfil it , ( though it is to be thought there were moe elders with him , as * in al other churches : ) so mought polycarpus ( the pastor in iohns time of the church in smyrna , as ‘“ writers record ; ) be * written to in special , to look to his ministerie , and so the other pastors , the angels , in their severall churches ; that by them christs mind , mought be signified to the congregations . this course god taketh usually ; his messengers the watchmen are to hear the word at his mouth , and give the people warning from him ezek. 3. 17. things that concerned the whole church of israel , were first spoken from god to moses , from moses to the elders , from them to the people : exod. 19. 3. 7. and exod. 12 , 1 , 3 , 21. god doth nothing but he reveleth his secret to his servants the prophets , amos. 3. 7. so in this revelation , god † gave it to christ , christ to an angel , ( properly so called ; ) the angel to iohn : and iohn writeth to the angel of the church , the minister : that by him it may come to al the congregation . thus have we heard the reasons and arguments whereby m. sm. laboureth to manifest that the triformed presbyterie ( as he calleth it ) consisting of three kinds of elders , pastors , teachers , rulers , is none of gods ordinance , but mans device : and antichristian . wherein what weaknes or vanity rather , hath appeared , the judicious reader , may discern ; & how litle cause this chalenger had , to cry out the second time for an answer , with , * loe , we protest against them to have a false government of a triformed presbyterie , but christ who hath set these for officers in his church , and holdeth al the starrs in his right hand ; wil rescue & deliver them from the hand of aliants , “ whose mouth talketh vanitie , and their right hand is a right hand of falshood . of the treasvrie . the last point of difference from us mr. smyth setteth down thus † we hold that in contributing to the church treasurie , there ought to be both a separation from them that ar without , and a sanctification of the whole action by prayer and thanksgiving . of these & other points about the deacons office , he speaketh * after in his book . wherein , if he would have his readers think we differ in al , he notably abuseth both them and us . but of the two points mentioned in his article , i will breifly intreat . first , for the separatiō frō thē vvithout , thus he writeth “ there ought to be a separation in almes and contribution to the treasurie , as wel as in other parts of our spiritual cō●union . act. 4. 32. & 5. 13. 2 cor. 6. 17. act. 2. 42. heb. 13. 16. 2 cor. 8. 7. therf●●e they that are without , if they give any thing , must lay it a part severally from the treasurie , & it must be imployed to common use . mat. 27. 6. 7. how m. s. gathereth his proposition frō those scriptures , & how farr he wil stretch them , i cannot tel : the first place ( act , 4 , 32. ) mentioneth cōmunitie of al goods among the saincts : the second place act. 5. 13. sheweth how no other man durst joyn unto thē : the third place 2 cor. 6. 17. requireth gods people to come out and separate from unbeleevers , and touch no unclean thing . if he match these things thus togither , as if the goods of unbeleevers ar uncleā , & not to be touched or received of the saincts , he misseth of pauls intent : for upon this ground , that † the earth is the lords , and the plentie of it : the apostle proveth it lawful for christians to partake with unbeleevers at their table in * whatsoever things is set before them : so that meat drink , clothing , or money may be received from them : neither are these or any like outward things , the unclean things that he forbids to touch , 2 cor. 6. 17. consequently , if we may goe to their table , we may hav them at ours : if in our povertie we may receiv releef of thē : in their povertie , we may and should releev them : wherfore there is that cōmunion in these carnal things permitted : which in spiritual things , as prayer , sacraments &c. is unlawful : & though it be sayd act 2. 42. they continued in the apost . doctrine , fellowship , breaking of bread , & prayer : yet he that shal gather we may have no more communion with an unbeleever in eating & drinking , then in prayer ; mistaketh quite . we know that to the defiled & unbeleeving no thing is pure , “ as paul sayth , but unto the pure al things are pure : and if an idol cānot defile gods creature so , but a christian may † use it , ( so it be not with offence ) neither can the idolater . in some outward things , i observe difference between the iewes state and ours . they went not in to , nor ate with men uncircūcised , act. 10. 28. & 11 , 3. we go in to men unbaptised , & eat with them , 1 cor. 10 , 27. they did not eat of al meats set before thē by infidels , dan. 1. 8. we do eat of al that is set before us by such , 1 cor. 10. 25. 26 , 27. they admitted not an uncircumcised into the temple eze. 44 9. act. 21 , 28 , 29. we forbid not any unbaptised to come into our assemblies . 1 cor. 14. 23 — 25 , notwithstanding his i find amōg them , that solomon asked & received outward things as timber for the temple , * of huram king of tyre : & king darius gave “ of his owne revenues towards the tēple & worship of god , & it was not refused . in israel i find not that any admitted into the publik place of the word and prayers , was forbidden there if he would to contribute : neither any such law made by christ. rather the ground layd by the apostle sheweth the contrarie : if the gentiles ( sayth he ) be made partakers of their spiritual thinges , their duetie is also to minister unto them in carnal things . rom. 15. 27. vnbeleevers are admitted to the ministerie of the word in christian assemblies , & so made partakers of our spiritual things ; if then & there they wil give of their carnal things , upon what ground may we refuse them ? it is alleged , how 2 cor. 8. 7. the communion of almose is called a grace , and in heb. 13. 16. a sacrifice . i acknowledge it thus to be in the saincts , whither they give it in publik or private . for when he sayth , † to do good and to communicate forget not , for with such sacrifices god is wel pleased ; he meaneth it not onely of publik contribution in the church , but of private distribution to any at any time . paul brought almose and offrings to his nation act. 24. 17. and himself received such a sacrifice from the philippians , philip. 4. 18. and if any one christian in private had sent him the like , had it not been a sacrifice also ? wherfore the almose of the saincts are sacrifices , though one give to another * in secret : yea if a christian releev “ an unbeleever in povertie and distresse , it is a sacrifice and sweet odour to god. if therfore upon this ground we may not receiv it of unbeleevers in the publik church , because it is in the saincts a communion of grace and sacrifice : how may we receiv it of such in private ? but ( sayth m. sm. ) they that are without if they give any thing , must lay it apart , several from the treasurie , & it must be imployed to common use . mat. 27. 6. 7. this position i wil not absolutely condemn : neyther can i yet grant it , for the proof is insufficient . for wheras the iewes ( mat. 27 ) would not put iudas wages into their treasurie , it was not because he was one without ; for iudas was a iew , no strāger unto them : but because it was the price of blood , therfore they mought not put it into the treasurie . this teacheth us , that goods gotten by violence , extorsion , murder , theft or other like evil way : may not be put into the treasurie , though the members of the church do offer them . but this is no more for those without , then for those within . and for common use of al unbeleevers gifts ; i suppose this example wil not bear it out . for if in the povertie and distresse of christs church , they which are not of the same , minister releif thereunto , ( which if they doe not , it shal be one reason of their * condemnation at the day of judgment : ) hath not the church libertie to use & injoy these benefits for themselves , seing † the earth is the lords and the plentie thereof ? must they needs bestow it for the behoof of strangers , as was iudas hire ? i am otherwise minded , for the reasons before rendred . howbeit concerning these things if any shall better inform us , by the word of god , we shal be willing to receiv it . for the latter branch , that it should be sanctified with blessing or thanks giving to god , we do wel approve ; upō that general ground of thanks unto god for al his benefits : and as any do give or send more special releef , so more special thanks to be rendred therfore , as we are directed , 2 cor. 9. 12 — 15. albeit for the manner of performing this thing , as whither a special prayer is to be made before the contributiō , & a special thanksgiving after : or whither in the general prayers of the church , it is to be sanctified among other the publik actions ; there may be some question , and i wil not contend : let every one use herein , the wisedom that god giveth them . onely i do observ , how m. sm. himself makes * a quere , at what time of the lords day , and after what manner the treasurie is to be collected : which sheweth in him no certaintie for the form of this busines . & i doubt not but as he , so we al may be to seek , for the most covenient māner & order of doing many things : wherein if any lust to be contentious , i say with the apostle , “ we have no such custome , neither the churches of god. a few observations upon some of m. smythes censures , in his answer to m. bernard . mr smyth in his “ late book , caled parallels , censures &c. seeks occasion to censure some things which i had written in answer to mr. bern. but cheifly insisteth upon the question of ecclesiastical goverment , wherabout he chargeth me with antichristianisme . if it were not for others that may stumble at this reproch , i would bear it in silence ; minding my adversarie so fickle and unconstant , as he holdeth almost to nothing that himself hath written ; and i would restin gods work , who as already he hath made this man † like unto a wheel , so , if he repent not , in due time will make him † like stubble before the wind . for from the faith which he defended in that his book he presently after , in great mesure fel away himself . the constitutiō of our church , ( in which estate himself then professed to be with us , ) he writeth of it thus “ i am bould to pronounce &c. our true constitution to be the most honorable and bewtiful ornament of our church ; more glorious then our true ministerie , worship , and goverment . contrary to this , a few dayes after , he setts out the character of the beast , wherin ( having dissolved & forsaking his former true and glorious constitution , ) he exclaimeth against us , ( as before * i haue shewed , ) as having a false church falsly constituted , and therfore no one ordinance of the lord true among us . thus † wormwood fell from heaven . agayn in this answer to mr. bernard he acknowledgeth , “ the apostate church of the 10. tribes in the old testament to be a church falsly constituted ; and so the churches of antichrist in the n. testament : contraryweise in his character of the beast , seking shifts for his anabaptisme , he sayth † israels apostasie did not destroy the true constitution of the church , but antichrists doeth , &c. i leave these and other like flowers of contradiction , for others to gather that deal in that controversie . onely because his answer to mr. bern. seemeth to be written in defence of our cause , and so may be taken of posteritie : i would have the reader take notice , that the silver there is mixt with drosse and the wine , with the * gal of aspes . as where mr. sm. sayth , that “ to the constitution of the typical church , ( meaning the church of israel ) there was not required true holynes but ceremonial cleannes . this is a false and blasphemous assertiō , injurious to gods holy majestie , as making him to constitutea church of hypocrites : & it is evidently overthrown by the covenants made between god and them ; gen. 17. exod. 19. 5. 6. 8. exod. 20. and 21. &c. and 24. 3. 4. 7. 8. levit. 19. 2. with 1. pet . 1. 15 16. deut. 5. 1. 2. 3. and 26. 17. 18. 19. and 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. &c. so when he sayth , the israelites * did worship to repentance , we doo worship from repentance : therfore they might and did worship , therby to reconcile themselves to god , we being reconciled to god and accepted in christ , doe proceed to offer to the lord the calves of our lips , the best grace we have with us , first men declare their repentance ▪ and then we receive them into our cōmuniō to worship with us : with thē first men were received into typical cōmuniō , and then they were trayned up to repentance and faith in christ &c. these & the like distinctions mr. sm. hath fetched out of his own hart , not from the word of god : for although ther be differences many between them and us , as touching outward rites and services , ended & abolished by christ , ( as the epistle to the ebrues sheweth ; ) yet as touching the substance of their religion , worship , constitution &c. as touching repentance , faith , reconciliation to god &c. ther was no such differences as mr. sm. feighneth . they had the law to shew them their fyn , and to bring them to christ : so have we . mat. 5. 17. rom. 3 30. 31 and 7. 7. — 12. 21. &c. iam. 2. 8. 9. 10. 11. we have the gospel , to shew us our righteousnes by christ , without works of the law : so had they , heb. 4. 2. levit. 26 42 — 45. with luk. 1. 54. 55 ▪ 72. 73. deut. 30. 1. — 12. 13. 14. with rom. 10. 5. 6. — 8. gen. 15. 6. psal. 32. 1. 2. with rom. 4. 6. &c. 1 cor. 10. 1. 2. 3. 4. hebr. 11. onely in the manner of administration the law & gospel , ther be differences manifested . also when he * sayth , that the iewes moral uncleannes did not pollute their ceremonial communion ; that their real wickednes did not pollute their ceremonial or typical church , worship and communion ; but lawfully they might have typical communion in typical worship , that were typically clean , though they were wicked in deed : these assertions , manifest m. s. to be not onely a typical but a real seducer and deceiver of minds in deed ; who would make us beleeve that if a man in israel had but touched his own wife lying † in her child-bed , or put aapart for her disease ; if he came to worship in ●●e tabernacle , and had not washed and clensed himself according to the law , he polluted the church and communion of the saincts : but though he had committed adulterie with his neighours wife , and came into the tabernacle in his syn to worship , without repentance ; yet he polluted not the church , but lawfully mought have communion in the word , prayer , sacrifices &c. which unclean doctrine is evidently condemned , by these and many other like scriptures . levit. 4. 2. 3. 13. 14. 22. 23. 27. 28. 35. levit. 6. 2 — 7. num. 15. 22. 23. 24. 27. 29. 30. 31. levit. 19. 17. levit. 18. 29. 30. iosh. 22. 16. 17. 18. 20. but upon these and like rotten grounds , m. s. hath now sought to build his towr of anabaptisme , which the breath of the lord , wil throw down upon his head . although therfore the cause which m. s. then had in hand was good , and many good things are in that book ; yet the * dead flyes have caused to stink , and putrified the ointment of the apothecarie : as in these so in other points , which the wise must observe . leaving therefore those things , i come to the matter which he maketh against me , and in his foresayd book of parallels , pag. 67. hath thus inveighed . but mr ains . steppeth up with a new kind of antichristianisme , never heard of before : and he teacheth us , if we wil beleeve him , that christs ruling power is in the eldership ; and that the pope and prelates , ar * not antichrists , for taking into their hands the power of the multitude , but the power of christ. here first mr s. maketh his owne collection , to be my assertion . i sayd not , neyther would say thus absolutely , christs ruling power is in the eldership , my words are these ( counterp . pa. 176 ) we acknowledge christ to have ordeyned a * presbyterie or eldership , and that in † every church : for to “ teach and rule them by his owne word and lawes . that which i wrote , i plainely confirmed by scriptures in the margine , which the reader may serch and judge of : neyther hath this adversarie taken them away ; or sayd ought against them ; or yet set them downe in his book ( where he * printed my words ) for his reader to take notice of . that which i have written , is further confirmed , for the substance of it , by mr sm. himself , in the very same book of parallels , the last page but one , where he hath set down this argument . the goverment of the primitive apostolik institution , was by a college of pastors , or presbyterie . the goverment of the english assemblies , is by an antichristian prelate and his officers . therfore , the goverment of the english assemblies is not the primitivs apostolik goverment . the maior is evident ; &c. agayn , in this very passage , where he treateth of popular goverment , he is driven into such straits , as force him to say : † we dispute not whither the elders must rule or not : but we dispute who hav the negative voice , &c. and a little after : yet we say the elders are to lead and govern al persons and causes of the church . who now wil not wonder , at this mans malice , to charge me with antichristianisme for my writing : and himself in the same book , to write as he hath doon . and were i● in deed antichristianisme , as he sayth , which i have stepped up with : yet he overlasheth with his tongue , in calling it a new kind , & neverheard of before ; considering what he had heard before of m. bernard , ( if not of others ) as the opinion of those that he caleth puritans . but let us turn the edge of his own argument against himself , thus : the goverment of the primitive apostolik institution , was by a college of of pastors or presbyterie . ( this m. s. himself defendeth , ) but popular goverment by the multitude , is not the goverment by a college of pastors or presbyterie . therfore , popular goverment by the multitude ( which yet m. sm. would also plead for , ) is not the goverment of the primitive apostolik institution . agayn his argument helpeth me thus , the goverment of the primitive apostolik institution is not antichristianisme . the goverment which j plead for , in answer to m. bern. is the goverment of the primitive apostolik institution ; ( for it is the goverment by the presbyterie , ) therfore the goverment which i plead for is not antichristianisme . thus mought m. sm. have been better advised what he censured in me : if he had duly weighed , what he wrote himself . in his confutation of my writing , he first would * have it remembred , that the power of christ which they speak of , is a ministeriall delegated power , given to man &c. i answer , that i had to deal with m. bernards book , and knew nothing at all , of 〈◊〉 which had passed between m. s. and him : but finding him to have set down things so badly , as that he mought make his reader beleev , there was no other difference , between papist , protestant , puritan , and brownist , ( as he caleth them , ) concerning church goverment ; then onely who should administer the same : whither the pope , or a prelate , or the presbyterie , or the multitude : i thought it needful in my answer , to shew the reader a furder difference , even in the power and jurisdiction it self , which whosoever do administer , they make themselves antichrists : seeing the pope & al papal prelates , challenge such ruling power , as incrocheth upon christs own right : besides their usurping of the power of the church . and where i say that the pope is antichrist , not for taking into his hands the power of the multitude , but of christ , to rule and govern the church as head of the same : my meaning was not altogither to free the pope of antichristianitie , for taking the power of the multitude , which i acknowledge to be a heighnous syn in him : but for to shew by way of comparison , that the other syn is much greater , to usurp the power of christ. and thus i write , not onely from the general equitie of the law , which † maketh a syn against god , to be much more then a syn against man : but also from the like speeches in the scriptures . for when ieremie sayd in the lords name to israel , * j spake not to your fathers , nor commanded them when j brought them out of the land of aegypt , concerning burnt-offrings and sacrifices : but this thing i commanded them , obey my voyce &c & when paul “ sayd christ sent me not to baptise but to preach , &c. neyther of them denyed simply , the things which god had plainly † spoken , & * paul practised ; but onely by way of comparison : even so doe i. and yet if i should stand upon fit and proper termes , i would not cal the pope antichrist , for doing that which the people in christian libertie should do : but for doing that which christ onely is to do , who is l. and head of the church . even as the apostle iohn maketh such to be antichrists in his dayes , as denyed iesus “ to be the christ , or come in the flesh : so al that in these dayes , deney or oppugn christ , are properly antichrists : and they that bereave the brethren of their libertie , are tyrans & oppressors of the church . but as things ar some time taken largely , he that synneth against his neighbour , may be sayd to syn against † god & * christ. anabaptists , arrians , and al other heretiks , ar antichrists : & so i acknowledge the pope for robbing the church of her power , may be called antichrist . but m. sm. to help the pope , if therby he may think to hurt me , pleadeth “ that the pope doth not assume that power which christ as king hath in his own hands reserved to himself . this is catholikly spokē of him and very favourably on the popes part : but how truly , let the sequel shew . the the pope assumeth this power , to be rector of the universal church ; director of the lords universal flock : ( p. bonifac. 8. sexto . decretal . cap. vbi . ) to be cephas , that is ( by his interpretatiō ) caput , the head of the apostolik church . ( anaclet . dist . 22. cap. sacrosācta . ) to be lex animata in terris , a living law in earth ; whose sentence & judgment must stand , as given out of heaven by the mouth of peter himself . sext. decret . c. ab arbitris . glosa . p. agatho . dist , 19. c. sic omnes . which sentence no man must break nor retract , no mā must dispute or doubt of . ( p. nicol. 9. q. 3. c. patet . p. jnnoc . 2. art. 17. q. 4. si quis . ) the pope assumeth this power , to be-set of god over nations and kingdoms , to pluck up , and to root out &c. even to judge the princes of the earth ; to be one and the same head with christ of the visible church : and therfore every earthly creature if he wil be saved , must of necessitie be subject to the pope . ( bonifac. 8. extrav . c. unam sanctam . de maior . & obed . ) he by romish religion , is that one † pastor , over the one fold : god himself and he his vicar , have but one consistorie . ( hosti ens . in cap. quant . de trans . praeb . ) under his feet are al things subdued , * sheep and oxen & beasts of the field , fowls of heaven , and fishes of the sea , that is to say , ( in catholik interpretation ) iewes , heretiks , pagans , christen men of al sorts , angels in heaven , and sowles in purgatorie antonin . sum . maior . 3. part . dist . 22. as for emperours and kings , ( whom god himself honoureth “ vvith his ovvn title of gods , ) they may serv to hold the popes stirrop , or kisse his foot : for they be more inferior to him , then lead is inferiour to gold . p. gelasius . dist. 96. cap. duo . wherfore his doctors have kept decorum , in giving him the titles of the highest god ; as optimus , maximus , most good and most great , & supremum in terris numen , ( staplet . in princ . fid . doct . praef . ad greg. 13 ) yea dom. deus nosterpapa , our lord god the pope , can. extravag . iohan. 22. c. cum inter . in glosa . these and many moe like testimonies vvhich might be alleged , vvil tel every wise hart , whither the pope assumes not the power which chr. hath reserved to himself : and whither m. s. had not a greater splen against me , then against the pope : when to contradict what i had written , he sets down , * that properly the pope is not antichrist , for chalenging christs kingly power proper to himself : & in another place also sayth , † the pope is not antichrist , for that he usurpeth that regal power which is proper to christ : but is antichristian for usurping the delegated power . &c. as for his freindly qualifications , * that the pope claimeth to be a ministerial head ▪ vnder christ , & in that he dooth many actions proper to christ himself , it is but the misinterpretation of his ministerial headship , not understanding how far it extendeth , &c. these are but colours to hide the filthines of that skarlet whore , who surmounting in arrogancie all the children of pride , yet wil needs be called servant of the servants of god. but i sett downe , not what the pope and papal prelates say they be ; ( for the divil wil say he is an angel of light , ) nor what they plainly professe to doe : but what they be & do in deed ; though yet they professe so much , as any forehead might blush to say , the pope claims not the power proper to christ alone . and what if i would presse mr smythes words as much for the pope on the other hand , namely that he claimeth to be ministerial bishop under christ , & in that he dooth many actions propre to the church , it is but the misinterpretation of his ministerial office , not understanding how farr it extends , &c. and hereupon conclude , that properly the pope is not antichrist for challenging the churches ruling power propre to it self ; would not this plea be as good as mr smythes ? and thus the pope mought be freed from being antichrist properly at all ; or els mr. s. pleading is but litle worth . agayn , for papal bishops among the protestants , however they utter not such speeches of their power , ( being curbed through fear of the civil magistrate : ) yet their lordly jurisdiction , which they challenge and usurp over many parishes and provinces , togither with the names of blasphemie upō their foreheads as lords-spiritual , archbishops &c. do prove them toincroch upō christs kingly power , and usurp the same ; though neyther they , nor the pope , nor belial himself , wil say so much . next for the goverment by elders which i proved by scriptures ; mr smyth , neyther answering , nor once mentioning the scriptures quoted , seeketh to blind his reader with a * wee say , and a general disclayming of myne error , ( as he calleth it , ) without conviction . and let the reader observe his manner of disputing against me . at the first , he sayd to me , † this of you deney m. ains . ( which i think you doe not ) i say you are therein departed from the faith . behold how his own hart checked him , when he began his invective against me ; it told him , that i denyed not the truth . but he proceeds ; and after he had shewed his own faith , he comes vpon me with an other jf , and conceles his owne thought , saying , “ if you hold any other faith , it is not the faith of christ. after drawing to an end , he concludeth a gainst me thus * i doe therfore vtterly disclaim this your error mr. ains . as one part of antichristianisme in your church . first let us see what mine error is , and then how it is convinced . is it mine error to hold that christ hath ordeyned a presbyterie in everie church ? why the scriptures which i cited proue it to be truth ; and mine adversary hath nothing to say against it , but yeeldeth it himselfe in the last leaf of his book as before i shewed . or is it mine error to hold , that this presbyterie is to teach and rule the church by christs owne words & lawes ? this seemeth in deed to be the scandal , which mr. sm. stumbleth at , & would thus spurn away . the power ministerial of the elders ( sayth he ) is rather a leading power , then a ruling power : neyther ar the elders in al the new testament ( to my knowledg ) caled rulers archontes , but overseers leaders , elders , prohistamenoi : wherby the holy ghost would teach , that their power is not to rule but to lead and direct . i doe therfore vtterly disclaim this your error &c. i answer that mr. sm. dooth sophisticate & dally with the word rule , whiles he maketh it to answer onely to the greek word archein ; which signifieth to rule and reign as princes ; mark. 10. 42. rom. 15 12. wheras he knoweth or may know that other vvords also are fitly translated rule ; as poimainein , rev. 2. 7. and proistasthai , rom. 12 8. and he savv before his eyes , hovv i alleged for teaching and ruling 1. tim. 5. 17. vvhere this later vvord is used . which he not knovving , as it seemeth , hovv to translate better , and yet not vvilling to brook the vvord rule , sayth they are not caled rulers archontes , but prohistamenoi . he might as vvel have sayd , neyther ar they caled overseers but episcopoi , nor leaders , but hegoumenoi , nor elders but presbyteroi ; and so have bleared the simple readers eyes , vvith al greek vvords , to spoil christs ministers of their authoritie , and to make men beleeve they stand but for ciphers . if he be so ignorant of the greek tongue as he pretendeth , that he vvil neither allovv prohistamenoi to be translated rulers , ( vvhich so many greek authors vvil allovv , ) nor give us an other english vvord for it , i vvil leav him to his ignorance or frowardnes rather , and referr the reader to 1 tim. 3. 4. 5. 12. where this same greek word is applied to the ruling or governing of a howse , and of children , which the apostle after in 1. tim. 5. 17. and other places , applieth to the ruling of the church by elders . so that mr sm. may as well teach househoulders , they must not rule their howses or children : as that elders must not rule the church , because they be not called archontes princely-rulers , but prohistamenoi , rulers standing before or over them . again if this reason of mr s. be good it hath broke the neck of his popular government ; for it is this ; if elders be not called archontes ( princes or princely-rulers ; ) then are they not to rule the church of god. but elders are not called archontes . therefore &c. which i return upon himself thus , if the multitude of brethren be not called archontes ; then are they not to rule the church of god : but the multitude of brethren are not called archontes ; if they be , let m. s. shew where . yea i might add , that they are not called overseers , nor leaders , nor elders , nor prohistamenoi ; therfore neyther are they to rule the church ; and so it is to be without rule or government of man at all ; which if m. sm. doe hold , it wil be found that himself deneyes the faith . for however it be true , that onely christ himself ( who is the * archon or prince of the kings of the earth , ) is properly the archon or princely-ruler of the church , and imperiall power perteyns to him alone : yet he hath given ministerial power and authority to his servants , † poimainein & “ proistasthai , to feed , rule , govern , go before and direct his church : and who so refuseth them whom he hath sent and set , * refuseth him . wheras i further added of the elders set to teach and rule , that vnto them all the multitude , the members , the saincts , ought to obey and submit themselves , as the scriptures teach ; heb. 13. 17. 1. pet. 5. 5. this wholsom doctrine mr. sm. before misliked and kicked against , in answering mr. bern. & seeks to turne it away , with this peremptorie and perverse answer “ to the place heb. 13. 17. j say the apostle doth not intend to teach that the whol body of the church must yeeld to the voice of the elders , in every thing that they lyst . o notable cavil ! who sayth they must yeeld to every thing the elders lyst ? is this a fit answer to casshier the government of the elders ? then away also with his popular goverment : for i say , no scripture intendeth to teach that eyther minister or member , must yeeld to the voice of the multitude , in every thing they lyst . if so ; then aaron had been blamelesse for making the golden calf ; because it was the peoples lyst , and they importuned him thereto exod. 32. 1. 22. 23. but m. s. proceedeth , saying ; nor that the eldership hath in their hands the power of christ to rule contrarie to their liking . i answer , the elders are to teach and rule the church by christs own word and lawes , as i have “ expressed . and herein i presuppose that both the elders wil teach and rule according unto godlynes , & the people wil obey the godly doctrines & directions of their elders , without mislike or discontentment . for christs sheep wil hear his voice ; his kingdom is peaceable ; his subjects loyal and obedient . now whiles i speak of the ordinary power that the elders have to teach and rule the church , as christ hath constituted it in peace ; it is but from a contentious humour , to obiect , that they have not power to rule contrary to the peoples liking , as if there could be no rule , but when the elders and brethren are at warr one with another . of the church it is written , † the multitude of them that beleeved were of one hart and of one sowl ; yet none ( i think ) doubteth , but ther was rule & goverment amōg them . and of such quiet rule spake i , though m. sm. would disturb it with his exception ; which he mought also have alledged against the presbyteries authoritie to pray preach and administer the sacraments ; seing these ar no more to be done contrary to the peoples liking , then rule and goverment : for god hath caled us in peace . so for ought that is yet sayd ; the government by elders standeth fast . the last battry foloweth . but ( sayth m. s. ) the intent of the apostle is to show , that all the particular members in all their affaires , must submit themselves to the instruction and guidance of the elders . for although christ hath placed the elders as stewards over the servants yet he hath not appointed them as lords over his spowse & wife . your argument therfore ( sayth he ) is a fallacian a coniunctione & divisione thus ; al the particular members must obey the elders in their lawful instructions and their wholsome admonitions severally ; ergo the whole body must ioyntly obey the voyce of the elders . here m. sm. running himself into a fallacie , by dividing those that are joyned togither of the lord , would bear himself out in his evil , by blaming an other first , but without al equitie , as the judicious reader may easily perceiv . for his reason is to this effect , jf elders be stewards over the servants , and not lords over the wife ( the church ) : then is not the church to obey or submit unto them . where learned the man this logik ? is there no obedience or submission , thinks he , but unto lords ? then is there no obedience ecclesiastical , which the church may yeeld to any save unto christ , for he is the † onely lord. but this man is blinded with his erroneous conceipt . for as in civil goverment we are to obey and submit , not onely to the king as unto the superior , but * also to the governours that are sent of him : so in goverment ecclesiastical we are to obey and submit , not onely to the king christ , but to “ the elders his ministers sent of him : to the one we submit as to the lord and king : to the other as to servants and ministers , set over us by the lord. agayn , i would fayn know , whither mr. sm. thinketh the elders to be lords over the particular members ? if he say , yea , i abhor his pride , for it is injurious to christ the sole lord of al & every one in the church : if nay , then i detest his sophistrie ; for by the same reason that he disswadeth the whol flock from obedience , he mought also disswade each particular member : which yet he dooth not , but yeeldeth the contrary . now that the apostle intendeth not onely the particular mēbers , but the general flock also , is apparant ; first , by his reason which he annexeth , † for they watch for your soules as they that must give accounts . al good elders , i ween , do watch as well for the publik church , as for the private members , and shal give account for the whol . if then the apostles reason be of weight ; the vvhol flock , as vvel as the particular sheep , must obey and submit to such as vvatch over them . secondly the apostle sayth elsvvhere , to the elders of an other church , * take heed to al the flock , wherof the holy ghost hath made you overseers : poimainein , ( that is to feed , rule , govern , guid , direct and doe al other duties of good shepheards unto ) the church of god. novv these vvords flock & church , mean not particular members , but the general company under charge & guidance . and if the holy ghost have set elders and shepherds over the whole flock : can any man doubt , but they must teach rule and direct the whol ? & if they must doe this by authoritie from god : is not the whol flock bound to be taught ruled & directed by them in the lord ? what perverting of the scripture then is this , that when the apostle writing to a whol church , to obey and submit unto their guides : it should be restreyned unto particular members for to obey ? such doctrines fitt rather the confusion of babylon , then the holy order & goverment of sion . but it seemeth the stinch of this restreynt , went up into the nose of the man himself as he wrote it : for presently he seeketh to sweeten the yll savor with these flowers : that * al the saincts shal yeeld obedience to the elders in things commanded by god : and the elders shal al of them obey the voyce of the church in things commanded of god. he might also have added that both elders and people should obey the voyce of any particular person , in things commanded by god. for if the whol church doe syn , and “ any one make it known unto them , and shew them the law of god : they are bound to obey him , & submit to his good coūsel in the lord. but what is this to the purpose ? the question is into whose hands christ hath committed the ordinarie teaching guiding governing and ruling of his saincts here on earth . the scriptures * teach , and we accordingly have long since “ professed , that it is into the hands of the bishops or elders . this is that which i defend in my answer to m. bernard : for this , if for any thing , m. s. also inveigheth against me : being indeed against himself also herein . for besides the testimonies fore alleged out of his book , he hath further in the same book written thus , † christ is not their king , seing he onely ruleth by his own lawes and officers , and not by antichristian lords and lawes &c. and agayn , * you refuse christs testament and his kingdome , and will not have him to reign over you in his own offices and lawes , which is contrarie to these places , luk. 19. 27. apoc. 14. 9. 10. 11. loe here the truth which i defend , confirmed by my adversaries owne penn ; for this is the onely thing which i plead , that christ ruleth his people , onely by his own lawes and officers , as mine opposite himself granteth : & yet see , what an outcrie he maketh against me , as teaching such antichristianisme , as was never heard of before . but by his former dispute against the presbyterie , himselfe is found to be one of those enimies , that wil not have christ to reign over them , by his own offices and lawes . wheras he putteth † the question thus , how farr the sheep must obey the elders which ar shepheards : that is not the point between mr. bern. and me , neyther medle i with it : yet if any be desirous to know my mind in general , it is . so farr as the shepheards doe teach rule and direct the sheep in the wayes of christ , by his owne word and lawes ; so farr at they al jointly and every one severally , bound to obey and submit to their shephards , and no further . for although this be the ordinary way of teaching and governing the church ; yet if extraordinarily it fal out , that the shepheards walk and lead awry , and the sheep go aright ; then is neyther the whol flock , nor any one sheep to follow or obey them , unlesse they wil fall togither into the ditch . neyther wil that reason , which m. sm. so laboureth about , namely that the ministery is not by succession but by election of the church ; make ought against me : unlesse the man thinketh this consequence good , if elders be chosen by the church , then are they not to teach and rule the church by christs word and lawes . the contrary rather is true . for if the church be authorized and commanded of christ to chose and set elders over them , for to teach and rule them by his own word and lawes ; and are also commanded to obey and submit themselves unto their elders : then are the elders to teach & rule them by christs word and lawes , and the church is therin to obey . but the first is true , as the scriptures and reasons forealleged prove ; therefore alsothe latter . no more wil that similitude of a body , ( which as all parables will easily be perverted , being streyned beyond the purpose of the holy spirit ) help ought against the truth i defend . for as god * hath disposed the members every one of them in the body at his own pleasure , & given them severall faculties , so as all the members have † not one work ; and as the eye for seing , the ear for hearing , the mouth for speaking , &c. doo administer , not for particular mebers onely , but for the whol body : even so the church hath many members with “ diversities of gifts , and diversities of offices or ministeries ; which they † are to attend unto and execute for the whol body : & the whol , ( not the particular members onely , as this man fansieth ) are to obey and submit unto these distributions & administrations , being al of the lord , as the apostle teacheth . and as al the members of the body have not the gift of speaking , seeing , smelling &c. but these are bestowed on special members for the use of al : so in the church , al * are not prophets , or al teachers , or al governours &c. but “ to one is given the word of wisdome , to another the word of knowledge &c. unto the administration of which gifts , by the due offices or members ; al the body is to submit , and obey in the lord. so that a wonder it is any man should have the face to blame me with antichristianisme , for disclayming that position which m. bernard imputed unto us ; namely , that the power of christ , that is , avthoritie to preach , to administer the sacraments , and to execute the censures of the church , belongeth to the whole church , yea to overy one of them : or for affirming , some special authoritie to be committed to the elders for reaching and ruling the church by christs own word and lawes , unto whom the other brethren are to obey , alwayes in the lord. what would it be but a mere confusion and abuse of the holy ordinances of the gospel , if every one in the church should administer & perform the works of al christs ministers : which they may , if the power and authoritie perteyneth unto them : for who may abridge the saincts of these things ? and most strange it is , that m. s. ( if any thing may be strange in him , ) would thus inveigh against me : when in handling this very poynt against m. bern. he writeth thus * wherefore i say unto you , that the gifts of preaching , administration of the sacraments , and governing are given unto some men , but the offices and officers indued with these gifts are given unto the church &c. if but some men in the church , have the gifts of preaching , administration of sacraments & governing : wil m. s. blame me for deneying this position of m. bernard , that christs power and authoritie to preach , administer the sacraments &c. belongeth to every one in the church . have they authoritie to preach or govern , which have not the gifts of preaching or government ? i leave the judgment of this controversie , to every wise hart . and this i hope may suffice for clearing my self of antichristianisme , in that which i wrote about church goverment : being the mayn thing which m. sm. hath wrested against me . other things there are which he girdeth at breifly : and which i omit to strive with him about , whom i see to be set upon debate . and how adversarylike he dealeth with me , in mangling , corrupting and depraving my answers , for his advantage : they that compare them with his book may see . let this one be an instance . to an objected error against us , i thus answered : † neither is this position set down in our words , ( to my knowledge ) neither doth mr. bernard take away , but confirm rather the thing that we hold : for he granteth that they offend god , which may and doe not ordinardie ( having meanes offred ) live in a church rightly constituted : & we grant , that many of christs subiects for want of meanes , doe not live in a true constituted church . if therfore he were not a caviller , he would not have reckned this among our errors . this my answer m. s. of his liberalitie hath set down in * his book thus . m. ains . answering m. bern. pag. 173. vseth these words . neither is this position set down in our words , ( to my knowledge : ) if therfore m. bern. were not a caviller , he would not have reckned this among our errors . thus having dealt more injuriously with my words , then the unjust steward “ did with his masters reckning , in abating more then half of my writing , without so much as any note or mark to intimate of further matter in my answer , ( which he maketh almost senselesse ) : he procedeth to charge me with forsaking the defence of the truth and then runns on to justifie that he had written to mr. bernard which i knew not of . but for his injurious dealing with me , and persecuting this poor church ( which deserved better of him ) with his pen in publik , as the world now may see he hath don in high measure : i leave him unto god for mercy or judgment . whose hand as it is heavie upon him already , in giving him over from error to error , & now at last to the abomination of anabaptisme : so wil the same hand stil follow him unto furder judgement if he do not repent . but i vvish he may find grace in the eyes of the lord. finis . faults escaped ▪ pag. 12. line 2. for tunea read tuned . pag. 15. line 2. for alled , read called pag. 98. in . the last line , read wel ruling , and painful . other faults may easily by discerned and pardoned . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a13202-e330 * prov. 9. 13. † differen . preface . “ parall . p. 105. * rev. 13. 4 ▪ † charact. in the epist. * psal. 75. 5 “ iob. 41. 16. * 2 pet. 2. 18. † charact. epistle . “ prov. 28. 25. † psal. 5. 9. * princip . &c. differ . &c. charact of the beast . † mat. 7. 15. * psal. 107. 42. notes for div a13202-e730 * this is the third of his fower general arguments , which he offred to our church in writing , at the secōd dayes publik cōferēce ‡ in the reason annexed to his second general arg. differēce &c. pag. 12. ‡ in a reason annexed to the 1. general argument . † differēce &c. in the preface . * in the same preface . * prou. 5. 6 ▪ † gen. 17. * charact. of the beast in the epist. † pro. 20. 1. † pro. 4. 17. * ps. 144. 1 † psal. 18. ●2 . the homonymie cleared † latreuontes . ” latreuo . * sebesthai . ‡ sebomeno●● . ” sebontai . * iob. 1. 9. ion. 1. 9. † proskunesai . ” prosekunesan . ” prosekunesan . * deut. 5. 6 — 15. † differēc . pag. 18. mark 9. 49. with levit. 2. 11 13. & 9. 24 1 cor. 5. 6 ▪ 8. † act. 2. 4 & 11. 28. * differēc . pag. 1. † 1 cor. 14. 3. * 2 tim. 3. 16. 17. † elenchon . * act. 13. 10. † vers . 9. * act. 13. 40. 41. ” act. 28. 25. — 28. * pag. 1. † isa. 1. &c. jer. 2. &c. mat. 5. & 6. & 7. &c. act. 7 & 13. &c. ‡ differenc . p , 27. * deut. 17. 8. 9. 11. 12. † act. 3. 22 — 26. † mat. 5. &c. vnto mat. 26. * mat. 26. and 27. “ luk. 24. 51. † psal. 110. 1. with 1 cor. 15. 24. 25. * mat. 13. 19. † luk. 4. 43 * luk 8. 10 † act. 20. 25. & 28. 23. † deut 31. 9 “ joh. 20. 31 * nehem. 9 20. † nehem. 9. 3. 4. 5. &c ▪ 1 sam ▪ 10. 5. 6. * rom. 3. 1. 2. 3. & 9 , 4 , 5. & 11. 1 , 17. 18. &c. † charact. of the beast p. 16. * act. 26. 7. † sussoma ephe. 3. 6. * differēc . pag 19 * differ . pag , 20 , 21 † exod. 40. 6. 28. 29. * ver . 30. 32 “ exod. 29 42. 43. lev 1 , 3. & 8. 3. 4. † lev. 6. 16 26. * exo. 26. 15. 16. “ exo. 27. 1 † & 40. 19. * ver . 28. “ lev. 6. 12 13. † 2 chro. 1. 3. 5. 6. ” exod. 26. 1. 29. * exo. 25. 39. † exo. 40. 22 — 24. † exo. 4. 22 * ps. 135. 4 “ deut. 7. 6. 7. † deut. 33. 26. * vers .. 29. “ revel . 19. 11 — 21. † lev. 17. 2 4 — 7. * rev. 9 , 20 “ lev. 6. 16. † ps. 65. 4. * psal. 84. 2. 10. “ 2 chro. 29. 27 — 29 † luk. 1. 9. 10. &c. * num. 6. 23. lev. 9. 22. † pag. 21. * rev. 11. 1. “ ezek. 40. 3. 5. zach. 2. 1. 2. † ezek. 40. 47. & 48. 30. zach. 2 , 2. * rev. 21. 15. “ rev. 11. 2 † jer. 12. 7. * ier. 20. 4. “ isa. 63. 18 † rev. 11. 2 * neh●m . 11. 1. isa , 48 , 2. & 52 1 , mat. 4. 5. † psal : 51. 18. & 87. & 122. isa : 60 , revel : 21. “ psal. 79 1. * rev. 17 † rev. 21 “ psal. 79. 2. † rev. 11. 9 † deut. 3● . 10. * neh. 8. 7. 8. “ eze. 1. 3. ier. 1. 1. 2. † pag. 19. † 1 cor. 11. 10. * ver . 7. “ ver . 14. 15. † vers . 4. † exod. 28. 40. ezek. 44. 18. * vers . 4. 8. “ vers . 7. † vers . 9. * vers . 10. “ 1 cor. 14. 34. 1 tim. 2. 11. 12. † 2 sam. 15 30. * est. 6. 12 “ 1 cor. 11. 4. † plutar. in vita demosthenis . * exo. 28. 40. zach. 3. 5. † 1 cor. 13. 13. * 1 cor , 14 “ v. 24 , 25. † ver . 30. ” mat. 8 , 2. * luk. 5 , 12. “ neh. 8. 5 , 6 , & 9 , 3 † rev. 19 , 10. * 1 cor. 14 3. “ 1 cor. 14 3. † rom. 1 , 9. * differ . p. ● . † pag. 23. * charact. of the beast pag. 26. † col. 2. 11. 12. † deut. 33. 10. * act. 15. 21. † luk. 4. 16 17 — 21. “ isa. 59. 21 † mic. 2. 11 1 king. 22. 24. † pag. 19. * pag. 17. † pag. 20. * psal. 1. & 49. & 78. & 91. &c. * 1 tim. 6. 4. 5. † differen . pag. 4. * num. 10 2. † exod. 28. 33-35 . † iob. 4. 16 “ ps. 1●5 . 5 * 2 tim. 3. 16. † rom. 4. 3. & 9. 17. “ joh. 5. 39 * rev. 2. 7. 11. 17. 29. * prov. 12 19. † col. 2. 17 “ exod. 25 † pag. 22. † iude. 13. * see before pag. 2. “ jer. 9. 3. † differēce . pag. 5. * as that mentioned heb. 9. 19. † deut. 31. 26. ¶ vers . 27. “ ioh. 12. 48. * deut. 30. 14. † psal. 19. 7 8. “ 2 pet. 1. 19. ¶ ioh. 20. 31. * 1 ioh. 1. 4 † deut , 19. 19. psal. 1. 2. pro. 1. 1 2. * pro. 22. 20 , 21. “ deut. 31. 10 — 13. ⸪ act. 13 15. & 15. 21. † luk. 4. 16. 17. * 2 tim. 3. 15. 16. 2 pet. 1. 19 “ 1 cor. 4. 6. ⸫ jsa . 34. 16. † joh. 5 , 39 , * psal. 40. 8 , 9. * psal. 37. 30. 31. “ deu. 6. 6 † 1 tim. 4. 13. 2 tim. 3 , 15 — 17. & 4. 13. ⸫ 2 ioh. 11 3 joh. 13. with 1 ioh. 1 , 3 , 4. & 2 12. &c. † col. 2. 8. * gal. 4 , 3. 9. “ col. 2. 11. gal. 5 , 2 , 3. † col. 2. 16. gal. 4. 10. * heb. 10. 4. “ psal. 40. 6. 7. † gal. 3 , 24 * col. 2. 15. † deut. 30. 6. 11 — 14. with rom. 10. 4. 5 — 8. * rō . 3. 21. “ ioh , 5 , 39 † 2 pet. 1. 19 “ ier. 17. 9. † ps. 19. 7. 8. 9. * 2 pet. 1. 21. † gen , 3 , 1. † differen . pag. 6. * pag. 5. &c. † differen . pag. 6. 1. reason . answer . † differ●n . pag. 7. * joh. 13. 12. 13. &c. † luk 4. 16 “ sanders rock pref. * ibidē ch . 9. 2 reason . answer . † exod. 20. 18. 19. * ex. 24. 7. † exod. 34. 30. 31. &c. “ heb. 12. 19. 20. * 2 cor. 3. 7 ¶ ioh. 5. 39 † vers . 9. * 2 tim. 3. 15. “ 2 tim. 3. 15. † rom. 7 , 8. * eze. 36. 26 , 27. heb. 8. 10. “ ps. 52. 4. 3. reason . 4. reason . answer . † rom. 9 , 16 * diff. p. 7. “ pag. 6. “ ioh. 21. 25. † 2 tim. 3. 16. 17. * 1 tim. 6. 11. “ deut. 33 10. † neh. 8. 8. act. 15. 21 2 chron. 17 9. 5. reason . answer . * 2 pet. 1. 19. 6. reason . answer . 7. reason . * psal. 10. 17. answ. † 1 king. 8. 38. 39. “ num. 11 25. 26. 1 sam. 10. 5. 6. * 1 cor. 14. act. 19. 6 8. reason . answer . * rev. 2. 1. 7. 9. reason . answer . † deut. 4. 12. “ exod. 24. 3. 4. * mark. 3. 17. † rev. 1. 19. & 2. 1. * rev. 1. 3. † deut. 27. 18. 10. reason . answ. * pag. 12. ¶ pag. 33. * pro. 22. 14. 1. obiectiō . answ. replie . † mat. 22. 31. 32. “ levit. 23. 34. 36. * nehe. 8. 14. — 18. “ act. 13. & 15. ¶ deut. 33 10. * pag. 19. † pag. 20. “ pag. 6. * eph. 4. 14 2. obiect . answer . reply . † nehē . 8. 13 — 18. * col. 4. 16. “ rev. 1. 3. † diff. p. 20. * psa. 73. 9. pag. 1. † pag. 6. * cyril . con . julian . lib. 2. & 3. &c “ eph. 2. 12 answer . † col , 4 , 16. replie . * 1 thes. 5. 27. “ 2 thes. 2 15. † pro , 30. 5 ▪ 6. * rev. 22. 18. 19. “ dan. 5. 25 — 28. † psa , 12. 6 answer . rep. † rom. 15. 4. & 4. 23. 24. 3. obiect . answer . rep. “ 1 tim. 1. 3. † 1 tim. 3. 14. 15. * 1 tim. 4. 13. 4. obiect . † luk. 4 , 16 * neh. 8. 13 , 14. “ 2 tim. 4. 13. † ps. 9. 16. † diff. p. 10. † mat. 1. 23. * isa. 7. 14. * act. 2. 4. † rev. 1. 8. * 2 pet. 1. 21. † 2 tim. 3. 16. “ eccles. 12. 10. psal. 19. & 119. prov. 8. * iohn . 20. 30. 31. & 21. 25. † 2 pet. 3. 16. * eph. 4. 11 12. 13. 14 1 cor. 12. † 2 pet. 1. 19. ephe. 2 20. “ 2 tim. 3. 15. * 1. king. 6 23. † 1. king. 7. 25. * 1 king. 12 28. * 1 cor. 12. & 14. † 2 cor. 2. 17. † differene pag. 10. the 1. reason . answer . * charact. of the b. pag. 16. * pag. 32. * 1 king. 8. 41. 43. the 2. reason . ansvver . † prov. 26. 27. the 3. reason . answer . † rō . 15. 4. 2 pet. 1. 19 4. reason . answer . * pag. 17. “ heb. 9. 19 5. reason . answer . 6. reason . answer . 7. reason . answer . † pag. 14. † orat. pro archia . * omnia graece . iuvenal . sat. 6 “ diff. pag. 11. † pag. 12. * pag. 10. “ pro. 14. 1. † dif . p. 17. * joh. 5. 39 † gal. 6. 16. * tob. 12 : 15. “ tob. 5. 12 † tob. 6. 16 , 17. 1. argument . answer . “ 1. king. 14. 4 † pag. 17. the 2. argument answer * rom. 10. ●● † rom. 14. ▪ 23. heb. 1● * tit. 1. 14 “ mar. 7. 8. 9 — 11. † dif . p. 14. * dif . p. 5. “ eze , 13. 2 † diff. p. 4. † pag. 22. * pag. 5. “ pag. 6. † pag. 18. * hos. 5. 1. argument . 3. answer . * job . 28. 16. † dan. 10. 5. argument . 4. “ pag. 1. answer . ¶ iob. 15. 35. † pag. 17. argument 5. † ezek. 13. 18. answer . * gē . 22. 13 “ diff. p. 6. † pro. 11. 26 argum. 6 † pro. 8. 9. answer . * 1 thes. 5. 27. “ rō . 15. 4. † 2 pet. 3. 16. * 1 chro. 21 24. “ deut. 31. 9 — 13. argum. 7. * psa. 109. 28. answer . “ rev. 1. 3. † 2 pet. 2. 14 * diff. p , 17 * kara . isa. 29. 12. and 61 , 1 , 2. zac 7 , 7. “ jsa . 5 , 20. † 2 pet. 2. 3 argum. 8. answer . * exo. 10. 21. “ arg. set before the apocryphal books , in many english bibles . arg. 9. answer . * luk. 4. 16-21 . “ act. 15. 21. † col. 4. 16. 1 thes. 5. 27. * rev. 2. 1. 6 , 7. 13. * exod. 20 † ecc. 12. 10 * est. 1. 20 22. “ joh. 20 , 31 1 cor. 14. 37. * 1 cor. 12. “ 2 pet. 1. 20. † 1 cor. 14. 26 — 28. mar. 15. 35. * epelue . “ heb. pathar gr. epelusen . † joh. 21. 34 arg. 10. answer . † coar . of the b. in the epistle . * 2 tim. 3. 13. “ psa. 8. 2. “ diff. pag. 13. 1. objection m. sm. answer replie . answer . repl. * deut. 24 1 &c. & 21 15. &c. † mat. 19. 8. answer replie . † mat. 19. 8 * 2 sam. 12 8. if by the original m. s. mean lukes own writing : he iniurieth him otherweise , as if he approved an error which only he bare with by direction of gods spirit : & which if m. s. blame in him , let him self beware of blasphemie . † beza annot . in luk ● . 23. † job . 39. 37 answer . replie . * rom. 4. 3. heb. 3. 7 the 2 ▪ obiection m. s. ans. replie . † de antiq . iud. lib , 12. cap. 1. * prologue of iesus son of syrach : or ecclesiasticus . † ioh. 8. 39. * gen , 17. “ gen. 14. 13. † act. 22. 3 * hellenes . “ vers . 19. † ve . 24. 26 * act. 15. 1. † act. 15. 23. “ ios. scaliger . de emēd . temp . lib. 5. de pr. anno . chal. et lib 2. de ci●l . iudae . karraim . † act. 18. 4. & 13. 42. 44. & 14. 1. & answ. repl. * philo de legat . ad caium . answ. repl. † neh. 13. 24 * dan. 1. ● . &c. “ mark. 15 † mark. 7. 34. & 5. 41. answer . repl. † act. 13. 15. & 15. 21. * act. 15. 24. &c. col 2 , 16. 17. 3. obiectiō . answer . “ pr. 24. 26 replie . † exod. 20. * act. 15. 21. “ luk. 4. 16. * isai. 44. 20. answer . replie . † isa. 44. 1● † rev. 3. 1 ▪ 6. * mar. 12. 26 , compared with mat. 22. 31 “ hab. 2. 18 4 obiection 5. obiect . “ luk. 4. 17. &c. m. sm. answer . * luk. 4. 16 replie . “ ver . 22. † mat. 26. 25. joh. 18. 20. * dif . p. 6. “ luk. 2. 49 46. 47. † rom. 1. 9. answer . replie . † dif . p. 15. * 1 cor. 12. 3. answer . replie . † luk. 4. * neh. 8. 8 “ act. 13. 15. & 15. 21. * phonas . answer . repl. * differ . pag. 18. † act. 13. 47. * act. 1. 20 “ act. 13. 33. † prolog . 〈◊〉 psal. expla . † act. 17. 2 * vers . 11. * pro. 30. 18. 19. † principles &c. * 2 pet. 2. 1 “ dif . p. 22. † dif . p. 23. 1. reason . answer . * pag. 28. “ 1 chr. 23 30. † neh. 8. 7. 9. 2 reason . * num. 11 25. answer . † rev. 4. 6. 8. * vers . 9. 10 “ rev. 5. 8. 9. 10. 3. reason . answer . * num. 18 † 1 tim. 5. 17. 4. reason . answer . 5. reason . † psal. 58. 7 answer . † vers . 28. * ioh. 21. 16. * ioh. 10. † joh. 21. 6. reason . answer . 7. reason . answer . * 1 cor. 16. 10. † 1 cor. 12. 4. 8. * rom. 12. 7. 8. * jsa . 57. 12 ▪ “ 1 cor. 12. 4. 5. 6. † rom. 12. 6 ▪ 7. 8. “ 1 cor. 12. 28. * 1 tim. 5. 17 * pag. 24. † 2 cor. 2. 16. * ex. 18. 16 &c. “ exo. 28. 1 † num. 11. 14. 16. * ex. 18. 25 “ num. 18. 2. 6 , † 1 chr. 23. & 25. & 26. chap , * 1 cor. 12. 6. “ ver . 4. † v. 8. 9. 10. * ver . 5. “ rom. 12. 7 8. 1 cor. 12. 28. 29. * 1 tim. 5. 17. * 2 tim. 5. 3 “ ver . 17. * ver . 20. “ tit , 1. 11. † 2 tim. 3. 5. 6. * rō . 16. 18 “ mat , 23 , 18. * ioh. s. 29. “ 1 cor. 7. 30. † 1 tim. 4. 10. * psa. 36. 6. “ tit. 1. 10. † rom. 16. 6. 12. * 1 cor. 15. 10. † synechdoche . * luk. 1. 9. nū . 16. 40 † nū . 6. 23 “ deut. 31. ● . † 1 tim. 3. 4. * 1 tim. 5. 17. “ rom. 12. 8. † philip. 1. 1 act , 20. * ioh. 1. 5. “ mat. 13. 15. * 1 cor. 12. 4. † vers . 8. “ vers . 5. ¶ 1 cor. 8. 6 * rom. 12. 7 ▪ 8. † 1 cor. 8. 6 “ 1 cor. 12. 6. ¶ act. 3. 22. * heb. 9. 11 † rev. 19. 16. “ rō . 12. 1. 2. † 1 cor. 15. 25. † eph. 4. 11 “ 1 cor. 12. 8. rom. 12 7. ¶ eph. 4. 11 * 1 cor. 12. 8. rom. 12 8. † 1 cor. 12. 28. “ rom. 12. 8 1 tim. 5. 17 * 1 cor. 12. 28. † 1 tim. 5. 17. * rom. 12. 7. 8. * charact. of the beast . in the epist. “ gen. 1. 1. † num. 13. 29. † 1 cor. 12. 4. * vers . 6. “ vers . 5. * vers . 7. † vers . 12. &c. “ vers . 27. 28. * prov. 1. 23. † vers . 30. “ iob. 40. 10. 18. † num , 16. 1. 3. 10. * act. 6. 2 3 , 4. “ 2 cor. 2. 16. † deut. 28. 28. 29. * ver . 3. “ ver . 4. † ver . 5. * ver . 6. † ver , 7. * ver . 8. “ pro. 22. ● * rō . 12. 6. “ 1 cor. 14. 1. 31 , † vers . 26. * 1 cor. 12. 5. “ act. 6. 3. 4. † col. 4. 17. † 1 cor. 14. 3 * 1 tim. 5. 17. “ rō , 12. 6. † 2 tim. 4. 2 * act. 20. 20. “ 1 tim. 4. 15 , 16. † 1 cor. 14. 30. * rom. 12. 7 answer . replie . † parallel . pag. 93. * titus 3. 11. * act. 20. 17. † rev. 2. 1. * act. 20. 28. “ rom. 12. * 1 cor. 12. † joh. 10. “ ioh. 21. 16 * 1 pet. 5. 2 “ psal. 78. 70. 71. 72. 1 chron. 11. 2. * ephe. 2. 20. † rev. 1. 20 “ reu. 12. 4 * rev. 9. 1. † rev. 7. 1. song . 4. 16. * r. d. kimchi , commēt . in mal. 2. 7. & hag. 1. 13. ¶ 1 cor. 12. 8. “ rō . 12. 8. † colos. 4. 17 * act. 14. 23. ‘“ jrenaeus l. 3. c. 3. euseb . l. 4. c. 15. * rev. 2. 8. † rev. 1. 1. * char. of the b. epis. “ ps. 144. 11. † dif . after the preface . * pag. 28 “ pag. 30. † psa. 24. 1. * 1 cor. 10. 26. 27. “ tit. 1. 15. † 1 cor. 8. & 10 , 25. &c. * 2 chr. 2. 3. 8. “ ezr. 6. 8. &c. † heb. 13. 16. * mat. 6. 4. “ gal 6. 10 * mat. 25. 41 — 45. † 1 cor. 10 26. * pag ▪ 30. “ 1 cor , 11 16. notes for div a13202-e27860 “ printed 1609. † psal. 83. 13. “ parall . pag , 15. * pag. 3. † rev. 8. 10. 11 ▪ “ parall . p. 14. & 23. † char. pag. 48. * deut. 32. 33. “ parall . p. 30. * parall . p. 30. * parall . p 30. † levit. 12. 2. 5. & 15. 19. &c. * eccles. 10. 1. * i sayd ; ar antichrists , not for taking . &c. * 1 tim. 4. 14. † tit. 1. 5. 1 cor. 12. 28. act. 14. 23. “ 1 tim. 5. 17. * pag. 68. m. s. argument . † pag. 55. * pag. 67. † mat. 22. 37 — 39. 1 sam. 2. 25 * ier. 7. 22. “ 1 cor. 1. 17 † num. 15. lev. 1. &c. * 1 cor. 1. 16 “ 1 joh. 2. 22. 2 joh. 7. † gen. 39. 9 * 1 cor. 8. 12 “ pag. 68. † ioh. 10. * psa. 8. “ psa. 82. * paral. pa. 68. † pag. 41. * pag. 68. * pag. 69. † pag. 67. “ pag. 68. * pag. 69. * rev. 1. 5. † act. 20. 28. “ 1 thes. 5. 22. * ioh. 13. 20. luk. 10. 16 “ parall . p. 65. “ counter . p , 176. † act. 4. 32. † 1 cor. 8. 6. mat. 23. 8. 10. * 1 pet. 2. 13. 14. “ 1 pet. 5. 5 heb. 13. 17 † heb. 13. 17. * act. 20. 28. * pag. 66. “ lev. 4. 13 &c. * act. 20. 28. 1 tim. 5. 17. 1 thes 5. 12. 1 cor. 16. 16. heb 13. 17. “ confess : art . 17. & 19. † paral . p. 86 * pag. 107. † pag. 66. * 1 cor. 12. 18. † rom. 12. 4. “ 1 cor. 12. 4. 5. 6. † rom. 12. 6 7. 8. * vers . 29. “ ver . 8. * para● ▪ p. 61. † c●●n . p. ●73 . * parall . p. 16. “ luk. 16. 6. 7. a triall of our church-forsakers. or a meditation tending to still the passions of unquiet brownists, upon heb.10.25 wherein is iustified, against them, that the blessed church of england 1 is a true church. 2 hath a true ministry. 3 hath a true worship. by robert abbot ... abbot, robert, 1588?-1662? 1639 approx. 450 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 143 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a19569 stc 60 estc s100380 99836222 99836222 480 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a19569) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 480) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 947:03) a triall of our church-forsakers. or a meditation tending to still the passions of unquiet brownists, upon heb.10.25 wherein is iustified, against them, that the blessed church of england 1 is a true church. 2 hath a true ministry. 3 hath a true worship. by robert abbot ... abbot, robert, 1588?-1662? [32], 223, 222-249, [5] p. printed by thomas payne for philemon stephens and christopher meredith, and are to be sould at their shoppe at the signe of the golden lyon in saint pauls church-yard, london : 1639. with a final imprimatur leaf. the first leaf and last leaf are blank. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one 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ali jakobson sampled and proofread 2007-06 ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a triall of ovr chvrch-forsakers . or a meditation tending to still the passions of unquiet brownists , upon heb. 10.25 . wherein is iustified , against them , that the blessed church of england 1 is a true church . 2 hath a true ministry . 3 hath a true worship . by robert abbot , vicar of cranbrooke in kent . mat. 11.19 . wisedome is justified of her children . hosea 2.1 . say to your brethren ammi ; and to your sisters , ruhamah . london , printed by thomas payne for philemon stephens and christopher meredith , and are to be sould at their shoppe at the signe of the golden lyon in saint pauls church-yard . 1639. reverendo in christo patri ac domino , domino gualtero episcopo wintoniensi , serenissimae majestati ab eleemosynis , aureae periscelidis praesuli clarissimo , domino suo intimè observando , robertus abbott librum hunc , quo celebritas anglicanae ecclesiae , ministerij , & cultus , asseritur , & qui ecclesiae matri , ut pacifici amoris pignus dicatur , ad perpetuam observantiae justae memoriam , ut magno in eadem ecclesia patri , ejusdemque causae patrono , humiliter dat , & consecrat . to my deare mother the mvch honored , holy , and blessed chvrch of england . deare and blessed mother ) thou hast been long pestered with undutifull , yea unnaturall sons . sometimes they have beene superstitious , sometimes prophane , and for some yeares , some that have professed themselves best to god , have beene undutifull to thee . it is an ill signe , if children acknowledge a father , and deny a mother , that all hath not beene well doest thou live in perpetuall adulteries and rebellions that thy children renounce thee ? surely thy love is to thy husband alone . though when thy husband knowes of it , and hee doth not mislike it , nay , gives thee generall allowance , thou takest some ornaments and iewels from blessed and good men ▪ yet is thy heart to christ continually , yea and all thy carriages are according to his will. many of thy worthy sonnes have vindicated this truth both against rhemes , and amsterdame . they could not indure that their mother should be called whore , much lesse prooved so . amongst the rest , i thy unworthy sonne have appeared in thy cause , renouncing all the bloud in my heart that riseth against christ , and thee his spouse . if i appeare of too mild a temper , thou hast not begotten me of murthering mettle , but of that word which makes us turne speares , and swords into mattocks and sythes . how soever i look , i am sure i am thy child . and if i have done thee any honour in this poore service , i am glad : if not , yet i have done the best that i thought fit for these opposers ; and so with my humble prayers for the flourishing , and increase of thy peace and truth , i kisse thy hand , and rest thy obedient sonne to his utmost power , robert abbot . to the covrteovs and christian readers , especially to his owne parishioners , grace , and truth , and peace , with the churches of god in christ . dearely beloved ) i have lived now by gods gratious dispensation , above fifty yeares ; and in the place of my allotment two and twenty full . how unprofitably so ever in the dayes of my vanity , when the world , the flesh , and the devill , bore sway ; yet , through undeserved grace , painefully , ever since the weight of a peoples care was noticed to my conscience . i have had great labours , some watchings , many strifes , and contentions , with my selfe , and others , about truth , and godlinesse . and though i have earnestly contended that the mouth of the oxe might not be muzled , that treadeth out the corne , but that j , and others of gods labourers , ●ight live honorable of the gospell , and at the altar , at which we serve , as christ hath ordained : yet ( with a good conscience ) i can say as the apostle , i have coveted no mans gold , or silver , or apparrell : i have loved , and desired to spend , and to be spent , though the more i love , the lesse i am loved of some few i know that j must lay downe this tabernacle , and the time of my dissolution is not farre off . therefore doe i more seriously beginne to thinke of my state : and doe set upon it to examine how i am like to be presented before the tribunall seate of god. whē i thinke of my sinnes , and manifold infirmities i feare & quake , through the sight of the maiesty purity and iustice of god : but when i think of christ the mediator of the new testament , and of the infinite value of his bloud offered in the dearenesse of gods love , and applyed & rested on by faith , which the holy ghost in a saving measure hath given me ; i approach with confidence and the lifting up of my head . but , till that time come i lie under the expectation of flouds of sorrowes , streames of temptations , and other humane infirmities . i pray that j may doe nothing that may dishonour christ my master , and that i may suffer nothing that may drive me from him and his service . j know that the wasters of grace are strong , and many , and that no goodnesse is entayled to us without great care and vigilancy . i know that sinnes and afflictions are the two great enemies of perseverance . and though sinne be the most powerfull , which yet ( through grace ) i have learned to trample upon with the constant acts of piety and charity , according to my measure , yet afflictions are my next care , which if they bee slighted , will make secret inrodes to hind●r peace with god my afflictions have not beene so weighty as millions of gods deare saints have felt . in this gods grace hath beene marvellous , because hee knowes my weakenesse to beare , and my unworthinesse to bee a souldier in that warfare : yet have they not beene so little , as that they have not made me work enough . it is grievous to bee slighted of them whom a man dearely loves and to have contempt powred upon that which comes in fulnesse of strength , and tendernesse of affection to doe good . jt is hard not once scarce to be thanked , for constant travels to edifie and save soules . it is something to see respects fly abroad in full measure to strangers , when nearer relations are forgotten . but to bee persecuted by the tongues of those a man deserves well of , and to be privily smitten of those from whom best incouragements are due , will wound the heart of a david though he be after gods owne heart . j have of long suffered words of diminution and disparagement . they have beene my meate , drinke , and cloathing . though when i have beene downe the wind of weakenes , feeblenesse of spirit ha●● given advantage for a deepe impression , yet ( blessed be god ) as strength hath appeared i have kicked at them with chearefulnesse , though pride and folly hath sometimes misinterpreted this also . i have often looked into the cause . lord , what have i done ? have i not lived like thy servant , though with much sensible weakenesse ? have i not laboured in thy vineyard with all my strength ? have j not taught thy truth by taking heede to reading and doctrine ? yes surely , saith my conscience i have kept back none of thy counsell , i have not strengthened the hands of wickednesse . i have loved the godly , as such , though i have hated their indiscretions , as well as my owne . j have been kinde and courteous to those that have ill rewarded me . onely , this is the truth , j have loved the church of god amongst us , and the whole governement ecclesiasticall , and temporall if any thing have appeared harsh , i have excused it a● i was bound . i have not indured to heare publike scandalls to bee layed upon them . i have opposed gainesayers with earnestnesse of spirit , others will say , like a man , but j will say , and j am sure , like a minister . this hath fallen upon darke melancholick , high lookt , and sowre natures , and so hath suffered a disgust . some have beene sowred , but sweetned againe with the trade of the good word of god , and the practise of affability . some have beene estranged till this contracted folly hath beene digested . some have complayned of chiding , when my nature can chide nothing but sinne and disorder : and some have hardned themselves in error , and schisme . to crosse me ( i feare ) and my tenets for the church , they have revenged upon themselves . what these few will gaine in the issue i doe not know . this ( i doubt ) that they will repent , if greatnesse of stomack will let them looke backe againe , when it is too late . but for you ( my good people ) in whose hearts god hath writ mee by the preaching of christ , and his truth , ye have not so runne in vaine . ye will not be deluded with their pretences and sweet words . yee have heard formerly from me all these grounds , and oppositions of brownisme , which here j present unto you : and here have j thus addressed them for you , that they may keepe you from that snare of simple ones , and that they may ever lie by you , when j am dead , and with my christ , to keepe you upright in the waies of our blessed church . i know that some of you beare a deare and tender affection to these few seduced ones , though now they will not heare you . ye have lived in the same church together like friends : ye have delighted in the same word of god , prayer , and sacraments : yee have sweetly comforted one another in the private communion of saints : and ye see that still they seeme to live unblameable lives towards men , and that they pretend to delight still in the word of christ , which is the onely rule of salvation . these things will give great advantage to them to worke upon you , and to you to keepe intimate familiarity with them . but ( in the feare of god i beseech you ) take heede : weigh well what in this discourse j say , and god give you understanding in all things . jt is no small charge to unchurch a church , to unminister a ministery , and to unworship a worship . they must be sure of their hands , that they can , and will answer it to christ with confidence when they have done it . to doe it with a trembling heart , is to doe it against conscience . to doe it with full assurance of understanding , is to doe it with sure warrants , and precepts of christ . if they have such against our church , i am sure we shall finde them : if not let them goe , if they will , but follow not them in the breach . to keepe you out of it , i have done as j doe : and to gaine them too , if they will not bee resolved without grounds . j am sure they shall have no iust cause to except against my dealing with them . they may except against me , as an english priest , and bishops creature , as i heare , but shall never against my course with them . i have dealt with them with matter more then with words : and because they pretend to two things , to the scriptures , and to conscience , and i know a third thing in them , weakenesse . therefore have j dealt with them accordingly . j have compared scripture with scripture , to finde out the truth , but cannot finde theirs . i have dealt conscionably with them in fighting with that onely weapon against them , of their owne choosing , the word of christ . and because they are weake , i have not shewed my selfe a man in giving them any bitter language , or exasperating termes . as the barking of one dogge begets the barking of another , though it bee against the moone : so is it with high words , and therefore it were glorious , and above a man , if it were layed downe on all sides , and partakings . but as the waves of the sea , when they meete not with a rocke , but with the sands , they returne backe-againe with a watery flash : so have j done by them , that all our matters may be done in love . indeede i have taken their affected name out of their mouthes , separatists ; and given their right one unto them , brownists ; and this j have done out of conscience . i finde by experience that the word , separation , doth winne to their cause : for , when people of strong affections , and weaker iudgements , doe reade of the necessity of separation in the scriptures ; and can not discerne how we have made separation from heathenisme , and when we have beene thrust out of rome ( because wee were unwilling to bee so bad as shee ) have maintayned our just standing from her in a divided way ; they have beene willing to hearken to a separating plott . therefore browne being the leader amongst us , to this breach , ( if now time hath not made it worse then he intended it ) j can not nickname , but inconscience call the childe after the fathers name . jt was christs course , ye are of your father the devill , his children ye are , and so must i. jt is true also , that afterwards , yee may finde some opinions gone against , that are held by some that keepe communion with our church , as of a true church . but i am sure they are the brownists opinions also , to whom i speake . all that i can say therefore for that , is this . jt may bee , that some of you know , or have heard of that noble moralizers fable of amphiolus , who when hee was in all his military accoutraments to give combate ( as hee thought ) to argalus a knight of the sunne . this mans wife dressed her selfe in her husbands armour , and gave her husbands enemy meeting . amphiolus encounters valiantly , gave a wound in the necke , closeth , overthrowes , and gives a mortall wound in the body . but when hee opened the armour , viewes his conquest , and saw it was faire parthenia , argalus his wife , he could have no comfort of the day , it became not a man so to ruine a woman . such is my case heere . j say as a father of old , i dare not write against a bishop of my communion ; the love of brotherly peace is glorious in the church , even among men that otherwise differ in opinion . but if they put on the armes of an enemy , ( because they will bee so ) with whom i fight for truth , i cannot helpe it , if they meete with a blow , though i glory not in it , yea am sorry that there should be any such cause . i have now done , and commend you all to the word of gods grace which is able to save your soules , though no bownist , nor anabaptist had ever beene hatched . live in peace , and the god of peace shall bee with you . give not way to any opinion whereby the unity of spirit , and the bond of love may be broken . play the men , be strong and of a good courage . have prepared hearts to dye for christs cause : but , to bee sticklers in such poore quarrels , as can neither bring peace to the church , nor comfort to you at last , abhorre . wee must all appeare before the iudgement seate of god , where colours shall doe us no good , because we shall be iudged naked : where pretences shall doe us no good , because the bookes shall bee opened : and where no authors or favourers of sects , or schismes shall shelter us , because we must stand before the man christ iesus : to whom i ever leave you , and in whose name ye shall have the prayers of yours to be used in the service of the gospel robert abbot . the contents of this meditation is thus summed up . in section 1. the state of christians and their care to keepe it . section 2. the way to keepe a christian state is publick communion in assemblies . section 3. the vice of those that forsake publick communion : and first of the prophane . section 4. the forsakers of our assemblies that would be accounted holy ; and first of their name of iustice , brownists , which is due to them . section 5. of that name they would have , separatists , and how unjustly it is expected and assumed by them . section 6. of the brownists opinions upon which they forsake our church : and first whether we be a true church . section 7. of their first exception against us , about the nature of a visible church . section 8. of their second exception against us , about our enterance into a true church , where of their covenant . section 9. a question by the way ( because some of them question it ) about baptizing of bastards of impenitent christians . section 10. of their third exception against us , about the head of our church , christ , and the king under him . section 11. of their fourth exception against us about the members of our church ; where is debated of wicked professors comming to the lords table . section 12. of their last exception against our church about the government of it : and first of the power of governement , whether in the whole assembly . section 13. of their exceptions against the persons governing , bishops , and the exercise of their goverment , in ordination , excommunication , imposing oathes . section 14. of their second opinion upon which they separate from us : because wee have not a true ministery , where of ordeyners , titles , callings , infirmities , and maintenance . section 15. of their last opinion upon which they separate from us ; because wee have not a true worship : where of ceremonies of order , and significant , and of stinted prayers . section 16. of their maine exception in their former argument , to witt , our common prayer booke : where of the order of divine service , and their exceptions against kneeling , crosse , and responses or answers in baptisme . section 17. of the use that is to bee made of all good assemblies : to learne consideration , and exhortation , because the day is approaching , which is applied to our foasakers . a postscript . good reader , there are two texts of scripture whereupon the brownists do build their frame , besides many other in particular questions . these thou shalt finde cleared ( as i judge in conscience ) in most sections , as thou goest along . these are 1 cor. 6.17 . whereupon they ground their separation ; and mat. 18.15 , 16 , 17 , 18. 1 cor. 5. whereupon they ground the new parish discipline . thou shalt finde these cleared section 5. and 12. but before thou readest , i would intreate thee to correct the errours of the presse , printed at the latter end of the booke : and then learne with me , or learne me . a triall of ovr chvrch forsakers or a meditation to still the passions of unquiet brownists , upon heb. 10.25 . not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is , but exhorting one another : and so much the more as yee see the day approaching . section i. the estate of christians and their care to keepe it , the better our estate is , the more wee must labour to keepe it . a poore man takes no great thought for iron bolts and barres : a wooden latch , a pin serves his turne , and yet hee sleepes securely . a rich man , whose treasure is great , and whose heart is nailed to it , hath lockes , bolts , and barres of strongest assurance . thus must it be with a christian he is not now in a beggerly estate he is crowned with loving kindnesses and tender mercies unspeakable . he hath liberty to enter into heaven : hee hath a way made to leade him thither : and he hath an able guide for his conduct . the holiest is set before him . his liberty to enter is purchased by the bloud of iesus . his way thither is christs flesh , consecrated by the fulnesse of the god-head dwelling in him bodily . his guide is the high-priest over the house of god , christ the lord , christ alone purchased this liberty he alone is this way , by the marriage of our flesh : hee alone is this guide who hath authority over the house of god , and cannot bee defeated . his liberty is of the surest tenure , by purchase with the bloud of the sonne of god. his way is of the firmest sooting , surest foundation , and best making , by christ himself . and his guide is truth it selfe , one that cannot deceive , even our iesus christ who is all and in all . what therefore should hee now doe ▪ let them get an estate in meanes offered which may present to god this coate o● armes . a field of heavenly truth , and sincerity ( the royallest in gods eies ) , charged with a cleane washed body , opened , for all the world to looke upon . in the midst , an heart sprinckled from an ill conscience , breathing out by degrees , a full assurance of faith . and because he is a souldier , and many enemies will assault his colours , to win them , that he may never give them againe ; let him not only have such christian armes , but hold fast the profession of his faith , without wavering , that he doe not loose his crowne , and honour with christ . but , lord , how hard is this ? the christian is weak , and his enemies many & mighty . it is true therefore let him be strong in the lord , and run to such meanes as god hath appointed , who knowes best how to give , and how to guard all his graces given . and what meanes are they ? the publike and private communion of saints , mentioned in these words . the publicke is , not to forsake the assembling of our selves together . the private is , upon due consideration of our selves to exhort one another . these will make the christian keepe his ground , not loose his colours , not quit the field , but overcome in living , and bee more then conquerours in dying . the words ( without curiosity ) present these three parts unto you . first , the vertue of some christians , or rather the act of it . secondly , the vice of others , or rather the act of many vices : and thirdly , the use to be made of eschewing the one , and following the other . the act of vertue in all christians , who would keep what they have , is , m●n to forsake the assembling of our selves together : to keep publick communion of saints in the acts of religion and worship . the act of vices in some christians , who have no care to keepe what they have , or a vicious care to get something worse ; is , to forsake the assemblies , though the division of reuben make great thoughts of heart . the use that is to be made of flying the vices of these , and following the vertue of the others , is , to gaine ability from sound judgment , and due consideration , to exhort one another ; which hee sets on with a motive ; because the day is approaching , in which all must give accounts according to receits . thus have yee seene in a word , that a christian hath a rich and precious estate : that god is willing he should keep it to bring him to heaven : that it is possible for him to doe so in gods way : that this way is here set downe ; and therefore further follow it with me to gods glory , and your good . sect . 2. the way to keepe a christian state is publick communion . to speake first of the act of vertue of all good christians . if they would draw neere to heaven , and stand fast there , they must not forsake the assemblings of our selves together : they must love church assemblies , and the publicke fellowship of the saints : in a word , they that are good , and would be better , must choose to bee where gods people are in publicke service for the common faith , and our common salvation . all the best saints and people of god have been ever for this . they have loved , and delighted to pray , reade , meditate , and conferre in private : but were most glad when others would say unto them , let us go into the house of the lord. they mourned when they could not go with the throng of them , that went to the house of god , with the voice of joy and praise to keepe holy day . yea , they accounted a day in his courts better then a thousand , and had rather bee doorekeepers in the house of god , then to dwel in the tents of ungodlinesse . not onely they under the law were for it ( when yet gods blessings were in drops to ours in pouring showres ) : but as it was prophecied , that , in the daies of christ , christians should say , come let us goe up to the mountaine of the lord , to the house of the god of iacob ; so was it fulfilled by the first converted jewes and gentiles , as wee see in the history of the acts. yea , in the hardest times , and dayes of persecution , when goods , liberties , and lives , lay at the stake , how readily did they deprive themselves of naturall comforts for spiritual ? to the caves and holes of the earth , to stinking mines , and pits , to woods and dens would they flock ( when they had no places authorised for assemblings ) to perform their devotions , and publick worships . this hath beene ever the glorious practise of gods people : and we cannot wonder at it , when wee consider , the presence in our assemblies , and the benefit that ariseth from them . first in our assemblies are gods people , gods angels , gods ordinances , and god himselfe . there are gods people , who have respect due unto them from the greatest princes in the world . paul speaking to all sorts of christians , saith , submit your selves one unto another in the feare of the lord : and there is a double submission , of reverence , of service . by the first , all inferiours must submit themselves to their elders , and to every ordinance of man for the lords sake . by the second , even the highest must submit to the lowest for good . thus peter hath it , bee subject one to another : and that ye may not be hindered , hee cloathed with humility . thus esay prophecied , kings and queenes shall bow down to the church , with their faces to the earth , and shal lick up the dust of her feete . not by a subjection of reverence , as if they must be underlings to the censures of that particular congregation whereof they are ( as brownists would have it , whereof hereafter ) : but by a subjection of service , when they use their crownes and dignities for the honour and advancement of religion , as every good king doth . for they must not despise one of christs little ones : but with many people and strong nations seek the lord , and take hold of the skirt of him that is a iew ( that is a religious person ) saying , we will go with you , for we have heard the lord is with you ; there are the angels also . this was figured in the curtaines of the tabernacle , where cherubims were wrought of cunning worke : and in the walls of the temple , where were carved the carvings of cherubims : yea , this also hath been taught by the apostle ; who would have women to have power on their heads , ( that is , a vaile , as a significant ceremony of subjection to the man , among the corinthians ) because of the angels , who are their guardians , and there more especially , present with them . there are with gods people , and angels gods ordinances also , both the word , prayer , and sacraments . the word to bee a seed of immortality , and a word of life : praier to powre out our soules , that god and all grace may have roome enough to dwell in them : and the sacraments , to be the seales of the righteousnesse of faith , and so , the buckets of heaven to convey grace by gods assistance , and covenant , to the worthy receivers . lastly , there is with gods people , angels , and ordinances , god himselfe . for though wee cannot limit him to temples made with hands : yet christ having promised to be with his apostles alwaies to the end of the world ( which therefore must be enlarged to their successours when they were dead : ) and he having presented himselfe in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks : and lastly , having covenanted for his word and spirits going together : therefore certainely hee is ( by way of special favour ) in the assemblings of his people . if to the jewes , much more to us : because the ministration of the spirit is much more glorious . lay now this together , that in our assemblings there are gods people , gods angels , gods ordinances , and god himselfe and yee cannot wonder that the good have chosen to dwel in publick assemblies , if it might be , for ever . secondly , in our assemblies all things are for benefit : every thing is edifiable . and if our hearts were in tune , and our heads full of the expectation of gods spirituall blessings in heavenly things in christ , how might the kingdome of sinne and satan fall downe like lightning , as the walls of iericho at the sound of those rams-hornes of old , when we are in publicke worship . there yee have not onely the spirit promised , which will lead you into all saving truth , convince , convert , and comfort you , till yee are of full stature in christ : but yee have many hands to help you in confession , supplication , deprecation , intercession , and giving of thankes . there ye have many encouragements to hold on in the way of christ . there is the word to promise , sacraments to confirme , prayer to procure , and many of gods people to give you the right hand of fellowship till you come to your journeyes end . the first step to apostacy is the neglect of publick assemblies . as a man that hath an inclination to take wicked courses , withdrawes himselfe from good company ( as iudas when he went out from christ and his disciples , and yoaked with the high-priest and elders ) so , if a man encline to warp , hee declines the assemblies of gods people , as one wearie of such a course . but if hee stick unto them , his hands are strengthened to hold god fast , by the word of precept , promise , and correction ; by the sacraments , wherein a bargaine is strook betweene god and us , by the prayers of our selves and others , which bring god neere to helpe ; and by the examples of others , which have a compelling vertue to good , as well as ill . when therefore yee consider this bundle of profit , yee cannot wonder that gods people have so constantly tyed themselves to watch at the gate , and wait at the postes of the doores , where publicke worship hath beene prepared . oh that all gods people that ate good and would be better , would lay these things to heart , and not forsake our assembling together ! god workes by these meanes , and if wee forsake them , wee forsake the hands of the god of strength , which are in them stirred up to come and help us . forsake church assemblies and yee turne your backes upon gods face , angels , saints , and comforting acts of worship . forsake church assemblies and ye sad the hearts of gods people , strengthen the hands of wickednesse , and shew no reverence to worship . forsake church-assemblies , and yee let loose thousand of temptations upon you against faith and manners : the devill will take you upon his owne ground . you wil say ( happily ) that great presence ▪ and profit is talked of , but ye see none , nor feele any upon you . it maybe so , yet without the fault of our assemblies , and with the fault of none but your unworthy selves . take therfore this advice in gods feare , and speed better hereafter . first , come with prepared hearts , that is , hearts unloaded of the guilt of wilfull sins : hearts standing in awe of gods presence , and worshipping in feare : and hearts sincerely purposing to bee better . yee know gods advice , lay apart all filthinesse and superfluity of naughtinesse , and receive with meeknesse the ingraffed word which is able to save your souls . ye know peters proposition , now are we all here present before god , to heare all things that are commanded thee of god : and daevids practise . in thy feare wil i worship towards thy holy temple . ye know the prophecy that went of you of old , and davids resolution , to keepe the law , yea , to observe it with his whole heart , according to grace given . do but you thus , and yee shall find presence and profit . secondly , bring an humble soule along with you to god house . if god doe meete with you in our assemblies , hee acknowledgeth a publican , before a pharisee : hee calls no man benjamin , the sonne of his right hand , but those whom their owne hearts call benoni , in their humility : hee salutes them not naomi , beautifull , who doe not humbly feele themselves marah , bitter . the humble god wil teach , and the humbled god will lift up : for he fills the hungry with good things . bring but such senses , and yee shall see presence and profit . but if yee bee swift to heare , and not slow to speak , slow to wrath , god sends such rich ones emptie away , and casts such mighty ones from their thrones . thirdly , carry your hearts along thorough the whole service . loose your hearts , and loose your comforts in any thing ye do . it was sweetly sung of old , rejoyce the soule of thy servant , for unto thee doe i lift up my soule . let that plummet runne downe to the ground , and the wheeles of your actions will not runne to your content . therefore , do but you come with prepared hearts , humbled soules , and binde your hearts for hearty service in the whole , and then the presence in our assemblies shall bee for you , and the profit for you too , as well as for others , who are thus vertuous , as not to forsake our assemblings together . sect . 3. the vice of those that forsake publick communion . 1 ▪ of the prophane . all that can be said , will not prevaile with all . there are so many vices to overwhelm that , as it was of old , so is it stil , it is the manner of some to forsake our assemblings together . the apostle saw it of old , and laboured against it as an enemy to perseverance in the unity of faith and manners , we see it stil and must labour against this act of many vices . i le speake ( thorough gods helpe ) but of two sorts of persons , too neere unto us , who give themselves unto this fault : the first are prophane , the second would be accounted truely religious . the prophane shew themselves by foure degrees of forsaking our assemblies . the first , is coming to our assemmblies like those that are unwilling . these that doe so are not altogether withdrawn in body , but in heart are too farre from us . the godly say , let us go speedily and pray before the lord : they are like the isles that wait for the law ; because they are willing people . but they come as if they were in fetters , and bolts , like zachariahs women pressed into an epha with a talent of lead . lord , how slow is their pace , as if it were to the jaile , or bridewel . the second is , loving to be any where , rather then in the assembly . surely , when any act this , though sometimes they come , yet they forsake apace . gods people cannot rejoyce in such commers , when god told ezekiel that hee should goe to a rebellious people that were unwilling to submit , hee went in bitternesse and indignation of spirit . such needes must be the movings of the heart of the assembly about such commers . these thinke not that they should come to doe homage to god , as david presseth , give , give , unto the lord , glory strength , worship due unto his name . they thinke not , that hee that despiseth the ministery done in assemblies , despiseth not man , but christ : therefore they love any meetings rather then them . they account church-assemblies rather matters of complement , then necessitie . they need no soule reparations , so their bodies bee fat , and well-liking . wee read of one victorinus of old , who would bee a christian , but frequented not christian assemblies . but godly simplicianus met him , and thus saluted him , i will not reckon thee among christians , unlesse i see thee in the church among them . let these men take home this judgement , and see how they can digest it . the third degree , is preferring private before publicke worship . if they can say they read , & pray at home ( though they reade but their owne indictment , and pray for their owne punishment in the neglect of gods rule in assembling ) they think all is well , and conscience is wel enough satisfied . but these are enemies to the honor of god , to their owne good , and to the good of others . god is most honoured in the service of assemblies : therefore david vowed to give thanks to god in a great congregation ▪ he knew that this advanced gods honour most . our owne good surely shall be greater in assemblies : the lord loves the gates of sion ( where publick worship was ) more then all the dwellings of iudah ; and certainely where his love is , there are best meanes for our good . besides , wee come to seek that which is lost , or ready to dye : and when many seeke there is more hope of finding . therfore when god was turned away from favour , the people were appointed to blow the trumpet in sion , to gather together , that they might be more successeful . lastly , the profit of others by our examples will be more conspicuous in assemblies : our light will there best shine before men . for this end was solamons brazen scaffold in the midst of the court : and ioash stood by the pillar as the manner was . it is true , that others examples in doing worse must not weaken us in doing better . though israel play the harlot , yet let not iudah sin : we must not follow a multitude to do evill , much lesse must ye follow some . examples are not the rule which we should follow if they be good , they cleare a law they doe not make it . following of others cannot help us in the day of account . i have done as others , will be a poore plea. the three and twenty thousand were not helped by the thousand princes , who were their leaders to their destruction . but yet if our examples be good in acts of assembling and worship according to gods rule , then will others profit bee helped , as by the contrary it will bee much hindered . the last degree whereby prophane persons withdraw from our assemblies is , not coming with the first , and not staying with the last . david would not bee guilty : he desired to bee a doorekeeper , who was first in , and last out . hee knew not how better to professe himselfe to be a seeker of god early , and to stand in neede of all the acts of worship , from the first humbling for a blesssing , and craving of it , to the last giving of it : and thus should it bee with us . wee must come with the first . cornelius and his friends , and servants , waited for peter . they prevented him that nothing might fall from his ministery untaken up . the cripple waited for the moving of the waters at the descending of the angel : so must all gods willing people at the places of assembling . wee must also stay with the last . even the prince shall bee in the midst of the people in the temple , he shal go in , when they go in , and when they go forth , they shall go forth together . the jewes and gentiles at antiochia continued in publicke service till the congregation was dissolved . and though zachary stayed long in the middle temple , yet the people would not depart without the blessing which the priest must give . if any doe otherwise ( without necessity ) they withdraw from our assemblings , and are in a way of forsaking . sect . 4. 2 the forsakers of our assemblies that would be accounted godly ; and first of their name . there are others , who would bee accounted truely religious , who forsake the assembling of our selves together ▪ and these have a name of pride , and a name of justice . the name of pride , which they take to themselves , is separatists . they read sometimes in the scriptures of separation , especially when paul ( saith according to the prophet ) come out from among them and be ye separate . and when they doe not wisely observe our state , which is not to be separated from , but see with full contentment their owne vaine separation , they will needs glory in the name of separatists , as others doe of catholickes . the name of justice is brownists ; which though they love not to heare of , because browne , after his platforme of a new way of advancing christs kingdome , upon wiser thoughts , returned from them , yet how justly they must retaine that name may appeare in that which followes . wee reade of five introductions to this schisme , before it was raised to the height it now hath : height i say , in mold , and opinion , not in members , which have beene so few this sixteene hundred yeares and more , that we may demonstratively say , it is a brat of mans braine , not a child of christ , that so long growes not at all . first , about two hundred fifty three yeares after christ , wee reade of one novatus , wo first lived under cyprian , next at rome . hee being willing to get himselfe a name , denied repentance to them that had denied christ , thorough heat of persecution , though out of feare . yea , he denied repentance to believers who after baptisme fell into any grosse sinne . after by a strong ambition hee had indeavoured to bee a bishop , and was disappointed , he led many poore soules into his sect : who because they thought themselves better then other christians ( upon the former conceits ) called themselves cathari , or puritanes . these suffered their ebbe , and flow , for a time as pride and humility tooke turnes . i am sure that your forsakers will not childe it from such a father . here was a separation from the unitie of the church , but they will not have it theirs . secondly , about three hundred thirty and one yeares after christ , or ( as some write ) something lower , wee read of one donatus , who , not being able to make his party good against cecilianus his bishop , took stomach , and drew a strong party after him for a time . they had this pretense for their separation , that the wicked did defile the good in the communion of the sacraments . they accounted the church to bee no where , but in africk amongst themselves . they judged their time to bee the harvest of the church , they being a choise remnant , like a little wheat in much chaffe . if they were pressed to conformity by the authority of the emperour , they cried out , what hath the emperour to doe with the church ? being asked , how they could prove that they onely were the church ? they replied , from the wonders of donatus : from their prayers heard at the sepulchers of the donatists : and from the visions , and dreames of the members of their church , they accounted sacraments holy onely , when administred by holy persons . they account no true baptisme , but in their church : and therefore they rebaptized all that came into their communion . they would runne into invited and unnecessary dangers . this they called martyrdom , whether they suffered from themselves , or others . i am sure also that our forsakers will not owne these for their setters up in all points , if for nothing else , yet for this they had bishops . heere was a separation long and irkesom , yet surely , they will not be of such an episcopall separation . thirdly , besides the separatiō of lucifer : who falling at odds with eusebius vercellensis about the ordination of honest paulinus , departed in choler from the peace of the church , and made a proud breach , wee reade about the yeare after christ three hundred seventy one , of one audeus a syrian , who raised up by the cōmon opinion of his zeal , and integrity , a company of followers , who would not pray with other christians , and bishops , crying these downe as being too rich : who also gave this reason of their separation , that in the bosome of the church , were suffered usurers , and impure livers . these sometimes dwelt in solitary places by themselves , and sometimes in the suburbs of cities . they fained also great holinesse and chastity , and dreamed god to have mans forme , and humane parts . but their sect outlived not their persons : and i am sure also , that our forsakers wil not acknowledge themselves to bee of this condemned breed . fourthly , when the thoughts of the best christians were taken up with more weighty matters , and the necessity of times had invited them to faith and doctrine , or the vaile of darkenesse had covered too many hearts , these pettie sidings beganne to vanish , and were at last utterly extinct , till the light of the gospel shined upon the church with fuller glorie againe . then , as the enemy troubled the wheat with blasted corne , our forsakers say they had a church againe . in king henry the eights , and luthers dayes they finde ( say they ) some congregations upon their bottome . and indeed wee finde in stories , that some of their vaine opinions crept into the heads of some right godly persons , in other points who were ready to suffer for christ , and did so : for it is hard not to fall from one extreamity to another , if sound judgement ( according to the rule given ) doe not poise the lightnesse of affections . but these in germany , were crowned with the name of anabaptists , whose doctrine , and practise , to overthrow the church , and state , are well knowne , and as well confuted and condemned , by luther , calvine , zanchius , and an whole army of others . but our forsakers ( i am sure ) will not own these in all points , neither will they owne them , because they forsake them also in some . fiftly therefore , wee must goe lower yet : and if wee come to the daies of blessed queene elizabeth , after divers strugglings for excesses ( which surely is no friend to the gospel among variety of judgements , which know but in part ) , wee meete with one browne , who first raiseth a new platforme of all the tenets of our forsakers ( if yet , by time , and age , they have not made them worse ) . this man , after hee had infected some by preaching , found meanes to poison others by writing of his estate of true christians , and other pamphlets . his conceits , within this last age , have lived and died by turnes , as they have been the objects of discontēted , or quiet spirits . if humble soules have met with them , they have seene in them the poison of peace , the renting of the seamelesse coate of christs church , the building upon a covenant of workes , and the hindering of the progresse of the gospell in faith , and love . but if they have beene cast upon a raging sea of an unquiet , and disjointed heart , they have bred barrowes , greenwoods , penries , robinsons , iohnsons , aynsworths , and smiths , the onely men ( so farre as i know ) of that full straine , who have tasted of more or lesse learning ill placed , from christs time downward . seeing therfore , browne is the first full-father of our forsakers , who raised up their building to that height they would faine maintaine it at : surely , they can have no other name of justice then brownists , which they must hold , except they can prove that theirs is a newer way . indeed browne did afterward fall away from them , and his owne tenets , for the most part . but seeing the first authour justly gives the name ( as that carpenter that builds an house for the building of it , though afterward hee burne it down ) therefore i cannot bee so unjust , as to suffer them , by mee , to bee called by any other , then that they received from him in his new christianity . if now , you aske the issue of this discourse ; it is to draw to this conclusion , that this church of theirs was never heard of till brownes time ; and so i argue thus . that which never was a true church from christs time to the daies of queene elizabeth , was not a true church then , nor is a true church now : for the gates of hell must not prevaile against it . but the brownists church was never a true church from christs time to the dayes of queene elizabeth : therefore it was not a true church then , nor is now as they would have it , if they say , that some of their opinions were of old : i confesse it is true . but let them shew but one church , which either positively in all points which make their church ( to them ) a church ; or negatively , in denying contrary tenets held by the true church , and then they shall bee the true church for mee . but it may bee they will say , that the church of rome thus disputes against us ▪ it is true : and so doe wee against them about their church built up by the late councell of trent : affirming confidently that there was never one church but was under the curse of that councel , if it had beene of force before . but when they plead so against us , wee goe to that which made true visible churches in the apostles dayes , and ever since , that is professed submission to the rule of faith in the scriptures , and a profession of faith in the trinity , especially in jesus christ our lord , that rocke whereupon the church is built : and so long as we have this , wee feare not their plea. if they say , that they doe thus much to make them a true church also . it is true , they doe it , as wee doe ; and yet they denie us ( so doing ) to be a true church except wee be of their new covenant . if therefore , they cannot finde a church of that covenant till brownes daies , how can they bee a true church which hath never failed , nor ever shall ? let them duely consider this issue , and god give them understanding in all things . sect . 5. of that name they would have ( separatists ) and how unjustly assumed as a title of honour . it is most true , that they are loath to acknowledge the name of browne their father , not sticking to brand him with the livery of a turne-coate , if not apostate ( and surely deserves to bee soundly lashed who would rashly father it to such a breach ) : yea , and they tell us , that they will have their name from scriptures , not from men , and will be called , they of the separation . in this i am yet glad , that they love the scriptures more then men : and i humbly pray , that all that would be accounted good men , would not tell us what this good man , and that , held , and said ; but what jesus christ hath left to be held in the sure word of god , that their faith may not stand in the wisedome of men . but yet before we believe them , we must know in what scripture their name of separation stands . we reade indeed that god saith to israel , i am the lord thy god which separate you from other people , which salomon thus expounds , thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth . but are not all christians separated thus as well as they , from iewes , turkes , heathens ? israel was not separate from raigning sinne , and sinners , but for profession and service of the true god. for even then god said of them , yee have tempted me these tenne times , and have not harkened unto my voyce : this evill congregation are gathered together against mee : thou art a stiffenecked people : thou hast provoked me to wrath , and i was angry with thee to destroy thee : and i hope , all christians are of no worse separation then this . we reade againe that paul at ephesus , departed from the wicked , and separated the disciples . it is well it was an apostle , who had an universall jurisdiction by immediate call , and not private persons , who may not doe as hee . it was well , it was paul , who went to jewish synagogues , to have spirituall communion , and preached none other thing , but that which moses and the prophets did say should come to passe , and not his owne dreames . but for his separating the disciples , we reade , he separated them from divers , not from all ; and that from those that were hardened , and believed not , and spake evill of faith in christ before the multitude , as the text saith . what is this to our church ? wherein they cannot find one member that believes not in christ ( at least doctrinally ) , nor one that speakes evill of the way of believing in christ , though thousands justly speak evill of their way , which is the thing in question . wee reade also againe that renowned place , come out from among them , and be yee separate , and touch no uncleane thing , and i will receive you saith the lord. for what fellowship hath righteousnesse with unrighteousnesse , and what agreement hath light with darknesse ? but this will not affoord them the name of separatists neither . looke to the persons that must be separated from . they are heathenish infidels , unbelievers , idolaters , in utter darkenesse , and so , not acknowledging the true god. and are wee in the church of england such ? doe wee not pr●fesse saving truth ? doe we not look , from the first , to the last , to bee saved onely by christ ? if any professe they know god , and by workes deny him , yet shall not all things be pure to them that are pure ? looke next to the persons that are charged to separate . they are the christian corinthians , to whom the apostle gives sweete words , the church of god ; called to be saints ; a gracious people by iesus christ ; called to the fellowship of gods son ; in christ , christs owne ; begotten in christ iesus thorough the gospell ; the seale of mine apostleship in the lord ; whom i praise because yee keepe the ordinances ; and who are full of godly sorrow , with the signes of it : yet will these corinthians justifie the church of england by their wicked vices , both in publicke , and in their private meetings , as i shall ( if god please ) sh●w hereafter . consider now , that this christian church , which was commanded to separate from heathens in their idol-feasts , and abominable atheisme , was yet in something worse then the heathens themselves yet doth hee not teach them to separate one from another in christian duties of piety and charity ; but to redresse each other as they could , and onely to separate from the heathens , that they may be all knowne to be professed , and not dissembled christians . looke lastly , to the matter the apostle treateth of . it is to warne christians from having fellowship with the unfruitfull workes of darkenesse , and to reprove them ( in their places ) in word , judgement , affection and conversation . that , with which they must have no fellowship , paul termeth unrighteousnesse , darknesse , belial , idols . the way whereby they may have fellowship with them ▪ he termes , yoaking , concord , partaking , and agreement . and it plainely appeares that it is as murh as if he had said , yee that are christians must not be with the unrighteous men of darkenesse , sonnes of belial , and idolaters , as if ye were yoaked in their society , living at one , partaking , and agreeing with them in their wicked course . how i pray , can they raise a name of separation to themselves from hence , except they can prove that all of us live in unrighteousnesse , and darknesse , in league with satan , and in idolatrie , and that we as paires , and couples are linked together , and partake of these evils ? or how can we justly give them that name of separatists except wee will grant our selves to bee such ? let them bee , from their first father , brownists : and because they will be of the number and manner of those , some that forsake the assembling of our selves together ; therefore let us with a good conscience , and as quiet a spirit as their cause will permit examine their grounds by the word of god. sect . 6. of the brownists opinions upon which they forsake our church , 1. because we are not a true church . these grounds of brownisme they referre to three heads , to wit , our church , our ministery , and our worship . 1 they deny us to have a true church . 2 they deny us to have a true ministery . 3 they deny us to have a true worship . if this charge were true , surely , they might say as david to eliab , is there not a cause ? but whether it bee not most false let a good conscience , guided by the word of god , judge , first , they deny that wee have a true church . and though wee being in possession , and they labouring to cast us out , we might put them to the proofe , yet shall i ( by gods helpe ) tender them this one reason , among many , to prove that we have a true church . where there is the true matter and form of a true church , there is a true church . for this cannot be denied , that the matter and forme of a true man make a true man , that is , the body and soule united : so must it be in the church . but our church hath the true matter and forme of a true church : and therefore is a true church . it is denied by the brownists that wee have such matter and forme ; and it is proved thus , first for the matter . the true matter of a true church is such as professe saving truth taught in the scriptures , and is proved thus . that which makes a man a true member of a true churh , that doth make a true church ( for members doe constitute the whole ) : but profession of saving truth makes a true member of a true church ; for symon magus , upon his profession was admitted a member , till he fell away : and the eunuch upon the same profession was admitted too by baptisme , and for ought wee know continued for ever . now , that we in the church of england do professe saving truth , according to the scriptures cannot be denied . if the brownists say , that wee overthrow all by thousands of wicked lives in persons , in , and of our church . i am sure that the church of corinth was worse then ours can be ( in some things ) , it was too bad with envyings , carnall men , uncharitable wretches , that went to law before infidels , scandalizing the weake , partaking with idols , heresies , abuse of the lords supper by drunkennesse , and contempt of the poore , and with detestable incest : yet when paul writes unto them ( even before the incestuous person was cast out ) he salutes them all , as those that are the church of god , saints by calling , and sanctified in christ iesus , at least , by a sanctification of consecration in baptisme , and their profession . but say the brownists , doth profession make a church of the body of christ ? will nothing but the body of christ serve for a true church ? then let them know that christs body may be taken two wayes : for a body of all those that shall be saved ; and this is the catholicke church , which are in communion of saints for life : and for a body of those that are in the way of salvation if they be not enemies to themselves ; as every branch in christ that beareth not fruit . thus the whole church of corinth was christ as well as any other part of the church , and in christ iesus , though too many members of it professed without power . for profession brings a church into outward fellowship with christs body ( as bad servants with a good master ) and so into the way of being savingly of the body of christ if they resist not , grieve not , quench not , or despise not the spirit of grace . secondly , for the forme of a true church , that is christ united unto the persons professing his saving truth . for as the forme of a man is his soule united to his body ; so the forme of a church , which is the body of christ , is christ united unto it . now , that christ is united unto our church , is proved thus : because hee gives the law of union to us as to the body , and makes it effectuall for conviction , or conversion , to serve the living and true god. as a king is united to his subjects by his lawes , and executions of them for rewards and punishments : so is jesus christ to our church . as the head united gives lawes to the body for safety : so doth christ give lawes to us for our salvation in his word . he hath not dealt so with every nation , yet ( blessed bee his name ) he hath so dealt with us to the joy of our soules . true ( say the brownists ) wee have his lawes , but doe not answer them in our lives . this doth not cut us off ( being but true in part ) till christ hath sued out his bill of divorce , no more then the disobedience of a wife makes her no wife ; the disobedience of a sonne no sonne ; and the disobedience of a servant no servant . againe christ is united to us , because hee makes his law effectuall for the convincing of all , and for the converting of many soules to cleave unto him faithfully . vve are baptized , and so put on christ , and are graffed into the similitude of his death and resurrection . but as we grow in age , many grow in gracelesnesse , and forget the covenant of their god. then comes the word of christ convincing , and calls many backe , kills sinne , quickens grace , and converts the hearts of the fathers to the children , and the disobedient to the wisedome of the just . this the brownists will not deny . they confesse that god hath many gracious people amongst us by the word , and sacraments . vvhence , i pray , doth this proceed , but from the influence and power of christ united to us ? i am sure that christ is the way to heaven ; and one soule cannot bee converted from the kingdome of sinne to grace , but it is by the power and influence of christs three offices . as he is a prophet , hee must be his wisedome , to teach him repentance from dead works , and faith in christ . as hee is a priest , he must make his attonement betwixt god and him for righteousnesse . and as he is a king , hee must over-master the gates of hell , and maintaine him to himselfe in the way of salvation , for sanctification , and full redemption . conclude therefore , that if wee have the matter and forme of a true church , wee must bee a true church against all exception , if good conscience judge by the word of god. sect . 7. brownists first exceptions against us , about the nature of a visible church . but because the brownists make a great noise in maintaining against us , that ours is not a true church : therefore take particular view of their pleas against it , that wee may see the unjustnesse of their forsaking it . i shall by gods helpe referre them to five heads . 1 what they meane by a true church . 2 the entrance into a true church . 3 the head of a true church . 4 the members of a true church . 5 the governement of a true church , they meane by a true church , a set congregation of more or fewer , separated from all false waies , and having sufficient authority within it selfe for governement in all causes ecclesiasticall , and assembling ( at times convenient ) for exercise of governement and solemne worship . this is the full summe of what i can conceive them to say of a true church : in which they would make it up of these foure ingredients . first , it must be a set congregation ( which we call a parish , and they mislike ) . every one of these they would have an absolute church , depending upon none but christ : and so they deny kings over countries , and bishops over diocesses to bee members of the church , except they can shew those particular congregations whereof they are but equall members to be ruled by the joint consent of the whole number , or ( it may bee ) the greatest part . secondly , it must bee separated from all false wayes , not onely of iewes , turkes , and pagans , but from all grosse sinnes and sinners , which doe pollute the worship of the sincerest service of god. yet surely , they would have them better taught , and made good , that , by the consent of the members , they might be jointed in at last . thirdly , it must have sufficient authority within it selfe for governement in all causes ecclesiasticall , that is , a plenary power , by consent of members , to ordaine ministers , call , or cast them out , ( as the necessity of the church requires ) to excommunicate , and receive in , and to order all things in their assemblies for the advancement of christs kingdome , without the leave or restraint of any . fourthly , it must assemble for acts of governement , and solemne worship , ( without which it is but a shadow ) that is , it must meete in their meeting places to pray , preach , prophecy , baptize , and communicate , as the spirit gives wisedome and utterance . now , because they finde not our churches thus made up , according to their owne fansies ; therefore doe they forsake them as false , or ( at the least ) no true churches . this is their new way of churching and unchurching of assemblies ( so farre as i can gather by their conferences and writings ) : and they judge of our assemblies after this mould . i hope they will not deny us to have assemblies ; or to be separate from iewes , turkes , pagans , idolaters , and wicked belialists , in communion for spirituall life by christ ; that wee have authority , and power for ordination , excommunication , absolution , and order ; or that wee have assemblies for governement , and solemne worship : and for the rest of the frame it is but the issue of their owne braine , and not of the law and rule of christ . for first , whereas they would have no nationall churches , but particular in dependent congregations : they must confesse that the whole nation of israel was but one church . and though then they had but one tabernacle , yet when after they were divided into severall synagogues , did they not continue the only church of god ? were they not still reputed of god as one man , though some were better , and more worse ? it is true , say they , because they had but one high-priest , a figure of christ which was to vanish . nay rather , because they were but one people and common-wealth , professing the same religion , and ruled by the same lawes , both before they had one high-priest , and after , when ( by corruption ) they had two . neither was the high-priest in respect of governement a type of christ ( for so was melchizedech , of whose order christ was , and not after the order of aaron ) : but in respect of his sacrifice , and intercession for the whole people , and his enterance alone into the holy of holies , bearing the names of the twelve tribes : and christs governement belongs to his kingdome , not to his priest-hood . besides , must they not confesse that that one church of the nation of jewes was governed : by one law , and one king ? one law for the substance of governement , and one king to order both priests , and people : and that not as a type of christ , but as a king by royall authority , as head of the tribes , as i shal cleare hereafter . yea , doe wee not reade of the church of ephesus which was one house of god ; over which timothy was the first angell and bishop ( as it comes to us from oldest records ) to rule all presbyters , deacons , widowes , and people in their severall assemblies ? for how fond were it to thinke that all the elders , deacons , and believers that paul gives him jurisdiction over there , should be of one assembly ? especially seeing titus his fellow-bishop was left in creta to ordeine elders , and oversee them in every city , according to the necessity of severall assemblies . secondly , whereas they urge that a true church must be separate from all false waies : it is true ; it must be thus in profession , when they are plainely discovered by undoubted scriptures : but that it must be actually thus , or be unchurched , is utterly false . israel was gods people , when the sonnes of eli ( in communion with them ) were sonnes of belial and knew not the lord. moses calls them gods people , even when they were not separated from idolatry : because he had no authority to cast them off , before god himselfe had given a bill of divorce . god by esay , calls the jewes his children and people , when they were so farre from being separated from rulers of sodome , rebellious princes , companions of theeves : that they had such teachers as caused them to erre , such women as were full of hellish pride , such rich men as were cruell oppressours , such inhabitants as the earth was defiled under them ; and such a face of the church as the faithfull city was become an harlot , with their oakes , and gardens of idolatrie , ready to bring confusion . paul calls the corinthians a church of god , saints by calling , when at that instant many in communion with them had debates , envyings , whisperings , wraths , strifes , backbitings , swellings , tumults , and had not repented of the uncleannesse , fornication , and lasciviousnesse , which they had committed . read the epistles of christ to the seven churches in asia , and yee shall finde much abominable wickednesse , and yet they were crowned by christ himselfe with the name of churches . if the brownists plead that these churches should have beene separated . indeed they should have better then they were , and because they were not , they after felt the heavie hand of god : but that the good should have fallen out with god for the sinne of man , and beene separated from the good things of god , for the wickednesse of those that were in outward communion of christianity , that we no where , nor ever , i am sure shall read . thirdly , whereas they plead , that every particular congregation hath sufficient power , by generall vote of members , in all causes ecclesiasticall , i must wonder , before answere , what ? have the people , all the members , power of jurisdiction over all ? what new scripture hath ever christ made for this confusion ? surely , we finde it not before the law : for then power of governement lay upon adam , noah , abraham , isaack , iacob , ioseph , and their peeres . surely it was not under the law : for then power of governement lay upon moses , and his assistants , ( even by the advice of iethro ) and upon aaron , to whom the people must assent . the law was delivered to the priests and elders , and they were charged to looke to the rest . it is as sure also that it is not under the gospel . the people attempted nothing but by the liking leave , and approbation of the apostles . the apostles ordeined elders in every city for the people without them , and conferred with the elders of the church for the good of their assemblies without the people : yea , and upon consultation did decre● a matter for the peace of the church without them when their gifts were at the height . it is true , that sometimes the people were acquainted with some great matter in counsell : not because they had authority without which the apostles and elders could doe nothing : but to acqu●int them with reasons , and to incourage them in their graces . thus bishop cyprian sometimes did , and sometimes superiours do require the assent of inferiours for better peace and love . and that the people had no authority in governing the church appeares by the commission of christ to his apostles , and those that should succeed them , goe yee ( saith christ ) and teach and baptise , teaching them to observe what ever i have commanded , and i am with you alwaies to the end of the world . the promise is as the charge , to the apostles and their successours , and not to the people in businesse that concernes them not . againe , i will give thee the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , ( saith christ to peter in the name of the rest ) : and therefore , makes good his word to them all ; he sent them , inspired them , and then said , whose sinnes ye remit or retaine , shall be remitted or retained . it would be strange after this commission , to heare of a power of governing in the people ; especially seeing for the executing of it , christ gave officers to his church , and not to his church power to make them : hee gave them to his church , to bee in christs stead to direct and rule by his word , and not to bee directed and ruled by it . therefore if any thing be out of order he blameth them , not the people . i contended with the rulers and nobles , saith nehemiah : and to the angels of churches speakes christ sharpely for things amisse . and for the people , christ would not have them rule , but to be subject to magistrates , and spirituall overseers . this i am confident of , that there cannot one precept , or practise be given that the people should , or did rule in the church , but under their guides and teachers , except corah and his accomplices who were swallowed up in wrath . as for that text , tell the church , and that other of the incestuous person , we shall meete with them in their proper places . in the meane time know , that the sonne of man hath left his house , and given authority to his servants ( for edification , not for destruction ) and not to his house , which is the church . the people are still called sheep , brethren , houshold of faith , spouse , and children : but their teachers are knowne by the name of elders , overseers , and fathers , on whom the governement lies . but ( say the brownists ) the saints are answereable to the kings of old , who are to have power ecclesiasticall in their hands . indeed they are so called , but not in respect of any outward power over others more then before , but of inward power to rule , by the annointing of christ , over their own pride and corruption . this they will not doe , and so speake evill of them in authority , and advance themselves above the pitch which god hath given there . it is a brave thing to rule , and who would not doe so ? but if they were davids weaned childe , they would rather bee subject by doing and suffering , then lift up themselves to high places of governement , from whence they may fall to their shame and sorrow . lastly , whereas they put into the end of their assembling , not onely the exercise of governement , whereof they have none , and preaching , prayer , sacraments , which are good indeed , if done by right persons , and in right manner ; but prophecying too : surely herein they walke not with a right foote according to the truth of the scriptures . they make prophecying an act of some private persons , whereby , as the spirit moves them , they put in , in publicke , their verdicts with their pastours and doctours , about the sence , doctrine , and application of the scriptures propounded : but how christs word makes this good to them i cannot see , nor ever shall . indeed the apostle speakes of prophecying , but as of an office of some persons then , not of an ordinary gift now . he saith , let the prophets speake two or three : and i am sure , that prophets have an office to prophecy . hee saith also , prophecying is a speaking to men to exhortation , edification , and comfort : and i pray , what can the highest gift of preaching doe more ? if they may preach , why may they not administer the sacraments , seeing both goe together ? they cannot say , that to preach is an act of office , and to prophecy , is an act out of office . for where the apostle speakes expressely of prophecying according to the proportion of faith , hee doth speak as plainly of offices as of gifts . if therefore they will prophecy , let them shew their calling to that office , and then vent their gifts . doe they doe it by vertue of their generall , or speciall calling ? they deny any speciall calling , and wee denie that they doe it by vertue of the generall calling of a christian , because that gives not the office . how much better were it for them to follow the word of christ , no man taketh this honour to himselfe , but he that is called of god as aaron , then by jumbling ordinary , and extraordinary gifts and offices together , to utter things , for want of knowledge , wisedome reading , and doctrine , unworthy of the great god of assemblies . thus have i considered the foure parcels of which the brownists make up a true visible . none of which singly , nor all jointly can make our blessed church not to be so : because they are made up of divers falshoods already discovered . let us now take better view out of gods word , what a true visible church is , that in it we may see our owne . a true visible churth is , men called , and united in the profession of the truth according to the scriptures . this is alwaies where there is a true visible church , either planted , or continued , or restored . if it be nationall , it is a company of people professing truth in an whole land , as the churches of iudea , samaria , and galile , with those of asia . if it be parochial , it is a company of people professing the truth in a towne , or parish : as in those where the apostles ordained elders in every church . if it be domesticall , it is a company professing the truth in a family : as in philemons house , and others . it is true , that the truth may bee more purely professed in one church then in another : more purely in smyrna , and philadelphia , which were praised , and lesse purely in ephesus , sardis , and laodicea , which were dispraised . it is true also that some churches may be in infancy , and so lesse perfect , as that in creta , where titus was left to redresse things amisse , and those churches of the gentiles , which must not bee troubled for feare of a rent : and some of riper age , as that at ierusalem , where iames was bishop , and the apostles held a councel , and so had a more setled forme of governement : and that of philippi , which had their bishops and deacons . but if they joine to professe the truth of christ they are true visible churches . first , they ramble ( as sheep without a shepheard ) without god , without christ . christ makes himselfe knowne unto them by the preaching of the word . they assemble as those that professe to seeke salvation that way , some more closely , some more loosely . they publickely submit to the word of god and sacraments , and calling on the name of the lord. these persons thus professing make up a true visible church , either in a kingdome , city , town , or house , though they bee worse then peter in his worse part ( not walking with a right foote ) : yea though too many of them bee as bad as simon magus who joyned to philip and was baptized . when god sent forth his servants to invite guests , there was the calling of a church , when good and bad that were invited , came to the wedding feast , there was their profession . this made up a visible church , though many were called and few chosen , but left in their chosen wayes to their ruine . when wise and foolish virgines came of duty to attend their lord , though five only had lasting oile , and five had but lampes only , there was a true visible church . when the sower went out to sowe the word of god , though some fell in the high-wayes , and some among the stones , some among thornes , and but some in good grounds ; yet all these professing hearers made up a true visible church . when a man sowed good seed , and his enemie sowed tares , or blasted corne , which sprang up as from the same roote , which must grow together till the harvest , there is a true visible church . when a net was cast into the sea and gathered together fish , both good and bad ; good to bee reserved in vessels , and bad to be cast away , there also is a true visible church , the kingdome of heaven upon earth . the word comes , and when it is received , it makes the church by profession a candlesticke , a citie set on an hill which cannot be hid , especially when those that receive it are baptized , which is the seale of profession . as open profession of men , who say they are willing to fight under the colours of a captaine ( and therefore take their military sacrament ) are a true visible army , though many runne away in the day of battell : so is it in the visible church , which is as acompany of two armies . cains , chams , iudasses , simon the sorcerers , and demas , their profession made them all members of the visible church , with abel , noah , peter , philip , and paul. it is true , that afterwards they either went backe , or were throwne out by justice ; but the question is , what made them members of the visible church ? and that was joyning in profession of the truth , as the profession of the same trade , art , craft , science , or mystery , makes men of such a society , though some are more worthy , and some lesse . this therefore being gods truth concerning the nature of the visible church ; and the brownists visible church being coupled of many falshoods , whatsoever they say , cannot helpe their new church , nor hurt our old church , which is built upon the rocke , the foundation of the prophets and apostles , jesus christ himselfe being the chiefe corner stone . sect . 8. brownists second exception against us : about the entrance into a true church . next they object against us the entrance into a true church . wee should ( say they ) have entred into the state of a visible church , by voluntary covenant upon knowledge , to advance the kingdome of christ ▪ and so to have a right to the name of a true church , and to the priviledges of it for us , and our children : but wee were forced in our first planting by edicts , lawes , and proclamations , and yet admitted members , and our posteritie after us by baptisme , even of such of us as are not members indeed . put case this great plea were true at first , yet may not an after mending of what was first amisse , rectifie and confirme all ? things may bee ill done at first , which being once done , may bee of force , and being well carried may end with a blessing . a child marries without consent of parents , and it is wickedly done , yet when it is done , and sealed with the bed by free consent , shall it not bee of force ? nay , doe not parents looke upon their courses , and , if they see a good carriage , and good successe , doe they not like it well , and follow it with their blessings ? shall wee make god an harder master ? will hee not love iacob though hee got the blessing by deceit ? god purposed him the blessing : and though hee got not the possession the right way , shall his purpose faile ? god forbid : yea let god be true and every man a lyar ; iacobs unbeliefe makes not the faith of god of none effect . so might god deale with us . hee purposed to us the covenant of the gospell , and wee came not to it the right way , yet when we are in it , in the place where it was said unto us , ye are not my people , wee shall bee called the children of the living god. put case a childe bee cut out of the mothers belly , and come not the ordinary way , shal the father when hee sees it live , and thrive , deny it to be his childe , and conclude it to be a bastard ? so will our god deale with us . but why should wee grant them this ? wee failed not in our entrance : they can never prove it by the word of christ . a true visible church may bee considered two waies ; in the planting , and in the reforming of it . how wee entred into a true church in our first planting , god knowes , we know not from his word . the sound of the apostles went into all the earth , and their words into the end of the world . the gospel is come unto you ( saith paul to the colossians ) and to all the world , and bringeth forth fruit : and surely it entred to us ( as it should ) by some apostle , or apostolicke men , to make our ancient predecessours a true church . before , we were without christ : now wee know him . before , wee were without the covenant ; now wee are in by baptisme . before , wee were no professours ; now we are , and god shewes mercy to thousands among them that love him , and keepe his commandements , and is their god , and the god of their seede . but this is not the state of the question now . therefore for the reforming of a church god would have this course . as it was with iob , hee was first of gods making , and next ( by gods permission ) of the devils marring , when he was full of botches and sores , scarce knowne to his friends , and loathsome to his wife . all this while iob was a true man , as he was before , though clouded with some fearefull fits of impatience . but when god would lift up iob againe , hee did not make a new iob , but reformed the old , he cured , and cleansed him , that hee might appeare like himselfe , and his end was happy . so god dealt with the church . after it had covenanted with god at first , it wanted no botches , it was fearefully overspread with diseases . but when god would have it raised againe , hee doth not build a new church , but reformeth the old . hee shewes our forefathers where they were at a losse : that they had the faith of christ in the articles , and the profession of it in publicke festivities : but with fearefull superstitions and vanities . therefore hee puts into their hands , and the hands of his ministers , the word of his covenant , and the sacraments of his covenant rightly administred : and thus ( by degrees ) wee fall to publicke profession of christs truth , by union of lawes , consents , and practises . what then , is the want in our entrance , which doth make us no true church ? the brownists heere , plead foure things . 1 all our members entred not upon knowledge . 2 they made not a covenant for christ . 3 they were not voluntary professours . 4 they were baptized when they were the seede of those that were not members of the visible church by actuall profession . that all our members entred not upon knowledge , is false ; were they in planting from no church , or in reforming from a corrupt church ? surely , the knowledge of the doctrine of salvation by the blessed trinitie , is sufficient for the receiving in of members . for christ saith , goe teach all nations and baptize them . and wh●t must they bee taught ? that which they must bee baptized into , their faith in the father , son , and holy ghost , which was christs first creede that made churches . had not the members of our reforming church this knowledge ? where was the seede of our many hundreds of martyrs ? and where is these mens charities ? even the darkest times that our church hath suffered hath preserved this knowledge , and the profession of looking to bee saved by iesus christ the sonne of the living god , which is that rocke against which the gates of hell shall not prevaile . yea but ( they say secondly ) , put case they had this knowledge , yet they entred not into our visible church by covenant . indeed it is lawfull for christians , that have beene disjointed in the service of god , to make covenants betwixt themselves to serve him better . so asa and his people entred into a covenant to seeke the lord god of their fathers , yea , and they sware unto the lord. so wee reade of the princes , levites , and priests , that made a sure covenant , writ it , and sealed it . surely , this was a good way to tye up the unruly colts that were among them to gods service , if they had but naturall conscience , and the prophets did not condemn it . from whence i conclude , that it is lawfull to helpe our selves in the service of god by any meanes not forbidden , though it bee not precisely commanded in the word : yet is their practise a binding law to us so far , as to unchurch us if wee doe it not ? how many glorious visible churches doe wee reade of in the scriptures , which never tooke this course , nor were bound unto it , and yet entred covenant with christ too when they were admitted members ? they were made christs disciples by teaching , and receiving the word , which is the word of reconciliation . and this word given to his people , is , gods covenanting with them , and his avouching them to bee his peculiar people : and their receiving it , is their covenanting with him , and taking god to bee their god. then doe they goe to the seales of the covenant ( the sacraments ) , according to christs rule , which doe knit us rogether in an holy league , for the service of christ , to our eternall good , if wee doe not deale falsly with god concerning his covenant . if therefore , they denie not ( as they cannot ) that our first members had the true word of god , and sacraments , neither can they deny that they have entred into the church by covenant . hee that is baptized , putteth on christ : and baptisme is christs seale of the covenant upon them that are baptized , as those that were circumcised , were said to bee borne to god by covenant : which if we breake , we renew againe so oft as we come to the supper of the lord. yea but ( they say thirdly ) , put case that they entred covenant with god by baptisme , yet were they forced to keepe his covenant , in a better way then they had done , by the edicts , lawes , and proclamations of princes . they were not voluntary servers of christ , as the members of a true visible church should be . put this case to them also , yee are the sonnes of your mother , who was forced by the authority of her father , or guardian , to marrie your father : will yee say , that yee are bastards , not lawfull heires , or not true members of the family , because your mother was not married to your father freely , and willingly ? with what will soever shee was married , shee afterward lived in love , faithfulnesse , and obedience , and brought forth much fruit unto him . such may bee the case of a true visible church . shee may come to christ her husband , as a beare to the stake , being forced by conviction , and the power of naturall conscience ; she may bee drawne before shee runne after him ; yet afterward , shee remembring his love more then wine , may live in obedient love , and bring forth fruit unto god. though this bee a sufficient plea , yet let them know , that the first members of our church , in planting , were a willing people , for ought they know , and for our first members in reforming , i answere foure things . first , that the free acts of the leaders of the people are accounted by god as the acts of all ; when moses was bid tell the children of israel ; and hee did but tell the elders of israel , and they answered , all the people are said to answer together in them . so ioshuah called twelve choise men , out of every tribe a man , to carry twelve stones , and the children of israel , whom they represented , are said to do it . so asa tooke away the altars of the strange gods , and brake the idols , and cut downe the groves willingly ; and though hee commanded his people , and ruled by power , yet they obeying , are said , to seeke the lord ▪ and to prosper . thus far then , our first reformers were willing members ; they were willing in their guides and leaders , who willingly put themselves on to advance the kingdome of christ . secondly , not onely the governours , but the people were willing covenanters in generall body . it was done by the free proceedings of the house of parliament , where knights , and burgesses , were chosen by the free vote of the commons : and they ( being knowne to be able men ) doe refer themselves to their determination in the lord. what though some submitted out of feare of power ? thus , many in mardocai's time became iewes for feare , yet were so accounted . and many in hezekiahs time were brought by postes , as it were , by the sound of the trumpet , to the passeover , and yet their service was accepted . thirdly , put case the lawes , and proclamations of our princes forced some to bee members , who were willing to doe worse . it was not in the first planting of a church , where faith is not to be forced ( the kingdome of heaven suffers violence , but faith suffers not compulsion ) : but it was in the reforming of a church ; and in such a case god did blesse the compulsion of hezekiah , and the people were not rejected , as no members , though they were not purified according to the purification of the sanctuary . did not manasseh , after hee was come home to god , command iudah to serve the god of israel ? did not iosiah cause and make his people to stand to his covenant to serve , even to serve the lord our god ? is it not lawfull for good princes in reforming to follow these examples ? may not they binde their people some way , by oath , bond , subscription , or taking , and giving hands for better performance of duties of religion ? why may not our good princes follow those old patternes in reforming ? they say , because it is not found in the new testament . bee it so : yet it is found in the old testament , and not condemned in the new , nor any other order prescribed in such a case . surely , seeing in this new devised way , they will bee tried by none but the new testament , they shall be cast at this bar in their own courses . let them give but one text to prove any man called , or ordained to a pastours office in the church , by a company of private men alone , and i shall give them another text to prove any thing they please , i can yet reade of none but apostles , evangelists , and the eldership that made ministers there . if they can shew no text , i am sure they have no such pastours as they ought : but i am sure we have true kings , who have power in reforming , to compell wicked people to be better then they are , because they beare not the sword for nought . yea , but ( say they lastly ) put case they entred upon necessarie knowledge ; that they made a covenant in receiving the word , and sacraments ; that they were voluntarily , or forced , yet lawfull professours , when they stated a visible church : yet they were ( many of them ) baptized , when they were the seed of them that were not members of the visible church . conceive it thus . if a man be a member of the visible church , then his children have a right to baptisme , before they actually professe the faith , by vertue of that promise , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seede . but if hee bee not a member of a visible church , ( as a iew , turke , or pagan ) then have they no right to it , before they actually confesse , as the eunuch did . now the brownists ( keeping a great coile about the jointing of members into a church , as if it were all one to be jointed into the body of christ , coapted , and fitted to our head christ , for life and salvation , and to bee a member of the visible church , in outward communion and fellowship of christ , for the outward priviledges of the church ) they have ( i say ) espied , among many others , this one crime , in the dutch , and french churches , that they baptize the seede of them that are no members of the visible church : much more , when they looke upon us , whom they account not members of a true visible church , must they quarrell ( if all bee of his mind ) , if our first reformers be not members of a true visible church , and yet their children are baptized before they are of yeares to professe their owne faith . sect . 9. a question by the way , about baptizing bastards of impenitent christians . i confesse , i never yet talked with any brownist about this particular ; yet because i finde too many conscious people , hanging after forraigne novelties , and gazing upon ( with admiration ) the membring , and dismembring in visible churches : who when they heare of christians lawfully begotten children denied baptisme , beginne to wonder that christians bastards should be admitted . therefore to cleare both ( as god shall in able ) i shall labour to satisfie others ( as i have done some ) in this question . whether bastards are baptizable while their mothers are in their sinnes of adultery , or fornication , and whether men ought not to stay their baptisme , untill they be reconciled to god , in open church , which is publickely scandalized by her fact , and from which she hath dismembred her selfe by her misdeed ? in this i finde two questions inwrapt in one : whether bastards are baptizable ? and whether men ought not to stay such baptisme , till the harlot bee reconciled to god , and this be done in the open church scandalized , from which by her fact she hath cut herselfe off by her sinne ? i shall first labour to state these questions , and then the cases will more easily appeare . the estate of the first may be thus set . by bastards , such children are meant , as come not into the world by lawfull acts of marriage : and by baptizable is meant , such as have a right to the sacrament of baptisme in the church . and the question is not , whether bastards in generall are baptizable ? for so it is certaine that all are not , as the bastards of iewes , turkes , and pagans , who have no right to baptisme but by personall confession . but the question is , whether the bastards of the professours at large , in a christian church , which is in covenant with god ( for the outward priviledge of the church at least ) have right to baptisme ? of these the inquiry is , because in the second part of this question , is spoken of the mothers reconciling to god , in the open church offended . the state of the second question must be laid by considering two things : 1 the persons enquired of· 2 the duty of these persons . the persons enquired of , are men : and it is too generall a terme . for it cannot meane , any men of that assembly , where such a bastard is presented : for they have no authority ( knowne to mee from scriptures ) to meddle in any censure ecclesiasticall . these onely are to meddle heere , who are sent , and inspired with delegated service and mininistery from christ , either immediately , or mediately . neither can it meane the pastors , and deputed teachers of that assembly : for they have but a dependent authority according to the lawes of eutaxy , and good order in the church . presbiters under bishops , bishops under synods , synods under councels , and councels under the word of christ in plaine scriptures . our highest appeale is to our head christ iesus . for if ordinary pastours had such independent power in such cases , thinke whether it would not set up a pope in every parish , especially considering that wee have neither precept , nor president , in all the new testament , of such power given to any assembly , or presbiter , that ever i could yet finde . by men ther●fore , wee must understand the publick governours of that church , that is , the king , prince , state , bishop , and convocation , by their lawes ecclesiasticall for the good of the church . the question enquires of those , in respect of order , decree , and command : and of these in respect of canons , and executions accordingly . thus i take up the minde of the question , or else i know not what it would have . next , consider in the question , the duty of these persons , whether they ought to stay bastards from baptisme ? by this , two things may bee meant : denying baptisme ; but no man would utterly exclude such : and suspending baptisme ; and of this is the question : for it makes a double limitation ; first , till the harlot be reconciled to god. in this , the question meddles not with the judgement of god , who by his sure omniscience , knowes who are reconciled to him , and who not : nor with the judgement of the conscitnce of any reconciled persons , who by the assurance of faith or hope , may believe , or hope , that they are reconciled ; for this is gods tribunall : but with the judgement of the church , which under the sacrament of charity ( as it was termed of old ) by the harlots words , and actions may judge the best : and so this parr of the question is utterly void . for i never yet knew harlot but would confesse , and lament her sinne , and promise amendement before her bastard was baptized , and so give a ground for charitable hope . the second limitation is , till shee bee publickely reconciled to the church scandalized , from which by her fact shee hath cu● her selfe off . in which foure things are to bee pondered . first , the manner of her reconciling , which is required by the question ; in the open church . but what if she be ready to be swallowed up of sorrow ? shall wee not have the church to apply her power of mitigating indulgence ? shall we have nothing but extreamitie ? did god allow in the time of the law , that if an oxe did kill a man by the masters negligence , there might bee a commutation of punishment , from death to a ransome of mony , and will wee in no case have a mitigation of rigour from the open church , when yet justice may bee done , and that , with more good sometimes , both upon the partie , and others by charitable and indulgent acts ? secondly , the persons offended , are the church scandalized : by which the question meanes not the catholik , or nationall church ; for with both these the harlot may be friends still ; because they cannot take notice of every such fact , to bee offended by it : but the particular church and assembly united by god , and the lawes for the professing of saving truth . thirdly , consider then the danger of the harlot offending ; shee hath cut her selfe off , as the question implyes : but consider how she hath cut her selfe off ? and how farre ? shee hath not cut her selfe off by excommunication ecclesiasticall : for that is not in her power , and the church hath not yet proceeded against her : but by excommunication morall , by the wickednesse of her fact , which makes her censurable both heere and hereafter , in an high degree , if she repent not heartily . but how farre hath she cut her selfe off ? not from the visible church ; for she still professeth saving faith ; and would not but have the benefit of it for much : yea , shee still hath the character of baptisme , which is the outward marke of a christian : for otherwise upon her reconciliation she should be baptized againe , which surely the question intends not : but from two things in the visible church : first , from the inward comforts of christianity , till shee repent unto life : for ( i thinke ) it will not bee denyed , but that shee may doe this , before ecclesiasticall indulgence bee applyed unto her upon outward submission . and secondly , from publike communion with the visible church in some holy things , when she is proceeded against , till shee hath outwardly , in the congregation confessed her fault ( if neede require ) and promised amendment . in some holy things ( i say ) for i answer , none will deny her a right to reade the word of god , or to heare it read , to heare good exhortations and instructions , or to pray in private , which yet are the acts of a true christian . fourthly , consider the remedy of this danger , ( her reconciling to the church : ) by which we must not vnderstand , her returning into favour , by communion with the church in repentance unto life , and the faith of the elect ; for no man , or men , can judge certainely of these : but onely returning into favour by communion with the church in profession to have them . the question being thus stated , wee may the more easily conceive and give satisfying answers . to the first , whether bastards are baptizable ? i answer , the bastards ( as other children ) of iewes , turkes , and infidels are not : but the bastards of professors of christianity are , for these two reasons . first , because that which gives right unto the parents , gives right unto the children in the parents right ( for when the parents professed the faith of christ , the apostles did baptize them and their children , if any such were in the houshold : ) but profession of christianity gives right to the parents : for if men doe but professe their faith in the trinity , they are baptizeable : and therefore the bastards of christans are baptizeable . secondly , because the children of christians are baptizeable : but bastards of christians , are the children of christians ; for otherwise such parents should be rebaptized : therefore they are baptizeable . to the second question , whether men ought to stay their baptisme , till the harlot be reconciled unto god in the open church ▪ which is justly scandalized by her fact , and from which shee hath dismembred herselfe by her misdeed ? i answere , first to the grounds of the question in limitations : and next to the question it selfe . to the grounds of the question , i answer two things . first , that her fact hath not so dismembred her as to make her no christian . for let me aske , doth a vaste sinne so cut off from christ , that it doth unchristian a man or woman ? i doe not aske this to move any man or woman to flatter themselves in such a case . for such have just cause to doubt whether they are univocall members of saving christ : neither can they know by assurance of faith , whether ever they shall rise againe : because god saies to no man , sinne , and my grace shall helpe thee up . but i aske it , to shew the hope and charity of the church , about such wicked professours of christianity . besides , if her fact had made her no christian , shee should be rebaptized : but shee hath still the character of baptisme , and hath right to the inward comforts of it , if she repent : and so , in her state , and right , her bastard hath a right also . secondly , i answer , that her scandalizing of the church , where shee lives , doth not deprive her selfe , or her childe , of the right of christianity . as for her childe , the scandall was given by the mother , not that , who is a sufferer in the shame of the sinne , not a doer in the worke of it . as for her selfe , though her scandall deprive her of the best comforts of christianity , till she repent : yet not of a right to some of the outward priviledges of christianity , whereof the baptisme of her childe is one . and this the rather , because an harlot amongst christians , having a bastard and not professing her selfe sorrowfull , and that shee doth believe in christ , is not ( for ought i know , or have heard ) to bee found what ever her heart be . now , secondly , to the question it selfe , i answer , that no man either in that church , or over that church , ought lawfully to stay bastards from baptisme . because they that are in the covenant of christianity ( as those that are to be regenerated , though not yet actually regenerate ) are not to be stayed from baptisme : but the bastards of christian harlots are in such a covenant of christianity : therefore they ought not to bee staied from it . that it is thus with christian harlots appeares thus : because if a christian church be in the covenant of christianity , then all the members , and matter of it are : therefore the church of corinth is called the body of christ , in respect of the covenant of christianity , though fearfull wickednesse was acted in that church about word , sacraments , and conversation . but such bastards are some of the members of a christian church , therefore they ought not to bee staied from baptisme . that they are mēbers of a a christian church , appeareth thus , because all that are within the jurisdiction and judgement of a christian church , are the members and matter of it , for ( saith paul ) what have i to do to judge them that are without ? but bastards of christians are within the judgement and jurisdiction of the church : for else , why were they circumcised of old , and some way censured to certaine generations ? and why in the christian church have susceptors ( or god-fathers ) beene appointed for them , to undertake for their education ? therefore are they members of a christian church . secondly , the proceeding of abrah●m ( the father of the faithfull ) in his house when he was called into the covenant of circumcision , ought to bee a president to christian churches in the covenant of baptisme . but ishmael was circumcised as wel as isaack , though agar bro●ght h●m forth unto bondage , if then no men ought lawfully so to doe , surely such bastards are not to be denyed baptisme finally , or to be suspended from it in due time , understanding it as is before said . thus have i answered these questions . but i know , others have answered otherwise : let it therefore bee heard and examined . some have answered negatively , that bastards ought not to be baptized untill their mothers be reconciled to god openly in the church , in the which her child is to be baptized ; let us therefore . 1 heare their reasons for their opinions . 2 how they maintaine it again● ob●ections made . their reasons are two . first , because all they , and onely they may be baptized , which either doe actually beleeve , or are of beleeving parents : but bastards in infancy , doe not beleeve actually , nor are of beleeving parents : therefore they are not baptizable . but i answer to the argument , and application of it . the argument is imperfect : for what if bastards bee such as whose parents are unknowne ? in such a case the learned say well , if they shall be borne among christians , the law of charity is to repute thē for the children of christians , if there be not a just cause to presume otherwise . therefore the argument should runne thus . all they , and onely they should bee baptized , which either doe actually beleeve , or which are of beleeving parents , or in charity may bee presumed so to bee . to the application of it to bastards , i say ; none will resolutely affirme , that christian bastards while they are infants , are neither actuall beleevers , nor of beleeving parents , nor may bee presumed so to bee : will they hold , that in the act of adultery there is an utter falling from the covenant of christianity ? have they not read of taking the members of christ , and making them the members of an harlot ? or will they hold that the act of whoredome doth utterly extinguish baptismall grace in the parents ? i thinke they will not ; i know they cannot . no corporation doth cast off their members from their enfranchisements before triall , convictions , and judgement : much lesse will christ . yet they say two things in their owne defence . first , that bastards beleeve not actually . indeede it were too lofty to say that they beleeve as men of yeares who are wrought upon by the word , and prayer . but were it not very harsh to say they are infidels ? are they not members of a church in the outward covenant of christianity as well as others ? have they not read of the seedes of faith , in such ? or that christ speaking of little ones , saith , they beleeve in his name ? it may be , he speakes of such as were admitted already into the covenant of circumcision : but may not they judge charitably of bastards , in such a case , seeing ye see , or may see ( in the issue ) bastards to live graciously in the bosome of the church ? if they know none such , yet i doe ; blessed be god. secondly , they say that the fathers and mothers of bastards are unbeleevers : because they are unjust , they worke from the flesh , they are shut out of the kingdome of heaven , and they provide not for their owne : and thus they reason . they that are unjust , bring forth the fruits of the flesh , shut themselves out of the kingdome of heaven , and provide not for their owne as they ought , are unbeleevers . but fathers and mothers of bastard are such : therefore they are unbeleevers . to this i answer two waies . first in generall , by using their own reason layed otherwise thus . they that are unjust , live in the flesh , shut themselves out of heaven & proprovide not for their own are unbeleevers . but many christian parents of children lawfully begotten are such : therefore they are unbeleevers i confesse there is some difference to be put here betwixt parents of lawfully begotten children , & parents of bastards , because those doe it in an act of justice and goodnesse , and that by gods ordinance if they doe it as they ought ; and these doe it in an act of impudence and injustice . but if an act of injustice and uncharitablenesse doth of it selfe , make them unbeleevers , as they are such , then it reacheth to the one as well as to the other . but there is no good religion bids us to thinke that an act of injustice in the parents should put a child both into the state of sinne ( in the neglect of a sacrament , ) and into the state of punishment ( in being deprived of it ) when yet the child hath not followed , nor countenanced the parents wickednesse . secondly , i answer in particular to the argument , and first to the ground of it , that such wicked christians are not so unbelievers as to bee quite unchristianed , and so to be deprived , in themselves , and their bastards of the sign and seale of the covenant . there are two sorts of unbelievers ; unbelievers in part , rnd unbelievers in whole : unbelievers in part , and in some particulars , when the word of god is not so received of them , as the rule of faith and obedience in some particular parts of it as it ought . of these there are to many amongst us , and all christian churches . from hence proceedes that , they not believing the word of chastity , are unchaste , the word of justice , are unjust , and the word of care for children , are carelesse , and the like , vnbelievers in whole , when christianity is dead in them at the roote ; as when the whole saving word is rejected . this is that unbeliefe which doth unchristian a man and woman , and if it be finall , is a state of paganisme . though ( it may be ) there be such parents in the eyes of god ; ( yet i thinke ) few or none are such among christians in the eies of the church . they will all professe to believe in christ , and when they are convincingly moved , will lament their sins , and promise to doe so no more . to the application of the argument to fathers and mothers of bastards in a christian church , that they are such , is an unsufficient plea. and whether they bee so , to the cutting of them off from christianity in generall , and making their bastards unbaptizable , judge by what is said , and what followeth . secondly , they give another reason thus . they that have no grace already conferred , are not to bee made partakers of the signe and seale of grace . but bastards have not grace conferred , they neither actually believing , nor being borne of christian parents : and therefore they are not to bee baptized , i answer , they meane not ( i thinke ) the inward grace of actuall faith , such as abraham had ; for then , why was ishmael circumcised ? but they meane the outward grace of having right to the signe and seale of the covenant ; and thus their application to bastards is false : understand their argument thus . they that have not the outward grace of right to the signe and seale of the covenant , are not baptizable . what though abraham had true actuall faith when hee submitted to circumcision , doth it follow that all that succeed him in circumcision should have so also ? prove that and turne anabaptists : take away circumcision and baptisme from all infants . therefore i deny the application , that bastards of wicked christians have not the grace of right to baptisme . they have a right to receive that right whereto their parents have a right to convey : and certainely these have a right to convey the right of baptisme to their children ; both as they are believers of the word of salvation by christ , and as they professe to stand in such a way , though they are wicked and ungodly in particular acts . they have a right also to the offers of grace in a christian church , and so have a right to baptisme : for heerein god offereth grace by way of signe , and seale of gods covenant . to understand this , conceive these two points . first , the difference of the offer of grace to them within , and to them without the church . they without have a right to it in the word : for i may preach the word to a iew , turke , heathen , if hee come within my limit , and will heare . but they within have a right unto it in the word , and sacraments , according to christs commission . secondly , the priviledge they have by it , is , not to bee graffed into the body of christ , according to the election of grace , but according to the profession of the gospel , and the state of the church visible heere . thus their reasons are voide from proving that bastards are not baptizable . now marke what reasons they make , and finde against them , and what they answer . first , some of the bastards predecessours objection . 1 have beene believers , and this is sufficient to admit them to baptisme , according to the promise made to believers , and to their posterity . this is a poore objection , thus propounded . for what iew , turke , or pagan is there , who may not pretend that some of their predecessours have beene believers , if the gospell have beene preached thorough the world . they must be predecessours in a christian church , in outward covenant with god. but let us see their answer . they give a text to prove the contrary , and require a text to oppose them . their text is saint paules , who speaking of immediate parents , saith , except one of them are believers , their children are uncleane , but now ( by the faith of one ) they are holy . they will not prove ( i hope ) that believers children are holy by an infused , or derived holinesse from them : for from them they are the children of wrath , but onely that they have a foederall holinesse , by which they have a right to bapti●me . neither will they prove that it is necessary to a childs baptisme , to have immediate predecessours such believers , as doe in all things contrary to such sinnes as doe wound or waste a good conscience . it is enough i● one be a believet , that is , a doctrinall christian , though like the worst in the church of corinth . if hee bee a iew , the apostle calls him circumcision , and if hee professe faith in christ , hee is a christian for his owne , and his childes baptisme . what though the apostle speakes of immediate parents there , where hee speakes of a church newly converted to the faith from heathenisme , and so to be a church that wanted predecessours before times ? may wee not therefore make use of other texts more comfortable for us ▪ who have had the gospel a long time , and that , sealed with such christian bloud ? if now they require a text to oppose them ; let them take that , the promise is to you , and to your children . but they answer , that the unbeliever , and his children , are not the posterity of the believer ; i say , yes , if they be members of a visible church . those wicked kings of iudah , that were idolaters , were the posterity of abraham , and david , and had right to the promi●es made to them , yea , and to the ever blessed messias , who descended from them . if they repented not , they had no inward comfort from him , yet had they outward right unto him , by vertue of the promises made to abraham and david . but they say , can uncleane bastards be the seed of the believing ? i answer , that i approve that in these termes they expresse hatred to the sinne : but in that they forget a foederall cleannesse in uncleane christians children , by vertue of gods promise to believers foregoing them , they goe the right way , not onely to fill he i with bastards , but with true begotten children , whose immediate parents are ( too often ) guilty of greater sinnes then whoredome , though that bee damnable enough . secondly , they finde another objection ; objection . 2 god hath promised to shew mercy unto a thousand generations , to them that love him and keepe his commandements . therefore bastards of wicked christians are baptizable . the reason should have been put thus : god hath promised to shew mercy to a thousand generations of israelites in outward communion with him : for otherwise it followes not , that the bastards of christians are baptizable . but what answer they ? they say solution . 1 three things ; first they say , it followes not : because bastards are not the generation of them that love god , and keepe his commandements . take heed : was not davids child got of the wife of vrijah the generation of them that loved god at all , though in that act david loved him not ? nor was ishmael the generation of abraham that loved god , though in that act ( out of ignorāce not wholy excusing ) abraham loved him not ? yes , as iosiah was the generation of them that loved god , though manasseh his father had long and fearefull fits of cruell idolatry : so in this case , bastards may bee the generation of them that love god , though their immediate solution . 2 parents in those accursed acts , loved him not . secondly , they say , that it is one thing to say , that god will shew grace and favour to one , and another thing to say , that he is already in grace , as hee must bee that is baptized . i have answered before , that the bastards of christians have the grace of right to baptisme , and that is sufficient in this case : for otherwise , ishmaels right to solution . 3 circumcision cannot bee found . thirdly , they say , that that promise of god in the second commandement may have a double sence , first , that god will extend his mercy to many ages on them that love him , when they are come to age , and capeable of his love by practise . but thus they make them that love god to bee the posterity , when it is plaine , the promise was made to them that received the law then , and were to continue in the profession of saving truth , and so to all others in such a case . secondly , that god will shew little children favour for their fathers and mothers sake to a thousand generations . but this they thinke , cannot bee meant , neither in deede is , as i conceive yet then adde a third sence , which they forget , that god will shew the posterity , that continues in the profession of his name , favour ; not for their parents sake , but for his owne sake , for his promise sake , which he makes to them that love him , and that , for many generations ; and then i reason thus . that which keepes the generations to come , who live as professors in the visible church in covenant with god , that gives infants of such parents right to the seale of the covenant , of which they are capable . but gods promise to faithfull parents in the visible church , keepes such generations to come in covenant with god : and therefore have they right to the scale of the covenant , whereof they are capable . now whereas they aske , whether all children , or some have right ? i answer , all , to the grace of right to baptisme . thirdly , they bring forth another objection , objection . 3 that if bastards bee withheld from baptisme , there will be no difference put betwixt bastards and their parents . they answer here what if there be no difference put ? and whatsoever the objection bee , ( for i know not who ownes it ) they runne here a strange course . out of a desire to honour the seventh commandement , they dishonour the first , and third . let adultery bee abominable ( because whoremongers and adulterers god will iudge ) yet let god have his honour in hating infidelity above whoredome . let not the scripture bee wronged ; but thoroughly weigh their words . they say first , that bastards and their parents are all infidels : what ? though their parents bee christians ? yes surely , say they ; because saint paul saith they are worse then infidels . let them consider , because they are worse then carefull infidels , in not caring for their children ( which is against the fift and eight commandements ) are they worse then infidels in infidelity ? they are christians , yet worse , and better , worse in disgracing their posterity : yet better in beleeving still the doctrine of christianity , and so giving a right to baptisme . but they say further , that parents of bastards are worse in state then turkes , and they would prove it from a text of finall apostacy : but what proofe this can be against an act of whoredome ( in the passion of lust , clowding reason in an heate ) i cannot tell ? let a turk be a turk , but no worse ; and let a damnable harlot be an harlot , but no worse . her state is bad enough to bring her to hell without objection . 4 repentance , but not to exclude her child from baptisme , if she be a christian at large . fourthly , they meete with another objection , that bastards are borne , & the church is their mother ; therefore baptisme ought not to be denyed them . it should have beene put thus ; they are borne of christian parents , who by profession are members of the church , and so the church is their mother , and the mother of their seede ; and therefore to bee baptized . but in their answer , they fall into two errors . first , that the church is a company of true beleevers whō god bath chosen to eternall life ; which church i pray ? not that whereof new borne bastards of christian parents are by profession members . the holy catholike church , and proper body of christ , may be defined by beleevers in that sence of it : but that the visible church , in the outward face of it , is thus defined , wants warrant in the word of christ . thus the church is a number of persons united according to the word . in the profession of saving truth , whether they are elect , or no. their second error is , that bastards are infidels ; for this can not bee conceived of bastards of christian parents , as is before proved . objection . 5 fiftly , they yet finde more arguments to oppose them : bastards may belong to gods election , and therefore are not to be denyed baptisme : it should have beene thus set : they may belong to gods election as members of the visible church : for otherwise election may belong to jewes and turkes , who yet are not baptizable without personable profession . but they answer thus , it must not be said , they may belong , but they doe belong to gods election : for otherwise the signe is not to bee administred unto them . doe they consider how thus they take away baptisme from all men , women , and children ? the lord knowes who are his and the church reaches but to the judgement of charity . a judgement of certainety , to warrant us in these acts is no where granted , though baptisme bee deferred to the last gaspe for any thing knowne to me of faith . objection . 6 sixtly , they further finde another argument against them ▪ that if bastards were denied baptisme , this were to make the children to beare the iniquity of their parents . but may they not rather thus dispute ? the children whose parents have a right to baptisme , have also a right to baptisme themselves , notwithstanding their parents personal faults ; for otherwise they shall be punished for parents faults : but the christian parents of bastar●s have a right to baptisme themselves : and therefore so have their children . they have a right of possession to the baptisme they have : and a right of expectation to the comfort of it , upon their faith and repentance . but take their answer , and they say foure things . first , that they do not meane to deny baptisme , but to defer it . indeed heere is some charity , but not enough , upon former grounds , againe they say , to defer baptisme is not to punish them for their parents sinnes ; yes that it is , if it bee meerely inflicted for parents sinnes . though the baptisme of children of believers is not to remunerate them for their parents righreousnesse , but a blessing upon them for gods promise sake to believers ; yet to deprive infants of it meerely for parents sake , is a punishment for parents sinnes . thirdly they say , that the prophet ezekiel speaks of actuall sinnes of great ones , and not of little childrens sinnes : and when they have sayd thus , they confesse it is not to the purpose heere . yet consider this point : can any man be guilty of the personal sinne of another , with whom onely there is communion of suffering , and not of sinning ? god forbid , and yet such is the case of infants from us . lastly they aske , what danger is it if bastards should bee unbaptized till they are of yeares ? i answer , there are dangers more then one . the danger of injustice at large , in withholding a right from them : yea , may i not call it sacriledge ? the danger of the neglect of this ordinance , which is the ordinary way of god for entrance into the visible church . and the danger of elevating baptisme above the mind of christ , who will have grace offered to all entring christians in it , yea , and given by way of promise and covenant which shall not faile to the receivers . lastly , they yet finde another reason against objection . 7 them : that though the parents of bastards have greatly sinned , yet we ought to judge charitably of them , and of their children . i lay it downe otherwise , thus : they who ( at least ) in the judgement of charity are christians , ought not to have their children kept from baptisme : but the parents of bastards in a christian church , are ( at least ) in the judgement of charity christians , ( for otherwise they were rebaptizable ) therefore their children ought not to be kept from baptisme . now take their answer . they say , the judgement of charity ought alwaies to be according to truth . this is true , of truth probably presumed . but what doe they assume ? that whoremongers and harlots cannot bee judged such while they are in their sinnes , which make them unbelievers . but say , i pray : is their sin properly against faith or manners ? is the bad working , or idlenesse of faith , in this sinne against manners , of such power , as utterly to roote out their doctrinall faith , which yet is sufficient to intitle their children to baptisme ? if they answer but these demands well , they shall see their owne errours . thus have i taken in by the way , a view of th●s question , which ●s not an every day doubt , and is usefull ●or the quieting of many godly persons in this particular ▪ and my conclusion is this . that in the reforming of our visible church , which consisted of visible christians before ( though much out of order ) wee , their seed , in their right , and so in a right of our owne were more purely baptized , and so made true members of our true visible church , whatsoever brownists plead to the contrary . for as bastards of christian parents have a right to bee baptized into their parents christianity : so much more had wee into ours . our predecessours had a state whereof they repented ; and so have these of which they should . if neither of them repented as they should , yet were both of them true christians : and so both their posterities were rightly baptized , and made true members of a true visible church : i● not for such governement as brownists dreame of , yet to be governed as members of gods house , for conviction , or conversion to life . sect . 10. brownists third exception against us about the head of our church . wee having now done what the brownists do mean by a true church and the falsitie of it ; and with the entrance into it : wee are now come unto their third exception , taken from the head of a true visible church . they finde from time to time our kings to interpose their authority over every particular assembly in our church , for the keeping of them in pious , and peaceable wayes , according to the lawes of god and our church , and common-wealth : and because they fansie no visible churches , but particular congregations , which must bee fully furnished from christ , with power of governing themselves : and they doe perceive withall that the supreame authority of a king over churches , doth ( according to kingly duty ) hinder their erecting of new waies , and tie them up to observe the laudable customes of the church : therefore ( as if they willingly subscribed to the speech of gallio , that wicked deputy of achaia , if it were a matter of wrong , or wicked lewdnesse , o yee iewes , reason would that i should beare with you , but if it be a question of words , and names , and of your law , looke yee to it , for i will be no judge of such matters ) , they cry out , wee have no head but christ : he shall rule over us : we will wait upon him onely : but you have another head , and that is the king , whose lawes you follow for government of the church , and upon whom ye do depend for building , or pulling downe whatsoever christs law saith . now , to pricke and open this blister , consider , 1 that christ is the head of the catholicke church , 2 that christ is the head of particular churches . 3 that christ is the head of our church . 4 that the headship of the king , doth not hinder but helpe this , and that according to christs word . that christ is the head of the catholicke church , no christian will deny , or if hee doe , he will bee convinced by scriptures , which teach him to bee the head of the body , even his church . he hath in him most perfectly , whatsoever may be for the life and salvation of his church . he hath all things subjected to him for the behoofe of his church . he takes up all debates , suites , quarrels , and controversies betwixt god and his church , as a counsellour , advocate , yea , husband for his wife . hee is the prince of our salvation , the proper fountaine of all spiriruall life and governement . no head is such an head as hee is : politicall heads give the influence of civill favour ; oeconomicall heads of houshold , and wedlocke favours : but this all-sufficient spirituall head , of saying favours , spiritual blessings in heavenly things . this therefore is certaine , that thousands in this catholicke church doe runne into folly , rebellion , and blasphemy . into folly ; because they doe things without the generall , or particular direction of christ : christ is not in all their counsels . into rebellion , because they doe things against the direction of christ : let christ say what he will , they will do what they list . into blasphemy , because they think not christs counsel worth the while , s● long as they can shift without it : it is good when they are sicke , but if well , it is but as elias to ahab , a troubler of israel . these may be in the catholicke church , they are not of it , because christ is not their head by infusion of grace . secondly , it is true also , that he is the head of particular churches , and visible assemblies . therefore the church of corinth is called the body of christ , and members in particular . this church ( as any other particular church ) may be considered two wayes : in it selfe , and so it was a body : with reference to other churches , and so it was a member of the catholick church . but consider it both , or either of these wayes ; if it bee the body of christ , if a member of his body , or if both , christ is the head of it : hee is in the midst of the seven golden candlestickes . therefore also the church of ephesus , is called the house of god : and as in an house there is an head , the husband is the wifes head ; so , but more transcendently , is christ the head of every particular house or church . for god hath set his sonne over his own house , and our high-priest is over the house of god. this is t●ue . but thirdly , say the brownists , what is that to us ? christ is not our head . yes , christ is the head of our church of england . for doe but consider 1 wherein christs headship stands ? 2 how hee useth and exerciseth it ? christs headship doth stand in providing fit meanes for the gathering and enlarging of his visible church , or churches , and making them effectuall . there is a foundation to bee layd , which properly is christ , and for , and from him the prophets , and apostles . there are builders , yea master builders , as well as others , to bee provided . there are materials to be at hand , saints by calling some of which grow up to be lively stones , a spirituall house , that they may be gods building . these faithfull ones must be laied and coupled together , as by joints , till they grow into an holy temple , for the habitation of the lord , by the spirit . now , that this may be done , christ is the principal agent , he adds unto his church , that they may come to the father by him . and withall hee provides his word , that they might believe , and ministers , by whom they may doe it : and the sacraments , that they may bee baptized into his death , and have the communion of the bloud of christ . hee rests not heere , but to make them effectual , in the use of these means , hee comes amongst these citizens with the saints , and grants to those that by grace receive the spirit which is of god , repentance unto life , and faith to purifie their hearts : and so hee addeth to the church from day to day , a great number that believe and turne unto the lord. but for those that come in to the voyce of the word , and supper of the gospel in word and sacraments , and have simon magus , iudas , hymeneus , alexander , and demas his heart , if the conviction of themselves , and the conversion of others , and their perseverance doe them no good , he shewes sometimes what they deserve , by fearefull judgements , and the censures of the church , but hee will shew it in full power when the great day of separation comes . now looke , ( in the feare of god ) whether our ever blessed iesus christ bee not thus our head . have wee not ( thorough grace ) the word of god , gifts , ministery , and sacraments from christs rule ? say the brownists , ye have not all christs ordinances , yee want his discipline . to that i shall speake in due place : in the meane time , put case it were true ; yet were it a true visible church , though not a perfect one . that is an ordinance for the comely and well being , not for the being of the church . but it lies upon them to prove that , what they say we want , are christs ordinances , and branches or his kingdome . this they never can doe by the undoubted word of christ . besides , hath not christ our head , in the use and exercise of these blessings manifested his effectuall power ? how many iniquities are subdued , and sinnes cast into the depthes of the sea ? what place is there , where we shall not find the serpents head broken ? some have beene in their ordinary businesses , as the woman of samaria , and have come off with the bells of the horses , pots in ierusalem , and iudah ? as well as pots in the lords house , engraved with holinesse unto the lord. some have been disciplined with the misery of the h●sks of swine , and have beene translated out of the kingdome of darkenesse , into the kingdome of gods deare sonne . some have heard and read good things to scoffe and cavill at them , but have been suddenly changed from glory , to glory , as by the spirit of the lord. some have breathed out the stinking breath of sinne , as saul , and others have seene the heates of persecutions , and they have returned home to call upon the name of the lord iesus , both theirs and ours . yea , and some have seene others fall away from the faith of christ , and by the preaching of christ , have met with graffing in , the riches of the gentiles , reconciling , and salvation . and though with christ they have had a sword sent , yet bonds in christ have beene famous , and the brethren in the lord have waxed confident , and bold to speake the word without feare . thus hath it beene with our blessed church : the kingdome of heaven hath suffered violence , and the violent have taken it by force . but the ministery of the brownists hath had no such communion , and influence , with , and from christ our head ; one of a city , two of a tribe , heere a little , and there a little , doth not answer , in a continuall course from christ hither , the power of christs intercession , for the heathen for his inheritance , and the uttermost part of the earth for his possession . but ( say the brownists ) wee have other heads besides christ . i say we have no other mysticall head beside christ ; but onely politicall heads to keepe peace , and to see that every person , within their compasse , doe his duty religiously . thus the husband is the wives head ; the honorable man the head ; saul , the head of the tribes ; and moses chose men of courage , and made them heads over the people . but ( say they ) our king is our head , so as to rule in matters of religion . this is true : yet ( fourthly ) co●sider that this headship of the king doth not hinder ●ut helpe the advancement of christs headship , and that according to the word of christ . to cleare this , follow mee in two particulars . 1 that god hath given a power of governement to the church for the well ordering of it selfe . 2 that christ hath made kings prime officers to advance it in their places . as a man cannot well be without cloathes & good nourture : so neither can the church well be without the walles of government . she must also bee able to hold up her head against her enemies that shall say , by what authority dost thou these things , and who made thee a man of authority ? therefore hath christ given the particular , or generall rules of the word , to give a commission to the church to governe it selfe both in matters of substance , and in matters of circumstance . in matters of substance it hath power to governe it selfe , by ordering concerning the word , sacraments and prayer , so as to make them most comfortable : concerning church offices from time to time , and duties of charity : concerning the churches censures , publike assemblies , and oversight that all these bee done to the honour of christ , and advancement of religion . in matters of circumstances , it hath power to ordaine some outward rites and ceremonies for the outward carriage of gods worship . in the church of antioch there was a question a-about circumcision ( an uselesse , because dying ceremony then . ) the apostles , elders , and brethren at ierusalem ( by their consent and to encourage them in grace ) consulted about it , and delivered their judgement as a rule for the church to follow . they disanulled the ceremony of circumcision in those churches troubled : and establish others for a time , as abstaining from meate offered to idoles and bloud : which yet in themselves were but things indifferent . for meate commendeth us not to god : for neither if we eate , are we the better ; neither if we eate not , are wee the worse . againe in the church of corinth , there was a custome which grew to a publicke order in the church , of covering and uncovering , to signifie the headship and soveraignty of the man , and the subjection of the woman . this was countenanced by the apostle for the peace of the church , and other otders established . yea when he purposely treateth of acts of ordinary and extraordinary worship , hee gives them rules for the government and outward carriage of them , let all things bee done to edyfyng , and let all things be done decently and in order . thus in matters of substance hath christ made his church able to governe it selfe by particular rules , and in matters of circumstance by generall rules of edification , order , and decency . secondly , he hath also made kings prime officers to advance this governement in their places . that hee hath made them church-officers must be thus taken up . not strictly , as ministers , who have the highest hand under christ in the word , sacraments , and keyes of censures ecclesiasticall ▪ but largely , as those that are to care for good order about them . the offices of ruling and governing which paul speakes of , cannot be proved not to belong to them . they are ministers for our good : and our good is not chiefely civil ( i hope ) but spirituall . the apostle would have us pray for them , that we may not onely live in civill honesty , but in godlinesse , to bee countenanced , and established by them ? surely being members of church , they cannot but be chiefe ones too , as being christs lieftenants , who according to his promise are to bee nursing fathers , and their queenes nurcing mothers , who have their authority , breasts and duggs to reach the neede of all under them , to cherish and feede the church of christ according to his rules . it is true , they are servants to the church , and all good kings doe so acknowledge themselves : but not to be equals , or subjects to the members of the church ; but to make their prime authority serviceable to the advancement of the gospel for the salvation of christs people . hence is it that god hath given them a sword , that when they oversee the waies of the church within their reach , they may maintaine the rights of it , and by a coactive and coercive power suppresse the opposites : for without this they cannot be the ministers of god for our good . but ( say the brownists ) wherein stands this office of kings in the church , and over the members of it ? i answer , first , in calling of assemblies both civill and sacred . the two silver trumpets wer given to moses the magistrate : and least we should looke upon him as some extraordinary person , we see that right maintained by ioshua , david , solomon , iehoshaphat , hezekiah , and iosiah . secondly , in abolishing false worship , and establishing true , as we see in asa , iosiah , hezikiah . thirdly , in looking to the ministry , both that it bee sound and good ( as solomon , who thereupon deposed abiathar , and put sadock in his roome , as hee performed other acts of justice by royall authority , and iehosaphat who sent his princes to see that the priests and levites did teach the law of god in their cities : ) and that the ministery bee maintained according to the honours that god hath bestowed upon them , as solomon , hezekiah , iosiah , and nehemiah . fourthly , in causing the people to serve the lord , as hezekiah , and compelling all that were round in israel ( formerly professing gods religion ) to seeke the lord as iosiah and asa : their people were in the house of god committed to their charge , and they will see them to live according to the order set by god. lastly , in appointing consistories for the well ordering of the people ; as iehoshaphat , who set over the levites and priests , and chiefe of the families of israel , for the judgement and cause of the lord at ierusalem . all this is true ( say they ) of the jewish kings , who were types of christ : but wee reade of no such officers in the new testament . these men are liberall in making types of christs kingdome ; but i wonder whence they will prove it , what word of christ will they bring for it ? it is true , that in some things , some of the kings of iudah were types of christ ( as salomon in his name and building the the temple , and david in his troubles , and victories , and as hee was a king , and a prophet ) : but that all the kings of iudah were types in their governements over the church and state , even saul himselfe , when god made him head of the tribes , cannot bee proved for gods truth . and whereas they talke of no such officers in the new testament . say it bee so : there were no christian magistrates while those scriptures were in writing : and christ knew them to be sufficiently instructed in the old . this is a sure rule , that what is warranted in the old testament , and not contradicted in the old or new , may ( as the warrant goes , either by precept for things necessary , or paterne for things lawfull ) goe for currant still . but seeing the new testament saith , that wee must pray for kings , that by their authority wee may live in godlinesse , as by those that are over us for our good , spirituall and temporall , surely , they have warrant enough to use their power , over all their people to advance godlinesse , and the good of religion as well as justice . but ( say they ) it is for christ , not for kings , to appoint orders about his worship . this is true for substantiall orders ; for these thas are in the will of christ may not be altered : but for matters of circumstance , which concerne time , place , and outward forme , not determined , kings are bound , as supreame members of the church , over which they are , to use christian consistories to order them , so as may agree to the condition of his church , as well as the master of a family may command his steward to order his whole family , that the private worship in his family be not dishonoured . this ads both to the glory and strength of a church : to the glory of it , when kings are nourcing fathers ; and to the strength of it , when the power of a king is the churches , for the suppressing of vice , and maintenance of vertue . but then ( say they ) they may enjoine their owne inventions in stead of gods will. i answer , that the inventions of men are of two sorts : of things contrary to the word of christ , as worshipping of images , invocation of saints , forbidding marriage and meats , as these things which directly pollute persons , or times , or the like . these are impious : and it these are enjoined , christians must patiently suffer , and lovingly mourne , till in the day of judgment god fanne away the chaffe . but there are others , which in their owne nature are indifferent , neither commanded nor forbidden by god ; and of which christ saith , hee that is not against us , is with us . in these the christian magistrate hath a power for order , and uniformity . for if godly persons may bring up customes in the times of gods worship , as the jewes did their purim : and if christians may order what garments women may weare when they come to church ( which paul after allowed ) why ▪ may not the christian magistrate for the peace of his whole body ? but then ( say they ) this makes things arbitrary , and indifferent to become necessary . this is true : but you must conceive that a thing may bee said to bee necessary two waies ; necessary in it selfe , and necessary in the outward submission to the use of it . in it selfe , a thing indifferent cannot bee made necessary . it is alwaies as it is by nature , and conscience informed must so judge it , yet in the outward use , for the peace of the church , it may upon command , become necessary . after the death of christ , till the destruction of the temple , abstaining from things strangled , and bloud , circumcision , legall vowes , and purifyings were indifferent in themselves , ( for else the apostles would not have used them so ) : yet for the peace of some churches they were judged necessary to be yeelded in love ; and so may it bee in other things : yet the indifferent nature of things is not taken away , but the necessary use prescribed , for the peace of the church , upon better grounds then that wee should suffer our selves to be unsetled from royall power . but againe ( say they ) then kings may require such things as swarve from some holy patternes wee have in the scriptures ; and so by granting this governement , wee shall bee ill to helpe , i say , howsoever they use it , wee must grant what god hath given , as they are all the keepers of both the tables . if they use it well , thou must obey in the lord if ill , thy prayers and teares must be thy weapons , and thy body must suffer his penalties , and it is praise worthy for thee to suffer , not in a supposed good cause , but in a good cause without controversie ( which is not the case of sufferers in these dayes of peace and the gospel so farre as i know ) but for in●oynements , swar●ing from patternes . i finde this in scriptures , that godly men have swarved from patternes , not seconded by a perpetuall law , which might seeme to bind stron●ly . the jewes sate at the passover in christs t●me ( or rather lay leaning ) though the first gesture was standing or walking : and godly men and women communicate in the morning , and in a church , though the first patterne was otherwise : yea th●s is plaine , that gods ceremonies might in some cases be dispensed withall without sinne , much more may men bee unlosed from patternes which are not the examples of a law binding so . i know it will be said that the examples of gods people ( commended by the holy ghost ) are every whit of as great ●orce as a command . it is true , if they be examples of a rule : otherwise they shew things lawfull , but not things necessary . solomon indeede sayes , walke in the way of good men , and keepe the waies of the righteous . but good men , and righteous men are so with respect to gods law after which they walke ; otherwise they are not so , though b●ng so good , they may give a patterne of that which is lawfull , but not necessary . my conclusion is this , that the chur●h hath power to governe it se● ; by particular lawes in matters of substance , and by g●neral in the outward carriage of order , comlinesse , and edification . and when a king , as head of governement under christ , puts in ●his authority and power for seeing things carried within the churches of his kingdome according to these rules , hee is a prime officer under christ by christs owne promise , and appointment , whatsoever brownists can say against it . if they wil stil stand against it ( for few of them are found so humble as to search , and yeeld ) they cannot but know this , that in breaking the lawes of men that are not against christ , they sinne against conscience . and as magistrates are incouraged to bee great helps to religion by obedience , so , by the contrary , they are provoked to trouble . this therefore is a sure rule , that a christian that will not study to be quiet , in respect of the laws of men , what possible he can , is a singular burthen to the church in which he lives . sect . 11. brownists fourth exception against us , about the members of our church . wee are now come from the brownists meaning by a true church , and their entrance into , and head of a true church , to the members of a true church . heere they take on amaine , that the true members of a true church ought to be saints by calling ; whereas ours are a mixture of good and bad , penitent , and impenitent , to the pollution of the whole body : and that , therefore we are not a true church . but this still discovers strange weaknesse . for put case a man had never a good finger , nor hand , never a good toe , nor foote , never a haire on head , or beard ; or if he have all his members , yet he hath the palsie in one , the goute in another , blindenesse in another , deafenesse in another , botches in another , numnesse and deadnesse in another , is hee therefore no true man ? surely hee is a true man still , though a miserable one . so is it in a visible church ; many members may bee weake , and many wicked , as well as some truely gracious ; and yet , in the whole body a true church still . peter and iohn met with a beggar , at the gate of the temple called beautifull , who was faine to be carried , because he was lame from his mothers wombe , and yet the holy ghost calls him , a certaine man : and paul met with an apostolicall church in corinth , which was worse in many members then that poore cripple was , and yet hee called it a true church of god : for the god of truth admits of no falshood . but to cleare this more fully , i shall by ( gods assistance ) consider three things : 1 what they say true , of their owne members and ours . 2 what they say false , of the members of a true visible church . 3 that their dreame of pollution , is from their owne braines , not from christs ordinance . this they say truely , that the members of a true church are saints by calling . profession of saving truth ( as i have shewed ) makes such true members ; and all that so professe themselves ( though there be much chaffe among the wheate ) are such saints by calling . he that professeth so much knowledge , either actually , or foederally , as admits him to baptisme , hath put on christ . and he that hath put on christ , though as an elect vessell as paul , or as one in christ bearing no fruit , and therefore justly to be cut off , is certainely a saint by calling . there are two sorts of saints by calling : such as are sanctified by habituall infusions , and actual expressements ; and such as are so by baptismal profession , and many gifts of the spirit , and so by consecration to god. this may fall upon those that are justly rejected for their hypocrisie and wickednesse these two sorts , have ever and ever shall ( to the end of the world ) make up the true members of a true visible church . this secondly , they say falsely , that the members of a true visible church , are onely such saints as are so regenerated , as they have actual communion with christ in all the acts of saving grace . if they would sp●ake of the catholick church . it is the number of all faithfull people , which are united to christ by the union of the body , head , spirit , and faith of truth . by the first , all members are knit together with the head in one body : and so receive grace from the head according to the measure of everie member . by the second , it hath but one head : as the body is but one , so the head is but one , from whence it receiveth the grace of life . by the third , the whole church is directed and governed by one spirit , which is the spirit of sanctification . and by the fourth , the whole church receiveth the doctrine once given to the saints , which it cleaves unto for ever , that in this foundation , and love of union it may receive from christ all saving doctrine , with the comfortable fruits of it . if they would speake of this catholick church , let them draw up the members to that sanctitie which the word , and world , will affoord . nay , if they would speake of such members of the visible church , who shall from christ receive al spiritual blessings in heavenly things , and be jointed into the body of christ , till they come to a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of christ ; let them speake of all holinesse too , so far as our knowledge in part can reach unto in this kingdome of heaven upon earth . if further they would speak of such members as are fittest to beare rule in the visible church : surely though iudas be in as well as peter by christs his call , and yong timothy , can worke the worke of the lord as paul doth : yet surely they that are best , and of ablest gifts are fittest for highest places in the visible church . which because the brownists perceive , therefore they having set up to themselves a governement of all the members ( which they cannot make good ) they thinke not onely the holiest persons to bee the fittest , but the onely members of their visible churches . if lastly , they would speake of those that are the greatest comforts , and ornaments of a visible church : then surely , holy persons are . for davids eies runne over with water , when members in the church , as well as others kept not gods law : yea , and it is a fearfull reproach , and tending to corruption to them that favour it . but when they speake of such members onely in the visible church , who are so holy as they imagine , to whom if others joyne themselves in spirituall communion , they are unchurched ; this surely hath no ground , but in their owne braine . this is an undoubted rule , that it is gods will that a mixed company be invited to the wedding of christ , the feast of the gospell , which makes up a visible church . the wedding of christ is either compleate in heaven , or begunne in the church . to that in heaven , a mixed company is not invited , but conditionally , for no uncleane thing shall enter into the kingdome of heaven . to this in the church , a mixed company is invited , and thorough the power of the sweet word of grace , comes both to the word and sacraments ; as symon magus to baptisme , and the drunken and factious corinthians to the supper of the lord. and that it is gods will to invite a mixed company appeares by texts , examples , and reasons . the text is cleare in gods commission , goe ye into the high-wayes , and as many as ye finde , invite to the marriage : and also in his servants execution , they went , and gathered together all ▪ as many as they found , both good and bad . all these were members of this feast , till god came and made the separation : and when he did come , hee blamed not his servants for inviting , and guests for being in communion with the unworthy , but friend , how camest thou in hither ? but ( say they ) what is this kingdome of heaven ? is it not the world ? doth not christ himselfe so expound it in opening the parable of the tares ? the field is the world . it is true , hee saith the field is the world , but hee saith not the kingdome of heaven is the world . surely , the whole world lies in wickednesse , and is farre different from the kingdom of heaven in the church· therfore doth not christ say , the kingdome of heaven is like to the world , but it is like unto a man , this man is the son of man , who raiseth to himselfe a visible church heere . this he raiseth not in jury onely , but ( now the separation wall is broken downe ) in the world . here by vertue of his gospel , he doth sow the children of the kingdome , according to that promise of old , i will sowe her to mee in the earth . but the devill , that envies christs kingdome ( not the world ) sowes the tares which are the children of that wicked one . these tares grow up in the kingdome of heaven , which is in the field of the world , with the good seed , and so long as the divell is the divell , and envies , it will be so . and it is christs judgement concerning them , let them alone , till the harvest , least while ye pluck up the tares , yee pull up the wheate . surely they were other than the weeds of the world out of the church . these might have been plucked up without dangering the church . they were blasted corne upon one stalke , which from the power of the gospel were called into the church , but degenerated by the supersowing of satan , into wickednesse in life and doctrine ; and so became as these tares , which grow up together with this good seed till the harvest . thus the text is cleare . next for examples , looke to all the visible churches that ever were , and they stand for a mixed company . in adams house there was a cain , in noahs a cham , and in christs a judas . but ( say they ) these were cast out . it is true , some way or other , but while they were in , they were true members of the visible church , as those that could plead , wee have eate and drunke in thy presence , and thou hast taught in our streets . have we not by thy name prophecied , and by thy name cast out devils ? yet , in the harvest , because they were onely outward , not inward members , they shall heare depart from mee , i know you not , to wit , to save you and bring you to life . as the temple in christs dayes was the house of god , and yet , by the mixture , a denne of theeves : so may the visible church now be gods temple , and the habitation of devils . in the church of corinth there were carnall people , an incestuous beast , denyers of the resurrection , and drunken , and uncharitable partakers of the sacrament of the lords body and bloud , yet a true visible church of god then ; yea and after , when of all these wicked ones , none was cast out , but that one incestuous person . so in the church of galatia , there were false brethren that crept in , revolters from the faith of christ , who bewitched others with false doctrine against the foundation , yet was it saluted , and was , a true church of god. if it seeme strange to men ( who would ingrosse all religion to themselves ) yet it doth not to christ , who would have done otherwise , but did not for these causes . first , in respect of the gospel , it is the sweet message of salvation , which cannot but allure all sorts . who doth not desire salvation ? so long as they like the termes and conditions , they come , heare and receive ; and though they had rather have it upon their owne conditions , yet they desire salvation by christ , and so all sorts are mixt . besides the gospel hath a double use ; to be a savour of life unto life , out of gods intention : and to be a savour of death unto death , out of mans abuse . so long as god intendeth his grace that bringeth salvation , and appeares unto all men , and man abuseth it to sin that grace may abound , there cannot but bee a mixt company . secondly , in respect of god : he is willing to manifest his divine goodnesse to all , both iewes and gentiles , in tendring the meanes of grace . he would have a ground of his mercy to spare wicked hypocrites for the godlies sake : and it is fit that he have arguments of justice within the church , that the godly may feare and not sinne . so long as this goodnesse of god holds , and the reason of gods state and government , there will be a mixed company . thirdly , in respect of the godly . they must be tryed , and exercised in faith , wisedome , and patience . heresies must bee amongst thē , that they that are approved might be knowne . as the canaanites were left among the israelites to prove them : so are wicked professors among those that are good : yea the goodnesse of the godly , by this meanes , is made more perspicuous . as it is a more grievous fault not to bee good among the good , so it is an high and excellent praise to bee good among those that are wicked ; as zachary , elizabeth , ioseph , the blessed virgin , symeon , and hannah , in bad times , and in a corrupt church . fourthly , in respect of satan and ungodly men . god will not banish satans malice , no not out of the church here : therefore as of old , so still he permits him to sowe his tares . and hee would have the wicked to have many cords to draw them to christ to bee more justly confounded . if the word , sacraments , prayer , and the examples of good men in the communion of goodnesse , prevaile not with them , their sentence will be manifested to be more just , when it shall be said , binde them hand and foot , cast them into utter darknesse , where shall be wayling , weeping , and gnashing of teeth . so long as god hath godly men in the church to be tryed , and to be glorified : so long as satan hath malice , and the wicked are under arguments of just conviction , there will bee a mixed company . lastly , in respect of the church , and the use of the supper , whereunto it is invited , christ hath committed unto his church the exercise of censures according to the severall carriages of members . if there were to be none but good , loosing would be enough ; but seeing there are to bee good and bad , binding is necessary also . and that this is provided for members , is certaine ; for ( saith paul ) what have i to doe to judge those that are without ? and for the use of christs supper , whereto wee are invited , it is to give both the unions with christ . the union of profession , and outward covenant ; when men professe themselves to be christs , and therefore come to the coven●nt , in the word , and seales of it in the sacraments ; from which yet ( alas ) men for their sinnes , are daily cut off : and the union by power , and inward covenant ; when men in christs wayes are christs indeed , and therefore come to the covenant and seales , with an humble purpose to abide with him for ever . so long as the church hath censures to exercise upon her unruly members ; and both these unions with christ hold true , there will be a mixture in the visible church . but ( say the brownists ) it is true , there may bee a mixture admitted to the hearing of the word , but not as members of the church yet . and why so ? surely , if they heare and consent unto it ( though in hypocrisie ) god accounts them in covenant , and then who shall deny them to be members ? moses l●id before the face of israel all the words which the lord commanded him ; and the people answered , all that the lord commands we will heare , and doe . this many of them did in hypocrisie , and therefore god complaines , o that there were such an heart in them ! yet marke what the lord said to moses , and moses to the people . to moses god said , write these words , for after the tenour of these words , i have made a covenant with thee and with israel : and to the people moses said , thou hast avouched this day , the lord to be thy god , and to walke in his wayes , and the lord hath avouched thee to be his peculiar people . say i pray ; which of our members doe not thus readily professe ? who will say that he will not heare god , and do his will ? if they doe it in hypocrisie , woe unto them : if they doe it in profession , they are in outward covenant , as gods people : if they are in covenant , who can denie them to bee members before they are cast out ? but they dreame of other members who must bee chosen into their congregations for governement , as those that have a full right from christ to give voices for ordinations , elections , excommunications , absolutions , and the like , ( as if all the members of a common-wealth must bee counsellours , if not kings ) but where will they finde in christs word , that none are members of a visible church , but those that are admitted members for government , i cannot tell , except they have a new testament not knowne to us . it is true , that peter calleth gods people , a chosen generation , a royal priest-hood , an holy nation . but i hope , he doth not write to any particular visible church , but to the dispersed saints in divers churches , that were elect according to the foreknowledge of god the father , none will deny these to be true members of the churches where they live : and if they doe deny others , who have not such high graces as these had , to be members of a visible church as well as they , ( though notwithstanding their profession to bee servants of christ , they flatter with their mouth , and lie with their tongues , because their heart is not right with god , neither are they stedfast in his covenant ) they must denie the whole course of scripture , which must judge them at the latter day . but ( say they ) how can the wicked bee members of the church of christ , seeing christ is not their head ? christ hath told no man thus . for though he be not their head by infusion of saving and sanctifying graces of the spirit unto eternall life : yet is he their head : ( as they are his members ) by professed governement . a good husband is the head of a wicked wife : and a good king is the head of wicked subjects : so christ is the head of wicked members , to draw them to better courses , or to have them brought forth to bee slaine before him , because they will not that hee rule over them as he should . but ( say they ) the visible church is the kingdome of heaven : and wicked men are not the members of that . the kingdome of heaven stands in righteousnesse , peace , and joy in the holy ghost : of this kingdome they are not members . but the kingdome of heaven is like unto a net , that gathered of every kinde ; of this kingdome they are members , till christ cast away the bad in the end of the world . they are not in this kingdome by the power of godlinesse : they are in this kingdome by profession , and presence among and with the meanes of salvation , till the kingdome be removed from them . but ( say they ) wicked men are dead : and how can dead members bee members of a living body ? iust as an unfruitfull , or rotten branch , is a branch , till it be cut off ; that bough is dead , ( say wee ) yet is a bough . that member is gangrenated , yet is a member till the chirurgions knife comes and hath done its office . sardis was a true visible church , yet had but a name to live , but was dead : so may wicked men be in the church , as members for outward communion , but not for inward comfort . well ( say they ) : put case that wicked christians are members of the visible church till they are cut off ; yet they should bee cut off in a true church , whereas they continue in yours , and are not cut off . put case this charge were true ; yet christ learnes not to argue from thence , that ours is no true church . this may make us a corrupt church , but not a false one . how many wicked members were in the only church of god in christs time ; yet he separates not from it as a false church ? for as a tree , or man , or beast , may have corrupt members , yet not be false creatures in their kindes : so may it bee in a church . and rashly to separate from such members , will not prove the correction of them , but their hinderance in good , when they see themselves contemned without conviction and judgement . thus are they put further from the kingdome of heaven , and made seven-fold the child of hell more , to the hazard of all . but this is false that ungodly men are not cut off from our true church . they are cut off two wayes , by acts of the state , and acts of the church . the state , when they are judiciously tryed , cuts off many of them by the gallowes : and in the church they are cut off three wayes ; ministerially , when by declaring christs pleasure what they should be , and denouncing his wrath against them for what they are , the vile are separated from the precious , as those that have no actuall right to the salvation of christ : professionally , when gods good people pray against their wickednesse , reprove it , complaine against it , and practise otherwise in wills , affections , and whole courses , and are payed for it with their reproaches and persecutions : and lastly , ecclesiastically , when by processe and publike tryall , they are cast out of our synagogues and assemblies . if all tast not the bitternesse of this censure ( when church-officers remember not the oath of god , and so through feare , favour , and affection , bring them not before the churches tribunall ) yet many doe to be examples to all , as in the church of corinth , whereof many wicked persons one incestuous beast was cast out . but ( say they ) you should separate from them all , at least in the sacrament of the lords supper . the apostle paul saw all the disorders in the church of corinth , yet taught not a separation in this sacrament , but gave this rule of remedy , let a man examine himselfe : and to the galatians he saith , every man shall beare his owne burthen . though in duties of charity we must beare one anothers burthens , yet in rendring of accounts , we must beare our owne : which , were it well observed , it would make them more carefull to reforme themselves , then curiously to pry into , and censure others . againe , put case wicked persons come to our communions of the body and bloud of christ , wee should not separate from them , but they should separate from us : it is but theirs by their profession , but it is ours by our power of grace . when things are naught wee must separate , but when they are good wee must stay in our owne right . it was sinne in israel to separate from the sacrifices , for the mixture of elies wicked sonnes whom god would destroy . but because this doth sticke so much with them , and their partners , that wicked men come to our sacrament of the lords supper , i shall therefore ( by gods helpe ) cleare these three particulars : 1 what right a wicked man hath by vertue of the gospel to this sacramēt ? 2 what benefit he can have from it ? 3 vvhat separation gods word will warrant from such receivers ? for the first the sacrament hath a double office : to offer grace to them that will receive it according to their profession ; and to exhibit this grace offered to the worthy receiver . it doth the first , as a signe , the bread , and wine of the lord ; these proclaime to all comers , that christ is to bee had in the use of them , if they bee so disposed as they should , to take him . it doth the second as a seale , the bread and wine , which is the communion of the lord. these proclaime to the faithfull , that they shall not onely have bread and wine , but christ the lord , as that mannah that came downe from heaven to feede them to eternall life . the wicked christian hath a right unto it as it offers grace , which he hath truely offered to him , on gods part , in his invitation if hee will take it on gods condition . the same right that simon magus had to baptisme , have wicked christians to the supper of the lord. he professed himselfe to believe in christ , upon philips preaching , and he had a right to baptisme , and was baptized . it is true that baptisme is a sacrament of our ingraffing into christ , and the lords supper of our growing into christ . but he that is a baptized christian , and hath understanding to examine and judge himselfe , cannot be denyed his right to this sacrament , as wel as to that . both are but the seales of one covenant : and whosoever receiveth the word of christ , and professeth to accept it by faith , hath a right to the offers of the grace of christ in both the sacraments : but not to the exhibiting of it , if the barre of impure unbeliefe lyes betwixt god and his soule . if secondly , you aske what benefit this wicked man can have by this sacrament ? i answer , hee hath the benefit of profession ; he doth receive christs liverie of servants , and doth submit himselfe to his ordinance , and acknowledge his publick authority for the benefit of his church . and this is a glorious benefit , in it selfe , for a christian to weare christs badge . but hee doth not receive the benefit of the body and bloud of christ , with the benefits of them to life : for if he did thus eate his flesh , and drinke his bloud , hee had eternall life . he brings his soule to the sacrament without the conditions of the covenant written upon it , and so , though he accept of the offer of grace in the signe , yet hee carries not away the seale of it , no more then iudas did from the passeover . his right , and benefit therefore will bring little comfort to him at the last , when his reckoning comes . thirdly , this wicked man having a right to it , and a benefit too , ( such as it is to him ) , you aske , what separation gods word will warrant from such communicants ? i answer , that i cannot finde in the word of god , that any separation was made in the sacrament by the godly , from the wicked not cast out for their unworthinesse . all the ●ewes that were circumcised ( and not cast out of their synagogues ) were to eate the passeover , or dye : the children that could eat , as a sacrifice of thanksgiving , and growne persons , as a sacrament & seale of gods covenant so all christians ( that are not infants , mad-men , fooles , and excommunicates , who cannot examine , and judge themselves , or are after conviction , notorious offenders , and so cast out ) are not repellable ( if they come ) from the sacrament of the lords supper . it is true , wee reade much in the writings of men of suspensions from this sacrament , even of those , that were neither children , fooles , mad-men , demoniacks , nor excommunicate persons by private , ministers : but i would see this ( for the right of it ) soundly proved by the undoubted rule of christ . i have read also , that the blessed fathers , in the wary discipline fit for their times , did not onely proclaime before the sacrament by their deacons , depart ye that are novices , possessed , and under your penance for your crimes ; but would not also admit any , but the believers , and the baptized , so much as to see the sacrament . i have reade also of the cautelousnesse of those holy men , in admitting penitents to the lords table . as they first admitted them into the limits of the church : next to lye down as humble suiters , to forget scandall , at the church porch : next to heare , but not stay prayers : next to heare , and stay prayers too : next to see the sacrament of the lords supper , but not to receive it : and lastly , when they were sufficiently humbled , and edged to those high mysteries , they were admitted to the lords table . these courses had high and excellent use in those times , when they were to lift up the honour of the sacrament in the sight of infidels , and hold close such christians as played fast and loose with christ , as peace , or persecution came . and though they had not particular warrant from god , yet it being done decently , in order , and for edification of the body , had warrant sufficient from that generall rule . as i have reade these things of times past , and admire them , so i know , for the present , that it were a glorious and comfortable thing , if none but holy persons would draw neere unto this holy table , as wee deale withall our communicants by way of exhortation , and perswasion from the danger of iudas . this certainely is fullest of joy , when christ meetes with none but his faithfull servants , and not one unworthy to trouble the day . but if wicked christians that are not lawfully convicted , and are not notorious in law ( though they bee notorious in fact ) whether these , ( when they will offer themselves to the sacrament as christs servants professing his name , to their owne hurt ) be to bee separated from , by the word of christ , this is the question . i know we may by way of admonition , before hand , tell them of the danger , and by way of perswasion presse them better to prepare themselves : but wee may not for their sakes discommon our selves from the table of the lord. if it were the table of devils , away we must goe : but being the table of christ , if others abuse themselves at it without our fault , wee must accept of christs love , and leave it to christ to punish him , or them , that doe dishonour them . you know many theeves in this christian common-wealth ; will you therefore separate your selves from the common-wealth , because these theeves are in common body with you ? no : you will leave them to the lawes of it to bee punished , and as it lies in your lot , doe your best to further it , but you will not forsake the common-wealth : so must you doe to the table of jesus christ . the blessed apostle saith , we have received power to edifie , not to destroy . and if wee should fall out with christs supper for wicked mens sake , and separate from christs ordinance , because wicked men will not use it as they should , and breake off from many godly persons , because more wicked persons are not excommunicate , for any thing i know , we may more destroy then edifie . but ( say the brownists ) holy things must not bee cast to dogs and swine , the childrens bread must not be given to whelps . this is true , if we can helpe it . but every wicked christian is not a swine or dog , nor any alien from the cōmon-wealth of israel , as the canaanitish woman , till her new faith made her a prosilite . not one of ten thousand of thē ( whom they so highly judge ) wil dare to trample the sacrament under their feet , and all to rent the giver of it unto them . but put case , that some such miscreant might bee found , because these reputed dogges and swine abuse it to themselves , will you abuse it too in separating from it which exhibits so much good . but ( they say perhaps ) the ministers might keep them away from it , but do not . by what authority might they ? put case they had the authority of a judge ( which is false heere ) may a judge hang a thiefe before his trial ? so , nor may hee discommon any from the lords table till trial and sentence bee past . if any wicked christian should say i am not excommunicate , i will receive , shall they disturbe christs sonnes for the unmannerlinesse of such a servant ? noe : god is not the god of confusion , but order . let them come at their own perill , to our misery , not to our sinne when wee have warned . but ( say the brownists ) we shall partake in other mens sins , and so be polluted with such communions . to make this vanish , it is the third and last point propounded , that remaines in this section to bee considered . that their dreamed of pollution is from their owne braines , not from the ordinance of christ . they account all then polluted , that are in spiritual communion in the worship of god with wicked and ungodly men . but the prophets reproved many abuses , and never taught any pollution , neither did god appoint any sacrifice to expiate such pollution . there was a sacrifice for the whole congregation , to satisfy for their sinnes of ignorance , but not to take off the guilt of pollution by a mixture in the service of god. god tyed them all to the kingdome , priesthood , and temple , and hee doth not tye men necessarily to sinne . the godly people in the time of the law , were never reprooved for the worship of god , though wicked men were present . indeed the priests were blamed highly , as violaters of the law , because they put no difference betwixt the holy , and the profane , nor have shewed difference betwixt the uncleane and cleane ; and that justly too : because god had made them teachers of the people , and they neglected the sabbaths : and because he had made them ordinary iudges in these , & other cases , according to his word . but they never judged the godly polluted , for not separating from the wicked in gods service . againe , christ and his apostles , reproved many corruptions in churches , yet never taught or practised separation upon a conceit of pollution . yea , christ commendeth the church of thyatyra , for living wel , where corruption was . iezabel was suffered there : yet as many as have not this doctrine , nor knowne the depthes of satan , hold fast till i come ; and he that overcommeth , shal have power over the nations . surely the best were not polluted by the worst , nor taught separation , but constancy in good , and reward at last . but not to bee too large , consider thoroughly but these three conclusions . first , god doth acquit the godly from the sinnes of the wicked , though they bee mixed in the ordinances of god. they that walke in my statutes and ordinances , shall bee my people , but they whose heart walketh after detestable things , i will recompence their way upon their owne head . the soule that sinnes , shall dye , not he that is guiltlesse . the wicked shall die in his iniquity , but warne him , and thou shalt deliver thy soule . i am confident ( saith paul ) that you will bee no otherwise minded , but hee that troubleth you shall beare his judgmēt , whosoever he be . to the pure , all things are pure , but to the impure nothing is pure . all there were in spirituall communion together , yet god doth not cast the sinnes of the guilty upon the innocent , but doth acquit the one , and accuse the other , yea but , ( say the brownists ) god doth not acquit them that consent to the wickednesse of others . this is most true : we must neither sinne , nor have fellowship with sinne , nor consent to sinners : if we doe , we make other mens sinnes our owne . now we may be said to consent to sinne , both in things lawfull , and in things unlawfull . in things unlawfull when wee have fellowship with wicked doers , and are accessary to their offences : and this may bee divers wayes , whereof some are proper to superiours , and some common to all . superiours may bee guilty of other mens sinnes two wayes , by command , and by connivence . by the first , if they injoyne that which is evill , all the evill that is done upon their injunction is theirs , whether it bee publike or private . nebuchadnezzar by law and edict , was guilty of all the idolatry and cruelty which did insue upon it . therefore woe to them that decree wicked decrees , and write grievous things . saul was guilty of that murther done upon the lords priests : and david of the death of vriah , because they commanded them . by the second , if they wincke at faults which are in their power to redresse . iehoas● tooke not away the high places , and so was guilty of his peoples incense . ahab wincked at b●nhadad , and let him go , when god had given him into his hands for death , and was guilty . pilate wincked at the cruelty of the jewes , and notwithstanding all his washing was guilty . david displeased not adonjah from his youth , nor said ▪ why dost thou thus ? and so was guilty of his riot and rebellion . all may be guilty of the sinnes of others , both before the offence be committed , and in , and after it . before the offence , by provocation , counsell , approbation , and silence when called to speak . by provocation , either when men rage the heart , and fire the passions by thwarting and daring words or actions , as iezabel , who provoked her husband ahab : or when they allure and entise with sweet words , as that harlot , come let us fill our selves with love until the morning ; or with infecting and evill words . by counsel , when men advise to any sinne : thus ionadab was guilty of the incest of amnon ; herodias of the bloud of iohn baptist ; demetrius of the uprore against paul ; and balaam of israels baal-peor . by approbation , when men doe not onely doe such things as are worthy of death , but favour them that doe them . this may be done directly , either by word of deed , as when saul consented to the death of stephen , and kept the garments of them that stoned him , or by interpretation , when a man is bound to withstand another mans sinne , and doth not either by word or deed . moses hath given us a precept to speake in our places , and told us the danger of silence . to speake ill doth draw men into sinne , and to hold our peace ill doth leave a man in sinne . by example , when we live wickedly in the sight of others . for though , haply , the sinnes that wee practise bee not imitated of all : yet because wee have done what in us lies to set others a copy , which some will too greedily follow , therfore are we guilty ; we may be guilty againe of the sins of others , in and after the sin is committed , when men doe excuse , or defend the sinnes , or flatter men in them . woe to them that speake good of evil , and evil of good . he that saith to the wicked , thou art righteous , him shall the people curse , as him that is guilty . lastly , wee may bee said to consent to sinne , in things lawfull by scandall , when men use their liberty which god hath given them , in things indifferent ( left in their owne power to doe or not to doe ) to the wilfull offence , and snare of others that are weake . of this paul speakes doctrinally , it is good neither to eate flesh , nor drink-wine , nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth , and in his owne example , if meate offend my brother , i will eate no flesh while the world lasteth : so carefull was hee not to have communion in the sinnes of others . now let us see whether we are polluted by the sinnes of the wicked by consent . because they consent with us in doing of our good , doe wee therefore consent with them in doing their evill ? their courses are daily reproved , both publickely , and privately : they are judged as such , whose examples wee would not follow for a world . they are neither commanded to doe as they doe , nor winked at when lawfully tried ; wee doe not provoke , counsel , or approve their cursed hypocrisies . they have no such examples from us : and have beene so long instructed , both by publicke instruments and preachings , and private conferences , that their scandals are taken , and not given , in those things ( free in themselves , but not to us by the command of lawfull authority ) whereat they will still take offence . how are we yet guilty of the sinnes of others to our pollution ? o say they , every congregation hath power in its owne hand to redresse things amisse , to repell wicked livers from our communions , whereas wee wait upon our king , when wee should doe it without him : and so are guilty of al the wickednesse of our assemblies . the vanity of this i have shewed in part before ; and shall doe it more in the next section : yet in the meane time , first wee confesse , that wee have power to redresse disorders : not in every particular church ; for then no man under the gospel could perish in the gainesaying of corah , as saint iude saith they may . superiority was the cause of his mutiny , because he might not be equal to aaron : but in every diocesse , where wee are governed not by the lawes of one man , but of synods of bishops and presbyters : and if persons ( that should be as the house of cloe , to informe , and that upon oath , of things amisse ) were not more to be blamed then offices , we might be as happy as any church under heaven . the impetuous carriage of some , who despise dominions , and speake evill of dignities , and that , without feare , and thinke it as easie to governe multitudes , as an handfull , makes them think otherwise : but if things bee weighed by the rule of the word , wisedome , and charity , it will bee found , i am sure , that wee have power indeed . but secondly , whereas they make us guilty of the wickednesse of our assemblies , by waiting upon the pleasure of our king , and not reforming without him , herein wee joy , yea , and will rejoyce againe : wee waite not upon kings and princes to bee christians , and to serve god faithfully by the acts of true faith , hope , and charity . if all the kings and emperors in the world say against it , wee must , and ( by grace ) will doe it . yea , if all the stormes in the world bee raised , we must strive unto bloud , but with teares , prayers , patience in suffering , not with armes , and violence . this we doe by private profession : but when it comes to a publicke reformation of christian churches already planted , it is our glory to waite upon christian kings , whose subjects we are , that wee will not governe , but under him , nor build walls for the citizens of the saints , but under the defence of their swords ; especially considering that wee know , wee cannot without them mend our hands . when wee looke to the daies of asa , iehoshaphat , hezekiah , and iosiah , wee finde that no israelite ever took upon him to reforme either without , before , or against them . when the temple of ierusalem lay waste , zorababel and ioshuah did nothing without cyrus : nor did nehemiah any thing without artashashte . indeed in their times , god knowing the time was come , when according to prophecie , he was to looke upon the desolations of ierusalem , and restore it , prepared and whetted the hearts of the people of the iewes , by haggai and zechariah , but they built nothing but by the leave of their kings , and when countermands came , they laid downe their tooles , and the worke of the house of god ceased ; so good subjects they would bee notwithstanding the height of their religion . but ( say they ) they should have done otherwise : for haggai reproves them for letting the house of god lye waste , and god sends a famine upon them . this is true , they were too blame when they minded their owne houses more , and took not their seasons allowed them for this great worke . but that either the prophet threatned , or god punished them , for not building when they were under the interdict , that let them prove , and they shall have more said . how unhappy are they we now see , while they make our assemblies polluted for not doing that ( if we wanted it , as we doe not ) which is unlawfull for us to doe without lawfull authority ? the apostles indeed planted churches without waiting upon heathen kings ; but they had apostolicall authoritie , & were to do according to christs commission to them , which was out of date in their death : but we cannot reforme without or against christian kings ( if we could yet make a better reformation ) except they can shew a new commission under christs owne hand . if therefor wee have faults we cannot help ( and provided we consent not ) we are not polluted . the second conclusion is this , that god declares it to be a sinne for the godly to leave the worship of god for the wickednesse of those that come unto it . we know that the sinne of the sonnes of ely was so great , that men abhorred the offerings of the lord : but in so doing it is said , that the lords people did transgresse , even unto a cry . surely , this truth will not easily bee outfaced : yet some of them to avoid it say , that no marvell if morall wickednesse did not pollute the iewish worship , because god required onely ceremoniall cleannesse then . but how false this is , appeares by gods covenant with abraham , where god required sincerity : by the morall law which was gods covenant : by gods requiring , then , truth in the inward part : by his injoyning sacrifices for morall transgressions as well as ceremoniall : by his signifying of pollution by morall uncleannesses : and by threatning of morall sinnes , and abhorring all ceremoniall service ; when men sinned morally against god. surely , their morall pollutions went beyond their typicall , and wrought their utter ruine at last , notwithstanding the temple of the lord , the temple of the lord : and yet christ himselfe would not separate from such worshippers as were polluted , so long as the worship was gods. it was fit for a pharise ; it was not fit for christ , who knew that to the pure all things are pure . the last conclusion is this , that the scripture admits godly christians to the holy things of god , though open wicked men be there . divers good people goe to the altar with their gifts : some are in charity , and some wickedly uncharitable , their brethren have something against them . now , christ doth not bid them all goe away , because of that malicious man , but bids him that is malicious ( if he would have gods blessing ) goe and be reconciled and come againe . againe , when paul saw fearefull wickednesse in corinthian communions , hee doth not bid them all abstaine for feare of pollution , but ( according as hee had received of the lord ) he bids them examine themselves , and so let them eate of this bread , and drinke of this cup , whatsoever others be . certainely , the apostle was not acquainted with the doctrine of the brownists , which teacheth , that because another doth sinne , i may not doe my duty to god : because a wicked man will come to the sacrament , i may not : because another man offendeth god , in serving him , i may not serve him then for feare of pollution . no king shall have subjects , nor master have servant , nor shall god have worshippers upon these termes . but ( say they ) the worship of god is polluted by such uncleane worshippers . this is true , but to whom ? to them that serve him aright , or to them that serve him amisse ? the apostle saith , that the unworthy communicant eateth and drinketh judgement to himselfe , not to them that are better . it is true , that hee that touched a dead body , and purified not himselfe , defiled the tabernacle , but it was unto himselfe , who therefore was to bee cut off , and not others that were innocent . it is true too , that the judgement of the priests was right , that if an uncleane person touch bread , pottage , wine , oyle or meate , it shall be uncleane , to himselfe that is uncleane , but not to him that toucheth it that is cleane , and so a prophane christian that comes to the lords supper , pollutes not what the minister performes , and good people receive , but what himselfe toucheth . it is true also , that a seditious multitude charged paul falsely , that he polluted the holy place by bringing greekes into the temple . for , though god forbade the israelites to admit the moabites , and ammonites , for a long time into the common-wealth of israel , what is this to prose●ites , by profession , comming into the temple ? all this is true i say : yet this typical pollution ( which did not foreshadow the pollution of visible assemblies , but the holinesse and impurity and sincere christians , and hypo , crites ) doth not prove the pollution of all worship to the good , for the naughtinesse of the bad , christ is not so hard a master ; neither doth hee blame the worthy guests for being polluted by the unworthy , or suffering him to come in , but saith to him onely , friend , how camest thou in hither , not having on a wedding garment ? sect . 12. brownists last exception against our church , about the governement of it , for power . from the brownists meaning , by a true church , and their entrance into , head and members of a true church , we are at last come to the governement of a true church : and because they finde ours not to bee governed according to their fansies , therefore they except against it , as antichristian , and therefore , not a true church . it is true that governement is an excellent blessing , it is as the bridle to the horse , the rudder to the ship , yea , the lawes and judgement seate of a kingdome . a right to this cannot be separated from a true church . for if it bee a church , it hath right to christs lawes , judgements , and executions to governe it as his kingdome upon earth . yea , the use of this right cannot bee taken away , without the great sinne of them that doe it , and injury to the church from whom it is taken ; yea , the church that is robbed of it , ought not to rest in this wrong , when they are so oppressed : but ought of dutie to pray to god for it , and humbly to supplicate unto men in authority , who are able , as christs prime officers for the welfare of the church , to helpe them at such a lift . but no church ought to call for such a governement as christ never commanded ; yea , no church ought when they have a governement sutable to the apostles , and primitive times of the church , and not contrary to any law of christ , but sutable to his generall rules in the scriptures , for some pretended , or true defects in governement , to make a schism and separation from publick communion . yes ( say the brownists ) where government is so base , that foule corruptions rule , from such a church wee must separate . but who laid this ( must ) upon you ? i am sure not christ , who taught us otherwise in his blessed life . there were fearefull corruptions in the church of the jewes , both in the priests , in the people , and in the worship of god. in the priests , there was ignorance ; for they were blinde guides . there was ungodlines , for they said , and did not there was corrupt entrance into their calling ; for caiphas was high-priest for that yeare : hee was annuary ( be like ) though by gods law the high-priest should continue during life . in the people there was obstinate wickednesse . they would have broke christs necke downe a steepe hill . they rejected him , and chose barabbas . they were in worse state then tyrus , sidon , and sodome . they drew , and wisht the guilt of christs bloud to bee upon them and their children . in the worshippe of god they used many superstitions precisely ; the temple was made a denne of theeves : the censures were abused for the casting out of innocents : the doctrine of god was corrupted by glosses : and the blessed sacraments were abused : for they observed not the passeover on the time appointed , and therefore christs was before theirs . notwithstanding all these corruptions , by slack governement , yet did christ hold publicke cōmunion with them . hee was circumcised the eight day : he was presented to the lord as well as others : he heard , & was baptized : he eat the passeover with them , and allowed his disciples to heare the very pharisees . can they therfore justly say , that they must separate from a church corrupted for want of i governement ? yes ( say they ) that they must : when governement is naught , practise is answerable , and better of either cannot be had . i wonder what they would have done , if they had lived in the times of the judges , when every man did what hee listed ? or in our blessed saviours time , when so many schismaticks , and sectaries had rule and governement ? or in the apostles time , when diotrephes used such tyrannical pride , and usurped such authority , that hee would not receive the very apostles ▪ would they have separated ? i am sure , that neither israel , nor christ , nor his apostles did so ? iohn did onely write to the church about it : and are these wiser then they ? no ( say they ) wee doe it not out of an opinion of our owne wisedome , but out of conscience , and for the glory of god , and for sions sake . but take they heed : every one that pretends to make the word of christ his rule , hath not these ends before him as he ought . gentilis , that impious blasphemer of the trinity , when he was called to answer , said , that hee was drawne to maintaine his cause from touch of conscience : and when hee was to dye , that hee did suffer for the glory of the most high god. and paul when he was yet a pharisee , lived in all good conscience , when naturall wisedome was his interpreter of gods word . even so , may it be with them . o no : they are sure of their hand : they are taught of god , and they must separate from such a wicked governmēt as ours is for conscience sake . why , what is the matter ? let us ( in the feare of god ) heare the worst , that wee may mend , or bee obstinate . i never heard but three things pleaded against our governement by them . 1 the power of true government . 2 the persons of our governours . 3 and their exercise of our government . we wil heare them in all , to the last word , and our good god give us understanding in all things for peace and salvation . the power of true church government ( say the brownists ) is in the whole church and in every particular member in body , and not onely in the prime members onely . in this they doe not onely fight against us , but against al the presbyteries in the world : and so they pull more adversaries upon them , then they will be able to withstand : in this they beate downe at one blow that which hath exercised the wits of thousands , without satisfaction to millions of consciences . yea in this they joyne hands with corah , dathan , and abiram , who loved not the governement of the best , because all the congregation is holy , every one of them . but against whomsoever they fight , and with whomsoever they joyne , surely ( say they ) true church government is in the whole congregation . it is true , that if wee consider the church as a compleat body under christ the head , then the power of church government is in the whole church : as the animal body is said to see , to goe , to worke , to speake originally , though subjectively and formally , it is the eye sees , the foot goes , the hand works , and the tongue speaks . but that the whole body of christ ( the church catholike , or particular for her part ) should have this power , so as to have power to exercise it formally , cannot bee made good from the word of christ . before the law , church government lay upon adam , noah , abraham , and the rest of the patriarchs . vnder the law , it lay upon moses and aaron ( though to moses was added by iethroes advise seventy elders , not by gods immediate direction , though after they were approved by him . ) vnder the gospel the gifts of power and government was bestowed upon some , not upon all : and the people never attempted any thing without the apostles leave , assistance , and direction . the apostles ordained elders , and not the people without them . the apostles called for the elders and conferred with them without the people . the elders did consult with iames and paul , without asking the votes of the people , and did a matter of weight for the peace of the church from their owne judgements : yea and when the whole church was with the apostles and elders in counsell these are preferred before them as their superiours , who had their consent of love and charity , but not of authority . therefore the people were not reproved for the disorders of the church and common-wealth , but the princes and the priests : according to which generall course we must understand those few particulars wherein blame seemes to bee layed upon the body of the people also . for the people are still commanded subjection and submission to governours ecclesiasticall and temporall : and are still called by the names of sheepe , brethren , saints , houshold , spouse , children , and the like ; whereas their governours are called bishops , overseers , elders , presbyters , angels , fathers , as termes of superiority . it is true , they are also called a royall priesthood , and kings : but not in regard of externall power of government in the church , but of internall power of saving grace to rule over their own corruptions , that sin may not raigne in their mortall bodies ; which if they would exercise as they ought these quarrels might soone cease . noe ( say the brownists ) these quarrels must not cease , so long as we find in scriptures , the peoples power of government in the church , maintained . for they instance in two high parts of government , excommunication and absolution , and they find the peoples power in both . for christ saith , if thy brother trespasse against thee , and he will not heare thee , or more with thee , goe tell the church , that is say they , the whole congregation , and as hee doth heare or neglect that , let him be to thee either bound or loosed by excommunication or absolution . hence they argue thus : church is taken for every particular congregation where christians live : before this in body , the delinquent that is obstinate must bee convented , bee it lesse or greater : and it hath a power in governement , even in these things of highest nature : therefore the power of government is in the people , as well , as deeply , as in others . heere is their impregnable hold ( as they thinke ) and therefore they come upon us thus roundly : christ hath charged his apostles , and their true successours : that they should teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever hee hath commanded them : but you that are the ministers of the church of england , doe not teach us to observe all things : for christ hath commanded a forme of governement , wherein all members should have publicke cognizance of offences for the advancement of the kingdome of christ , and you suffer him to be dishonoured , and us to bee robbed of our rights ; and therfore ye are not the ministers of christ , neither is your church a true church of christ . thus ( so farre as i can gather from them , and conceive ) i have given them the full advantage of their plea. but if all this were true , it doth not follow that wee are not the true ministers of christ , nor that our church is not his true church . not the first , because that exposition of christs words is their owne , and not christs . if christ had said unto us , that hee would have such a governement erected in every parish , then wee should dishonour our master , and rob gods people , not to preach it . others have with prayer , care , and conscience looked upon those words of christ , as well as they : and yet some finde in that church mentioned by christ , onely the iewish sanhedrim : some the pope and his conclave : some the presbytery of mixt elders : some the consistory of preaching elders : and some bishops and superintendents , who have the highest oversight to punish church scandals under the magistrates , under whom they live . but these men ( as if they would exclude other mens discourses , and binde up their consciences to their interpretations ) will have their meaning to be the true sence , and no other . neither doth it follow , that our church is not the true church of christ . what though-something that christ hath commanded to be observed be not taught , nor observed , doth it therefore follow that such a church is not his ? what christian is there that hath all christs observations taught in every congregation where hee comes , or , if hee have them all , doth observe and doe them as he ought ? and yet , i hope , he may be a true christian , and saved in the day of christ . as in a christian , wee must observe what gives him saving fellowship with christ , to wit , repentance from dead workes , and faith unfained : and how he walketh worthy of this fellowship in the way of life , to wit , by deniall of himselfe , taking up of the crosse , and following christ , so farre , that no wilfull nor deliberate sinne raigne in him : and then though he do not observe every outward forme and rule , yet ( i hope ) christ may be his christ , and he christs member to life . so in a church must we observe what gives it true ecclesiasticall fellowship with christ , to wit , the apostles doctrine , and fellowship , breaking of bread , and praier : and then , if it professe to know these , and to continue in them , so far as it is come , though it observe not every thing that other men thinke it should , yet i hope it is a true church of christ . but ( say they ) we have not the apostles doctrine and fellowship for want of this popular governement . let them prove once , that this is any part of the apostles doctrine and fellowship . indeed they tell us ( as before ) that christ said , goe tell the church , and so forth : but how this last serves their feet , comes next to bee discussed . if this church were every congregation , and if one man may bind , and loose , it is certaine the whole congregation may doe so also , and so have the greatest power of church governement in their owne hand : but whether the text will conclude for such power is the thing in question . learned men of most ages have much looked upon that text , and have applied it either by way of allusion , or properly to church discipline , some way or other . some churches in this last age have looked upon it fully , and ( as they thinke ) have squared an exact discipline according to it ; though i cannot finde that they cut their course fully according to their owne sence . some particular persons finding this to bee the strongest hold for that new discipline , have sought to overthrow it so , as utterly to roote out excommunication from the church ; and others ( finding the good use of that censure for the well being of the church ) have beene as eagar to maintaine this hold . but discipline , and that censure , hath hold strong enough from other texts , though that of christ bee set in its proper sence . for when wee looke to that promise of christ to his disciples in the name of peter , and how he made it good to his apostles , & lay together the rules & practises of the apostles , especially in the epistles to the corinthians , and to timothy ( which last are spent in rules , for the well ordering of the governing , and the governed ) we shall find ground sufficient for church governement , either in patterne , or precept , generall or speciall , though we suffer this text to appear in its own colors . let me tell them then , that as paul saith : forbeare one another , and forgive one another , if any man have a quarrel , or complaint against any : so christ in that chapter gives a remedy against private contentions . this is plaine to everie eye , that is not wilfully blinded , that christ in that chapter tells of the danger of scandals ; and thereupon he gives a double direction : first to live so , as not to give scandal to others , and secondly , to carry themselves aright to others that give scandal to them ; and that all this is to bee referred to private offences , the unbroken course of the chapter shewes , as saint basil hath observed many hundred yeares agoe . that which moved christ to this discourse , was the present state of the iewish disciples under the romane empire . the romanes had no governement over them , and the authority of their edlers was much diminished . for many of the iewes became servants to the romanes , as their publicanes , to gather in their tribute : such were zacheus , yea , and matthew . these were freed from the authority of the iewes ; as all other iewes were that were freemen of rome , which made paul when hee saw oppression before him , to appeale to caesar , and to plead that he was free borne . this was a great vexation to the iew in recovering of right , and defending himselfe from wrong . therefore christ to moderate the iewes passions arising one against another , directs them what course to take ; you must not deale ( saith hee ) one with another presently , as with publicanes , & heathens , who are out of iewish power , and cannot bee impleaded any where , but before a romane barre : but to cut off al differences betwixt you and your brethren , yee must proceed in a gentle way . why ? what must they doe ? if thy brother ( a iew ) shall trespasse against thee ( a iew ) , right thy selfe by degrees . first , deale with him fraternally , according to the rule of charity , tel him his fault betweene thee and him alone . if that will doe no good to gaine him , then secondly , deale with him legally , take with the one or two more , that may heare the difference , convince him of errour , and perswade him to peace : for this is moses law , that in the mouth of two or three witnesses , every word bee established . if that will not yet bring him home , then thirdly , deale with him iewishly , tell it unto the church , complaine to the sanhedrim , tell the seventy elders who sit yet , by gods approbation , to heare harder causes , and to decide greater doubts against peace , and charity . if yet hee bee so gracel●sse as to neglect thee , and them too , then lastly , deale with him heathenishly by romane soveraignety to which now you are subject , but thinke him to bee as an heathen and publican , & deale with him accordingly : the law is good if it bee used lawfully ; let caesars justice end the difference betwixt you . it is true , the apostle saith , that brother must not dare to goe to law with brother , and that before unbelievers : yet i hope even then , when the iewes , pauls brethren wronged him , and the saints could not right him , hee appealed unto caesar . therefore ye must put a difference betwixt the christian corinthians , after the death of christ , and the christian iewes before the death of christ . these had no church government setled , but that of the iewes , which by romane authority was neglected and slighted : but the corinthians had . for christ never medled to settle any other church government during life , but the iewish , which was to bee of force til after his death : but then he sent his spirit to direct his apostles in all necessaries . the iewes were christians but in working : for the best of them ( even the apostles ) were dreggish in faith and life : in faith about the death and resurrection of christ , and about a temporall kingdome doted upon . in life , when they too full of revenge in drawing the sword as peter , or for calling down fire frō heaven upon the samaritans . but the corinthians were more perfectly instructed in the mysteries of faith and charity , and therefore their brawles would bee more scandalous , having such wise saints among them who shall judge the world . lastly , the apostle findes not fault with the corinthians for going to law absolutely one with another before infidels ; for even heathen kings , and all that are in authority are to be prayed for , that christians may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty : and this they cannot doe except their thrones minister justice in mine and thine . it is lawfull therefore when raking and politicke christians doe bite and devoure one another , doe serve their owne bellies , and by good words and faire speaches doe deceive the hearts of the simple , and defraud one another in bargaining , to appeale to the minister of justice . for all power is of god , and the very heathen magistrate doth not beare the sword in vaine . but he findes fault with them , that they set too great a price upon the things of this life ; that they were too contentious about them ; that they went to law before heathens to the scandall of christianity ; and that they appealed to forraigne judgement , when they might have remedy by wise saints neerer hand , which the jewes could not have , when their elders by romane liberty were contemned . now , if they doubt whether this sense may bee admitted , i shall ( by gods helpe ) cleare it from the text , and maintaine it from exceptions that may arise thence . first , therefore consider that peter understood this discourse of private offences onely : therefore when christ hath done , hee saith , lord , how oft shall my brother sin against me ? against me , saith peter , intimating a private trespasse . secondly , consider christs answer to peter in a parable , where he concludes thus , so shall my heavenly father doe to you , if yee from your hearts forgive not every one his brother his trespasses : where hee still speakes of private trespasses . thirdly , consider the propriety of speech in the words of christ . if thy brother , saith christ , that is , a jew : for no jew nor disciple then called any other man brother but a iew. if thy brother sin against thee , therefore the offence is still private and personall . lastly , consider that christ sends the offender from the church neglected to the plaintiffes censure and punishment to be sought . he doth not say , let him be to the church as an heathen and publican , that is , excommunicate : ( for heathens were not excommunicated ; for what have we to doe to judge those that are without ? no nor publicans neither ; for we reade onely that christ wrought zacheus to restore where he wronged , but we read not that he left his office . and when the publicans came to iohn baptist , hee did not bid them leave their places , but exact no more than that which is appointed you : ) but saith christ , let him bee to thee : because hee hath despised the church , which is the highest tribunall under caesar , hee is in thy hand to take caesars course with him . but ( say they then ) how will you maintaine this sense from just exceptiōs . we had need indeed : for we are persecuted from this text by two sorts of persons . the papists say that here christ refers us to the christian church ( the pope out of his chaire ) to end all controversies . but what have christians to doe here , if it was the comfort or a iew against a iew in private offences ? the brownists say , that here is a rule for every private congregation like themselves to claime a sufficisufficient power by , to advance christs kingdome . and it can be no other ( say they ) for the word ( church ) cannot bee taken for the iewish sanhedrim ; it is a christian word proper to congregations of saints . nay , that word in gods language is used for any assembly . the assembly was confused ; it shall hee determined in a lawfull assembly ; yee cannot give an account of this concourse , therefore hee dissolued the assembly , saith the holy ghost of a wicked uproare ; and in all three places the word church is used . why then may not the grave assembly of the seventy elders be called a church ? yea but ( they say ) heere is mention made of binding and loosing , which are proper to church censures . it is true , that for their affinity in sound , they have beene often applyed so , at least by way of allusion . but we read of a threefold binding in the new testament ▪ divine , ministeriall , and fraternal , divine ▪ when god at last doth justly give over to everlasting obduration , and restraint , those that are cast into hell : so the devils a●e reserved in everlasting chaines : and god saith of final contemners of grace , binde him hand and foot , cast him into utter darkenesse . ministerial , when the preachers of the gospell binde over obstinate sinners to wrath , either morally , by way of denunciation only , or ecclesiastically , by way of processe . this christ promised to the disciples in the name of peter , and performed to all his disciples : yea and this is most fearefull , when the bond is laid right , because they doe it by commission from god as gods ambassadours ; yet is it soluble to true penitents . fraternall and brotherly binding ; when one man bindes another for private offences obstinately stood in : and of that doth christ speake in this place . if ye have won him by a loving conviction , ye loose him of his guilt to you : if hee will live in his uncharitablenesse , ye binde him by your seeking peace : for hee that will not be reconciled from the heart , god will not be reconciled unto him , hee shall into the prison till he hath paid the utmost farthing . but ( it may be said ) how shall i be assured that upon my brothers submission , and mine and my witnesses acceptance , that his bond of guilt shall be loosed by god ? from christs promise , that if two shall agree on earth , as touching any thing that they shall aske , it shall b● done for them ( to their brethren ) of my father which is in heaven . thus saint basil of old : if two shall aske by consent it shall be done : what this meaneth the processe of the place shewes ( saith he : ) for immediately before christ speaketh of him that reproveth his brother , and him that is reproved ; and if he that be reproved be grieved for his fault , and be joyned with the reprover in the same minde , the pardon which is asked shall be granted from our most gracious god. this i alledge ( as i could in this cause many other ) not because they like it : but because they may know that this sense is not a new one of my owne . i know that they runne a new and uncharitable way , for when they reade that christ promiseth not doing for them that aske , except they agree on earth : they peremptorily conclude , that they ought not to pray with them that doe not consent with them in their opinions . therefore would they neither pray with me , nor suffer me to pray with them to our good god to lead us us into the way of truth : nor will they pray with their owne wives and children , though never so pious , if they doe not meet in the same center of conceits . yea but ( say they ) all the text before must be understood of publike church scandals because of christs promise , where two or three be gathered together in my name , there am i in the midst of them : which is ever applyed to publike meetings . it is true : it is so applyed , and so may and must . for it holds strongly , that i● christ be present with private persons , who agree in building up one another in charity much more is he present in publike conventions where faith climbes , hope rootes , charity flames , and zeale burnes up corruption , when they are well used . but yet this proves not , but that here christ may treate of private scandals , as the whole context shewes , and may incourage brotherly prayers one for another in peace , because christ is present with them . but all this is but a flash to them yet : for this text must needes bee a rule of their perfect discipline in the body of their members : because the apostle blames the whole church of corinth , for not casting out of the incestuous person . that this is no perfect rule of discipline , may appeare to any man that will consider , that heere is no direction to proceed against sins against god , or others , but onely against thee , & thee . heere is no excommunication ordained : for it is not said , put him out from among you , but let him bee to thee for seeking further remedy . lastly , heere is no determining power given to the church ; for the party offended is principall to admonish , tell , fine . the church is not to excommunicate , but to turne the offender over to the offended party , let him be to thee , not to us : yea the church is not to call him by summons , but to expect the plaintiffes comming : and moreover , if heere were a perfect rule , it might fall out that two or three men , yea women , pretending to bee gathered in christs name , might cast out whole congregations for not consenting unto them . and for that place to the corinths , where saint paul is charged to countenance this their new parish discipline ; because hee blamed the corinthians that the incestuous person was not cast out : i answer , hee might have had just cause to blame them , if hee had committed any such thing to their trust , by devolving his authority to them : but that hee did not yet put over his authority to them in body , appeares divers waies . first , though the power of governement , in respect of use , belong to the whole church for benefit , that where the fact is notorious , the law might be notorious too , so as the whole church may bee witnesse of the doome , when they are gathered together : yet in regard of the possession for managing of it , it belongs onely to the pastors , and chiefe bishops . for when christ made that promise of binding and loosing to his disciples , hee did not make it to them as apostles properly : for it is no such personall priviledge as not to descend : it is needefull for the church in all ages , therefore not tyed to any . neither did he make it unto them as the body of christians : for when hee made good his promise , hee tells us that hee sent and inspired them , and after both these , gave this commission of binding and loosing : but hee sent not all , nor inspired all , as he signified by breathing upon the apostles . but he did it to them , as pastors , and chiefe bishops , and so to men of office for the use and comfort of the church for ever , and terrour of ungodly men . secondly , the persons to whom this authority of perpetuall governement of the church ( in ecclesiasticall way ) was committed , were the chief pastours ( as bishops were anciently called ) therefore if paul had fixed the blame in that particular upon any , it would have been upon the angel , and chiefe overseer of that church . for paul and christ are not of a severall spirit and judgement in church-discipline . thirdly , if therefore paul blame any for this , it is under the whole church , those that by office were to redresse these outrages , and to see to the holinesse , charity , and comelinesse of that church . but lastly , if wee looke into the words more narrowly , wee shall finde the true fault that hee blamed the church of corinth for . they had a common fame of such a wickednesse committed amongst them , that the gentiles by the light of nature did abhorre . paul ( having as yet supreame power ecclesiasticall under christ in his owne hand , and ( for ought we know ) not having setled a bishop in highest church governement , as in ephesus , creta , asia , ) did expect from them woefull complaints of this disorder , that hee might have directed thē accordingly , for the taking of it away from among them , with the author of it . but they were so farre from this , that they were puffed up with their owne gifts , and lamented not that wickednesse that raigned among them , that by d●e course it might bee removed . this therefore is that , which the apostle blameth in the corinthians . therefore that hee may shew them , that they are not so much to admire themselves , as to take off their eyes from the great faults committed against them , and that they are to lament , and doe their best , that such wicked persons might be taken away from among them , and not thrust out in a crowd : the apostle doth three things by authority i● the face of the church , who of conscience ought to consent and beare witnesse to the doome . first , the act of an apostle , deliver such an one unto satan ( it may be ) that he might have power over his body to torment him , as appeares in the stories of ananias , sapphira , elimas , alexander . secondly , the act of a bishop , put away from amongst you that wicked person , that being suspended from the preservatives of his soule in the visible communion of saints , he might have a way to bring him to godly sorrow . and thirdly , the act of every godly pastour , to mourne that if any be called a brother , and bee a fornicator , or covetous , or an idolater , or a rayler , or a drunkard , or an extortioner , with such an one eate not : that is , be so farre from countenancing of him in his sinne , that yee take him not into unnecessary familiarity . now , how from hence can be picked a popular government of the church , god knoweth , i cannot yet reach . but yet ( say the brownists ) you may reach thus much to confound you , that if paul would not have you eate with such wicked brothers , much lesse would he have you to receive the sacrament with them : for he hath more care of his owne supper than of ours . this is certaine that god hath a greater care of his own supper than of ours : and therefore though he be willing that all should come both good and bad , yet if they come , and stay bad , and hee come to try them , they shall bee bound hand and foot and cast into hell . it is certaine also that wee must have a great care of the supper of the lord as we can in our places ; private persons , by private communion of saints ; presbyters , by publike preaching by word and doctrine , and by private exhortations as they can ; and church-officers by presentments , and punishments fit . but it doth not therefore follow , because wee may not eate with them ( that is , converse familiarly and unnecessarily with them ) that therefor we may not eate the lords supper with the saints , because wicked persons are there . their wickednesse we countenance , when we keepe company with them : our goodnes they countenance , when they come into publike communion with us : we have no need of their eating with us , they shew their need of their eating with us in the sacrament , when we have no power to keepe them backe . yet ( say they still ) wee have power to keepe them backe : for paul speaking of the incestuous person saith , sufficient to such a man is this punishment which was inflicted of many ; therefore the whole church had power and used it against him . it is true , it was inflicted by many assessors and consēters to his doom , but not as prime executors of that doome . the apostle saith , that the saints shall judge the world , by way of life , witnesse , consent , and approbation ▪ yet is it not christ that is the judge of wicked and good ? so though this punishment was inflicted upon him by many , by way of consent , and approbation yet was it primely inflicted by paul , and his authority in those that declared it . thus have i satisfied my selfe ( if not others ) in this point concerning the power of governement , which lies not in all the congregation for execution and prime officiating , but in the chiefe governours who beare the place of paul and the other apostles . sect . 13. brownists exceptions against the persons governing in our church , and against the exercise of their governement . pvt case that the power of governement were not in every particular congregation , yet our governours are not to bee allowed , yea to be banished the church , say they . they are farre from the sweete moderate spirit of melancthon , one of the blessed reformers , who , so the pope of rome himselfe would have admitted of the gospel of christ in truth , would have permitted his superiority over bishops , by humane right , for the peace and common tranquility of christians under him . but nothing will serve these people but the damnation of the pope , and the shame and confusion of all bishops , one , and the other . and there are three things principally in them , at which they except , and against which they stumble : 1 their name . 2 their degree . 3 their jurisdiction . why ( say they ) should they appropriate to themselvs this name of bishops , which belongs to all other pastours as well as to them ? there is good cause ; for there are two sorts of bishops : first ordinary bishops , such as were all the elders of ephesus . these must not bee blinde watch-men : for if they see not , they cannot oversee . they must not sleepe and bee secure : they must have a great care to keepe safe those that are committed to them , that the enemy come not and sowe tares . secondly , there are extraordinary bishops , such as have precedence , & jurisdiction , not onely over the flock , but over the elders and presbyters , which are called angels ; such were timothy , and titus the first ordained bishops of the churches of ephesus and creta , as appeares in the postscript of those epistles . which though haply they are no part of the canonicall scriptures , yet are they authenticall records of matters of fact to help our understandings in the needfull stories of th●se times , without which we may think amisse . from these , they justly assume those names which have beene given to men of their order , ever since the apostles dayes . but put case they could not make such aclaime , if there be the office , shall we quarrell about the names ? the first man that ever found fault with the name , would fame have been a bishop himselfe ; but when he found himselfe crossed , he comforted himself with this , that yet , as he was a presbyter , he was equall with them . but let no good christians be unquiet for names , if there may bee an agreement in things named . the apostles were called deacons in gods language , yea , and christ himselfe , who came to that end . christ is called the arch-bishop , and the apostle of our soules . the apostles are called elders , and elders were called apostles , and bishops are called angels . what matters it then for names , if wee can agree in other things ? but ( say they ) wee doe not agree in other things : for these bishops are in a degree above presbyters , and so there is an unequall ministery in the church of christ which should not bee . now surely they have had this from the apostles dayes : yea the scripture mentioneth a superiority in the ministery of the church ▪ first apostles , secondarily prophets , thirdly teachers . and this is a sure rule , that such a ministery as is most like the ministerie ordained by christ ( it not being denyed unto us expressely , or by consequent , and another commanded ) may be lawfully maintained by us as christs ministery . but such is an unequall ministery in degree , as prophets , apostles , evangelists , pastours , and doctours , one above another in larger authority , & gifts : for those that were called immediately did excell those that were called by men . and among those that were called by men , where might bee a rising to an higher degree according as they profited in faith and godlinesse . therefore paul saith , that they that use the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree . therefore may wee lawfully maintaine a superiority in the ministery of christ now . but ( it may be ) they would not stand so much upon this , because ( for ought i can finde ) there is some inequality betwixt their pretended pastors and doctors ) ; but that there is a iurisdiction in our bishops , not onely over the flock , but over the compresbyters their brethren . it is true , there is so , and that justly ; without which , wee should have as many religions as parishes : and for that i say this . such jurisdiction as is patterned or prescribed in the epistles to timothy , and titus , is worthily exercised in our church of christ . if it bee said , that that jurisdiction was personal in them ; this takes away the comfort of doctrine in all the othe● epistles : for it may be as well said , that the rules of faith and doctrine in them are personall , and belong to that age . but as this cannot be said , so nor that : for those rules tended to the government of the house of god , and were to be kept to the appearing of our lord iesus christ . now that , that jurisdiction patterned or prescribed in those epistles was episcopal , appeareth thus . set aside matters matrimonial , and testamentary , which are the wise donation of princes for the conscionable ordering of such affaires , and the jurisdiction of bishops doth stand in two things principally , first in ordination , for the ordaining of ministers . titus was left in crete to ordeine elders : and the apostle would have timothy lay hands rashly on none , that is , ordaine . but ( say they ) these ordeined not as bishops , but as evangelists . but this they must prove that they were evangelists strictly so called . evangelists were immediately called , so wa● not timothy : for according to his good report , and the prophesies , that went of him for his great use of the church , hee was ordained by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery . yea , but ( say they ) that paul bids him doe the worke of an evangelist . true : but may they not as well prove timothy to be an apostle , because hee did the worke of the lord as paul did ? know therefore that evangelist may be taken three wayes : for a penner of the gospel by divine instinct ; so the apostles were evangelists . for a preacher of the gospel by divine instinct ; so they are accounted so properly . and for a preacher of the gospell by ordinary diligence and assistance : and thus timothy an evangelist may be a bishop to ordaine , though not properly as a preacher , yet as made a great overseer for that use . but ( say the brownists ) bishops claime ordination to themselves alone : so did not timothy and titus who did it with the eldership . whether these did it alwaies with the assistant presbyters is not yet proved , there being no set law knowne to us then , nor i doubt ever will. indeed , for our bishops , they ordaine deacons alone , and so they may according to ancient custome , and neither i , nor they , know any thing against it . but for the ordination of presbyters , as it was in the primitive church , so our lawes require that the bishop should have his assistants , the power of ordaining being in him , and the liberty of approbation in these . secondly , the jurisdiction of bishops stands in redressing things amisse . titus was left in creta to redresse things amisse , not onely in the people , but presbyters . over presbyters i say , they had a power to command , as paul saith to timothy , i left thee at ephesus that thou mightst charge some that they preach no other doctrine : to judge , therefore he saith , against an elder receive not an accusation under two or three witnesses , which was a juridicall proceeding : and to silence , as occasion is offered ; for whose mouthes must be stopped , saith paul to titus . which power , if it be onely by verball conviction , as every minister of the new testament is bound to doe as he is able , and not by reall suspension , as hee is over presbyters , the precept is altogether in vaine and idle . for words doe but breed words , and contentious spirits will never have an end . but ( say they ) the apostles would not suffer themselves to be silenced , no more should wee . if we cannot doe our office in publike , we should doe it private . this is true of the apostles , and they did well in it , but there are two sorts of preachers : such as were immediately called , who had their gifts , and matter , and calling , immediately from christ ; these none but christ can silence , they are his elect vessels as paul , to carry his name : and such as are immediately called , who have their matter and gifts by reading and industry , and their calling by , and from the testimony of man. now , because some mens sinnes goe before , and some mens follow after , they that gave power , and testimony according to appearance , may , according to after appearance , take testimony away from the unworthy , except they could prove themselves apostles . but yet ( say they ) grant all this true , yet are there divers exceptions against our bishops ? what ? such as may justifie a separation ? let us heare them . put case timothy and titus were bishops , yet were they not such as ours , that is diocesan bishops , what then ? were they parish bishops ? i wish them read in church stories of the best times , without which they can never understand some passages of scriptures of the practise of the church . i am sure this they should finde , that timothy and titus had some compasse of jurisdiction allotted , wherein there were churches at least according to cities , wherein there were many presbyters to be overseene , and ordered : and what was this but a diocesse , which as the church increased , increased with it . but these ( say they ) for all that , had no princely authority , and lordly command over their brethren . that is true : neither is this absolutely necessary to the calling , or of the essence of it ; yet doth it not overthrow it , but adorne and strengthen it when it is well used . if a bishop were called a beggar , it doth not overthrow his calling ; so neither , if he be called a pallace , who knowes not , that that proceeded from the favour of our princes , that they might be barons of the parliament to direct the conscience in deepe matters of state ? but ( say they ) this is against the word of god. be not lords over gods heritage , saith peter , and saith christ , the lords of the gentiles exercise dominion over them , and they that are great exercise authority over them : but it shall not be so among you : but whosoever wil be great among you , let him be your minister , and whosoever would be chiefe among you , let him bee your servant : therefore neither the apostles , nor their successors , must as lords rule over the flocke of christ , or over one another . stay heere : christ affoords no such conclusion . hee is pleased to oppose , not kings and bishops which are in excellent subordination either to other , but gentiles and christians : and he doth not abolish magistracy from christianity ; for then his apostles were ill schollars , who taught that higher powers are ordained of god , and that they must be obeyed by all under them : neither would he abolish an inequality of ministery in the church ; for hee himselfe ( i hope ) had superiority over his disciples ; ye cal me master , and lord , and ye say well ; for so i am : yea , and hee himselfe made first apostles , secondly prophets , thirdly teachers , which implies an order , degree , and subordination either to other : neither doth hee heere forbid that his disciples should bee utterly excluded from dealing in any matter of right in the common wealth ; for then they could easily have replied , lord wee desire not to meddle in secular affaires , but to have superiority over one another in the church . but hee labours to prevent the wicked customes of heathen kings in christian common-wealthes and churches , that is , their ruling by their owne lusts and wills , and their ruling for their owne ends without respect to the peoples goods . this is to play the lords , to domineere over the people , as if they were their vassals , and themselves had all lordship paramount that could bee imagined . now , can any man not soaked in malice or prejudice say , that our bishops rule thus like heathens with force and crueltie . when they governe according to the lawes , and canons of church and common-wealth ? is not this to rule with the consent of the people in the lawes of the common-wealth , and with the consent of the presbyterie in the canons of the church ? yea , but now for the exercise of this governement of the church , it is ( say the brownists ) fearefully abused by the bishops in three particulars : 1 in shouldering out such officers in the church as christ hath ordained . 2 in imposing oathes upon good men to accuse themselves . 3 and in base usage of the high censure of excommunication . put case all these were true : were this a sufficient cause of separation ? was christ no master when his purse-bearer betrayed him , and the rest of his servants runne away from him ? is his ●eamelesse coate to bee rent in sunder because some of those about him have cast some spots upon it ? because they may ( if they will ) accuse themselves , will they therefore accuse christ as if his bounty in our church were not worth the injoyment ? because one thing is not well used in the punishment of vice , shall all things be neglected , and spu●ned at that are amongst us for the maintenance of vertue ? yea shall the holy spirit of god assistant in the meanes of salvation amongst us , be belyed , as if all the grace they have gotten amongst us , were no grace till they had discarded us , as some of them doe ? but let us take a viewe of the particulars , and see whether it be so or no , and how far ? first ( they say ) that bishops justle out christs officers out of the church . and who are these ? they tell us first of elders , lay governing elders who should have power in the censures of the church and all matters of order . indeed they had wont to tell us of these much . but since master smith ( once of their church ) hath pulled downe that tottering wall , by proving that there can bee but one sort of elders proved from the scripture , that is , pastours , whose governing duty is to feede the flocke of god : and that the apostle to timothy , doth not import a distribution of officers , but commendation of severall workes in one office ; teaching that elders are to be honoured for two workes , well-ruling , and laborious teaching , as he proves by severall texts compared . and since they weigh that a true church may stand without them ; because otherwise the first church of christians from the death of christ till these supposed elders are ordained , were not a true church . and especially since they have brought in their new parish discipline , whereby all power of governement is in the whole congregation ; they are not backeward to confesse that a true church may be without them , and that they doe not much stand upon that exception against us ( as once a pastour of that church confessed to mee ) . therefore neede not i use more words about that . but yet they claime their doctours , and deacons , which ( they say ) the bishops have banished out of the church . indeed wee reade of doctors to teach the word of god : and if in every congregation ( if maintenance were answerable ) there were one in whom were the word of knowledge , and another in whom were the word of wisdome ( if these gifts meete not in one man ) wee would not mislike it . but that this must be so , as a distinct office and officer in the church , this we deny . for teaching and preaching may meete in the same officer ( whether pastour of charge , or doctour of the chaire ) . christ went about teaching , and preaching the gospel . paul and barnabas continued teaching , and preaching ; timothy must teach , and preach . and these the apostle doth not make severall offices : he disjoines them not , but couples them together , pastors and teachers ; to signifie , that though they bee divers gifts , yet they may be , and are often coupled in one man. and for deacons ( which is a name given to ministers , and to christ himselfe ) wee reade indeed of certaine men ( not called deacons there ) whose worke was to minister to the necessity of the saints , that the apostles be not driven to leave the word of god , and serve tables : but have not we such , who take care for the poore , that the worke of the lord by us be not hindred ? are not our church-wardens , and overseers the same for substance of office , if they would be also alwaies the same for conscience ? but ( say they ) wee have not the deacons of christ . i am sure we have deacons for the assistance of the worke of the ministery , who serve it for a better degree if they perofrme it wisely . but that deacons should be such brethren , who doe alwaies attend the businesse of the poore , and not belong to ministeriall order , is without ground : mark their qualification , which needed not for such a worke , men full of the holy ghost : mark their ordination , which was with imposition of hands , a ceremony ministerial : marke their practise , stephen preached , and philip preached , and baptized too : marke their description , they must be proved , and found fit , and if they performe their office well , they shall purchase to themselves a good degree , to ascend higher to be presbyters , yea and to be bishops also . and are not our deacons such ? were they not , yet can wee not bee denied to be a true church , seeing after the ascension , christ had a true church before deacons were thought of . put case bishops did no hurt this way , yet they impose oathes upon good men to accuse themselves , ( say they ) which is against the law of nature , justice , and religion . certainely nature is for the preservation of the whole body , and head , and so is justice , and religion too . if therefore such oathes are for the maintenance of the head , and body in publicke peace and tranquility , why they may not stand with nature , justice , and religion , i cannot see . if one man bee intrusted with another mans goods which perish , and he pretend that it be dead or stolne , then saith the law , an oath of the lord shall bee betweene them , and the loser shal accept it , or the wronger shal make restitution . what is heere but an imposing an oath upon a man to accuse , or excuse himselfe ? if a man trespassed against his neighbour , an oath was to be layed upon him to cause him to sweare before the altar , in gods house : yea , and if any person were concealed from the king , he tooke an oath of the kingdome and nation that they found him not as obadiah saith to elijah : what is heere againe but an oath imposed to excuse , or to accuse a mans selfe ? and what doe our bishops more then thus ? if iacob bound esau by an oath to secure that which he had bought of him . if salomon bound shime● by an oath to his confinement in ierusalem , because hee knew hee had a wicked heart against governement , from his grievous curse against david , to secure his peace , why may not our bishops ( having law in their hand ) secure the rights of the church , and peace of the state , by the like oath also ? how is it possible that the church and state can ever live securely , when false brethren come in privily to bring us into bondage ; when they creep into houses and lead captive simple women ; when certaine men creep in unawares , whose words eate as doth a canker , being closely conveyed , and having secret operations upon weake spirits , i say , how is it possible to bee safe from th●se , but by the oath of god to make them manifest ? a● when treason is detected , suspected , presumed , or fained , i hope no man thinke it unfit that the king , who is worth tenne thousand of us , should be secured by an oath , though it bee to the losse of thousands of lives : so ( nor i thinke ) can they judge it unfit that the church , the spouse of christ should be secured of her rights , and peace , by an oath ▪ though thousands doe suffer in goods , and liberty by it . but ( say they ) if bishops may be excused in former things , yet can they not in the base usage of the censure of excommunication , i am yet glad that they doe so highly account of it : for it is a fearefull censure indeed , when men by it are separated from publike communion , and fellowship with christ in his ordinances of salvation , and so bound and held under the guilt of sinne . too many doe too highly esteeme it ; and because some zealous men in former times have called the excommunication of the pope and his clergy ( when it was whetted against grace and the true worship of god ) a woodden dagger ; therefore they think that they may doe the like against ours . why not ( say the brownists ? ) seeing the bishops doe ingrosse it to themselves , when it is a common power to the whole church . they doe use it no otherwise than paul , who while hee kept that key in his owne hands , by his owne spirit and authority , cast out the incestuous person , as i have said before . nay , they doe not ingrosse it to themselves ; for they doe denounce it according to canons and rules which are made in synods and convocations of bishops and presbyters , gathered by the authority of their princes . but ( say they ) they are decreed by chancellors , commissaries , and officials . by them indeed as servants to the lawes and canons of the church under their jurisdiction , for execution . for the censures are not referred to them , or any , but according to lawes and constitutions , which they are sworn to execute justly and impartially . i thinke that they cannot blame this service of theirs , if they consider the originall . first bishops judged ecclesiasticall causes in person , under which burthen they groaned , and the church was deprived of other comforts . then , when causes increased by the increase of the church , and all ordinary cases were ruled by the canons of counsels , there was lesse need of bishops presence . and when matters of tythes , testamentary , and matrimoniall ( by the favour of princes ) were referred to ecclesiasticall cognisance , then such assistants were ordained , as by such study and industry were usefull to serve the church under bishops : and what hurt is here ? sweet servants indeed ( say they ) who having this spirituall sword in their hands doe thus abuse it . doe we not see indulgences , and pardons , by their absolutions , and suspensions of processes , flye abroad for money in their commutations , and purse penances ? as for indulgences , they are of two sorts , papall , and evangelicall ; the pope grants them out of papall authority , by way of mitigation of these satisfactions we owe to god : these we abhorre and disclaime as impious . but in our church they are granted , upon repentance and promise of amendment , by way of mitigation of that satisfaction wee owe to men offended by us . of these paul doth speake , sufficient to such a man is this punishment : yee ought to ▪ forgive him , lest he be swallowed up with too much sorrow . and if this be not regulated aright , the fault is in persons , not in this good order . it is true that this is granted when offenders doe but say to them , i am sorry , i repent , i will doe it no more : which though it be not enough to take off the merit of sinne before god , yet is it enough to take off the censure of excommunication . for this is a sure rule , that that which is enough to constitute an outward member of the visible church , is enough to admit a wounded member into the outward priviledges of it . and for purse penances and commutations , of which you speake , let it be considered that it hath some ground in the word of god. for if there may bee a commutation by the purse for murther ( as ye may see in the law of the owners oxe killing a man , as i have said ) why not for lesse matters when it is well regulated ? yea but ( say they ) doe we not see more abominations yet ? is not power , by their dispensing of excommunications , taken from churches , to remove scandals , and purge out wicked livers , to the annoyance of the kingdome of christ ? put case wee had not power to remove scandals , must they therefore separate ? if they abstained from the approbation of sinne , and labored to supply the defect of this power by holinesse of life , might they not thus judge the world , and continue in our fellowship with glorious comfort ? put case we had no power to purge wicked livers , must they presently say , depart from me , i am holier than thou ? they should beare onely their owne burthens in sinne , and one anothers burthen by compassion , toleration , charity , and meeknesse . by rash separation the correction of the wicked is not furthered , but hindred : for when they see themselves contemned , they are put further from the kingdome of heaven , and made sevenfold the child of hell more , to the hazzard of all . but the truth is we have excellent power for both these workes . though not in all the members of every particular congregation , as they meane ; for then no man could perish in the gaine-saying of core , whose mutiny was because he could not be equall to aaron , whom god appointed his superiour : yet have wee it in every diocesse , where lawes are made not by one but many , for the ruling of all under them . and if persons were not sometimes in fault more then offices ( who yet seeme worse through the impetuous carriages of those that speake evill of governement , and thinke it as easie to rule multitudes , as a few in a parlour ) wee might be easily as happy in our power as all the churches under heaven . then , i pray , tell me ( say they ) the reason of two things ; why ungodly men are not cast out ? and why your excommunication is thundred against good men , meaning solution . 1 themselves ? the reason of the first is because good canons are not observed . were bishops never so good , and their officers never so carefull under them , yet if church-wardens , that should , upon the oath of god , present scandals , thinke thus ; i shall be accounted a troubler of my neighbours , our presentments come to nothing , but to make the court rich , to present the poore , brings but charge to the parish , meaning his owne purse , no man can observe all the canons , or it is better , to punish them before the civill magistrate out of prejudice to courts of spirituall judicature ; then is it impossible , be the governement never so good that wicked men should bee cast out . but if church-wardens be as the house of cloe to paul to give true information and to open the eyes of the not-seeing judge , they shall soone heere , as of that incestuous person , cast them out . but the truth is , this question neede not be moved by them , seeing they see more cast out in our churches , then in the churches of corinth , whereof choise of wicked members we heare onely of excommunicating onely one beast . to the second quaere i answere , because it solution . 2 may fall out so in all the societies in the world , that a good man may not be a good citizen , nor a good member of a visible church . if then they are cast out it is not for goodnesse , but because they are not good enough . there is a double goodnesse , a certaine goodnesse , and a controversal goodnesse , which is so judged of some good men , but not so of others as good as they . no good man is cast out by us for certaine goodnesse , but for controversal , which ends in stirres and tumults , and then , i would they were cut off that trouble you saith paul. againe there is a double goodnesse , in the thing it selfe , and in the carriage of it : as iobs cause was good , yet he carried it badly , and therefore before god received him to his favour , he was driven to abhorre himselfe and repent in dust and ashes . no man by us is cast out for any good thing , but for his undiscreet and bad carriage of it . a man doth not onely love the meate , but the dressing of it , so doth god the manner , as well as the matter , and so doth the church . if therefore the carriage of goodnesse end in faction , and turbulency , the actours , happly , may bee justly cast out for a time to make them more humbly wise . yea but ( say they ) such good men as were persecuted for our consciences by the bishops and their instruments , with their curses , and prisons , when wicked men are spared . it may fall out so justly in three cases : when wicked men confesse their faults , and they deny them , when there is publicke cognisance by a cleare and open law against their faults , and not against the other . and thirdly , when one disturbs the publike peace of the church more then the other . for ( as it is well said ) in a common-wealth some smaller offence hath heavier punishment , as breaking open a poore cottage where no goods are lost , or person hurt , then the stealing of some cattell , which haply are more worth , because the publike tranquility and peace of subjects is more hurt : so also is it justly in the church when publike peace is in hazard . but is the sinne of separation so great , that it should be punished more then blasphemy , perjury , whoring , drunkennesse , say they ? all these and other sinnes are detestable , and by all lawes fall under great censures , and finde not the spirit of meeknesse but the rod , when the sleepy consciences of officers will present them in due course of law. yet the sinne of separation is very great . it makes men throw durt in their mothers face , and defile their fathers and brethren . it stands and pleads it own justification in despight of government , whereas the other are selfe condemned wretches . it sowreth many quickly under shew of holinesse , whereas the other are abhorred by a naturall conscience . it begets divisions which breed thoughts of heart , and proud contentions , whereas none will contend in defence of the other ; yea , it shakes the hearts of men in religion , making them to doubt whether any religion be good . for while they see these that are reputed good men to be so divided , the adversary triumphs , the scoffer mockes , but the serious christian , that knowes he must have a religion to bring him to heaven , knowes not which way to take . his body is in one church , his soule in another , his opinion in neither , but as the wind of affection , and the tide of well pleasing persons carry him ▪ whereas the other move him not one foo● in religion . for religion gives holy and good principles . if they be not sucked into make men better , it is not because religion is naught , but because those that professe it are too bad , as they will know in the day of our lord iesus . weigh but this throughly , and you will not blame bishops for the punishment of the vaine sinne of separation . but put case ( say they ) that they did well in all their former use of excommunication , yet when they make it base and vile in excommunicating for triviall and unworthy causes , as fees , and small portions of money to be paid by them that are not able to pay , in this they sinne against the kingdome of christ . indeed if it be so through bishops faults , now verily there is a fault . i know no bishop in our church but would willingly redresse it . if there be a defect any where it is in law , not in bishops courts . if there were any common law for the poore minister to recover his offerings , and other petty dues ▪ for the officers of courts to procure their fees , whereof both must live or sterve , would they ever run to the dreadfull sentence of excommunication ? it proceeds not from any order or sentence of our bishops , but from a meere want of other law , for which i hope they will not separate from the common-wealth ; get some law to recover their rights other wayes , and then excommunication shall shine in its glory . yet , in the meane time , thus much ( i am sure ) may be said , to quiet a tender conscience . a man askes his dues , and it is denied : so hee that denies it , is an unrighteous person . he askes it againe , and it is denied in choller : so , he that denies , is a contentious person ; hee askes it againe , and hee is reviled : so hee that doth so is a reviler . now , the holy ghost saith , that contentious persons shall have indignation , and wrath , tribulation , and anguish : that unrighteous persons , theeves and revilers , shall not inherit the kingdome of god. therefore they are bound in heaven while they are so . is not this reciprocall then , those that are bound in heaven , should upon due conviction , bee bound on earth , and those that are so bound on earth , shall bee bound in heaven ? but these that will not pay just fees , dues , if they bee able , upon conviction , and contumacy , are bound in heaven : therefore upon their contumacy th●y may lawfully bee excommunicate . yea but ( say they ) the bishops officers should have no fees at all in spirituall cases . should they not live ? so it may bee , some would , that would doe what they list . but when they spend their time and strength in rectifying disorders as they can by law , shall they have no reward ? indeed it were a gracious thing , if there were a common treasury to maintaine them that they might heare no more of , they eate up the sinnes of the people : yet because they must bee maintained one of these two wayes ; either out of the common purse of the innocent , or out of the purses of the guilty . iudge whether it be more equal that one man should spend for another mans sinne , or that a man that will sinne should be driven to spend for his owne ; that if he feare not sinne , yet at the least he may feare the weakning of his purse . and thus ( at the last , by gods blessing ) have i done with the first general plea of the brownists against us , that we are no true church . we have all their pleas , about the nature of a true church , the enterance into a true church , the head of a true church , the members of a true church , and the government of a true church . in al which , thorough christs assistance , i have so cleared our church , and shewed the vaine singularity of theirs , that , if they will not come to us , yet wee shall keepe where we are , and not forsake the fellowship in our assemblies . sect . 14. the brownists second opinion upon ▪ which they forsake our church , because we have not a true ministery . we are now ( by gods favour ) come unto their second opinion , upon which they ground their separation from us to be just , and necessary ; that we have not a true ministery , and therefore ( alasse ) they pitty me and others of my brethren . they doe , or should know , that the best ministery , now , is the opening and applying the word by them that are sent , that which paul saith of prophecying , that it is a speaking unto men for exhortation , edification , and comfort , is this same with the best ministery . and if they that doe it be sent , then surely it is right as it should bee . now , to the sending of this ministery there must bee three acts : the act of christ ; the act of the church ; and the act of the parties sent . to christ all authority and power is given , and he useth a double act : an immediate act when he doth , in calling , extraordinarily fit men with knowledge , and power to do his work , so he fitted the prophets , apostles , and evangelists . a mediate act , when he doth it the ordinary way , by meanes , and degrees . men ( by his grace ) take heede to doctrine , and to themselves , give attendance upon reading ; and attaine to these foure things : integrity of life , by which they get a good report even of those that are without : soundnesse in christian doctrine ; by which they are able to teach , exhort , reprove , correct , and instruct those committed to them . dexterity in teaching , by which they are apt to teach , and communicate their knowledge to others . and lastly , willingnesse , by which they feed the flocke of god willingly and of a ready minde , out of love and zeale to christ . of all these no ordinary man can judge : but hee that findes them in himselfe may say , i thank god , i find this act of christ in sending me which opens the doore . the act of the church is the porter that doth let us in : and stands in foure things , presentation , probation , ordination , and election . presentation is when those that are to be called are presented . thus the disciples presented or set before the apostles ioseph , barsabas , and matthias ; as after they set before them the deacons that were to be called . probation is a triall of their gifts and life : as paul saith , let them first bee proved , and then let them minister if they be found worthy . ordination is when they are consecrated and set apart with imposition of hands , and prayer . thus paul and barnabas ordained the elders in every church , and titus was left in creta for this end . election and calling is when they are assigned for execution of their office to their particular titles and allotments , as matthias to his apostolicall jurisdiction , and timothy , and titus to episcopall in ephesus and creta ; which election though it may bee conceived to goe before ordination in respect of the office to which they are elected , yet not in respect of the execution of it in their particular places . the act of the party sent , is a desire of the office for the glory of god , and a purpose to spend and to be spent upon that service . they must have ( ordinarily ) a desire of their office , and to addict themselves to the ministery of the saints as the house of stephanas . if it seeme to be unlawfull for a man to desire it , because moses and ieremy were unwilling to undertake such high service ; and all the apostles were called without their owne seeking , and above their desires ; yea and some ancient worthies have been found to hang backe when such offices have beene tendred ? yet when wee consider the willingnesse of esay , here am i send me , we must learn to judge aright . if any desire it when they are not meet and qualified , it is a wickednesse against justice and charity : against justice in taking the hire when hee is no labourer ; and against charity in not feeding the soules committed his trust . if any qualified man desire it in a wicked way , as ambitions suit , slavish flattery , or the like , it is stained to them who make gaine their godlinesse . but if they desire it out of notice and testimony of sufficiencie to bee christs instruments ( as they are able ) to further the worke of the lord , and the salvation of souls , as esay , it is both just and charitable . it is a worthy worke , and full of charity , and to bee desired : yea god moves the heart of some to it , and he never doth that to what is unlawfull . as for moses , ieremy , and some others , it proceeded out of a too backward modesty , upon conscience of their owne unworthinesse : and as for the apostles their case was different ; they knew of no such service to be done , and therefore they could not desire it . againe , the partie sent hath a purpose to spend , and to be spent in the service of christ . they know it to bee a worke ; yea , and to bee a worthy worke too ; because hee never laboureth without christ his lord and master : hee laboureth for the saving of soules , in whose hearts they have honour , as well as with god in christ : and therefore hee resolves to say as paul , i will very gladly spend , and bee spent for you , though the more abundantly i love you , the lesse i bee loved . this they doe or should know to make up the best ministery of christ . but ( say they ) where is this to be found ? certainly in our church , in those that are sent according to the true meaning of our lawes and canons both ecclesiasticall and temporall . it is their true intent and meaning , that none should enter ( when they can be had ) but such as are such and thus qualified . if it bee otherwise , it falls out as betwixt ahimaaz and cushi : ahimaaz was forward and would goe carry newes to the king : ioab denyes him , and sends cushi ; yet ahimaaz presseth , and would goe , and went with much a doe , and came to the king first . but when hee came there , hee could onely say , i saw a tumult , but i know not what . it was cushi that did the message to purpose , who was the messenger intended . so in the intention of our lawes and governours , the best able , instructed , and worthy should still be sent : but when they are deluded with unworthy presentations ; false testimonies , seeming appearances of learning and gravity , ( for some mens sinnes goe before , some follow after ) and with popular importunities , which seldom proves to the best , the least worthy runne fast●st , to the scandal of good lawes , and blessed orders . but for all this , why should wee not have a true ministery ? o no ( say the brownists ) , excuse what you can , you have not the true ministery of christ . indeed we have not prophets , apostles , and proper evangelists : but have we not past●rs and teachers ? look upon christs formal markes of true shepheards . first , they are not the ministers of the pope of rome that spiritual babilonian ; no more are wee . they are proper sacrificing priests for the quicke and the dead , so are not wee . they are his by doctrine , oath , obedience , which ●s the true marke of a servant : so are not wee . they are imbraced by him as his sonnes , we are disclaimed , and persecuted by him with fire and fagot . if wee were of him he would love us , for the wor●d love her owne . secondly , they publish sound doctrine , which is the trial of a true minister . such as stand not in his counsel , and declare not his word , are not sent of god as they should : but if they bee nourished up in the words of faith , and of good doctrine , to which they have attained , of which they put the brethren in remembrance , i hope they are true pastours . it is true that all truth is not sit at once ; there must be first milke , then stronger meate : and ordinary pastours have not all truths so revealed as they cannot erre in sōething : yet if they walk according to the same rule , minding the same thing , and humbly expect , though they bee otherwise minded then some other of their brethren , in some things , till god reveale even that unto them , by the scriptures , and publicke discussions , and lawfull definitions of the church , i hope they are the true ministers of christ . thirdly , they have the true properties of a good shepheard given by christ . they goe in by the doore , that is , jesus christ who calleth them by his church . the porter openeth to them , that is , not the wh●le house , multitude , and congregation ; this cannot but bee a vaine dreame : but partly the holy ghost who openeth to them by gifts , and partly the governours of the church , who are delegated under christ for their admittance . they call their sheep by their names , labouring to know the state of their flocks , that they may draw out of their treasury things , both new , and old , and minister to them according to their need . they lead them forth , from pasture to pasture , from milk to strong meate , that they may be sat and wel-liking before christ . for though many of their people are ignorant and wicked ( because they will not come to christ that they may be saved ) yet as the shepheard leades his cattell to greene pastures and waters , though they will not eat or drink of them : so our good ezekiels are leaders of their people , though the wicked , that follow not , perish . and lastly , they goe before their flockes , in sound doctrine and good life , both according to the intention of our church in sending them , and very often in plaine examples . and are not these true ministers that doe thus ? fourthly , they have an ordinary and daily assistance of christ for the converting of soules . for though it cannot be said of every particular true minister : for i have laboured in vaine and spent my strength for nothing , said esay ; the bellowes are burnt , the lead is consumed , the founder melteth in vaine , for the wicked are not plucked away : yet is it true , of a true ministery of a church , in generall ; for if they stand in gods counsell , and declare his word to gods people they shall turne them . and is it not thus with our ministery ? hath not the gospel beene the power of god by it to many that have beleeved it ? can they not truly say , in christ iesus wee have begotten thousands through the gospel ? let it be said , that our ministery hath converted none from heathenisme and judaisme to christianity , as the apostles did ; yet hath it beene by christs blessing , powerfully sealed by plucking away thousands from lewd courses , by no compulsion , but by the feare of god wrought by the preaching of the hammer and fire of the law and gospel , by us ; and by converting them to holinesse of life . if it be said that none can be converted but infidels , such as the apostles converted in the first planting of the churches of the gentiles : it is certaine that it is as true a conversion from any sinne to sanctification , as from infidelity to faith . for iohn baptist was sent to turne the disobedient iewes : and peter after his fall was to be converted : and ephraim was to say , turne thou me and i shall be turned : and the remnant of iacob was to returne to the mighty god. but ( say they ) this may be done by private persons , as by the woman of samaria , and by the good wife , who winnes her husband by her conversation . who doth doubt that as the base carriage of christians doth make religion blasphemed : so the faire carriage of thē doth win aliens to like it ? who doubts but the perswasions of others may draw men to christ or his followers to bee informed in good wayes ? who doubts of aquilas and priscillas taking apollos ( a man mighty in the scriptures ) and making him understand the wayes of christ better ? yea and christ ( if hee please ) may use them as meanes for thorow conversion . but what is christs ordinary way ? hee hath now given pastors and doctors , not onely for the setting of the saints in joynt , and edifying of the body of christ , but for the worke of the ministery : and what is that ? it is to open mens eyes , and to turne them from darknesse to light , that they may receive forgivenesse of sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctif●ed by faith in christ . therefore our ministery having done thus , are not these true ministers ? no ( say the brownists ) and therefore doe they make exceptions against us . they like not our ordainers , our titles , our callings , our infirmities , nor our maintenances : therefore we are not true ministers . let us follow them with christs light . it is as if they should have said , though we cannot overthrow the substance of your ministery , yet we reject you because of the circumstances of it , as the children of israel who could not out-face elishaes calling from god , yet could in scorne say come up thou bald-pate , thou art not without thy blemish , till the beares stopt their mouthes . let them take heede . if a king have all the substance of right and kingshippe , yet if in his inauguration hee have not a pleasing ●nnointer , title , acclamation , maintenance , or have some infirmities , is hee not a right king ? i doubt , if these spirits had power in their hand , neither true king , nor true priest , nor true people , should scarcely be found to stand before them . but to the particulars . they say , wee are ordained by bishops , who are ( as they are such ) the very limbes of antichrist . that they are the blessed governors of our church , according to the patterne , and rules apo●tolicall , of timothy and titus , i have shewed before . and by whom should wee be ordained but by such ? can a good man dreame that the body of a people of men , and women , have a power to ordaine and consecrate presbyters , when if he runne thorough the whole new testament , he can never find but bresbyters ordained by presbyters ? if ours bee bishops , yet they are presbyters and more . they have an order , and jurisdiction , by right above us , as titus in creta , yet i hope , that doth not exclude presbytership from them . the inferiour orders may stand alone , but the superiour comprehends all . a bishop may reade , administer sacraments , and doe other offices of the inferiour orders , and often doth : whereas the other inferiour offices have no jurisdiction over their brethren , where the blessing of bishops may by the favour of times , and princes bee setled according to the word of god. that which is their weapon heere , i suffer to runne unto my heart , not to wound it , but to comfort it : that i have not beene brought up in other churches , to receive my ordination from the presbytery ( which yet is good in case of necessity , when our way cannot be had ) : but that i have received it by the hand of a bishop , as well as presbyters , which makes the practises and rules of scriptures about ordinations the lesse defective , the more compleat . but these bishops of ours ( say they ) doe ordaine us priests , which is not a ministery of the new testament . and what if we be so called in our ordination ? is it so contemptible a name which is put upon all christians , both kings and beggars ? may not we be called so as ministers , as well as we , and they too as christians ? indeed , popish priests had an ill name , when they ruled our people , which made it a name of disgrace : and proud and scornefull people will cast it upon us , with disgrace , who doe deserve better : but by christs helpe , i shall never bee ashamed of that name which i must labour to answer in my office , if i will bee found faithfull . christ as a priest maketh intercession ; and i as a priest must pray for my people , as paul did often . christ as a priest did offer a sacrifice ; & i as a priest must minister the gospel of god , that the sacrificing of my people may be acceptable , as paul of the gentiles . and why should any bee offended at that name by which the holy ghost calls us ? for when esay speaketh of the ministers of the new testament , hee saith , of them will i take for priests , and levites ; saith the lord. what matters it what wee are called , so long as wee offer no idolatrous sacrifice , but onely in our office commemorate the sacrifice of christ , and doe other services for his honour ? put case wee may bee priests in name , and presbyters indeed , yet ( say they ) wee are not called by the people , whose souls we feed , but are put upon them by lawes and canons . this is in part true , but not fully : for while presbyters are put into parishes by law , they come unto them by their owne consent . for have not the people chosen knights , and burgesses to draw up , and to consent to lawes for them ? and have not presbyters chosen clarkes , synodically to meete , to make rul●s and canons for them ? and doe not both these settle presbyters in every parish . therefore they are inducted by all ministers and peoples consent . but put case it were fully true , were wee not therefore true ministers ? did we never heare of a man and woman that were married together against the will of one party ( by the power of parents ) who yet , being married , were true man and wife , and by an after combining , lived lovingly together ? so may it bee in this case : a free consent of minister and people after , in the true worship of god may supply and make up that defect . but is it certaine that the people have such a right in calling their presbyters ? let us looke into the sure word of god. i see the right of christian magistrates in choosing them unto their places . take thou unto thee aaron for the priests office , saith god : and thus did moses . see also how david did sort , and divide the priests and levites for their severall workes . did not solomon by soveraignety deprive abiathar , and induct zadoch , yea and appoint the priests and levites to their severall service , as david ? did not hezekiah the same , and that not by instinct , as a type of i know not whom , but still after the example of david , who was not checked for it ? why then should our christian kings lose their rights , which they partly execute by themselves , and partly according to the lawes by their delegates , and officers , both in church , and common-wealth ? it is true , we may reade of the people to have some hand about church officers in the scriptures , as when matthias was chosen , and when the deacons ( as they call them there ) were : yea and in after times too , till uproares , tumults , and seditions followed for want of those graces , which the people in the apostles times had : but let them duely weigh , that christ hath left no precept for that , no nor established practise in all churches . yea , such elections never were but when the apostles were present with them , yea the people must be confessed then to have extraordinary gifts ( they were baptized , and the holy ghost came upon them ) and so to bee able to be assistant in choyce . yet these people did never assume it as a right in themselves , but come to it upon the apostles exhortations for the time being . how slender therefore are such grounds , which fell out in unimitable cases , and when there was no christian magistrate , to carry with them a continued right , let good consciences guided by the word of god , judge ▪ i know not what the brownists will say to this ; but i am sure they loade us with fresh burthens which presse us downe from being a true ministery , at least in the guilty . they finde in many of our congregations wicked and ignorant priests , who pollute the whole worship of christ ; and are these the true ministers of christ ? they are true ministers of christ , if they minister the things of christ truely : true word , true sacraments , true prayers according to the measure of the gift of christ. there is a difference betwixt a good man and a true man : so betwixt a good minister and a true minister . i wish from my soule that this distinction need not : and that all presbyters and bishops were both unreproveable in life , and able to teach ; that so neither brownists nor atheists may have occasion to stumble at them . but so long as satan and hypocrisie are in the church , there will bee such annoyances : yet gods people must not abhorre the sacrifices for the wickednesses of elyes sonnes ; if they doe they sinne as god hath said . put case they be wicked priests , yet may they performe the true service of christ . iesus disciples baptized sufficiently ( i hope ) and iudas was one of them , yet himselfe was a divell . the priests and levites of old offered sacrifices , celebrated sacraments whereby the faithfull had their faith confirmed , yet too many of them were too wicked . christs ordinances have their efficiencie from him , not from them that serve about them . the garden may bee watered and made fruitfull by water that runs thorow a woodden gutter , yet that not a whit the better , but the worse for it . the sunne may give us comfortable light thorow a sluttish and noysome window , yet that never the better by it . the field may bring forth a goodly crop though sowed with a durty hand . the bell may call us to the church though it never enter it selfe but by the sound . the well may yeeld excellent water though it have much mud . therefore though such preachers are odious , yet how can the people refuse the holy things of god which come truely from them . they will if they deserve hanging , receive the kings pardon whosoever writes or brings it to them . they have deserved worse , hell , will they refuse the seale of a pardon from a wicked priest ? put case they be ignorant priests ( though , blessed be god , that cloud was never better blowne over ) i hope they know how to preach the word and administer the sacraments truely . the disciples were not such excellent clearkes when they baptized . though they were initiated in christs schoole , examine whether they did not doe it before they were sent to preach : they baptized before iohn was cast into prison : and christ did not begin to preach himselfe publikely before iohn was imprisoned , and after that he sent his disciples to preach : what they were that went with peter to cornelius let them certainly tell me . the text calls them certaine brethren ; yet when peter had preached to cornelius and those about him , hee commanded them to be baptized : who baptized them ? as yet there was no communion betwixt the faithfull and the gentiles , and onely certaine brethren went with peter , and no deacons chosen but them at ierusalem . i doubt they will not find such clearkship in them . thus i answer them , not to uphold an ignorant ministery , i abhorre it from my soule : or to beare with private persons medling with the holy things of god ; for our church government is against it . but partly because the word saith , that god hath set in the church helps or helpers to be assistant in reading and in ministring of the sacraments to teachers , and partly because none should thinke no sacraments true sacraments , except administred by learned clearkes fully able to teach . but now , to let all things passe which are gone for this time , the brownists will have about with our ministery if it be but for our maintenance . our maintenance is a jewish and ceremoniall maintenance ; namely , tythes , which are fitter for the ministers of antichrist , whose religion hath a mixture of judaisme in it , then for the ministery of christ . they will not deny that they that preach the gospel , should live of the gospel : this christ hath ordained , and not man. nor will they deny that the apostle proves by the law and leviticall practice , that the ministers of the gospel must have maintenance from the church . neither will they deny that he that laboureth in the word and doctrine is worthy of double honor , & must be communicated unto by him that he teacheth in all good things : but yet they doe not love to heare of these iewish tythes . i would aske them this one question : they say they must doe nothing about the worship of god , or for the support and maintenance of it , but what they must have a particular warrant from the word of god for . well then , seeing god doth require that pastours should bee maintained honourably by a communicating in every good thing , let them tell me , how they will satisfie their consciences in the particular quantity they must bestow upon them : some men will say one thing , some another , but how will conscience be satisfied , that it may dye in the peace of justice and charity ? the scripture speakes not of any other particular quantity but the tenth part , what therfore else can satisfie conscience that it erre not ? but ( they will say ) that ●thes are jewish ceremonies which are abo●ished . it is easie to say so , but not so easie to prove . for jewish ceremonies are shadowes of things to come , the body whereof is christ . let them shew from gods word that tythes are so accounted . i am sure than god blames the faulty performance and resting in ceremonies : but hee never blameth the neglect of ceremonies , as of tythes , when hee saith , ye are cursed with a curse , for yee have robbed me , even this whole nation , in not paying tythes . yea we never read that ever christ said so much of any jewish ceremony as of tythes , these things ought ye not to leave undone . if it be said , that this maintenance cannot be proved out of the new testament . i say , that this wil trouble any man to prove : for when paul proves out of the law , that the ministery of the new testament hath maintenance due , doth he not say , ( so ) hath the lord ordained , that hee that preacheth the gospel should live of the gospel ? and how is that ? as they of old lived at the altar by tythes , so we now . againe , doth not the apostle say , that tythes are due to the ministery of christ that lives , because they were due to melchizedech , to whom abraham payed them as a priest , and tythe-taker , and type of christ ? who therefore should receive them , but those that are in his stead to beseech you to be reconciled unto god ? the same reason that god gives why levi should have gods portion , ( because god is his portion ) is it not true , of ministers whom alone hee hath taken to bee ministers of the new testament ? it is true , they are not priests after the order of melchizedech , as christ was , yet the high-priest of our profession , hath ordained us to live out of his portion , which must bee his tythes due to him , or else our consciences can never bee setled what it is . let them duely weigh this , and when they can salve it up well , as in the sight of god , then may they heare of much more ; we hate judaisme as much as they , but we cannot beare that title , except it be inflicted by christ himselfe . and thus ( by the helpe of god ) i have cleared their second exception , upon which they separate , because wee are not a true ministery . sect . 15. the brownists last opinion upon which they forsake our church , because wee have not a true worship . we are now come ( thorough christs helpe ) unto their last exception against us ; which concernes the worship of god amongst us , as if wee had not a true , but an idolatrous worship of the true god. this they doe so much detest ( and so do we too , if they can prove it ) that they cannot with any good conscience have communion with us in it . doe not wee cleave to the onely true god , by knowledge , repentance , faith , feare , love , confidence , joy , thankfulnesse , patience , and adoration ? doe wee not know god to bee the onely true god , and therefore give him his true worship in spirit and truth , according to his word ? doe we not pray to him knowingly , faithfully , zealously , penitently , and obediently desiring to be made better ? doe we not preach and heare his word carefully , and reverently , desiring to know , and doe ? doe wee not administer the sacraments of christ , and receive them with a desire and purpose to enter covenant with god to bee his people , and keepe it unto our lives end ? doe we not in all these lament our defects , and others , labouring to helpe what we can , and what we cannot patiently suffer ; and lovingly mourne till christ in the day of judgement fanne away the chaffe ? doe we not publickely solemnize the lords day , that in the publicke use of gods ordinances wee may learne to bee better , and doe better till wee come to the full age in christ jesus ? how then can it be imagined that wee should not have a true worship ? yes ( say the brownists ) your worship is ceremonial , typical , and stinted , contrary to christs will , who would have you worship him in spirit and truth . first they say it is a ceremonial worship ; will no worshippe please them , but a slovenly one , unbecomming the person of that god whom wee worship ? if our ceremonies were part of the worship , as they of the jewes , or proper worship , as many are reputed in the church of rome , then they might talke aloud : but when they are but outward accidents for the well and orderly carriage of the worship of god , what hurt is in them ? will it grieve any man to see christians to worship their god in an humble , comely , and reverend way ? nay would it not vexe any good soule to see them to doe otherwise . they say , that christ was more faithfull in the house of god then moses . if therefore moses prescribed gods worship onely according to the patterne given , much more doth christ , to which it is wickednesse to us to adde . indeed christ is more faithfull then moses : for the law was given by moses , but grace and truth by iesus christ : moses gave a perfect shadow of our reconciliation under types , but christ gives a perfect body which hath nothing but truth in him , and not a shadow of things , as the things of moses . but what is this to decent ceremonies , which are not types and shadowes of christ , and his but onely documents , and signes of our humble and reverend respects to god ? as faithfull as moses was , yet even then had the jewes ceremonies of order , and comlinesse , which were not disallowed by god , or reprooved by his prophets . there are two sorts of ceremonies : such as corrupt the worship of god , and such as doe preserve by advancing the worship of god. if they had made any types of christ which god had not made , they had corrupted the worship of god , as the brownists doe ; who when we tell them of the acts of the kings of iudah ▪ about the worship of god , they presently ( without the warrant of god ) tell us that they were types of christ . they may 〈◊〉 well say that the kings of other nations were types of christ too : because the jewes were to have kings according to other nations . but when the devout jewes did by their owne ceremonies , labour to carry the worship of god in the most becomming way , in this they did preserve the worship of god by advancing it . thus salomons peace-offering was commanded , but his advancement of that service was permitted to himself , when he offered two & twenty thousand oxen , and an hundred and twenty thousand sheep . did he now goe against the faithfulnesse of moses , when he commanded it not ? did hre not likewise honour god with the solemnity of seven dayes , and seven daies without particular warrant ? he was commanded to pray , but when hee added this ceremony of his owne ( fit for that time of jubilation ) to stand before the altar , and spread forth his hands toward heaven , did hee corrupt the worship of god because moses commanded it not ? if princes hold their people faithfully to them , to serve god and the king , this is commanded them , as the law is committed to them : but if ioshuah doe it by setting up a stone in shechem ; if asa doe it by an oath , and if nehemiah doe it by subscription , who hath required it ? is moses unfaithfull ? are not these things permitted to them and us ? to remember gods benefits is commanded : but for mordecai and the iewes to doe it by the feast of purim , who hath required it ? was it not onely permitted ? so it is with us : wee have precepts and permissions under generall rules . in conscience to the precepts wee preach and heare the word , wee administer and receive the sacrament , wee pray both publikely and privately : but in conscience to the permission , we heare and preach from the pulpit , or from none , with one in a gowne , or cloake , in white , or in blacke : wee receive standing , sitting , or kneeling ▪ we pray standing , lying , or sitting , as necessity and order is put upon us by god and our superiours , and as the worship of god may bee best advanced : and what hurt is heere ? but ( say they ) these permissions are put upon us by peremptory lawes contrary to our christian liberty . by a law indeed they are bound to them with us , but not contrary to christian liberty : for then titus was in vaine left in creta to set in order things that are wanting , if christians in the outward carriage of things might doe what they list . therefore i wish them brotherly to consider something concerning ceremonies , and something concerning christian liberty . ceremonies may be considered two wayes : before a law hath bound this or that way ; and after the bond of a law. before , they may have not onely variety , but contrariety , and yet not displease god. one eateth , another eateth not , yet god receiveth both : one esteemeth one day above another , another esteemeth every day alike , yet if they bee charitable , and fully perswaded in their own hearts , god is not displeased . but when a law hath passed upon them , those things that are permissions in themselves are precepts in their use : as when the church decreed the abstaining from stranguled and bloud , so long as was convenient for the churches of the iewes . as god loves that we should keepe the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace , in one faith : so paul joyes when hee beholds the order among the colossians , that all their things were done in love . so long as wee are free , wee are like the daughters of zelophehad , who , so they kept within their owne tribe , might marry whom they pleased : so wee may looke which way we please , and settle according to our pleasure . but when the law of expediency is put upon us , wee must say , all things are lawfull , but all things are not expedient . when the law of charity is put upon us , wee must say , if meate make my brother to offend , i will eate no flesh while the world standeth . and when the law of loyalty is put upon us , we must say , thou ( o christian king ) art worth ten thousand of us , the scandall of thee swallowes up the scandall of ten thousand persons ; therefore wee must doe as ioab , number the people , no sinne in it selfe , though we see inconveniences that may fall upon it . next , concerning christian liberty , it doth not make us lawlesse : for then were it vaine for any church whatsoever , to determine what is fit for ceremonies to bee done by them : for then every one might flye to christian liberty , and say , i will doe what i list , my christian liberty shall beare me out . and how unfit this were ▪ every religious soule c●n judge : but it is a liberty that frees our consciences from inward bondage , that we be not brought under the dominion of any thing . i eate fish or flesh as is appointed , but i am brought under the dominion of neither . i weare white or blacke , i stand , or sit , or kneele , but i am brought under the dominion of none of them . in my conscience , my christian liberty hath set me free , but in my practise , i am bound in these things to expediency , charity , or loyalty for the establishing of good order in the church , or in the cōmon-weale . if they would but duely consider these two things , they would never talk of permissions turned into lawes to prejudice christian liberty . yea , christian wisedome would learne them too , that religious worship is called by the name of outward ceremonies used in them : as god calls praying , b●wing of the knees , and swearing , lifting up our hands ; not because these are commanded duties in such acts of worship , but because god permits , and loves our well carriage in his worship according to generall rules , though we have no particular precepts . yea , but ( say they ) our ceremonies are typicall and iewish ceremonies , which hurt our worship . they meane ( as i conceive ) they are teaching ceremonies , not ceremonies of meere order , but significant , to put us in minde of duty . i am sorry that this should be accounted a fault . if they did not signifie , how could they edifie ? were they types and shadowes of the mysteries of the gospell invented by men , indeed christ were ill advised not to ordaine them . but being onely mo●al documents and monitors of some duties , i wonder where their guilt lies . if i had an hundred boxes in my house for my uses , and some few of them had a marke upon them , to direct me where my mony lay , that i might be carefull of that , doth this savour of want of naturall wisedome ? so neither doth it taste of want of spirituall wisedome , to set a marke upon some few ceremonies , to put me in minde of my duty to christ . what are these ( say they ) but images set up to our selves for religious use . what ? to worship ? to adore god in , or by ? no , but to reminde us of what we ought to doe . and this was the practise of the church in all ages ; abraham put his servants hand under his thigh in swearing , surely to signifie his subjection to him in that businesse about the promised seede . moses set up an altar when amaleck was overthrowne , and called it iehovah nissi , to signifie , that the lord was their banner . the two tribes and a halfe built an altar , not to distinguish their borders , but to signifie , that they were gods people , and that they had all one god , to whom they , and their posterity must sacrifice upon his owne altar : samuel set up a stone when the philistims were discomforted , and called it eben-ezer , to signifie that the lord helped them . when christ the truth was come , hee used humane significant ceremonies , as the feast of dedication , sitting at the passeover , a signe of rest , the water pots of the jewish purifications , the custome of embalming , beside other formalities of the synagogue . the corinthians had the womens vaile in the congregation , to signifie subjection , and the kisse of peace ▪ to signifie love . other christians had agapae at the sacrament , in the roome whereof the christians offertory was brought in for pious uses , to signifie that love they should have one to another . so wee have standing at the beliefe ▪ to signifie that it is not a prayer , and that wee are ready to confesse our faith ; kneeling at the commandements , to signifie the honour we have to that god that gave it , and that wee must be ready to dart up prayer for our obedience ; and kneeling at the sacrament , to signifie an humble acknowledgement of gods love for so great a benefit . and doe wee and all these saints before us set up images to our selves in these ceremonies , for religious u●e ? god forbid . the practise of these saints when the lawes of god were purely taught and kept , teach us , that though we my not set up an image to worship god by , or in , yet may we set up some edifying signes to put us in minde of those duties wee owe to god. the patriarchs may build altars , give their children proper names , to be admonishing signes of their duties to god : and we may set all our sences on work that way . we may set up a poste in a darke and dangerous passage , that when i goe that way and touch it , it may signifie my danger , and i may avoide it ▪ i may set a watch-man in a towre to give a sound when the enemy comes , that he may signifie my enemies approach , and i may avoid him . i may set up a sea marke to signifie a rocke neere , that i split not upon it , and may not we be as wise for our soules as for our bodies ? god forbid . i am sure he hath no where forbidden it : therefore it is not against christ . if it be not against him , it is for him , saith our saviour . why then ( say they ) have we cast out all the significant ceremonies of popery . not for their significancy barely , but for their weight and measure . they are not to them onely , as outward garnishments of worship , but as proper worship , efficacious and meritorious : their number stifles devotion , and fills it with shewes without substance . a cup of water refreshes , but an whole well of water choakes . yea an hundred sermons weekly would not edifie , they would eate out our conscience in our particular callings : much more would an hundred ceremonies eate out the substance of our generall callings , when a few may much refresh and profit , if judgement over-power fancie and affection . yea but ( say they ) our significant ceremonies were taken from idolaters and limbs of antichrist who have abused them . were this true , yet take the drosse from the silver and make a vessel for the finer : but it is false . though they have had such as ours , and have still , yet ours are our owne , and were never theirs in speciall . fire and water are contrary , yet they agree in their kind , they are both elements : so ours are ceremonies , and so are theirs , but otherwise they differ as fire and water ; they scorne therefore ours , and we deride theirs . we read of sacrifices offered to devils , yet some of this was sold in shambles , and some the heathens made feasts of . it was all the same flesh in kind , but not in use . the christians did damnably if they went to it when it was sacrificed , yea and if they went to their idol feasts when they blessed an idol , it was idolatry : but if they bought part of that flesh in the shambles , and eate it , or went to their private feasts when they eate of it ( for ought they knew ) without reference to the idol , then saith paul , eate making no question for conscience sake . so say we of our crosse , surplice , kneeling , they were ordinances before idolators abused them . if they take them and blesse an idol with them , be it upon their own pates ▪ but if we be invited to them in a better use ( and not know , nor have just cause to suspect any lurking idolatry ) why should wee make so many needlesse questions about the use of them ? put case such as they are , pertained to idolaters . so did goliahs sword , yet david laid it up in an holy place for better use . so did bowing belong to baal , prostrating the whole body to idols , kissing to the calves , kissing the hand to the hoste of heaven , lifting up the eies , stretching forth both hands , showting for joy , sitting or lying along upon the ground , or on a carpet , to idols : yet all these we may use in the worship of the true god. so for our ceremonies , such as they are pertained to idolaters , but were not idolatrous of themselves . the crosse was used as a signe of profession before idolatrie prevailed . the white garment was ordained as a cover-sloven in the poverty of the church ; kneeling was used as an act of reverence before the breaden god was hatcht . and may not we lawfully use them now , to shew that we are in communion and fellowship with that blessed and persecuted church , without such noises and schismes . yea , but in our worship there is ( say they ) as bad as all behinde ; wee have a stinted worship by that foule idol the common prayer booke , and so we worship not in spirit , and truth . doe we not worship in spirit , when the spirit moves towards heaven as well as the flesh ? doe wee not worship in truth , when our petitions are true petitions , uttered with a true tongue according to the truth of our hearts ? doe wee not worship in spirit and truth , when with such petitions , heart , and tongue ; we seek to god in all places , not trusting in any ? certainely wee doe , and should doe farre better , were it not for them who disgrace our common-prayer booke , and draw the hearts of gods people from it . yet those that know the vanity of their words , and trust them not , know also , that they , even when they use that booke to send their prayers t● heaven by , doe pray in spirit and truth , god bearing them witnesse by the holy ghost . how can they pray in spirit ( say they ) when they use him not ? what ? is there no spirit but our owne ? surely there is a publicke spirit , and a private spirit . the first , hath wrought in the holy saints , and army of martyrs , who have laied up stocks of praier for us generations that follow them : and by the blessed providence of god , they are come into our hands . there wee see how they prayed for us before we were . there we learne to pray of them , of whom the world was not worthy . this spirit we use as well as our owne : and it is pitty that any christian that can pray to god by his owne dexterity of spirit , should yet contemne the workings , and helpings of the publicke spirit , without whom the world had never had such a benefit . but alasse ( say they ) our spirits are quite stinted when they are fettered with words appointed . surely , the freedome of spirit stands not so much in freedome of words , and in intention of zeale . as a servant that delivers his masters message in his masters words may doe it with a free spirit : so may a man pray when he takes to himselfe words , and not coines them himself . the best prayers are those that are delivered in gods words : and are our spirits stinted because we tye our selves to gods words ? as gods spirit is not stinted when it speakes unto us by the scriptures read : so nor our spirits when wee speake feelingly to god by read prayers . put case one man pray with a thousand that have large spirits , will they say that their spirits are stinted because they are tyed up , for the time being , to his spirit ? so nor when wee pray with others prayers . have wee a spirit better than the disciples of christ ? and doe wee know what will stint them better than christ ? yet christ gave them the lords prayer not onely to say after that manner , when hee taught the doctrine of prayer , but also to say , when hee taught them the practice of prayer . but ( say they ) hath not god given every good christian a spirit of supplication , by which they have a faculty and power to pray ? the disciples ( i hope ) were good christians , yet they say to christ , teach us to pray . yet know that there is a double power to pray : an inward power , by which the heart moves , and goes out of it selfe after god , christ , grace , and salvation . this power all good christians have , by the spirit of adoption , whereby they cry abba , father . an outward power , whereby they are able distinctly and judiciously to expresse the motions and desires of their hearts . this power all have not , and therefore have neede still to have further helpe and direction , as our saviour did helpe his disciples . but surely ( they may say ) the lords prayer is not a forme of prayer taught his disciples , or us . it is short and imperfect , it hath no such glory in it as some other ; i may think● it , though christs word be say ▪ and none are tyed to this forme of prayer alone . let all this stand till it be removed . it is true it is short , and in that is seene the glorious wisdome of christ ; but it is most perfect . we must pray all manner of prayers , supplications , intercessions , and giving of thankes : yet all these are comprehended in it . againe , there is infinitely more glory in it then in all prayers made by men . if all prayers be made they have their graynes of weight from hence . it briefly comprehends them all , and hath the best authority in the world . the wisdome of god the son of god , the beloved of god made it and expressed it with his tongue , in such blessed order as men & angels cannot devise the like . it is true that christ saith , say it : but there is a saying with the mind and heart , as well as with the tongue . for there are two parts of prayer ; the soule of prayer , when it is presented with understanding , heart , and spirit : and the body of prayer to helpe our fervencie ; as when we bowe our knees , lift up our hearts with our hands , and our eyes are lift up to god , and our bones say , lord who is like unto thee , and our tongues are the pennes of ready writers . yet hath not christ tyed us unto this prayer only . christ himselfe hath other prayers beside this , and the apostles many , together with the church , and godly particulars . yet by reason of the perfection of it both in matter , order , and words : by reason of the sufficiency of it to supply all wants : and by reason of our forgetfulnesse to aske all , or halfe ; it is a sure and comforting way ( what ever wee pray ) to use it alwaies with judgement and understanding . but ( say some of them ) it is of so large extent that wee cannot comprehend it . it is true , that it is of large extent and therefore we must labor for strength of judgmēt , and memory to put it up from the heart , that we may not tumble it over ( as the manner of some is ) as if it burnt their tongues . but christs lookes not that we should conceive of every thing in it ▪ every time wee use it . as there are few prayers wee can make ▪ but are of larger extent then wee presently conceive , as when we say , the lord san●tifie your sickenesse unto you , the lord blesse you , the lord give you grace , there are more things comprehended then presently meant● so in the lords prayer ; and therefore wee must have docible hearts to understād it better , & better , and we must have wisedom according to our apprehension , to apply it to severall occasions . but ( say they ) this or any other stinted prayer , are the very cut-throates of devotion , and coolers of affections . indeed they are so to wicked hearts . children must bee pleased with novelties , and wicked men loath gods continued favours , though it bee mannah from heaven : but if set prayers wrought so of themselves , would christ ever have given a set forme to his disciples ? certainely they will be no enemies to devotion , if christians bee zealous and carefull in using them . for the constant practise of the saints in scriptures commends them unto us in prescribed psalmes , and formes of blessing . and such is the inequalitie of gifts dispensed by christ unto his people , that to some a prescribed forme is necessary , when he hath not given them gifts of knowledge , and utterance to expresse their desires in any comely way ; to others necessary too , who are able fitly , and fully to doe it in private , yet are not so faced , and tongued , that they can doe it with confidence in publicke ; to all it is excellently usefull , that they may not onely have helpe of their owne spirits , but of the publick spirit of god working in his church , to advance them forward to heaven . it is a world of pittie , that men that have some great gifts ( as they thinke ) should contemn them that have them not , though haply they have others better then they . to have a gift of expressing our desires in fit order , matter , and words , is a comely ornament , yet may it , and doth often fall upon an hypocrite , it is not of the essence of a saveable christian● but to say , wee know not what to pray for as we ought , but the spirit helpes me ( publickly and privately ) with groanes and sighes that cannot be expressed , to say thus , i say , and to feele the truth of it too , is a note of a good christian , and can fall upon none but a childe of the kingdome of heaven . but ( say they ) put case that others may be helped by set formes of prayer , yet is there no reason that a minister or presbyter that hath gifts , should bee tied to a forme of words . neither is he alwaies , but that he should bee tied to common solemne praier , as with us , there is excellent reason for it , as well as in all other reformed churches , except theirs . first , for uniformity , that all gods people in our church might meete at the same time , and put up the same petitions with earnest desires , in the same manner . and is not this a comforting thought , that we have an opener way to heavē made us , by the joint suites of all good english or hearts . secondly , for memory , that he may not forget the generall necessities of all the church , and so sticke upon those particulars onely , which are according to his owne feeling . thirdly , for honour to the blessed saints and martyres whose prayers they were . that as we have had benefit by them , when they were put up to god before , so wee may bring benefit to our selves and others by them , when wee pray them now . fourthly , for his calling sake . hee is not immediatly called by god , 〈…〉 & the church . therefore as he is called by god , he useth those gifts which hee hath received from god ; as he is called by the church , he is to use and honour the publicke gifts of the church , in interpretation , prayer , and the like . what more need bee said to justifie our worship by set formes of prayer , for the present i see not : when i shall , by gods assistance i shall say more . sect . 16. the brownists maine exceptions in their former argument , against our common-prayer booke more specially . though set formes of publicke pray●r may be lawfull , usefull , commendable , and glorious , yet they say , that our common prayers are not so fit a way to worship god by : nay they say more , that that worship is plainely idolatrous . i am sure that that assertion is weakely superstitious . i would wish them that they be piously carefull , that they speake not evill of that they know not , because they are not careful or willing to know , we ordinarily know unwise young men , when their whose soules live in their affections , to make many objections against many good orders , and lawes , who , when ripenesse , and experience , hath made them see the reasons , have beene ashamed of what they have done : and may it not be so with these men and women ? howsoever i would intreate them to consider what they may reade in the historie of our church , that when a godly martyr was reading in a primar of our church , and came to lord have mercy upon us , christ have mercy upon us , an ungodly serving-man , who was set to attend him , blasphemously mocked at it , but hee was strooke madde that night , and dyed miserably . let them duely consider this , and feare to open their mouthes against any comforts of the godly , and advancement of godlinesse . as for my part , i have reade some liturgies beside our owne , and have heard of others : but ( blessed be god ) i never saw , or heard of any more fully accomplished for the worke in hand . but am i not deceived ? let us ( in the feare of god ) take a view how it proceeds in all publicke service , and call in along their exception ( which i know ) as we goe along . there is in it first , a preparation to publicke service , and then the service , and worship it selfe . the preparation is by meditation , exhortation , and prayers . the presbyter , or deacon , doth in the beginning propound some texts of scripture to be thought upon , that we by their meditation , may draw our selves into the presence of our god to heare and doe . yea indeed ( say they ) they doe corrupt the text . for though they say , at what time soever a sinner doth repent from the bottome of his heart , god will blot them out of his remembrance , which is not the speech of ezekiel . i pray is not this the full sense of the prophet ; made speake to ordinary capacity , if not his words ? doth he not say , if the wicked will turne ? is not this equivalent to at what time soever , whether to day , to morrow , or whensoever ? i hope when conditions are performed , god will be as good as his word whensoever . doth he not say , if they turne from all their iniquities , and keepe all my statutes ? what is this but repent from the bottome of the heart , and leave no root of bitternesse behind ? doth he not say , hee shall live , his sinnes shall not be mentioned unto him ? what is this but i will put them or blot them out of my remembrance ? this is not corruption , i hope , when the text is plainly expressed in the true sense of it . secondly , he doth exhort the people according to the scriptures to confesse their sinnes with a lowly , penitent , and obedient heart , saying after him . by this hee puts them in minde what to doe , namely to confesse their sinnes aright , that their poyson being vomited up , they may the better set themselves to seeke god in the other acts of worship . but ( say they ) what need this , saying after me , seeing the presbyters prayer and the peoples amen is enough . indeed it is enough to a prayer , the petitions whereof are not knowne to the people before , such as that of ezra , and when men exercised their owne gifts for the edification of many . but is it therefore unlawfull for the people to say after their leader when hee prompteth them , or they are taught by the church ? doe not all the people , as well as the presbyter pray to god , and praise god in singing psalmes ? and i am sure the word of christ , which warranteth what is commanded , and what it goeth not against is not against it . it is true , it is uncomely for many mouthes to put up a petition to the king at once : it would confound him whose apprehension and understanding is limited . but it is not so to god who is understanding it selfe , wisdome it selfe , to whom millions sing psalmes at once , and thousand millions pray to him at once over all the world . thirdly , he doth pray for and with them , that they may doe as hee exhorted them for first there is the joynt confession of all their unworthinesse , and prayer to god that they may live better in after times . confession without a purpose to amend does no good : therefore are both united in our good confession . then doth he ( for their encouragement ) declare and pronounce the absolution and forgivenesse of sinnes to true penitent beleevers according to the gospel ; and applying it to the people prayes , that upon their repentance , their sinnes being done away , they may doe worthily that service which now they are about . a●d then to supply all defects in all , all pray with one heart , as one man , the lords prayer , which is the king of prayers : and so rise with short and earnest prayers , that they may praise god , and that god would help them ; and with a profession of their faith in the trinitie , and desire that all glory may bee given unto that blessed three in one . thus , i am sure , if wee have pious and humble soules , may we be prepared , for the publike worship of god , publikely . now for the service and worship it selfe , in this good booke it hath three degrees , the beginning , middle , and end of it . in the beginning of it there is reading of psalmes ▪ principally to raise up our affections , and of other scriptures both of the old and new testament , to confirme our judgements in the truth , and to helpe us to search whether things heard are so or no. there is confession of our faith , that wee may professe it as a briefe rule from scriptures , to try whether we stand in the faith , whereto we may referre the truths of faith in the scriptures . and we have prayers wherein wee are not long at once , or with a breath ; but have distinct and divided salutations , praises and petitions , for our selves : chiefe members , and the church , that we may the better hold out unto the end without distractions . all this ( i am sure ) none , if they understand , can justly blame . onely there is one thing ( worth notice ) which doth hardly relish to some fewe , and can by no meanes be indured by the brownists , and that is the litany . this stickes most , because they are more carefull to make objections against it , then answers for it , that they may have comfort and peace with us . therefore ( with christs helpe ) i shall indeavour two things ; to shew the reason of the name , and how they may satisfie themselves against such scruples as may arise . it is called a litany , which is an humble prayer , whose use is most for adversity . it comes of a word that signifies to supplicate , from whence comes suppliant prayers . the ancient churches were full of them , as i could shew , which usually beganne with lord have mercy upon us , christ have mercy upon us ; and why should ours be empty , seeing wee would be accounted as good christians as they ? there are divers exceptions against ours , therefore let us see next , how they may satisfie themselvs against them . there is no church that i know , but must have a favourable construction of some things , and so must ou●s ▪ yet in this i see not , but that all excepters may be fully satisfied . the exceptions that i have yet met with , are against the manner of this prayer , and against the matter of it . against the manner ( they say ) that it is with repetitions of the people , and interlocutary passages . as for that , i finde that in the scriptures god hath commanded publicke prayers , that is , that presbyter and people should pray : but he hath not commanded any forme , or manner , to carry their prayers in , but onely that it bee done to edification . therfore he hath left that free to the wisdome and judgement of the governours . and this we have often experience of , that if a continued prayer be but halfe so long , some will bee nodding before it bee done ; whereas if they be kept busie , by the matter in hand , they are more vigilant . but ( say they ) he hath given us the lords prayer all in one length , and set amen in the latter end . this is true : yet marke , he said to his disciples , when yee pray , say , our father , and amen too : and hee hath not told them in what manner they should say it when they pray together : whether one should say the petitions , and the rest , amen , or whether all should say the petitions , and amen too : in this he hath left them to edif●cation , and us also . but ( it is said ) that some parts of the litany are so said , that the reader shewes onely what they must pray for , and the people make the suite , as when they say from such , and such a thing , good lord deliver us : and this seemes to bee absurd . that the people should make it without the minister is not injoyned : that the minister doth not intend and make the suite , is false , except hee bee carelesse , and wicked . as the people say amen aloude ; and the minister saith it too , though happly not so loude : so the minister intends , and saith , good lord deliver us , though the people in turnes , exceede in voice . against the matter of this prayer , many things are objected , few things weighed , and nothing proved , but evident quarrels . there are exceptions against words and phrases ; and against suites conveyed in them . the wordes and phrases are , by thy crosse , and passion , by thy pretious death , &c. which some of them , out of the le●ity of minde , call conjuring ; some , out of worse , cal swearing , as if none could out sweare the litany . let them take heede how they blaspheme the piety of gods servants . it was none of elies goodnesse , when hee reproached the prayers of hannah ; as if shee were drunke when shee made them . let them apply this to themselves . it will not be denied but that christ brought us a great benefit by all these . for what hee did as a publicke person , hee did for us and our salvation , in one degree or other . now , what is this , but a praying that all these acts , and passions of christ , in their vertue and merit bee applyed to us by gods love , that wee may finde the profit of them ? but now the suites that wee convey in the words of that good prayer are troublesome to them , both when we sue for things , and persons , as for things , wee pray against two things which they doe not like , against sudden death , and against the sinnes of our forefathers . as for the first , there is a double sudden death : sudden in time , and sudden for want of preparation . god hath said , that hee will come before that wee are aware , like a thiefe in the night . his will bee done : wee pray not against that . but wee pray that his comming may not be so sudden , but that through wisdome given , we may set our houses in order , and bee as the wise virgines having our lampes and oyle in a readinesse : and from such sudden death good lord deliver us . as for the sinnes of our forefathers ( which being dead are now out of the state of forgivenesse ) wee pray not that their sinnes bee forgiven them , but that they bee not remembred to be punished in us . god punisheth to the third and fourth generation : and the psalmist saith , let the iniquitie of his fathers be remembred before the lord , and let not the sinne of his mother be blotted out , that their posterity bee cut off , and in the generations following their names bee blotted out . and because these comminations have conditions of repentance annexed to them , doe not wee well to repent , and cry to god , remember not the iniquity of forefathers , for feare of those sinnes that have gone before us . but yet they like not the persons that we pray for , when wee say , that god would have mercy upon all men . for christ saith , he prayed not for the world : but our church cares not whom they pray for . indeed , because wee finde that wee have a precept , pray for all men , and an holy practise , let the people praise thee o god , let all the people praise thee , therefore wee doe as wee are bound in praying for all men . yet doe not wee pray for the world , but against it that we may follow christ . christ prayed for the jewes and gentiles that persecuted him to death , father forgive them , for they know not what they doe : yet he prayes not for the world that lies in wickednesse , but that it come out , and serve god : so wee pray once more against their wickednesse , but wee pray for their persons . as farre as our charity tends , so farre our prayers extend ; and i am sure wee must doe good to all . but if god shall reveale any speciall persons that have sinned unto death , wee will not pray for them . in the meane time , give us leave ( if you have so much charity ) to pray that there may bee none such . yea , but ( say they ) wee pray in that litany , for all that travaile by land , or by water , and so for thieves , and pyrats too , yea , and i know not for what , devills in mens braines , who compasse the earth too and fro . where is their charity ? the pious church provideth a prayer for men and not for devils , who are out of hope , and out of all communion with her : and for all men that are within a saveable condition in that word , our father . so shee prayes for theeves and pyrats to make them better , or else against them , to maintaine gods just providence in their future punishments . if these bee all their exceptions against our good litany , as they are all i have heard , i hope they will give me leave to use it as i doe , and use it with me in peace . the second degree of our church worship is the middle of it , when wee reade the commandements of our great god with prayer , when we read the epistles and gospels , more fully to strengthen our faith , and pray for the whole church . in the first , they doe except that we kneele when the commandements are reade , as if it were a prayer . noe : wee doe it not to make it a prayer : it is none . but yet wee doe it , partly to testifie our subjection to the god that gave it , as the people on mount sinai fell downe at the publication of it , and as wee kneele before the king : and partly , because it is joyned with that submissive prayer , lord have mercy upon us , and incline our hearts to keepe this law . next come the epistles ( as indeede the whole word is an epistle written to our soules ) : wherein wee have sometimes prayers , but mostly fit rules of holinesse of life : and after the gospels , that wee may know the benefits of which we must live worthy . these strengthen our faith in all the articles , and further our thankfulnesse for all gods mercies by christ and his apostles . i know nothing worth notice that is heere excepted against . if they call them shreads of scripture , yet they are scriptures , and fit texts applyed to every season . and if christ would not onely preach truths , but fit truths for the people : and if they themselves ( i hope ) will choose fit texts for feasts , and fasts , times of solemnity , and times of mourning , i hope also that the church cannot bee denyed this liberty . if they say , they are applyed to divers holidayes which are not of christs appointment . yet are they not without christs leave and permission . if christ have permitted them ( though god saith , six daies thou shalt labour ) yet to use their liberty according to discretion , upon any of the six to refresh themselves , or spend in holy exercises ; is he an harder master , yea husband unto his church ? surely , as occasion is offered , they may choose any fit dayes either to feast , or to fast . but alasse ( say they ) all this , in that common-prayer booke is but an english masse , taken out of the masse-booke of rome . belike then wee had it out of the temple of god , where that man of sinne sitteth , well : bee it so . a thiefe hath got a true mans purse , may not justice deliver it to him againe , and leave the thiefe to his judge and punishment ? such is our case . the pope could not have hid himselfe so long , but under the banner of christ , and the service of god with the saints . therefore hee gets the leitourgy , or common-prayer booke of the blessed fathers , and adds to it of his owne rubbish , as masses for quicke and dead , dirges , requiems , praying to saints and angels , blessing of bells and candles , to give power to drive away devils . when this was espyed , by the breaking out of the beames of the glorious gospel , the blessed martyres challenge their owne , and leave the wicked trash to the founder . and is not this justice ? if these men had gold and silver mingled with durt , and poyson , would they cry out , all durt , all poyson , and worke for more ? no : they would wash , cleanse , purifie , and keepe the gold and silver for their uses . so have we done , and noe more . wee have taken off the spots , and keepe the garments , we have washed away the filth , from the gold of the first great saints and martyres . if this bee a fault , wee rejoyce in it , and commend to others , as doctour rowland taylour when hee was going to be burned , next unto the bible , the service-booke , to bring up our children in the feare of god. and so i passe that . the last degree is the end of our common-prayer worship , which is the administration of sacraments . the wit of men and angels cannot devise a better way of gods worship in them . such grave exhortations , effectuall prayers , propounding of warrants , laying downe of promises , confident expectations of their making good by christ , to children , parents , and all penitent and believing christians , are there upon record , that a modest man would wonder how any exceptions could be found out . yet three things are there that much trouble them , and us by them . 1 kneeling at the communion . 2 crosse in baptisme , and 3 the responses , or answeres in baptisme . as for kneeling , i shall indeavour ( with gods helpe ) to doe two things : shew that they may lawfully worship god in the use to this sacrament , kneeling ; and take away their maine rubs in the way . that which is for christ they may lawfully doe : but kneeling at the sacrament is for christ : for what is not against him , is for him . if it bee against him , let them shew where hee hath forbidden it . if they cannot , they may lawfully kneele . againe , that which is neither commanded nor forbidden by god , they may lawfully doe ( for the apostle saith of such things , all things are lawfull ) yea they must necessarily doe it now , not out of conscience to the gesture , but out of conscience to the command of our christian king and church : but kneeling at the communion is neither commanded nor forbidden by god , but commanded by the king and church : therefore they may , they must kneele . againe , if they kneele not , but sit , as an act of religion , they make it essentiall to the supper , and the apostle paul an unfaithfull servant to so good a master . for hee saith that what he received of the lord he delivered unto them : but he doth not speake one word of the gesture . therefore sitting is no act of religion , the gesture is left to the church , they may kneele , or paul is unfaithfull . lastly , if they kneele not , they bring juster censures upon themselves then they can give to us that kneele , which they are bound to avoid . as they be justly charged first to worship god by the will of man , and so in vaine ▪ for to place a worship of god in sitting or standing rather then in kneeling , is a worship of god by the will of man , because they have no such warrant from god. secondly , they be justly charged to adde to , or take from the word , and so to corrupt it : for all impositions upon the conscience , which god hath not warranted are such additions . but such are these new traditions , as kneele not , but stand or sit , touch not , taste not , which things perish with the using . thirdly , they are justly charged to have communion with the worst hereticks . for arrians doe directly deny the divinity of christ , and to professe themselves to doe it , they will not kneele at the communion of the blessed body and bloud of christ , but sit . these charges they lay upon us , but more justly they lye upon themselves : because we make not kneeling an act of worship from men , or an addition to the word , but onely an act of good order , to witnesse our reverence to god , who is pl●ased to give us such a pledge of his love . how they will answer these things to god , i know not . they either cannot , or will not answer them to me , onely they put in their plea against kneeling in the act of receiving , which i shall now labour to remove . they mainly urge the example of christ , that he and his disciples sat at the supper . but all the world is not able to prove that they sat at the delivering and receiving of the bread and cup. hee sate down indeed with them , but then hee tooke , he blessed , hee brake , he gave : what gesture hee used in blessing they cannot tell . certainely if according to scripture examples , hee either kneeled or stood : then whether after his blessing they sate downe againe , let them tell me . never let them dreame that hee sate as a shadow of rest in heaven : for let them shew that christs pleasure was to ordaine shadowes in the new testament when the body was come , and canaan , that old shadow was to be cursed ; or if hee did , i le tell them that paul was an unfaithfull servant , that would not teach that shadow to the corinthians , to whom he professeth to deliver what he received . but grant that christ did sit ; what hee occasionally did , is no example to binde us to doe the like : but as by occasion hee administred at night , after supper , with unlevined bread ; so hee might occasionally sit according to the ceremony of the jewish church at the passeover . besides if they would sit because christ sate , they must sit as hee did , or else they doe not imitate christ : but christ might sit a sacrifice way , or lying along , and leaning , which they doe not observe . but put case they sit not in every point like christ , yet they tell us of the fitnesse of this gesture , to signifie our fellowship with christ on earth and in heaven . th● they will ordaine a significant ceremony against us , but not for us . and in truth , they dreame so much of fellowship with christ , that they forget him to be their soveraigne king and lord , and so are too sawcie with him . but for the table gesture , will they have all other formalities , at a table , fit for the table of the lord ? i● not , why must this alone be fit , when christ hath no said so ? besides , if table gesture be urged , christs example doth not binde . for his was not a common table gesture , but onely used at sacrifices and sacred feasts , when they did discumbe or lye along . had christ told us that this was the fittest gesture we should have rested in his pleasure : but he having left it at liberty , and even common understanding judging of it fittest to receive a seale of a pardon upon the knee , as the greatest signe of thankfulnesse used for such a favour why wee should not take it up , wee cannot yet see . yea but ( say they ) we doe not only looke to the fitnesse of sitting , but to the beginning of kneeling : it was begun by a wicked pope in honour of the breaden god : and therefore not to be continued by us . put case this plea were true , yet that which was misapplied to the honour of a creature , may ( i hope ) be rightly applied to the honour of our god ; for else no man may sit : because the accursed arrians have brought in this sitting at the sacrament to dishonour christ : and the pope seconds them , who sits then in state to advance himselfe above all gods people , both kings and beggars . but the truth is , that no pope brought in kneeling in the act of receiving . it was brought in by him indeed at the elevation , and when the sacrament was carried in procession , but not as we doe use it . they have no law ( that i could ever yet read of ) save onely for the pope himselfe to receive it sitting , but onely the law of custome and convenience to receive it kneeling . put case all this bee true ; yet ( say they ) the use of kneeling stickes with them they doe not know why they should kneele now , seeing kneeling is a part of gods worship , or a signe of it . it is no part of gods worship , or signe of it in it selfe : for then wee might not use it in civill , or ordinary things . indeede wee are exhorted to it ) which shewes the lawfulnesse of it , as wee are , to praise god in the dance , and to clap our hands : but there is no precept which bindes it to god alone . the servants of god have sometimes stood , and sometimes sate reverendly before the lord , and sometimes laine along , that god might have his worship in all gestures left free to the users . but why should they speake of worship heere , when wee neither require kneeling , to worship the consecrated bread by , no nor him that doth administer the sacrament , but to testifye our humble thankefulnesse to god for our pardon sealed . there remaines now nothing of worth under this head , but their readie obedience , when god shall humble their mindes , and quiet their hearts , that they may live in peace , and worship with us . the second and third things that trouble them , are in our baptisme : and are the crosse in baptisme , and the respon●es , or answeres of the godfathers and godmothers in the childes name . as for the crosse , i wondred alwayes that private persons should once name it , seeing it concernes the consciences of us that administer , not of infants that receive it , who by it are made neither better , nor worse . they are but seers , and sufferers in it , not doers of it . if therefore wee can satisfie our selves in the doing of it , that wee may preach iesus christ unto them in the churches peace , they have cause to thanke us , and to thanke god for pacifying our consciences for their good , and not cry out against us , and runne away from us . o but they cannot abide to see that idolatrous and abominable crosse to passe over poore childrens faces , without either reason , or religion . there is reason for it ; because it depends upon the commands of superiours , and reason wills that they bee obeyed in lawfull and possible things . there is religion for it ; because it is but a ceremony testifying our communion with the primitive chvrch which gloryed in , and was persecuted for the crosse of christ : and good religion hath never beene against such things . as to testifie communion with believing iewes , even the gentiles abstained from stranguled and bloud : so to testifie our communion with the believing gentiles of old , wee retayne that signe still , which they used in the face of their persecutours , to signifie that they were ready to confesse that lord who dyed for them on the crosse . what though the church of rome did afterwards fearefully abuse it , yet it is ( certainely ) to us neither abominable , not idolatrous . wee use it not as a signe from god to men , as the sacraments are : nor as a signe from men to god , as bowing in prayer● is : but as a signe from men to men , as that old kisse of love . for as that did signifie christian concord and agreement : so this , our hope if the childe lives , that it will fight under the banner of christ ; therefore if the childe bee ready to dye , this signe ( by good order ) is omitted ? the church of rome useth it , both for consecration , benediction , and operation effective of i know not what feates : but wee use it to none of these purposes . if it bee sayd that the child by that badge is dedicated to gods service in our use of it , as the canon runnes : yet the sence must not bee contrary to the commanded use . therefore as wee are sayd to wed with a ring , which is nothing but a declaring of a marriage knot , by giving and receiving of a ring , and by joyning of hands : and as the priest was said to cleanse the leaper by the appointed meanes , when hee did onely declare and pronounce him to bee cleane : so the crosse is no dedicating signe , for that is done in baptisme , which receives it into the congregation of christs flocke , but onely declares , to the hope of the church , that it shall so live to christ . i see not but this may satisfie the soule of any good christian ( knowing what i said before of ceremonies ) concerning the use of the crosse in our good church . as for the godfathers and godmothers answering in the name of the childe , though it seeme unreasonable to them , yet is there excellent reasons for it . they know there were questions and answeres in philips baptizing of the eunuch , which hath ever beene continued in the church because of the covenant in baptisme . and though infants cannot answer , yet are there three reasons why their sureties should . the first is ecclesiasticall , the second civill , and the third divine . the church reason is , because it might put the whole congregation in minde of what was done by them : when they were baptized , they entered covenant with god. as the prophet spake to the dead altar to admonish living ieroboam , o altar , altar , heare the word of the lord : so doe wee to infants to admonish all that heare ●t . the civill reason is , because by the 〈◊〉 of guardianship , the guardian answeres for the pupil under their charge ; and by this , takes upon him an obligation of dut● his power , and promise of faithfulnesse ▪ as hee can : and what he doth , stands in law as his pupils act . now , because our sureties in baptisme are such , therefore they answere for children , and what they doe professe to doe , is accounted the infants act , to which hee is bound , as wee see in the civill covenant betwixt david and ionathan , and their seedes for ever . the divine reason is , because in the very substance of baptisme , which is a signe and seale of the covenant of grace , there is an interrogation on gods part for repentance , and beliefe of the gospel , and on our parts a repromission or answere of a good conscience , which is opened and expounded by these questions and answeres . if notwithstanding these reasons they seeme yet to bee unreasonable ; it is enough they know them , and they must stand , till they can from sound grounds overthrow them from the word of christ . thus ( by gods blessing ) i have finished the three grounds upon which our forsakers leave us : and ( i hope ) i shall satisfie them in this , that wee have a true church , a true ministery , a true worship , and that they ( for any thing i know ) have no just cause to say otherwise . if yet they persevere and multiply scandal , and schisme , they must once againe remember the blessed wordes wee beganne with , not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is , but exhorting one another : and so much the more as yee see the day approaching . sect . 17. the use to bee made of the constancy of some , and forsakings of o●her : consideration , exhortation , because the day is approaching . it is the course of too many to cleave to the assemblies , but they are never the better . they onely stand to outward profession , but grow not in grace and the knowledge of our lord and saviour iesus christ . hence is it , that if never so many of them stand , they cannot incourage them : nor if never so many fall away , they cannot wisely consider them , and exhort unto faithfulnesse . therefore the apostle would have us such knowing , and wise christians , by the helpe of publicke assemblies , that wee may wisely consider one another , and weightily exhort one another , that wee may keepe one another in sound knowledge and pious practise . there are three things which wee shoud consider in our selves ; our aptnesse to fall , the difficulty of our standing , and our love to that way which is most dangerous . though god set us not justly in slipperie places , yet are apt to slide away continually . wee carry about with us the foolish and unwise flesh , which makes us unwarie , and so we are soone caught in a deceitfull net . there are questing snares of gaine , and questioning snares or frivolous and idle things which end in noyse and tumult without profit : and thus wee are apt to fall . we as hardly keepe our standings , we are children , and doe not play the men . we are a mixture of weakenesse , and must have gods good spirit lead us , or downe wee goe . satan is principality and power , by whom the winde rises , and the rayne falls , and the flouds come , and then our house , if it bee not strongly founded goes to wrack . that little strength wee have is apt to false us , by faith wee stand , and still there is something lacking to our faith . and thus it comes that wee hardly keepe our feete steady . wee are also too much in love with that way that hath most danger in it . the spirit is willing , but the flesh is weake , and is ready to eate poyson for wholesome foode ; sometimes out of custome , sometimes out of curiositie , and sometimes out of an ill appetite wee have got to unwholesome things . but if wee doe wisely consider these things in one another , wee will bee full of compassion . and as they that consider not are full of fierce and fiery censure , as iudah to tamar , bring her forth and let her be burnt , not considering his owne guilt : so they that doe it , are led by the contrary spirit . as when wee consider a man aloft , who totters , is apt to fall , and unable to keepe his feete in a setled posture , our bowels yearne , our flesh drops feare , and wee are out of our selves with sudden apprehension : so is it with a man that considers his brother ; hee puts him on by fellow feeling . yea then wee will prudently deale one with another to keep up . as wee see dispositions , gifts , vertues or faults , wee wisely fore-thinke , how to maintaine the best , and prevent the worst . besides , this considering brings us to pauls rule , if a brother fall by infirmity , ( not by pride and selfe conceit ) restore him with the spirit of meekenesse ; with a tender heart and hand , set him in joynt againe . for want of this consideration too many christians are ready to faile . the frailety of the flesh , the opposition of grace is little considered , and so there is neither wisedome , compassion , or meeknesse to heale . men difference not stubborne faylers , for whom there is a rod of iron ; and weake failers , for whom there is a spirit of meekenesse . men discerne not sinners of custome , who are as blacke-moores and sinners overtaken , who with stripes must not bee driven quite away , and so doe more hurt than good . but bee more wise to consider hereafter than before . this moved paul to say , hee that stands , let him take heed lest hee fall . this moved iohn to say , little children , keepe your selves from idols . yea this mooved christ to say , when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren . out of such consideration , i have laboured to give this revalsion and antidote . and if our forsakers had had it too , it might have saved mee a labour , and they might with it have had more wisdome , meeknesse , and compassion , and lesse heart-dividing censures . the apostle would have us also make such use of publike assemblies that wee may exhort one another . hee knowes that it is a great worke to continue in love to god , his truth , and saints , and in good workes . pride is one of the last sinnes that dye . it is like a man of a strong heart which hardly yeelds ; his heart is more in compasse than another mans . it will worke it selfe out of lesse sinne and more grace : and where pride is , there is contention : and so lesse truth and love . againe , superfluity of maliciousnesse drownes the whole nature of man. even when the head floates with christ , the heart is too much drencht in this . it is crossed , and will crosse againe , like the devils cocke , to spurre all opposites : and hence also comes losse of truth and love . againe , the spirit of a man lusteth after envy . this makes the eye evill because god is good . it desires to bee in the uppermost forme , like the two sonnes of zebedeus . therefore ioseph , the reformed prodigall , and the last workers in the vineyard are grumbled at : and hence also is lesse truth and love . lastly , truth and love enter at a narrow passage , and christ comes not with all his mighty power at first . as the sea is not sifted thorow the narrow crevises of the earth at once : so is it with truth and love . and as a conquerour , that leaves most of his armie behinde him , subdues not presently : so it is with christ and us . wee are not able to receive his truth and love together , neither stands it with his dispensation , wee being not extraordinary , but ordinary servants , who must attaine by industry . hence therefore men dreaming that they have attained , when there is much behind , doe ill use what truth and love they have , and so faile foulely . neither is it lesse difficult to continue in good workes . the fountaine is apt to be dry , that is , a good heart . if out of the belly doe not flow rivers of waters of life , no waters will runne to the living . how soon is this streame dryed up , because men live not with christ the spring-head ? besides , men are not altogether for gathering this worlds goods to spend it upon their lusts . they forget that there is a time to scatter , and then they cast not their bread upon the waters , they beleeve not that they shall finde it so . lastly , men have three bad thoughts that keepe them from good workes . they thinke that no man is more worthy to have then themselves . some are wicked and not worthy : some are good , yet themselves are better : some are idle and will live upon the spoile : and some are painefull , and therefore the better able to provide for themselves : still selfe is thought to be the onely man to have . they thinke themselves againe the absolute owners of what they have . it is their owne , as nabal said , why should they give it to others ? this they willingly thinke not , that they are stewards , and so are kept backe . lastly , they thinke this worlds goods the onely commanders of men and things : and therefore they will not put themselves out of them that they may rule all . now , because it is so difficult a work , not only to continue in good works , but in truth and love which must make them excellent : therefore the apostle would have us so improve our selves by the fellowship of publike assemblies that we may be able to exhort one another . such is the inconstancie of nature in all good courses , that it is easily apt to change from good to worse . moses was but a while gone , and israel fell to idolatry . paul wondred that the galathians were so soone turned to another gospel . yea such is our slownesse in good , that we had need be spurred continually . ephesus forsakes her first love : yea and when christs hearers heard , they must be exhorted to heare : and when the thessalonians did edifie one another they must bee exhorted to doe it . men are in a dead sleepe , and they are loth to be awaked as the sluggard : they thinke themselves able to exhort themselves , they love not many masters , they see not how frozen they are , till their owne hearts smite them , as davids , till god raise up some adversary to reproach them , or till god take them in hand himselfe by some heavie visitation . therefore saith paul , exhort one another . oh that wee could alwayes walk in the presence of this duty , and suffer the words of exhortation too . the wicked will call one upon another to goe to hell , why should not we to get one another towards heaven . but how our forsakers will answer it to god i know not , who cast themselves out of our assemblies in folly , before they are cast out in justice , and forgoe this whetstone of exhortation , for a blunt sticke of their owne devising . this i am sure , they might be exhorted with us , and learne to exhort others better from us then they doe , to leade poore soules into the wayes of discord , distraction , and strife . i have but one thing to thinke upon this text more , and that is pauls motive and inforcement ( so much the more because ye see the day approaching ) men complaine much of dayes , and times ▪ but i am sure , the worse they are the more had they neede to keepe the communion of saints both publicke , and private . evill dayes will come fast enough , no man had neede to pull them upon himselfe . if hee doe , there is ( the day ) comming which will pay to the purpose ( without a pardon ) for all his sinnes and indiscretions . all other dayes are our dayes , in which wee eate , drinke , marrie , give in marriage , work , play , pray , and heare , and the like : but this is the day , with gods marke upon it , when all shall bee awaked and gathered before their judge . the thought of this day should sharpen us to love assemblies , and call others to them , because they are the ordinances of christ the judge ▪ on this day there will bee fulnesse of feares and terrours . fearefull sights of an universall fire , throne , and judge : fearefull yellings and cryings of desperate men : fearefull accusations from heaven , earth , and consciences ; and the fearefullest sentence that ever yet passed , goe yee cursed . therefore had wee neede all our lives to get something to comfort us against that time , for it is an evill time to the wicked . on that day will there bee an expectation of comfort , or discomfort , for ever , and ever , upon all that wee have done , either in our assemblies , or out of them . on that day wee shall heare such accounts as wee have never heard , as how wee have willfully sinned in every secret . in the secret of our understanding , will , affections , judgements , consciences , corners , woods , and denns ? how many assemblies wee have neglected ? how many wee have prophaned , in being no better ? how many in our power wee have not exhorted ? how many have exhorted us , and wee have not answered and followed ? on that day shall i bee judged if i have taught you to acknowledge our church a true church , our ministery a true ministery , and our worship a true worship , against my judgement and conscience according to the rule of christ so farre as i am come , yea , and i shall bee cast also . and on that day , shall our forsakers escape scotfree ? shall they not passe a strickt triall and examination ? have yee had a care to keepe a christian state to christs honour ? have yee loved publicke assemblies to that end and use ? have yee not forsaken the assemblies of christs people for no just cause ? is not that a true church which professeth the name of christ according to his word , whereto it submits as the rule of the religion it hath ? is not that a true church which enters covenant with mee , as all the christians in the world by entring into my schoole by baptisme ? is not that a true church which acknowledgeth mee onely head for supreame rule , and under mee my liefetenants and chiefe officers , to governe according to my lawes general , and speciall ? is not that a true church which rejoyceth in good members , yet dare not forbid wicked hypocrites from the outward priviledges of my feast , because i have commanded her that good and bad should bee called ? is not that a true church which hath the power of governement in best and wisest , when i never commanded that whole assemblies should ever have an independent power to doe according to voyces , which cannot but bee the authour of schisme ? is not that a true church which doth exercise governement according to my patternes and rules , ins●rting things in order , ordaining teachers , and casting out unworthy beasts , as information , and conviction could bee justly had ? have you forsaken such a church , to set up a church of your owne devising , which hath never beene from my time downeward ; to ordaine pastours and doctours that are not able to divide the word of god aright ; to cast out , or keepe in according to the voyces of two , or three men or women , which may out of selfe-conceit , and pretence of my word , presume to bee a church contrary to my will ? what ministery have you forsaken ? a ministery that hath beene honoured by the bloud of blessed martyrs : that are no wooden priests , but whose breath hath blowne away romish tyranny , idolatrie , superstitions , and falsities , which dishonoured mee and my offices ; a ministery that hath gained soules from heathenisme , and prophanenesse in their turnes , and moved ( by my blessing ) effectually to serve the living and true god , even to thousands , and millions ? what worship have you forsaken ? a worship of praying and receiving of sacraments with my word , with petitions , supplications , intercessions , and giving of thankes to my father in my name ? have yee forsaken such a worship , and all because every one that goe before in worship have not their tongues at liberty to say what they list , but are helped by the publicke spirit of my church , so as they may with one heart and mouth at one time , when i have no where commanded the contrary ? oh let this terrour of the lord perswade men . a thousand yeares with christ are but as one day ; for the iudge standeth at the doore : and when hee doth come , thinke what praise and honour ye shall get by disturbing a church where is a true ministery , and worship , by disheartning of gods tender people from his service , under pretence of his word , when for none of your fancies you can produce one precept of christ . the most you pretend are obscure places ( which by the diligentest searchers of scriptures have beene and are diversly expounded , and therefore no sure footing ) or some obscure examples without lawes ; which yet , if they were never so pregnant , prove but the lawfulnesse , not the necessitie of such practises . and will you hazard the peace of a christian church , the comfort of your consciences , the liberty of your goods , and bodies , upon so sandy a foundation . oh thinke upon that day , and take wiser mens advice then your selves that have not beene carried with rashnesse , puffed with pride , in love with a conceit of selfe-government , or pricked with envies , emulations , jealousies , just punishments , and see whether such men will warrant your courses upon the price of their soules in that day . and if all candor bee not banished , if hatred to an english priest , a bishops creature ( as some body is termed ) have not put out the eies of wisedome and charity , doe but reade what heere in all humble love , and without bitternesse of language is presented unto you . read it as in the sight and presence of god. see that my hearts desire is that you may have comfort with us , and that heereafter you may bee saved without needing repentance for this your unwise and unwarranted way . if it doe not ( except you outface light ) satisfie you ; in the maine it will burne like stubble , chaffe , and straw , in the day of christ . but if it doe , and yet ( out of a thought of what a brave thing it is to cast downe the governement of others , that you may governe your selves , and then call it christs ) and yet ( i say ) will not follow it , then that day approacheth , and i send you over to him , to doe with you according to his pleasure , yet with hearty and humble prayers for the saving of your misse-led soules . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a19569-e1570 mat. 6.21 psal . 103.4 heb. 10.19 20. col. 2.9 . heb. 10.21 act. 20.28 ioh. 14. col. 3.11 . heb. 10.22 heb. 10.23 apoc. 3.11 eph. 6. ● pet. 1.5 heb. 10.24 rom. 8. iud. 5.15 iam. 2.5 . 2 pet. 1.1 1 tim. 2.4 tit. 1.4 . iude 3. ps . 122.1 . psal . 42.4 ps . 84.10 ioel 2.28 act. 2.17 es . 2.3 . mic. 4. eph. 5 . 2● . 2 pet. 5 5 1 pet. 2.13 1 pet. 5.5 es . 49.23 mat. 18.10 zach. 8.22.23 . ex. 26 1 1 kin. 6.29 1 cor. 11.10 1 pet. 1.23 phil. 2.13 lam. 2.19 rom. 4.11 acts 7. apoc. 1.13 es . 59.21 2 cor. 3.8 9. psal . 23 ▪ 6 psal . 57.7 eph. 1.3 luk. 10.18 iosh . 6. es 59.21 ioh. 16.13 eph 4 13 gal. 2. gal. 2.14 pro. 8.34 psal 80.2 psal . 42.2 ezech. 13 22 ▪ ier , 23 , 14. object . sol. iam. 1.21 act. 10.33 psal . 5.7 es . 2 , 3. ps . 119 , 34. luke 18 , psal . 25 9. luke 1 , iam , 1. luke 1 , psal ▪ 86 , 4. zach. 8 ▪ 21 es . 42.8 ps . 110.3 zach. 5.7 ezech. 2.3 5. ezech. 3.14 . ps . 29.1 , 2 luk. 10 ▪ 16 august . ego te non deputabo inter christianos , nisi in ecclesia te videro . ps . 35.18 psal . 87.2 apoc. 3.2 . ioel. 2 , 15 16. matth. 5 2 chto . 6 13 , 2 king 11 ▪ 14. hos . 4.15 ex. 23.2 1 cor , 10 8. num. 25 9. psal . 84 pro 8.17 act , 10.33 ioh. 5 psal . 110.3 pro. 8.33 ezech. 4 10. act. 13.43 luk. 1.21 numb . 6.24 , 25 , 26 ▪ es . 52.11 . ● cor. 6.17 novatus rerum novarum sēper cupidus , arrogantiâ inflatus , episcopis male cognitus , &c. c●ipri . in cōmunione sacramentorum mali maculant bonos . quid imperatori cū ecclesia ? sacramēta sancta & efficacia quando per sanctos homines . circumcelliones . lucifer stomachabundus discessit ab eusebio : et qui se illi conjunxerūt ab ecclesia ipsi se segregarunt vituperabant episcopos , divites , ipsos appelantes . quòd in ecclesia ferrentur faeneratores & impuri . anthropomorphi●ae . matth. 13 ▪ gal. 6. 1 cor. 13. the issue of this discourse . matth. ●6 . object . sol. object . sol. act. 2. act. 10. matth. 16 object . sol. object . sol. 2 pet 1.19 1 cor. 2.5 levit. 20.24 . 1 kin. 8.53 numb . 14 2● . 35 . deut ▪ 9.6 , 7 , 8. act 19.9 . act. 26.22 23. 2 cor. 6.17 ver . 14 , 15 ▪ 16 tit. 1 , 15 , 16. 1 cor. 1 ▪ 2 4.9 , 30 ▪ 1 cor , 3.23 1 cor. 4 , 15 1 cor. 9.2 1 cor. 11.2 2 cor. 7.11 12 , 13. 1 cor. 5.1 eph. 5 . 1● 2 cor. 6 ▪ 14 , 15 , 16. act. 8.13.37 , 38. 1 cor. 3.3 1 cor. 6. 1 cor. 8. 1 cor. 10. 1 cor. 11. & 15. 1 cor. 5. 1 cor. 1.2 heb. 10.29 object . sol. eph ▪ 1.23 . ioh. 15.2 1 cor. 12 12 ▪ 1 cor. 1.30 act. 7.51 eph. 4 30 1 thes ▪ 5.19 . heb. 10 , 29 psal . 147. object . sol. gal. 3.17 rom. 6. psal . 78.10 37. luk. 1.17 ioh. 14. 1 cor. 1.30 what browne meane by a true church . act. 7.38 object . sol. luk. 3.2 . heb , 7. 1 sam. 15. 1 tim. 3.15 tit. 1.5 1 sam. 2.29.12 . ex. 32.11 . ex. 22.16 es . 1.2 , 3 es . 1.10 ▪ 23 es . 3.12.16 es . 5.8 es . 24 ● es . 1.21 22 29. 1 cor. 1.2 2 cor. 12 20.21 . apoc. 2 & 3. object . sol. ex. 18.19 deut. 31.9 28. act , 14.23 act. 2● ▪ 17 act. 21.18 23. ob●ect . sol. act. ●5 . ●● 23. sub conscientia plebis . matth. 18 19 , 20. mat. 16.19 io● . 20 , 21 22 , 23. eph. 4 ▪ 11 12. 2 cor. 5.20 . neh. 13.11 17. apoc. 2 ▪ & 3. ro 13.1 2 3. 1 pet. 2.13 14. tit. 2.1 heb. 13.8 17. 1 tim. 5 17. numb . 16 matth. 18 1 cor. 5 mar. 13.34 2 cor. 10.8 1 tim. 3.15 object . apoc. 1.6 sol. 1 ioh. 2 2 pet. 2 psal . 130.3 gal. 2.14 1 cor. 14.1 ver . 29. ver . 3. mat. 28.18 mar. 16.15.6 . object . sol. ro. 12.4 , 6 heb. 5.4 2 tim. 2 13. 1 tim. 4.13 . what a true visible church is . act. 9.31 ap. 2 , & 3 ▪ act. 14.23 . rom. 16.5 1 cor. 16.19 . tit. 1.5 . act. 15.19 act. 15. phil. 1.1 . mat. 9 36. eph. 2. rom 10. act. 8. act 13. act. 20 1 cor. 1. ● gal. 2 act. 8 matth. 22 matth. 25 mat. 13.2 3. &c. mat. 13.24 25. &c. deus nobis imperavit congregatioonem , sibi servavit separationem . august . mat. 13.47 48. &c. act. 2.41 apoc. 2.1 . matth. 5 cant. 6.13 object . sol. eph. 2.20 . ro , 3.3 , 4 rom. 9.26 ro. 10.18 col. 1 6. ex. 20. gen. 9.9 . gen. 17.7 . mat. 28. matth. 16 2 chro. 15.12.14 . neh. 9.38 mat. 28.19 act. 2.41 . 2 cor. 5.19 levit. 2.13 deut. 29 12. deut. 26 18. deut. 33.3 . & 26.17 act 2.41 act. 8.12 37.38 . mat. 28.19 1 cor. 10.16 psal . 44.17 gal. 3.27 rom. 4.11 . ezech. 16.20 . psal . 110.3 . acts 2 41 cant. 1.4 . rom. 7.4 . ex. 19.3.7.8 . iosh 4. ● , 8 2 chro. 24 2.4 7. hest . 8.17 . 2 chro. 30 violentiū non coactorum est regnum caelorum . 2 chro. 30 19.20 . 2 chro. ●3 16 2 chro. 34 32.33 . 2 chro. 15 12 neh. 9.38 & 10.29 . ez. 10.3 , 19 object . sol. rom. 13. gen. 17.7 act 8. fran. iohns artic against fr and dutch churches . ioh. 20 , 21 22 , 23 ▪ 1 cor. 14. ensem stringēdo , decreta publicādo 2 cor. 2 : 7. exod. 21.28 , 29 , 30. 1 why the bastards of christians are baptizable ? 1 cor. 1.16 . act. 12. act. 8. mat. 28. 2 an harlots fact doth not make her no christian . 3 an harlots fact doth not deprive her or her child of the right of christianity . 4 no man ought lawfully to stay bastards frō baptisme . vt regenerandi etsi nondum regenerati 1 cor. 12 , 27. 1 cor. ● . 12 deut. 23.2 gal. 4. gen. 21. object . sol. exposititij . si inter christianos nati fuerint , ex charitate habendi profilijs christianorum si non sit justa causa contrariū praesumendi . 1 cor. 6. in sensu composito . mat. 18.6 . 1 cor. 6 : 9.10 gal. 5.9.22 . 1 cor. 6. 1 tim. 5.8 eze. 18. two sorts of unbel●evers . ● in part . 2 in whole . object . rom. 4.11 . sol. mat. 28.19 . censure . rom. 11. col. 1. sol. 1 cor. 7.14 censure . eph. 2 , sanctitatem foederalem , ut qui sunt regenerandi non regenerati rom. 2. act. 2.39 . object . sol. obiect . sol. exod. 20. censure . censure . censure . censure . gen. ●7 . sol. heb. 13. censure . 1 tim. 5.8 . 2 pet. 2.19 , 20. censure . sol. act. 2. 42. 1 cor. 1 , 2. censure . sol. censure . 2 tim. 2.19 eze. 18. censure . sol. act. 8. & 9 mat. 28. censure . sol. act 18.12 , 13 , 14 , 15. 1 christ is the head of the catholike church , eph. 1.22 . col. 1.18 . iohn 1 16. col. 1 19 eph 1.22 . eph. 9.6 . 1 iohn 2. eph. 5.23 . eph 1.3 . 1 king. 1.18 . 2. christ is the head of particular churches ▪ 1 cor. 12.27 . apoc. 1. 1 tim. 3.15 . 1 cor. 11. heb. 3 6. heb. 10. 3. christ is the head of our church . 1 cor 3.10 , 11. eph. 2.20 . 1 pet. 2.7 . 1 cor. 3.10 1 cor. 1.2 . 1 pet. 2.5 1 cor. 3 9. eph. 4.11.12 . acts 2.47 . iohn 14.6 . ioh. 10.31 1 cor 3 5. rom 6.4 . 1 cor. 10.16 eph. 2.19 1 cor. 2.12 . acts 11.18 . acts 15.11 acts 2.47 acts 11.20 . to 26. acts 5. mat. 16. iohn 20. mat. 13. obiect . sol. mic 7.19 . gen. 3.15 iohn 4 7. zac. 14 20 2● . luk. 15.57 . col. 1.13 2 cor. 3 1● acts 9. 1 cor. 1.2 . rom. 11. ●● 12.15.19 . mat. 10.34 phil. 11.13 14 mat. 11.22 psal . 2. obiect . sol. 4 the headship of the king doth not hinder the headship of christ . 1 cor. 11. esa . 9.15 . 1 sam. 15 17. exod. 18.25 1 the church hath a power to governe it selfe under christ . mat. 22.23 . exod. 2.14 acts 2.41.42 . acts 14.23 . tit. 1.5 . iam. 5.14.6.8 . 1 cor. 16.1 , 2. gal 6.6 . 2 thes . 3.6 . 1 cor. 11.20 . acts 15 1. 2 ver. 10.24 28 verse 29. 1 cor. 8.8 . 1 cor 11 ▪ 4.5 , &c. ver . 33 34 1 cor. 14.26.46 . 2 kings are prime officers to advance government in churches . mat. 28. mat. 16. mat● 6 rom. ●2 . 8 1 cor , 11.28 . rom. 13.5 1 tim. 2.2 . esa . 49.23 object . sol. rom. ●3 . object . sol. num. 10.1 , 2. iosh 24. ● ▪ 18. 1 chro. 15. 2 chro. 15.14 . 2 chro. 22.3 . 2 chro 20 2 chro. 34 29 30 1 king. 15 12 , 14 , 14. 2 king. 23.2 , 3. 2 chro. 29.3 , 4 , 5. 2 chro. ● ▪ 14 , ●5 2 chro. 29 4 , & 31.4.16 , 17. 2 chro. 35 2. neh. 13.11.12 . 2 chro. 30 2 chro. 34 2 chro. 15 2 chro. 19 18. object . sol. 1 sam. 15.17 . 1 tim. 2.2 . 3. rom 13.5 . obiect . sol. obiect . sol. mar. 9.40 hest . 9. 1 cor. 11. object . sol. acts 15.28 . acts 16.3 . acts 21.81 22 , 23 , 24 ▪ 25. obiect . sol. deut. 17. exod. 12. mat. 26. iosh 5.5.6 7.9 . math. 12.3 5. 2 chro. 7.7 . 1 king. 8.64 . 2 chro. 30 2 , 3 , 17.18 ▪ &c. object . sol. object . pro. 2.20 . sol. mar. 9.40 . rom 13.5 . act. 3.2 . 1 cor. 1.2 . 1. saints by calling . 1 cor. 1.2 . gal 3. act. 1. ioh. 15.2 . heb. 10. ●9 2 renewed saints not onely matter of a visible church . 1 cor. 12. 2 cor. 12.11 . eph. 4.3 . iude 3. eph 2.20 . rom. 14.5 . 2 tim. 3.16 . eph 1.3 . eph. 4.12 , 13. 1 cor. 13 9 1 cor. 16.10 . psal . 119. a mixed company in the visible church ioh. 3.16 1 cor. 15· act 8. 1 cor. 11. mat. 22.9 . 10. 12. object . mat. ●3 . 38 sol. 1 ioh. 5. mat. 13.24 ver . 38. hos . 2.23 . luk. 13.26 , 27. mat. 7 22. mat. 24.13 . 2 thes 2.4 . apo. 18.1 , 2. 1 cor 3.3 . 1 cor. 15.12 . 1 cor. 5.1 . 1 cor. 11.21 . 1 cor. 1 12 1 cor. 5. gal. 1. gal 3. object . sol. 2 cor. 2 , 16. tit. 2.11 . ro. 6.1 . 1 tim. 2.4 gen. 18.22 . mat. 22.13 1 cor. 1● . 29 iud. 2 . 2● . mat. 13.28 mat. 22. mat. 16. iohn 20. 1 cor. 5.12 ro. 11.20 . gal. 5.24 . ioh. 15.4 . object . sol. deut. 5.27 vers . ●9 . ex. 34 27 deut. 26.17.18 object . sol. obiect . sol. 1 pet. 2.9 . 1 pet. 1.1 , 2. ps . 78.36 , 37. 2 tim. 2 ▪ 20 ▪ 21. object . sol. 1 cor 11. luk. 19.27 . object . sol. rom. 14. ma● . 13.47 , 48 , 49 object . sol. apo. 3.1 . obiect . sol. how wicked members are cut off from us . ier. 15.19 . psal . 109. eph. 5. psal . 120. eccles . 8.2 object . sol. 1 cor. 11.28 . gal. 6.5 . vers . 3. 1 sam 2.17.24 . 1 cor. 10. ioh. 6. mat. 22.9.10 . act. 8. 1 cor. 11. mat. 22.12 friend , ioh. 6.54 . ier 31. heb. 8. ex. 12. 1 cor. 14. 2 cor. 6. 2 cor. 10.8 obiect . matth. 7 matth. 15. sol. obiect . sol. object . sol. 3 of pollution of communion by wicked members . levit. 4.13.14 . &c. ezek. 22.26 . deut. 17.8 9. apoc. 2. & 3. 1 cor. 11. 2 cor. 12. apoc. 2.20 24.25.26 . ezek. 11.20.21 . ezek. 18.14.17.20 ezek. 33● gal. 5.10 . tit. 1 15. object . sol. 1 tim. 5.22 . eph 5.11 . pro. 1.10 . dan. 3.4 , 5 , 6. es . 10.1 . 1 sam. 22.18.19 . 2 sam 11.15 , 17. 2 k● 12.3 . mar ●5 . 1 kin ● 1 kin. 21.7.25 . prov. 1.11 , 12 , 13. pro. 7.18 . 1 cor. 15.33 . 2 sa. 13.5 . mar. 6. ●4 . act. 19.25 . nu. 25.3 . & 31.16 . ro. 1.32 . act ▪ 8.1 . act. 7.58 . lev. 19.17 . & 20.45 . 2 sam. 12.14 es . 5.20 . pro. 24.24 ro. 14.21 1 cor. 8.13 eph 5 11 1 cor. 6. ● obiect . sol. iud. 11. num. 16.10 . iud. 8. ● . 2 pet 2.10 . heb. 12.4 . 2 chro. 14. & 15. 2 chro. 29 & 30. & 34. ezr. 2. & 3. neh. 2. hag. 1. zech. 4. ez. 4.23.23 . object . hag. 1.4 , 6 sol. 1 sam. 2.17 , 24. object . sol. gen. 17.1 . ex. 34. ●8 . deu. 10 12. levit. 6. num. 35 33. levit. 18.21.24 , 25. es . 1.9.15 . & 38.2.10 ier. 7. es . 65.5 . luk. 18.14 tit. 1. matth. 5.23.24 . 1 cor. 11.23.28 . object . sol. 1 cor. 1● 29. numb . 19 13.20 . hag. 2.12 13. act 21.28 deut. 23.3 matth. 22 object . sol. mat. 23.16 mat. 24.3 . ioh. 11.49 luk. 4 28 , 29. lu. 23.18 mat. 11.20 21.22 . &c mat. 27.25 mar 7.9 . matth. 21.12 ▪ 13. ioh. 9.22 . matth. 5. ioh. 19.14 luk. 2 21 luk. 2.22 . luk. 2.46 luk. 3.21 ioh. 2.13 . matth ▪ 23 1 , 2 , 3 ▪ object . sol. iudg. 18. 3 ioh ▪ ● . 9 obiect . es ▪ 62 ● sol. se sti●lis conscientiae adactum , ● fecisse se pro gloria altissimi de● pati ▪ act 23 , 1● object . sol. object . sol. nu. 16.3 . object . sol. eph. 1. 1 cor. 12 ▪ ex. 1. ●8 . ro. 12.6 , 8. 1 tim. 4.14 . & 5 ●● act ▪ 14.23 act. 20.17 . act. 21 ▪ ●8 23. act. 15 . 2● , 23. ne. 13.11 apoc. 2 ▪ 1. & 12.18 ▪ apoc. 3.1 . ro. 13 , 21. tit. 3.1 . act. 20 28 heb. 13 ▪ 17 1 pet. 2. apoc. 1.6 . ro. 6.12 . object . math. 18.15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. mat. 28.20 . matth. 18. sol. heb. 6 1. 1 tim , 1.5 . eph. 4.1 . mat. 16.24 rom. 6.12 act. 2.42 . phil. 3. obiect . sol. matth. 18. matth. 18 expoūded . mat. 16.19 ioh. 20.23 1 cor. 5. 1 tim. 2 tim. col. 3.13 . mat. 18.7 . ma. 18. av . 8 ad v. 15. mat. 18.15 ad finem . luk. 19.2 . mat. 9 9. act. 25.11 act. 22 28 mat. 18.15 . ver . 16. deu. 19. ●5 heb. 10.28 mat. 18.17 . 1 tim 1.8 allusive . 1 cor. 6.1.6 . ro. 9.13 . ioh. 16. 1 cor. 6 ▪ 2. 1 tim. ● . 1 , 2. gal. 5 15. ro. 16.18 . 1 thes . 4. ro. 13.1 , 4. why the former sense is true . mat. 18.21 vers . 35. vers . 15. vers . 17. 1 cor. 5.11 . luk. 19. luk. 3.12.13 . obiect . sol. object . sol. act ▪ 19.32.39.41 . object . sol. 2 pet. 2.4 . jude 6. matth. 22. mat. 16 19 joh. 20.23 matth. 5.25 , 26. obiect . sol. matth. ●8 . 19 . quid hoc si●● velit series ipsa loci declarat . siqui correptus est animo indoluerit & in idem propositum venerit cum eo ● quo corripiaetur dabitur ei de clementissimo deo ven●a &c. object . mat. 18 20 sol. object . 1 cor. 1.5 sol. 1 cor 5. object ▪ 1 cor. ● ▪ sol. 1 cor. 5.4 . ioh. 20. apoc. 2 ▪ & 3. 1 cor. 5.1 . ver ▪ 2. that he might be 〈◊〉 away from them , no● cast out 〈◊〉 themselv● . vers . 4. vers ▪ 13 : vers . 11. object . sol. matth. 22. object . 1 cor ▪ ● . 6 . 1 cor. 6.2 . 1 cor. 5.3 , 4. 1 their name . object . sol. act. 20.28 es . 56.10 . matth. 13. apoc ▪ 2 ▪ & ● 2 tim. & tit. post sc . aernis . 1 cor. 6.4 . ro 15.8 . matth. 20.28 . 1 pet. 2.25 . heb. 3.1 . 1 pet. 5.1 . 3 ioh. 1. 2 cor. 8.23 . phil. 2.25 apoc. 1. & 2. & 3. object . 2 their degree . sol. 1 cor ▪ 12 . 2● . ephes ▪ ● 1 tim 3 . 1● . 3. their jurisdiction ob ▪ sol. 1 tim. 3.15 . 1 tim. 6.14 . 1. ordination . t it 1.5 . 1 tim. 5.22 object . sol. act. 16.2.3 . 1 tim. 4.14 . object . 2 tim 4.5 . sol. 1 cor. 16.10 . object . sol. 2. redressing things amisse ▪ tit. 1.5 . 1 tim. 1.3 1 tim. 5.19 . tit. 1.11 . obiect . act. 4.17.18 , 19 , 20. sol. act 9. 1 tim. 5.24 . object . sol. tit. 1.5 . object sol. object . 1 pet. 5. ● ▪ mat. 20.25 , 26 , 27. sol. ro. 13.1 . &c. 1 pet 2.13 14 , 17 , &c. ioh. 13.13 1 cor 12.28 . ezek. 34.4 . object . sol. object . sol. 1 tim. 5.17 . tit. 1.9 1 thes . 5.11 , 13. 1 tim. 3.1 4. act ▪ 14 object . sol. eph. ● . 11 . 1 cor. 12. ● mat 9 ●● act 1● . ●● 1 tim. 6 ● eph. 4.11 . 2 cor. 6.4 ro. 15.8 . act. 6. object . 1 tim. 3.13 act. 6.3 . act. 6.6 . act. 7. act. 8.35 , 38. 1 tim. 3.13 object . sol. ex. 22.10.11 , 12. 1 king. 8.31 . 1 king. ●8 . 10 . gen. 25.33 . 1 kin. 2.8.43 , 44. gal. 2.4 . 2 t●m ▪ 3.6 iude 4. ● tim. 2 . 1● . object . sol. 1 cor. 5. object . sol. object . sol. indulgences . 2 cor. 2.6 , 7 , 8 , 10 object . sol. purse penances . ex. 21 ▪ 29 , 30. obiect . sol. 1 cor. 6.2 . gal. 6. jude . nu. 16.10 . 2 pet. 2. object . gal. 5. iob. 42. object . sol. object . sol. 1 cor. 4. ●1 . the greatnesse of the sin of separation jud. 5. obiect . sol. ro. 2.8 , 9. 1 cor. 6.9 , 10. ob. sol. hos . 4. ● cor. 14.3 . rom. 10. matth. 28. 1 tim. 4.16.13 . 1 tim. 3 7. 1 tim. 2.2 . 1 tim. 3.2 . 2 tim. 3.16 . 1 tim. 3.2 1 pet. 5.2 . joh. 21.15 , 16 , 17. joh. 10. act. 1.23 . act. 6.6 . 1 tim 3.10 . 1 tim. 4.14 . act 6.6 . act. 13.3 . tit. 1.5 . 1 tim. 3. ● . 1 cor. 1● . ●● exod. 4. jer. 1.6 . es . 6. how the m●nistery may be desired . 1 tim. 6. 1 tim. 4.16 . 1 tim. 3.1 . joh. 21.15 . act. 20.28 1 pet. 5.1 , 2. 2 tim 4.2 matt. 28.20 . 2 tim 4.7 , 8. dan 12.3 2 cor. 12.15 . object . sol. 2 sam , 18.19 . ad finē . 1 tim ● . 2● object . sol. eph. 4. marks o● true teachers . ro. 6.16 ioh. 8.34 ioh. 15.19 ier. 23.22 . 1 tim. 4.6 ioh ▪ 16.22 1 cor. 3. 1 cor. 13. phil. 3.15 , 16. ioh. 10.2.7 vers . 3. vers . 3. pro. 27.23 mat. 13.52 vers . 3. psa . 92.14 j●hn 5. jo● . 10 4. es . 4● . 4 . jer. 6.29 . jer. 23. ●2 . ro. 1 ▪ 16. 1 cor. 4 : 15. object . sol. jer. 23.29 . object . sol. luk. ● . 17 . luk. 22.32 . jer. 31.18 . es . 10.21 . object . joh. 4. 1 pet. 3.1 . act. 18. ephes . 4.11.12 . act. 26.18 . object . sol. 2 king. ● . 23 object . sol. tit. 1.5 . object . sol. apoc. 1 ▪ ● ep● . 1. phil. ● . col. 1 ▪ ro. 15.16 . es . 66.21 . object . sol. ex 28 . 1● ex. 40.16 1 chro. 23.1 , 2 , 3 , &c. 1 kin 2.27 2 chro ▪ 8.14 . 2 chro , ●9 24. act. ● , 15. &c. act. 6.2 . act. 2.38 . act. 10.44 obiect . sol. eph. 47. 1 tim. 3. 1 sa. 2.24 . joh. 3.22 . joh. 4.2 . joh. 6.70 . joh. 3.22.24 . mat. 4.12.17 . act. 10.23 . vers . 48. 1 cor. 12.28 . object . sol. 1 cor ● . ● ▪ vers . 8 , 9.10 ▪ 1● . 1 tim. ● . 17 ▪ 18. gal. 6.6 . object . sol. col. 2.17 es . 1. mal 3.9 matth. 23 object . sol. 1 cor. 9.14 heb. 7.6 , 7 , 8 ▪ 9. 2 cor 5 20 2 cor. 3. object . ioh. 4. sol. ob●ect . heb. 3● ▪ sol. ioh. 14. heb. 10. two sorts of ceremonies . deut. 4.2 . 1 sam. 8.5 deu. 17.14 1 kin. 8.63 ver ▪ 65. ver . 22. deut. 17. josh . 24 ▪ 26. 2 ch. 15.14 nehe. 9. ult . & 10 ▪ 11. hest . 9. 1 cor. 14 26.40 . object . sol. tit. 1.5 . rom. 14.3.5 , act. 15. eph 4 3 ▪ 5 col. 2.5 . num. 36 1 cor. 10 ▪ 23. 1 cor. 8.13 2 sam. ●4 . 1 cor. 6. ● ▪ eph. 3.14 gen. 14.22 . object . sol. 1 cor. 14.26 . object . sol. gen. 24. ex. 17.15 iosh . ●2 . 24 , to 35. 1 sam. joh. 2. luk. 4.17 , 20. 1 cor , 11. 1 cor. 16.20 . 2 pet. 2.11 jude . 1 cor. 14. mar. 9 40. object . sol. object ▪ sol. pro. 25 ▪ 4 1 cor. 8. & 10. 1 kin. 19. ex. 23.24 . ezek. 18.6 ps 44.20 . ex. 32.6.19 . am. 2.8 . obiect . ioh. 4. sol. object . sol. object . sol. h●s . 14.2 . matth. 6. luk. 11 ▪ 2. object . zach. 12. ●0 . luk. 11. ● . a double power of prayer . rom. 8. object . sol. eph. 6. 1 tim. 2. psal . 14. psal . 47. 1 cor. 14. lu. 22.41 lom 3. ps . 123 1. ps . 35.10 . psal . 45. object . sol. object . sol. num. 21.5 ro. 8.26 , 27. object . sol. why se● formes are prescribed ministers ? ob. 2 pet. 2. object . ezek. 18.21 , 22. sol. object . sol. neh. 8 , 6. 1 cor. 14.16 . object . sol. prov. 28. matth. 16. joh. 20 ▪ act. 17. of the lit●y . ob. sol. ob. sol. luk. 11. object . sol. object . sol. 1 sam. 1. object . sol. es . 38.1 . matth. 25 〈◊〉 ▪ 20. psal . 109.13 , 14. ob ▪ joh. 17. sol. 1 tim. 2 1 ps . 67.3 . luk. 23. 1 joh. 5. psal 141. as some translate . gal. 6.2 . 1 joh 5 , 16 object . sol. object . sol. ex. 19. eph. 4 1. object . sol. object . sol. ex. 20. ob. sol. 2 thes . 2.4 . mar 9.4 . 1 cor , 6. rom. 13.5 1 cor. 11. es . 29.13 . mat. 15.9 . d●ut . 4 2 : & 12.32 . col. 2 ▪ object . sol. deu. 27.12 1 king. 8.14.55 . neh. 8.5 . object . sol. object . sol. 1 cor. 10. object . sol. ob. sol. psal . 95.5 . ps 149.3 . ps . 150.4 . psal . 47.1 . 2. sam. 17. 1 king. 1.47 . the crosse in baptisme . object . sol. act. 1● . how wee use the signe of the crosse ? 1 cor. 16.20 . 1 pet. 5.14 object . sol. levit. 14. obiect . responses sol. act. 8. 1 sam. 20.42 . rom. 4.11 ● pet. 3.21 . heb. 10.25 2 pet. 3. 1 consider one another . eccles . 9. 1 cor. 16. psal . 143· eph. 6. matth. 7. rom. 11. 2 thes . 3.10 , matth. 26. gen 38. gal. 6.1 . 1 cor. 4. ult . ier. 23. rom. 11. 1 john 5.21 . luke 22. 2 exhort one another . pro. 13.10 . iam. 1.21 jam. 3. mat. 20. eph. 1. john 7. eccles . 3. eccles . 11. 1 sam. 25. luk. 19. ex. 32. gal. 1 ▪ 6. apo. 2.4 . mat. 13.9 . 1 thes . ● . 11 . prov. 6. jam , 4. 2 sam. 24.10 . 2 sam. 16.7 , 8. heb. 1● . ex. ● . prov. ● . 3 the day approacheth . luk 19.42 eccles 12. 2 cor. 5.11 . 2 pet. 3.